Broken Adoptions, Bold Advocacy with Dawn J. Post

WEBVTT
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I think that there's some really incredible adoption
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and trauma -informed therapists that understand
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the dynamics of adoption. Kids when they become
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adolescents are going to be a little bit crazy
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anyway, given all those hormones and everything
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else. And, you know, is there a way of balancing
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what's happening in terms of professional assistance
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or interventions beyond sending them away? Welcome
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to the Open Adoption Project. This is episode
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122. We're the Nelsons and I am Shaun. Today in
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this episode, Lanette has an interview with Dawn
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J. Post. She is based in New York City and she
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is a children's rights attorney. And this episode
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takes a deep dive into a challenging part of
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adoption. This conversation with Lanette and
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Dawn does have a couple themes, including child
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abuse and neglect that might be triggering. Maybe
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you may want to skip this episode. As a podcast,
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we try to share many perspectives and angles
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from the adoption community. And this conversation
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with Dawn does touch on some parts of adoption
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that unfortunately are happening in our country
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and in the world that we live in and I hope that
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as you take a listen to this conversation and
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hear of Dawn's experiences and the things that
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she's advocating for and the experiences of others
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that she is relating that you might see in your
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sphere how you might better support the adoptees
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that you know that you might interact with. And
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while the stories and experiences that Dawn references
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are more on an extreme end, I do believe that
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there's something that we can all learn from
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this conversation. So we'll go ahead and cut
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to that conversation with Dawn and Lanette and
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just want to thank her so much for taking some
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of her time to share about her experiences and
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what she's trying to do and accomplish. We are
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here on the podcast with Dawn J. Post. Dawn,
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welcome. We're so happy to have you here. Thank
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you so much for having me. Thank you. To start
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off, can you tell us about yourself? So I'm a
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children's rights attorney that's been based
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in New York City for a few decades, and I've
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primarily worked in the field of child welfare
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and foster care. And so I, over a decade ago,
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began really looking at the issue of what I call
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broken adoptions, youth who were no longer living
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with their adoptive parent for a variety of reasons.
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And if they returned to foster care, if they
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were homeless. And I began running a study and
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publishing and speaking about this issue and
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really trying to engage stakeholders to not think
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solely about making adoptions happen faster.
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but to make adoptions better and really ensure
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that the connection is there, the unconditional
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commitment, and that any supports and services
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that can be put into place. And so that work
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has developed into what I'm doing now. That's
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amazing. That sounds like really important work.
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Can you tell me how you got here? What brought
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you to this work? So well, way back when or now?
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whatever you want to share. I would love to know
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both if you're up for it. So actually, I decided
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I was going to be a lawyer for children when
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I was 10. I had heard of a really horrific murder
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in my state. And I decided that I apparently
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was reading a lot of Perry Mason at the time
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was living in the middle of nowhere Maine and
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no TV. And so I decided that I if that child
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had a lawyer that that could outcome might have
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been different. So I fast -tracked to go to law
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school, in fact, dropping out of high school
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when I was 16 to get to college and to fast -track
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myself. And so that's what led me ultimately
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to my career path, which I do not regret at all,
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even though it's a very difficult career path.
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That's amazing. Wow. And so from a young age,
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you've felt connected to this cause and to helping.
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Absolutely, 100%. And Maine doesn't even have
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attorneys for children. So I didn't even realize
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what that might look like. And it's a very different
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state to state. Even now, I think there's about
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26 states that don't have attorneys for children.
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And I think it's incredibly important for youth
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to have a voice on what's happening in their
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lives. And you have a lot of adults who... don't
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know what's going on with that child and who
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better to speak about it than that child. And
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a lawyer can help facilitate that. You also work
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with an organization that you started. Themis
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People on Advocacy. And I titled it Themis in
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the heat of the moment while I was working a
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complicated case because Themis stands for the
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goddess of justice. And so that's where that
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came from. But in 2024, March of last year, I
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was invited to Jamaica to be able to assist with
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three abandoned adoptees who had been removed
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from what some people would call the so -called
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troubled teen industry, a facility. And they
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had actually been brought into foster care in
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Jamaica. And their adoptive parents allegedly
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were not planning for their return to the US.
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And so I flew down on my dime to be able to try
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to help facilitate and engage state and county
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systems. and the federal government and how to
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return these children. And I knew it would be
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difficult because bureaucracies, interstate issues
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can be very, very complicated if anyone's ever
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heard of the ICPC, which I'm sure people on here
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might've, but this was a whole nother layer of
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complicated issues in terms of really the states
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and counties said, you know, not our problem
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outside of our jurisdiction. And so, When I left
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after three weeks, they actually were placed
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in the permanent custody of Jamaica because they
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had been left in the foster care system for over
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60 days. And these were three adoptees of color
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from three different states. And so while I was
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in Jamaica, I learned of another facility that
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allegedly had 160 to 180 adoptees from the United
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States. And I was shocked. I've always considered
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the troubled teen industry to be a bit removed
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from the work that I do, and particularly because
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people might think that it's kind of the middle
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of the rich white kids that might be sent away
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for issues is really somewhat the idea I had.
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And I had no idea the number of adoptees that
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were actually being placed there, and not only
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being placed, but warehoused and abandoned until
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they were 18. And this was a mix of international
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and domestic adoptions. And so while I was in
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Jamaica, I filed the paperwork to start Themis
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Youth Law and Advocacy. unfunded, unfortunately,
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because I felt that the need was just so great
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and immediate that I felt that I had to do it
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at that point. And I've been working with survivors
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from that particular program and also other programs
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and continuing the work really, which is about
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broken adoptions, but now includes the space
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of youth being abandoned in trouble team facilities.
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Wow. And so adoptive parents or former adoptive
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parents will abandon the children that they adopted.
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And are there repercussions for these adults?
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They're not. And in fact, I was really shocked
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that for the three abandoned adoptees in Jamaica
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that I originally worked with, because you couldn't
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have a clearer case of abandoned men. They were
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left in the care of Jamaica's foster care system
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for over 60 days. And their adoptive parents
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didn't want them back. And then they were placed
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in the permanent custody of Jamaica. I don't
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think there's any way of getting around that.
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And so I think adoptive parents sometimes get
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a pass. And maybe people on this podcast will
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disagree with me. But I've often seen there's
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a double standard when it comes to biological
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parents and with adoptive parents. And I think
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that that's just something we have to recognize
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and be aware of and acknowledge. And maybe that's
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what's happening in this instance. Maybe there
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was racial biases around this as well. And also
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I talked about the jurisdictional issue, but
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you couldn't have clear cases in my mind of abandonment.
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And so one of the things that I hope to do in
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the next year or so, and I've already begun engaging
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stakeholders and policymakers in DC, is around
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making sure that there's accountability. Because
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the youth that I'm working with and those three
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originally, what they talk a lot about is how
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can they get away with this? Why am I the one
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suffering and there's no accountability for what
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they did? And so I think that from a justice
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perspective, from their perspective, you know,
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accountability is really important. And I feel
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like we need to see more of that in our civil
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and criminal systems. Absolutely. That is shocking.
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Such a wild thing. Have you seen what happened
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after these children, these adoptees are abandoned?
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What is next for them? So in my earlier years
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when I was really digging into this, and so to
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give you an example just what the numbers might
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look like, and these numbers are about a decade
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old, but one law firm here in New York, they
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did a manual count of their caseload to find
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out how many kids had been returned that had
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been adopted. It was 200 out of a thousand clients.
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That was one fifth of their caseload. And the
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adoption subsidy was continuing to be paid to
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those adoptive parents. And so we worked a lot
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on those issues here in New York City. We just
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passed legislation about the adoption subsidy.
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And in fact, California just passed legislation
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as well that prohibits now the placement of youth
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and out of state residential care with the use
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of what's called AAP funds, Adoption Assistance
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Program funds. Because we were seeing a bit of
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double dipping where adoptive parents were getting
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paid the subsidy. in one instance in the news
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article that just came out today up to $53 ,000
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while their child was in residential care paid
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for by the county. And California has laws prohibiting
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foster children from being placed there. So why
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would we be placing vulnerable adoptees there?
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And so that's a loophole that was just closed.
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But in terms of what I'm seeing is no contact
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with their adoptive families. When they've been
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in these facilities for years, they're being
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dumped back into the US coming back from Jamaica
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and often they're very vulnerable, no education,
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no skills, no ability to navigate. And I give
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you a really glaring example, a young lady that
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I've been working with who came out of that program
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and was dumped back in Florida. She said, she
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tried to get a retail job and she did not know
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what change was or how to count the change and
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so because she had been in this residential for
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five years completely warehoused and she had
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been an international adoptee that had been dumped
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fairly quickly and so the fact that she had to
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study at night just to learn how to count change
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to be able to get that job is really Really significant
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and and another and and she's actually done incredibly
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well, but that was all because of her own work
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Without really any help from anyone else She's
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been able she self -studied for three years for
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the GED and she just got her driver's license
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at 21 But she's rare. She's rare because most
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of the youth that I'm seeing are in pretty desperate
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Circumstances where they've been trafficked where
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they're homeless where they are You know food
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insecure if they're not homeless and really struggling
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to adapt to life back in the united states when
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they've been institutionalized for so years in
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another country. And so for them it's incredibly
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complicated and so i've really been trying to
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raise awareness to the states and federal government
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around this. To be able to. Try to create solutions
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is this an issue where we don't have enough post
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adoption support. Is this an issue of financial,
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you know, and that there there's not enough money
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there. So and because it's cheaper in another
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country that they're warehousing them in another
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country or. because I know of at least three
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abandoned adoptees placed in this facility where
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they were left there at seven and they're almost
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17. That's a decade without contact with their
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adoptive parents who clearly just wanted to wash
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their hands of them. They're being warehoused
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till they're 18 and then placed in what might
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be very desperate circumstances at that age.
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Here in New York, what I often see is just couch
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hopping, really a lot of instability and And
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oftentimes I'm hearing from adoptive parents
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that, well, it's behavioral issues, emotional
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issues for the international adoptees. What I've
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heard from them about their experience was I
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didn't love them fast enough. They expected me
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to just come here and attach and just, you know,
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be grateful. And so we have to be really cautious
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around some of that. And that's what I'm afraid
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is driving some of this abandonment. Wow. And
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so, like a conditional kind of love where if
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you aren't attaching, the repercussion is like
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you're out. That's right. And how can we expect
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an international adoptee who may have already
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had layers of trauma beyond... you know the separation
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from their family perhaps life in an orphanage
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abuse and neglect that they may have had there
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and then when they come to the united states
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why wouldn't they have difficulty adapting one
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young person i spoke to said that they were punished
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for food hoarding. They came from an orphanage
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where it was, you know, fend for yourself and
00:15:14.240 --> 00:15:17.519
grab that food, you know, uh, out of the tray.
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And so of course they were food hoarding, but
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rather than help treat that they were punished
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for that. And it was seen as a issue of disobedience
00:15:28.799 --> 00:15:33.360
rather than just a natural trauma response. And
00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:35.620
I have found with the adoptees that I'm working
00:15:35.620 --> 00:15:38.519
with is as often they're just normal adolescents.
00:15:39.070 --> 00:15:41.289
But somehow that behavior that you would accept
00:15:41.289 --> 00:15:44.710
in a bio child gets pathologized into something
00:15:44.710 --> 00:15:50.029
else. And they end up going to these places that
00:15:50.029 --> 00:15:52.190
may not be meeting their needs and where they
00:15:52.190 --> 00:15:54.990
may actually be experiencing really significant
00:15:54.990 --> 00:15:58.049
abuse and neglect. That was so heartbreaking.
00:15:58.789 --> 00:16:01.990
And especially here on the podcast, we talk a
00:16:01.990 --> 00:16:04.570
lot about ethical adoptions, how we can break
00:16:04.570 --> 00:16:09.240
different stereotypes. change mentalities that
00:16:09.240 --> 00:16:11.620
see adoptees as lesser, but then hearing that
00:16:11.620 --> 00:16:13.440
things like this are happening so prevalently
00:16:13.440 --> 00:16:16.320
is so concerning because that's living proof
00:16:16.320 --> 00:16:20.279
that it's still the mindset of many. No, and
00:16:20.279 --> 00:16:23.779
ethical adoption is so important in any adoption
00:16:23.779 --> 00:16:26.860
conversation because we're learning about obviously
00:16:26.860 --> 00:16:29.220
in the international or inter -country arena.
00:16:29.610 --> 00:16:32.750
where there have been unethical practices in
00:16:32.750 --> 00:16:37.250
terms of sale of children. And also here when
00:16:37.250 --> 00:16:40.049
we look at it domestically, we oftentimes are
00:16:40.049 --> 00:16:43.330
ignoring the family ties, which can be incredibly
00:16:43.330 --> 00:16:47.350
significant to a child. Even name changes. It's
00:16:47.350 --> 00:16:49.470
shocking to me, particularly with children of
00:16:49.470 --> 00:16:53.059
color, to see adoptive parents change. the name
00:16:53.059 --> 00:16:56.700
at eight and nine, where they have a pretty good
00:16:56.700 --> 00:16:59.000
sense of their own identity at that point, but
00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:02.340
their names get changed to white in them. And
00:17:02.340 --> 00:17:05.859
that's really difficult on young people. And
00:17:05.859 --> 00:17:08.960
then also, I've done a lot of work around what
00:17:08.960 --> 00:17:11.960
I call post -adoption sibling visitation and
00:17:11.960 --> 00:17:15.500
how those connections get lost, let alone with
00:17:15.630 --> 00:17:19.730
biological parents. And so some of the more successful
00:17:19.730 --> 00:17:22.190
adoptions that I've encountered, and I'm not
00:17:22.190 --> 00:17:25.130
anti adoption by any means, I feel that there's
00:17:25.130 --> 00:17:28.349
a perhaps a better way of doing it. And the cases
00:17:28.349 --> 00:17:30.809
I'm seeing are obviously the worst of the worst.
00:17:31.329 --> 00:17:35.369
But I've seen a lot of triad or in terms of open
00:17:35.369 --> 00:17:38.910
adoption practices that have been really supportive
00:17:38.910 --> 00:17:41.349
of the emotional health of the child and the
00:17:41.349 --> 00:17:43.890
physical health of that child where the child
00:17:43.890 --> 00:17:46.950
becomes the centerpiece. And I would also say,
00:17:47.029 --> 00:17:49.390
and certainly I'm not a therapist, I'm an attorney,
00:17:49.529 --> 00:17:53.349
but I think it's important to recognize that
00:17:53.349 --> 00:17:56.049
oftentimes blame is put solely on the adopted
00:17:56.049 --> 00:17:58.869
child and people aren't looking at themselves
00:17:58.869 --> 00:18:02.289
to say, how am I reacting? Could I be adapting
00:18:02.289 --> 00:18:04.410
in a different way? Could I be handling this
00:18:04.410 --> 00:18:07.569
in a different way? Rather, it's automatic that
00:18:07.569 --> 00:18:10.450
people are blaming the adopted child and saying
00:18:10.450 --> 00:18:13.210
that it's their issue or their behavioral issue
00:18:13.210 --> 00:18:17.430
that is ruining the family that ends up resulting
00:18:17.430 --> 00:18:20.730
in them displaced. As we're thinking about this,
00:18:21.109 --> 00:18:24.549
I keep going back to what can we do? And I love
00:18:24.549 --> 00:18:27.309
that you are advocating here and doing so much.
00:18:27.690 --> 00:18:32.799
Do you have any thoughts on how we could implement
00:18:32.799 --> 00:18:37.759
better screening processes or education for prospective
00:18:37.759 --> 00:18:41.420
adopted parents to hopefully avoid this. You
00:18:41.420 --> 00:18:43.960
know, education is one of the key points. I know
00:18:43.960 --> 00:18:46.759
that in foster care, there are many states that
00:18:46.759 --> 00:18:49.579
you only get the original map training or foster
00:18:49.579 --> 00:18:52.309
parent training. at the very beginning. So it's
00:18:52.309 --> 00:18:55.930
been years and there's no follow -up, like an
00:18:55.930 --> 00:18:58.250
attorney may have to do what's called CLEs. There's
00:18:58.250 --> 00:19:02.170
no requirement to be able to keep up your license
00:19:02.170 --> 00:19:04.970
in many states. And then when they adopt, there's
00:19:04.970 --> 00:19:07.130
no real training around that. They may just be
00:19:07.130 --> 00:19:09.470
relying on their home study and the fact that
00:19:09.470 --> 00:19:11.789
they went through a foster care training years
00:19:11.789 --> 00:19:14.990
ago. And so particularly for different generations
00:19:14.990 --> 00:19:18.819
of adoptive parents, what I've seen is a lack
00:19:18.819 --> 00:19:22.460
of awareness around what they can expect in the
00:19:22.460 --> 00:19:24.960
teenage years. And that's, you know, and because
00:19:24.960 --> 00:19:28.140
when I see them breaking is in those pre -teen,
00:19:28.240 --> 00:19:31.940
teen years, right around 13. And then there,
00:19:31.960 --> 00:19:35.059
you know, you have regular adolescent development
00:19:35.059 --> 00:19:39.779
and, and so I think training around trauma. and
00:19:39.779 --> 00:19:43.779
around just normal adolescent behavior and development,
00:19:43.819 --> 00:19:47.539
and also what to expect in adoption when they
00:19:47.539 --> 00:19:50.019
start looking, you know, in their own identity.
00:19:50.119 --> 00:19:52.220
Maybe they were adopted very young, but now they
00:19:52.220 --> 00:19:54.880
want to know themselves. And I think there could
00:19:54.880 --> 00:19:58.099
be a lot more training around these issues, but
00:19:58.099 --> 00:20:00.619
it's also a bit shocking to me that I've met
00:20:00.619 --> 00:20:04.259
adoptive parents who had no idea what their child's
00:20:04.259 --> 00:20:08.369
diagnoses were or therapeutic plan. and then
00:20:08.369 --> 00:20:11.349
seem shocked, you know, a year later and say,
00:20:11.569 --> 00:20:14.690
well, well, and when I asked, well, how do you,
00:20:14.769 --> 00:20:18.089
you were getting a subsidy and a special or an
00:20:18.089 --> 00:20:20.609
exceptional rate because this is a special needs
00:20:20.609 --> 00:20:23.630
child. What do you think that was for? And they
00:20:23.630 --> 00:20:27.490
can't answer. So are we adopting for the right
00:20:27.490 --> 00:20:29.990
reasons? Is there unconditional commitment? And
00:20:29.990 --> 00:20:31.890
so I've actually, some of the recommendations
00:20:31.890 --> 00:20:35.579
I've had is, you know, Can we do a better matching
00:20:35.579 --> 00:20:38.759
process? Can we, rather than just finding a bed,
00:20:39.240 --> 00:20:44.099
particularly at a foster, and can we, if there
00:20:44.099 --> 00:20:47.500
are psychiatric issues and we see a child's been
00:20:47.500 --> 00:20:49.819
hospitalized, can we do a better assessment to
00:20:49.819 --> 00:20:51.680
make sure the adoptive parent can meet their
00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:54.720
needs? Or if they previously put in a notice,
00:20:55.160 --> 00:20:57.940
How can we evaluate them to make sure that that
00:20:57.940 --> 00:21:00.819
commitment and that care is there? And then inter
00:21:00.819 --> 00:21:05.579
-country adoptions, I think that that's a very,
00:21:05.619 --> 00:21:09.220
very different issue in terms of licensing and
00:21:09.220 --> 00:21:12.740
how they are able to adopt and what happens with
00:21:12.740 --> 00:21:17.200
those approvals. And I think that there's really
00:21:17.200 --> 00:21:22.039
just a lack of oversight around that, which has
00:21:22.039 --> 00:21:27.750
resulted in children who've been adopted even
00:21:27.750 --> 00:21:31.329
kidnapped and adopted and taken from their families
00:21:31.329 --> 00:21:33.990
and then being re -traumatized and re -abused
00:21:33.990 --> 00:21:37.150
here and it used to be called re -homing that
00:21:37.150 --> 00:21:40.509
came out after Megan Toohey did her article in
00:21:40.509 --> 00:21:44.710
2013 I think and you know that's a very kind
00:21:44.710 --> 00:21:47.289
of cute way of saying it's almost like a pet
00:21:47.289 --> 00:21:52.809
but There needs to be more law around this, that
00:21:52.809 --> 00:21:55.190
you shouldn't be able to just give up an adopted
00:21:55.190 --> 00:22:01.309
child with a guardianship form that isn't court
00:22:01.309 --> 00:22:04.210
approved, that there aren't home studies, that
00:22:04.210 --> 00:22:07.269
there isn't official requirements around there,
00:22:07.369 --> 00:22:12.490
whether it's domestic or foreign adoptions. You've
00:22:12.490 --> 00:22:16.170
talked about this first case that you found with
00:22:16.170 --> 00:22:23.700
the three Well, one was a domestic from Chicago,
00:22:24.359 --> 00:22:27.660
and two were international in that they were
00:22:27.660 --> 00:22:30.819
Ethiopian and Haitian. None were from Jamaica.
00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:36.339
These were all US adoptees. They were from the
00:22:36.339 --> 00:22:39.740
states of Michigan, Kentucky, and Illinois. And
00:22:39.740 --> 00:22:42.920
so two were inner country and one was domestic.
00:22:43.880 --> 00:22:47.019
In my investigation of this other facility, which
00:22:47.019 --> 00:22:49.500
has connections to a facility that was closed
00:22:49.500 --> 00:22:51.700
in the US for the torture of children, which
00:22:51.700 --> 00:22:55.579
is incredibly concerning. And unfortunately,
00:22:56.740 --> 00:22:59.880
there are adoptive parents who who seem to ignore
00:22:59.880 --> 00:23:03.140
some of those red flags and warning signs. And
00:23:03.140 --> 00:23:05.519
as I said, have left their kids there for up
00:23:05.519 --> 00:23:09.339
to a decade, where the children are now taking
00:23:09.339 --> 00:23:14.460
the names of staff there. So These were all American
00:23:14.460 --> 00:23:16.799
children. I really need to emphasize that because
00:23:16.799 --> 00:23:19.559
it seems strange. Why are they entering foster
00:23:19.559 --> 00:23:22.220
care in another country, which is why it was
00:23:22.220 --> 00:23:24.839
so shocking that there wasn't more action taken
00:23:24.839 --> 00:23:27.640
around their abandonment. This is somehow legal.
00:23:28.059 --> 00:23:31.019
Are these adopted parents? I feel like I shouldn't
00:23:31.019 --> 00:23:33.480
be saying parents. Are these adults who are sending
00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:36.180
these children to these places, are they making
00:23:36.180 --> 00:23:38.180
any sort of payments? Is there any kind of change?
00:23:38.180 --> 00:23:41.299
They are paying. They are paying. And so for
00:23:41.299 --> 00:23:44.779
a domestic adopt a parent they more than likely
00:23:44.779 --> 00:23:48.079
are receiving a subsidy i know that here in new
00:23:48.079 --> 00:23:50.380
york city the exceptional rate you can get over
00:23:50.380 --> 00:23:52.759
four thousand dollars a month so it's possible
00:23:52.759 --> 00:23:56.579
that they're actually getting more from the subsidy
00:23:56.579 --> 00:23:59.000
and then they're paying much cheaper because
00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:01.480
it's jamaica where it's unlicensed unregulated
00:24:01.480 --> 00:24:05.089
and there's no oversight and so they're they're
00:24:05.089 --> 00:24:07.809
really just warehousing them. Some might be wealthy
00:24:07.809 --> 00:24:10.250
and so they are independently able to do it.
00:24:10.430 --> 00:24:13.069
However, one of the kids, not an adoptee, but
00:24:13.069 --> 00:24:16.390
another kid that was there, they were placed
00:24:16.390 --> 00:24:19.690
there with educational funds. And so special
00:24:19.690 --> 00:24:23.890
education funding of about $8 ,000 a month was
00:24:23.890 --> 00:24:28.650
being used to place them in this abusive facility
00:24:28.650 --> 00:24:31.650
where Frank, and this is the original case I
00:24:31.650 --> 00:24:35.369
went down. to Jamaica for where they were literally
00:24:35.369 --> 00:24:38.349
tortured, where they were water boarded. And
00:24:38.349 --> 00:24:42.410
so I see system involvement in most of the children's
00:24:42.410 --> 00:24:45.509
cases, whether it's juvenile, whether it's an
00:24:45.509 --> 00:24:47.809
open abuse or neglect case, and then they send
00:24:47.809 --> 00:24:51.450
the child away or special education. And if we
00:24:51.450 --> 00:24:53.789
are also using state dollars around that, that
00:24:53.789 --> 00:24:57.930
is incredibly concerning. Absolutely. Wow. What
00:24:57.930 --> 00:25:01.720
you're seeing is that This is an increasing pattern
00:25:01.720 --> 00:25:03.900
or is this a pattern that's been happening for
00:25:03.900 --> 00:25:08.019
years and it's been happening for years and unfortunately,
00:25:08.119 --> 00:25:10.160
no one wants to have the conversation and this
00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:13.640
is what I Talking about in the beginning when
00:25:13.640 --> 00:25:16.740
I began looking at this in 2011, no one wanted
00:25:16.740 --> 00:25:18.819
to talk about it because particularly in domestic
00:25:18.819 --> 00:25:20.960
adoptions, we have the adoption and Safe Families
00:25:20.960 --> 00:25:24.819
Act, ASFA. And there are timelines put on agencies
00:25:24.819 --> 00:25:27.500
and states to try to get children adopted as
00:25:27.500 --> 00:25:30.099
quickly as possible if they've been in care 18
00:25:30.099 --> 00:25:33.039
out of 22 months. And so when you have states
00:25:33.039 --> 00:25:36.960
and that's also only adoption is prioritized
00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:40.980
over all other forms of permanency. There's no
00:25:41.790 --> 00:25:44.190
Incentives that are provided for other forms
00:25:44.190 --> 00:25:47.230
of permanency and that also I think is an issue
00:25:47.230 --> 00:25:49.769
because if we're going to prioritize and give
00:25:49.769 --> 00:25:52.089
financial incentives for adoption, then give
00:25:52.089 --> 00:25:54.730
it to all forms of permanency because they're
00:25:54.730 --> 00:25:57.769
just as important. And these children are losing
00:25:57.769 --> 00:26:00.369
contact with all their families and then end
00:26:00.369 --> 00:26:03.670
up with no one that they can turn to and rely
00:26:03.670 --> 00:26:07.950
on when ultimately they are released from a program
00:26:07.950 --> 00:26:12.059
or when they're on the streets. Wow, that is
00:26:12.059 --> 00:26:15.440
so heartbreaking. And I also want to say, I apologize,
00:26:15.740 --> 00:26:18.880
that there probably is some very, very well -meaning
00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:21.319
adoptive parents who just don't know what else
00:26:21.319 --> 00:26:29.440
to do and are fairly desperate. But when I initially
00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:32.319
began raising the alarm around this particular
00:26:32.319 --> 00:26:36.170
facility in Jamaica, only three adoptive parents,
00:26:36.210 --> 00:26:38.289
to my knowledge, went to take their children
00:26:38.289 --> 00:26:41.670
out based upon what I was relaying. And I spoke
00:26:41.670 --> 00:26:45.710
to many of them, explaining the interviews that
00:26:45.710 --> 00:26:49.450
I had, what the children, what young adult survivors
00:26:49.450 --> 00:26:55.079
were saying, what the lawsuit that where that's
00:26:55.079 --> 00:26:57.599
the settlement in that case was for over $100
00:26:57.599 --> 00:27:00.619
million. The facility that they're connected
00:27:00.619 --> 00:27:02.599
to here in the United States that was closed
00:27:02.599 --> 00:27:04.819
for the torture of children. That's an incredible
00:27:04.819 --> 00:27:09.880
amount. And so, but they all seem to say, you
00:27:09.880 --> 00:27:13.180
know, but they don't do it now. And can you really
00:27:13.180 --> 00:27:15.720
show that they're doing it right now, even though
00:27:15.720 --> 00:27:17.920
the survivors I'm working with aren't out of
00:27:17.920 --> 00:27:21.240
the program that long. And so it seems like they
00:27:21.240 --> 00:27:25.299
are willfully blind. And I also, though, in an
00:27:25.299 --> 00:27:28.440
article I wrote, talked about abuse by proxy.
00:27:28.759 --> 00:27:31.279
And this sounds kind of horrific to say, but
00:27:31.279 --> 00:27:35.359
a lot of kids that I've encountered were also
00:27:35.359 --> 00:27:39.680
exploring their sexual identity. And so they
00:27:39.680 --> 00:27:44.359
end up being sent there, a country with very
00:27:44.359 --> 00:27:48.019
strict anti -sodomy laws. And that's a significant
00:27:48.019 --> 00:27:51.720
issue for many of the youth that are there. And
00:27:51.720 --> 00:27:54.339
I can't say they call themselves therapeutic,
00:27:54.420 --> 00:27:56.920
but certainly they're not licensed in any way.
00:27:56.980 --> 00:28:02.309
And I have reviewed probably 180. staff and former
00:28:02.309 --> 00:28:04.109
staff who work there. They're one of the biggest
00:28:04.109 --> 00:28:06.490
employers in that particular area of Jamaica,
00:28:06.490 --> 00:28:09.210
and they're barely high school diplomas, you
00:28:09.210 --> 00:28:11.430
know, and that's also a British system. So how
00:28:11.430 --> 00:28:14.089
are they trying to even educate American kids?
00:28:14.750 --> 00:28:17.829
So, you know, I think there's a willfully blind.
00:28:18.049 --> 00:28:20.670
I think there's racial dynamics, unfortunately,
00:28:21.210 --> 00:28:23.690
that the young black boy that you adopted who
00:28:23.690 --> 00:28:25.690
was so cute, all of a sudden they're a teenager,
00:28:25.690 --> 00:28:28.710
and then they're perceived as threatening. And
00:28:28.710 --> 00:28:30.859
so there are a lot of different dynamics. that
00:28:30.859 --> 00:28:34.059
are coming into play with that. And unfortunately,
00:28:34.680 --> 00:28:39.359
I've learned now that there are 129 facilities
00:28:39.359 --> 00:28:42.539
in the United States that are geared towards
00:28:42.539 --> 00:28:45.420
adoptive parents. That's an incredible number
00:28:45.420 --> 00:28:48.880
because any given program, you could say that
00:28:48.880 --> 00:28:52.440
there's about 32 % are adoptees, even though
00:28:52.440 --> 00:28:55.259
they make up less than 1 % of the population.
00:28:56.059 --> 00:29:00.059
And to find that there may actually be 129 programs
00:29:00.059 --> 00:29:03.500
that in some states, because of religious exemptions,
00:29:03.599 --> 00:29:06.380
they may have no oversight. And that's where
00:29:06.380 --> 00:29:10.400
the abuse may most often occur. You're seeing
00:29:10.400 --> 00:29:15.240
that these adoptive parents may just not know
00:29:15.240 --> 00:29:17.619
what else to do. And so they're turning to these
00:29:17.619 --> 00:29:21.759
systems that are hurting children. Yes. Or, as
00:29:21.759 --> 00:29:24.740
I said, abuse by proxy, deliberately sending
00:29:24.740 --> 00:29:27.799
them to a place with very known anti -sodomy
00:29:27.799 --> 00:29:31.759
laws, you know, a very cruel form of almost conversion
00:29:31.759 --> 00:29:36.940
therapy. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, so heartbreaking. And
00:29:36.940 --> 00:29:39.880
so you are working in advocacy, working to combat
00:29:39.880 --> 00:29:44.759
this. Have you seen any promising signs of change?
00:29:44.859 --> 00:29:47.349
What do we need to do to help? Well, I think
00:29:47.349 --> 00:29:49.789
that we need some change in federal and state
00:29:49.789 --> 00:29:52.509
laws, and I've had some promising conversations.
00:29:53.210 --> 00:29:56.490
But, you know, right now, the greatest need that
00:29:56.490 --> 00:29:59.690
I'm seeing is just emergency help for these young
00:29:59.690 --> 00:30:04.990
people that are 18, back in the US, no skills,
00:30:05.650 --> 00:30:08.390
no ability to be able to support themselves and
00:30:08.390 --> 00:30:11.450
no education, and they're in a vulnerable place.
00:30:11.880 --> 00:30:14.279
where they've been isolated for so long that
00:30:14.279 --> 00:30:17.880
they end up becoming prey to traffickers. And
00:30:17.880 --> 00:30:20.039
so I'm working with a lot of young people where
00:30:20.039 --> 00:30:24.539
I'm trying to relocate them to another state
00:30:24.539 --> 00:30:27.480
and trying to contact systems. I've contacted
00:30:27.480 --> 00:30:30.039
state systems because I do believe that state
00:30:30.039 --> 00:30:32.599
child welfare systems have an obligation to the
00:30:32.599 --> 00:30:35.900
youth that they are paying a subsidy for. And
00:30:35.900 --> 00:30:40.180
if that child was abused in these programs, there
00:30:40.180 --> 00:30:42.700
should be some responsibility, particularly when
00:30:42.700 --> 00:30:45.940
the subsidy gets paid to 21, to take those children
00:30:45.940 --> 00:30:48.759
back and somehow get them help. They may not
00:30:48.759 --> 00:30:50.900
be back in foster care, but there's other ways
00:30:50.900 --> 00:30:53.119
of being able to provide that assistance. And
00:30:53.119 --> 00:30:55.900
so I do believe that there needs to be accountability
00:30:55.900 --> 00:30:59.559
as well with adoptive parents and with state
00:30:59.559 --> 00:31:03.170
and county child welfare systems. and greater
00:31:03.170 --> 00:31:05.849
awareness, which is why I'm here trying to raise
00:31:05.849 --> 00:31:09.269
the issues. And I do hope that if this is an
00:31:09.269 --> 00:31:11.549
issue of post -adoption support and not having
00:31:11.549 --> 00:31:14.730
enough of it, or that their needs are so great,
00:31:15.150 --> 00:31:18.130
there are better ways of doing it than warehousing
00:31:18.130 --> 00:31:22.490
them in another country. And these warehousing
00:31:22.490 --> 00:31:25.509
facilities are sending them back without any
00:31:25.509 --> 00:31:29.490
skills and adulthood. Yes, yes. And from what
00:31:29.490 --> 00:31:34.450
you're seeing, the adults, the former adoptive
00:31:34.450 --> 00:31:38.089
families, they're not doing anything. No, what's
00:31:38.089 --> 00:31:41.269
sad is, is that they're told to have by the program
00:31:41.269 --> 00:31:44.309
and people affiliated with it allegedly told
00:31:44.309 --> 00:31:46.690
don't have contact with them. They're actually
00:31:46.690 --> 00:31:49.170
told, as I understand it, that these children
00:31:49.170 --> 00:31:52.250
are irredeemable, that they can attach to no
00:31:52.250 --> 00:31:56.789
one, that they liken them to some of the worst
00:31:56.789 --> 00:32:00.609
people in our history. And So they're told, you
00:32:00.609 --> 00:32:03.390
know, they, you know, to have no contact with
00:32:03.390 --> 00:32:05.089
them when they returned to the U .S. I spoke
00:32:05.089 --> 00:32:10.230
to one girl who is relocated to Hawaii. Why Hawaii?
00:32:10.990 --> 00:32:13.609
Because her family, when they brought her back
00:32:13.609 --> 00:32:15.210
to the U .S., they at least got her a ticket
00:32:15.210 --> 00:32:18.109
back to the U .S., wanted her the furthest point
00:32:18.109 --> 00:32:21.309
away from them. She had no connection to that
00:32:21.309 --> 00:32:24.289
state. And so they sent her there and said, figure
00:32:24.289 --> 00:32:26.859
it out. and she ended up getting trafficked before
00:32:26.859 --> 00:32:30.519
she got into a homeless shelter. Or as I said,
00:32:30.720 --> 00:32:33.000
they're landing at the closest port of entry,
00:32:33.180 --> 00:32:36.000
which is Florida, and getting traffic from there
00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:38.500
or homeless. And so I'm working with a lot of
00:32:38.500 --> 00:32:41.619
young people's just basic emergency needs, you
00:32:41.619 --> 00:32:44.700
know, clothing, shelter, trying to help them
00:32:44.700 --> 00:32:48.019
figure out an education. How do you even get
00:32:48.019 --> 00:32:50.819
a driver's license, which is... a little bit
00:32:50.819 --> 00:32:53.000
far down the road and they're just in survival
00:32:53.000 --> 00:32:56.059
mode at this point. So their adoptive parents
00:32:56.059 --> 00:32:58.720
are often cutting off health insurance, even
00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:01.660
though they could keep it on until 26 and at
00:33:01.660 --> 00:33:03.940
18, they're just cutting them off. And these
00:33:03.940 --> 00:33:06.900
youth, there's a lot of need, not only physically,
00:33:07.119 --> 00:33:10.000
but from an emotional health perspective. And
00:33:10.000 --> 00:33:14.619
so that is also a significant issue. only learned
00:33:14.619 --> 00:33:18.839
of a few adoptive families who engaged. And what
00:33:18.839 --> 00:33:23.079
I hope is that if it's the adoptive parents not
00:33:23.079 --> 00:33:27.220
engaging, what about the extended family? They
00:33:27.220 --> 00:33:29.559
help step in and help this young person rather
00:33:29.559 --> 00:33:31.220
than keep them on the streets, because there
00:33:31.220 --> 00:33:34.140
was commitment there at one point. And what I've
00:33:34.140 --> 00:33:36.480
heard from the extended family, who ultimately
00:33:36.480 --> 00:33:39.339
did step up for a young person, that they had
00:33:39.339 --> 00:33:42.000
been told by the parents, don't do it. They're,
00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:45.390
you know, irredeemable, they're just bad, you
00:33:45.390 --> 00:33:48.069
know, you don't want to help them. And I hope
00:33:48.069 --> 00:33:51.450
that extended family might be able to see you
00:33:51.450 --> 00:33:53.450
beyond those things, particularly when they haven't
00:33:53.450 --> 00:33:56.309
seen a child for years, and maybe step up as
00:33:56.309 --> 00:33:59.029
well to help support a child. Because sometimes
00:33:59.029 --> 00:34:01.430
it's just can you give a cash card even just
00:34:01.430 --> 00:34:04.329
for food? And that's where I found that financially,
00:34:04.329 --> 00:34:08.329
I'm trying to assist just kids to survive. So
00:34:08.329 --> 00:34:11.800
are there any policy models? Are there? anything
00:34:11.800 --> 00:34:15.500
you've seen in other places that might do a better
00:34:15.500 --> 00:34:19.260
job of protecting these kids? I can't say that
00:34:19.260 --> 00:34:22.619
I have. I mean, obviously, there's a certain
00:34:22.619 --> 00:34:25.099
white savior complex and adoption here in the
00:34:25.099 --> 00:34:26.860
United States, particularly when it comes to
00:34:26.860 --> 00:34:34.710
inner country. I haven't seen any other models
00:34:34.710 --> 00:34:37.769
in terms of how can we improve this. However,
00:34:37.909 --> 00:34:40.670
I have a list of suggestions that I have made
00:34:40.670 --> 00:34:45.250
to policymakers of where I think we can change
00:34:45.250 --> 00:34:48.309
the law, ensure accountability. Can this fit
00:34:48.309 --> 00:34:50.829
into a trafficking statute because they are moving
00:34:50.829 --> 00:34:56.269
in our country? If we are so strict about ICPC
00:34:56.269 --> 00:35:00.739
work, then why isn't that applying as well to
00:35:00.739 --> 00:35:03.039
when kids are getting placed in residential care
00:35:03.039 --> 00:35:06.599
and even as adoptees in other states, let alone
00:35:06.599 --> 00:35:09.420
foreign countries. And then on top of that, they're
00:35:09.420 --> 00:35:11.920
using transporters, professional transporters
00:35:11.920 --> 00:35:13.800
who really just grab the kids in the middle of
00:35:13.800 --> 00:35:15.480
the night and take them to a foreign country.
00:35:15.880 --> 00:35:18.420
And there needs to be more oversight and licensing
00:35:18.420 --> 00:35:21.659
over them. They're a part of the problem or educational
00:35:21.659 --> 00:35:25.409
consultants. In a recent case that I was looking
00:35:25.409 --> 00:35:28.010
at, these educational consultants had never been
00:35:28.010 --> 00:35:30.130
to the program. They knew nothing about the program,
00:35:30.150 --> 00:35:32.190
but they were getting a kickback from the program
00:35:32.190 --> 00:35:35.510
for every kid that they referred. And I'm finding
00:35:35.510 --> 00:35:37.889
that the religious communities are also helping
00:35:37.889 --> 00:35:42.309
subsidize this and also referring kids, parents
00:35:42.309 --> 00:35:45.550
to these programs. And so I think on a professional
00:35:45.550 --> 00:35:47.809
level, there's more to be done with the people
00:35:47.809 --> 00:35:50.030
that are directly involved in these referrals
00:35:50.030 --> 00:35:55.989
and these placements. But also, as I said, there's
00:35:55.989 --> 00:36:00.409
more that could be done in ensuring accountability
00:36:00.409 --> 00:36:03.929
by the state and county and the adoptive parents.
00:36:04.530 --> 00:36:07.550
So so many systematic failures that we're seeing
00:36:07.550 --> 00:36:10.730
right there leading to this issue. If we have
00:36:10.730 --> 00:36:14.719
a listener listening right now, say we have of
00:36:14.719 --> 00:36:17.340
an adoptive parent listening and they're thinking,
00:36:17.820 --> 00:36:20.599
what can I do about this? What would you tell
00:36:20.599 --> 00:36:24.000
them? I think that there's some really incredible
00:36:24.000 --> 00:36:27.900
adoption and trauma informed therapists that
00:36:27.900 --> 00:36:31.900
understand the dynamics of adoption and understanding
00:36:31.900 --> 00:36:35.860
that kids when they become adolescents are going
00:36:35.860 --> 00:36:38.559
to be a little bit crazy anyway, given all those
00:36:38.559 --> 00:36:41.380
hormones and everything else. And, you know,
00:36:41.480 --> 00:36:45.690
is there a way of balancing what's happening
00:36:45.690 --> 00:36:50.010
in terms of professional assistance or interventions
00:36:50.010 --> 00:36:53.750
beyond sending them away. And certainly I'm aware
00:36:53.750 --> 00:36:58.030
of the really incredibly sad cases where their
00:36:58.030 --> 00:37:00.190
needs are so great that they have to reenter
00:37:00.190 --> 00:37:02.030
foster care because that's the only way that
00:37:02.030 --> 00:37:05.409
they could go to higher levels of care. And for
00:37:05.409 --> 00:37:08.590
a small population, that might be true, but for
00:37:08.590 --> 00:37:14.480
180 kids outside of the U .S., You know one example
00:37:14.480 --> 00:37:17.119
is just a child who is diagnosed autistic and
00:37:17.119 --> 00:37:19.719
they learned of it after they adopted her That's
00:37:19.719 --> 00:37:22.079
not a reason to send a child away. You wouldn't
00:37:22.079 --> 00:37:25.840
do that with a biological child and so I would
00:37:25.840 --> 00:37:29.579
hope that they would Look to credible and I emphasize
00:37:29.579 --> 00:37:31.940
credible because there are a few people out there
00:37:31.940 --> 00:37:35.500
who name themselves as as qualified that might
00:37:35.500 --> 00:37:40.909
not be and really look to qualified individuals
00:37:40.909 --> 00:37:44.530
who can treat everyone because it's not just
00:37:44.530 --> 00:37:47.230
the child. The dynamics of everyone needs to
00:37:47.230 --> 00:37:50.389
be examined. And education is really critical.
00:37:51.050 --> 00:37:54.170
So without compromising anyone's privacy, can
00:37:54.170 --> 00:37:57.190
you share a story or an insight from a survivor
00:37:57.190 --> 00:38:00.289
that can help underscore the urgency of this
00:38:00.289 --> 00:38:03.090
issue? There was one young man that I spoke to,
00:38:03.170 --> 00:38:08.010
let's call him Kevin and he was only six when
00:38:08.010 --> 00:38:11.730
he was adopted and he was straight out told that.
00:38:12.889 --> 00:38:15.429
Later that they weren't prepared for him and
00:38:15.429 --> 00:38:18.710
that they just didn't want him and so he ended
00:38:18.710 --> 00:38:21.630
up bouncing around these abusive placements from
00:38:21.630 --> 00:38:25.429
approximately age eight to eighteen and he and
00:38:25.429 --> 00:38:27.849
some many of them were in the US but as I said
00:38:27.849 --> 00:38:30.230
some of them may not be licensed and may have
00:38:30.230 --> 00:38:32.650
religious exemption so they escape oversight.
00:38:33.150 --> 00:38:36.110
a lot of kids are being placed in a particular
00:38:36.110 --> 00:38:40.110
facility in Missouri, where there have been a
00:38:40.110 --> 00:38:42.889
lot of issues in terms of oversight because of
00:38:42.889 --> 00:38:45.329
the religious exemptions. And they literally
00:38:45.329 --> 00:38:49.289
sleep in coffin beds. And I have pictures and
00:38:49.289 --> 00:38:53.469
video of this where, and it reminds me of what
00:38:53.469 --> 00:38:56.650
I think a slave hold would look like and slave
00:38:56.650 --> 00:38:59.489
ships where they have to, or a more where you
00:38:59.489 --> 00:39:03.750
have to put your feet in and slide in. And And
00:39:03.750 --> 00:39:06.409
this is where they sleep and adoptive parents
00:39:06.409 --> 00:39:09.730
know that. And why wouldn't you be concerned
00:39:09.730 --> 00:39:14.329
if you saw that is the care that and this is
00:39:14.329 --> 00:39:18.530
kind of going into what I would say are maybe
00:39:18.530 --> 00:39:21.230
some of the unqualified opinions out there about
00:39:21.230 --> 00:39:26.760
how to treat young or kids with. attachment issues
00:39:26.760 --> 00:39:29.300
by saying, well, deprive them of everything and
00:39:29.300 --> 00:39:31.739
then reward them with little things as you go
00:39:31.739 --> 00:39:34.000
on. And that includes food deprivation, which
00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:37.260
is incredibly significant. But one of the youth
00:39:37.260 --> 00:39:39.760
who had slept in those coffin beds had told me
00:39:39.760 --> 00:39:43.840
that there were kittens that were around. And
00:39:43.840 --> 00:39:46.559
so they took one of the kittens and they were
00:39:46.559 --> 00:39:48.760
able to push the plywood so all of them could
00:39:48.760 --> 00:39:52.440
play with the kitten as it was going between
00:39:52.440 --> 00:39:55.369
their coffin beds. And ultimately, obviously
00:39:55.369 --> 00:39:58.510
it was found because it was meowing, but that
00:39:58.510 --> 00:40:01.909
idea of just these young, he was 13 at the time,
00:40:02.090 --> 00:40:07.369
just wanting to care for something and the deprivation
00:40:07.369 --> 00:40:09.230
that happened with that. And he actually ran
00:40:09.230 --> 00:40:13.250
away and tried to get help from a neighbor and
00:40:13.250 --> 00:40:16.250
he was of color and he was met at the door with
00:40:16.250 --> 00:40:20.480
a shotgun. He was just transported by the police
00:40:20.480 --> 00:40:22.760
back to the program. And so oftentimes these
00:40:22.760 --> 00:40:26.900
facilities are in very rural areas where there
00:40:26.900 --> 00:40:30.300
may be ideas by the people, the neighbors and
00:40:30.300 --> 00:40:32.340
the officers that are there that something's
00:40:32.340 --> 00:40:37.219
happening. We need more, not only oversight and
00:40:37.219 --> 00:40:40.780
regulation over these programs, but just even
00:40:40.780 --> 00:40:43.780
awareness with neighbors that if you see that
00:40:43.780 --> 00:40:46.639
then then do more than just meet them at the
00:40:46.639 --> 00:40:51.480
door with a shotgun and where they get just replaced
00:40:51.480 --> 00:40:57.179
in the same abusive environment. And so that
00:40:57.179 --> 00:40:59.860
are some of the stories. And unfortunately, many
00:40:59.860 --> 00:41:04.300
of the stories that I have are just heartbreaking.
00:41:05.159 --> 00:41:07.260
And that's difficult to share. And I imagine
00:41:07.260 --> 00:41:09.000
there's a trigger warning that's going to be
00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:12.500
put on the very beginning of this because They're
00:41:12.500 --> 00:41:17.119
experiencing food deprivation and you know being
00:41:17.119 --> 00:41:20.800
placed in stress positions and be made to work
00:41:20.800 --> 00:41:24.980
out in the extreme heat up to eight hours or
00:41:24.980 --> 00:41:30.500
you know isolation up to three months where they
00:41:30.500 --> 00:41:33.679
have nothing to read nothing to look at and they're
00:41:33.679 --> 00:41:36.530
somehow supposed to work on themselves. And this
00:41:36.530 --> 00:41:39.130
is another heartbreaking story. All of the girls
00:41:39.130 --> 00:41:41.909
that I've interviewed from this particular facility
00:41:41.909 --> 00:41:45.809
overseas have told me about this young lady where
00:41:45.809 --> 00:41:50.570
they said that she was in isolation for so long,
00:41:50.710 --> 00:41:53.690
they forgot about her. They thought she had gone
00:41:53.690 --> 00:41:56.449
home. And so when she came out of isolation after
00:41:56.449 --> 00:41:59.769
10 months, they literally were like, Ana, where
00:41:59.769 --> 00:42:05.590
have you been? That's heartbreaking. And that
00:42:05.590 --> 00:42:09.789
was due to her sexual identity and why they were
00:42:09.789 --> 00:42:11.869
keeping her that isolated. But the fact that
00:42:11.869 --> 00:42:14.849
all the girls have repeated the story to me of
00:42:14.849 --> 00:42:17.989
that, they literally forgot about her because
00:42:17.989 --> 00:42:19.989
she was in isolation for so long. And can you
00:42:19.989 --> 00:42:23.530
imagine the trauma to that young girl and what
00:42:23.530 --> 00:42:26.809
she went through? And where you can't look at
00:42:26.809 --> 00:42:28.789
anyone, you can't make eye contact with anyone,
00:42:28.809 --> 00:42:31.909
you can't speak to anyone, and you're in a room
00:42:31.909 --> 00:42:35.550
by yourself. Or if you even come out, then you're
00:42:35.550 --> 00:42:38.070
just separated from the rest of the group. And
00:42:38.070 --> 00:42:42.050
I wish I had happier stories. But recently, I
00:42:42.050 --> 00:42:44.429
had the one happy story where I was saying, after
00:42:44.429 --> 00:42:46.929
three years, she self -studied, got her GED.
00:42:47.110 --> 00:42:49.429
She's doing very, very well. She got her driver's
00:42:49.429 --> 00:42:52.010
license. But unfortunately, right now, those
00:42:52.010 --> 00:42:54.530
celebrations are few and far between. And I'm
00:42:54.530 --> 00:42:57.050
really working with individual kids, hoping that
00:42:57.050 --> 00:43:01.190
we can see more celebrations like that. Amazing
00:43:01.190 --> 00:43:03.849
work that you are doing because it's so heartbreaking,
00:43:04.329 --> 00:43:06.510
so appreciative that you're here sharing with
00:43:06.510 --> 00:43:09.969
us. Where can people learn more about you and
00:43:09.969 --> 00:43:12.409
your work and get involved? So absolutely, my
00:43:12.409 --> 00:43:15.190
website is called Themis Youth Law Advocacy,
00:43:15.530 --> 00:43:20.030
and I welcome donations. As I said, I started
00:43:20.030 --> 00:43:23.170
this nonprofit without funding. I am applying
00:43:23.170 --> 00:43:25.909
for grants, but I'm pretty close to exhausting
00:43:25.909 --> 00:43:29.440
my retirement. I've been using my 401k, not the
00:43:29.440 --> 00:43:31.699
smartest, and a family loan that's helped me.
00:43:32.079 --> 00:43:34.380
And so I'm thankful that I've been able to do
00:43:34.380 --> 00:43:37.219
it, but I do need assistance, particularly with
00:43:37.219 --> 00:43:40.500
the emergency needs with kids. And so I do hope
00:43:40.500 --> 00:43:42.860
that, and also I just want to develop a network
00:43:42.860 --> 00:43:45.159
around the country. And I encourage anyone to
00:43:45.159 --> 00:43:48.079
reach out to me because we need more therapists,
00:43:48.400 --> 00:43:51.000
more other parents who may want to step up for
00:43:51.000 --> 00:43:53.579
one of these young people. just house them in
00:43:53.579 --> 00:43:55.500
a hotel for one day. There's different ways of
00:43:55.500 --> 00:43:57.579
being able to contribute to help these young
00:43:57.579 --> 00:44:02.239
people. And I'm also on social media under my
00:44:02.239 --> 00:44:05.519
name, Don J. Post, ESQ, generally. And that's
00:44:05.519 --> 00:44:09.340
on Instagram, Substack, Facebook, even TikTok,
00:44:09.659 --> 00:44:13.539
which is... I honestly is very difficult for
00:44:13.539 --> 00:44:16.559
me to do, but I've entered that arena in Instagram.
00:44:17.679 --> 00:44:20.619
So you can really find me anywhere and follow
00:44:20.619 --> 00:44:23.239
the work and learn more about it because it's
00:44:23.239 --> 00:44:26.019
very nuanced. There's a lot going on, as I mentioned
00:44:26.019 --> 00:44:29.219
earlier, just this law that was passed in California
00:44:29.219 --> 00:44:33.400
addressing it. And, you know, also more news
00:44:33.400 --> 00:44:36.699
to come in the coming months as I'm working with
00:44:36.699 --> 00:44:39.460
people around these issues. Tom, thank you so
00:44:39.460 --> 00:44:41.599
much for sharing. We feel honored that you've
00:44:41.599 --> 00:44:45.199
shared this with us and really hold space for
00:44:45.199 --> 00:44:48.039
this huge issue and appreciate all you're doing.
00:44:49.019 --> 00:45:00.800
Thank you. Thank you for listening. But we want
00:45:00.800 --> 00:45:03.059
to give just a huge shout out to Dawn. And again,
00:45:03.079 --> 00:45:06.260
thank you for being on this episode of the Open
00:45:06.260 --> 00:45:10.260
Adoption Project. We encourage you, if you feel
00:45:10.260 --> 00:45:14.599
motivated to become part of this movement, to
00:45:14.599 --> 00:45:17.500
advocate for youth that might be in really challenging
00:45:17.500 --> 00:45:23.760
situations, to check out Dawn's webpage at femusyouthlawadvocacy
00:45:23.760 --> 00:45:26.059
.org. We've got a link to that in the episode
00:45:26.059 --> 00:45:29.840
notes. Also, Follow her on Instagram. We've got
00:45:29.840 --> 00:45:32.760
her Instagram handle there as well if you want
00:45:32.760 --> 00:45:35.340
to connect with her. We at the Open Adoption
00:45:35.340 --> 00:45:39.079
Project are striving to help adoptions be more
00:45:39.079 --> 00:45:41.219
ethical. Lanette and I want to do everything
00:45:41.219 --> 00:45:44.800
that we can to support ethical adoptions. And
00:45:44.800 --> 00:45:46.519
we're glad to share this episode even though
00:45:46.519 --> 00:45:50.500
it does contain a little bit heavier content.
00:45:50.900 --> 00:45:53.420
There are parts of the system that are broken
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and there are children who have unmet needs.
00:45:57.500 --> 00:46:02.800
And we hope that we can advocate for them, that
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these children who have very little or no say
00:46:06.679 --> 00:46:11.380
at all in the adoption process that ultimately
00:46:11.380 --> 00:46:15.000
are mistreated, we hope that never happens. And
00:46:15.000 --> 00:46:18.760
so again, thanks to Dawn for her advocacy, for
00:46:18.760 --> 00:46:22.139
helping raise awareness for this population.
00:46:23.440 --> 00:46:27.059
If you feel that you can be part of this support
00:46:27.059 --> 00:46:29.539
system, please don't hesitate to reach out to
00:46:29.539 --> 00:46:31.800
Don. Thank you so much for listening to this
00:46:31.800 --> 00:46:34.000
episode and we'll be back in your podcast feed
00:46:34.000 --> 00:46:35.099
in just a few weeks.