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Announcer: This is
a Getty podcast.
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[Theme music begins]
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Lilit Sadoyan: Hi, I’m
Lilit Sadoyan, the host of
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OMMM, Our Museum Mindfulness
Meditation podcast.
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Welcome to this Deeper Dive,
where we explore the themes
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of our weekly episodes with
experts ranging from paintings
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conservators to dance critics.
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Chani Nicholas: It’s one of
those things that you think
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of it, it’s like thousands of
years old, it’s come in and
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out of favor a million times,
and I think it always will.
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Sadoyan: This week, we
meditated on our place in
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time and space, inspired by a
medieval astrological diagram.
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I spoke with world-renowned
astrologer, Chani Nicholas,
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about the history of astrology
and how people use it today.
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Chani is the author of
the book “You Were Born
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For This: Astrology for
Radical Self-Acceptance”.
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She hosts the weekly podcast
“Astrology of the Week
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Ahead with Chani Nicholas”,
and runs the CHANI app.
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Now, let’s dive in.
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[On video call] Hi, Chani.
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I’m so honored that you’re
able to join our podcast today.
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Thank you so much.
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Nicholas: Thanks so
much for having me.
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Sadoyan: Of course.
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Our pleasure.
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Uh, so for our listeners
who are new to the field,
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can you talk a little bit
about what astrology is?
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Nicholas: Yeah.
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Astrology is the study of
the quality of time that
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we’re living through.
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It’s the study of the cyclical
nature of time, and it is rooted
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in our deep, deep, deep, deep,
deep, deep, deep need to know
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what is going on with the sun
and the moon, and how to orient
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ourselves in time and space.
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If you think about our ancient,
ancient, ancient ancestors, like
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way before the written word,
way before any kind of thing
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that we would find in a museum.
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We have always needed to know
how much light there’s gonna be.
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And so you’ll notice the
world over, peoples building
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seemingly impossible great
wonders of the world that line
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up with astronomical events
and happenings and cycles.
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Many of the temples around
the world that are, again,
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seemingly impossible to have
built, especially given the
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technology that they had at
that time—or we don’t even
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know some of the technologies
they had to do the things they
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did, or we can only assume some
of the technologies they had.
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Yet they did—they erected
these incredible things to
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line up with the moment of the
solstice, or to line up with
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a certain rising of a planet,
or to have some sort of
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connection to a planetary orbit
or a celestial body’s rhythms.
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You know, you can take
out the kind of spiritual
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aspect of it, or even a
philosophical aspect of it,
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and just, like, we need it to
be rooted in time and space.
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And of course, in our
modern age, we’re very
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disconnected from the sky.
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We live in a tremendous
amount of light pollution,
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and of course, like, noise
pollution, but—and a lot
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of distractions where we’re
looking down at an illuminated
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little box in our phones.
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But in fact, we used
to look up a lot at the
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illumination in the sky.
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So astrology is an articulation
of one of humanity’s oldest
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relationships, which is with
the natural world around us.
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Sadoyan: And presumably there
have been people throughout time
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who have kept track of these
cycles that you speak of, right?
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So we have probably millennia’s
worth of material that tracks
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planet, the movement of
planetary bodies and, you
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know, their impact on Earth.
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So I’m wondering why people
from professional astrologers
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to novices, why have
people been so fascinated by
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what’s going on in the sky?
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Nicholas: Well, I think partly
because of what I just said,
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partly because it is an ancient
orientation, and because
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it is the nature of a human
being to wanna know if there’s
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meaning behind the chaos.
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Life is chaotic, and it’s
really hard, and it’s painful.
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And when things happen to us
personally, it can help in
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our struggle to give it a more
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archetypal context.
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So human beings are generally
searching for some kind
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of container to hold the
things they struggle with
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in, so that we can gain a
little bit of perspective or
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understand if there’s some
meaning to attribute to it.
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And I’m not here to say that all
suffering has a meaning to it or
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a greater redemptive arc. Some
of it, I think, is really just
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blatant and violent suffering,
and there’s a lot of it on the
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planet, and I don’t look to
the planets for all of that.
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Sadoyan: Yeah.
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Nicholas: But there are some
things that are, again, cyclical
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and developmental, and part of
just, like, the human journey
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that you can find context
for inside of a system like
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astrology that has held that
context for thousands of years.
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So we’re looking for meaning.
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We’re looking for a place.
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We’re looking for a guide as
well to see, like, where should
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I go and what should I do?
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And, you know, astrology
and—astrology is not a religion.
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It is not religion.
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It’s not therapy, but because
astrology and religion have
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had this interplay throughout
thousands of years, there’s
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this way in which they have
kind of like switched the
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dominance in certain cultures,
and throughout time, they
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kind of like change hands.
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But we are always looking
for a kind of meaning
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and what to do with this
immense human struggle.
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Sadoyan: Yeah.
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How about more recently?
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I mean, I love what you said
about the source of illumination
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from the phone versus the sky.
[both laugh]
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More recently, how has
our understanding
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and relationship to
astrology changed?
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Nicholas: I mean, our
relationship to astrology
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changes every time there’s
a technological advancement.
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We expand our understanding
of the universe every
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time technology advances.
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So whether that is the discovery
of Neptune and Uranus and Pluto;
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whether that’s the discovery
of a minor planet like Chiron;
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whether that’s the discovery
of the four asteroids that
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were discovered pretty much
all at the same time, Vesta,
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Pallas Athena, Juno, and Ceres.
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We kind of, like, start to add
into the astrological paradigm
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these new planetary bodies, and
then of course, there’s like
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a bajillion asteroids that are
just flying around out there.
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So there’s that piece
of it where, like, our
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astrological system has to
then start to, like, make
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room for these other bodies.
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But then—and so that changes
the ways in which we’re doing
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astrology—but then we also
have technology helping to
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proliferate the actual tradition
and practice of astrology here
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on Earth, like the printing
press proliferates the
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horoscope.
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Like, we create the horoscope,
the sun sign horoscope
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in tandem with, you know,
the printing press really,
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like, doing its thing.
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And so then astrology can start
to spread in a way that it never
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really had before, depending on,
like, what civilization we’re
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looking at and what time period.
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But in the time period where
the printing press starts
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to get going, that’s, you
know, astrology had been
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really quiet for a long
time, so then it comes back.
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And then, you know, we can look
at the ’60s, and we can look
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at the ways in which astrology
started to, like, again, spread
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like wildfire through musicals,
on pop culture, and “hey, what’s
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your sign?”, and that kind
of thing. It’s a little less
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related to technology, but still
probably through the advent of,
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like, people buying records,
and people playing, you know,
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like, really kind of having a
different relationship to music.
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And also, like, Linda Goodman’s
Sun Signs book, and all of that
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started to really take root in
people’s conscious awareness.
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And then you look at
social media, and social
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media is, like, you know,
astrology just everywhere.
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And astrology had always
been used by capitalism.
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You know, astrology columns
have been in magazines, again,
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since the printing press.
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And so, it’s been there,
and it’s always been really
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popular, but you know, with
the advent of—the internet
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did a certain thing, too.
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And, you know, when I was
growing up, people tried to
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teach us how to, you know,
make an astrology chart by
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hand, by mathematics, of
which I was never good at.
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And then at, you know, when
I was coming into the field,
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like when I was a teenager, I
had to send away to somebody
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who had, like, a computer
program and a printer.
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I had to send them the
birth times that I wanted,
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and pay for them, and they
would, like, two weeks later
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I’d get their birth chart.
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Sadoyan: Wow.
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Nicholas: And so, and then, you
know, all of a sudden I could
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pull a birth chart online by
myself, and then, you know,
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then there’s smartphones, and
then it’s just like… And then
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COVID comes, and then TikTok
comes, and then everyone’s
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sitting at home learning
astrology—or a lot of people
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are—and then it just explodes.
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Like, it’s one of those things
that if you think of, it’s
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like thousands of years old.
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It’s come in and out of
favor a million times, and
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I think it always will.
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Like, I think it’ll go out
of favor again, and it’ll
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come back in again, if we
continue life on this planet.
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[both laugh]
Sadoyan: Yeah.
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Nicholas: But it does have that,
it has that relationship with
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humans and with technologies,
whatever technologies we’re
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using, whether it’s the
cuneiform tablet, the papyrus,
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the, you know, newspaper,
TV, stage, screen, whatever.
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Sadoyan: And even apps, right?
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Nicholas: Yeah.
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Well, definitely apps.
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Sadoyan: And for our podcast
episode this week, we discussed
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a 15th-century German manuscript
that has the different days
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of the week, the signs that
are associated with them,
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what kinds of activities that
one would engage in during
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different times of day.
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And so I wonder if we could
talk a little bit about this in
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particular, and I would love to
get your take on this period,
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um, how you understand this,
and specifically, why do we
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associate certain signs with
different days of the week?
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Nicholas: So there’s an order
of the speed of the planets, and
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so the classical planets, right?
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And I’m talking planetary
bodies, because obviously the
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sun and moon aren’t planets.
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They’re—one’s the
sun, one’s the moon.
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But we call them all planets.
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So, considering the
relative speed of all of
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the planets, they’re always
in an order, and that order
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has–is how we structure the
planetary hours in a day.
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And so every day, and depends
on what language we’re looking
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at, but they’re either named
after—they’re either named
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after, like in French, it’s
like literally named after the
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planet, the days of the week.
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In English, they’re named after
gods that are associated with
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the planets that are connected
to that day of the week.
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And so each day of the
week is said to be good for
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something that’s connected
to the planet that rules it.
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And then within that day,
every hour, there’s a
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planet that rules that hour.
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And so the day of the
week, say we’re looking at
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Sunday, is the sun’s day.
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And the first hour of
Sunday will be ruled by the
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sun, and then it will go
in order from there, and
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it’ll just keep repeating.
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And so this is the thing
about astrology, and is in
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a lot of ways, it’s a—you
can see things as like a
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fractal kind of system, right?
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There’s this like, okay,
Sunday rules the sun.
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And then within that, we
break it up into hours, and
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you’ll find the sun’s hour in
the sun’s day, which will be
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really good for sun-things.
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And sun-things are vitality,
sun-things are healing.
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The sun was thought to be
part of the divine mind.
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The sun is that generative
life force, right?
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So we wanna do things.
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We wanna wear gold.
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We wanna, you know,
light a yellow candle.
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We wanna do things that are
reflective of the sun to
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invoke the sun’s spirit.
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And so the planetary days
and the planetary hours are
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used for different purposes,
but we can think of them as
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ways to align ourselves with
the property of the day and
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the time that we are in.
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Or if you wanted to make like
a magical amulet, or you wanted
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to start a project, you could
pick the day that is ruled by
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the planet that rules the type
of activity that you want to
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do, and then if you double down
and pick the planetary hour
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that’s also a part of that,
that further imbues that thing
247
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with that property, right?
248
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Because magic and magical
practices are always
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about aligning ourselves
with the thing we’re
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wanting to create more of.
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Sadoyan: Yeah.
252
00:14:20,619 --> 00:14:25,389
Yeah, it sounds like there’s,
um, a great deal of awareness
253
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of being in sync with
planetary and zodiacal cycles.
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There’s this really keen
awareness of how to live
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one’s life according to those
to, like you said, make the
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most of the moment or find
an auspicious moment in time.
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Nicholas: Yeah, and I even
know, like, astrologers that
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will… ’Cause you can have,
like, the—I have a planetary,
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you know, the planetary hours.
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Like, you can just go
in on a website now and
261
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just get whatever it is.
262
00:14:52,830 --> 00:14:55,810
So right now we’re
in Jupiter’s day.
263
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So Jupiter’s day is gonna be
good for matters of justice
264
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and fairness and also like
creating some kind of openness
265
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or harmony or goodness.
266
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But we’re also in Mars’s hour.
267
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And so I was looking at it
and I was like, oh, it’s
268
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too bad we didn’t start a
little bit earlier ’cause
269
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we could have got Jupiter’s
hour and Jupiter’s day.
270
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[both laugh] Because Jupiter
is the planet of—he’s
271
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also the teacher, right?
272
00:15:20,990 --> 00:15:22,510
So it’s like, it
has that vibe to it.
273
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So we have an overall feeling
of Jupiter-ness, of wisdom,
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and of teaching, and of also
creating goodness and expansion.
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But I know astrologers that
will have the software just
276
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running, and they’ll just like
every once in a while look up
277
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and be like, "Oh, interesting,"
like "it just crossed over
278
00:15:44,230 --> 00:15:48,170
into a Venus hour, and my
partner texted me," or, you
279
00:15:48,170 --> 00:15:49,859
know, like there’s connections.
280
00:15:49,910 --> 00:15:54,059
And so you can, I think, you
know, it’s very in the weeds, to
281
00:15:54,059 --> 00:15:55,339
be honest, for a lot of people.
282
00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:58,239
I don’t look at planetary
days and hours that much.
283
00:15:58,739 --> 00:16:02,549
I’ll notice them, but it’s not
like I am obsessed with them.
284
00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:07,349
But I know astrologers that
are, and I think it’s a—it’s
285
00:16:07,349 --> 00:16:12,849
a really beautiful and very,
like, obsessive way almost
286
00:16:12,849 --> 00:16:14,899
of like… [laughs] [Sadoyan:
Yeah!] but that is magic.
287
00:16:14,900 --> 00:16:18,139
You know, magic, you are
being very particular, you’re
288
00:16:18,139 --> 00:16:20,599
being very specific, and
you’re being very intentional.
289
00:16:20,769 --> 00:16:23,520
Sadoyan: It seems to me like
the manuscript is the medieval
290
00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:24,719
equivalent of that, right?
291
00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,380
It’s like, this is what’s
best at this time of day,
292
00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:27,570
on this day of the week—
293
00:16:27,570 --> 00:16:28,749
Nicholas: Yeah,
it’s a prescription.
294
00:16:28,989 --> 00:16:29,939
Yes, yes.
295
00:16:30,189 --> 00:16:31,699
And also, you know,
there’s different ways
296
00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:32,560
you use astrology, right?
297
00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:34,339
Like, you can pull
your own chart.
298
00:16:35,049 --> 00:16:39,849
You can also go to an astrologer
and ask a question, and if you
299
00:16:39,849 --> 00:16:42,589
ask me a question, then there’s
a chart for that question, and
300
00:16:42,589 --> 00:16:45,749
then I look at the chart for
the answer to your question.
301
00:16:46,589 --> 00:16:50,959
And I can look at the planetary
day and hour of which you asked
302
00:16:50,959 --> 00:16:55,239
me that question, and that will
give me a level of information.
303
00:16:56,809 --> 00:16:59,640
Sadoyan: You have been
referencing charts.
304
00:17:00,259 --> 00:17:03,760
Can you please talk a little
bit about what a birth chart is?
305
00:17:04,449 --> 00:17:05,470
Nicholas: Yeah, it is that.
306
00:17:05,479 --> 00:17:09,459
It is like, okay, someone’s born
at this time, at this location,
307
00:17:09,949 --> 00:17:11,130
what’s happening in the sky?
308
00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:18,849
And so it is a exact kind of
replica of where all of the
309
00:17:18,849 --> 00:17:25,839
planets and the angles, I could
say, like the mathematical
310
00:17:25,839 --> 00:17:30,729
equations of the highest point
and the lowest point, and
311
00:17:31,179 --> 00:17:34,049
the horizon is in the sky.
312
00:17:34,099 --> 00:17:37,789
And so we lay that out on a
piece of paper, which is, you
313
00:17:37,789 --> 00:17:39,469
know, flattening the cosmos.
314
00:17:39,470 --> 00:17:42,959
[laughs] So it’s like
an interpretation of how
315
00:17:43,139 --> 00:17:48,329
the—everything was oriented
in the cosmos as it appears
316
00:17:48,330 --> 00:17:49,660
to us here on Earth.
317
00:17:50,550 --> 00:17:57,510
And then from that, we create
an understanding, or we try to—I
318
00:17:57,510 --> 00:18:01,429
always say, and this is kind
of like a convoluted thing to
319
00:18:01,429 --> 00:18:05,529
say, but it’s really important
not to read into the chart.
320
00:18:05,529 --> 00:18:08,409
It’s really important to
read out of it, and that’s
321
00:18:08,410 --> 00:18:11,870
a concept that I got
from an acting teacher,
322
00:18:12,410 --> 00:18:13,710
or many acting teachers.
323
00:18:13,710 --> 00:18:16,580
You know, like acting teachers
will always say, “Don’t read
324
00:18:16,580 --> 00:18:18,929
into the script”. Like, don’t
read into the character.
325
00:18:18,929 --> 00:18:23,320
Stop projecting all of your own
assumptions into this character.
326
00:18:23,529 --> 00:18:24,489
Read out of it.
327
00:18:25,090 --> 00:18:28,019
What is it, you know, like
how is it coming out instead
328
00:18:28,020 --> 00:18:31,259
of being like always putting
your ideas into everything?
329
00:18:31,879 --> 00:18:35,929
And so when I say read, don’t
read into—let the chart come to
330
00:18:35,930 --> 00:18:41,249
you, it’s like really looking
at it from a perspective of,
331
00:18:41,250 --> 00:18:42,409
well, what’s the condition?
332
00:18:42,500 --> 00:18:44,219
Like, what is the
condition of this planet?
333
00:18:44,219 --> 00:18:45,769
How fast was it moving?
334
00:18:46,169 --> 00:18:47,299
Was it visible?
335
00:18:47,699 --> 00:18:49,809
Would it have been
visible within seven days
336
00:18:49,809 --> 00:18:51,110
of the person’s birth?
337
00:18:51,549 --> 00:18:53,729
What place is it in?
338
00:18:53,739 --> 00:18:55,209
Does it like that place?
339
00:18:55,470 --> 00:18:57,000
Does it struggle in that place?
340
00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:01,379
Like, what is it trying to tell
you, instead of this more kind
341
00:19:01,379 --> 00:19:06,450
of modern, pop culture approach
of assuming you understand
342
00:19:07,250 --> 00:19:11,580
something about the nature
of somebody’s astrology or
343
00:19:11,580 --> 00:19:15,280
that moment because somebody
in your past did something
344
00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:18,179
that was horrible to you, and
they had the same sun sign.
345
00:19:18,820 --> 00:19:19,070
[laughs]
346
00:19:21,869 --> 00:19:26,389
Like, there’s actual
calculations, and each thing
347
00:19:26,389 --> 00:19:29,960
in the chart is this really
kind of like complicated
348
00:19:30,329 --> 00:19:34,339
equation that we have to work
out, and then once we get all
349
00:19:34,339 --> 00:19:37,280
of that in order, then we can
see, okay, well, what’s the
350
00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:39,499
potential of this landscape?
351
00:19:40,099 --> 00:19:42,890
And then you have to be like,
okay, well, then that person
352
00:19:43,199 --> 00:19:46,439
has to choose how they’re gonna
use it, and what they’re gonna
353
00:19:46,449 --> 00:19:51,189
do with it, and how they’re
going to work with the tools
354
00:19:51,189 --> 00:19:53,849
they’ve been given and with the
circumstances that they’re in.
355
00:19:55,290 --> 00:19:56,479
I don’t know if that
answers your question.
356
00:19:56,489 --> 00:19:59,079
Sadoyan: Yeah, it does, and
it has me thinking about, you
357
00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:03,650
know, it has me thinking about
how someone can use their
358
00:20:03,889 --> 00:20:08,369
birth chart to find meaning
in their life, or to align
359
00:20:08,479 --> 00:20:10,219
with their life’s purpose.
360
00:20:11,699 --> 00:20:13,419
Nicholas: Yeah, I think
it’s really important.
361
00:20:14,190 --> 00:20:19,539
We, in our app, in the CHANI
app, we try to really focus
362
00:20:19,550 --> 00:20:23,639
on your rising sign and
the planet that rules your
363
00:20:23,639 --> 00:20:27,250
rising sign, and the location
of your sun and your moon.
364
00:20:28,239 --> 00:20:30,799
I have a book, it’s called
“You Were Born For This:
365
00:20:30,809 --> 00:20:32,860
The Astrology of Radical
Self-Acceptance”, and that’s
366
00:20:32,860 --> 00:20:34,059
what that book is about.
367
00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:36,209
Because that is the entry point.
368
00:20:36,269 --> 00:20:39,749
That’s not everything, but
if you don’t get that piece,
369
00:20:40,059 --> 00:20:42,559
then I think we’re kind of
just, like, a little lost.
370
00:20:42,559 --> 00:20:44,929
And we might bump into things
that are meaningful, and like,
371
00:20:44,929 --> 00:20:47,910
“oh yeah, that sounds like me,”
but it’s not actually gonna give
372
00:20:47,910 --> 00:20:50,460
us the domain that we’re in.
373
00:20:51,010 --> 00:20:54,100
The planet that’s connected to
the rising sign, which is the
374
00:20:54,100 --> 00:20:58,620
sign that is rising up over
the eastern horizon in the
375
00:20:58,620 --> 00:21:00,989
location that you were born,
the moment that you were born.
376
00:21:01,250 --> 00:21:04,649
Very specific, fast-moving—you
know, the sky is always
377
00:21:04,650 --> 00:21:09,730
moving, so that sign is always
changing every couple hours,
378
00:21:09,730 --> 00:21:12,639
but the degree of that sign
is really important as well.
379
00:21:13,490 --> 00:21:17,410
And so that sign has a planet
that’s connected to it.
380
00:21:17,809 --> 00:21:18,059
Sadoyan: Right.
381
00:21:18,860 --> 00:21:22,989
Nicholas: And that planet
is gonna tell you something
382
00:21:22,989 --> 00:21:25,799
essential about the nature
of the direction you need
383
00:21:25,799 --> 00:21:27,079
to go in in this lifetime.
384
00:21:28,079 --> 00:21:31,879
And the quality of that
planet, the function of that
385
00:21:31,879 --> 00:21:35,209
planet, is gonna tell you
something very specific about
386
00:21:35,209 --> 00:21:36,690
the function of your life.
387
00:21:38,239 --> 00:21:42,949
And if we don’t start
there, then I don’t…like,
388
00:21:42,959 --> 00:21:46,449
that’s that whole, if you
just get one thing, that’s
389
00:21:46,449 --> 00:21:47,299
what I want you to get.
390
00:21:47,349 --> 00:21:50,550
Yes, your sun and moon
are wildly important.
391
00:21:51,379 --> 00:21:52,420
They’re the luminaries.
392
00:21:52,420 --> 00:21:55,919
They’re literally the
places of life in a chart.
393
00:21:56,089 --> 00:21:59,310
The sun is your essential
self, your divine mind, the
394
00:21:59,310 --> 00:22:00,869
spark of life, your vitality.
395
00:22:01,159 --> 00:22:04,710
The moon is your body,
your history, your lineage.
396
00:22:05,099 --> 00:22:06,909
A lot of people say,
like, emotional life,
397
00:22:06,930 --> 00:22:08,120
your sense of security.
398
00:22:09,089 --> 00:22:12,019
So the sun is like the soul
and the moon is like the
399
00:22:12,019 --> 00:22:14,550
body that holds that spirit.
400
00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:17,040
And so, without sun and
moon in the chart, we
401
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:18,309
don’t have a person.
402
00:22:18,919 --> 00:22:24,049
And so where they are is also
so immense and important.
403
00:22:25,199 --> 00:22:29,229
But if we don’t understand the
quality of the rising sign, that
404
00:22:29,229 --> 00:22:34,799
is to say the moment you said
yes to being here, the moment
405
00:22:34,820 --> 00:22:39,449
you became your own person, the
moment the body that you were
406
00:22:39,459 --> 00:22:43,509
incubated in, you know, expels
you and you go out into the
407
00:22:43,519 --> 00:22:47,519
world on your own, that’s what
the rising sign tells us the
408
00:22:47,519 --> 00:22:49,909
motivation for living your life.
409
00:22:50,059 --> 00:22:52,049
And then the planet
that rules that is like,
410
00:22:52,059 --> 00:22:53,330
and then we go here.
411
00:22:54,330 --> 00:22:58,459
That's the first through line
that we want to get, at the
412
00:22:58,459 --> 00:23:01,059
same time as understanding the
sun and moon and what they’re
413
00:23:01,059 --> 00:23:02,319
doing and how they’re working.
414
00:23:02,750 --> 00:23:06,979
So if you just understand,
honestly—I know a lot of people
415
00:23:06,979 --> 00:23:10,859
get a lot of confirmation
from the kind of personality
416
00:23:10,860 --> 00:23:14,869
traits of the signs, that
their sun and moon and rising
417
00:23:14,869 --> 00:23:16,230
sign is, and that’s great.
418
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,769
But it’s not gonna give
you necessarily direction.
419
00:23:20,199 --> 00:23:23,020
And what’s going to give you
direction is understanding
420
00:23:23,779 --> 00:23:25,159
where those things are.
421
00:23:25,169 --> 00:23:26,179
Where is your sun?
422
00:23:26,419 --> 00:23:27,309
Where is your moon?
423
00:23:27,529 --> 00:23:29,809
Where is the ruler
of your ascendant?
424
00:23:30,959 --> 00:23:33,669
Those are gonna give you
the literal locations
425
00:23:34,459 --> 00:23:35,890
that you need to be in.
426
00:23:36,250 --> 00:23:40,249
And then who else is
there, who’s influencing
427
00:23:40,249 --> 00:23:42,269
it, and, you know, all the
things that that means.
428
00:23:42,309 --> 00:23:46,649
But, you know, the barrier to
entry is, it can be significant,
429
00:23:46,660 --> 00:23:51,040
so if you just start really
simply with those things, you’ll
430
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:55,890
get a lot of direction in a
really practical way, I think.
431
00:23:57,469 --> 00:24:01,209
Sadoyan: In so much as
astrology is a mirror of
432
00:24:01,209 --> 00:24:04,820
what is happening down here
on Earth, is there such a
433
00:24:04,820 --> 00:24:08,799
thing as being out of phase
with the cosmological order?
434
00:24:10,260 --> 00:24:12,599
Nicholas: Out of
phase…like out of sync?
435
00:24:12,750 --> 00:24:14,749
Sadoyan: Yeah, like we’re
talking so much about being in
436
00:24:14,750 --> 00:24:18,499
alignment with your purpose or
your, you know, the ruler of
437
00:24:18,499 --> 00:24:19,869
your ascendant sign, and
what...
438
00:24:19,869 --> 00:24:21,749
Nicholas: Yeah, I think,
like, you know, that’s
439
00:24:21,879 --> 00:24:23,399
the game of capitalism.
440
00:24:24,309 --> 00:24:24,433
Sadoyan: ...what’s the
opposite?
441
00:24:24,433 --> 00:24:25,300
Nicholas: The opposite
is capitalism.
442
00:24:25,850 --> 00:24:31,909
[laughs] The opposite is be so
distracted by all of these ways
443
00:24:31,910 --> 00:24:37,939
in which corporations wanna
make you feel insecure, that
444
00:24:37,939 --> 00:24:42,270
you never listen to yourself,
so that you never spend time
445
00:24:42,270 --> 00:24:47,299
in a museum looking at art
and contemplating history, so
446
00:24:47,299 --> 00:24:51,580
that you never think about the
meaning of your desires and
447
00:24:51,580 --> 00:24:52,739
what they might be telling you.
448
00:24:53,619 --> 00:24:54,719
Then you’re out of sync.
449
00:24:55,349 --> 00:24:57,430
And the astrology chart’s
something that can, like,
450
00:24:57,650 --> 00:25:01,120
you know, snap you back
into awareness again.
451
00:25:01,120 --> 00:25:04,330
It can wake you up and
remind you of, like,
452
00:25:04,330 --> 00:25:07,900
wait a minute, that’s—why
do I have this desire?
453
00:25:07,909 --> 00:25:09,140
Is that my desire?
454
00:25:09,150 --> 00:25:17,659
Or is that what the world is
telling me is the thing, the
455
00:25:17,669 --> 00:25:19,179
ultimate thing, to achieve?
456
00:25:19,549 --> 00:25:21,500
Like, why do
457
00:25:23,509 --> 00:25:28,549
women spend the majority
of their life energy
458
00:25:28,909 --> 00:25:30,340
wondering if they’re too fat.
459
00:25:31,689 --> 00:25:36,109
Or if they’re looking too old,
or if they’re attractive enough.
460
00:25:36,919 --> 00:25:38,159
Well, that’s just by design.
461
00:25:39,169 --> 00:25:40,439
That’s just a distraction.
462
00:25:41,229 --> 00:25:44,469
So if you’re, you know,
overwhelmed by feelings and
463
00:25:44,469 --> 00:25:47,759
desires that you’re like,
"Have I ever questioned if
464
00:25:47,759 --> 00:25:50,149
these are mine?" And they’re
not making you happy, and
465
00:25:50,149 --> 00:25:52,089
they’re not…you’re not
feeling like you’re getting
466
00:25:52,089 --> 00:25:55,279
somewhere deep and wonderful
and transformative in your life.
467
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:59,620
Then it’s time to question,
like, where is this coming from?
468
00:26:00,029 --> 00:26:01,059
Is this me?
469
00:26:01,699 --> 00:26:04,920
Or is this the air, the
soup, the, you know,
470
00:26:05,089 --> 00:26:05,939
that I’m swimming in?
471
00:26:06,279 --> 00:26:06,689
Sadoyan: Yeah.
472
00:26:06,809 --> 00:26:09,660
It really brings you
back to the here and now.
473
00:26:10,059 --> 00:26:10,619
Nicholas: Yeah.
474
00:26:11,110 --> 00:26:12,349
Or something needs to.
475
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,749
Whether that’s astrology or
not is, you know, only you can
476
00:26:16,750 --> 00:26:24,829
know that, but anything you
can do to take the gaze from
477
00:26:24,860 --> 00:26:28,110
looking out to looking in.
478
00:26:28,209 --> 00:26:29,219
Not at your navel.
479
00:26:29,849 --> 00:26:33,999
[laughs] But just, like, to
attune yourself to something
480
00:26:34,009 --> 00:26:35,989
deeper that’s happening in you.
481
00:26:36,319 --> 00:26:36,449
[Theme music plays]
482
00:26:36,940 --> 00:26:40,249
Sadoyan: Chani, this has
been incredibly informative.
483
00:26:40,269 --> 00:26:43,030
So if people wanna learn
more, where can they find you?
484
00:26:43,550 --> 00:26:46,489
Nicholas: Yeah, you can
find me on my app, CHANI,
485
00:26:46,500 --> 00:26:48,189
the CHANI app, C-H-A-N-I.
486
00:26:48,910 --> 00:26:51,440
You can also find me online.
487
00:26:51,599 --> 00:26:53,960
Chronically, I am
there, unfortunately. [laughs]
488
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,550
But I’m on
Instagram and TikTok and
489
00:26:56,550 --> 00:26:59,319
Threads and Bluesky, mainly.
490
00:26:59,879 --> 00:27:02,689
And also, we have a blog.
491
00:27:02,719 --> 00:27:03,670
We have a website.
492
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,850
It’s Chani dot com, and
there's tons of really helpful
493
00:27:07,850 --> 00:27:11,969
articles that our team writes
all the time there to help
494
00:27:11,969 --> 00:27:15,280
you understand your life,
your chart, its potential,
495
00:27:15,750 --> 00:27:17,100
and what to do with it.
496
00:27:18,739 --> 00:27:19,219
Sadoyan: For sure.
497
00:27:19,259 --> 00:27:20,419
I can vouch for the app.
498
00:27:21,129 --> 00:27:21,659
Life-changing.
499
00:27:22,009 --> 00:27:24,229
[Nicholas laughs]
Thank you so, so much.
500
00:27:24,229 --> 00:27:25,949
Nicholas: Thank you
so much for having me.
501
00:27:26,259 --> 00:27:27,239
Sadoyan: Thank you, Chani.
502
00:27:27,249 --> 00:27:27,600
Nicholas: Yeah.
503
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,879
Sadoyan: To find the related
meditation and see images,
504
00:27:30,950 --> 00:27:34,409
transcripts, and additional
resources, visit our website
505
00:27:34,449 --> 00:27:36,389
at getty dot edu slash ommm.
506
00:27:37,259 --> 00:27:39,629
That’s O-M-M-M.
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,018
Announcer: This is
a Getty podcast.
2
000:00:03,018 --> 00:00:06,053
[Theme music begins]
3
00:00:06,053 --> 00:00:08,260
Lilit Sadoyan: Hi, I’m
Lilit Sadoyan, the host of
4
00:00:08,270 --> 00:00:11,739
OMMM, Our Museum Mindfulness
Meditation podcast.
5
00:00:12,689 --> 00:00:15,849
Welcome to this Deeper Dive,
where we explore the themes
6
00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:19,499
of our weekly episodes with
experts ranging from paintings
7
00:00:19,510 --> 00:00:21,459
conservators to dance critics.
8
00:00:21,719 --> 00:00:23,479
Chani Nicholas: It’s one of
those things that you think
9
00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:26,459
of it, it’s like thousands of
years old, it’s come in and
10
00:00:26,459 --> 00:00:30,339
out of favor a million times,
and I think it always will.
11
00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:33,769
Sadoyan: This week, we
meditated on our place in
12
00:00:33,779 --> 00:00:38,529
time and space, inspired by a
medieval astrological diagram.
13
00:00:39,239 --> 00:00:43,159
I spoke with world-renowned
astrologer, Chani Nicholas,
14
00:00:43,459 --> 00:00:46,749
about the history of astrology
and how people use it today.
15
00:00:47,779 --> 00:00:50,229
Chani is the author of
the book “You Were Born
16
00:00:50,230 --> 00:00:53,380
For This: Astrology for
Radical Self-Acceptance”.
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00:00:53,980 --> 00:00:57,070
She hosts the weekly podcast
“Astrology of the Week
18
00:00:57,070 --> 00:01:00,440
Ahead with Chani Nicholas”,
and runs the CHANI app.
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Now, let’s dive in.
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[On video call] Hi, Chani.
21
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I’m so honored that you’re
able to join our podcast today.
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00:01:08,199 --> 00:01:09,410
Thank you so much.
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00:01:09,849 --> 00:01:11,170
Nicholas: Thanks so
much for having me.
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Sadoyan: Of course.
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Our pleasure.
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Uh, so for our listeners
who are new to the field,
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can you talk a little bit
about what astrology is?
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Nicholas: Yeah.
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Astrology is the study of
the quality of time that
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we’re living through.
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It’s the study of the cyclical
nature of time, and it is rooted
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in our deep, deep, deep, deep,
deep, deep, deep need to know
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what is going on with the sun
and the moon, and how to orient
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00:01:50,500 --> 00:01:52,520
ourselves in time and space.
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If you think about our ancient,
ancient, ancient ancestors, like
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way before the written word,
way before any kind of thing
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that we would find in a museum.
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We have always needed to know
how much light there’s gonna be.
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00:02:13,089 --> 00:02:19,199
And so you’ll notice the
world over, peoples building
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00:02:19,629 --> 00:02:24,719
seemingly impossible great
wonders of the world that line
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00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:30,089
up with astronomical events
and happenings and cycles.
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00:02:30,899 --> 00:02:33,750
Many of the temples around
the world that are, again,
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00:02:33,759 --> 00:02:38,639
seemingly impossible to have
built, especially given the
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technology that they had at
that time—or we don’t even
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know some of the technologies
they had to do the things they
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did, or we can only assume some
of the technologies they had.
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Yet they did—they erected
these incredible things to
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line up with the moment of the
solstice, or to line up with
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a certain rising of a planet,
or to have some sort of
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connection to a planetary orbit
or a celestial body’s rhythms.
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You know, you can take
out the kind of spiritual
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aspect of it, or even a
philosophical aspect of it,
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and just, like, we need it to
be rooted in time and space.
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And of course, in our
modern age, we’re very
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disconnected from the sky.
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We live in a tremendous
amount of light pollution,
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and of course, like, noise
pollution, but—and a lot
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of distractions where we’re
looking down at an illuminated
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little box in our phones.
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But in fact, we used
to look up a lot at the
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illumination in the sky.
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So astrology is an articulation
of one of humanity’s oldest
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relationships, which is with
the natural world around us.
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Sadoyan: And presumably there
have been people throughout time
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who have kept track of these
cycles that you speak of, right?
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So we have probably millennia’s
worth of material that tracks
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planet, the movement of
planetary bodies and, you
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know, their impact on Earth.
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So I’m wondering why people
from professional astrologers
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to novices, why have
people been so fascinated by
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what’s going on in the sky?
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Nicholas: Well, I think partly
because of what I just said,
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partly because it is an ancient
orientation, and because
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it is the nature of a human
being to wanna know if there’s
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meaning behind the chaos.
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Life is chaotic, and it’s
really hard, and it’s painful.
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And when things happen to us
personally, it can help in
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our struggle to give it a more
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archetypal context.
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So human beings are generally
searching for some kind
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of container to hold the
things they struggle with
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in, so that we can gain a
little bit of perspective or
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understand if there’s some
meaning to attribute to it.
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00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,889
And I’m not here to say that all
suffering has a meaning to it or
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a greater redemptive arc. Some
of it, I think, is really just
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blatant and violent suffering,
and there’s a lot of it on the
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planet, and I don’t look to
the planets for all of that.
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Sadoyan: Yeah.
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00:05:33,819 --> 00:05:37,389
Nicholas: But there are some
things that are, again, cyclical
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00:05:37,389 --> 00:05:41,209
and developmental, and part of
just, like, the human journey
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that you can find context
for inside of a system like
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astrology that has held that
context for thousands of years.
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So we’re looking for meaning.
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We’re looking for a place.
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We’re looking for a guide as
well to see, like, where should
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I go and what should I do?
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And, you know, astrology
and—astrology is not a religion.
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It is not religion.
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It’s not therapy, but because
astrology and religion have
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had this interplay throughout
thousands of years, there’s
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this way in which they have
kind of like switched the
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dominance in certain cultures,
and throughout time, they
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kind of like change hands.
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But we are always looking
for a kind of meaning
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and what to do with this
immense human struggle.
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Sadoyan: Yeah.
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00:06:38,709 --> 00:06:39,990
How about more recently?
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I mean, I love what you said
about the source of illumination
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00:06:43,070 --> 00:06:45,059
from the phone versus the sky.
[both laugh]
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00:06:45,059 --> 00:06:48,999
More recently, how has
our understanding
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00:06:49,029 --> 00:06:52,109
and relationship to
astrology changed?
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00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:54,089
Nicholas: I mean, our
relationship to astrology
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00:06:54,090 --> 00:06:57,509
changes every time there’s
a technological advancement.
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00:06:57,699 --> 00:07:01,410
We expand our understanding
of the universe every
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00:07:01,410 --> 00:07:03,990
time technology advances.
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00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:11,019
So whether that is the discovery
of Neptune and Uranus and Pluto;
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00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:14,730
whether that’s the discovery
of a minor planet like Chiron;
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00:07:15,159 --> 00:07:20,099
whether that’s the discovery
of the four asteroids that
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00:07:20,099 --> 00:07:24,149
were discovered pretty much
all at the same time, Vesta,
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00:07:24,549 --> 00:07:28,249
Pallas Athena, Juno, and Ceres.
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00:07:28,269 --> 00:07:33,010
We kind of, like, start to add
into the astrological paradigm
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00:07:33,010 --> 00:07:35,480
these new planetary bodies, and
then of course, there’s like
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a bajillion asteroids that are
just flying around out there.
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So there’s that piece
of it where, like, our
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astrological system has to
then start to, like, make
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room for these other bodies.
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But then—and so that changes
the ways in which we’re doing
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00:07:51,540 --> 00:07:56,700
astrology—but then we also
have technology helping to
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00:07:56,700 --> 00:08:00,679
proliferate the actual tradition
and practice of astrology here
130
00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:02,929
on Earth, like the printing
press proliferates the
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00:08:05,569 --> 00:08:06,389
horoscope.
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00:08:06,470 --> 00:08:09,699
Like, we create the horoscope,
the sun sign horoscope
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in tandem with, you know,
the printing press really,
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00:08:12,970 --> 00:08:13,860
like, doing its thing.
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00:08:13,879 --> 00:08:17,700
And so then astrology can start
to spread in a way that it never
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00:08:17,910 --> 00:08:22,379
really had before, depending on,
like, what civilization we’re
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00:08:22,379 --> 00:08:23,519
looking at and what time period.
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But in the time period where
the printing press starts
139
00:08:26,399 --> 00:08:28,460
to get going, that’s, you
know, astrology had been
140
00:08:28,460 --> 00:08:30,620
really quiet for a long
time, so then it comes back.
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00:08:31,209 --> 00:08:34,840
And then, you know, we can look
at the ’60s, and we can look
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00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:39,890
at the ways in which astrology
started to, like, again, spread
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00:08:39,890 --> 00:08:44,910
like wildfire through musicals,
on pop culture, and “hey, what’s
144
00:08:44,910 --> 00:08:47,560
your sign?”, and that kind
of thing. It’s a little less
145
00:08:47,560 --> 00:08:53,189
related to technology, but still
probably through the advent of,
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00:08:53,190 --> 00:08:55,800
like, people buying records,
and people playing, you know,
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like, really kind of having a
different relationship to music.
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And also, like, Linda Goodman’s
Sun Signs book, and all of that
149
00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:06,470
started to really take root in
people’s conscious awareness.
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00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:09,210
And then you look at
social media, and social
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00:09:09,210 --> 00:09:13,310
media is, like, you know,
astrology just everywhere.
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00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:18,040
And astrology had always
been used by capitalism.
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00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:22,049
You know, astrology columns
have been in magazines, again,
154
00:09:22,119 --> 00:09:23,309
since the printing press.
155
00:09:23,330 --> 00:09:26,119
And so, it’s been there,
and it’s always been really
156
00:09:26,119 --> 00:09:31,490
popular, but you know, with
the advent of—the internet
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00:09:31,490 --> 00:09:32,850
did a certain thing, too.
158
00:09:32,899 --> 00:09:35,569
And, you know, when I was
growing up, people tried to
159
00:09:35,570 --> 00:09:38,849
teach us how to, you know,
make an astrology chart by
160
00:09:38,849 --> 00:09:41,699
hand, by mathematics, of
which I was never good at.
161
00:09:42,779 --> 00:09:46,259
And then at, you know, when
I was coming into the field,
162
00:09:46,289 --> 00:09:51,629
like when I was a teenager, I
had to send away to somebody
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00:09:51,629 --> 00:09:54,799
who had, like, a computer
program and a printer.
164
00:09:55,279 --> 00:09:58,329
I had to send them the
birth times that I wanted,
165
00:09:58,330 --> 00:10:00,709
and pay for them, and they
would, like, two weeks later
166
00:10:00,709 --> 00:10:01,669
I’d get their birth chart.
167
00:10:02,110 --> 00:10:02,650
Sadoyan: Wow.
168
00:10:02,669 --> 00:10:04,539
Nicholas: And so, and then, you
know, all of a sudden I could
169
00:10:04,540 --> 00:10:07,799
pull a birth chart online by
myself, and then, you know,
170
00:10:07,839 --> 00:10:11,550
then there’s smartphones, and
then it’s just like… And then
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00:10:11,550 --> 00:10:14,839
COVID comes, and then TikTok
comes, and then everyone’s
172
00:10:14,839 --> 00:10:16,859
sitting at home learning
astrology—or a lot of people
173
00:10:16,860 --> 00:10:18,960
are—and then it just explodes.
174
00:10:18,970 --> 00:10:22,589
Like, it’s one of those things
that if you think of, it’s
175
00:10:22,589 --> 00:10:24,110
like thousands of years old.
176
00:10:24,489 --> 00:10:28,169
It’s come in and out of
favor a million times, and
177
00:10:28,169 --> 00:10:29,229
I think it always will.
178
00:10:29,309 --> 00:10:31,310
Like, I think it’ll go out
of favor again, and it’ll
179
00:10:31,310 --> 00:10:34,250
come back in again, if we
continue life on this planet.
180
00:10:36,550 --> 00:10:36,807
[both laugh]
Sadoyan: Yeah.
181
00:10:36,807 --> 00:10:36,807
182
00:10:36,808 --> 00:10:36,808
183
00:10:36,809 --> 00:10:39,259
Nicholas: But it does have that,
it has that relationship with
184
00:10:39,269 --> 00:10:42,649
humans and with technologies,
whatever technologies we’re
185
00:10:42,649 --> 00:10:45,430
using, whether it’s the
cuneiform tablet, the papyrus,
186
00:10:46,349 --> 00:10:51,999
the, you know, newspaper,
TV, stage, screen, whatever.
187
00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:53,759
Sadoyan: And even apps, right?
188
00:10:53,939 --> 00:10:54,259
Nicholas: Yeah.
189
00:10:54,349 --> 00:10:55,299
Well, definitely apps.
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Sadoyan: And for our podcast
episode this week, we discussed
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a 15th-century German manuscript
that has the different days
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of the week, the signs that
are associated with them,
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what kinds of activities that
one would engage in during
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different times of day.
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And so I wonder if we could
talk a little bit about this in
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particular, and I would love to
get your take on this period,
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um, how you understand this,
and specifically, why do we
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associate certain signs with
different days of the week?
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Nicholas: So there’s an order
of the speed of the planets, and
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so the classical planets, right?
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And I’m talking planetary
bodies, because obviously the
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sun and moon aren’t planets.
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They’re—one’s the
sun, one’s the moon.
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But we call them all planets.
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So, considering the
relative speed of all of
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the planets, they’re always
in an order, and that order
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has–is how we structure the
planetary hours in a day.
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And so every day, and depends
on what language we’re looking
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at, but they’re either named
after—they’re either named
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after, like in French, it’s
like literally named after the
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planet, the days of the week.
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In English, they’re named after
gods that are associated with
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the planets that are connected
to that day of the week.
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And so each day of the
week is said to be good for
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something that’s connected
to the planet that rules it.
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And then within that day,
every hour, there’s a
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planet that rules that hour.
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And so the day of the
week, say we’re looking at
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Sunday, is the sun’s day.
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And the first hour of
Sunday will be ruled by the
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sun, and then it will go
in order from there, and
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it’ll just keep repeating.
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And so this is the thing
about astrology, and is in
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a lot of ways, it’s a—you
can see things as like a
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fractal kind of system, right?
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There’s this like, okay,
Sunday rules the sun.
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And then within that, we
break it up into hours, and
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you’ll find the sun’s hour in
the sun’s day, which will be
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really good for sun-things.
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And sun-things are vitality,
sun-things are healing.
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The sun was thought to be
part of the divine mind.
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The sun is that generative
life force, right?
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So we wanna do things.
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We wanna wear gold.
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We wanna, you know,
light a yellow candle.
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We wanna do things that are
reflective of the sun to
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invoke the sun’s spirit.
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And so the planetary days
and the planetary hours are
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used for different purposes,
but we can think of them as
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ways to align ourselves with
the property of the day and
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the time that we are in.
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Or if you wanted to make like
a magical amulet, or you wanted
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to start a project, you could
pick the day that is ruled by
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the planet that rules the type
of activity that you want to
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do, and then if you double down
and pick the planetary hour
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that’s also a part of that,
that further imbues that thing
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with that property, right?
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Because magic and magical
practices are always
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about aligning ourselves
with the thing we’re
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wanting to create more of.
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Sadoyan: Yeah.
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Yeah, it sounds like there’s,
um, a great deal of awareness
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of being in sync with
planetary and zodiacal cycles.
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There’s this really keen
awareness of how to live
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one’s life according to those
to, like you said, make the
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most of the moment or find
an auspicious moment in time.
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Nicholas: Yeah, and I even
know, like, astrologers that
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will… ’Cause you can have,
like, the—I have a planetary,
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you know, the planetary hours.
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Like, you can just go
in on a website now and
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just get whatever it is.
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So right now we’re
in Jupiter’s day.
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So Jupiter’s day is gonna be
good for matters of justice
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and fairness and also like
creating some kind of openness
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or harmony or goodness.
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But we’re also in Mars’s hour.
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And so I was looking at it
and I was like, oh, it’s
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too bad we didn’t start a
little bit earlier ’cause
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we could have got Jupiter’s
hour and Jupiter’s day.
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[both laugh] Because Jupiter
is the planet of—he’s
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also the teacher, right?
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So it’s like, it
has that vibe to it.
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So we have an overall feeling
of Jupiter-ness, of wisdom,
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and of teaching, and of also
creating goodness and expansion.
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But I know astrologers that
will have the software just
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running, and they’ll just like
every once in a while look up
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and be like, "Oh, interesting,"
like "it just crossed over
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into a Venus hour, and my
partner texted me," or, you
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know, like there’s connections.
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And so you can, I think, you
know, it’s very in the weeds, to
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be honest, for a lot of people.
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I don’t look at planetary
days and hours that much.
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I’ll notice them, but it’s not
like I am obsessed with them.
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But I know astrologers that
are, and I think it’s a—it’s
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a really beautiful and very,
like, obsessive way almost
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of like… [laughs] [Sadoyan:
Yeah!] but that is magic.
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You know, magic, you are
being very particular, you’re
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being very specific, and
you’re being very intentional.
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00:16:20,769 --> 00:16:23,520
Sadoyan: It seems to me like
the manuscript is the medieval
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00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:24,719
equivalent of that, right?
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It’s like, this is what’s
best at this time of day,
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on this day of the week—
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Nicholas: Yeah,
it’s a prescription.
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Yes, yes.
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And also, you know,
there’s different ways
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you use astrology, right?
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Like, you can pull
your own chart.
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You can also go to an astrologer
and ask a question, and if you
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ask me a question, then there’s
a chart for that question, and
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then I look at the chart for
the answer to your question.
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And I can look at the planetary
day and hour of which you asked
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me that question, and that will
give me a level of information.
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00:16:56,809 --> 00:16:59,640
Sadoyan: You have been
referencing charts.
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Can you please talk a little
bit about what a birth chart is?
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Nicholas: Yeah, it is that.
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It is like, okay, someone’s born
at this time, at this location,
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what’s happening in the sky?
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And so it is a exact kind of
replica of where all of the
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planets and the angles, I could
say, like the mathematical
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00:17:25,839 --> 00:17:30,729
equations of the highest point
and the lowest point, and
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the horizon is in the sky.
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And so we lay that out on a
piece of paper, which is, you
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know, flattening the cosmos.
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[laughs] So it’s like
an interpretation of how
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the—everything was oriented
in the cosmos as it appears
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to us here on Earth.
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And then from that, we create
an understanding, or we try to—I
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always say, and this is kind
of like a convoluted thing to
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00:18:01,429 --> 00:18:05,529
say, but it’s really important
not to read into the chart.
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It’s really important to
read out of it, and that’s
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a concept that I got
from an acting teacher,
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or many acting teachers.
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You know, like acting teachers
will always say, “Don’t read
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into the script”. Like, don’t
read into the character.
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00:18:18,929 --> 00:18:23,320
Stop projecting all of your own
assumptions into this character.
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Read out of it.
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00:18:25,090 --> 00:18:28,019
What is it, you know, like
how is it coming out instead
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of being like always putting
your ideas into everything?
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00:18:31,879 --> 00:18:35,929
And so when I say read, don’t
read into—let the chart come to
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you, it’s like really looking
at it from a perspective of,
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well, what’s the condition?
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Like, what is the
condition of this planet?
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00:18:44,219 --> 00:18:45,769
How fast was it moving?
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Was it visible?
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Would it have been
visible within seven days
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of the person’s birth?
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What place is it in?
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Does it like that place?
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00:18:55,470 --> 00:18:57,000
Does it struggle in that place?
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Like, what is it trying to tell
you, instead of this more kind
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of modern, pop culture approach
of assuming you understand
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00:19:07,250 --> 00:19:11,580
something about the nature
of somebody’s astrology or
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00:19:11,580 --> 00:19:15,280
that moment because somebody
in your past did something
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that was horrible to you, and
they had the same sun sign.
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[laughs]
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Like, there’s actual
calculations, and each thing
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00:19:26,389 --> 00:19:29,960
in the chart is this really
kind of like complicated
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00:19:30,329 --> 00:19:34,339
equation that we have to work
out, and then once we get all
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00:19:34,339 --> 00:19:37,280
of that in order, then we can
see, okay, well, what’s the
350
00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:39,499
potential of this landscape?
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00:19:40,099 --> 00:19:42,890
And then you have to be like,
okay, well, then that person
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00:19:43,199 --> 00:19:46,439
has to choose how they’re gonna
use it, and what they’re gonna
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do with it, and how they’re
going to work with the tools
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they’ve been given and with the
circumstances that they’re in.
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I don’t know if that
answers your question.
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00:19:56,489 --> 00:19:59,079
Sadoyan: Yeah, it does, and
it has me thinking about, you
357
00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:03,650
know, it has me thinking about
how someone can use their
358
00:20:03,889 --> 00:20:08,369
birth chart to find meaning
in their life, or to align
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00:20:08,479 --> 00:20:10,219
with their life’s purpose.
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00:20:11,699 --> 00:20:13,419
Nicholas: Yeah, I think
it’s really important.
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00:20:14,190 --> 00:20:19,539
We, in our app, in the CHANI
app, we try to really focus
362
00:20:19,550 --> 00:20:23,639
on your rising sign and
the planet that rules your
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00:20:23,639 --> 00:20:27,250
rising sign, and the location
of your sun and your moon.
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00:20:28,239 --> 00:20:30,799
I have a book, it’s called
“You Were Born For This:
365
00:20:30,809 --> 00:20:32,860
The Astrology of Radical
Self-Acceptance”, and that’s
366
00:20:32,860 --> 00:20:34,059
what that book is about.
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Because that is the entry point.
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00:20:36,269 --> 00:20:39,749
That’s not everything, but
if you don’t get that piece,
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00:20:40,059 --> 00:20:42,559
then I think we’re kind of
just, like, a little lost.
370
00:20:42,559 --> 00:20:44,929
And we might bump into things
that are meaningful, and like,
371
00:20:44,929 --> 00:20:47,910
“oh yeah, that sounds like me,”
but it’s not actually gonna give
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us the domain that we’re in.
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The planet that’s connected to
the rising sign, which is the
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sign that is rising up over
the eastern horizon in the
375
00:20:58,620 --> 00:21:00,989
location that you were born,
the moment that you were born.
376
00:21:01,250 --> 00:21:04,649
Very specific, fast-moving—you
know, the sky is always
377
00:21:04,650 --> 00:21:09,730
moving, so that sign is always
changing every couple hours,
378
00:21:09,730 --> 00:21:12,639
but the degree of that sign
is really important as well.
379
00:21:13,490 --> 00:21:17,410
And so that sign has a planet
that’s connected to it.
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00:21:17,809 --> 00:21:18,059
Sadoyan: Right.
381
00:21:18,860 --> 00:21:22,989
Nicholas: And that planet
is gonna tell you something
382
00:21:22,989 --> 00:21:25,799
essential about the nature
of the direction you need
383
00:21:25,799 --> 00:21:27,079
to go in in this lifetime.
384
00:21:28,079 --> 00:21:31,879
And the quality of that
planet, the function of that
385
00:21:31,879 --> 00:21:35,209
planet, is gonna tell you
something very specific about
386
00:21:35,209 --> 00:21:36,690
the function of your life.
387
00:21:38,239 --> 00:21:42,949
And if we don’t start
there, then I don’t…like,
388
00:21:42,959 --> 00:21:46,449
that’s that whole, if you
just get one thing, that’s
389
00:21:46,449 --> 00:21:47,299
what I want you to get.
390
00:21:47,349 --> 00:21:50,550
Yes, your sun and moon
are wildly important.
391
00:21:51,379 --> 00:21:52,420
They’re the luminaries.
392
00:21:52,420 --> 00:21:55,919
They’re literally the
places of life in a chart.
393
00:21:56,089 --> 00:21:59,310
The sun is your essential
self, your divine mind, the
394
00:21:59,310 --> 00:22:00,869
spark of life, your vitality.
395
00:22:01,159 --> 00:22:04,710
The moon is your body,
your history, your lineage.
396
00:22:05,099 --> 00:22:06,909
A lot of people say,
like, emotional life,
397
00:22:06,930 --> 00:22:08,120
your sense of security.
398
00:22:09,089 --> 00:22:12,019
So the sun is like the soul
and the moon is like the
399
00:22:12,019 --> 00:22:14,550
body that holds that spirit.
400
00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:17,040
And so, without sun and
moon in the chart, we
401
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:18,309
don’t have a person.
402
00:22:18,919 --> 00:22:24,049
And so where they are is also
so immense and important.
403
00:22:25,199 --> 00:22:29,229
But if we don’t understand the
quality of the rising sign, that
404
00:22:29,229 --> 00:22:34,799
is to say the moment you said
yes to being here, the moment
405
00:22:34,820 --> 00:22:39,449
you became your own person, the
moment the body that you were
406
00:22:39,459 --> 00:22:43,509
incubated in, you know, expels
you and you go out into the
407
00:22:43,519 --> 00:22:47,519
world on your own, that’s what
the rising sign tells us the
408
00:22:47,519 --> 00:22:49,909
motivation for living your life.
409
00:22:50,059 --> 00:22:52,049
And then the planet
that rules that is like,
410
00:22:52,059 --> 00:22:53,330
and then we go here.
411
00:22:54,330 --> 00:22:58,459
That's the first through line
that we want to get, at the
412
00:22:58,459 --> 00:23:01,059
same time as understanding the
sun and moon and what they’re
413
00:23:01,059 --> 00:23:02,319
doing and how they’re working.
414
00:23:02,750 --> 00:23:06,979
So if you just understand,
honestly—I know a lot of people
415
00:23:06,979 --> 00:23:10,859
get a lot of confirmation
from the kind of personality
416
00:23:10,860 --> 00:23:14,869
traits of the signs, that
their sun and moon and rising
417
00:23:14,869 --> 00:23:16,230
sign is, and that’s great.
418
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,769
But it’s not gonna give
you necessarily direction.
419
00:23:20,199 --> 00:23:23,020
And what’s going to give you
direction is understanding
420
00:23:23,779 --> 00:23:25,159
where those things are.
421
00:23:25,169 --> 00:23:26,179
Where is your sun?
422
00:23:26,419 --> 00:23:27,309
Where is your moon?
423
00:23:27,529 --> 00:23:29,809
Where is the ruler
of your ascendant?
424
00:23:30,959 --> 00:23:33,669
Those are gonna give you
the literal locations
425
00:23:34,459 --> 00:23:35,890
that you need to be in.
426
00:23:36,250 --> 00:23:40,249
And then who else is
there, who’s influencing
427
00:23:40,249 --> 00:23:42,269
it, and, you know, all the
things that that means.
428
00:23:42,309 --> 00:23:46,649
But, you know, the barrier to
entry is, it can be significant,
429
00:23:46,660 --> 00:23:51,040
so if you just start really
simply with those things, you’ll
430
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:55,890
get a lot of direction in a
really practical way, I think.
431
00:23:57,469 --> 00:24:01,209
Sadoyan: In so much as
astrology is a mirror of
432
00:24:01,209 --> 00:24:04,820
what is happening down here
on Earth, is there such a
433
00:24:04,820 --> 00:24:08,799
thing as being out of phase
with the cosmological order?
434
00:24:10,260 --> 00:24:12,599
Nicholas: Out of
phase…like out of sync?
435
00:24:12,750 --> 00:24:14,749
Sadoyan: Yeah, like we’re
talking so much about being in
436
00:24:14,750 --> 00:24:18,499
alignment with your purpose or
your, you know, the ruler of
437
00:24:18,499 --> 00:24:19,869
your ascendant sign, and
what...
438
00:24:19,869 --> 00:24:21,749
Nicholas: Yeah, I think,
like, you know, that’s
439
00:24:21,879 --> 00:24:23,399
the game of capitalism.
440
00:24:24,309 --> 00:24:24,433
Sadoyan: ...what’s the
opposite?
441
00:24:24,433 --> 00:24:25,300
Nicholas: The opposite
is capitalism.
442
00:24:25,850 --> 00:24:31,909
[laughs] The opposite is be so
distracted by all of these ways
443
00:24:31,910 --> 00:24:37,939
in which corporations wanna
make you feel insecure, that
444
00:24:37,939 --> 00:24:42,270
you never listen to yourself,
so that you never spend time
445
00:24:42,270 --> 00:24:47,299
in a museum looking at art
and contemplating history, so
446
00:24:47,299 --> 00:24:51,580
that you never think about the
meaning of your desires and
447
00:24:51,580 --> 00:24:52,739
what they might be telling you.
448
00:24:53,619 --> 00:24:54,719
Then you’re out of sync.
449
00:24:55,349 --> 00:24:57,430
And the astrology chart’s
something that can, like,
450
00:24:57,650 --> 00:25:01,120
you know, snap you back
into awareness again.
451
00:25:01,120 --> 00:25:04,330
It can wake you up and
remind you of, like,
452
00:25:04,330 --> 00:25:07,900
wait a minute, that’s—why
do I have this desire?
453
00:25:07,909 --> 00:25:09,140
Is that my desire?
454
00:25:09,150 --> 00:25:17,659
Or is that what the world is
telling me is the thing, the
455
00:25:17,669 --> 00:25:19,179
ultimate thing, to achieve?
456
00:25:19,549 --> 00:25:21,500
Like, why do
457
00:25:23,509 --> 00:25:28,549
women spend the majority
of their life energy
458
00:25:28,909 --> 00:25:30,340
wondering if they’re too fat.
459
00:25:31,689 --> 00:25:36,109
Or if they’re looking too old,
or if they’re attractive enough.
460
00:25:36,919 --> 00:25:38,159
Well, that’s just by design.
461
00:25:39,169 --> 00:25:40,439
That’s just a distraction.
462
00:25:41,229 --> 00:25:44,469
So if you’re, you know,
overwhelmed by feelings and
463
00:25:44,469 --> 00:25:47,759
desires that you’re like,
"Have I ever questioned if
464
00:25:47,759 --> 00:25:50,149
these are mine?" And they’re
not making you happy, and
465
00:25:50,149 --> 00:25:52,089
they’re not…you’re not
feeling like you’re getting
466
00:25:52,089 --> 00:25:55,279
somewhere deep and wonderful
and transformative in your life.
467
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:59,620
Then it’s time to question,
like, where is this coming from?
468
00:26:00,029 --> 00:26:01,059
Is this me?
469
00:26:01,699 --> 00:26:04,920
Or is this the air, the
soup, the, you know,
470
00:26:05,089 --> 00:26:05,939
that I’m swimming in?
471
00:26:06,279 --> 00:26:06,689
Sadoyan: Yeah.
472
00:26:06,809 --> 00:26:09,660
It really brings you
back to the here and now.
473
00:26:10,059 --> 00:26:10,619
Nicholas: Yeah.
474
00:26:11,110 --> 00:26:12,349
Or something needs to.
475
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,749
Whether that’s astrology or
not is, you know, only you can
476
00:26:16,750 --> 00:26:24,829
know that, but anything you
can do to take the gaze from
477
00:26:24,860 --> 00:26:28,110
looking out to looking in.
478
00:26:28,209 --> 00:26:29,219
Not at your navel.
479
00:26:29,849 --> 00:26:33,999
[laughs] But just, like, to
attune yourself to something
480
00:26:34,009 --> 00:26:35,989
deeper that’s happening in you.
481
00:26:36,319 --> 00:26:36,449
[Theme music plays]
482
00:26:36,940 --> 00:26:40,249
Sadoyan: Chani, this has
been incredibly informative.
483
00:26:40,269 --> 00:26:43,030
So if people wanna learn
more, where can they find you?
484
00:26:43,550 --> 00:26:46,489
Nicholas: Yeah, you can
find me on my app, CHANI,
485
00:26:46,500 --> 00:26:48,189
the CHANI app, C-H-A-N-I.
486
00:26:48,910 --> 00:26:51,440
You can also find me online.
487
00:26:51,599 --> 00:26:53,960
Chronically, I am
there, unfortunately. [laughs]
488
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,550
But I’m on
Instagram and TikTok and
489
00:26:56,550 --> 00:26:59,319
Threads and Bluesky, mainly.
490
00:26:59,879 --> 00:27:02,689
And also, we have a blog.
491
00:27:02,719 --> 00:27:03,670
We have a website.
492
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,850
It’s Chani dot com, and
there's tons of really helpful
493
00:27:07,850 --> 00:27:11,969
articles that our team writes
all the time there to help
494
00:27:11,969 --> 00:27:15,280
you understand your life,
your chart, its potential,
495
00:27:15,750 --> 00:27:17,100
and what to do with it.
496
00:27:18,739 --> 00:27:19,219
Sadoyan: For sure.
497
00:27:19,259 --> 00:27:20,419
I can vouch for the app.
498
00:27:21,129 --> 00:27:21,659
Life-changing.
499
00:27:22,009 --> 00:27:24,229
[Nicholas laughs]
Thank you so, so much.
500
00:27:24,229 --> 00:27:25,949
Nicholas: Thank you
so much for having me.
501
00:27:26,259 --> 00:27:27,239
Sadoyan: Thank you, Chani.
502
00:27:27,249 --> 00:27:27,600
Nicholas: Yeah.
503
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,879
Sadoyan: To find the related
meditation and see images,
504
00:27:30,950 --> 00:27:34,409
transcripts, and additional
resources, visit our website
505
00:27:34,449 --> 00:27:36,389
at getty dot edu slash ommm.
506
00:27:37,259 --> 00:27:39,629
That’s O-M-M-M.
