Deeper Dive: A Dance Critic on the Less Glamorous Aspects of Ballet

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Announcer: This is a Getty
podcast.
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[Theme music begins]
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Lilit Sadoyan: Hi, I’m
Lilit Sadoyan, the host of
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OMMM, Our Museum Mindfulness
Meditation podcast.
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Welcome to this Deeper Dive,
where we explore the themes
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of our weekly episodes with
experts in everything from  tea
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ceremonies to mountain climbing.
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Gia Kourlas: When you get off
stage, when you’re not under
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the lights anymore, things can
look a little bit more tawdry
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or a little bit less perfect or
[laughs] fairy princess-like.
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Sadoyan: This week, we did
a meditation on patience,
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inspired by Edgar Degas’
pastel titled Waiting.
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I spoke with New York Times
dance critic Gia Kourlas
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about her impressions of this
work and some of the less
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glamorous aspects of ballet,
like all the waiting around.
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Now let’s dive in.
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[On video call] Gia, thank
you so much for joining me.
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Kourlas: My pleasure.
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Sadoyan: So this week we
explored an exquisite pastel
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drawing by French artist
Edgar Degas, and it depicts
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a ballet dancer and her
companion waiting on a bench.
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And as someone who has
experience observing dancers
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in different environments, I
was curious to hear about your
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impressions of this artwork.
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Kourlas: Right.
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Um, it seems to me
exhaustion is the first
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thing that comes to mind.
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A lot of times what you see
on stage is––I mean, every
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time what you see on stage is
different than what reality
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is in the wing of a theater.
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And so I just think that we’re
kind of seeing the real thing
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in this painting, which is, you
know, her hand’s on her ankle,
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she’s in some pain perhaps,
or she’s just exhausted.
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Like, her legs
are so ungraceful.
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They’re splayed.
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She looks like a
guy on the subway.
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You know, she doesn’t
look like a ballerina.
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It’s a hard world, the ballet
world, and, I think you
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see that––the toughness of
it in the Degas, for sure.
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Yeah.
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You see the toil, you see the
exhaustion, you see the stress,
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you see the mental anguish.
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It’s all there in––
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Sadoyan: Yeah.
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He’s definitely not
glamorizing ballet or
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performance in any respect.
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Kourlas: No, he’s not
glamorizing ballet, but
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he’s sort of showing you
the truth of it, you know?
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And, um, the truth of it is
the beauty as well, but, you
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know, I don’t like it when
movies and, I don’t know, any
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kind of media only depicts the
stereotypes of ballet, you know?
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And I don’t think
he’s doing that here.
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Sadoyan: And, you know, it’s
interesting because both
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figures look quite exhausted.
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[Kourlas: Right.] They’re both
bent over, but the contrast
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between them couldn’t be any
more stark, in terms of their
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costume, or their mental
space, or their personalities.
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So I was wondering what
you thought about that.
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Kourlas: I think...It’s
funny, I was looking at the––
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I was looking at it a little
bit more closely, and the
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chaperone person, the woman,
she has such a young face.
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So I’m, like, curious about her.
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We don’t see the dancer’s face.
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Right?
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She’s bent over.
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We see her costume, which, even
though the contrast between
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the stark black, you know,
outfit of the chaperone and the
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dancer, it’s very different, but
I still see that the costume,
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it––when you get off stage, when
you’re not under the lights
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anymore, things can look a
little bit more tawdry or a
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little bit less perfect or
[laughs] fairy princess-like.
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And so I see the contrast,
but, there’s something so
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real-life going on in it that
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even though she’s wearing
a costume with a bow
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and, and a skirt...I don’t
think the word is drab.
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There’s nothing––it’s not that
they’re both drab, but they’re
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both a little worn, right?
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They’re used up.
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Just like the women are
kind of maybe used up.
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And so I don’t see the
beauty of the costume
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like someone else might.
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Let’s put it that way.
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I’ve seen costumes in
person, too, and sometimes
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they’re a little grungy.
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[laughs] Yeah.
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Sadoyan: For someone looking
at this, they might see
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the tutu and this beautiful
teal, you know, turquoise
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bow and think that it looks
quite dazzling, but up close
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maybe that’s not the case.
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Kourlas: I don’t know.
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It's not for me.
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I mean, I love when you look
in closer and you can see the
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colors that he’s used that
are kind of like the red.
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Sadoyan: Yes.
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Kourlas: And then I
think there’s...is there
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blue on her foot?
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Sadoyan: Yeah, along her calf.
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Kourlas: Along her calf.
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Sadoyan: There’s this
beautiful bright indigo, yeah.
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Kourlas: And so to me, I love
that because it’s sort of like
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the illusion of the stage and
the illusion of, you know, dance
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as being easy and effortless.
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And even in this drawing, we’re
looking at… We’re not seeing
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the true picture unless you
look very close and you see
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the colors that he’s used to
make certain things stand out.
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So it’s theater,
this drawing, right?
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[Sadoyan laughs] There’s
like a real sense of theater
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about the use of color, not
just position, but color and
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position together that makes
it so emotional in a way.
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It does make it of the moment.
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Like you’re in a
real tense scene.
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No matter what’s going on,
there seems to be tension.
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Right?
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Along with exhaustion.
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Yeah.
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I don’t know if she’s waiting
to hear for––to see if she
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got a part or if she’s
in the company, or what.
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Sadoyan: All of these
questions about the work of
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art, it’s quite puzzling.
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We don’t, we don’t quite know.
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But speaking of that, we’ll
shift gears a little bit.
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Kourlas: Sure.
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Sadoyan: I would love to
hear about your experience in
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the art of paying attention
when you’re watching dance.
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What are you tuning
into in those moments?
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Kourlas: It’s a lot.
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You have to really be alert,
and you can’t look away.
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I write constantly when
I’m watching a performance,
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even if I’m not reviewing
that specific night.
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It helps me pay attention,
and it’s more of a record
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of what’s going on.
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I don’t think it’s super
helpful to start writing during
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a performance or thinking
about what I’m going to say
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because then you miss
what happens next.
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So it’s always, it’s a struggle.
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You know, you feel it’s
[laughs] it’s full of tension.
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You know, but you’re very
alive and in the moment.
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There are things
I do to prepare.
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I think it’s really important
for me, not other critics
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probably, but for me to move
in some way before I sit
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down to watch a performance.
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[Sadoyan: Wow.] Yeah, so
I’m pretty athletic and I
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run and I swim and I just do
Pilates and all this stuff.
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So I try to, like, do something
before I sit down for a
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couple of hours or an hour.
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It makes… I think it
puts me in touch with the
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movement that I’m watching,
if that makes sense.
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Sadoyan: Yeah.
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Kourlas: I think it opens
my brain in a different way.
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And then I’m more
relaxed too, to really
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frame what I’m
seeing and record it.
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All of those things.
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Sadoyan: I imagine that you’re,
especially as an, you know,
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audience member, I’m paying
attention to this, like,
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the nuance of movement too.
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Kourlas: The nuance for
sure, and you’re also, you
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know, you’re focusing so hard
because the people around you
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can be distracting as well.
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You know, if they’re not
paying attention, if they’re
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pulling out their phones, if
they're doing other things.
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It’s like, it’s a lot of––it’s
a lot of paying attention.
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I’m always looking to see what
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a choreographer is trying to
say and how they’re saying
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it, if that makes sense.
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So I understand what
they want to do, but are
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they really doing it?
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Things like that.
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With ballet, I’m seeing a lot
of ballets that I’ve seen many
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times before with new casts.
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And so for me, I’m always
looking to see what a new
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dancer will bring to a role.
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Most important, you
know, is can I see them?
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Can I see a modern
person in an old ballet
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and how do they
make it alive today?
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Because they have to.
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You know, it really depends
on the choreography.
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If you’re taking a George
Balanchine ballet, that happens
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all the time because his
structure was so strong, and
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there’s a certain freedom within
that structure that lets dancers
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really be themselves––if they can
do the steps, which are hard.
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But that’s what makes it
exciting, is watching dancers,
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new dancers, older dancers
just, you know, interpret
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and make it their own.
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Even though that’s kind of
a cliche, but it’s true.
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It’s true.
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You know, if I can––I know
a lot of dancers and if I
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can see their personalities
in a ballet, that’s good.
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Not that they’re hamming it
up or anything like that,
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it’s just, it’s not their
personality the way they talk,
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but it’s the way they are.
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It’s like the spirit of them
lives inside choreography.
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Sadoyan: That’s so beautiful.
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Kourlas: Oh. [laughs]
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It can be.
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[both laugh] One hopes.
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You know, there are a lot
of bad performances, too.
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Sadoyan: Yeah.
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And in a sense as an
audience member, you’re also
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kind of, like, embodying
that movement, right?
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You might have a sort
of visceral reaction.
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Kourlas: Yeah.
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The visceral reaction
you don’t want is fear.
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Like, can they do it?
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[laughs] So I don’t
like to be afraid.
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That’s a good thing.
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That’s a good one to point out.
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I don’t like to be afraid.
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Um, I like to
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let something wash over me.
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And yeah, that I think there’s
an energetic––not to get
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too woohoo––but there’s some
kind of energetic pathway
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that is between the audience
member and what’s on stage.
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And the best performances
create this synergy.
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And there’s nothing like it.
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Especially as we don’t see
so much live art or much
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of anything these days.
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It’s a real exciting
experience to be in the
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theater when that happens.
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It’s like, I don’t
know how to explain it.
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It’s like going on
a rollercoaster.
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It’s just something out of body.
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You can’tpredict when it’s going
to happen, and you can’t
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force it to happen.
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Although judging by, sometimes,
applause, I think people are
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forcing it to happen [laughs]
because you know it’s not...
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’cause they paid for tickets,
and I don’t know, they
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have to feel a certain way.
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But really truly when it
happens, it’s gorgeous.
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It's worth everything.
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Sometimes you, you know,
something happened and then
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you’re like, “Did I really see
that happen?” And it can be...
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it doesn’t have to be a huge
jump or something virtuosic.
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It can just be a gesture
or a side look or something
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so invisible, but you felt
it and you know you saw
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it, but what did I see?
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That kind of thing.
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I mean, that’s why paying
attention’s important.
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You don’t wanna miss
those little details.
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That’s dancing.
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Like the in-between steps, I
always say, that’s dancing.
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It’s not the big pirouette
sequence or the crazy jump.
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Sadoyan: Well, speaking of the
in-between, Gia, I’m wondering
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if you could talk a little
bit about your experience
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with waiting, whether you’re
waiting to interview a
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dancer, you’re waiting for
a performance to begin, or
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waiting during intermission.
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You know, what do you
notice in those moments?
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Kourlas: About myself?
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Sadoyan: Yeah.
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Kourlas: Yeah.
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I mean, I have a
problem waiting because
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I just want to watch the dance.
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I’m not there for the
social aspect [both laugh]
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in so many ways.
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I like to just be in the
dark watching the dancers.
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Waiting for me is difficult.
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Lobbies are difficult.
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I don’t know who I’ve offended.
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[both laugh] I try to, you
know, be kind of to-myself
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as much as I can and quiet.
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Intermissions are
another horror for me.
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They’re just too long and
[laughs] sometimes I’m like,
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“Did you come for the show
or for the intermission,”
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you know? Um, not to judge,
but there, there you go, I’m
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always criticizing everything.
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So I do practice patience.
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It’s hard.
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The problem is too, people
want to know what I’ve
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thought after I’ve seen
something, and sometimes I
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don’t want to say or I just
want to think about it more.
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The minute you tell people
what you think or what you
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express through words, not the
written word, what you thought,
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it just deflates it all.
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And you can’t quite capture
it back again, I think.
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Yeah.
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It’s different chatting
loosely about things, but
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it can be a little bit,
for me, debilitating.
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I don’t know.
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Maybe it’s just me.
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Sadoyan: No, it’s me too.
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Kourlas: Yeah, I don’t
wanna give it all away.
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I wanna hold it inside, and
then process it, and then think,
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and get it out through writing.
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Like, I don’t know if you
find that, but I think
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that––often if I’m writing on
deadline, I mean, I’m like,
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“Oh, God, what am I gonna do?
What am I gonna say?” And I
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can say it through writing.
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It’s like the practice of
writing is what helps me
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express what I thought and
what I think it is, and what
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went right and what went wrong.
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And so you just don’t
wanna talk about it
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too much. [laughs]
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It’s hard to write about dance.
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Like, it’s hard to put
words to movement
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and to describe
what is happening through
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language.
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So there has to be some
kind of, I don’t know,
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in-between space that you go
through too where you have
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to translate your emotions.
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That’s kind of
what it is for me.
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And it’s a little
unpredictable, I think.
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Sometimes you just write
a sentence and you don’t
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even know you wrote it, so––
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Sadoyan: That’s right.
[both laugh]
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Just comes through
your fingertips.
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Kourlas: It just comes
through your fingertips.
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It just does.
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And so.
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Yeah.
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Sadoyan: Yeah. Okay.
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So you’ve been observing
dancers for quite some time.
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And I’m wondering if there is
something that you have observed
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in dancers, ballet dancers
in particular, that relates
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to waiting that we can take
into our regular daily lives.
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Kourlas: Okay.
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Let me think about this.
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I think that dancers have to
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show a lot of patience
in everything they do.
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Like patience with
their bodies, even.
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Perhaps when they’re
going through an injury.
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You know, that’s a really hard
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thing to go through, to not
push yourself too much, so
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that’s a form of patience
and waiting, I think.
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And we could all use some
of that in terms of, like,
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listening to our bodies and
not pushing too hard, or
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knowing when to push harder.
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There’s also, you know,
waiting for a role, thinking
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that you’ve proven yourself
and you’re still not there.
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You know?
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You’re almost there, but
you’re not there, and
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will you ever get there?
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And that’s something that
everyone goes through, right?
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At all points of your
life, I would think.
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And
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then the dancer’s life is short,
so that, having patience––it’s
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hard because they’re on a
really fragile timeline,
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and they can’t wait too long
or it will pass them by.
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So I always think of that
when I’m getting impatient,
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because I think the stakes
are higher with dancers than
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with normal, ordinary people.
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[both laugh] Pedestrians.
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Not that dancers
aren’t ordinary.
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Dancers are all, you know,
they’re just like us.
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Even ballet dancers.
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But especially ballet dancers.
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They’re just, to be
honest with you, smarter.
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Yeah.
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The body-mind connection
that dancers have, it’s
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like nothing I’ve ever seen.
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It’s terrible that dancers are
thought of as being dumb or, you
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know, people wanna make fun of.
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They’re so intelligent.
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The humor is so quick, you know.
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The way they can put ideas and
steps into their bodies in,
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like, a moment’s notice is wild.
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Their muscle memory, insane.
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A corps de ballet, like, the way
they can measure space and be
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aware of spatial––the distance
between them, the fact that
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they don’t knock each other
over, it’s insane, you know?
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Sadoyan: This has been
incredibly insightful, Gia.
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Thank you so much for
sharing your wisdom with us.
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[Kourlas laughs] And thank
you for joining the podcast.
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Kourlas: Thank you so much.
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It was a lot of fun.
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00:18:02,610 --> 00:18:05,459
Sadoyan: To find the related
meditation and see images,
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00:18:05,559 --> 00:18:09,020
transcripts, and additional
resources, visit our website
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00:18:09,059 --> 00:18:11,429
at Getty dot edu slash ommm.
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That’s O-M-M-M.