Torrey Podmajersky: Aligning Language and Meaning in Complex Systems – Episode 39

Torrey Podmajersky
Torrey Podmajersky is uniquely well-prepared to help digital teams align on language and meaning.
Her father's interest in philosophy led her to an early intellectual journey into semantics, and her work as a UX writer at companies like Google and Microsoft has attuned her to the need to discover and convey precise meaning in complex digital experiences.
This helps her span the "semantic gaps" that emerge when diverse groups of stakeholders use different language to describe similar things.
We talked about:
her work as president at her consultancy, Catbird Content, and as the author of two UX books
how her father's interest in philosophy and semantics led her to believe that everyone routinely thinks about what things mean and how to represent meaning
the role of community and collaboration in crafting the language that conveys meaning
how the educational concept of "prelecting" facilitates crafting shared-meaning experiences
the importance of understanding how to discern and account for implicit knowledge in experience design
how she identifies "semantic gaps" in the language that various stakeholders use
her discovery, and immediate fascination with, the Cyc project and its impact on her semantic design work
her take on the fundamental differences between how humans and LLMs create content
Torrey's bio
Torrey Podmajersky helps teams solve business and customer problems using UX and content at Google, OfferUp, Microsoft, and clients of Catbird Content. She wrote Strategic Writing for UX, is co-authoring UX Skills for Business Strategy, hosts the Button Conference, and teaches content, UX, and other topics at schools and conferences in North America and Europe.
Connect with Torrey online
LinkedIn
Catbird Content (newsletter sign-up)
Torrey's Books
Strategic Writing for UX
UX Skills for Business Strategy
Resources mentioned in this interview
Cyc project
Button Conference
UX Methods.org
Video
Here’s the video version of our conversation:
https://youtu.be/0GLpW9gAsG0
Podcast intro transcript
This is the Knowledge Graph Insights podcast, episode number 39. Finding the right language to describe how groups of people agree on the meaning of the things they're working with is hard. Torrey Podmajersky is uniquely well-prepared to meet this challenge. She was raised in a home where where it was common to have philosophical discussions about semantics over dinner. More recently, she's worked as a designer at tech companies like Google, collaborating with diverse teams to find and share the meaning in complex systems.
Interview transcript
Larry:
Hi everyone. Welcome to episode number 39 of the Knowledge Graph Insights podcast. I am really delighted today to welcome to the show Torrey Podmajersky. I've known Torrey for years from the content world, the UX design and content design and UX writing and all those worlds. I used to live very closer to her office in Seattle, but Torrey's currently the president at Catbird Content, her consultancy, and she's guest faculty at the University of Washington iSchool. She does all kinds of interesting stuff, very accomplished author. So welcome Torrey. Tell the folks a little bit more about what you're up to and where all the books are at these days.
Torrey:
Thanks so much, Larry. I am up to my neck in finishing the books right now. So one just came out the second edition of Strategic Writing for UX that has a brand new chapter on building LLMs into products and updates throughout, of course since it came out six years ago. But I'm also working on the final manuscript with twoTorrey Podmajersky co-authors for UX Skills for Business Strategy. That'll be a wine pairing guide, a deep reference book that connects the business impact that you might want to make, whether you're a UX pro or a PM or a knowledge graph enthusiast working somewhere in product and connecting it to the UX skills you might want to use to make those impacts.
Larry:
Excellent. I can't wait to read both of those. I love the first edition of the Strategic Writing for UX book, but... Hey, I want to talk today though about, this is the Knowledge Graph Insights podcast, and you recently did this great post and we'll talk more about it in detail in a bit about how you had discovered the Cyc project, which is a real pioneering project in the semantic technology field and really foundational to a lot of the knowledge graph stuff that's happening today. But I want to start with one of the other things we talked about before we went on the air was your observation of the kind of common philosophical roots that we have in rhetoric, maybe not necessarily rhetoric, but the stuff that we do as word nerds, as meaning nerds, as all these different kinds of technology nerds that we are. Tell me a little bit about what you meant because you just hinted that and I was like, oh, good philosophy. I love philosophy.
Torrey:
Yeah, I love philosophy too, especially through my dad. My dad was a philosophy major at Haverford College and it has deeply influenced his life and his work in semantic knowledge spaces. And I got to grow up in that context thinking that everybody thought deeply about what things meant and how we represent those meanings. I mean, the Plato's Allegory of the Cave was my bedtime story to the extent that we all knew Plato in the cave, geez, dad, just fine. Plato in the cave. We don't really know anything. All we have is facsimiles and representations of meaning and representations of reality, and through that we construct meaning. And I feel like that's all we're ever doing is using language to construct meaning based on our inability to fully perceive reality.
Larry:
And just for folks who aren't familiar, I love Plato's Allegory of the Cave. It's these poor people chained to a wall and behind them is a projector projecting stuff on the wall in front of them. So all they see is this projection of an imitation of reality, which is much like what we're doing with either both UX writing and I think ontology design and semantic engineering. So that's the perfect analogy to come into this. But your job for the last, I don't know, because you made the transition from teaching to Xbox, what? 10, 12 years ago or something like that?
Torrey:
In 2010, I joined Xbox and before that I had a short stint in internal communications in a division at Microsoft working for a VP there.
Larry:
But you've been in the word biz and the meaning biz for a long time because UX writing is, how did you say it? You have to convey meaning. That's the whole point of UX writing is to just get past random words to actually, what are we talking about here?
Torrey:
It's to make the words that people understand so quickly while they're in an experience, they're just trying to use it. They're not there to read. So we want the words to disappear into ephemeral meaning in their head that they don't even remember. They just knew what to do and which button to press and where to go next to get done what they wanted to get done.
Larry:
And one of the things about that is getting to that language to do that in an experience, that's a team sport. One of the other things that really struck me about that post you did was the role of community in language and meaning. Talk a little bit about that.
Torrey:
Yeah, it is a team sport because in general, even if it's the person doing the UX writing or that content design is also the product designer is also the interaction designer. What they're trying to do is take a wide variety of people who might be using this product that might be an incredibly diverse set of people, or it might be a very narrow set of people, let's say all IT pros. We want to sell this product to big corporations that have IT pros that want to manage their data centers. It's a pretty narrow slice of humans, but it's still hugely diverse in terms of from what language they're speaking and what kind of resources they have inside this company to the kind of background they have, to all of the different reasons they might need to manage their data centers right now.
Torrey:
From, hey, something new came online or there needs to be a new partition or new admin management of access to it or security patch updates to things like, oh, there was an earthquake at a data center and I need to and secure and audit any damage that might've happened. So there's a huge number of reasons. Let me back up of that deep analogy. There's a huge number of reasons even for a tiny population relative to the scope of humanity, a small population doing a relatively well-defined job still has a huge number of reasons they might need to be in an interface doing a thing. And what we have to do when we are designing the content for that and designing the experience itself is anticipate those and try and make sure that we've indicated that whatever reason they're coming there for, if it's a valid reason to use this piece of software, whatever reason they're coming there for, they see it reflected in the text and they understand what to do.
Torrey:
That is a team sport because I can't, and no individual person can anticipate all of those things simultaneously. We need to think them through sequentially. We need data to base it on. We need to understand, we need to hear from people who will use it or people who would use it to hear about how they think about it and specifically what language do they use, what's already in their head that we can use to reflect on that screen. So it's about understanding that space well enough, coming to understand that space well enough by communicating with other humans to know what are the right things to represent and in what hierarchy or embeddedness or relationalness, and then use some grammar and punctuation and other tricks up our language sleeves.
Larry:
Yeah, no....