Finding Yourself Through Music: Identity, Art and Community.

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Hi, you're listening to From URL to IRL, the podcast of where online connections, music, and real life collide.
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I'm your host, Valerie.
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And music has always been a huge part of my life, from growing up, going to concerts, to finding comfort and community through artists and songs that I love.
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Every week I'll sit down with artists, fans, creators, and music lovers from all walks of life to have real conversations about identity, creativity, and experiences that bring us together.
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Whether you're here for the music, the stories, or just to feel a little less alone.
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I'm happy you're here.
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Hello and welcome to another episode of From URL to IRL.
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I'm your host, Valerie, and today I'm here with my friend Rune, and he is a singer-songwriter from Portland, Oregon.
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So hello.
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Nice to have you on the show.
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I do want to ask though, what are your pronouns?
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I actually use all pronouns rotating.
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Amazing.
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Okay.
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So I we can kind of rotate between things.
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Yeah, switch it up.
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If there's a pronoun that like you have been worried about screwing up, you can practice it on me.
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Like.
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Oh, I love that.
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I love that.
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Okay.
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So then today we're gonna talk about, you know, how you've become who you are today.
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And so we'll start with, you know, what kind of music did you listen to uh when you were younger?
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Did you have a specific kind?
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What kind of brought you into where you are today?
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Yeah.
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Um I would say when I don't know how old I was, but it was probably like in middle school.
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I had three tapes.
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I had Elton John, Mariah Carey, and Boys to Men were my three tapes that I listened to.
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Um, but I wasn't really like a music fan um until I got into high school.
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And um I had played in like band, like school band or whatever.
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But when I got into high school, I went to a um like a trade, like vocational high school.
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And you choose, it's it's kind of a bad idea because they ask 14-year-olds to decide what they want to do with the rest of their life.
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Um and true, but you you do uh an exploratory phase during your first couple weeks as a freshman, and you try out all these different shops, and there's like plumbing, there's carpentry, there's print shop, and you you try out a whole bunch.
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You just get shuffled around.
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And somehow I ended up in the cosmetology uh shop.
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Okay, okay, just like hair and nails.
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There was just like that was the shop, and I was not like gay yet.
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Uh or like or like gender expansive or anything like that.
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I was just like a twerpy, nerdy boy in who had just graduated middle school.
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Um, and so I was in this class and there was this, and there was this girl who was like painting my nails because that was the assignment was to like paint each other's nails.
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And she was this like super goth girl, like like kind of like Elvira, big hair, kind of et cetera, in like high school, because I think she was a like a junior, so she was a bit older than me.
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And she was like, I'll just I'll just paint your nails black, like all the guys do it, like it's fine.
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Haven't you ever heard of punk before?
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Not a big deal.
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And I was just like, oh my god, this is terrible.
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Um and because I'm I'm just like, like, you know, like bowl cut, like button up shirt, black fingernails all of a sudden, just like mismatched to hell.
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Um, and I was afraid to go sit with my friends at lunch.
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So instead, I went and stood awkwardly near the goth kids in the hallway.
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Okay.
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And that became my first band.
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Oh.
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Because they found out I they found out that I played drums and then I just joined their band.
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And that was my intro to like being in a band, playing live shows.
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Back then it was I'm I'm 41, so this was like in 2000, maybe like 1999 or something like that.
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The shows that we were doing, like nowadays, I feel like it's much more common for there to be like three or four bands on a bill, and like everyone's doing half an hour sets kind of thing.
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And this was just like one of the kids' dads rented like a VFW hall, and it was that was like down the street from our regional vocational high school, which means there was a shitload of kids, just like tons of kids from all around the region, and we were the only band, we were just the only band.
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So, like, we we put on a show and like 200 kids came or whatever.
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That's really cool though, and we sucked, like we were like real bad.
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Um, we were so bad.
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Um, but like that was kind of my relationship to music is more kind of my relationship to DIY, um, in that like I have never really throughout the entirety of my career as a musician been able to play shows where like I didn't have to do everything myself.
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Like, even from like like walking into like a restaurant and being like, please will you let me put on a show in your restaurant?
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I promise we will bring people and make you monies.
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And that's kind of been like like even recently I was in a band that did very well.
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Like, I've been blessed to be in a couple of bands who have done quite well, like locally, from in like a local way.
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But I was in a band and we could bring like if the show was booked just right, we could bring like a hundred to a hundred fifty people to like a local show.
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And even with like paperwork proving that, it was so hard to get venues to like respond to any like even like middle of the road venues or like whatever.
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So even being in that band that was like that had major draw, maybe not major, but like good draw.
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Um I still had to go to places that nobody wants to go to and nobody plays shows at, and saying, Hey, would you let me like have you ever considered having live music in this building?
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Would you let me do something?
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Like, um, and then just throw a banger over show.
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And that's kind of always been my kind of tactic is finding the other losers and finding the loser building and then getting every and I say loser in a solidarity, like with love kind of thing.
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And then getting everybody together and being like, cool, like we don't need the established whatever.
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That show was the first when I was in high school, uh, with the painted black nails and the polo shirt.
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Was um by the time the show happened, I definitely had been to a hot topic.
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So like I was a little bit more in line with the rest of the band because I had been co-opted by the goths.
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But that was the first, I think, example to me of like, oh, like we can do anything we want.
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Like, we just have to be willing to try and fail and try again.
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And so I think that's where a lot of my music comes from.
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And by the time I got into high school, like when I when I joined that band, they had given me a CD that had like Rush and Coheating Cambria and uh Foo Fighters, and so that was kind of what I was listening to.
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I would say at the drive-in was like my favorite band in high school.
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Do you know who they are?
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You know, I actually don't think I do, which is crazy because I know who everybody is.
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Do you know who the Mars Volta are?
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They're like Yes, I love Mars Volta.
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Okay.
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Okay, so at the drive-in was the band that Mars Volta was before Mars Volta.
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Oh.
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So like where Mars Volta is Led Zeppelin.
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Yeah.
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At the drive-in is like a crazy hardcore band.
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Hell yeah.
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Okay.
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But with like the singer going like over over like the thing that they do.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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And they I would say they they were my favorite band.
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Um, yeah, when I was when I was in that era kind of.
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I remember those, I remember those days.
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And Kohe and Cambria too.
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Like they were okay, so I'm not gonna lie, the voice, the high-pitched voice always kind of annoyed me.
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I love it.
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I liked it and I was able to enjoy it, but sometimes I would just be like I had a talent.
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I had I I've had an interesting relationship with that band because when I was in high school and discovered that band for myself, I was writing my own obnoxious science fiction concept album project.
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And I saw that they were doing that, and I was so jealous, and that I got like I researched everything about Koheed and Cambria in order to prove that they were liars, and then fell in love with the band.
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Oh no.
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I mean, I still to be honest, I still think that there is a large canyon gap between what the music is accomplishing and what the storyline is doing.
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I agree.
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But but regardless of that, the story is super cool and the music is rad.
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Like, I listened to a song that they put out that I can't remember the name of recently, like a year ago or something.
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I don't listen to Koheed a lot anymore.
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I should because like their guitar tones are just like so crunchy and textural and amazing.
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I do agree with that.
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And it like, like, if any music could sound like cyberpunk, like Koheed has it.
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But like Claudio released a new Koheed song that from one of the new albums that I don't really care about.
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But this song is um like in the earlier stories, there's this thing called The Monstar that is like uh, you know, I'm not explaining to you, I'm kind of talking for the audience.
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I know that you know, but like the monsters is like this virus that turns the dad into this terrible monster, blah, blah, blah.
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And recently, Claudio, because Claudio now has children of his own, like in real life, and the main character of the story has always been Claudio, because it's kind of a like a Mary Sue self-insert.
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Um I will only ever, I will only ever call a character a Mary Sue if it's like a guy.
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Like I'm okay with that.
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I'm okay with that.
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Um, but he has a song where he's singing to his son and he's like, I am the monster, I will destroy the world for you.
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And I and I listened to the song, I just started bawling.
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I was just like like the long-term storytelling, the the unintentional long-term storytelling is incredible, and I love it.
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I actually did not know.
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I mean, I listened to them mostly just because I would listen to some of the songs that I heard on the radio.
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So I never got into them enough to know that that was actually going on.
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I suspected something when I was listening to, but I yeah, I never got into them enough to know that that was actually like something that they did for everything.
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I I just assumed that it was this album was a concept album, and that was how it was.
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No, there's like four albums that are all the same story.
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They have comic books that attach to everything.
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Like I did not know that.
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That's fascinating.
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Now I might actually have to do a deep dive.
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Yeah, yeah.
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It I mean, yeah, it's like like any science fiction story, the ending is a bit disappointing.
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But the ride to get there is is quite good.
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And and the riffs are so good, and it's just so well put together.
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And I love that like Claudio, like like how I said that, like, like you said that you the voice doesn't do it for you.
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Um the voice did it for me because like one of my first tapes was Mariah Carey.
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And like that makes sense.
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And like and Claudio is a rock guy, but he's singing like pop kind of like RB like trills in his voice, and he he does a lot of kind of of that kind of voice that is very inspired by like female vocalists from like pop music.
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Okay, that makes sense.
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That makes a lot of sense, yeah.
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And and I always loved it because like, especially now, me realizing that like I am not always a man, and like my music when I play when I play my own pop music, I'm very inspired by like uh Mariah Carey and Robin and like a lot of those kind of artists, and like Bjork and stuff, and being able to trace that inspiration to like a high school rock band with a singer who is influenced also by like iconic female vocalists is like a pretty it's a fun uh musical influence lineage to be able to trace myself back through to like anchor myself.
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So, how long were you in the band in high school?
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Oh, I don't know, like uh a year, maybe like two years or something.
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I don't know.
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Um what did you do after that?
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Oh, sorry.
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What did I do after that?
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Uh more bands, like just just always, always a band, multiple bands.
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I've been in like 500 bands.
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Like that's awesome though.
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Bands for days, all different genres.
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Sometime after I graduated high school, I was having trouble getting a job and trying to figure out stuff out.
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So I I eventually just like hit the road.
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Well, you're from the East Coast, or you're not from there, but you live there.
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So are you familiar with the Chinatown buses?
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Yes.
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Yes.
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Okay, so it was basically like, you know, I had a guitar, I had 20 bucks, I could get to New York, and then I could busk on the side of the road until I got 20 bucks and I could get to Philly.
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And I just did that for like 10 years, basically.
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And that's where like the singer-songwriter stuff came from, because it was just me and acoustic guitar, I would go to places and I would play open mics, and then people at the open mics would teach me a chord.
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Because when I left, I couldn't really play guitar, like I had always tried to play guitar, but I wasn't really good at it.
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And I would say like I was a three-chord guitar folk guitarist for probably the first like five years that I was going around.
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And that's when I felt are you familiar with if I say the genre folk punk?
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Do you know what that means?
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Oh yes.
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Oh, yes.
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Cool.
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Who are folk punk artists that you think of when you when someone says that?
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Because it means something different to everybody.
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That is a good question.
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I'm Googling now because I'm trying I'm trying to.
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Or like, even like what it what does it bring to mind for you?
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So, like for me, I think of kind of like uh a cross between so I to me, okay.
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So I first I need to like when I think of folk music, I think of kind of like uh I'm trying to think of how I describe it.
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So because like for now, like for instance, right now, I'm a big fan of um City and Color.
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It's the lead singer.
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Okay, so he's kind of folky to me, but when I think of folk punk, I think of something with a little bit more kind of like leaning towards that kind of lifestyle that punk are because you know, it's not just a genre of music being punk, it is a lifestyle.
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You have a whole, you know, uh a way of life of living your and presenting yourself.
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So for me, when I think of folk punk, I think of something a little bit more a little bit more than what Dallas does in City and Color.
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But I don't know if I particularly think of any artists.
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Cool.
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Well, when I talk about folk punk, I am referring to it's it's kind of more than a genre.
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It's like a a circuit of musicians, and it's mostly musicians who are punks.
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Like, like it's very crust punk oriented, it's very street punk oriented, it's like not like not super like pretty music, like not not necessarily like like kind of like like it does like there are crossovers with emo, but like it's it's kind of more like people who are singing like they're pirates, or like or like I think that um like maybe a little flogging Molly.
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Yeah, it's it's probably more like like um this was a bigger band that's not really part of that community, but the sound is similar, like Gogo Bordello.
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Okay, okay, my brother likes it.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Like kind of like like even though the term is very outdated, like the gypsy punk kind of thing.
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Yeah, and so like there was a lot of us who were just like hopping trains, like hitching buses, hitching rides, who were just kind of like living off the grid.
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And also, like to be honest, like Laura Jane Grace came out of this scene because Against Me was like kind of a very early, like when when she was like a solo act doing solo act against me, like like as a as a as a twink, she was on a label with other bands, and she played shows with like Ghost Mice or Johnny Hobo, like bands like that, and kind of spun out from that.
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But there was just a lot of us who like didn't fit in with like how capitalism was set up and just like lived our lives in a way where we could do our thing without being a part of it, um, which had pros and cons.
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Pros, you get to play music all the time.
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Cons, you're homeless.
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Uh so kind of vagabonds, but it's okay.
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So I did that for about 10 years.
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That's awesome, though.
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That sounds like so much fun.
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Yeah, it was.
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It was so much fun.
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I didn't realize until I got out of it like how sad I was uh doing it because it's such an adventure.
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And like you you kind of roll into a town and you meet people and you like sleep on their couch and you make pasta together, and they tell you everything that's wrong with their life, and then you disappear in the morning before they wake up after washing their dishes, and that's kind of part of the kind of the contractual agreement of being like a fairy, like that's like existing outside of the world.
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And that's like that was my life for like uh a bit of time, and it started with just open mics, but then eventually turned into like having eight-hour shifts at like a library somewhere in America, just doing like booking work on the email, just kind of like I would play a show and then like get along with a band, and they'd be like, Do you want to come with us for a couple dates on our tour?
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And I would just kind of jump in the van and sneak in a set between like doors open and show start, kind of like like off the mic, just like on the floor singing to everybody who's like around kind of thing.
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And I went around from place to place and like people started kind of playing with me sometimes.
00:20:46.720 --> 00:20:48.720
Like I'd be like, Oh yeah, you can come and join me.
00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:53.119
And it was kind of this like ragtag whoever was around kind of thing.
00:20:53.359 --> 00:20:58.960
And then in 2000, I want to say 20 like 11 or 12.
00:20:59.839 --> 00:21:04.880
So, like around this time, arcade fire in Mumford and Sons was really big.
00:21:05.519 --> 00:21:05.839
Okay.
00:21:06.319 --> 00:21:14.480
I I didn't like them, but they were really big, and I and like and and and it was kind of a joke how many people they had in their band.
00:21:14.799 --> 00:21:20.640
Like that was kind of like a like a like people like that is Mumford and Sons has 12 people.
00:21:20.799 --> 00:21:21.119
Yeah.
00:21:21.440 --> 00:21:30.400
So I thought it would be a funny joke to invite anyone who had ever played with me all around the country to Worcester, Massachusetts.
00:21:32.319 --> 00:21:33.599
Uh yeah, that's where I'm from.
00:21:33.759 --> 00:21:34.880
Worcester, Worcester, New York.
00:21:35.039 --> 00:21:36.480
Okay, I used to go to Worcester all the time.
00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:37.759
Yeah, it sucks.
00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:38.400
I love it.
00:21:38.559 --> 00:21:39.279
It sucks.
00:21:39.440 --> 00:21:42.000
Um it sucks less than Springfield.
00:21:42.319 --> 00:21:44.079
Yeah, I will I will agree.
00:21:44.319 --> 00:21:49.119
And so like 25 people came, I think.
00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:59.440
Like people like uh hopped trains, took flights, like did whatever, and we had plans to have like a practice.
00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:02.079
Whichever one was late.
00:22:02.319 --> 00:22:06.319
So it kind of and and and it was it was gonna be a clusterfuck.
00:22:06.640 --> 00:22:08.079
But then it just worked.
00:22:08.240 --> 00:22:20.319
It just like it just worked and it was so good and it never stopped happening for like I wanna say maybe like four or five years.
00:22:20.559 --> 00:22:30.240
Like it just kind of became this like large folk punk brass band where anyone could jump in at any time.
00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:41.759
We had like core players who like knew parts or made up parts that worked, and everyone else kind of would just like jump in whether they were good or not.
00:22:42.160 --> 00:23:07.359
And that was really important to me at the time because at that time, I don't remember if I said this during this section or during the not recorded pre-talk, but um, I was talking about how like I was in a band that did quite well and we still couldn't get into established venues, like not this band, but like music in general during like my early career playing music.
00:23:07.599 --> 00:23:15.759
You couldn't even get into like the shit bars without having like some draw and like a polished sound.
00:23:16.160 --> 00:23:31.839
And I've never been a polished sound, like I've always been rough around the edges, I've always been like a little bit too much for some people, a little bit not enough for other people, and a lot of other people too.
00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:49.839
And so it was really important to me to have a band that like anyone could play in, especially when it comes to like at that time, like like nowadays, you can in most cities and even a lot of towns, there you can find like a queer music scene or like a couple queer bands or whatever.
00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:51.519
And that just didn't exist.
00:23:51.759 --> 00:23:58.960
Like I was the only queer artist that I ever met for years and years and years and years.
00:23:59.119 --> 00:24:05.440
I would play shows in Kentucky and get like beer bottles thrown at my head, like just like all sorts of stuff.
00:24:05.599 --> 00:24:15.599
And so, like having a band that and also like queer people are less likely to have access to like music education and like um encouragement for music.
00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:18.799
So yeah, yeah, you just don't.
00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:25.039
And so it was really important to me to have this band that anyone could jump in and play, even if they sucked.
00:24:25.279 --> 00:24:28.000
And I'll say I feel way different now.
00:24:28.160 --> 00:24:32.720
Like, I don't, like, I don't like I'm like, okay, there's enough opportunities for everyone.
00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:36.799
Like, I would like to be over here playing well, like kind of thing.
00:24:36.960 --> 00:24:42.079
But at that point in time, there just like wasn't space for people to like grow.
00:24:42.799 --> 00:24:46.160
There were so few artists that were even famous that were queer.
00:24:46.240 --> 00:24:46.480
Yeah.
00:24:46.640 --> 00:24:47.519
At that point in time, too.
00:24:47.839 --> 00:24:48.079
No one.
00:24:48.160 --> 00:24:50.559
I I didn't have anyone that I knew.
00:24:50.720 --> 00:25:05.039
And even, I mean, to be honest, like I feel like it's even fairly recently that even like gay men, like, like, I mean, there's always been like obviously there's like Elton John, there's like Boy George, there's like all sorts of sorts of things.
00:25:05.279 --> 00:25:08.319
But they were a very particular genre, yeah, yeah.
00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:12.000
And they were in like the 80s and 70s.
00:25:12.240 --> 00:25:22.960
And and I feel like in the time that I was growing up, or maybe a little after, I think it was a little after when I was growing up, like at least some kids had like Tegan and Sarah.
00:25:23.279 --> 00:25:24.400
That's what I was gonna mention.
00:25:24.480 --> 00:25:25.839
I loved Tegan and Sarah.
00:25:25.920 --> 00:25:27.920
I was a huge Tegan and Sarah fan.
00:25:28.079 --> 00:25:36.160
I was always still Yeah, I was always super jealous that like like all my friends had Tegan and Sarah, and I was like, I don't have anybody.
00:25:36.319 --> 00:25:40.079
Like I don't, there's I get it, not really anybody for for me to look up to.
00:25:40.799 --> 00:25:43.359
Yeah, well uh no.
00:25:43.920 --> 00:25:53.200
Um but um but we would we would we would play shows all over the place and we would go on tour as like a 15 to 30 piece band.
00:25:53.440 --> 00:26:10.559
That's so cool, and at that time, like there weren't queer shows, but like we like I can confidently say that we like changed the makeup of shows that we played because no matter who was there, now there's an extra 30 like queer weirdos at the show.
00:26:10.799 --> 00:26:11.200
I love that.
00:26:11.279 --> 00:26:14.319
Man, I wish I could have seen that when I was in during that time.
00:26:14.480 --> 00:26:15.839
That would have seemed amazing.
00:26:16.240 --> 00:26:20.880
It was actually really cute when I was visiting the East Coast.
00:26:20.960 --> 00:26:22.000
I played a couple shows.
00:26:22.160 --> 00:26:26.319
I don't tour anymore because my body is too fucked up and I just can't do it.
00:26:26.559 --> 00:26:34.480
But when I go places for like vacation, like some people will go to a museum as a tourist.
00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:49.599
And I play a show because that's like a fun way to meet the artist community and to like meet people and see what kind of songwriting is there, and which has made playing shows a lot more easygoing for me because I'm like, oh, this show doesn't have to like even break even.
00:26:49.839 --> 00:26:51.920
Like it's like I'm just doing it for fun.
00:26:52.079 --> 00:26:53.599
Like, I don't need to get paid.
00:26:53.759 --> 00:26:56.799
Like, how about one of the local openers who can't afford groceries?
00:26:56.960 --> 00:26:57.680
They can have the money.
00:26:57.759 --> 00:26:58.480
Like, that's funny.
00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:06.480
But like I went back and played a show in Boston, and there was like maybe I would say there was like 10 to 15 people there or something.
00:27:06.559 --> 00:27:11.359
And that's the the kind of shows I like to play right now are really tiny and intimate.
00:27:11.599 --> 00:27:17.200
But these three kids showed up, and when I say kids, they were like 21 or 22 or something like that.
00:27:17.519 --> 00:27:42.640
But uh, they were 12 when the the album that this band that I'm talking about came out with, and then a different album I wrote, they told me that like that was their gender album, like that like they figured out things about themselves, like by which was interesting because like I didn't even know stuff about myself when I recorded that album.
00:27:42.880 --> 00:27:54.400
Like there was a point in my in my life when I was like, wow, like there's a lot of trans kids who like my music for no reason, and I don't really know why.
00:27:55.039 --> 00:27:57.519
The tall is coming from inside the house.
00:27:57.920 --> 00:28:00.160
And now I'm like, oh, okay, I get it.
00:28:00.319 --> 00:28:02.640
Um but they saw what you didn't yet.
00:28:02.880 --> 00:28:22.559
Yeah, they yeah, and and then um these kids who came thought I was dead for a long time because somebody uh released a cover album of my songs with like a bunch of community members from the community that I had been a part of and called it like the Gregory McKillop tribute album.
00:28:22.799 --> 00:28:27.279
And that there's some connotations to that name.
00:28:27.440 --> 00:28:37.200
And at the same time, I was going through some of the maybe a little bit later, I went through some of my gender realizations and I like deleted a bunch of my identity offline.
00:28:37.599 --> 00:28:43.519
So at the same time as when this tribute album came out, like I kind of disappeared.
00:28:43.839 --> 00:28:49.039
And so, like, some people like seriously thought that I had passed away or like whatever.
00:28:49.279 --> 00:28:59.359
So it was so nice to play the show and have these kids I had never met before, had never seen, and they were like, Oh, we always wish that we had gotten to see this band, and it was great to get to see you play live.
00:28:59.519 --> 00:29:06.319
And I was like, you know, I mean, you talk to a lot of musicians, so I'm you know, and are you a musician yourself?
00:29:06.559 --> 00:29:08.160
So I kind of, yes.
00:29:08.319 --> 00:29:09.680
Like I grew up playing music.
00:29:09.759 --> 00:29:17.440
I was in band and I played the piano, and I grew up, I was very always like entrenched in music.
00:29:17.599 --> 00:29:21.119
It has always been a very big part of my life, but I'm not.
00:29:21.279 --> 00:29:24.480
I wish, I want to be, but oh, join a band.
00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:26.079
I overthink everything.
00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:30.640
No, no, just you gotta just you gotta just do it, anyways.
00:29:30.799 --> 00:29:49.920
Um, like uh uh the I'm sure that you either know or have heard lots of musicians that you've interviewed talk about how like there's always the feeling that like you have not succeeded enough, like in music industry or in opportunities or whatever.
00:29:50.160 --> 00:29:57.279
And I felt that way for a long time because it's hard to go on tour for 10 years and and and and be like, well, what did that get me?
00:29:57.440 --> 00:29:59.359
Like what what, etc.
00:29:59.759 --> 00:30:06.079
And kind of seeing seeing my peers get like big opportunities and like get signed and like all this other stuff.
00:30:06.240 --> 00:30:13.680
Not that I wanted that, but like, and now I've like done a lot of work on myself to like move past like those feelings.
00:30:13.920 --> 00:30:27.200
And now, like, you know, I play a show like that, and I would say like I have a moment like that with those kids like once or twice a year, where somebody is like, oh, your music was so important to me growing up, or like whatever.
00:30:27.279 --> 00:30:30.160
And like, I'm not even that old, like kind of thing.
00:30:30.319 --> 00:30:40.079
And that's like more special to me than any amount of like indie music darling, like TikTok, like whatever.
00:30:40.319 --> 00:30:52.079
Like, uh just just meeting like one person who like found meaning in my like rough around the edges weirdo concept album bullshit.
00:30:52.319 --> 00:30:54.640
Listening to my music is not easy.
00:30:54.960 --> 00:31:00.880
Like, it's not made to be accessible, it's like wordy, there's a lot going on in it.
00:31:01.119 --> 00:31:02.480
The songs are long.
00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:08.240
I don't put it on any like platform that is easy to access.
00:31:08.400 --> 00:31:19.920
Like, it's not on Spotify, it's not on Bandcamp, it's not on like anything, it's just on like my website with like a hacked player kind of thing.
00:31:20.160 --> 00:31:23.279
You can barely listen to it on a phone unless you download it.
00:31:23.359 --> 00:31:29.599
Like you have to like sit down and make like in like this is my time to listen to this music.
00:31:29.839 --> 00:31:35.200
And I found that like that brings to me the listeners who want to go on the job.
00:31:35.440 --> 00:31:36.400
That are meant to be there.
00:31:36.480 --> 00:31:36.799
Yeah.
00:31:37.039 --> 00:31:45.200
As opposed to listeners who are just like waiting for like pig slop to come down the trough, like while they're doing other things.
00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:48.799
So, yeah, anyways, that was a big long ramble.
00:31:49.200 --> 00:31:50.240
No, I love it.
00:31:50.799 --> 00:31:52.960
Sorry, I was about to sneeze and it went away.
00:31:53.200 --> 00:31:53.839
Yeah.
00:31:54.559 --> 00:31:56.079
But I no, I love that.
00:31:56.319 --> 00:32:04.319
Um I love when an artist really you can tell when an artist is truly doing it because they love it when they do things like that.
00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:12.720
Because an artist who's doing it because they love making music and being a musician don't care about reaching the masses.
00:32:12.799 --> 00:32:16.880
They want to reach the person that's right for them, the person that is meant to find their music.
00:32:17.279 --> 00:32:29.279
I would say I think that there's multiple types of musicians because, like, like, for instance, so the band that I was talking about that was the big brass band, that was called Speaker for the Dead.
00:32:29.440 --> 00:32:31.039
I should start saying names.
00:32:31.279 --> 00:32:36.960
And the the band that I was more recently in that did quite well was called New Here.
00:32:37.119 --> 00:32:38.559
And they're still a band.
00:32:38.640 --> 00:32:40.000
I just I just left.
00:32:40.160 --> 00:32:43.119
And I still like am on good terms with them.
00:32:43.279 --> 00:32:48.480
I gave them like a year's notice before I left because I wanted everything to be chill.
00:32:48.640 --> 00:32:51.279
I was just like, I'm 10 years older than everybody else in the band.
00:32:51.440 --> 00:32:52.720
My body is down.
00:32:52.880 --> 00:32:54.319
I can't, I can't do this.
00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:58.799
Um, and I don't want to play, and this was like a queer, thrashy pop punk band.
00:32:59.279 --> 00:33:04.799
And I was like, I don't want to play that unless I can like turn into a tornado on stage every single night.
00:33:05.039 --> 00:33:06.799
And I just can't anymore.
00:33:07.119 --> 00:33:18.079
But our singer, McKenzie, who is still fronting that band and doing all the cool stuff, McKenzie writes music that is very accessible.
00:33:18.799 --> 00:33:36.720
Like she has whatever like the it factor is that she's able to like like you know, like she does stuff on TikTok and she does stuff on Instagram, and like people get really like like really relate to her music and like get really into it and stuff.
00:33:36.880 --> 00:34:01.839
And I think it's less about like real musicians who are really into it, like do it in this particular way, and more about like each of us has a path, and like some of us are lucky enough that like the way that we naturally make music or the fun that we have like making like content or videos, because like for some people that is an art, like that's fun.
00:34:02.240 --> 00:34:14.800
And if you if you fit into like the narrow box of people who the algorithm will support, then like go at it, like go ham as long as you're being authentic or like whatever.
00:34:14.880 --> 00:34:22.960
And that was something that I loved about being in a band with McKenzie was that like she was into all that stuff, and like I'm I'm a curmudgeon grump.
00:34:23.039 --> 00:34:26.239
When I joined the band, I was like, I was like, fuck Spotify.
00:34:26.320 --> 00:34:29.840
Like, we don't we don't need to care about streams, like who gives a shit?
00:34:30.079 --> 00:34:36.639
Um, but but then like I was like, you know, if I'm gonna be in this band, I should have fun being in this band.
00:34:36.800 --> 00:34:44.880
Like if it's not fun for me to do that stuff, I should not be in that in this band, but I want to be in this band.
00:34:45.119 --> 00:34:50.480
So I compromised and I like found ways to enjoy it, and I really did.
00:34:50.639 --> 00:35:04.800
And like that's something like I'm starting to work with other musicians as kind of like a like a coach a little bit, like a like an art and music coach to be like, you know, like what are your goals?
00:35:04.960 --> 00:35:11.679
Like, because for some of us, our goal is to make the perfect album.
00:35:12.000 --> 00:35:12.480
Yeah.
00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:23.440
And then if you also have a goal of I want to be super famous, but your perfect album doesn't fit with what the industry wants right now, you need to figure out a compromise between those two goals.
00:35:23.599 --> 00:35:40.320
And maybe, maybe the compromise is you put off making your perfect album, go find somebody who fits with what the industry wants and be their lead guitarist for like a couple years so that you can like get your chops up, make some connections, build an audience.
00:35:40.480 --> 00:35:50.800
And then once you like have like some stake in like a community or an industry or whatever, then come out with like your weirdo like too long album or whatever.
00:35:50.960 --> 00:36:11.679
Cause honestly, like that's what worked for me is that like like and like when I left New Here, not a lot of their audience like followed me because like they like shorter songs and they like they like it when a cute, a cute, queer girl is singing about cute, queer girl things, and that's like not who I am.
00:36:11.920 --> 00:36:18.639
But there are people who like kind of were into what and it also just gave me the confidence to just be like whatever.
00:36:18.880 --> 00:36:48.800
And so it's kind of like I think it's really about just like knowing what your goals are and being intentional and realistic about like what you can accomplish, because not everyone is cut out to be like a front person who can like make things happen in the industry, but like on the other hand, like if making your perfect album is really important to you, like can you do work on yourself to just be happy that you made the album, whether anybody listens to it or not?
00:36:49.360 --> 00:36:54.320
Because the album is gonna last much longer than your life does.
00:36:54.559 --> 00:37:01.360
And like, is legacy more important to you than like playing in front of tons of people or whatever?
00:37:01.599 --> 00:37:14.239
So I think it kind of really depends from person to person, and that's been a big growth thing for me, too, is that it would it would be really easy for me to be like, oh, like fuck all this industry stuff, like I hate it, like like everything sucks.
00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:22.000
But like I have friends who are like very good at that stuff, who are doing well, and like I don't want to be jealous of them.
00:37:22.559 --> 00:37:33.920
I want to recognize that like I have a different purpose on this earth than to do the route that they are doing, and we can all do our thing as long as we're not like screwing each other over or whatever.
00:37:34.480 --> 00:37:35.360
Therapy is great.
00:37:36.079 --> 00:37:39.519
Therapy is great, it is, it is more people should be in therapy.
00:37:39.840 --> 00:37:40.079
Yep.
00:37:40.559 --> 00:37:41.760
Highly recommend.
00:37:43.840 --> 00:37:51.679
Okay, so what kind of led you into where you are now?
00:37:51.840 --> 00:37:53.119
Like what kind of change?
00:37:53.280 --> 00:38:09.199
I know you said this was around like 2011, 2012, where we kind of left off talking about like what kind of led you to leaving the the large band, like what kind of led you into joining the new stuff?
00:38:09.599 --> 00:38:12.159
I mean, there was a long break in there.
00:38:12.400 --> 00:38:16.480
So the band grew to being like 140 people all around the country.
00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:22.719
And every summer we would get together and do a big tour, and it was just a lot of work for me.
00:38:22.800 --> 00:38:32.960
Like I was writing the songs, uh, booking the tours, like arranging sleeping spaces for everybody, and also trying to keep in touch like safety concerns.
00:38:33.199 --> 00:38:33.519
Yeah.
00:38:33.760 --> 00:38:39.199
Uh looking back, I was not keeping touch of as many safety concerns as I should have.
00:38:39.599 --> 00:39:01.280
But um, it was things like you know, like every place, every city that we played in, not everyone, but some of them I would try to find like a house for us to sleep in that was like a party house, and then a house to us to sleep in that like was a sober house and like a place for us, you know, kind of thing, so people could go where they needed to go.
00:39:01.440 --> 00:39:07.039
And it was just a lot of work, and I got really burnt out, and like I just gave so much of myself.
00:39:07.199 --> 00:39:16.559
Well, no, I I think saying I've given too much of myself is like a little bit of the like self-serving martyr talking, like from inside of me.
00:39:16.719 --> 00:39:21.519
But it's more that I was just exhausted from yeah, you're like you said, burnt out doing this.
00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:23.760
Burning out, it's totally legit.
00:39:24.159 --> 00:39:39.280
I left the band and they continued on for a little bit because I was like, it's really important that this project keeps going so people have the access to like playing, but it didn't last that long because like queer communities blow up all the time.
00:39:39.440 --> 00:39:41.920
So that they do, that they do.
00:39:42.239 --> 00:39:54.559
So that didn't work, and also like things need to come to an end, like zombies don't need to exist, and also just even at that get a dishwashing job, Netflix and chill forever.
00:39:54.719 --> 00:39:56.079
Sounds like a great life.
00:39:56.320 --> 00:39:57.599
Two months into that.
00:39:57.840 --> 00:40:02.000
My husband was like, You're looking kind of mopey.
00:40:02.400 --> 00:40:06.079
You gotta go find an open mic or something, like whatever.
00:40:06.320 --> 00:40:08.800
And the Portland, yeah, he's amazing.
00:40:08.960 --> 00:40:13.039
We've been together for about 15 years, and it's really, it's really nice.
00:40:13.199 --> 00:40:14.559
Yeah, that's amazing.
00:40:15.039 --> 00:40:16.320
Communication.
00:40:17.440 --> 00:40:32.000
But uh, I played an open mic and I met tons of cool people at the open mic, and the Portland music scene like healed so much baggage that I had because it's just like so easy to book a show here.
00:40:32.239 --> 00:40:43.440
Like, you you can just be any nerd without MP3s, and some bar will be like, yeah, you here's a Wednesday.
00:40:43.519 --> 00:40:46.719
Like, you can put something together, and and it's just a really welcome.
00:40:47.039 --> 00:40:52.960
I will say I'm not like super, I'm not as like inspired by the music that is played here.
00:40:53.199 --> 00:41:09.760
Like it's it's very um like like Portland is touted as being a a weird place, but weird music in Portland is often like I'm a tech bro who works for Intel and I have a delay pedal.
00:41:10.000 --> 00:41:11.920
Like that's kind of that's that's what weird is.
00:41:12.239 --> 00:41:12.639
I believe that.
00:41:12.880 --> 00:41:16.960
I lived in Seattle for a little bit and then Yeah, Seattle has a similar vibe, yeah.
00:41:17.519 --> 00:41:25.760
And it's more I would say that the music here is more like riff vibe and dance based.
00:41:26.159 --> 00:41:39.119
And like I care about songs, so there's not as much, but like I would prefer to live in a place where I can play whenever I want versus a place that I am inspired by all of the music.
00:41:39.360 --> 00:41:54.400
And here in Portland is where I met Mackenzie from New Here, and she was just this like she's like 10 years younger than me, and she was just like this younger ukulele redhead playing cute, queer songs.
00:41:54.559 --> 00:42:02.000
I was helping out at this open mic where I played drums for everybody who signed up for the open mic.
00:42:02.079 --> 00:42:05.760
That was kind of like like a feature of the open mic.
00:42:05.920 --> 00:42:10.480
Yeah, it was fun, and I played with her and it went well, and she was like, We should do this again.
00:42:10.559 --> 00:42:11.519
And I was like, sure.
00:42:11.679 --> 00:42:18.559
And then we played another open mic together and she heard me play, and we both became like fans of each other's songs.
00:42:18.880 --> 00:42:34.239
And eventually I kind of became her like stage mom, basically, where like she would because she had never really played shows before, and she'd be like, What do I tell the sound guy that I need, or like whatever.
00:42:34.400 --> 00:42:40.079
And I would be like, you know, you just say you need a microphone, you don't need to bring anything else, like it's fine.
00:42:40.400 --> 00:43:05.840
Um when lockdown happened, she was about to like try to go into a studio to record, and I'm actually glad that that got ruined because we worked together and during lockdown, she like learned to rec like record and produce her first acoustic EP using Band Lab, which is kind of like a phone app that's like garage band but collaborative.
00:43:06.159 --> 00:43:10.960
And um, I like helped her figure out how to do that, and she like did it all on her own.
00:43:11.280 --> 00:43:31.280
And after that, I kind of produced a couple songs for her where she would send me an acoustic song to like a click track, and then I would build a bunch of instruments and arrangements to the song and take out the original demo, and then she would record vocals like on top of it.
00:43:31.760 --> 00:43:42.239
And we just we just like started working together on stuff, and she really like helped me realize that like I could do shit again.
00:43:42.639 --> 00:43:47.360
Like, because she was so she's always been so encouraging of me and my music.
00:43:47.679 --> 00:43:53.280
And when I wanted to leave the band, she was like super happy because she was like, I love your music and I want to hear more of it.
00:43:53.519 --> 00:43:54.960
So, and we're and we're still both.
00:43:55.119 --> 00:43:56.639
We have matching tattoos.
00:43:57.199 --> 00:43:58.239
That's so cute.
00:43:59.199 --> 00:43:59.840
Oh, I love it.
00:44:00.320 --> 00:44:00.559
That.
00:44:00.800 --> 00:44:01.440
Yeah.
00:44:01.679 --> 00:44:03.760
Um, and um, and she's great.
00:44:03.840 --> 00:44:32.320
Like, our lives have kind of gone in what when you're not in a band anymore, you just you don't like talk as much because it's very like project-oriented, but I always have so much love for her, and that has kind of led me now to where I am now is that like I spent so much time in this band that has very like fame-oriented, like get as big as possible goals, which is totally great, and like go for it.
00:44:32.480 --> 00:44:56.559
And when I got out of that, I realized that like I just want things really small because like we were getting to a point where the bigger the venue is, the higher the ticket prices have to be, the more the booking agent doesn't care about you, like all this other stuff, and like that's just not really how I want my music.
00:44:56.719 --> 00:45:06.559
Like, I'm tired of like strategically like setting up my shows so I can invite every person that I know to like fill a room.
00:45:06.800 --> 00:45:07.119
Yeah.
00:45:07.920 --> 00:45:22.239
When instead, like my ideal show right now is three acts, acoustic acts, everybody does a half hour set, chairs, so we can sit down because I'm tired.
00:45:22.480 --> 00:45:23.199
I get it.
00:45:23.519 --> 00:45:29.599
Everybody who's playing invites three to five people, so you have like 10 to 15 people you're playing for.
00:45:29.840 --> 00:45:35.440
Uh two-hour long show ends before nine.
00:45:36.559 --> 00:45:47.599
And and it kind of goes back to like, you know, when I said that I was in high school and we like booked our own show with the help of like a dad who was paying for a BFW haul.
00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:52.639
But that like it we can literally design whatever we want music to be.
00:45:52.719 --> 00:46:01.599
Like, it doesn't have to be like booking is so hard that a lot of bands just kind of like take what they can get because that's what they can see.
00:46:01.679 --> 00:46:16.159
Like they're like, oh, the only shows that we can get are at these bars that go from like 9 to 12 on like a Thursday, and then being like, wow, we can't get anybody to come out and see us at like 11 o'clock at night on a Thursday.
00:46:16.320 --> 00:46:24.000
And it's like, well, you don't have to do that, you just have to be willing to like look for other alternatives or design your own reality.
00:46:24.239 --> 00:46:32.719
And so that's kind of where I'm at right now is like really exploring like what I want my musical reality to look like.
00:46:32.960 --> 00:46:41.679
And it looks like small ass shows that are free, like not even sliding scale donation based, just like no money involved whatsoever.
00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:53.360
And like only playing with acts that I really love their music, not necessarily because they're gonna fill a room or they're connected to the right people or whatever.
00:46:53.519 --> 00:47:13.840
Like, I can't count the number of times I've been in like a rock or pop punk band and have to play with these like douches who have like mega half stacks and just make all sorts of like terrible jokes because we're playing in San Diego and we need an extra 20 people there, and this is the fucking band who said yes.
00:47:14.079 --> 00:47:25.280
And yes, to do this, you have to be willing to like not make money on your music or be okay with not getting wider reach, but like I'm I'm comfortable with that.
00:47:25.360 --> 00:47:36.000
Like I'm I'm happy with whoever hears my music for the rest of time, even if it's only five people, because I get to play shows and that's my favorite part.
00:47:36.239 --> 00:47:38.000
Yeah, I love that.
00:47:38.320 --> 00:47:43.920
So, what brought you into deciding to go to school for social work?
00:47:44.239 --> 00:47:52.559
Yeah, so I started getting into volunteer coordination because I needed a job.
00:47:53.280 --> 00:47:55.360
Hey, gotta do what you gotta do.
00:47:55.599 --> 00:47:56.239
Yeah.
00:47:56.559 --> 00:48:07.199
And um, and I was just lucky to get a volunteer coordination job at because I had been working at this place in Portland called I'm actually not gonna say their name because I don't like them.
00:48:07.440 --> 00:48:11.360
Um don't give them that, don't give them the air time.
00:48:11.920 --> 00:48:23.280
Um, my job was to like dig through the dump for like furniture and other stuff to bring back to like a junk shop, and then it got cleaned up and sold to the community again.
00:48:23.440 --> 00:48:26.719
And it was it was a waste reduction nonprofit.
00:48:26.960 --> 00:48:43.840
My husband and I were big fans of the store, and then he was like, they're hiring like a staff gleaner, which gleaning was always a volunteer thing, and I was like, I need a job and I could be a trash wizard, that's cool.
00:48:44.079 --> 00:48:52.159
And part of this job was working with volunteers a lot, okay, and um, but not many, like maybe like 20.
00:48:52.400 --> 00:49:17.599
That's a lot, and then I was working there, and then I saw this job open up at this like AIDS advocacy nonprofit, HIV and AIDS advocacy nonprofit for a volunteer coordinator, and I was like, and it had like a real salary, like first in my life ever, like health insurance, real salary, desk job, like kind of whatever thing.
00:49:17.760 --> 00:49:20.320
And I was like, I'm gonna try.
00:49:20.719 --> 00:49:27.360
And I was very lucky that their hiring practices are awful because they hired me.
00:49:27.760 --> 00:49:37.039
Like now that I've worked the job, like I don't work there anymore, but as like a year into working the job, I was like, oh, I would not have hired me to do this job.
00:49:37.280 --> 00:49:42.480
Like, I didn't have any experience in like working in a health nonprofit.
00:49:42.639 --> 00:49:44.079
I didn't have experience.
00:49:44.159 --> 00:49:50.800
I I had some experience with working with volunteers, but like this was like a thousand volunteers a year.
00:49:50.960 --> 00:50:03.039
Like I was in charge of so many people, like across 13 departments, and like so and and also like the volunteer structure had been destroyed by COVID, so it had to be built back up.
00:50:03.360 --> 00:50:16.400
And when I take all of that into account, like if I was the hiring person now, I'd be like, we maybe need someone with like a little bit of like larger org experience for this.
00:50:16.800 --> 00:50:26.159
But they were hiring just basically on like vibes and also um You know, vibes aren't always they're sometimes they're a good way to tell somebody, you know.
00:50:26.320 --> 00:50:44.480
Uh like like they got lucky, I did a great job, but like vibes are not a great way to to uh to hire people, and also like I'm a fairly like unchallenging, like gender queer person.
00:50:44.960 --> 00:50:55.119
Like, like when I say unchall, like like there are people who are gender whatever who deal with much more bullshit than I do.
00:50:55.360 --> 00:51:07.519
So, like, like depending on the day of like how I am dressed, like like I'm someone who they could hire and check the box that they got a trans person, but then not have to like really deal with any trans stuff.
00:51:07.679 --> 00:51:10.000
So yeah, they shouldn't have hired me, but they did.
00:51:10.320 --> 00:51:26.639
And I worked at that job for a while, and I spent most of it just kind of advocating for clients because the management like didn't really care about them, and they just cared about like staying open for the most part.
00:51:26.800 --> 00:51:32.480
They like, we need to stay open so we can serve the clients, which like I get, but also sucks.
00:51:32.719 --> 00:51:35.199
Actually, no, I don't get, but whatever.
00:51:35.519 --> 00:51:51.840
So eventually I got laid off, and because of like budget cuts and stuff, that all nonprofits love to blame on Trump, but a lot of nonprofits had these problems before he became president, so you know, fuck them all.
00:51:52.159 --> 00:52:17.440
And I was looking at the job market and I was seeing all of these jobs that I would be perfect for, like lots of like there was volunteer coordinator jobs, there was jobs being like a facilities manager for like uh outreach intake, like helping houseless folks kind of thing, like lots of jobs, like working at a food pantry, kind of like working with volunteers at a food pantry, all stuff.
00:52:17.599 --> 00:52:20.639
And I was like, my body hurts so much.
00:52:21.599 --> 00:52:30.320
Like, and these jobs are all great for me right now, but like what happens, like, and and I'm about to turn 40.
00:52:30.400 --> 00:52:33.360
Like, I'm 41 now, so this was like a couple of years ago.
00:52:33.599 --> 00:52:51.199
What happens in 10 years when I have worked these very particular kinds of physically demanding and emotionally demanding jobs, and that's all I have on my resume, and then I'm 50 and even more broken down than I am now, and the only jobs that I can get are like destroying myself for these costs.
00:52:51.519 --> 00:52:52.320
That is very true.
00:52:52.480 --> 00:52:55.199
So I was like, let's go back to school.
00:52:55.679 --> 00:52:59.280
Perfect time with the purpose of being a therapist.
00:52:59.519 --> 00:53:06.800
Like, to be a therapist, you can either go back for a social work license or you can go for like a counseling degree.
00:53:07.199 --> 00:53:19.760
And at the school that I am attending, the social work program takes in about 300 students in the cohort, and the counseling program takes in 12.
00:53:20.000 --> 00:53:21.119
Oh, okay.
00:53:21.360 --> 00:53:30.639
And that's why I chose the social work program, is because I just felt I have a fairly like abnormal academic background.
00:53:30.960 --> 00:53:35.920
So I didn't want to try for the competitive program.
00:53:36.239 --> 00:53:41.519
So I was like, I can get in the social work program, it can be great, and then just be a therapist afterwards.
00:53:41.760 --> 00:53:53.199
And yeah, and and also like I've been a tarot reader in the past, and like, yeah, that was like when I stopped touring and was like, what am I gonna do with my life right now?
00:53:53.360 --> 00:53:59.840
And I was like, I just really want to get paid to be nice to people, like that's like how I want to live my life.
00:54:00.000 --> 00:54:14.880
But like tarot reading is hard because getting clients is hard, but also like pricing yourself in a way that is both supportive to your life but accessible to community is like really difficult.
00:54:15.280 --> 00:54:22.480
And therapist is like you you kind of get to do that stuff, but insurance pays for it.
00:54:22.800 --> 00:54:45.119
Very true, and like everyone's looking for a therapist, so that that's what led me to the social work stuff, and like my goal is to be a therapist so I can like only work a couple days a week, and then because my basic needs are taken care of, I can use the rest of my time to do like I do a lot of like volunteer work.
00:54:45.280 --> 00:54:56.000
My dream is to like go to social work, adjacent and mutual aid groups and say, would you like a volunteer coordinator for free?
00:54:56.400 --> 00:55:06.000
Like that's like and to have like and have like uh like five different groups who just need someone for like five to ten hours a week.
00:55:06.239 --> 00:55:06.559
Yeah.
00:55:07.119 --> 00:55:14.000
But because my basic needs are taken care of, like I can afford to like do that.
00:55:14.559 --> 00:55:29.519
And then on the side do some like just like advocacy stuff that I think advocacy stuff or kind of research work that normally wouldn't be able to happen because nobody would pay for it.
00:55:29.840 --> 00:55:36.719
But because I don't care about getting paid, as long as my basic needs are taken care of, then I can do them.
00:55:36.880 --> 00:55:38.960
So that's kind of like the goal.
00:55:39.199 --> 00:55:44.960
Um, and I think that all my work and music kind of like led to that.
00:55:45.440 --> 00:55:51.039
Like when I got the volunteer coordinator job, like my parents were like, this makes sense.
00:55:51.119 --> 00:56:02.960
Like this actually makes like like like you ran a band that had like 140 people all across the country, and like that's volunteer work, and like DIY shows is like running volunteers or whatever.
00:56:03.039 --> 00:56:25.519
So like that job actually made the rest of my life make much more sense because it it took all this experience and put it into kind of like a job that like I was doing something other than playing music, and then that led me to social work because I was mostly working with social workers at that job.
00:56:25.840 --> 00:56:26.880
Got that, got it.
00:56:27.039 --> 00:56:31.360
Okay, but the tarot card reading that is interesting too.
00:56:31.760 --> 00:56:34.159
Do you still do that for fun?
00:56:34.480 --> 00:56:40.880
Yeah, I do it just for myself and like for friends sometimes, and I use it for songwriting a lot too.
00:56:41.119 --> 00:56:44.719
Like one one of my albums is very tarot based.
00:56:44.960 --> 00:56:49.760
Two of my albums, three, most of my albums now are like pretty tarot based.
00:56:49.920 --> 00:57:08.239
Sometimes when I do sets, I will make a list of songs and like match them up to tarot cards and then decide my set as I'm playing by like pulling a card, and I use tarot to like communicate with my different personas that I perform as.
00:57:08.639 --> 00:57:09.360
I love that.
00:57:09.599 --> 00:57:15.599
Like I introduced myself as Rune at the beginning of this, and that is like one person that I am.
00:57:15.760 --> 00:57:21.360
It's kind of like a David Bowie thing where it's like a performance persona, but it's it's it's really just me.
00:57:21.679 --> 00:57:29.199
And Gregory James McKillop is kind of the political folk punk like protest song kind of person.
00:57:29.519 --> 00:57:37.519
After I figured out like gender stuff and kind of wanted to like throw Gregory in the trash for a little bit, a little bit being like 10 years.
00:57:37.760 --> 00:57:54.960
I became Rune, which is which rune is kind of like a um like a spirit, kind of like a glitch pop spirit, and it stands for um ritual utilizing underused nightmare energy.
00:57:55.119 --> 00:58:10.559
It started off the first couple albums were very like Lady Gaga monster era, kind of like dirty, swampy glitch pop kind of stuff, and uh like you know, costumes, kind of like pop diva kind of stuff.
00:58:10.719 --> 00:58:18.960
I don't I don't do her as much anymore because she needs a big stage and big lights.
00:58:19.280 --> 00:58:38.800
And I don't I don't always get those opportunities, but also like trying to wrestle with like how do I balance my like anti-capitalist values with like high production value is like a a discussion that I'm having in my mind of like how to make that work.
00:58:39.039 --> 00:58:49.119
But also just for the past eight years, I haven't had the mental focus to like get in the Ableton workshop and like make beeps and boobs to like make the stuff happen.
00:58:49.280 --> 00:58:59.840
And then more recently, um I have a band which is they're all bands, but they're just me, called Bintabia Beacon Bezalel.
00:59:00.239 --> 00:59:23.360
And uh Bintabia is a very like uh surrealist, like metaphor poetic um ballad, like folk ballad kind of performance that's very influenced by like Jewish witchcraft and like super long, super long nonsensical songs.
00:59:23.599 --> 00:59:43.760
Um I write the songs by spending a year just gathering one-liner lyrics into a giant document, and then I shuffle the lines all around and kind of section them off, and then spend the next number of years kind of figuring out what they mean.
00:59:44.000 --> 00:59:52.800
And that's a very kind of like like Gregory will play like four shows a month, yeah, if given the chance.
00:59:53.039 --> 00:59:58.000
Bintabia gets more powerful the less shows that she plays.
00:59:58.320 --> 01:00:02.239
Like, and and I used to try to balance them a little bit more.
01:00:02.400 --> 01:00:06.079
Rune isn't Rune is just taking a nap, is not playing shows right now.
01:00:06.239 --> 01:00:19.199
But I tried to balance Gregory and Bintabia for a while because Gregory is much more like an accessible performance than Bentabia because it's like kind of protest folk standards where you sing along.
01:00:19.280 --> 01:00:23.679
It's really easy to kind of like catch on to what's happening, especially right now in the country.
01:00:23.840 --> 01:00:30.880
A lot of people hear some of these songs and they're like, yeah, like you like Gregory plays shows and then gets invited to play more shows.
01:00:31.039 --> 01:00:34.639
Okay, Bintabia plays shows and everyone is just confused.
01:00:34.800 --> 01:00:37.199
Like they're like delightfully confused.
01:00:37.280 --> 01:00:41.760
Like people enjoy seeing the shows, but Bintabia doesn't get asked to play shows.
01:00:41.920 --> 01:00:46.800
And for a while, I got sad kind of on Bentabia's behalf.
01:00:46.880 --> 01:00:57.760
And whenever Gregory would get a show, I would like book a show for Bentabia until eventually like I was playing like too many shows, and Bentabia was like, stop booking me.
01:00:57.920 --> 01:01:02.320
Just like I don't need this, this doesn't feel good, I don't want it.
01:01:02.559 --> 01:01:11.280
Gregory can play as many shows as he wants, Bentavia doesn't want to, because Gregory can kind of slot into any show and play.
01:01:11.440 --> 01:01:16.800
Like, I still I kind of try to stay away from bars for the most part, but like I can do it.
01:01:17.039 --> 01:01:25.199
Bintabia needs like very specific like focus, mood, like background.
01:01:25.360 --> 01:01:28.000
The other acts have to be like very particular.
01:01:28.159 --> 01:01:35.840
Like Gregory is the act where like if I meet a new songwriter who I think just needs a shot, like they can open for Gregory.
01:01:36.079 --> 01:01:39.039
Bintabia doesn't give a fuck about the new songwriters.
01:01:39.440 --> 01:01:40.639
Like okay.
01:01:41.199 --> 01:01:50.000
Um and and that's because when I do a Bintabia set, the audience doesn't really matter, even though I need them to be listening.
01:01:50.239 --> 01:02:02.239
It's like Bintabia sets are a ritual that I use to reach like the deepest parts of myself, and the audience is like the ritual participants that like need to be there to witness.
01:02:02.639 --> 01:02:22.719
And then like rune is just like high concept like diva pop bullshit that I hope to do again, but I just haven't, I haven't like um I haven't been in the space to like make the music, and all my old rune music is like out of my range now.
01:02:22.800 --> 01:02:26.159
Um, and I can't I can't like quite hit the notes anymore, which is fine.
01:02:26.239 --> 01:02:27.280
We let go of things.
01:02:27.440 --> 01:02:30.480
Zombies aren't needed, like it's fine, everything needs an end.
01:02:30.719 --> 01:03:01.440
But those are like my three main like projects, and I will sometimes use tarot to kind of like communicate with those parts of myself to like figure out what they need to be happy, and it's really nice to have all these different outlets because for a long time, like when I moved to Portland, I like I introduced myself to everybody as rune because that's like the name that I was trying to go by, and like etc.
01:03:01.760 --> 01:03:14.960
And under Rune, I was kind of like like Rune was trying to shoulder both Rune and Gregory and Bentabia, because even though I had like thrown out Gregory, Gregory was still like in here.
01:03:15.519 --> 01:03:21.360
And Gregory songs and Bentabia songs don't fit on a set together.
01:03:21.599 --> 01:03:35.440
So like you would yeah, I would have to like decide like, am I gonna play my like folky punky songs or am I gonna play my like more femme, like kind of graceful songs, kind of whatever?
01:03:35.679 --> 01:03:37.360
And like it's all very based.
01:03:37.519 --> 01:04:01.920
And and these days, like I don't feel dysphoria that much, but like for me, dysphoria is actually a really helpful thing because when I'm performing, if I perform, like if I have a new song that I'm writing and I'm not sure if it is a Gregory or a Bentabia song, if I perform a Bentabia song while I'm Gregory, that's when the dysphoria comes up.
01:04:02.000 --> 01:04:12.480
Or if I'm performing a Gregory song as because it doesn't fit, and that's actually like really useful information for me, because then I'm like, oh, this is a Bentabia song.
01:04:12.800 --> 01:04:38.960
And so, like, so yeah, it's just I use tarot to communicate with like these different parts, and it but what I was saying is it I realized what I was saying is that since splitting them, it has allowed all of them to like go deeper into themselves because when I was squishing everybody together, nobody could really like lean into the energy of what they were trying to accomplish.
01:04:39.199 --> 01:05:26.639
But now like Gregory is just like this like kind of upstart, plucky guy who plays acoustic guitar and it's like showmanship kind of thing, and I'm able to do that more and like kind of like almost summon my younger self as like an updated, almost kind of drag performance of like my younger masculine folk punk performance in the same way that like and and then Bentabia is able to just be like a fucking sorceress stone of just kind of like I don't care what any of you are doing, I am playing my music and like yeah, um, and it and if it feels great having split them all up and it's great.
01:05:26.880 --> 01:05:33.360
That sounds like I'm gonna honestly that sounds like it'd be really fulfilling too, because you're not having to put yourself into one little box.
01:05:33.599 --> 01:05:39.280
You're able to, you know, if you feel like doing this one day, you've got somebody that fits into that.
01:05:39.440 --> 01:05:48.000
If you feel like doing this, you don't yeah, you don't you're not pigeonholing yourself, which is great because as creative people, like I don't play music, but I'm a creative person.
01:05:48.159 --> 01:05:49.280
I do like to write.
01:05:49.440 --> 01:05:52.239
I'm a writer, I would say that's like my biggest thing.
01:05:53.119 --> 01:06:02.079
And feeling stuck in one thing because you've put yourself in this box because then if you do Want to branch out from that, well then what?
01:06:02.639 --> 01:06:07.840
It's not gonna perform as well or it's not gonna be as well liked because it's not gonna fit in this.
01:06:08.320 --> 01:06:12.000
So I'm sure it's amazing because you can you're not stuck.
01:06:12.239 --> 01:06:12.719
It is.
01:06:12.960 --> 01:06:22.800
However, I was only able to make the decision to do these things because I don't care about being a very easy box that I can present to people.
01:06:23.119 --> 01:06:30.559
And if I wanted to have more of a career, like a professional career as a musician, this wouldn't be possible.
01:06:31.039 --> 01:06:36.480
Yeah, I would need to I would need to be able to have the the one sentence that you can hand over.
01:06:36.800 --> 01:06:36.960
Yeah.
01:06:37.119 --> 01:06:38.159
Yeah, that makes sense.
01:06:38.320 --> 01:06:41.440
Um with Ventabia, do you do like witchy stuff?
01:06:41.519 --> 01:06:43.840
Like, are you interested in witchy stuff in general too?
01:06:44.159 --> 01:06:44.559
Oh yeah.
01:06:44.719 --> 01:06:46.960
Yeah, I mean I can't really show you.
01:06:47.039 --> 01:06:49.199
This is my altar that's like Okay.
01:06:49.360 --> 01:06:51.199
I kind of suspected I could see it back there.
01:06:51.280 --> 01:06:52.800
I've been looking at it while we were talking.
01:06:52.880 --> 01:06:54.559
I was like, what is what we got back there?
01:06:54.719 --> 01:06:57.360
This is my sailor moon.
01:06:57.440 --> 01:06:58.880
Uh oh, I see that.
01:06:59.039 --> 01:06:59.599
I love that.
01:06:59.760 --> 01:07:03.119
What about do you do you like astrology and stuff like that too?
01:07:03.360 --> 01:07:05.840
Um, I like astrology, but I'm not good at it.
01:07:05.920 --> 01:07:21.920
Um, I have a really close friend who is like an expert at astrology, so I get to like chit-chat about stuff, but I know like the most I know is that like um I'm a Leo Cap Aquarius, which means martyr, martyr, martyr.
01:07:22.239 --> 01:07:25.599
Oh, that's oh so I'm a Leo Capricorn Capricorn.
01:07:26.000 --> 01:07:26.639
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:07:26.880 --> 01:07:28.639
Yeah, so you're you're fucked.
01:07:28.880 --> 01:07:30.239
Yeah, no, I am.
01:07:30.480 --> 01:07:39.599
No, I am, and then uh my wife is an Aquarius, I think she's also a Capricorn moon, and then a Pisces rising.
01:07:39.840 --> 01:07:40.400
Yeah.
01:07:40.880 --> 01:07:46.239
Yeah, I don't I don't get that much into astrology because I don't have like the brain capacity for it.
01:07:46.800 --> 01:07:50.239
But I do, I love witchy stuff, like I like writing spells.
01:07:50.400 --> 01:07:54.800
Um, I'm working on right now a ritualslash performance.
01:07:55.039 --> 01:07:58.400
First, it's gonna be a ritual, and then I'm gonna do it as a performance later.
01:07:58.719 --> 01:08:01.679
Um are you familiar with like what scrying is?
01:08:01.920 --> 01:08:02.159
Yes.
01:08:02.320 --> 01:08:02.719
Oh yeah.
01:08:02.960 --> 01:08:03.519
Okay, cool.
01:08:03.920 --> 01:08:08.559
For the audience, scrying is when you look in a thing and you get visions, anyways.
01:08:08.639 --> 01:08:10.480
It's more complicated than that, but who cares?
01:08:10.559 --> 01:08:11.280
You can google it.
01:08:11.519 --> 01:08:13.039
That's a good that's a shorthand version.
01:08:13.679 --> 01:08:15.760
That's that's a box that I can hand to somebody.
01:08:16.399 --> 01:08:36.640
Um so I've collected a black mirror and a black tarot, uh, uh a black and white glow in the dark tarot deck and an obsidian orb, a black candle, a black candle holder, a black journal, and kind of like a white pen, whatever.
01:08:36.880 --> 01:08:55.439
Um, and I want to do I wanna I wanna um kind of put the the black mirror kind of in front and then candle and then like meditate on the candle reflection, the the late candle reflection to scry.
01:08:55.600 --> 01:09:34.319
And what I wanna do for a performance is I want to get a very small kind of hallway of a room that I can maybe fit like 10 people in, and then do a performance where I set up the the mirror and the candle and all the other stuff, and then but like angle it in a way so that people can see me perform, but that I'm talking, I'm singing to the mirror, but they can also see my reflection in the mirror, and then um light the candle, turn off all the lights, and then just kind of like manifest a set of new songs live like in front of an audience.
01:09:34.720 --> 01:09:35.840
That sounds amazing.
01:09:36.079 --> 01:09:37.520
If you ever do that, invite me.
01:09:37.600 --> 01:09:39.039
I will I will come up to Portland.
01:09:39.119 --> 01:09:39.920
That sounds amazing.
01:09:40.079 --> 01:09:42.319
Like, that is totally up my alley.
01:09:42.479 --> 01:09:43.760
Like, I will be so into it.
01:09:44.000 --> 01:09:51.600
I mean, it takes a little bit of planning in that like I don't think I like I'm not a great guitarist.
01:09:51.760 --> 01:09:56.239
Like, I consider myself to be a good, like a great songwriter.
01:09:56.399 --> 01:09:59.520
Okay, and I'm a I think I'm a great performer.
01:09:59.840 --> 01:10:02.560
Guitar, like not your forte.
01:10:03.199 --> 01:10:13.039
It takes me like if I'm gonna write like a lead guitar part, like a solo, it takes me one month per measure, like to write the stuff.
01:10:13.199 --> 01:10:16.239
Like it's just like a lot of math that I don't know how to do.
01:10:17.039 --> 01:10:19.039
I'm not like a jammer.
01:10:19.600 --> 01:10:24.479
Um, so I can't just like play my normal chords.
01:10:24.720 --> 01:10:25.039
Okay.
01:10:25.199 --> 01:10:29.520
Or like I don't have enough guitar knowledge to just kind of like intuit a song.
01:10:29.680 --> 01:10:35.199
Like, even if even if the spirit is speaking to me through the scry mirror, yeah.
01:10:35.359 --> 01:10:42.239
Like I I just don't have the physical capacity and like knowledge to be able to translate what it's trying to tell me.
01:10:42.399 --> 01:10:54.319
I'm normally very against like uh different guitar tunings, like when people tune like open tunings and stuff, and kind of everything sounds very pretty.
01:10:54.479 --> 01:11:13.199
I'm usually very against those because I I I think like I have I have two friends who perform well in it and they're like amazing, but most people when they do it, I think everything kind of sounds kind of same-y because it's just like all these chords sound the same and every song sounds the same, and like, etc.
01:11:13.760 --> 01:11:39.039
But this is the one instance where I'm probably gonna pull out some kind of open tuning because then it kind of frees me up to like be able to translate whatever like musical inspiration is coming from the scry session to just be able to kind of like noodle on the guitar without thinking about it and and just kind of like vocalate whatever inspiration is coming to me.
01:11:39.199 --> 01:11:40.720
Um, so I do stuff like that.
01:11:40.880 --> 01:11:54.079
Recently, a friend of mine turns their house into an art gallery for like a whole month, and they invite like a lot of community artists to come in and put stuff, and like every Sunday they'll have open hours.
01:11:54.159 --> 01:12:03.359
Um, and it's so beautiful, and it's supposed to be kind of like a low barrier way to both show your art and see art kind of thing.
01:12:03.600 --> 01:12:12.159
And every time they do it, I get to do like a little show that is usually this is a Bintabia always plays at their house, it's a very Bintabia space.
01:12:12.319 --> 01:12:19.920
And I did a show where I made like an activity book, like a little zine that had like activities in it.
01:12:20.239 --> 01:12:32.640
And when you open the book, on the left side was the lyrics of whatever song I was playing, and on the right side was several like questions and boxes and prompts to like write stuff in.
01:12:33.039 --> 01:13:39.439
And the point was for people to like like write down or circle lines that they were inspired by or thoughts that they were having, and I would do like four songs, and then during the intermission, everybody would get up with their activity book and go look at all the art and then like uh put like whatever thoughts they had while they were listening to the song in context with art that they found, and then come back, and then another set, and then at the end of it, I got like 25 zines full of writing about my music from people who wrote and it this was maybe like eight months ago, and I've been working on taking all of the zines and kind of like compiling the data into like one case study zine, and I recorded the set um to so that I could make the zine and then and then uh produce cassette tapes that have the sets that the set that I did and then mail them to the people who came to the show.
01:13:39.680 --> 01:13:58.640
So just like a lot of stuff like that is like what I and I also like record every show that I do and then I bring it home and I make five tapes of that set and then bring those tapes to the next show and give them out, and then record that show and then make five tapes and then give them out.
01:13:58.880 --> 01:13:59.840
That's so smart.
01:14:00.079 --> 01:14:05.600
So just lots of games, like I just really like playing little games, yeah.
01:14:05.840 --> 01:14:07.680
Yeah, that is so cool.
01:14:07.920 --> 01:14:10.319
I like I I'm I'm so serious.
01:14:10.399 --> 01:14:14.000
So if you ever decide if you ever actually are able to do that, invite me.
01:14:14.079 --> 01:14:14.800
I will 100%.
01:14:15.199 --> 01:14:21.760
I love Portland and I I I love going up to the PNW, so I will I will come up.
01:14:21.920 --> 01:14:22.640
I'll let you know.
01:14:22.720 --> 01:14:23.039
Yeah.
01:14:23.279 --> 01:14:24.640
That is totally my vibe.
01:14:24.800 --> 01:14:27.039
I will be so into that.
01:14:28.880 --> 01:14:31.680
But yeah, it was so nice talking with you too.
01:14:32.159 --> 01:14:34.880
Yay! It was nice talking with you too.
01:14:35.279 --> 01:14:37.520
Thank you so much for coming on my show.
01:14:38.479 --> 01:14:39.680
Thanks for having me.
01:14:39.840 --> 01:14:42.159
I I like it when I get to chit chat.
01:14:42.560 --> 01:14:45.359
Thank you for listening to this episode of From URL to IRL.
01:14:45.520 --> 01:14:51.680
If you enjoyed this conversation, make sure to follow along for more stories about music, connection, and the people who bring us together.
01:14:51.920 --> 01:14:56.079
You can find me on social media at from URL to IRL Podcast.
01:14:56.319 --> 01:14:58.000
Maybe I'll see you in the crowd someday.