FKN Classics Double! Christian Köhlert - Matrix Paradoxes | Mark Weinstein - Surveillance Era

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Enjoy these back to back classic Forbidden Knowledge News episodes. Today,
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I want to welcome Christian Celert. He is a media artist, author,
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and practitioner of creative homeopathy. His book and research focuses
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on the nature of reality and possibility that we are
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indeed living in a simulation. Christian, welcome, How you doing
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doing well?
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Thank you very much for the invitation.
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Yes, welcome. I'm very much looking forward to this. I
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really enjoy your work. What we're going to be discussing
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today is something that I think we're collectively trying to
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gain an understanding of the nature of our reality, and
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we relate things usually to our current understandings. Right now,
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we're in a technological age, and there are many that
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consider our reality to be closer to a computer simulation
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than anything else at this time. I find these theories
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fast and very plausible, but I also have a spiritual
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perspective that may have similar implications to a simulated reality.
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But I'm really looking forward to learning more about your theories.
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But this is your first time on. Tell us a
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little bit about yourself, your journey, what brought you to
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this work.
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Well, yeah, as we call it in the alternative media
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or The true for movement, right is waking up, is
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waking up moments that we experience, you know. And my
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waking up moment was ninet eleven. Obviously something didn't feel right,
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and the deeper I was digging into it, I realized, Okay,
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there's a big lie that is collectively told. Everybody seems
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to be on it, and if they lie about this,
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then you probably lie about many other things things I
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learned at school and about reality. Eventually that came up
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later as well. So I started off with that, and
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of course I started reading books. Back in the days,
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there was no telegram or YouTube in the sense as
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we have it right now, so I was reading all
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kinds of stuff. I was reading basically what you would
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consider that David Iyke of Germany, this is young Van Hesing.
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But later I also got the books of David Dyke,
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so that already got me into this. Okay, there is
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more than the physical realm, but basically, okay, there is
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something going on. We are in a big deception here
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one way lad another. And I was so interested in
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that that I became part of the alternative media scene.
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And at that point there was an online television channel.
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Way before YouTube became popular. It was called Secret TV,
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and I became I became a chief editor of that.
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So and then this realm. There were so many other
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interesting people. We have other editors or people that contributed
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content and invited interesting people with their concepts and so on.
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And I got puzzled pieces from all over the place.
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And you know, some you can immediately put it in
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into your bigger picture. Some things you just put aside
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and say, oh, interesting, I see there is some reasoning
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behind it, but I don't see like it in a
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bigger picture yet. So now that was my introduction into
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the whole thing, and from there on it got wild
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weasel all over the place.
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Well, were there any profoundly specific events that led you
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to write the matrix hypothesis?
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Ah? Yeah, that is actually like, I mean, the notion
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that we are living in an kind of virtual construct.
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I'm not past the simulation theorist. You have to acknowledge
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simulation theory because it's a logic thing to look at it.
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You know that our reality could be something that is
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done in a quantum computer. Maybe that is definitely a
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path you can go. But I got introduced into that
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also on a spiritual level, I got first introduced into
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Vedic philosophy and the concept of maya. You know if
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my first idol for my second book was actually the
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Maya hypothesis, But then my German publishers said, you know,
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people see that in a shell. Then they say, okay,
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it's about the Central American ancient culture, so they don't
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have the association with the Vedic or the Sanskrit term maya,
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which means basically the cosmic illusion. So I knew about
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that that from this ancient philosophy, reality is considered an illusion.
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You know, it's made by the singularity, the Brahman and
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all the individual practals of this oneness play a game
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in here called Adman's you know Adman. I don't know
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if this is a term in rural anyhow. So I
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already was into this, and then I got people into
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my life that were really deeply concerned in science. One
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of them is the Top Words. He's a German author
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and he was one of the pioneers that saw, look,
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what is described in the ancient Texan and ancient wisdom
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teaching is something we can also address just from a
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different angle, which is a scientific angle. So that was
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a movie we made in two thousand and nine. It
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was called Revolution twenty twelve, and out of that was
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like a remix, that's what's called solar Revolution. And yeah,
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and then we already addressed back then that reality is
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a kind of simulation, and that simulation hypothesis or simulation
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theory as we have today is a great analogy. It
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doesn't necessarily mean we are in a physical construct in
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a sense that you know we are, you know, we
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are an artificial reality. But somewhere outside of that there
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is a computer, quantum computer, which is made of atoms
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and physical stuff, and that just just generates our reality.
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But it's a great analogy for our conceptual mind to
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get a grasp on that.
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I agree with you on so many points on that,
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especially instead of looking at the way our modern technology
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operates ai computer systems, that we should be looking for
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answers from our ancient past and the understandings that they had.
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That's what you did. You looked at the Vedic scriptures,
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to her Meticism, to Platonics. Tell us a little bit
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about what you found in these ancient texts that could
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indicate that our reality is more of a spiritual matrix.
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Well, of course, the ancient didn't have this analogy or
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this symbolism. I mean, the universe seems to reflect itself,
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you know, in fractals, in small things. That doesn't mean
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it the small thing that is presented to us within
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the matrix meaning simulations. That doesn't mean that our reality
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is the simulation. But it gives us a close approximate.
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So we especially at the age at the HBr right now,
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the end of a So maybe that is to help
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us to understand where we are in and who we
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are in a bigger context of things. And of course,
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I guess if if Platon, for example, Platon you would
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say in English, if we wouldn't have had his cave
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anology to make his people understand this, this reality is
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not reality, but we are just looking at the shadows
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at the wall, he would probably use something different. He
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would probably also use like look, imagine people are growing
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up with a headset on, you know, like like this
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virtual reality headset on the on their heads, and they
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never experienced something different, so they believe that the reality
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they perceive in their virtual reality reality headsets is what
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they what reality is. But once you take it off,
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it's like going out of the cave. And then you
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realize there's much more than just what has been you know,
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made you believe as reality. But of course he didn't
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have virtual realities as in a knowlogy to make people understand.
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So he used the cave anology, which is probably one
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of the most profound ideas at this point and it
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deeply influenced Western philosophy even today. To answer your question,
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I can't give you anything specific. As I said, there
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is no technology reference in the ancient You might interpreted
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many things in a technological sense, but from the beginning
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it always has been a spiritual thing. But we'll be
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talking about terms, you know, terms like spirituality technology from
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the understanding, or natural or artificial. That's a good thing, right,
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So we look at this tree, it's a natural thing.
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We look at this building or this car, it's artificial.
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But looking from outside of the construct, whatever, it is
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a spiritual thing, a mind constructed the Brahma in order
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to infinite creat or created to experience it itself. Everything
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is made of the same substance, if you will. It's
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so artificial and natural. It's just a perspective we have
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within the construct because we see that it has different
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qualities to us. But in the end, all these terms
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are very limited.
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You know, I'd love to get your thoughts on some
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of the things that we've experienced throughout history, such as
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encounters with non human intelligences, experiences that transcend the physical,
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contact experiences receiving cosmic information, contact with angels and demons.
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What do you consider this to be messengers of the matrix?
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Are they part of the system? Are they part of
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our consciousness?
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It's a good question. It's always a yeah. It's how
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you look at it makes the difference, right if you
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if you see it all in singularity, meaning that the
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one is behind all of that. I mean, there's just
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one consciousness, like an ocean that divides itself into little
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you know, the little drops of water that travel their
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own way, but they are still part of this singularity,
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and the whatever journey each and everyone takes, it will
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come back to this one becoming the one ocean again.
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So if you look at that there is just one consciousness,
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there's actually just one person sitting here experiencing ourselves in
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this density and this matrics or maya as two separate beings.
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But in the end, there's just one consciousness. And of
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course from this point of view, you could say aliens
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and whatever intervenes in here, I would not say aliens.
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I would basically always say it's interdimensional beings and they
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are part of our consciousness. But on the greater if you,
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you know, take this, what happens here in a sense
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of this is our reality at least, even if it's
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an illusion, it's our daily experience. And if I make
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contact with those beings, which I also have my own
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experience with that not into depth like some other people
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might have. But then of course there is in within
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this dualistic realm, we have the third density, as do
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or material would refer to or hidden hand. Then there
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is a deep, deeply embedded dualistic thing. So of course
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those beings coming in can be beneficial to us, teaching
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us some understanding. But also there are other beings coming
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in whying you know, like to this, you know, bring
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more distortions or guide us of course. So yeah, so
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in a way, definitely there is influence from that, and we,
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I guess, we are tested on our discernment whether we
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take help if there is real help available. But real
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help is always help for self help, never like okay,
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just eat popcorn, and we beam you up. I guess
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that's not the reason for the game. And on the
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other side, there is no question about that there are
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dark or entities arcons as you would call them, in
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and the Agnostic tradition that are also playing on this
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field here.
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Since you mentioned the Gnostic tradition and the arcons, I
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have a very similar under standing of the nature of
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reality that is all part of our consciousness, that it's
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here to guide us, and we learn from the polarities
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of light and dark no matter what they are here
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for our I guess you could say spiritual evolution. But
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some modern understandings of narcissism talk about how we are
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trapped in this reality and the archons are jailers, are
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rulers that keep us here and feed off of our energy.
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I don't share that perspective, but it's become a popular
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emerging perspective amongst many people who are looking into this stuff.
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What are your thoughts on that and how do you
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relate gnosissism to this matrix hypothesis.
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Yeah, I'm aware, and I also talked about it in
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my book. Because you have to talk about it like
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you have to talk about to me. Nation theory, as
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Bostroom or others suggested. So I'm aware there's this notion
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that we are trapped in here and that there are
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dark entities doing their work to make sure it stays
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that way is not necessarily wrong, but it's also not.
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That doesn't mean that this is the full picture. So
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of course, if you're playing a game, no matter what
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game it is, it doesn't it's not necessarily needs to
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be a game. You watch a Bond movie or whatever
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movie where there is a hero, you can't have that
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story without a villain. You don't have to. You can't
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have that story with some kind of obstacle that pushes
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against it. If it would be so easy to get
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out of the matrix, of course no one would be here.
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Probably they would say, what a boring, boring game. So
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of course you need to have some negative force to
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have this game here. So they serve their their role
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here and they're not I'm sure they are here. But
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if you it's also a question how much you permit
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them to manipulate into your life. And that's a whole
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different different story about whereas your own vibration. So it's
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it's like here, you know your your your shields. Your
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your shield that keeps them away is where are your
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own faults? How love loving are them? Are your faults?
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And how how much you see the unity and everything
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or how you how much are you separated by all
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these programs into Party A or Party B, this whole
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polarization of we against them. And so there's if you
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are into those programs, if you already got got caught,
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then it's easy for them to attach, but for them
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to attach on you and facilitate even more manipulation. So
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that's right. So the story Gnostics, you can say it
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is right, but it's not the full story.
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Let's take a look at some of the things that
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have been observed and people can observe for themselves, such
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as strange anomalies like the Mandela effect paradoxes throughout history.
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What is your understanding of what is happening with these
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strange paradoxes.
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Yeah, that, yeah, the Mandela and particularly was part of
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of the book. You need to discuss that, of course.
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And yeah, I experienced that myself on a personal level,
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not in you know, like oh yeah, I also watched
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as a kid Star Wars and realized, oh it's not
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I'm your father anymore. Yeah, or kluek, I'm your father.
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So it's pretty much the same, like in the German version,
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or my my favorite one with the with the brackets
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of Lucy in an moon Breaker talking about Bond movies.
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So that's that's my favorite because at the time I
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watched it consciously, I had brackets myself, and I was
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just thinking about how those who would how it would
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look like if they start kissing, you know, what kind
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of entanglement could happen there. So so I you know,
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so I had a really strong association. Right now, I
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see there are no braces anymore with with Lucy. I
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guess it was her name. Yeah, so something is wrong.
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And I also experienced on personal levels. So what we
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can deduct from that is it's like, yeah, there are
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manipulation within the matrics all the time, to a degree
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that we don't usually notice it. So there are edits
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that because the whole construct is full of paradoxes, you
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already seed it on a scientific level, the wave particle
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duality for example, or the other things that happened there
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little castal effects with the layed Choy quantom eraser experiment.
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If you really you know, if you're brainy and that direction,
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and you really want to get nut that on a
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scientific level, you want to just get the paradoxes. Really,
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you like to make your own investigations. Then start with
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those weird experiments where things happen that are paradoxes and
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we cannot explain.
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You also write about some historical paradoxes. Could you give
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a couple of examples that folks can go and research themselves.
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I mean, people are fighting over paradoxes. Let's take the
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standard discussion that we have in alternative circles. Is the
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earth flat or is it round? The thing is it
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can be both at the same time, depending on how
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it is rendered. I'm using terminology that you know from
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computer games. How it is individual rendered, And of course
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we are co creators as as all these individual pieces
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or fractals of the one. We have also the ability
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to create our reality band probabilities. And of course if
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I have the notion the earth is flat, then I
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automatically attract evidences and circumstances that make me even more
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believe in this in this idea. If I'm the other
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way around, then you know the usual guy. Of course,
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you're living on a spinning thing in space. So then
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of course you will always be get information or perception
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that is yeah, that works with it.
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And this could also fit into the possibility that our
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timeline as a whole shifts and what has occurred in
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our history is malleable and subject to change, things like tartaria,
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mud flood, certain cyclical resets. It seems like we have
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different understandings of these as time goes on, and the
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actual historical documentation at times seems to change absolutely.
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That would be my next classical example. History in general
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is not what we think from my perspective, it's not
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like a linear evolution of time, and that is one
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crisp thing. No it is, and it's happening all the time,
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and so there are paradoxes and overlapping timelines, at least
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from the evidence we can still we can have hold on,
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you know, we can look up in the Internet or
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different books or whatever. But what really happened in the
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past is part of the projection or part of the
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simulation or these are all terms that come from simulation hypothesis.
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But you know, but I guess reality as a spiritual
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construct works on the same level or with the same
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kind of means or mechanism. So yeah, so I wouldn't
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I would I have of course, if we talk about history,
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I have my own thing or my own history or
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idea about history, which I think makes most sense. But
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I not discuss with anyone when he comes up with
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new evidence. And look, if you look at this book
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and that book, then it's a whole different twist. And
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I would say, yes, this reality could also be happening
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at the same time or this past. But the past
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is like it's part of the illusion. And instead of
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if we can learn something from the past, whatever past
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we see or we feel is the most probable past
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that from our research, if you can learn something from that, fine,
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But this whole game a play, you know, fighting over
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over a or b version of reality is around or
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is it plaid? You know, where does it really help
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us to proceed in our spiritual evolution other than okay,
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I'm right, you're wrong. Okay, So I allow if someone
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has a totally different reality than I have, I say,
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fair enough, this is in a construct. It can all
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happen and be valid at the same time without me
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feeling the necessity to have a discussion here or to
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have a fight over it. We can say, Okay, I
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see it like this, you say it like that. Okay, fine,
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maybe we find a middle ground to it. And mostly
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talking about the construct understanding that reality is not as
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physical as we think, and so is history. You know
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that is theses anti tises is usually the synthesis that
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brings us to kind of unification of understanding would be
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the best way to go.
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Let's talk a little bit about what people experience during
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altered states, dreams, psychedelic experiences. I've had my own psychedelic
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experiences that help me become aware that our reality is
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much much more than we've ever been told and the
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malleable name nature of it. It also helped me understand
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some of the concepts that you're talking about, how our
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perspective forms our reality. But do you think when we
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are in these altered states that we are accessing a
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level of the matrix that isn't normally accessible?
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Well, normally, I guess it's all accessible all the time.
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Now is the question where are the inhibitors within us
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that don't allow it so, And of course you can
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bypass those inhibitors by using psychedelics. I have my own
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experience and now That's how I structured the book. I said, look,
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there is some ancient wisdom teaching that talks about that,
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and it's also you find it in the the Aboriginies
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and their concept of dream time that the reality is
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some kind of as they would say, it is the
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kind of stable dream. But still it's a dreams a
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it's a mental construct. So then people say, well, I'm
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not so much into these old wisdom teachings and whatever
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those people in ancient times whatever kind of ideas to
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climb across. So I'm more scientific guys, and okay, go
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with science. But that's also not what everybody likes because
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they just don't understand it or it's too complicated. And
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some people say, is you know, since twenty twenty, I
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don't like, you know, trust and science. I'm done with that, right,
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So what is the last thing that remains is your
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personal experience? And usually on a daily base, we don't
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have too many experiences that go into this trans personal realm,
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something totally out of the ordinary. But still most people
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have synchronicity, something that you know Sicky Young described and
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you know, first time I read Young was like, wow, revelation.
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Now I finally have a term for these weird coincidences
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that happened in my life. So it's a term for it.
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It's called synchronicities. Okay, cool, And you know how you
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have some weird coincidences that you say, it's my chance.
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But you know, the more that you're focused and the
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more that you know you are more aware about what's
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happening in your surroundings and that your consciousness has a
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feedback loop with what is presented to you, the more
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you at tracked synchronicities. And sometimes I had I described
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a few synchronicities I had in my life in the
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book that convinced me because those synchronicities were like the
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whole universe conspiring behind my back to make this weird
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thing happen. So so that that's bare of any ration
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understanding how things like that happen. That is the you know,
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this is the lowest level of understanding or experience you
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can have that defies the normal Cartesian or rational four
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dimensional space time understanding that the materialists have. But then
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of course it goes deeper than that. You could have
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an accident and an out of body or near death experience.
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And one of the most important work is the book
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of him Vanlomalies and Dutch cardio. It's a bad word
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for me in English cardiologist a guy yeah, working on
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the heart. So of course his patients used to be
404
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you know, it's just part of the game that they
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enter the near death experience realm, and they all experience
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pretty much the same, you know, the same things is
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out of body and and realizing you don't need a
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brain to think, you don't need eyes to see, and
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you can move through walls, you can see outside of
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the hospital. You can actually, you know, go wherever you want,
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just by by a thought, and you can experience and
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see very detailed what what's happening there. And many times
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they could have found out that yes, indeed what you
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what you what you saw was not just an illusion,
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what it was actually there. And of course you can
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you can train yourself to do that without being physically
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or close to physical death. So there are many experience
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with psychedelics, you can name them all from ayahuasca is
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the free letter stuff that I don't want to mention here,
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or my my personal favorite is no substances at all.
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Of course, you can meditate for for decades in a
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in a in some cave somewhere in Himalaya, and you
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might have that on a daily basis. But the best
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way for me to experience trans personal realms for the
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average show is holotropic breathwork, the one that was developed
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by Stani's love Grove. He was he worked together with
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Barbarandas what was his real name, Richard Alpert and Leary
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in the sixties with the three letter substance and they
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all went different ways and growth. He developed this technique
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which is nothing new because the Aborigines know about it
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and the Vedic transitions to talk about Grana Yama the placer.
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You know, Khana the live force and Yama the breath,
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and if you bring that together then you can have
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very intense trans personal experience. And if you put that
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all in a Western framework, then you have a holotropic breathwork.
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And that is something that I experienced myself, very deep
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realizations and visiting other places, other planets, and I saw
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other people experiencing the same thing, not right away. Probably
439
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some do you, but you need some time for that
440
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as well. But that is probably the most safe and
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the most effective, safe and effectively like that way to
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get spiritual or deeper spiritual experience where you get into
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the depth of your being and you bring all this
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shadow work is the primary use for that. It's not like, okay,
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we take some letters and have some fun at the beach. Now,
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It's meant to make deep internal work, resolve all these inhibitors,
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these imprints based on trauma that you experience in this
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life and past life, and so becoming more free to
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express yourself and also access different realms or different spectrum
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of reality.
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You mentioned synchronicity, and for me it was through meditation
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and psychedelics that I was able to connect with synchronicities
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in my reality. They became a sort of leading force
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for me to follow my path. Once you become aware
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of these synchronicities, they can be extremely powerful, extremely beneficial
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as well as I think certain numbers that we see
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and it can appear through different means.
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But what is your.
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Understanding of the mechanism of this synchronicity. Is it to
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give us messages that we are indeed on the right
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path or maybe we're doing something wrong. It is to
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make us become aware of an action in our lives, right.
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I think it has multiple purposes. Once in a while
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it comes just to give you confidence that you're on
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the right path because maybe you're struggling, maybe you don't
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know if this adventure you just got yourself into is
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the right way to go, and synchronicities come up and
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just give you a little hint, no worries. This is
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your path, You're you're on it. That's also I think
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young himself interpreted that it like this, that you on
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your ideal path to you know, whatever your soul has
472
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decided what it you know, wanted to do in this lifetime.
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On the other hand, of course, might be something that
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makes you aware of something specific, something you even have
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to work on that you might make yourself conscious, or
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something you need to integrate into your current development. There
477
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are many things, so I wouldn't put it in just
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one box. But I always believe that it's a very
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positive nature behind that. It's a positive guidance of your
480
00:34:27.480 --> 00:34:31.880
higher self, if you will, that that tries to communicate,
481
00:34:32.360 --> 00:34:37.599
and some people have, you know, an affinity to numbers,
482
00:34:37.599 --> 00:34:43.840
so that the higher self might communicate through numbers, repeating
483
00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:49.840
pattern of numbers or other repeating pattern. So you develop
484
00:34:49.960 --> 00:34:55.400
actually a very personal communication with whatever this higher self
485
00:34:55.559 --> 00:35:03.119
is and how it subtly gives you information through synchronicities,
486
00:35:03.519 --> 00:35:05.719
so I wouldn't put you know, if someone says, okay,
487
00:35:05.840 --> 00:35:09.320
synchronicityes this and that for me, that's you know, probably
488
00:35:09.519 --> 00:35:11.159
it all works at the same time.
489
00:35:11.920 --> 00:35:17.239
Because there are powerful groups that may have knowledge beyond
490
00:35:17.960 --> 00:35:22.519
what we're even discussing about how the nature of reality works.
491
00:35:22.920 --> 00:35:25.039
Do you think that there are powerful groups that are
492
00:35:25.119 --> 00:35:28.880
taking advantage of the mechanics of the matrix to try
493
00:35:29.119 --> 00:35:35.679
and steer society in certain directions and affect certain outcomes.
494
00:35:37.039 --> 00:35:41.159
Certainly, no question about it. So there are powerful groups there.
495
00:35:41.159 --> 00:35:44.880
Now we like to discuss who are those powerful groups.
496
00:35:45.239 --> 00:35:51.159
And usually what we can talk about is the best
497
00:35:51.159 --> 00:35:53.840
of the middle management. I mean, if you talk about
498
00:35:53.960 --> 00:35:58.519
non governmental organizations like World Economic for build up, build
499
00:35:58.559 --> 00:36:03.480
up a group or isn't that those are from my
500
00:36:03.639 --> 00:36:06.320
point of view, just the middle management that you know,
501
00:36:06.920 --> 00:36:12.000
relays certain information to the public or to the politician
502
00:36:12.119 --> 00:36:16.119
first and then first on. But above that are usually
503
00:36:18.440 --> 00:36:21.519
sacred societies, and the deeper you look in that it's
504
00:36:21.599 --> 00:36:26.400
it's I mean that many people came up with trying
505
00:36:26.480 --> 00:36:29.599
to figure out who is where in the packing order,
506
00:36:30.639 --> 00:36:35.360
But I guess we'll never find out and it's it's
507
00:36:35.400 --> 00:36:39.039
no use. You have to understand as a negative force
508
00:36:39.239 --> 00:36:45.159
working from outside of the construct because all these secret societies,
509
00:36:45.159 --> 00:36:49.559
they have a very deep occult background. They make contact
510
00:36:49.599 --> 00:36:53.000
with with these entities and they give you know, they
511
00:36:53.000 --> 00:36:55.760
get something back for that. There is a contract why
512
00:36:55.800 --> 00:36:58.800
they do that. They have their advantages to work with
513
00:36:58.840 --> 00:37:03.360
those entities. And there's no negative force creating a specific
514
00:37:04.119 --> 00:37:10.960
scenario within the matrics, within this construct. But this specific
515
00:37:11.599 --> 00:37:15.280
situation that we have of great polarization what we see
516
00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:20.440
right now, which of course is instigated by higher dimensional
517
00:37:20.840 --> 00:37:27.800
beings negative beings into this reality. This serves its purpose.
518
00:37:28.239 --> 00:37:32.039
Of course, it's a normal thing because the matris works
519
00:37:32.079 --> 00:37:35.920
in cycles, and each cycle, at the end of a cycle,
520
00:37:35.960 --> 00:37:39.079
it's always described in all wisdom teaching, you talk about
521
00:37:39.159 --> 00:37:43.400
Mayan prophecy or hopey prophecy. At the end of a cycle,
522
00:37:44.320 --> 00:37:48.920
it's going berserk. Now do you have? You have this
523
00:37:49.280 --> 00:37:53.199
great polarization. Everybody's against each other. You can be in
524
00:37:53.239 --> 00:37:55.960
this group or that group and hate down them or
525
00:37:55.960 --> 00:37:59.239
they hate you. And this is a normal thing that
526
00:37:59.599 --> 00:38:01.719
things go hey, why at the at the end of
527
00:38:01.760 --> 00:38:05.599
a cycle, and it's on purpose because each and everyone
528
00:38:05.920 --> 00:38:10.840
is supposed to be tested how he relaxed to the
529
00:38:11.199 --> 00:38:17.000
external polarization. And there's still also the point of you know,
530
00:38:17.199 --> 00:38:20.599
evolution into the next density. As far as I can
531
00:38:20.679 --> 00:38:26.280
understand it, deriving my understanding from the raw material or
532
00:38:26.320 --> 00:38:29.199
the law of one or the hidden hand material, I
533
00:38:29.760 --> 00:38:33.840
deeply resonated with that. Not saying that it's all perfect
534
00:38:34.159 --> 00:38:38.199
or there are no distortions within this material, but it
535
00:38:38.800 --> 00:38:42.440
resonated so deep on a deeper spiritual level with me
536
00:38:42.559 --> 00:38:45.880
that it's like ancient wisdom. I was just reminded to
537
00:38:46.639 --> 00:38:49.440
and if you'll look into this material, which is of
538
00:38:49.480 --> 00:38:55.039
course complex, but the general idea is, yes, negative forces
539
00:38:55.079 --> 00:38:59.079
are there. They are mostly contracted to do their work.
540
00:38:59.599 --> 00:39:03.000
I mean the highest level, not the henchmen on the
541
00:39:03.039 --> 00:39:06.559
middle management, who knows what they believe and how much
542
00:39:07.199 --> 00:39:10.280
influence they really have and how much they know about
543
00:39:10.840 --> 00:39:15.199
I don't you know. I can go into speculations on
544
00:39:15.280 --> 00:39:17.960
specifical and even rules, but it doesn't help us in
545
00:39:18.000 --> 00:39:20.840
the end. So yes, we have to accept negative forces
546
00:39:20.840 --> 00:39:24.119
are working here hard, but they are contracted to do
547
00:39:24.599 --> 00:39:27.199
how they do and within this contract. Of course, this
548
00:39:27.320 --> 00:39:30.599
whole metrics or reality is based on rules. We are
549
00:39:30.599 --> 00:39:36.280
not like in a totally anarchy here not I mean
550
00:39:36.360 --> 00:39:40.039
anarchy is not the right really, but there is yeah,
551
00:39:40.119 --> 00:39:43.760
totally cares. So there are rules. There are rules to
552
00:39:43.840 --> 00:39:46.960
the game, and even the dark ones need to stick
553
00:39:47.000 --> 00:39:51.239
to the rules. For example, the most important rule of
554
00:39:51.320 --> 00:39:55.320
all of it is the law of free will. So
555
00:39:55.400 --> 00:39:57.480
it's a deep discussion. Some people say, oh, no, I
556
00:39:57.480 --> 00:39:59.519
don't believe in free will. We don't have free will.
557
00:40:00.199 --> 00:40:03.440
There is free will. You can decide. It's not in everything.
558
00:40:03.519 --> 00:40:07.599
There might be automatics in how much you are indoctrinated
559
00:40:07.639 --> 00:40:11.719
into certain things, but deep inside of you, at specific
560
00:40:13.119 --> 00:40:16.239
points in your life, you can choose do I continue
561
00:40:16.320 --> 00:40:19.000
with this course or do I make you know a
562
00:40:19.079 --> 00:40:23.559
new adjustment. And the more aware you become, the more
563
00:40:23.599 --> 00:40:27.559
your imprints and programmings on your subconsciousness are removed, the
564
00:40:27.559 --> 00:40:35.400
more you can actually use your free wel And for example,
565
00:40:35.559 --> 00:40:38.119
that this is the reason why they made it really
566
00:40:38.199 --> 00:40:44.320
hard on us, you know, to accept the syringe when
567
00:40:44.320 --> 00:40:47.000
it came to twenty twenty and I don't get the shot.
568
00:40:47.800 --> 00:40:51.559
But it was never mandatory. I mean, it was maybe
569
00:40:51.559 --> 00:40:55.559
mandatory for you at this specific work, but of course
570
00:40:55.599 --> 00:41:00.119
you could have said no and later sue their assets
571
00:41:00.679 --> 00:41:03.519
and most times it worked pretty well. But they you know,
572
00:41:03.599 --> 00:41:07.440
they wanted you to go there on your own terms,
573
00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:12.000
meaning yes, I accept if you but if you're you know,
574
00:41:12.119 --> 00:41:16.400
you were tested. Are you willing to stand on your back,
575
00:41:16.840 --> 00:41:19.960
on your back legs and say no to this point
576
00:41:20.000 --> 00:41:22.679
and I trust universe that will provide for me? Or
577
00:41:22.840 --> 00:41:25.840
do I take a different path, But I don't do
578
00:41:25.960 --> 00:41:29.559
not compromise on something I know within myself, which is wrong.
579
00:41:29.599 --> 00:41:33.119
I'm with you, man. I think this is a process
580
00:41:33.320 --> 00:41:36.679
to evolve our consciousness. I think we're being presented, like
581
00:41:36.719 --> 00:41:41.239
you said, these extremes, these extreme polarities, so that we
582
00:41:41.280 --> 00:41:44.000
can choose what we're going to align with, so that
583
00:41:44.360 --> 00:41:48.199
we can learn from the darkest of dark and understand
584
00:41:48.239 --> 00:41:50.719
that that's not where we want to go. And it's
585
00:41:50.760 --> 00:41:52.880
going to Like you said, it seems to be getting
586
00:41:52.960 --> 00:42:00.559
progressively worse. Our systems that are fundamentally parasitic, the education government,
587
00:42:01.320 --> 00:42:05.519
our health care systems, they're getting worse every second of
588
00:42:05.599 --> 00:42:09.199
every day, and it's pushing people away, and it seems
589
00:42:09.239 --> 00:42:12.599
like it's for a greater purpose. Another part of that
590
00:42:12.599 --> 00:42:15.360
that I can look back on my own life and
591
00:42:15.440 --> 00:42:18.519
no matter what horrible things I went through. It was
592
00:42:19.239 --> 00:42:22.519
ultimately beneficial for me, and I learned from it. When
593
00:42:22.519 --> 00:42:26.079
I look back at my entire life, it was too
594
00:42:26.119 --> 00:42:30.239
perfect a series of events to have been anything just
595
00:42:30.519 --> 00:42:33.840
like random chaos. And I can look at the bigger
596
00:42:33.880 --> 00:42:37.519
picture of what's unfolding in the collective as well and say,
597
00:42:37.559 --> 00:42:42.639
there seems to be a story being told throughout time
598
00:42:42.800 --> 00:42:46.920
that is fitting a bigger picture and leading to something
599
00:42:47.000 --> 00:42:51.159
greater for humanity. There's many that have the consensus. You
600
00:42:51.280 --> 00:42:57.880
talk with intuitive psychics, people who are connected to other
601
00:42:57.960 --> 00:43:02.360
worldly intelligences or inner jeez, and they have this emerging
602
00:43:02.440 --> 00:43:06.239
consensus that we are entering a new era of humanity
603
00:43:06.639 --> 00:43:09.840
where we will start to reject the things that are
604
00:43:09.920 --> 00:43:13.719
anti human and it's going to be much more beneficial
605
00:43:13.920 --> 00:43:16.400
for us. Would you agree with that? Do you think
606
00:43:16.400 --> 00:43:18.800
we're heading into something better for us?
607
00:43:21.239 --> 00:43:23.760
No, I have no question. I mean, first, we have
608
00:43:23.840 --> 00:43:27.159
to go through a valley of tears. I guess it's
609
00:43:27.199 --> 00:43:31.519
by design that it's not like the dogs are totally
610
00:43:31.519 --> 00:43:34.679
incompetent that those things come up right now. No, it's
611
00:43:34.679 --> 00:43:37.679
suppose it's part of the script. It's part of the
612
00:43:37.679 --> 00:43:43.480
script that all these you know, any topic you want
613
00:43:43.519 --> 00:43:46.119
to you want to name, even you know that people
614
00:43:46.199 --> 00:43:49.000
have to realize that my favorite artist I was listening
615
00:43:49.039 --> 00:43:52.599
for the last ten years and hell is a great
616
00:43:52.639 --> 00:43:57.840
guy is somewhere on Diddy's list, made visits to Epstein Island,
617
00:43:57.960 --> 00:44:01.440
or you know, it's supposed to come up and people,
618
00:44:01.719 --> 00:44:05.840
you know, either wake up or the whole tie to
619
00:44:05.960 --> 00:44:10.159
the g the old part time, but it will all implode.
620
00:44:10.880 --> 00:44:14.519
I don't know, I'm not like I would love to
621
00:44:14.559 --> 00:44:18.199
say something different, something which goes more like the hop
622
00:44:18.239 --> 00:44:22.440
you'm understanding that you know everything, the white Heads will
623
00:44:22.480 --> 00:44:25.400
come and arrest all the then all aliens come, or
624
00:44:26.519 --> 00:44:29.880
Jesus will will get the get the thing out of
625
00:44:29.920 --> 00:44:32.679
the mutton. Now I'm sorry. I I think it's this
626
00:44:33.440 --> 00:44:41.719
individual soul wants to experience it own power and also
627
00:44:41.800 --> 00:44:46.440
its own ability to navigate through that thing and and
628
00:44:46.639 --> 00:44:51.000
and you know, and that help is always just help
629
00:44:51.079 --> 00:44:53.719
for self help if it comes from a divine source.
630
00:44:54.559 --> 00:44:57.920
And I guess we will experience at the end of
631
00:44:57.960 --> 00:45:02.599
the cycle is usually you know, it doesn't mean it
632
00:45:02.639 --> 00:45:06.239
has to be that way this time, And usually at
633
00:45:06.239 --> 00:45:10.039
the end of a cycle, we experience on a geophysical level,
634
00:45:10.480 --> 00:45:17.320
great changes some people talk about the pole shift, some cataclysm.
635
00:45:17.480 --> 00:45:20.039
You know the story from the Bible. You know that
636
00:45:20.559 --> 00:45:24.679
is a big flood, deluge, as you say, right, that's
637
00:45:25.679 --> 00:45:28.719
that's a story you find all around all over the world,
638
00:45:30.039 --> 00:45:34.920
the Gilgamesh apos, the Gilgamesh story, to make just one example.
639
00:45:35.039 --> 00:45:40.920
So and if you follow people like suspicious observers, I
640
00:45:40.960 --> 00:45:44.280
don't say they are one correct on everything, but there
641
00:45:44.400 --> 00:45:47.559
is great evidence that we are coming to an end
642
00:45:47.599 --> 00:45:50.039
of the cycle, not only in a spiritual sense, but
643
00:45:50.159 --> 00:45:55.039
it manifests into the physical realm. And of course we
644
00:45:55.199 --> 00:46:01.559
see that everybody is preparing for war, a global that
645
00:46:01.760 --> 00:46:06.719
is also part of the scriptures because all these religions,
646
00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:11.360
the Christians, the Muslims, the Jews, they all believe in
647
00:46:11.400 --> 00:46:15.639
their armageddon. This is do I say, Emma Gaddon here
648
00:46:15.800 --> 00:46:18.719
So so the armageddon, so the the you know, the
649
00:46:18.800 --> 00:46:21.599
big story at the at the at the end of
650
00:46:21.800 --> 00:46:24.800
their cycle, so that the Mardi, the Messia is the
651
00:46:24.840 --> 00:46:29.519
second coming of Christ can can occur. So so if
652
00:46:29.559 --> 00:46:34.239
they tell you about geopolitical necessities in the Middle East
653
00:46:34.760 --> 00:46:38.039
is bullshit. It's a cover story. Now the normal people
654
00:46:38.159 --> 00:46:42.320
like to have PCs, but the people behind that, they
655
00:46:42.360 --> 00:46:46.639
are guided you know that by dark forces, and they
656
00:46:46.679 --> 00:46:50.119
are into their understanding that you need to have this
657
00:46:50.199 --> 00:46:54.480
AMAgeddon at the end of the of uh specific age,
658
00:46:54.880 --> 00:46:56.400
so everybody's preparing for that.
659
00:46:56.400 --> 00:47:00.840
It's very interesting how what we're seeing, especially what we
660
00:47:00.920 --> 00:47:05.440
just saw politically here in the United States, mirror's prophecy
661
00:47:05.719 --> 00:47:10.559
in some very disturbing ways. It's very interesting the series
662
00:47:10.599 --> 00:47:14.679
of events that we can look back on and compare
663
00:47:14.719 --> 00:47:19.360
to a book of revelation, ancient prophecy throughout all theological
664
00:47:19.400 --> 00:47:23.599
belief systems, and there seem to be things unfolding that
665
00:47:23.679 --> 00:47:27.639
we can point to in these ancient texts and say,
666
00:47:27.679 --> 00:47:29.880
could this be what they're saying?
667
00:47:32.199 --> 00:47:35.800
Yeah. So each each party in the game, it is
668
00:47:35.920 --> 00:47:39.039
like a script. There's one script from the you know,
669
00:47:39.119 --> 00:47:44.880
the universal negative force that is responsible for implementing the
670
00:47:44.960 --> 00:47:51.519
stage play here, and each party involved, meaning each religious faith,
671
00:47:51.679 --> 00:47:56.840
they have their own script of how they are supposed
672
00:47:56.880 --> 00:48:01.039
to act at this specific big chapter that we are
673
00:48:01.039 --> 00:48:04.920
in the final chapter. So of course it's all these
674
00:48:04.920 --> 00:48:09.599
scripts are all we against them. None of them realizes
675
00:48:09.679 --> 00:48:15.400
that the fundamental unity of everything. So everybody who is
676
00:48:15.440 --> 00:48:19.079
you know, is you know, get the opportunity to choose
677
00:48:19.159 --> 00:48:22.639
to fight for their party against the other evil ones.
678
00:48:23.440 --> 00:48:26.280
And it's fine, you can't do that. You know, from
679
00:48:26.320 --> 00:48:29.679
from the point of view of eternity that each and
680
00:48:29.760 --> 00:48:33.400
every fractal experience itself. Some just came here to have,
681
00:48:33.480 --> 00:48:37.000
you know, just a nice experience of slaughtering the other
682
00:48:37.400 --> 00:48:40.320
the other ones, you know, So that's it. I'm not
683
00:48:40.440 --> 00:48:43.800
judging here, you know, and trying try not to judge here.
684
00:48:43.840 --> 00:48:47.840
So so that's that's the party. We we all came
685
00:48:47.880 --> 00:48:52.599
here too, and we can decide, you know, how we
686
00:48:52.639 --> 00:48:56.280
want to play in here and and what group we
687
00:48:56.360 --> 00:49:00.559
want to be part of, or if we choose our
688
00:49:00.639 --> 00:49:04.559
own path and our own path of you know that
689
00:49:05.039 --> 00:49:09.159
seeing unity and everything, that doesn't mean that we accept everything.
690
00:49:09.280 --> 00:49:11.920
Now we just say, okay that those are our boundaries,
691
00:49:11.960 --> 00:49:15.920
and you know, and but I'm strict to my path
692
00:49:16.400 --> 00:49:20.199
and not you know, as long as nobody stands on
693
00:49:20.239 --> 00:49:23.119
my way, I'm you know, I try to be the
694
00:49:24.119 --> 00:49:26.920
like the water, you know, and and try to navigate
695
00:49:26.960 --> 00:49:30.280
through these times, but always with the understanding, okay, to
696
00:49:30.480 --> 00:49:36.119
implement love and unity rather than you know, fighting some
697
00:49:36.360 --> 00:49:38.119
other aspect of myself.
698
00:49:38.360 --> 00:49:40.440
I love it, man. We all came here to party
699
00:49:41.119 --> 00:49:44.079
last few minutes we have, I want to get deeper
700
00:49:44.159 --> 00:49:48.079
into how powerful we are as creators in this realm.
701
00:49:48.519 --> 00:49:52.599
You were talking about how our perception can form our reality.
702
00:49:53.000 --> 00:49:56.559
I believe that our imagination, our perception, the way we
703
00:49:56.679 --> 00:50:01.360
view things, is going to dictate how our reality manifests
704
00:50:01.440 --> 00:50:07.719
to us. And we have this collective understanding of baseline reality,
705
00:50:07.800 --> 00:50:11.920
but we also have our own individual experiences, and as
706
00:50:12.000 --> 00:50:17.039
we were talking about earlier, this fractalization of experiences may
707
00:50:17.199 --> 00:50:20.880
cause things to seem like they're changing in our reality.
708
00:50:21.559 --> 00:50:26.360
But I've noticed myself throughout different experiences, as I would
709
00:50:26.440 --> 00:50:30.199
have better understandings, as I would have a more positive outlook,
710
00:50:30.280 --> 00:50:33.360
as my perspective would shift, things in my life would
711
00:50:33.400 --> 00:50:37.719
reflect that, and I could experience very profound changes, things
712
00:50:37.760 --> 00:50:40.480
that I might not specifically be able to point out,
713
00:50:40.480 --> 00:50:43.360
but an overall sense that things are better in my life,
714
00:50:43.360 --> 00:50:46.559
and they would perpetuate that way. If I had a
715
00:50:46.599 --> 00:50:50.119
good perspective, good people would come into my life, good
716
00:50:50.159 --> 00:50:53.320
things would happen, and it would continue in that way.
717
00:50:53.840 --> 00:50:56.719
And it seems like the way we view things is
718
00:50:56.800 --> 00:51:00.960
going to heavily dictate how we experience our reality.
719
00:51:03.440 --> 00:51:06.800
Absolutely, as I said, we are co creators. Each and
720
00:51:06.960 --> 00:51:11.599
every factal is part of the one and has similar abilities.
721
00:51:12.280 --> 00:51:16.840
Of course, many things happen on a subconscious level. That's
722
00:51:16.840 --> 00:51:19.840
why shadow work is so important, so we see where
723
00:51:19.880 --> 00:51:26.960
our own sabotage comes from within. But generally, if we
724
00:51:27.079 --> 00:51:30.719
have like we create our reality bubble or the reality
725
00:51:30.800 --> 00:51:36.000
that we experience on a daily base, the probabilities that
726
00:51:36.079 --> 00:51:41.079
bend because we have a specific positive like in a negative.
727
00:51:41.159 --> 00:51:45.039
Of course, if you want positive bending, so you don't
728
00:51:45.079 --> 00:51:49.639
attract all the so called assholes, but positive people then
729
00:51:49.679 --> 00:51:53.840
of course stay positive and you attract that. There might
730
00:51:53.880 --> 00:51:57.599
be other things coming into that, like you know, your
731
00:51:57.599 --> 00:52:02.199
personal karma and stuff, you know your the let's say
732
00:52:02.320 --> 00:52:07.760
energetic dept that might interfere with that, But generally your
733
00:52:08.039 --> 00:52:12.280
consciousness dictates what comes to you. The more people come
734
00:52:12.320 --> 00:52:17.719
together have unified or coherent understanding or idea about what
735
00:52:17.880 --> 00:52:21.599
reality they want to manifest, the more you build like
736
00:52:21.679 --> 00:52:24.719
a bubble, a bubble of reality that might even be
737
00:52:24.920 --> 00:52:30.519
like paradoxical to compared to what is happening in the collective,
738
00:52:31.320 --> 00:52:34.840
and to a point where you are maybe even totally
739
00:52:35.119 --> 00:52:39.360
disconnected to the collective, and your personal reality bubble can
740
00:52:39.440 --> 00:52:44.119
be totally something totally different from what other people experience
741
00:52:45.239 --> 00:52:49.639
in this reality just let's say a physical length of
742
00:52:50.119 --> 00:52:56.280
ten miles away to give you just a idea. So, yes,
743
00:52:56.400 --> 00:53:01.840
we create like our own individual intelligent field of reality,
744
00:53:01.840 --> 00:53:05.159
and especially in times right now where things become more
745
00:53:05.159 --> 00:53:10.119
and more chaotic, this also increases the power from my
746
00:53:10.320 --> 00:53:12.679
point of view, or I don't know, maybe it's part
747
00:53:12.719 --> 00:53:16.519
of the matrix design, but I think chaos is also
748
00:53:16.960 --> 00:53:23.119
a facilitator for new impulses coming in by so called coincidence.
749
00:53:23.159 --> 00:53:27.840
Because it's chaotic, it's hard for me to explain, but
750
00:53:28.079 --> 00:53:32.679
I guess that's also my experience. We have to more
751
00:53:32.719 --> 00:53:38.719
and more focus on our ability to change reality in
752
00:53:38.800 --> 00:53:44.840
our personal realm, and therefore we need to take self responsibility,
753
00:53:45.719 --> 00:53:49.400
meaning we don't say, ah, this politician and those ones
754
00:53:49.480 --> 00:53:54.440
and this organization over here there are the reason why
755
00:53:54.480 --> 00:53:58.679
I'm miserable. Yeah, there might be on a causal realm,
756
00:53:58.760 --> 00:54:02.719
but the more every time you give your own creative
757
00:54:02.840 --> 00:54:06.800
power away and hand it over to them by complaining
758
00:54:07.400 --> 00:54:10.320
rather than saying, okay, if one way or another created this,
759
00:54:12.400 --> 00:54:17.760
let's say, let's call it challenge here, okay, and the
760
00:54:17.840 --> 00:54:20.679
reason for this challenge is for me to become the
761
00:54:20.679 --> 00:54:26.280
next better version of myself if I prevail. So let's
762
00:54:26.320 --> 00:54:29.719
take it as a sportive challenge here and I do
763
00:54:29.760 --> 00:54:32.719
the best, and it's in my power to change things.
764
00:54:33.400 --> 00:54:35.960
So and that is the best thing to take self
765
00:54:36.000 --> 00:54:41.880
responsibility for your life, individual life. Yes, the negative forces
766
00:54:41.920 --> 00:54:45.880
are there, they play their part, but try to get
767
00:54:45.920 --> 00:54:49.559
around these obstacles as good as you can and take
768
00:54:49.599 --> 00:54:54.559
it as part of this evolutionary process and take the
769
00:54:54.719 --> 00:55:00.960
negative forces or the negative things as catalysts for your
770
00:55:01.000 --> 00:55:04.679
own for your own evolution. So that would be the
771
00:55:04.679 --> 00:55:08.440
best thing I can say. And yes, the more and
772
00:55:08.519 --> 00:55:11.159
more you realize you are a co creator in this
773
00:55:11.280 --> 00:55:15.000
reality and there are no boundaries, and especially at times
774
00:55:15.039 --> 00:55:17.760
where things get a little bit sketchy all around, then
775
00:55:18.599 --> 00:55:23.960
this is a critical ability to develop.
776
00:55:24.480 --> 00:55:27.480
We are definitely in a very special time right now.
777
00:55:27.559 --> 00:55:31.559
There's been an effort throughout history to try and suppress
778
00:55:31.800 --> 00:55:35.800
the abilities that we have as humanity, and especially in
779
00:55:35.840 --> 00:55:39.639
the past few years, there's been a noticeable jump in
780
00:55:39.760 --> 00:55:43.960
awareness collectively, and as we discussed earlier, I think this
781
00:55:44.079 --> 00:55:47.239
is only going to continue. So we're in a very
782
00:55:47.280 --> 00:55:50.000
fascinating time. Christian. Thank you so much for this. This
783
00:55:50.159 --> 00:55:53.760
is great information. Before we close out, let everyone know
784
00:55:53.880 --> 00:55:56.320
how they can find out more about you pick up
785
00:55:56.320 --> 00:55:59.119
your book. I'll also have that link right in the description.
786
00:56:01.320 --> 00:56:04.599
Yeah, thanks for giving me the opportunity. Well, I have
787
00:56:04.639 --> 00:56:07.960
an English website, this is maya magic dot com, but
788
00:56:08.079 --> 00:56:12.480
I haven't haven't done much work on that. But the
789
00:56:12.639 --> 00:56:16.880
articles there are all written in English, but it doesn't
790
00:56:16.920 --> 00:56:20.000
have the extent like my German website, which is my
791
00:56:20.239 --> 00:56:24.320
Magic dot de and I have the function of a
792
00:56:24.360 --> 00:56:28.920
Google translator of gold Schoogle translator budgets the content a
793
00:56:28.920 --> 00:56:33.400
little bit, but but there you find the most content
794
00:56:33.840 --> 00:56:39.880
and articles and connections between different stories that I can
795
00:56:40.039 --> 00:56:44.280
provide at this point, but generally if you really want
796
00:56:44.320 --> 00:56:51.320
to see what my bigger picture is and how everything relates.
797
00:56:51.719 --> 00:56:56.800
I just published my English version of the Matrix Hypothesis
798
00:56:57.760 --> 00:57:03.639
on Amazon KDP, so I have hotly ten sales by now,
799
00:57:03.719 --> 00:57:08.920
so I hope if I change and yeah, so I
800
00:57:09.199 --> 00:57:11.760
put a lot of effort into that fauna patients on
801
00:57:11.880 --> 00:57:16.239
everything that I figured out. As not saying that this
802
00:57:16.280 --> 00:57:18.480
is the final truth, but I guess it's a good
803
00:57:18.480 --> 00:57:22.559
guideline to get in all to these topics and make
804
00:57:22.639 --> 00:57:25.840
yourself your own picture of reality.
805
00:57:25.920 --> 00:57:28.679
Well, I'm pretty sure that my audience can definitely help
806
00:57:28.719 --> 00:57:31.960
bring you some more sales. Christian, this was great. I'd
807
00:57:32.000 --> 00:57:34.199
definitely love to talk with you again in the future.
808
00:57:34.239 --> 00:57:38.400
There's much more we can get into. Until next time, everyone,
809
00:57:38.480 --> 00:57:42.079
have a wonderful evening. We will talk again tomorrow and
810
00:57:42.159 --> 00:57:42.880
we'll see you then.
811
00:57:44.199 --> 00:57:44.480
Hello.
812
00:57:44.559 --> 00:57:47.880
Friends. At some point in our journeys, we all need
813
00:57:47.960 --> 00:57:51.360
guidance and direction. One thing I've learned along the way
814
00:57:51.559 --> 00:57:54.239
is that there are many ways to connect with our
815
00:57:54.320 --> 00:57:59.880
soul mission. Jennifer Halcom offers over thirty years experience. Today,
816
00:58:00.000 --> 00:58:02.639
I want to welcome Mark Weinstein. He is a world
817
00:58:02.679 --> 00:58:08.960
renowned tech entrepreneur, contemporary thought leader, privacy expert, and one
818
00:58:09.000 --> 00:58:13.920
of the visionary inventors of social networking. His adventure in
819
00:58:14.000 --> 00:58:18.079
social media has lasted over twenty five years through three
820
00:58:18.199 --> 00:58:23.599
award winning personal social media platforms, enjoyed by millions of
821
00:58:23.719 --> 00:58:26.679
members worldwide. Mark, welcome.
822
00:58:26.719 --> 00:58:30.400
How you doing, Hey, Chris, I'm doing great. You know,
823
00:58:30.599 --> 00:58:34.519
this is such an important topic and so it's great
824
00:58:34.519 --> 00:58:36.760
to be on the show. It's great to have everybody
825
00:58:37.039 --> 00:58:40.519
who's going to be watching and listening. You know, I'm
826
00:58:40.599 --> 00:58:41.679
very excited to be here with you.
827
00:58:41.800 --> 00:58:43.960
I'm very excited to have you, and like you said,
828
00:58:44.039 --> 00:58:48.760
this is definitely a very important and timely topic. We're
829
00:58:48.760 --> 00:58:52.719
going to talk about the dark reality of surveillance capitalism.
830
00:58:53.159 --> 00:58:57.400
And you call this the greatest socio economic experiment in
831
00:58:57.480 --> 00:59:04.679
human history. And we're currently in an era of constant tracking, surveillance, analysis,
832
00:59:04.719 --> 00:59:09.360
even monetization. And there's most likely several layers that go
833
00:59:09.440 --> 00:59:13.519
beyond my limited understanding of this technology. But I'm looking
834
00:59:13.639 --> 00:59:17.719
forward to hearing your insights about the state of technocracy
835
00:59:17.760 --> 00:59:22.119
and maybe even get some possible solutions and help people
836
00:59:22.239 --> 00:59:25.159
understand where we're at before we do. This is your
837
00:59:25.159 --> 00:59:27.519
first time on tell us a little bit more about
838
00:59:27.559 --> 00:59:30.559
yourself and what led you to where you're at.
839
00:59:32.360 --> 00:59:36.039
Well, first of all, everybody, if you're watching, I've just
840
00:59:36.199 --> 00:59:39.239
I have a new book out called Restoring Our Sanity
841
00:59:39.480 --> 00:59:46.000
Online Revolutionary Social Framework Now for context, you know, and
842
00:59:46.360 --> 00:59:49.719
doubling down on the intro. It's endorsed by sir Tim
843
00:59:49.760 --> 00:59:53.039
berners Lee. Well, many of you know, is the inventor
844
00:59:53.119 --> 00:59:55.400
of the World Wide Web. There's not ten, there's not five,
845
00:59:55.440 --> 00:59:59.639
there's not two, there's one. It's sir Tim he's advised
846
00:59:59.679 --> 01:00:03.239
me for fourteen years. He's a friend. And if the
847
01:00:03.280 --> 01:00:07.480
book is also endorsed by was Steve Wozniak. Now I
848
01:00:07.519 --> 01:00:10.400
know a bunch of you have heard's name many times,
849
01:00:11.079 --> 01:00:14.000
also been advising me for a long time. Great guy,
850
01:00:14.079 --> 01:00:18.679
great human being. So that's what I've been up to recently. Now,
851
01:00:19.199 --> 01:00:21.320
if we dial it back, you know, as one of
852
01:00:21.360 --> 01:00:25.719
the inventors of social media, truly, everybody one of the inventors,
853
01:00:25.760 --> 01:00:27.519
one of I think there's probably one hundred of us
854
01:00:27.599 --> 01:00:30.320
around the world who thought of the idea around the
855
01:00:30.360 --> 01:00:34.519
same time in the nineties. If you're if you weren't
856
01:00:34.519 --> 01:00:37.400
born in the nineties, that's okay, But a bunch of
857
01:00:37.519 --> 01:00:41.239
us lived through Web one also, so you know, I
858
01:00:41.280 --> 01:00:45.000
started Web one, I started I built Superfamily and Super Friends.
859
01:00:45.079 --> 01:00:48.159
They were PC magazine top one hundred sites three years
860
01:00:48.159 --> 01:00:51.639
in a row in Web one. And then you know,
861
01:00:51.639 --> 01:00:54.079
Web one was beautiful because we look at like, you know,
862
01:00:54.119 --> 01:00:57.199
where does social media come from? Well, first of all,
863
01:00:57.199 --> 01:01:00.800
we call them community portals in the nineties, and the
864
01:01:01.000 --> 01:01:04.480
whole idea was email was already Look, we all had
865
01:01:04.519 --> 01:01:07.320
email in the nineties, especially in the late nineties, but
866
01:01:07.400 --> 01:01:10.800
email was already ghastly in the nineties. It's just like
867
01:01:10.840 --> 01:01:13.840
it is today. One dimensional. You don't really know what
868
01:01:13.880 --> 01:01:16.559
the person is thinking. You can't tap into their motions.
869
01:01:17.039 --> 01:01:19.239
All you're doing is reading the flat word, and then
870
01:01:19.280 --> 01:01:24.360
you're making all the interpretations. And we're often interpreting emails incorrectly,
871
01:01:24.480 --> 01:01:27.320
particularly the nuance. So it was the same thing in
872
01:01:27.360 --> 01:01:29.960
the nineties. Email is exactly the same. Can you believe
873
01:01:30.000 --> 01:01:33.840
that all the advances in technology, thirty years of email.
874
01:01:34.400 --> 01:01:38.480
So a bunch of us, you know, came up with
875
01:01:38.519 --> 01:01:41.559
this idea. We've still all start different companies around the world.
876
01:01:41.559 --> 01:01:44.599
It's called one hundredth monkey effect, where the idea plugs
877
01:01:44.639 --> 01:01:47.159
into humanity at the same time in different places where
878
01:01:47.159 --> 01:01:50.719
we have no connection to each other. And so the
879
01:01:50.800 --> 01:01:55.159
idea was, let's connect the earth, let's connect with our
880
01:01:55.159 --> 01:01:58.599
family and friends and with like minded people because we
881
01:01:58.599 --> 01:02:00.679
can all live in work wherever we wanted too. At
882
01:02:00.679 --> 01:02:05.760
that point. Also, so let's use technology to stay better connected,
883
01:02:06.159 --> 01:02:09.320
you know, with live video, with photo albums, with you know,
884
01:02:09.400 --> 01:02:12.599
sticky notes on a refrigerator, with all kinds of great stuff,
885
01:02:14.199 --> 01:02:17.639
and so you know, social media was born. That's Web one.
886
01:02:17.760 --> 01:02:21.559
There was no surveillance capital and everybody. This is actually
887
01:02:21.599 --> 01:02:25.599
what leads to it because Web one was what was
888
01:02:25.639 --> 01:02:29.719
called the new economy. It was a revenue model that
889
01:02:29.960 --> 01:02:33.960
wasn't quite developed, and all that investors cared about in
890
01:02:34.000 --> 01:02:37.480
Web one is that you got users, and we call
891
01:02:37.559 --> 01:02:39.440
them eyeballs. Then we didn't call them users, we just
892
01:02:39.440 --> 01:02:44.840
call them eyeballs. So you know, if you could get eyeballs,
893
01:02:45.400 --> 01:02:49.039
then you were successful. And so by that measure, I
894
01:02:49.239 --> 01:02:54.199
was very successful. Many companies were, because the new economy
895
01:02:54.360 --> 01:02:58.239
was get your customers, your eyeballs, and then we'll figure
896
01:02:58.280 --> 01:03:03.159
out how to monetize them. So that's what happened. And
897
01:03:03.239 --> 01:03:07.000
so there we are in Web one, and everybody was
898
01:03:07.039 --> 01:03:09.199
doing the right you know, the people that were successful,
899
01:03:09.280 --> 01:03:12.159
like I was, we were doing it great. All of
900
01:03:12.199 --> 01:03:15.840
a sudden, if you've ever read about Web one or
901
01:03:15.920 --> 01:03:18.280
live through it, the bubble burst, they call it the
902
01:03:18.280 --> 01:03:25.199
bubble bursting, and in the early two thousand and one
903
01:03:25.320 --> 01:03:29.039
the bubble burst, and there was like, you know, investing
904
01:03:29.119 --> 01:03:31.920
is always emotional, and all of a sudden, there were
905
01:03:31.960 --> 01:03:35.159
the cynics who won and they were like, wait a minute,
906
01:03:35.239 --> 01:03:38.760
there's no revenue. You know, none of these companies have revenue,
907
01:03:39.039 --> 01:03:40.800
and it was like, yeah, we don't have revenue because
908
01:03:40.800 --> 01:03:45.000
we're doing exactly the mandate of our investors. Get your customers,
909
01:03:45.000 --> 01:03:47.159
get them lined up, and then we'll figure out we'll
910
01:03:47.159 --> 01:03:51.960
invent monetization mechanisms that are effective for those customers. You've
911
01:03:51.960 --> 01:03:53.840
got to first get them, make sure they love what
912
01:03:53.880 --> 01:03:57.480
you're doing. They love the service, but investors panic. There
913
01:03:57.559 --> 01:04:00.440
was a stampede to the door. And this is why
914
01:04:00.480 --> 01:04:04.280
literally thousands of companies went out of business over a
915
01:04:04.639 --> 01:04:08.800
short just a few months period, thousands of companies because
916
01:04:09.079 --> 01:04:12.440
we didn't have revenue, and if investors stopped writing checks,
917
01:04:12.719 --> 01:04:17.239
we couldn't fund our operations. And of Web one, Web
918
01:04:17.280 --> 01:04:21.960
two is born shortly thereafter, and Web two is really
919
01:04:21.960 --> 01:04:26.360
where Google comes into existence in a big way. You know,
920
01:04:27.119 --> 01:04:31.920
Meta Facebook starts around two thousand and four, MySpace is
921
01:04:32.440 --> 01:04:37.280
in early two thousands, and Google and Facebook start to
922
01:04:37.360 --> 01:04:40.639
discover something in that two thousand and five six, seven,
923
01:04:40.840 --> 01:04:47.599
eight nine era that oh, we have so much data
924
01:04:48.039 --> 01:04:50.599
because the ad models then were very straightforward, just like
925
01:04:50.639 --> 01:04:53.880
throwing ads at people without any kind of targeting. All
926
01:04:53.920 --> 01:04:56.760
of a sudden they're like, oh, wait a minute, I
927
01:04:56.800 --> 01:04:58.679
know that Mark's got to get dog food in you know,
928
01:04:58.880 --> 01:05:01.519
he's going to the store. So on right there, all right,
929
01:05:01.480 --> 01:05:04.039
I heard it. You know, poor bubble poles really listening.
930
01:05:04.440 --> 01:05:07.639
But they were watching where you are, who you're talking to,
931
01:05:07.760 --> 01:05:10.719
what you're saying in real time. The algorithms were being
932
01:05:10.760 --> 01:05:14.760
engineered as quickly as possible so that they could collect
933
01:05:14.760 --> 01:05:18.400
the data, aggregate a data packet on you, and then
934
01:05:18.719 --> 01:05:22.760
target and manipulate your thoughts, your purchases, your business decisions.
935
01:05:23.320 --> 01:05:28.000
Now here's the strange thing, Chris and everybody. At first,
936
01:05:28.119 --> 01:05:30.960
a bunch of people thought it was cool because it
937
01:05:30.960 --> 01:05:34.119
had never been done before. Right, So it's like, oh, well, well,
938
01:05:34.159 --> 01:05:37.079
they know, you know that I'm not feeling so hot,
939
01:05:37.119 --> 01:05:39.480
and so they know I need to go to you know,
940
01:05:39.639 --> 01:05:43.199
Walgreens and get some medicine or you know, they know
941
01:05:43.280 --> 01:05:45.239
I need to go to the pet store and get
942
01:05:45.239 --> 01:05:48.239
some dog food. They know them out so and there's
943
01:05:48.280 --> 01:05:50.280
the ad right there, there's a coupon. How cool is that?
944
01:05:51.519 --> 01:05:55.960
So the coolness lasted for just a little while, and
945
01:05:56.039 --> 01:05:58.440
for many of us, we thought it was creepy immediately.
946
01:05:59.119 --> 01:06:02.440
And in fact, you fast forward to twenty twelve, the
947
01:06:02.519 --> 01:06:06.519
day before Facebook went public, I was interviewed on Fox Business.
948
01:06:06.559 --> 01:06:08.519
I was the one guy that could fight who said
949
01:06:08.519 --> 01:06:12.079
this is creepy, and I said it. I said it.
950
01:06:12.199 --> 01:06:14.519
I said, you know, guys, because that's you know, it's
951
01:06:14.559 --> 01:06:18.880
like there's something wrong here. If I write, you know,
952
01:06:19.119 --> 01:06:20.599
I put a post, guys, I got to go to
953
01:06:20.679 --> 01:06:22.920
the store. I gotta get some dog food. Then in
954
01:06:23.000 --> 01:06:24.480
ten seconds I have dog food.
955
01:06:24.480 --> 01:06:24.800
Ads.
956
01:06:25.599 --> 01:06:27.920
This is creepy. This is like big Brother. There's a
957
01:06:27.920 --> 01:06:30.960
creep watching right over my shoulder, and I can't see
958
01:06:30.960 --> 01:06:34.719
that creep. So I can't actually articulate anything about that creep.
959
01:06:34.760 --> 01:06:38.599
But it's creepy. And this actually is why it works
960
01:06:38.639 --> 01:06:42.519
so well, Chris. This is surveillance capitalism, everybody. This is
961
01:06:42.519 --> 01:06:45.679
how it started. This is how it perpetuates today. When
962
01:06:45.679 --> 01:06:49.960
you can't see the creep, it's really hard to articulate
963
01:06:50.400 --> 01:06:54.760
what's happening, get your arms around it, and it's just weird.
964
01:06:56.039 --> 01:07:00.599
So so fast forward. You know what we have today
965
01:07:01.679 --> 01:07:03.280
and now we've had for many years. Fir So. In
966
01:07:03.320 --> 01:07:09.280
twenty ten, Mark Zuckerberg stated an interviewed with the Crunchy
967
01:07:09.280 --> 01:07:12.119
Awards in San Francisco. He said privacy is a social
968
01:07:12.159 --> 01:07:15.000
norm of the past. There's headlines that I test that.
969
01:07:15.039 --> 01:07:17.920
By the way, everybody, you can fact check everything that
970
01:07:18.000 --> 01:07:20.880
I say, even in the book. You know, I've got
971
01:07:20.920 --> 01:07:27.159
an over four hundred footnotes with the source of anything
972
01:07:27.199 --> 01:07:32.679
that I'm stating, because and all credible sources. So anyways,
973
01:07:32.760 --> 01:07:36.239
Zuckerberg says this in twenty ten, I had been out
974
01:07:36.280 --> 01:07:38.880
for a while, I was watching the industry. My jaw dropped.
975
01:07:38.920 --> 01:07:40.840
I watched his interview and I was like, oh my god,
976
01:07:41.880 --> 01:07:45.840
this is not why we invented what had become social networking.
977
01:07:47.119 --> 01:07:50.360
You know, we invented social networking so we could make
978
01:07:50.400 --> 01:07:53.599
the world a more compassionate, loving place that we could
979
01:07:53.599 --> 01:07:57.960
stay connected. We could use technology to better stay in
980
01:07:58.039 --> 01:08:00.280
touch with our family and our friends, our love and
981
01:08:00.320 --> 01:08:02.880
find like minded people and really, you know, get this
982
01:08:02.960 --> 01:08:07.199
world in a better situation. We didn't invent social media
983
01:08:07.880 --> 01:08:12.440
so people could become manipulated and targeted and their opinions
984
01:08:12.440 --> 01:08:16.920
could be you know, affected and their purchase decisions. That
985
01:08:16.960 --> 01:08:20.319
wasn't the point. So anyway, you know, fast forward, I
986
01:08:20.319 --> 01:08:22.760
have a TED talk if everybody wants to watch, it's
987
01:08:22.800 --> 01:08:25.960
a nine minute I did in twenty twenty on the
988
01:08:26.079 --> 01:08:30.079
rise of surveillance capitalism purposely short because we don't have
989
01:08:30.119 --> 01:08:32.760
as much time to you know, take a break and
990
01:08:32.840 --> 01:08:35.159
watch things. But you know, everything that I do is entertaining.
991
01:08:35.239 --> 01:08:37.760
So whether you're watching my dead talk, whether you're reading
992
01:08:37.800 --> 01:08:41.479
this book. I have a sense of humor. So you're
993
01:08:41.479 --> 01:08:43.399
going to chuckle all the way through as you read
994
01:08:43.479 --> 01:08:48.279
the stories, hear the stories you know from in the trenches.
995
01:08:48.760 --> 01:08:52.159
And then yes, Chris, absolutely, we'll talk about how do
996
01:08:52.239 --> 01:08:53.560
we fix this mess?
997
01:08:53.760 --> 01:08:58.079
Yeah, First, before we get to that, let's bring the
998
01:08:58.159 --> 01:09:01.680
attention to, well, what you believe to be some of
999
01:09:01.720 --> 01:09:07.159
the most dangerous aspects of this. Not only has this
1000
01:09:07.279 --> 01:09:13.960
surveillance capitalism crept in to our society in a sense
1001
01:09:14.039 --> 01:09:17.800
that it's selling to us, it's a marketing tool, but
1002
01:09:17.920 --> 01:09:24.079
there are deeper layers. The algorithms affect people's decisions when
1003
01:09:24.119 --> 01:09:28.800
it comes to politics, it's affecting younger people's mental health.
1004
01:09:29.239 --> 01:09:35.079
And there's this layer of deception that is covering our
1005
01:09:35.119 --> 01:09:39.720
reality based on the technology that we're interacting with. We're
1006
01:09:39.720 --> 01:09:44.880
stuck in echo chambers. The algorithm is determining what people
1007
01:09:45.000 --> 01:09:49.039
are thinking, where we're going, and where society is headed
1008
01:09:49.079 --> 01:09:54.479
as a whole. How advanced are these algorithms and what
1009
01:09:54.520 --> 01:09:56.560
do you think the end goal is for all of this?
1010
01:09:58.560 --> 01:10:01.840
Wow, that's and it's amazing. We can stay calm with
1011
01:10:01.880 --> 01:10:07.319
the way that you just you know, presented that bundle
1012
01:10:07.439 --> 01:10:11.479
of questions. So everybody, I came back in Web two
1013
01:10:12.680 --> 01:10:15.119
and I started a beta project. This is how I
1014
01:10:15.159 --> 01:10:18.439
got to be friends with Tim berners Lee. You know,
1015
01:10:18.520 --> 01:10:21.399
unbeknownst to me in the beta project in the early
1016
01:10:21.439 --> 01:10:26.039
twenty tens, you know, eleven, twelve, thirteen fourteen, Sir Tim
1017
01:10:26.159 --> 01:10:29.640
was providing feedback as one of our beta users and
1018
01:10:29.720 --> 01:10:32.680
not telling us who he was. But it was really
1019
01:10:32.720 --> 01:10:36.079
spectacular as I learned that he was. Because you know,
1020
01:10:36.119 --> 01:10:38.840
it's like, the idea is, how about a privacy centric
1021
01:10:39.640 --> 01:10:43.079
social media company? And that I built a company that
1022
01:10:43.119 --> 01:10:46.840
today is known as me We MEWE. Now. I left
1023
01:10:46.840 --> 01:10:49.000
me We about three years ago to write the book.
1024
01:10:50.079 --> 01:10:55.560
Meta had interfered. Meta Facebook had interfered very significantly according
1025
01:10:55.600 --> 01:11:00.920
to our research, and I realized that the problem is
1026
01:11:00.920 --> 01:11:05.399
bigger than one company. So, you know, and but me
1027
01:11:05.520 --> 01:11:08.239
we still exist, you know, just just an fyi for
1028
01:11:08.399 --> 01:11:10.880
I came back and Web two. I built this great company.
1029
01:11:10.960 --> 01:11:16.720
We got twenty million users, no advertising, fascinating privacy Bill
1030
01:11:16.760 --> 01:11:20.600
of Rights, No targeted material, no news line you know,
1031
01:11:20.800 --> 01:11:23.920
jigging around, you know all that stuff, news lines and
1032
01:11:23.960 --> 01:11:28.359
timeline order, no boosted content, no ads, et cetera beautiful
1033
01:11:29.439 --> 01:11:34.720
freemium model. The idea was people love what's free, and
1034
01:11:34.760 --> 01:11:38.239
then you know, you can and offer them extra features.
1035
01:11:38.720 --> 01:11:43.079
So our revenue models started to work very well in
1036
01:11:43.119 --> 01:11:50.399
twenty nineteen, twenty and twenty one. Here's the thing. There
1037
01:11:50.600 --> 01:11:54.159
is a huge data ecosystem. Another one of these things
1038
01:11:54.159 --> 01:11:58.319
that we can't see, field, touch, here, smell, taste, anything, right,
1039
01:11:58.880 --> 01:12:05.560
But it's there. And so they the proverbial they, and
1040
01:12:05.640 --> 01:12:12.119
they is the government, the social media companies, the advertisers,
1041
01:12:12.199 --> 01:12:19.479
the marketers, the nefarious governments. Anybody who wants to manipulate
1042
01:12:19.560 --> 01:12:24.520
and target your opinions, your votes, your purchase decisions, has
1043
01:12:24.560 --> 01:12:31.119
your data. And in the case of TikTok, it's documented
1044
01:12:32.000 --> 01:12:36.119
that biometric data Americans biometric data, you know, your thumbprint,
1045
01:12:36.159 --> 01:12:40.239
your eye, whatever, using to log in, that's being fed
1046
01:12:40.319 --> 01:12:43.359
right to the Chinese government. Now, your biometric data doesn't change.
1047
01:12:44.000 --> 01:12:46.560
So if somebody has your fingerprint, they have it forever.
1048
01:12:46.640 --> 01:12:49.520
If they have your eye, they have it forever. If
1049
01:12:49.560 --> 01:12:52.760
they have any biometric of yours. It's forever. It doesn't
1050
01:12:52.840 --> 01:12:55.239
change during your lifetime. So if you're a thirteen year
1051
01:12:55.239 --> 01:12:59.359
old kid and TikTok now has a biometric data on you,
1052
01:12:59.439 --> 01:13:02.159
guess what they have it until you know you're dead.
1053
01:13:03.000 --> 01:13:08.439
So just putting it in perspective there, Now, what can happen?
1054
01:13:09.039 --> 01:13:13.159
You know, Chris, like you said, the disruption of democracy
1055
01:13:13.640 --> 01:13:16.239
and you know we hear this every day. You know,
1056
01:13:16.439 --> 01:13:21.800
foreign adversarial countries are targeting us. They're they're you know,
1057
01:13:22.000 --> 01:13:24.960
invading our computers, they're doing this, they're doing that to
1058
01:13:25.000 --> 01:13:30.800
the government, to every possible system. But they're also you know,
1059
01:13:31.600 --> 01:13:35.520
getting out propaganda, they're interfering and the marketers are too,
1060
01:13:35.840 --> 01:13:39.439
even in our own elections, because one side or the
1061
01:13:39.479 --> 01:13:43.680
other is paying. Anybody can pay to get into your
1062
01:13:43.760 --> 01:13:47.920
news feed. And that's terrifying and more terrifying, think about this.
1063
01:13:49.399 --> 01:13:54.600
Meta has about half the world's population on their platforms,
1064
01:13:54.640 --> 01:13:59.680
half the world's population on Facebook. About half of Facebook
1065
01:13:59.680 --> 01:14:04.520
members get their news on Facebook. Now, who's in charge
1066
01:14:04.560 --> 01:14:10.439
of what news they're seeing? Facebook? Yeah, so think about
1067
01:14:11.159 --> 01:14:17.399
the filters that are being perpetrated on you, affecting how
1068
01:14:17.439 --> 01:14:21.800
you see the world. Now, for the example of Google searches.
1069
01:14:21.920 --> 01:14:25.239
Take it to Google because this is so documented now
1070
01:14:25.359 --> 01:14:29.760
because Google was just found guilty of antitrust infringement in
1071
01:14:29.800 --> 01:14:34.199
the United States of America. This is huge. Everybody Google has,
1072
01:14:34.359 --> 01:14:36.920
you know, can spend billions of dollars in lawyers to
1073
01:14:37.000 --> 01:14:41.880
fight the case they lost. They not only dominate the
1074
01:14:41.920 --> 01:14:46.079
search industry, which we all know, and this doesn't work.
1075
01:14:46.359 --> 01:14:50.960
Capitalism works beautifully until it turns into monopolism. When it
1076
01:14:51.000 --> 01:14:55.119
becomes monopolies, then it acts not in the interest of
1077
01:14:55.159 --> 01:14:59.319
the customer but the interest of the company alone. So
1078
01:14:59.439 --> 01:15:03.279
Google is found they manipulate everything, you know, they manipulate
1079
01:15:03.720 --> 01:15:07.720
all your searches. So if you're searching for something at
1080
01:15:07.760 --> 01:15:10.119
the top of the search results is going to be
1081
01:15:10.600 --> 01:15:13.960
a product or service or something that Google's connected to,
1082
01:15:14.520 --> 01:15:17.239
somebody paid Google to get it up there, or it's
1083
01:15:17.239 --> 01:15:20.279
something that Google makes money on. So I mean the
1084
01:15:20.359 --> 01:15:23.960
court case, you know, it's just really stunning. It's like, Wow,
1085
01:15:24.159 --> 01:15:25.960
we knew it was bad, but we didn't know it
1086
01:15:25.960 --> 01:15:28.680
was this bad because they were so good at discretion
1087
01:15:29.319 --> 01:15:33.079
about it. And remember Google had a mantra for those
1088
01:15:33.119 --> 01:15:35.039
of you who may remember now it's six years ago.
1089
01:15:35.119 --> 01:15:38.560
They got rid of it, do no evil. That was
1090
01:15:38.600 --> 01:15:42.119
their mantra. Yeah, and in twenty eighteen it kind of
1091
01:15:42.319 --> 01:15:48.279
discreetly and quietly just disappeared from their ambionce. So but
1092
01:15:48.439 --> 01:15:52.840
here's here's what we've got. We've got civil discourse at
1093
01:15:52.920 --> 01:15:57.800
risk because as we see so much hate in our
1094
01:15:57.840 --> 01:16:02.199
own country between one side the other, Republicans and Democrats,
1095
01:16:02.319 --> 01:16:07.600
megas and not megas, you know, progressives and conservatives. This
1096
01:16:07.760 --> 01:16:14.880
is unprecedent everybody, because disagreement is actually the foundation of democracy,
1097
01:16:14.920 --> 01:16:19.680
it's the backbone. We should be cherishing disagreement. We should
1098
01:16:19.760 --> 01:16:22.399
appreciate our neighbor as a different opinion than us and
1099
01:16:22.560 --> 01:16:26.079
just go, well, cool, that's that's interesting to learn about.
1100
01:16:26.159 --> 01:16:26.359
You know.
1101
01:16:27.279 --> 01:16:32.600
Instead, we're being salted and peppered so that we actually
1102
01:16:32.760 --> 01:16:36.319
think we hate each other. No, we don't. We're being
1103
01:16:36.359 --> 01:16:40.399
manipulated to do that. We're being manipulated so that democracy
1104
01:16:40.439 --> 01:16:46.000
can get disrupted, civil discourse gets eroded, and we've got
1105
01:16:46.000 --> 01:16:46.479
a problem.
1106
01:16:46.479 --> 01:16:52.039
Everything that also ties into this illusion of choice that
1107
01:16:52.119 --> 01:16:56.239
we're being presented. All these corporations seem to be being
1108
01:16:56.319 --> 01:17:01.920
absorbed into one entity, and anything that starts out beneficial
1109
01:17:02.520 --> 01:17:05.760
is going to be bought out and then become part
1110
01:17:05.920 --> 01:17:11.239
of this one corporate system. It's providing us this illusion
1111
01:17:11.319 --> 01:17:17.560
that we have choices coke pepsi between presidential candidates whenever
1112
01:17:18.319 --> 01:17:23.399
we're being corralled into the same ideologies. But it's an
1113
01:17:23.479 --> 01:17:26.439
illusion that we have this choice to choose from it.
1114
01:17:29.439 --> 01:17:32.720
Well, and that's that's so interesting, because let's talk about
1115
01:17:32.760 --> 01:17:36.880
the premises of capitalism. Because I'm a capitalist, I love capitalism,
1116
01:17:36.920 --> 01:17:42.720
an entrepreneur obviously, and also today one of the you know,
1117
01:17:42.760 --> 01:17:47.159
the world's leading technology thought leaders on all the topics,
1118
01:17:47.199 --> 01:17:50.319
you know, published widely, you know, from the Wall Street
1119
01:17:50.399 --> 01:17:55.359
Journal to the La Times, all different perspectives, Fox Newsweek,
1120
01:17:56.119 --> 01:17:58.960
you know, you name it, you know, squawk boxes, just
1121
01:17:59.000 --> 01:18:03.600
on squawk Box, Susan Forbes, because I took common sense,
1122
01:18:04.600 --> 01:18:08.840
because you know, and but here's here, here's what we've got.
1123
01:18:08.920 --> 01:18:14.239
We've got this complete manipulation and the economic system called
1124
01:18:14.319 --> 01:18:19.800
capitalism works perfectly, particularly in republics like ours with strict
1125
01:18:19.960 --> 01:18:26.319
antitrust laws, because capitalism needs a free market. In other words,
1126
01:18:26.760 --> 01:18:29.600
we must have the ability for entrepreneurs to enter the
1127
01:18:29.640 --> 01:18:33.319
market and offer their products and services, find investors. Of course,
1128
01:18:33.640 --> 01:18:36.920
that's their job, build the product or service, that's their job,
1129
01:18:37.560 --> 01:18:39.439
but we've got to have make sure that they can
1130
01:18:39.760 --> 01:18:45.359
do that. And what happens in capitalism without these sort
1131
01:18:45.359 --> 01:18:50.079
of you know, free market boundaries, is that capitalism turns
1132
01:18:50.119 --> 01:18:53.800
into monopolism. And that, Chris, is exactly what you just described.
1133
01:18:54.159 --> 01:18:57.199
And in my book, everybody remember this one because you're
1134
01:18:57.239 --> 01:19:00.359
gonna want to. You know, it's restoring our sanity online.
1135
01:19:00.880 --> 01:19:05.319
I'm going to talk about big AG, big energy, and
1136
01:19:05.439 --> 01:19:10.920
big tech because there are fascinating parallels in the evolution
1137
01:19:11.640 --> 01:19:16.239
of these large sectors as they go from free market
1138
01:19:16.560 --> 01:19:20.199
to monopolies, and then they squeeze out the free market
1139
01:19:20.239 --> 01:19:24.159
and then they stop functioning well, and then we're no
1140
01:19:24.279 --> 01:19:29.159
longer the customer. Think about it at Meta, at Google,
1141
01:19:30.039 --> 01:19:33.760
who's the customer? The customer is the advertiser, the marketer,
1142
01:19:33.960 --> 01:19:39.079
the political operative, the adversarial entity, whoever wants to target
1143
01:19:39.119 --> 01:19:43.720
and manipulate you. What are you? You're the product? Yes, right?
1144
01:19:43.800 --> 01:19:46.159
And even on social media, even in big tech.
1145
01:19:46.239 --> 01:19:48.640
You can even see it in all entertainment, in films
1146
01:19:48.680 --> 01:19:51.359
and movies, the propaganda slips into it all.
1147
01:19:53.560 --> 01:19:57.640
Absolutely. And this here's the thing, everybody, It's actually not
1148
01:19:57.720 --> 01:20:00.399
that hard to fix. This is the good news. This
1149
01:20:00.439 --> 01:20:03.640
stuff is not that hard to fix. And if you're
1150
01:20:03.680 --> 01:20:08.079
anti government, I'm sorry, but you know, and I'm a libertarian,
1151
01:20:08.359 --> 01:20:11.319
but we the government must help. If the government just
1152
01:20:11.439 --> 01:20:14.680
hadn't succeeded in a case that was started under Trump's
1153
01:20:14.680 --> 01:20:19.960
first administration, that was prosecuted under Biden's administration, if the
1154
01:20:20.000 --> 01:20:23.640
government hadn't succeeded. You know, this is the first time,
1155
01:20:23.680 --> 01:20:25.640
really since the AT and T breakup. This is we're
1156
01:20:25.640 --> 01:20:28.319
going back like decades since the government has had a
1157
01:20:28.359 --> 01:20:31.520
really successful big case. I mean, we're screwed if the
1158
01:20:31.520 --> 01:20:35.239
government doesn't succeed at this and the government has a
1159
01:20:35.279 --> 01:20:38.199
case against Meta. Now it's been going on for years.
1160
01:20:38.920 --> 01:20:42.279
A judge just set the trial day for April fourteenth,
1161
01:20:42.279 --> 01:20:45.880
twenty twenty five. This is huge news. Meta has spent
1162
01:20:46.399 --> 01:20:49.359
you know, countless millions of dollars trying to get that
1163
01:20:49.439 --> 01:20:53.000
case thrown out. It's going to court. Now, here's the thing.
1164
01:20:53.920 --> 01:20:59.039
If we can manage the free market, we can have
1165
01:20:59.079 --> 01:21:05.640
an incredibly well functioning capitalist society that supports democracy. And
1166
01:21:05.720 --> 01:21:08.920
so we need the government for this. Okay, this is important.
1167
01:21:08.960 --> 01:21:12.880
We also need the government to help our kids. It's
1168
01:21:12.880 --> 01:21:15.880
because you talked about mental health we need the government
1169
01:21:15.880 --> 01:21:18.600
to help our kids. And it doesn't really matter what
1170
01:21:18.640 --> 01:21:21.399
age you are. But you know, if you've you've got
1171
01:21:21.399 --> 01:21:25.039
to you know, a kid who's eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen,
1172
01:21:25.560 --> 01:21:27.800
you're up to the age really about twenty five or
1173
01:21:27.880 --> 01:21:31.039
thirty right now. But if you know a kid who's
1174
01:21:31.359 --> 01:21:33.720
under the age of thirteen, and they're on social media,
1175
01:21:34.159 --> 01:21:35.840
and if you take a look at what they're able
1176
01:21:35.880 --> 01:21:40.640
to see on YouTube, on TikTok, on Insta, you know
1177
01:21:41.880 --> 01:21:45.720
the way people can access them on Facebook because they
1178
01:21:45.840 --> 01:21:46.520
like about their age.
1179
01:21:46.640 --> 01:21:47.880
All you have to do is press a book.
1180
01:21:48.039 --> 01:21:50.359
Yes, I'm over twenty one.
1181
01:21:50.600 --> 01:21:51.239
Is that simple?
1182
01:21:51.399 --> 01:21:55.159
Yeah? Right, right exactly, And then and then from then
1183
01:21:55.199 --> 01:21:58.560
on the system recognizes you as being over twenty one
1184
01:21:58.640 --> 01:22:01.680
or over thirteen. I remember Facebook, it's thirteen and over.
1185
01:22:02.279 --> 01:22:04.920
And they just you know, announced about a month ago
1186
01:22:05.039 --> 01:22:09.520
or so some new voluntary rules for Instagram. This is
1187
01:22:09.560 --> 01:22:13.640
a joke, it's the same thing. So you get on Instagram,
1188
01:22:13.680 --> 01:22:16.399
you're saying I'm twenty one, and you could be eleven
1189
01:22:16.479 --> 01:22:18.840
or twelve or ten or eight or thirteen or fourteen.
1190
01:22:19.159 --> 01:22:21.159
But then the system's just gonna recognize you because it's
1191
01:22:21.159 --> 01:22:25.560
all voluntary, so the government needs to help. We've got
1192
01:22:25.560 --> 01:22:29.560
to make sure and listen. This just happened in Australia.
1193
01:22:30.039 --> 01:22:32.760
It's happening in places around the world right now. And
1194
01:22:33.399 --> 01:22:37.159
you know what is interesting. It looks like sixteen may
1195
01:22:37.239 --> 01:22:41.439
ultimately become the new normal for how old you are
1196
01:22:41.479 --> 01:22:45.600
in order to get on social media. Curiously me we
1197
01:22:45.800 --> 01:22:49.399
the company the last company I started, and we launched
1198
01:22:49.479 --> 01:22:53.039
that in twenty sixteen after a several year beta, you know, tests,
1199
01:22:53.600 --> 01:22:56.319
but we always made it sixteen. But we weren't about
1200
01:22:56.359 --> 01:23:01.600
to create a database of your information with verification, so
1201
01:23:01.640 --> 01:23:04.279
we didn't verify. But we asked our uths sixteen or
1202
01:23:04.319 --> 01:23:07.760
over because I think that's a pretty good safe age
1203
01:23:08.079 --> 01:23:11.319
to start on social media. Maybe at eighteen and over
1204
01:23:11.399 --> 01:23:14.000
you could be targeted or you could allow your data
1205
01:23:14.039 --> 01:23:17.880
to be used to target So there's a lot of
1206
01:23:17.920 --> 01:23:21.600
things here. But our kids, I mean, come on. The bullying,
1207
01:23:21.960 --> 01:23:25.640
the body shaming and body shaming and bullying don't just
1208
01:23:25.800 --> 01:23:29.239
come from peers. They also come from people who are
1209
01:23:29.279 --> 01:23:33.119
fifty or forty or thirty pretending to be teenagers as
1210
01:23:33.119 --> 01:23:35.520
they register and say they're a fourteen year old when
1211
01:23:35.520 --> 01:23:38.640
they're a fifty year old. The creeps are everywhere, and
1212
01:23:38.760 --> 01:23:41.720
the bots and trol creeps are everywhere because they also
1213
01:23:41.840 --> 01:23:44.600
know from nefarious entities that this is a way to
1214
01:23:44.680 --> 01:23:50.159
disrupt democracy. Go after the next generation, screw them up,
1215
01:23:50.319 --> 01:23:53.600
screw their heads up. So we've got a lot to
1216
01:23:53.640 --> 01:23:56.840
do to make sure that kids are talking to kids
1217
01:23:57.319 --> 01:24:00.359
and they're not getting creeped out. And also, you know
1218
01:24:00.880 --> 01:24:04.920
the algorithm which you mentioned earlier, The algorithms now are supercharged,
1219
01:24:05.520 --> 01:24:10.199
so this is where AI comes in. Previously, you know,
1220
01:24:10.279 --> 01:24:12.600
even in twenty twelve when I was on you know
1221
01:24:12.640 --> 01:24:15.399
that interview on Fox and I said, this is creepy
1222
01:24:15.479 --> 01:24:17.600
the Dave Facebook when public, I said, this is just
1223
01:24:17.600 --> 01:24:20.600
creepy what they're doing. You know this algorithm that's really
1224
01:24:20.680 --> 01:24:24.600
getting everything on you and then targeting you like that nanoseconds. Well,
1225
01:24:24.640 --> 01:24:28.319
now it really is nanoseconds because that algorithm had to
1226
01:24:28.319 --> 01:24:33.960
be constantly refined by a human programmer who was updating
1227
01:24:34.000 --> 01:24:36.119
it all the time, and then it would aggregate this
1228
01:24:36.239 --> 01:24:41.800
information and then you it would Now with AI gathering
1229
01:24:41.840 --> 01:24:46.880
this information, AI can ab test your brain in nanoseconds,
1230
01:24:47.199 --> 01:24:49.760
which is why all of a sudden there's a new phenomenon.
1231
01:24:50.359 --> 01:24:53.319
Never mind the kids. We all know older people now
1232
01:24:53.720 --> 01:24:56.920
who can't get on social media. They're stuck on TikTok,
1233
01:24:56.960 --> 01:25:01.039
they're stuck on X. This is because AI has now
1234
01:25:01.239 --> 01:25:07.039
supercharged the targeting algorithm. It gets content in your face,
1235
01:25:07.479 --> 01:25:10.520
It keeps you addicted. It knows exactly in a nanosecond,
1236
01:25:10.880 --> 01:25:12.840
how to get you not to put the phone down.
1237
01:25:14.079 --> 01:25:17.000
It's unbelievable. This is so out of control.
1238
01:25:17.319 --> 01:25:20.279
Let's get a little deeper into some of this technology.
1239
01:25:20.359 --> 01:25:25.239
You mentioned bots and some of the trolls that may
1240
01:25:25.279 --> 01:25:29.479
not even be people may be algorithm based. Tell us
1241
01:25:29.520 --> 01:25:32.159
a little bit more about your understanding of this and
1242
01:25:32.199 --> 01:25:34.319
maybe how to become aware of it better.
1243
01:25:36.880 --> 01:25:39.600
Very good, thanks man. Also, the book has adeppendix on
1244
01:25:39.720 --> 01:25:44.119
exactly how Box controls. Another thing this is not complicated
1245
01:25:44.119 --> 01:25:47.000
to get rid of. There's there's a catch twenty two.
1246
01:25:48.399 --> 01:25:53.039
Social media companies need their box and trolls because they
1247
01:25:53.119 --> 01:25:56.319
boost the engagement, they boost their revenue.
1248
01:25:56.960 --> 01:25:57.239
You know.
1249
01:25:57.760 --> 01:26:01.199
It's so it's it's a real straight catch twenty two
1250
01:26:02.359 --> 01:26:04.880
because first of all, and you look at a blue
1251
01:26:04.920 --> 01:26:08.680
check an X for example, you know must roll out
1252
01:26:08.760 --> 01:26:12.239
this blue check idea a couple of years ago, and
1253
01:26:12.319 --> 01:26:14.279
he said, hey, you know what this is. We're gonna
1254
01:26:14.319 --> 01:26:17.600
this way, we'll verify and we'll we'll help control the
1255
01:26:17.600 --> 01:26:22.359
bots and trolls. But when it actually rolled out, it
1256
01:26:22.399 --> 01:26:27.199
doesn't verify anything. Any boty troll in a farm and
1257
01:26:27.399 --> 01:26:30.000
we'll call a buttontrol farm. You know what a bot
1258
01:26:30.079 --> 01:26:32.720
really is, you know, basically a bot a troll can
1259
01:26:32.760 --> 01:26:37.800
be a person managing many of these accounts. But then
1260
01:26:37.880 --> 01:26:40.000
you all can be programmed to use a credit card
1261
01:26:40.079 --> 01:26:44.199
number to get a blue checks on hard Any programer
1262
01:26:44.239 --> 01:26:46.880
can do that. You can program you know, a million
1263
01:26:46.880 --> 01:26:50.600
of them, and you know, and that's easy. Any nefarious
1264
01:26:50.640 --> 01:26:52.680
government can do that, son, you know, and the idea
1265
01:26:52.720 --> 01:26:56.359
of the blue check was your posts then get better visibility,
1266
01:26:56.399 --> 01:27:00.760
get boosted, all that stuff. So you know, that's an
1267
01:27:00.760 --> 01:27:03.560
idea that fell by the wayside when the revenue was
1268
01:27:03.560 --> 01:27:07.359
a parent and when it became a parent that you know,
1269
01:27:07.600 --> 01:27:11.680
X already has a big issue. You know, it's it's documented,
1270
01:27:11.760 --> 01:27:16.520
you know, both for Biden and for Musk that somewhere
1271
01:27:16.520 --> 01:27:20.159
between fifty and seventy percent of their followers or bots controls.
1272
01:27:20.880 --> 01:27:24.560
So but you know, no one SNeW anything about it, right,
1273
01:27:24.640 --> 01:27:27.319
there's like that, you know, Okay, those millions of you know,
1274
01:27:27.439 --> 01:27:29.760
followers that the number looks good. We got to keep
1275
01:27:29.760 --> 01:27:35.079
it so but this is this is a very real factor,
1276
01:27:35.880 --> 01:27:42.000
and so listen, there's something that for everybody premise. I
1277
01:27:42.039 --> 01:27:44.880
am one of the world's leading privacy advocates. I've been
1278
01:27:44.920 --> 01:27:48.079
ranked that way. You know, this is not me spouting
1279
01:27:48.119 --> 01:27:51.560
it's you know, it's like I've been ranked consistently. I've
1280
01:27:51.600 --> 01:27:55.760
been awarded by governments, also by ranking systems on the web.
1281
01:27:57.039 --> 01:28:02.079
I've been against user verification systems for fifteen years since
1282
01:28:02.079 --> 01:28:05.439
somebody came up with the idea on government committees. I
1283
01:28:05.560 --> 01:28:10.680
joined government committees to push against this. But it's a
1284
01:28:10.720 --> 01:28:13.960
new day, it's a new reality. So you know, first
1285
01:28:13.960 --> 01:28:19.119
of all, we must protect anonymity for whistleblowers, marginalize people,
1286
01:28:19.239 --> 01:28:22.319
et cetera. We've got to protect their anonymity. But on
1287
01:28:22.439 --> 01:28:27.479
social media, just social media, they already know who we
1288
01:28:27.520 --> 01:28:30.319
are anyhow, they're just not getting rid of the bots
1289
01:28:30.359 --> 01:28:33.800
and trolls. But they already know who we are because
1290
01:28:33.840 --> 01:28:35.520
the government knows who we are. Remember went through this,
1291
01:28:36.279 --> 01:28:38.479
you know, there's so much data. There was a Guardian
1292
01:28:38.520 --> 01:28:41.520
reporter a few years ago just acted as a consumer
1293
01:28:41.560 --> 01:28:43.720
and wrote the facebooks that I like to know, get
1294
01:28:43.760 --> 01:28:46.680
my data that you have on me. They sent him
1295
01:28:46.720 --> 01:28:50.279
sixty thousand pages of data because you're allowed to request
1296
01:28:51.279 --> 01:28:54.560
sixty thousand pigs of data on one person. Because they
1297
01:28:54.600 --> 01:28:57.399
know everything. They know when you pick your nose. I mean, really,
1298
01:28:57.760 --> 01:29:02.560
here's the thing. These algorithms supercharit ai are so smart.
1299
01:29:02.600 --> 01:29:06.000
They can anticipate your next thought and then they can
1300
01:29:06.079 --> 01:29:11.680
manipulate your next thought. That's creepy, very great. So what
1301
01:29:11.800 --> 01:29:16.600
we've got to do, everybody is your social media. I
1302
01:29:16.920 --> 01:29:21.520
have decided that to preserve our privacy and to save
1303
01:29:21.560 --> 01:29:25.920
our data, and to save our children and ourselves from
1304
01:29:25.920 --> 01:29:31.199
being manipulated by you know, bots, trolls, weirdos whatever, we've
1305
01:29:31.199 --> 01:29:34.239
got to user ID verification, which is just what the
1306
01:29:34.279 --> 01:29:37.359
Australian government just decided. Now I haven't studied their user
1307
01:29:37.359 --> 01:29:41.680
IDE verification system, but when user the verification is done right, First,
1308
01:29:41.680 --> 01:29:43.760
of the already know who we are. Everybody born in
1309
01:29:43.760 --> 01:29:45.920
America has a sole security number. The already know who
1310
01:29:45.960 --> 01:29:51.000
we are, so let's stop pretending. And of social media,
1311
01:29:51.079 --> 01:29:53.399
I still believe we can have pseudonyms, no problem. You
1312
01:29:53.399 --> 01:29:57.279
want a pseudonym, great, But if you're a twelve year old,
1313
01:29:57.680 --> 01:29:58.920
you're not going to be on it. If we have
1314
01:29:58.960 --> 01:30:02.159
thirteen is verification and if you're thirteen, you're not going
1315
01:30:02.199 --> 01:30:04.319
to be talking to a fifty year old creep or
1316
01:30:04.520 --> 01:30:07.800
a bot control pretending to be one. They won't be
1317
01:30:07.920 --> 01:30:12.000
in the system. You'll be safe. Then we can manage
1318
01:30:12.039 --> 01:30:14.880
the bullying and all these other things. You won't be targeted.
1319
01:30:14.880 --> 01:30:17.600
There'll be no boost of content. Now that's no marketing.
1320
01:30:17.640 --> 01:30:22.520
It'll be you timeline order, connecting to you know, your friends,
1321
01:30:22.600 --> 01:30:26.359
et cetera. So we've got to get there. We've got
1322
01:30:26.359 --> 01:30:29.159
to get there now. And for the rest of us
1323
01:30:29.800 --> 01:30:34.680
on social media, it means when we're talking about you know,
1324
01:30:35.159 --> 01:30:37.520
a political idea or you know, whatever it is the
1325
01:30:37.640 --> 01:30:42.520
environment or you know energy, or you know, fundamental issues,
1326
01:30:42.600 --> 01:30:46.960
vaccines or women's right, whatever it is, that we'll be
1327
01:30:46.960 --> 01:30:50.760
talking to real people and the company when they can
1328
01:30:50.840 --> 01:30:53.319
use pseudonyms, I can use the pseudonym. I'm a big
1329
01:30:53.319 --> 01:30:55.680
fan of pseudonyms because you know, you don't want to
1330
01:30:55.760 --> 01:30:57.800
use your real name all the time everywhere. You don't
1331
01:30:57.800 --> 01:31:00.239
want to be that transparent. But if you bring in
1332
01:31:00.239 --> 01:31:03.720
the terms and conditions, you're breaking the law. Then the
1333
01:31:03.760 --> 01:31:06.560
site knows, and if you're not a real person, then
1334
01:31:06.560 --> 01:31:09.279
the site knows you're not going to be there. Social media, right,
1335
01:31:09.720 --> 01:31:14.079
this is one thing that we can do that governments
1336
01:31:14.119 --> 01:31:17.079
are going to mandate, you know, the Australian government just did.
1337
01:31:17.119 --> 01:31:21.319
They just passed it. Very interesting and controversial for sure,
1338
01:31:21.399 --> 01:31:23.359
because there's a lot of bots controls that's going to
1339
01:31:23.439 --> 01:31:27.159
threaten you know, millions, hundreds of millions of bots controls
1340
01:31:27.159 --> 01:31:30.399
are gonna get threatened by this. And some you know,
1341
01:31:30.520 --> 01:31:35.479
good people who are concerned about the right to anonymity.
1342
01:31:35.560 --> 01:31:38.039
Now here's the thing. I'm a firm believer in the
1343
01:31:38.119 --> 01:31:43.600
right to privacy and the right to anonymity in other arenas, whistleblowers,
1344
01:31:43.800 --> 01:31:47.720
you marginalize people. You know, everybody should be protected, but
1345
01:31:47.840 --> 01:31:51.920
not in social media. Let's just carve that out and go, okay,
1346
01:31:51.960 --> 01:31:54.640
you want to be in social media. You know, we
1347
01:31:54.760 --> 01:31:57.239
got to make sure you're a real person so that
1348
01:31:57.319 --> 01:32:03.119
we can save civil discourse, save democracy, save our kids,
1349
01:32:03.159 --> 01:32:05.640
save our mental health and our kids' mental health, and
1350
01:32:05.680 --> 01:32:09.640
get back to the beautiful thing what social media is
1351
01:32:09.640 --> 01:32:13.640
really designed for, which is connectivity, which is really you know,
1352
01:32:14.159 --> 01:32:18.439
enhancing you know, the human family and us you know,
1353
01:32:18.720 --> 01:32:22.439
It can be very nurturing when you're connected in timeline order,
1354
01:32:22.520 --> 01:32:25.159
where an algorithm isn't deciding if you should see your
1355
01:32:25.199 --> 01:32:28.720
grandmother's post or this outrageous post for control, which is
1356
01:32:28.760 --> 01:32:30.960
going to engage you more. Well, the heck with grandma.
1357
01:32:31.039 --> 01:32:32.920
They're going to stick that troll post in front of
1358
01:32:32.920 --> 01:32:35.680
you end if the algorithm is running it. So let's
1359
01:32:35.680 --> 01:32:39.079
go to news you know timeline, you know news feeds.
1360
01:32:39.119 --> 01:32:41.720
It works great. Anyway, there's a piece that's great.
1361
01:32:41.720 --> 01:32:45.079
Well, while we're on solutions, what are your thoughts on
1362
01:32:45.159 --> 01:32:49.760
the disturbing trends in AI art, deep fakes and some
1363
01:32:49.880 --> 01:32:53.720
of the deceptions that people are getting sucked into with this,
1364
01:32:54.359 --> 01:32:57.640
Especially with everything that's happened in the past few years,
1365
01:32:57.640 --> 01:33:01.560
there's more and more people just questioning everything, looking for answers,
1366
01:33:02.079 --> 01:33:05.560
and it's become difficult to sift through the nonsense online
1367
01:33:05.960 --> 01:33:10.359
because of this very thing, the not only alteration of information,
1368
01:33:10.520 --> 01:33:13.680
but now they can just make pictures and videos of
1369
01:33:13.800 --> 01:33:16.960
anything they want just by typing in a prompt, and
1370
01:33:17.000 --> 01:33:21.640
it's becoming so real looking that it's difficult for some
1371
01:33:21.720 --> 01:33:24.000
people to tell the difference in This seems to be
1372
01:33:24.119 --> 01:33:29.479
causing problems in certain areas, especially with misinformation about very
1373
01:33:29.479 --> 01:33:31.720
important things.
1374
01:33:32.800 --> 01:33:37.279
This is a huge problem. Again, it's now people can
1375
01:33:37.319 --> 01:33:40.479
do this. Remember there's still plenty of people in the
1376
01:33:40.520 --> 01:33:42.319
world who don't have who have a lot of time
1377
01:33:42.319 --> 01:33:45.760
on their hands, and they for entertainment. They get on
1378
01:33:45.800 --> 01:33:48.880
the web. And now, you know, with the advent of AI,
1379
01:33:49.079 --> 01:33:51.920
you can say to AI, make me a video of
1380
01:33:52.399 --> 01:33:55.960
a twenty twenty seven Core VET with a you know,
1381
01:33:56.119 --> 01:33:59.600
a fifteen hundred horse power engine. Make it look real
1382
01:33:59.760 --> 01:34:04.279
like came from Chevrolet, you know, and boom, and then
1383
01:34:04.359 --> 01:34:07.960
they it gets on the web. It catches the wave.
1384
01:34:08.760 --> 01:34:11.520
Before you know it, Chevrolet has to make announcements. No,
1385
01:34:11.640 --> 01:34:15.520
that's not us, it's not real, you know. Now, now
1386
01:34:15.560 --> 01:34:19.680
there's ways, so you have to listen. Now we shouldn't
1387
01:34:19.720 --> 01:34:21.000
have to do this, but right now you have to
1388
01:34:21.000 --> 01:34:22.840
pay attention. You have to watch. You have to listen
1389
01:34:23.720 --> 01:34:26.279
everything that you see. You have to then look for
1390
01:34:26.399 --> 01:34:32.479
a credible source, a credible news outlet reporting the same thing.
1391
01:34:33.479 --> 01:34:37.640
A credible source, whether you know it's Fox or you know,
1392
01:34:38.079 --> 01:34:41.039
PBS or you know whatever, your outlet has been a
1393
01:34:41.159 --> 01:34:46.039
mainstream credible source, CNN, whoever. I'm you know, I'm calling
1394
01:34:46.039 --> 01:34:51.239
out different sides, but the mainstream outlets so that you
1395
01:34:51.279 --> 01:34:55.359
can verify instead of just watching a deep fake and
1396
01:34:55.399 --> 01:34:57.760
going oh, and then you look at where's that deep
1397
01:34:57.800 --> 01:34:59.439
fake showing up and you're like, oh, it's not showing
1398
01:34:59.520 --> 01:35:03.479
up anywhere, but you know in my news feed. So
1399
01:35:03.680 --> 01:35:05.920
and then you know the problem is that it circulates
1400
01:35:05.960 --> 01:35:10.439
so much before it gets flagged because things spread like
1401
01:35:10.520 --> 01:35:13.279
wildfire on the web, and then they're paid to spread
1402
01:35:13.319 --> 01:35:15.800
like wildfire on the web. So you've got to get
1403
01:35:15.880 --> 01:35:19.119
really good. You can watch it deep fake, and you
1404
01:35:19.159 --> 01:35:24.760
can watch the facial expressions. You can listen for the
1405
01:35:24.920 --> 01:35:27.560
flatlining of the tone. You can listen for things that
1406
01:35:27.640 --> 01:35:32.359
don't sound human. You can listen for certain words that
1407
01:35:32.560 --> 01:35:39.159
are misphrased because it's about reading it and they don't
1408
01:35:39.199 --> 01:35:42.359
know the nuance of the word when you hear. You've
1409
01:35:42.399 --> 01:35:45.640
got to get you know, your antenna up while working
1410
01:35:45.720 --> 01:35:49.960
through this. Now, there are ways in the future and
1411
01:35:50.000 --> 01:35:55.800
these are coming to watermark you know, fake content and
1412
01:35:55.960 --> 01:35:59.520
for systems to be able to identify the content. Because remember,
1413
01:35:59.520 --> 01:36:02.600
with all the same AI can get right back to
1414
01:36:02.640 --> 01:36:05.880
wherever the source of that content is and can flag
1415
01:36:05.920 --> 01:36:08.680
it immediately. Where was the generated where's the you know,
1416
01:36:08.680 --> 01:36:13.199
where is the birth? So you remember, AI is also
1417
01:36:13.319 --> 01:36:17.119
going to be the good guy here. We need AI
1418
01:36:17.800 --> 01:36:21.199
the fight AI, which is going to be really interesting.
1419
01:36:21.239 --> 01:36:23.920
So we've got good AI versus bad AI. It's going
1420
01:36:24.000 --> 01:36:26.680
to be cat and mouse for a while. But you know,
1421
01:36:26.760 --> 01:36:29.760
we've got to get to this because this is also
1422
01:36:30.279 --> 01:36:33.800
very disruptive and it causes you know, listen, it can
1423
01:36:33.840 --> 01:36:37.159
cause riots because all kinds of problems can happen for
1424
01:36:37.359 --> 01:36:41.920
something is flagged as being false now in the future,
1425
01:36:42.079 --> 01:36:45.800
and in the book, in Restoring Our Saturday Online, I'm
1426
01:36:45.840 --> 01:36:48.319
going to talk in the book at three chapters on
1427
01:36:48.359 --> 01:36:52.199
Web three, and I'm also going to talk about Web
1428
01:36:52.279 --> 01:36:55.800
four because for most of you Web three, you don't
1429
01:36:55.840 --> 01:36:58.119
even know what that means anyhow, what the heck is
1430
01:36:58.159 --> 01:37:00.800
Web three? And does it work? And is it for me?
1431
01:37:00.920 --> 01:37:03.479
And you know, when's it ever going to come? Because
1432
01:37:03.479 --> 01:37:06.399
we've heard about Web three for a while. And really,
1433
01:37:06.399 --> 01:37:08.399
if I ask one hundred people to room what's Web three,
1434
01:37:08.720 --> 01:37:10.720
I'm going to get one hundred different answers, and I'm
1435
01:37:10.720 --> 01:37:12.960
going to get most people putting up their hands and saying,
1436
01:37:13.039 --> 01:37:17.319
I really don't know. So for everybody very simply Web
1437
01:37:17.359 --> 01:37:25.239
three is built on blockchain and functions mostly through wallets
1438
01:37:25.319 --> 01:37:32.439
that transact cryptocurrencies. Now, it was a big idea for
1439
01:37:32.560 --> 01:37:36.359
social media, amongst other things. The blockchain, by the way,
1440
01:37:36.479 --> 01:37:40.680
works well for fintech and for some other things. And
1441
01:37:40.760 --> 01:37:43.479
also just to quickly get rid of a myth, blockchain
1442
01:37:43.520 --> 01:37:47.399
doesn't give you any anonymity. So don't think that blockchains
1443
01:37:47.439 --> 01:37:50.039
give you anonymity, because you are totally connected anything you
1444
01:37:50.119 --> 01:37:55.359
do forever. So that's actually a very interesting aspect of blockchain.
1445
01:37:55.600 --> 01:38:00.680
Blockchainels doesn't work well as a building block for high anticipation,
1446
01:38:01.279 --> 01:38:05.319
high membership social media. It's too clunky, it's too slow,
1447
01:38:05.520 --> 01:38:09.159
too expensive, you know, it's it's all wrong. Even though
1448
01:38:09.840 --> 01:38:13.680
visionaries have been working on, you know, having a breakthrough
1449
01:38:13.840 --> 01:38:16.399
in that for years and Tim Berners lead the inventor
1450
01:38:16.399 --> 01:38:18.119
of the web through in the towel two years ago.
1451
01:38:19.079 --> 01:38:22.159
To forget it. Blockchain just doesn't work for social media.
1452
01:38:23.760 --> 01:38:28.439
But move on, and we've got to move on and
1453
01:38:28.479 --> 01:38:31.159
the idea of cryptocurrency. There's another problem with Web three.
1454
01:38:31.159 --> 01:38:34.720
If you've heard about Web three and social media, and
1455
01:38:34.720 --> 01:38:37.239
that is that on a large scale, you know above
1456
01:38:37.359 --> 01:38:41.600
let's say ten to fifty million people. Once you get
1457
01:38:41.600 --> 01:38:45.960
above that, people don't want to do it because Web
1458
01:38:46.000 --> 01:38:51.000
three is really based on commercializing your relationships. In other words,
1459
01:38:51.000 --> 01:38:55.439
the modernization scheme and the moderation scheme are all about
1460
01:38:55.520 --> 01:38:58.960
upvoting and down voting. There's all different ways that you
1461
01:38:59.079 --> 01:39:03.640
can either get a piece of cryptocurrency or give a
1462
01:39:03.640 --> 01:39:07.479
fragment of cryptocurrency to a friend or to somebody or
1463
01:39:07.520 --> 01:39:13.880
a content provider, you know, a creator, and human beings
1464
01:39:14.359 --> 01:39:17.000
don't want to monetize their relationship. This is almost like
1465
01:39:17.000 --> 01:39:20.199
the last frontier, right, and it's been proven because there
1466
01:39:20.199 --> 01:39:23.840
have been social media companies built in Web three since
1467
01:39:23.960 --> 01:39:27.439
twenty seventeen twenty eighteen. They never get more than about
1468
01:39:27.439 --> 01:39:32.039
a million active users. So you know, it's it's just
1469
01:39:32.079 --> 01:39:34.880
not going to work, and we need a better system.
1470
01:39:34.920 --> 01:39:36.600
So in the book, I'm going to bring you to
1471
01:39:36.720 --> 01:39:39.800
Web four and we're going to talk about what really
1472
01:39:40.039 --> 01:39:42.239
is going to work great, and I'm not going to
1473
01:39:42.279 --> 01:39:44.399
throw everything. You know, we're not gonna throw the baby
1474
01:39:44.399 --> 01:39:47.359
out with the bathwater. We're going to take the best
1475
01:39:47.680 --> 01:39:50.680
and we're going to innovate, and some of these things
1476
01:39:50.720 --> 01:39:55.439
are really straightforward, you know, and data portability is coming.
1477
01:39:55.920 --> 01:39:58.079
So you'll be able to download your data off of
1478
01:39:58.119 --> 01:40:01.000
Facebook if you don't like it, move it to somebody
1479
01:40:01.000 --> 01:40:03.800
who's built a product you love, and your friends are
1480
01:40:03.800 --> 01:40:07.199
gonna be able to come there with you, because until now,
1481
01:40:07.680 --> 01:40:10.199
we're stuck in what's called the network effect. And you
1482
01:40:10.239 --> 01:40:12.279
all know it. You might have found the site you
1483
01:40:12.319 --> 01:40:14.920
love that's cool and you think it's really like the
1484
01:40:14.960 --> 01:40:17.560
next cutting edge thing, and it also respects you, and
1485
01:40:18.079 --> 01:40:19.439
you know it takes care of your privy and all
1486
01:40:19.439 --> 01:40:22.640
that stuff, but nobody comes with you. It's called the
1487
01:40:22.680 --> 01:40:26.279
network effect. We're all stuck on Meta because their family
1488
01:40:26.359 --> 01:40:28.079
is there and their friends are. You know, it's more
1489
01:40:28.119 --> 01:40:29.800
than just you taking them. It's more than just you
1490
01:40:29.880 --> 01:40:32.239
taking your family, because then they have their people. It's
1491
01:40:32.279 --> 01:40:37.119
a network effect. That's what happens to monopoly. Imagine if
1492
01:40:37.119 --> 01:40:41.239
you can just download your data in a perfectly organized packet,
1493
01:40:41.279 --> 01:40:43.880
if you're controlling it, you're actually uploading it and downloading it,
1494
01:40:44.399 --> 01:40:47.039
nobody has access to your data, and then you could
1495
01:40:47.079 --> 01:40:51.079
just move with somewhere else, and therefore everybody can. That's
1496
01:40:51.159 --> 01:40:54.760
the free market. Tim berners Lee has invented a system
1497
01:40:54.800 --> 01:40:58.479
for that, a really great protocol called solid pods along
1498
01:40:58.479 --> 01:41:01.880
with a solid wallet so that your identification can be
1499
01:41:01.960 --> 01:41:05.479
managed and your money can be managed inside of a
1500
01:41:05.720 --> 01:41:09.760
very protected pod that you control. It's not controlled by
1501
01:41:09.800 --> 01:41:13.319
the big guys. It's not up in a centralized server system.
1502
01:41:13.760 --> 01:41:18.520
So the future is actually really exciting, Chris, really exciting.
1503
01:41:18.600 --> 01:41:22.880
Well, how should we approach the increasing problem of censorship
1504
01:41:23.159 --> 01:41:27.239
and infringement on our free speech, especially when dealing with
1505
01:41:27.279 --> 01:41:30.800
these platforms. I do this for a living. I have
1506
01:41:30.920 --> 01:41:35.640
been affected by censorship on multiple platforms. Do you think
1507
01:41:35.720 --> 01:41:39.960
there's a way to get out of the situation and
1508
01:41:40.039 --> 01:41:41.640
where we're headed with this right now?
1509
01:41:44.119 --> 01:41:48.720
You know, it's very interesting this question, And you know,
1510
01:41:49.199 --> 01:41:55.279
as a free market person, I also believe that sites
1511
01:41:55.439 --> 01:41:59.960
have the right to make their own terms and conditions
1512
01:42:00.680 --> 01:42:06.079
inside of the federal laws, if not state laws that
1513
01:42:06.159 --> 01:42:13.159
protect kids, you know, and things like that. So if
1514
01:42:13.199 --> 01:42:16.159
this is why we need the free market working so
1515
01:42:16.199 --> 01:42:18.760
that it's not controlled by big tech that just blocks
1516
01:42:18.760 --> 01:42:22.960
you out, for example, but that there are many choices
1517
01:42:23.319 --> 01:42:27.119
for you and me and for everybody, so that you know,
1518
01:42:27.520 --> 01:42:29.960
one guy you know says, oh, you know what, I
1519
01:42:30.239 --> 01:42:32.520
only want this kind of kind of These are my rules,
1520
01:42:32.560 --> 01:42:35.520
Here are my terms and conditions, and another site says,
1521
01:42:35.560 --> 01:42:38.520
here are my terms and conditions, and you know, the
1522
01:42:38.600 --> 01:42:41.359
First Amendment protects their right to do that also, while
1523
01:42:41.359 --> 01:42:43.439
it protects your right to say what you want to say.
1524
01:42:43.960 --> 01:42:49.720
It's interesting the First Amendment protects both. So well, we
1525
01:42:49.960 --> 01:42:54.640
this is again where we must break the stranglehold of
1526
01:42:54.720 --> 01:43:00.319
the monopolies and get back to a high functioning freemonk market,
1527
01:43:01.079 --> 01:43:04.079
which you know is the most effective way for capitalism
1528
01:43:04.079 --> 01:43:07.560
to function anyhow. So that's what we've got to do,
1529
01:43:08.000 --> 01:43:15.680
because you know, we really don't want to regulate what
1530
01:43:16.479 --> 01:43:19.840
how how a site moderates you. That's as bad as censorship,
1531
01:43:20.640 --> 01:43:25.640
because then what happens when an administration changes, you know what,
1532
01:43:25.760 --> 01:43:27.880
you know, it's like, wait a minute, this is this
1533
01:43:27.920 --> 01:43:31.119
is going to get messy. That's that's the slippery slope
1534
01:43:31.119 --> 01:43:34.680
we're going to avoid. And at the same time, we
1535
01:43:34.800 --> 01:43:38.039
want to make sure that you have good outlets, everybody
1536
01:43:38.119 --> 01:43:41.600
has good you know, if there's market demand, that the
1537
01:43:41.640 --> 01:43:44.319
free market works so that you or somebody else can
1538
01:43:44.439 --> 01:43:49.000
create the app where you know, you can reach everybody
1539
01:43:49.000 --> 01:43:52.840
you want to reach. Right now, it's all it's all closed,
1540
01:43:52.880 --> 01:43:56.479
it's all shut down. You know, look at look at them,
1541
01:43:56.760 --> 01:43:58.239
you know, I mean, just look at all the bigger
1542
01:43:58.239 --> 01:44:00.880
ones guys, right, you know, you always know when there's
1543
01:44:01.000 --> 01:44:04.199
monopolies in play because you know, you just look at
1544
01:44:04.239 --> 01:44:07.039
how long the big guy's been there. Now, keep in
1545
01:44:07.079 --> 01:44:11.840
mind everybody tech moves fast, so you know, we've got
1546
01:44:11.960 --> 01:44:13.960
you know, but it slowed down. So now if we've
1547
01:44:14.000 --> 01:44:16.119
got ten years, we've got fifteen years of you know,
1548
01:44:17.079 --> 01:44:21.119
Facebook is twenty years, right, and we've got WhatsApp, and
1549
01:44:21.199 --> 01:44:25.239
we've got Snap, you know, and we've got Insta, you know,
1550
01:44:25.520 --> 01:44:30.720
and of course WhatsApp, you know, an Insta and Facebook
1551
01:44:30.720 --> 01:44:35.560
Arometa his Facebook was Facebook then it what install WhatsApp.
1552
01:44:36.000 --> 01:44:40.880
WhatsApp was a great you know, you know, encrypted you
1553
01:44:40.920 --> 01:44:43.520
know app that was used around the world. But you know,
1554
01:44:44.239 --> 01:44:47.039
people were paying attention, and Menta bought it and Meta said, okay,
1555
01:44:47.079 --> 01:44:50.079
look we're going to track you. We're going to take
1556
01:44:50.119 --> 01:44:52.800
every piece of data. Weekend, they changed their privacy policies.
1557
01:44:52.840 --> 01:44:55.720
I wrote about this in twenty sixteen. The first time
1558
01:44:55.760 --> 01:44:59.159
they did it, nobody was paying attention. You know. Eventually
1559
01:44:59.239 --> 01:45:03.439
the WhatsApp got billionaires that they are resigned from you know,
1560
01:45:03.560 --> 01:45:06.279
from Meta, just like the Instagram guys that they resigned
1561
01:45:06.560 --> 01:45:10.239
billionaires that they are, but they couldn't you know, tolerate
1562
01:45:10.640 --> 01:45:14.840
in their own conscience what happened to their users and
1563
01:45:14.920 --> 01:45:19.399
their users data. So, by the way, if you're if
1564
01:45:19.439 --> 01:45:23.239
you're using encrypted apps today, I highly recommend that you
1565
01:45:23.319 --> 01:45:28.159
move over the Signal you know, or Telegram, because WhatsApp
1566
01:45:28.880 --> 01:45:31.359
is as they state, you know, there, they know who
1567
01:45:31.359 --> 01:45:33.079
you're talking to, they know where you are, they know
1568
01:45:33.119 --> 01:45:35.439
when you talk to them, they know everything except the
1569
01:45:35.479 --> 01:45:37.840
conversation on the insiety.
1570
01:45:37.279 --> 01:45:42.239
Speaking, but they speaking of Telegram. Have you heard anything
1571
01:45:42.760 --> 01:45:49.039
lately about the state of the legal situation that's going
1572
01:45:49.119 --> 01:45:50.600
on with Telegram right now?
1573
01:45:52.760 --> 01:45:57.399
You know, I haven't followed that case particularly closely in France,
1574
01:45:59.760 --> 01:46:03.000
but I understand there have been some you know, first
1575
01:46:03.039 --> 01:46:06.359
it seemed quite harsh, then it seemed maybe there's some cooperation.
1576
01:46:07.359 --> 01:46:07.520
Uh.
1577
01:46:07.560 --> 01:46:10.079
You know. Basically, my my rule of thumb is go
1578
01:46:10.159 --> 01:46:13.479
to Signal. It's a nonprofit, it's got you know, a
1579
01:46:13.520 --> 01:46:17.800
great team behind it. You know, I just don't want
1580
01:46:17.800 --> 01:46:20.479
to get too immersed in purposely sort of stay away
1581
01:46:20.520 --> 01:46:24.439
from the politics of what's going on with Telegram. I
1582
01:46:24.479 --> 01:46:27.079
think Signal is that just you know, they've got their
1583
01:46:27.119 --> 01:46:29.920
nose cleaned. They're started for the right reasons. You know,
1584
01:46:29.960 --> 01:46:34.800
they carefully created their operations as a non for profit
1585
01:46:35.000 --> 01:46:39.000
so that you know they're they're they're run properly. I
1586
01:46:39.000 --> 01:46:40.840
think that's the best place to be if you're going
1587
01:46:40.920 --> 01:46:43.520
to do encrypted, you know, conversations.
1588
01:46:43.560 --> 01:46:46.920
Now, let's look at a positive side of some of this.
1589
01:46:47.439 --> 01:46:50.119
In one of your chapters, you discuss how social media
1590
01:46:50.279 --> 01:46:53.439
can be actually good for our mental health. Tell us
1591
01:46:53.439 --> 01:46:54.239
a little bit about that.
1592
01:46:56.079 --> 01:46:59.439
Listen, everybody, this is the whole point right now. I
1593
01:46:59.479 --> 01:47:02.840
love so from media. I love it. I mean, I'm
1594
01:47:02.880 --> 01:47:05.760
one of the guys who invented this thing. It's like, wow,
1595
01:47:05.840 --> 01:47:09.399
what a brilliant idea. We're spread out around the world.
1596
01:47:09.920 --> 01:47:13.079
You know, if family members can be everywhere, we can
1597
01:47:13.119 --> 01:47:16.600
work from anywhere, and we could thirty years ago too.
1598
01:47:17.720 --> 01:47:23.119
Now more than ever, so, the whole idea social media
1599
01:47:23.199 --> 01:47:28.159
is connection. Stay connected. Now, if we can stay connected
1600
01:47:28.359 --> 01:47:35.600
without being addicted to the app because we're being manipulated,
1601
01:47:36.119 --> 01:47:41.039
without having our thoughts and opinions manipulated, you know, where
1602
01:47:41.079 --> 01:47:45.560
we're just really connected to family, friends and liked by
1603
01:47:45.600 --> 01:47:49.319
the people were choosing to connect with. And if we
1604
01:47:49.560 --> 01:47:52.279
you know, check a box where we want content from
1605
01:47:52.279 --> 01:47:54.159
this source of that source of this source of that
1606
01:47:54.239 --> 01:47:56.720
source where we know, you know, we know where it's
1607
01:47:56.760 --> 01:48:00.600
coming from. So you know, it's it's it's really just
1608
01:48:00.720 --> 01:48:04.960
common sense, right then. Social media, as it was in
1609
01:48:05.000 --> 01:48:09.079
the past, Web one, it's actually really good for us,
1610
01:48:09.199 --> 01:48:11.720
really good for the world. It brings the world together,
1611
01:48:11.800 --> 01:48:15.439
makes the world a more cohesive place, and it gives
1612
01:48:15.600 --> 01:48:21.319
us connectivity with our loved ones that you know. I mean,
1613
01:48:21.479 --> 01:48:25.319
we got chat and we got email back in the nineties,
1614
01:48:25.960 --> 01:48:28.199
but this is so much better. I mean, look, we've
1615
01:48:28.199 --> 01:48:33.000
got FaceTime, right, which is incredible. We have ways to
1616
01:48:33.000 --> 01:48:37.520
stay connected and social media uses you know. I mean, look,
1617
01:48:37.560 --> 01:48:40.680
we've got these dual cameras, We've got these stories we
1618
01:48:40.720 --> 01:48:43.479
can create. I mean, we're all artists now, you know,
1619
01:48:43.640 --> 01:48:48.399
we can follow our favorite you know, creators, you know,
1620
01:48:49.239 --> 01:48:52.239
whether you know you're a Swiftie or whoever you are.
1621
01:48:52.359 --> 01:48:55.359
I mean, it's this is really a lot of fun.
1622
01:48:56.520 --> 01:49:01.520
And this is but and here's the asterisk. If you're
1623
01:49:01.520 --> 01:49:05.159
a parent, you've got to keep you know, there's a
1624
01:49:05.199 --> 01:49:09.640
lot of rules here because kids aren't healthy. You know.
1625
01:49:09.640 --> 01:49:11.960
There's a guy, Jonathan hat Let's book on my desk
1626
01:49:12.039 --> 01:49:19.960
somewhere the anxious generation kids. The data is the kids
1627
01:49:20.039 --> 01:49:23.399
are on their phones five to seven hours a day.
1628
01:49:24.119 --> 01:49:27.239
Got to get their phones out of everybody's bedroom, including ears.
1629
01:49:27.279 --> 01:49:30.039
If you're an adult, you know you got to have
1630
01:49:30.439 --> 01:49:36.359
a cutoff point. Everybody's phone is charging somewhere away from
1631
01:49:36.359 --> 01:49:39.159
the bedroom. Never have a phone in the bedroom at night.
1632
01:49:39.239 --> 01:49:42.359
It's like, you know, you go to bed, boom phones out.
1633
01:49:42.520 --> 01:49:45.119
You know you need an alarm, turn on an alarm clock.
1634
01:49:46.079 --> 01:49:47.800
Get your phone out of the room because you wake
1635
01:49:47.880 --> 01:49:49.319
up in the middle of the night, you're gonna look
1636
01:49:49.359 --> 01:49:52.439
at it. And there's so many studies that confirm that
1637
01:49:52.520 --> 01:49:55.279
if your phone is around you, it interferes with your sleep.
1638
01:49:55.680 --> 01:49:58.560
You know, we're look school kids are all asleep deprived. Now,
1639
01:49:58.600 --> 01:50:02.720
there's tons of of research on this. So it's also
1640
01:50:02.840 --> 01:50:05.439
like no phones at the dinner table. These are just basics.
1641
01:50:06.119 --> 01:50:09.479
And I'm a techie, but you know what, we sit
1642
01:50:09.520 --> 01:50:11.560
down to dinner. You sit down dinner with your family,
1643
01:50:12.239 --> 01:50:14.359
phones out. If you've got a one year old or
1644
01:50:14.399 --> 01:50:18.600
a two year old or an infant, please don't give
1645
01:50:18.600 --> 01:50:21.640
them a phone to pacify them. I know moms and
1646
01:50:21.720 --> 01:50:24.960
dads are crazy busy. You know what put up with
1647
01:50:25.000 --> 01:50:28.000
a little bit of noise and find, you know, let
1648
01:50:28.039 --> 01:50:30.960
them flip a book or let them be entertained by
1649
01:50:31.520 --> 01:50:34.800
a toy or a staffe or something. Once they learn
1650
01:50:35.560 --> 01:50:38.560
there's no phone at the table, they'll never bother you again.
1651
01:50:38.600 --> 01:50:42.159
My kids never have. It's just from the beginning. And
1652
01:50:42.279 --> 01:50:46.720
Sweden has just said no screen for any kid under two.
1653
01:50:46.920 --> 01:50:50.600
Oh wow, no screen, tulvid and screen, no phone. But
1654
01:50:50.680 --> 01:50:53.880
here's why, everybody, the screen is addictive. We know this
1655
01:50:54.039 --> 01:50:58.439
even if you're older. Look, I grew up with televisions
1656
01:50:58.479 --> 01:51:02.720
and telephones, right, so if you didn't grow up with Facebook,
1657
01:51:03.239 --> 01:51:06.520
but you still grew up with televisions and telephones, and
1658
01:51:06.640 --> 01:51:09.720
our parents had to regulate that stuff because otherwise we
1659
01:51:09.760 --> 01:51:11.119
would have been on the phone all the time, we
1660
01:51:11.159 --> 01:51:14.680
would have watched TV all the time. It's no different.
1661
01:51:15.800 --> 01:51:19.840
We got to regulate. Yes, we're busy. If you find
1662
01:51:19.880 --> 01:51:23.239
it convenient because you're so overwhelmed that you stick a
1663
01:51:23.279 --> 01:51:25.840
phone or an iPad or something in front of your kid,
1664
01:51:27.039 --> 01:51:32.279
you're actually harming the kid and yourself because you're going
1665
01:51:32.359 --> 01:51:36.479
to make your parenting harder for the next twenty five
1666
01:51:36.560 --> 01:51:38.520
years than you can even imagine. And I mean the
1667
01:51:38.520 --> 01:51:41.600
next twenty five years, because you're going to create addictions
1668
01:51:41.600 --> 01:51:43.760
for your kids that are going to create huge frustrations
1669
01:51:43.800 --> 01:51:47.520
for you and problems for them with concentration and everything else.
1670
01:51:48.079 --> 01:51:52.479
Well, you said something very important earlier that I agree with,
1671
01:51:53.039 --> 01:51:56.520
and I think that we are indeed in an era
1672
01:51:56.680 --> 01:52:00.840
of opportunity for people who are starting their own businesses,
1673
01:52:01.000 --> 01:52:06.199
who have the technological know how to be creative online
1674
01:52:06.239 --> 01:52:09.359
and make a living and do things that are not
1675
01:52:09.479 --> 01:52:13.239
only beneficial for the collective, but things that make you
1676
01:52:13.319 --> 01:52:15.840
feel good about what you're doing. And we have more
1677
01:52:15.840 --> 01:52:18.840
and more people making their own movies, starting their own
1678
01:52:18.880 --> 01:52:24.600
companies from the ground, starting their own content creation, independent
1679
01:52:24.800 --> 01:52:29.239
media outlets. So it's in a very exciting time for
1680
01:52:29.760 --> 01:52:33.239
the regular person to be able to do incredible things
1681
01:52:33.319 --> 01:52:37.640
because we have access to this technology. The unfortunate thing
1682
01:52:37.760 --> 01:52:41.680
is there's many that believe that these tech giants are
1683
01:52:41.720 --> 01:52:46.079
too big to fail and there is no way to
1684
01:52:46.239 --> 01:52:51.159
get around some of the ideologies and traps that we've
1685
01:52:51.880 --> 01:52:57.359
been introduced to. And it's many people believe that it's
1686
01:52:57.399 --> 01:53:01.319
impossible to get from under the thumb of these big
1687
01:53:01.359 --> 01:53:06.119
tech giants. But I think it's happening slowly and we're
1688
01:53:06.159 --> 01:53:09.720
seeing it unfold before our eyes. It's just not happening
1689
01:53:09.920 --> 01:53:14.560
at a pace where we could truly notice it collectively.
1690
01:53:14.600 --> 01:53:17.600
But I do think that slowly but surely, there's more
1691
01:53:17.600 --> 01:53:20.159
and more people who are starting from the bottom and
1692
01:53:20.239 --> 01:53:23.680
making the changes that will affect everything for the future.
1693
01:53:25.880 --> 01:53:29.399
You know, it's the wild West still because tech is
1694
01:53:29.439 --> 01:53:32.720
a baby. So you know the fact that we are
1695
01:53:32.880 --> 01:53:36.000
able to be looking at all these problems right now
1696
01:53:36.800 --> 01:53:39.800
just you know, thirty years into it, and really twenty
1697
01:53:39.840 --> 01:53:45.279
years since Facebook started, and you know, seventeen years since
1698
01:53:45.279 --> 01:53:49.159
Facebook became you know, a significant you know, part of
1699
01:53:49.199 --> 01:53:53.840
our world. This is it's a fascinating time. The government
1700
01:53:53.920 --> 01:53:56.880
is catching up. Remember the white here guys the government
1701
01:53:56.920 --> 01:54:00.840
twenty years ago had never used a technolo LG platform.
1702
01:54:00.920 --> 01:54:03.079
They many of them didn't even know how to use email.
1703
01:54:04.079 --> 01:54:07.680
So fast forward to today and the white haired guys
1704
01:54:07.720 --> 01:54:12.680
in government now all at least understand tech. So and
1705
01:54:12.880 --> 01:54:15.039
many of them now grew up with some kind of
1706
01:54:15.079 --> 01:54:17.800
tech because, like we said, there is email in the nineties.
1707
01:54:17.840 --> 01:54:19.720
So if they're white haired guys today, but they are
1708
01:54:19.720 --> 01:54:23.359
twenty or thirty in the nineties, then you know they're
1709
01:54:23.600 --> 01:54:27.680
they're they're here, they're with us, they're they're understanding. You know,
1710
01:54:27.680 --> 01:54:32.000
look at Tim Cook, look at some of the senior executives.
1711
01:54:32.119 --> 01:54:34.319
He's not a young guy. You know, jobs wouldn't be
1712
01:54:34.359 --> 01:54:39.119
young today, you know. So you know, we've got a
1713
01:54:39.199 --> 01:54:43.279
big opportunity for the you know, and a breeding ground
1714
01:54:43.279 --> 01:54:47.640
for the next great ones. Now, Chris, you said something
1715
01:54:47.680 --> 01:54:50.479
earlier that I don't want to step over. And you
1716
01:54:50.479 --> 01:54:55.239
know this aspect of if you become successful, then you're
1717
01:54:55.239 --> 01:54:57.239
gonna get bought out, and then you know, that's the
1718
01:54:57.279 --> 01:55:02.960
monopolies happened. Now getting bought out is okay everybody, because
1719
01:55:03.119 --> 01:55:06.720
you know, we're entrepreneurs. We live in capitalism. And if
1720
01:55:06.760 --> 01:55:13.000
you track the inevitability of a successful entity, unless you're
1721
01:55:13.039 --> 01:55:15.680
keeping it to hand it down generation generation, there comes
1722
01:55:15.760 --> 01:55:20.079
a time as your success grows and grows where you've
1723
01:55:20.119 --> 01:55:23.640
become attractive to a larger fish that once it gall
1724
01:55:23.680 --> 01:55:27.479
be you up now in and of itself, there's nothing
1725
01:55:27.479 --> 01:55:31.319
wrong with that as long as the government is watching
1726
01:55:31.840 --> 01:55:34.760
to make sure that the largest supermarket chain in the
1727
01:55:34.800 --> 01:55:37.520
country doesn't buy the second largest supermarket chain in the
1728
01:55:37.560 --> 01:55:40.840
country and create a massive monopoly where they control all
1729
01:55:40.840 --> 01:55:44.800
the prices of everything from you know production to you know,
1730
01:55:44.960 --> 01:55:49.359
sale to your table. So that's okay. You know this
1731
01:55:49.520 --> 01:55:53.479
idea of you know, acquisition of being acquired, that's a
1732
01:55:53.479 --> 01:55:55.600
good good thing to aspire to if that's your goal,
1733
01:55:55.680 --> 01:55:58.560
or to create franchise opportunities or whatever it is, to
1734
01:55:58.600 --> 01:56:03.520
create a new technology. Now also for creators. Now, one
1735
01:56:03.520 --> 01:56:06.680
of our challenges around the creator environment. Now I'm a
1736
01:56:06.720 --> 01:56:11.199
big in the book. I am going to totally empower creators.
1737
01:56:11.600 --> 01:56:14.680
This book is really about the creator economy, restoring our
1738
01:56:14.720 --> 01:56:20.920
stity online, Totally about the creator economy. So and B corps,
1739
01:56:21.680 --> 01:56:24.560
which we know are you know very you know, giving
1740
01:56:24.640 --> 01:56:30.279
back sharing with shareholders, users, everybody. Also, I'm going to
1741
01:56:30.319 --> 01:56:33.399
talk about user advisory boards. I'm going to talk about
1742
01:56:33.520 --> 01:56:36.319
you know, jury of your peers for censorship. We're going
1743
01:56:36.399 --> 01:56:38.800
to talk about things that are really actually pretty straightforward
1744
01:56:38.840 --> 01:56:44.720
to implement so that users are empowered while the executive
1745
01:56:44.760 --> 01:56:47.640
team can run the company. You know, this is really
1746
01:56:48.000 --> 01:56:53.199
conscious capitalism at work. And listen, they're great companies, Salesforce, Southwest,
1747
01:56:53.800 --> 01:56:59.239
container Store, Patagonia, They're huge companies, Whole Foods, you know,
1748
01:56:59.319 --> 01:57:03.319
all these great companies that you are either be corpse
1749
01:57:03.600 --> 01:57:07.479
or conscious capitalism corporations, and this is all about doing
1750
01:57:07.520 --> 01:57:10.439
well by doing good, and the data shows that actually,
1751
01:57:10.520 --> 01:57:12.920
the more ethical you are about how you do your business,
1752
01:57:12.960 --> 01:57:17.079
the more compassionate you know with fellow humans, the better
1753
01:57:17.119 --> 01:57:22.119
you do well doing well by doing good. Raj to Sodi,
1754
01:57:22.159 --> 01:57:26.359
the co founder of Conscious Capitalism, which has chapters around
1755
01:57:26.399 --> 01:57:29.119
the world like two hundred countries. Now you know, Raj
1756
01:57:29.199 --> 01:57:32.000
endorsed this book and he said every business executive has
1757
01:57:32.039 --> 01:57:36.000
to read this book. So there's there's a whole methodology
1758
01:57:36.039 --> 01:57:39.640
here for how we transform business on the web.
1759
01:57:40.399 --> 01:57:45.920
You mentioned how it's essentially the wild world West online
1760
01:57:46.000 --> 01:57:51.439
right now, are you optimistic that it will eventually tame
1761
01:57:51.520 --> 01:57:55.399
itself and become something more beneficial to humanity?
1762
01:57:57.359 --> 01:58:00.319
Well, I say it's the wild West. This is what
1763
01:58:00.359 --> 01:58:02.920
it's becoming. It was the wild West at the beginning
1764
01:58:02.920 --> 01:58:06.680
of Web one, which is all about serving humanity because
1765
01:58:06.680 --> 01:58:10.079
the premise of capitalism is come up with a great
1766
01:58:10.119 --> 01:58:13.079
product or service that people that loves, that serves and
1767
01:58:13.159 --> 01:58:17.000
delights people, so your customers love it and you'll be successful.
1768
01:58:17.640 --> 01:58:23.399
Then it quickly folded into monopolies. Facebook becomes successful, for example,
1769
01:58:23.760 --> 01:58:26.399
then they get funded with hundreds of millions of dollars.
1770
01:58:26.680 --> 01:58:29.640
Then nobody else can get funded because now and then
1771
01:58:29.680 --> 01:58:33.600
they acquire or squeeze out of business all their competitors.
1772
01:58:34.199 --> 01:58:37.079
You know, this is well documented, et cetera. So what
1773
01:58:37.159 --> 01:58:39.560
we want is to get back to the wild west
1774
01:58:40.520 --> 01:58:44.319
of you have a good idea and you've got good
1775
01:58:44.319 --> 01:58:47.079
business acumen, and you want to go for it. You
1776
01:58:47.119 --> 01:58:49.319
can figure out how to do it, and no one's
1777
01:58:49.359 --> 01:58:52.760
going to say to you. Now, you know Facebook, you
1778
01:58:52.760 --> 01:58:55.880
know Google, Sorry, they own that space. You're never going
1779
01:58:55.960 --> 01:58:58.920
to have any luck. So we want a bit of that,
1780
01:58:59.840 --> 01:59:04.039
and then the sanity. It's interesting, the sanity is part
1781
01:59:04.079 --> 01:59:08.560
of that sort of insanity that free market working. But
1782
01:59:08.720 --> 01:59:11.800
then the companies that do it right are going to
1783
01:59:11.800 --> 01:59:17.000
be successful. And remember that's the idea. What we need
1784
01:59:17.119 --> 01:59:20.640
is that the top line. We need the government managing
1785
01:59:21.279 --> 01:59:25.560
antitrust regulation. And it's possible, by the way, with the
1786
01:59:25.560 --> 01:59:32.039
incoming administration, we might see some movement. Listen, there are bills,
1787
01:59:32.520 --> 01:59:36.920
the American Privacy Rights Act OPERA, the Kids Online Safety
1788
01:59:36.920 --> 01:59:42.479
Act KOSA, CULPA two, Child Online Protection and Privacy Protection Act.
1789
01:59:42.600 --> 01:59:48.399
I mean, there are things in Congress with bipartisan support
1790
01:59:49.920 --> 01:59:54.000
that you know, if you look at President Trump's historical
1791
01:59:54.640 --> 02:00:00.880
perspectives that he may very well support, we may very
1792
02:00:00.880 --> 02:00:05.479
well get some, you know, the things across the finish line.
1793
02:00:05.560 --> 02:00:08.840
America is the only country in the G twenty that
1794
02:00:08.880 --> 02:00:14.199
doesn't have a privacy build privacy rights legislation for every American.
1795
02:00:14.399 --> 02:00:18.479
We're the only country that doesn't have that. It's time
1796
02:00:18.520 --> 02:00:19.479
to fix these things.
1797
02:00:19.720 --> 02:00:23.159
Mark, this was great information. Thank you so much. Before
1798
02:00:23.199 --> 02:00:26.560
we close out, remind everybody the best way that they
1799
02:00:26.600 --> 02:00:29.279
can find out more about you and pick up your book.
1800
02:00:31.439 --> 02:00:33.760
Everybody, thank you for listening. And I know you're not
1801
02:00:33.960 --> 02:00:37.039
you know the whole point of conversation. Remember, I'm not
1802
02:00:37.159 --> 02:00:40.279
expecting you to agree or disagree with everything that we
1803
02:00:40.319 --> 02:00:43.079
talked about today. I want us to be talking about it.
1804
02:00:43.439 --> 02:00:45.960
I want us to be empowered. I want you to
1805
02:00:46.039 --> 02:00:50.800
feel powerful again about your choices on social media, about
1806
02:00:50.840 --> 02:00:54.520
your control. That's what it's all about. The book, Restoring
1807
02:00:54.560 --> 02:00:59.159
Our Saturday Online, a revolutionary social framework, is available wherever
1808
02:00:59.279 --> 02:01:04.159
books are sold Amazon, Barnes and Noble independent bookstores. You
1809
02:01:04.239 --> 02:01:06.520
name it, Welcome into a bookstore, and if you can't
1810
02:01:06.520 --> 02:01:08.760
find it, just you know, order it, and if you
1811
02:01:08.800 --> 02:01:10.880
really love it, please get a second one and give
1812
02:01:10.880 --> 02:01:14.479
it to somebody, a library, a school, a friend. We've
1813
02:01:14.520 --> 02:01:17.199
got to get everybody back on the same page going,
1814
02:01:17.279 --> 02:01:20.439
oh wow, I can do this. Also in the book
1815
02:01:20.880 --> 02:01:23.960
their action plans in almost every chapter what you can
1816
02:01:24.000 --> 02:01:27.600
do right now, spotting about control, you know, not being fished,
1817
02:01:27.840 --> 02:01:30.760
taking care of your kids, working together, getting all this done.
1818
02:01:30.960 --> 02:01:33.520
It's all there, what we what we can do right now,
1819
02:01:33.880 --> 02:01:37.039
And there's some appendices on you know how we fix
1820
02:01:37.199 --> 02:01:40.760
a lot of things. You can reach me Mark m
1821
02:01:40.760 --> 02:01:45.600
A r k at restore theweb dot com market restore
1822
02:01:45.640 --> 02:01:50.239
theweb dot com. You can go to my website, Mark Weinstein,
1823
02:01:50.560 --> 02:01:54.720
Inventor dot com. It's m A r K W e
1824
02:01:54.960 --> 02:01:59.319
I N S T e I N Inventor dot com.
1825
02:02:00.279 --> 02:02:03.279
And you know again where we can do this. We're
1826
02:02:03.319 --> 02:02:08.159
doing it. It's at a very exciting time and we're
1827
02:02:08.159 --> 02:02:09.800
going to get this done. So I want everybody to
1828
02:02:09.840 --> 02:02:13.520
feel like, Okay, we've now seen how bad it can get.
1829
02:02:14.239 --> 02:02:17.760
Now let's get it back. Our mental health, kids, mental health,
1830
02:02:17.800 --> 02:02:23.119
civil discourse, critical thinking, democracy, This is all right in
1831
02:02:23.159 --> 02:02:27.560
our hands to make it work better for all of
1832
02:02:27.640 --> 02:02:33.039
us and for future generations. Take our privacy back, control
1833
02:02:33.119 --> 02:02:35.680
our data. And if you think it's too late for
1834
02:02:35.720 --> 02:02:37.680
your privacy, don't worry. It's too late for mine too,
1835
02:02:38.159 --> 02:02:42.319
but it's not too late for our kids and their kids.
1836
02:02:42.399 --> 02:02:45.479
It's not too late to start right now. We take
1837
02:02:45.520 --> 02:02:49.119
our data back control of our data using Tim's pods
1838
02:02:49.199 --> 02:02:52.600
or something similar. We've got privacy again.
1839
02:02:53.279 --> 02:02:56.920
Mark, great information, Thank you again. Definitely love to talk
1840
02:02:57.000 --> 02:03:00.199
more in the future. I'll have all your links easily
1841
02:03:00.239 --> 02:03:04.880
accessible for everyone writing the description. And until next time, everyone,
1842
02:03:04.960 --> 02:03:09.079
have a wonderful evening. We will talk again tomorrow. If
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