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00:00:10.309Welcome to the latest episode of EdInfluence.
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00:00:15.830I'm Nick MacKenzie from Browne Jacobson, and today I'm delighted to be joined by my colleague Iain Blatherwick.
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00:00:16.549Hi Iain.
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00:00:17.829Hi Nick.
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00:00:19.109Good to be here.
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00:00:34.950So, as regular listeners will know, this is our end of series retrospective, a chance for us to step back and reflect on the conversations I've had over the course of series five and pull out some themes and moments that stayed with us.
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00:00:49.429So it's a slightly different format from our usual episodes, but it's always one of my favourite to record because there's something interesting about looking at eight conversations laid end to end and asking what does this actually add up to?
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00:00:51.669What's the series really about?
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00:01:06.629So Ian and I have reviewed a selection of the episodes ahead of today, and what we've done before and we'll do again is the idea we'll come with a theme, something that generally struck us, and then we'll see what happens when we put all those themes together in the room.
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00:01:14.630Before I hand over to you, Ian, I want to put a thread on the table, something that I think runs through the whole of series five.
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00:01:21.590And the through line I want to suggest is no one is coming, lead from where you are.
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00:01:28.710For me, series five kept returning from completely different directions to the same quiet reckoning.
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00:01:32.870The conditions you're waiting for aren't coming, the cavalry isn't on the way.
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00:01:37.829And the moment that you accept that this is the moment real leadership begins.
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00:01:47.190And I think Lucy Easthope, she named it probably most directly, she had what I thought three quite activating words for emergency planners.
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00:01:48.950Help isn't coming.
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00:01:54.710And Steve West picked it up immediately and applied it to the entire university sector right now.
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00:02:00.070But the same truth was running underneath almost every other conversation, even when the words were different.
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00:02:08.229So I think um Andrew Warren talked about the courage to make decisions that will stand the test of time, knowing the conditions will never be perfect.
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00:02:15.349Paul Estes talked about putting your own oxygen mask on rather than waiting for someone else to hand it to you.
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00:02:25.669Andy Long talked about leading university through uncertainty by not having answers, by trusting people around you enough to find the answers together.
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00:02:33.750Edward Fatalis talked about stop being British, so stop waiting for permission to believe your work is good enough.
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00:02:37.909Charlotte Blunt, she put her own register on it.
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00:02:44.469She talked about you've got to be courageous in leadership and trust people to be brilliant, not wait for them to be.
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00:02:46.549So trust them in advance.
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00:02:52.870And Janet Smith arrived at it from the most personal direction from anybody in the series.
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00:03:03.590She lost her mother at 12 unexpectedly overnight, and what she drew from it wasn't trauma but a kind of bedrock that nothing can ever be as bad again.
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00:03:15.109That doesn't feel like a leadership framework, it's something lived all the way through to certainty, and it produces exactly the same quality the through line describes.
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00:03:19.989I think the ability to act without waiting for conditions that will never be perfect.
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00:03:23.989No, I don't think that through line's pessimism, I think it's actually the opposite.
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00:03:26.629But what do you think, Ian?
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00:03:38.310Well, that I I was about to say that bit about pessimism because I I the scenarios painted there suggests that you're in stormy waters and you've got to plan your route out of it.
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00:03:48.229But I think Edward did also say talking about the sector, don't wait to be told by you know the powers that be, what's going to happen about the curriculum or or whatever.
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00:03:49.750Don't sit back and wait.
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00:03:59.509So I think I think there is a lesson here as well that even when things are good, make sure you're using that time to push on and do better.
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00:04:14.870And actually, being honest, I'm not always the best making the most of those things, that those times when they're on an even keel, and then before you know it, something else has gone awry, and you're sat there wishing, cracky, I wish I'd made more use of that time there to change these things or to push these things on.
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00:04:15.590So I agree.
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00:04:19.189I don't think it is just always about the toughest times you find yourself in.
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00:04:22.870Wherever you find yourself, so I guess that is lead from where you are.
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00:04:33.029Wherever you find yourself, make sure you're still trying to push forward and make the most of the circumstances, whether you've got a wind in your favour or wind against you.
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00:04:34.789Keep pushing forward.
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00:04:41.589So yeah, I it was interesting the different circumstances that led to those comments.
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00:04:53.029But but yeah, leadership is taking advantage of the supporting winds or working your way through those headwinds and and making sure that you've you've got the right people around you and making the most of it.
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00:04:57.829Do you think there's something in there that they were perhaps touching on about?
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00:05:08.149There's a kind of clarity that you only get a vote once you you stop waiting, whether it's for help or whether it's for something else.
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00:05:12.870But there's a clarity that perhaps comes when you're you're in the moment.
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00:05:18.870You know, a long time ago, well, we actually we're both this is like confession, Nick, a long time ago.
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00:05:20.069We were both corporate lawyers.
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00:05:22.550Maybe we didn't want our listeners to know that.
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00:05:32.069But I think there is a bit of me that the adrenaline of a the adrenaline of a deadline or a completion meeting or something definitely helps me work at a better level.
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00:05:35.430And maybe that's one of these challenges in leading from where you are.
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00:05:47.110Maybe when there is that element of crisis, the adrenaline kicks in and so on, that you do raise your game, which is maybe why I'm not so good at dealing when things are a little bit calmer, that you know, maybe it doesn't push you on.
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00:05:58.789I think I feel similarly when I'm doing my coaching, that the coaching I do best is when I'm coaching someone who I don't know their world, I don't know their environment.
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00:06:01.110It's making me work that bit harder.
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00:06:07.509And again, you're you're uh you're introducing an element of you're out of your comfort zone, you're having to work harder, you have to think harder.
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00:06:18.629So it's interesting the different the different things that drive you and push you, and maybe being aware of those to make sure that you do make the most of those opportunities and and lead from where you are.
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00:06:28.550Was there was our through line for you, or was there anything else that you think kept on cropping up for you in?
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00:06:38.310And there was a bit around self-care, which came through as a thread for me.
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00:06:51.670And I think it's easy to overlook as a leader that you you need to look out for yourself as well, because otherwise, where are you going to get the the drive, the energy to lead things forward as well?
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00:06:55.269Edward talked about mind, body, and soul.
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00:07:02.469Lucy talked about putting yourself first, and then this developed into a conversation about how do you actually do that.
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00:07:04.629There were a few references to people being addicted to their phones.
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00:07:14.949I think Lucy talked about one of the biggest changes in education conferences she's been to over the last few years is that you walk into your room and everyone has sat there glued to their phones.
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00:07:18.149You know, where do you get your your downtime with that?
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00:07:20.789Paul also talked about putting down your phone.
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00:07:34.469But there were there were with Edward, Lucy, and Paul, Edward talked about, and this was based on guidance that he'd been given, that sometimes he just goes into his office, tidies his desk, sit down, and look at the wall.
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00:07:37.189And that's where you have your thinking time.
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00:07:42.389Lucy talks about living in the gaps, and I know this is something we have explored previously, haven't we?
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00:07:47.670I think going back to an earlier series, you know, I think it was Edward Peck who said doing nothing is doing something.
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00:07:51.269And you and I have always been intrigued by those gaps, haven't we?
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00:07:53.430And what you do in those silences.
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00:08:02.149Paul talked about time with no purpose, which is a bit of a contradiction in terms, because I think it does have a purpose because it is enabling you to step back from things.
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00:08:11.110But I think there is that pressure on a leader to be seen to be doing something to feel like you have things under control, to feel like you have all of the answers.
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00:08:25.110But actually, you have to buy yourself time in here to conserve or you know, revitalize energy to make sure you do have time to think and to make sure that you are then ready to go and to go again when you need to.
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00:08:35.670So that it was interesting that you you go straight from leading, but part of leading is making sure you're going to be in the right place yourself to lead people through those those moments.
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00:08:49.350So, you know, I don't think there's enough focus on looking after yourself as the leader because your natural instinct is to be there and supporting and leading and taking others through whatever gets what whatever gets thrown your way.
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00:09:01.669So taking that that theme of looking after yourself, you you obviously led Browne Jacobson for many years, Ian, and carried on leaning in it in different ways.
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00:09:04.789What have you learned about looking after your yourself?
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00:09:18.710A key part of it is the people that you surround yourself with, the people who give you energy, the people who will be there for you, the people you absolutely want aside you and those those challenged.
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00:09:22.549But you know, I think I think energy is a massive part of this.
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00:09:30.230And uh going back to that idea of deadlines and adrenaline and so on, leadership doesn't often have all of those moments.
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00:09:45.669There's often there's a lot, a long list of stuff to be got through, and therefore you have to plan those bits which are maybe don't play to your natural strengths, and how do you make sure that you work your way through those and don't just gravitate towards the things that that you know you'd rather be doing.
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00:09:53.269So there's that there's that stepping, it does give you a time to reflect on what it is that you enjoy doing, what your strengths are, where you do focus your time.
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00:09:57.750But uh for me, it comes back to the people that you surround yourself with.
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00:10:00.149And I guess that's partly in work and out of work as well.
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00:10:01.269How do you get your break?
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00:10:03.429I was always quite good at switching off.
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00:10:09.509Music is a massive part to me, and it was interesting in in Lucy's discussion as well.
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00:10:13.509You know, any it probably drives the rest of my family mad.
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00:10:15.909But any moment I can, I will have music in my house.
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00:10:27.909I haven't called them planthums before, but I I always have some music, music playing, and that absolutely takes me away from anything that might be top of my mind and helps put things into perspective.
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00:10:41.110For different people, it will be exercise, it will be walks, it will be nature, it will be any any of those kind of things, but you do need to it just helps give give you a bit of perspective, doesn't it, on what what needs to be done.
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00:10:43.590Give yourself time away from things.
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00:10:50.309So and interestingly, and I think these were alluded to as well, we uh and a bit of a diversion.
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00:10:56.149I I went to a book launch by Matt Haig about his his latest book called The Midnight Train.
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00:11:10.549And in this book, without any plot spoilers, a man goes back through his life and and he realizes that actually the main moments in his life were not necessarily the big achievements or the you know the mountains that were climbed.
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00:11:15.750There were quiet moments where maybe he was sat on a park bench and Lucy talks about those simple pleasures.
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00:11:19.990And I think there's a bit of us where we all need to work out it isn't all around the next mountain that we've climbed.
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00:11:28.309There are moments where you just feel good about where you are and what you're doing that we maybe don't take enough time to notice.
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00:11:39.029And with all of the demands, with all of the challenges, with everything that's being choked at you at the phone, I think that I think the um taking chance to enjoy those simple pleasures.
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00:11:50.309I can't remember who it was, and it might have been Edward just talked about those those weekend moments where you do just sit down and you're just watching a TV series and actually realizing actually this is this is enjoyable.
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00:11:59.029So clearly we all take a pride in our achievements, clearly we all take pride in in getting ourselves out of big challenges, but we need we need to enjoy those simple moments too.
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00:12:04.950It's interesting music appealing to you.
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00:12:20.789I I I quite enjoy my music, but this music, for example, is used quite a lot in the movies to play with your emotions, and there's something quite human, I think the music can really tap into emotions in a way other things don't necessarily do.
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00:12:32.950Do you think there's partly a a release sometimes that in the in the world in where we have to be quite logical, you're rational, you think things throughs, and finding the space for the emotional and the gut.
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00:12:41.269Is there something in it that it's freeing up space to have that emotional reaction and lean into emotions a bit when you're listening to music?
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00:12:45.269Yes, so definitely, and it's different emotions, isn't it?
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00:12:52.389Because sometimes I'll put music on and it's completely even if it's a bit of music that I love, it's the wrong moment, the wrong music for that moment.
00:12:52.389 -->
00:12:58.230And I listen to as much new music as old music.
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00:13:08.549The old music can trigger those nostalgia moments and you remember where you were and all of those things, but I love the challenge of new you know, discovering new things too.
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00:13:19.110I I I think I I'm probably leaping forward slightly here though, because I I think I think emotions in work is interesting.
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00:13:30.710Lucy talked about, and this is a sort of governance point, that have we lost the ability to debate?
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00:13:35.669Have we are there too many moments where conversations are taken personally?
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00:13:40.470She talks about you know accusations of why you're always so negative.
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00:13:55.590Quite a lot of the people I coach are in an audit or a risk or a legal role, and then they will get that accusation of being too negative and or everything being taken personally, which is where I'm I'm linking it to the the point around emotions.
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00:13:59.830But that that for me is a risk at a at a governance level.
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00:14:10.389If we can't if converse too much in society at the moment, conversations are about scoring points rather than actually having a genuine, serious discussion and potentially changing someone's mind.
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00:14:17.029And if that comes into the workplace in a leadership team, then there is not an open and on this discussion.
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00:14:31.590And I think as a as a leader, you need to be right there at the forefront of being able to take feedback, of being able to take criticism as well, just so that you can ensure that within your leadership team things don't get emotional too quickly.
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00:14:38.149You do realize you are all on the same side and that challenges, respectful challenge, is healthy.
00:14:38.149 -->
00:14:57.269So I think that whole piece, I know I've leapt a little bit from music and emotions to emotion in the workplace, but I think we find ourselves at an interesting time there where that fear of upsetting people for people taking things too personally too quickly can get in the way of good decision making.
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00:15:00.870I think it's a really interesting observation, Ian.
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00:15:05.830Taking that a bit further, perhaps, at the risk of going very far from where we were.
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00:15:10.629I think one of the things you can see sometimes is it stops.
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00:15:23.909I think you said you that you can't have a good debate and discussion, but it means things get left unsaid because someone cuts in because they they think, oh, I see where Ian's going with this, I'm gonna head him off at the pass and I'll get in now.
00:15:23.909 -->
00:15:27.669And they may have been right, but there's every chance they were wrong actually.
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00:15:43.990And if they'd let you speak and develop the point, you could have been trying to go somewhere else, but we'll never know that because they've answered what they thought the point was because of almost this feeling of point scoring and wanting to make sure that you defend your position.
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00:15:49.110So I think it can spread quite wide that that sort of challenge.
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00:15:52.870Well, and there's a bit, I don't know whether you're about to excuse me of this.
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00:15:57.669Sometimes my thinking develops as I am speaking.
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00:16:04.710I don't want to get straight into the introvert-extrovert kind of discussion, but that's definitely a factor.
00:16:04.710 -->
00:16:17.189So therefore, if someone does cut you off early as your own thinking is developed, you might not you might not have reached your own conclusion and then you you might just sort of get derailed at that point and have to leave things where they are.
00:16:17.189 -->
00:16:24.470So there's yeah, there's a bit around the governance of the meeting and making sure people feel able to speak as well, isn't there?
00:16:24.470 -->
00:16:53.990That that is yeah, something that becomes ever more important at a leadership level, whether that's the chair or the chief exec, who needs to make sure that, you know, if if people are sat around a table, that should be because you they're there by right, their contribution should be valued, and you need to make sure they get given the opportunity to to do that, and it should be a safe space for challenge, for honesty, and for making sure people think that are able to debate what is on their mind.
00:16:54.789 -->
00:16:57.750Can I go back to something you said a few minutes ago?
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00:17:07.029You I think you were talking about from say the corporate world and the cut and thrust of a deal in the the deadline to make the decisions.
00:17:07.029 -->
00:17:16.390But then you also said around then about some of your best coaching is when you're not familiar with the client's context.
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00:17:30.629I'm just linking that to something I know you mentioned before about curiosity when you're in an uncertain terrain, and therefore you you actually probably need to have your wits about you a bit more and you are being curious and and lean in.
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00:17:31.990Does that resonate?
00:17:32.629 -->
00:17:40.950Yeah, and that chimes in with something that Edward was was talking about on this.
00:17:40.950 -->
00:17:46.869There's a challenge in leadership, isn't there, with with that?
00:17:46.869 -->
00:17:48.230Do you need to know all the answers?
00:17:48.230 -->
00:17:50.150Do you need to be completely under control?
00:17:50.150 -->
00:18:01.750He talks about some of the collaboration that they do, where absolutely open book about this is where we are, this is where we find ourselves, uh absolute honesty about as an organization.
00:18:01.750 -->
00:18:13.589And sometimes as a as a leader, you don't necessarily want to share what's and all where you are as an organization, or leap into the unknown as to who you might be discussing those with us, to to to to where they go to.
00:18:13.589 -->
00:18:18.470So I think there's there's a piece there that is interesting.
00:18:18.470 -->
00:18:31.589Paul also talks about curiosity, and he has a brilliant phrase where you know, as he goes to bed, he's interested in a thing he doesn't know that he will learn about tomorrow.
00:18:31.589 -->
00:18:40.629And I think in a world I was, you know, a a friend asked me if I could have a conversation with their daughter about a career in law.
00:18:40.629 -->
00:18:47.990And I've never felt less certain what a career, you know, a future career in law looks like.
00:18:47.990 -->
00:19:03.349But for people who are curious about how things work, for people who want to carry on learning, for me, these are the skills that will see people forward into whatever the future world of work looks like.
00:19:03.349 -->
00:19:09.589And people have to embrace that step into the unknown and see where things take them.
00:19:09.589 -->
00:19:18.869And that can be a challenge as a leader because you feel this responsibility for the organization that you're in and you know, where the world is heading.
00:19:18.869 -->
00:19:27.349But I think it's something that that needs to be embraced and see where things get see where things get taken to, you know.
00:19:27.349 -->
00:19:39.349I think again it might have been Edward who talked about, you know, innovation and trying things and and maybe you aim for the top right hand corner of the goal 20 times and 19 times you miss.
00:19:39.349 -->
00:19:54.869But if you score that one goal and you make that that thing change, then as an organization, that is what the future is going to be like, you know, that's not around feel of failure, but if you can make that one thing land, then you know that's where we need where we need to head.
00:19:55.910 -->
00:20:02.150So I I'll put a different theme on on the table of something that that struck me.
00:20:02.150 -->
00:20:12.390And in the I think it probably was more in the second half of the series, I found myself kept coming back and asking guests about the moment things turned.
00:20:12.390 -->
00:20:22.950Perhaps you would expect to hear talk of strategies, data, decisions made under pressure, but I think what I actually heard was talk about rooms.
00:20:22.950 -->
00:20:31.109Bear with me a moment, but they were they were talking about specific moments in specific rooms when something shifted.
00:20:31.109 -->
00:20:35.430They they just knew it before they could actually explain it.
00:20:35.430 -->
00:20:55.670So Steve described it in the sense that he told his staff that he'd been crying in the garden during COVID, unable to fix what was broken, and his son came up to him and put his arm around him, and he told him nobody could, and that that was just a real moment for Steve.
00:20:55.670 -->
00:21:04.470And that impacted him that he he decided to tell his leadership team and because he thought you know they deserved the honesty.
00:21:04.470 -->
00:21:14.470And you you might think that perhaps what might come back wasn't was sympathy, but it wasn't, it was recognition that everybody in the room was carrying the same thing.
00:21:14.470 -->
00:21:32.470But him telling that story surfaced it as a collective understanding that was perhaps there under the surface, but now was oak that was out there, and and Janet Smith, I think she gave really three three good examples, I think.
00:21:32.470 -->
00:21:38.309And what was I think really interesting is she was she was able to recall the details really, really clearly.
00:21:38.309 -->
00:21:43.509And I think there's something in the fact that someone can tell a story from knowing when it turns really clearly.
00:21:43.509 -->
00:21:47.109That that I think in itself is fascinating and telling.
00:21:47.109 -->
00:21:59.750So she referenced a moment, uh turnaround college in Manchester, where at the end of a long day, a a group of managers laughed at something absurd on screen.
00:21:59.750 -->
00:22:05.109And she just felt in that moment it was a shift from they to we.
00:22:05.109 -->
00:22:07.269It sort of it it felt.
00:22:07.269 -->
00:22:09.589No, there's a there's an us here.
00:22:09.589 -->
00:22:26.390And she also talked about a moment, I think in a a current college, about an offstead grade, and the college had had had struggled for a number of years, and she sent out the message and then she just heard these cheers from from the corridor.
00:22:26.390 -->
00:22:31.509And so she couldn't see them, wasn't the same space, but she found that quite impactful.
00:22:31.509 -->
00:22:41.029She also talked as well, I think about I don't think it was long after that actually, the same college about so I think it was reaffirming it.
00:22:41.029 -->
00:22:47.269She was watching Staff Cry when they announced a £250 bonus, a Christmas gathering.
00:22:47.269 -->
00:22:59.029I don't know they ever really had gatherings before when they're and it wasn't because of the money, it was because and she said somebody said it to her directly, nobody's ever done something like that for us before.
00:22:59.029 -->
00:23:04.230And it was that that moment of being seen.
00:23:04.230 -->
00:23:19.430And I think yeah, I found those interesting because they're sort of they feel like moments of catching that intangible of when a team stops being a collection of people working together in a building and something actually feels that they belong to, it's uh us.
00:23:20.150 -->
00:23:25.910And it it's interesting, those are gonna be sound a a bit contrary here.
00:23:25.910 -->
00:23:32.390Those moments aren't always in it's easier in those moments which are a bit celebratory.
00:23:32.390 -->
00:23:57.029But actually, sometimes coming back to some of the darker moments, when you realize that everyone is alongside you, trying to pull yourself out of whatever hole you have found yourself in, there are moments there which are massively, I was about to say reassuring, it's probably the wrong word, but where you realize, yeah, we really are a collective here.
00:23:57.029 -->
00:23:59.910Sometimes as a leader, you can feel quite exposed in those positions.
00:23:59.910 -->
00:24:04.309Crikey, how have I let us find ourselves in this position?
00:24:04.309 -->
00:24:11.509And that moment when you Yeah, I think I think it you you learn a lot about organizations in a time of crisis.
00:24:11.509 -->
00:24:32.309And when you're in a time of crisis and you realize that absolutely everyone is alongside you trying to pull out of it, I think are those moments too, because you realize you've you've created that sense of belonging and it's easy to belong in the successful years, but when people are belonging in the tougher times, that means something.
00:24:33.750 -->
00:24:35.269It's interesting.
00:24:35.269 -->
00:24:40.309Steve also talked about that meeting culture.
00:24:40.309 -->
00:24:48.869Now, this isn't, I don't think, just related to tough decisions, but and he actually they actually have a a name for it, a form of word, so not unique.
00:24:48.869 -->
00:24:59.829But they they talked about pause to go faster, and he talked about anybody can call it, and that when you're just there as a group trying to work through something and just someone can hang on a minute, let's just pause to go faster here.
00:24:59.829 -->
00:25:01.109What are we flying past?
00:25:01.109 -->
00:25:07.190And that that felt to me something quite important to being a genuine team.
00:25:07.190 -->
00:25:23.269Because going back to what you're saying about governance, sometimes meetings can feel quite performative or people are playing a role, the word the script isn't perfectly written, but the general role is outlined, and you you add lib and then you get there, but things are left unsaid, and you can't do that.
00:25:23.269 -->
00:25:28.629So that I found that really fascinating that they almost had had a name for it.
00:25:28.629 -->
00:25:38.549And as I said, there's not a unique form of words, but if that's culturally like anyone has permission in a group to go, hang on a minute, let's just pause so we can go faster.
00:25:38.549 -->
00:25:40.470I thought was fascinating.
00:25:40.950 -->
00:25:43.670No, and I confession again.
00:25:43.670 -->
00:25:47.109I could remember meetings I was just glad to get through.
00:25:47.109 -->
00:25:50.470And the purpose of them was getting through the end or getting to the end.
00:25:50.470 -->
00:25:53.349Was that really the best use of everybody's time?
00:25:53.349 -->
00:25:56.309You know, was that a meeting that really needed to happen?
00:25:56.309 -->
00:26:05.269And we've probably all had those moments, but it is interesting to reflect afterwards have you done service, have you done justice to everyone who was there together at that point?
00:26:05.269 -->
00:26:09.829And have you really worked out what that time was best used for?
00:26:09.829 -->
00:26:31.670So it is, yeah, I think meetings are are I don't uh I think it might have been Paul who talked about, you know, trying to reduce meetings, and then one of his team members commented, but that's the only time I managed to catch up with this particular colleague, which sort of made him stop and think and he found other ways to.
00:26:31.670 -->
00:26:38.150I think he bought them all, sorted them all canteen vouchers so they could all go to the canteen, but they had to be paired up with someone else.
00:26:38.150 -->
00:26:46.950Um which is right, it wasn't the meeting, wasn't the solution to people meeting up, but it was interesting what different I think there are different perceptions of what meetings are for.
00:26:46.950 -->
00:26:53.269And I think as a leader you can get fixed into, and as I say, being being honest occasions where there were meetings that are just needed to be got through.
00:26:53.269 -->
00:26:56.309But actually, what was the purpose of that meeting for everyone else in there?
00:26:56.309 -->
00:27:06.710And there might have been there are probably different reasons for those people being in there, and have you stepped back enough and worked out what you want to achieve with a meeting rather than just something that needs to be ticked off?
00:27:06.710 -->
00:27:08.230Yeah.
00:27:08.549 -->
00:27:10.950Going back to the theme of curiosity for a moment.
00:27:10.950 -->
00:27:23.509I I I want to different degrees, there'll be lots of talking, leadership and management discourse about building culture, about engagement, about trust, psychological safety.
00:27:23.509 -->
00:27:26.309These are all things I think we can recognise.
00:27:26.309 -->
00:27:35.670I do wonder whether we talk enough about that specific moment that that that moment you feel the organization become us.
00:27:35.670 -->
00:27:39.750Because I I wonder if you felt it, do you know what created it?
00:27:39.750 -->
00:27:43.910And you possibly will never know the answer to it, but I think it's an interesting question to ask.
00:27:43.910 -->
00:27:46.950Because I think sometimes you might be, oh, that's great, we've got that.
00:27:46.950 -->
00:27:52.069I do wonder whether it would be interesting to try and capture and go, ooh, what created that?
00:27:52.069 -->
00:28:01.430And I said it may be one of those questions you can never answer, but I think trying to answer a question like that it in and of itself could be quite revealing and fascinating.
00:28:01.910 -->
00:28:06.150Yeah, and it it probably evolves over time, doesn't it?
00:28:06.150 -->
00:28:12.789I um it's probably different as a new leader as to someone who's been in position for a while.
00:28:12.789 -->
00:28:29.190You you you talked to Edward around the challenge of from an accountancy background coming and leading an education organization and what you know, did it feel like an outsider?
00:28:29.190 -->
00:28:30.629What were the challenges within that?
00:28:30.629 -->
00:28:43.910Which made me which made me stop and think around some of those challenges, because I guess your relationship with the people around you has to evolve over you know that initial skepticism that there might be.
00:28:43.910 -->
00:28:53.109What was interesting was then listening to Lucy straight after that, because you know, Lucy's background in risk and disaster and so on.
00:28:53.109 -->
00:29:10.950I realized I'd already got a preconceived idea of what Lucy was going to be like, and then she bounds in like a ray of light and energy and so on, and and that made me stop and think hard about you know how quickly I was leading to a preconceived view of how someone is, and something you and I have talked about in coaching before.
00:29:10.950 -->
00:29:27.430You know, when I coach someone, I like to not know much about them or their organization before I have the first meeting because that way they are a bit more of a blank canvas to me, and and I hopefully get a more honest view of what they're like before their 360 reports get rolled out to me or any of their assessments get rolled out to me.
00:29:27.430 -->
00:29:38.390But it did make me, you know, as a as a leader, you might have your own view of how you've perceived, but it it how do you actually work out how everyone else is perceiving you and how they want you to behave in any particular moment?
00:29:38.390 -->
00:29:45.910And and as leaders, you I guess you get you get more adept at adept at adapting to particular circumstances, but it can be a challenge, can't it?
00:29:45.910 -->
00:29:51.029Trying to second guess what people expect of you and how that evolves over time.
00:29:51.990 -->
00:29:52.869Indeed.
00:29:52.869 -->
00:30:05.269I suppose you can have so many different audiences as well, where at that moment you could have quite a lot almost being asked of you in a leader for different people needing different things.
00:30:05.269 -->
00:30:11.910There's always a danger in episode like this where you're doing a retrospective of lots of agreement.
00:30:11.910 -->
00:30:18.390Although I think we've I don't think we've had tension, but we have got we've got under the skin of a few things where there might have been difference.
00:30:18.390 -->
00:30:35.430But I did want to I was reflecting back on the series and going, where where perhaps were there some areas of tension between some of what was said, and you know, I think I mentioned it with my episode with Lucy.
00:30:35.430 -->
00:30:44.950I talked to Lucy about paradoxes, and actually sometimes sitting with something uncomfortable where something you think is a paradox actually isn't a paradox, it's just you haven't looked at it hard enough.
00:30:44.950 -->
00:30:48.309But when you look at it hard enough, you can resolve your paradox.
00:30:48.309 -->
00:30:50.789So it may be that we can resolve the tension I'm about to.
00:30:51.190 -->
00:30:54.470I think she said to you two things can be right at the same time, can't they?
00:30:54.470 -->
00:30:56.390Sometimes it feels like they are.
00:30:56.390 -->
00:30:57.829How can they both be the case?
00:30:57.829 -->
00:31:01.829But you know, it's that stepping back and working out actually that both of those things can be true.
00:31:02.069 -->
00:31:03.829She absolutely did, yeah.
00:31:03.829 -->
00:31:32.069So Steve West he opened with one of the most vulnerable moments in the series where he talked about crying in the garden and able to fix what was broken, and his his son's arm around him, and he he said it explicitly that leadership has uh has to find a way of connecting and being emotionally intelligent and not being afraid to show vulnerability, and that story he then told to his staff becoming the thing that connected everyone that I just mentioned a moment ago.
00:31:32.069 -->
00:31:38.150But Andy Long noticed something else that pulls against it.
00:31:38.150 -->
00:31:47.269He described himself as being the calmest person in the room throughout COVID, and and he reflected that sometimes people actually need you to show some emotion back.
00:31:47.269 -->
00:31:55.990So that was his natural approach was calmness, and so you know, which is absolutely a genuine strength, but also could be a distance.
00:31:55.990 -->
00:32:06.150So he was noticing, talked, I think, about learning to perform emotion he was actually feeling just to give others permission to feel it too.
00:32:06.549 -->
00:32:09.109But that that feels like a contradiction though, doesn't it?
00:32:09.109 -->
00:32:14.710Because my natural instinct is in a scenario like that, wouldn't you want your leader to be calm?
00:32:14.710 -->
00:32:19.750So again, it does lead to a bit of a tension as to how how should he behave.
00:32:19.750 -->
00:32:29.829A, you'd want to be authentic, and if he is genuinely calm, you know, that don't worry, we've got this kind of approach, you would hope would be reassuring to people.
00:32:29.829 -->
00:32:37.190So yeah, it's it's an interesting one as to how how we should have behaved in that scenario.
00:32:37.509 -->
00:32:48.150But I think that the one way of describing intention is there's a vulnerability that is real and shown can really galvanize and it can cross the rubicon.
00:32:48.150 -->
00:32:56.069But leaders also carry a responsibility not to transfer their own uncertainty onto people who might need steadiness.
00:32:56.069 -->
00:33:00.549And yeah, I suppose the trick is how do you judge what the moment calls for?
00:33:00.710 -->
00:33:03.349Which moment you've got to be authentic as well, isn't it?
00:33:03.349 -->
00:33:15.190You can you I mean it if it if he presents as being calm, but actually there is levels of uncertainty underneath that he just allows to come out, then that's fine.
00:33:15.190 -->
00:33:21.589Doing something a bit more performative isn't gonna convince anyone, I wouldn't have thought in those moments, is it?
00:33:21.589 -->
00:33:26.150So there's a real yeah, there's a there's a balance to be struck there that feels quite a challenge.
00:33:26.710 -->
00:33:27.349Yeah.
00:33:27.349 -->
00:33:36.470The we have come a few times in this conversation to crises and sort of moments of tension.
00:33:36.470 -->
00:33:42.710I think it was Lucy talked about preparing.
00:33:42.710 -->
00:33:58.390I'm trying to remember the form of words she used about the the fact that crisis will happen, but what you need to do is you need to reduce sort of have the muscle recognition to to get there so that it's not got quite as much stigma and that you're not having an immediate moment of panic.
00:33:58.710 -->
00:33:59.190Yeah.
00:33:59.190 -->
00:34:02.710And then she also talked about bad health, didn't she?
00:34:02.710 -->
00:34:15.269At that point, you know, often it isn't the moment of obviously often it isn't the crisis that turns out to be the longer term problem, but how you respond to that crisis.
00:34:15.269 -->
00:34:25.350And I absolutely recognise that because the mistakes happen is how you respond to those mistakes.
00:34:25.350 -->
00:34:41.910And in a regulated environment like we were in, you need people to have that assurance that if a make mistake does happen, the organization will be alongside them to sort it out.
00:34:41.910 -->
00:34:54.150Because otherwise, if if if someone make does something wrong and they think the organization is gonna come down on them like a ton of bricks, they will not open up, they will not involve people and they will make the position worse.
00:34:54.150 -->
00:35:00.070So, you know, I think that bit around, as you said, bad bad help, but how you respond to it.
00:35:00.070 -->
00:35:09.270And again, I think that tells a lot about an organization, as I say, you can't, I think Lucy says, you can't rule out every instant that's gonna happen.
00:35:09.270 -->
00:35:16.870But you have to make sure that people know they're in a supported environment and you know, collectively they'll work their way through it.
00:35:16.870 -->
00:35:20.390If it happens a second and a third time, maybe that's gets slightly different than that.
00:35:20.390 -->
00:35:29.190But you know, again, I think that's that is it about about an organization pulling together, working together to to find their way through things.
00:35:30.230 -->
00:35:33.590We haven't got too too much longer left, Ian.
00:35:33.590 -->
00:35:42.790I was wanting to ask, is there a a moment that has perhaps stayed with you from the series?
00:35:42.790 -->
00:35:45.590Not not a theme, but something more specific than that.
00:35:45.590 -->
00:35:50.070A single story, a line, exchange, a person, something.
00:35:50.950 -->
00:36:06.310Well, the I loved Lucy's opening story about her wedding in New York, which might not be the example that you wanted me to come up with, but it does remind you that sometimes stars can alive in an amazingly positive way.
00:36:06.310 -->
00:36:12.950And sometimes you can be lucky as a leader, and you need to make the most of those moments, too.
00:36:12.950 -->
00:36:18.550So I'm not answering your question with one, but there are things which particularly resonate with me.
00:36:18.550 -->
00:36:25.990That self-help, that taking time, that stepping back, that time with no purpose.
00:36:25.990 -->
00:36:34.150The two phrases that stayed with me are time with no purpose, and being interested in a thing I don't know that I will learn tomorrow.
00:36:34.150 -->
00:36:37.830They resonate with me because they're already things I believe in.
00:36:37.830 -->
00:37:06.390The one that stayed with me that I am trying to ponder and work through is that bit about behaviors at a board level and a governance level, and how we make sure we get that back to an honest ability to debate, to discuss, to accept criticism, to make sure everyone understands that they're on the same team, because that's the best way that an organization will lead itself on.
00:37:06.390 -->
00:37:11.350So there's moments there that resonate, but you probably know because they they chime with very much where I am as a person.
00:37:11.350 -->
00:37:14.390There's a bit there though, that we're both interested in governance, aren't we?
00:37:14.390 -->
00:37:16.470We're both interested in decision making.
00:37:16.470 -->
00:37:26.310And Lucy alluded to something there that I do I do sometimes see in meetings I attend or observe, and how do we get that back on track?
00:37:26.310 -->
00:37:35.990There was also a reference that Edward said about stop being British, that a client had made to him, sorry, a contact had made to him.
00:37:35.990 -->
00:37:41.830Now we could probably create a whole new podcast on what being British means just at the moment, but let's not go there.
00:37:41.830 -->
00:37:57.110I think there is that bit about do we often do we sometimes take enough pride in what we've achieved as an organization and how good we are, and using that as an opportunity to open doors and to push the organization forward, which I think the context that was used here.
00:37:57.110 -->
00:38:08.710So yeah, there's that that piece about making sure that we make make sure we know those moments about how good you are and as an organization and use that to your advantage.
00:38:08.710 -->
00:38:14.150So yeah, I I've picked a few elements there, some which shine with me and some which I think are a useful challenge.
00:38:14.150 -->
00:38:15.590I'm gonna turn it back to you though.
00:38:15.590 -->
00:38:20.070So is there something that's particularly stayed with you out of this series?
00:38:25.510 -->
00:38:37.270The honest one is probably one that I almost wouldn't share, but it's probably worth explaining why, because the reason why it stayed with me perhaps is is behind that.
00:38:37.270 -->
00:38:50.870So earlier well actually it was at the end of last year, I had an accident that put me on my back, literally, for longer than I I wanted, and I couldn't do much, I couldn't rush anywhere.
00:38:50.870 -->
00:38:58.870In that enforced stillness, the kind you definitely don't choose, you can't negotiate with either.
00:38:58.870 -->
00:39:04.390I found myself thinking differently, more slowly.
00:39:04.390 -->
00:39:11.270I think perhaps about things that I'd perhaps sped past in in the past with the speed to go on.
00:39:11.270 -->
00:39:17.670I was uh I happened ironically to be listening to Lucy's audiobook.
00:39:17.670 -->
00:39:45.110I'd agreed with Lucy to record the podcast uh literally about three days before my accident, and I'd I'd I'd I'd had uh been listening to her book, and so I think the moment is probably more my moment than it is a guest's moment, but near the end of that conversation with Lucy, I brought something I'd been sitting with for some time since listening to a book.
00:39:45.110 -->
00:39:49.270And actually you alluded to it a lot earlier in this conversation, Ian.
00:39:49.270 -->
00:40:01.430Because I I I told her about my very first guest, Fiona Forbes, who years ago had said a phrase that just still I've recorded that three years over three years ago, I think now, and it just has stayed with me.
00:40:01.430 -->
00:40:03.990She's like, look for the gaps.
00:40:03.990 -->
00:40:07.190There's sometimes more in the gaps than what's said and done.
00:40:07.190 -->
00:40:14.070And you know, that idea really resonated with me and has travelled with me through every series.
00:40:14.070 -->
00:40:21.590But when I heard Lucy talking about not looking for the gaps, but living in the gaps, it sort of really made me stuck.
00:40:21.590 -->
00:40:40.230And remember the moment when I was listening to it now, and it it felt like it was going one step further than that, not just noticing the gap, but and not just trying to read it, but choosing to live in it, inhabit it, and being present inside the uncertainty, rather than rushing ahead.
00:40:40.230 -->
00:40:57.350And I'd I'd all I'd also been reading a a lovely book by a Buddhist teacher who I think he he writes, we're neither our feelings nor the story our mind tells us to make sense of them, with the vast silence that knows of our feelings, emergence and their disappearance.
00:40:57.350 -->
00:41:13.670And I just absolutely I don't know, it just resonates with me a lot at the moment and just loves that that idea of the site it feels to me like a superpower if you can get that as a human of understanding you're not your thoughts, you're the consciousness that recognises them coming and going.
00:41:13.670 -->
00:41:23.750So, yeah, three three different ideas, two from episodes in the podcast, one just from outside reading, but they seem to be reaching for the same thing.
00:41:23.750 -->
00:41:28.150And I brought this up with Lucy, and she I think what she said back was just perfect.
00:41:28.150 -->
00:41:49.270She talked about the whole premise of a lot of her work is that people are initially confronted by it, and then they have to work out what they feel, and that the value is in the space, the thinking, the time to give difficult thoughts rather than to rush to resolve them, which I think is why I mentioned to you about paradoxes a a short while ago.
00:41:49.270 -->
00:42:01.510So, yeah, I think the accident taught me to, in its blunt and very unwelcome way, was you don't get to rush recovery, you don't get to perform being fine, you just have to be in it until you're not.
00:42:01.510 -->
00:42:16.470And you you can't schedule that, you can't plan it in, you can't get it in before your holiday, you can't get it in before Christmas, or and yeah, so I think I'm I'm still working out and thinking about what living in the gaps means for me in practice.
00:42:16.470 -->
00:42:26.790But yeah, I find myself returning to it in in difficult conversations, in decisions, not sure about in moments where the pressure is to act.
00:42:26.790 -->
00:42:29.590I reckon you could you could probably recognise that.
00:42:29.590 -->
00:42:35.030I think we've spoken about that before, but sometimes that something quieter says, hang on, just wait.
00:42:35.750 -->
00:42:50.950And do you think people I mean sorry I'm taking this from obviously a very personal experience that you had and a very enforced gap, but I I don't know that people are comfortable with gaps, and we will see this again with coaching that you know, are people comfortable with silences?
00:42:50.950 -->
00:42:58.870But this almost comes back, it's a bit trite to take it back to to mobile phones, but when there's a gap, people will pick their phones up.
00:42:58.870 -->
00:43:03.830You know, that that there's people we live in a world where there aren't gaps.
00:43:03.830 -->
00:43:09.910And I think where there is a gap, people immediately look to fill it rather than actually enjoying that moment.
00:43:09.910 -->
00:43:20.870Enjoy probably the wrong word given what you've you've discussed, but making the most of those moments and actually giving you a chance to to pause, take stock, and look at things.
00:43:20.870 -->
00:43:29.430I think there is so much information that we're being bombarded with that that almost becomes our default position.
00:43:29.430 -->
00:43:46.070We're used to being, you know, sorry to bring my kids into this, but you know, you'll be you'll be sat there watching a TV program and you're you'll turn around and kids are on the phone or you know, trying to do their homework or whatever at the same time, and you just think, whoa, hang on, we're trying to do too much with ourselves.
00:43:46.070 -->
00:43:53.430And I think the uh in all its different meanings of the word gap, it would be good to find ourselves back to.
00:43:53.430 -->
00:44:06.870And I think this does link to those simpler pleasures we could do with retracing our way back to uh those times where we're not looking to fill every every moment and to bombard ourselves with information, opinions.
00:44:07.750 -->
00:44:15.270Yeah I think there's an irony there of it's incredibly simple to just live in the gap, stay in the silent, but it's so hard to do.
00:44:15.270 -->
00:44:28.310And actually the you know, certain situations it can actually be quite courageous because if it's difficult decisions or feelings, sitting and holding those feelings and examining them and trying to get through them can be quite quite challenging.
00:44:28.310 -->
00:44:38.470I know not every decision or or gap would necessarily be like that, but um but yeah, perhaps then to end on on something which I hope may be uplifting.
00:44:38.470 -->
00:44:42.710Well I wanted I asked a few of the guests in the series.
00:44:42.710 -->
00:45:08.230I s I asked them towards the end, what quality do you see in young people coming through now, whether it's your own children or it's young people you see in work or elsewhere that you wish you had or you you has wish you had more of I'll answer with a jokey answer which will buy me time.
00:45:08.470 -->
00:45:21.990I wish I could remember stuff the way that they can soak up information, but maybe I I could I could at one point that ability to this is despite what we've just said about gaps, that ability to just absorb and process.
00:45:21.990 -->
00:45:34.230I think maybe this there's there's a link there, so so uh this is a a stepping stone on the way to the answer.
00:45:34.230 -->
00:45:42.310I think there is a bit within education that and I like to see with my kids is is the critical thinking piece.
00:45:42.310 -->
00:45:50.150So you are you are bombarded with all of that information, but how do you make sure we've got the critical thinking to challenge everything that is being thrown at you?
00:45:50.150 -->
00:45:58.790It's interesting actually, some of the guests talking about AI and how we use AI and the fact we've all got to embrace how it goes, but it does lead to the next point.
00:45:58.790 -->
00:46:02.390But how can we critically challenge what AI is telling us?
00:46:02.390 -->
00:46:11.270And maybe that is a route through back to debate and discussion because actually it's uh something that doesn't necessarily have a personality in the face telling you things.
00:46:11.270 -->
00:46:24.310So I enjoy that ability to debate with children around things and to make sure they're properly thinking things through rather than having it put through.
00:46:24.310 -->
00:46:31.990But actually, I um a lot of this theme has been around stories, telling the ability to tell stories.
00:46:31.990 -->
00:46:38.870And I think that sounds a bit trying, but uh kids are brilliant at telling stories.
00:46:38.870 -->
00:46:41.430And do we value that enough?
00:46:41.430 -->
00:46:44.950A lot of our your I might say your best guests.
00:46:44.950 -->
00:46:49.510I haven't got a league table, but the storytellers are the best guests, aren't they?
00:46:49.510 -->
00:47:07.910And when actually, when I think about it, coming back to what we've talked about before about looking at the world of the future and curiosity and so on, I actually think have we ruled out that storytelling is a key part of that, and clearly it comes through into authenticity and so on.
00:47:07.910 -->
00:47:11.910But there is nothing I love more than my kids telling me a brilliant story.
00:47:11.910 -->
00:47:24.310And actually, I think us teaching kids to develop those skills, because that is again how they will take people with them in the future, that is how they will become the leaders of the future, isn't it?
00:47:24.310 -->
00:47:31.990By actually being able to turn facts or circumstances into something that is very human and that people would want to follow them with.
00:47:31.990 -->
00:47:37.270So yeah, I hadn't expected that to be my answer, and it was a bit of a roundabout way of getting there.
00:47:37.270 -->
00:47:41.510But yeah, storytelling feels like a good note to end on.
00:47:41.750 -->
00:47:42.950I love storytelling.
00:47:42.950 -->
00:47:46.550It's come up a number of times just in conversations.
00:47:46.550 -->
00:47:47.270I think you're right.
00:47:47.270 -->
00:47:49.990I'm not sure it's spoken about or valued as much.
00:47:49.990 -->
00:48:04.230And I don't I don't think good storytelling needs to be sort of polished to perfection, Hollywood style telling a story, but just authentic and human and conveying is I think what you're getting at.
00:48:04.230 -->
00:48:21.190Um if I was gonna have a have a go at this, I think I I think it's perhaps a bit linked to some of what you were saying, but it what I see in young people is they they seem to have a comfort with not knowing everything in a in a different way.
00:48:21.190 -->
00:48:38.470Sometimes there will be anxiety, but lots of time there is there's not anxiety about uncertainty that they're they're less detached to having the answer and more interested in the question, and I've seen more questions, and I think you said earlier about curiosity.
00:48:38.470 -->
00:48:51.270So, and I think there can be that temptation to pretend you're certain about something, and that you know, I certainly uh think I would have fallen into that to that trap.
00:48:51.270 -->
00:49:03.750But I think yeah, I've I've I've learned it's still a journey, I know it's a hackney phrase, but that working out and being curious and not pretending that you've got certainty.
00:49:03.750 -->
00:49:05.350You know, we talked about a moment ago.
00:49:05.350 -->
00:49:17.990Livy Lucy talked about living in the gaps, and I think that that willingness, as we were just talking about, to stay in an uncomfortable space long enough to be curious and let something real emerge is something I wish I had more of and see.
00:49:17.990 -->
00:49:20.550I definitely see in in young people.
00:49:20.550 -->
00:49:22.870So still definitely learn learning that.
00:49:22.870 -->
00:49:29.990Well, I think we're out of out of time, so I think we'll need uh to end it on that note.
00:49:29.990 -->
00:49:32.230Ian, thank you so much for joining me today.
00:49:32.230 -->
00:49:34.070I've thoroughly enjoyed the discussion.
00:49:34.070 -->
00:49:36.310I hope our listeners have as well.
00:49:36.310 -->
00:49:49.190And we we obviously couldn't cover every moment from what I thought was a great series, eight conversations with people who were as ever wonderfully generous with their time and their honest reflections and storytelling, Ian.
00:49:49.190 -->
00:49:50.470Some wonderful stories.
00:49:50.470 -->
00:49:55.430So yeah, if you've enjoyed the series, please do follow the show so you don't miss what comes next.
00:49:55.430 -->
00:49:56.870But thanks again, Ian.
00:49:57.110 -->
00:49:57.830No, thank you.
00:49:57.830 -->
00:49:58.550It's been good.
00:49:58.550 -->
00:50:01.350And uh left me with plenty to ponder on as well.
00:50:01.510 -->
00:50:05.110So superb, a wonderful note to finish.
00:50:05.270 -->
00:50:06.630Yeah, thank you.
