From Obstacle Course To Frictionless Experience - Prof. Hany Mokhtar - CX Chat 021

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Hello there, my name is Martin Henley and this is episode 21 of the CX Education Podcast, where we are working to connect, empower and motivate CX leaders to build better businesses. And today we have a guest and we are blessed to have him and we have missed him because he hasn't been here for a whole three episodes.
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And he is, of course, a very busy customer experience champion. He is a member of the Advisory Board Council at Harvard Business Review, a senior advisor at Arthur D. Little, an advisory board expert at Smart Business Solutions, and an adjunct faculty member at the American University in Cairo as professor of customer experience. He is a keynote speaker, CX trainer,
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and the creator of the CX Masterboard game. He is the CX Master, and my favorite Egyptian in customer experience. Today's guest is Professor Hani Mokhtar. Good afternoon, Professor Hani Mokhtar. How are you? Good afternoon, Martin. Yeah, alhamdulillah, all is great. I hope all is well with you as well. It has been three weeks, as you said.
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It's been three episodes. I don't know if it's quite been three weeks. I think it's been two weeks, maybe. Maybe it has been three weeks. I've missed you, man. I really have missed you. Thank you, Martin. So, yeah. So here we are. It's been good. What have you been busy with in those three weeks? I mean, I've put together three really quite interesting episodes. There was an episode with Chris Franson, who is the CEO of AIPMM,
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certifying our courses. There was an episode with Keir, who's the managing director of a tech company and has worked for Microsoft and those kinds of people. And then I spoke to Bartera, who is our new colleague from Brazil, who's very happy to join the customer experience movement with us. So I've had a productive three episodes. What have you been up to? It needs to at least have been as productive as that.
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Yeah, one of the milestones as well, I am partnering with Zouel University, with Dr. Zouel, the Nobel Prize winner. So we have a university named on his name. And Zouel, they are so keen on the customer experience. And one aspect that we are focused upon is the student's experience and the learner's experience.
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So I have educated and trained teaching assistants. There were 25 teaching assistants registered for the program on the learner's experience and the learner's experience management fundamentals. So we have an additional batch of future professors certified on the student backslash learners experience.
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Fantastic. Good. Because that's something also that I'm really interested in. I want to be CX Education like the most customer centric business that's ever existed. Unfortunately, we haven't come to face with a customer, face to face with a customer yet. But I think that's in our future. Tell me why are the universities so excited about customer experience? What's driving that interest?
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There are two dimensions in this regard, one of which is the university president himself focusing, Dr. Ibrahim, and I get to meet him during that day for the first time. He believes it's not about, you know, Dr. Zouel's background as the inventor and the founder of the FEMT2nd,
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which is a technological invention that was awarded the Nobel Prize, it could sound superficially that his focus is mainly on technology and science. And the president of the university, Dr. Ibrahim, in his discussion, in preparation to the experience educational program,
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His focus was on building the human rather than inventions. So if you build the humans rightly, then you're going to get fantastic inventions. But if you focus on the laboratory production, etc., then you might be missing the human and you are behind an illusion. That's aspect number one.
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Wow. Okay, cool. So a couple of things I'm interested in. Like firstly, that's what I think. That's the sense that I get, especially when I'm in Saudi Arabia. There's a real sense like they will build the people, the people will build a fantastic country. That's the first thing. The other thing that's just shot into my mind is Egypt has done quite well for Nobel Prize winners, hasn't it?
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Yes, true, true. We have at least two that are one in the literature and the other one in the chemistry, if they map it to chemistry. Because the femtosecond is a camera. I don't know if people really know or not. It's a camera that has a speed of less than the millisecond, which is the femtosecond.
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will capture interactions that will happen in this very limited time span. So it changes the physics and the chemistry, the history of physics and chemistry. Now you know much more than we used to know. Wow. Amazing. Fantastic. Okay, good. And then the third thing that's occurring to me is that maybe you should interview this guy for our podcast. How do you feel about that idea?
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Yeah, yeah. Dr. Zouel, he died, but maybe we have a number of his students that can, or you mean Dr. Ibrahim, the president of the university? Dr. Ibrahim, yeah.
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Dr. Ibrahim, yeah, we could invite him. I'm not sure about his schedule, but of course we can invite him because even when he entered the class to tell the message to the teaching assistants, they thought as if we prepared because he entered at the moment, I was just stressing on the same message in day two in particular of the educational program, and they were looking at us as if we were like, okay, you guys, you have prepared the talks. I was like, no, no, no, completely no. You know, like we did not, we aligned on the cause.
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rather on the talks, and he entered at the moment when I was saying the same message, and he re-emphasized the message, so the teaching assistants were looking at us like, okay, so this is kind of a show, no, no, no, completely, it's the same objective, the same cause, the same mission.
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Good. Maybe we can do it when I come to Egypt because I'm coming with my cameras and my microphones and all of those things. So maybe we could get something really nice set up. That would be amazing if we could do that. OK, good. All right. Good. Excellent. Well, of course, you've been busy and productive since I last spoke to you. Of course you have. So today's subject is something I've got issues with. You know, I've got issues with everything.
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And I don't know if anyone has actually ever shared with me the official line on what this is supposed to be, today's topic, and how it's supposed to work. And it seems to me like, this is everything I want to say about it before we get started, if you were truly customer-centric, it would be wholly unnecessary to think about this subject at all.
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Um, so, but like I say, I don't know the official line, so you can give us the official line and I'll let you know what my, um, my issues are with it. And then maybe that will turn out to be an interesting conversation. So the topic of today's, um, conversation is customer journeys. Um, yeah.
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Yeah, customer journeys. Now, I suspect also that you've got a slightly different take on this, have you, than the mainstream take? So maybe you could give us the mainstream take, and then you could give us your take, and then I'll let you know what upsets me about it. How do you feel about that? Yeah, so one way of looking at the customer journey is...
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is the objective. Why are we doing? Why do we need to look at the customer journey? Because we all remember that we agreed managing the customer experience has to happen from the outside in. So putting ourselves in the shoes of the customer and walking his journey so that we are able then, we are able to note and we are able to feel and we are able to realize, to fully comprehend what is he going through for the sake of delivering what is he aiming to attain for him.
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And our backbone for that, our skeleton for that, our backbone is his journey. So now the journey is the backbone for everything we do. Okay, good. Because you think this is fundamental. I think... Are you ready for my controversial view? I think this is a load of nonsense. Yes.
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Okay. I expect you're going to be, but I have to know it. But I'm probably wrong anyway, is the thing. I don't spend very much time on customer journeys. Now, we know because obviously we do keyword research and stuff. We're interested to know what people are interested in.
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Lots of people are really, really interested in customer journey. Shall I tell you what my thinking is? And then you can tell me how wrong I am. Is that okay? It feels to me like customer journey is a little bit like voice of customer. Like if you were bothering to listen, if you were bothering to pay attention,
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And you weren't building these digital walls, which I like to talk about, then you would hear the customer. You know, it's because I think people are deliberately going out of their way to avoid customers, that they have to invest in voice of customer and voice of technology. And I kind of think a similar thing about customer journeys, because I don't think there should be a journey. Yeah.
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I think it should be frictionless. I think it should be. And certainly I don't want to go on a journey with a company. And the way I think about it, because I'm coming from sales and marketing, there's two kinds of journeys that I'm aware of that I don't particularly enjoy. So this is pre-customer. So the first one is sales processes, like putting people through your customers through a sales process.
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And I can talk to you more about that. And then the second one is where the customer ends up being an advocate for your business because they start off as a journey as a complete stranger. And then they have some interest and then they have some and they go through. You can remind me of the stages of that. I've got a really nice slide with it on, but I didn't have time to find it today.
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So those are the two journeys that I'm aware of. And it seems to me like literally in terms of the sales process, my approach has always been much better to get on their buying process than it is to get them on my sales process. So I'm employed to make this easy for them. So if I can work out how it is that they like to buy, then I can bend to that and make it easier for them to buy.
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And then the customer journey that we're all familiar with, the complete stranger to advocate, I think is just wishful thinking. And it's not, it's so rare as to not even be interesting or useful. You tell me how wrong I am. Can you go that way? If your nose is in the middle, it'll be good for the clips. You need to go that way. Yes. Good. That's perfect.
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So as usual, the objective is to organize our management of the customer experience. So what could sound like arm wrestling between our thoughts, I am going to bring the scientific aspect and combine it with the empirical way of doing it in the business. Okay. Let's assume that we don't have a journey.
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Maybe, I hope this makes the sound better. It makes it sound better, yes. Great, okay. I'm happy to do that. Like a pop star. Like a kid in front of the thing with a hair, bro. On the stage, yeah, yeah, yeah. On the stage. Okay. So...
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In this sense, let's assume that there is no journey, no customer journey, and there will be no customer journey. Actually, we are living in a world where no one is paying attention to the customer journey. It's kind of high effort internally for any organization to design or to craft or even depict an existing customer journey. What would happen then?
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What would happen is there is a way of doing business which is inside out. This inside out will prevail. This inside out will lead because for every marketer or marketeer or product manager in the American slang, if they want to do the product design, what do they do? They just depict it from an inside out. He's worried about the revenue if he is concerned about the revenue. So he's making sure that the customer life cycle, not the customer journey.
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That the customer lifecycle is squeezing the customer, is milking the customer and bringing more revenue from him rather than designing. And as such, what you don't like, what is making you unhappy as a customer is going to happen because there is no journey.
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Okay. Now, the IT, the developers in the IT, when they receive the document, because it's a waterfall or a scrum or agile, I'm okay both ways. When they receive the requirements, the requirements will say milk the cow, excuse me, in the metaphor.
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get more money of the customer, but don't worry about his experience. We're not concerned about the experience only when we have a customer journey design that we have questions. And these questions are fundamental and are concerned about the customer. How will the customer find the line item in the bill? Okay. Now we have the customer with the customer without the customer journey. The market here will say, hi, that in the bill don't make it, don't make it in.
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So the discussion is, so I think, what is the official definition? Maybe we should start there of what an official definition of a customer journey is. So what is the official definition of customer journey?
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Because now I feel like you are kind of making my point a little bit. Is you're saying that customer journey, what is it stage as an example? Hmm. Okay. So starting from the brand awareness. Ah, okay, okay. Now the research is going to get you something really different. We should have started with this point. That's critical. Yeah, I think critical.
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Okay, so the customer journey... What is famous online is scientifically wrong. Yeah, what is famous online is scientifically wrong. Okay, good. Now I'm excited and you're excited. This is good. This is going to be an exciting conversation. So the customer journey, according to the EAE in business school in Barcelona, is the customer journey is the process a customer goes through from discovering a brand to making a purchase and in many cases beyond that point toward loyalty. Okay.
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This concept is key for companies aiming to optimize the user experience as it helps them better understand customer needs and expectations at each stage of the process. By understanding the stages of the customer journey, brands adjust their marketing strategies, improve their products and services, and offer more efficient after-sales service. So that seems to me to be quite a reasonable one. The one I'm thinking of, the customer journey that I'm familiar with, having come from sales and marketing,
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is where you move the customer from awareness to interest, consideration, purchase, retention, and advocacy. And this is the one that I've got an issue with. Well, I think, okay, so we can talk about the second one, which is the sales process that I've got an issue with. So is this the one that's scientifically wrong? Is this the one...
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No. Yes, very much. This is the one that is scientifically wrong. So awareness, interest, consideration, buying, retention, then loyalty. This is the wrong one. This is not customer journey. This is customer life cycle. Customer life cycle.
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Okay, okay. But we call this in marketing, we call this the customer journey. And I think the issue that I've got with this, the issue I've got with this is that it's just so much wishful thinking. So and the thing is, I make this make sense to my groups.
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Because you can make it make sense. But the real issue I have with it is that so few businesses are actually invested in it that so few businesses actually end up with advocates, people who can't shut up about their product, as almost not to make sense. So this feels to me like a little bit of idealism and a little bit of wishful thinking.
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For me, the awareness starts with, do you want me to make sense of it or not make sense of it? You tell me why it's scientifically wrong, and then we will have, and I'll tell you how I make sense of it.
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Okay, so awareness, making the customer aware of the brand from a marketing standpoint, as a marketing objective, it's about the dollar sign. How do we move the money? How do we make more money from him? Because if we are a brand and the customer doesn't know about us, then we're not going to hunt him. The net is not going to get more fish. We need to get more fish.
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We are not doing the business for the sake of the customer. You remember the metaphor? We are rotating the room to change the lamp. We're not rotating the lamp to change the lamp. Right now behind money, not behind the customer. So see what practices can we make to get more fish in the net? Irrespective, we are giving the right promise. We are making the right expectations or the wrong expectations. We don't care. We would just that's the core, the core role, the core thinking of the marketer, how to get them.
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Stage number two, now we have a bunch of people. Right, so let's go with stage number one. Okay, and we'll do this together. So the way I make sense, and I don't like this, just because I think it's idealism and wishful thinking and businesses aren't actually invested in supporting customers on this journey is what I think.
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So for awareness, the way I think about awareness is the customer needs to know that they have a want or a desire. They need to know that they have a problem or they could do better with this thing. Does that make sense? Like I need to know that maybe I can buy nicer sunglasses or if I'm colorblind, that I need to know that other people have this problem, that people are working to resolve this problem, etc., etc.
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So I need to know that I have a problem. Let's just call it a problem for now. I need to know that there are solutions available. Then I need to know who provides those solutions. Then I need to be aware of what those solutions cost and how available they are to me. And so for me, awareness is kind of a layering thing where I need to know in the first instance that I want to buy a car. Okay, now I know I want to buy a car. So in terms of how that informs my marketing,
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is instead of me just being brand, brand, brand, I should be in the market talking about the... And this depends on you doing marketing properly and marketing involving product development. Like, I need to be in the market letting people know that I understand people are facing these challenges and this is what the challenge looks like and this is what the challenge feels like and this is what the solutions to the challenge look like and this is what it feels like to overcome those challenges. Does that make sense?
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So this for me is like a content marketing kind of a thing in exactly the way that we're doing here is we are talking about all of the challenges that come along with customer experience. So when people find us, they'll be like, I'm not the only person who has that issue. And oh, look, there are solutions available, you know, and people have come up with solutions to these things. So that's the way that I make awareness in this customer lifecycle make sense.
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is you have to be the customer is on a journey to resolve their issues you know so you need to go and meet them wherever they are on that journey yes and this will be display type advertising broad content type marketing um this is would be my recommendation for people who want to spread awareness so we're calling this the customer life cycle now and not the customer journey is that correct
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Yes. So the current practice, it is a life cycle. The life cycle objective is to get more money, to get more customers, to get revenue irrespective of the experience. Is it the right experience for my customer?
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So I can make a fake promise to capture more customers. And later on, we handle. Let's pass whatever issues to a department that is a sandbag. And this department, we call it customer service, customer support, customer care. That's the core practice that is being applied by so many organizations and firms commercially all around the place.
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Okay, good. Now, just so you know where I'm coming from, I don't think like the purpose of being in business is to get more money. I think the failing is that people think they will get more money by eating the pie and flying, eating the pie and flying.
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rather than investing in this thing. And this is, I suppose, where I knew we were going to agree, is that people are expecting this to happen, them to go, people to go on this journey and then be retained, when in reality they're just smash and grab merchants. They're just trying to get as much money as they possibly can right now.
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So 100%, there's no, and I don't think it's because people are deceptive necessarily. I think it's because they're poorly motivated and they're buying the wrong story is what's going on. Okay, then. So that's how I make awareness make sense. How do you make interest make sense? But just before we leave the brand awareness, one aspect, when we manage it from a customer experience perspective, we make sure that whatever brand promise we give,
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Because the brand promise is shaping one of the essential 4E of customer experience. You remember the 4E where execution via an effortless experience measured against the customer expectations. And the final result or resultant is his emotions. So expectations, as we said, is the gauge upon which the customer is measuring everything.
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So the promise is going to shape the expectations and the brand is the promise that is going to shape the expectations. So when we interfere from a customer experience standpoint, we make sure that the promise is shaping the right expectations that we can deliver, not faking, not attracting people for unrealistic promise just for the sake of getting more fish in the net.
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Okay, good. All right. So I've made sense of it. I think I've made sense of it. Hopefully what I'm saying is making sense of you. So for me, awareness isn't brand awareness. If anything, like we're doing this in a customer-centric way, it's the brand being market aware. It's me demonstrating I have an awareness of them and the challenges that they're facing. Okay, good. Then interest? And making awareness.
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And making them aware of what I have, that's not a problem. But rather than considering them fish to attract them to join the net or to be part of the net so that I hunt them later on. Because it's going to go, by the way, the customer lifecycle has a very famous marketing name. It's called the funnel. Kind of, yeah. This is the funnel. That's the marketing funnel. No discussion. Search it. It will show to you.
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Well, I think probably awareness, interest, consideration, purchase is the funnel maybe. And then, yeah. It is. It is. Okay. It is the customer lifecycle, the funnel, and mistakenly named as the customer journey in so many, in 90% of the websites. Right. Good. Okay, good. So interest, do you have an issue then with interest? Because I can tell you how I make sense of interest. Okay, of course. Let's hear it. You want to start first?
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Well, I'll tell you how I make sense of it is interest is now that the potential customer is aware that they have a problem, that there are solutions, then they are looking for those solutions. So now they are a motivated buyer. So in a marketing sense, what you need to be doing is making sure that you are marketing yourself in the places where people go to look. So people go to look maybe on if they want to buy something, maybe they'll go to Amazon or they will go to Google and they will search what's near me.
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So now what I'm doing is I'm motivating people to make sure that if there are motivated people in the market, then you are found by those people. You do your positioning marketing. You are on the high street. You are at the top of Google. You are functioning on all of the social medias, et cetera, et cetera. So that for me, the interest is these people are now looking for solutions. You need to make sure that you are findable when they are interested in looking for these solutions.
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yeah i i agree with um with few modifications because here then we're going to rename it in the customer experience sense here the two journeys are going to start the two the two streams are going to start to move apart from each other now they are going in the marketing call it interest because they are revenue revenue centric we are customer centric so we're going to say getting info getting info on behalf
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wearing the shoes of the customer. So how would the customer get information about your products, about your product's sweets, about your product's flavors, about your services that you avail to him? Now, it has to be available in an easy way, in an execution doability way,
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It has to be available in the most relevant way to the customer rather than seeking to hunt more customers. So if you are a hotel and they need to know if you have double rooms, if you have family rooms,
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if you have special needs rooms, if you have restaurants for my son who has food allergy, do you have this? This has to be availed rather than, yes, yes, please come, come, you know, come and join our hotel is the greatest. So moving from awareness to interest, now our way of managing it from a customer experience, it's a bit different. We avail it in the most customer-friendly, customer-centric manner. Okay, so what I would say to that is,
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It shouldn't happen. It can't happen. This is like what you're saying is exactly the issue that I have. If, and I think we agree, but, you know, let's make it challenging for the audience. If it's a journey to find information available.
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then no, I'm sorry, you don't deserve to have customers. And if you are hiding information, then you definitely don't. I think what you're talking about now is the consideration where you do, like, so if they're interested, you need to know that they exist. So maybe this is kind of brand marketing. You need to be at the top of the search engines.
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Like they are actively looking for a solution now. Are you going to be found in those places? Consideration now for me is where the information has to be available, the price, the accessibility, the standard, the duh, duh, duh, duh, duh. Probably the testimonials, those kinds of things, which are great customer centric marketing, you know, like actual customers having a good time.
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So when they come to consider the products, now they've got two or three products to consider and they're putting together in their minds maybe a criteria. I really need this thing and this thing and this thing and these are non-negotiables, but these are the red lines. I absolutely have to have these things. Now, this is why I think thinking about customer journeys is nonsense because what we're doing is we're making up for the fact that somebody in businesses has decided to hide...
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information and now people have to go on a journey to find that information that that's that's what i think that's that's why i think that this is a nonsense this shouldn't have to happen by practice when when there was no journey it was they were they were able to legitimately do what you are against because there is no journey you cannot
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When you start doing governance, when you start doing customer experience simulation, it tells you, okay, I'm following what is written. What are you worried about? Why are you discussing with me? Where is the reference that you're going to tell me the customer doesn't like that? From where? Then only when I have a journey and I show what happens, the episodes, the journey is the episodes, the episodes that my customer is going through in his journey.
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Right. I'm going to show him here. He's looking at the customer journey. He's like, oops, okay. Sorry, sorry. We apologize. We're going to re-correct as per the journey. In the absence of the journey, he tells you, I followed my best estimate. What's your problem? Okay, okay, okay, okay. So now maybe, as always, the penny's dropping 20 minutes later than it should have done. So I'm saying there shouldn't be a journey. So the way I advocate marketing, the way I teach marketing, is it should be like...
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falling through a trap door, it should be like slipping on ice. It should be frictionless. Like you develop the product you want, you communicate to them that the solutions are available to the problems they're facing in all of the ways that they're available. You...
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Position yourselves in all the places where they might go to look the top of search engines the high street etc. Whatever it might be when it comes to consideration you give them all of the information they need to make a good decision when it comes to purchasing then they can purchase it in any way they like this is the kind of marketing that I advocate.
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If I'm understanding you correctly now, what you're telling me is customers have to go on a journey. And what I'm telling you is they categorically shouldn't. It's they shouldn't. And by the time you're mapping a customer journey and I've been thinking about this because we've been getting ready to have this conversation for three weeks. Like the only time it should become a journey or the only time it does become a journey.
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is when it becomes a battle, when you're fighting with customer services and they're refusing to escalate the call. And now I have to go to LinkedIn and see if any of the executives are stupid enough still to have a LinkedIn profile or Instagram or whatever it might be. That's when I think you get on a journey.
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Essentially, I think what happens is probably what you're saying is that being a customer of big business sometimes is about just running into walls repeatedly and just getting smashed up completely because things are much more difficult than they need to be. So, okay. So now I think we're aligned. Are we aligned? You're saying there's a journey. I'm saying there shouldn't be a journey, but you're also saying there shouldn't be a journey. But it's only by showing people this is the journey. Then that's how you resolve this issue.
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Because where is the breakdown? Where does it happen when basically the revenue centric people, they want to do business and to ignore the customer? That's what is concerning all of us because we are a customer. We are the ones who are paying the revenue for this organization. And why are we ignored? Because someone would like to make more revenue.
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on on by sucking our blood or by sucking the customer's blood us or someone else yes now how we how do we make it right for him not not to fall in this entrapment if he has good intentions or how do we govern that if he has bad intentions the easy way that will allow him to do bad or good intentions to do harm to do wrong to the customer is there is no journey
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Yeah, just to imagine that it's all smooth sailing and nobody is having any problems is probably the cheapest thing to do until the whole thing collapses. Okay, so let's go with Wikipedia. Customer experience definitions. They're on to customer experience already. Customer centricity, maturity.
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The development of customer journey mapping in digital based... So this is the EWINMA journal. The web page isn't opening so that's not a very good thing. imd.org. What is a customer journey map? Customer journey map is a visual representation of every customer interaction with your brand.
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This maps out their journey from the first time they discover your company to becoming a returning customer. A customer journey map helps companies better understand the customer's perspective and overall customer expectations. Are you agreeing with that? Yes.
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Okay, it's a powerful tool because it gives companies valuable insight into how their customers interact with their brand, how they feel about it, and how likely they are to continue using it. A customer map with these kinds of details can help a company drastically improve the customer experience from beginning to end. When companies do this, stakeholders often notice increased customer acquisition and greater customer retention. Okay, so because what they've got here, are they saying it here, every interaction with your brand. So this is about touch points, is that right?
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Yes, customer experience, customer journey map is a conglomeration of the various touch points that the customer is moving through, an episodic way of the various episodes that he's moving through. And the episodes is a touch point, each episode is a touch point or a combination of a connected touch point that we call subjourn.
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Okay, but can I just say, I don't want to go on a journey. I don't want to have touch points. You know, I don't like I don't really want to have anything to do with you.
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Like, I want to buy a pencil. Yeah, I want to buy a pencil. As a customer, yes. That's me. Yeah, yeah. And so if I can walk into a shop and buy a pencil, then that's absolutely great. And if I never have to think about that again, then that's even better. So maybe this is what I'm upset about is this idea of customer journeys, like businesses thinking people want to go on a journey with us. No, they don't. They want to buy their thing, and they want to improve their lives, and they want to get on their lives.
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I'll get you. I completely comprehend what you are about. And I feel I fully wish that we reach that point. The problem is it's adversely happening. So somebody is saying, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know what? There is no need for a journey. Great. Then we do we remove the customer journey. And as such, we don't have an outside in viewpoint. We don't need to consider what the customer is going through. It's very seamless. It doesn't require it doesn't take something. OK, then if you want to buy the pencil,
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He's going to tell you, go to the second floor. Why do I go to... That's where the pencil is. If you want to buy the pencil, you have to pay double or twice of the price. Why? If you want to buy the pencil, this particular pencil, it's in another store in, I don't know, Yorkshire. Why do I have to travel? Well, that's where the store is near to us and we cannot incur more costs to support you.
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Why don't you support me? I am a customer. Well, we don't have a journey, so we don't need to worry about you. We don't know what are you getting through. Somebody in the IT said, well, the stock vanished. Why do I need to worry about replenishing the stock? I don't know about your customer. Oops, because we don't have a journey. So good luck.
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Right. But do we agree that the journey shouldn't exist? It should be a one and done. It should be. And by virtue of the fact that there is a journey is an admission that you're hard to do business with. Not only are you not customer centric. I'm sorry?
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You mean auto-configured by default because the business is done for the customer. So it's auto-configured, auto-configuration by default. We don't need to depict or design and write it on the wall.
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But I'm saying like, I suppose it depends on what you're buying. But if there are more interactions with your, well, firstly, that's expensive because now you're having to pay to service all of those interactions and deliver all of those interactions. But honestly, this is my biggest issue as a customer is how hard do I have to work?
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to give you money. And so I think, I mean, maybe you can tell me, but how many of these obstacles, which is what we're talking about, this shouldn't be called the customer journey, this should be called the customer obstacle course, okay? Because we're making people jump through hoops to give us money. If we're on the same page now, and it should be called the customer obstacle course, then these barriers are created, are created.
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Do you know what I mean? They're designed. Somebody says, oh, but if you want to do this, then you have to do that. And somebody says to me, oh, well, the policy is, like, you can have your policy. I don't work there. I'm a customer. Do you know what I mean? And nobody's trained me on your policy apart from anything else. So is this entirely about businesses making it hard for people to be their customers? So the game is around revenue.
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Revenue centricity either. It's it's either one of two choices and you cannot have a middleware are we focused any organization any commercial entity are they focusing outside in or inside out. Not an intent as as as the mo.
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I think people are just getting through as best they can. That's what's going on. Everyone's following the path of least resistance and ignoring customers and pretending there's not issues and all of these things and imagining that you don't have to care about your customers is easier, they think, than actually just fronting up and speaking to your customers and saying, look, what is it you need from us and how is it you need it? That's what I think.
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I'll connect you to a real customer case. So I'm not going to mention the name. The customer purchased an air condition. Okay. The air condition came to him with the technician to install it. The air condition came out, just came out from the box and it has a punch, a large punch in the Ferion, in the Ferion space, the Ferion storage. Okay.
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Any discussion? Anything that we need to discuss? The remedy is easy, I suppose. The same technician should repack again the AC and apologize and leave and say, in an hour, we're going to come up with a new device that is clean and clear, right? Yeah. Because we don't have a journey. This company, this great company, it's one of the greatest in the Middle East, one of the greatest in the world, in the Middle East in particular.
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he said, well, excuse me, sir, I have to go. I was like, where are you going? You know? He left and he said, someone is going to call you. Or you know what? You call the call center. When you call the call center, they are going to tell you, OK, we registered the case. We're going to send someone to check. To check on what? To check if you yourself caused the damage to the machine or the technician because we have quality assurance.
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like so me as a customer is like no no sorry I don't know about you I know about our quality measurements like but you know the customer is waiting in the hot weather he needs the AC and like sorry we don't worry about that we worry about the measures so there is a journey I am a customer sorry I don't know about your journey like okay talk to your boss my boss doesn't know about the journey take to the market they talk to the sales we don't know about the journey we're not worried about you we're worried about our internal measures
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Because if this guy caused the hole in the chamber of the Ferryon, we're going to penalize him. If it's you, we're not going to fix it. So why do I have to stay in the hot weather? It came from your box. It came with your guy. We don't care. Okay, good. Now, wait again. Let me continue the case. So they sent someone to check on their guy.
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And when this someone comes to the customer place and he checks on, he writes a report that I certify it was a malfunctioning device, it's the responsibility of the provider. Then they will send you someone in a week time, you know, to carry the wrong machine and someone in another week time to bring the new machine and to install it. Yeah. Okay, shall I give you a case study? Yes.
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I went to buy an oven. My air fryer tried to kill me. Okay. So it happened twice where it got to the middle of the cycle where you have to turn the food. And it started beeping, thankfully. And I went to attend to it. And there was smoke coming out of the electric thing. Okay. So it did that one day. But I thought it must be the electric thing. Anyway, it happened twice. So it's like, okay, now I need a new cooker. And you can get like a little cooker, which is part air fryer, part cooker.
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And I went to the little store near me. It's not very little, but they've had a complete refit. And they said they'll give me this free vegetable steamer if I give them like a review on Instagram. So I did this whole thing. Here I am, it's a sunny day in Bali, and here we are in the whole shops had a refit and blah, blah, blah, show me air fries. And then I left with this thing. And then the pain started, because this thing didn't cook. And I actually went away and I bought a thermometer
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So the first night I tried to cook something, whatever it was, steak. It takes me 12 minutes to cook steak in an air fryer. And here I was, 40 minutes later, this steak wasn't cooked. I'm thinking, this is weird. I get a thermometer and I put it inside. The temperature's not going above 160 degrees. So now I video that and then they say, okay, we're going to replace it. And they replace it. And the replacement was as bad. I cooked chicken wings, which is the mainstay in my life.
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It took me 90 minutes to cook these chicken wings and they still weren't even coloured. So this thing wasn't even achieving like a cooking temperature. And the thing about this is, is that if I followed the instructions, 30 minutes at 190 degrees, supposedly, 220 degrees, whatever it was, then I'd have eaten uncooked chicken. I'd be dead. Do you know what I mean? So it's a safety issue.
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But then I go back to the store and they send me to the technician and then the technician sends me to Jakarta. And now I'm on a journey all week until I walk into the store and say, look, I don't care. This is your issue with your supplies. This is my issue with you. You gave me junk. This is your issue. And then they took it back. Thankfully, I don't know what happened after that. So it seems to me like especially maybe when things go wrong, then there's a journey.
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But I think what we're talking about here is because I've seen it. It's like if you want to buy this thing, then you have to do this and this and this and this. And they're creating obstacles. It's an obstacle course. That's what it is. It's like, why are you making it difficult for people to buy from you? So...
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Oh, because they don't have a journey. They simply don't worry about your journey. They worry about the revenue. So in order to align, you have silos. These silos, they don't care about your journey. They care about their KPIs. So someone in the merchandise, someone in the warehouse. Yes. They protect themselves by not having the journey because they can easily claim. We don't know. It's not our concern. We don't know what's going with your customer. This is your customers. It's not us.
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So this is the egocentric thing going on. This is like, and this is the... And panopticism. Well, I don't think you get panopticism in the way that I understand panopticism. No, it's the boss worrying about what pleases the boss.
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Ah, okay. Well, maybe then. But I think Father Christmas is panopticism is what I think. So I think maybe we think about that slightly differently. We can have that conversation.
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pleases what pleases his the boss of finance for example what would please him to reduce the cost so I would rather make Martin suffer from turning device rather than replacing frame because my boss the CFO or whomever is in the lead in the finance with all due respect to all our finance friends let him suffer I'm not concerned but when we have the journey of a malfunctioning device a customer use case
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that says what does the customer suffer from when he gets a malfunctioning device, we all have to agree in the remedy plan. It's integrated in our MO.
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Okay, so I think you're talking about something else. So I think you're talking about kowtowing, where it's like whatever the boss wants, the boss gets. That's that. Panopticism is the idea that you're always looking. So the way I think about panopticism is what businesses don't do is they don't spend time on the customer service floor or the sales floor. They don't listen to the calls because they're doing the same thing, like better the devil you don't know. So if you don't know what's going on.
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Okay, good. Good. Okay, so can we rename this then? Obstacle courses. The customer obstacle course. Obstacles management. Obstacle, yeah. Because that's what we're talking about, isn't it? We're talking about all of the different barriers people have put in the way to protect themselves in their job.
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And irrespective of what is going to, is what the customer is going through. I'm inside out. Irrespective of what the customer has to go through. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You remember? Yeah. Do you remember my friend who is in the credit and collection who's going to disconnect your credit card irrespective where are you because you have to fill the KYC or you have to complete the documents. And when I tell him, how about your wife? He said, no, no, no, I'm not going to do that to my wife. Yes.
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because he's concerned about the 99.9 collection target and for him he doesn't see you completely i'm gonna tell him so your mother is in london at 10 30 p.m and she wants to take uber and you disconnect her credit card is like my mother no but anybody's else mother okay
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Okay, good. Right. So now I've got questions. Do senior management know that this is what, I mean, we've kind of flattened this now. I know there's a lot of interesting customer journey, like almost more than customer experience. So do people know that this is what we're talking about when we talk, we can't tell them it's customer obstacle course because then they'll be like, well, we don't have any obstacles for our customers to be too much.
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So, but do they know that that's actually what it is? Or do people not talk about it quite as in stark terms as we're talking about it today?
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That's the entrapment that I'm talking about. Somebody in the marketing domain managed to rename the customer journey to give it the name of the customer lifecycle to give it the name of the customer journey. So every time you want to speak about customer journey, the real tool of enhancing and designing and optimizing the customer life, you're going to find yourself falling in the trap of generating more revenue.
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So we are actually working against the customers by fulfilling what is famous online. What is famous online is customer lifecycle. This is owned by someone else. Now the gap is in the ownership of the customer journey, the real customer journey. That starts by brand awareness, where similar, moves to something called the customer is trying to get information. The third touch point that we call it solution design. The customer is designing a solution for himself and we as a provider helping him.
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The fourth touch point is buying, the buying experience. How does the buying experience happen in the most seamless manner, in the most relevant to the customer himself? Post the buying, it's configuration. How do you help him in the configuration? It's not retention. How do you help him in the configuration and the setup of the solution? Post that, getting support. Whenever he needs support, he's able to get the right support. Complaining or returning or refunding.
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or fixing, that's the support channels in the support touch point. Post that, it could be termination. He has the right to terminate, backslash renewing if he wants to renew the contract. That's our customer journey that we know about. That is the customer moving through the episodes that we got to design for. And there are various tools. I'll take you through the various tools and the various shapes, the various editions of the customer journey that we have. Okay, cool.
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So we have a format, a famous format for the customer journey that is called the heat map.
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Now, this heat map could be a digital heat map, could be entering the stadium when we are in the mood of the World Cup, entering the stadium. So you see in the heat maps where people are congested and how you make it easier for them. But now in the marketing customer lifecycle, yeah, yeah, I have so many people coming to the stadium. Let them stay in lines. No, you have the responsibility of making it easier for them rather than being happy about the revenue generated irrespective of what they suffer from.
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Okay, good. Right, so now this is getting much more interesting to me. Yes. But now, okay, so it shouldn't be a journey. It should be a one and done. Whatever you need, you should be able to get in touch with the company, have the conversation. By virtue of the fact that there's more than one...
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waypoint on the journey that's what makes it a journey so the very idea I was right the very idea is wrong appalling that somebody should be invested on traveling through my business and it being difficult okay so now I'm with you do the most senior management there are
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Why is there so much interest in this? And is it the customer journey that's appropriated the term customer journey? Or is it the customer journey that you're talking about that people are interested in? So that's the question because people search customer journey. So now what I'm reading here from Geddes.com, whatever that is,
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is that it was only in 2009 that McKinsey people defined the journey as the one that we all know about, awareness, consideration, purchase, usage. Usage service, that's not in my one. Retention and advocacy. Okay. So has it only been since 2009? I'm sure I've known about it longer than that.
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a bit earlier, but McKinsey have corrected their understanding of the journey more than once. And they have reached a stage where they have the right definition. Not only that, they have introduced a gift to the world of customer experience science when they said when we combine a number of journeys of touchpoints together, they represent a sub journey and in the journey redesign, because this is iterative, it has to continue on happening.
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When I say we, I mean as the cross-functional departments. We gather every month or every quarter and we update the journey as what's happening, as per what's happening with the customer. So they said when somebody was going to redesign or advance or optimize the touchpoint, that is called billing.
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When he optimizes the touchpoint in Seoul in isolation of the payment, then customers are still not happy because there is a spillover effect between billing and payment. So they have called the billing and payment as billing and payment subjourney consists in two touchpoints. When you redesign this subjourney, you have to redesign billing and payment altogether.
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Dude, this is stupid. This is ridiculous. You are fighting against revenue centricity. Always remember that if you remove your feet off the brakes, the car is going to hit the wall or it's going to go down the cliff.
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Right. So here's the thing that I'm thinking now is like, this is ridiculous. And you're right, it does become siloed. And people are protecting themselves and people are creating obstacles. They are getting themselves off the hook is what's going on. But then...
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So what I'm thinking now is that there must be journeys. Like, for example, if I have a different destination within your business, if I want to achieve this thing, then what does that journey look like? And if I want to achieve something else, then what does that journey look like? And if I want to achieve something else, then what does that journey look like? For me, it shouldn't be a journey. Because now what you're doing is you're messing with the value
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offer you're messing with the value exchange because you told me it was going to cost this and now it's costing me this and this time and this energy and this emotion and all of these things so so by very virtue by the very virtue of there being a journey more than one way point i think is an abomination okay so that's the first thing that i wanted to say you're right you're right it's a deformation it's a deform it's an uh yes it's a deformation
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Yeah, but then can't we, because you said this the last time we spoke, when we spoke about this, it's not about the journey, it's about the touch points. We don't need to know about the journey. It's like whenever a customer engages, then that should be as easy and frictionless and satisfying as it can possibly be. So, but you're saying that actually the customer journey is. Yes, that's how the question is how.
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Well, how is you make it everybody, every customer-facing person's responsibility to resolve the issue one time to the customer's satisfaction exclusively and be looking forward to any other instances or challenges that might come up in the future? How? Panopticism. Still how? Tell me how. How do you integrate it in the M.O.?
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Well, if you are, if you, well, I mean, there's work that needs to be done. You have to empower those people. You have to give them the resource, the time, the energy, the access to the information and the authority to make whatever adjustment is required.
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But what I'm saying is rather than thinking of this as a journey, like that's not beyond the wit of man. What you have to do is you have to put yourself in the game. You have to tell people this is your job. These are the resources you have to get your job done. And if these resources don't get your job done, then you have to tell us that that's the case. And we will make sure that we can do that in the future. Because the touch points then...
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maybe we can talk about the employee experience is that what does an employee have to get done to get their job done but for me it's much easier to address the touch points than it is to address but then what you're going to say now is that the touch point is just the end of a long policy which has been designed you have an employee journey as well yes okay yeah
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So whomever you are concerned about and you want to protect him and you want to design for him, you walk in his shoes in the episodes that he is walking through and you design for that.
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Yes. But what I'm saying is it's easier to do that, to address the touch points, than it is to address the entire journey. But what you're saying is the entire journey is a demonstration of this is how difficult it is you are to do business with. But when you come to remedy it, then you're coming back to the touch points, are you?
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Yes, but now if I apply what you say, the call center, and they are magnificent people now. They have a KPI of decreasing the calls or decreasing the SLA of responding to the trouble tickets. So what do they do practically, empirically, what do they do? They finish the call and they tell you then SLA.
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What would make them that angelic and be very good to the customer without knowing his journey, without having his journey connected all together? They're going only to move the ball to another one and tell him, take care, back office, take care. It's a technical issue. The technical guy is going to tell you, I don't know about your customer.
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But the best people are going to be the people that say, you know what, well done, you've got to the end of the journey. We're going to resolve this for you today. That's what the best people will do. It's not utopian. I've experienced it.
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But I think, because this is why this is an about turn. This is a 180 degree change in direction. Because it's not utopian. Because what's going on is it's dystopian. You're sending your customers on a journey. They don't even know they're on a journey. They don't even know where the end is. They don't have a journey. So you can imagine how. They don't have a journey, Martin. They don't have a journey. They just want to get their thing done. They don't have a journey. They have an objective.
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they have they have they have a destination let's let's make it as compatible as possible which is revenue you're only but the customer the customer has a destination is what's going on the customer has a goal in mind an objective okay and then they're put a scent on a journey no one even says goodbye
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Now they're lost in your business, facing all sorts of obstacles. All right, good. So this is what I'm saying is I'm saying nobody knows they're on a journey. Nobody said goodbye. Nobody said safe travels, none of all of these things. Like you wake up one day and you're like, I'm going to get this issue resolved with this business. And now you're on a journey. You know, now you're on a journey. You remember...
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Just trying to align and to explain it to the audience. You remember the case? I'm not sure. I think I told you about it. When somebody goes to the retail outlet in the morning, a VIP, and they tell him, yeah, you want to purchase our device, but go and get change. We don't have change.
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No, you didn't tell me that. That's one of the VIP experiences. When I was on that assignment and we had a customer experience board meeting, I said, gentlemen, let me take you and represent the journey, the actual journey that our customers are getting through.
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And by that time, the head of sales, he was like, you know, getting really angry and really mad. Like, what are you talking about? Are we talking about change? Is change something that we should worry about? I said, okay, so let's agree altogether that the minute details similar to asking the customer to go in the street and get us a change will still make us the right provider. And I will ignore it from a customer experience management perspective. Yeah.
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And then the CEO said, absolutely no, happy to learn, and we have to design for the right experience. We have to avail the change, given that he's a VIP or a non-VIP. Both of them should have the right experience.
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Yeah. Okay. So now I'm getting it. An hour and four minutes later, now I'm getting it. So this is essentially aligned with your CX lab is like you need to understand.
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Because you're right, all of these things can seem really trivial. Okay, so you have to get changed. It's like, what's the hardship? Well, it's like everybody has to get changed. But the issue for me really behind that is why are your... Like, you should make it as easy as possible to do, especially in sales. But I've seen it myself. It's like, okay, I want to buy this thing. This is what shocked me. Until I started running my own business...
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I was on a mission to make it easy for people to buy stuff. When I started running my own business and I had to buy stuff, I could not believe how difficult it was. And even now, like, I bought something online from a butcher's yesterday, and they've got like a 12-field form that I have to complete online to buy this thing. Okay, so I get it now. I had a discussion with a CEO, and he's relatively royal.
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and about his business. And I told him, let's, we were designing an experience for his customers. And he told me, literally in the discussion, he told me, I'm not worried about my customers. I am worried about my revenues. ABC. ABC?
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For the business owners, they are worried about the revenue. You are assuming somebody is angelic and he's doing the business to make people happy. He's doing the business to make money. That's where we need now.
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the journey we are facing, we are facing the biggest challenge. How do we make the business align with the customer? Without the journey, he will... I have another example in the same direction, but really different. I was discussing with the IT. I said, do you think this is a bill, the document, this is a bill that the customer will understand? He said, okay, how do you want me to make a bill that the customer will understand?
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The product manager designed the concept this way and he did not fill a line item for the bill. From where do I invent it from my own imagination? He said, I just dropped the line anywhere in the bill. I said, but this is not clear for the customer. He said, what do you mean by customer? I don't know about your customer. And when I went to the product marketeer, I tell him, you know, you have ignored the customer. I said, what do you mean by a customer? I'm worried about revenue. What do you mean by the customer?
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I said, my customer, your customer, he said, I don't know what the customer is about. I'm worried about the revenue. Okay. Because this is the insanity of what we're talking about here, is that they've just got it exactly wrong, even in this instance. Like, if there need to be more than one touchpoint for a customer to achieve something in your business, you pay for all of those touchpoints.
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And what you're talking about is not like an extra seat. You're talking about departments. You're having to create departments to do this work, to understand what's going on. You're frozen. Are you hearing me? You moved? Yes, are we back? Okay. It was freezing, but only I refreshed it again. Right. So what I was saying is, you're a little bit blurry now, but I think it's okay. You're sounding clear. Because the internet... Okay. Now it's better? Yes, now it's better. Yes, yes.
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Okay, good. So I was saying this is the insanity of it is if you are really interested in revenue, if you're really interested, well, if you're, so maybe this is the actual insanity of it is they're not interested in revenue, that they shouldn't be interested in revenue, they should be interested in profit. Because if there are a number of touch points before a customer, if a customer has to go on a journey, you have to service each and every one of those touch points.
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And that is expensive. And you're not talking about putting an extra person in a seat. You're talking about departments that you're having to fund to deal with the fact that no department wants to take responsibility and resolve an issue. So if you are revenue-centric, then the game is customer experience because this is about saving money.
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Yes. If you are revenue centric, even if you are egocentric, which is something we're not for, if you are product centric, if you are brand centric, the right way is to apply the right customer experience. Yeah, no, 100%. And if you are purely egocentric, then 100%, then it should be customer experience. But people are weirdly egocentric.
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frighteningly egocentric. They're scared. They're protecting themselves all the time. It's not me, it's not my fault, it's not, I didn't pass the problem up, all of these things. So you're accusing me of being idealistic today, but I think-
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It is an about turn. You have to tell people, like, if you were to take the focus off you and put it on your customer, then your life is going to be easier. It's the customers who are causing you the problems because you caused them a problem in the instance, in the first instance, by not delivering the value that you offered them. That's what went on.
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And now you have a tool. So if you have the journey map and it shows who is managing which touchpoint, I can go and sit with the HR and we assign the right KPI to the relevant stakeholder. And by him being assigned the right KPI, we have a tool that is allowing us and is helping him to be rewarded for the right delivery or penalized for the wrong delivery.
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Yes, 100%. And we don't do that unless we train his brain and we educate him about customer experience. And that's our courses and certifications and even my game that I introduce to induce their thinking and belief. So we make the belief and the know-how. We add the layer of the governance, which is the KPIs.
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and the journey map to demonstrate what is our customer and to align our efforts, to align our design initiatives, to align our innovation and so forth. Good. Okay, I get it now. Because are we in agreement there shouldn't be a journey? Like really addressing the customer journey is about reducing the customer journey to the fullest extent possible.
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Yes. Hopefully, if you instill the right customer experience, it's by default instilled in everyone's DNA, then the whole organization are operating towards the same objective, removing the friction and having a frictionless experience, having attainability. You remember our permit, the permit that we designed of the customer needs, of the hierarchy of the customer needs?
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So attaining safety by default, but somebody telling you at the back end, this case of the air condition, what did he tell the customer? He told the customer, I'm not concerned about anything that you are suffering from. I'm only concerned about the audit. Because if the audit will report the case, the technician, so now the technician, the very default question that you are about, the technician should be concerned about your satisfaction or concerned about the audit.
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Yes. He should be concerned about the customer satisfaction. But because there is no journey, he is concerned about the audit because the audit is going to deduct it from his salary. So he's telling the customer, dear customer, bang your head to the wall. Dear audit, please, please don't count it against me.
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Yes, 100%. Okay, so now I'm coming to the other thing that I don't like about this is that there's going to be a technology tool, isn't there, for this? Because if you do like a search, I've just done it now, customer experience definition, five of the top ten definitions are offered by technology people, Zendesk, Salesforce, Qualtrics, etc.,
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Forrester. So it feels to me like this is where the technology companies get to fill their boots. And I don't believe they're customer centric either, if I'm very honest. Not any of these companies in particular. These might be perfectly customer centric.
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But I don't believe that technology companies are. So it's the same with the voice of customer. I feel it's like the voice of customer are all technologies. It doesn't need to be technology. You just need to remove the digital walls and you'll be able to hear your customer perfectly. But it seems to me like that the technology companies don't really have an interest in collapsing the customer journey. They have an interest in.
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maybe streamlining maybe selling some more software so maybe I don't know do you want to tell us about some of the tools or for understanding this
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Yes, of course. So I don't want to mention vendors. I know them all one by one. I know them and they know me. We have met. I have lectured in their conferences or forums or workshops because they revert to my articles and thought leadership material.
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But what I can tell is number one tool, the ability to walk in the customer's shoes. That's an essential tool. And if you remember the helmet that we talked about, the emotion helmet that we put on our heads, that's an essential tool. Not now. Now we need to cascade what is the customer going through to the executive management table. And without that, we have a segregation between the management decisions and the customer episodes or the customer journey or the customer use cases. By the way, use cases is an additional flavor of,
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mapping the customer journeys or sub journeys. So we need to have a tool like the helmet. We need to have simulation tools that will connect the gap between the boardroom and what is happening with the customer on the ground. And what does that look like?
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So, for example, as we mentioned, the helmet is one, it's one of the essentials. The heat map is another critical one. And as we said, the heat map will show you. But now, by the way, if you open LinkedIn, I don't mean to criticize LinkedIn, but just sharing a famous example. There was a button, there was a zone where when you click upon, you add contacts. They realized that this is heavily visited.
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by everyone in the mobile application, they visit the contacts heavily, and it shows as red in the heat map. So what did they decide to do? They decided to make more revenue out of that, and they have moved this button, replaced it with videos, and videos is paid promos,
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So for you now, when you log on the application, you will find videos. Now you used to add contacts from this one and buy intuition, you're going to click on it. When you click on it, it will show you videos. Then you're going to see a video or two and you're going to get angry. It's like, what is this? I used to, it was like, we don't care. We just care about revenue. So awareness, interest, consideration, buying. So we're making money of you. We're not making the experience right for you.
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Yeah, exactly. Because, but the thing...
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I don't really have very much faith in technology anymore. This is my problem. It's like we're dealing with Google now to market these things. And it's like we're getting Google policy things. It's like the thing's learning. Like what's it learning? You're running an auction. We want to enter the auction. This is what we're prepared to pay. Let us know where we're ranking in that auction and how effective we're being and we'll adjust it. But the thing's learning. So it's really, really...
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Yeah, it's hard work doing business with those technology companies, I think. I believe in our educational programs, and I don't mean promotion, but I mean in our educational programs, we educate our CXians, our CX graduates, how to lead the technology providers, not to follow the technology providers, because we have the strategic know-how, the strategic education before the implementation.
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So in all of my students, I can claim, and all of my graduates are able to lead the technology companies in the assignment whenever there is a discussion. And it happened to me at least, I don't know, 55 times or maybe more. When I have the discussion with the gentlemen in the technology companies, they respect that you strategically are in the lead. And they fulfill and actually they benefit by aligning their products together.
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rather than just trying to sell something for you. Yeah, I'm with you 100%. Okay, so how do we do this? How do we understand? Is it a question of like secret shopping? So I'm going, okay, if I pretend to be a customer, then what do I actually have to do to achieve this thing? Is like, how do you do the work?
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Great. Now, you remember we mentioned 5 plus 1D, the decide on your positioning, detect, diagnose, discuss, design, deploy, the 5D of the customer experience continuous improvement. Yes. Every journey, when we simulate and we walk in the customer's shoes and we present to the boardroom with the findings of the journey, we compare every finding to what? To the strategy, to the brand promise that the company is aiming to attain or hopefully attaining.
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Right. So we say, dear CEO, by being number one in the Middle East or number one in the, I don't know, wherever, Far East or number one in the EMEA, let's call whichever names that they are happy using or abbreviations, so many letters. And when we say, do you think by doing the following, we are, I don't know, number 27 even in the, I don't know, EMEA region?
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Like by definition, when we show this gap between our promise or our aspiration or our ambition or our strategic direction and the reality, then the question, there is no question on the table. Everyone has the answer. We are wrong. Then we have the executive board intent.
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We have the executive board alignment. We have the executive board support, and we have the prioritization in the fixing. So now we have the right to say, dear PMO, program management officer, register that the CEO and the executive board have prioritized this fix. And it's not any more part of our, you know, misalignment or any more part of our mishaps. Okay, so this is a top-down thing, is it?
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Yes. And you can align that across so many levels. So before now I do something really, it could be interesting and it's not a trick, it's a tactic. Before I go to the boardroom and present the findings, I go and sit with the owner. So let's assume that the owner is sales. The example that I told you about the change, I go and knock the door of the sales head and say, hello, sir, I'm going to present the following next week in the boardroom. Are you aligned or you don't like it?
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Now someone is going to tell you, no, no, no, no, no, please, please, please don't present. It's kind of exposing me. I was like, okay, I don't have the intent or, or the will or the wish to expose you to the board. But now tell me what can we fix? So that when I share that, you know, we share it with the plan or maybe you buy, I buy you some time and you promise me the fix before we go to the board or.
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No, you tell me bang your head to the wall and the nearest wall that I know that I can bang my head to is the board wall. It's your choices. I'm not even threatening. I'm just being so collaborative. Yeah.
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So one would tell me, no, bang your head to the wall. Okay, while I am in charge of customer experience, you're not going to get a loan. You're not going to get going with a bad customer experience, and I am in charge, even if it's a consultancy assignment. I apologize. That's my, we call it a mana. I don't know. That's my custody.
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And in other events or other examples, someone's going to say, please, please give me some time, I'll fix it. So we are going as a PMO register that he is going to take some time and fix it. And other people, I'm going to respect them even more that I will tell them, take the findings and you present it in the board. So he's going to present the inefficiencies in his department and the plan to fix it. And we're going to say we support him.
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Yeah. So aligning on the journey is allowing all of us to collaborate and have hands-on, joining hands, how to optimize the experience some other times.
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Okay, good. Now, I'm with you 100%. This is a change of attitude. That's what this is. And so it literally is. So for me, the panopticism, where we're disagreeing, is it's not about kowtowing. It's not the boss making sure. It's letting everyone know that they are always being watched.
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So, for example, one of the best jobs I ever had was when I was selling advertising at the very beginning of my career. And the supervisors had to spend three hours a week listening in to calls. So they'd be sitting there with their heads out on. You wouldn't know what they were doing. And they were just listening to each a different call for three hours in a week. Well, you knew then that they could be listening to you at any time. So you were always performing. Do you know what I mean? But I suppose...
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The issue, everything can be taken negatively. So if they decide on the wrong KPIs, on the wrong behaviours, and they police for those behaviours, then of course, panopticism becomes a bad thing, a negative thing.
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I don't think the more I engage with more senior people, the more customer centric I think they are. I think at the very top, they are customer centric. They do know that they're in the business of serving their customers. And then I just think it gets diluted and watered down and weaken as you come down through the hierarchy, as it goes through every filter of every person taking care of themselves, making sure they don't get into trouble, making sure they don't get fired, making sure, et cetera, et cetera. Good.
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What do the technology solutions look like? If I were to engage a technology company to come in and help me with my customer journey mapping, what would that look like? So we have a customer journey mapping tool that designs and aligns and assigns responsibility. It's a cross-functional collaboration tool. That's one key foundational tool that we should have. Right. Right.
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We have the VOC tool. So the voice of the customer platform tool, we either have proxies and connect it to the customer journey design tool or we build within the VOC the customer journey pillars so that when we get the answers, we are able to map all the answers, all the customer feedback to a particular touch point or to a particular journey and we take the fixes as well. Good.
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We have what we call the electronic boards. When you call the electronic interactive boards, that's a simpler edition of the white board and the white board marker, but we always apply it on the place because we are able to think together and design together. Only one simple aspect that I add. On top at the header, I put the customer touch points.
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So in one of the examples, I have installed it in the chief room. So in his room, I have installed the digital electronic, but I made sure that the header is the customer touch point. So everyone coming to his room to present an idea, he said, present it on the wall. The wall has headers. The header starts with, how will the customer know about that? Which is touch point number one.
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Touchpoint number two, how will the customer be able to design it for himself? Or how will we support him in the design? Touchpoint number three, how will the customer configure or install? Any idea coming to his office as a chief or as a CEO level, they have to answer that to him. So back then, before coming to his office to present the idea, they started preparing it following the customer's episode or episodes.
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Good. Okay, so now I'm confused again. So it's because we can't know the customer journey. Can we? I mean, in advance. What do you mean by we? Well, you were talking about we. As a product designer.
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As a product designer. Okay, so now you're saying in advance they should design the journey. So for whatever eventuality, there should be a touch point that resolves that issue.
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By doing research, so they do R&D on behalf of their customer. Because we don't rotate the room, we rotate the lamp. So they are living their customers' lives, capturing what they are suffering from, augmenting it in the shape of a product or a service or a solution. And when they go to present, they are able to fulfill, to continue, to complete it, to have it complete and to actualize what they strived for.
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So we have what is the customer looking for and we have the way to present it to him in the most easy manner, in the most convenient manner and so forth. Okay, good. I don't think, I still don't think there should be a journey. That's what I think. I still don't think. Without the journey, you're going to find a bill with a line item that you don't understand. Right. Right.
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Yeah, I think we're talking about something different now. I think we're talking about all of the eventualities, all of the challenges that might come up when the customer engages with the business or the product. So I think that's something different again. You think what you suffered from in the airport with the airlines was because they have a journey or they don't have a journey?
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I think it's because, well, what I think, you know what I think is I think it's 100% culture. It's 100% culture where everybody is refusing to take responsibility or hide from responsibility and pass the buck and do all of these things.
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And so I suppose if somebody were to sit down and think about what are all of the challenges anyone could possibly have, and then we have a journey for them, a way for them to resolve those things, then that would be really useful. But it wouldn't be as good as empowering with the resources they need every single employee.
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to say if a customer comes with an issue, then you have the time and the energy and the budget to actually resolve that issue for them and let us know about it and we'll make sure they don't have those issues in the future. That would be first price for me. If it is his KPI. If it is his KPI. Yeah, but we're rewriting the KPIs because we know the KPIs are stupid. Based on what? Based on the journey. Based on the fact that we're all customers and we've all been hung up on by customer service people. So that's the customer journey. That's it. That's what you are aiming at. That's the customer journey.
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Yeah, so that customer journey is repeatedly calling customer services until you hope to find somebody, calling different countries, finding senior executives on LinkedIn. That's what that journey looks like, you know. Because they make it off the customer journey. They remove it away and they tell you you're only as equal as us.
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try to reach somebody senior to resolve it for you because i don't know what you're getting through only when you go to the executive gentleman he says of course i have the customer journey in my mind because i am the head of this organization now what what he is responsible for is to cascade the journey to everyone to all the to all the departments to work together on optimizing it or on on sustaining it or on on uplifting its level of satisfaction uh caused because of it
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Shall I tell you about a customer journey at the risk of somebody in the comments telling me I'm irresponsible again? Shall I tell you about a customer journey I went on once? Yes, please. Okay, this was a long time ago. It was before the internet was really useful. It was before we could manage accounts, etc, etc. I went to live in South Africa in 1999. And I carried on with my UK bank account until such time as I started working in South Africa. And then I had...
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and in a South African employee employer and I had to open a bank account and all those things so it didn't make sense to be transferring money to the UK anymore and I tried to get in touch with them about my overdraft and about my credit card and it was impossible like after a month I really tried because I really thought I was going to go back to the UK but after a month it's like this is a waste of time there's nothing I can do about this and I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like I was like
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So I let it slide and I was there for five years. So when I got back to the UK, what happened is within a week or two, the debt collection agency came after me for the overdraft. And they were perfectly polite and they said, look, you owe this money, you should make an arrangement. And I made an arrangement. It was £50 a month, whatever, for however many months. And it was gone away.
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Three years later, what happened is the debt collection agency of the credit card company managed to get hold of me. But instead of phoning me up and saying, hello, Mr. Henley, are we right? Are you this person? Whatever. They phone you up and they say, you need to give us your address. You need to give us your date of birth. You need to give us all of these things. This is the way these companies function. I don't know if they function any differently from that in Egypt.
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And I said to them, I don't know your business. I don't have any business with your business. And I'm certainly not going to give you my personal information. Stop calling me. Well, they didn't stop calling me. They called me four or five times a day for about a month. Now, because I was running a marketing business and I was managing databases, I was able to pull a list of the directors of that company. So one Friday afternoon when I'd really had enough, I pulled this list and I started making my way down, dialing the numbers of the directors of this business.
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And I got hold of this woman and she said to me, oh, it must be a training issue. And I'm like, I don't think it is a training issue because I've been on the Internet and I've seen you're hounding disabled single mothers for 20 pounds of their size, all of these things. I don't care what it is. It's your issue. Don't call me again. In fact, what's going to happen is if you do call me again, every time I get called, you're going to get a call. And she's like, oh, no, I'll make sure it stops immediately, Mr. Henley. And that's what went on.
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Well, the next morning was at 8.30 on a Saturday morning and my phone rang. And it was one of these debt collection people. She said, I need your date of birth. I need your age. I need this and the other. And I said, look, you don't need to worry about this anymore because I'm dealing with senior people in your business about this. And she said, oh, yeah, which senior people are you dealing with? She was really nasty, horrible, these people.
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So I hung up the phone to her and I went back to my list and the woman wasn't taking calls that morning, unsurprisingly. But there was a guy who answered the phone and I said to him, look, this is what's going on. I spoke to your colleague yesterday. She said it wasn't going to happen. It's happened. It's blah, blah, blah, blah. And he's like, well, I'm sure it's a training issue. And I said, look, don't be silly about this. I've got your telephone number. I've got your address. So every time I get a call, you're going to get a call. And when I get really bored of these calls, I'm coming around your house.
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And he said, understood, Mr. Henley, and I never heard from that business ever again. Yeah. Yeah. Because that's what you have to do. You have to stick it to that one person.
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Because they don't have a journey. That's simply, they don't have a journey. They have operations and they have KPIs that are non-customer centric. It's revenue centric or whatever centricity they are worried about. It's operational based. And he doesn't see you as a customer. He sees you as an objective, as a target. Yes, as something to get done, to get out of the way. Exactly, yes. To squeeze, to milk.
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To step upon, he cares less. He cares that you're only a step in his way. You're not an objective. This is the real issue, is they've created an us versus them situation. And they do it over and over again. And it's a battle. Do they win or do we win?
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It is the default when you don't teach them and when you don't instill the understanding of customer experience. Because this kept on happening for the last 150 years, by the way. So it's turning to be a default. And we need to clean, when you mentioned the abomination and the deformation that we mentioned together, we need to work really hard to clean that up.
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We need to work really hard. And I am celebrating every company, every assignment, every consultancy that we are able to, you know, to plant a seed that is growing to turn to be a palm tree, a strong palm tree.
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Yes. Okay, good. And I'm happy to be on this mission with you. And I think what's going on is the technology is concentrating the issue. So now it's like, and I do think they are building digital walls, and that's why I don't trust the digital technology people to come up with technologies. It feels to me like they're creating problems that they don't really have an interest in solving is the major issue, I think, with that.
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Okay, good.
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digital, not digital walls, for digital savvy, we are going to design the right digital world for him. And for those who prefer to talk to somebody senior, the journey design will allow him this. And those who prefer to talk to the call center guys, my mother or whomever, is going to be able to talk to an agent, etc. And so forth. That's what we are about. That's what we are about. 100%. Good. Good. Is there anything else you want to tell us about
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I think for now, for today's episode, we have covered the base of that, the base foundation of knowledge. And maybe in a different episode, we can have discussions on the use cases. There is a famous video for Lionel Messi, the very famous Lionel Messi, the football legend.
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And for Suarez and a third, I don't remember his name, a third player, the three of which are getting into the football court. And one of them was, you know, getting into from bending underneath the door. The other one was, you know, moving his leg on top of the door. And the third one was rotating around the door.
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So three use cases for one customer journey, which is entering the gate. And if you know about it, you would cater for, and we are able to design for. That's when we combine the customer journey science, customer journey management science to the customer experience design to what we have called deeds. Deeds is design, the experience, exclusive details. So we are leaders of customer experience. We are designers of moments. We are about people satisfaction and people better lives.
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Yes, 100%. That's what we're about. That is what we're about. Good. And I think... One thing before we finish the podcast today, I like that this is for me, for me on you, this is the best shirt color, by the way. It's a great color.
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Yeah, they're all variations of this colour to bring out the steely blue of my eyes is the thing. Lovely. But what we've done is we've done some work with the cameras and the lights, and we've invested at this end, we really have. And you sound magnificent with the microphone that close to your mouth. And we're almost like twins.
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Okay, good. So bless you. Thank you. You've opened my eyes now to the need for customer journey. And I think we didn't talk about the sales process. Maybe we can talk about that in a different conversation. That would be good. So you've opened my eyes. What do you think we should talk about next? Should I bring up the list of things that we have to talk about? It's not coming up as easily as I hoped it might.
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I can't even remember the name of the thing now. Have I lost you? No, I'm here, I'm still. You're still there, okay, it's making noises. Things that I can remember that we need to talk about is we need to talk about, we need to do episode two on our hierarchy of customer expectations. And on that note, I am speaking this week to Shep Hyken. So he will be episode number 22.
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So that's going to be interesting. So we have that to do. We have the case, how customer experience saves you money. He knows me by the way. You can say hi. Tell him, any muhtar is saying hi. He knows me. I will tell him 100% for sure. Okay, good. So the business, how you make more money from customer experience, how you save money from customer experience, the hierarchy of customer expectations. Yeah, there's a few things there on the list.
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I can propose a much more interesting topic, which is the CX measurements. That's on the list. And I want to have that conversation. Okay, good. Because I know I'm simplistic. I'm simple. I know that. But for me, this is entirely a culture. When you change your mind, you don't have to stop being revenue-centric and
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you like really focus on making a lot of money the way to do that is to have customers like the best companies in the world i think like rolls royce like ferrari like those those people really take care of their customers you know
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So I think the smart and they make a lot of money. So I think the smart money is the best way to make money consistently is to be customer centric. And the way to make money short term and not have any legacy is to be egocentric or short term revenue centric. That's what I think. OK, good. So are we going to do measuring CX next time? We'll do that. I prefer so. I believe so.
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Okay, that's good. You are an equal party in this. You can say if that's what you'd like to do. And by the time we come back again, you're just edging it by being on just more than half the podcast. So now we've done 21 and you're in 11 of them. So you might have done 22. There's going to become a point where you're not going to be there. But that's going to be interesting for everyone, I think.
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um super cool you're an absolute legend thank you uh we should say for anyone who's made it all the way to the end um if they found this interesting or useful and they could take a second to like share subscribe get involved comment then that would do us the world of good with the algorithms run by the big tech companies that we don't say very nice things about most of the time that would be really good and useful you're an absolute legend thank you so much for being here honey and i will look forward to seeing you in the next episode
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Yes, thank you, Martin. And looking forward as well with the same level of eagerness and passion. Do you know what? I think it's me, isn't it? Not being very clever that makes these things so interesting because it takes me so long to get what you're saying. And then when I do, I'm so deliriously happy that I've got it. I am happy that we are sharing. So sometimes you're bringing them. It's not the devil's advocate, but it's some perspectives that needs to be clarified. So I'm happy that we align at the end.
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100% and we're definitely on the same mission is the main thing like definitely we want businesses to be more customer centric so they can be better in every sense more profitable better places to work better places to buy from better for the environment better for the world that's that's what we're interested in.
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Okay, good. So don't run away. We'll say goodbye now for the sake of anyone who's still listening, and then I'll stop recording. We'll say goodbye like normal human beings. You're an absolute legend. Thank you so much for being here, Professor Hani Mokhtar. I will look forward to our next episode where we are going to cover measuring CX, and I think that's also going to be pretty contentious. Thanks, man. Thank you, Martin.