WEBVTT
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And so I started thinking about how can I kind of exercise my like urge to um create things from imagination while still doing what I like to do, which is still life painting.
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So that's when I started, you know, doing the fleurbals, the insects, and uh putting more strange elements, I guess, into the paintings and just exaggerating things a lot.
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Welcome to Creative Contemplation Podcast.
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I'm your host and the creator, Suzanne Lago Arthur.
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I'm a realist painter working in oils from Loudoun County, Virginia.
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And I'm fascinated with the subject of creativity.
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I want to know what was the spark that led creative professionals into the fields they are in, why they make the work that they do, and what can we learn from each other?
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Listen along as we answer these questions and more.
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I'll be interviewing people from all over the creative universe, artists, designers, writers, you name it, even museum experts who will give us insight into other famous creative minds.
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Maybe together we can find the answers.
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Thanks for joining us today.
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All right.
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You ready?
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Yeah, just go.
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My guest today is painter and NFT artist David Nishita Schafetz.
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Welcome to the podcast, David.
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Thank you, Suzanne.
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It's uh good to be here.
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Oh, it's great to have you.
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I read that you grew up in the Pacific Northwest and studied architecture at the University of Washington, and that you were inspired to do so by your grandfather's career as a landscape architect.
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Can you talk about this early inspiration and training?
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Yeah, um, yeah, my grandpa, Satoru Nishida, he was a really successful art uh landscape architect.
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And so I I I always admired that.
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You know, he was always uh very curious and into drawing and looking at drawings and all all different kinds of art.
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He was just very artistic.
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So when I was younger, I I mostly wanted to be an architect because I loved building things and and drawing.
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Of course, you know, Legos or whatever, but I uh just creating things and drawing.
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And then um when I was I think I was nine years old, we were in I had grown up on the Petitsa Peninsula, which is across the water from Seattle.
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So we had come into the city, um, into Seattle to University of Washington uh to see a a show, and we were walking by the architecture building, and I just remember it it was nighttime, so it was Gould Hall, which I ended up being in, but uh the the lower part of of the studio was lit up because there were students probably about to pull an all-nighter.
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Um and they were they were building um with um like uh balsa wood and hot glue and buildings.
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Yeah.
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Yes, really intricate structures, and that's a specific class that ended up being one of my favorites in in the architecture program.
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But I remember seeing that and I was like, I have to that is what I want to do.
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It's like so much fun.
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So I I think from then on I basically basically knew I wanted to do architecture and knew I wanted to do it at U D at the University of Washington.
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So seeing that all nighter didn't scare you off, right?
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Oh no.
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I mean, you know, I was only nine, so I was like, you know, I didn't know anything.
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But like I get to play with Legos all day.
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This is awesome.
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Yeah, yeah.
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It looked just like so much fun.
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Um, so and then um so I I kind of had that in my mind.
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And even though I felt like during like a junior high and high school, I kind of for some reason I just stopped drawing.
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I uh I don't know what it was.
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I I think part of it was like I had reached the point where I knew when there's something wrong with my drawings.
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I knew um when I didn't like the results or when something was off, but I didn't yet have the the technique, right?
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Yeah, the training to fix that.
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So I was just like, I don't know.
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I just like if I can't do a perfect, I I don't really feel like doing it, you know.
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I was just like, whatever.
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And then of course, you know, it's it's weird, uh, you know, in junior high, you know, um weird transition time and it's very confusing and and stuff.
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So yeah, and you're probably doing sports, right?
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You're like going on.
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Not me actually.
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No, I was more of like a nerdy uh quiet kid.
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Um yeah, so just like making it through junior high was the priority, I think.
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And then in um in high school, I was, I mean, like I think starting in like eighth or ninth grade, I was like, I just can't wait to finish with this to go to college.
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Um, and I still knew I wanted to be an architect, and I still was like, but I still I I wasn't drawing that much, but I just knew I wanted to do it.
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Um so uh that was my focus.
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And um yeah.
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Well, I heard two things there that I think were kind of interesting.
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Um the first is that um you're familiar with that book, Drawing from the Right Side of the Brain, right?
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It's you know, like the classic book.
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I think it was published in the 60s and it's had many iterations since then.
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And and the science has come out, it's you know, it's different.
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Like we know now that not everything that they talk about in the book is uh probably accurate, you know.
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But one of the things that they mention in the book that the author mentions, and I I can't remember her name, she talks about how children, when they're learning, you know, like you know, our first language is drawing, right?
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Um, you know, where it's a it's a nonverbal language, it's a pictorial language that you know children start drawing from the beginning.
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And then eventually they get to a point where they've realized that their drawings are not like real life and they kind of shut down, you know, and that's where like that traditional, you know, technique just for a long time hasn't been taught like at the school level, like it used to be.
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It used to be taught like prior to handwriting.
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Actually, you were taught drawing.
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And it was kind of um, you know, it was considered to be the bridge to cursive writing.
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And now we don't even do cursive.
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So it's interesting to see the educational system, you know.
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So you weren't allowed certainly.
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I think what you what you just said there speaks to probably everybody, you know, at least in the United States, as far as like our art education, right?
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And then the other thing I was thinking, I was wondering, talking about your architecture, is there anything that you've taken forward from that study?
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Like, do you make maquettes when you're creating, you know, your environments for your paintings?
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Like, is that something that you also do as part of your process?
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Um, no, but definitely not not maquettes, but it's definitely helped me a lot.
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Like uh, I mean, in architecture training in in at UW, uh, you know, the the drawing classes were very intense.
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Um, both technical drawing, so perspective and all that, but also, you know, um, well both like in perspective, but also like just flat like orthogonal views and stuff.
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Uh but uh uh thinking three-dimensionally, which I love about architecture.
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I just love that so much.
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But uh that has helped tremendously.
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Because you don't paint a lot of you don't paint a lot of interiors now that I think about it.
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When I'm I'm thinking about your work in my head, it's a lot of um they're they're not really in environments, which is kind of interesting considering your training.
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Yeah, usually not.
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Um I mean part of that is like not focusing on the background as much, especially in still life, but like everything is, you know, everything is like in a still life, everything's in perspective, no matter how close or far you are from it.
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So when I started uh learning how to paint, I felt like I could put more of my focus into color and um trying to figure out composition and handling of the paint and all this because my drawing skills were pretty well developed.
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I mean, my first painting still didn't look that great, but like the the drawing, like the proport sense of proportion and perspective was um almost instinctual at that point.
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Right.
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Um so you know, just like do making sure an ellipse looks right.
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I mean, you can do any sort of technique you want, but if it doesn't look right, it's not right.
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Right, and those ellipses.
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Yeah, yeah.
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I mean, so I knew how to know if it looked right or not.
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My I guess I was uh highly attuned to that, whether something looked right.
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So that was a huge, uh, huge benefit.
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And also in architecture, we we did a lot of I mean, we did a lot of freehand, but um drawing straight lines, like drawing architecturally sound things but freehand.
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Yeah.
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So I mean that skill I've as to this day, you know, it's it's so so valuable.
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Yeah.
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Um to not need the straight edge to to make sure something is straightened.
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Yeah, stuff like that.
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So what so why why did you depart from architecture?
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Because I feel like you and I met, I I want to say 2010, um, at a workshop, like your workshop, and uh and I remember then that you had just maybe finished the Schuler school, which we'll talk about um your education.
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What was it?
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I remember you talking a little bit about it, but what was it that led you to lead uh leave architecture?
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So school the training for architecture I loved.
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Uh it was so uh creatively open and it was intense and exciting.
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I I yeah, it was great.
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Most of it was great.
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Um, but even towards the end of the schooling, I was starting to get some inklings as to what or how I might react to creative constraints later, you know.
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So I remember I remember being in this critique, like we would do a project and and uh and then present it at the end, you know.
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So and then they would have um real architects or professors or whatever critique, you know.
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And I had made this like very fantastical thing with which would without any technical like thought.
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I was just like the form of it, right?
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You know, like one of the professors or practitioners was like, Yeah, this this would just cost too much much money.
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I mean, like it's um it's so impractical.
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Yeah.
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Like, so your idea is ridiculous.
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Right.
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And I remember I remember getting defensive, and I was like, well, the parameters for this project did not include a budget.
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So I I followed the I mean right, yeah.
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And I remember having this little argument with him, which is probably a probably a bad idea.
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Um but yeah, that was kind of like my thing, is like I I just wanted stuff to look cool.
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Yeah.
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So yeah, even if it didn't work, even if it wasn't, you know, structurally sound, if it wasn't um comfortable to be in, I was all about form over function.
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That's awesome.
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So when I so when I was in architecture practice, I don't know what I just found that it was um uh there are so many well creative constraints because you're you work on huge teams and the timelines are so long.
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And also like when you're a new new architect, you have to put in your time.
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Yeah, you have to like pay your dues by like you know, doing really I mean slogging, yeah.
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Horrible stuff.
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All right.
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And then yeah, but eventually I did was able to do some cool stuff, and like by the time I was thinking about leaving, I was like um, I had a little niche, uh niche of um doing like 3D modeling, working directly with the lead designers to get the 3D model up and making some decisions and CAD rendering, is that what it would have been?
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Yeah, um it was mostly in SketchUp, and then we would um and then we would bring it into a high back then SketchUp couldn't do this, but I don't know what it can do now, but uh um into a high-level rendering thing, and then I would take it out into Photoshop and it was a whole process, which was pretty awesome.
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Um, it was fun working in 3D, and but even that wasn't enough.
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And I tried like every size firm because I would just wanted to make sure I that I hated it.
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Right.
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After you spent that money on the education, right?
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Yeah.
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Like it's I I started in a huge firm downtown Seattle, and then I went to a one-man firm, and then I went to another large firm, and then I eventually I ended up in a mid-size firm, which was my favorite.
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Um, but still it just wasn't enough.
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But it was it it got me, I'm thankful for it.
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It was I I I learned a lot from it.
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I realized, you know, I learned that I didn't want to do architecture, and also I learned I didn't want to have a boss.
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I wanted to be uh kind of on my own, you know, do my own thing.
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Yeah.
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And do something that was creative, but like had instant, it could come to life instantly, basically.
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I wouldn't have to wait years to have something built.
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I would just create the thing in front of me and it would be there.
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So you were living in were you living in DC?
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Like when when you went well, when you and I met, I think you had just moved back to the West Coast.
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Um and I think you, I mean, obviously you went to the Schueller School of Fine Arts.
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So you were lit, you know, at least commuting to Baltimore.
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So you were in this area at at some point.
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Um how did that start?
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Why did you why there?
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Why'd you pick there?
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So um my wife uh got into grad school and she had a couple choices.
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It was either gonna be in Seattle or DC, and she ended up choosing one in DC, George Washington.
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That's my my alma mater too, my master's.
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Awesome.
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I think we probably talked about that.
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Yeah, I think we did.
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Yeah.
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Um, so so we knew we were going to DC, and so um I was like, I need I was also at the time that I knew I needed to switch careers, um, but but I needed training first.
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And um, so I actually I wanted I had I had at first wanted to do um after architecture, I w I decided I wanted to do uh comic books, um, you know, sequential art.
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Um so I I was so into that and uh I was um drawing a ton, but I was like, I need uh I'm lacking figure drawing.
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Yeah.
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Um so I found the I don't know how this happens, um, but this is why I was I will always uh give respect to Art Renewal Center because uh I somehow f found their website and I was looking at all the ateliers that were around the country, and there was one in Baltimore.
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So I was like, okay, if we go to DC, I can at least go to the one in Baltimore.
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That's amazing because I I grew up the DMV and I never heard of Schuler School until like much later.
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Yeah, which I think is so funny, but that just shows you how siloed all this education was until recently with the internet, you know?
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Absolutely, yeah.
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I I think I'm really lucky.
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Um so I I worked out a telecommuting situation with the firm I was at, which at the time I mean wasn't as normal, I guess.
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But now it's super normal.
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But uh so I I um got a big computer so I could was able to still do all the uh all the um 3D modeling and stuff and rendering.
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So yeah, during the first two years in DC, um I was working full time still, but also going to Schuler.
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Um so it was really weird.
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Um like Yeah, it was like 10 hours on Saturdays, 10 hours on Sunday, and then Monday through Friday, I would take the mark train to Baltimore, do Schuler, come back around three, get back to DC to make maybe around five, something like that.
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And uh we'd have dinner, and then I would work until 10.
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Wow.
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And so it was like, yeah, four hours a day and then weekends ten hours a day.
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Yeah, and your wife is very, very patient, apparently.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Um, I mean it was a trial for both of us, I guess.
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Like, you know, she because she was in law school and that was very stressful.
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Oh, sure.
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And her workload in this event, yeah, equal.
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Yeah.
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We were just like, you know, uh it was a good transformative time because we were struggling together in a very tiny, uh gross um apartment with cockroaches and uh and bed bugs.
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Um so that was uh uh but we made it so that I think that was uh yeah, it was all good.
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I mean, I I look back fondly at that time, even though it when I was in it, I was like, this is this is hard.
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Right.
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But uh but I I was still loving it um because I knew I was leading architecture.
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So yeah, yeah.
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But that particular environment was a unique environment, right?
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Like uh wasn't one of the founders um the guy who created Marge Medium?
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Like, isn't that the Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
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So yeah, so there's a direct line from um the what uh Jacques Marage through to the Shulers.
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Uh so that's how they paint, is they they make their own um black oil from uh cooking um now it's been so long, cooking lead and linseed oil together.
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Yeah, really healthy, right?
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Yeah, I mean they would boil boil it on the kitchen stove as but uh and then from there um you add I forget what you add, but it's maybe might be Venice turpentine or something like that.
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And they make this like gel-like substance, which is the marriage medium.
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And uh and they teach like a like a traditional uh sort of method, but it's not as like um it's not as academic or as as uh some ateliers where you see that they have to like you know do one cast drawing.
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I was I was wondering what that, yeah, is it as it's not as structured, so they you don't spend like that entire first year drawing from casts or that kind of thing.
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Right.
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They don't hold things back, which I love about Shuler.
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Yeah.
00:17:13.039 --> 00:17:26.079
Like I think in other ateliers, and I'm sure there's benefits to this, but you know, you you're only you know, monochrome charcoal for like year, a year or something, and you know, and you move on, you move up, and eventually you're painting in color.
00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:26.319
Yeah.
00:17:26.480 --> 00:17:29.039
But at the Shuler School, we got everything all at once.
00:17:29.200 --> 00:17:32.640
Um, so and I was mostly there for anatomy and figure drawing.
00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:41.519
Um, so we got that anatomy, figure drawing, um, still life painting, figure painting, um, watercolor sculpture.
00:17:41.920 --> 00:17:43.279
Uh it was awesome.
00:17:43.440 --> 00:17:44.720
I mean, we got the whole thing.
00:17:44.799 --> 00:17:48.079
Um, you did ecorchets and all of that as far as sculpture?
00:17:48.400 --> 00:17:50.079
I uh I missed that.
00:17:50.400 --> 00:17:50.960
Oh no.
00:17:51.039 --> 00:17:51.279
Yeah.
00:17:51.519 --> 00:17:55.359
I think they were uh there was you were sick about that.
00:17:55.920 --> 00:17:57.759
No, I mean there was a whole time period.
00:17:57.920 --> 00:18:04.240
I think I can't now now I can't remember really well, but I might have no, I think I I did it once.
00:18:04.400 --> 00:18:05.680
I think I did it once.
00:18:05.920 --> 00:18:19.759
Uh it's very uh dim in my mind, but not like not to the level of the echochet you see in like uh like really academic places where it's like you got every like single muscle laid on there and yeah, like everything.
00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:26.079
I the c closest I got to that was drawing at a cadaver lab with Rob Labracci, which was really pretty cool.
00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:27.920
Actually, that sounds amazing.
00:18:28.160 --> 00:18:29.200
Yeah, that was the closest.
00:18:30.640 --> 00:18:31.839
That's that's really cool.
00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:36.799
And so you you were it was all primarily from life, I would imagine that you were working the education.
00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:38.880
Yeah, um, right.
00:18:39.039 --> 00:18:46.559
And uh so like I think it was on like two days, maybe Tuesdays and Thursdays or something was the still life painting block in the morning.
00:18:46.720 --> 00:18:49.119
And at first I was like, okay, you know, this is fun.
00:18:49.279 --> 00:18:54.319
I'm just gonna this is part of the program, even though I'm here for figure, I'll just you know do this too.
00:18:54.799 --> 00:18:58.799
And uh, but then really quickly I just loved it.
00:18:58.960 --> 00:19:02.720
Um, but still during the first year I still thought I was gonna eat comic books.
00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:03.119
Yeah.
00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:04.799
Um yeah, where did that come from?
00:19:04.960 --> 00:19:05.920
Let's talk about that for a second.
00:19:06.079 --> 00:19:11.279
Were you are you a big fan of manga, like anything like that, or just traditional comics?
00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:27.119
Both, both a little bit uh mostly just American uh comics, but um I mean that stemmed from like when I was a teenager, um um like X-Men and um stuff like that in the 90s.
00:19:27.279 --> 00:19:31.200
Uh I used to go to the comic book conventions, I was there with you as far as the nerd.
00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:34.640
And then I'd walk in and I would like automatically get a prize.
00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:36.640
And every single time I'd get a prize.
00:19:36.720 --> 00:19:47.200
And I was like, wow, I'm so lucky, and just figured out it's because I'm the only female, like probably they were just giving it to me, you know, and so I could go and trade that in and get whatever comic book I wanted, it happened.
00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:49.359
Well, yeah, that makes sense.
00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:50.480
It's a lot different now.
00:19:50.559 --> 00:19:54.000
I think I think there's more you know of every everyone likes comics.
00:19:54.559 --> 00:20:00.079
Yes, yes, and the cosplay and everything, like that wasn't going on when I was awesome.
00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:14.400
Yeah, I remember I went to when I was at Schuler, I went to the Baltimore Comic Con and I gave I took my um portfolio up to a group of Marvel editors or something.
00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:15.599
Oh wow, uh-huh.
00:20:15.759 --> 00:20:19.359
Yeah, and um and you know, got rejected.
00:20:19.440 --> 00:20:25.599
But I was very it was like super encouraging because he was he was flipping through and I was like, Oh, oh cool, yeah, keep up, keep it up, you know.
00:20:25.839 --> 00:20:29.920
Keep up the and I was like, okay, cool, we're we're just gonna keep trying.
00:20:30.079 --> 00:20:45.359
Uh so I ended up doing, you know, other submissions and stuff online and for web comics and also real comics and stuff, and starting to get my toe in the water a little bit, but like uh around that time I also started to sell my paintings.
00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:51.599
So um Schuler has like two shows a year where her students can try to sell their work.
00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:56.480
Um, and when I was selling my paintings, and then I was like, this is really cool.
00:20:56.640 --> 00:21:02.240
Like, I mean, comic book industry is extremely like uh grueling.
00:21:02.319 --> 00:21:10.880
I mean it's it's very difficult and it's almost easier to be uh to be an oil painter, but also I was I was like, this is really fun.
00:21:11.039 --> 00:21:22.079
Like you know, in the comic books, you're still gonna have probably some sort of boss or editor, or even if you know, you're beholden to somebody, um, unless you're completely on your own.
00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:24.000
Um, but that's probably very difficult.
00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:31.359
But uh I was I just started to enjoy the painting so much and the the immediacy and the independence of it.
00:21:31.519 --> 00:21:47.440
And then um Carol, one of my teachers at Schuler, she she introduced me to um two galleries um in the region, and uh and then I started to get my paintings into there and started to sell, and I was like, this is this is what actually what I want to do.
00:21:47.599 --> 00:21:49.119
I want to I want to paint.
00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:49.920
This is amazing.
00:21:50.160 --> 00:21:50.640
That's awesome.
00:21:50.720 --> 00:21:51.839
What what galleries were those?
00:21:51.920 --> 00:21:52.480
I'm curious.
00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:59.759
Uh one I won't say the name because I ended up uh thinking they were not good, and I left.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:01.680
Yeah we were in DC.
00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:06.480
But the other was um Carmen's Gallery at Solomon's Island, um Maryland.
00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:07.839
And she's awesome.
00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:08.960
She's totally awesome.
00:22:09.119 --> 00:22:15.680
Um that gave me my first like solo show, and um it was a great place uh to start out in.
00:22:15.839 --> 00:22:19.200
So um I had a really good experience with her and that gallery.
00:22:19.519 --> 00:22:20.319
Oh, fantastic.
00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:21.039
That's great.
00:22:21.279 --> 00:22:22.240
Were you always?
00:22:22.400 --> 00:22:29.440
I want to say this carefully, because you were you were um taught in a very traditional environment at Schuler, right?
00:22:29.519 --> 00:22:30.799
Your your painting from life.
00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:35.599
And then at what point did you allow, did you give yourself permission to start blending these worlds together?
00:22:35.759 --> 00:22:42.160
Like the comic book kind of like I I remember those like insects coming into the still lives, like kind of early on.
00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:44.559
Was that like like right around this time?
00:22:44.640 --> 00:22:46.880
Like you're talking about your solo show there at Solomon Island.
00:22:46.960 --> 00:22:48.160
Were you doing that already then?
00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:59.440
I think I started um doing more like that weird stuff, uh, with the insects and everything, and like just more uh imaginative stuff around 2013.
00:22:59.920 --> 00:23:02.240
Um yeah, during that year.
00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:07.920
I think like I was really developing my skills as a uh painter and a still life painter.
00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:09.920
And you know, I take in a couple workshops.
00:23:10.079 --> 00:23:13.680
I did a uh I got to do a La Felle workshop.
00:23:13.920 --> 00:23:14.799
Yeah, I can see that.
00:23:14.880 --> 00:23:16.880
I can see a little influencer, yeah.
00:23:17.200 --> 00:23:21.839
Yeah, and Jeff Legg workshop and um Scott Powers.
00:23:22.319 --> 00:23:32.000
Uh yeah, there's so I had a couple workshops and I and to continue the education after Schuler and um I think there was a point where there was a path.
00:23:32.079 --> 00:23:57.519
You know, I could have taken the path down the more traditional still life route and just kept on refining my skills and developing them in that way and into you know, more in like Midwest, Southwest galleries and stuff like that, or just veer off into whatever, and I just veered off because I was like, I I don't think I well, I needed um something that was going to sustain my interest.
00:23:57.680 --> 00:23:59.759
Like I I needed to be excited about it.
00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:11.279
And so I started thinking about how can I kind of exercise my like urge to um create things from imagination while still doing what I like to do, which is still life painting.
00:24:11.440 --> 00:24:22.400
Um so that's when I started, you know, doing the flerballs, the insects, and uh putting more strange elements, I guess, into the paintings and just exaggerating things a lot.
00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:29.599
Like uh, you know, LaFelle and Jeff Legg, they're they have a beautiful sense of light and they just like you know, they make things.
00:24:29.759 --> 00:24:30.480
Yeah, yeah.
00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:34.799
And they glow, glow things, and it's so much drama.
00:24:35.119 --> 00:24:38.480
And I I just wanted to push that as far as I could go.
00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:39.039
Yeah.
00:24:39.359 --> 00:24:43.119
Did you find your audience did your audience change when you took that departure?
00:24:43.440 --> 00:24:45.839
Um, there was uh I think so.
00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:53.839
Well, there was mostly like crickets uh for the beginning portion, which now after these years, I'm like, this is what just this is just how it is.
00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:54.240
Yeah.
00:24:54.400 --> 00:24:57.519
Like you have to take take them along for the ride.
00:24:57.680 --> 00:25:03.839
And once they see that that's something consistent that comes out of you, they start to understand and they start to get into it too.
00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:05.119
It's just a matter of time.
00:25:05.279 --> 00:25:05.519
Yes.
00:25:05.759 --> 00:25:20.079
So, like, yeah, in 2013 when I started doing the insects, and they um, you know, it was like none of them were selling, but those were the paintings that um uh Dave Etheridge at uh Gallery 1261 really liked, and that's uh how I got into that gallery.
00:25:20.240 --> 00:25:29.839
And so it's like you know, if you just follow your intuition, yeah, follow your intuition, follow your um be true to yourself and just keep on doing what you need to paint do.
00:25:30.079 --> 00:25:32.240
Eventually someone's going to appreciate it.
00:25:32.559 --> 00:25:34.559
Oh, I hope everybody listening takes that away.
00:25:34.640 --> 00:25:36.960
That there's a market for absolutely everybody, you know.
00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:38.000
That's that's wonderful.
00:25:38.319 --> 00:25:39.119
Yeah, that's great.
00:25:39.279 --> 00:25:47.759
And and clearly, you know, um, this interest in the in the merging of these two worlds kind of opened you up to different worlds, which I'd like to talk about now.
00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:51.759
Um you have been doing NFTs um for a while.
00:25:51.839 --> 00:25:54.480
Uh, can we talk about how you got involved in that?
00:25:54.640 --> 00:25:56.559
And, you know, first of all, what is that?
00:25:56.720 --> 00:25:58.640
And you know, what's the whole thing around it?
00:25:58.720 --> 00:26:03.839
It, you know, I from what I understand, there's like prohibitive costs for artists getting into it, there's minting, etc.
00:26:04.079 --> 00:26:05.119
Maybe you can talk about that.
00:26:05.440 --> 00:26:06.079
Sure, yeah.
00:26:06.240 --> 00:26:10.640
Um, so let's see, in uh early 2021.
00:26:11.680 --> 00:26:12.559
I pretty sure.
00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:16.079
Yeah, that was when the famous Beeple sale was, right?
00:26:16.240 --> 00:26:16.480
Yeah.
00:26:16.880 --> 00:26:18.480
69 million or something.
00:26:19.119 --> 00:26:20.960
So you know, it was all over.
00:26:21.200 --> 00:26:23.039
And uh I was like, what's this?
00:26:23.119 --> 00:26:24.240
This is interesting.
00:26:25.119 --> 00:26:34.160
And uh um, so I was curious because in 2017 I had dabbled in crypto um when Bitcoin was like going to the moon.
00:26:34.319 --> 00:26:34.559
Yeah.
00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:38.720
And uh I was like, this is this is crazy, this is some crazy technology.
00:26:38.799 --> 00:26:43.759
And I started doing even a little with trading in crypto and the altcoins and all this stuff.
00:26:43.839 --> 00:26:46.799
It was kind of a an obsessive weird thing for a couple of months.
00:26:47.920 --> 00:26:52.240
Um but eventually I I found I didn't have the stomach for that.
00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:55.039
Like uh that was just yeah too much to deal with.
00:26:55.119 --> 00:26:57.839
But so I kind of like just you know stopped thinking about it.
00:26:57.920 --> 00:27:01.839
And then in when the NFTs came out, I was like, this is really interesting.
00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:15.440
And then on Instagram I saw um the artist um Sergei Marchenikov, um amazing um figure figure painter, um was uh minting his paintings as NFTs.
00:27:15.920 --> 00:27:24.079
And I was like, oh, like you can you can do that as like like a like a is there a market for fine artists to do that?
00:27:24.240 --> 00:27:31.279
And so I kind of watched his progress and then um I think probably some other people were you know started to do it too.
00:27:31.440 --> 00:27:33.920
And I was I was like, this is this is really cool.
00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:41.920
I think I need to try this, you know, because I do think it's um I love the idea of artists getting royalties for secondary sales.
00:27:42.079 --> 00:27:42.480
Uh-huh.
00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:43.759
That's that's amazing.
00:27:43.839 --> 00:27:44.079
Yeah.
00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:49.440
And um, and also it's a totally new um I mean it's a new product.
00:27:49.599 --> 00:27:54.000
It's like uh like I've got paintings, got prints.
00:27:54.319 --> 00:28:01.359
This is a new product for a new audience because there are lots of people who connect NFTs that have no interest in physical works.
00:28:01.519 --> 00:28:01.839
Right.
00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:06.880
Um, or have never owned physical works or collected them, or don't have the money to collect them.
00:28:07.279 --> 00:28:10.240
Um so I just thought it was important to try it out for myself.
00:28:10.400 --> 00:28:10.640
Yeah.
00:28:10.880 --> 00:28:12.559
Um so what did you find?
00:28:12.640 --> 00:28:13.440
What's the verdict?
00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:15.200
Uh well I I think it's great.
00:28:15.279 --> 00:28:17.279
I uh I started it on Ethereum.
00:28:17.440 --> 00:28:26.880
Um, and uh but yes, the costs were I mean it's gas, which which is like how the transaction occurs, or um basically you have to pay a fee.
00:28:27.039 --> 00:28:32.880
Um but that was so expensive to just just do anything to make anything work, it's much better now.
00:28:33.119 --> 00:28:33.279
Okay.
00:28:33.599 --> 00:28:44.960
Um but during that time, like when I first I I minted my very first work and it sold for half an ETH, which at the I at the time That's pretty good, right?
00:28:45.279 --> 00:28:45.839
Was good money.
00:28:45.920 --> 00:28:46.960
Yeah, when I was getting money.
00:28:47.200 --> 00:28:48.799
Yeah, and so I was like, this is easy.
00:28:48.880 --> 00:28:50.400
Yeah, this is great.
00:28:50.559 --> 00:28:56.400
And then I quickly realized that you know, people are eager to buy the Genesis piece, which is the first piece.
00:28:56.559 --> 00:28:59.039
Oh, that's and also the market was really hot.
00:28:59.200 --> 00:29:08.319
Yeah, after that I was like, oh, this actually takes a lot of work to to market and sell because it's totally different from Instagram audience, you know?
00:29:09.599 --> 00:29:11.119
So you had to be on Twitter.
00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:22.480
So that's when I I took my abandoned Twitter account, which had zero followers, and I had to build from zero, yeah, and um and start to get a following there for my NFTs.
00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:22.880
Yeah.
00:29:23.039 --> 00:29:29.839
Um, but Ethereum was too expensive, so I found Tezos blockchain, which everything was costing pennies to do.
00:29:30.079 --> 00:29:41.200
Um, and I was like, this is perfect for me because just like in painting, I needed to build from low, you know, like lower prices, lower costs, and then build an audience gradually and then take them with me.
00:29:41.680 --> 00:29:43.759
Um and how long do you think that took?
00:29:43.839 --> 00:29:45.680
Like that process of building your audience?
00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:46.480
A year.
00:29:47.200 --> 00:29:49.920
I mean, yeah, of and that's consistent work.
00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:53.039
Like um that's like every day posting, like every day.
00:29:53.759 --> 00:29:58.799
Yeah, every day, pretty much being on Twitter and like interacting with collectors and collecting.
00:29:59.039 --> 00:29:59.839
That was a big part.
00:29:59.920 --> 00:30:04.400
Like on Tezos is really special because all these artists are together, we're all collecting each other's work.
00:30:04.640 --> 00:30:05.200
Oh, that's cool.
00:30:05.359 --> 00:30:06.480
It's it's so much fun.
00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:15.039
And I was like, this is the first time I've ever really I've done artist trades in the past, stuff like that, but this is the first time I've I'd ever really collected art.
00:30:15.519 --> 00:30:16.400
Oh, that's really neat.
00:30:16.559 --> 00:30:18.400
Yeah, yeah, that hadn't even occurred to me.
00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:18.799
Uh-huh.
00:30:19.039 --> 00:30:19.279
Yeah.
00:30:19.440 --> 00:30:21.759
It's so that was one of the best parts of it.
00:30:21.839 --> 00:30:24.480
Like, I was like, I get to own this art in a way.
00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:27.279
I mean, it's yes, it's digital, you know, it's a different thing.
00:30:27.440 --> 00:30:29.359
But like in a way, I'm owning this art.
00:30:29.519 --> 00:30:37.519
I'm supporting the artist that I really like, and also being in that community gets my work out there and NFT collectors see it.
00:30:37.599 --> 00:30:38.799
And oh, that's awesome.
00:30:38.960 --> 00:30:39.440
That's awesome.
00:30:39.599 --> 00:30:40.799
Yeah, it's it's really great.
00:30:40.960 --> 00:30:45.680
Um, so so you don't think the bubble has burst on that as far as yeah, like it's still moving?
00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:52.240
I think um maybe like well, like there it was hot, and I think now it's come down to a baseline where this is normal.
00:30:52.400 --> 00:30:53.200
This is the new normal.
00:30:53.519 --> 00:30:54.240
Right, right, right, right.
00:30:54.480 --> 00:30:57.359
And so it's fine, but like the market is much slower now.
00:30:57.759 --> 00:31:03.839
But I found that just like anything in life, the people who make it are just they just keep going.
00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:10.000
They just keep working hard and they keep uh putting their stuff out there and you know, trying their best and trying new things.
00:31:10.160 --> 00:31:10.480
Yeah.
00:31:10.640 --> 00:31:12.559
And so um it's still going.
00:31:12.799 --> 00:31:22.000
We should probably clarify that what you're doing is totally different than all that spam that we artists are constantly getting on Instagram now, like, you know, can I get an NFT of this?
00:31:22.160 --> 00:31:26.880
Can I, you know, and you know, when that first started coming on, I was like, oh, maybe this is legit.
00:31:26.960 --> 00:31:30.240
And then I had to Google and you know, find out, no, it's not legit at all.
00:31:30.319 --> 00:31:30.799
So, you know.
00:31:31.039 --> 00:31:32.720
Yeah, just for any artists, yeah.
00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:36.799
If you ever receive a message that says anything about NFTs, it's a scam.
00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:37.680
Exactly.
00:31:39.359 --> 00:31:41.119
If you don't know that now, now you know.
00:31:41.759 --> 00:31:42.240
Yeah.
00:31:42.480 --> 00:31:42.720
Yeah.
00:31:42.880 --> 00:31:49.920
I'm glad I'm glad we said that because I'm sure there's a lot of people probably, you know, that are still dealing with it and not understanding how to deal with it, you know.
00:31:50.000 --> 00:31:51.200
So oh yeah, yeah.
00:31:51.279 --> 00:31:54.319
Um, but it's still, you know, early days, so it's not too late.
00:31:54.559 --> 00:31:55.279
Oh, good to know.
00:31:55.519 --> 00:31:55.680
Yeah.
00:31:55.839 --> 00:31:56.000
Yeah.
00:31:56.079 --> 00:32:03.440
If you want to enter it, just just start and just you start learning slowly and experimenting and well, trial, trial and error.
00:32:03.680 --> 00:32:12.400
Yeah, this is a great segue now to AI, because I also noticed that's something you've been, I mean, you know, dabbling in, and then it's become part of your process, which I love.
00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:18.559
Uh so do you want to talk about that and the benefits of AI as far as like creating your own reference, etc.?
00:32:18.960 --> 00:32:19.680
Yeah, totally.
00:32:19.839 --> 00:32:27.759
Um, so yeah, I started uh I mean, I think uh AI um caused a visceral reaction in me, and I think it does to everybody.
00:32:28.319 --> 00:32:33.680
Uh the first time I saw I heard of AI art and saw it, and I was like, come on, what is this?
00:32:33.759 --> 00:32:36.400
This is uh low effort art, you know.
00:32:36.640 --> 00:32:36.960
Right.
00:32:37.200 --> 00:32:42.559
Um, but pretty quickly I started to see like some amazing AI artists.
00:32:42.640 --> 00:32:44.480
Like I I didn't know what they were doing.
00:32:44.559 --> 00:32:49.279
Like this is crazy technology, and their art was great.
00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:51.119
I mean, like objectively.
00:32:51.359 --> 00:32:59.440
So um I started to be curious about it, and but I wanted to um still use I wanted it to still be me.
00:32:59.599 --> 00:33:18.000
So what I did is I I uh I started using this app uh this program on online through the browser called Runway ML, and I was able to upload hundreds of my paintings and then like create an AI model that would then generate little outputs um in really low res.
00:33:18.319 --> 00:33:20.160
And let me stop you there for one second.
00:33:20.400 --> 00:33:22.400
So you uploaded your own content.
00:33:22.640 --> 00:33:26.319
Does that stay with you or is the is it available to everybody else?
00:33:26.640 --> 00:33:28.799
No, that's just private, my own private model.
00:33:28.960 --> 00:33:29.440
Fantastic.
00:33:29.599 --> 00:33:33.440
Um yeah, it's good for people to know because people probably have that concern, you know.
00:33:33.839 --> 00:33:35.119
Yeah, I can see that.
00:33:35.279 --> 00:33:38.240
I have the kind of the opposite view, but uh we'll go into that later.
00:33:38.319 --> 00:33:42.400
But anyway, I I uh I yeah, so it was cool.
00:33:42.559 --> 00:33:46.000
So like I was able to do these get these weird outputs.
00:33:46.079 --> 00:33:52.480
They're ugly, they're terri terrible looking, but um, because runway ML, I don't know how it is now, but at the time it was pretty elementary.
00:33:52.559 --> 00:34:00.559
I mean it it's the outputs were like low, like really low pixels, like I don't know, like maybe 300 by 300 pixels.
00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:02.880
I mean it was like yeah, real really low res.
00:34:03.039 --> 00:34:03.200
Right.
00:34:03.359 --> 00:34:05.839
And they and they most of them look like garbage.
00:34:05.920 --> 00:34:10.239
But you go through hundreds of them and you start to find ones, oh that's kind of interesting, interesting, interesting.
00:34:10.559 --> 00:34:18.000
And then I would meld, I would like collage together in Photoshop like four or five of them and mess with it and then make an artwork out of it.
00:34:18.079 --> 00:34:18.400
Oh, yeah.
00:34:18.400 --> 00:34:22.400
And I started to sell those and people liked them, and I was like, this is really fun.
00:34:22.559 --> 00:34:26.000
So I kept on going with that um 2021.
00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:33.760
And then eventually um AI, you know, more advanced ones like Mid Journey came out, really sophisticated results.
00:34:33.920 --> 00:34:43.199
And I I mean, when I first saw people using Mid Journey, I was like, this is some of these outputs are so beautiful you can't you can't say it's not beautiful.
00:34:43.360 --> 00:34:44.800
I mean, it was just so good.
00:34:45.119 --> 00:34:47.199
Some of them were still bad, but some of them were good.
00:34:47.280 --> 00:34:52.880
And and so I started using Midjourney and experimenting with that and getting more sophisticated results.
00:34:53.039 --> 00:35:01.440
Um and now, yeah, now what I've been doing lately with with AI is um blending my paintings together.
00:35:01.679 --> 00:35:02.000
Yeah.
00:35:02.239 --> 00:35:08.880
Um so kind of in the same way I was doing before, like based on my own paintings, but now I'm just taking there's like a function in Midjourney called blend.
00:35:09.119 --> 00:35:20.960
I'm like taking my own paintings and blending them together, getting outputs, and then working from that, like um collaging or uh and photoshopping or even digitally painting on top of it, or you know, just experimenting.
00:35:21.199 --> 00:35:28.079
Um, but yeah, like you're um talking about with reference, um, it has become an amazing tool for yeah.
00:35:28.400 --> 00:35:31.360
That's one and I think that's exactly the word is tool, right?
00:35:31.599 --> 00:35:41.599
Um I think in our community, as far as realism, uh, you know, maybe it's just maybe it's just a small little segment of realists that, you know, believe you can't be working at all from photographs, you know.
00:35:41.679 --> 00:35:43.760
Like I can't believe that that's still even an argument.
00:35:43.920 --> 00:35:45.679
You know, there's there's that uh who is it?
00:35:45.760 --> 00:35:49.599
Um I think George Lucas said that we we all live in cages of our own design.
00:35:49.760 --> 00:35:50.320
You know what I mean?
00:35:50.400 --> 00:35:51.440
And that's literally what it is.
00:35:51.519 --> 00:35:54.639
You're setting up these parameters that nobody else is following, you know.
00:35:54.800 --> 00:35:55.599
So I don't know.
00:35:55.679 --> 00:36:00.800
I kind of think of like that mentality, you know, I understand like I work predominantly from observation.
00:36:00.960 --> 00:36:05.679
I love that, but I'm not anti at all bringing photography in at some point of the process, you know.
00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:12.639
And so to not look at AI as just another tool is I think you're really handicapping yourself and the and the possibility of it.
00:36:12.800 --> 00:36:14.960
Um are you familiar with the artist Andu?
00:36:15.199 --> 00:36:16.719
I I want to say A N-D-U.
00:36:17.039 --> 00:36:17.760
He's on Instagram.
00:36:17.840 --> 00:36:22.159
He does all those like AI, like waterhouse, like on steroids paintings.
00:36:22.960 --> 00:36:25.199
I would I'll send you the link if you haven't seen it.
00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:26.400
It's amazing stuff.
00:36:26.559 --> 00:36:37.840
And then he has these really great articles, like like his writings about AI and why every artist should be using AI and talking about like, you know, kind of educating people about the misconceptions of AI.
00:36:38.079 --> 00:36:38.880
Uh really great.
00:36:38.960 --> 00:36:40.800
I'll I'll put those in the show links as well.
00:36:40.880 --> 00:36:42.320
Um, I think he has a Patreon account.
00:36:42.480 --> 00:37:00.719
But um he basically said that, you know, uh I'm gonna paraphrase this, but he said uh in one of his posts that if artists aren't using AI, you know, like for instance, like I think he brings up this example that if you, you know, let's say you want to do a painting of a circus from a certain vantage point, like you're the acrobat in the air looking down on an elephant.
00:37:00.800 --> 00:37:06.000
And he's like uh something to the effect of, you know, good luck getting that elephant to pose exactly in that position, right?
00:37:06.320 --> 00:37:09.519
But with AI, you can, you know, you can manipulate and do everything.
00:37:09.599 --> 00:37:14.239
You know, if you want to do a painting, you know, in ancient Roman times in the Coliseum, you have that automatically, you know.
00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:17.119
So that just opens up the world tremendously, right?
00:37:17.199 --> 00:37:21.519
For an artist to start thinking creatively and start doing something totally different, you know?
00:37:21.679 --> 00:37:24.400
Um and I find that really, really exciting.
00:37:24.559 --> 00:37:27.840
I have yet to, you know, dip my toe into it, but I definitely want to.
00:37:27.920 --> 00:37:30.320
Um, so that was one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you about it today.
00:37:30.559 --> 00:37:31.280
Yeah, that's awesome.
00:37:31.360 --> 00:37:33.679
I totally agree with that sentiment.
00:37:33.760 --> 00:37:43.920
Um, I mean, in a way, like ideally, you know, if I'm going to use photographs or I need to use photographs, I would like to take my own photograph because I don't want to use someone else's photographs because it feels weird.
00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:46.079
Like it feels like I never saw the original thing.
00:37:46.159 --> 00:37:46.559
Yes, yes.
00:37:46.800 --> 00:37:48.000
I don't have ownership of it.
00:37:48.079 --> 00:37:59.440
And yeah, but like you said, like if there's something ridiculous that I don't have access to, whether it's like some like um um maybe like the Grand Canyon or something, I can't travel there right now.
00:37:59.599 --> 00:37:59.840
Right.
00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:04.639
Or or like, you know, a dragon in space, you know, or something something you don't know.
00:38:04.800 --> 00:38:05.599
Which I've never seen.
00:38:05.840 --> 00:38:08.320
Which I've never seen and I don't have access to.
00:38:08.559 --> 00:38:13.360
So but now there's an another layer of artistic input.
00:38:13.519 --> 00:38:16.880
So it's almost more the artist's thing.
00:38:17.039 --> 00:38:31.760
Yeah, it's like if I'm like, I'm gonna generate a landscape with AI using my own prompts and my own curation and that whole process, then use that as a reference for my painting, and it'll look totally different, probably in the painting.
00:38:31.920 --> 00:38:35.920
Yeah, it's like there's even more layers of creativity, like composition, yeah.
00:38:36.159 --> 00:38:39.440
Yeah, it's it's such an exciting you're literally composing it.
00:38:40.079 --> 00:38:40.400
Yeah.
00:38:40.639 --> 00:38:41.760
Oh, that's so exciting.
00:38:42.079 --> 00:38:43.119
That's really, really interesting.
00:38:43.280 --> 00:38:45.119
Is there any like is there any downfall?
00:38:45.199 --> 00:38:50.320
Is there any like inherent pitfall to it that you see that you think people should be aware of or not really?
00:38:50.639 --> 00:38:52.719
Um, I mean, pitfalls.
00:38:52.880 --> 00:39:01.679
I don't I don't know about that, but you know, maybe just like uh any reference, like being too attached to a reference is always the a big issue.
00:39:02.159 --> 00:39:08.559
Like it in life, it's a little easier, or from life is a little easier to not be attached to the reference for some reason.
00:39:08.880 --> 00:39:09.280
Yes.
00:39:09.519 --> 00:39:12.079
And how do you get away from how do you get away from that?
00:39:12.320 --> 00:39:14.320
You you have multiple references, right?
00:39:14.480 --> 00:39:14.960
Yeah, yeah.
00:39:15.280 --> 00:39:20.960
Yeah, multiple references, but also like I remember when I started using photography, I was like, this is hard.
00:39:21.119 --> 00:39:24.639
Like I for some reason I can't paint from a photo, it's just too hard.
00:39:24.719 --> 00:39:32.880
And I realized it was because like you get locked in and yeah, and you're not treating it like a dynamic thing that's changing and like alive.
00:39:33.199 --> 00:39:35.280
And so you're just like you're boxed in.
00:39:35.519 --> 00:39:40.800
But then when I started to work from photographs more, I was like, okay, no, I'm gonna this is just a tool.
00:39:40.880 --> 00:39:42.960
I just need to, it's like an inspiration.
00:39:43.119 --> 00:39:48.639
I just need to paint freely and not follow the reference, just using it when I need it.
00:39:48.800 --> 00:39:55.760
Um, it's the same thing with AI references, like uh you can't be married to it, it's just a tool, a starting place.
00:39:56.079 --> 00:39:57.280
Um, so yeah.
00:39:57.599 --> 00:40:01.280
Yeah, I that just came to mind, like uh being in life drawn classes.
00:40:01.360 --> 00:40:11.599
And you know, I think probably with an older set of people, um, they would go up, take a photograph of the model that's standing right in front of them, and then go back to their place and just paint from the photograph, you know.
00:40:11.840 --> 00:40:12.559
I've seen that, yeah.
00:40:12.719 --> 00:40:14.800
Yeah, and I I get it, you know, I get it.
00:40:14.880 --> 00:40:17.760
Like I I'll get it more as I get older, you know, probably.
00:40:17.920 --> 00:40:28.239
But just the idea of it that the model is like right in front of you, real life, you know, it's like all of us with our phones that we can't put down, you know, like real life is happening all around us and we're all on our phones looking at it, you know.
00:40:28.480 --> 00:40:31.760
Um yeah, that's there is definitely, you know, a danger with that.
00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:35.280
Um you are now seguing into abstraction.
00:40:35.519 --> 00:40:42.400
So what I'm sensing from you is that you're you've always been very in tune with your intuition and listening to that and allowing yourself the growth.
00:40:42.480 --> 00:40:47.039
Um now you're moving into abstraction, which is really interesting seeing that uh in your work.
00:40:47.119 --> 00:40:52.639
Um and you did a post recently or in your newsletter, because I subscribed to that, that um your grandmother, right?
00:40:52.800 --> 00:40:56.239
Your grandmother wasn't she an abstract artist, or at least some point was doing that.
00:40:56.400 --> 00:40:59.679
Um tell us about her work and and and this interest of yours.
00:40:59.920 --> 00:41:00.239
Yeah.
00:41:00.400 --> 00:41:04.639
Um, so when I was growing up, I didn't really see her that much.
00:41:04.800 --> 00:41:07.920
Um she was a little bit estranged, unfortunately.
00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:13.360
Um is this the Nishita or the on my dad's side, so the shape it's side.
00:41:13.440 --> 00:41:14.880
Um her last name was Tucker.
00:41:15.360 --> 00:41:18.960
But uh yeah, so but I knew, you know, she was an artist.
00:41:19.199 --> 00:41:24.639
And um later, it wasn't until I was in gosh, I don't know.
00:41:24.800 --> 00:41:33.039
I was already I didn't see this abstract painting, this really big, nice abstract painting of hers, until I was already painting it myself.
00:41:33.599 --> 00:41:36.719
Uh or like I was doing still life and all this stuff.
00:41:37.199 --> 00:41:44.239
But at the time that I saw it, and at that time it was in my parents' apartment, I thought it was really cool.
00:41:44.480 --> 00:41:48.079
But I didn't I didn't feel it, like I didn't really understand it.
00:41:48.159 --> 00:41:59.440
I was still kind of in my um more rigid um mode of like realism is the thing, and absolutely sucks, yeah.
00:41:59.679 --> 00:41:59.920
Right.
00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:02.639
So yeah, those are people that can't draw, right?
00:42:02.880 --> 00:42:05.679
But like I was like, this isn't my that's not my bag, you know.
00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:08.000
I right I'm trying to represent something for sure.
00:42:08.239 --> 00:42:09.440
Right, right, right, right.
00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:14.880
But you know, she she was, I mean, now I look back and I was like, this is amazing.
00:42:15.039 --> 00:42:28.079
Like she was painting that at a time when, like, I mean, in the I think in the Bay Area and stuff like that, there was like movement of like yes, yeah, um, abstract like expressionism and stuff like that.
00:42:28.159 --> 00:42:34.000
And it was, I mean, she was in there like like really um at that same time, and so I think that's amazing.
00:42:34.239 --> 00:42:35.679
Yeah, that is amazing, yeah.
00:42:35.840 --> 00:42:38.480
Yeah, and she she could do realism as well.
00:42:38.639 --> 00:42:46.000
Um I've seen her drawings and stuff, and I have kind of some like kind of impressionistic drawings of hers.
00:42:46.079 --> 00:42:46.800
Um interesting.
00:42:46.880 --> 00:42:55.280
Was it kind of Bay Area School kind of looking stuff or I I don't know how to how to judge that, you know?
00:42:55.679 --> 00:43:00.000
Um but I I wish, you know, I wish I could go back, you know.
00:43:00.159 --> 00:43:14.239
I mean, she passed away years ago, but I wish I could go back and connect with her and like ask her questions about this because it's like now as I'm starting to get interested in abstract painting, like, oh my god, like I I have so many questions.
00:43:14.480 --> 00:43:16.079
Yeah, so how are you arriving at that?
00:43:16.159 --> 00:43:18.880
Because I I too am interested in abstraction.
00:43:19.039 --> 00:43:29.920
Um it's it's you know, I think it's probably a pretty typical thing for realist artists to, you know, you you're very, very tight in the beginning and then eventually you start seeing the beauty in in you know all of it, right?
00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:33.280
And I I very much see representational work as being on a spectrum.
00:43:33.360 --> 00:43:37.519
On one end you have the very tight realism, and on the other end you have total abstraction, right?
00:43:37.840 --> 00:43:42.320
So as artists, we get to figure out exactly where on that spectrum we want to land, you know.
00:43:42.480 --> 00:43:45.599
And um, I've been, you know, trying to embrace more abstraction.
00:43:45.679 --> 00:43:52.000
And for me, that that starting point for me is uh just not finishing things as far as I used to.
00:43:52.480 --> 00:43:59.679
Because it's interesting because you know, early on, what made me me, you know, as a painter, I would just like kind of cover that up and try to bring.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:01.679
To full, you know, rendering.
00:44:02.239 --> 00:44:09.599
Whereas now that's what's the most interesting to me is, you know, just when I just don't take it as far, when it's just like a barely implied, you know.
00:44:09.679 --> 00:44:13.840
And I love allowing glimpses of that in the painting, different stages of finish.
00:44:14.159 --> 00:44:15.599
That really, really excites me.
00:44:15.760 --> 00:44:20.000
Um, so I'm wondering what is the the the jumping off point for you in your abstraction?
00:44:20.559 --> 00:44:20.960
Yeah.
00:44:21.199 --> 00:44:25.760
Um well, maybe for let's see, about five or six years.
00:44:25.920 --> 00:44:47.039
Yeah, I've had this urge to like, you know, towards abstraction, but like um at first I was like, this this is doable, you know, like I can I can do abstraction because I have this like set of like uh tools and rules that I use for representational painting um that I can use to create a beautiful composition of that's not representational.
00:44:47.119 --> 00:44:56.880
Like if I use color and edges, values, yes, composition, I all this stuff correctly, I should be able to make an abstract painting that looks good, right?
00:44:57.039 --> 00:44:57.519
Right.
00:44:57.760 --> 00:45:03.199
But I but I quickly found that like that's not no, like something's missing.
00:45:03.519 --> 00:45:04.960
It's a lot harder than you think it is.
00:45:05.039 --> 00:45:06.880
Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's not right.
00:45:06.960 --> 00:45:18.320
Like it's like I'm not getting the same feeling of painting or same feeling of satisfaction, and it doesn't there's something missing, and I could not figure it out.
00:45:18.400 --> 00:45:22.880
So for years I couldn't figure this out, and then just this year, it was early this year.
00:45:23.039 --> 00:45:30.320
Um, I don't know, I was talking, you know, this was I think I don't know, somewhere around January or February or something.
00:45:30.480 --> 00:45:46.400
We have this kid's book about Kandinsky, which is a really cool book, and it and it's like uh it like talks about how Kandinsky, you know, could hear music in the colors, and that allowed him to connect with his emotions, like express his emotions through that.
00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:48.639
I didn't know that about him, but that's awesome.
00:45:48.880 --> 00:45:52.159
Yeah, he has uh synth synthesis, yeah.
00:45:52.320 --> 00:45:57.199
Yeah, um, and I was like, I was like, oh my god, this this is this is what's missing.
00:45:57.360 --> 00:46:01.440
Like like non-representational art is still representing something.
00:46:01.599 --> 00:46:02.159
Yes, exactly.
00:46:02.400 --> 00:46:03.679
It's just representing feeling.
00:46:03.920 --> 00:46:05.519
Bingo, yeah, feeling and emotional.
00:46:05.599 --> 00:46:05.920
Yeah, yeah.
00:46:06.320 --> 00:46:07.599
I was like, my head exploded.
00:46:07.920 --> 00:46:10.639
That's why I feel like it's all representational, you know what I mean?
00:46:10.800 --> 00:46:15.679
Everything like there's just no way you can be painting and not be painting about something, you know what I mean?
00:46:15.760 --> 00:46:18.159
So yeah, that's really that's mind-blowing.
00:46:18.480 --> 00:46:21.280
Yeah, so I I kind of took a page from that.
00:46:21.440 --> 00:46:40.880
Um, and what I tried doing is using music that I connected with and playing that music while painting abstract and um trying to instead of using the rules of uh you know composition that I had made for myself, or um, I just kind of put that into like a subconscious place.
00:46:41.199 --> 00:46:52.400
And then and then I was just moving, like I was just putting down strokes of paint uh on instinct and based on emotion what I was feeling.
00:46:52.559 --> 00:46:54.480
Um again, that's your intuition.
00:46:54.639 --> 00:46:56.079
That's so awesome hearing you say that.
00:46:56.159 --> 00:47:03.280
Yeah, it felt it felt good, like it felt right, like it felt good in a way that trying to paint abstractly was frustrating before.
00:47:03.840 --> 00:47:07.760
Now it felt right, but it was is kind of exhausting in a different way.
00:47:08.400 --> 00:47:12.880
Like because I'm trying to stay in this like heightened emotional state um for hours.
00:47:13.440 --> 00:47:16.079
Yeah, and that's actually really exhausting.
00:47:16.159 --> 00:47:28.559
Um it was fascinating, but you know, I'm yeah, and I'm gonna get keep on doing abstract, and I'm starting to bring some of that abstract sense of sense into my paintings and into my representational painting.
00:47:28.719 --> 00:47:30.960
And that's that's something I'm trying to feel.
00:47:31.199 --> 00:47:32.079
I'm trying to feel things.
00:47:32.400 --> 00:47:32.960
Yeah, completely.
00:47:33.039 --> 00:47:33.599
I I hear that.
00:47:33.760 --> 00:47:34.400
I hear that with you.
00:47:34.559 --> 00:47:35.360
That's really, really awesome.
00:47:35.440 --> 00:47:40.079
Because I I think a lot of people just kind of go through life not not being aware of their feelings, you know?
00:47:40.480 --> 00:47:44.880
So the fact that I mean you've always been in touch with your intuition is is great, you know.
00:47:45.039 --> 00:47:50.719
Um I wonder, are you are are the implementations you use changing now that you're going towards more abstraction?
00:47:50.800 --> 00:47:52.559
Like, are you still using the same brushes?
00:47:52.719 --> 00:47:54.239
Are you bringing brayers in?
00:47:54.320 --> 00:47:55.280
Are you doing like different things?
00:47:55.440 --> 00:47:56.079
Squeegeees.
00:47:56.480 --> 00:47:56.960
Good question.
00:47:57.039 --> 00:47:59.599
Um, yeah, like I'm bringing in different things for sure.
00:47:59.760 --> 00:48:14.159
And I'm also, I don't know if this is like uh like a concurrent thing or caused by or whatever, but over the past, I don't know, year or two, like I've I've become way less uh rigid, you know, and opinionated about things.
00:48:14.400 --> 00:48:16.800
I kind of feel like I now I know I don't know.
00:48:17.199 --> 00:48:18.320
I don't know anything.
00:48:18.559 --> 00:48:29.119
I uh I'm just trying to be intuitive and um yeah and uh not or yeah, trying to listen more to like what's the possibilities, you know.
00:48:29.360 --> 00:48:29.519
Right.
00:48:30.079 --> 00:48:32.320
Letting go of that that veil of judgment, right?
00:48:32.480 --> 00:48:32.960
Yeah, yeah.
00:48:33.199 --> 00:48:34.079
Yes, exactly.
00:48:34.159 --> 00:48:36.880
Yeah, um, yes, not judging as much.
00:48:37.119 --> 00:48:46.880
And now when I you know, in the painting, there's always a point where I get very frustrated, or usually, or like it's a it's a part that you have to slog through, or something like that.
00:48:47.039 --> 00:48:47.280
Yeah.
00:48:47.440 --> 00:48:49.519
And then in the end it's so it's okay.
00:48:49.679 --> 00:49:05.840
But what I'm starting to realize is that more often than not, when I run into those points where either becoming bored or becoming frustrated or not enjoying, you know, the process, I need to let go of uh judgment, but also let go of reference.
00:49:06.400 --> 00:49:14.559
Oh, and just yeah, just put down paint, like just um concentrate not on what I'm trying to do, but like on the painting itself.
00:49:14.639 --> 00:49:16.239
Like I'm just making the painting.
00:49:16.400 --> 00:49:20.400
I'm not trying to represent anything necessarily, I'm just making the painting.
00:49:20.639 --> 00:49:24.079
That makes perfect sense because abstraction is usually surface quality, right?
00:49:24.159 --> 00:49:26.719
Like it's a flat surface, is what you're painting, you know?
00:49:26.880 --> 00:49:35.360
You're more aware of it, whereas you know, fully rendered things, it's it's that sense of depth, the artificial sense of depth within the the picture frame, you know.
00:49:35.440 --> 00:49:36.320
So that makes total sense.
00:49:36.480 --> 00:49:36.639
Yeah.
00:49:37.039 --> 00:49:43.760
And when you're concentrating so hard, right, on making something look like something, then other stuff can't come in.
00:49:43.840 --> 00:49:51.039
Yeah, uh, you're so obsessed with this thing that all these random instincts and intuitions and stuff, you're probably not hearing them.
00:49:51.280 --> 00:49:53.440
Now, how are you aware of all of this that's coming in?
00:49:53.599 --> 00:49:56.239
Like, you know, I ask a lot of my guests, are you journaling?
00:49:56.320 --> 00:49:58.320
Are you doing anything to keep track of these thoughts?
00:49:58.639 --> 00:49:59.920
No, it's just during the painting.
00:50:00.159 --> 00:50:09.599
You know, I just like I feel like um uh and and then I'll like like in terms of maybe color or something, I'll just put down uh what I what my hand is doing.
00:50:09.679 --> 00:50:13.199
You know, I'll just I'll just put down the color that my hand reaches for and puts on.
00:50:13.360 --> 00:50:14.559
Later, I'll analyze it.
00:50:14.800 --> 00:50:15.599
Oh, that's interesting.
00:50:15.760 --> 00:50:15.920
Yeah.
00:50:16.400 --> 00:50:17.440
If that works, yeah.
00:50:17.599 --> 00:50:20.719
But I'm trying to become more and more like instinctual.
00:50:20.880 --> 00:50:21.360
Yeah, yeah.
00:50:21.599 --> 00:50:28.639
But I, you know, I I think I never would have arrived here without the rigorous technicalist stuff first, you know.
00:50:28.960 --> 00:50:30.480
Yes, now I'm starting to get it.
00:50:31.679 --> 00:50:43.119
Like, like I was like, you know, when like I in high school and stuff, I was like, I I kind of liked abstract and modern art and stuff, and then quickly hated it and then hated it for a long time.
00:50:43.760 --> 00:50:47.199
And then and now I'm like actually, I kind of get it.
00:50:47.360 --> 00:50:47.679
Yeah.
00:50:47.840 --> 00:50:51.760
Maybe I'll hate it again later, but like we'll see.
00:50:51.920 --> 00:50:52.159
Yeah.
00:50:52.400 --> 00:50:54.719
I'm trying to remain, I'm trying to keep an open mind.
00:50:54.800 --> 00:51:03.119
And you know, NFTs have helped with that because I've seen I've been exposed to so much different types of art now that um I've started to appreciate all sorts of crazy stuff.
00:51:03.280 --> 00:51:04.480
So that's wonderful.
00:51:04.639 --> 00:51:05.119
Yeah.
00:51:05.360 --> 00:51:05.679
Yeah.
00:51:05.920 --> 00:51:06.719
Oh, that's awesome.
00:51:06.880 --> 00:51:08.639
Can we talk a little bit about the themes in your work?
00:51:08.800 --> 00:51:12.639
Like what are kind of you know, obviously uh you do a lot of figurative work, right?
00:51:12.800 --> 00:51:15.360
And um, you talked about the um, what are they called again?
00:51:15.440 --> 00:51:16.559
The Furbies, right?
00:51:17.360 --> 00:51:17.920
Flurables.
00:51:18.239 --> 00:51:20.159
Flurables, your little insects.
00:51:20.400 --> 00:51:21.599
Well, how how has that grown?
00:51:21.679 --> 00:51:24.880
Because I have a great quote from RT.net, which I'll read here.
00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:28.320
It says um that your work is uh reflecting the language of dreams.
00:51:28.480 --> 00:51:33.280
These dark, hyper-realistic tableaux suggest bizarre and intriguing narratives.
00:51:33.440 --> 00:51:34.320
Is that true?
00:51:34.639 --> 00:51:35.599
What do you think?
00:51:36.559 --> 00:51:37.679
That's a great quote.
00:51:37.840 --> 00:51:40.559
Yeah, I'm not sure if it's accurate.
00:51:40.800 --> 00:51:43.599
Like uh I like stuff, yeah.
00:51:44.239 --> 00:51:46.079
I like the I like the quote a lot.
00:51:46.159 --> 00:51:46.320
Yeah.
00:51:46.480 --> 00:51:47.760
That was really it was a great article.
00:51:48.000 --> 00:51:49.119
Yeah, it makes you sound important.
00:51:49.280 --> 00:51:49.440
Yeah.
00:51:49.679 --> 00:51:51.119
Yeah, it sounds really good.
00:51:51.360 --> 00:51:52.719
I'm not sure what it means.
00:51:52.880 --> 00:51:54.000
I'm not sure if that's true.
00:51:54.320 --> 00:51:55.599
That was my thought too.
00:51:55.840 --> 00:51:58.559
But it's kind of it's kind of, I mean, I kind of like it.
00:51:58.719 --> 00:52:04.320
Like uh, I mean, I um I'm trying to I don't think your work is dark though.
00:52:04.400 --> 00:52:11.760
I mean, I mean, maybe like, you know, uh the ki Kirascuro, like it's definitely like, you know, light emerging from dark, but that's how light happens, right?
00:52:11.840 --> 00:52:14.880
It emerges from dark, and that's how you see that it's light, right?
00:52:15.039 --> 00:52:17.440
But I don't think your subject matter is dark.
00:52:17.519 --> 00:52:19.519
So I wouldn't I wouldn't say that about your work.
00:52:19.679 --> 00:52:20.320
I mean, what do you think?
00:52:20.400 --> 00:52:22.000
I think it's emotive for sure.
00:52:22.320 --> 00:52:22.960
Oh, thank you.
00:52:23.039 --> 00:52:23.360
Yeah.
00:52:23.519 --> 00:52:28.960
I um sometimes it's like literally visually dark, but like not figuratively dark.
00:52:29.039 --> 00:52:29.199
Yeah.
00:52:29.440 --> 00:52:42.159
But uh sometimes the themes come in bunches, you know, like um I'll have a visual idea and uh develop that on one painting, and that um just kind of cascades into the next painting and the next one.
00:52:42.480 --> 00:52:46.960
So but each painting ends up being its own thing at by the end.
00:52:47.119 --> 00:52:53.920
Like like usually I I don't have usually I have a visual idea um that I'll start with.
00:52:54.559 --> 00:53:07.360
And then by the end it has um a deeper meaning and maybe emotional connection to myself and and the title eventually comes to me, usually at the end of the painting or or in the middle.
00:53:07.519 --> 00:53:07.679
Yeah.
00:53:07.840 --> 00:53:13.360
Um and I like yeah, I I used to be a little insecure about that actually, like when I was starting out painting.
00:53:13.440 --> 00:53:19.599
I was like, I need more uh narrative, you know, concept, I need a a deep meaning and or something like that.
00:53:20.400 --> 00:53:22.239
Um well, I was of two minds.
00:53:22.320 --> 00:53:25.119
I was like, what there's nothing wrong with painting pretty pictures.
00:53:25.280 --> 00:53:33.039
I was saying that to myself in a way, in a defensive way, because I was like a little insecure about the fact that maybe my work wasn't deep enough or something.
00:53:33.199 --> 00:53:37.280
And then later I realized that all the work I've done, it is inherently me.
00:53:37.440 --> 00:53:38.559
It's inherently deep.
00:53:38.719 --> 00:53:47.519
Like all that came from all my life's experiences, um, whatever happened was happening to me in my mind at the time, like that all comes from the artist, you know.
00:53:47.599 --> 00:53:55.519
And so you don't need a solid narrative or solid idea in order for it to be extremely authentic and personal and meaningful.
00:53:55.760 --> 00:53:56.079
Completely.
00:53:56.159 --> 00:54:00.079
And the objects and cells that you're working, you know, with are your objects, you know.
00:54:00.159 --> 00:54:02.320
So it's your curation of of things.
00:54:02.559 --> 00:54:03.280
Yeah, I love that.
00:54:04.480 --> 00:54:06.000
I'm trying to chill out about that.
00:54:06.159 --> 00:54:10.400
And then there's just realizing that there is a lot of depth to all the things.
00:54:10.480 --> 00:54:15.519
Like I mean, everything you everything any artist makes, there's a lot of depth to it.
00:54:15.679 --> 00:54:16.719
It's from them.
00:54:16.880 --> 00:54:24.639
And um, but then once in a while, some some other um more uh let's see, deliberate or conscious idea.
00:54:24.800 --> 00:54:27.039
Well, I'll I'll take that and work with it.
00:54:27.199 --> 00:54:27.760
So yeah.
00:54:28.000 --> 00:54:34.480
Um, I think I saw recently, what is the the name of the painting that you did with the that sold at the LA uh LA Art Fair, right?
00:54:34.559 --> 00:54:35.840
Or did sell prior to that?
00:54:35.920 --> 00:54:42.000
It's the figure and it has like that beautiful um landscape in the background that I think was inspired by Thomas Moran.
00:54:42.079 --> 00:54:42.639
Is that the one?
00:54:42.880 --> 00:54:43.519
Yes, that's right.
00:54:43.599 --> 00:54:44.719
Okay, you are boundless.
00:54:44.800 --> 00:54:47.519
That was actually so the ones all the I'm looking at them right now.
00:54:47.679 --> 00:54:52.719
The the paintings that I um the four paintings that were in the LA Art Show, none of them have sold yet.
00:54:52.880 --> 00:54:53.119
Okay.
00:54:53.280 --> 00:55:01.920
But then right after that, the next painting, um, yeah, you are boundless sold for the um Robert Lang Studios uh show, group show at the time.
00:55:02.079 --> 00:55:08.079
Um yeah, that was uh so it seems like every painting these days like gives me some epiphany or something.
00:55:08.159 --> 00:55:08.320
Yeah.
00:55:09.119 --> 00:55:12.559
And this one, that was one where I was like, reference is like killing me.
00:55:12.639 --> 00:55:14.960
Like, yeah, yeah, it's really tiring me out.
00:55:15.039 --> 00:55:16.480
Like I'm I'm sick of it.
00:55:16.639 --> 00:55:32.400
And uh so, but at the beginning, so what I did was I took one of my AI artworks that had been generated kind of from my paintings, and then took Thomas Moran's uh Green River Cliffs, Wyoming painting, which is like an amazing painting, one of my favorites.
00:55:32.639 --> 00:55:34.079
I think that's in the Smithsonian, right?
00:55:34.239 --> 00:55:35.440
Yes, yeah, uh-huh.
00:55:35.679 --> 00:55:39.679
And then blended those together in AI to see what would happen.
00:55:39.840 --> 00:55:45.599
And I came up with these really cool looking outputs, and that's what sparked this idea.
00:55:45.760 --> 00:55:45.920
Yeah.
00:55:46.079 --> 00:55:52.159
And then I took a couple of those outputs, the ones that look like like compositionally something I'd be interested in.
00:55:52.320 --> 00:55:57.199
And then I got uh figure reference from a model on um Instagram.
00:55:57.519 --> 00:56:00.639
Um I think the tag her tag is Mar Art Model.
00:56:00.800 --> 00:56:01.840
Um, she's awesome.
00:56:02.000 --> 00:56:09.920
But I I um so I purchased reference from her and um I collaged that in there and um started making this painting.
00:56:10.079 --> 00:56:20.800
Um at first being pretty faithful to my Photoshop like composite of everything, uh especially with and then with the figure, I mean I I needed the figure as reference to make sure it looked good and everything.
00:56:21.039 --> 00:56:34.079
But at a certain point, uh once the figure was pretty much in there, I was like, you know, that that uh the sticky point of a painting where it's like it turns into a slog, and I was really kind of frustrated with the whole thing.
00:56:34.239 --> 00:56:34.480
Yeah.
00:56:34.639 --> 00:56:36.159
And I was like, this is annoying.
00:56:36.239 --> 00:56:46.880
I just stopped looking at all reference, and I was just um trying to paint instinctually and concentrate on making a good painting, not necessarily representing anything.
00:56:47.360 --> 00:56:52.960
And I started making marks and you know, making decisions and uh basically finished out the painting like that.
00:56:53.039 --> 00:56:59.280
And uh at first I was like, I like I don't paint cliffs, like I I need something.
00:56:59.440 --> 00:57:03.920
Yeah, I rarely paint water, I need something to hang on to so I I can give some realism.
00:57:04.000 --> 00:57:05.119
And then I was like, why?
00:57:05.360 --> 00:57:08.159
Like, is it I'm trying to make a painting.
00:57:08.239 --> 00:57:12.960
I'm not trying to make uh a photo of somewhere or or even of somewhere specific or anything.
00:57:13.119 --> 00:57:16.480
I don't need reference, I can just make decisions to make a painting.
00:57:16.639 --> 00:57:19.039
It's okay if it doesn't look like a real real thing.
00:57:19.199 --> 00:57:21.199
Um, and then I was having a blast.
00:57:21.360 --> 00:57:24.960
I was having so much fun on that painting because I was free, you know.
00:57:25.119 --> 00:57:34.079
Yeah, it was I think it's interesting that you were drawn to Moran because um his paintings are the reason why we have like Yellowstone National Park and all the national parks out there.
00:57:34.239 --> 00:57:46.719
Like um, you know, they he was you know bringing up the landscape on a very sublime level, and the whole idea was save these, you know, save these sacred spaces, they're beautiful, and putting it up and you know, uh bringing it to everybody's attention.
00:57:46.800 --> 00:57:52.320
So I love that you were you were focusing on on on this well, this one artist really inspired you.
00:57:52.400 --> 00:57:57.840
And again, it's this emotive quality that I that we've been touching on that your work is very, you know, emotional.
00:57:57.920 --> 00:58:01.679
That um I you know, you didn't just pick any other random landscape.
00:58:01.760 --> 00:58:06.320
You chose Thomas Moran as as a beginning point, you know, and I just find that really interesting.
00:58:06.639 --> 00:58:10.400
Do you feel like this was a breakthrough for you, this particular painting in this particular process?
00:58:10.719 --> 00:58:11.679
Yeah, I think so.
00:58:11.840 --> 00:58:13.679
Um I think it was.
00:58:13.920 --> 00:58:18.079
Uh it's starting to feel like every single painting I do is now a breakthrough.
00:58:18.480 --> 00:58:18.880
Oh wow.
00:58:19.599 --> 00:58:20.639
That's a great place to be.
00:58:20.719 --> 00:58:20.960
Yeah.
00:58:21.199 --> 00:58:22.639
It's cool, but it's exhausting.
00:58:22.719 --> 00:58:22.880
Yeah.
00:58:23.039 --> 00:58:35.840
Um but it it came, I guess, it's after, I don't know, like, you know, and you know this very well, like it's very difficult to balance uh your art practice with parenting and yeah, we didn't even talk about that.
00:58:36.000 --> 00:58:36.320
Yes.
00:58:36.559 --> 00:58:36.800
Yeah.
00:58:36.960 --> 00:58:52.480
So it's like I mean, I feel like the past since I don't know, 2017 or something, has been like this blur of like weirdness, and I and that's hard to like lock down on on a creative process and like you know, so there's been ups and downs.
00:58:52.559 --> 00:58:59.599
Um, but now I'm starting to I feel like I'm starting to open up my mind a little bit, and uh all these uh things are coming in.
00:58:59.760 --> 00:59:04.639
I'm starting to realize, you know, things about my art or art in general.
00:59:04.719 --> 00:59:09.519
Uh and I'm just trying to, yeah, not judge, uh just um following, you know.
00:59:09.840 --> 00:59:10.480
Oh, I love it.
00:59:10.800 --> 00:59:11.280
I love it.
00:59:11.360 --> 00:59:11.679
I love it.
00:59:11.760 --> 00:59:13.840
I think that's a great place to end the podcast.
00:59:14.000 --> 00:59:15.519
This has been fantastic, David.
00:59:15.599 --> 00:59:17.199
I've really enjoyed talking to you and reconnecting.
00:59:17.679 --> 00:59:18.559
It's been a pleasure, yeah.
00:59:18.719 --> 00:59:19.840
It's been a real pleasure.
00:59:20.000 --> 00:59:21.599
Um, thank you so much.
00:59:21.760 --> 00:59:26.239
And um, you know, I look forward to seeing the work continue to develop, especially the abstraction.
00:59:26.320 --> 00:59:27.360
That's been very exciting for me.
00:59:27.679 --> 00:59:28.000
Awesome.
00:59:28.079 --> 00:59:29.039
Thank you so much, Suzanne.
00:59:29.119 --> 00:59:30.400
Yeah, it's been a pleasure.
00:59:31.280 --> 00:59:35.599
I knew David Nishita Schaeffitz was the person to talk to about intuition, NFTs, and AI.
00:59:36.239 --> 00:59:36.480
Wow.
00:59:36.719 --> 00:59:38.719
Thank you, David, for this illuminating conversation.
00:59:39.760 --> 00:59:42.559
There are so many gems in this episode that you can use in your own creative work.
00:59:43.440 --> 00:59:43.760
Here they are.
00:59:44.559 --> 00:59:47.440
David realized at one point in his career that he was at a crossroads.
00:59:48.400 --> 00:59:52.000
One that led to a traditional career in still life and one that could lead to something more unique.
00:59:52.800 --> 00:59:53.360
He chose the latter.
00:59:54.480 --> 00:59:57.440
Follow your intuition, be Twitter yourself and paint what you want to paint.
00:59:57.840 --> 00:59:59.199
Eventually someone will appreciate it.
01:00:00.400 --> 01:00:02.159
Remember that there is a market for everything.
01:00:02.480 --> 01:00:04.960
You just have to find and connect with the audience that appreciates it.
01:00:05.840 --> 01:00:10.639
A really special benefit of creating NFTs is that they allow artists to get royalties for secondary sales.
01:00:11.599 --> 01:00:15.119
Also, consider that there are people out there who have no interest in owning physical work.
01:00:15.920 --> 01:00:17.039
NFTs are the answer for them.
01:00:18.159 --> 01:00:20.719
When you're building an audience, build from low, David advises.
01:00:21.280 --> 01:00:23.280
Low cost, low startup until you are making money.
01:00:24.559 --> 01:00:32.719
Building up his audience on Twitter from zero followers took one year of constant work of posting every day, interacting with collectors, networking with other artists, and collecting their work.
01:00:33.760 --> 01:00:37.199
Being in that Twitter NFT community of artists and creators helped get his work out there.
01:00:38.480 --> 01:00:45.679
David, inspired by Kandinsky's anesthesia, began painting to music and responding to it as a way of incorporating abstraction into his working process.
01:00:46.480 --> 01:00:47.840
This is a great tip we can all try.
01:00:48.320 --> 01:00:51.679
What senses can you focus on while working that can add another dimension to your work?
01:00:52.719 --> 01:00:57.280
Lastly, David now tries to not look so much at reference anymore and just work from his intuition.
01:00:58.000 --> 01:01:00.719
This is honestly a really courageous act for a representational painter.
01:01:01.440 --> 01:01:05.119
But the reward is that it opens up totally new horizons in both his creativity and his work.
01:01:06.159 --> 01:01:07.920
I want to thank David again for coming on the podcast.
01:01:08.880 --> 01:01:10.000
I really enjoyed talking to you.
01:01:10.880 --> 01:01:14.559
For the rest of you, please check out the show notes for links on things we covered in this episode.
01:01:15.199 --> 01:01:18.719
If you have enjoyed listening to my podcast, please consider leaving me a five-star review.
01:01:19.280 --> 01:01:21.840
It helps my content rise to the top so other people can find it.
01:01:22.719 --> 01:01:30.400
Lastly, come find us on Instagram where we have a community of creative contemplation podcast followers and where I post extra exclusive content on each guest.
01:01:30.559 --> 01:01:32.559
Thank you for spending another hour of your day with me.
01:01:32.719 --> 01:01:35.280
It is truly wonderful to be able to connect with you in this way.
01:01:35.440 --> 01:01:36.639
With that, I'll sign off.
01:01:36.800 --> 01:01:38.559
Until next time, creatives,
00:00:00.239 --> 00:00:12.400
And so I started thinking about how can I kind of exercise my like urge to um create things from imagination while still doing what I like to do, which is still life painting.
00:00:12.720 --> 00:00:24.239
So that's when I started, you know, doing the fleurbals, the insects, and uh putting more strange elements, I guess, into the paintings and just exaggerating things a lot.
00:00:26.800 --> 00:00:29.199
Welcome to Creative Contemplation Podcast.
00:00:29.359 --> 00:00:32.320
I'm your host and the creator, Suzanne Lago Arthur.
00:00:32.479 --> 00:00:35.679
I'm a realist painter working in oils from Loudoun County, Virginia.
00:00:35.920 --> 00:00:38.320
And I'm fascinated with the subject of creativity.
00:00:38.479 --> 00:00:47.039
I want to know what was the spark that led creative professionals into the fields they are in, why they make the work that they do, and what can we learn from each other?
00:00:47.280 --> 00:00:49.920
Listen along as we answer these questions and more.
00:00:50.079 --> 00:00:59.280
I'll be interviewing people from all over the creative universe, artists, designers, writers, you name it, even museum experts who will give us insight into other famous creative minds.
00:00:59.520 --> 00:01:01.600
Maybe together we can find the answers.
00:01:01.840 --> 00:01:03.759
Thanks for joining us today.
00:01:12.719 --> 00:01:13.280
All right.
00:01:13.760 --> 00:01:14.640
You ready?
00:01:15.359 --> 00:01:16.879
Yeah, just go.
00:01:17.200 --> 00:01:21.920
My guest today is painter and NFT artist David Nishita Schafetz.
00:01:22.000 --> 00:01:23.120
Welcome to the podcast, David.
00:01:23.359 --> 00:01:24.319
Thank you, Suzanne.
00:01:24.400 --> 00:01:25.359
It's uh good to be here.
00:01:25.599 --> 00:01:26.799
Oh, it's great to have you.
00:01:27.040 --> 00:01:35.840
I read that you grew up in the Pacific Northwest and studied architecture at the University of Washington, and that you were inspired to do so by your grandfather's career as a landscape architect.
00:01:36.079 --> 00:01:38.640
Can you talk about this early inspiration and training?
00:01:39.040 --> 00:01:45.200
Yeah, um, yeah, my grandpa, Satoru Nishida, he was a really successful art uh landscape architect.
00:01:45.359 --> 00:01:47.120
And so I I I always admired that.
00:01:47.280 --> 00:01:56.239
You know, he was always uh very curious and into drawing and looking at drawings and all all different kinds of art.
00:01:56.400 --> 00:01:58.159
He was just very artistic.
00:01:58.400 --> 00:02:05.680
So when I was younger, I I mostly wanted to be an architect because I loved building things and and drawing.
00:02:05.840 --> 00:02:10.800
Of course, you know, Legos or whatever, but I uh just creating things and drawing.
00:02:10.879 --> 00:02:20.960
And then um when I was I think I was nine years old, we were in I had grown up on the Petitsa Peninsula, which is across the water from Seattle.
00:02:21.120 --> 00:02:45.680
So we had come into the city, um, into Seattle to University of Washington uh to see a a show, and we were walking by the architecture building, and I just remember it it was nighttime, so it was Gould Hall, which I ended up being in, but uh the the lower part of of the studio was lit up because there were students probably about to pull an all-nighter.
00:02:45.919 --> 00:02:53.280
Um and they were they were building um with um like uh balsa wood and hot glue and buildings.
00:02:53.759 --> 00:02:53.919
Yeah.
00:02:54.159 --> 00:03:01.280
Yes, really intricate structures, and that's a specific class that ended up being one of my favorites in in the architecture program.
00:03:01.360 --> 00:03:04.960
But I remember seeing that and I was like, I have to that is what I want to do.
00:03:05.120 --> 00:03:06.240
It's like so much fun.
00:03:06.479 --> 00:03:17.039
So I I think from then on I basically basically knew I wanted to do architecture and knew I wanted to do it at U D at the University of Washington.
00:03:17.280 --> 00:03:20.080
So seeing that all nighter didn't scare you off, right?
00:03:20.400 --> 00:03:20.960
Oh no.
00:03:21.039 --> 00:03:25.039
I mean, you know, I was only nine, so I was like, you know, I didn't know anything.
00:03:25.199 --> 00:03:27.360
But like I get to play with Legos all day.
00:03:27.439 --> 00:03:28.240
This is awesome.
00:03:28.560 --> 00:03:29.199
Yeah, yeah.
00:03:29.280 --> 00:03:30.719
It looked just like so much fun.
00:03:30.879 --> 00:03:35.360
Um, so and then um so I I kind of had that in my mind.
00:03:35.520 --> 00:03:41.360
And even though I felt like during like a junior high and high school, I kind of for some reason I just stopped drawing.
00:03:41.520 --> 00:03:43.120
I uh I don't know what it was.
00:03:43.199 --> 00:03:50.719
I I think part of it was like I had reached the point where I knew when there's something wrong with my drawings.
00:03:50.960 --> 00:03:58.240
I knew um when I didn't like the results or when something was off, but I didn't yet have the the technique, right?
00:03:58.479 --> 00:03:59.919
Yeah, the training to fix that.
00:04:00.479 --> 00:04:01.599
So I was just like, I don't know.
00:04:01.680 --> 00:04:05.120
I just like if I can't do a perfect, I I don't really feel like doing it, you know.
00:04:05.360 --> 00:04:06.400
I was just like, whatever.
00:04:06.560 --> 00:04:14.159
And then of course, you know, it's it's weird, uh, you know, in junior high, you know, um weird transition time and it's very confusing and and stuff.
00:04:14.240 --> 00:04:16.319
So yeah, and you're probably doing sports, right?
00:04:16.399 --> 00:04:17.040
You're like going on.
00:04:17.519 --> 00:04:18.079
Not me actually.
00:04:18.399 --> 00:04:20.959
No, I was more of like a nerdy uh quiet kid.
00:04:21.120 --> 00:04:26.319
Um yeah, so just like making it through junior high was the priority, I think.
00:04:26.480 --> 00:04:35.600
And then in um in high school, I was, I mean, like I think starting in like eighth or ninth grade, I was like, I just can't wait to finish with this to go to college.
00:04:35.839 --> 00:04:42.959
Um, and I still knew I wanted to be an architect, and I still was like, but I still I I wasn't drawing that much, but I just knew I wanted to do it.
00:04:43.120 --> 00:04:45.519
Um so uh that was my focus.
00:04:45.759 --> 00:04:47.360
And um yeah.
00:04:47.920 --> 00:04:50.079
Well, I heard two things there that I think were kind of interesting.
00:04:50.240 --> 00:04:53.839
Um the first is that um you're familiar with that book, Drawing from the Right Side of the Brain, right?
00:04:54.079 --> 00:04:55.759
It's you know, like the classic book.
00:04:55.839 --> 00:04:59.120
I think it was published in the 60s and it's had many iterations since then.
00:04:59.199 --> 00:05:01.920
And and the science has come out, it's you know, it's different.
00:05:02.079 --> 00:05:06.480
Like we know now that not everything that they talk about in the book is uh probably accurate, you know.
00:05:06.639 --> 00:05:15.680
But one of the things that they mention in the book that the author mentions, and I I can't remember her name, she talks about how children, when they're learning, you know, like you know, our first language is drawing, right?
00:05:15.839 --> 00:05:20.959
Um, you know, where it's a it's a nonverbal language, it's a pictorial language that you know children start drawing from the beginning.
00:05:21.040 --> 00:05:33.920
And then eventually they get to a point where they've realized that their drawings are not like real life and they kind of shut down, you know, and that's where like that traditional, you know, technique just for a long time hasn't been taught like at the school level, like it used to be.
00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:36.800
It used to be taught like prior to handwriting.
00:05:36.879 --> 00:05:38.160
Actually, you were taught drawing.
00:05:38.319 --> 00:05:42.639
And it was kind of um, you know, it was considered to be the bridge to cursive writing.
00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:44.000
And now we don't even do cursive.
00:05:44.079 --> 00:05:46.480
So it's interesting to see the educational system, you know.
00:05:46.639 --> 00:05:48.079
So you weren't allowed certainly.
00:05:48.160 --> 00:05:54.000
I think what you what you just said there speaks to probably everybody, you know, at least in the United States, as far as like our art education, right?
00:05:54.560 --> 00:05:59.680
And then the other thing I was thinking, I was wondering, talking about your architecture, is there anything that you've taken forward from that study?
00:05:59.759 --> 00:06:04.079
Like, do you make maquettes when you're creating, you know, your environments for your paintings?
00:06:04.160 --> 00:06:06.560
Like, is that something that you also do as part of your process?
00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:12.800
Um, no, but definitely not not maquettes, but it's definitely helped me a lot.
00:06:13.199 --> 00:06:22.319
Like uh, I mean, in architecture training in in at UW, uh, you know, the the drawing classes were very intense.
00:06:22.639 --> 00:06:33.839
Um, both technical drawing, so perspective and all that, but also, you know, um, well both like in perspective, but also like just flat like orthogonal views and stuff.
00:06:34.000 --> 00:06:38.879
Uh but uh uh thinking three-dimensionally, which I love about architecture.
00:06:39.040 --> 00:06:40.079
I just love that so much.
00:06:40.240 --> 00:06:42.480
But uh that has helped tremendously.
00:06:42.959 --> 00:06:46.240
Because you don't paint a lot of you don't paint a lot of interiors now that I think about it.
00:06:46.319 --> 00:06:54.240
When I'm I'm thinking about your work in my head, it's a lot of um they're they're not really in environments, which is kind of interesting considering your training.
00:06:54.639 --> 00:06:55.759
Yeah, usually not.
00:06:55.920 --> 00:07:10.079
Um I mean part of that is like not focusing on the background as much, especially in still life, but like everything is, you know, everything is like in a still life, everything's in perspective, no matter how close or far you are from it.
00:07:10.160 --> 00:07:30.079
So when I started uh learning how to paint, I felt like I could put more of my focus into color and um trying to figure out composition and handling of the paint and all this because my drawing skills were pretty well developed.
00:07:30.480 --> 00:07:41.199
I mean, my first painting still didn't look that great, but like the the drawing, like the proport sense of proportion and perspective was um almost instinctual at that point.
00:07:41.279 --> 00:07:41.519
Right.
00:07:41.680 --> 00:07:45.120
Um so you know, just like do making sure an ellipse looks right.
00:07:45.439 --> 00:07:49.680
I mean, you can do any sort of technique you want, but if it doesn't look right, it's not right.
00:07:49.920 --> 00:07:51.120
Right, and those ellipses.
00:07:51.600 --> 00:07:52.399
Yeah, yeah.
00:07:52.560 --> 00:07:55.360
I mean, so I knew how to know if it looked right or not.
00:07:55.519 --> 00:07:59.279
My I guess I was uh highly attuned to that, whether something looked right.
00:07:59.439 --> 00:08:02.079
So that was a huge, uh, huge benefit.
00:08:02.240 --> 00:08:13.040
And also in architecture, we we did a lot of I mean, we did a lot of freehand, but um drawing straight lines, like drawing architecturally sound things but freehand.
00:08:13.120 --> 00:08:13.279
Yeah.
00:08:13.519 --> 00:08:18.720
So I mean that skill I've as to this day, you know, it's it's so so valuable.
00:08:18.879 --> 00:08:19.040
Yeah.
00:08:19.199 --> 00:08:23.279
Um to not need the straight edge to to make sure something is straightened.
00:08:23.600 --> 00:08:24.720
Yeah, stuff like that.
00:08:24.800 --> 00:08:28.079
So what so why why did you depart from architecture?
00:08:28.160 --> 00:08:40.080
Because I feel like you and I met, I I want to say 2010, um, at a workshop, like your workshop, and uh and I remember then that you had just maybe finished the Schuler school, which we'll talk about um your education.
00:08:40.240 --> 00:08:40.720
What was it?
00:08:40.799 --> 00:08:45.200
I remember you talking a little bit about it, but what was it that led you to lead uh leave architecture?
00:08:45.759 --> 00:08:48.080
So school the training for architecture I loved.
00:08:48.159 --> 00:08:53.279
Uh it was so uh creatively open and it was intense and exciting.
00:08:53.360 --> 00:08:54.799
I I yeah, it was great.
00:08:54.879 --> 00:08:55.840
Most of it was great.
00:08:55.919 --> 00:09:06.879
Um, but even towards the end of the schooling, I was starting to get some inklings as to what or how I might react to creative constraints later, you know.
00:09:07.039 --> 00:09:14.480
So I remember I remember being in this critique, like we would do a project and and uh and then present it at the end, you know.
00:09:14.559 --> 00:09:20.159
So and then they would have um real architects or professors or whatever critique, you know.
00:09:20.720 --> 00:09:27.840
And I had made this like very fantastical thing with which would without any technical like thought.
00:09:27.919 --> 00:09:29.679
I was just like the form of it, right?
00:09:29.840 --> 00:09:36.960
You know, like one of the professors or practitioners was like, Yeah, this this would just cost too much much money.
00:09:37.120 --> 00:09:40.159
I mean, like it's um it's so impractical.
00:09:40.320 --> 00:09:40.720
Yeah.
00:09:41.039 --> 00:09:43.200
Like, so your idea is ridiculous.
00:09:43.440 --> 00:09:43.679
Right.
00:09:43.919 --> 00:09:52.000
And I remember I remember getting defensive, and I was like, well, the parameters for this project did not include a budget.
00:09:52.240 --> 00:09:55.279
So I I followed the I mean right, yeah.
00:09:55.519 --> 00:10:00.720
And I remember having this little argument with him, which is probably a probably a bad idea.
00:10:01.440 --> 00:10:06.879
Um but yeah, that was kind of like my thing, is like I I just wanted stuff to look cool.
00:10:06.960 --> 00:10:07.200
Yeah.
00:10:07.279 --> 00:10:17.279
So yeah, even if it didn't work, even if it wasn't, you know, structurally sound, if it wasn't um comfortable to be in, I was all about form over function.
00:10:18.399 --> 00:10:19.519
That's awesome.
00:10:19.840 --> 00:10:34.399
So when I so when I was in architecture practice, I don't know what I just found that it was um uh there are so many well creative constraints because you're you work on huge teams and the timelines are so long.
00:10:34.559 --> 00:10:37.759
And also like when you're a new new architect, you have to put in your time.
00:10:37.840 --> 00:10:43.120
Yeah, you have to like pay your dues by like you know, doing really I mean slogging, yeah.
00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:44.080
Horrible stuff.
00:10:44.320 --> 00:10:44.480
All right.
00:10:44.799 --> 00:11:05.200
And then yeah, but eventually I did was able to do some cool stuff, and like by the time I was thinking about leaving, I was like um, I had a little niche, uh niche of um doing like 3D modeling, working directly with the lead designers to get the 3D model up and making some decisions and CAD rendering, is that what it would have been?
00:11:05.360 --> 00:11:20.480
Yeah, um it was mostly in SketchUp, and then we would um and then we would bring it into a high back then SketchUp couldn't do this, but I don't know what it can do now, but uh um into a high-level rendering thing, and then I would take it out into Photoshop and it was a whole process, which was pretty awesome.
00:11:20.559 --> 00:11:24.080
Um, it was fun working in 3D, and but even that wasn't enough.
00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:29.039
And I tried like every size firm because I would just wanted to make sure I that I hated it.
00:11:29.600 --> 00:11:29.759
Right.
00:11:29.919 --> 00:11:32.000
After you spent that money on the education, right?
00:11:32.080 --> 00:11:32.240
Yeah.
00:11:32.639 --> 00:11:46.320
Like it's I I started in a huge firm downtown Seattle, and then I went to a one-man firm, and then I went to another large firm, and then I eventually I ended up in a mid-size firm, which was my favorite.
00:11:46.399 --> 00:11:48.399
Um, but still it just wasn't enough.
00:11:48.639 --> 00:11:51.600
But it was it it got me, I'm thankful for it.
00:11:51.679 --> 00:11:54.240
It was I I I learned a lot from it.
00:11:54.399 --> 00:12:00.480
I realized, you know, I learned that I didn't want to do architecture, and also I learned I didn't want to have a boss.
00:12:01.039 --> 00:12:04.879
I wanted to be uh kind of on my own, you know, do my own thing.
00:12:04.960 --> 00:12:05.200
Yeah.
00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:11.200
And do something that was creative, but like had instant, it could come to life instantly, basically.
00:12:11.360 --> 00:12:14.000
I wouldn't have to wait years to have something built.
00:12:14.159 --> 00:12:16.879
I would just create the thing in front of me and it would be there.
00:12:17.200 --> 00:12:19.519
So you were living in were you living in DC?
00:12:19.759 --> 00:12:24.879
Like when when you went well, when you and I met, I think you had just moved back to the West Coast.
00:12:24.960 --> 00:12:28.000
Um and I think you, I mean, obviously you went to the Schueller School of Fine Arts.
00:12:28.080 --> 00:12:30.480
So you were lit, you know, at least commuting to Baltimore.
00:12:30.559 --> 00:12:32.480
So you were in this area at at some point.
00:12:32.639 --> 00:12:34.000
Um how did that start?
00:12:34.080 --> 00:12:34.960
Why did you why there?
00:12:35.120 --> 00:12:36.080
Why'd you pick there?
00:12:36.399 --> 00:12:42.240
So um my wife uh got into grad school and she had a couple choices.
00:12:42.399 --> 00:12:49.360
It was either gonna be in Seattle or DC, and she ended up choosing one in DC, George Washington.
00:12:49.679 --> 00:12:52.080
That's my my alma mater too, my master's.
00:12:52.480 --> 00:12:52.639
Awesome.
00:12:52.799 --> 00:12:53.840
I think we probably talked about that.
00:12:54.320 --> 00:12:55.120
Yeah, I think we did.
00:12:55.279 --> 00:12:55.600
Yeah.
00:12:56.159 --> 00:13:10.240
Um, so so we knew we were going to DC, and so um I was like, I need I was also at the time that I knew I needed to switch careers, um, but but I needed training first.
00:13:10.559 --> 00:13:21.360
And um, so I actually I wanted I had I had at first wanted to do um after architecture, I w I decided I wanted to do uh comic books, um, you know, sequential art.
00:13:21.600 --> 00:13:31.600
Um so I I was so into that and uh I was um drawing a ton, but I was like, I need uh I'm lacking figure drawing.
00:13:31.759 --> 00:13:32.080
Yeah.
00:13:32.320 --> 00:13:51.759
Um so I found the I don't know how this happens, um, but this is why I was I will always uh give respect to Art Renewal Center because uh I somehow f found their website and I was looking at all the ateliers that were around the country, and there was one in Baltimore.
00:13:52.000 --> 00:13:56.159
So I was like, okay, if we go to DC, I can at least go to the one in Baltimore.
00:13:56.559 --> 00:14:02.159
That's amazing because I I grew up the DMV and I never heard of Schuler School until like much later.
00:14:02.399 --> 00:14:07.919
Yeah, which I think is so funny, but that just shows you how siloed all this education was until recently with the internet, you know?
00:14:08.320 --> 00:14:09.120
Absolutely, yeah.
00:14:09.279 --> 00:14:10.720
I I think I'm really lucky.
00:14:10.799 --> 00:14:19.679
Um so I I worked out a telecommuting situation with the firm I was at, which at the time I mean wasn't as normal, I guess.
00:14:19.840 --> 00:14:20.960
But now it's super normal.
00:14:21.120 --> 00:14:29.759
But uh so I I um got a big computer so I could was able to still do all the uh all the um 3D modeling and stuff and rendering.
00:14:30.320 --> 00:14:40.080
So yeah, during the first two years in DC, um I was working full time still, but also going to Schuler.
00:14:40.399 --> 00:14:41.600
Um so it was really weird.
00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:58.960
Um like Yeah, it was like 10 hours on Saturdays, 10 hours on Sunday, and then Monday through Friday, I would take the mark train to Baltimore, do Schuler, come back around three, get back to DC to make maybe around five, something like that.
00:14:59.360 --> 00:15:03.519
And uh we'd have dinner, and then I would work until 10.
00:15:03.759 --> 00:15:04.240
Wow.
00:15:04.399 --> 00:15:08.399
And so it was like, yeah, four hours a day and then weekends ten hours a day.
00:15:08.559 --> 00:15:11.200
Yeah, and your wife is very, very patient, apparently.
00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:12.320
Yeah, yeah.
00:15:12.480 --> 00:15:14.879
Um, I mean it was a trial for both of us, I guess.
00:15:14.960 --> 00:15:18.240
Like, you know, she because she was in law school and that was very stressful.
00:15:18.799 --> 00:15:19.120
Oh, sure.
00:15:19.200 --> 00:15:21.440
And her workload in this event, yeah, equal.
00:15:21.679 --> 00:15:21.919
Yeah.
00:15:22.240 --> 00:15:35.600
We were just like, you know, uh it was a good transformative time because we were struggling together in a very tiny, uh gross um apartment with cockroaches and uh and bed bugs.
00:15:35.679 --> 00:15:41.759
Um so that was uh uh but we made it so that I think that was uh yeah, it was all good.
00:15:41.919 --> 00:15:48.799
I mean, I I look back fondly at that time, even though it when I was in it, I was like, this is this is hard.
00:15:48.960 --> 00:15:49.120
Right.
00:15:49.360 --> 00:15:53.919
But uh but I I was still loving it um because I knew I was leading architecture.
00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:54.879
So yeah, yeah.
00:15:55.120 --> 00:15:58.000
But that particular environment was a unique environment, right?
00:15:58.080 --> 00:16:02.399
Like uh wasn't one of the founders um the guy who created Marge Medium?
00:16:02.480 --> 00:16:05.120
Like, isn't that the Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:16:05.279 --> 00:16:14.720
So yeah, so there's a direct line from um the what uh Jacques Marage through to the Shulers.
00:16:15.360 --> 00:16:27.679
Uh so that's how they paint, is they they make their own um black oil from uh cooking um now it's been so long, cooking lead and linseed oil together.
00:16:27.919 --> 00:16:29.279
Yeah, really healthy, right?
00:16:29.519 --> 00:16:41.600
Yeah, I mean they would boil boil it on the kitchen stove as but uh and then from there um you add I forget what you add, but it's maybe might be Venice turpentine or something like that.
00:16:41.840 --> 00:16:46.399
And they make this like gel-like substance, which is the marriage medium.
00:16:46.559 --> 00:17:00.879
And uh and they teach like a like a traditional uh sort of method, but it's not as like um it's not as academic or as as uh some ateliers where you see that they have to like you know do one cast drawing.
00:17:01.440 --> 00:17:08.000
I was I was wondering what that, yeah, is it as it's not as structured, so they you don't spend like that entire first year drawing from casts or that kind of thing.
00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:08.559
Right.
00:17:08.720 --> 00:17:12.640
They don't hold things back, which I love about Shuler.
00:17:12.720 --> 00:17:12.880
Yeah.
00:17:13.039 --> 00:17:26.079
Like I think in other ateliers, and I'm sure there's benefits to this, but you know, you you're only you know, monochrome charcoal for like year, a year or something, and you know, and you move on, you move up, and eventually you're painting in color.
00:17:26.240 --> 00:17:26.319
Yeah.
00:17:26.480 --> 00:17:29.039
But at the Shuler School, we got everything all at once.
00:17:29.200 --> 00:17:32.640
Um, so and I was mostly there for anatomy and figure drawing.
00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:41.519
Um, so we got that anatomy, figure drawing, um, still life painting, figure painting, um, watercolor sculpture.
00:17:41.920 --> 00:17:43.279
Uh it was awesome.
00:17:43.440 --> 00:17:44.720
I mean, we got the whole thing.
00:17:44.799 --> 00:17:48.079
Um, you did ecorchets and all of that as far as sculpture?
00:17:48.400 --> 00:17:50.079
I uh I missed that.
00:17:50.400 --> 00:17:50.960
Oh no.
00:17:51.039 --> 00:17:51.279
Yeah.
00:17:51.519 --> 00:17:55.359
I think they were uh there was you were sick about that.
00:17:55.920 --> 00:17:57.759
No, I mean there was a whole time period.
00:17:57.920 --> 00:18:04.240
I think I can't now now I can't remember really well, but I might have no, I think I I did it once.
00:18:04.400 --> 00:18:05.680
I think I did it once.
00:18:05.920 --> 00:18:19.759
Uh it's very uh dim in my mind, but not like not to the level of the echochet you see in like uh like really academic places where it's like you got every like single muscle laid on there and yeah, like everything.
00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:26.079
I the c closest I got to that was drawing at a cadaver lab with Rob Labracci, which was really pretty cool.
00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:27.920
Actually, that sounds amazing.
00:18:28.160 --> 00:18:29.200
Yeah, that was the closest.
00:18:30.640 --> 00:18:31.839
That's that's really cool.
00:18:31.920 --> 00:18:36.799
And so you you were it was all primarily from life, I would imagine that you were working the education.
00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:38.880
Yeah, um, right.
00:18:39.039 --> 00:18:46.559
And uh so like I think it was on like two days, maybe Tuesdays and Thursdays or something was the still life painting block in the morning.
00:18:46.720 --> 00:18:49.119
And at first I was like, okay, you know, this is fun.
00:18:49.279 --> 00:18:54.319
I'm just gonna this is part of the program, even though I'm here for figure, I'll just you know do this too.
00:18:54.799 --> 00:18:58.799
And uh, but then really quickly I just loved it.
00:18:58.960 --> 00:19:02.720
Um, but still during the first year I still thought I was gonna eat comic books.
00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:03.119
Yeah.
00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:04.799
Um yeah, where did that come from?
00:19:04.960 --> 00:19:05.920
Let's talk about that for a second.
00:19:06.079 --> 00:19:11.279
Were you are you a big fan of manga, like anything like that, or just traditional comics?
00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:27.119
Both, both a little bit uh mostly just American uh comics, but um I mean that stemmed from like when I was a teenager, um um like X-Men and um stuff like that in the 90s.
00:19:27.279 --> 00:19:31.200
Uh I used to go to the comic book conventions, I was there with you as far as the nerd.
00:19:32.000 --> 00:19:34.640
And then I'd walk in and I would like automatically get a prize.
00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:36.640
And every single time I'd get a prize.
00:19:36.720 --> 00:19:47.200
And I was like, wow, I'm so lucky, and just figured out it's because I'm the only female, like probably they were just giving it to me, you know, and so I could go and trade that in and get whatever comic book I wanted, it happened.
00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:49.359
Well, yeah, that makes sense.
00:19:49.440 --> 00:19:50.480
It's a lot different now.
00:19:50.559 --> 00:19:54.000
I think I think there's more you know of every everyone likes comics.
00:19:54.559 --> 00:20:00.079
Yes, yes, and the cosplay and everything, like that wasn't going on when I was awesome.
00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:14.400
Yeah, I remember I went to when I was at Schuler, I went to the Baltimore Comic Con and I gave I took my um portfolio up to a group of Marvel editors or something.
00:20:14.640 --> 00:20:15.599
Oh wow, uh-huh.
00:20:15.759 --> 00:20:19.359
Yeah, and um and you know, got rejected.
00:20:19.440 --> 00:20:25.599
But I was very it was like super encouraging because he was he was flipping through and I was like, Oh, oh cool, yeah, keep up, keep it up, you know.
00:20:25.839 --> 00:20:29.920
Keep up the and I was like, okay, cool, we're we're just gonna keep trying.
00:20:30.079 --> 00:20:45.359
Uh so I ended up doing, you know, other submissions and stuff online and for web comics and also real comics and stuff, and starting to get my toe in the water a little bit, but like uh around that time I also started to sell my paintings.
00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:51.599
So um Schuler has like two shows a year where her students can try to sell their work.
00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:56.480
Um, and when I was selling my paintings, and then I was like, this is really cool.
00:20:56.640 --> 00:21:02.240
Like, I mean, comic book industry is extremely like uh grueling.
00:21:02.319 --> 00:21:10.880
I mean it's it's very difficult and it's almost easier to be uh to be an oil painter, but also I was I was like, this is really fun.
00:21:11.039 --> 00:21:22.079
Like you know, in the comic books, you're still gonna have probably some sort of boss or editor, or even if you know, you're beholden to somebody, um, unless you're completely on your own.
00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:24.000
Um, but that's probably very difficult.
00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:31.359
But uh I was I just started to enjoy the painting so much and the the immediacy and the independence of it.
00:21:31.519 --> 00:21:47.440
And then um Carol, one of my teachers at Schuler, she she introduced me to um two galleries um in the region, and uh and then I started to get my paintings into there and started to sell, and I was like, this is this is what actually what I want to do.
00:21:47.599 --> 00:21:49.119
I want to I want to paint.
00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:49.920
This is amazing.
00:21:50.160 --> 00:21:50.640
That's awesome.
00:21:50.720 --> 00:21:51.839
What what galleries were those?
00:21:51.920 --> 00:21:52.480
I'm curious.
00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:59.759
Uh one I won't say the name because I ended up uh thinking they were not good, and I left.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:01.680
Yeah we were in DC.
00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:06.480
But the other was um Carmen's Gallery at Solomon's Island, um Maryland.
00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:07.839
And she's awesome.
00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:08.960
She's totally awesome.
00:22:09.119 --> 00:22:15.680
Um that gave me my first like solo show, and um it was a great place uh to start out in.
00:22:15.839 --> 00:22:19.200
So um I had a really good experience with her and that gallery.
00:22:19.519 --> 00:22:20.319
Oh, fantastic.
00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:21.039
That's great.
00:22:21.279 --> 00:22:22.240
Were you always?
00:22:22.400 --> 00:22:29.440
I want to say this carefully, because you were you were um taught in a very traditional environment at Schuler, right?
00:22:29.519 --> 00:22:30.799
Your your painting from life.
00:22:30.960 --> 00:22:35.599
And then at what point did you allow, did you give yourself permission to start blending these worlds together?
00:22:35.759 --> 00:22:42.160
Like the comic book kind of like I I remember those like insects coming into the still lives, like kind of early on.
00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:44.559
Was that like like right around this time?
00:22:44.640 --> 00:22:46.880
Like you're talking about your solo show there at Solomon Island.
00:22:46.960 --> 00:22:48.160
Were you doing that already then?
00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:59.440
I think I started um doing more like that weird stuff, uh, with the insects and everything, and like just more uh imaginative stuff around 2013.
00:22:59.920 --> 00:23:02.240
Um yeah, during that year.
00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:07.920
I think like I was really developing my skills as a uh painter and a still life painter.
00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:09.920
And you know, I take in a couple workshops.
00:23:10.079 --> 00:23:13.680
I did a uh I got to do a La Felle workshop.
00:23:13.920 --> 00:23:14.799
Yeah, I can see that.
00:23:14.880 --> 00:23:16.880
I can see a little influencer, yeah.
00:23:17.200 --> 00:23:21.839
Yeah, and Jeff Legg workshop and um Scott Powers.
00:23:22.319 --> 00:23:32.000
Uh yeah, there's so I had a couple workshops and I and to continue the education after Schuler and um I think there was a point where there was a path.
00:23:32.079 --> 00:23:57.519
You know, I could have taken the path down the more traditional still life route and just kept on refining my skills and developing them in that way and into you know, more in like Midwest, Southwest galleries and stuff like that, or just veer off into whatever, and I just veered off because I was like, I I don't think I well, I needed um something that was going to sustain my interest.
00:23:57.680 --> 00:23:59.759
Like I I needed to be excited about it.
00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:11.279
And so I started thinking about how can I kind of exercise my like urge to um create things from imagination while still doing what I like to do, which is still life painting.
00:24:11.440 --> 00:24:22.400
Um so that's when I started, you know, doing the flerballs, the insects, and uh putting more strange elements, I guess, into the paintings and just exaggerating things a lot.
00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:29.599
Like uh, you know, LaFelle and Jeff Legg, they're they have a beautiful sense of light and they just like you know, they make things.
00:24:29.759 --> 00:24:30.480
Yeah, yeah.
00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:34.799
And they glow, glow things, and it's so much drama.
00:24:35.119 --> 00:24:38.480
And I I just wanted to push that as far as I could go.
00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:39.039
Yeah.
00:24:39.359 --> 00:24:43.119
Did you find your audience did your audience change when you took that departure?
00:24:43.440 --> 00:24:45.839
Um, there was uh I think so.
00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:53.839
Well, there was mostly like crickets uh for the beginning portion, which now after these years, I'm like, this is what just this is just how it is.
00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:54.240
Yeah.
00:24:54.400 --> 00:24:57.519
Like you have to take take them along for the ride.
00:24:57.680 --> 00:25:03.839
And once they see that that's something consistent that comes out of you, they start to understand and they start to get into it too.
00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:05.119
It's just a matter of time.
00:25:05.279 --> 00:25:05.519
Yes.
00:25:05.759 --> 00:25:20.079
So, like, yeah, in 2013 when I started doing the insects, and they um, you know, it was like none of them were selling, but those were the paintings that um uh Dave Etheridge at uh Gallery 1261 really liked, and that's uh how I got into that gallery.
00:25:20.240 --> 00:25:29.839
And so it's like you know, if you just follow your intuition, yeah, follow your intuition, follow your um be true to yourself and just keep on doing what you need to paint do.
00:25:30.079 --> 00:25:32.240
Eventually someone's going to appreciate it.
00:25:32.559 --> 00:25:34.559
Oh, I hope everybody listening takes that away.
00:25:34.640 --> 00:25:36.960
That there's a market for absolutely everybody, you know.
00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:38.000
That's that's wonderful.
00:25:38.319 --> 00:25:39.119
Yeah, that's great.
00:25:39.279 --> 00:25:47.759
And and clearly, you know, um, this interest in the in the merging of these two worlds kind of opened you up to different worlds, which I'd like to talk about now.
00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:51.759
Um you have been doing NFTs um for a while.
00:25:51.839 --> 00:25:54.480
Uh, can we talk about how you got involved in that?
00:25:54.640 --> 00:25:56.559
And, you know, first of all, what is that?
00:25:56.720 --> 00:25:58.640
And you know, what's the whole thing around it?
00:25:58.720 --> 00:26:03.839
It, you know, I from what I understand, there's like prohibitive costs for artists getting into it, there's minting, etc.
00:26:04.079 --> 00:26:05.119
Maybe you can talk about that.
00:26:05.440 --> 00:26:06.079
Sure, yeah.
00:26:06.240 --> 00:26:10.640
Um, so let's see, in uh early 2021.
00:26:11.680 --> 00:26:12.559
I pretty sure.
00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:16.079
Yeah, that was when the famous Beeple sale was, right?
00:26:16.240 --> 00:26:16.480
Yeah.
00:26:16.880 --> 00:26:18.480
69 million or something.
00:26:19.119 --> 00:26:20.960
So you know, it was all over.
00:26:21.200 --> 00:26:23.039
And uh I was like, what's this?
00:26:23.119 --> 00:26:24.240
This is interesting.
00:26:25.119 --> 00:26:34.160
And uh um, so I was curious because in 2017 I had dabbled in crypto um when Bitcoin was like going to the moon.
00:26:34.319 --> 00:26:34.559
Yeah.
00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:38.720
And uh I was like, this is this is crazy, this is some crazy technology.
00:26:38.799 --> 00:26:43.759
And I started doing even a little with trading in crypto and the altcoins and all this stuff.
00:26:43.839 --> 00:26:46.799
It was kind of a an obsessive weird thing for a couple of months.
00:26:47.920 --> 00:26:52.240
Um but eventually I I found I didn't have the stomach for that.
00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:55.039
Like uh that was just yeah too much to deal with.
00:26:55.119 --> 00:26:57.839
But so I kind of like just you know stopped thinking about it.
00:26:57.920 --> 00:27:01.839
And then in when the NFTs came out, I was like, this is really interesting.
00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:15.440
And then on Instagram I saw um the artist um Sergei Marchenikov, um amazing um figure figure painter, um was uh minting his paintings as NFTs.
00:27:15.920 --> 00:27:24.079
And I was like, oh, like you can you can do that as like like a like a is there a market for fine artists to do that?
00:27:24.240 --> 00:27:31.279
And so I kind of watched his progress and then um I think probably some other people were you know started to do it too.
00:27:31.440 --> 00:27:33.920
And I was I was like, this is this is really cool.
00:27:34.000 --> 00:27:41.920
I think I need to try this, you know, because I do think it's um I love the idea of artists getting royalties for secondary sales.
00:27:42.079 --> 00:27:42.480
Uh-huh.
00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:43.759
That's that's amazing.
00:27:43.839 --> 00:27:44.079
Yeah.
00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:49.440
And um, and also it's a totally new um I mean it's a new product.
00:27:49.599 --> 00:27:54.000
It's like uh like I've got paintings, got prints.
00:27:54.319 --> 00:28:01.359
This is a new product for a new audience because there are lots of people who connect NFTs that have no interest in physical works.
00:28:01.519 --> 00:28:01.839
Right.
00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:06.880
Um, or have never owned physical works or collected them, or don't have the money to collect them.
00:28:07.279 --> 00:28:10.240
Um so I just thought it was important to try it out for myself.
00:28:10.400 --> 00:28:10.640
Yeah.
00:28:10.880 --> 00:28:12.559
Um so what did you find?
00:28:12.640 --> 00:28:13.440
What's the verdict?
00:28:13.680 --> 00:28:15.200
Uh well I I think it's great.
00:28:15.279 --> 00:28:17.279
I uh I started it on Ethereum.
00:28:17.440 --> 00:28:26.880
Um, and uh but yes, the costs were I mean it's gas, which which is like how the transaction occurs, or um basically you have to pay a fee.
00:28:27.039 --> 00:28:32.880
Um but that was so expensive to just just do anything to make anything work, it's much better now.
00:28:33.119 --> 00:28:33.279
Okay.
00:28:33.599 --> 00:28:44.960
Um but during that time, like when I first I I minted my very first work and it sold for half an ETH, which at the I at the time That's pretty good, right?
00:28:45.279 --> 00:28:45.839
Was good money.
00:28:45.920 --> 00:28:46.960
Yeah, when I was getting money.
00:28:47.200 --> 00:28:48.799
Yeah, and so I was like, this is easy.
00:28:48.880 --> 00:28:50.400
Yeah, this is great.
00:28:50.559 --> 00:28:56.400
And then I quickly realized that you know, people are eager to buy the Genesis piece, which is the first piece.
00:28:56.559 --> 00:28:59.039
Oh, that's and also the market was really hot.
00:28:59.200 --> 00:29:08.319
Yeah, after that I was like, oh, this actually takes a lot of work to to market and sell because it's totally different from Instagram audience, you know?
00:29:09.599 --> 00:29:11.119
So you had to be on Twitter.
00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:22.480
So that's when I I took my abandoned Twitter account, which had zero followers, and I had to build from zero, yeah, and um and start to get a following there for my NFTs.
00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:22.880
Yeah.
00:29:23.039 --> 00:29:29.839
Um, but Ethereum was too expensive, so I found Tezos blockchain, which everything was costing pennies to do.
00:29:30.079 --> 00:29:41.200
Um, and I was like, this is perfect for me because just like in painting, I needed to build from low, you know, like lower prices, lower costs, and then build an audience gradually and then take them with me.
00:29:41.680 --> 00:29:43.759
Um and how long do you think that took?
00:29:43.839 --> 00:29:45.680
Like that process of building your audience?
00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:46.480
A year.
00:29:47.200 --> 00:29:49.920
I mean, yeah, of and that's consistent work.
00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:53.039
Like um that's like every day posting, like every day.
00:29:53.759 --> 00:29:58.799
Yeah, every day, pretty much being on Twitter and like interacting with collectors and collecting.
00:29:59.039 --> 00:29:59.839
That was a big part.
00:29:59.920 --> 00:30:04.400
Like on Tezos is really special because all these artists are together, we're all collecting each other's work.
00:30:04.640 --> 00:30:05.200
Oh, that's cool.
00:30:05.359 --> 00:30:06.480
It's it's so much fun.
00:30:06.640 --> 00:30:15.039
And I was like, this is the first time I've ever really I've done artist trades in the past, stuff like that, but this is the first time I've I'd ever really collected art.
00:30:15.519 --> 00:30:16.400
Oh, that's really neat.
00:30:16.559 --> 00:30:18.400
Yeah, yeah, that hadn't even occurred to me.
00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:18.799
Uh-huh.
00:30:19.039 --> 00:30:19.279
Yeah.
00:30:19.440 --> 00:30:21.759
It's so that was one of the best parts of it.
00:30:21.839 --> 00:30:24.480
Like, I was like, I get to own this art in a way.
00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:27.279
I mean, it's yes, it's digital, you know, it's a different thing.
00:30:27.440 --> 00:30:29.359
But like in a way, I'm owning this art.
00:30:29.519 --> 00:30:37.519
I'm supporting the artist that I really like, and also being in that community gets my work out there and NFT collectors see it.
00:30:37.599 --> 00:30:38.799
And oh, that's awesome.
00:30:38.960 --> 00:30:39.440
That's awesome.
00:30:39.599 --> 00:30:40.799
Yeah, it's it's really great.
00:30:40.960 --> 00:30:45.680
Um, so so you don't think the bubble has burst on that as far as yeah, like it's still moving?
00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:52.240
I think um maybe like well, like there it was hot, and I think now it's come down to a baseline where this is normal.
00:30:52.400 --> 00:30:53.200
This is the new normal.
00:30:53.519 --> 00:30:54.240
Right, right, right, right.
00:30:54.480 --> 00:30:57.359
And so it's fine, but like the market is much slower now.
00:30:57.759 --> 00:31:03.839
But I found that just like anything in life, the people who make it are just they just keep going.
00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:10.000
They just keep working hard and they keep uh putting their stuff out there and you know, trying their best and trying new things.
00:31:10.160 --> 00:31:10.480
Yeah.
00:31:10.640 --> 00:31:12.559
And so um it's still going.
00:31:12.799 --> 00:31:22.000
We should probably clarify that what you're doing is totally different than all that spam that we artists are constantly getting on Instagram now, like, you know, can I get an NFT of this?
00:31:22.160 --> 00:31:26.880
Can I, you know, and you know, when that first started coming on, I was like, oh, maybe this is legit.
00:31:26.960 --> 00:31:30.240
And then I had to Google and you know, find out, no, it's not legit at all.
00:31:30.319 --> 00:31:30.799
So, you know.
00:31:31.039 --> 00:31:32.720
Yeah, just for any artists, yeah.
00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:36.799
If you ever receive a message that says anything about NFTs, it's a scam.
00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:37.680
Exactly.
00:31:39.359 --> 00:31:41.119
If you don't know that now, now you know.
00:31:41.759 --> 00:31:42.240
Yeah.
00:31:42.480 --> 00:31:42.720
Yeah.
00:31:42.880 --> 00:31:49.920
I'm glad I'm glad we said that because I'm sure there's a lot of people probably, you know, that are still dealing with it and not understanding how to deal with it, you know.
00:31:50.000 --> 00:31:51.200
So oh yeah, yeah.
00:31:51.279 --> 00:31:54.319
Um, but it's still, you know, early days, so it's not too late.
00:31:54.559 --> 00:31:55.279
Oh, good to know.
00:31:55.519 --> 00:31:55.680
Yeah.
00:31:55.839 --> 00:31:56.000
Yeah.
00:31:56.079 --> 00:32:03.440
If you want to enter it, just just start and just you start learning slowly and experimenting and well, trial, trial and error.
00:32:03.680 --> 00:32:12.400
Yeah, this is a great segue now to AI, because I also noticed that's something you've been, I mean, you know, dabbling in, and then it's become part of your process, which I love.
00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:18.559
Uh so do you want to talk about that and the benefits of AI as far as like creating your own reference, etc.?
00:32:18.960 --> 00:32:19.680
Yeah, totally.
00:32:19.839 --> 00:32:27.759
Um, so yeah, I started uh I mean, I think uh AI um caused a visceral reaction in me, and I think it does to everybody.
00:32:28.319 --> 00:32:33.680
Uh the first time I saw I heard of AI art and saw it, and I was like, come on, what is this?
00:32:33.759 --> 00:32:36.400
This is uh low effort art, you know.
00:32:36.640 --> 00:32:36.960
Right.
00:32:37.200 --> 00:32:42.559
Um, but pretty quickly I started to see like some amazing AI artists.
00:32:42.640 --> 00:32:44.480
Like I I didn't know what they were doing.
00:32:44.559 --> 00:32:49.279
Like this is crazy technology, and their art was great.
00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:51.119
I mean, like objectively.
00:32:51.359 --> 00:32:59.440
So um I started to be curious about it, and but I wanted to um still use I wanted it to still be me.
00:32:59.599 --> 00:33:18.000
So what I did is I I uh I started using this app uh this program on online through the browser called Runway ML, and I was able to upload hundreds of my paintings and then like create an AI model that would then generate little outputs um in really low res.
00:33:18.319 --> 00:33:20.160
And let me stop you there for one second.
00:33:20.400 --> 00:33:22.400
So you uploaded your own content.
00:33:22.640 --> 00:33:26.319
Does that stay with you or is the is it available to everybody else?
00:33:26.640 --> 00:33:28.799
No, that's just private, my own private model.
00:33:28.960 --> 00:33:29.440
Fantastic.
00:33:29.599 --> 00:33:33.440
Um yeah, it's good for people to know because people probably have that concern, you know.
00:33:33.839 --> 00:33:35.119
Yeah, I can see that.
00:33:35.279 --> 00:33:38.240
I have the kind of the opposite view, but uh we'll go into that later.
00:33:38.319 --> 00:33:42.400
But anyway, I I uh I yeah, so it was cool.
00:33:42.559 --> 00:33:46.000
So like I was able to do these get these weird outputs.
00:33:46.079 --> 00:33:52.480
They're ugly, they're terri terrible looking, but um, because runway ML, I don't know how it is now, but at the time it was pretty elementary.
00:33:52.559 --> 00:34:00.559
I mean it it's the outputs were like low, like really low pixels, like I don't know, like maybe 300 by 300 pixels.
00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:02.880
I mean it was like yeah, real really low res.
00:34:03.039 --> 00:34:03.200
Right.
00:34:03.359 --> 00:34:05.839
And they and they most of them look like garbage.
00:34:05.920 --> 00:34:10.239
But you go through hundreds of them and you start to find ones, oh that's kind of interesting, interesting, interesting.
00:34:10.559 --> 00:34:18.000
And then I would meld, I would like collage together in Photoshop like four or five of them and mess with it and then make an artwork out of it.
00:34:18.079 --> 00:34:18.400
Oh, yeah.
00:34:18.400 --> 00:34:22.400
And I started to sell those and people liked them, and I was like, this is really fun.
00:34:22.559 --> 00:34:26.000
So I kept on going with that um 2021.
00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:33.760
And then eventually um AI, you know, more advanced ones like Mid Journey came out, really sophisticated results.
00:34:33.920 --> 00:34:43.199
And I I mean, when I first saw people using Mid Journey, I was like, this is some of these outputs are so beautiful you can't you can't say it's not beautiful.
00:34:43.360 --> 00:34:44.800
I mean, it was just so good.
00:34:45.119 --> 00:34:47.199
Some of them were still bad, but some of them were good.
00:34:47.280 --> 00:34:52.880
And and so I started using Midjourney and experimenting with that and getting more sophisticated results.
00:34:53.039 --> 00:35:01.440
Um and now, yeah, now what I've been doing lately with with AI is um blending my paintings together.
00:35:01.679 --> 00:35:02.000
Yeah.
00:35:02.239 --> 00:35:08.880
Um so kind of in the same way I was doing before, like based on my own paintings, but now I'm just taking there's like a function in Midjourney called blend.
00:35:09.119 --> 00:35:20.960
I'm like taking my own paintings and blending them together, getting outputs, and then working from that, like um collaging or uh and photoshopping or even digitally painting on top of it, or you know, just experimenting.
00:35:21.199 --> 00:35:28.079
Um, but yeah, like you're um talking about with reference, um, it has become an amazing tool for yeah.
00:35:28.400 --> 00:35:31.360
That's one and I think that's exactly the word is tool, right?
00:35:31.599 --> 00:35:41.599
Um I think in our community, as far as realism, uh, you know, maybe it's just maybe it's just a small little segment of realists that, you know, believe you can't be working at all from photographs, you know.
00:35:41.679 --> 00:35:43.760
Like I can't believe that that's still even an argument.
00:35:43.920 --> 00:35:45.679
You know, there's there's that uh who is it?
00:35:45.760 --> 00:35:49.599
Um I think George Lucas said that we we all live in cages of our own design.
00:35:49.760 --> 00:35:50.320
You know what I mean?
00:35:50.400 --> 00:35:51.440
And that's literally what it is.
00:35:51.519 --> 00:35:54.639
You're setting up these parameters that nobody else is following, you know.
00:35:54.800 --> 00:35:55.599
So I don't know.
00:35:55.679 --> 00:36:00.800
I kind of think of like that mentality, you know, I understand like I work predominantly from observation.
00:36:00.960 --> 00:36:05.679
I love that, but I'm not anti at all bringing photography in at some point of the process, you know.
00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:12.639
And so to not look at AI as just another tool is I think you're really handicapping yourself and the and the possibility of it.
00:36:12.800 --> 00:36:14.960
Um are you familiar with the artist Andu?
00:36:15.199 --> 00:36:16.719
I I want to say A N-D-U.
00:36:17.039 --> 00:36:17.760
He's on Instagram.
00:36:17.840 --> 00:36:22.159
He does all those like AI, like waterhouse, like on steroids paintings.
00:36:22.960 --> 00:36:25.199
I would I'll send you the link if you haven't seen it.
00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:26.400
It's amazing stuff.
00:36:26.559 --> 00:36:37.840
And then he has these really great articles, like like his writings about AI and why every artist should be using AI and talking about like, you know, kind of educating people about the misconceptions of AI.
00:36:38.079 --> 00:36:38.880
Uh really great.
00:36:38.960 --> 00:36:40.800
I'll I'll put those in the show links as well.
00:36:40.880 --> 00:36:42.320
Um, I think he has a Patreon account.
00:36:42.480 --> 00:37:00.719
But um he basically said that, you know, uh I'm gonna paraphrase this, but he said uh in one of his posts that if artists aren't using AI, you know, like for instance, like I think he brings up this example that if you, you know, let's say you want to do a painting of a circus from a certain vantage point, like you're the acrobat in the air looking down on an elephant.
00:37:00.800 --> 00:37:06.000
And he's like uh something to the effect of, you know, good luck getting that elephant to pose exactly in that position, right?
00:37:06.320 --> 00:37:09.519
But with AI, you can, you know, you can manipulate and do everything.
00:37:09.599 --> 00:37:14.239
You know, if you want to do a painting, you know, in ancient Roman times in the Coliseum, you have that automatically, you know.
00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:17.119
So that just opens up the world tremendously, right?
00:37:17.199 --> 00:37:21.519
For an artist to start thinking creatively and start doing something totally different, you know?
00:37:21.679 --> 00:37:24.400
Um and I find that really, really exciting.
00:37:24.559 --> 00:37:27.840
I have yet to, you know, dip my toe into it, but I definitely want to.
00:37:27.920 --> 00:37:30.320
Um, so that was one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you about it today.
00:37:30.559 --> 00:37:31.280
Yeah, that's awesome.
00:37:31.360 --> 00:37:33.679
I totally agree with that sentiment.
00:37:33.760 --> 00:37:43.920
Um, I mean, in a way, like ideally, you know, if I'm going to use photographs or I need to use photographs, I would like to take my own photograph because I don't want to use someone else's photographs because it feels weird.
00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:46.079
Like it feels like I never saw the original thing.
00:37:46.159 --> 00:37:46.559
Yes, yes.
00:37:46.800 --> 00:37:48.000
I don't have ownership of it.
00:37:48.079 --> 00:37:59.440
And yeah, but like you said, like if there's something ridiculous that I don't have access to, whether it's like some like um um maybe like the Grand Canyon or something, I can't travel there right now.
00:37:59.599 --> 00:37:59.840
Right.
00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:04.639
Or or like, you know, a dragon in space, you know, or something something you don't know.
00:38:04.800 --> 00:38:05.599
Which I've never seen.
00:38:05.840 --> 00:38:08.320
Which I've never seen and I don't have access to.
00:38:08.559 --> 00:38:13.360
So but now there's an another layer of artistic input.
00:38:13.519 --> 00:38:16.880
So it's almost more the artist's thing.
00:38:17.039 --> 00:38:31.760
Yeah, it's like if I'm like, I'm gonna generate a landscape with AI using my own prompts and my own curation and that whole process, then use that as a reference for my painting, and it'll look totally different, probably in the painting.
00:38:31.920 --> 00:38:35.920
Yeah, it's like there's even more layers of creativity, like composition, yeah.
00:38:36.159 --> 00:38:39.440
Yeah, it's it's such an exciting you're literally composing it.
00:38:40.079 --> 00:38:40.400
Yeah.
00:38:40.639 --> 00:38:41.760
Oh, that's so exciting.
00:38:42.079 --> 00:38:43.119
That's really, really interesting.
00:38:43.280 --> 00:38:45.119
Is there any like is there any downfall?
00:38:45.199 --> 00:38:50.320
Is there any like inherent pitfall to it that you see that you think people should be aware of or not really?
00:38:50.639 --> 00:38:52.719
Um, I mean, pitfalls.
00:38:52.880 --> 00:39:01.679
I don't I don't know about that, but you know, maybe just like uh any reference, like being too attached to a reference is always the a big issue.
00:39:02.159 --> 00:39:08.559
Like it in life, it's a little easier, or from life is a little easier to not be attached to the reference for some reason.
00:39:08.880 --> 00:39:09.280
Yes.
00:39:09.519 --> 00:39:12.079
And how do you get away from how do you get away from that?
00:39:12.320 --> 00:39:14.320
You you have multiple references, right?
00:39:14.480 --> 00:39:14.960
Yeah, yeah.
00:39:15.280 --> 00:39:20.960
Yeah, multiple references, but also like I remember when I started using photography, I was like, this is hard.
00:39:21.119 --> 00:39:24.639
Like I for some reason I can't paint from a photo, it's just too hard.
00:39:24.719 --> 00:39:32.880
And I realized it was because like you get locked in and yeah, and you're not treating it like a dynamic thing that's changing and like alive.
00:39:33.199 --> 00:39:35.280
And so you're just like you're boxed in.
00:39:35.519 --> 00:39:40.800
But then when I started to work from photographs more, I was like, okay, no, I'm gonna this is just a tool.
00:39:40.880 --> 00:39:42.960
I just need to, it's like an inspiration.
00:39:43.119 --> 00:39:48.639
I just need to paint freely and not follow the reference, just using it when I need it.
00:39:48.800 --> 00:39:55.760
Um, it's the same thing with AI references, like uh you can't be married to it, it's just a tool, a starting place.
00:39:56.079 --> 00:39:57.280
Um, so yeah.
00:39:57.599 --> 00:40:01.280
Yeah, I that just came to mind, like uh being in life drawn classes.
00:40:01.360 --> 00:40:11.599
And you know, I think probably with an older set of people, um, they would go up, take a photograph of the model that's standing right in front of them, and then go back to their place and just paint from the photograph, you know.
00:40:11.840 --> 00:40:12.559
I've seen that, yeah.
00:40:12.719 --> 00:40:14.800
Yeah, and I I get it, you know, I get it.
00:40:14.880 --> 00:40:17.760
Like I I'll get it more as I get older, you know, probably.
00:40:17.920 --> 00:40:28.239
But just the idea of it that the model is like right in front of you, real life, you know, it's like all of us with our phones that we can't put down, you know, like real life is happening all around us and we're all on our phones looking at it, you know.
00:40:28.480 --> 00:40:31.760
Um yeah, that's there is definitely, you know, a danger with that.
00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:35.280
Um you are now seguing into abstraction.
00:40:35.519 --> 00:40:42.400
So what I'm sensing from you is that you're you've always been very in tune with your intuition and listening to that and allowing yourself the growth.
00:40:42.480 --> 00:40:47.039
Um now you're moving into abstraction, which is really interesting seeing that uh in your work.
00:40:47.119 --> 00:40:52.639
Um and you did a post recently or in your newsletter, because I subscribed to that, that um your grandmother, right?
00:40:52.800 --> 00:40:56.239
Your grandmother wasn't she an abstract artist, or at least some point was doing that.
00:40:56.400 --> 00:40:59.679
Um tell us about her work and and and this interest of yours.
00:40:59.920 --> 00:41:00.239
Yeah.
00:41:00.400 --> 00:41:04.639
Um, so when I was growing up, I didn't really see her that much.
00:41:04.800 --> 00:41:07.920
Um she was a little bit estranged, unfortunately.
00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:13.360
Um is this the Nishita or the on my dad's side, so the shape it's side.
00:41:13.440 --> 00:41:14.880
Um her last name was Tucker.
00:41:15.360 --> 00:41:18.960
But uh yeah, so but I knew, you know, she was an artist.
00:41:19.199 --> 00:41:24.639
And um later, it wasn't until I was in gosh, I don't know.
00:41:24.800 --> 00:41:33.039
I was already I didn't see this abstract painting, this really big, nice abstract painting of hers, until I was already painting it myself.
00:41:33.599 --> 00:41:36.719
Uh or like I was doing still life and all this stuff.
00:41:37.199 --> 00:41:44.239
But at the time that I saw it, and at that time it was in my parents' apartment, I thought it was really cool.
00:41:44.480 --> 00:41:48.079
But I didn't I didn't feel it, like I didn't really understand it.
00:41:48.159 --> 00:41:59.440
I was still kind of in my um more rigid um mode of like realism is the thing, and absolutely sucks, yeah.
00:41:59.679 --> 00:41:59.920
Right.
00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:02.639
So yeah, those are people that can't draw, right?
00:42:02.880 --> 00:42:05.679
But like I was like, this isn't my that's not my bag, you know.
00:42:05.760 --> 00:42:08.000
I right I'm trying to represent something for sure.
00:42:08.239 --> 00:42:09.440
Right, right, right, right.
00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:14.880
But you know, she she was, I mean, now I look back and I was like, this is amazing.
00:42:15.039 --> 00:42:28.079
Like she was painting that at a time when, like, I mean, in the I think in the Bay Area and stuff like that, there was like movement of like yes, yeah, um, abstract like expressionism and stuff like that.
00:42:28.159 --> 00:42:34.000
And it was, I mean, she was in there like like really um at that same time, and so I think that's amazing.
00:42:34.239 --> 00:42:35.679
Yeah, that is amazing, yeah.
00:42:35.840 --> 00:42:38.480
Yeah, and she she could do realism as well.
00:42:38.639 --> 00:42:46.000
Um I've seen her drawings and stuff, and I have kind of some like kind of impressionistic drawings of hers.
00:42:46.079 --> 00:42:46.800
Um interesting.
00:42:46.880 --> 00:42:55.280
Was it kind of Bay Area School kind of looking stuff or I I don't know how to how to judge that, you know?
00:42:55.679 --> 00:43:00.000
Um but I I wish, you know, I wish I could go back, you know.
00:43:00.159 --> 00:43:14.239
I mean, she passed away years ago, but I wish I could go back and connect with her and like ask her questions about this because it's like now as I'm starting to get interested in abstract painting, like, oh my god, like I I have so many questions.
00:43:14.480 --> 00:43:16.079
Yeah, so how are you arriving at that?
00:43:16.159 --> 00:43:18.880
Because I I too am interested in abstraction.
00:43:19.039 --> 00:43:29.920
Um it's it's you know, I think it's probably a pretty typical thing for realist artists to, you know, you you're very, very tight in the beginning and then eventually you start seeing the beauty in in you know all of it, right?
00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:33.280
And I I very much see representational work as being on a spectrum.
00:43:33.360 --> 00:43:37.519
On one end you have the very tight realism, and on the other end you have total abstraction, right?
00:43:37.840 --> 00:43:42.320
So as artists, we get to figure out exactly where on that spectrum we want to land, you know.
00:43:42.480 --> 00:43:45.599
And um, I've been, you know, trying to embrace more abstraction.
00:43:45.679 --> 00:43:52.000
And for me, that that starting point for me is uh just not finishing things as far as I used to.
00:43:52.480 --> 00:43:59.679
Because it's interesting because you know, early on, what made me me, you know, as a painter, I would just like kind of cover that up and try to bring.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:01.679
To full, you know, rendering.
00:44:02.239 --> 00:44:09.599
Whereas now that's what's the most interesting to me is, you know, just when I just don't take it as far, when it's just like a barely implied, you know.
00:44:09.679 --> 00:44:13.840
And I love allowing glimpses of that in the painting, different stages of finish.
00:44:14.159 --> 00:44:15.599
That really, really excites me.
00:44:15.760 --> 00:44:20.000
Um, so I'm wondering what is the the the jumping off point for you in your abstraction?
00:44:20.559 --> 00:44:20.960
Yeah.
00:44:21.199 --> 00:44:25.760
Um well, maybe for let's see, about five or six years.
00:44:25.920 --> 00:44:47.039
Yeah, I've had this urge to like, you know, towards abstraction, but like um at first I was like, this this is doable, you know, like I can I can do abstraction because I have this like set of like uh tools and rules that I use for representational painting um that I can use to create a beautiful composition of that's not representational.
00:44:47.119 --> 00:44:56.880
Like if I use color and edges, values, yes, composition, I all this stuff correctly, I should be able to make an abstract painting that looks good, right?
00:44:57.039 --> 00:44:57.519
Right.
00:44:57.760 --> 00:45:03.199
But I but I quickly found that like that's not no, like something's missing.
00:45:03.519 --> 00:45:04.960
It's a lot harder than you think it is.
00:45:05.039 --> 00:45:06.880
Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's not right.
00:45:06.960 --> 00:45:18.320
Like it's like I'm not getting the same feeling of painting or same feeling of satisfaction, and it doesn't there's something missing, and I could not figure it out.
00:45:18.400 --> 00:45:22.880
So for years I couldn't figure this out, and then just this year, it was early this year.
00:45:23.039 --> 00:45:30.320
Um, I don't know, I was talking, you know, this was I think I don't know, somewhere around January or February or something.
00:45:30.480 --> 00:45:46.400
We have this kid's book about Kandinsky, which is a really cool book, and it and it's like uh it like talks about how Kandinsky, you know, could hear music in the colors, and that allowed him to connect with his emotions, like express his emotions through that.
00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:48.639
I didn't know that about him, but that's awesome.
00:45:48.880 --> 00:45:52.159
Yeah, he has uh synth synthesis, yeah.
00:45:52.320 --> 00:45:57.199
Yeah, um, and I was like, I was like, oh my god, this this is this is what's missing.
00:45:57.360 --> 00:46:01.440
Like like non-representational art is still representing something.
00:46:01.599 --> 00:46:02.159
Yes, exactly.
00:46:02.400 --> 00:46:03.679
It's just representing feeling.
00:46:03.920 --> 00:46:05.519
Bingo, yeah, feeling and emotional.
00:46:05.599 --> 00:46:05.920
Yeah, yeah.
00:46:06.320 --> 00:46:07.599
I was like, my head exploded.
00:46:07.920 --> 00:46:10.639
That's why I feel like it's all representational, you know what I mean?
00:46:10.800 --> 00:46:15.679
Everything like there's just no way you can be painting and not be painting about something, you know what I mean?
00:46:15.760 --> 00:46:18.159
So yeah, that's really that's mind-blowing.
00:46:18.480 --> 00:46:21.280
Yeah, so I I kind of took a page from that.
00:46:21.440 --> 00:46:40.880
Um, and what I tried doing is using music that I connected with and playing that music while painting abstract and um trying to instead of using the rules of uh you know composition that I had made for myself, or um, I just kind of put that into like a subconscious place.
00:46:41.199 --> 00:46:52.400
And then and then I was just moving, like I was just putting down strokes of paint uh on instinct and based on emotion what I was feeling.
00:46:52.559 --> 00:46:54.480
Um again, that's your intuition.
00:46:54.639 --> 00:46:56.079
That's so awesome hearing you say that.
00:46:56.159 --> 00:47:03.280
Yeah, it felt it felt good, like it felt right, like it felt good in a way that trying to paint abstractly was frustrating before.
00:47:03.840 --> 00:47:07.760
Now it felt right, but it was is kind of exhausting in a different way.
00:47:08.400 --> 00:47:12.880
Like because I'm trying to stay in this like heightened emotional state um for hours.
00:47:13.440 --> 00:47:16.079
Yeah, and that's actually really exhausting.
00:47:16.159 --> 00:47:28.559
Um it was fascinating, but you know, I'm yeah, and I'm gonna get keep on doing abstract, and I'm starting to bring some of that abstract sense of sense into my paintings and into my representational painting.
00:47:28.719 --> 00:47:30.960
And that's that's something I'm trying to feel.
00:47:31.199 --> 00:47:32.079
I'm trying to feel things.
00:47:32.400 --> 00:47:32.960
Yeah, completely.
00:47:33.039 --> 00:47:33.599
I I hear that.
00:47:33.760 --> 00:47:34.400
I hear that with you.
00:47:34.559 --> 00:47:35.360
That's really, really awesome.
00:47:35.440 --> 00:47:40.079
Because I I think a lot of people just kind of go through life not not being aware of their feelings, you know?
00:47:40.480 --> 00:47:44.880
So the fact that I mean you've always been in touch with your intuition is is great, you know.
00:47:45.039 --> 00:47:50.719
Um I wonder, are you are are the implementations you use changing now that you're going towards more abstraction?
00:47:50.800 --> 00:47:52.559
Like, are you still using the same brushes?
00:47:52.719 --> 00:47:54.239
Are you bringing brayers in?
00:47:54.320 --> 00:47:55.280
Are you doing like different things?
00:47:55.440 --> 00:47:56.079
Squeegeees.
00:47:56.480 --> 00:47:56.960
Good question.
00:47:57.039 --> 00:47:59.599
Um, yeah, like I'm bringing in different things for sure.
00:47:59.760 --> 00:48:14.159
And I'm also, I don't know if this is like uh like a concurrent thing or caused by or whatever, but over the past, I don't know, year or two, like I've I've become way less uh rigid, you know, and opinionated about things.
00:48:14.400 --> 00:48:16.800
I kind of feel like I now I know I don't know.
00:48:17.199 --> 00:48:18.320
I don't know anything.
00:48:18.559 --> 00:48:29.119
I uh I'm just trying to be intuitive and um yeah and uh not or yeah, trying to listen more to like what's the possibilities, you know.
00:48:29.360 --> 00:48:29.519
Right.
00:48:30.079 --> 00:48:32.320
Letting go of that that veil of judgment, right?
00:48:32.480 --> 00:48:32.960
Yeah, yeah.
00:48:33.199 --> 00:48:34.079
Yes, exactly.
00:48:34.159 --> 00:48:36.880
Yeah, um, yes, not judging as much.
00:48:37.119 --> 00:48:46.880
And now when I you know, in the painting, there's always a point where I get very frustrated, or usually, or like it's a it's a part that you have to slog through, or something like that.
00:48:47.039 --> 00:48:47.280
Yeah.
00:48:47.440 --> 00:48:49.519
And then in the end it's so it's okay.
00:48:49.679 --> 00:49:05.840
But what I'm starting to realize is that more often than not, when I run into those points where either becoming bored or becoming frustrated or not enjoying, you know, the process, I need to let go of uh judgment, but also let go of reference.
00:49:06.400 --> 00:49:14.559
Oh, and just yeah, just put down paint, like just um concentrate not on what I'm trying to do, but like on the painting itself.
00:49:14.639 --> 00:49:16.239
Like I'm just making the painting.
00:49:16.400 --> 00:49:20.400
I'm not trying to represent anything necessarily, I'm just making the painting.
00:49:20.639 --> 00:49:24.079
That makes perfect sense because abstraction is usually surface quality, right?
00:49:24.159 --> 00:49:26.719
Like it's a flat surface, is what you're painting, you know?
00:49:26.880 --> 00:49:35.360
You're more aware of it, whereas you know, fully rendered things, it's it's that sense of depth, the artificial sense of depth within the the picture frame, you know.
00:49:35.440 --> 00:49:36.320
So that makes total sense.
00:49:36.480 --> 00:49:36.639
Yeah.
00:49:37.039 --> 00:49:43.760
And when you're concentrating so hard, right, on making something look like something, then other stuff can't come in.
00:49:43.840 --> 00:49:51.039
Yeah, uh, you're so obsessed with this thing that all these random instincts and intuitions and stuff, you're probably not hearing them.
00:49:51.280 --> 00:49:53.440
Now, how are you aware of all of this that's coming in?
00:49:53.599 --> 00:49:56.239
Like, you know, I ask a lot of my guests, are you journaling?
00:49:56.320 --> 00:49:58.320
Are you doing anything to keep track of these thoughts?
00:49:58.639 --> 00:49:59.920
No, it's just during the painting.
00:50:00.159 --> 00:50:09.599
You know, I just like I feel like um uh and and then I'll like like in terms of maybe color or something, I'll just put down uh what I what my hand is doing.
00:50:09.679 --> 00:50:13.199
You know, I'll just I'll just put down the color that my hand reaches for and puts on.
00:50:13.360 --> 00:50:14.559
Later, I'll analyze it.
00:50:14.800 --> 00:50:15.599
Oh, that's interesting.
00:50:15.760 --> 00:50:15.920
Yeah.
00:50:16.400 --> 00:50:17.440
If that works, yeah.
00:50:17.599 --> 00:50:20.719
But I'm trying to become more and more like instinctual.
00:50:20.880 --> 00:50:21.360
Yeah, yeah.
00:50:21.599 --> 00:50:28.639
But I, you know, I I think I never would have arrived here without the rigorous technicalist stuff first, you know.
00:50:28.960 --> 00:50:30.480
Yes, now I'm starting to get it.
00:50:31.679 --> 00:50:43.119
Like, like I was like, you know, when like I in high school and stuff, I was like, I I kind of liked abstract and modern art and stuff, and then quickly hated it and then hated it for a long time.
00:50:43.760 --> 00:50:47.199
And then and now I'm like actually, I kind of get it.
00:50:47.360 --> 00:50:47.679
Yeah.
00:50:47.840 --> 00:50:51.760
Maybe I'll hate it again later, but like we'll see.
00:50:51.920 --> 00:50:52.159
Yeah.
00:50:52.400 --> 00:50:54.719
I'm trying to remain, I'm trying to keep an open mind.
00:50:54.800 --> 00:51:03.119
And you know, NFTs have helped with that because I've seen I've been exposed to so much different types of art now that um I've started to appreciate all sorts of crazy stuff.
00:51:03.280 --> 00:51:04.480
So that's wonderful.
00:51:04.639 --> 00:51:05.119
Yeah.
00:51:05.360 --> 00:51:05.679
Yeah.
00:51:05.920 --> 00:51:06.719
Oh, that's awesome.
00:51:06.880 --> 00:51:08.639
Can we talk a little bit about the themes in your work?
00:51:08.800 --> 00:51:12.639
Like what are kind of you know, obviously uh you do a lot of figurative work, right?
00:51:12.800 --> 00:51:15.360
And um, you talked about the um, what are they called again?
00:51:15.440 --> 00:51:16.559
The Furbies, right?
00:51:17.360 --> 00:51:17.920
Flurables.
00:51:18.239 --> 00:51:20.159
Flurables, your little insects.
00:51:20.400 --> 00:51:21.599
Well, how how has that grown?
00:51:21.679 --> 00:51:24.880
Because I have a great quote from RT.net, which I'll read here.
00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:28.320
It says um that your work is uh reflecting the language of dreams.
00:51:28.480 --> 00:51:33.280
These dark, hyper-realistic tableaux suggest bizarre and intriguing narratives.
00:51:33.440 --> 00:51:34.320
Is that true?
00:51:34.639 --> 00:51:35.599
What do you think?
00:51:36.559 --> 00:51:37.679
That's a great quote.
00:51:37.840 --> 00:51:40.559
Yeah, I'm not sure if it's accurate.
00:51:40.800 --> 00:51:43.599
Like uh I like stuff, yeah.
00:51:44.239 --> 00:51:46.079
I like the I like the quote a lot.
00:51:46.159 --> 00:51:46.320
Yeah.
00:51:46.480 --> 00:51:47.760
That was really it was a great article.
00:51:48.000 --> 00:51:49.119
Yeah, it makes you sound important.
00:51:49.280 --> 00:51:49.440
Yeah.
00:51:49.679 --> 00:51:51.119
Yeah, it sounds really good.
00:51:51.360 --> 00:51:52.719
I'm not sure what it means.
00:51:52.880 --> 00:51:54.000
I'm not sure if that's true.
00:51:54.320 --> 00:51:55.599
That was my thought too.
00:51:55.840 --> 00:51:58.559
But it's kind of it's kind of, I mean, I kind of like it.
00:51:58.719 --> 00:52:04.320
Like uh, I mean, I um I'm trying to I don't think your work is dark though.
00:52:04.400 --> 00:52:11.760
I mean, I mean, maybe like, you know, uh the ki Kirascuro, like it's definitely like, you know, light emerging from dark, but that's how light happens, right?
00:52:11.840 --> 00:52:14.880
It emerges from dark, and that's how you see that it's light, right?
00:52:15.039 --> 00:52:17.440
But I don't think your subject matter is dark.
00:52:17.519 --> 00:52:19.519
So I wouldn't I wouldn't say that about your work.
00:52:19.679 --> 00:52:20.320
I mean, what do you think?
00:52:20.400 --> 00:52:22.000
I think it's emotive for sure.
00:52:22.320 --> 00:52:22.960
Oh, thank you.
00:52:23.039 --> 00:52:23.360
Yeah.
00:52:23.519 --> 00:52:28.960
I um sometimes it's like literally visually dark, but like not figuratively dark.
00:52:29.039 --> 00:52:29.199
Yeah.
00:52:29.440 --> 00:52:42.159
But uh sometimes the themes come in bunches, you know, like um I'll have a visual idea and uh develop that on one painting, and that um just kind of cascades into the next painting and the next one.
00:52:42.480 --> 00:52:46.960
So but each painting ends up being its own thing at by the end.
00:52:47.119 --> 00:52:53.920
Like like usually I I don't have usually I have a visual idea um that I'll start with.
00:52:54.559 --> 00:53:07.360
And then by the end it has um a deeper meaning and maybe emotional connection to myself and and the title eventually comes to me, usually at the end of the painting or or in the middle.
00:53:07.519 --> 00:53:07.679
Yeah.
00:53:07.840 --> 00:53:13.360
Um and I like yeah, I I used to be a little insecure about that actually, like when I was starting out painting.
00:53:13.440 --> 00:53:19.599
I was like, I need more uh narrative, you know, concept, I need a a deep meaning and or something like that.
00:53:20.400 --> 00:53:22.239
Um well, I was of two minds.
00:53:22.320 --> 00:53:25.119
I was like, what there's nothing wrong with painting pretty pictures.
00:53:25.280 --> 00:53:33.039
I was saying that to myself in a way, in a defensive way, because I was like a little insecure about the fact that maybe my work wasn't deep enough or something.
00:53:33.199 --> 00:53:37.280
And then later I realized that all the work I've done, it is inherently me.
00:53:37.440 --> 00:53:38.559
It's inherently deep.
00:53:38.719 --> 00:53:47.519
Like all that came from all my life's experiences, um, whatever happened was happening to me in my mind at the time, like that all comes from the artist, you know.
00:53:47.599 --> 00:53:55.519
And so you don't need a solid narrative or solid idea in order for it to be extremely authentic and personal and meaningful.
00:53:55.760 --> 00:53:56.079
Completely.
00:53:56.159 --> 00:54:00.079
And the objects and cells that you're working, you know, with are your objects, you know.
00:54:00.159 --> 00:54:02.320
So it's your curation of of things.
00:54:02.559 --> 00:54:03.280
Yeah, I love that.
00:54:04.480 --> 00:54:06.000
I'm trying to chill out about that.
00:54:06.159 --> 00:54:10.400
And then there's just realizing that there is a lot of depth to all the things.
00:54:10.480 --> 00:54:15.519
Like I mean, everything you everything any artist makes, there's a lot of depth to it.
00:54:15.679 --> 00:54:16.719
It's from them.
00:54:16.880 --> 00:54:24.639
And um, but then once in a while, some some other um more uh let's see, deliberate or conscious idea.
00:54:24.800 --> 00:54:27.039
Well, I'll I'll take that and work with it.
00:54:27.199 --> 00:54:27.760
So yeah.
00:54:28.000 --> 00:54:34.480
Um, I think I saw recently, what is the the name of the painting that you did with the that sold at the LA uh LA Art Fair, right?
00:54:34.559 --> 00:54:35.840
Or did sell prior to that?
00:54:35.920 --> 00:54:42.000
It's the figure and it has like that beautiful um landscape in the background that I think was inspired by Thomas Moran.
00:54:42.079 --> 00:54:42.639
Is that the one?
00:54:42.880 --> 00:54:43.519
Yes, that's right.
00:54:43.599 --> 00:54:44.719
Okay, you are boundless.
00:54:44.800 --> 00:54:47.519
That was actually so the ones all the I'm looking at them right now.
00:54:47.679 --> 00:54:52.719
The the paintings that I um the four paintings that were in the LA Art Show, none of them have sold yet.
00:54:52.880 --> 00:54:53.119
Okay.
00:54:53.280 --> 00:55:01.920
But then right after that, the next painting, um, yeah, you are boundless sold for the um Robert Lang Studios uh show, group show at the time.
00:55:02.079 --> 00:55:08.079
Um yeah, that was uh so it seems like every painting these days like gives me some epiphany or something.
00:55:08.159 --> 00:55:08.320
Yeah.
00:55:09.119 --> 00:55:12.559
And this one, that was one where I was like, reference is like killing me.
00:55:12.639 --> 00:55:14.960
Like, yeah, yeah, it's really tiring me out.
00:55:15.039 --> 00:55:16.480
Like I'm I'm sick of it.
00:55:16.639 --> 00:55:32.400
And uh so, but at the beginning, so what I did was I took one of my AI artworks that had been generated kind of from my paintings, and then took Thomas Moran's uh Green River Cliffs, Wyoming painting, which is like an amazing painting, one of my favorites.
00:55:32.639 --> 00:55:34.079
I think that's in the Smithsonian, right?
00:55:34.239 --> 00:55:35.440
Yes, yeah, uh-huh.
00:55:35.679 --> 00:55:39.679
And then blended those together in AI to see what would happen.
00:55:39.840 --> 00:55:45.599
And I came up with these really cool looking outputs, and that's what sparked this idea.
00:55:45.760 --> 00:55:45.920
Yeah.
00:55:46.079 --> 00:55:52.159
And then I took a couple of those outputs, the ones that look like like compositionally something I'd be interested in.
00:55:52.320 --> 00:55:57.199
And then I got uh figure reference from a model on um Instagram.
00:55:57.519 --> 00:56:00.639
Um I think the tag her tag is Mar Art Model.
00:56:00.800 --> 00:56:01.840
Um, she's awesome.
00:56:02.000 --> 00:56:09.920
But I I um so I purchased reference from her and um I collaged that in there and um started making this painting.
00:56:10.079 --> 00:56:20.800
Um at first being pretty faithful to my Photoshop like composite of everything, uh especially with and then with the figure, I mean I I needed the figure as reference to make sure it looked good and everything.
00:56:21.039 --> 00:56:34.079
But at a certain point, uh once the figure was pretty much in there, I was like, you know, that that uh the sticky point of a painting where it's like it turns into a slog, and I was really kind of frustrated with the whole thing.
00:56:34.239 --> 00:56:34.480
Yeah.
00:56:34.639 --> 00:56:36.159
And I was like, this is annoying.
00:56:36.239 --> 00:56:46.880
I just stopped looking at all reference, and I was just um trying to paint instinctually and concentrate on making a good painting, not necessarily representing anything.
00:56:47.360 --> 00:56:52.960
And I started making marks and you know, making decisions and uh basically finished out the painting like that.
00:56:53.039 --> 00:56:59.280
And uh at first I was like, I like I don't paint cliffs, like I I need something.
00:56:59.440 --> 00:57:03.920
Yeah, I rarely paint water, I need something to hang on to so I I can give some realism.
00:57:04.000 --> 00:57:05.119
And then I was like, why?
00:57:05.360 --> 00:57:08.159
Like, is it I'm trying to make a painting.
00:57:08.239 --> 00:57:12.960
I'm not trying to make uh a photo of somewhere or or even of somewhere specific or anything.
00:57:13.119 --> 00:57:16.480
I don't need reference, I can just make decisions to make a painting.
00:57:16.639 --> 00:57:19.039
It's okay if it doesn't look like a real real thing.
00:57:19.199 --> 00:57:21.199
Um, and then I was having a blast.
00:57:21.360 --> 00:57:24.960
I was having so much fun on that painting because I was free, you know.
00:57:25.119 --> 00:57:34.079
Yeah, it was I think it's interesting that you were drawn to Moran because um his paintings are the reason why we have like Yellowstone National Park and all the national parks out there.
00:57:34.239 --> 00:57:46.719
Like um, you know, they he was you know bringing up the landscape on a very sublime level, and the whole idea was save these, you know, save these sacred spaces, they're beautiful, and putting it up and you know, uh bringing it to everybody's attention.
00:57:46.800 --> 00:57:52.320
So I love that you were you were focusing on on on this well, this one artist really inspired you.
00:57:52.400 --> 00:57:57.840
And again, it's this emotive quality that I that we've been touching on that your work is very, you know, emotional.
00:57:57.920 --> 00:58:01.679
That um I you know, you didn't just pick any other random landscape.
00:58:01.760 --> 00:58:06.320
You chose Thomas Moran as as a beginning point, you know, and I just find that really interesting.
00:58:06.639 --> 00:58:10.400
Do you feel like this was a breakthrough for you, this particular painting in this particular process?
00:58:10.719 --> 00:58:11.679
Yeah, I think so.
00:58:11.840 --> 00:58:13.679
Um I think it was.
00:58:13.920 --> 00:58:18.079
Uh it's starting to feel like every single painting I do is now a breakthrough.
00:58:18.480 --> 00:58:18.880
Oh wow.
00:58:19.599 --> 00:58:20.639
That's a great place to be.
00:58:20.719 --> 00:58:20.960
Yeah.
00:58:21.199 --> 00:58:22.639
It's cool, but it's exhausting.
00:58:22.719 --> 00:58:22.880
Yeah.
00:58:23.039 --> 00:58:35.840
Um but it it came, I guess, it's after, I don't know, like, you know, and you know this very well, like it's very difficult to balance uh your art practice with parenting and yeah, we didn't even talk about that.
00:58:36.000 --> 00:58:36.320
Yes.
00:58:36.559 --> 00:58:36.800
Yeah.
00:58:36.960 --> 00:58:52.480
So it's like I mean, I feel like the past since I don't know, 2017 or something, has been like this blur of like weirdness, and I and that's hard to like lock down on on a creative process and like you know, so there's been ups and downs.
00:58:52.559 --> 00:58:59.599
Um, but now I'm starting to I feel like I'm starting to open up my mind a little bit, and uh all these uh things are coming in.
00:58:59.760 --> 00:59:04.639
I'm starting to realize, you know, things about my art or art in general.
00:59:04.719 --> 00:59:09.519
Uh and I'm just trying to, yeah, not judge, uh just um following, you know.
00:59:09.840 --> 00:59:10.480
Oh, I love it.
00:59:10.800 --> 00:59:11.280
I love it.
00:59:11.360 --> 00:59:11.679
I love it.
00:59:11.760 --> 00:59:13.840
I think that's a great place to end the podcast.
00:59:14.000 --> 00:59:15.519
This has been fantastic, David.
00:59:15.599 --> 00:59:17.199
I've really enjoyed talking to you and reconnecting.
00:59:17.679 --> 00:59:18.559
It's been a pleasure, yeah.
00:59:18.719 --> 00:59:19.840
It's been a real pleasure.
00:59:20.000 --> 00:59:21.599
Um, thank you so much.
00:59:21.760 --> 00:59:26.239
And um, you know, I look forward to seeing the work continue to develop, especially the abstraction.
00:59:26.320 --> 00:59:27.360
That's been very exciting for me.
00:59:27.679 --> 00:59:28.000
Awesome.
00:59:28.079 --> 00:59:29.039
Thank you so much, Suzanne.
00:59:29.119 --> 00:59:30.400
Yeah, it's been a pleasure.
00:59:31.280 --> 00:59:35.599
I knew David Nishita Schaeffitz was the person to talk to about intuition, NFTs, and AI.
00:59:36.239 --> 00:59:36.480
Wow.
00:59:36.719 --> 00:59:38.719
Thank you, David, for this illuminating conversation.
00:59:39.760 --> 00:59:42.559
There are so many gems in this episode that you can use in your own creative work.
00:59:43.440 --> 00:59:43.760
Here they are.
00:59:44.559 --> 00:59:47.440
David realized at one point in his career that he was at a crossroads.
00:59:48.400 --> 00:59:52.000
One that led to a traditional career in still life and one that could lead to something more unique.
00:59:52.800 --> 00:59:53.360
He chose the latter.
00:59:54.480 --> 00:59:57.440
Follow your intuition, be Twitter yourself and paint what you want to paint.
00:59:57.840 --> 00:59:59.199
Eventually someone will appreciate it.
01:00:00.400 --> 01:00:02.159
Remember that there is a market for everything.
01:00:02.480 --> 01:00:04.960
You just have to find and connect with the audience that appreciates it.
01:00:05.840 --> 01:00:10.639
A really special benefit of creating NFTs is that they allow artists to get royalties for secondary sales.
01:00:11.599 --> 01:00:15.119
Also, consider that there are people out there who have no interest in owning physical work.
01:00:15.920 --> 01:00:17.039
NFTs are the answer for them.
01:00:18.159 --> 01:00:20.719
When you're building an audience, build from low, David advises.
01:00:21.280 --> 01:00:23.280
Low cost, low startup until you are making money.
01:00:24.559 --> 01:00:32.719
Building up his audience on Twitter from zero followers took one year of constant work of posting every day, interacting with collectors, networking with other artists, and collecting their work.
01:00:33.760 --> 01:00:37.199
Being in that Twitter NFT community of artists and creators helped get his work out there.
01:00:38.480 --> 01:00:45.679
David, inspired by Kandinsky's anesthesia, began painting to music and responding to it as a way of incorporating abstraction into his working process.
01:00:46.480 --> 01:00:47.840
This is a great tip we can all try.
01:00:48.320 --> 01:00:51.679
What senses can you focus on while working that can add another dimension to your work?
01:00:52.719 --> 01:00:57.280
Lastly, David now tries to not look so much at reference anymore and just work from his intuition.
01:00:58.000 --> 01:01:00.719
This is honestly a really courageous act for a representational painter.
01:01:01.440 --> 01:01:05.119
But the reward is that it opens up totally new horizons in both his creativity and his work.
01:01:06.159 --> 01:01:07.920
I want to thank David again for coming on the podcast.
01:01:08.880 --> 01:01:10.000
I really enjoyed talking to you.
01:01:10.880 --> 01:01:14.559
For the rest of you, please check out the show notes for links on things we covered in this episode.
01:01:15.199 --> 01:01:18.719
If you have enjoyed listening to my podcast, please consider leaving me a five-star review.
01:01:19.280 --> 01:01:21.840
It helps my content rise to the top so other people can find it.
01:01:22.719 --> 01:01:30.400
Lastly, come find us on Instagram where we have a community of creative contemplation podcast followers and where I post extra exclusive content on each guest.
01:01:30.559 --> 01:01:32.559
Thank you for spending another hour of your day with me.
01:01:32.719 --> 01:01:35.280
It is truly wonderful to be able to connect with you in this way.
01:01:35.440 --> 01:01:36.639
With that, I'll sign off.
01:01:36.800 --> 01:01:38.559
Until next time, creatives,
