Ep 130, The Devastating Toll of Toxic Work Environments

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Music.
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Managed. I'm your host, Merry Brown. This week on Conflict Managed,
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we welcome Lorraine Segal.
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After 20 years in toxic academia as a tenured professor, Lorraine was inspired
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to start her own business, Conflict Remedy, happily offering DEIB-informed teaching,
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coaching, presenting, and consulting around workplace conflict transformation.
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She has helped over 2,000 leaders and nonprofit corporations and small businesses
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improve communication, harmony, and productivity at work to understand and deal
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with bullying and mobbing more effectively.
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She is a contributing author to the anthology Stand Up, Speak Out Against Workplace Bullying.
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Her recently published memoir, Angels and Earthworms, An Unexpected Journey
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to Love, Joy, and Miracles, is about her own transformation from miserable self-doubt
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to self-acceptance, true love, spiritual awareness, and right livelihood.
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Find out more and read Lorraine's blog at conflictremedy.com.
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Good morning, Lorraine, and welcome to Conflict Managed.
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Oh, thank you so much, Mary. I'm so happy to be here with you.
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I am delighted to be here with you as well. And I found you and your work as
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I was reading, I think it was an article on Mediate.com.
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You've got wonderful articles and you are really engaged in trying to help people
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have better work environments and therefore better and more fulfilling lives.
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And so I would like to hear all about you, but I want to start with the first
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job you ever had as a young person.
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Oh, the first job I ever had was as a sales associate at a children's clothing
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boutique in a shopping complex.
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And I was making minimum wage and I was the youngest one there. And I learned a lot.
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So tell us about that experience. It was only for a little time.
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And then I switched to working at a, it was called Bullock's Department Store
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in Southern California.
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And I floated all over. I helped dress the models. I worked in different departments.
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Then I worked in the fine jewelry department because it was really complicated
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with the keys and everything.
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And they liked having college girls there because they could remember all the
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different key things and the locking up and everything.
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And actually, it was an interesting experience in talking to my co-workers,
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and I was more focused on education,
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so it was my first real experience besides babysitting and things of having
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a taste of what it was like to be in the work world, which certainly made me
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want to keep getting an education.
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And I actually had something really dramatic happen there where there was a
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robbery right in front of me where they were taking these expensive hats across the way.
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And I was so foolish. I chased after them and wrote down the license plate number.
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And they caught one of them. And then I had to testify in court.
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And then they laid me off to hire this man in his 80s who couldn't use the keys
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at all. but he looked like a jeweler.
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And I, at the time, didn't understand at all why they would want him rather than me.
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Now I do.
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Whoa, what some interesting first jobs. So both in retail, retail is,
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you know, we think about working with the public.
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So retail or food is such an interesting introduction because we've got our
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family of origin and our experiences,
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and then were out with everybody right
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yes wow what an experience and i
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met a couple of movie stars nobody you would have heard of
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now because it was so long ago but you know
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people who were in mission impossible or the bionic man i met i and i thought
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where do i know these how do why do they look familiar and then i met the guy
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who played sergeant joe friday that's southern california Yeah,
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you never know who's going to walk in a shop. Absolutely.
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Do you remember anything from those first jobs about management,
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how you were treated as an employee?
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I mean, I wasn't treated terribly. The one in the fine jewelry,
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it was like Peyton Place.
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There were two women who were both Latina.
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One was from an upper-class family who had gone to private schools,
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and one of them was more of like a street fighter kind.
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Both gorgeous, and they hated each other and wouldn't talk Spanish to each other at all.
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And the street fighter kind of gal, She was tall and dramatic with black hair
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and flashing eyes, you know, a little bit stereotypic, I guess,
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of what the movies would say about.
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And the other woman had red hair and, you know, very patrician looking.
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And she had a sort of affair with the manager, the street fighter gal.
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And I saw them once in the back room and she had her leg wrapped around his waist. Oh, my word.
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What an introduction to the world of work from intrigue.
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You know, and the other thing, it was people who came to the fine jewelry department were mostly rich.
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A lot of them were. And the arrogance, which, you know, I remember one woman
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looking at things and asking me, and then she looked at me and said,
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I didn't even see you were a person. Wow.
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Yeah. What did you go to college for? I
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went to UCLA and I studied
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psychology and political science thinking
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that well actually I started in English and at
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that time they really didn't teach people how to write I got
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a C on my first essay in English composition and I was horrified because I'd
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always gotten A's in English in high school and so I switched majors on the
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spot I couldn't bear any I had no concept of that it was something I could learn
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to do better, and that was okay.
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So I switched to psychology and political science, which was actually really,
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they were both really interesting, and I learned a lot.
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And then I went back to English later.
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So after undergraduate, you went to graduate school?
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Not right away. I actually took some time off. I worked at a battered women's shelter.
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I worked at a co-op grocery store. I did different things.
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And when I was at the Battered Women's Shelter, I came across this flyer.
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It was called Women Healing and Social Change in Mexico.
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So I went to Mexico and studied Spanish and liberation theology and feminism in Mexico.
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And it was totally mind-blowing about different cultures and how people communicate.
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And so when I came back, I had been thinking of going to law school or becoming a psychologist,
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and I really became fascinated with cultural differences, and I went back to
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school to study how to teach English as a second language and linguistics.
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And so then you worked at a university teaching ESL, is that correct?
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Yeah, first I was at what's called a freeway flyer, where you have,
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you know, it's like edubiz, you have no rights, very few benefits.
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And I drove all around the Bay Area, which is where I lived at that time.
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I worked at about eight different colleges total, I think, piecing together
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a living from teaching at different schools, trying to get a full-time job.
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And then I finally landed one and I had to relocate.
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But at that point, I was willing to do that to get the golden,
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you know, the golden goal of tenure.
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I think we could do a whole podcast on the ethics of adjunct teaching and how
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adjuncts are treated and what is expected of them.
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But setting that aside, so you got the job of your dreams.
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So I thought. So you thought. And I was so, I mean, I was like in a honeymoon.
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I was in bliss that I was full-time.
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And I actually got hired to run the small English as a second language department.
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So I was kind of thrown into a management situation right away as well.
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And I think that lasted about a month.
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Then I started realizing, as the head of the criminal justice department told
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me at that time, This place was in a 50s time warp, and I was going to run into
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a lot of stuff and just be warned.
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And he was absolutely right. They hired me to expand and strengthen the ESL department.
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And then when I started making the schedules for the next semester,
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they wouldn't give me classroom space.
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And I had to fight for it.
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It was very much a pay lip service to what we're supposed to be doing, but not doing it.
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And they really, there was a big attitude that women should not be leaders that
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I uncovered. And there was anti-Semitism and homophobia and you name it.
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They treated my students like second-class citizens because they were immigrants.
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And I did a lot to fight for my students and to be a good teacher and to hire
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good adjuncts and treat them as well as I possibly could, given that I didn't
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have control over payroll.
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But yeah, I was there a total of 20 years, actually.
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And by the time I left, I had PTSD really severely.
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And I escaped. I finally just figured out a way to get out of there.
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Escape, because it was relentless, the lies they told about me and to me.
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For example, we got funding for people who were.
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You know, first-time college students and underserved communities to create a language lab.
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And I did so much work. I put together a proposal. I did all this research.
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I went and visited places.
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I learned how to set up the lab physically once we got, you know,
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what configuration would work.
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I trained myself in the software and everything.
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And then the lab was completely taken away from the ESL department and used as a language lab.
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And I never got credit for the work I'd done and my students didn't get the benefits ultimately.
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That was one of endless maddening things. And it wasn't just to me.
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I wasn't just the only one, but it was definitely bullying and mobbing.
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And yeah, so.
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I'm sorry you experienced that. That sounds awful. When you were describing
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originally what the environment was like, I'm like, oh, I hope you got out of
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there in a couple of months.
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And then you said 20 years with the word escape.
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And that's how many people feel at work, or some people feel that at work,
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that they are in toxic environments.
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And of course, we know the reason that people stay in a toxic environment is
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because they feel trapped.
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It was so hard to walk away from tenure. And it wasn't horrible the whole time.
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I mean, I'm not a horrible masochist. You know, I loved my students.
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I loved actually running the department. It was fun.
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It used my brain. And they didn't compare what I taught as long as I was teaching
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reading, writing, oral communication skills.
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So I taught my students all kinds of cool stuff like environmental action and
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media literacy and gender roles and transgender. I did these amazing fun things.
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I looked over my materials once when I had left
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and was finally going to get rid of them because I
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knew I would never teach ESL again and I
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thought damn you were good yeah so
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there were good things I learned a lot and you
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know about managing up and managing down and I
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I didn't realize until I switched careers what
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an excellent job I'd done with no formal training in
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that but it got the last few years got worse and worse I was I was a wreck it
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was just like being assaulted every day when I went in there and I withdrew
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from any leadership positions because it was too much and you know I.
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One of the horrible things that happened that turned out to be good was I was
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forced to participate in a
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so-called mediation run by someone who knew almost nothing, an HR person.
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And there's many wonderful HR people, but this one was not.
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And she had taken like probably a two-hour training on mediation or something.
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And it was everybody attack Lorraine.
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That's what it was. And it was horrible. But out of that, I thought,
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this can't be what a mediation is.
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This can't be the way you resolve conflict in a good world.
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And so I actually, through serendipity,
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found a program in conflict management at my local university.
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And I went back to school and fell in love with the field and eventually,
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as I say, escaped from that environment and started my own business.
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Well, it's so wonderful that there's a silver lining, but you talked about PTSD.
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I mean, this is the thing about toxic work environments is that when we leave,
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it's not like we are turning the page and starting over as if all of that,
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the way that we've been treated,
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the way we've been misunderstood and belittled and looked over and all of the
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things that you experienced and that people experience in these environments,
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they have this way of sticking with us if we don't deal with them.
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And what happens to most people is they leave an environment because they can't
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take it anymore, but they still need to pay their rent. And so they go right back to work.
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And it's the working wounded from one place to another. Even if the next place
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is good, they're still reeling from those experiences.
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Absolutely. And one of the things that I tell people when I teach about this
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and when I've coached people is that time alone does not heal PTSD.
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And I actually was in therapy with a trauma-informed therapist when I was still there.
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And she did EMDR work with me and all these things.
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And then I had to continue after I had left because the first job I had post
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this horrible place was at the university still teaching ESL.
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It was like a summer program and they hired me. and I started being bullied and mobbed there too.
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And I could tell that so much of it was me, that I was kind of in victim mode
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and I could see it, but I couldn't stop it. And it was a really bad experience.
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Well, it was a setup anyway, the way they wanted me to teach and everything.
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But still, I was just shaking still, I think.
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And I couldn't cope with it. And so I went back and I said, I need more help.
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And I worked with a somatic therapist to just get it out of my cells.
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And then for a while, whenever I would still, I wanted to teach about it.
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I wanted to help people with it. But whenever I did, I would end up shaking by the end.
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And then gradually, through many healing things that I did, that lifted.
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And I could talk about it and teach about it without getting so triggered.
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But it's been a whole, you know, a whole process and commitment to my healing
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and a belief that I deserve help.
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And I've coached people who were able to survive very well and heal,
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and other people who never worked again, because they were devastated.
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And especially if it was on top of childhood trauma that they had never dealt
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with, it just wrecked their lives.
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It really did. It didn't, you know, it was very sad.
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Sometimes I have people say, oh, you know, I can't believe you have a full-time
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job working on conflict.
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I've never had any problems. And I think, I'm so happy for you.
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And for those people who just really haven't, just run-of-the-mill,
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you know, people issues, but no real problems or haven't really witnessed it,
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It really is hard to explain the absolute devastation that bullying,
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gaslighting, mobbing, these toxic work environments can have on people's physical
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health, their mental health, and we know sometimes it causes death.
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Yes, I talk about that, that the ultimate outcome of bullying and mobbing is
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death, sometimes suicide, sometimes homicide, because some of the people who
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did the school shootings,
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etc., they were bullied first at school.
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And that's not a justification, but it just explains some of the background
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of, and, you know, one of the things I wrote about in my memoir,
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Angels and Earthworms, it's called, was I had this moment, one of the many,
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many egregious things had happened.
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And I was so mad, I couldn't even see straight.
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And I walked out of my office into the lobby, and I wanted with my energy to
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burn the entire place down.
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In that moment, because I felt so powerless and so enraged.
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And it was just a fleeting moment, and it's terrifying.
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It was like, whoa, what was that? And that's when I knew I had to do more forgiveness
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work. I had to do more to get out of there, because I didn't want my heart to
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shatter in a million better pieces.
00:18:37.317 --> 00:18:44.157
But those feelings can be very deep and very big. Yeah, absolutely.
00:18:44.677 --> 00:18:47.977
And, you know, going into the space that you do now with this,
00:18:48.137 --> 00:18:51.957
you know, with helping people have deal with what's going on with them and,
00:18:51.957 --> 00:18:53.757
and the different services you offer,
00:18:53.977 --> 00:18:58.237
you know, going through that work yourself obviously makes you a better mediator,
00:18:58.377 --> 00:19:00.997
coach and all the services that you, that you offer.
00:19:00.997 --> 00:19:04.617
Because I think sometimes when people have had negative experiences at work,
00:19:04.837 --> 00:19:11.097
they end up thinking the way to solve the next person's problem is the way I solved it.
00:19:11.217 --> 00:19:15.057
Or there is no solving it because there was no solving it for me.
00:19:15.177 --> 00:19:20.817
Instead of being able to look at our own trauma, the things that have happened
00:19:20.817 --> 00:19:25.037
to us and deal with that, but in a way, compartmentalize it to be that neutral.
00:19:25.688 --> 00:19:29.128
To be able to be with people that, because sometimes in the mediation,
00:19:29.348 --> 00:19:33.248
you feel that inner, you don't resonate with one of the parties, right?
00:19:33.528 --> 00:19:38.068
And yet, you're not there judging them. You are there making the space so that
00:19:38.068 --> 00:19:39.648
they can come together, right?
00:19:39.728 --> 00:19:45.088
And so, how you de-escalate yourself from the own past hurts.
00:19:45.528 --> 00:19:49.308
Yeah. Well, one thing, I have two things I want to say about that.
00:19:49.388 --> 00:19:52.388
One is, I don't ever refer to myself as a neutral.
00:19:52.588 --> 00:19:57.428
I am not neutral. I am passionately committed to helping them talk to each other.
00:19:58.468 --> 00:20:02.308
But I do put aside my own, because it's not about me.
00:20:02.588 --> 00:20:05.868
It's about that they have a miscommunication or misunderstanding,
00:20:05.868 --> 00:20:11.348
or they're telling stories about each other, because we all tell stories about
00:20:11.348 --> 00:20:17.548
ourselves and each other that aren't the truth, because none of us have access to the truth.
00:20:17.548 --> 00:20:22.988
And so my commitment is to help them see that they're having parallel truths
00:20:22.988 --> 00:20:26.088
and stories and find common ground.
00:20:26.508 --> 00:20:32.828
And, you know, I teach, I have taught a lot of people who were mostly HR people
00:20:32.828 --> 00:20:37.928
and managers and professionals who have to deal with conflict a lot.
00:20:38.368 --> 00:20:43.188
And one of the things I tell them is you have to do your own work.
00:20:43.188 --> 00:20:47.948
Because for other people, you can go a little bit beyond where you are,
00:20:47.968 --> 00:20:49.548
you know, because it's easier to
00:20:49.548 --> 00:20:54.348
see things about other people than about ourselves, but only a little bit.
00:20:54.348 --> 00:20:59.648
So if you don't deal with your own fears and about conflict,
00:20:59.648 --> 00:21:04.208
if you don't see yourself clearly and who you and conflict are,
00:21:04.608 --> 00:21:07.268
then it's really hard to help other people.
00:21:07.468 --> 00:21:11.708
Yeah, absolutely. To get out of the way, to make the way for them,
00:21:11.908 --> 00:21:13.048
to clear the path for them.
00:21:13.448 --> 00:21:17.088
I was doing a training yesterday, and one of the questions was,
00:21:17.208 --> 00:21:22.788
I asked this group, and they were broken into groups, how much of your day,
00:21:22.788 --> 00:21:25.888
your week, do you spend dealing with conflicts with a bunch of managers?
00:21:26.648 --> 00:21:29.368
And one person, these two people were talking, one person said,
00:21:29.428 --> 00:21:33.408
oh, I don't really have anything. And the other person said, it's 70% of my day.
00:21:34.008 --> 00:21:38.548
And so these people who are in HR roles or particular management roles,
00:21:38.768 --> 00:21:43.868
depending on what kind of organization they're in, they are constantly dealing with this.
00:21:45.148 --> 00:21:47.088
And yet a lot of times they aren't,
00:21:47.618 --> 00:21:51.398
properly trained. Exactly. That's my mission.
00:21:51.618 --> 00:21:57.638
Yeah, because I know I include when I'm giving my pitch, like my intro pitch
00:21:57.638 --> 00:22:04.618
of why does everyone in HR and leaders need to have training with conflict?
00:22:04.858 --> 00:22:10.818
And I give them statistics about how much of HR people at least one day a week.
00:22:10.918 --> 00:22:17.718
I mean, As you said, it varies with the company managers. It can be 50% of their
00:22:17.718 --> 00:22:23.718
time and just regular team leaders and just regular working people without particular
00:22:23.718 --> 00:22:24.958
leadership responsibilities.
00:22:25.318 --> 00:22:29.418
Their time can be caught up with toxic conflict.
00:22:29.698 --> 00:22:36.038
And a lot of times it's pretty simple once you understand to be able to fix it.
00:22:36.498 --> 00:22:41.018
Oh, this is funny, but I read this Dear Abby story, right?
00:22:41.018 --> 00:22:46.598
It was just recently, it was about a family situation and this mother had written
00:22:46.598 --> 00:22:51.778
in about her son and his fiance and they were, and it was the most,
00:22:51.938 --> 00:22:57.898
I wrote an article about it called How to Make Every Mistake in a Conflict.
00:22:59.678 --> 00:23:03.798
They had made like four classic conflict
00:23:03.798 --> 00:23:07.018
mistakes that can really be fixed easily if
00:23:07.018 --> 00:23:10.878
you can step outside the drama trauma and and
00:23:10.878 --> 00:23:17.338
have a more nuanced sense of my story their story where did we each go wrong
00:23:17.338 --> 00:23:21.558
so even though it was about I thought should I use it because it's about a family
00:23:21.558 --> 00:23:27.778
and I thought no this applies to the workplace too so I wrote about it it just dropped yesterday.
00:23:29.458 --> 00:23:33.418
Wonderful. In fact, speaking of articles, you wrote an article,
00:23:33.598 --> 00:23:38.118
and this is the one I found you through, about people who are going into business
00:23:38.118 --> 00:23:44.418
with one another and setting up the conditions so that people...
00:23:44.764 --> 00:23:49.404
So that when people start a new venture, a relationship or anything at work,
00:23:49.524 --> 00:23:50.544
it's that honeymoon phase.
00:23:50.684 --> 00:23:53.564
Even like you talked about, oh, you've landed this wonderful job, everything.
00:23:53.844 --> 00:23:59.044
And so we just assume that other people will, quote unquote,
00:23:59.184 --> 00:24:03.424
act professionally, that there aren't going to be any personal or personnel
00:24:03.424 --> 00:24:07.024
issues, which is completely unreasonable because we're human persons.
00:24:07.024 --> 00:24:09.624
And we are going to butt heads every once in a while.
00:24:09.804 --> 00:24:13.264
And if, depending on who we are, if we don't have a path forward,
00:24:13.264 --> 00:24:20.004
it can escalate and, and, and turn toxic or, or, or especially when it's,
00:24:20.124 --> 00:24:21.824
you know, it can really sour relationships.
00:24:21.824 --> 00:24:27.444
So what advice do you have for people when they are starting a venture.
00:24:27.824 --> 00:24:31.944
Whatever kind of venture it is, to not conflict-proof, because that's not the
00:24:31.944 --> 00:24:37.344
goal, but to put in place a plan so that when conflicts happen,
00:24:37.504 --> 00:24:41.624
they're managed early, often, swiftly, and justly? Right.
00:24:41.924 --> 00:24:45.484
Well, it depends on the particular venture and the people, of course.
00:24:45.704 --> 00:24:52.284
But the first thing I tell everyone is that conflict happens.
00:24:52.644 --> 00:24:57.944
Conflict is a normal and frequent part of human interactions.
00:24:57.944 --> 00:25:02.604
When you have a group, when you have people, you're not going to see things exactly alike.
00:25:02.784 --> 00:25:06.864
You're, you know, you're going to butt heads at times, most likely,
00:25:07.104 --> 00:25:10.004
sooner or later. So accept that.
00:25:10.644 --> 00:25:14.144
That's the first thing, because when people have this, you know,
00:25:14.304 --> 00:25:18.064
rosy idea that there's, you know, oh, I love this person, we're going into business,
00:25:18.204 --> 00:25:23.344
it's all going to be fun and games and rose petals, and then they're setting
00:25:23.344 --> 00:25:24.604
themselves up for trouble.
00:25:25.204 --> 00:25:29.824
So just that acknowledgement, that understanding that conflict doesn't mean
00:25:29.824 --> 00:25:33.704
they're bad or the other person's bad. It just means they see things differently.
00:25:34.124 --> 00:25:39.584
And that one of the things I talk about is that there are some teachings about
00:25:39.584 --> 00:25:42.384
how there's a good kind of conflict and a bad kind of conflict.
00:25:42.704 --> 00:25:47.324
You know, the bad kind is personality conflict and pointing fingers and calling names.
00:25:47.324 --> 00:25:50.224
And the good kind of conflict is that tension from
00:25:50.224 --> 00:25:54.044
comes that comes from having a shared goal but
00:25:54.044 --> 00:25:59.224
having very very different ideas about how to get there so that basic understanding
00:25:59.224 --> 00:26:05.164
helps people have the right frame of mind and then if they're going into a business
00:26:05.164 --> 00:26:11.604
partnership one of the things or a venture is what do we do is to talk about
00:26:11.604 --> 00:26:14.024
what do we do when we don't agree You know,
00:26:14.264 --> 00:26:17.264
so set up, can we sit down and meet about it?
00:26:17.384 --> 00:26:19.924
You know, all of those kinds of things.
00:26:20.284 --> 00:26:26.024
There has to be a process and a commitment to communicate instead of running
00:26:26.024 --> 00:26:30.844
with judgments or beliefs that this person is the enemy.
00:26:31.184 --> 00:26:35.004
So that's like my basic, basic advice.
00:26:35.624 --> 00:26:37.524
Absolutely. I 100% agree. And
00:26:37.524 --> 00:26:40.744
whether you're starting a business or you're the leader of a team, yeah.
00:26:41.146 --> 00:26:45.226
You know, having those conversations, right? We are going to disagree.
00:26:45.566 --> 00:26:49.706
What should we do? This is how I like to be talked to. How do you want to be talked to?
00:26:50.246 --> 00:26:54.326
Exactly. And curiosity and listening.
00:26:54.966 --> 00:26:59.526
Instead of, you know, there's a book I love called How to, you can get difficult
00:26:59.526 --> 00:27:03.386
conversations, how to discuss what matters most. It's a classic.
00:27:03.706 --> 00:27:08.186
And, but one of the things they talk about is shifting from blame to contribution.
00:27:08.186 --> 00:27:13.086
So instead of blaming the other person or blaming yourself, you shift to,
00:27:13.126 --> 00:27:16.226
well, what have I contributed to this situation? What have you contributed?
00:27:16.606 --> 00:27:22.506
And the whole listening plus curiosity of, well, they're not my enemy.
00:27:22.666 --> 00:27:26.286
They weren't doing this to me for the most part. I mean, there's narcissists
00:27:26.286 --> 00:27:32.586
and bullies, but in general, most people aren't trying to do something to you.
00:27:32.586 --> 00:27:35.806
So if you could say, I wonder what they were thinking about this,
00:27:35.886 --> 00:27:38.446
or what was their truth or their story?
00:27:38.646 --> 00:27:44.566
And when both people are doing that, I mean, it's amazing what you can work
00:27:44.566 --> 00:27:46.746
out. Would you like an example?
00:27:47.086 --> 00:27:50.906
Absolutely, please. Yeah. Well, I was hired by this.
00:27:51.046 --> 00:27:57.246
It was actually a big credit union to work with some of their high-level C-suite people.
00:27:57.466 --> 00:28:04.946
And I worked with a VP and a manager who reported to the VP.
00:28:05.266 --> 00:28:09.526
And the way I work, I will never sit down with people and just do a mediation.
00:28:09.526 --> 00:28:12.846
Because I find that people have, they've got a lot of feelings,
00:28:13.066 --> 00:28:18.966
they've got a lot of stories, they need to get support and share those separately.
00:28:19.546 --> 00:28:23.486
And then ever so gently, I start moving them towards, so how do you think the
00:28:23.486 --> 00:28:25.106
other person might see it?
00:28:25.226 --> 00:28:28.946
Or, well, have you thought about this as an alternative story kind of thing?
00:28:29.346 --> 00:28:33.706
So there were a number of issues with these two women.
00:28:33.966 --> 00:28:38.286
And one of the things I checked out, just because one of the women was Black,
00:28:38.286 --> 00:28:44.526
And so I wanted to see if she felt like there was racism going on and stay alert
00:28:44.526 --> 00:28:46.126
to see if I thought there was.
00:28:46.306 --> 00:28:50.426
And it turned out not to be a big issue, but it helped me build rapport with
00:28:50.426 --> 00:28:54.646
the woman who was African-American because she knew I was willing to go there
00:28:54.646 --> 00:28:58.006
with her and look at that as an issue.
00:28:58.006 --> 00:29:05.026
And what it came down to was, the vice president was so protective of this woman
00:29:05.026 --> 00:29:09.366
as a manager, that she would just assume she didn't have time or energy to do
00:29:09.366 --> 00:29:12.086
certain things and wouldn't even talk to her about it.
00:29:12.686 --> 00:29:16.606
And so she and I said, well, did you ask her?
00:29:17.371 --> 00:29:23.651
She wanted to do that or if that, you know, what she thought of that. And she said, no.
00:29:24.671 --> 00:29:31.031
And then with the woman who was the manager, she had a particular style of management.
00:29:31.031 --> 00:29:36.051
She was a very effective manager, but it was different from the vice president's style.
00:29:36.191 --> 00:29:41.131
And she expected the vice president to be the same kind of manager she was.
00:29:41.431 --> 00:29:46.451
And what it meant was she was expecting her to read her mind about what she wanted and needed.
00:29:46.671 --> 00:29:53.691
And I said, well, did you talk to her about how you see things and what you need? And she said, no.
00:29:55.351 --> 00:29:59.751
And you know what? With those two, I never actually met with the two of them
00:29:59.751 --> 00:30:01.831
together because they didn't need me.
00:30:02.351 --> 00:30:08.571
Those inner realizations of what their share was in what was going on were enough
00:30:08.571 --> 00:30:13.051
for them to have a very different conversation with each other and work things
00:30:13.051 --> 00:30:15.691
out and happy endings all around.
00:30:17.051 --> 00:30:21.091
You know, we can just so get, as you talked about before, get trapped in our own story.
00:30:21.251 --> 00:30:25.571
We have a narrative and it's reasonable. It's reasonable to us and we're reasonable people.
00:30:25.791 --> 00:30:29.491
And we have somebody else that we've decided they're acting unreasonable.
00:30:29.811 --> 00:30:33.431
And so the problem is always them. They're not doing what they ought to be doing.
00:30:33.691 --> 00:30:37.211
And very rarely do we ask that very simple question.
00:30:37.751 --> 00:30:40.731
What are they telling their best friend about this the circumstance
00:30:40.731 --> 00:30:43.711
what what are do do they know
00:30:43.711 --> 00:30:47.251
they're a villain is that what they're telling themselves right do
00:30:47.251 --> 00:30:50.531
they think they are unreasonable would they think i'm unreasonable
00:30:50.531 --> 00:30:57.091
and that just that stop that pause of that curiosity maybe i could ask them
00:30:57.091 --> 00:31:03.311
you know yeah or as you said before that this happens you know so much of conflict
00:31:03.311 --> 00:31:06.331
is miscommunication in one way or the other i mean that's not the only thing
00:31:06.331 --> 00:31:08.931
But that is a lot of it. It's a big one. It's a big one.
00:31:09.391 --> 00:31:12.971
And what I've found is sometimes managers or just colleagues,
00:31:13.231 --> 00:31:17.011
out of a desire to protect and respect people.
00:31:17.533 --> 00:31:21.073
They won't tell somebody something. I'll take that off. I'll do this.
00:31:21.193 --> 00:31:24.073
They don't need to know about it. Well, the other person feels disrespected
00:31:24.073 --> 00:31:25.933
because they don't know what's going on, right?
00:31:26.213 --> 00:31:31.433
And so it's this, you don't trust me. I respect you so much.
00:31:31.513 --> 00:31:32.513
I don't want to burden you.
00:31:32.713 --> 00:31:39.913
And so when we can get them to talk and see and think and really understand
00:31:39.913 --> 00:31:43.013
what's going on, it does clear a lot.
00:31:43.373 --> 00:31:50.133
Oh, yes. And, you know, in my teaching, I have come to spend a lot of time on
00:31:50.133 --> 00:31:56.633
story and the power of story and the ways we can shift our stories.
00:31:56.853 --> 00:32:03.153
I actually have this slide that shows, I think it's Hardy, you know, of Laurel and Hardy.
00:32:03.433 --> 00:32:06.273
There's a line in one of the movies that a friend of mine used to say,
00:32:06.413 --> 00:32:09.453
which is, that's my story and I'm stuck with it.
00:32:12.793 --> 00:32:18.913
I have the photo in the bubble of him saying that. And then I put another thing that says, false.
00:32:19.553 --> 00:32:21.913
We're not stuck with these stories.
00:32:22.613 --> 00:32:29.393
And I tell them a story of when I had a really wild, compared to what was the
00:32:29.393 --> 00:32:33.373
true story of what had happened with a client.
00:32:33.693 --> 00:32:36.953
And do you want to hear that one? Please, yes. Okay.
00:32:37.273 --> 00:32:42.653
So this was a new client. She was a manager who wanted to improve her communication skills.
00:32:42.953 --> 00:32:46.813
It was the first session. I was still kind of a little bit new,
00:32:46.853 --> 00:32:51.473
so I'd forgotten to invoice her ahead of time, which I usually do on individual
00:32:51.473 --> 00:32:54.013
clients. I have them pay ahead, but I'd forgotten.
00:32:54.353 --> 00:32:57.633
So about 10 minutes, it seemed like it was going well.
00:32:57.853 --> 00:33:03.073
And about 10 minutes before the session's supposed to end, all of a sudden,
00:33:03.073 --> 00:33:05.353
she's gone, disappears. peers.
00:33:05.853 --> 00:33:10.973
So I thought it was a tech issue. And I waited to see if she would come back. And,
00:33:11.502 --> 00:33:17.262
nothing. Tried to call her, couldn't get through. And then I emailed her the
00:33:17.262 --> 00:33:20.662
next day and all this didn't hear from her.
00:33:20.882 --> 00:33:25.842
And I got a real head of steam of like, here she's wanting to be a better manager
00:33:25.842 --> 00:33:27.782
and communicator. And she ghosted me.
00:33:28.002 --> 00:33:33.802
How could she do this? And how rude. And she didn't pay me. And I was really upset.
00:33:34.282 --> 00:33:40.242
And finally, I invoiced her one more time, wrote her one more time invoice.
00:33:40.422 --> 00:33:44.642
And then I thought, well, just chalk it up to whatever. I didn't think I was
00:33:44.642 --> 00:33:45.962
doing a bad job. I don't know.
00:33:46.662 --> 00:33:52.802
So a month later, I heard from her that at the moment she'd been on the Zoom
00:33:52.802 --> 00:33:58.322
call with me, a tree had fallen on her house, part of the roof,
00:33:58.822 --> 00:34:00.042
knocked out the electricity.
00:34:00.262 --> 00:34:03.362
She had to move out because it was uninhabitable.
00:34:04.602 --> 00:34:09.442
I was so glad she was okay and everything. But then I started laughing so hard
00:34:09.442 --> 00:34:14.322
because I thought, even if I never get paid in money, I have been richly rewarded.
00:34:14.322 --> 00:34:20.902
Because what a beautiful example of the story I was telling being so very different from reality.
00:34:21.822 --> 00:34:24.382
That is such a great example because I was right there with you.
00:34:24.482 --> 00:34:28.442
I mean, that's a reasonable narrative because we know that happens.
00:34:28.942 --> 00:34:34.782
Because it has probably never happened to you before that a client had a tree fall in their house.
00:34:34.982 --> 00:34:40.122
And right. I was talking to somebody once that said that in order to help them
00:34:40.122 --> 00:34:41.302
change their narrative,
00:34:41.302 --> 00:34:45.142
they play a game and now they're them and their spouse do this when they're
00:34:45.142 --> 00:34:50.582
in the car and somebody is what we would typically say acting rudely in another car.
00:34:50.742 --> 00:34:54.902
So cutting them off or whatever, that they decide to make up good stories about
00:34:54.902 --> 00:34:58.582
that person. Oh, they must be off to the hospital with their pregnant wife.
00:34:58.742 --> 00:35:04.682
Oh, they must be do curing, you know, to challenge that. we almost many times
00:35:04.682 --> 00:35:06.262
we give this negative story.
00:35:06.938 --> 00:35:12.038
Exactly. And, you know, I teach a workshop on hot buttons, emotional triggers.
00:35:12.618 --> 00:35:19.578
And I, with help from other experts, I came up with these five steps that you can go through.
00:35:19.878 --> 00:35:23.998
And one of them, you know, it's becoming conscious of the story you're telling.
00:35:24.418 --> 00:35:29.338
And is it true? Do you know it's true? Are you sure it's true kind of thing?
00:35:29.858 --> 00:35:33.758
And what might, you know, what story might they be telling as part of it?
00:35:33.758 --> 00:35:37.298
And then I also ask them to make up a better story.
00:35:37.458 --> 00:35:41.098
And I'd say, imagine, invent, ask, you know, whatever.
00:35:41.458 --> 00:35:46.038
And so I have them do a thing where they do exactly what you were talking about
00:35:46.038 --> 00:35:50.078
of coming up with a, and it really, I use that all the time.
00:35:50.358 --> 00:35:54.118
It really helps me when I notice I'm starting to, it's like,
00:35:54.278 --> 00:35:55.818
well, maybe, blah, blah, blah.
00:35:56.778 --> 00:36:02.518
Right. Because, you know, it's interesting, while most of us just sort of default to that, right?
00:36:02.518 --> 00:36:06.838
But we certainly don't want anybody else to think about our intentions that
00:36:06.838 --> 00:36:10.498
way, because we know we have good intentions. And we know even if we make a
00:36:10.498 --> 00:36:12.298
mistake, we weren't trying to.
00:36:12.998 --> 00:36:17.518
Exactly. And we know this about ourselves. And yet there's this curious thing
00:36:17.518 --> 00:36:21.658
where we just tend to, I don't want to impute everybody who's out there listening,
00:36:22.138 --> 00:36:28.298
but we tend to not extend that grace to others, the grace that we want extended to ourselves.
00:36:28.738 --> 00:36:31.858
It's true. And I have slides that,
00:36:32.018 --> 00:36:35.958
you know, when I teach this, it's like we judge ourselves by our intentions
00:36:35.958 --> 00:36:42.238
and we judge others by the impact it has on us and interpret that as being bad
00:36:42.238 --> 00:36:44.458
intentions because of the impact it had.
00:36:44.698 --> 00:36:50.678
But, you know, it's really not right to judge ourselves by intentions and other people by impact.
00:36:51.058 --> 00:36:55.238
Because, you know, if something cut you to the quick, it doesn't mean someone
00:36:55.238 --> 00:36:59.458
meant to do that. As I said, there are people who do mean to do that,
00:36:59.558 --> 00:37:05.078
but they're a smaller minority than you would think from watching the news.
00:37:06.272 --> 00:37:11.672
So, Lorraine, with all that you have learned and what you do now,
00:37:11.892 --> 00:37:19.052
if you were to be transported back to this difficult, toxic environment that you were in two years in,
00:37:19.552 --> 00:37:24.592
is there anything that you would have done differently that would have made a difference?
00:37:24.732 --> 00:37:28.512
I mean, sometimes organizational structures are just such that at that time,
00:37:28.712 --> 00:37:30.332
there isn't anything that can be done.
00:37:31.032 --> 00:37:35.712
So what advice would you give your young professor self?
00:37:36.272 --> 00:37:39.692
Well, you know, I've thought about this a lot, because I certainly know more
00:37:39.692 --> 00:37:43.612
about conflict management and bullying and mobbing than I knew then.
00:37:44.292 --> 00:37:49.852
What I've concluded in general is that I would have ended up in the same place
00:37:49.852 --> 00:37:55.672
no matter what, because it was so toxic, so oppositional to true,
00:37:55.852 --> 00:37:58.392
good teaching, education,
00:37:58.752 --> 00:38:02.352
honoring people who come from different traditions or whatever,
00:38:02.612 --> 00:38:04.072
who have something to contribute.
00:38:04.072 --> 00:38:11.252
It was so embedded, the toxicity in this organization, that I would always have ended up in trouble.
00:38:12.452 --> 00:38:16.952
You know, it would have been, I mean, there definitely were certain situations
00:38:16.952 --> 00:38:19.612
that if I had understood more,
00:38:19.892 --> 00:38:27.172
I could have handled a lot better of really knowing how to separate what I thought
00:38:27.172 --> 00:38:30.212
was going on from what their stories were.
00:38:30.952 --> 00:38:35.812
But, you know, I think what I would tell you, I would say, look for another job.
00:38:36.432 --> 00:38:41.552
Yeah. And, you know, that is really good advice. Because we have to be concerned
00:38:41.552 --> 00:38:42.932
with our physical and mental health.
00:38:43.552 --> 00:38:47.332
And yet, you know, I can imagine somebody saying, well, why did you stay so long?
00:38:47.452 --> 00:38:50.532
But you also said it wasn't always like that.
00:38:50.632 --> 00:38:53.012
You know, like, why does the battered person stay in that relationship?
00:38:53.032 --> 00:38:55.452
Because it isn't always like that. Exactly.
00:38:55.892 --> 00:38:58.872
And there's this good, and maybe I'm protecting this person.
00:38:58.872 --> 00:39:04.472
Or you were advocating for this group of students, and you saw the good,
00:39:04.572 --> 00:39:08.932
and there is all this sunshine, and yet the darkness comes.
00:39:09.332 --> 00:39:13.152
And that's why people say it's because of the good parts, but because of the protection.
00:39:13.632 --> 00:39:20.532
And also, I was an exploited adjunct worker for eight years.
00:39:20.752 --> 00:39:26.612
I mean, I wanted that tenure so bad, and it was still one of the hardest things
00:39:26.612 --> 00:39:28.712
I've ever done to walk away from tenure.
00:39:29.032 --> 00:39:32.252
Job security, summer's off, full benefits.
00:39:32.592 --> 00:39:37.312
And it was easy to talk, you know, to lie to myself.
00:39:37.872 --> 00:39:44.132
Well, it's not so bad. Well, now it's okay. And, you know, yeah, I wish I had...
00:39:45.054 --> 00:39:51.874
I was so afraid to leave. And, you know, I just have to be grateful for everything I learned.
00:39:51.894 --> 00:39:58.234
And it's been 15 years now, since I left and hallelujah for everyone.
00:39:59.494 --> 00:40:05.514
And I wasn't that young, but I was able to create a new career for myself and
00:40:05.514 --> 00:40:08.054
have enough money to live on and everything.
00:40:08.314 --> 00:40:13.754
And so to people who feel really stuck, I want to say transformation is always possible.
00:40:14.614 --> 00:40:18.574
Absolutely. Yeah, certainly at mid-age. So I taught philosophy for over 20 years
00:40:18.574 --> 00:40:21.654
and I left about three years ago to start my own business.
00:40:21.854 --> 00:40:25.714
We can always transform and change.
00:40:26.134 --> 00:40:31.674
And I hope nobody hears, and it's as easy as pie. It's not.
00:40:32.274 --> 00:40:37.774
But it's also really, it's not easy to stay in a difficult situation or stay
00:40:37.774 --> 00:40:39.974
in a place where you know you should be doing something else.
00:40:40.674 --> 00:40:45.494
And so we've got to pick our hard, and there are lots of options out there.
00:40:46.374 --> 00:40:50.694
And I want to say it's something that I talk about and I believe in,
00:40:51.114 --> 00:40:56.054
which is love, the role of love in resolving conflict and self-love,
00:40:56.214 --> 00:41:02.354
that all of us deserve to be in a working environment that honors us,
00:41:02.574 --> 00:41:05.654
that allows us to share our gifts with the world.
00:41:05.654 --> 00:41:14.034
And it can start with us of believing we deserve that and that no one deserves
00:41:14.034 --> 00:41:18.674
to be abused and to protect yourself however you can.
00:41:18.674 --> 00:41:26.694
And so you're not being an abuser because it's easy to become an abuser to yourself as well.
00:41:26.694 --> 00:41:31.754
But by getting support, by using spiritual, practical, and emotional tools,
00:41:31.774 --> 00:41:38.494
it's possible to gather that inner strength to make a change, to take a risk.
00:41:39.014 --> 00:41:43.994
It takes courage, but as both of us know, I think it's so worth it.
00:41:44.901 --> 00:41:50.021
And I think when we look at our lives, we think about what is a life well lived?
00:41:50.261 --> 00:41:55.941
Like, this is my life. What is it that I want to do with it? What is important to me?
00:41:56.081 --> 00:42:02.161
And I think a lot of times in our culture, we just have fewer and fewer places
00:42:02.161 --> 00:42:04.301
to ask those kinds of questions,
00:42:04.621 --> 00:42:12.241
to have quiet, to be able to think about what is it that I really want in this life?
00:42:12.901 --> 00:42:18.821
And if we just get pulled along by the hurriedness, there's lots of bustle, bustle, bustle.
00:42:18.901 --> 00:42:23.901
Our culture is very uncomfortable in silence and wants us to be super,
00:42:24.001 --> 00:42:28.221
super busy so that what do we do with those uncomfortable questions?
00:42:28.421 --> 00:42:31.561
Well, what is it that I want? And many times those aren't ready answers.
00:42:32.041 --> 00:42:35.921
And the thing is, it's not the same for everybody, right? So what brings me
00:42:35.921 --> 00:42:39.381
happiness and peace and harmony may be different from somebody else.
00:42:39.381 --> 00:42:45.521
But if we start to really think about what do I want?
00:42:45.641 --> 00:42:48.961
What is the good life? What does that look like for me?
00:42:49.561 --> 00:42:55.001
And really think about what does that look like in my professional and my private life?
00:42:55.701 --> 00:43:01.701
What am I doing? And I think asking those questions when somebody is in,
00:43:01.821 --> 00:43:06.461
I think, a boundary situation, these life-altering situations when things are
00:43:06.461 --> 00:43:09.381
going really wrong, either in our personal or professional life.
00:43:10.361 --> 00:43:16.721
It sounds terrible to say when you're in it, but it is an opportunity to wake
00:43:16.721 --> 00:43:22.001
up and say, come on, Mary, what do you want? What are you going to do next?
00:43:23.281 --> 00:43:26.461
It's not easy, but what else is there?
00:43:28.001 --> 00:43:31.561
Can I read you the very last paragraphs of my memoir?
00:43:31.741 --> 00:43:36.521
It's about my journey to loving myself, to finding right livelihood,
00:43:36.741 --> 00:43:38.141
to finding true love, too.
00:43:39.001 --> 00:43:44.341
And at the very end, I talk about how being of service is the deepest joy,
00:43:44.601 --> 00:43:47.181
of how much joy I have in doing that.
00:43:47.561 --> 00:43:52.041
And the very last paragraph is, we are all miracles.
00:43:52.461 --> 00:44:00.501
I always have hope and support and love and purpose and a beautiful sustaining path forward.
00:44:00.501 --> 00:44:06.801
I cannot control what happens next, but one day at a time, I can live a life
00:44:06.801 --> 00:44:09.961
beyond my wildest imaginings.
00:44:10.221 --> 00:44:16.241
Not a fantasy of perfection, but a real, beautiful, imperfect life filled with
00:44:16.241 --> 00:44:22.281
challenges, joy, love, satisfaction, angels, earthworms, and wonder.
00:44:22.561 --> 00:44:25.501
I wish that for all of you, dear readers.
00:44:25.861 --> 00:44:28.741
I truly am a miracle, and you are too.
00:44:29.553 --> 00:44:35.233
Oh, I love that so much. Please check out Lorraine's book, the full name of your book.
00:44:35.253 --> 00:44:39.853
It's Angels and Earthworms, An Unexpected Journey to Joy, Love, and Miracles.
00:44:40.153 --> 00:44:46.433
And I have information about how to get it on my website, conflictremedy.com. That's wonderful.
00:44:46.753 --> 00:44:50.913
Because it really was walking through the darkness, walking through,
00:44:51.113 --> 00:44:54.713
and some of it was inner stuff. It had nothing to do with that job,
00:44:54.833 --> 00:44:58.173
and some of it was from that job.
00:44:59.553 --> 00:45:04.513
But when I think about it, I'm just filled with tears and joy.
00:45:05.913 --> 00:45:08.833
I love that you use the word imperfection, right?
00:45:08.893 --> 00:45:12.513
So when we think about what is it that we want out of life, if we want something
00:45:12.513 --> 00:45:17.233
that's perfect, it's not reasonable, and you're not going to be able to attain it.
00:45:17.353 --> 00:45:21.373
And so you're going to be searching for the wrong things, and you're not going
00:45:21.373 --> 00:45:22.453
to be able to get it in the first place.
00:45:22.453 --> 00:45:31.793
But in realizing that what is the good life is warts and all, but it's the beauty,
00:45:31.973 --> 00:45:37.553
it's going through the mundane and accepting, accepting that there are hard
00:45:37.553 --> 00:45:48.093
times and accepting the wonder and that we all deserve to have love and to be loved and to act in,
00:45:48.253 --> 00:45:52.073
I believe, in principles according to love. Augustine says, love and do what you will.
00:45:52.353 --> 00:45:57.013
And that is at base my ethic, love and do what you will.
00:45:57.193 --> 00:46:00.853
Because if you're acting out of love doesn't mean you're going to be perfect,
00:46:00.853 --> 00:46:06.453
but you can reflect and realign your intentions and so that your intentions
00:46:06.453 --> 00:46:11.493
and your actions become synchronized. And it really does.
00:46:12.053 --> 00:46:16.473
Self-love is really important. I don't think our culture. It's not the same
00:46:16.473 --> 00:46:18.233
as, you know, being full of yourself.
00:46:18.513 --> 00:46:24.793
It's that idea of, you know, well, in my own spiritual practice,
00:46:25.013 --> 00:46:29.273
it's the goddess says to me, you are a spark of my divine flame.
00:46:29.273 --> 00:46:33.853
So, we have that spark of the divine that connects us to greater,
00:46:33.873 --> 00:46:37.573
and every single person we meet has that spark.
00:46:37.993 --> 00:46:43.413
And the idea, the goal is to try to meet spark to spark. Yeah.
00:46:43.966 --> 00:46:47.326
Absolutely. And I think, you know, if we're going to move forward in our work
00:46:47.326 --> 00:46:52.386
environments and have healthier work environments, the humanity has to be returned, right?
00:46:52.546 --> 00:46:56.366
So we don't want to be treated as objects or cogs in the machine.
00:46:56.366 --> 00:46:58.106
We want to be treated as persons.
00:46:58.826 --> 00:47:04.086
And I mean, it is the golden rule, then treat others as persons that are unique
00:47:04.086 --> 00:47:09.646
and messy, have wonderful days and are competent and have bad days, just like us.
00:47:10.226 --> 00:47:15.026
And that doesn't mean lack of responsibility. It means we are responsible ultimately
00:47:15.026 --> 00:47:19.506
for one another in the sense that we ought to treat people well and then expect
00:47:19.506 --> 00:47:23.206
to be treated well and not expect less for ourselves. Yes.
00:47:23.746 --> 00:47:30.506
I love what you said about mistakes, especially, you know, I used to teach immigrants
00:47:30.506 --> 00:47:32.206
English as a second language.
00:47:32.666 --> 00:47:37.326
And I started talking to them the first day of class about mistakes.
00:47:37.966 --> 00:47:42.546
So I would say to them, let's talk for a minute about mistakes in their eyes.
00:47:42.686 --> 00:47:47.266
They never had a teacher say it, you know, just talk about mistakes in general.
00:47:47.566 --> 00:47:54.266
I would say, you could sit in class all semester and not open your mouth and
00:47:54.266 --> 00:47:57.106
say anything and not write anything down.
00:47:57.286 --> 00:47:59.506
And you wouldn't make any mistakes.
00:47:59.706 --> 00:48:03.066
And their eyes would get bigger. And I'd say, but do you think I would be the
00:48:03.066 --> 00:48:07.666
best use of your time? do you think you would be learning and growing and getting
00:48:07.666 --> 00:48:09.366
everything you could out of the class?
00:48:09.566 --> 00:48:13.466
And they'd say, no. And I said, that's because humans make mistakes.
00:48:14.286 --> 00:48:19.306
I make mistakes every day, many of them. I'd expect you to make mistakes too.
00:48:20.446 --> 00:48:24.946
Gosh, I love that so much because when I think about why do people not have
00:48:24.946 --> 00:48:28.766
these difficult conversations, largely because they're afraid in one way or
00:48:28.766 --> 00:48:30.906
another, but they're afraid of saying the wrong thing.
00:48:31.086 --> 00:48:36.046
They don't know what to say. And so then we just don't, and it usually compounds and makes it work.
00:48:36.186 --> 00:48:43.506
And so having that space of, I care enough about you and myself that I'm willing to get it wrong.
00:48:44.026 --> 00:48:47.406
I'm willing to be misunderstood because I want to understand,
00:48:47.406 --> 00:48:52.386
and I don't want to live in the past, the tapes that I'm playing. I want to move forward.
00:48:53.326 --> 00:49:01.006
But it is that I love, recognizing that I do this as a living and I get stuff
00:49:01.006 --> 00:49:03.766
wrong in my personal life, in my professional life.
00:49:04.266 --> 00:49:07.286
And it stings because I care so much.
00:49:07.446 --> 00:49:15.486
Oh, well, keep on going and learning and admit and press forward for the goal,
00:49:15.646 --> 00:49:17.666
right? What is the goal to love your neighbor?
00:49:18.526 --> 00:49:25.866
And to love yourself. And, you know, when I talk about listening and conversations,
00:49:26.326 --> 00:49:32.486
difficult conversations, and of course, one of the tools is paraphrasing or,
00:49:32.486 --> 00:49:35.346
you know, reflecting back to someone what they said.
00:49:35.666 --> 00:49:40.406
And I always tell them, if you get it wrong, it still works.
00:49:40.406 --> 00:49:43.646
Because then they have a chance to say, no, that's not what I meant.
00:49:43.726 --> 00:49:47.606
But they still feel like you're paying attention and you're listening to them.
00:49:47.606 --> 00:49:51.626
And it's a beautiful example of how you can make a mistake and still get it right.
00:49:52.606 --> 00:49:56.046
That is wonderful. So, Lorraine, our time is drawing short.
00:49:56.206 --> 00:50:00.306
And my last question I'd like to ask is, when you look into the future of work,
00:50:00.406 --> 00:50:05.746
what do you think needs to happen so that not only are people treated with dignity
00:50:05.746 --> 00:50:07.306
and respect, that's just baseline.
00:50:07.546 --> 00:50:12.426
We want more than that. We want people to thrive and flourish at work.
00:50:12.546 --> 00:50:13.686
So what do you think needs to happen?
00:50:14.386 --> 00:50:16.466
Oh, well, how much time do we have now?
00:50:18.786 --> 00:50:23.666
One thing that has become increasingly important to me, and I know for lots
00:50:23.666 --> 00:50:27.566
of younger workers as well, is that work-life balance.
00:50:27.566 --> 00:50:32.726
I mean, I think that the goal to have effective,
00:50:33.426 --> 00:50:37.906
harmonious, well-functioning, innovative workplaces,
00:50:38.226 --> 00:50:44.506
there has to be a respect and recognition of the need for downtime,
00:50:44.506 --> 00:50:50.066
the need for people to not be thinking about work and being workaholics and
00:50:50.066 --> 00:50:53.466
obsessed with their value being only from work.
00:50:53.466 --> 00:50:56.026
So, that's one thing.
00:50:56.306 --> 00:51:02.826
And I think, you know, having a, I mean, we've been talking about this the whole
00:51:02.826 --> 00:51:07.146
time, but that basic understanding of what everyone does is valuable,
00:51:07.426 --> 00:51:10.686
that everyone is contributing. And
00:51:11.108 --> 00:51:16.868
can have great ideas that you would miss if you reject them because they have
00:51:16.868 --> 00:51:20.228
brown skin or they're too young or whatever it is.
00:51:20.948 --> 00:51:25.748
And so that's, and that feeling that we're all in this together,
00:51:26.088 --> 00:51:30.768
trying to create a beautiful product or, you know, create a beautiful service.
00:51:31.268 --> 00:51:38.488
And I think that managers and HR people, there's some now who are really well-trained
00:51:38.488 --> 00:51:45.008
and really get this stuff, But there's still, it's so uneven of who knows this stuff and who doesn't.
00:51:45.148 --> 00:51:52.008
And I think making that a criteria for people to be a CEO, for people to be
00:51:52.008 --> 00:51:53.988
a manager, for people to be a VP.
00:51:54.708 --> 00:52:00.388
That they have these conflict skills, that they have this compassion and understanding,
00:52:00.628 --> 00:52:03.108
and a lot of it is perfectly teachable.
00:52:03.108 --> 00:52:07.808
And there are more corporations who are recognizing that it does help the bottom
00:52:07.808 --> 00:52:12.268
line, even if they only care about the bottom line. And a lot of them care about other things, too.
00:52:12.548 --> 00:52:19.408
So that kind of vision where everyone's contributing, everyone's in it together,
00:52:19.708 --> 00:52:21.148
everyone's ideas count.
00:52:21.908 --> 00:52:27.988
And also, you have to have structures in place to deal with conflict when it comes up.
00:52:28.248 --> 00:52:30.528
There can't just be one person to talk to.
00:52:31.088 --> 00:52:33.208
You know, ombuds are a great idea.
00:52:33.788 --> 00:52:38.408
Having, you know, training just individuals who can help intervene with colleagues.
00:52:39.228 --> 00:52:45.008
If everyone has the mindset that we're going to work this out and we have skills
00:52:45.008 --> 00:52:49.508
to do it, it could transform what it's like to be at work.
00:52:49.948 --> 00:52:54.468
Absolutely. Gosh, I love everything you just said. Thank you so much for being
00:52:54.468 --> 00:52:57.448
on Conflict Managed. It was just a delight to meet you and chat with you.
00:52:57.848 --> 00:53:02.708
It was such a pleasure to talk with someone as knowledgeable and kind as yourself.
00:53:03.068 --> 00:53:07.628
So thank you very much. Take care. Thank you, Lorraine.
00:53:07.948 --> 00:53:12.308
Goodness gracious, I enjoyed our conversation so much. And I'm appreciative
00:53:12.308 --> 00:53:16.508
of the work that you are doing to try to help people have healthier work environments.
00:53:16.508 --> 00:53:19.408
I mean, what do we want to do but reduce pain at work?
00:53:19.568 --> 00:53:22.228
That's the business we're in, the peacemaking business.
00:53:22.868 --> 00:53:26.608
Conflict Managed is produced by Third Party Workplace Conflict Restoration Services
00:53:26.608 --> 00:53:28.288
and hosted by me, Merry Brown.
00:53:28.468 --> 00:53:31.708
You can find us online at 3PConflictrestoration.com.
00:53:31.988 --> 00:53:35.728
Come back. We have new episodes every Tuesday. If you haven't had a chance,
00:53:35.848 --> 00:53:40.128
check out my book, How to Be Unprofessional at Work, Tips to Ensure Failure.
00:53:40.308 --> 00:53:41.668
It's 80 Tips on What Not to Do.
00:53:42.168 --> 00:53:45.728
And instead looks at what we ought to do in order to have healthy work environments,
00:53:45.728 --> 00:53:47.068
or at least starts the conversation.
00:53:47.348 --> 00:53:51.108
I also encourage you to check out Lorraine's book. It looks absolutely fascinating.
00:53:51.688 --> 00:53:57.408
Our music is courtesy of Dove Pilot. And remember, conflict is normal and expected.
00:53:57.948 --> 00:53:59.468
Let's deal with it. Until next time.
00:53:59.440 --> 00:54:19.231
Music.