Dave Grohl, Krist Novoselic, and “In Utero” producer Steve Albini

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Take a side mission to McDonald's. From 11am Wastock Slash.
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Subject to availability. Participation varies. Hi, my name's Dave Grohl.
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And I feel, um, I feel good about being Conan's friend.
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That feels like a qualified good.
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Yeah, I'm still unsure.
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Hello, I'm Chris Novoselic, and I feel jazzy about being
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Conan O'Brien's friend.
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Yes.
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See? No pause, no anxiety, just joy, sir.
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My name is Steve Albini, and I feel anxiety about
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being Conan O'Brien's friend.
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You can feel that. It's palpable.
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And not uncommon, I'm sure.
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Hey, welcome to Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend. Of course,
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usually there's a lot of nonsensical bibble babble at.
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The top of the podcast. Today, there really isn't time
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for that. This is a very special episode. Recently, I
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had this very cool opportunity to fly to Chicago and
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sit down and chat with Nirvana members Dave Grohl and
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Chris Novoselic, along with producer, audio engineer Steve Albini, so
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that we could talk about the making of the classic
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album In Utero, which came out 30 years ago in
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September 1993. I remember this time very well because I
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was launching my late night show and The in utero
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music was really the soundtrack to that crazy time in
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my life. So really cool that my guest today sat
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with me and we chatted about this very important record.
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We covered a lot of ground, including what it was
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like to deal with the pressures of suddenly being the
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number one rock band in the world, how they could
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follow up the unexpected massive success of their album, Nevermind.
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And Dave and Chris also shared some memories of their
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friend and bandmate, Nirvana's creative leader, Kurt Cobain. So let's
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listen in. This is an honor. Thank you very much
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for gathering here. It's the 30th anniversary of In Utero.
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And my first question for the three of you was,
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does it feel like 30 years?
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Well, it's, you know, there's the time component. It's temporal, right?
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And I just, when I look back, I think there's
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somebody who's missing here. There's a person that should be
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here right now.
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Yeah.
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And Kurt Cobain's not here. And so, you know, just
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facing that, you know, and looking back at that time,
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I mean, it was a great time to make the record.
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I had a good time and we were really productive.
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And that was like the glue that kept the band
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together was just, we really liked to play together and
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we played well together.
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And we made this- Okay, this is absolute bullshit. And
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all of this is staying in. Chris Novoselic's watch just
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went off.
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What the fuck were you talking about just now? It
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made no sense.
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Can't keep his phone? Okay, Grohl, you're next. What's on
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you right now?
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I'm sorry I didn't understand that.
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Yeah. Hey, Siri, answer Conan's question.
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Hey, Siri, why did Hal kill the crew in 2001
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Space Oddity?
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It feels like just yesterday that we recorded. It'd be
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great if Siri had a really good Perky answer. So yes,
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you were saying before you were rudely interrupted by a computer.
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Well, I should have just had the AI spew it out.
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Yeah.
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But so, I mean, we could tell stories about the record,
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like how we made it. It was a good time.
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I mean, we were in this house in Granite Falls, Minnesota.
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Cannon Falls.
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Cannon Falls.
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Cannon Falls. Thank you. I stand for it. Siri, where does... Isn't.
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Granite Falls where Rocky and Bullwinkle are from?
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Probably.
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We'll pursue that later.
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And Boris.
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Yeah.
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Anyway.
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I remember I have a very clear memory of this
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album coming out because I had... There's, I think, a
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three-day difference between when In Utero drops and when I
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start my late-night television show.
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Oh, wow.
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The music on the album, because I was such a
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huge fan, being such a background music to... the terror
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and the weirdness of me starting a late night show
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from complete obscurity in 1993.
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That's similar to the Nirvana experience, I would imagine. At
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the time when the band became popular in 1991, we
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were so young. I think I was 21 or 22
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and you might have been 25 or something, but we
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were kids. When you talk about the amount of time,
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that's gone by. To me, it's not even so much
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about the years. It's about the experiences that just kind
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of led one after another, going from three kids that
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were basically living or touring out of a van to
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them becoming a huge band. And then in utero becoming
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the sort of the uncomfortable soundtrack to that sort of Um,
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transition by 1992, 1993, we were living in a different
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world than we were just 16 months before, you know.
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I was thinking about it today and I was thinking
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the only way that you can understand the making of
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in utero is to understand where you were at that time.
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The only way to understand that is to start with nevermind,
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which had it's Geffen records, modest expectations by the record label.
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I think they were going to be very happy if
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you sold 250,000 units.
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They printed 50,000 units of the CDs.
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50,000. 50,000.
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Thinking that should do it. And if we have to
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make more, we will. I talked to someone who was
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working at Geffen at the time. They said when Nevermind
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hit and started to blow up and then really blow up,
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at one point they had to stop making and manufacturing
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all of the other CDs online. the other artists on
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their label and turn them all over to making nevermind
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which sounds like something that just doesn't happen it was
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completely unprecedented and so that's the good news but with
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that comes all kinds of well you.
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You mentioned time conan and so like personally you know
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that was 30 years ago but that time from when
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nevermind released and then kurt died what happened in that
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span of time feels like it was 10 years.
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Yeah.
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It was so much ghost. There was so much intense. Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I was just thinking like, you know, for me, it
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took my entire childhood to prepare me for adolescence.
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Right.
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And then it took my entire adolescence and young adulthood
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prepare me for being gainfully employed and independent as a,
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as a person.
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Right.
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So like you have a long runway for like the
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major stages in your, in your life. And I, Like
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Nirvana went from being couch surfers to being the biggest
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band ever in the world in a span of about
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18 months, something like that. Like I can't fathom the
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kind of whiplash in every part of your life. Like
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you go from being, from having normal relationships with normal
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people who see you as another normal person to every
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time you walk in a room, everybody's mouth just drops
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open and you're, you're like this instantly you're the center
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of attention. And everyone has like expectations and questions and
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demands and they want to attach themselves to you. Like
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everything changes just from being a normal schmuck to being
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this like intensely public figure on whom other people have
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laid incredible expectations and, and on whom other people are
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like literally dependent. Their careers are dependent on your behavior
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and your whims and, So now they feel like they
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have to marshal that. They have to like participate in
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how you are as a person because of their self-interest.
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It's like this like uniquely perversely capitalist notion.
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And suddenly you guys are responsible for an industry. And
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the thing that occurs to me is that fame, money,
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success is great news for a lot of artists in
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the business, a lot of music artists. if you come
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from the punk world and you are religious adherence to
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the punk ethos, which you guys were and Kurt was,
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success is tricky because there's so many artists, if they
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make a lot of money, go out and get a Bentley.
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You know, Jesus, the Beatles were very comfortable going out
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and getting a Rolls Royce and painting.
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It was either that or paying 90% taxes.
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Right, right.
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Okay.
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Well, that's a good point. I hadn't thought of that.
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And we're going to do a second one when we
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get into taxation. But what I wanted to point out
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was there's a whole culture of, yay, we made it
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and we throw money around. There's almost a Shame and
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a trap that set if you're part of the punk ethos,
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isn't there?
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So I want to, this is something that I have
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run into over and over and over again is people
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outside the music scene, people who are not band members,
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not musicians, not part of the culture of punk at all.
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Ascribing to punks, this notion that success is bad and
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this notion that if you are successful, you are somehow
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bad and evil. And that it is that we don't
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want people to become successful. I have never experienced that
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genuinely from anybody in any, anyone in the, in the
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punk scene that wasn't purely a jealousy expert, an expression
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of jealousy.
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Right.
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On the whole Nirvana's fans wanted Nirvana to become successful
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and self-sustaining and be loved. So I just wanted to
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clear the air and say like, like there was no
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animosity toward Nirvana, Nirvana.
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I'm talking about the band itself.
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So, you know, before we made the record, Nevermind, we
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were pretty much living in squalor, right? So I was
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living with Kurt in this tiny little apartment and there
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were just corn dog sticks and cigarettes all over the place.
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And it was like fucking disgusting. I would have done
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anything to have my own apartment, you know, like, and
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to be able to do that through making music. I
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know that the transition happened really quickly, but it didn't happen.
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You didn't just wind up with a million dollars in
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your mailbox the next day. It went from being like, uh,
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pretty and went up to $ 15 a day. I was like,
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Oh my God, that means I can get two packs
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of cigarettes or whatever. And then, you know, went from,
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this couldn't possibly get better. Like, I honestly, exactly. I'm
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saying that's how it feels. We're staying in a motel,
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you know, I'm sharing a room with Kurt or whatever,
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but it's not someone's floor. And then just small things.
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And then from September to December of 1991 is when
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everything really blew up. And, um, I didn't feel conflicted
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or any guilt or shame in knowing like, Oh, I just,
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I just paid off my mother's house or I, I
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bought my mother a car or, um, now I can
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afford to, you know, buy a new pair of shoes
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or whatever it was. I didn't. And I think the
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reason why I, I, I personally didn't feel so conflicted
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about everything was because I knew that the band hadn't
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done anything outside of our, our, our, our true selves to,
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to get there. We just did the thing that we
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did and then it happened. And so, um, That was
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just my experience after. And then I got to move
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in with another friend and have a house. And I remember,
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it's funny you talk about the Bentley. Remember that fucking
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weird Yugoslavian car that you bought?
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Did you own a Yugo?
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No.
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Now, what was it? Didn't you get some car? Didn't
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you buy some car that was like this tiny thing?
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Oh, the Renault Dauphine.
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Somebody gave it to me. Oh, right.
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Wait, that was your rock star moment? Is it someone
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gave you a Renault Dolphine, which sounds like a shoe
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more than a car.
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I barely fit in it. I got it running pretty good.
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But yeah, I mean, of course, we didn't go straight
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to the Bentleys and stuff like that. But I mean,
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I was very happy to have finally been able to
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really support myself as a musician, doing the thing that
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I love to do.
250
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There is, and this is what's getting us towards in utero,
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is there is a lot of stuff that comes with
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being the number one rock band. Suddenly there's all this
253
00:13:33.799 --> 00:13:38.100
tabloid noise in Kurt and Courtney's life that's creating a
254
00:13:38.139 --> 00:13:41.039
lot of drama. And then the other thing that starts
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00:13:41.059 --> 00:13:45.740
to creep in is a dissatisfaction with Nevermind being too slick.
256
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And now where does that come from?
257
00:13:48.539 --> 00:13:50.639
Well, Kurt, you'd have to ask him about that.
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00:13:51.080 --> 00:13:51.480
Ask Kurt.
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00:13:51.860 --> 00:13:56.169
Ask him. Well, see, we were talking about just like
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the pressure being the sudden fame. And then Kurt, he
261
00:14:00.269 --> 00:14:02.610
got more attention because he was out front.
262
00:14:02.690 --> 00:14:03.690
Yeah. Okay.
263
00:14:03.750 --> 00:14:07.200
So then he felt more pressure. Okay. Then, yeah, he
264
00:14:07.240 --> 00:14:10.320
started to do heroin and that he loved drugs.
265
00:14:10.620 --> 00:14:10.799
Mm-hmm.
266
00:14:11.330 --> 00:14:15.409
And there's a price for that. And that complicated things
267
00:14:15.450 --> 00:14:17.669
a lot. Remember, Dave and I went to go see
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00:14:17.690 --> 00:14:20.610
him in the rehab. He was in a rehab. And
269
00:14:20.649 --> 00:14:22.350
we go, how are you doing? It was so good
270
00:14:22.370 --> 00:14:24.460
to see him. And he was doing all right. And
271
00:14:24.509 --> 00:14:27.740
he goes, you know that Steve Jones came to visit me?
272
00:14:28.379 --> 00:14:30.700
And he didn't have to do that. I mean, that
273
00:14:30.740 --> 00:14:32.639
was really nice. It's from the Sex Pistols.
274
00:14:32.659 --> 00:14:33.360
Steve Jones came.
275
00:14:33.779 --> 00:14:36.159
And we're like, what's he like? Kurt's like, he was
276
00:14:36.179 --> 00:14:37.220
wearing Birkenstocks.
277
00:14:40.870 --> 00:14:44.889
Talk about a fucking sellout.
278
00:14:44.909 --> 00:14:48.029
The artist for the Sex Pistols is wearing Birkenstocks. Yeah,
279
00:14:48.210 --> 00:14:48.789
it's very upsetting.
280
00:14:48.809 --> 00:14:51.200
But he went to the rehab to see. He didn't
281
00:14:51.240 --> 00:14:53.220
have to do that, but it was nice that he,
282
00:14:53.259 --> 00:14:55.840
that was a nice thing to do. So, you know,
283
00:14:55.879 --> 00:14:57.600
just dealing with that stuff, I mean.
284
00:14:59.039 --> 00:15:02.779
There's that nonsense, but were you guys, because I know
285
00:15:03.139 --> 00:15:08.429
Kurt was very vocal about thinking that Nevermind, yes, huge hit,
286
00:15:08.669 --> 00:15:11.149
but he thought the production was too slick. And that
287
00:15:11.909 --> 00:15:14.100
is something that he said at the time. He may
288
00:15:14.120 --> 00:15:16.279
have changed his mind about that later on had he lived.
289
00:15:16.799 --> 00:15:20.759
It must have been like 1989, 1990. We were cruising
290
00:15:20.820 --> 00:15:23.740
in this van and I think we were listening to
291
00:15:23.759 --> 00:15:26.860
Surfer Rosa. And then Kurt was sitting there in the
292
00:15:26.899 --> 00:15:29.159
chair and he raises his finger and makes a decree.
293
00:15:29.179 --> 00:15:31.519
He goes, this shall be our snare sound.
294
00:15:31.539 --> 00:15:32.100
Yeah.
295
00:15:34.730 --> 00:15:35.950
Surfer Rosa, the pixies.
296
00:15:35.990 --> 00:15:37.649
The pixies, Surfer Rosa, yeah.
297
00:15:37.669 --> 00:15:39.409
Who does that? Yours truly.
298
00:15:39.429 --> 00:15:43.220
And then that's the, there you go. We ended up
299
00:15:43.799 --> 00:15:44.740
working with Steve.
300
00:15:45.759 --> 00:15:47.419
You know what I think? I think, as you were
301
00:15:47.440 --> 00:15:53.720
talking earlier about feeling uncomfortable with this new world of
302
00:15:53.759 --> 00:15:57.529
Nirvana fame and stuff like that, I think that when
303
00:15:57.809 --> 00:16:01.950
things did become huge, that we all sort of kind
304
00:16:01.970 --> 00:16:04.929
of retreated and sort of clung to the things that
305
00:16:04.970 --> 00:16:10.070
we felt most attached to, whether it was weird old
306
00:16:10.110 --> 00:16:13.570
cars or going back to Virginia or whatever it may
307
00:16:13.590 --> 00:16:16.340
have been for Kurt. But always musically, I think that
308
00:16:16.940 --> 00:16:20.539
whether it was Kurt feeling like Nevermind may have been
309
00:16:20.779 --> 00:16:24.960
too overproduced or something, we had always listened to records
310
00:16:24.980 --> 00:16:27.299
that Steve had made. I remember when I first moved
311
00:16:27.360 --> 00:16:30.639
in with Kurt, I think he only had like four records.
312
00:16:30.980 --> 00:16:33.600
It was like Well, he had a Mark Lanigan record,
313
00:16:34.389 --> 00:16:37.519
there was Surfer Rosa, there was a Breeders' Pod, and
314
00:16:37.559 --> 00:16:40.360
a Jesus Lizard record. And that was just the sound
315
00:16:40.440 --> 00:16:45.340
that we felt most, that we loved. And I think
316
00:16:45.379 --> 00:16:48.279
we had probably wanted to work with Steve before we
317
00:16:48.299 --> 00:16:50.840
made Nevermind, but we wound up making it with Butch.
318
00:16:51.919 --> 00:16:54.179
Who, it should be said, is a divine album.
319
00:16:54.200 --> 00:16:57.820
Yeah, yeah. Butch Vig as the producer on Nevermind.
320
00:16:57.840 --> 00:16:58.840
Yeah. And.
321
00:16:59.730 --> 00:17:01.710
you know, what you're bringing up is that kind of
322
00:17:01.750 --> 00:17:05.230
in the background all along, there was this sound that
323
00:17:05.410 --> 00:17:09.049
Steve Albini was getting with the Pixies, with the breeders
324
00:17:09.490 --> 00:17:11.450
that spoke to you guys. And so my question for
325
00:17:11.769 --> 00:17:14.769
you guys is what is that sound? Okay, it's the snare.
326
00:17:14.849 --> 00:17:17.049
Is it the recording of the drums or is it
327
00:17:17.109 --> 00:17:18.509
something bigger than that?
328
00:17:18.670 --> 00:17:22.789
It's the collective sound of all of those things where
329
00:17:23.430 --> 00:17:26.390
not one seems to be kind of in front of
330
00:17:26.430 --> 00:17:29.349
the other. To me, it always sounds really centered. where
331
00:17:29.509 --> 00:17:31.789
it's like the vocal isn't jumping ahead of everything else
332
00:17:31.930 --> 00:17:34.630
or things are like riding up and down. It sounds
333
00:17:34.859 --> 00:17:40.000
like the sound of a group in a space and
334
00:17:40.420 --> 00:17:44.559
really just natural. I mean, I think, who was it
335
00:17:44.599 --> 00:17:48.279
that talked about distance in recording? Well, Steve will talk
336
00:17:48.299 --> 00:17:52.809
your ear off. Well, yeah, but like how dips... Distance
337
00:17:52.869 --> 00:17:55.950
creates depth. If you listen to a lot of the
338
00:17:56.430 --> 00:17:59.740
drum sounds with Steve's stuff, there is this sense of
339
00:18:00.019 --> 00:18:02.700
distance in a way that gives the sound more depth.
340
00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:07.240
That's what I think. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Steve,
341
00:18:07.299 --> 00:18:09.869
it felt like what you were going for and what
342
00:18:09.890 --> 00:18:13.730
you were about was you wanted the band to sound
343
00:18:13.849 --> 00:18:16.769
like the band. You wanted them to sound like This
344
00:18:16.829 --> 00:18:19.269
is how they sound when they're in a room and
345
00:18:19.289 --> 00:18:22.190
they're together and something real is happening. You want it.
346
00:18:22.210 --> 00:18:25.490
You don't want all that separation. You don't want double tracking.
347
00:18:25.869 --> 00:18:27.940
You don't want a lot of fall to raw and nonsense.
348
00:18:28.279 --> 00:18:30.680
Well, there is a I mean, there's seems to be
349
00:18:30.700 --> 00:18:32.680
said setting up as a kind of a compare and
350
00:18:32.720 --> 00:18:35.859
contrast between me and Butch Vig. And I should point
351
00:18:35.900 --> 00:18:39.759
out that Butch Vig's production aesthetic and his style. like
352
00:18:39.859 --> 00:18:43.579
approach as an engineer was like formed in precisely the
353
00:18:43.599 --> 00:18:47.619
same way that mine was doing budget records for dead
354
00:18:47.700 --> 00:18:51.759
broke bands in a short amount of time, like trying
355
00:18:51.779 --> 00:18:54.720
to be as efficient as possible with, with not just
356
00:18:54.839 --> 00:18:57.359
with the time, but with the materials and like, you're
357
00:18:57.400 --> 00:18:59.319
hitting your snare drum head so hard, we're going to
358
00:18:59.339 --> 00:19:02.269
have to buy a new snare drum head. So like,
359
00:19:02.589 --> 00:19:04.470
let me, let me put some gaffer on there or
360
00:19:04.509 --> 00:19:06.450
something to keep so that we don't split the snare
361
00:19:06.470 --> 00:19:10.960
drum head that like, His aesthetic and his techniques are
362
00:19:11.019 --> 00:19:13.859
very much in the same school as mine. The thing
363
00:19:13.880 --> 00:19:18.480
that I remember most about the Nirvana-Butch connection is that
364
00:19:18.579 --> 00:19:22.220
when we got to the studio to start work on
365
00:19:22.740 --> 00:19:25.779
the In Utero album, Kurt had a cassette of the
366
00:19:25.819 --> 00:19:29.599
rough mix that Butch had given him of the Nevermind Sessions.
367
00:19:29.700 --> 00:19:32.480
It wasn't the finished album that was in the stores.
368
00:19:32.599 --> 00:19:36.089
It was the cassette of the tracks that that Butch
369
00:19:36.109 --> 00:19:40.619
had done without any like fanciful mixing, without any like, yeah,
370
00:19:40.880 --> 00:19:43.700
just like these are the tracks. And he played that
371
00:19:43.880 --> 00:19:45.849
to get familiar with the sound of the studio. He
372
00:19:45.869 --> 00:19:47.609
played it through the speakers and I thought it sounded
373
00:19:47.710 --> 00:19:49.690
fucking fantastic. Do you guys know what I'm, do you
374
00:19:49.710 --> 00:19:49.970
remember that?
375
00:19:50.279 --> 00:19:50.500
No.
376
00:19:51.019 --> 00:19:53.839
I thought it sounded fucking great. And I don't remember,
377
00:19:54.259 --> 00:19:58.200
forgive me, I don't remember hearing the Nevermind album and thinking, well,
378
00:19:58.259 --> 00:20:01.440
this sounds fucking great. It didn't bring to mind any
379
00:20:01.480 --> 00:20:03.359
of the records that Butch had done that I was
380
00:20:03.420 --> 00:20:06.539
familiar with that were the records that made his reputation
381
00:20:06.579 --> 00:20:08.849
and probably made Nirvana want to work with him in
382
00:20:08.869 --> 00:20:09.440
the first place.
383
00:20:09.680 --> 00:20:12.000
So to be fair, to just go back to that time,
384
00:20:12.380 --> 00:20:16.160
Nevermind is out there. They're the biggest band in the world.
385
00:20:16.279 --> 00:20:19.660
They're looking to make their follow-up album. Um, at that time,
386
00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:21.710
what did you, were you a fan? Were you a
387
00:20:21.730 --> 00:20:22.390
fan of Nirvana?
388
00:20:22.670 --> 00:20:25.990
I wasn't super familiar with Nirvana. I had heard like
389
00:20:26.029 --> 00:20:28.430
the ubiquitous stuff that everyone that was being played on
390
00:20:28.450 --> 00:20:30.670
the radio and all the clubs and like every gig
391
00:20:30.710 --> 00:20:33.069
you would go to as you were loading in the
392
00:20:33.109 --> 00:20:35.970
sound guy would put Nevermind on to crank the PA
393
00:20:36.009 --> 00:20:38.559
and balance the PA. So I had heard the album
394
00:20:38.819 --> 00:20:42.079
many times sort of secondhand, right? I wasn't a student
395
00:20:42.099 --> 00:20:44.099
of Nirvana. If I'd ever seen him play live, I'm
396
00:20:44.140 --> 00:20:45.309
certain I would have become a fan.
397
00:20:45.549 --> 00:20:49.670
So the decision is made. We would like Steve Albini
398
00:20:49.769 --> 00:20:54.230
to produce this record. And most people, I think anyone
399
00:20:54.269 --> 00:20:57.960
else on the planet in that position would have said, please, please, please, please, please.
400
00:20:58.480 --> 00:21:02.099
And you write this letter when you find out that
401
00:21:02.119 --> 00:21:04.960
they're interested in And this letter is not a please
402
00:21:05.019 --> 00:21:08.940
hire me letter. It's a great letter, but it is a,
403
00:21:09.259 --> 00:21:12.400
I'll do it, but here are my conditions letter, which
404
00:21:12.460 --> 00:21:14.740
is really, which is, first of all, this is a compliment.
405
00:21:14.759 --> 00:21:16.220
Sounds like that Ethereum thing.
406
00:21:16.259 --> 00:21:19.049
Yeah, yeah, it is. I mean, it really is a,
407
00:21:20.500 --> 00:21:23.000
it's a bit of a screed about what you believe,
408
00:21:23.460 --> 00:21:25.440
and I will do this if you do it on
409
00:21:25.509 --> 00:21:27.529
my terms and if you're willing to do it. And
410
00:21:27.569 --> 00:21:31.630
then you shockingly say, I'm not taking points on this record.
411
00:21:32.410 --> 00:21:34.170
I don't want to do that. You said, I want
412
00:21:34.190 --> 00:21:36.390
to be paid like a plumber. Just give me some
413
00:21:36.430 --> 00:21:38.670
money up front. But you thought it was immoral to
414
00:21:38.690 --> 00:21:39.769
get points in the record.
415
00:21:40.009 --> 00:21:44.230
Yeah. I mean, the, the, the way that record producers
416
00:21:44.319 --> 00:21:47.599
and recording people are compensated in at that time in
417
00:21:47.660 --> 00:21:52.099
particular was a trick of accounting that shifted the cost
418
00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:55.140
away from the label and toward the band made the
419
00:21:55.180 --> 00:21:58.970
band ultimately responsible for whatever the producer got paid. And it,
420
00:21:59.869 --> 00:22:02.349
It didn't come out of the general proceeds of the
421
00:22:02.410 --> 00:22:05.500
record the way it would in an independent labels contract,
422
00:22:05.519 --> 00:22:08.240
for example. It came specifically out of the money that
423
00:22:08.279 --> 00:22:11.259
would otherwise have gone to the band. Like literally every
424
00:22:11.299 --> 00:22:13.809
dollar I would get paid would mean that was a
425
00:22:13.829 --> 00:22:16.069
dollar that Dave didn't get or Chris didn't get or
426
00:22:16.109 --> 00:22:18.049
Kurt didn't get. I mean, that's just the way that
427
00:22:18.250 --> 00:22:20.390
that's the way the accounting works and those kinds of deals.
428
00:22:20.630 --> 00:22:23.710
And I've. I think that's ethically untenable. I don't, I,
429
00:22:23.910 --> 00:22:26.700
and I, I'll admit that I think less of people
430
00:22:26.740 --> 00:22:29.119
who opt to do things that way. I think it's
431
00:22:29.619 --> 00:22:32.700
on its face. It's absurd. Like I work on a
432
00:22:32.759 --> 00:22:35.220
record for a few days and then for the rest
433
00:22:35.259 --> 00:22:37.839
of your fucking life, you have to keep paying me.
434
00:22:38.140 --> 00:22:39.849
Like you get me a, give me a chip off
435
00:22:39.869 --> 00:22:41.029
of every nickel that you earn.
436
00:22:41.049 --> 00:22:43.049
I'd like you to talk to my agent and my manager,
437
00:22:43.349 --> 00:22:43.809
if you would.
438
00:22:54.650 --> 00:22:56.230
Good nights are about the people.
439
00:22:57.069 --> 00:22:57.529
The laughs.
440
00:22:58.049 --> 00:23:00.819
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455
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456
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463
00:24:16.950 --> 00:24:19.549
Speaking about this letter very specifically, the letter sort of
464
00:24:19.609 --> 00:24:22.569
acquired a notoriety of its own because it was included
465
00:24:22.630 --> 00:24:25.289
in the some of the reissue materials. And it was
466
00:24:25.309 --> 00:24:27.609
sort of for the first time the general public got
467
00:24:27.650 --> 00:24:29.009
to read this correspondence.
468
00:24:29.049 --> 00:24:29.190
Right.
469
00:24:29.529 --> 00:24:32.529
What happened was that I'd had several phone conversations with Kurt.
470
00:24:32.950 --> 00:24:35.549
about the prospect of me working on a record. And
471
00:24:35.569 --> 00:24:37.769
we talked all of this stuff through. So some of
472
00:24:37.789 --> 00:24:39.589
the things in there that sound kind of flippant or
473
00:24:39.630 --> 00:24:42.490
sound like I'm being kind of brusque, that's based on
474
00:24:42.529 --> 00:24:45.819
a conversational awareness between me and Kurt.
475
00:24:46.059 --> 00:24:49.119
Were you guys united that, yep, Steve is the guy?
476
00:24:49.180 --> 00:24:55.019
And were you united in this new direction, stripped down,
477
00:24:55.119 --> 00:24:57.940
leaner to do in utero? Was that like, you felt
478
00:24:57.960 --> 00:25:00.180
like all three of you were united in that idea?
479
00:25:00.200 --> 00:25:00.289
Yeah.
480
00:25:00.609 --> 00:25:03.950
Yeah. So, you know, it's funny. We were in between,
481
00:25:03.970 --> 00:25:07.200
I guess it might have been 1992 when we went
482
00:25:07.220 --> 00:25:11.339
down to Brazil. We had that week off in Brazil. Oh, yeah.
483
00:25:11.599 --> 00:25:14.400
We were playing. This festival is called the Hollywood Rock
484
00:25:14.440 --> 00:25:17.220
Festival in Rio and Sao Paulo. So there were two shows,
485
00:25:17.339 --> 00:25:18.960
one weekend in Rio, one in Sao Paulo. And then
486
00:25:18.980 --> 00:25:21.180
we had a whole week off in between. And we
487
00:25:21.200 --> 00:25:24.119
had nothing to do. So we found this studio that
488
00:25:24.140 --> 00:25:25.829
I think belonged to the record company.
489
00:25:25.869 --> 00:25:26.420
Yeah, it was a record company.
490
00:25:26.440 --> 00:25:28.950
And they're like, hey, there's this nice old Neve Borden here.
491
00:25:29.170 --> 00:25:31.250
You're not doing anything. So we set up our gear
492
00:25:31.670 --> 00:25:35.309
and just started fucking around, maybe for two or three days.
493
00:25:35.890 --> 00:25:39.809
And I think maybe Kurt had some riffs and some
494
00:25:39.869 --> 00:25:42.750
things here and there. A lot of it was just jamming,
495
00:25:43.190 --> 00:25:48.170
but it was great because it was just the three
496
00:25:48.210 --> 00:25:52.559
of us in this room with nothing but time to
497
00:25:52.980 --> 00:25:56.440
fuck around and no one to tell us what to
498
00:25:56.480 --> 00:25:58.700
do or how to do it. And I think that
499
00:25:58.740 --> 00:26:02.960
that was kind of the beginning of the vibe coming
500
00:26:03.019 --> 00:26:04.819
to record with Steve. Like there was it.
501
00:26:05.430 --> 00:26:08.490
There was a laundry room. There was Barrett's basement with
502
00:26:08.549 --> 00:26:09.210
his laundry room.
503
00:26:09.230 --> 00:26:10.759
Yeah, in my house, in my basement.
504
00:26:10.910 --> 00:26:13.680
Yeah. And there was a washer and dryer there. And
505
00:26:13.720 --> 00:26:15.740
we set up and we just, we did these like
506
00:26:15.799 --> 00:26:17.059
improvisation songs.
507
00:26:17.400 --> 00:26:20.960
Again, I think that a lot of this was meant
508
00:26:21.400 --> 00:26:24.039
as some sort of return to us feeling like we
509
00:26:24.079 --> 00:26:28.990
still own ourselves or we own, we're still the same people.
510
00:26:29.670 --> 00:26:32.109
We're still the same band and we're not to be
511
00:26:32.150 --> 00:26:34.599
changed by all the other crazy bullshit. And we felt
512
00:26:34.640 --> 00:26:37.609
most comfortable doing it like that. It's funny, I, having
513
00:26:37.630 --> 00:26:39.849
been in the Foo Fighters now for so long, when
514
00:26:39.869 --> 00:26:42.150
I think about being in Nirvana, it was just, when
515
00:26:42.170 --> 00:26:44.190
we got in a room to play music, it was
516
00:26:44.309 --> 00:26:48.099
so fucking simple. There was all of that other complication
517
00:26:48.150 --> 00:26:51.460
just disappeared. Literally, like, put my drums in the back
518
00:26:51.500 --> 00:26:54.119
of my car, go to Chris's house, then go to
519
00:26:54.160 --> 00:26:56.420
the basement and put it in there and start playing.
520
00:26:57.000 --> 00:26:59.720
Even though people consider us to be this giant band,
521
00:27:00.200 --> 00:27:03.180
we still functioned as we always had. when it came
522
00:27:03.220 --> 00:27:05.480
to making music. So I think that's, I think the
523
00:27:05.519 --> 00:27:08.079
Brazil stuff is really, that's where I started to get
524
00:27:08.119 --> 00:27:10.160
a vibe or a feel of what was going to
525
00:27:10.220 --> 00:27:12.160
happen when we went to record with Steve. Those were
526
00:27:12.200 --> 00:27:13.930
considered like demos, you know.
527
00:27:14.029 --> 00:27:17.869
The magic was the three of you guys working together
528
00:27:18.369 --> 00:27:22.269
and not being really interfered with that much. And so
529
00:27:22.289 --> 00:27:25.250
you have this weird trip to South America where accidentally
530
00:27:25.650 --> 00:27:26.869
you get to reconnect with that.
531
00:27:26.890 --> 00:27:27.349
Yeah.
532
00:27:27.509 --> 00:27:30.160
Which is pretty amazing. And then you think, okay, we
533
00:27:30.200 --> 00:27:32.190
think we, We think we know the guy who can
534
00:27:32.230 --> 00:27:35.890
do this. And that takes us to the studio where
535
00:27:35.910 --> 00:27:43.200
you record this, which is 50 miles south of Minneapolis.
536
00:27:43.240 --> 00:27:45.519
Yeah, I had been there a couple of times already.
537
00:27:45.539 --> 00:27:49.660
I have a question. This studio is called Pachyderm Studio.
538
00:27:50.240 --> 00:27:52.200
It was amazing. The house was beautiful. It was like
539
00:27:52.240 --> 00:27:55.160
a Frank Lloyd Wright looking thing. It was like the
540
00:27:55.200 --> 00:28:01.440
Brady Bunch house. But Frank kind of Am I crazy
541
00:28:01.980 --> 00:28:05.619
or was this place owned by some kid that inherited
542
00:28:05.660 --> 00:28:08.589
a bunch of money from his rich family because his
543
00:28:08.670 --> 00:28:14.359
rich family was the family that invented that smoked brown.
544
00:28:14.200 --> 00:28:18.839
Plastic desk organizer desk organizer yes the story you're relaying
545
00:28:18.900 --> 00:28:21.039
is 100 true the.
546
00:28:20.960 --> 00:28:22.839
Guy that no one could make that up i thought
547
00:28:22.900 --> 00:28:24.339
steve made it up and told it to me.
548
00:28:24.460 --> 00:28:26.579
So i want to set the picture for people because
549
00:28:27.079 --> 00:28:28.480
one of you i don't know who it was described
550
00:28:28.500 --> 00:28:32.619
it as a gulag meaning you go i think it was.
551
00:28:32.500 --> 00:28:36.160
You chris reading solzhenitsyn like he's walking through the gulag
552
00:28:36.200 --> 00:28:38.779
and he can hear the snow crunch beneath his.
553
00:28:39.039 --> 00:28:42.289
Boots yeah beneath his boots and he's And it's like
554
00:28:42.509 --> 00:28:46.630
an ancient Soviet detention center, but a lot of it
555
00:28:46.670 --> 00:28:47.309
makes sense.
556
00:28:47.349 --> 00:28:48.329
With an indoor swimming pool.
557
00:28:48.349 --> 00:28:49.670
With an indoor swimming pool. It was nice. Which a
558
00:28:49.730 --> 00:28:52.529
lot of gulags had, to be fair. The nicer gulags
559
00:28:52.569 --> 00:28:54.940
had it. But Steve, it's almost like you were offering
560
00:28:54.980 --> 00:28:59.019
them a sensory deprivation tank, saying, come to this middle
561
00:28:59.059 --> 00:29:02.940
of nowhere. You were booked because you're huge stars, number
562
00:29:03.000 --> 00:29:05.240
one band in the world. You're booked as the Simon
563
00:29:05.319 --> 00:29:05.940
Ritchie group.
564
00:29:06.240 --> 00:29:06.500
Oh, yeah.
565
00:29:06.619 --> 00:29:10.069
There was a general concern about Kurt having a relapse.
566
00:29:10.720 --> 00:29:12.920
So they didn't want him to be in an urban
567
00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:18.980
setting that had another layer of concern, which is that like,
568
00:29:19.700 --> 00:29:21.920
I shouldn't even tell them that Nirvana is coming to
569
00:29:21.940 --> 00:29:26.680
their studio because even if only one person tells one person,
570
00:29:26.740 --> 00:29:29.690
that one person is going to tell for sure one person.
571
00:29:30.089 --> 00:29:31.869
And that one person is for sure going to tell
572
00:29:31.910 --> 00:29:33.910
a hundred people. And before you know it, there's going
573
00:29:33.930 --> 00:29:35.890
to be a fucking news truck and a bunch of
574
00:29:35.910 --> 00:29:39.089
teenagers outside this studio, no matter where it is. Right.
575
00:29:39.470 --> 00:29:41.569
And we got away with it for kind of a
576
00:29:41.589 --> 00:29:43.430
long time. Like it was, I think the end of
577
00:29:43.490 --> 00:29:47.069
the first week, some local kid showed up at the
578
00:29:47.109 --> 00:29:50.259
front door because he didn't. saw Kurt at the supermarket
579
00:29:50.299 --> 00:29:51.059
or something.
580
00:29:50.759 --> 00:29:52.559
On a snowmobile. Yeah.
581
00:29:53.079 --> 00:29:55.319
Um, but we got away with it. Like the, the
582
00:29:55.380 --> 00:29:58.279
studio didn't know that Nirvana was coming to record at
583
00:29:58.319 --> 00:30:00.559
their studio. I booked it under my name. I had
584
00:30:00.579 --> 00:30:02.700
done a bunch of sessions there, like I said, and, uh,
585
00:30:03.380 --> 00:30:05.640
I told him, yeah, it was the Simon Ritchie group.
586
00:30:05.680 --> 00:30:10.460
It's a country and Western outfit. And a lot of
587
00:30:10.500 --> 00:30:13.319
things were sort of tactical. Like Kurt didn't have to
588
00:30:13.339 --> 00:30:16.240
be handled with like with mittens. Like it wasn't like
589
00:30:16.279 --> 00:30:19.130
he was like on the verge of relapse every second.
590
00:30:19.150 --> 00:30:22.779
It was just anyone that's in recovery, they're an addict, right?
591
00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:25.680
To the point of you're in this very remote location.
592
00:30:25.740 --> 00:30:27.559
And at the end of your letter, you say, P.S.,
593
00:30:27.660 --> 00:30:29.480
if a record takes more than a week to make,
594
00:30:29.539 --> 00:30:34.170
somebody's fucking up. So your ethos was, I want to
595
00:30:34.210 --> 00:30:36.609
get this band in a room and let them play.
596
00:30:36.630 --> 00:30:39.240
And I will place the mics. I will do it.
597
00:30:39.309 --> 00:30:42.029
I will do my job. but I want to really
598
00:30:42.329 --> 00:30:47.220
capture this band live. And that experience of seeing Nirvana
599
00:30:47.339 --> 00:30:51.339
show up and play for you, you know, live. So
600
00:30:51.559 --> 00:30:53.220
how did you feel when you first saw them play?
601
00:30:53.579 --> 00:30:55.680
What I wanted was for them to go into a
602
00:30:55.720 --> 00:30:58.740
studio and behave normally. You don't have to just sit
603
00:30:58.759 --> 00:31:00.789
there in a room by yourself playing to a click track.
604
00:31:00.980 --> 00:31:03.809
You get to play with your band around you like always,
605
00:31:04.089 --> 00:31:07.130
you know, we don't have to replace everything. with a
606
00:31:07.309 --> 00:31:10.529
microscope and tweezers. You can just play like a band,
607
00:31:11.089 --> 00:31:15.720
you know, behave normally, have the normal experience that is
608
00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:19.140
the thing that got you animated about music and about
609
00:31:19.160 --> 00:31:19.759
the first place.
610
00:31:19.980 --> 00:31:20.400
Exactly.
611
00:31:20.660 --> 00:31:24.000
You guys had had some downtime and the impression I
612
00:31:24.039 --> 00:31:26.160
get from everything I've read and everyone I've talked to
613
00:31:26.660 --> 00:31:29.859
is that you came into the in utero experience ready
614
00:31:29.900 --> 00:31:33.089
to go. with a real sense of purpose and playing
615
00:31:33.130 --> 00:31:36.769
really fucking well. Does that feel accurate description?
616
00:31:36.809 --> 00:31:37.470
I think so.
617
00:31:37.690 --> 00:31:40.400
The first song we did was Serve the Servants. And
618
00:31:40.420 --> 00:31:42.359
then we had met Steve, and he set up. And
619
00:31:42.380 --> 00:31:45.519
then I remember Steve just standing by that big Studer
620
00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:49.769
tape machine, and he hits record, and he's got his
621
00:31:49.910 --> 00:31:52.549
arms crossed. He's watching us, and we knocked the song
622
00:31:52.630 --> 00:31:54.970
out in one take. We're like, oh, that was the keeper.
623
00:31:55.309 --> 00:31:57.670
Literally, the first thing recorded in the session is the
624
00:31:57.710 --> 00:31:59.809
first song on the album as recorded.
625
00:32:00.109 --> 00:32:03.450
What's amazing is a lot of songs were done in
626
00:32:03.890 --> 00:32:05.519
a take or two takes, but.
627
00:32:05.819 --> 00:32:09.029
There's a thing that, like... So far, none of the
628
00:32:09.069 --> 00:32:11.670
Trainspotters have mentioned this, so I don't know if it's
629
00:32:11.730 --> 00:32:14.990
generally known. But the song, there's like a quiet bit
630
00:32:15.230 --> 00:32:18.029
of the song, and then it kicks in to Full Monty.
631
00:32:18.130 --> 00:32:21.180
And we had done a sound check of the instruments
632
00:32:21.289 --> 00:32:24.329
before they did the take, but the full Monty was
633
00:32:24.430 --> 00:32:27.529
Kurt kicked on an overdrive pedal, which he hadn't used
634
00:32:27.569 --> 00:32:30.869
in the sound check. So when the first loud bit
635
00:32:30.970 --> 00:32:34.509
comes in, the guitars were pinning on the tape machine,
636
00:32:34.569 --> 00:32:38.009
like he was about 60 B hotter than proper for
637
00:32:38.269 --> 00:32:42.670
the session, right? So I immediately grabbed those channels and
638
00:32:42.750 --> 00:32:46.569
ratcheted them back. So the first beat of the loud
639
00:32:46.650 --> 00:32:49.940
part The tape machine is slightly overdriving and those channels
640
00:32:49.980 --> 00:32:52.460
are in the red and it's, you know, bad engineering
641
00:32:52.519 --> 00:32:54.859
on my part. But, you know, by the second or
642
00:32:54.900 --> 00:32:57.240
the third beat, it was back to normal. But there
643
00:32:57.339 --> 00:33:01.279
is this moment, there's this like slightly like exploding.
644
00:33:01.599 --> 00:33:03.839
You caught it. It's like, you know, or a couch
645
00:33:03.880 --> 00:33:06.269
guy just like telling your guy, hey, turn that down
646
00:33:06.309 --> 00:33:07.309
or he just, you know.
647
00:33:07.789 --> 00:33:11.369
But in a conventional setting, just the fact that we
648
00:33:11.410 --> 00:33:13.619
went over on that first beat, just the fact that
649
00:33:13.640 --> 00:33:17.059
it was the first run through, just the fact that
650
00:33:17.279 --> 00:33:20.019
there was this potential scar would be enough to say,
651
00:33:20.039 --> 00:33:22.940
all right, well, let's do it again. You know, let's
652
00:33:22.980 --> 00:33:24.380
do it. That was nice for a first take. Let's
653
00:33:24.420 --> 00:33:26.549
try it again. But everybody heard it on playback and
654
00:33:26.569 --> 00:33:28.329
I mentioned it. I said, you know, there's an overload
655
00:33:28.349 --> 00:33:31.029
here on this first beat because I wasn't prepared for
656
00:33:31.049 --> 00:33:32.910
the overdrive and, you know, got it back, got it
657
00:33:32.950 --> 00:33:35.589
in line. And everybody heard it on playback and was like, yeah,
658
00:33:35.630 --> 00:33:38.910
that's fine. And so that's on the record now, which
659
00:33:38.990 --> 00:33:42.559
is the sort of thing that, you know, when you're
660
00:33:42.599 --> 00:33:46.940
working in budget conditions and like sort of grubby studio sessions,
661
00:33:47.299 --> 00:33:48.940
that shit happens all the time and you just live
662
00:33:48.960 --> 00:33:51.720
with it. But for a band of their stature and
663
00:33:51.740 --> 00:33:53.960
of their resources to be able to say, you know,
664
00:33:54.059 --> 00:33:55.980
let's go ahead and use the first take just because
665
00:33:56.039 --> 00:33:57.789
it sounds fine. We're, you know, we're not that picky.
666
00:33:58.119 --> 00:34:00.750
I think I thought that was a remarkable display.
667
00:34:01.089 --> 00:34:03.960
Nevermind. I think it was two months ago. maybe to make,
668
00:34:04.059 --> 00:34:05.099
and then utero is.
669
00:34:05.559 --> 00:34:08.099
Nevermind, it was like 12 days or 14 days.
670
00:34:08.139 --> 00:34:09.300
Was it 14 days? I thought it was.
671
00:34:09.360 --> 00:34:10.239
It was really quick.
672
00:34:10.500 --> 00:34:10.659
Really?
673
00:34:10.679 --> 00:34:11.679
The recording of it, yeah.
674
00:34:11.719 --> 00:34:13.530
The recording of it, but then it's... Oh, and then
675
00:34:13.550 --> 00:34:15.190
the mix and stuff, yeah. The mixing and everything, that.
676
00:34:15.230 --> 00:34:18.150
I mean, I think soup to nuts in utero is
677
00:34:18.409 --> 00:34:20.050
two and a half weeks, three weeks.
678
00:34:20.329 --> 00:34:22.349
If we had been a little bit more efficient, we
679
00:34:22.369 --> 00:34:24.070
could have been out the door in 12 days, but
680
00:34:24.090 --> 00:34:26.289
I think we were done in 14 for sure.
681
00:34:26.309 --> 00:34:29.510
Here's the thing. So because we were looking for that
682
00:34:29.719 --> 00:34:32.300
kind of performance and we were looking for that kind
683
00:34:32.320 --> 00:34:34.880
of recording and most of the takes were maybe one
684
00:34:34.920 --> 00:34:38.159
or two takes or something we were done with the
685
00:34:38.199 --> 00:34:40.519
drums and I think the basic tracks in what three
686
00:34:40.559 --> 00:34:42.280
days or three or four days three or four days
687
00:34:42.699 --> 00:34:47.019
so that left me with a good week of sitting
688
00:34:47.039 --> 00:34:51.010
around doing fucking nothing in that house like The Shining
689
00:34:51.409 --> 00:34:55.010
watching those David Attenborough videotapes like things like that.
690
00:34:54.889 --> 00:34:57.090
Wait why are you watching David Attenborough.
691
00:34:56.750 --> 00:34:59.289
Nature videos because there was nothing else to do Yeah.
692
00:34:59.650 --> 00:35:02.369
And this is before streaming. This is a different time.
693
00:35:02.429 --> 00:35:05.369
Oh, I would do the fireplace. I would start fires, remember?
694
00:35:05.909 --> 00:35:07.150
And I would do the fireplace.
695
00:35:07.250 --> 00:35:11.380
Very primordial. Primordial activity is a man tending the fire.
696
00:35:11.400 --> 00:35:13.619
It was very shining. It was very shining.
697
00:35:13.719 --> 00:35:14.000
Yeah.
698
00:35:14.119 --> 00:35:14.380
Okay.
699
00:35:14.420 --> 00:35:16.059
You mentioned it so I can bring it up. You
700
00:35:16.099 --> 00:35:21.179
say tending fires. There was also some pyromania happening during
701
00:35:21.280 --> 00:35:24.210
the making of In utero. And I don't know if
702
00:35:24.250 --> 00:35:27.099
this was something that you guys picked up from.
703
00:35:27.119 --> 00:35:29.099
These guys would play with lighter fluid.
704
00:35:29.219 --> 00:35:30.440
Yeah. Let's talk about that.
705
00:35:30.519 --> 00:35:32.800
I didn't do it.
706
00:35:33.099 --> 00:35:35.300
It was a cleaning solvent that was used in the
707
00:35:35.320 --> 00:35:38.630
studio to clean the tape heads and clean equipment and stuff.
708
00:35:38.670 --> 00:35:42.400
It's a very pure alcohol that burns off. So you can, like,
709
00:35:42.420 --> 00:35:43.679
you can put it on your hand and set your
710
00:35:43.699 --> 00:35:45.380
hand on fire. Like, oh, look, I'm, you know, I'm
711
00:35:45.400 --> 00:35:46.019
the human torch.
712
00:35:46.260 --> 00:35:46.519
Sure.
713
00:35:46.599 --> 00:35:47.320
It's fine.
714
00:35:47.340 --> 00:35:47.559
Whatever.
715
00:35:47.599 --> 00:35:49.219
I'm sure he has some here.
716
00:35:49.320 --> 00:35:52.090
I brought some in. We're going to all douse ourselves
717
00:35:52.110 --> 00:35:52.469
with it.
718
00:35:52.989 --> 00:35:55.610
And, you know, you get bored with setting regular things
719
00:35:55.690 --> 00:35:58.409
on fire and then you start setting other people on fire.
720
00:35:58.150 --> 00:36:00.130
And stuff, you know. What kind of things are you
721
00:36:00.150 --> 00:36:01.289
setting on fire? Did you?
722
00:36:01.710 --> 00:36:04.349
My ass. We did that. I think you lit a
723
00:36:04.389 --> 00:36:07.389
cigar off of my ass. Yeah, that was... while that
724
00:36:07.429 --> 00:36:08.630
was on fire.
725
00:36:08.710 --> 00:36:10.980
How long is your ass on fire for? What's the
726
00:36:11.000 --> 00:36:16.400
amount of time? Long enough for Chris to light a cigar,
727
00:36:16.460 --> 00:36:18.760
so I'm thinking that's at least 10 seconds.
728
00:36:18.780 --> 00:36:19.780
For someone to take a picture.
729
00:36:19.800 --> 00:36:22.239
Yeah, okay. Did you ever smell anything cooking?
730
00:36:23.239 --> 00:36:28.530
Just our hot tracks. No, I think that, yeah, I mean,
731
00:36:28.670 --> 00:36:29.949
you know, we're out in the middle of nowhere with
732
00:36:29.989 --> 00:36:30.449
nothing to do.
733
00:36:30.690 --> 00:36:32.730
No, you light things on fire.
734
00:36:33.050 --> 00:36:33.349
We did.
735
00:36:33.389 --> 00:36:34.929
There were also prank phone calls.
736
00:36:35.510 --> 00:36:39.659
Because Steve had this realistic, like remember Radio Shock? And
737
00:36:39.679 --> 00:36:42.940
it was a microphone like you can stick on a phone,
738
00:36:43.219 --> 00:36:47.059
the microphone part of a phone. I might actually have it.
739
00:36:46.699 --> 00:36:48.059
In that drawer over there.
740
00:36:48.079 --> 00:36:48.659
You still have it?
741
00:36:48.679 --> 00:36:49.239
I might have, yeah.
742
00:36:49.300 --> 00:36:50.500
You can plug it into a tape.
743
00:36:50.980 --> 00:36:54.889
You can record off the phone like on a cassette, right?
744
00:36:55.110 --> 00:36:55.329
Yeah.
745
00:36:55.489 --> 00:36:55.769
Okay.
746
00:36:56.530 --> 00:36:59.550
I've done some research and like Nixon, you should have
747
00:36:59.570 --> 00:37:03.650
gotten rid of these tapes. You guys pranked Gene Simmons.
748
00:37:04.030 --> 00:37:04.230
Yeah.
749
00:37:04.429 --> 00:37:05.889
I believe it won of Kiss fame.
750
00:37:05.969 --> 00:37:06.909
That's my favorite one.
751
00:37:06.949 --> 00:37:09.110
Who deserves pranking, by the way.
752
00:37:09.130 --> 00:37:09.670
My favorite one.
753
00:37:09.769 --> 00:37:10.820
He deserves pranking.
754
00:37:10.889 --> 00:37:12.800
I don't know if you've ever spoken to Gene Simmons.
755
00:37:12.820 --> 00:37:14.579
Yes, I have. I love the Melvins.
756
00:37:14.880 --> 00:37:15.699
That was my favorite.
757
00:37:15.920 --> 00:37:17.639
He says what? I love the Melvins.
758
00:37:20.860 --> 00:37:21.380
He does.
759
00:37:21.619 --> 00:37:22.059
He does.
760
00:37:22.099 --> 00:37:23.400
He sounds just like Jackie Mason.
761
00:37:23.800 --> 00:37:26.260
Yeah. He was on my show once and all he
762
00:37:26.300 --> 00:37:28.500
did was sell merchandise. And I kept trying to get
763
00:37:28.539 --> 00:37:30.460
him to tell interesting stories. And he'd say, we'll get
764
00:37:30.539 --> 00:37:33.199
to that. But first, and then he'd go in and
765
00:37:33.219 --> 00:37:35.139
he'd say the Kiss Coffin. And he had a Kiss
766
00:37:35.219 --> 00:37:38.269
Coffin that he was selling. Absolutely true.
767
00:37:38.469 --> 00:37:41.670
I pretended to be Kurt calling Gene Simmons.
768
00:37:42.130 --> 00:37:43.550
Gene Simmons had reached out to Kurt.
769
00:37:43.590 --> 00:37:46.329
Gene Simmons had called their management because there was a
770
00:37:46.389 --> 00:37:48.949
Kiss tribute album being put together and Nirvana, the biggest
771
00:37:48.989 --> 00:37:51.179
band in the world, were friends with the Melvins and
772
00:37:51.199 --> 00:37:53.340
the Melvins did a Kiss cover and he assumed that
773
00:37:53.980 --> 00:37:55.699
Nirvana would want to do a Kiss cover to be
774
00:37:55.739 --> 00:37:59.050
on it. Gene Simmons cannot fathom that anyone on earth
775
00:37:59.179 --> 00:38:01.369
is not a massive Kiss fan.
776
00:38:01.489 --> 00:38:01.670
Right.
777
00:38:01.809 --> 00:38:04.329
I'm going to say this, a healthy ego. And Gene,
778
00:38:04.349 --> 00:38:06.289
if you're listening, this is a good thing to have.
779
00:38:06.389 --> 00:38:09.639
When I was like 12 years old to like maybe 14,
780
00:38:09.630 --> 00:38:10.809
I was huge in a Kiss.
781
00:38:11.150 --> 00:38:11.849
Yeah. Yeah.
782
00:38:12.070 --> 00:38:13.449
And Gene was my favorite. Yeah.
783
00:38:13.949 --> 00:38:15.659
And Nirvana had recorded a Kiss.
784
00:38:15.780 --> 00:38:17.039
Oh God, that was a disaster.
785
00:38:17.239 --> 00:38:17.880
What did you record?
786
00:38:18.099 --> 00:38:18.760
We were drunk.
787
00:38:18.780 --> 00:38:19.219
Do you love me?
788
00:38:19.630 --> 00:38:19.849
Uh-huh.
789
00:38:20.070 --> 00:38:21.190
We were drunk.
790
00:38:21.590 --> 00:38:21.909
Okay.
791
00:38:22.309 --> 00:38:24.670
Well, a few drinks are needed to record a Kiss
792
00:38:24.690 --> 00:38:25.369
song sometimes.
793
00:38:25.630 --> 00:38:28.409
So the word comes down that Gene Simmons is desperate
794
00:38:28.429 --> 00:38:30.820
to get Nirvana on this album. And Kurt is like,
795
00:38:30.929 --> 00:38:32.699
I don't want to talk to fucking Gene Simmons. And
796
00:38:32.719 --> 00:38:37.519
I said, I'll do it. So I called him back
797
00:38:37.559 --> 00:38:40.019
and I pretended to be Kurt. And I parried the
798
00:38:40.039 --> 00:38:42.639
whole thing away by saying that I wasn't making all
799
00:38:42.659 --> 00:38:45.360
the decisions because I had a reliability problem.
800
00:38:45.920 --> 00:38:46.139
Okay.
801
00:38:46.880 --> 00:38:49.019
So you're, are you talking directly to Gene?
802
00:38:49.199 --> 00:38:49.440
Yeah.
803
00:38:49.599 --> 00:38:50.079
As Kurt.
804
00:38:50.260 --> 00:38:51.739
And Gene thinks he's talking to Kurt.
805
00:38:51.800 --> 00:38:52.010
Yeah.
806
00:38:52.130 --> 00:38:54.309
And Kurt is sitting right next to me, listening to
807
00:38:54.369 --> 00:38:55.710
me do an impression of him.
808
00:38:55.750 --> 00:38:57.530
You do a really good Kurt, by the way.
809
00:38:57.550 --> 00:38:59.190
Can we hear just a second of you talking to
810
00:38:59.219 --> 00:38:59.800
Gene Simmons?
811
00:38:59.949 --> 00:39:01.199
I get to see Kurt giggling.
812
00:39:01.420 --> 00:39:06.300
Do you know, do you know the wipers? I really
813
00:39:06.340 --> 00:39:08.239
love the wipers. Do you know the wipers? And then
814
00:39:08.280 --> 00:39:10.190
Gene Simmons comes back with.
815
00:39:10.619 --> 00:39:11.489
I don't know the wipers.
816
00:39:14.630 --> 00:39:15.789
I know the Melvins.
817
00:39:15.929 --> 00:39:17.210
I love the Melvins.
818
00:39:17.230 --> 00:39:19.489
I don't know the wipers. I love the Melvins.
819
00:39:19.610 --> 00:39:23.329
You call, I love this one. You call Evan Dando.
820
00:39:23.809 --> 00:39:27.349
No, even better. Evan Dando. There was someone in Evan
821
00:39:27.369 --> 00:39:31.000
Dando's tour party who was a friend of Nirvana's. and
822
00:39:31.039 --> 00:39:35.110
had the phone number for the studio and called from
823
00:39:35.340 --> 00:39:38.489
a hotel in Australia, a direct call from a hotel
824
00:39:38.510 --> 00:39:41.170
in Australia, probably the most expensive fucking phone call that
825
00:39:41.190 --> 00:39:41.829
you could make.
826
00:39:41.909 --> 00:39:42.110
Right.
827
00:39:42.630 --> 00:39:42.889
Right.
828
00:39:43.550 --> 00:39:47.579
Billed to the room. So Evan Dando's like footing the
829
00:39:47.619 --> 00:39:51.420
bill for the most expensive direct call on earth. And
830
00:39:51.880 --> 00:39:55.840
what we did was we somehow we convinced that guy
831
00:39:56.309 --> 00:40:01.349
found Evan and convinced him that Madonna's personal assistant had found,
832
00:40:01.409 --> 00:40:04.650
had tracked him down at the hotel in Australia and
833
00:40:04.730 --> 00:40:05.809
wanted to talk to him.
834
00:40:06.030 --> 00:40:06.400
That's it.
835
00:40:06.469 --> 00:40:08.409
That's the whole, that's the whole context.
836
00:40:08.489 --> 00:40:11.130
So Evan Nino thinks he's on hold waiting for Madonna.
837
00:40:11.329 --> 00:40:11.530
Right.
838
00:40:11.590 --> 00:40:13.690
And every few minutes I would get back on the phone.
839
00:40:14.869 --> 00:40:17.210
And say, she asked me to place the call. She's
840
00:40:17.250 --> 00:40:20.010
still busy. Can you wait a little bit longer? And
841
00:40:20.030 --> 00:40:23.429
I had some absurd accent that I thought Madonna's assistant
842
00:40:23.489 --> 00:40:23.989
would have.
843
00:40:25.230 --> 00:40:26.530
And now Madonna has.
844
00:40:26.610 --> 00:40:28.050
And then he's just like, yeah, of course.
845
00:40:28.090 --> 00:40:28.530
Yeah, sure.
846
00:40:28.570 --> 00:40:28.889
I'll wait.
847
00:40:28.909 --> 00:40:29.449
Yeah, of course.
848
00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:35.039
And so literal silence for minutes on end on this.
849
00:40:35.139 --> 00:40:38.960
And then the sound of him exasperatedly like telling everyone
850
00:40:38.980 --> 00:40:42.380
around him like, I'm on hold for Madonna, you know.
851
00:40:43.860 --> 00:40:45.300
And he's paying for the whole thing.
852
00:40:45.400 --> 00:40:45.659
Sure.
853
00:40:45.880 --> 00:40:48.039
Because it was actually, the call actually started.
854
00:40:48.059 --> 00:40:49.699
It's a $ 700, 000 prank phone call.
855
00:40:50.460 --> 00:40:50.820
Yeah.
856
00:40:51.300 --> 00:40:52.420
Australian dollars.
857
00:40:52.780 --> 00:40:54.829
Eddie Vedder, I think, was there a prank call to
858
00:40:54.849 --> 00:40:55.710
Eddie Vedder at some point?
859
00:40:55.909 --> 00:40:57.869
Yeah, and I don't remember why that one. That was
860
00:40:57.909 --> 00:40:59.690
me as well. I don't remember why we did that one.
861
00:40:59.929 --> 00:41:01.730
Because I don't, there was no, you guys weren't like
862
00:41:01.849 --> 00:41:02.909
fighting or feuding with him.
863
00:41:02.949 --> 00:41:03.449
No, no, no.
864
00:41:03.750 --> 00:41:07.219
Yeah. I do remember getting him on the phone and
865
00:41:07.280 --> 00:41:09.860
telling him, I pretended to be Tony Visconti.
866
00:41:10.429 --> 00:41:10.840
Record producer.
867
00:41:10.860 --> 00:41:12.280
I remember that.
868
00:41:12.300 --> 00:41:13.659
By the way, you're supposed to be the adult in
869
00:41:13.699 --> 00:41:13.980
the room.
870
00:41:14.039 --> 00:41:14.719
I remember that.
871
00:41:14.739 --> 00:41:16.440
You know, you're the guy that's supposed to be, you're
872
00:41:16.460 --> 00:41:21.539
in charge and you're lighting, you're lighting artists on fire and, uh, and, and,
873
00:41:21.699 --> 00:41:22.800
and prank calling.
874
00:41:22.820 --> 00:41:26.920
So he's like, I'm producing David Bowie or something.
875
00:41:27.059 --> 00:41:28.550
I can't remember what it was, but I can't remember
876
00:41:28.590 --> 00:41:31.409
the context, but I was like, yeah, um, uh, I'm
877
00:41:31.429 --> 00:41:33.250
here with the black crows or something. I had some
878
00:41:33.309 --> 00:41:35.389
bullshit band that I claimed that I was with. And
879
00:41:35.409 --> 00:41:37.559
then I, and they were playing me a record and I,
880
00:41:38.019 --> 00:41:39.449
I want to get you in the studio with a
881
00:41:39.570 --> 00:41:41.809
real band, guys who can really play.
882
00:41:44.269 --> 00:41:45.010
That's pretty good.
883
00:41:45.329 --> 00:41:47.750
Did he get mad? Or no? Well, you have these.
884
00:41:47.769 --> 00:41:49.650
You're going to put these out at some point.
885
00:41:49.809 --> 00:41:53.789
Yeah, I genuinely don't remember the banter, but I do remember,
886
00:41:53.949 --> 00:41:55.969
I thought he handled it pretty deftly.
887
00:41:56.010 --> 00:41:56.349
He did well.
888
00:41:56.389 --> 00:41:58.989
I think he acquitted himself well, like talking on the
889
00:41:59.030 --> 00:42:01.659
phone to Tony Visconti, a record producer who wanted to
890
00:42:01.699 --> 00:42:03.280
fire his band.
891
00:42:03.340 --> 00:42:07.019
You say at one point, you say, he goes, where
892
00:42:07.039 --> 00:42:12.880
are you? I'm in Manitoba. And then he said, do
893
00:42:12.900 --> 00:42:14.519
you know where that is? And there's this long pause.
894
00:42:14.539 --> 00:42:15.719
He goes, no.
895
00:42:19.800 --> 00:42:22.539
Oh, please put these out. You'll get the releases. I'll
896
00:42:22.579 --> 00:42:24.360
take care of the legal end of it. Just please
897
00:42:24.400 --> 00:42:24.940
release these.
898
00:42:25.039 --> 00:42:27.219
One of the nice things about the studio is it's residential.
899
00:42:27.409 --> 00:42:30.449
You're there the whole time. You can get up in
900
00:42:30.469 --> 00:42:32.110
the morning and have breakfast. There's nowhere to go, right?
901
00:42:32.150 --> 00:42:32.750
There's nowhere to go.
902
00:42:32.929 --> 00:42:35.429
You can take a long walk, I think in the woods. Yeah.
903
00:42:35.449 --> 00:42:36.289
There's a creek there.
904
00:42:36.309 --> 00:42:38.969
I mean, we also, I don't know if we've really
905
00:42:39.030 --> 00:42:42.860
established that this was in February. Yeah.
906
00:42:42.960 --> 00:42:43.679
The dead of winter.
907
00:42:43.880 --> 00:42:45.059
In the dead of winter.
908
00:42:45.079 --> 00:42:45.940
Icicles.
909
00:42:46.000 --> 00:42:48.099
In the middle of fucking nowhere.
910
00:42:48.099 --> 00:42:50.300
20 foot icicles off the eaves of all the buildings.
911
00:42:50.420 --> 00:42:53.059
So even just a walk from the house to the studio,
912
00:42:53.119 --> 00:42:54.420
which is what a hundred yards.
913
00:42:54.719 --> 00:42:54.880
Yeah.
914
00:42:55.000 --> 00:42:59.699
If that you risk. Frostbite. So there's really no getting
915
00:42:59.800 --> 00:43:03.219
out and doing anything. Um, we are all just kind
916
00:43:03.239 --> 00:43:05.090
of really contained in this beautiful house.
917
00:43:05.110 --> 00:43:07.230
It was great, but there's no little town to go to.
918
00:43:07.250 --> 00:43:09.250
I mean, there is, there's a, like, if you want
919
00:43:09.269 --> 00:43:11.030
to drive a few miles, you can get into the
920
00:43:11.070 --> 00:43:14.210
little town of cannon falls, but there's like a bar
921
00:43:14.610 --> 00:43:19.719
and like an antique shop and like a gas station.
922
00:43:19.949 --> 00:43:22.519
That's it. I have really fond memories of making that record,
923
00:43:22.539 --> 00:43:26.010
to be honest. Like I really had fun. Yeah. And
924
00:43:26.269 --> 00:43:29.289
I think that we, it sounded so good as we
925
00:43:29.329 --> 00:43:31.550
were doing it, just within the room as we were playing.
926
00:43:31.570 --> 00:43:33.030
And then we would listen to playback. And I mean,
927
00:43:33.050 --> 00:43:36.760
you have to imagine, like, here's this guy who's made
928
00:43:36.800 --> 00:43:41.559
these albums that sound, we just always wanted to sound like.
929
00:43:42.550 --> 00:43:45.110
Nirvana making a Steve Albini record. And it was a
930
00:43:45.190 --> 00:43:48.369
dream come true. And as a drummer, I mean, you know, to,
931
00:43:48.510 --> 00:43:51.519
to get that Steve Albini drum sound, it's like, um,
932
00:43:51.780 --> 00:43:53.320
it was, it was a joy. It was really, what
933
00:43:53.360 --> 00:43:53.570
is it?
934
00:43:53.599 --> 00:43:56.440
Can I just ask without getting overly technical, but what is,
935
00:43:56.460 --> 00:43:59.610
how do you get that drum sound? Because I remember
936
00:43:59.650 --> 00:44:02.650
reading hammer the gods years and years and years ago.
937
00:44:03.420 --> 00:44:07.110
And they described how Jimmy Page had ideas about, I'm
938
00:44:07.130 --> 00:44:08.949
going to get a sound from John Bonham's drum by
939
00:44:09.050 --> 00:44:11.269
moving the mic. And I remember it was a revelation
940
00:44:11.309 --> 00:44:14.250
to me that by moving the microphone, you could get
941
00:44:14.289 --> 00:44:16.730
a different sound. Because I don't know shit.
942
00:44:16.989 --> 00:44:19.269
Let me just cut you off and bum you out
943
00:44:19.369 --> 00:44:23.139
by saying that everything that has ever been written about
944
00:44:23.469 --> 00:44:27.699
studio techniques and studio lore and all of the fables
945
00:44:27.760 --> 00:44:30.320
of things that have happened in the studio on famous records,
946
00:44:30.860 --> 00:44:34.570
every single thing in the popular culture, that people have
947
00:44:34.630 --> 00:44:37.599
heard about happening in the studio did not happen.
948
00:44:37.739 --> 00:44:38.820
It's all bullshit.
949
00:44:39.039 --> 00:44:43.239
There are a very, very, very small number of studio
950
00:44:43.280 --> 00:44:47.739
stories like, oh, they smeared cocaine on the tape. It's
951
00:44:47.960 --> 00:44:54.769
all bullshit. It's all just completely fabulous stuff that people
952
00:44:54.829 --> 00:44:58.869
write because they want to ascribe some sort of magic
953
00:44:59.010 --> 00:45:01.289
to the process. There's no magic to it.
954
00:45:01.559 --> 00:45:02.590
Well, this is heartbreaking.
955
00:45:03.929 --> 00:45:06.349
What about Jimmy Page really being the guy who played
956
00:45:06.369 --> 00:45:08.650
all those cool leads for the Who in the early 60s?
957
00:45:08.869 --> 00:45:10.099
Is that a lie?
958
00:45:10.119 --> 00:45:13.099
I mean, that's probably true. Jimmy Page, I heard from.
959
00:45:13.119 --> 00:45:14.420
Okay, so not everything's bullshit.
960
00:45:14.599 --> 00:45:14.820
Okay.
961
00:45:15.059 --> 00:45:15.800
Is there a Santa?
962
00:45:16.159 --> 00:45:19.539
But things like... You know, like like I think Dave
963
00:45:19.579 --> 00:45:22.460
can confirm that he set up a normal drum kit
964
00:45:22.820 --> 00:45:26.590
in a normal room and I put normal microphones all
965
00:45:26.630 --> 00:45:28.789
around it. And then I didn't fuck with him.
966
00:45:28.809 --> 00:45:29.110
Right.
967
00:45:29.130 --> 00:45:31.530
Like, you know, it's about not getting in the way.
968
00:45:31.690 --> 00:45:35.469
And the like, I suppose one one thing that's kind
969
00:45:35.510 --> 00:45:37.420
of notable is the ambient sound in that room. That
970
00:45:37.480 --> 00:45:40.519
room is really nice, was a really nice acoustic sound.
971
00:45:41.030 --> 00:45:43.670
And I'm fond of using the ambient sound in a
972
00:45:43.730 --> 00:45:46.449
room if the room is nice. The room we're sitting
973
00:45:46.510 --> 00:45:48.510
in right now is a lovely sounding room. And the
974
00:45:48.809 --> 00:45:50.969
sound of my voice echoing off the walls is much
975
00:45:51.010 --> 00:45:52.829
better than my actual voice, right?
976
00:45:52.849 --> 00:45:54.989
Yeah, I talked to you outside. It was awful.
977
00:45:55.070 --> 00:45:58.730
But he uses like vintage German microphones that are sweet
978
00:45:58.789 --> 00:46:01.190
and they have their own kind of sound.
979
00:46:01.510 --> 00:46:02.730
Personality. Yeah.
980
00:46:02.789 --> 00:46:05.340
It's funny that you mentioned Jimmy Page because I actually
981
00:46:05.530 --> 00:46:09.269
interviewed Robert Plant and Jimmy Page after they made the
982
00:46:09.309 --> 00:46:12.739
record with you. So Robert Plant and Jimmy Page made
983
00:46:12.780 --> 00:46:15.300
a record with Albini in, what, 1998 or something, 99
984
00:46:15.300 --> 00:46:17.380
or something like that? No, no.
985
00:46:17.820 --> 00:46:19.679
Wasn't that far after yours? Because it was like.
986
00:46:20.039 --> 00:46:20.329
Was it?
987
00:46:20.699 --> 00:46:21.039
Yeah.
988
00:46:21.119 --> 00:46:23.039
Like, I was on everybody's shit list after I did
989
00:46:23.059 --> 00:46:26.420
your record, and then I did a Bush record and
990
00:46:26.900 --> 00:46:28.559
the Page and Plant record, and that was it.
991
00:46:28.860 --> 00:46:31.989
So they called me to interview them for some magazine.
992
00:46:32.170 --> 00:46:32.349
Yeah.
993
00:46:32.590 --> 00:46:36.119
And I... You were the connection. They're like, well, you
994
00:46:36.159 --> 00:46:39.320
should interview these guys because you love Led Zeppelin and
995
00:46:39.340 --> 00:46:41.820
you've made a record with Steve Albini. And so I
996
00:46:41.860 --> 00:46:43.929
was terrified. I don't know if I'd ever met them
997
00:46:43.949 --> 00:46:47.230
before and never interviewed anyone before. And so we sat
998
00:46:47.269 --> 00:46:51.309
down and tape and cameras rolling and stuff. And I
999
00:46:51.429 --> 00:46:53.289
knew that at some point I was, we were going
1000
00:46:53.309 --> 00:46:55.730
to talk about you. I listened to the record. We
1001
00:46:55.750 --> 00:46:57.909
talked about the record, but we were going to, and
1002
00:46:57.929 --> 00:47:02.909
I asked why they chose you. And I remember Jimmy
1003
00:47:02.969 --> 00:47:10.219
Page saying, saying that he felt very connected to or
1004
00:47:10.260 --> 00:47:15.139
familiar with your recordings because it was somehow similar to
1005
00:47:15.239 --> 00:47:18.860
what he was trying to achieve when making Led Zeppelin records.
1006
00:47:19.289 --> 00:47:22.349
Same sort of ambience and stuff like that. And we
1007
00:47:22.369 --> 00:47:26.889
started talking about microphones, talking about placement and equipment and
1008
00:47:26.909 --> 00:47:29.050
shit like that. And then Robert Plant stops us and
1009
00:47:29.070 --> 00:47:32.829
he goes, excuse me, it's getting a bit technical, isn't it?
1010
00:47:38.969 --> 00:47:41.869
I was actually dreading, I was dreading this anecdote because
1011
00:47:42.050 --> 00:47:46.250
you've never told me this. And, uh, and my, my
1012
00:47:46.309 --> 00:47:48.380
presumption was the reason that you never told me this
1013
00:47:48.429 --> 00:47:50.940
anecdote was because they were mean to me and that
1014
00:47:50.980 --> 00:47:52.099
you didn't want to hurt my feelings.
1015
00:47:52.260 --> 00:47:53.960
No, no, no, no, no. They loved you.
1016
00:47:54.039 --> 00:47:56.800
You're too sensitive. People always say that about you. Um,
1017
00:48:00.860 --> 00:48:03.599
Let's get to it, because you said you're on some
1018
00:48:03.860 --> 00:48:07.619
people's shit list after In Utero. You guys make this,
1019
00:48:07.639 --> 00:48:10.260
you have this experience, you have this great experience, you
1020
00:48:10.280 --> 00:48:14.199
make this album, it goes off to Geffen, and then
1021
00:48:14.219 --> 00:48:15.920
you find out, I think it was in Kurt's words,
1022
00:48:15.940 --> 00:48:22.219
the grownups don't like it. It's too raw, they're worried
1023
00:48:22.260 --> 00:48:27.570
about it, they're worried it's not radio-friendly. Um, when did
1024
00:48:27.610 --> 00:48:28.650
you start to hear about that?
1025
00:48:29.269 --> 00:48:34.070
I remember hearing that the initial reaction was you're fucking joking.
1026
00:48:34.409 --> 00:48:36.969
You're kidding, right? Like, I think that was maybe one
1027
00:48:36.989 --> 00:48:41.360
of the record companies first reactions. Um, because I think,
1028
00:48:41.380 --> 00:48:44.300
you know, when you make a record, like nevermind, of course,
1029
00:48:44.719 --> 00:48:47.159
most of the people, the record companies want a follow-up
1030
00:48:47.199 --> 00:48:50.400
that's going to do the same thing.
1031
00:48:50.420 --> 00:48:54.340
We were supposed to mix nevermind. And we, the recording
1032
00:48:54.400 --> 00:48:58.320
went a little low over. And Butch wanted some time
1033
00:48:58.340 --> 00:49:01.519
to just rest his ears and just get away from
1034
00:49:01.599 --> 00:49:05.300
it for a few days. And then we went to Devonshire, remember?
1035
00:49:05.320 --> 00:49:11.650
And then we started mixing it, and the label wasn't happy.
1036
00:49:11.829 --> 00:49:14.889
And then we stopped mixing the record. And we all
1037
00:49:14.909 --> 00:49:19.489
went home, and then we brought Andy Wallace in.
1038
00:49:19.510 --> 00:49:19.590
Yeah.
1039
00:49:20.239 --> 00:49:22.280
That was just one of those compromises. And the label
1040
00:49:22.320 --> 00:49:25.880
was just like, eh. So then we worked with Andy Wallace,
1041
00:49:25.980 --> 00:49:31.050
mixed Nevermind. And so then, well, I like the record.
1042
00:49:31.110 --> 00:49:35.809
But I talked to Kurt about it. We'd have these conversations, Dave,
1043
00:49:35.969 --> 00:49:38.309
we're like, oh, well, you know, we are a big
1044
00:49:38.389 --> 00:49:41.110
band and we do have this obligation and we live
1045
00:49:41.130 --> 00:49:45.769
in a fabulous houses, right? And so maybe we just compromise,
1046
00:49:45.789 --> 00:49:47.670
like what is like the big, what's going to be
1047
00:49:47.710 --> 00:49:51.329
the radio song? See, Kurt wrote a song called Radio
1048
00:49:51.389 --> 00:49:57.710
Friendly Unit Shifter, which is totally cynical, right? And so like,
1049
00:49:57.889 --> 00:50:00.750
all right. And then we knew we were big REM fans.
1050
00:50:01.210 --> 00:50:05.039
They were recording Automatic for the People in Seattle. And
1051
00:50:05.059 --> 00:50:07.800
that was Studio X at the time. That was the
1052
00:50:07.840 --> 00:50:09.559
best studio in Seattle. So I would go down there
1053
00:50:09.579 --> 00:50:11.960
and hang out, listen to them make this record and
1054
00:50:11.980 --> 00:50:13.679
listen to their mixes at the end of the night
1055
00:50:13.980 --> 00:50:17.099
or their recordings. And then that's how I got to
1056
00:50:17.119 --> 00:50:21.579
know Scott Litt. Then some, I don't remember the details,
1057
00:50:21.619 --> 00:50:23.599
but then it was like, we'll have Scott that can
1058
00:50:23.639 --> 00:50:27.690
mix a song or two and that's it. That's the compromise.
1059
00:50:27.769 --> 00:50:31.130
To me, it feels a little bit like there's this, again,
1060
00:50:31.170 --> 00:50:32.849
this thing I was trying to get to earlier with
1061
00:50:32.869 --> 00:50:35.150
this push me, pull you feel of we want to
1062
00:50:35.190 --> 00:50:37.389
stay true to what we set out to do and
1063
00:50:37.429 --> 00:50:39.909
we have this certain sound, but we are the number
1064
00:50:39.989 --> 00:50:43.510
one band in the world and we are competitive and
1065
00:50:44.269 --> 00:50:45.710
We want to get some radio play.
1066
00:50:46.030 --> 00:50:50.409
But for Heart Shaped Box, remember Steve, that solo, I
1067
00:50:50.449 --> 00:50:53.280
didn't like the way that solo was and the way
1068
00:50:53.300 --> 00:50:55.940
it was too intense.
1069
00:50:56.000 --> 00:50:56.820
Really snarly.
1070
00:50:56.860 --> 00:50:59.500
It was really snarly and I'm like, well, this song
1071
00:50:59.559 --> 00:51:02.019
is a really pretty song and it's in a sad
1072
00:51:02.059 --> 00:51:05.650
song in some ways. I think I use the term like,
1073
00:51:05.909 --> 00:51:08.570
this sounds like you just threw this abortion on the floor.
1074
00:51:09.409 --> 00:51:10.630
That's what I said. Like all of a sudden there's
1075
00:51:10.650 --> 00:51:13.809
this abortion on the floor. This is terrible. And then,
1076
00:51:13.969 --> 00:51:15.369
you know, and then we would just talk, we would
1077
00:51:15.409 --> 00:51:18.360
discuss it, you know, and then one thing led to another.
1078
00:51:18.389 --> 00:51:19.380
And I don't know if we, yeah.
1079
00:51:19.389 --> 00:51:21.460
So you got the different solo, I believe.
1080
00:51:21.579 --> 00:51:24.019
As someone who wasn't in Nirvana and didn't have these
1081
00:51:24.219 --> 00:51:28.800
internal band conversations with them, like my assessment of it
1082
00:51:28.980 --> 00:51:32.599
was that they were managing their internal tensions and their,
1083
00:51:33.000 --> 00:51:35.420
it's normal after you finish a record to have some
1084
00:51:35.460 --> 00:51:37.260
doubts about it. And they'll like, you know, like when,
1085
00:51:37.340 --> 00:51:40.690
you know, wander away. Like, should we do another take
1086
00:51:40.710 --> 00:51:42.429
of this? Should, you know, should we try this? I
1087
00:51:42.449 --> 00:51:45.019
think Kurt added some backing vocals to a song that
1088
00:51:45.039 --> 00:51:50.019
had otherwise was otherwise finished. Like the public perception is
1089
00:51:50.119 --> 00:51:54.440
that the record label insisted that they change things and
1090
00:51:54.679 --> 00:51:57.219
Nirvana gave in on some stuff.
1091
00:51:57.500 --> 00:51:59.500
No, they were leading on us and they're, you know,
1092
00:51:59.539 --> 00:52:00.219
they're business people, right?
1093
00:52:00.239 --> 00:52:02.300
And that wasn't my read on it at all. Yeah.
1094
00:52:02.320 --> 00:52:05.059
My read on it was that Nirvana had decided that
1095
00:52:05.079 --> 00:52:07.300
they were going to resolve these things on their own.
1096
00:52:07.800 --> 00:52:09.840
And the record label was carping to the rest of,
1097
00:52:09.900 --> 00:52:11.579
you know, and the management and everybody was, they were
1098
00:52:11.679 --> 00:52:15.119
carping about it, but Nirvana was going to fucking handle it.
1099
00:52:15.360 --> 00:52:16.639
It wasn't up to them.
1100
00:52:17.059 --> 00:52:17.280
Right.
1101
00:52:17.619 --> 00:52:19.820
And what I said then, and what I've been saying
1102
00:52:20.030 --> 00:52:22.150
ever since is the record that made it into the
1103
00:52:22.210 --> 00:52:25.590
stores is the record that Nirvana wanted everyone to hear.
1104
00:52:25.730 --> 00:52:28.650
Well, you know, the funny thing is that after In Utero,
1105
00:52:29.110 --> 00:52:33.360
it became kind of a predictable move for other bands
1106
00:52:33.420 --> 00:52:37.159
that were in similar situations. An unknown band goes into
1107
00:52:37.179 --> 00:52:40.460
the studio, unknown underground sort of like rock band goes
1108
00:52:40.519 --> 00:52:43.119
into the studio, gets a record deal, goes in the studio.
1109
00:52:43.559 --> 00:52:45.849
They're put into the studio with a producer. They make
1110
00:52:45.889 --> 00:52:49.510
an album that's produced and it does really well. And
1111
00:52:49.849 --> 00:52:51.789
then they feel kind of weird about it because maybe
1112
00:52:51.809 --> 00:52:53.289
it didn't sound the way they wanted it to sound.
1113
00:52:53.309 --> 00:52:55.889
Maybe they got too popular, whatever it was. And then
1114
00:52:55.909 --> 00:52:58.809
they go into make their second record. They're like, well, no,
1115
00:52:58.889 --> 00:53:01.860
not this is what we really sound like. So Weezer
1116
00:53:02.110 --> 00:53:05.360
did it with their album Pinkerton, which is a fucking
1117
00:53:05.699 --> 00:53:08.760
amazing record. First Weezer record has a bunch of hits
1118
00:53:08.780 --> 00:53:10.400
and they become really popular. Then they go in to
1119
00:53:10.420 --> 00:53:13.960
make their second record Pinkerton. And that album, it's kind
1120
00:53:14.000 --> 00:53:16.559
of like they're in utero. Yeah. Another band like Bush,
1121
00:53:16.780 --> 00:53:18.719
you know, Bush is a band that gets really popular
1122
00:53:18.739 --> 00:53:21.980
and has this produced record. Then they decide, no, wait,
1123
00:53:22.019 --> 00:53:24.059
fuck that. Now that we're big, we get to do
1124
00:53:24.079 --> 00:53:25.940
the thing that we really want to do. So we're
1125
00:53:25.960 --> 00:53:27.969
going to go in and make an album that's raw
1126
00:53:27.989 --> 00:53:31.210
and the way it sounds. So I don't know if
1127
00:53:31.269 --> 00:53:34.289
it was something that was happening before the, I'm sure
1128
00:53:34.349 --> 00:53:37.070
it happened a million times before in utero, but for
1129
00:53:37.230 --> 00:53:39.559
people that came from the place that we came from
1130
00:53:40.280 --> 00:53:42.360
being in the garage and being in the van and
1131
00:53:42.400 --> 00:53:44.570
being in the clubs and stuff like that, I think
1132
00:53:44.949 --> 00:53:48.130
maybe if a band felt uncomfortable with their immediate rise
1133
00:53:48.150 --> 00:53:50.670
to fame, that's the knee-jerk reaction is to go in
1134
00:53:50.710 --> 00:53:52.230
and make an album where they're like, no, no, no, wait,
1135
00:53:52.429 --> 00:53:53.489
this is what we sound like.
1136
00:53:53.610 --> 00:53:55.489
I have to say, I remember when I first heard
1137
00:53:55.860 --> 00:53:59.440
the first track is Serve the Servants. And it is
1138
00:53:59.559 --> 00:54:04.599
such a shot across the bow from the Nevermind experience,
1139
00:54:04.639 --> 00:54:08.219
which I love Nevermind. And then I heard this, and
1140
00:54:08.320 --> 00:54:11.679
even today, it feels a little bit like you're taking
1141
00:54:11.719 --> 00:54:14.679
a Brillo pad and you're scrubbing The patina off of something.
1142
00:54:14.699 --> 00:54:17.389
Well, the opening line of the song is Teenage X.
1143
00:54:17.380 --> 00:54:19.599
Teenage X has paid off well, now I'm bored and old.
1144
00:54:19.739 --> 00:54:20.579
Yeah.
1145
00:54:20.639 --> 00:54:24.340
He's saying, he goes, now I'm bald and old. Then
1146
00:54:24.400 --> 00:54:25.840
I shot him a dirty look. Really?
1147
00:54:28.050 --> 00:54:30.989
He changed the lyric, yeah.
1148
00:54:31.030 --> 00:54:32.869
What a guy.
1149
00:54:32.989 --> 00:54:34.369
That's what friends are for.
1150
00:54:35.650 --> 00:54:37.670
That was nice of him, though, to change it.
1151
00:54:37.909 --> 00:54:38.519
Really nice to change it.
1152
00:54:38.530 --> 00:54:39.510
Kurt was a really nice guy.
1153
00:54:50.820 --> 00:54:52.400
Good nights are about the people.
1154
00:54:53.219 --> 00:54:53.679
The laughs.
1155
00:54:54.199 --> 00:54:56.969
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00:55:15.119 --> 00:55:15.920
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1163
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Yes, you scan.
1180
00:56:06.320 --> 00:56:13.659
When I listen to.
1181
00:56:13.599 --> 00:56:17.039
The record now, the range of the songs is so...
1182
00:56:17.260 --> 00:56:19.440
For the difference between, say, a service servant sitting in
1183
00:56:19.460 --> 00:56:26.199
an all-apologies or heart-shaped box and radio-friendly unit. How about
1184
00:56:26.260 --> 00:56:26.679
Milk It?
1185
00:56:26.739 --> 00:56:30.119
It's just downright menacing. And that's when you get the
1186
00:56:30.360 --> 00:56:33.280
full-on Kurt Cobain, just the way he does the vocals.
1187
00:56:33.340 --> 00:56:36.480
It's just terrifying. It's really spooky.
1188
00:56:36.579 --> 00:56:39.260
But then there's all that stuff that's so sweet, too.
1189
00:56:39.320 --> 00:56:39.760
Yeah, it is.
1190
00:56:42.010 --> 00:56:45.900
Even on the songs that have big dynamic harsh bits,
1191
00:56:46.239 --> 00:56:48.780
when he was recording the vocals, he always had that
1192
00:56:48.820 --> 00:56:53.250
little broken acoustic guitar and he was strumming along. So
1193
00:56:53.329 --> 00:56:55.909
a lot of the songs in the verses, there'll be
1194
00:56:55.949 --> 00:57:00.619
this sort of, funky sounding acoustic guitar, which was kind
1195
00:57:00.639 --> 00:57:01.860
of a comfort thing for him.
1196
00:57:01.909 --> 00:57:03.650
What was the guitar? Was it just a broken down?
1197
00:57:03.670 --> 00:57:06.170
It was a 12-string with the six strings on it,
1198
00:57:06.409 --> 00:57:09.010
and then it wouldn't stay in tune, so he tightened
1199
00:57:09.349 --> 00:57:12.039
the cheap tuning pegs with like a screwdriver, and then
1200
00:57:12.079 --> 00:57:15.699
you'd have to use pliers and to like tune it.
1201
00:57:15.980 --> 00:57:16.940
Like they were so tough.
1202
00:57:16.960 --> 00:57:18.659
And I think it had like a crack in the
1203
00:57:18.719 --> 00:57:19.550
top and stuff.
1204
00:57:19.610 --> 00:57:21.489
It was like a real, yeah, but it was a
1205
00:57:21.510 --> 00:57:22.409
total piece of junk.
1206
00:57:22.489 --> 00:57:25.710
He was more comfortable singing if he was strumming along
1207
00:57:25.750 --> 00:57:28.670
on this guitar. So you hear this acoustic guitar under
1208
00:57:28.710 --> 00:57:31.409
the vocals and a lot of these songs and the verses.
1209
00:57:31.710 --> 00:57:33.530
And it's not like he did a session where he
1210
00:57:33.570 --> 00:57:35.929
did the acoustic guitar over it. He was just strumming
1211
00:57:35.949 --> 00:57:38.320
the acoustic guitar while he was singing as a, as
1212
00:57:38.360 --> 00:57:40.539
a comfort thing for himself. And it stayed on the
1213
00:57:40.579 --> 00:57:42.539
record because it didn't sound bad. It sounded fine.
1214
00:57:42.780 --> 00:57:42.980
Right.
1215
00:57:43.230 --> 00:57:45.909
And it was a casual and loose and informal thing,
1216
00:57:45.989 --> 00:57:48.530
but it made him more comfortable. And so when I
1217
00:57:48.570 --> 00:57:52.030
think of his aesthetic, I don't think of this harsh, gnarly,
1218
00:57:52.090 --> 00:57:54.789
violent thing. And when you listen, like when you think
1219
00:57:54.829 --> 00:57:57.130
about the way people described that record at the time,
1220
00:57:57.150 --> 00:58:01.949
it was like, oh, it's this cathartic, menacing, terrorish, you know,
1221
00:58:02.030 --> 00:58:03.469
terroristic kind of a thing.
1222
00:58:03.489 --> 00:58:05.840
It could be. And you listen to it. Yeah.
1223
00:58:05.860 --> 00:58:08.619
And there are big, you know, angry, powerful moments on it,
1224
00:58:08.619 --> 00:58:10.320
but it's like, A lot of it, I think, is
1225
00:58:10.440 --> 00:58:14.280
really sweet. I remember when you came here in 2013,
1226
00:58:14.280 --> 00:58:17.159
we did that alternate version of it and we're playing
1227
00:58:17.179 --> 00:58:19.079
through the stuff and listen to it. Like we played
1228
00:58:19.119 --> 00:58:21.239
the masters for the like the first thing we did
1229
00:58:21.260 --> 00:58:23.739
was play the masters of the original session. And both
1230
00:58:23.760 --> 00:58:26.480
of us were like, man, this sounds really great. Like
1231
00:58:26.500 --> 00:58:28.949
you I'm you're you know, you're listening to it now
1232
00:58:29.300 --> 00:58:33.230
with the 20s. five or 30 years of aesthetic that
1233
00:58:33.250 --> 00:58:35.949
we've been exposed to since then. What was the fucking
1234
00:58:35.969 --> 00:58:38.550
big deal? What were people so hot about? It just
1235
00:58:38.570 --> 00:58:41.110
sounds like a really good record.
1236
00:58:41.340 --> 00:58:43.199
To be fair, I got to point out the reviews
1237
00:58:43.300 --> 00:58:47.460
when the album came out, universally, almost without exception, were glowing.
1238
00:58:47.480 --> 00:58:52.519
The critics, whatever that means to you guys at the time,
1239
00:58:52.820 --> 00:58:54.380
thought it was fabulous work.
1240
00:58:54.719 --> 00:58:55.780
Bad reviews sting.
1241
00:58:56.329 --> 00:59:01.239
I wouldn't know. Never a bump in the road. I
1242
00:59:01.260 --> 00:59:03.539
hear an echo. Yes, they do.
1243
00:59:03.599 --> 00:59:06.469
Those fabled electrical audio acoustics is what you're hearing.
1244
00:59:06.510 --> 00:59:06.690
Yeah.
1245
00:59:09.889 --> 00:59:13.449
No, but it was appreciated when it came out. And
1246
00:59:13.469 --> 00:59:18.050
of course, one of the difficulties is that once Kurt died,
1247
00:59:18.610 --> 00:59:22.420
everybody had to go back and parse through in utero
1248
00:59:22.840 --> 00:59:26.980
and read lyrics like they're tea leaves leading you somewhere.
1249
00:59:27.260 --> 00:59:32.269
And that feels like a recipe for incredible bullshit and misunderstanding.
1250
00:59:32.730 --> 00:59:34.449
You can do it with Soundgarden lyrics too.
1251
00:59:34.909 --> 00:59:39.110
Yeah, it's strange. When we were making the record, we
1252
00:59:39.610 --> 00:59:42.429
did all of the instrumental tracks first. I don't know
1253
00:59:42.449 --> 00:59:44.469
if Kurt sang any of the songs live. It was
1254
00:59:44.550 --> 00:59:47.519
all just the three of us doing the instrumental tracks first,
1255
00:59:47.639 --> 00:59:50.460
live in a room, without really having ever heard what
1256
00:59:50.579 --> 00:59:52.960
Kurt was going to sing or even how he was
1257
00:59:53.000 --> 00:59:57.019
going to sing it, like his melodies and patterns. Most
1258
00:59:57.059 --> 00:59:59.440
of these things, I just listen to them as instrumental. So,
1259
00:59:59.829 --> 01:00:02.630
it was always exciting, like a mystery knowing like, oh,
1260
01:00:02.650 --> 01:00:06.369
he's in there singing this track today and wondering what
1261
01:00:06.389 --> 01:00:08.789
it was going to sound like when he was finished.
1262
01:00:08.849 --> 01:00:13.070
One of Kurt's amazing abilities was not just that he
1263
01:00:13.090 --> 01:00:16.469
was a great lyricist, but he had a really specific
1264
01:00:16.989 --> 01:00:21.750
kind of signature melodic turn of phrase. So he always
1265
01:00:21.849 --> 01:00:26.869
braided really two simple lines together, I think, in a
1266
01:00:26.949 --> 01:00:31.039
way that that was almost unpredictable. And he would go
1267
01:00:31.159 --> 01:00:34.380
from maybe a gentle voice to a scream, or maybe
1268
01:00:34.420 --> 01:00:36.559
a minor key to a major, but he would do
1269
01:00:36.599 --> 01:00:40.539
it in this way that was really beautifully patterned, which
1270
01:00:40.699 --> 01:00:43.320
I always thought was really cool, and really simple. Ultimately,
1271
01:00:43.739 --> 01:00:47.820
most everything that he did, I thought was simple, but
1272
01:00:48.000 --> 01:00:50.579
really smart. Anyway, so you would hear these things as
1273
01:00:50.599 --> 01:00:54.019
they came back, and you would hear, for the first time,
1274
01:00:54.619 --> 01:00:58.440
his melodic idea, but also the lyric. And every time
1275
01:00:58.539 --> 01:01:01.110
I would hear it for the first time, I'd think,
1276
01:01:01.349 --> 01:01:07.619
that's just odd. That's unusual. It's a weird, what a
1277
01:01:07.639 --> 01:01:09.869
strange thing to say. What does that mean? But as
1278
01:01:09.889 --> 01:01:11.750
the drummer, of course, I'm like, shit, did I slow
1279
01:01:11.769 --> 01:01:13.789
down in the chorus? Now, fuck, am I kick drums too? But,
1280
01:01:13.809 --> 01:01:16.349
you know, it's still to this day, if I listen
1281
01:01:16.389 --> 01:01:20.099
to that record, I'll find things or I'll feel things
1282
01:01:20.219 --> 01:01:23.679
that I didn't necessarily feel 25 years ago. Not just
1283
01:01:23.739 --> 01:01:26.340
in light of everything that had happened, but of course that,
1284
01:01:26.400 --> 01:01:28.800
you know, everything that did happen can, you know, kind
1285
01:01:28.820 --> 01:01:31.769
of screw the lens a little bit or distort maybe
1286
01:01:32.210 --> 01:01:36.349
what it felt like before and what it feels like now.
1287
01:01:36.940 --> 01:01:38.889
I think it's a slippery slope. It's easy to, to
1288
01:01:38.929 --> 01:01:40.010
look back at that stuff.
1289
01:01:40.110 --> 01:01:43.530
And there's a thing that people don't give Kurt credit
1290
01:01:43.750 --> 01:01:46.869
for enough, which is that a lot of people think
1291
01:01:46.929 --> 01:01:52.000
of his lyrical sensibility as just being a journal of
1292
01:01:52.059 --> 01:01:53.000
his feelings.
1293
01:01:53.400 --> 01:01:53.619
Right.
1294
01:01:53.920 --> 01:01:56.760
He was an artist and he was incorporating stuff from,
1295
01:01:57.280 --> 01:02:01.230
you know, other things, other influences, bands and records that
1296
01:02:01.269 --> 01:02:04.309
he admired stuff that he'd read like literature. There's a
1297
01:02:04.349 --> 01:02:07.659
line in one of the songs. I think it's most
1298
01:02:07.800 --> 01:02:10.079
babies smell like butter. Is that you know what I'm
1299
01:02:10.099 --> 01:02:10.400
talking about?
1300
01:02:10.440 --> 01:02:10.800
Yeah.
1301
01:02:11.139 --> 01:02:14.559
And I was like, what a weird observation. Did you
1302
01:02:14.599 --> 01:02:17.239
like smell a baby? And like he just had a kid.
1303
01:02:17.280 --> 01:02:17.519
Right.
1304
01:02:18.239 --> 01:02:20.840
And and and I found out that that was a
1305
01:02:21.360 --> 01:02:23.960
near direct quote from a book that he'd read about
1306
01:02:23.980 --> 01:02:27.639
a guy who had this sort of sensory experience of
1307
01:02:27.659 --> 01:02:28.780
the world that was abnormal.
1308
01:02:29.239 --> 01:02:31.030
And, you know, this apprentice.
1309
01:02:31.329 --> 01:02:31.570
Yeah.
1310
01:02:31.590 --> 01:02:33.349
So I was surprised as a track on the, on
1311
01:02:33.369 --> 01:02:34.349
in utero. Yeah.
1312
01:02:34.710 --> 01:02:37.969
And you know, and then like, he's, he's from Seattle
1313
01:02:38.119 --> 01:02:42.000
and Francis farmer is a tragic figure, local person to
1314
01:02:42.360 --> 01:02:46.059
the Seattle area, like a lot of lore involved in
1315
01:02:46.199 --> 01:02:47.949
there were like, there had been recently come to light
1316
01:02:48.119 --> 01:02:50.289
a lot of the sort of manipulative stuff that had
1317
01:02:50.329 --> 01:02:52.949
been done to her, uh, during her career to try
1318
01:02:52.989 --> 01:02:55.289
to manage her career. Like you can see that there
1319
01:02:55.329 --> 01:02:59.480
are parallels there. where he may have been feeling pressures
1320
01:02:59.539 --> 01:03:04.550
from outside people trying to manage his artistic expression for
1321
01:03:04.590 --> 01:03:07.190
their benefit and seeing a parallel between his life and
1322
01:03:07.210 --> 01:03:09.469
Frances Farmer's life and then using her as a figure.
1323
01:03:09.489 --> 01:03:11.789
It's such a great title for a song.
1324
01:03:12.309 --> 01:03:12.650
Yeah.
1325
01:03:13.110 --> 01:03:16.050
And that image of leaving a blanket of ash, burn
1326
01:03:16.090 --> 01:03:18.059
all the assholes and leave a blanket of ash on
1327
01:03:18.079 --> 01:03:18.440
the ground.
1328
01:03:19.679 --> 01:03:21.380
And also it felt like a little bit of a
1329
01:03:21.460 --> 01:03:25.130
reaction to I read somewhere once, I think that there
1330
01:03:25.150 --> 01:03:28.670
were so many just one-name songs that Kurt was really
1331
01:03:28.690 --> 01:03:32.199
interested in going the other way. So it's Francis Farmer
1332
01:03:32.260 --> 01:03:35.579
will have her revenge. The ghost of Francis Farmer will
1333
01:03:35.599 --> 01:03:41.780
have her revenge on Seattle. Or radio-friendly shipping unit. These
1334
01:03:41.820 --> 01:03:46.179
were attempts to say, I'm reacting to this cute moment
1335
01:03:46.199 --> 01:03:47.360
we're in where everything is just.
1336
01:03:48.389 --> 01:03:51.210
And he was aware of that as a trope and
1337
01:03:51.250 --> 01:03:52.719
he was playing and he played with it. He had,
1338
01:03:52.739 --> 01:03:54.559
there was a one song he wanted to call gallons
1339
01:03:54.619 --> 01:03:56.579
of rubbing alcohol roll through the strip.
1340
01:03:57.260 --> 01:03:59.250
We had that jam. Yeah, we did that.
1341
01:03:59.309 --> 01:03:59.389
And.
1342
01:03:59.780 --> 01:04:02.480
He didn't want to be like, like be dated or
1343
01:04:02.559 --> 01:04:05.199
be put in like some kind of box or something.
1344
01:04:05.780 --> 01:04:08.739
So he also was just cryptic, not allowed people to
1345
01:04:08.780 --> 01:04:11.900
just invite people in to make their own interpretation of it.
1346
01:04:11.940 --> 01:04:13.900
Then if you look at his other forms of expression,
1347
01:04:13.920 --> 01:04:16.079
like Steve said, like Kurt was an artist and he was,
1348
01:04:16.139 --> 01:04:18.840
he was a great painter. He was a sculptor. He
1349
01:04:18.860 --> 01:04:21.619
would do comic books and he's more than happy to
1350
01:04:21.659 --> 01:04:24.059
walk you through every panel of like a comic he did.
1351
01:04:24.119 --> 01:04:24.719
Yeah.
1352
01:04:25.440 --> 01:04:30.360
And they were always just tragic figures, the people. Or
1353
01:04:30.610 --> 01:04:36.070
just weird, writhing spirit apparition. Everything was just kind of
1354
01:04:36.349 --> 01:04:40.869
strange and dark and weird. But very well done.
1355
01:04:41.610 --> 01:04:42.190
Beautiful.
1356
01:04:43.130 --> 01:04:48.019
Done very well. That was when he was expressing himself musically.
1357
01:04:48.039 --> 01:04:52.840
In utero, that's all over in utero.
1358
01:04:52.900 --> 01:04:56.030
I can go anywhere in the world. anywhere and see
1359
01:04:56.070 --> 01:04:59.820
someone walking down the street in a Nirvana t-shirt. And
1360
01:04:59.900 --> 01:05:02.179
I was, I mean, we're here in Chicago. We were
1361
01:05:02.219 --> 01:05:04.070
walking last night to go get a bite to eat,
1362
01:05:04.510 --> 01:05:06.769
saw someone in a Nirvana t-shirt, but I mean, I
1363
01:05:06.809 --> 01:05:09.820
could be in, you know, I could be on Guam
1364
01:05:09.880 --> 01:05:12.500
and just see someone randomly walk by in a Nirvana t-shirt.
1365
01:05:12.679 --> 01:05:15.559
And what always strikes me about these moments is that
1366
01:05:15.780 --> 01:05:22.079
there's this massive projection that happens, which is Nirvana, Legend, Kurt.
1367
01:05:22.579 --> 01:05:25.179
It all gets prismed out and it gets so huge.
1368
01:05:25.340 --> 01:05:27.780
And then I talk to you guys and he's your
1369
01:05:27.820 --> 01:05:32.659
friend that you knew intimately. You guys were very close.
1370
01:05:33.429 --> 01:05:33.880
And....
1371
01:05:35.159 --> 01:05:37.780
It's all become so much bigger. There are people out
1372
01:05:37.820 --> 01:05:40.659
there that have opinions, strong opinions about who he was
1373
01:05:40.699 --> 01:05:43.320
and what he meant and what you guys meant. And
1374
01:05:43.920 --> 01:05:48.989
it must just seem surreal to you at times. Like, no, no, no.
1375
01:05:49.309 --> 01:05:50.789
That was our friend. There was three of us. We
1376
01:05:50.829 --> 01:05:53.349
were in this, we were in a van together. And
1377
01:05:53.449 --> 01:05:56.949
it has now become this IMAX projection.
1378
01:05:56.530 --> 01:05:59.030
On the world. When my kids sometime will ask me,
1379
01:05:59.050 --> 01:06:02.300
let's say, my daughter Harper and I were driving in
1380
01:06:02.340 --> 01:06:05.389
the car not long ago, six months ago. And a
1381
01:06:05.429 --> 01:06:08.449
Nirvana song came on. And we don't listen to Nirvana
1382
01:06:08.719 --> 01:06:12.099
at home. This Nirvana song comes on. She's singing along
1383
01:06:12.159 --> 01:06:14.599
to the words. And I'm thinking, wow, that's weird. I've
1384
01:06:14.619 --> 01:06:16.739
never heard her listen to a Nirvana song. How does
1385
01:06:16.760 --> 01:06:19.940
she know a Nirvana song? And she says, she said, dad,
1386
01:06:19.980 --> 01:06:22.590
how old were you when you made this song? I said, God,
1387
01:06:22.610 --> 01:06:26.329
I think I was like 22, maybe. She goes, oh,
1388
01:06:27.030 --> 01:06:28.989
how old was Kurt? I said, I guess he was
1389
01:06:29.010 --> 01:06:31.230
maybe like 23, 24. She goes, what was he like?
1390
01:06:31.250 --> 01:06:33.849
And I'd say, well, he was really nice. He was
1391
01:06:33.869 --> 01:06:37.530
kind of shy. sometimes quiet, but he was cool. But
1392
01:06:37.550 --> 01:06:40.710
she says, well, he was shy. Was he shy around
1393
01:06:41.110 --> 01:06:43.800
people that he knew or people that he didn't know?
1394
01:06:43.820 --> 01:06:47.760
And I said, well, kind of a little bit of both.
1395
01:06:47.940 --> 01:06:51.679
And she said, God, that's so strange that someone who
1396
01:06:52.440 --> 01:06:55.119
feels shy like that, that could write these songs and
1397
01:06:55.179 --> 01:06:57.579
sing them for everyone to hear and then stand on
1398
01:06:57.639 --> 01:07:01.119
stage in front of 100,000 people and play them. I
1399
01:07:01.159 --> 01:07:04.659
thought that was so cool because I think she wasn't
1400
01:07:04.780 --> 01:07:09.099
looking so much at that other thing. She was looking
1401
01:07:09.179 --> 01:07:12.909
at the person, right? And, you know, after Nirvana was
1402
01:07:13.010 --> 01:07:16.829
over that, that curtain got sort of like sort of
1403
01:07:16.909 --> 01:07:20.050
pulled away. So it changed the way I thought about
1404
01:07:20.389 --> 01:07:25.099
every other mythological rock star that I'd ever followed in
1405
01:07:25.159 --> 01:07:28.380
my entire life. And it really made me realize, oh shit,
1406
01:07:28.760 --> 01:07:32.309
they were, an actual human being. We talked like they're
1407
01:07:32.349 --> 01:07:35.570
playing cards or something like that, but they're just people. Yeah.
1408
01:07:35.650 --> 01:07:39.639
Can somebody help me with this pronunciation of this term? Apotheosis?
1409
01:07:39.960 --> 01:07:40.139
Yeah.
1410
01:07:40.179 --> 01:07:40.539
Sounds right.
1411
01:07:40.559 --> 01:07:40.860
That's it.
1412
01:07:40.980 --> 01:07:43.460
Okay. Yeah. Is that that soap that you get at
1413
01:07:43.480 --> 01:07:44.800
the- Apotheosis.
1414
01:07:44.820 --> 01:07:47.800
That you need soap to treat it. A special medicated soap.
1415
01:07:47.820 --> 01:07:49.840
Sounds like the name of a boutique that I cannot
1416
01:07:49.920 --> 01:07:51.340
afford a single fucking thing.
1417
01:07:51.400 --> 01:07:53.159
I've been taking Sky Rizzy for that. I don't know if.
1418
01:07:53.139 --> 01:07:56.869
That's- And that's what it is. So like basically the apotheosis.
1419
01:07:57.269 --> 01:08:01.289
What's this whole idea that something- Well, okay. So I
1420
01:08:01.329 --> 01:08:04.630
had just, this is just my own personal connection to
1421
01:08:04.650 --> 01:08:07.420
a very public thing for you guys, but there was a,
1422
01:08:07.719 --> 01:08:11.400
some back when they were a big deal, MTV awards
1423
01:08:11.840 --> 01:08:14.559
kind of situation. And because I was brand new on
1424
01:08:14.579 --> 01:08:17.739
the scene. you know, here's this new guy we're sending
1425
01:08:17.760 --> 01:08:19.399
him to the, he's going to be sitting in like
1426
01:08:19.439 --> 01:08:20.199
the second.
1427
01:08:19.939 --> 01:08:20.800
Or third row.
1428
01:08:20.819 --> 01:08:22.859
And you guys got up and spoke because it was
1429
01:08:23.060 --> 01:08:26.220
very shortly after Kurt had died. And the two of
1430
01:08:26.279 --> 01:08:28.560
you went up on stage and spoke. And I remember
1431
01:08:28.579 --> 01:08:31.920
just having this powerful feeling of they lost their friend.
1432
01:08:32.420 --> 01:08:34.359
You could just feel how raw and personal it all
1433
01:08:34.399 --> 01:08:35.520
was in that moment.
1434
01:08:35.899 --> 01:08:39.619
People that are in bands are the fraternity that you
1435
01:08:39.659 --> 01:08:42.520
feel like the companion, the companionship of the people that
1436
01:08:42.539 --> 01:08:47.399
you're intimate creative with day-to-day basis is a really incredibly
1437
01:08:47.439 --> 01:08:51.970
strong bond. And it's also, you, you know, those people intimately.
1438
01:08:52.369 --> 01:08:55.130
We have the, this box set we did and John
1439
01:08:55.189 --> 01:08:57.250
Silva did a really good job with that. He's a
1440
01:08:57.550 --> 01:09:00.399
music fan first and foremost. And if you, i'm not
1441
01:09:00.420 --> 01:09:03.600
going to be selling my nirvana coffin or whatever but
1442
01:09:03.880 --> 01:09:07.869
it has like live performances there's because this thing is
1443
01:09:07.949 --> 01:09:11.869
packed i'm curious packed with like posters and backstage passes
1444
01:09:11.989 --> 01:09:15.140
and John Silva and Silva Artist Management, they put it
1445
01:09:15.180 --> 01:09:15.619
all together.
1446
01:09:15.680 --> 01:09:18.520
And tons of other tracks that didn't make it onto
1447
01:09:18.579 --> 01:09:19.399
In Utero.
1448
01:09:19.560 --> 01:09:21.899
There's a bunch of live stuff on here. See, I'm
1449
01:09:21.920 --> 01:09:26.279
wondering if it has the demos that we did in Brazil.
1450
01:09:26.460 --> 01:09:31.060
There's live in Rome, live in Los Angeles, live in Seattle,
1451
01:09:31.090 --> 01:09:35.250
and they're board tapes. And then we use technology to
1452
01:09:35.310 --> 01:09:39.000
clean them up. You can make a multi-track. now from
1453
01:09:39.079 --> 01:09:40.899
a stereo digital audio tape.
1454
01:09:40.939 --> 01:09:43.739
Do you guys have favorite live performances that just come
1455
01:09:43.840 --> 01:09:44.020
to mind?
1456
01:09:44.039 --> 01:09:45.930
At this point, Pat Smear had joined the band.
1457
01:09:46.010 --> 01:09:50.310
Yes, Pat. From the release of the album, he was touring.
1458
01:09:50.050 --> 01:09:52.810
With you guys. It was big because we had made
1459
01:09:53.130 --> 01:09:58.270
the album. At one point, there was a second guitarist
1460
01:09:58.310 --> 01:10:00.729
in Nirvana before I joined the band. He wanted to
1461
01:10:00.750 --> 01:10:02.989
get another guitarist at this point. He goes down to
1462
01:10:03.010 --> 01:10:05.229
Los Angeles, he comes back, he says, I found our
1463
01:10:05.270 --> 01:10:07.510
second guitar player. I said, really, who's that? He said,
1464
01:10:07.590 --> 01:10:11.159
Pat Smear from The Germs. And if anybody knows The Germs,
1465
01:10:11.199 --> 01:10:14.399
they were very early on the punk rock band in
1466
01:10:14.420 --> 01:10:18.979
Los Angeles. Perhaps the most dangerous. And so I just
1467
01:10:19.000 --> 01:10:21.039
thought like, oh my God, I can't believe that fucking
1468
01:10:21.060 --> 01:10:23.649
guy's still alive because he was in The Germs.
1469
01:10:23.670 --> 01:10:27.569
And a sad side note is Darby Crash.
1470
01:10:27.810 --> 01:10:31.550
Yeah. He committed suicide. Yeah, the singer of The Germs. Anyway,
1471
01:10:31.569 --> 01:10:34.149
so Pat comes up and I'm just expecting this big, disgusting,
1472
01:10:34.189 --> 01:10:40.260
fat junkie. And he's the most Wonderful, energetic, brilliant, beautiful.
1473
01:10:40.279 --> 01:10:41.020
Well put together.
1474
01:10:41.039 --> 01:10:45.390
He really breathed this whole new life into the band.
1475
01:10:45.470 --> 01:10:47.750
The great thing, too, is there's a great anecdote that
1476
01:10:47.770 --> 01:10:50.989
defines his contribution to the band in addition to being
1477
01:10:51.029 --> 01:10:54.109
a great musician. And there was a story of you
1478
01:10:54.130 --> 01:10:56.350
guys playing a show, and then there's not a nice
1479
01:10:56.409 --> 01:10:59.609
review about the show. And it says, you know, the
1480
01:10:59.649 --> 01:11:02.229
show was off, and someone's reading the review. Oh, I
1481
01:11:02.270 --> 01:11:03.989
remember that. People were getting pissed.
1482
01:11:04.170 --> 01:11:06.819
The opening night of the tour, the Neuterotour, It was
1483
01:11:06.840 --> 01:11:10.699
at the Arizona State Fair and it's the first night.
1484
01:11:11.039 --> 01:11:13.149
And so, you know, it takes a couple of shows
1485
01:11:13.189 --> 01:11:16.630
to get rolling. And so it was Edna Gunderson from
1486
01:11:16.829 --> 01:11:17.810
USA Today.
1487
01:11:17.840 --> 01:11:22.770
Jeez Louise. a name that will live in for me.
1488
01:11:22.890 --> 01:11:25.310
And she gave us a mediocre review. Like, why didn't
1489
01:11:25.350 --> 01:11:28.130
she go like three or four shows into the tour?
1490
01:11:28.149 --> 01:11:30.189
Then she would have caught us. And that's what you
1491
01:11:30.210 --> 01:11:33.609
get on this box set. You get the band is
1492
01:11:34.050 --> 01:11:34.590
at full.
1493
01:11:34.649 --> 01:11:38.119
But what happens is this review comes out and the
1494
01:11:38.140 --> 01:11:41.539
story I heard is that the review comes out and
1495
01:11:41.600 --> 01:11:43.960
everyone on the bus is like, God damn it. Why
1496
01:11:43.979 --> 01:11:46.460
did USA Today write this about us? And Pat said, oh,
1497
01:11:46.479 --> 01:11:49.579
come on, we sucked. And everybody laughed. Meaning just sort
1498
01:11:49.619 --> 01:11:53.600
of taking, taking the piss out of the whole thing.
1499
01:11:53.699 --> 01:11:54.539
Come on, we were off.
1500
01:11:54.600 --> 01:11:56.699
Well, you know, also I love that. Who do you
1501
01:11:56.739 --> 01:11:59.140
call to take over the technical side of things in
1502
01:11:59.180 --> 01:12:01.819
a guitar band? The fucking guy from the germs. Yeah.
1503
01:12:02.039 --> 01:12:03.800
I can't think of a band. I can't think of
1504
01:12:03.859 --> 01:12:07.170
a band that is a closer parallel to the kind
1505
01:12:07.210 --> 01:12:10.409
of like uneasy feeling that you got from the weirdest
1506
01:12:10.489 --> 01:12:14.270
moments of Nirvana than the germs. Like their, their, their
1507
01:12:14.310 --> 01:12:18.090
whole thing had that same sort of, yeah. Like familiar,
1508
01:12:18.229 --> 01:12:22.060
but slightly sleazy and slightly uncomfortable quality. And it was
1509
01:12:22.109 --> 01:12:25.279
a sonic thing, like the sound of Pat Smear's guitar.
1510
01:12:25.699 --> 01:12:28.340
It sounded a little sour and a little, you know,
1511
01:12:28.359 --> 01:12:31.420
a little creepy. And it seemed like it was a natural.
1512
01:12:31.439 --> 01:12:32.720
As soon as I heard about it, I thought, oh, yeah,
1513
01:12:32.760 --> 01:12:33.479
that's a natural.
1514
01:12:33.779 --> 01:12:36.159
It was great. So when we came out to do
1515
01:12:36.199 --> 01:12:38.909
these shows, I mean, there were bigger shows. And I mean, really,
1516
01:12:38.930 --> 01:12:41.970
it was our first arena tour, you know, when.
1517
01:12:42.170 --> 01:12:44.090
Did you like playing the arenas?
1518
01:12:44.710 --> 01:12:46.390
It felt strange at first, I think.
1519
01:12:46.489 --> 01:12:46.739
I mean, I.
1520
01:12:47.609 --> 01:12:51.109
Towards the end of 1991, we did an arena tour
1521
01:12:51.189 --> 01:12:55.050
opening up for the Red Hot Chili Peppers. And, you know,
1522
01:12:55.069 --> 01:12:58.100
I was always afraid that what we did, that energy,
1523
01:12:58.140 --> 01:13:00.439
wouldn't translate in a bigger room.
1524
01:13:00.699 --> 01:13:00.899
Yep.
1525
01:13:01.000 --> 01:13:03.380
You know, because we were used to playing places this big.
1526
01:13:03.420 --> 01:13:06.340
And put us in the corner there, and the place explodes.
1527
01:13:06.399 --> 01:13:09.819
And it's amazing to try to, you know, move that
1528
01:13:10.279 --> 01:13:13.670
to a bigger room. It'd be hard. So, it felt weird.
1529
01:13:13.850 --> 01:13:15.770
All of a sudden, there was, like, caterers. Yeah, there
1530
01:13:15.810 --> 01:13:17.930
was caterers. We had a caterer on tour. And then
1531
01:13:17.970 --> 01:13:19.890
the catering fired him because they made the wrong Mac
1532
01:13:19.949 --> 01:13:22.149
and cheese because.
1533
01:13:21.949 --> 01:13:24.460
They had really good food. I thought it was really good.
1534
01:13:24.819 --> 01:13:29.180
And current like corn dogs and macaroni and cheese. And
1535
01:13:29.220 --> 01:13:30.500
our bologna sandwiches.
1536
01:13:30.600 --> 01:13:34.170
So they were making actual macaroni with actual cheese.
1537
01:13:34.189 --> 01:13:35.710
And he had never had that before.
1538
01:13:35.729 --> 01:13:37.630
And that was the last fucking straw.
1539
01:13:38.489 --> 01:13:41.489
You know, so it was just like, you know, it
1540
01:13:41.510 --> 01:13:44.029
was one of those things like, ah. And well, we
1541
01:13:44.050 --> 01:13:45.399
did a show. We had a show. It was a
1542
01:13:45.409 --> 01:13:48.300
90-minute show. We had a stage set up. We would
1543
01:13:48.340 --> 01:13:50.260
do our acoustic breakdown part.
1544
01:13:50.500 --> 01:13:51.300
Yeah, it was like pro shit.
1545
01:13:51.319 --> 01:13:54.579
We did the same show every night. It was like
1546
01:13:54.579 --> 01:13:56.119
$ 20 tickets. Tickets were like $ 20.
1547
01:13:56.060 --> 01:13:56.180
Yeah.
1548
01:13:57.279 --> 01:13:59.619
Because you could sell CDs and make money. And then
1549
01:13:59.640 --> 01:14:01.680
we had like working family prices.
1550
01:14:02.140 --> 01:14:04.699
But then also the best part was we're like, okay,
1551
01:14:04.729 --> 01:14:07.529
we're an arena band now. Cool. The opening band is
1552
01:14:07.550 --> 01:14:10.250
going to be the boredoms from Japan or the opening
1553
01:14:10.289 --> 01:14:12.729
band is going to be fucking the butthole surfers. So
1554
01:14:12.750 --> 01:14:14.550
you've got all these kids that like just bought their
1555
01:14:14.590 --> 01:14:17.130
Nirvana t-shirt and they come to the rock show to
1556
01:14:17.170 --> 01:14:20.539
see their favorite band. And they've got like Bobcat Goldthwait
1557
01:14:20.640 --> 01:14:23.539
is the MC. And then fucking the Butthole Surfers. And
1558
01:14:23.579 --> 01:14:25.439
the kids are like, what the fuck is going on?
1559
01:14:25.460 --> 01:14:28.500
How did Bobcat Goldthwait become the opener for Nirvana?
1560
01:14:28.920 --> 01:14:30.239
You guys were real fans.
1561
01:14:30.359 --> 01:14:33.390
We were fans. Kurt had Meet Bob, that record. And
1562
01:14:33.430 --> 01:14:35.050
then we just so happened to be, it was like
1563
01:14:35.090 --> 01:14:39.409
in 1990. And we were in like Michigan or Wisconsin
1564
01:14:39.470 --> 01:14:42.310
at a college radio station. And Bobcat was there. And
1565
01:14:42.510 --> 01:14:44.310
we was like, hey, we know you. He didn't know
1566
01:14:44.350 --> 01:14:46.890
who we were. Nobody knew who we were. Like, hey, we're. you're,
1567
01:14:46.949 --> 01:14:52.279
you're on police Academy. Like, and he, he tells us.
1568
01:14:52.239 --> 01:14:52.560
Where he goes.
1569
01:14:52.579 --> 01:14:52.739
Yeah.
1570
01:14:53.079 --> 01:14:53.600
I met them.
1571
01:14:53.659 --> 01:14:55.880
And I said, good luck with your little band. As
1572
01:14:57.520 --> 01:15:01.060
he said, goodbye. And then we just, I don't know.
1573
01:15:01.100 --> 01:15:03.090
We just got, he was sort of on our side,
1574
01:15:03.149 --> 01:15:06.689
like as, as, as a comedian. Sure. He was like
1575
01:15:06.869 --> 01:15:10.229
kind of a cynical subversive fucking weirdo.
1576
01:15:10.350 --> 01:15:10.689
Yeah. Yeah.
1577
01:15:10.850 --> 01:15:12.109
And so we liked him.
1578
01:15:12.350 --> 01:15:14.609
He got a bad review. Rex Reed gave him a
1579
01:15:14.649 --> 01:15:18.899
bad review. And he goes, he was my favorite judge
1580
01:15:18.979 --> 01:15:20.020
on the gong show.
1581
01:15:24.960 --> 01:15:27.420
Well, how do we sum this up? It's been 30
1582
01:15:27.420 --> 01:15:31.840
years and it must feel good that this work stands
1583
01:15:31.880 --> 01:15:32.659
the test of time.
1584
01:15:32.680 --> 01:15:35.489
It does feel good. We'll come back in the 50
1585
01:15:35.489 --> 01:15:37.869
year anniversary and see what kind of, what we have
1586
01:15:37.909 --> 01:15:42.750
to offer. And it's great that people are interested and
1587
01:15:43.149 --> 01:15:47.329
that we have the opportunity to do this and to add.
1588
01:15:47.350 --> 01:15:51.079
There's vinyl and there's live shows, so you won't be
1589
01:15:51.140 --> 01:15:54.380
tracked or have a cookie put on your consciousness. And
1590
01:15:54.439 --> 01:15:56.899
you can just put the tone arm down on a
1591
01:15:56.920 --> 01:15:59.560
piece of vinyl and listen to Nirvana live in Rome
1592
01:15:59.640 --> 01:16:03.979
or Los Angeles or Seattle and everywhere. it can capture
1593
01:16:04.000 --> 01:16:07.840
your imagination. You're invited to come inside that world and
1594
01:16:07.880 --> 01:16:12.560
experience that show. I'm just happy to have the opportunity.
1595
01:16:13.100 --> 01:16:16.109
You said that you don't play Nirvana at home. Is
1596
01:16:16.270 --> 01:16:18.510
this going to be an exception, do you think?
1597
01:16:18.529 --> 01:16:21.850
The cool thing about being a musician for a long time,
1598
01:16:21.909 --> 01:16:24.789
making a bunch of records, is that you eventually start
1599
01:16:24.909 --> 01:16:29.310
measuring your life not in increments of time or whatever.
1600
01:16:29.329 --> 01:16:33.069
It's like albums that you've made so if you ask
1601
01:16:33.109 --> 01:16:36.260
me about a particular record a scream record or a
1602
01:16:36.279 --> 01:16:38.960
foo fighters record or whatever i'll immediately know what year
1603
01:16:38.979 --> 01:16:42.939
it was made and i remember almost everything about where
1604
01:16:42.979 --> 01:16:45.539
i was and who i was at that time so
1605
01:16:45.560 --> 01:16:48.479
when i think like 30 years ago what the fucking
1606
01:16:48.619 --> 01:16:51.699
what's that even mean 30 years but if you say
1607
01:16:51.699 --> 01:16:55.239
1993 everything comes back and then when you listen to
1608
01:16:55.340 --> 01:16:58.399
it to me it's almost like these um they're sort
1609
01:16:58.430 --> 01:17:01.449
of like sonic snapshots like in a photo album or
1610
01:17:01.489 --> 01:17:04.409
something so when i when i hear the music it
1611
01:17:04.449 --> 01:17:08.119
brings back a lot of personal vivid memories of just
1612
01:17:08.159 --> 01:17:10.699
stupid shit like i remember that jacket that i had
1613
01:17:10.739 --> 01:17:12.960
or that stupid hat i bought in north carolina or
1614
01:17:13.560 --> 01:17:16.399
the sock full of mashed potatoes that fucking steve put
1615
01:17:16.439 --> 01:17:16.939
in my.
1616
01:17:17.260 --> 01:17:20.579
Yes he put it snuck in that leather coat i
1617
01:17:20.760 --> 01:17:22.119
felt bad when i got ripped off.
1618
01:17:22.079 --> 01:17:24.220
I know i was so sad but things like that
1619
01:17:24.239 --> 01:17:27.369
but then also um you know again you know i
1620
01:17:27.430 --> 01:17:30.689
refer to my children a lot because they're uh, discovering
1621
01:17:30.770 --> 01:17:33.069
music in the same way that, well, differently than we
1622
01:17:33.090 --> 01:17:35.170
did then, but sort of emotionally in the same way
1623
01:17:35.210 --> 01:17:38.199
that we did at their age. And, you know, to
1624
01:17:38.779 --> 01:17:43.739
see their reaction to this music now is really fucking cool. Actually,
1625
01:17:43.760 --> 01:17:46.460
we did this one, we did this, uh, this, uh,
1626
01:17:46.659 --> 01:17:50.039
charity benefit thing once that, uh, art of Elysium thing
1627
01:17:50.060 --> 01:17:53.210
that we did a long time ago. And we got
1628
01:17:53.270 --> 01:17:55.310
asked to play this thing in Los Angeles, but we
1629
01:17:55.329 --> 01:17:57.329
couldn't make it. And then the person who was putting
1630
01:17:57.369 --> 01:17:59.189
on the show said, well, why don't you just play acoustic?
1631
01:17:59.210 --> 01:18:00.550
I'm like, fuck, man, I don't want to do that.
1632
01:18:00.750 --> 01:18:02.659
So I thought, you know what? Maybe I'll call Chris
1633
01:18:03.159 --> 01:18:06.239
and Pat and see if... maybe Joan Jett will come
1634
01:18:06.300 --> 01:18:08.579
up and we could do some Nirvana songs or maybe
1635
01:18:08.979 --> 01:18:12.270
someone else is there, whatever. So we were thinking about
1636
01:18:12.319 --> 01:18:14.739
people to sing. And then I don't know who brought
1637
01:18:14.779 --> 01:18:16.750
it up, but maybe it was you that said, does
1638
01:18:16.770 --> 01:18:18.909
Violet want to sing a song? Or maybe it was Pat,
1639
01:18:19.149 --> 01:18:19.930
my daughter, Violet.
1640
01:18:20.270 --> 01:18:21.510
I saw this.
1641
01:18:21.829 --> 01:18:22.329
Did you see it?
1642
01:18:22.329 --> 01:18:23.810
I think there was, yeah, there was footage of it.
1643
01:18:23.909 --> 01:18:24.229
Yeah.
1644
01:18:24.329 --> 01:18:27.409
And so I was like, well, I'll ask her. And
1645
01:18:27.449 --> 01:18:31.050
I said, hey, Vi, she's an incredible singer. And she
1646
01:18:31.130 --> 01:18:33.829
really likes Nirvana. At the time, I think she was
1647
01:18:33.970 --> 01:18:38.279
maybe 14. probably 14, 14-year-old girl. I said, you want
1648
01:18:38.310 --> 01:18:40.859
to sing a Nirvana song? She's like, yeah, absolutely. I said,
1649
01:18:40.859 --> 01:18:44.529
which one of all of them, not just this record,
1650
01:18:44.529 --> 01:18:47.909
of all of them? And she picks heart shaped box.
1651
01:18:48.710 --> 01:18:51.380
And my first reaction was, what have I done to
1652
01:18:51.409 --> 01:18:55.760
my kid to fuck them up so bad that this
1653
01:18:55.859 --> 01:19:00.140
is the song they want to sing. But, um, but seriously,
1654
01:19:00.739 --> 01:19:04.319
I was, I was very, uh, proud. Yeah. And what
1655
01:19:04.340 --> 01:19:08.760
I realized is kids these days, there's like this window
1656
01:19:08.779 --> 01:19:11.100
of in between the ages of like maybe 10 and
1657
01:19:11.100 --> 01:19:14.699
13 or 11 and 14 or something like that, where
1658
01:19:15.140 --> 01:19:18.300
almost every kid goes through a Nirvana phase and it's
1659
01:19:18.359 --> 01:19:20.720
for a reason. And I think it has less to
1660
01:19:20.760 --> 01:19:24.460
do with the sound. I think it has more to
1661
01:19:24.500 --> 01:19:28.260
do with what it means because I think it means
1662
01:19:28.340 --> 01:19:30.760
the same thing today to those kids as it did
1663
01:19:31.119 --> 01:19:34.270
when we released it. So that to me is the
1664
01:19:34.279 --> 01:19:36.739
coolest thing and selling a lot of t-shirts. Yeah.
1665
01:19:37.350 --> 01:19:41.140
Uh, gentlemen, it has been an honor. Seriously, you're great
1666
01:19:41.199 --> 01:19:43.399
artists and you also have a lot of integrity and
1667
01:19:43.420 --> 01:19:45.819
you've stood the test of time. And so getting to
1668
01:19:45.859 --> 01:19:47.479
hang out with people like you is a big deal
1669
01:19:47.500 --> 01:19:52.609
to me and I really appreciate it. So, uh, Steve, Chris, Dave,
1670
01:19:52.989 --> 01:19:56.029
thank you very much for doing this. And, uh, I
1671
01:19:56.069 --> 01:19:57.630
was really looking forward to this one and you did
1672
01:19:57.670 --> 01:19:58.310
not disappoint.
1673
01:19:58.329 --> 01:19:59.050
Thanks, man.
1674
01:19:59.130 --> 01:19:59.850
Thank you very much.
1675
01:20:00.350 --> 01:20:01.350
I'm happy to be your friend.
1676
01:20:01.689 --> 01:20:03.510
Well, I got you there. Yeah.
1677
01:20:03.750 --> 01:20:05.390
Less than the anxiety considerably.
1678
01:20:05.630 --> 01:20:06.409
I feel jazzy.
1679
01:20:07.189 --> 01:20:11.689
Still effervescent you look effervescent.
1680
01:20:12.390 --> 01:20:15.859
Conan o'brien needs a friend with conan o'brien sonam of
1681
01:20:15.899 --> 01:20:19.960
sessian and matt gorley produced by me matt gorley executive
1682
01:20:19.979 --> 01:20:22.939
produced by adam sacks nick leal and jeff ross at
1683
01:20:23.000 --> 01:20:26.020
team coco and colin anderson and cody fisher at your
1684
01:20:26.060 --> 01:20:29.880
wolf theme song by the white stripes incidental music by
1685
01:20:29.939 --> 01:20:35.989
jimmy vivino take it away jimmy Our supervising producer is
1686
01:20:36.010 --> 01:20:39.140
Aaron Blair, and our associate talent producer is Jennifer Samples.
1687
01:20:39.539 --> 01:20:43.539
Engineering by Eduardo Perez. Additional production support by Mars Melnick.
1688
01:20:43.979 --> 01:20:47.289
Talent booking by Paula Davis, Gina Batista, and Britt Kahn.
1689
01:20:47.960 --> 01:20:50.279
You can rate and review this show on Apple Podcasts
1690
01:20:50.380 --> 01:20:53.060
and you might find your review read on a future episode.
1691
01:20:53.239 --> 01:20:56.890
Got a question for Conan? Call the Team Coco hotline
1692
01:20:57.109 --> 01:21:00.590
at 669-587-2847 and leave a message. It too could be
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featured on a future episode. And if you haven't already,
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please subscribe to Conan O'Brien Needs a Friend wherever fine
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podcasts are downloaded.
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This is how we do it.
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01:21:18.140 --> 01:21:20.760
With Super Value's Real Rewards prices, you can now get
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weekly savings on thousands of brands you know and love
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when you scan at the till. All you have to
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01:21:25.430 --> 01:21:28.710
do is simply download your Real Rewards app, scan the
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app at the till, and get great savings on your shopping.
1702
01:21:32.510 --> 01:21:34.489
New Real Rewards prices from Super Value.
1703
01:21:34.890 --> 01:21:35.829
Yes, you scan.
1704
01:21:35.850 --> 01:21:38.770
Ho, ho, ho.
1705
01:21:39.010 --> 01:21:39.300
Nope.
1706
01:21:39.810 --> 01:21:43.199
It's too early for that. You can't control how quickly
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Christmas is coming, but you can control those dreaded winter
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energy costs by switching to prepay power. With pay-as-you-go energy,
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there's no bills and you're always in control of what
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you spend. And new customers get 100 euro welcome credit
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by switching now. Prepay power, hello control. Get 100 euro
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welcome credit when you switch today at prepaypower.ie. Terms and
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conditions apply.