Why Good Manufacturers Ask So Many Questions Before Quoting You

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You're listening to china manufacturing decoded from the sofeast group
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hello listeners and welcome back to the china manufacturing decoded podcast
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from the sophie's group it's adrian hosting and paul adams joins me today hello paul adrian
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how you doing long time you'll see how yeah i'm good thanks yeah i know well
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we were just talking off air i will be back at chinese new year then we can
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meet in person but yeah it's it's been a few weeks since you were last on but
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we do like a deep dive with you
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I think this one's lined up just for me it really is.
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Yes because what we're looking at today is something that
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i guess can sometimes frustrate buyers and the sorts of people that would approach
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us at Agilian, which is our contract manufacturing subsidiary,
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literally be asking you these questions.
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So they might say, why do experienced manufacturing and engineering teams
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Ask so many questions before they will give me a firm answer or even a reliable
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quotation because they want to go in and they want to just say,
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okay, I've got this product. I want to work with you guys.
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I want to get it built. Can you quote me?
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And if you say, yep, that's what it's going to cost. That's how long it's going
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to take. There you go. Boom.
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But maybe it's not really that simple, right? And that's what we're going to get into today.
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So I think they might send drawings, CAD files, specs, requirements,
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and maybe they think, oh, Paul's just going to review these and come back with
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a price. That's it. It'll be simple.
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But when they get a bunch of questions, they might feel like,
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well, this is kind of slowing the process down.
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Actually, by asking those questions and then by getting answers,
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it might be the opposite because that will fundamentally end up speeding things
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up, as I'm sure we'll get into when we go down the road of the development and manufacturing.
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So the objective of today, Paul, is to explain what a good manufacturer is really
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trying to uncover when they're asking all of those questions.
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And maybe you can also, you know, give some insights into what buyers can do
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to provide better information up front, which can sort of reduce a bit of unnecessary
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back and forth and again speed things up and maybe reduce risks so
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the obvious place paul to start is this why ask all those questions well
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You're right you're right and uh and asking questions is is one of those things
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that you know sometimes people think well i'm not going to ask that because,
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you already know it well that's an assumption.
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And, you know, assumption's a really, really dangerous place to get into.
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Now, I've been in the game for a,
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a long time let's let's call it a long time okay so i've seen,
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good the bad and the ugly let's say of how to deal with it and what questions
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are asked what questions are not asked and the only stupid question let's say,
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is the question that is never asked okay,
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and another way to say it is the answer is always no, unless you ask.
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Because that is always the default answer. Don't need it because it was never
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asked. We never talked about it. So therefore, it's not needed.
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So always, always, always, please understand when a contract manufacturer comes
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back to you with a bunch of questions, which we will.
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And this is natural. So let's get into why we ask and why it's important basically so
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as a buyer you would send in like you said adrian you'd send in a bunch of files
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and so maybe you've got a cad drawing maybe you've got a sketch or whatever the case may be and.
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Basically it's the files of what you think is exactly what is required to get
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a quotation okay so the customer comes back with,
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uh no problem sir that's going to be x amount of thousand dollars and that's
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going to take you uh sort of xxx time okay so,
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you think that's all good you've asked the questions through the data,
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okay that is not enough if you're working with a contract manufacturer that
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doesn't come back with a certain set of questions or any questions at all you
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are working with the wrong contract manufacturer okay because they are making assumptions
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Those assumptions, we'll talk about this later on, get baked into the product
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requirement specification as a default.
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So, for example, a customer submits a tolerance, and the tolerance is 0.002,
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super, super tight, because they think that's a cool thing to do.
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As a contract manufacturer, as someone that's seasoned, someone that knows what
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they're doing, they're going to review the CAD file or the drawings or the sketch
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or whatever, and look at the parts and say, hold on a minute,
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this doesn't really make sense.
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Okay, I'm going to go back to you as a buyer, as the customer and say,
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you've got a really tight tolerance here.
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Okay, it doesn't really make sense because it's in fresh air,
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this part. So it could actually be 0.5.
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Is that okay? Not just okay, but the explanation behind it.
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So the explanation should be, and Mr. Customer, because this is in fresh air,
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okay, You can save a lot of money on processing because every time you add a
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zero after the decimal point, that adds X amount of,
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dollars or a percentage higher on the processing cost.
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So the question is, do you really need that?
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And because of this, this, and this, you could save or you could prevent things going on.
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So it's really a case of never underestimate the question that comes back,
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particularly if they've got a valid reason behind the question.
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If that tolerance was left in and no questions were asked, that tolerance would
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be met and you would get charged for it.
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So your part cost would go up unnecessary because you don't need it.
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But it wasn't talked about. You never raised it.
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The contract manufacturer never raised it, therefore it was baked in as an assumption that...
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You, the buyer, the customer, that's what you requested. So that's what you got. So, you know,
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it's really a case of understanding what the question is. Look for the question
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and make sure the question has something to back it up.
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Okay, so that's the first point. Definitely.
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You you mentioned that so we're asking these questions right and so to give
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some guidance to the listeners who are likely to be
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you know wanting to work with a cm and might be asked these questions what
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what's the cm looking for what's the manufacturer looking for is the kind of
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a list of stuff that generally they're trying to feel out from this
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Well yeah generally so what let's call it we we're a contract manufacturer so
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let's do it in this way so basically a number of things that we would be looking for is,
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the function okay what does the part or the parts do okay so we need to understand
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what the function of the product is okay,
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so that's key i'm going to use this i've got a water bottle here so what's the
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function of the cap okay the function of the at is to stop the water coming out,
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but it's got more to do with that okay it holds pressure if i squeeze that and it's full,
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it's got pressure build up okay so it needs to be watertight okay so there's
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two things tight watertight,
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that's a very very simple scenario but it's really understanding what the function
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of the product is okay and then breaking that down into the function of the parts okay,
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the next one we're looking at is really the environment that the product is
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going to be used in this is really key okay a lot of people again just make
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assumptions that the part's going to be used in,
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let's call it europe or america somewhere north america south america doesn't
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matter and that's the assumption okay.
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But what we don't know is, is this going to be used in a high temperature?
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Is it going to be low temperature? What about humidity? Humidity plays a big role in this.
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Is it going to be indoors? Is it going to be outdoors? UV sunlight?
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All of this affects the part, particularly if it's a plastic part or a polymer.
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That has a huge effect on things.
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Is it subjected to chemical contact? What about high loads? What about repeatable bending?
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Everything like this, all the environmental stuff that needs to go in,
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that drives generally the material selection and the surface finish selection.
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Okay, absolutely critical. If you say to us, hey, well, the parts are used indoors, that's it.
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It needs to be plastic, simple. Now, to be fair, some customers that we get
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are, this is the first time rodeo.
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OK, so this is where you need to ask more questions.
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And we would ask a lot more questions because we would understand that this
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is the first time you've got a product going through the MPI process.
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And maybe you're not too familiar with some of these terminologies or some of
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the questions we're asking.
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So we would spend time explaining this in more detail so you've got a better understanding.
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The more information that crosses over, the best of the product will be, ultimately.
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So that's two things that I've talked about. Another one I want to talk about,
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Adrian, and bring up here is mating parts. Okay.
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Now, what is the function?
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And what about the mating part of this part and this part?
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Now, what I'm talking about there is the fit and the form of the product itself.
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Can you imagine we've got two products? Now, do they, is it a slide fit?
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Is it a friction fit? Is it a snap fit together?
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Is it has to be a clearance. All of these aspects really go into the tolerances,
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and what we call a tolerance stack up.
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Okay. So if we've got a number of parts that have all got the same tolerance
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and everything is on the top end of that tolerance and everything that's on
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the top end of the tolerance this end, we've got an interference potentially. Okay.
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Whereas these two mating parts that ultimately come together have to have a
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clearance. So we've got something wrong.
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So the tolerance stack up is another critical thing at a game.
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That's a whole different ballgame.
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So mating parts, so we've done function, environment, we've done mating parts
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on how they actually interact with each other and what the purpose is there. Another one is,
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How many of these products are you going to be building? Okay.
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Is this a one-off prototype? If it's a one-off prototype, then manufacturing
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is going to be slightly different. And we'll potentially look at alternative
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materials for you when we're building a one-off prototype.
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Or is it a one-off golden sample that's going to go in a showroom like an F1
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car concept model, something like this?
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Or is it going to be a million units a year? Okay.
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Whatever your answer is will determine, potentially, the manufacturing process.
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We've got hand-built prototypes, a lot of hands-on finishing.
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We've got CNC machining. We've got huge mass production or injection molding
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or other tooling where we're pumping out parts to the million.
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So depending on what you want is something that will determine the manufacturing process.
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And the last one I want to touch on here, Adrian, is really...
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What is your inspection criteria? Now, if this question is not asked by your
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contract manufacturer, please, you ask the question because this is super, super important.
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When I'm talking about an inspection criteria, we don't know necessarily as
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a contract manufacturer what is acceptable to you.
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You are the design authority on your product.
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We make it as a contract manufacturer. We would produce the part.
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We would put everything together and do the best that we could possibly do to
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give you the the best product but when it comes to.
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And we hear this time and time again what color do you want it well i want it,
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apple one okay or here's a picture that i've taken as a screenshot i want it that color okay great,
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not great in fact only yesterday i had a customer ah guys you painted at the
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wrong color okay so or give us a photograph,
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so he got the photograph he had the the pentone color reference chart,
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he sent a photograph and looked it looked the same to me okay,
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i jumped on a zoom call with a guy in the light you think ah it is slightly
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different it's slightly different so sending a photograph which to be fair this
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particular customer did,
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sign off on the photograph and said, yeah, that was pretty cool,
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I'm happy with that, send it,
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sent it, he got it in the light, it's all wrong.
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We don't know, unless you actually specify for a color, please specify the Pantone
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color or the round number, so it's very, very specific.
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Things need to be specific, okay? We also talk about inspection from tolerances.
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What is the correct tolerance? We've already talked about 0.002 being very,
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very expensive, but it may be the case, it has to be the case,
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with these two sliding parts, for example.
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Or, we'll take my mouse here,
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If it's got a scratch on it, okay, is that acceptable to you? Well, probably not.
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But if the scratch is on the side, still probably not.
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If the scratch is on the inside, never going to be seen, that's probably going
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to be okay because it can still be used, but it's not going to have an effect
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from a cosmetic point of view and everything's going to be okay.
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But if you say no scratches anywhere, our quality team or the quality team within
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your contract manufacturer will look at that, will look at the scratch on the
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inside and go, well, this is a reject.
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Everyone to reject because it's got a scratch in it because the assumption was
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made that literally you said no scratches anywhere so someone read that and
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said ah anywhere that means anywhere whereas,
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the inspection criteria or your quality criteria should say external or a faces
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wouldn't call references a face,
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is what i'm talking about no scratches on a b face In other words,
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internal, where nobody's ever, ever going to see it,
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is somewhat acceptable, but to this level.
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And again, we need to go down to the specifics with respect to this is okay,
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but that's not okay, for example.
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So from those things, these really, really important questions that your contract
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manufacturers should be asking. If they're not asking, then you should actually
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provide that information because you're now aware of it.
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Okay.
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So on the, I can see how important those questions are, right?
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That makes sense to me and hopefully the listeners as well. Right.
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But I think there are like a couple of scenarios where either the customer or
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the manufacturer don't ask those questions. Right.
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I think number one, you might encounter a manufacturer, be it in China or elsewhere,
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who kind of says, okay, I've got your files, I've got your design.
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Yep, we can do it. Here's the price. Let's crack on.
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Let's just do this and get working. And to some customers, they might think,
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oh, that's brilliant. We can really start motoring now.
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And maybe that's kind of seen as a positive.
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Perhaps for more, the more simple the products, maybe that is more of a suitable
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approach, but really, you know, we'll get into this.
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And then the second one is the customer wants to power through and doesn't have
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the patience to answer such questions.
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So they instruct the manufacturer to push and they don't, they're not very receptive
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to those sorts of questions. Maybe they think this is slowing us down.
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We don't need to go through all of this stuff.
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They know what they're doing let's just do this right i can see you laughing
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you've probably encountered this sort of stuff before right so
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We already know the questions are important because you've taken us through
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it but if for whatever reason whether you're scenario one or two the questions
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kind of get skipped what's what's going on with that do we have some sort of risks here
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Well yeah because you know it's if you don't know you don't know okay that's
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a fairly obvious statement but it's a very very true statement so you as the
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buyer as the customer may think well,
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i've given as much information as i know because i don't know anymore or what
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else to give so which is fine
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and the contract manufacturer has asked me a lot of questions which i've answered
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to the best of my ability so therefore the assumption is that all the information
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is on the table all of the questions have been asked however,
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this is where you need to be careful this is something that i talked about earlier
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with respect to assumptions getting baked in okay,
00:18:33.475 --> 00:18:40.934
And it's okay working with a mature contract manufacturer, but it's really,
00:18:41.619 --> 00:18:46.813
looking at the level of detail and how they ask the questions,
00:18:46.813 --> 00:18:49.125
Adrian. It's all about how they ask.
00:18:49.595 --> 00:18:54.333
I said earlier, what about this tolerance? Do you really need that tolerance?
00:18:54.652 --> 00:18:57.253
Well, that's a good question. but as.
00:18:59.853 --> 00:19:03.870
A newbie let's say doing your first product and putting that through to production,
00:19:04.312 --> 00:19:08.473
you wouldn't know whether that's right or wrong because the contract manufacturer
00:19:08.473 --> 00:19:10.233
asked the question you're assuming that,
00:19:11.013 --> 00:19:16.033
yeah i do need it because they didn't give you anything else okay that then
00:19:16.033 --> 00:19:24.815
gets baked in okay nothing else is said about it okay that's a risk because that risk means that one,
00:19:25.507 --> 00:19:27.748
is a really tight tolerance, okay?
00:19:28.016 --> 00:19:30.337
The risk is nothing to do with about money.
00:19:30.673 --> 00:19:33.727
It's all about the failure rates, okay?
00:19:34.029 --> 00:19:38.893
Because on a very tight tolerance, your reject rate will go through the roof
00:19:39.213 --> 00:19:43.803
simply because it's such a tight tolerance in order to keep the,
00:19:43.803 --> 00:19:47.273
there are going to be many rejects because they're out of tolerance.
00:19:47.273 --> 00:19:49.483
If it's out of tolerance, it's going to get scrapped off.
00:19:49.825 --> 00:19:55.273
Now, when I say it's not to do with about the money, it is because you get charged
00:19:55.273 --> 00:19:57.521
for all these rejects. This is called a loss rate.
00:19:58.630 --> 00:20:02.966
If your loss rate goes up 10%, 15%, 20%,
00:20:03.690 --> 00:20:06.755
Who's paying for that? You are. You are as the customer.
00:20:06.963 --> 00:20:12.166
So this is a high risk strategy with respect to baking in that assumption.
00:20:12.566 --> 00:20:16.357
Okay. This could have tremendous negative effects.
00:20:18.540 --> 00:20:22.644
On the build itself, the quality of the products, and the cost at the end of
00:20:22.644 --> 00:20:26.224
the day. So that's a massive risk looking at that from that point of view.
00:20:26.874 --> 00:20:31.001
Another one I want to talk about is reworks.
00:20:32.037 --> 00:20:39.189
Again, talking about firsthand, I've seen this where a product has gone through.
00:20:39.398 --> 00:20:42.091
What's the specification? Well, it needs to do X, Y, Z.
00:20:42.573 --> 00:20:44.874
Okay. What about ABC?
00:20:45.374 --> 00:20:49.034
No, no, no, no. We don't need to do ABC. It only needs to meet X,
00:20:49.034 --> 00:20:51.412
Y, Z. Great. Okay. So we've designed it.
00:20:51.807 --> 00:20:54.622
We're injection molded. We've done all of the rest of it.
00:20:55.185 --> 00:20:57.246
Okay. We tested it.
00:20:57.909 --> 00:21:05.477
We tested it for XYZ. And guess what? ABC come around and bit us on the rear.
00:21:05.965 --> 00:21:12.153
Because the assumption was that the customer knew about the product.
00:21:12.799 --> 00:21:18.378
As a contract manufacturer, in this particular case, it was not us. It was somebody else.
00:21:18.802 --> 00:21:22.122
But they did not push back with respect to, hold on a minute.
00:21:22.435 --> 00:21:25.129
This product does this. We've already talked about the function.
00:21:25.321 --> 00:21:28.604
We've already talked about the environment, and there was these two aspects
00:21:28.604 --> 00:21:32.074
that actually came around with respect to we should have been looking at this
00:21:32.074 --> 00:21:34.881
from the ABC side, not the XYZ side.
00:21:36.298 --> 00:21:41.154
So again, because it was assumed from the contract manufacturer's point of view
00:21:41.154 --> 00:21:44.222
that the customer actually knew all about this product,
00:21:44.996 --> 00:21:50.294
that we didn't ask any more questions, or no more questions were asked in that particular case.
00:21:51.356 --> 00:21:58.105
So again, massive risk with respect to not really understanding or taking the
00:21:58.105 --> 00:22:01.634
assumption that the customer in this case knew,
00:22:02.111 --> 00:22:06.625
everything about the product, and we didn't push in different directions.
00:22:06.625 --> 00:22:11.027
I say we, it was somebody else. It was in this particular case, just in the habit.
00:22:11.905 --> 00:22:18.515
But you know it's a massive risk that is baked into the product development
00:22:18.515 --> 00:22:20.726
as you move forward once it's in,
00:22:21.184 --> 00:22:25.620
you know you've got a massive amount of risk with respect to the product failing
00:22:25.793 --> 00:22:28.006
because it was never looked at from the other side,
00:22:28.645 --> 00:22:34.659
two once you realize it is a risk and that risk actually comes to the surface,
00:22:35.117 --> 00:22:43.024
you've got a lot of time in order to rectify the issue and cost in order to rework or,
00:22:43.663 --> 00:22:47.285
rework the parts or rework the tooling or modify the tooling.
00:22:47.665 --> 00:22:51.562
Either way, you're talking at an extended time at a higher cost.
00:22:52.515 --> 00:22:57.715
So again, yes, there are a lot of risks with respect to whichever way you look
00:22:57.715 --> 00:22:59.108
at that, Adrian. You're right.
00:23:00.617 --> 00:23:06.444
And again, another example I've got down here is we talk about surface finish.
00:23:06.704 --> 00:23:13.931
Okay surface finish is super super important on certain things okay for example on a cookware
00:23:14.326 --> 00:23:18.785
okay if you've got a cookware or kitchen product or a kitchen appliance or whatever
00:23:18.785 --> 00:23:22.676
the case may be the customer comes along and says right i want this anodized
00:23:23.100 --> 00:23:27.853
okay okay so it's an aluminum product we know that or aluminum as we would say,
00:23:28.797 --> 00:23:33.640
And, um, so, okay, yeah, no, we'll, we'll do this anodized. What color do you
00:23:33.640 --> 00:23:35.441
want this? I want this a standard black.
00:23:35.865 --> 00:23:39.540
Okay. What color black? Now, anodizing does have its own color reference,
00:23:39.540 --> 00:23:42.805
so I'm not going to go into the anodizing color reference, but again,
00:23:43.084 --> 00:23:46.573
specifics are the key here. Okay.
00:23:47.728 --> 00:23:51.814
We do the anodizing, right? It's the correct, like, trouble is,
00:23:52.626 --> 00:23:55.551
your customer didn't actually say, oh, I need that hard-coated,
00:23:55.551 --> 00:24:00.351
I need that non-slip, I need, like, the additional surface finish on there,
00:24:00.629 --> 00:24:04.345
or I need electroplating, or I need whatever the case may be.
00:24:04.722 --> 00:24:08.664
Again, it's not asking enough questions between you.
00:24:08.994 --> 00:24:13.611
Now, often or not, it's a case of challenging each other in order to,
00:24:13.611 --> 00:24:15.757
like, oh, yeah, never thought of that. What about this and this?
00:24:16.123 --> 00:24:18.471
And the customer will come back, oh, you're right. What about this,
00:24:18.471 --> 00:24:20.210
this, and this? What's the answer there?
00:24:20.846 --> 00:24:22.921
We'll go and find out. And ultimately,
00:24:22.921 --> 00:24:29.153
we come up with the correct answer before anything is produced.
00:24:29.640 --> 00:24:33.661
Okay? That is the ideal scenario. As soon as you start producing things and
00:24:33.661 --> 00:24:36.895
things go wrong, guess what? Money, time.
00:24:37.991 --> 00:24:39.432
Simple as that. Yeah.
00:24:39.699 --> 00:24:45.311
Okay. So, yeah, it's about risk management, actually. So, add it to the list.
00:24:45.611 --> 00:24:50.212
Stuff we don't want to skip while we are developing and manufacturing a product right
00:24:51.673 --> 00:24:57.621
so as as the on the manufacturing side let's say we've got a buyer coming to
00:24:57.621 --> 00:25:05.060
us at agilion and that you know they've sent the rfq to us what would be your wish list of of
00:25:05.835 --> 00:25:10.811
actions they can take to reduce the amount of back and forth that's going to
00:25:10.811 --> 00:25:13.399
be needed before we can actually get into,
00:25:13.910 --> 00:25:16.505
you know, the project properly.
00:25:16.505 --> 00:25:21.345
Okay. Yeah. So basically what we're looking for is more information.
00:25:21.345 --> 00:25:27.522
And again, this is really about the contract manufacturer asking and providing
00:25:27.946 --> 00:25:29.861
the correct set of questions.
00:25:30.035 --> 00:25:36.513
And again, if this is a two-way thing, so much the better. And generally that is the case. Okay.
00:25:36.908 --> 00:25:41.595
So let's, let's go through a few points here so we've got the cad right the
00:25:41.595 --> 00:25:50.710
cad is basically a 3d dimensional product okay but it's used for manufacturing.
00:25:51.720 --> 00:25:58.837
But what is more useful is the 2d drawing okay so the 2d drawing has more
00:25:59.180 --> 00:26:04.125
specific information on it and this is where the real information comes into
00:26:04.125 --> 00:26:08.003
play with respect to producing a product, okay?
00:26:08.270 --> 00:26:13.325
For example, you've got the drawing. On the drawing, right, we've got all the
00:26:13.325 --> 00:26:16.695
dimensions, generic dimensions 0.002.
00:26:16.695 --> 00:26:18.998
We've already talked about that. It doesn't need to be that,
00:26:19.259 --> 00:26:23.735
but you need to understand what does need to be tight, what doesn't need to be tight, okay?
00:26:24.025 --> 00:26:30.817
So, we need to call out the specific tolerances now we've got functional tolerances
00:26:31.020 --> 00:26:33.574
we've talked about the slip and the gap okay,
00:26:34.265 --> 00:26:38.705
we've talked about the snap bit if that's loose that's no good if it's too tight
00:26:38.705 --> 00:26:44.285
it's going to break okay so this is where tolerances must be held okay some
00:26:44.285 --> 00:26:46.425
of those are going to be tighter than others okay,
00:26:47.353 --> 00:26:55.279
versus information only okay like the the lug with the 0.002 no need it's got
00:26:55.279 --> 00:26:59.794
0.5 it's fine or even 0.1 it's fine whatever the case may be.
00:27:00.769 --> 00:27:05.233
It's it's not needed it's just in press share okay it's information only okay
00:27:05.518 --> 00:27:09.622
so make sure all that relevant information is on the 2d drawings Okay.
00:27:09.930 --> 00:27:17.429
Another one is about if a part A mates with part B, make sure that you're providing
00:27:17.429 --> 00:27:19.756
the correct information on both the drawings.
00:27:20.029 --> 00:27:26.402
Okay. This part meets with that part on part XYZ, whatever that part number is.
00:27:26.797 --> 00:27:32.199
On that particular drawing, say this part referenced over here is also important
00:27:32.199 --> 00:27:34.296
because that matches or mates with.
00:27:34.807 --> 00:27:39.719
So you've got information from one part pointing in the direction of the macy
00:27:39.719 --> 00:27:44.164
part of the other one okay this information is super important to have,
00:27:44.669 --> 00:27:50.379
for the manufacturer okay surface finish roughness all this information should
00:27:50.379 --> 00:27:56.332
be called out welding now when we're talking about welding it's like don't just put welded surfaces
00:27:56.738 --> 00:28:01.639
you know we've got very very specific welding symbols and style of welding and
00:28:01.639 --> 00:28:05.399
the quality of welding whether it be a fillip weld flat weld joint weld,
00:28:05.863 --> 00:28:11.715
all the information is specific and needs to go on to the drawing itself okay all of this.
00:28:12.409 --> 00:28:18.609
Is easy easy to forget and leave off if it's left off guess where we're back
00:28:18.609 --> 00:28:22.409
at square one making the assumptions the assumptions get baked in all of a sudden
00:28:22.409 --> 00:28:25.940
your part doesn't make it okay so super super important,
00:28:26.602 --> 00:28:30.629
as well as all of these specifics make sure you've got on there it doesn't matter
00:28:30.629 --> 00:28:35.900
if you've got a whole list of text information on your drawing put it on there.
00:28:36.769 --> 00:28:41.642
Critical to quality is another term you'll see, or CTQ, okay?
00:28:41.642 --> 00:28:45.210
That's another term that you will see or should see on the drawings.
00:28:45.778 --> 00:28:49.602
Ask the question if you don't understand anything, because this information
00:28:49.602 --> 00:28:52.722
should come from your contract manufacturer because you've got the design,
00:28:52.722 --> 00:28:57.017
you've got the product, you've designed it, you said, yeah, everything looks okay.
00:28:57.406 --> 00:29:01.182
The drawings, you should see the drawings and say, whoa, whoa,
00:29:01.182 --> 00:29:04.320
whoa, whoa, what's that all about? You know, ask the question.
00:29:04.970 --> 00:29:08.722
Remember what I said at the start. The only stupid question is the questions
00:29:08.722 --> 00:29:10.850
you don't ask or never get asked.
00:29:11.796 --> 00:29:17.985
So look at all the information that is from a manufacturing point of view to start with.
00:29:19.310 --> 00:29:24.035
We could go on and on and on because there's another side of it with respect to quality.
00:29:24.424 --> 00:29:28.778
Okay. But that's another day. I want to talk about manufacturing and getting
00:29:28.778 --> 00:29:34.608
the product to the state where it's going to work and function without being
00:29:34.948 --> 00:29:39.087
over specified on the tolerances or the surface finish.
00:29:39.586 --> 00:29:42.727
And it just needs to be functional and correct.
00:29:43.378 --> 00:29:47.288
Okay. So put as much information on those drawings. If he can't get out of the
00:29:47.288 --> 00:29:51.743
drawings, put a supplementary PDF or document that goes with it and say,
00:29:52.178 --> 00:29:54.994
here's the assembly instructions for this, this, and this, and this.
00:29:55.963 --> 00:30:02.558
More information, the better. Because more information means all of the questions
00:30:02.558 --> 00:30:08.037
are being asked and all of the data has been provided. Make sense?
00:30:08.414 --> 00:30:11.956
Yes. speaking of the information right i think
00:30:13.088 --> 00:30:18.548
earlier you know you were talking about why experienced manufacturers we were
00:30:18.548 --> 00:30:24.098
talking about why experienced manufacturers ask these questions right and you'd probably agree
00:30:25.164 --> 00:30:31.048
it's it's quality not quantity of questions and maybe more experienced manufacturers
00:30:31.048 --> 00:30:36.878
ask fewer but they're more sort of pertinent so where does that experience show
00:30:36.878 --> 00:30:39.735
up most when we actually start working on the project?
00:30:41.368 --> 00:30:44.321
That's a very, very good question. I'm glad you brought that one up, Adrian.
00:30:44.814 --> 00:30:47.978
It's, and I've seen this before, I've seen this before, yeah,
00:30:47.978 --> 00:30:51.345
you get loads and loads of questions coming about from your contract manufacturer,
00:30:51.594 --> 00:30:54.636
or we'll get some questions coming from the customer, okay?
00:30:55.066 --> 00:31:00.288
And it's very, very obvious to see if you're working with an inexperienced versus
00:31:00.288 --> 00:31:02.745
an experienced contract manufacturer.
00:31:03.163 --> 00:31:08.357
For example, we talked about dimensions. Okay, let me sort of jump onto that one for a little bit.
00:31:09.054 --> 00:31:13.538
So we're talking about geometric dimensioning and tolerancing,
00:31:13.538 --> 00:31:15.931
or GDT is commonly known as.
00:31:16.372 --> 00:31:18.405
We've got some GDTs all over the place.
00:31:18.859 --> 00:31:23.001
And the inexperienced contract manufacturer will come back and say,
00:31:23.536 --> 00:31:27.508
okay, understand that, no problems, we've got it, it's all good.
00:31:28.495 --> 00:31:34.518
Whereas an experienced contract manufacturer will work with their machine shop,
00:31:34.518 --> 00:31:38.876
the machine shop will come back and say, ah, what about the datum structure?
00:31:39.292 --> 00:31:43.418
Does that make sense from a functional point of view? And the last more in-depth
00:31:43.418 --> 00:31:48.793
questions, in other words, the quality of the questions, which you mentioned earlier, is key.
00:31:49.135 --> 00:31:54.748
This is what shows up from an experienced versus inexperienced sort of contract
00:31:54.748 --> 00:31:58.258
manufacturer or machine shop or whoever we're talking to.
00:31:58.775 --> 00:32:00.876
Another one is materials.
00:32:01.818 --> 00:32:07.001
I did mention earlier with respect to plastics, plastics, work, very, very wrong there.
00:32:07.598 --> 00:32:12.008
Is understanding the plastics. If you're talking about, can you make my product
00:32:12.008 --> 00:32:18.526
out of a good general engineering polymer, the inexperience will go,
00:32:18.758 --> 00:32:22.328
yeah, no problems. We're just going to use ABS on everything.
00:32:23.138 --> 00:32:28.187
Because we know that ABS is a fantastic general engineering polymer. So we're all good.
00:32:28.815 --> 00:32:32.838
Well, not necessarily the case. And again, there's the in-depth questions with
00:32:32.838 --> 00:32:35.253
respect to what's the function of that product?
00:32:35.421 --> 00:32:38.118
Where is it going to be used? Is it going to be used inside or is it going to
00:32:38.118 --> 00:32:40.918
be outside? What about the environment? What about the humidity,
00:32:40.918 --> 00:32:42.201
et cetera, et cetera, et cetera?
00:32:42.451 --> 00:32:46.098
And they will say, well, actually, ABS is not that particularly good in this
00:32:46.098 --> 00:32:51.528
particular area because, okay, and they'll say, what about using this particular polymer?
00:32:51.528 --> 00:32:54.698
Or what about changing that polymer to a metal, for example,
00:32:54.698 --> 00:32:59.798
because we can do the overmolding and give you this particular advantage if
00:32:59.798 --> 00:33:01.247
we go down that road, okay?
00:33:01.554 --> 00:33:05.318
So we're not actually taking everything as a blind, yeah, everything's good,
00:33:05.318 --> 00:33:09.853
mate, to a more in-depth, okay, let's analyze each part,
00:33:10.584 --> 00:33:14.491
What material is best suited for each of those parts? What about the macing
00:33:14.491 --> 00:33:15.878
faces and where it's going to be used?
00:33:16.830 --> 00:33:20.620
And on top of that, the cost and the assemblability.
00:33:20.806 --> 00:33:24.721
Now, assemblability, we've already talked about this in previous podcasts,
00:33:24.721 --> 00:33:29.577
which is DFM, DFX, or whatever the case may be, designed for exit.
00:33:30.651 --> 00:33:35.371
So all of these need to be considered. So if you're hearing these questions
00:33:35.371 --> 00:33:39.022
come back your way, and thinking, oh, I'm working with a mature,
00:33:39.638 --> 00:33:44.462
well-educated contract manufacturer here, which is good.
00:33:45.199 --> 00:33:49.451
The secondary operations is another thing. I've already talked about the CAD.
00:33:49.451 --> 00:33:51.962
Now the CAD is the master model, okay?
00:33:52.757 --> 00:33:56.874
If your contract manufacturer says, we're just going to make everything from
00:33:56.874 --> 00:34:00.218
the CAD, everything's going to be good, no problems. What about the drawings?
00:34:01.524 --> 00:34:04.880
We don't worry about drawings. Everything's good because the CAD is the master.
00:34:05.593 --> 00:34:09.047
Wrong. Okay, this is a big red flag. Okay, big red flag.
00:34:09.424 --> 00:34:13.264
You do not want to go down that road simply because of what we talked about
00:34:13.264 --> 00:34:17.604
earlier, get as much information on the drawings, not the CAD model, the drawings.
00:34:17.604 --> 00:34:22.474
The drawings are the master key to get your quality product.
00:34:22.474 --> 00:34:30.784
Up to where you need it to be okay so that secondary option or process is often
00:34:30.784 --> 00:34:37.091
skipped okay which is again a dangerous thing to be doing okay we don't know we're doing that,
00:34:37.847 --> 00:34:42.014
we're talking about tolerances we're talking about surface finish we're talking
00:34:42.014 --> 00:34:45.713
about roughness moodness okay we're talking about.
00:34:46.544 --> 00:34:52.110
Friction surfaces all this specific information that often gets forgotten about
00:34:52.279 --> 00:34:58.095
or never gets talked about okay is absolutely critical now if you've got a mature,
00:34:58.710 --> 00:35:02.044
contract manufacturer they would know that because they've been doing it for
00:35:02.044 --> 00:35:05.919
such a long time and these are the automatic questions that come across mr customer
00:35:06.128 --> 00:35:11.924
this is a sliding surface how rough do you want it what's the ra value of that now which is the,
00:35:12.524 --> 00:35:17.482
roughness value okay is it slip is it stick you know whatever the case may be
00:35:17.871 --> 00:35:22.823
these are the questions that separate inexperience to the experienced guys.
00:35:23.078 --> 00:35:28.111
Okay? I like to think that we're in the experienced section there, Adrian, for sure.
00:35:28.506 --> 00:35:31.839
Lead times. Okay? I want to talk to you about lead times. And again,
00:35:31.984 --> 00:35:35.780
I had a conversation with a customer this morning. Okay?
00:35:36.736 --> 00:35:41.691
Pretty cool build time, okay? We're still going through development stage, okay?
00:35:41.751 --> 00:35:46.145
We've got the bill of materials, long list of items on the bill of materials, okay?
00:35:46.563 --> 00:35:51.121
So we have separated out the materials, bill of materials, never going to be
00:35:51.121 --> 00:35:53.691
touched from a design point of view of what we're doing at the moment,
00:35:53.691 --> 00:35:55.272
okay? Let's order those now.
00:35:56.002 --> 00:36:03.141
This is yellow. In other words, some of these may be touched because they're
00:36:03.141 --> 00:36:05.128
in part of the sub-assembly, okay?
00:36:05.401 --> 00:36:07.403
So let's not order it now just in case.
00:36:08.581 --> 00:36:13.961
And definitely this is going to change. However, the conversation was this is
00:36:13.961 --> 00:36:17.055
definitely going to change, this red section over here.
00:36:17.467 --> 00:36:20.862
But one of those items on there has a very long lead item.
00:36:21.397 --> 00:36:26.351
So therefore, we need to put a stake in the ground with respect to this is your
00:36:26.351 --> 00:36:32.137
final date that you can make any design changes before we order it.
00:36:33.486 --> 00:36:40.251
Now, in this particular case, we're going to be doing a small run of,
00:36:40.691 --> 00:36:45.869
it doesn't matter how many, but there's going to be another design iteration later on.
00:36:46.971 --> 00:36:51.558
So we're going to do as much as we can up to a certain deadline,
00:36:51.854 --> 00:36:59.335
at which point we must order in order to get the final product to meet the build,
00:36:59.794 --> 00:37:01.349
criteria or the deadline.
00:37:01.854 --> 00:37:05.819
So again, it's really understanding lead times.
00:37:06.650 --> 00:37:12.795
Off-the-shelf components, special machine components, and really looking at that.
00:37:13.144 --> 00:37:18.246
Now, an immature or inexperienced contract manufacturer will just look at the
00:37:18.246 --> 00:37:25.330
whole bill of materials, okay, and say, oh, one of the chips on here is a long lead isom.
00:37:25.939 --> 00:37:29.616
That is the governing factor. They won't actually break anything down.
00:37:29.616 --> 00:37:31.786
They won't actually do anything with it. They'll just, like,
00:37:31.786 --> 00:37:34.275
lump everything under one basket.
00:37:34.403 --> 00:37:40.961
And again, very, very easy to see those people that are taking notice will offer
00:37:41.135 --> 00:37:44.165
you as a customer to say, right, this is not going to change.
00:37:44.374 --> 00:37:47.323
We've got some long lead items here. We need to act now quickly.
00:37:47.770 --> 00:37:50.545
Okay. And we had another case was like, the price is going up,
00:37:50.812 --> 00:37:52.223
price is going up, price is going up.
00:37:52.756 --> 00:37:57.616
Let's do a risk purchase now. So we lock in the price ready for production because
00:37:57.616 --> 00:37:59.501
the production order is going to go through anyway.
00:37:59.831 --> 00:38:03.072
But if we buy early, we'll save money. And that's what we've done.
00:38:04.669 --> 00:38:10.660
So again, there's thinking smart with respect to mature, immature contract manufacturing.
00:38:11.890 --> 00:38:13.516
So how about that?
00:38:13.818 --> 00:38:18.217
Yeah, that's helpful for the listener to sort of identify the caliber of the
00:38:18.612 --> 00:38:22.026
manufacturer that they're working with, which obviously everybody wants to make
00:38:22.026 --> 00:38:24.626
sure that they are working with the right partner.
00:38:24.626 --> 00:38:30.634
So some good tips there. So if we finish this up and sort of recap then,
00:38:30.953 --> 00:38:33.722
right, based on what we've been talking about today,
00:38:34.394 --> 00:38:43.629
What are the five items that the listener should be knowing as we finish this episode?
00:38:44.358 --> 00:38:47.564
Right. Okay. That's a good way to finish, actually. Let me think.
00:38:47.935 --> 00:38:50.466
Okay. All right. First one. Okay.
00:38:51.882 --> 00:38:56.876
This is all about questions, okay? So I'm going to lead with a question,
00:38:56.876 --> 00:38:58.448
or finish with a question in this case.
00:38:59.214 --> 00:39:07.506
Questions at the start, okay? Smart questions at the start are cheaper than
00:39:07.506 --> 00:39:11.378
solving problems at the end, okay? Let me say that again.
00:39:11.970 --> 00:39:17.032
Smart questions at the start are cheaper than solving problems at the end.
00:39:17.317 --> 00:39:21.258
Now, what that means is explore everything at the front.
00:39:21.976 --> 00:39:25.438
Ask as many questions as you can. It's got to be a two-way conversation.
00:39:26.076 --> 00:39:30.726
Don't just sit there and say, Mr. Contract Manufacturer, tell me everything you need.
00:39:30.877 --> 00:39:34.646
Or as a contract manufacturer, we should not assume that you've given us all
00:39:34.646 --> 00:39:37.338
the information. It has to be sweated out.
00:39:38.456 --> 00:39:41.506
This is a marathon. It's not a short-term sprint. So therefore,
00:39:41.506 --> 00:39:45.562
we've got time to actually get things right up front. So that's the first thing.
00:39:46.658 --> 00:39:54.225
Secondly, a manufacturer who asks a lot of questions up front must be trustworthy.
00:39:55.555 --> 00:39:59.276
Maybe, maybe not. And this is all about the quality.
00:39:59.566 --> 00:40:04.036
I want to go back to the quality of the questions that are asked.
00:40:04.419 --> 00:40:07.699
Yes, like I said earlier, more questions, the better.
00:40:08.204 --> 00:40:12.219
But it's the quality of the questions that really matter. So we're looking at
00:40:12.219 --> 00:40:17.968
the quantity and the quality of the questions that are coming across.
00:40:18.264 --> 00:40:22.345
And that means you're building a process around the art, not just,
00:40:22.658 --> 00:40:24.388
oh, we've got this product here.
00:40:24.783 --> 00:40:28.149
Everything's going to be okay. Everything needs to be ABS. Everything's got
00:40:28.149 --> 00:40:29.212
the standard tolerance.
00:40:29.421 --> 00:40:33.218
No, no, no, no. Okay, break it down into the granular level.
00:40:33.386 --> 00:40:35.267
Okay, that's absolutely important.
00:40:36.483 --> 00:40:44.324
I want to talk about now is a third one, Adrian, is good buyers accelerate the process. Okay?
00:40:45.357 --> 00:40:52.242
What that means is it's all about getting things correct, getting things in order.
00:40:52.439 --> 00:40:56.269
I want to go back to the drawings a minute. Okay, so we've got the CAD model.
00:40:56.269 --> 00:41:00.804
The CAD model is the master, okay, because that is the product itself.
00:41:01.170 --> 00:41:03.852
But it's getting everything on the detail.
00:41:04.311 --> 00:41:08.335
That detail speeds things up, right? Why?
00:41:08.817 --> 00:41:12.457
Because you get the right quality of part at the end, okay?
00:41:12.846 --> 00:41:19.231
So it's questions up front, quality questions being asked and written down, okay?
00:41:19.626 --> 00:41:24.649
Then we can go fast because we took our time to sweat the questions at the front
00:41:24.649 --> 00:41:28.449
end and we got all of the details where we need them in order to get in the
00:41:28.449 --> 00:41:29.756
right part at the end of the day.
00:41:30.384 --> 00:41:32.368
Okay? So you can see there's a process.
00:41:33.651 --> 00:41:34.772
The next one is,
00:41:35.807 --> 00:41:41.423
Silence is a deadly killer. We talked about this before, the assumption.
00:41:41.603 --> 00:41:45.778
The assumption at the beginning gets baked in because it was never talked about
00:41:45.778 --> 00:41:47.848
and it was always, that's what
00:41:47.848 --> 00:41:51.060
we assumed you wanted, because you didn't tell us any of you otherwise.
00:41:52.169 --> 00:41:55.718
I've seen this so many, I can't tell you how many times I've seen this,
00:41:55.778 --> 00:41:58.292
so many times, in a bad way.
00:41:59.192 --> 00:42:03.557
It never, never turns out the assumption is the best thing we've ever done. Never.
00:42:04.258 --> 00:42:09.858
It never, never happens. So silence is a deadly killer, and it's a very, very painful one, okay?
00:42:10.158 --> 00:42:16.348
So if the contract manufacturer is not asking questions, that's a red flag, okay?
00:42:16.603 --> 00:42:22.292
But you, as a buyer, you should also ask questions with respect to,
00:42:22.716 --> 00:42:25.160
have you got enough information? What about this? What about that?
00:42:25.998 --> 00:42:31.698
I don't know anything about materials. Can you explain about what material it is? Is it plastic?
00:42:32.098 --> 00:42:34.765
I don't know anything about plastics. Please explain that to me.
00:42:34.969 --> 00:42:38.918
Okay, you as a buyer should be able to ask that with no problems whatsoever
00:42:38.918 --> 00:42:41.523
because the contract manufacturer has no problems whatsoever.
00:42:41.946 --> 00:42:45.398
We can come back and give you as much information as possible so everything
00:42:45.398 --> 00:42:49.719
is clear because we'll be asking the right questions.
00:42:50.706 --> 00:42:53.317
So that is basically where we are.
00:42:55.190 --> 00:43:00.478
And basically, how many was that? Was it four? Yep, that's four. Right.
00:43:01.146 --> 00:43:06.179
Evaluating your manufacturer's knowledge or depth, okay? And this is all about
00:43:06.318 --> 00:43:08.320
screening the people you're working with.
00:43:09.155 --> 00:43:15.530
And I think I've covered this already. It's not the quantity and it's not the
00:43:15.530 --> 00:43:17.879
quality of questions. It's both.
00:43:18.274 --> 00:43:24.073
It's the number of questions and the quality behind the questions that get asked, okay?
00:43:24.421 --> 00:43:28.173
That is, do these guys know what they're doing or don't they?
00:43:28.392 --> 00:43:30.319
Okay. That's an easy one. Okay.
00:43:30.946 --> 00:43:36.598
Making sure that they are not off-handed. Okay.
00:43:37.312 --> 00:43:41.190
A good contract manufacturer should be able to provide as much information as
00:43:41.190 --> 00:43:45.532
possible to make you, the customer, the buyer, very comfortable.
00:43:46.130 --> 00:43:51.568
Okay. So if you've got a hostile or potentially a contract manufacturer that,
00:43:52.219 --> 00:43:57.340
is, well, know the answer to that, then that's again, not a red flag.
00:43:58.160 --> 00:43:59.587
So you are.
00:44:00.626 --> 00:44:04.341
Interviewing, let's say, or screening your contract manufacturer.
00:44:04.655 --> 00:44:08.658
This is super important. You need to make sure that you are working with the
00:44:08.658 --> 00:44:13.693
right contract manufacturer, not just any old contract manufacturer from Alibaba or whatever.
00:44:14.052 --> 00:44:18.706
You need to go through your due diligence and through the series of questions.
00:44:19.389 --> 00:44:22.878
Okay, this is what we've been talking about for the last, I want to say,
00:44:22.878 --> 00:44:24.268
20 minutes, but I know it's more than that.
00:44:25.848 --> 00:44:29.693
It's absolute paramount that you ask the right questions.
00:44:29.995 --> 00:44:36.490
The questions that are being asked by the contract manufacturer are good quality,
00:44:36.948 --> 00:44:42.533
okay, and the right quantity. Now, more is sometimes better if it's got good quality.
00:44:42.795 --> 00:44:47.188
If they're asking nonsense questions, right, you should be able to pick this up by now.
00:44:47.519 --> 00:44:51.248
So again, it's screening or interviewing your contract manufacturer.
00:44:51.248 --> 00:44:54.601
So looking at all of those five, putting all of those five together,
00:44:54.926 --> 00:45:01.908
you should be able going to say, okay, now I understand that asking a stupid
00:45:01.908 --> 00:45:05.602
question is the right question to ask, okay?
00:45:06.066 --> 00:45:12.318
So don't be shy. Always, always, always ask questions, particularly if you don't
00:45:12.318 --> 00:45:15.563
understand something, okay? If you don't understand something,
00:45:15.941 --> 00:45:19.017
ask your contract manufacturer, can you explain that to me?
00:45:20.228 --> 00:45:23.418
Can you provide more information? Do you have a presentation?
00:45:23.418 --> 00:45:25.603
Do you have a PDF? Whatever the case may be.
00:45:25.731 --> 00:45:30.908
Right please please please ask okay and expect your contract manufacturer to
00:45:30.908 --> 00:45:36.517
ask good quality in-depth questions which we've covered today.
00:45:37.254 --> 00:45:42.508
Yeah so the so the the message kind of is like if you're in that situation and
00:45:42.508 --> 00:45:46.165
you get hit with this barrage of questions or what seems like a
00:45:47.186 --> 00:45:50.059
It's not a bad thing. It's not an onerous thing necessarily.
00:45:51.039 --> 00:45:56.029
It's actually a really, really important element of risk reduction for your
00:45:56.029 --> 00:45:57.849
project if it's done properly.
00:45:58.128 --> 00:46:01.721
And it does work both ways because as you've mentioned, as the customer,
00:46:02.075 --> 00:46:04.397
there are some questions that you should be asking too.
00:46:04.774 --> 00:46:08.442
And it's a good way to assess the competency of who you're working with,
00:46:08.628 --> 00:46:10.822
which is of course, always good.
00:46:11.072 --> 00:46:15.419
So those are some takeaways from the episode, really helpful.
00:46:15.419 --> 00:46:22.719
And hopefully now everybody's prepared to face but also ask some really useful
00:46:22.719 --> 00:46:26.365
questions when they are embarking on that manufacturing project.
00:46:26.975 --> 00:46:29.564
Paul, I will let you go. Thank you for joining us.
00:46:30.261 --> 00:46:32.459
That was a good one. Thank you. I look forward to the next one.
00:46:32.831 --> 00:46:37.211
That's it. Not too long, I'm sure, before we have another podcast recording.
00:46:37.553 --> 00:46:43.164
And to the listeners, of course, thanks for tuning in as ever and we will be back next week.
00:46:44.813 --> 00:46:48.481
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