#46- Mark Adams

WEBVTT
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And we're on. We're on. So let's just get right
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to it. Mr. Mark, how are you doing? I'm very
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well, thank you. Thank you for inviting me to
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join you today. I appreciate you for coming.
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How's everything going? How's family? How's life
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in general? Yeah, all good. Muddling along as
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usual. No tragedies to report. So, no, we're
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all good. Yeah, that's good. Same on this side.
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Good. Glad to hear it. Excellent. So, I want
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to start from the very, very beginning, right?
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Okay. So, you were born in Manchester. Firstly,
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do you remember that? Like, how clearly do you
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remember that? I have very... Very thin memories
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of being born and living in England because my
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parents left to come to South Africa when I was
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about four years old. So I have very few memories.
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I've got a few distinct memories, but nothing
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terribly coherent. But you came here by boat,
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right? When you were four or five, you said four
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or five? Yeah, that's right. My parents emigrated
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out here in 1967. I was four years old. Yeah,
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and then traveling by boat was kind of a normal
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way to travel, you know, between continents.
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That's a shame, by the way. Yeah. How big were
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these boats? I would say kind of like a medium
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-sized passenger liner. They used to carry mail
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as well, because this was kind of before air
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travel took over completely with shifting mail
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around countries. A lot of freight, a lot of
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cargo, a lot of mail was also transported by
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sea. So I'm guessing there were probably, again,
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I'm sort of going on very, very early memories,
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but there were probably like about a couple of
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hundred passengers on board. Do you have any
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idea why your parents decided to leave? Well,
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they'd actually been living in South Africa before.
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After the Second World War, my parents kind of,
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they skipped around between England and South
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Africa a couple of times. I think shortly after
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the war, they moved here because, you know, the
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economic situation in the UK was... The economy
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was pretty depressed after the war. And I think
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they came here for the first time in 1948. They
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moved to KwaZulu -Natal, to a town called Hawick.
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They spent a few years there because there were
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employment opportunities out here that weren't
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really available in England. And my dad was working
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for a company that supplied equipment to mining
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companies. And obviously there's a lot of mining
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in South Africa. So, you know, he brought the
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family out here. They stayed for a few years.
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They went back again after a while. Then after
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a few years back in England, they came out this
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way again, except that time they went to Rhodesia,
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which is now Zimbabwe. They stayed there for
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a few years. They went back to England. They
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seem to have trouble sort of, you know, like
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deciding exactly where to settle. Until 1967,
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that's when they came out and I was around. And
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that was, you know, we finally settled here at
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that point. So you didn't really go through anything
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because you were so young. You probably didn't
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even realize what was going on. You were just
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going somewhere with your parents. Yeah, yeah,
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no, absolutely, exactly. It's like, oh, you know,
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we're going on a boat. Oh, okay, let's go on
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a boat. Did you, like, how many siblings did
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you have at that time? I'm the youngest of four.
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My eldest sister is 17 years older than I am,
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so she was born shortly after the war, actually.
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And, yeah, I was born in 62. So her experience
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must have been way different from yours because
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she probably had friends. Yeah, yeah. Well, she
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was 17 when we left England for the last time.
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So she'd been through school and had friends.
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I imagine it was a big experience for her, big
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upheaval. But it wasn't the first time because,
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as I say, they'd sort of come out a few times,
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two or three times before settling here eventually.
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Oh, so she was used to traveling already. Yeah,
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yeah, I think so. I've never actually really
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spoken to her about that. Now you mention it.
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Now you have something to ask her about. Yeah,
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I guess so. Thank you for that. Yeah, yeah. And
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also, an important question, you know, the fans
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want to know, are you a Man City fan or a Manchester
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United fan? I was a United fan. I say was because
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I kind of followed football and I followed United
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until Alex Ferguson left and David Moyes took
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over the team and completely destroyed it, in
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which case I just divorced myself from Manchester
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United and I decided I was never going to watch
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football again. It was very disappointing. And
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I've kind of stuck to that. You know, I'm not
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mad at it. If you left Man United and decided
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to never watch it again instead of going to another
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team, we can live with that. Yeah, we respect
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that. You're good with that. You didn't hop on
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to the next team. That's respectable. Well, good.
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I'm glad we're not going to have a fight about
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that. Okay, so moving on to religion. Yeah. Yeah,
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we noticed that you have a pretty complicated
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relationship, you know, with religion and everything.
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Yeah, that's one way of putting it, yes. Yeah,
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because we noticed that you were raised as a
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Catholic as a teenager. That's right, yeah. I
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mean, my mother was Irish, so she was a staunch
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Catholic. My father was agnostic. And so... But
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obviously, I think at some point they'd had a
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conversation between themselves and they'd agreed
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that my mother was going to raise us all as Catholics,
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my siblings and I, and that he was just going
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to keep out of things. And so, yeah, I was raised
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Catholic. I mean, I was baptized as a baby and
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taken to church every week and went to a Catholic
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primary school and all that kind of stuff. So
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I grew up very much in the faith. But, you know,
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as you say, it was a complicated relationship.
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Why did your dad allow that even though he was
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agnostic? Was it because he saw like the values
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it instilled in her and he thought that would
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be beneficial to y 'all? You know, again, I don't
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know if I can give you a good answer to that
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question because my parents were, they were quite
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conservative people socially. And one of the
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things that they taught us as kids is that, you
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know, in polite society, there are three things
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you don't talk about. That's religion, politics,
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and sex. You just don't talk about those things.
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And so I think in order maybe just to avoid conflict
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with my mother, I think he just decided that,
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you know, that he'd let it go. But this is just
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my opinion. This is just my impression. I tried
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when I was a kid, I actually tried to raise questions
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because I had questions. But when I try and raise
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questions with my folks about this, they were
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quite uncomfortable about talking about it. And
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so that was part of the complication actually
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growing up in the faith was not being able to
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actually explore it with them. So it was quite
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confusing. But, you know, because I'm trying
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to be a good child, you know, they said, you
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know, we don't talk about this stuff. So we didn't
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talk about it. Wow. So are any of your siblings
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still religious? Yeah, I think my sisters are.
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I think they're kind of – I don't think they're
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like – seriously, you know, rabid right -wing,
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you know, fundamentalist Christians, I think
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they've kind of, you know, I think Catholicism
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for them is more just kind of a philosophy. I
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think, as it is, I think with a lot of Catholics,
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it's kind of, you know, it's what you do on Sunday.
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And then, you know, from Monday to Saturday,
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you just get on with your life. But I think they
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still adhere to the traditions. They go to church
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and they celebrate Easter and Christmas in the
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traditional Catholic way and all that kind of
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stuff. But I don't know how deep their conviction
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is, to be honest. We also saw that you almost
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became a priest. How close were you really? Did
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you have an outfit? Yeah, I thought about that,
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actually. I think I was in early high school
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and, you know, my dad, one day we were out together
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because my dad used to do the shopping on Saturday
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mornings. You know, my mom would stay at home
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and my dad would go and do the grocery shopping
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on Saturday mornings. And I'd often go with him
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just because it was, you know, something to do
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on a Saturday. And he asked me, it was, you know,
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early high school, and he asked me the one day,
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he said, so, you know, what do you think you're
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going to do when you leave school? And I hadn't
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really thought about it, but I was quite a staunch
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Catholic myself at that point. And I was sort
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of involved in the arts, well, interested in
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the arts, I should say. And so I was kind of
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saying, oh, well, I think I'll either become
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an artist or a priest, because those are the
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two things that sort of just popped into my mind.
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I, but yeah, I'm not sure, you know, looking
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back now, I'm not sure how serious I was about
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that. But it seemed to be one of the few options
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that seemed available to me at the time. But
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yeah, that didn't really last. I think I might
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have considered, you know, later becoming, joining
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the priesthood if I had sort of maintained a
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level of belief in conviction. But that didn't
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happen. Sorry, yeah. What made you lose that
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conviction and belief? Yeah, that's a complicated
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question. Well, no, it's a simple question. It's
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a complicated answer. I don't think there was
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any one thing. I think it was just a combination
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of things. You know, growing up in this country,
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in the 70s, 80s, you know, when I was sort of
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becoming more socially aware. I mean, you know,
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earlier you talked about, you know, when I arrived
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on the boat, I was a five -year -old. I didn't
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really have any idea of what we were doing. But
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as I was growing up in this country, I began
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to sense the injustice of what was happening
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in this country, politically and socially. And
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it kind of just didn't really square with...
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what I was being taught, you know, at church,
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you know, and at school. As I say, going to a
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Catholic school, obviously religion is very much
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interwoven with that. And, you know, we're taught,
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you know, by the church that, you know, we're
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all God's children and he loves us all and we're
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all equal in the eyes of God, you know. And so
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that's one perception that's presented to us.
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And then I started, you know, just looking around
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and as I'm growing up, I'm becoming more and
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more aware. of the social injustices that are
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being perpetrated on black South Africans by
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the apartheid government. And I just thought,
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this doesn't make sense. You know, there's a
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big contradiction here that I have to deal with.
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So it was partly that. Also, you know, I was
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17 years old when my father passed away. And
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for some reason, my mother gave him a Catholic
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funeral, which seemed to me a very odd thing
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to do. And so, you know, we go to this funeral
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service and there's this priest who I've never
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met before, who we don't know at all because
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the funeral wasn't even at our regular church.
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It was at some other. some other church that
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we'd never been to. And this priest gets up and
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starts talking about my dad as if they were like
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old friends. And that sort of didn't sit well
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with me. I thought, you know, I'm looking at
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this guy and he's basically just lying to us
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all. And I didn't really feel very comfortable
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with that. And so my faith in the church started
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to erode at that point. I didn't really start
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losing my God belief at that point, but I certainly
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started losing faith in the institution. And
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so, yeah, I kind of slowly withdrew from being
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a practicing Catholic. Okay, go ahead. No, no,
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please carry on. Okay, so while you were in church
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and seeing these injustices, Was religion in
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the church ever used to kind of justify what
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was going on outside? Not to my knowledge. It
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just seemed to be a double standard. It just
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seemed to be that, you know, like the... The
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church is espousing one position, but which just
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didn't match with the reality that I was experiencing.
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I think that was the problem that I was really
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battling with. And I found it very confusing.
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I really did. I also found it very confusing
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that there's this idea that, you know, there's
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this God who loves us, you know, but if we're
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bad, you know, he's going to punish us forever,
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which seemed to me a little bit harsh. And it
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didn't seem to square with the idea of forgiveness.
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It was like, well, you know, if I've done something
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wrong, you know, like point it out and, you know,
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let's fix it and let's move on. The idea that
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you're going to burn in hell forever, you know,
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for making a mistake. Yeah, that is insane. Well,
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I thought so. Because also as a kid, if you're
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at church and you're being told, like, we are
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equal. uh in his eyes and then you go outside
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into reality and you see a person being told
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like you can't you can't come here stay stay
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over there it's a little it's like no right yeah
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yeah no exactly i mean i never saw anyone like
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visibly telling someone no they couldn't come
00:16:28.429 --> 00:16:30.769
into the church you know but but when we went
00:16:30.769 --> 00:16:32.809
to church it was always just white people you
00:16:32.809 --> 00:16:36.870
know um and uh there just didn't seem to be any
00:16:36.870 --> 00:16:43.370
any concern about that So, yeah, I know, very
00:16:43.370 --> 00:16:48.769
strange times. Very confusing, as I say. Yeah.
00:16:48.850 --> 00:16:51.230
So when you came to South Africa, how long did
00:16:51.230 --> 00:16:54.669
you realize that, you know, like how long did
00:16:54.669 --> 00:16:56.529
it take you to realize that things were a little
00:16:56.529 --> 00:17:02.370
different? I think it's just something that slowly
00:17:02.370 --> 00:17:05.190
built up, you know, from the moment we arrived.
00:17:06.769 --> 00:17:09.880
Because, you know, coming from England, which
00:17:09.880 --> 00:17:13.019
at that time was certainly in my experience was
00:17:13.019 --> 00:17:15.900
a more equal society. You know, I then suddenly
00:17:15.900 --> 00:17:20.339
come into this society, which wasn't immediately
00:17:20.339 --> 00:17:23.859
obvious to me that it was unequal or less equal.
00:17:24.359 --> 00:17:28.579
But, you know, it's just that, for example, like
00:17:28.579 --> 00:17:32.519
we had a, you know, my parents were nice middle
00:17:32.519 --> 00:17:37.619
class people. And so we had a domestic worker.
00:17:38.119 --> 00:17:40.339
And she'd arrive in the morning and she'd, you
00:17:40.339 --> 00:17:42.559
know, work in the house and whatever. And a very
00:17:42.559 --> 00:17:45.019
nice lady by the name of Grace. I remember her
00:17:45.019 --> 00:17:49.119
quite well, actually. And, you know, she'd work
00:17:49.119 --> 00:17:51.599
in the house and then she'd go home at night
00:17:51.599 --> 00:17:56.960
and whatever in the afternoon. And, you know,
00:17:57.019 --> 00:18:00.200
I mean, I think I said to my parents, like, one
00:18:00.200 --> 00:18:01.539
day when I was still quite young, it's like,
00:18:01.640 --> 00:18:04.980
where does Grace live? And my parents were like,
00:18:05.039 --> 00:18:08.670
oh, we don't know. I think, well, okay, well,
00:18:08.789 --> 00:18:14.069
how come we never see her? She's always coming
00:18:14.069 --> 00:18:17.269
to visit us, but why don't we visit her? Because,
00:18:17.369 --> 00:18:19.410
I mean, I thought this was a social interaction.
00:18:20.150 --> 00:18:23.990
And I got some, you know, evasive answer about
00:18:23.990 --> 00:18:26.650
that. Again, as I said, you know, my parents
00:18:26.650 --> 00:18:28.430
were always reluctant to talk about this kind
00:18:28.430 --> 00:18:31.930
of stuff. And then I started just looking around
00:18:31.930 --> 00:18:35.190
and noticing that, you know, there were a lot
00:18:35.190 --> 00:18:38.430
of... Whenever I saw black people in society,
00:18:38.869 --> 00:18:45.190
they were working, but there was no social interaction,
00:18:45.390 --> 00:18:51.009
which I found peculiar. And so that's when I
00:18:51.009 --> 00:18:52.809
think I started to get an inkling that something
00:18:52.809 --> 00:18:56.750
was different. But then sort of in my, you know,
00:18:56.769 --> 00:18:59.910
going into my early teens, as I became a little
00:18:59.910 --> 00:19:04.119
bit more socially and politically aware. I began
00:19:04.119 --> 00:19:07.799
to learn about apartheid and things like that.
00:19:08.519 --> 00:19:12.559
And I started to, you know, then sort of start
00:19:12.559 --> 00:19:16.380
to feel the injustice of it. I mean, again, I
00:19:16.380 --> 00:19:18.839
remember as a kid like it, I think I was about,
00:19:18.900 --> 00:19:21.640
I must have been about 10 years old. I was out
00:19:21.640 --> 00:19:25.279
again on a Saturday morning with my father and
00:19:25.279 --> 00:19:28.079
we're going around the shops doing what we do.
00:19:28.670 --> 00:19:32.710
And I remember that there was a couple of bus
00:19:32.710 --> 00:19:39.289
shelters on the street. And they were clearly
00:19:39.289 --> 00:19:42.930
signed, you know, like whites only and non -whites.
00:19:43.269 --> 00:19:46.210
They were very clearly signed as being two separate
00:19:46.210 --> 00:19:48.650
bus shelters right next to each other. And the
00:19:48.650 --> 00:19:52.269
whites only bus shelter was covered. You know,
00:19:52.309 --> 00:19:55.769
this was a bench and it had its nice cover. So,
00:19:55.910 --> 00:19:57.849
you know, if it was, so you didn't sit in the
00:19:57.849 --> 00:20:00.069
hot sun, you had shade. If it was raining, you
00:20:00.069 --> 00:20:02.710
kept dry. And then, you know, the non -whites
00:20:02.710 --> 00:20:05.470
bus shelter was just a bench. And I remember
00:20:05.470 --> 00:20:07.470
saying to my dad, like, you know, like, what's
00:20:07.470 --> 00:20:10.230
this about? What's going on here? And again,
00:20:10.349 --> 00:20:13.369
just not really getting an answer, kind of getting,
00:20:13.410 --> 00:20:16.269
well, that's just how things are, kind of reply.
00:20:18.029 --> 00:20:21.609
And I remember, you know, it's like. When he
00:20:21.609 --> 00:20:25.190
used to go to the bottle store, and there would
00:20:25.190 --> 00:20:27.130
be like the white's bottle store and there'd
00:20:27.130 --> 00:20:29.789
be the black person's bottle store. And the white
00:20:29.789 --> 00:20:32.930
person's bottle store was this shop with a window
00:20:32.930 --> 00:20:37.809
and a display and, you know, like a normal shop,
00:20:37.950 --> 00:20:40.650
you know, with a shop window and, you know, all
00:20:40.650 --> 00:20:42.529
of that sort of stuff. They couldn't even drink
00:20:42.529 --> 00:20:48.009
together. No, no. No, it was illegal. It was
00:20:48.009 --> 00:20:54.710
illegal? Yeah, it was against the law. It was
00:20:54.710 --> 00:20:57.529
this whole policy of separate development. There
00:20:57.529 --> 00:21:00.589
was something called the Immorality Act, and
00:21:00.589 --> 00:21:05.490
black and white folks weren't allowed to socialize.
00:21:06.049 --> 00:21:10.369
In the case of if you were buying alcohol, you
00:21:10.369 --> 00:21:13.589
couldn't even buy alcohol in the same shop. So
00:21:13.589 --> 00:21:15.130
I remember my dad going off to the bottle store
00:21:15.130 --> 00:21:16.630
one morning and walking into the shop, and I
00:21:16.630 --> 00:21:18.750
was walking behind him. But then I noticed like
00:21:18.750 --> 00:21:21.250
right next door is just like this, instead of
00:21:21.250 --> 00:21:23.670
a window, there's this brick wall and there's
00:21:23.670 --> 00:21:27.170
just a door. And there's a sign on the side saying,
00:21:27.269 --> 00:21:30.150
you know, bottle store non -whites. And that's
00:21:30.150 --> 00:21:33.329
it. So I kind of changed direction and I wandered
00:21:33.329 --> 00:21:35.329
off and I walked into this because I wanted to
00:21:35.329 --> 00:21:38.190
see what was going on. I was curious. And so
00:21:38.190 --> 00:21:42.710
I walk into this doorway and instead of, you
00:21:42.710 --> 00:21:46.480
know, a traditional shop. as we're so familiar
00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:51.259
with nowadays. There's just a counter which has
00:21:51.259 --> 00:21:53.900
bars in front of it, and there are just like
00:21:53.900 --> 00:21:56.920
boxes of black labels stacked to the ceiling.
00:21:57.259 --> 00:22:02.779
That's it. And as I walk in, the guy behind the
00:22:02.779 --> 00:22:07.680
counter suddenly looked terrified. I had no idea
00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:11.769
why. That's because you're breaking the law.
00:22:12.009 --> 00:22:14.130
You're going to get in much trouble. Yeah, by
00:22:14.130 --> 00:22:16.269
walking in there, I was breaking two laws. First
00:22:16.269 --> 00:22:19.029
of all, I was underage because you're not supposed
00:22:19.029 --> 00:22:21.230
to walk into these places. If you're under 18,
00:22:21.410 --> 00:22:24.430
you can't walk in unaccompanied, which I wasn't
00:22:24.430 --> 00:22:27.829
aware of. But also, yeah, I'm not supposed to
00:22:27.829 --> 00:22:31.069
be there. And the thing is that if the police
00:22:31.069 --> 00:22:33.509
had bussed me walking in there, I wouldn't have
00:22:33.509 --> 00:22:35.410
been in trouble. The shopkeeper would have been
00:22:35.410 --> 00:22:38.160
in trouble. He would have been arrested. Which
00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:42.079
is, again, bizarre, you know. But anyway, I think
00:22:42.079 --> 00:22:44.259
at this point my dad had realized that I wasn't
00:22:44.259 --> 00:22:46.099
behind him anymore and he'd come looking for
00:22:46.099 --> 00:22:49.460
me. And, you know, he walked in and found me
00:22:49.460 --> 00:22:51.299
and, like, pulled me out of this. Oh, I'm so
00:22:51.299 --> 00:22:53.940
sorry. I'm so sorry. And I'm thinking, like,
00:22:53.960 --> 00:22:57.640
what the hell is going on here? What's this about?
00:23:00.359 --> 00:23:03.960
But, yeah, again, I never really got a coherent
00:23:03.960 --> 00:23:06.579
explanation. I only really figured it out, like,
00:23:06.599 --> 00:23:10.059
later on myself, as I became more politically
00:23:10.059 --> 00:23:16.420
aware. Did you ever… Strange times. Absolutely.
00:23:16.460 --> 00:23:19.180
Did you ever find, like, a group of people who
00:23:19.180 --> 00:23:22.240
you could, like, talk to that about? Like, you
00:23:22.240 --> 00:23:25.720
know, maybe fellow kids your age? No, I never
00:23:25.720 --> 00:23:29.359
did. Because… Oh, they were just okay with it.
00:23:29.640 --> 00:23:31.960
They're like, yeah, it's amazing. Yeah, yeah.
00:23:32.039 --> 00:23:36.460
I think so. I think so, which is also part of
00:23:36.460 --> 00:23:40.079
the tragedy is that, you know, even to this day,
00:23:40.099 --> 00:23:42.079
actually, I mean, if I think about a lot of the
00:23:42.079 --> 00:23:46.700
people I know right now, you know, my age, so
00:23:46.700 --> 00:23:48.900
many of them are, I'm talking about white folks
00:23:48.900 --> 00:23:51.759
now, so many of them are still ignorant about
00:23:51.759 --> 00:23:55.059
black culture. They don't seem, and they don't
00:23:55.059 --> 00:23:57.839
really seem that curious about learning about
00:23:57.839 --> 00:24:00.450
black culture. It's kind of like, well, you know,
00:24:00.470 --> 00:24:02.269
we're doing our thing, other people are doing
00:24:02.269 --> 00:24:05.130
their thing. And there just seems to be a lack
00:24:05.130 --> 00:24:09.829
of interest in bridging that gap, which I find
00:24:09.829 --> 00:24:14.630
very depressing. But certainly, you know, at
00:24:14.630 --> 00:24:19.990
that age, you know, I mean, my peer group, you
00:24:19.990 --> 00:24:22.890
know, young teenagers, whatever, seemed completely
00:24:22.890 --> 00:24:26.579
oblivious to any of this kind of stuff. And in
00:24:26.579 --> 00:24:29.759
some cases, actually, some of my friends' parents,
00:24:29.880 --> 00:24:32.180
I think, were quite racist. And I think even
00:24:32.180 --> 00:24:36.119
some of the people I knew at that time of my
00:24:36.119 --> 00:24:39.180
age had kind of adopted their parents' racism
00:24:39.180 --> 00:24:44.579
as well. And it didn't help that I was, I mean,
00:24:44.599 --> 00:24:46.400
as a child, I was very shy, so I didn't even
00:24:46.400 --> 00:24:50.000
have many friends. So I didn't really have anyone
00:24:50.000 --> 00:24:52.700
to talk to about this stuff. I was kind of figuring
00:24:52.700 --> 00:24:57.059
it out myself as I went along. So was it hard
00:24:57.059 --> 00:25:01.460
to figure it out, to completely understand it?
00:25:01.460 --> 00:25:08.859
Was that difficult? It wasn't impossible, but
00:25:08.859 --> 00:25:13.140
it was quite tricky. But there were certain signs
00:25:13.140 --> 00:25:15.440
that were there if you were looking for them.
00:25:16.460 --> 00:25:21.380
If I think about the media at the time, I think
00:25:21.380 --> 00:25:28.140
at the time when I was in high school, Yeah,
00:25:28.140 --> 00:25:32.059
1970s, mid to late 70s. I think we had five newspapers.
00:25:34.519 --> 00:25:38.140
There were five white newspapers. There were
00:25:38.140 --> 00:25:41.640
two Afrikaans papers. There was Die Bildt and
00:25:41.640 --> 00:25:45.660
Die Transfahler. We had The Star. We had The
00:25:45.660 --> 00:25:50.740
Sunday Times. And they were all kind of, I think
00:25:50.740 --> 00:25:53.059
they were all owned by the same company. if I
00:25:53.059 --> 00:25:56.880
remember rightly. That is insane. I could be
00:25:56.880 --> 00:25:59.019
wrong about that, so don't quote me on that,
00:25:59.059 --> 00:26:04.099
but I think that's true. And I think they were
00:26:04.099 --> 00:26:06.440
also government subsidized, so they were kind
00:26:06.440 --> 00:26:09.819
of the apartheid government's mouthpiece. They
00:26:09.819 --> 00:26:13.400
were really just propaganda machines. Yes, to
00:26:13.400 --> 00:26:17.000
varying degrees. Some were more propagandist
00:26:17.000 --> 00:26:19.599
than others. I think the Star tried to put on
00:26:19.599 --> 00:26:23.079
a... an air of being more centrist, but it was
00:26:23.079 --> 00:26:27.059
still quite propagandist. But then there was
00:26:27.059 --> 00:26:29.500
a paper called the Rand Daily Mail, which was
00:26:29.500 --> 00:26:31.920
an independent, and that was more left -wing.
00:26:32.779 --> 00:26:35.480
And it was very different from the other newspapers.
00:26:35.900 --> 00:26:38.400
And so at this age, you know, I'm in school,
00:26:38.460 --> 00:26:40.559
I'm starting to read the newspapers, and I'm
00:26:40.559 --> 00:26:42.759
starting to actually feel the differences there,
00:26:42.819 --> 00:26:46.559
feel the trends, and start to understand that
00:26:46.559 --> 00:26:50.799
there's a bias in the media. And then, of course,
00:26:50.880 --> 00:26:54.900
you know, all the, I mean, obviously the papers
00:26:54.900 --> 00:27:00.380
like the Soweto existed, but you never saw them
00:27:00.380 --> 00:27:03.000
in the shops. You know, they weren't being sold
00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:06.539
on our street corners, you know, in the white
00:27:06.539 --> 00:27:08.380
suburbs. You know, you couldn't buy a copy of
00:27:08.380 --> 00:27:14.680
the Soweto if you wanted it. And then... Of course,
00:27:14.680 --> 00:27:19.140
you know, all the radio outlets, the radio stations
00:27:19.140 --> 00:27:24.440
were SABC, which was an arm of the government.
00:27:24.559 --> 00:27:30.400
And so that media was, again, very biased. And
00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:34.279
then, of course, when we got TV in 1976, that
00:27:34.279 --> 00:27:39.400
was also the news broadcasts on SABC television
00:27:39.400 --> 00:27:42.839
in the early days were also very much... a propaganda
00:27:42.839 --> 00:27:51.180
arm of the nationalist party. And so those were
00:27:51.180 --> 00:27:54.220
the kind of – I learned to kind of read between
00:27:54.220 --> 00:27:57.579
the lines. And then, of course, later we got
00:27:57.579 --> 00:27:59.680
the Citizen newspaper as well. That popped up
00:27:59.680 --> 00:28:03.220
a little bit later. But that was also – I wouldn't
00:28:03.220 --> 00:28:05.460
say it was right -wing, but it certainly wasn't
00:28:05.460 --> 00:28:08.759
left -wing. The Rand Daily Mail was kind of the
00:28:08.759 --> 00:28:14.109
outlier newspaper. And so I was kind of reading
00:28:14.109 --> 00:28:17.630
all of these newspapers and building a picture
00:28:17.630 --> 00:28:19.910
by reading between the lines from all of these
00:28:19.910 --> 00:28:25.869
publications. Yeah. Okay. So when you left South
00:28:25.869 --> 00:28:28.289
Africa, was it emotional for you or did you feel
00:28:28.289 --> 00:28:33.430
like it was time for a fresh start? When I left?
00:28:34.450 --> 00:28:37.630
Well, I was actually exiled. I was thrown out.
00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:44.160
What happened was that... They didn't want you
00:28:44.160 --> 00:28:50.279
anymore. Yeah, it wasn't a choice. I wasn't given
00:28:50.279 --> 00:28:55.000
an option. So you refused to join the army. That's
00:28:55.000 --> 00:28:57.099
right. Yeah, that's what happened. Well, no.
00:28:58.539 --> 00:29:01.579
And that's essentially what it was. But the way
00:29:01.579 --> 00:29:03.279
that it was structured and the way that it was
00:29:03.279 --> 00:29:05.880
couched and the way that it was spun to the public
00:29:05.880 --> 00:29:08.519
was that I wasn't being forced to join the military.
00:29:08.660 --> 00:29:10.759
I was being forced to become a South African
00:29:10.759 --> 00:29:13.259
citizen. Because all of this time, all the time
00:29:13.259 --> 00:29:14.960
growing up in this country, I had maintained
00:29:14.960 --> 00:29:18.960
my British citizenship. So I still had a UK passport.
00:29:21.440 --> 00:29:24.599
But, you know, what happened was when we were
00:29:24.599 --> 00:29:28.720
at school, I think it was in grade 8. I think
00:29:28.720 --> 00:29:34.259
it was. No, sorry, grade 10. We had to fill out
00:29:34.259 --> 00:29:41.319
a form which was given to us by the – it came
00:29:41.319 --> 00:29:44.779
via the Home Affairs. But it was really about
00:29:44.779 --> 00:29:47.019
registration for national service. Everyone was
00:29:47.019 --> 00:29:49.599
– all white males were required to register for
00:29:49.599 --> 00:29:52.500
national service. And what would typically happen
00:29:52.500 --> 00:29:57.049
– Sorry, yes? No, you can go on. Well, so what
00:29:57.049 --> 00:29:59.670
would typically happen would be that, you know,
00:29:59.670 --> 00:30:03.130
once we all matriculated, you'd then receive
00:30:03.130 --> 00:30:06.309
your call -up to go into the military, which
00:30:06.309 --> 00:30:08.569
was at that stage two years of military service
00:30:08.569 --> 00:30:12.869
that was mandatory. And because by then, of course,
00:30:12.910 --> 00:30:15.089
you know, everyone was registered. And so, you
00:30:15.089 --> 00:30:16.730
know, the moment you matriculated, you got your
00:30:16.730 --> 00:30:19.710
call -up papers. Typically, people went straight
00:30:19.710 --> 00:30:23.069
from school, did their two years, came back and
00:30:23.069 --> 00:30:26.920
got on with their lives, you know. But one of
00:30:26.920 --> 00:30:30.680
the questions that was in the registration form
00:30:30.680 --> 00:30:34.640
was, are you a South African citizen? And it
00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:38.400
was yes or no. And then there was a supplementary,
00:30:38.400 --> 00:30:41.079
well, if no, do you intend to become a South
00:30:41.079 --> 00:30:44.319
African citizen? And so I just put no in both
00:30:44.319 --> 00:30:47.019
cases because I wasn't a South African citizen.
00:30:47.160 --> 00:30:49.960
And I wasn't at that point intending to become
00:30:49.960 --> 00:30:54.569
a citizen because... I knew that I would, you
00:30:54.569 --> 00:30:57.130
know, that would involve me being drafted into
00:30:57.130 --> 00:30:59.490
the military. And I just wasn't interested in
00:30:59.490 --> 00:31:07.029
the military lifestyle. Also, at that time, South
00:31:07.029 --> 00:31:13.670
Africa was involved in the war in Angola. And
00:31:13.670 --> 00:31:17.430
they were supporting the Angolan forces up there.
00:31:17.799 --> 00:31:22.259
And so our soldiers were involved in a military
00:31:22.259 --> 00:31:26.440
conflict. And I just didn't, I wasn't interested
00:31:26.440 --> 00:31:32.160
in joining that. And so when I matriculated,
00:31:32.299 --> 00:31:35.299
I got a letter from Home Affairs saying, you
00:31:35.299 --> 00:31:37.380
are not required to do military service. I thought,
00:31:37.420 --> 00:31:41.539
great, fantastic. That's it, I'm done. So I started
00:31:41.539 --> 00:31:46.160
just getting on with my life. However. Over the
00:31:46.160 --> 00:31:50.859
next few years, from the late 70s into the mid
00:31:50.859 --> 00:31:56.819
to early 80s, there was a growing discontent
00:31:56.819 --> 00:32:01.259
amongst South African families who were upset
00:32:01.259 --> 00:32:04.480
that immigrants weren't actually doing military
00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:08.000
service. There was kind of this, our sons are
00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:10.519
dying for our country, so why aren't these people
00:32:10.519 --> 00:32:13.039
living in the country? They should also be fighting
00:32:13.039 --> 00:32:15.859
for us. And there was a lot of pressure on the
00:32:15.859 --> 00:32:19.640
government to address those concerns. And so
00:32:19.640 --> 00:32:25.720
in the mid -80s, I think it was 85, the government
00:32:25.720 --> 00:32:28.220
passed a law that if you were white and male
00:32:28.220 --> 00:32:33.599
and under the age of 25, you had to become a
00:32:33.599 --> 00:32:37.309
South African citizen. There was no mention of
00:32:37.309 --> 00:32:39.450
military service, but that's what it was about.
00:32:39.970 --> 00:32:42.369
Because the moment you became a citizen. So they
00:32:42.369 --> 00:32:46.910
tried to mask it. Yes. Yeah. It was a very simple
00:32:46.910 --> 00:32:51.569
mask. They phrased it politically. Yes. Yeah,
00:32:52.029 --> 00:32:55.930
exactly. It was a very simple mask. Yeah. And
00:32:55.930 --> 00:32:59.269
also you could understand the citizens' perspectives,
00:32:59.309 --> 00:33:03.480
like the mothers and sisters looking at. looking
00:33:03.480 --> 00:33:06.900
at their family members going, and I think it's
00:33:06.900 --> 00:33:10.880
kind of fair for them to say, well, if people
00:33:10.880 --> 00:33:13.019
are coming into the country and want to have
00:33:13.019 --> 00:33:18.160
the same rights we have, it's almost fair for
00:33:18.160 --> 00:33:20.079
them to go through what we're going through as
00:33:20.079 --> 00:33:23.859
well, right? Yeah, I could see that point of
00:33:23.859 --> 00:33:28.079
view. Yeah, so from their perspective, it makes
00:33:28.079 --> 00:33:31.640
sense. But at the same time, you're not about
00:33:31.640 --> 00:33:35.690
to go to war. Thank you. Yeah. Well, yeah. Yeah.
00:33:35.970 --> 00:33:38.549
But now, you see, by this time now, though, in
00:33:38.549 --> 00:33:40.569
the mid-'80s now, the war in Angola was over.
00:33:42.089 --> 00:33:49.190
What was the war about? Do you know? I should
00:33:49.190 --> 00:33:52.769
know, but I never really looked into it that
00:33:52.769 --> 00:33:55.609
closely, to be honest. We'll look it up real
00:33:55.609 --> 00:33:59.210
quick. Yeah. What was South Africa's war with
00:33:59.210 --> 00:34:02.599
Angola about? Was it a war between the two countries
00:34:02.599 --> 00:34:05.279
or was South Africa helping another country?
00:34:05.299 --> 00:34:08.139
No. I think what was happening in Angola is that
00:34:08.139 --> 00:34:12.380
there were factions within the country that were
00:34:12.380 --> 00:34:16.059
at war with each other. I think you had two different
00:34:16.059 --> 00:34:19.260
political factions, Angolan factions that were
00:34:19.260 --> 00:34:22.000
fighting each other, and we were supporting one
00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:26.079
of the factions. To be honest, at that point,
00:34:26.119 --> 00:34:28.340
I mean, I was very young. I wasn't really that
00:34:28.340 --> 00:34:30.519
interested in the nuts and bolts of it. I just
00:34:30.519 --> 00:34:34.579
knew that I didn't want to be involved. Yeah,
00:34:34.719 --> 00:34:36.940
especially if you don't know what the war is
00:34:36.940 --> 00:34:41.460
about. Yeah, yeah. I mean, wars never made much
00:34:41.460 --> 00:34:45.219
sense to me anyway. As I say, I'm a pacifist.
00:34:45.519 --> 00:34:51.920
I'm a peacemaker. I'm not a warrior. But now
00:34:51.920 --> 00:34:55.119
what had happened was by the mid-'80s, The war
00:34:55.119 --> 00:34:59.199
in Angola was over and the military at that point
00:34:59.199 --> 00:35:03.940
was being used to support the police. And at
00:35:03.940 --> 00:35:09.039
that point, you know, because tensions, political
00:35:09.039 --> 00:35:12.260
tensions were escalating in this country, there
00:35:12.260 --> 00:35:14.880
was, you know, I mean, there were calls for Nelson
00:35:14.880 --> 00:35:17.699
Mandela to be released. There were calls for
00:35:17.699 --> 00:35:21.780
regime change. You know, I mean. the injustice
00:35:21.780 --> 00:35:26.059
of apartheid had become an international issue.
00:35:26.539 --> 00:35:29.159
And there was a lot of pressure on the government
00:35:29.159 --> 00:35:37.539
to reform the politics of the country. And the
00:35:37.539 --> 00:35:40.320
Nationalist Party, actually, as an attempt to
00:35:40.320 --> 00:35:44.300
hold on to power, was attempting to ferment kind
00:35:44.300 --> 00:35:49.880
of a civil war. amongst the black nations. So
00:35:49.880 --> 00:35:56.000
they were encouraging rioting and demonstrations.
00:35:56.280 --> 00:35:58.659
Even though demonstrations were illegal, they
00:35:58.659 --> 00:36:01.300
were encouraging them so that they were really
00:36:01.300 --> 00:36:03.679
trying to make the country ungovernable and use
00:36:03.679 --> 00:36:08.559
that as an excuse to cling to power. And what
00:36:08.559 --> 00:36:14.730
was happening, it wasn't public knowledge. although
00:36:14.730 --> 00:36:16.369
some people obviously knew it was happening,
00:36:16.449 --> 00:36:19.050
but it was being suppressed to a large extent.
00:36:19.210 --> 00:36:22.070
And to those who want to remain deaf, it's very
00:36:22.070 --> 00:36:27.610
easy to ignore what's going on. But the police
00:36:27.610 --> 00:36:29.869
were really going into the townships on a regular
00:36:29.869 --> 00:36:35.730
basis and just causing trouble. And the military
00:36:35.730 --> 00:36:38.989
were being used to support. these actions. So,
00:36:39.050 --> 00:36:40.789
you know, if there was a protest, you know, the
00:36:40.789 --> 00:36:42.769
police and the military would move in, they'd
00:36:42.769 --> 00:36:45.050
be firing rubber bullets, they'd be hosing people
00:36:45.050 --> 00:36:48.130
down, they'd be arresting people. Sometimes they
00:36:48.130 --> 00:36:51.969
were using the live rounds. You know, there were
00:36:51.969 --> 00:36:54.929
journalists and reporters who were reporting
00:36:54.929 --> 00:36:57.010
on this stuff, but a lot of their voices were
00:36:57.010 --> 00:36:59.289
being suppressed. And a lot of these incidents
00:36:59.289 --> 00:37:01.809
were not being reported in the mainstream press,
00:37:02.030 --> 00:37:06.210
which was still the propagandist arm of the government.
00:37:08.269 --> 00:37:11.670
And so at the time that I got notification from
00:37:11.670 --> 00:37:14.789
Herb Affairs that I now had to become a citizen,
00:37:14.969 --> 00:37:17.869
I knew that if I joined, if I became a citizen,
00:37:18.010 --> 00:37:20.730
I would be drafted into the military and I would
00:37:20.730 --> 00:37:24.909
be going into the townships and harassing my
00:37:24.909 --> 00:37:27.530
fellow South Africans. And I just was not prepared
00:37:27.530 --> 00:37:32.050
to do that. And so the option was, well, if I
00:37:32.050 --> 00:37:36.880
could become a citizen or I could... face arrest
00:37:36.880 --> 00:37:41.420
or I could leave. And those, those were the only
00:37:41.420 --> 00:37:46.239
three options. And so I, so I, I was, it was,
00:37:46.239 --> 00:37:51.840
it was kind of a forced exile. And so, so, yeah,
00:37:51.860 --> 00:37:55.079
so I left. Your siblings are all, all sisters?
00:37:56.480 --> 00:38:01.699
No, two sisters, one brother. Okay. So what was
00:38:01.699 --> 00:38:04.179
his experience like? Did, what choice did he
00:38:04.179 --> 00:38:07.110
make? Yeah, well, my brother at this stage, I
00:38:07.110 --> 00:38:09.150
mean, he felt similarly to me, but he's much
00:38:09.150 --> 00:38:11.110
older than I am. Well, I say much older. He's
00:38:11.110 --> 00:38:14.150
seven, eight years older than I am. So he wasn't
00:38:14.150 --> 00:38:17.429
affected by the change of the law. Oh, yeah,
00:38:17.530 --> 00:38:20.710
he was too old. Yeah, because he was over 25
00:38:20.710 --> 00:38:25.349
at that stage. So he was fine. He was safe. So
00:38:25.349 --> 00:38:27.730
what was the conversation like when you told
00:38:27.730 --> 00:38:31.349
him, like, they're sending me back? What was
00:38:31.349 --> 00:38:40.510
that like? It was difficult. But again, my parents,
00:38:40.590 --> 00:38:44.030
not being very communicative, said, okay, well,
00:38:44.130 --> 00:38:46.949
you know best. Do what you have to do, kind of
00:38:46.949 --> 00:38:50.789
a thing. But were they supportive? Or were they
00:38:50.789 --> 00:38:52.210
just like, you have to return to work, right?
00:38:52.750 --> 00:38:55.090
I mean, well, my father had passed on at that
00:38:55.090 --> 00:38:59.809
stage. He passed away in 1980. So he wasn't around.
00:39:02.710 --> 00:39:05.409
I don't know exactly what my mother felt. She
00:39:05.409 --> 00:39:09.590
was, she wasn't very, she never really showed
00:39:09.590 --> 00:39:12.789
what she felt. She was a very private person
00:39:12.789 --> 00:39:16.429
and she rarely displayed emotions. So it was
00:39:16.429 --> 00:39:18.710
always very difficult to know what she was actually
00:39:18.710 --> 00:39:22.769
thinking. But she was kind of supportive and,
00:39:22.769 --> 00:39:26.630
you know, outwardly. What she felt, I don't know.
00:39:28.759 --> 00:39:32.260
That's insane. You had the opportunity to come
00:39:32.260 --> 00:39:36.219
back. What was that like? Well, I didn't know
00:39:36.219 --> 00:39:38.280
at the time whether I had the opportunity to
00:39:38.280 --> 00:39:43.219
come back or not. I had some, I mean, after I
00:39:43.219 --> 00:39:45.400
sort of made the decision or I was faced with
00:39:45.400 --> 00:39:47.699
making this choice, I was chatting to some friends
00:39:47.699 --> 00:39:51.670
and somebody I knew said, I don't know. And well,
00:39:51.769 --> 00:39:52.929
they said, you know, so where are you going to
00:39:52.929 --> 00:39:55.210
go? And I said, well, I don't really know. But
00:39:55.210 --> 00:39:57.010
I mean, I guess I'm going to go back to England
00:39:57.010 --> 00:39:58.630
because I mean, I've got a British passport.
00:39:59.329 --> 00:40:04.969
I don't know where else I should go. But I said,
00:40:04.969 --> 00:40:07.469
you know, I said, well, I mean, I'd recently
00:40:07.469 --> 00:40:09.949
got married. I was working. I mean, I was just
00:40:09.949 --> 00:40:12.630
really getting my life together when I was faced
00:40:12.630 --> 00:40:16.570
with this ultimatum. And so I wanted to come
00:40:16.570 --> 00:40:20.340
back. I didn't want to leave. But the other two
00:40:20.340 --> 00:40:23.900
options weren't on the table for me. So this
00:40:23.900 --> 00:40:26.019
friend of mine said, oh, well, his family live
00:40:26.019 --> 00:40:30.079
in Zambia. They live just outside Lusaka. Maybe
00:40:30.079 --> 00:40:32.079
you should just go there rather than going all
00:40:32.079 --> 00:40:34.460
the way to England. Maybe just go to Lusaka until
00:40:34.460 --> 00:40:37.159
you can see what you can sort out. I thought,
00:40:37.199 --> 00:40:42.159
oh, that sounds like a good idea. And the other
00:40:42.159 --> 00:40:45.059
thing, of course, is at the time, the ANC headquarters
00:40:45.059 --> 00:40:48.309
were in Lusaka. And Zambia was very, very sympathetic
00:40:48.309 --> 00:40:52.929
to the anti -apartheid movement. So it seemed
00:40:52.929 --> 00:40:54.849
to me like that would be a good place to go.
00:40:55.010 --> 00:40:59.750
And so that's what I did, actually. I left the
00:40:59.750 --> 00:41:03.269
country with virtually nothing. I explained to
00:41:03.269 --> 00:41:08.250
my wife then, I've got to go. I'll try to get
00:41:08.250 --> 00:41:11.070
back, but I can't promise. We'll just have to
00:41:11.070 --> 00:41:15.199
work it out as we go along. So I left really
00:41:15.199 --> 00:41:17.059
not knowing if I was going to come back or not.
00:41:17.639 --> 00:41:22.219
But I was eventually able to return. Well, I
00:41:22.219 --> 00:41:24.300
say eventually. Actually, I was quite lucky.
00:41:24.360 --> 00:41:28.099
I was able to return relatively quickly. I went
00:41:28.099 --> 00:41:32.820
to the – How long was that? It was a couple of
00:41:32.820 --> 00:41:39.099
months. Oh, that's quick. Yeah. I mean, it could
00:41:39.099 --> 00:41:44.280
have gone either way. But actually, it really
00:41:44.280 --> 00:41:48.039
worked out well for me in that way because it
00:41:48.039 --> 00:41:52.699
wasn't too long. It was a hiccup and it was tricky
00:41:52.699 --> 00:41:55.400
and it was interesting and challenging and all
00:41:55.400 --> 00:41:58.000
of those good things. But ultimately, it actually
00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:02.880
worked out quite well. The British Embassy in
00:42:02.880 --> 00:42:04.840
Lusaka were very understanding and they were
00:42:04.840 --> 00:42:09.039
very helpful. They took my old passport, which
00:42:09.039 --> 00:42:12.380
had all my cancelled residence permits and work
00:42:12.380 --> 00:42:15.119
permits from here in it. They threw that away
00:42:15.119 --> 00:42:17.800
and they gave me a new British passport, which
00:42:17.800 --> 00:42:22.340
listed me as a Zambian resident. And they said,
00:42:22.340 --> 00:42:24.579
if you can get a job offer in Joburg or in South
00:42:24.579 --> 00:42:28.199
Africa, then they'll probably let you back in,
00:42:28.239 --> 00:42:30.800
no problem. So I phoned my old boss and I said,
00:42:30.800 --> 00:42:33.670
you know. can you hire me back? And he said,
00:42:33.710 --> 00:42:39.010
no problem. So we were able to work it all out
00:42:39.010 --> 00:42:43.949
and convince Home Affairs that I was a new immigrant
00:42:43.949 --> 00:42:48.170
coming to work here. And it all kind of worked
00:42:48.170 --> 00:42:56.829
out. So how long after that? Did you come back
00:42:56.829 --> 00:43:01.710
after the system was abolished? Or was it still
00:43:01.710 --> 00:43:04.010
in place? Well, the system was still in place.
00:43:04.590 --> 00:43:08.269
But because I was now a Zambian resident and
00:43:08.269 --> 00:43:12.690
not a South African Zambian citizen, well, a
00:43:12.690 --> 00:43:17.769
British citizen but Zambian resident, I couldn't
00:43:17.769 --> 00:43:20.130
be drafted into the military because countries
00:43:20.130 --> 00:43:22.230
aren't allowed to draft foreign nationals into
00:43:22.230 --> 00:43:25.949
the military. But because I also was no longer
00:43:25.949 --> 00:43:28.670
a permanent resident in South Africa, I couldn't
00:43:28.670 --> 00:43:31.380
be forced to become a citizen. I was essentially
00:43:31.380 --> 00:43:35.000
working on tourist visas, well, not tourist visas,
00:43:35.179 --> 00:43:37.699
but foreign national visas. And so I just kept
00:43:37.699 --> 00:43:42.360
renewing my visa every six months until I hit
00:43:42.360 --> 00:43:48.539
my mid -20s. In fact, it was quite fun, actually.
00:43:48.579 --> 00:43:50.980
One day I got a phone call. I was at work and
00:43:50.980 --> 00:43:53.340
I just get this phone call from the Department
00:43:53.340 --> 00:43:58.190
of Home Affairs. Is this Mr. Stanley Adams? Yes.
00:43:58.489 --> 00:44:00.550
Well, this is so -and -so from Home Affairs.
00:44:01.150 --> 00:44:04.269
And I'm thinking, oh, no, they found out. They've
00:44:04.269 --> 00:44:06.650
bust me. They're going to send me back. You've
00:44:06.650 --> 00:44:10.050
got to go. And they said, you know, sir, we noticed
00:44:10.050 --> 00:44:12.989
that you've been working here now for about three
00:44:12.989 --> 00:44:19.969
years on these temporary permits. Yes. I said,
00:44:20.010 --> 00:44:22.210
well, have you considered becoming a citizen?
00:44:22.469 --> 00:44:26.769
I said, oh. oh, what do I have to do to do that?
00:44:26.969 --> 00:44:28.550
And they said, oh, well, you know, just come
00:44:28.550 --> 00:44:30.469
down to Home Affairs and fill out the paperwork
00:44:30.469 --> 00:44:34.469
and you can become a citizen. And I was, I'd
00:44:34.469 --> 00:44:38.010
just like turned 25, you know, recently turned
00:44:38.010 --> 00:44:41.269
25. So I said, oh, okay, no, great. Thank you
00:44:41.269 --> 00:44:45.449
very much. I'll see you next week. And went through
00:44:45.449 --> 00:44:48.130
the whole process of reapplying to become a citizen
00:44:48.130 --> 00:44:52.889
and, hey, been here ever since. That's fire.
00:44:53.469 --> 00:44:57.250
So how old were you when the system was abolished,
00:44:57.269 --> 00:45:03.449
when it changed? Well, I think I was just, I
00:45:03.449 --> 00:45:07.489
might have been 26 or 25, thereabouts. I kind
00:45:07.489 --> 00:45:11.510
of just sort of breached the age limit when I
00:45:11.510 --> 00:45:15.050
got this call from. And early on, what are the
00:45:15.050 --> 00:45:17.269
things that, were there any drastic changes?
00:45:17.429 --> 00:45:20.590
Like just like, wow, like apparent drastic changes?
00:45:22.679 --> 00:45:24.920
What, between the time I left and between the
00:45:24.920 --> 00:45:28.460
time I got back? No, between when the system
00:45:28.460 --> 00:45:38.219
was about it. Oh, not really. Well, I mean, it
00:45:38.219 --> 00:45:40.300
was obvious that apartheid was going to end.
00:45:41.400 --> 00:45:43.239
You know, the writing was kind of on the wall
00:45:43.239 --> 00:45:45.679
for the Nationalist Party and for the apartheid
00:45:45.679 --> 00:45:50.159
government. I think they had realized that, you
00:45:50.159 --> 00:45:53.750
know, they were going to have to. you know, concede
00:45:53.750 --> 00:45:58.989
power at some point. In fact, F .W. de Klerk,
00:45:59.070 --> 00:46:05.550
actually, I think he was, he realized that. At
00:46:05.550 --> 00:46:09.050
the time, he wasn't the prime minister, or the
00:46:09.050 --> 00:46:13.110
president, rather. I forget who, who was it who
00:46:13.110 --> 00:46:16.750
was before F .W. de Klerk? Oh, my memory's gone.
00:46:16.989 --> 00:46:20.789
Anyway, but... De Klerk was campaigning to become
00:46:20.789 --> 00:46:24.989
the president of the Nationalist Party. And it
00:46:24.989 --> 00:46:31.110
was pretty clear that he was going to be working
00:46:31.110 --> 00:46:36.429
to dismantle apartheid if he was elected. And
00:46:36.429 --> 00:46:39.349
he got elected, actually. I think a lot of folks
00:46:39.349 --> 00:46:41.869
actually realized that there was no way that
00:46:41.869 --> 00:46:43.969
the nationalist government could continue to
00:46:43.969 --> 00:46:50.460
cling to power. And in fact, amongst a large
00:46:50.460 --> 00:46:52.280
section of the white population, it was a popular
00:46:52.280 --> 00:46:57.719
decision. Obviously, you had your diehard racist.
00:47:00.500 --> 00:47:05.260
But there was also a lot of folks who were not
00:47:05.260 --> 00:47:11.219
racist. How much pushback did they get from the
00:47:11.219 --> 00:47:16.079
citizens? There was some pushback, as I say,
00:47:16.099 --> 00:47:18.599
from a certain section of the population. But
00:47:18.599 --> 00:47:23.099
there was also a lot of support for dismantling
00:47:23.099 --> 00:47:29.719
apartheid. And so de Klerk won the nomination
00:47:29.719 --> 00:47:34.719
and then set about dismantling apartheid. He
00:47:34.719 --> 00:47:38.400
announced pretty much immediately that he was
00:47:38.400 --> 00:47:40.400
going to be doing that. And that was, I think...
00:47:40.889 --> 00:47:44.610
That was 19, I think it was the late 90s, sorry,
00:47:45.730 --> 00:47:49.369
the late 80s or the early 90s. And that's when
00:47:49.369 --> 00:47:51.309
he set about dismantling apartheid, which then,
00:47:51.329 --> 00:47:56.769
of course, happened in 94. Nelson Mandela was
00:47:56.769 --> 00:48:01.070
released and the ANC was legitimized and all
00:48:01.070 --> 00:48:08.800
of those good things. So, like... A white -only
00:48:08.800 --> 00:48:11.440
area, for example, was that like it doesn't exist
00:48:11.440 --> 00:48:16.980
anymore as soon as they abolished it? Legally
00:48:16.980 --> 00:48:21.800
speaking, yes. Those legal restrictions were
00:48:21.800 --> 00:48:26.380
dismantled. Yeah, but you still couldn't walk
00:48:26.380 --> 00:48:31.880
in. Yeah, I think the social segregation was
00:48:31.880 --> 00:48:34.719
so entrenched that that wasn't going to change
00:48:34.719 --> 00:48:38.389
overnight. You know, I mean, you still had, you
00:48:38.389 --> 00:48:40.309
know, I mean, you know, white areas were still
00:48:40.309 --> 00:48:42.409
very white and black areas were still black.
00:48:43.050 --> 00:48:45.449
And it's not like everyone immediately, like,
00:48:45.489 --> 00:48:49.929
you know, actively, like, jumped into each other's
00:48:49.929 --> 00:48:55.630
zones or areas. But, I mean, but we've slowly
00:48:55.630 --> 00:48:58.630
seen, you know, sort of a dissemination of groups
00:48:58.630 --> 00:49:04.409
and a mixing of groups, which is great. Okay,
00:49:04.469 --> 00:49:06.730
so we can also see in terms of your careers,
00:49:06.769 --> 00:49:09.110
of course, you worked in a record shop. Like,
00:49:09.110 --> 00:49:14.510
how was that? In a record shop? Yeah. Oh, yes.
00:49:14.570 --> 00:49:20.170
That was fun. Yeah, I've always been a music
00:49:20.170 --> 00:49:23.570
fan. I love music. Always have done. I mean,
00:49:23.590 --> 00:49:31.550
one of my earliest memories is about music. It's...
00:49:32.360 --> 00:49:35.960
goes back to, yeah, I think I was maybe about
00:49:35.960 --> 00:49:38.840
two years old. And I remember my eldest sister,
00:49:38.920 --> 00:49:42.059
who was a teenager at the time, she came home
00:49:42.059 --> 00:49:44.800
with the Beatles' second album, which had just
00:49:44.800 --> 00:49:48.000
been released. And I remember hearing this and
00:49:48.000 --> 00:49:51.860
thinking, what? I was absolutely falling in love
00:49:51.860 --> 00:49:54.480
with it. And I've just been a huge music fan
00:49:54.480 --> 00:49:56.440
ever since. Music's been very important to me.
00:49:57.489 --> 00:50:00.869
So like whilst working at the, oh, no, you can
00:50:00.869 --> 00:50:02.769
continue. Yeah, no, working at the record shop
00:50:02.769 --> 00:50:07.889
was great. I loved it. It was kind of like being
00:50:07.889 --> 00:50:12.530
at home, you know, and I just got to talk to
00:50:12.530 --> 00:50:15.869
people about music all day and got paid for it.
00:50:18.489 --> 00:50:21.210
So like whilst working at the record shop, did
00:50:21.210 --> 00:50:23.449
you like secretly charge other people's music?
00:50:27.670 --> 00:50:36.110
Yeah, I guess I did. But, you know, not to the
00:50:36.110 --> 00:50:39.010
point that I was ever rude about it. Well, I
00:50:39.010 --> 00:50:41.750
hope I wasn't rude about it. No, I mean, different
00:50:41.750 --> 00:50:44.909
people have different tastes. I'd like to feel
00:50:44.909 --> 00:50:47.090
that, you know, I'm entitled to like the music
00:50:47.090 --> 00:50:49.670
I want and I accord everyone else the same privilege.
00:50:51.190 --> 00:50:53.550
In fact, I mean, that's kind of like one of my...
00:50:53.800 --> 00:50:56.219
I would say it's one of the principles that I
00:50:56.219 --> 00:50:59.659
try to apply to life in general is that, you
00:50:59.659 --> 00:51:03.239
know, I try not to be judgmental of people because
00:51:03.239 --> 00:51:06.500
I want to live in a world where I'm not judged.
00:51:06.900 --> 00:51:13.019
And I think, yeah, everyone has that right. I
00:51:13.019 --> 00:51:14.860
mean, I might not necessarily like everyone's
00:51:14.860 --> 00:51:16.719
taste in music, but hey, you know, you listen
00:51:16.719 --> 00:51:19.099
to what you want to listen to. What exactly is
00:51:19.099 --> 00:51:24.920
your taste in music? I'd like to think it's fairly
00:51:24.920 --> 00:51:30.559
broad. I'm not a fan of opera. Don't like opera.
00:51:31.199 --> 00:51:38.000
Who is? Well, there are some. I'm not a big fan
00:51:38.000 --> 00:51:40.639
of very traditional American country and Western
00:51:40.639 --> 00:51:43.420
music, you know, that sort of yee -haw fiddles
00:51:43.420 --> 00:51:49.380
and banjos and stuff. But I kind of, I think
00:51:49.380 --> 00:51:51.239
I like pretty much little bits of everything
00:51:51.239 --> 00:51:57.989
else. I guess essentially I'm a rock fan. I would
00:51:57.989 --> 00:52:00.809
say that that's probably the genre I listen to
00:52:00.809 --> 00:52:03.909
the most. Because listening to rock and roll
00:52:03.909 --> 00:52:07.829
in the early 60s and then just listening to rock
00:52:07.829 --> 00:52:10.010
and pop and all the way through. Yeah, it was
00:52:10.010 --> 00:52:13.190
really popular back then in the 60s. Oh, yes.
00:52:13.230 --> 00:52:16.170
Oh, yes. I loved all that stuff. It was the genre,
00:52:16.429 --> 00:52:22.019
huh? Yeah. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. And then
00:52:22.019 --> 00:52:24.300
in the 70s, you know, when reggae suddenly started
00:52:24.300 --> 00:52:28.800
to become a thing, I really enjoyed reggae. And
00:52:28.800 --> 00:52:31.260
early 80s, I sort of heard a little bit of hip
00:52:31.260 --> 00:52:36.659
hop and I've even enjoyed some of that. So, yeah,
00:52:36.760 --> 00:52:39.179
I'd like to think that I have a fairly broad
00:52:39.179 --> 00:52:43.059
taste. End of the day, it's all music. Are you
00:52:43.059 --> 00:52:46.559
an album guy? An album guy? Oh, yes, very much
00:52:46.559 --> 00:52:50.920
so. I need a few albums. I need a few albums
00:52:50.920 --> 00:52:53.760
to listen to after this podcast. Hit me with
00:52:53.760 --> 00:52:57.019
a few. What genre would you like to explore?
00:52:58.000 --> 00:53:04.099
I don't know. Surprise me. Okay. Let's start
00:53:04.099 --> 00:53:14.500
with pop. Pop. Okay. I would say U2. Maybe try
00:53:14.500 --> 00:53:17.630
some U2. You too? Write that down. Write that
00:53:17.630 --> 00:53:22.670
down. Write that down. You too? Gosh, pop. What
00:53:22.670 --> 00:53:29.530
else? Sure. I'm not as much of a pop fan as I
00:53:29.530 --> 00:53:32.630
am maybe as a sort of a more progressive rock
00:53:32.630 --> 00:53:36.949
fan. Okay, let's jump into rock then. Let's jump
00:53:36.949 --> 00:53:40.530
into rock. Okay. I think you've got to listen
00:53:40.530 --> 00:53:46.179
to Pink Floyd. Okay, I'll play this. Wish You
00:53:46.179 --> 00:53:49.619
Were Here is fire. I like that. Yep, that's a
00:53:49.619 --> 00:53:52.699
stunning album. Yeah. You're familiar with that?
00:53:53.119 --> 00:53:57.400
Yeah. Oh, great. Okay, well, you're in at the
00:53:57.400 --> 00:54:02.940
top floor then. I don't know if you're familiar
00:54:02.940 --> 00:54:08.639
with Led Zeppelin? No. Okay, try Led Zeppelin.
00:54:09.840 --> 00:54:14.420
Yes. There's an album, it's called Led Zeppelin
00:54:14.420 --> 00:54:19.400
3. The first four albums weren't named. They
00:54:19.400 --> 00:54:21.079
were just numbered. Self -titled albums three
00:54:21.079 --> 00:54:26.420
times? Four times, actually. That's insane. Yeah,
00:54:26.559 --> 00:54:31.860
yeah. But of the four, I think three is probably
00:54:31.860 --> 00:54:36.739
my favorite. And there's some fairly heavy electric
00:54:36.739 --> 00:54:39.300
stuff and there's some nice acoustic stuff. There's
00:54:39.300 --> 00:54:42.320
a nice balance of... and variety on that album.
00:54:42.960 --> 00:54:47.460
I don't know if you're familiar with REM. They
00:54:47.460 --> 00:54:54.820
were an American band that came out. They were
00:54:54.820 --> 00:54:59.019
kind of what I guess you'd call post -punk. So
00:54:59.019 --> 00:55:02.500
they're kind of like indie rock, worth listening
00:55:02.500 --> 00:55:07.079
to, I think. Listen to their first six albums.
00:55:08.239 --> 00:55:13.659
What do you listen to now? I'm still listening
00:55:13.659 --> 00:55:16.760
to a lot of this stuff, to be honest. I'm finding
00:55:16.760 --> 00:55:19.420
very little in the way of new music that interests
00:55:19.420 --> 00:55:24.519
me. I'm sorry to say. I mean, nostalgia. Nostalgia
00:55:24.519 --> 00:55:30.519
is... Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know if you're
00:55:30.519 --> 00:55:36.400
familiar with Peter Gabriel. No. Yeah, he's worth
00:55:36.400 --> 00:55:38.980
trying. We're going to listen to all of this,
00:55:39.059 --> 00:55:40.639
and they're going to judge you. Our fans are
00:55:40.639 --> 00:55:42.519
very judgmental. To be honest with you. Okay.
00:55:42.800 --> 00:55:47.559
So we have you back. We're going to tell you
00:55:47.559 --> 00:55:51.500
how it went. Good, good. No, please. I want feedback,
00:55:51.699 --> 00:55:53.820
you know? Yeah, we're going to tell you how it
00:55:53.820 --> 00:55:56.900
went. If I give people homework, I want to know
00:55:56.900 --> 00:56:01.500
how it went. So definitely let me know. Yeah,
00:56:01.519 --> 00:56:03.659
hopefully they'll be nice. I don't know if you
00:56:03.659 --> 00:56:07.559
know a band called Genesis. No, I've never heard
00:56:07.559 --> 00:56:12.530
of them. Okay. Phil Collins? Phil Collins, yeah.
00:56:13.929 --> 00:56:17.070
Yeah, I've heard of Phil Collins. Anyway, Phil
00:56:17.070 --> 00:56:21.090
Collins and Peter Gabriel were in a band together
00:56:21.090 --> 00:56:25.110
called Genesis. And Genesis at that point were
00:56:25.110 --> 00:56:27.369
what we call a prog rock band or progressive
00:56:27.369 --> 00:56:30.309
rock band, which was, it was rock, but it was
00:56:30.309 --> 00:56:32.030
kind of like the more interesting end of rock,
00:56:32.130 --> 00:56:35.409
you know, more complex. melodies and arrangements,
00:56:35.710 --> 00:56:38.590
longer pieces. They weren't writing pop songs.
00:56:38.750 --> 00:56:43.789
They were writing much more intricate and sophisticated
00:56:43.789 --> 00:56:46.030
stuff, much more sophisticated than just your
00:56:46.030 --> 00:56:47.809
average pop team. Anyway, they were in a band
00:56:47.809 --> 00:56:55.530
together. In what way? In what way? Sorry, in
00:56:55.530 --> 00:56:59.829
what way what? Sophisticated. Was it layered?
00:57:01.199 --> 00:57:03.260
Yeah, much more layered, much more textured,
00:57:03.480 --> 00:57:09.739
more complex melodies, deeper, more structure,
00:57:10.019 --> 00:57:13.739
greater arrangements. Sort of, it's kind of like,
00:57:13.800 --> 00:57:15.840
if you can imagine rocks, it's been influenced
00:57:15.840 --> 00:57:19.119
a little bit by classical music. So you've got
00:57:19.119 --> 00:57:22.800
a level of sophistication, which is just a little
00:57:22.800 --> 00:57:25.019
bit higher than your average year baby rock tune.
00:57:25.639 --> 00:57:28.559
You know, not three chords, but probably like,
00:57:28.559 --> 00:57:32.000
you know. 12 chords, and different time signatures
00:57:32.000 --> 00:57:34.599
and sections where the tempos change and things
00:57:34.599 --> 00:57:38.360
like that. So prog and even elements maybe of
00:57:38.360 --> 00:57:40.480
jazz every now and again as well. There's some
00:57:40.480 --> 00:57:45.599
crossover there. So that came after years of
00:57:45.599 --> 00:57:50.780
just growth. Well, yeah, that kind of was one
00:57:50.780 --> 00:57:53.980
of the branches of rock and roll. Rock and roll
00:57:53.980 --> 00:57:57.039
was a fairly simple music which came out of blues.
00:57:59.230 --> 00:58:02.489
But rock and roll kind of diverged into pop,
00:58:02.670 --> 00:58:05.090
but it also diverged into what we call prog rock,
00:58:05.210 --> 00:58:07.429
progressive rock, which is this more complex,
00:58:07.570 --> 00:58:10.909
more interesting type of... I mean, Pink Floyd
00:58:10.909 --> 00:58:14.409
is prog rock, basically. So if you know Pink
00:58:14.409 --> 00:58:19.130
Floyd, that's prog. Yeah, there you go. Anyway,
00:58:19.250 --> 00:58:21.789
so Peter Gabriel and Phil Collins were in Genesis
00:58:21.789 --> 00:58:26.389
together. Genesis in the early 70s was very much
00:58:26.389 --> 00:58:30.230
a prog band. But then Gabriel left in about 1976,
00:58:30.469 --> 00:58:34.630
and Genesis carried on with Phil Collins, and
00:58:34.630 --> 00:58:37.769
Phil Collins turned Genesis into a pop band over
00:58:37.769 --> 00:58:41.610
the next decade or so. And Peter Gabriel went
00:58:41.610 --> 00:58:46.650
on his way, and he carried on doing more interesting
00:58:46.650 --> 00:58:51.969
music. But he also got very much into world music.
00:58:51.989 --> 00:58:55.170
He got very much into music of other cultures.
00:58:56.969 --> 00:59:00.369
A lot of African cultures, Asian cultures, and
00:59:00.369 --> 00:59:02.130
he introduced all of those elements into his
00:59:02.130 --> 00:59:04.789
music as well. So I would definitely recommend
00:59:04.789 --> 00:59:08.550
you give Peter Gabriel a listen as well. Yeah,
00:59:08.590 --> 00:59:11.530
we will do that. So in your opinion, what's the
00:59:11.530 --> 00:59:19.769
most underrated genre of music? Whoa. Tough one,
00:59:19.809 --> 00:59:26.420
yeah. Yeah, that is tough. Sure. I don't know.
00:59:27.260 --> 00:59:31.019
I can't give you an answer to that question,
00:59:31.059 --> 00:59:36.699
I'm afraid. Sorry. What's your opinion? What
00:59:36.699 --> 00:59:42.400
do you think? In my opinion? Yeah. Hip -hop.
00:59:43.579 --> 00:59:50.099
Okay. Yeah. Because it's so layered. It's so
00:59:50.099 --> 00:59:55.809
layered. Yeah, I think. I hear that. I think
00:59:55.809 --> 00:59:59.670
hip -hop does have a bit of a bad reputation,
00:59:59.750 --> 01:00:03.469
which I think is unfair. I think it's viewed
01:00:03.469 --> 01:00:07.190
by a lot of people as just being too simplistic.
01:00:07.809 --> 01:00:12.230
And I think that's unfair. I think there's some
01:00:12.230 --> 01:00:16.090
very interesting hip -hop out there. Though I
01:00:16.090 --> 01:00:18.090
must say the hip -hop I tend to listen to tends
01:00:18.090 --> 01:00:21.809
to be older. I like sort of the sort of like
01:00:21.809 --> 01:00:26.309
late 80s gangster rap. kind of stuff. Late 80s.
01:00:26.309 --> 01:00:30.610
It was popping in the 80s. Yeah, Ice -T, Public
01:00:30.610 --> 01:00:35.230
Enemy, the Wu -Tang Clan, people like that. Okay,
01:00:35.230 --> 01:00:40.449
Wu -Tang. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, that's the kind of
01:00:40.449 --> 01:00:43.730
end of hip -hop that I enjoy. Oh, so you never
01:00:43.730 --> 01:00:48.630
transitioned into Biggie, Eminem, you never got
01:00:48.630 --> 01:00:50.630
around to that? Oh, Eminem? Yeah, no, Eminem
01:00:50.630 --> 01:00:54.519
I enjoyed as well. I like Eminem. Biggie I'm
01:00:54.519 --> 01:00:58.519
not that familiar with, to be honest. I hear
01:00:58.519 --> 01:01:03.179
some of the current hip -hop is a bit poppy for
01:01:03.179 --> 01:01:06.539
my taste. I think there is some lightweight hip
01:01:06.539 --> 01:01:13.320
-hop out there, to be fair. So you're not the
01:01:13.320 --> 01:01:16.179
biggest pop fan, so you don't like this sound?
01:01:16.920 --> 01:01:21.230
No, no. I think pop is... The thing with pop
01:01:21.230 --> 01:01:26.349
is that it's instantly accessible, but as a result
01:01:26.349 --> 01:01:29.690
of that, it's also instantly forgettable. I find
01:01:29.690 --> 01:01:35.010
pop tends to be quite one -dimensional. I mean,
01:01:35.010 --> 01:01:38.670
you can enjoy it, but for me, it doesn't have
01:01:38.670 --> 01:01:41.590
any staying power. That's why I think I prefer
01:01:41.590 --> 01:01:44.530
more interesting music like progressive rock
01:01:44.530 --> 01:01:48.739
and jazz. and the classics and things like that
01:01:48.739 --> 01:01:53.579
because they just have longer legs. There's always
01:01:53.579 --> 01:01:56.079
something more to discover or there's just more
01:01:56.079 --> 01:01:58.659
to get your teeth into. Are you a lyric guy?
01:02:00.679 --> 01:02:05.019
Yes. So you're not out here listening to Beethoven?
01:02:06.320 --> 01:02:09.980
Well, that as well. I like lyrics. I don't have
01:02:09.980 --> 01:02:12.940
to have lyrics. I appreciate good lyrics. but
01:02:12.940 --> 01:02:17.219
I also appreciate good instrumentation. Again,
01:02:17.360 --> 01:02:19.440
I'd like to think that my taste is quite broad.
01:02:20.079 --> 01:02:24.599
So yeah, no, Beethoven, Bach, two of my favorite
01:02:24.599 --> 01:02:33.340
classical composers. Because Beethoven was an
01:02:33.340 --> 01:02:38.239
interesting guy as well. Because he really put...
01:02:38.570 --> 01:02:40.809
You know when they say an artist puts everything
01:02:40.809 --> 01:02:43.769
into their music? He was one of those. Without
01:02:43.769 --> 01:02:46.309
even being able to hear, still performing. That
01:02:46.309 --> 01:02:49.429
was impressive. That was impressive. Yeah, that
01:02:49.429 --> 01:02:53.510
was kind of towards the end of his composing
01:02:53.510 --> 01:02:56.010
career. He started to lose his hearing a little
01:02:56.010 --> 01:03:01.289
bit. But fortunately, he was able to put out
01:03:01.289 --> 01:03:05.510
a huge body of work before that happened. In
01:03:05.510 --> 01:03:08.170
fact, I think the first piece of classical music
01:03:08.170 --> 01:03:11.429
I ever appreciated was Beethoven. My dad liked
01:03:11.429 --> 01:03:13.989
classical music a lot, and he would always play
01:03:13.989 --> 01:03:17.449
that. And Beethoven was his favorite. And so
01:03:17.449 --> 01:03:22.030
that's how I got to know classical music. Beethoven's
01:03:22.030 --> 01:03:27.949
Fifth Piano Concerto. That was the one. You're
01:03:27.949 --> 01:03:31.909
also a history fan. Oh, yes. Yeah. Yeah, what
01:03:31.909 --> 01:03:36.900
kind of history? Just general history, really.
01:03:38.059 --> 01:03:42.500
I can't claim to be an expert on history. I'm
01:03:42.500 --> 01:03:45.900
very stupid about a lot of things. Let me put
01:03:45.900 --> 01:03:48.980
that out there for you right now. But I do have
01:03:48.980 --> 01:03:52.239
an interest in history. Because history, I think,
01:03:52.300 --> 01:03:55.539
gives us... History tells us why the world is
01:03:55.539 --> 01:03:58.840
the way it is today. If you look around the world
01:03:58.840 --> 01:04:01.579
and wonder, how did we get here? Well, history
01:04:01.579 --> 01:04:05.659
is... That's the answer. So I think it's very
01:04:05.659 --> 01:04:12.320
important. I'm obsessed with the war and the
01:04:12.320 --> 01:04:18.079
conqueror's part. Whenever you mention an old
01:04:18.079 --> 01:04:20.780
conqueror like Genghis Khan, you got me. You
01:04:20.780 --> 01:04:26.780
got me. I'm all in. I'll listen for hours. Yeah,
01:04:26.780 --> 01:04:29.360
I know. I mean, well, that's a very formative
01:04:29.360 --> 01:04:32.820
aspect of history. You know, war is... A large
01:04:32.820 --> 01:04:34.760
reason for the way the world is today is because
01:04:34.760 --> 01:04:41.739
of war over the millennia. Yeah, I never really
01:04:41.739 --> 01:04:46.219
like modern history, like World War II, because
01:04:46.219 --> 01:04:49.079
I feel like that's too close to home. It's like,
01:04:49.179 --> 01:04:54.579
you know, the conquerors feel more like stories,
01:04:54.659 --> 01:05:02.739
which I could dive into more. Okay. Yeah. Yeah,
01:05:02.760 --> 01:05:09.199
I think I like modern history as well. Because,
01:05:09.340 --> 01:05:14.519
I mean, you say it's close, it's recent. I think
01:05:14.519 --> 01:05:18.619
it's easier to see the direct impact of modern
01:05:18.619 --> 01:05:20.800
history on the world. And that's why I think
01:05:20.800 --> 01:05:24.480
it's important. I mean, currently, I'm actually
01:05:24.480 --> 01:05:27.500
binging on watching Trump set the world on fire.
01:05:30.809 --> 01:05:36.030
which is interesting, but also very depressing.
01:05:37.130 --> 01:05:40.110
That's the problem with modern history. It's
01:05:40.110 --> 01:05:47.849
too close to home. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm
01:05:47.849 --> 01:05:51.130
just one of those people. I can't comfortably
01:05:51.130 --> 01:05:53.650
just look away and pretend it's not happening.
01:05:54.230 --> 01:05:57.469
I want to know what's going on, as bad as it
01:05:57.469 --> 01:06:06.929
is. Like, hit me. Hi, Mr. Mark. It's me back
01:06:06.929 --> 01:06:16.090
again. Yeah. Yeah, it was. Hi, Mr. Mark. Last
01:06:16.090 --> 01:06:19.329
time we met the first time and then I found out
01:06:19.329 --> 01:06:24.449
and you told me that you're into cartoonists,
01:06:24.550 --> 01:06:27.050
you're a graphic designer, you're into animation,
01:06:27.369 --> 01:06:31.519
designing stories. So I never got like the full
01:06:31.519 --> 01:06:36.119
history on how'd you get the interest for becoming
01:06:36.119 --> 01:06:39.179
animates and cartoonists. Can you please provide
01:06:39.179 --> 01:06:42.219
me, you know, history lesson on it? How'd you
01:06:42.219 --> 01:06:47.519
find interest in it? Okay. There's not much of
01:06:47.519 --> 01:06:49.000
a story there. There's not much of a history
01:06:49.000 --> 01:06:53.820
there. I just always liked pictures. I've always
01:06:53.820 --> 01:06:58.800
been a visual guy, you know. And I always enjoyed
01:06:58.800 --> 01:07:02.699
drawing. As far back as I can remember, I was
01:07:02.699 --> 01:07:06.420
happy if I had a piece of paper and a pencil
01:07:06.420 --> 01:07:10.019
in my hand and I would just draw. I mean, as
01:07:10.019 --> 01:07:12.079
a kid, I would draw on the walls and then my
01:07:12.079 --> 01:07:15.960
mother would shit on me for that. Oh, sorry.
01:07:17.360 --> 01:07:19.820
Are we allowed to use bad language on this podcast?
01:07:20.679 --> 01:07:24.960
Oh, that's all we do here. Oh, okay. Oh, good.
01:07:25.420 --> 01:07:28.500
Because I can give you the cleaner version for
01:07:28.500 --> 01:07:34.480
the edit if you want. No. Okay. Right. Okay.
01:07:35.219 --> 01:07:38.400
No, so I'd get in trouble for drawing on the
01:07:38.400 --> 01:07:43.559
walls, but it didn't stop me. And yeah, if my
01:07:43.559 --> 01:07:45.840
mother wanted to shut me up, she'd just give
01:07:45.840 --> 01:07:48.920
me a box of wax crayons and some paper and I'd
01:07:48.920 --> 01:07:52.500
just sit and draw. And I just, yeah, I've just
01:07:52.500 --> 01:07:56.909
always loved drawing. And I've always loved movies,
01:07:57.090 --> 01:08:02.250
pictures, more pictures. And when I was 10 years
01:08:02.250 --> 01:08:04.829
old, my sister, my eldest sister, my 17 years
01:08:04.829 --> 01:08:08.449
older than me sister, she traded in her old camera
01:08:08.449 --> 01:08:10.429
for a new one and she gave me her old camera.
01:08:10.909 --> 01:08:13.750
And I just started taking photographs as well.
01:08:15.349 --> 01:08:19.130
So, yeah, I mean, cartoons, animation. I mean,
01:08:19.130 --> 01:08:20.430
you know, if you love cartoons, you've got to
01:08:20.430 --> 01:08:24.189
love animation. I grew up watching Looney Tunes
01:08:24.189 --> 01:08:26.909
and the Flintstones and the Pink Panthers and,
01:08:26.970 --> 01:08:28.689
you know, the Bugs Bunnies and all of those.
01:08:28.970 --> 01:08:34.350
I love that stuff. And I just love drawing in
01:08:34.350 --> 01:08:38.329
that style as well. So, yeah, not much of a history
01:08:38.329 --> 01:08:43.649
there, I'm afraid. But, yeah, that's me. Pictures
01:08:43.649 --> 01:08:48.729
all the way. All right, Mr. Mark. Last time we
01:08:48.729 --> 01:08:54.250
talked, you asked me to draw a cartoon. You told
01:08:54.250 --> 01:08:57.390
me I have to find my voice and it came to drawing.
01:08:57.789 --> 01:09:01.770
And then once you saw my sketches after a week
01:09:01.770 --> 01:09:05.109
or so, you found me drawing an enemy and you
01:09:05.109 --> 01:09:09.329
were so disappointed for some reason. Yes. Yes,
01:09:09.390 --> 01:09:16.340
I was. Right. Okay. We're going there. Okay.
01:09:17.779 --> 01:09:25.819
Okay. This might be hugely unpopular, but I'm
01:09:25.819 --> 01:09:30.600
standing by this. I think anime is the weakest
01:09:30.600 --> 01:09:38.760
end of animation. No! Yeah. Controversial, perhaps?
01:09:39.239 --> 01:09:45.199
But hear me out. Hear me out. That's not to say
01:09:45.199 --> 01:09:47.500
there isn't good anime out there. There are some
01:09:47.500 --> 01:09:51.000
stunning examples of the anime style. I think
01:09:51.000 --> 01:09:56.560
of people like Miyazaki. But the vast majority
01:09:56.560 --> 01:10:01.680
of anime is really very, very low -end animation.
01:10:01.939 --> 01:10:08.609
And that's because it's fast turnover. High turnover
01:10:08.609 --> 01:10:11.470
stuff. And so it's produced exceptionally quickly,
01:10:11.609 --> 01:10:15.949
and it's produced in masses, in huge volumes.
01:10:16.529 --> 01:10:20.989
And as a result, the animation itself is basic.
01:10:21.210 --> 01:10:26.250
I mean, it's rudimentary. I'm talking about the
01:10:26.250 --> 01:10:30.710
average anime show out there at the moment. I
01:10:30.710 --> 01:10:34.470
mean, it is a genre, so it has a very distinct
01:10:34.470 --> 01:10:36.590
set of characteristics. It's got a certain look.
01:10:36.920 --> 01:10:39.800
It's got a certain feel. That's fine. I don't
01:10:39.800 --> 01:10:42.699
have a problem with genre. But I just think that
01:10:42.699 --> 01:10:49.319
it's kind of where you maybe start with animation.
01:10:50.479 --> 01:10:53.439
Can I say it's like the pop music of animation?
01:10:55.079 --> 01:11:01.479
It's quite one -dimensional. I find it one -dimensional.
01:11:03.520 --> 01:11:08.020
There are some great examples. But the thing
01:11:08.020 --> 01:11:12.939
is, though, that it's a Japanese genre. We're
01:11:12.939 --> 01:11:17.979
not Japanese. Our culture, our society, we're
01:11:17.979 --> 01:11:23.300
so different. And it offends me that so many
01:11:23.300 --> 01:11:27.520
people want to emulate a culture which isn't
01:11:27.520 --> 01:11:31.760
theirs. Why not embrace your own culture? If
01:11:31.760 --> 01:11:35.329
you're African, tell African stories. If you're
01:11:35.329 --> 01:11:38.850
Australian, tell Australian stories. At the moment,
01:11:38.890 --> 01:11:42.590
you try and be something that you're not. It's
01:11:42.590 --> 01:11:49.789
hollow. And it's not authentic. And it's obvious
01:11:49.789 --> 01:11:53.810
that it's not authentic. And it has no weight.
01:11:53.829 --> 01:11:57.109
It has no power. I'll bet you that you don't
01:11:57.109 --> 01:11:59.090
have a bunch of Japanese kids sitting in Japan
01:11:59.090 --> 01:12:01.649
right now drawing African kids. You know what
01:12:01.649 --> 01:12:04.340
I mean? They're not... They're not doing African
01:12:04.340 --> 01:12:06.819
stories in Japan. They're doing Japanese stories.
01:12:07.140 --> 01:12:11.640
That's how it should be. We're African. Let's
01:12:11.640 --> 01:12:15.119
tell our own stories. That should be our voice.
01:12:15.220 --> 01:12:19.079
We should be doing stuff that's authentic. So,
01:12:19.100 --> 01:12:25.739
yeah. That's my take on anime. Mr. Mark, one
01:12:25.739 --> 01:12:28.779
last thing for me. You kind of surprised me last
01:12:28.779 --> 01:12:31.000
time when you told me like you have like a 1000
01:12:31.000 --> 01:12:36.800
stack of VHS movies and you watch them like with
01:12:36.800 --> 01:12:39.939
your wife most of the time and you have like
01:12:39.939 --> 01:12:45.760
a 100 gigabytes of movies and TV series is like
01:12:45.760 --> 01:12:50.520
a massive collection. Make that terabytes. That's
01:12:50.520 --> 01:12:54.960
terabytes. That's not gigabytes. No, well, you
01:12:54.960 --> 01:12:58.380
know, I said earlier, no, I love movies. My wife
01:12:58.380 --> 01:13:02.159
as well, also a huge movie fan. You know, when
01:13:02.159 --> 01:13:04.300
we met, that was one of the first things we discovered
01:13:04.300 --> 01:13:06.539
about each other was how much we both love movies.
01:13:07.319 --> 01:13:10.659
And, you know, we were interested in movies for
01:13:10.659 --> 01:13:14.159
different reasons as well. So, you know, she
01:13:14.159 --> 01:13:16.739
introduced me to a whole sort of end of movies
01:13:16.739 --> 01:13:20.409
that I'd never encountered. I hopefully was able
01:13:20.409 --> 01:13:23.630
to do the same. Yeah, I know. I mean, that's
01:13:23.630 --> 01:13:25.329
one of the things we love to do together is just
01:13:25.329 --> 01:13:31.829
watch movies and series. She was heavily involved
01:13:31.829 --> 01:13:33.810
in the animation industry, which is actually
01:13:33.810 --> 01:13:39.729
how we met. She had a production company at some
01:13:39.729 --> 01:13:42.149
point. When I met her, she was managing an animation
01:13:42.149 --> 01:13:48.239
studio. And yeah, no, we both love that stuff.
01:13:48.439 --> 01:13:52.199
And we're both collectors as well. I mean, I've
01:13:52.199 --> 01:13:54.579
been collecting books and music most of my life.
01:13:55.380 --> 01:13:58.060
My wife has been collecting movies and books
01:13:58.060 --> 01:14:03.140
most of her life. And so, yeah, together we have
01:14:03.140 --> 01:14:08.880
this archive, I guess. So now I just have to
01:14:08.880 --> 01:14:13.060
ask, what's the pop music of movies? The pop
01:14:13.060 --> 01:14:16.260
music of movies? Yeah, what is that? What genre
01:14:16.260 --> 01:14:30.460
is that? Marvel and DC. No! Yes! I'm sorry. I
01:14:30.460 --> 01:14:33.840
don't think you're going to invite me back onto
01:14:33.840 --> 01:14:37.000
the show. Oh, no, you're definitely coming back.
01:14:39.760 --> 01:14:43.699
Our audience loves anyone that disagrees with
01:14:43.699 --> 01:14:54.739
us. I'm sorry if that afflicts you. No, no, no.
01:14:55.600 --> 01:14:59.119
They'll love this because they disagree with
01:14:59.119 --> 01:15:02.739
us a lot, but they never get a chance to debate
01:15:02.739 --> 01:15:08.979
it. So they'll probably love you right now. So
01:15:08.979 --> 01:15:12.949
I'm representing. Another question that we have
01:15:12.949 --> 01:15:14.810
to ask, like what kind of movies do you like?
01:15:16.350 --> 01:15:22.449
Oh, I like a lot of different kinds of movies,
01:15:22.510 --> 01:15:25.090
but I think what I look for, I don't really go
01:15:25.090 --> 01:15:28.149
for a particular genre or a particular type of
01:15:28.149 --> 01:15:31.409
movie, but what I do look for in movies is, you
01:15:31.409 --> 01:15:35.369
know, good writing, you know, intelligent scripts,
01:15:35.689 --> 01:15:39.170
good character building, character development,
01:15:39.390 --> 01:15:43.960
good world building. Obviously, good cinematography,
01:15:44.079 --> 01:15:48.039
great editing. I don't really mind the genre
01:15:48.039 --> 01:15:53.000
so much if it's a well -made film. And when I
01:15:53.000 --> 01:15:55.140
say well -made, I mean something that meets my
01:15:55.140 --> 01:16:01.359
standards. Yeah, and my taste. Again, it's a
01:16:01.359 --> 01:16:03.439
personal thing. I'm not saying that I'm, you
01:16:03.439 --> 01:16:06.119
know, I'm not saying I'm the arbiter of taste.
01:16:06.479 --> 01:16:09.779
I'm not, you know. But I do look for just like
01:16:09.779 --> 01:16:12.840
quality in filmmaking. And that can be found,
01:16:12.960 --> 01:16:15.380
I mean, there are even some, you know, some couple
01:16:15.380 --> 01:16:19.380
of decent, you know, like Marvel movies. Yes,
01:16:19.380 --> 01:16:24.159
which ones? Which ones? What was that one with
01:16:24.159 --> 01:16:28.449
Heath Ledger, The Dark Knight? That one is, I
01:16:28.449 --> 01:16:30.369
think that's the best one. Yeah, without a doubt.
01:16:30.649 --> 01:16:33.850
Without a doubt. See, you see now, there it is.
01:16:33.869 --> 01:16:37.770
That's a stunningly well -made movie. It's well
01:16:37.770 --> 01:16:41.310
-written. Do you have like... Sorry, yeah, carry
01:16:41.310 --> 01:16:44.689
on. Okay, do you have like any favorite writers
01:16:44.689 --> 01:16:52.109
or actors, directors? Oh, yes. Mostly, I guess
01:16:52.109 --> 01:16:56.600
directors, I think. Sometimes I'm not always
01:16:56.600 --> 01:17:00.439
familiar with the writers, but I would say directors,
01:17:00.619 --> 01:17:03.100
well, the one that comes to mind straight away
01:17:03.100 --> 01:17:08.100
is Stanley Kubrick. He was an American director
01:17:08.100 --> 01:17:12.760
who moved to England quite early in his career
01:17:12.760 --> 01:17:15.199
because he wasn't able to make the movies he
01:17:15.199 --> 01:17:18.039
wanted to make in America because the studios
01:17:18.039 --> 01:17:20.619
exercised too much control and he wanted to be
01:17:20.619 --> 01:17:22.819
an independent filmmaker. So he moved to England.
01:17:25.039 --> 01:17:28.340
I would have been in the 1960s. I think he would
01:17:28.340 --> 01:17:31.439
have moved. And he was making movies up until
01:17:31.439 --> 01:17:35.720
the, into the 1990s. He wasn't the most prolific
01:17:35.720 --> 01:17:39.600
director, but see, I mean, he would, but he would
01:17:39.600 --> 01:17:43.199
make a film every few years and all of them are
01:17:43.199 --> 01:17:47.100
stunningly well made. I don't know if you're
01:17:47.100 --> 01:17:49.279
familiar with a horror movie called The Shining.
01:17:50.640 --> 01:17:53.199
That was one of his, yeah, that was one of his.
01:17:54.759 --> 01:17:59.659
He did a couple of science fiction films. He
01:17:59.659 --> 01:18:04.899
did a couple of war movies. He didn't really
01:18:04.899 --> 01:18:07.659
restrict himself to a particular genre. He would
01:18:07.659 --> 01:18:10.500
maybe be introduced to a book that he was interested
01:18:10.500 --> 01:18:13.359
in, and he would develop it into a screenplay
01:18:13.359 --> 01:18:18.960
and make a movie. So, yeah, I really like his
01:18:18.960 --> 01:18:21.770
work. I think he's probably my favorite director.
01:18:21.810 --> 01:18:24.010
I would rate him over pretty much every other
01:18:24.010 --> 01:18:29.329
director. But there are some other stunning directors
01:18:29.329 --> 01:18:34.470
as well. Some of the Italian directors. There's
01:18:34.470 --> 01:18:39.569
a guy called Federico Fellini. Very, very different
01:18:39.569 --> 01:18:44.029
kind of film. Interesting. Very interesting.
01:18:46.339 --> 01:18:51.520
Quite a unique voice in movie directing. He's
01:18:51.520 --> 01:18:56.020
what you'd call an auteur director. He doesn't
01:18:56.020 --> 01:19:00.699
conform to a style. His work is a style. I guess
01:19:00.699 --> 01:19:04.539
the same is true of Kubrick as well. A couple
01:19:04.539 --> 01:19:07.220
of American directors. There's one, a guy called
01:19:07.220 --> 01:19:09.159
Jim Jarmusch, who's an independent director.
01:19:10.119 --> 01:19:16.729
I really enjoy his work. Oh, there are so many.
01:19:18.970 --> 01:19:22.869
I know it's not cool to say it anymore, but I
01:19:22.869 --> 01:19:28.310
really enjoyed Woody Allen's films. You're not
01:19:28.310 --> 01:19:30.369
allowed to say that anymore because of all the
01:19:30.369 --> 01:19:33.109
sex scandals around him, which is unfortunate.
01:19:33.970 --> 01:19:38.189
But the films were good. The movies were great.
01:19:38.930 --> 01:19:41.869
I tend to separate the art from the artist as
01:19:41.869 --> 01:19:48.199
far as I can. I try to. Yeah. You know? So I
01:19:48.199 --> 01:19:52.020
just look at his movies just as movies, and yeah,
01:19:52.060 --> 01:19:55.520
I enjoy them. I probably find them harder to
01:19:55.520 --> 01:19:59.060
watch nowadays than I used to. Yeah, what about
01:19:59.060 --> 01:20:06.500
any current guys? Gosh, who are the current directors?
01:20:07.380 --> 01:20:12.539
Oh, do you like Senna? Ryan Coogler is... Oh,
01:20:12.659 --> 01:20:20.220
right. I haven't actually seen that, no. I actually
01:20:20.220 --> 01:20:23.359
have a copy of, I do have a copy of the film
01:20:23.359 --> 01:20:26.520
that he made as a student, actually, which is
01:20:26.520 --> 01:20:33.640
quite interesting. Which one is that? I can't
01:20:33.640 --> 01:20:36.960
remember the title offhand. It's like a 15 -minute
01:20:36.960 --> 01:20:40.590
movie. Is it Something Station? Is it that? I
01:20:40.590 --> 01:20:46.810
don't think so. I'd have to look for it. I can't
01:20:46.810 --> 01:20:49.789
remember the title. Wiley was a student. I think
01:20:49.789 --> 01:20:53.170
it was his graduating film. It's a 15 -minute
01:20:53.170 --> 01:20:56.250
film. And it's about the relationship between...
01:20:56.250 --> 01:21:01.670
Yeah, yeah. No, no, it wasn't. No, it's a tiny
01:21:01.670 --> 01:21:05.699
little student project. It's quite interesting
01:21:05.699 --> 01:21:08.739
to look at that and to then go and see. Is that
01:21:08.739 --> 01:21:15.479
the name? I don't know. I can't remember the
01:21:15.479 --> 01:21:24.960
title. Hold on. What else? Okay. Sure. I'm just
01:21:24.960 --> 01:21:27.600
trying to think who else. Chris Nolan. Chris
01:21:27.600 --> 01:21:34.239
Nolan. Chris Nolan. I have a kind of a. No. I
01:21:34.239 --> 01:21:39.340
have mixed feelings about Chris Nolan. I mean,
01:21:39.420 --> 01:21:41.680
look, as I say, Dark Knight I thought was stunning.
01:21:42.579 --> 01:21:48.300
That was him, right? Yeah. Dunkirk? I haven't
01:21:48.300 --> 01:21:50.819
actually seen Dunkirk. I would like to see that,
01:21:50.899 --> 01:21:54.279
actually, because I have seen clips from it,
01:21:54.319 --> 01:21:57.520
and I do really like the cinematographer on that.
01:21:58.260 --> 01:22:02.779
Yeah, great shots. Yeah, yeah. I mean, oh, God,
01:22:02.819 --> 01:22:06.199
what's his name? My memory's gone. My memory's
01:22:06.199 --> 01:22:11.579
deserting me at the moment. But, I mean, the
01:22:11.579 --> 01:22:13.760
clips that I've seen from Dunkirk look absolutely
01:22:13.760 --> 01:22:16.319
stunning. And I would like to actually see the
01:22:16.319 --> 01:22:21.819
film. But I... The Ryan Coogler movie is called
01:22:21.819 --> 01:22:27.720
Fig. Fig. F -I -G. Okay. That's what we got.
01:22:27.880 --> 01:22:31.600
It doesn't sound familiar. It could be. It doesn't
01:22:31.600 --> 01:22:38.260
ring a bell, but... Yeah. Okay, so continue with
01:22:38.260 --> 01:22:41.720
Chris Nolan. Yes, Chris Nolan. As I say, I have
01:22:41.720 --> 01:22:44.359
mixed feelings about Chris Nolan. I think he's
01:22:44.359 --> 01:22:47.180
a very, he's an intelligent filmmaker. There's
01:22:47.180 --> 01:22:50.640
no doubt. And he knows what he's doing. But I
01:22:50.640 --> 01:22:52.479
think sometimes he tries to get a little bit
01:22:52.479 --> 01:22:56.579
too tricksy with his scripts. I think he's trying
01:22:56.579 --> 01:23:01.659
to maybe fool his audience too often. And kind
01:23:01.659 --> 01:23:03.600
of like his movies kind of say, look how clever
01:23:03.600 --> 01:23:06.720
I am. I get a feeling of that from him sometimes.
01:23:06.880 --> 01:23:12.279
Like watching Tenet and Inception. I thought,
01:23:12.279 --> 01:23:16.079
yeah, okay, yeah, be less tricksy, Chris. You
01:23:16.079 --> 01:23:20.020
know, like you don't have to impress us. We know
01:23:20.020 --> 01:23:25.859
you're a good filmmaker. And, I mean, to be honest,
01:23:25.899 --> 01:23:28.520
I found Tenet quite incoherent. I had to kind
01:23:28.520 --> 01:23:31.319
of like watch it three times to piece it all
01:23:31.319 --> 01:23:33.119
together. And I don't know if I want to work
01:23:33.119 --> 01:23:37.979
that hard. Did you end up like getting it? Like,
01:23:38.060 --> 01:23:42.060
oh. Yeah, I kind of got it, but it's kind of
01:23:42.060 --> 01:23:44.859
those, you know, the problem I had was it's like
01:23:44.859 --> 01:23:47.100
you get it, but then it's quite underwhelming
01:23:47.100 --> 01:23:50.340
because, okay, I get it, but so what? You know,
01:23:50.380 --> 01:23:54.090
was it worth the effort? And I don't think it
01:23:54.090 --> 01:23:57.949
was. I think it was more interesting when I hadn't
01:23:57.949 --> 01:24:03.130
got it. You know what I mean? Oh, yeah. I mean,
01:24:03.130 --> 01:24:06.890
I had the same thing with, what's the one with
01:24:06.890 --> 01:24:08.869
the guy with all the tattoos on his body that
01:24:08.869 --> 01:24:15.989
goes backwards? Director? No, the Chris Nolan
01:24:15.989 --> 01:24:20.750
film. Early one. Oh, again, my memory's gone.
01:24:20.789 --> 01:24:28.859
Early one. Tattoos? The guy who's trying to piece
01:24:28.859 --> 01:24:35.180
together. Is that Inception? No, before Inception.
01:24:35.319 --> 01:24:37.180
The character doesn't have short -term memory.
01:24:37.319 --> 01:24:39.100
He doesn't have memory. He doesn't have long
01:24:39.100 --> 01:24:42.239
-term memory. Oh, Memento. Memento. Memento.
01:24:43.020 --> 01:24:45.960
That's the one, yeah. You see, now again, Memento
01:24:45.960 --> 01:24:50.489
is, I mean, it's interesting until you... understand
01:24:50.489 --> 01:24:52.229
what's going on. And then it's just kind of like,
01:24:52.310 --> 01:24:57.109
oh, okay. So, yeah. The mystery was more interesting
01:24:57.109 --> 01:24:59.609
than the resolution. I think that's the problem
01:24:59.609 --> 01:25:02.449
I think I have with a lot of Chris Nolan films.
01:25:03.710 --> 01:25:10.090
But if he just directs a straight story... Go
01:25:10.090 --> 01:25:12.970
ahead. If he just directs a straight story, I
01:25:12.970 --> 01:25:17.529
think the films are better. So, yeah, stop trying
01:25:17.529 --> 01:25:20.100
to trick us, Chris. Yeah, just get to it. Yeah.
01:25:21.039 --> 01:25:24.260
Another actually current director that I really,
01:25:24.300 --> 01:25:26.699
really do appreciate is a guy called Denis Villeneuve.
01:25:27.460 --> 01:25:30.180
He's a Canadian director. Oh, Dune. That's Dune.
01:25:30.180 --> 01:25:35.579
Yes. Yes. Yes. That was, yes. Yeah. It does scale.
01:25:35.659 --> 01:25:39.380
I like his scale. Yeah. And I don't know if you
01:25:39.380 --> 01:25:41.800
guys also watched a movie of his called Arrival.
01:25:43.739 --> 01:25:47.680
Stunning movie. How was Dune? Oh, I loved it,
01:25:47.699 --> 01:25:50.500
Dune. I loved it. Absolutely. Okay, it also happens
01:25:50.500 --> 01:25:53.840
to be one of my favorite books of all time. We're
01:25:53.840 --> 01:25:57.779
going to watch it. Arrived. Yeah, you must. Yeah,
01:25:57.800 --> 01:26:05.100
more homework. No, Dune is one of my favorite
01:26:05.100 --> 01:26:08.739
book series of all time. I love those books.
01:26:09.060 --> 01:26:14.300
Oh, yes. Several times. Okay. There are six books
01:26:14.300 --> 01:26:21.420
in the series. How many movies? Well, the two
01:26:21.420 --> 01:26:24.060
movies that have been released so far have only
01:26:24.060 --> 01:26:27.680
covered the first book. I'm hoping that he's
01:26:27.680 --> 01:26:31.859
going to carry on and make more because I want
01:26:31.859 --> 01:26:34.579
to see more of those movies. I really do. Before
01:26:34.579 --> 01:26:39.619
I die, I want to see them. Is there really? Yeah.
01:26:39.960 --> 01:26:43.279
On the same day as Avengers. You might not be
01:26:43.279 --> 01:26:46.829
interested in Avengers. No, no, no. Screw the
01:26:46.829 --> 01:26:54.430
Avengers film. No. No. You have to watch both
01:26:54.430 --> 01:26:57.470
of them. What was the marketing thing? Avengers
01:26:57.470 --> 01:27:01.350
Doomsday now instead of Doomsday. Oh, you're
01:27:01.350 --> 01:27:08.989
giving me homework now. Yeah. Okay. I'll make
01:27:08.989 --> 01:27:11.329
the effort. I won't promise to watch it, but
01:27:11.329 --> 01:27:16.109
I'll make the effort. Yeah, but that would be
01:27:16.109 --> 01:27:21.329
viable. I wasn't aware. I wasn't aware that there
01:27:21.329 --> 01:27:23.029
was another Dune movie about to be released.
01:27:23.369 --> 01:27:26.550
I know that he was working on developing it.
01:27:26.590 --> 01:27:30.609
I wasn't aware that it was in production. It's
01:27:30.609 --> 01:27:33.750
already done. It's already done. Really? Oh,
01:27:33.829 --> 01:27:36.810
wow. Yeah. Gosh. You've made an old man very
01:27:36.810 --> 01:27:42.760
happy, by the way. I know, I'm looking forward
01:27:42.760 --> 01:27:43.960
to that. Yeah, there's a bunch of movies coming
01:27:43.960 --> 01:27:47.640
out this year. Chris Nolan is going to make The
01:27:47.640 --> 01:27:50.020
Odyssey. So hopefully that's straightforward.
01:27:50.960 --> 01:27:55.100
Okay. Yeah. Okay. Okay, you don't sound enthused.
01:27:55.279 --> 01:27:58.380
You do not sound enthused. No, no, I'm interested.
01:27:58.659 --> 01:28:02.039
I'm interested. Hopefully he doesn't make Odysseus,
01:28:02.039 --> 01:28:06.300
you know, travel through time or something. Well,
01:28:06.579 --> 01:28:12.229
yeah, let's see. He might. He's capable of doing
01:28:12.229 --> 01:28:16.590
that. Yeah, but it would be unnecessary. It's
01:28:16.590 --> 01:28:19.470
also interesting what you said about the mystery
01:28:19.470 --> 01:28:24.609
being more interesting than the actual conclusion.
01:28:25.109 --> 01:28:29.029
I feel like that's why a lot of artists in general
01:28:29.029 --> 01:28:31.729
just don't end up explaining their art. They
01:28:31.729 --> 01:28:33.729
just leave it like that. And it's like, see it
01:28:33.729 --> 01:28:37.550
how you want to see it. Yeah. That's one of the
01:28:37.550 --> 01:28:39.670
things I appreciate about Stanley Kubrick very
01:28:39.670 --> 01:28:43.630
often. I mean, probably one of the most famous
01:28:43.630 --> 01:28:45.350
science fiction films of all time is something
01:28:45.350 --> 01:28:48.750
called 2001, The Space Odyssey, which was a Kubrick
01:28:48.750 --> 01:28:51.930
film. It was made in 1960. I think it came out
01:28:51.930 --> 01:28:56.310
in 1968. That inspired James Cameron. That's
01:28:56.310 --> 01:29:01.609
the movie that he talks about. Yes, yes. It's
01:29:01.609 --> 01:29:05.409
an absolute milestone of cinema. But it's very
01:29:05.409 --> 01:29:08.529
ambiguous. At the time of its release, it caused
01:29:08.529 --> 01:29:12.050
huge controversy because it didn't explain itself.
01:29:12.909 --> 01:29:15.909
And in fact, the script, the dialogue doesn't
01:29:15.909 --> 01:29:18.789
even tell the story. The entire story is in the
01:29:18.789 --> 01:29:22.609
pictures. There are one or two passages of dialogue
01:29:22.609 --> 01:29:26.289
which help advance the plot and tell a little
01:29:26.289 --> 01:29:30.420
bit of story. But mostly... the movie is all
01:29:30.420 --> 01:29:32.979
in the pictures. The actual script, the written
01:29:32.979 --> 01:29:37.779
dialogue, is only a few pages. But it's an over
01:29:37.779 --> 01:29:42.819
two hours long movie. It's an amazing piece of
01:29:42.819 --> 01:29:47.640
filmmaking. So do you have any series or TV shows
01:29:47.640 --> 01:29:51.819
that you like? Yes. Well, I've actually just
01:29:51.819 --> 01:29:56.600
finished watching the new series of Drive to
01:29:56.600 --> 01:29:59.510
Survive. which is a Netflix documentary about
01:29:59.510 --> 01:30:05.210
Formula One racing. They've just put out season
01:30:05.210 --> 01:30:08.390
eight of that. So we've just, in fact, we watched
01:30:08.390 --> 01:30:10.930
the last episode of that last night. And I'm
01:30:10.930 --> 01:30:17.090
going to watch the race later today. Hey, the
01:30:17.090 --> 01:30:24.149
comments are going to hate that. I really, of
01:30:24.149 --> 01:30:27.989
course, I enjoyed Squid Game. Who didn't? Season
01:30:27.989 --> 01:30:32.470
one. The first one, right? Yeah. Yeah, I agree.
01:30:32.550 --> 01:30:37.909
I think it did. I think it suffered. It didn't
01:30:37.909 --> 01:30:41.090
resolve very well. It's too much. Just end it.
01:30:41.869 --> 01:30:43.949
I think they could have actually just left it
01:30:43.949 --> 01:30:45.810
at the end of season one. They should have actually
01:30:45.810 --> 01:30:48.710
just left it at the end of season one. Because
01:30:48.710 --> 01:30:56.659
again, you don't need everything explained. That's
01:30:56.659 --> 01:31:03.000
what Chris Nolan would say. Yeah. That's what
01:31:03.000 --> 01:31:04.939
he would tell you. That's what he would tell
01:31:04.939 --> 01:31:15.800
you. You got me. Yeah. Okay. I think that's where
01:31:15.800 --> 01:31:18.819
we're going to end it. Oh, you want to talk?
01:31:20.899 --> 01:31:28.029
Yo, Mr. Mark. Yo. Mr. Mark, there was this quote
01:31:28.029 --> 01:31:30.930
that you told me that actually, like, I think
01:31:30.930 --> 01:31:34.430
it's one of the greatest quotes that I've ever
01:31:34.430 --> 01:31:37.449
heard in my life. You said, like, I've been learning
01:31:37.449 --> 01:31:41.010
to draw for about more than 60 years. And can
01:31:41.010 --> 01:31:44.810
you please elaborate on it, on what you mean
01:31:44.810 --> 01:31:47.949
by that? Like, are you constantly a curious person?
01:31:47.989 --> 01:31:51.390
Are you constantly learning as you go? Because
01:31:51.390 --> 01:31:53.189
you told me, like, your life is like a hobby,
01:31:53.289 --> 01:32:00.359
something like that. Sorry, what did I say? I
01:32:00.359 --> 01:32:04.119
don't remember the quote. You said you've been
01:32:04.119 --> 01:32:08.220
learning for six years straight on drawing, doing
01:32:08.220 --> 01:32:10.739
fine arts, especially in terms of your hobbies.
01:32:12.119 --> 01:32:21.079
Yeah. I like to think I'm still learning. I don't
01:32:21.079 --> 01:32:23.020
think I ever want to get to the point where I
01:32:23.020 --> 01:32:27.770
shut my mind down. and adopt an attitude where
01:32:27.770 --> 01:32:30.210
no one can tell me anything anymore. I don't
01:32:30.210 --> 01:32:32.829
want to be there. There's always something new
01:32:32.829 --> 01:32:37.010
to learn, and I want to be open to that. I want
01:32:37.010 --> 01:32:41.029
to learn as much as possible. I have questions,
01:32:41.029 --> 01:32:46.270
and I want answers. And so, yeah, stay curious.
01:32:46.649 --> 01:32:52.510
Question everything. That's, yeah, that's my
01:32:52.510 --> 01:32:56.949
mission. is to stay curious and hope I succeed.
01:32:59.050 --> 01:33:05.869
All right, then. Thanks. No, thank you. Yeah,
01:33:05.970 --> 01:33:08.050
I think that's where we're going to end it. Unless
01:33:08.050 --> 01:33:12.189
you have anything you want to say. No, I think
01:33:12.189 --> 01:33:15.390
that's a good place to wrap it up for now. Okay.
01:33:17.170 --> 01:33:20.949
Mr. Mark, thank you for joining. Thank you for
01:33:20.949 --> 01:33:22.250
having this conversation with us. Thank you for
01:33:22.250 --> 01:33:27.050
your time. It's been a pleasure. Thank you for
01:33:27.050 --> 01:33:31.789
giving me the opportunity to ramble on. This
01:33:31.789 --> 01:33:35.729
was fun. We'll definitely have you back after
01:33:35.729 --> 01:33:40.970
the audience takes your side on every single
01:33:40.970 --> 01:33:47.800
thing. Well, let's hope you don't lose all your
01:33:47.800 --> 01:33:53.720
subscribers after this one. Yeah, the comments
01:33:53.720 --> 01:33:55.500
are probably going to be like, see, we told you
01:33:55.500 --> 01:34:01.100
you guys don't make sense. No, thank you, guys.
01:34:01.140 --> 01:34:04.939
It's been a pleasure. It really has been. Okay.
01:34:07.659 --> 01:34:09.779
Yeah, look forward to it.