WEBVTT
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Hello there.
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My name is Tom Lyne, and this is an act of listening.
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Good afternoon.
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Good afternoon, Tom Lyne.
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I'd like to welcome Martin Green to the studio today.
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He's a music producer, composer, musician extraordinaire.
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Thank you very much for having me.
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It's great to be here in your studio in beautiful Midlothian.
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Today we're going to explore a piece of music from my surrounded by Midlothian project.
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An album called Sonnables 2, and this piece is known as Underground.
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So we're going to descend into the depths of the local Tynewater Valley.
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Brilliant.
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So if we start with the title, it's called Underground.
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Why is that?
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It's called Underground because uh it started with a recording of an underground stream uh spring that I found on one of my quests over by Vogri Country Park.
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I was in Tyne Valley and it was just at the side of a a trail.
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I heard a little bit of water and I looked down, and there's a puddle about half a meter across and the water was just burbling up from the ground underneath.
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So of course, first thing you do is sit down with your mics and and a video camera and and record that.
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So that provided the basis for the beginning of the song.
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It's a beautiful, it's a segment of a much longer recording of a a spring.
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I keep forgetting the word for spring.
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But what I found really interesting about it was the way that the drops and the burbals all kind of had tone quality to them.
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So are you going out walking in the countryside with your equipment, actively seeking out things that make interesting sounds?
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Is that is that where you start?
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I sort of have a I put together a hit list of places that I would like to go, things I sort of hope to capture.
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I did a whole series sort of around Tyn Valley and the burn that's down there, and then there's also Vogarry Country Park and some nice forests and lots of wildlife.
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So you're looking for things to actively make into pieces of music later on.
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Is that part of your thinking whilst you're recording these environmental sounds?
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I don't always think along that lines.
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More it's about capturing good environmental sounds because I want to create um libraries of sound effects.
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Okay.
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And so that's the first motive for recording this stuff.
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It was things that I was using in bits of film or video.
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Um and I have uh since since I was a kid, I have a I've always loved recording things and playing around with cassette tapes and um four-track recorders and then onto computers when the time came.
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So um I just love recording things and collecting sounds.
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I've an extensive library of a lot of natural stuff.
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Because we live in a beautiful environment, this is a great place to go and capture sounds.
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Okay, and so some of those work their way into kind of artistic projects like this, and some of them just become a repository of environmental sounds that um and so then why this one to base a piece of music on?
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Okay.
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Um in this case, that little bit of burn that we heard burbling away, um it contains rhythm and tone and texture and all these sort of things.
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I'll play a little bit and just sort of let you uh sink into the the joy of a burn.
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It's not evident at first, but there's pitch.
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So your composers here is is actually hearing notes in that.
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Uh uh when you close your eyes and sort of really sink into it, I always use expressions like sink into it.
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You sort of have to, it's like meditation.
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You just sort of let that sample go through your head.
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But yeah, you start hearing all the different drops, and the the different size of the drop makes a different pitched.
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Whatever you want to call it.
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Um and it's kind of semi-random because there's a stream of water shooting out of the ground and it's sort of bubbling around in the water next to it.
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After a while you start noticing patterns in it, but they're not really very clear.
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But definitely there's all the different pitches and the the top end, the treble of it, and the the darker bottom end of it.
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And it's sort of like this tiny little symphony goes on in there.
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Fascinating.
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So, how how do you how do you then move forward into turning that sound into a piece of music?
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Yeah, there's a bit of a leap.
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Um so I started playing around with this idea of uh I liked the the rhythm and the tones that were in there, and so through a process of compressing an EQ of a sample, um you you can then sort of highlight those bits, and then you can extract MIDI data from it.
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Okay, so and and MIDI is a way of telling a computer which note to play for how long.
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Yeah, as opposed to the audio side, which is the voice of recording or the actual recording of the burn, turning it into MIDI, it is just a numerical data representation of a series of pitches and velocities.
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And then I started playing with that, extracting more and more meaning from it.
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You know, with a sound like this, in the middle.
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So this is very esoteric, but in the middle of that sound is a lot of white noise, and like wind or like rain or a river.
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It has sort of this noise that's made up of a bazillion little drops or sounds, and they all mesh together to sort of make a gray sound.
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It's like the noise we used to have on televisions when you put a static on a television.
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Okay.
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It's just like a lot of points, there's nothing in the specific, and it's called white noise because it just makes everything else disappear.
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So you have to sort of carve out that bit of the.
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Okay, so when you first translate an audio sample into MIDI data, you end up with something that's far too complex to hear anything in.
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Yeah.
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I have an example here of a of a different thing that I'm working on just right at the moment, which it's a rainstorm.
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Brilliant, I feel like being punched by that pro Stravinsky though.
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Brilliant.
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Oh, I'm so sorry.
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So this is rain on a conservatory room.
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Okay.
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And you can almost hear the individual rain drops.
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But I can also hear what you're saying.
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That there's there's almost every single note at once there.
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That's exactly what white noise is, it's every single note at once.
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That's why they use it for testing PAs and checking room acoustics and things like that.
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Because it it gives you a sweep of the full range of harmonic content.
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Um, so then I you sort of have to carve the sound a little bit and start hiling the important thing.
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And then you get this.
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Which this is really.
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And it's quite random, and the rhythm is uncontrolled, and the pitches are are completely across the whole spectrum.
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So that's kind of where it starts from.
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Okay.
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It's not terribly musical at that point.
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However, it does it does have features, and there's different ways you can go about looking for those features.
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Um, and with the stream, going back to the stream piece, um, I returned to this recording over and over again.
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And just listen for the notes that really sort of stick out to me, and then line that up with the MIDI data that I'm sort of editing.
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Okay, so you're you're kind of going through and taking out, deleting those notes that you don't want.
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Okay.
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That's really it's that's the process, is r eliminating the things that are unnecessary.
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Okay.
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And then you feed that the MIDI data.
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To bring it back.
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In into a in this instance, into a string sample?
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Uh it's on several channels of string samples.
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And uh in a very ad hoc orchestral kind of way, there's a violin one, violin two, some violas, and some cellos and bases.
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Is the idea.
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Okay, so you're kind of streaming out that very complex data into a few manageable parts.
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Yes.
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You can almost hear it lining up.
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Interesting.
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And and without the stream or knowing anything about the compositional process, i I mean, it sounds very much to my ear like contemporary classical orchestral music, um, especially, you know, kind of post-World War II music where people were really interested in trying to move away from traditional forms of melody or having this very kind of centered home key.
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Yeah.
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And when I listened to this the first time, uh before I came to do this session, I had assumed you had sat there with a a pencil and a piece of manuscript and and written this out, which as a composer you're more than than capable of doing, but you've chosen not to do that.
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No.
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Um it was more interesting to look for the the bits that stuck out, the the shiny bits, let's call it.
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Um the things that I'm always attracted to in music.
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Uh which admittedly have a particular tonality to them because that's what I'm tuned into.
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That's like any composer, you know.
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You listen to any of the people you've mentioned, and their music represents their thinking.
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So like this, me selecting notes or eliminating notes I don't want to, I'm left with notes that I like, which kind of start after a while you start recognizing your own tonality, style.
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Okay, so a different composer might have taken that MIDI file and chosen different notes.
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Totally.
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Okay.
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No two would have been the same.
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And if I did it again with the same thing, it would be different.
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Okay.
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Um, though I've heard this one enough times that I'd probably be pulled back in that same direction again just because the good old days.
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And it's part of the the appeal for you of this process that you are pushed away from repeating yourself as a composer because you've given yourself over to chance to a certain extent.
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I think introducing chance and randomness in the like I I I do love uh Stockhausen and um I can't think of all the names because I'm terrible with names, but you know, all these sort of but there's a sort of Schoenberg, you know, that there's some there's something, and and it's not my area of expertise, but you know, something that reminds me of Ligety and Schoenberg and um Yeah.
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So yeah.
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They they introduce these processes and they they also have thinking that challenges sort of convention.
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Um so they're looking for other ways of of achieving some sort of artistic composition and construction and experimenting with processes.
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Um and I guess I am experimenting with processes, but I'm not like directly I will do this process and we'll transl uh we will transpose the meaning of a JPEG of a picture of the ocean, and that'll be the whole symphony.
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Uh you know, it doesn't work that way.
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Um and I think for a lot of those composers that was probably true as as well.
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I think you know, s surrealism is a way of giving you new jumping-off points, I think, for a lot of composers rather than sticking rigidly to the rules.
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You know, the the desire is still to make a coherent emotional whole.
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Yep.
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Um certainly is for you.
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Um and uh why strings, you know, presumably you could use that medidata to to control anything.
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Drums, synths, yeah.
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I particularly like string.
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I I sort of grew up in uh playing classical music as a violin player and did youth orchestras and string quartets and um have even written a bit for a string quartet.
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So I like it.
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I'm feel quite comfortable using those sounds.
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I kind of know how to use them I get to get them to do this the things I want.
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In an orchestration or arranging sensibility, I have regions that I think of.
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So there's you know, the strings represent what could also be done with certain types of synth pads or um normal instruments or regular instruments, traditional instruments.
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Um likewise things in the bass region or things in the low region or things in the very top end.
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Um it's almost like painting with colors in a way.
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You you use swathes of tonality to cut to fill this area, and that's fulfilling a function of rhythm and harmony, or this bit over here is fulfilling the the function of more rhythm, but this time melody.
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Okay.
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Um, and so my constructions within the the computer are a little bit like that.
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So in my mind, the strings worked really well, the orchestral thing it gave me the range because there was nice bowed double basses in there that have a lot of impact, and violins as well.
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I could have just as easily used synths and you know old Korg string patches would achieve the similar sort of a thing.
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Yeah, but in this case, uh for most of this project, because this is an album called Sonnables 2, and I I did come back to using conventions of of strings just to sort of try and create cohesion.
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Okay.
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Um, even though I'm sort of doing all this bonker stuff and random stuff and bringing real world real world sounds in and playing with them and teasing them and mangling them into different things, I still have a sensibility of trying to bring it together into a whole that makes sense.
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Okay.
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Which that's that's artistic.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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And and something that goes through all your compositions is is storytelling.
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It feels like you're always leading us on a journey.
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And this one starts in quite an identifiable place.
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You know, the the way that you use the the sound of the brook at the beginning, we know where we are.
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Only for a second, you know, before we we move in somewhere else.
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The the next thing that I hear, uh, I thought might be a human voice.
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We hear a kind of pad sound coming in over that.
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Is that a human voice?
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It's um birds.
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That have been stretched and mangled as you do with samples and then pitched.
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So we get this.
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There's three voices.
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There's one, that's two, and then that's three.
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If we listen to one on its own, you can sort of almost hear the individual birds.
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Dude, or at least to me it's obvious.
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I know probably not.
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And they make a very coherent major chord to my ear.
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Um have you have you pitched them to particular notes so that they do that?
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Yeah.
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We have uh in this case we have it building into a nice little major chord, really.
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It's not obviously a major chord, but there's a root and the fifth and the third going on.
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Um within those, each of those tones, there are quite a lot of overtones and harmonics that are sort of blended in.
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And by mangling samples, uh, you wind up with artifacts, just random bits of distortion or or whatnot that sort of contribute to the quality of the sound.
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And to me, it's a note, it's a chord, and it also has motion to it.
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So yeah, it's a very rich and and uh and ever-evolving sound.
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Yeah, and you know, there's a bit of reverb on everything as well, which always makes everything sound better.
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But that that chord it's just with the stream in the background and then sort of the strings being a little bit uh bonkers.
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With in the sense that they're not playing a traditional melody.
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When this note comes in, it sort of serves to sort of tie things down a little bit.
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It sort of goes, here's a place.
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Everything is sort of revolving around this place.
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But there's still lots of things going on around it, but we suddenly have somewhere to anchor our ear and to settle in.
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And if you've created that major chord, how do you decide?
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You know, if you've got quite uh chromatic music without an obvious home key, then you've got the sound of a stream.
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How how do you decide what key to put your major chord in?
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I think if you go back to the very beginning, and again, this is a bit of a stretch, but um I would say that the key kind of comes from the tonality of the stream.
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I know it is a bit of a stretch, but I can kind of hear it.
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Okay.
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And do you just play around with a few chords until you find the one that feels like it fits?
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I think so.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Those the notes that we got with the birds, that is also something that just evolves from the samples themselves as you start manipulating from them.
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Because they they develop their own harmonics and their own sort of distortion.
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Yeah.
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Um and yes, you can play around and you can pitch it a little bit, but for the most part, though, it exists as a a physical function of the sample being manipulated.
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Okay.
00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:43.519
But it it certainly you know, if you were to create, well, I don't think you could create that sound that you've got out of a synth patch.
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There are so many other things in those bird samples that are irregular and unusual.
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Reverb and distortion and delay.
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So the function of those effects uh is applied to normal instruments like a guitar or something like that, to create a little bit of fuzz or a little bit of diffusion of sound that helps glue everything together.
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Um and I kind of like doing it a bit more manually with found sounds and and samples.
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Right, but that's interesting.
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But they they form a similar function for you as a sonic glue to have these artifacts, to have the the little fizzes.
00:24:25.279 --> 00:24:25.839
Yeah, okay.
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You know, if you're reading um that book on mastering Bob Katz.
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Yeah, you know, he talks about that stuff and he talks about how it just is just like softening the edges of some of that harsh digitalness.
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And um and so I'm using harsh digitalness to sort of soften the edge of the harsh digital digitalness.
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Uh a bit of auto panning, you know.
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I've got all the auto I do use a lot of automation in the mixing.
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Right.
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Um, and then placement starts becoming quite important to me.
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Okay.
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Like spatial placement.
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Spatial placement.
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Like uh the original samples that I used were ambisonic files.
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Oh, okay.
00:25:04.799 --> 00:25:09.599
So then So there was like a you know, a multi-channel placement.
00:25:09.920 --> 00:25:18.559
Obviously, you set the microphone in front of a spring and you record it, so there's not really like a lot of motion or depth to that other than there.
00:25:18.880 --> 00:25:32.400
So it's been mixed down to a binaural sample for this case, and then as I start mixing strings and these these other noises, they they do occupy a variety of spaces within the stereo thing.
00:25:32.559 --> 00:25:35.359
So if you're listening to this, do it on headphones.
00:25:35.920 --> 00:25:40.480
Okay, so that there is a binaural element to um yeah.
00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:45.279
Um and you definitely like to take us on a journey.
00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:46.000
Sure.
00:25:46.400 --> 00:25:48.880
So we've started off as in a stream.
00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:58.480
We've heard this kind of uh otherworldly choir of of birds, and then some strings.
00:25:59.200 --> 00:26:08.240
Um but it leads us towards um beginning, a middle, and an end, and variations of that, and sometimes playing around with that whole form.
00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:10.720
It's an introduction to the stream, is what I'm doing.
00:26:10.960 --> 00:26:11.200
Okay.
00:26:11.359 --> 00:26:18.640
I'm I'm saying this is a this is the most amazing little bubbling spring I've ever seen in Midlothian, and here it is.
00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:24.079
Uh and then there's a story that goes with it, which is it goes on.
00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:27.920
Um have I sold this?
00:26:44.079 --> 00:26:45.039
Here we go, we're heading.
00:26:56.799 --> 00:26:57.119
Great.
00:26:57.279 --> 00:26:59.680
And if if we could just pause there for a second.
00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:06.319
So there the birds have taken us right into an unknown land.
00:27:06.880 --> 00:27:14.400
There's a there's a very a very noticeable transition from those birds.
00:27:14.720 --> 00:27:26.720
Um I feel like you know they've thrust me through a portal in into um, I suppose what you know in in beginning, middle, end uh uh terms is the middle.
00:27:27.359 --> 00:27:28.799
We're swooped into the middle.
00:27:28.880 --> 00:27:42.960
It's potentially the similar to um as the sun slowly emerges from behind a big cloud or the the big sort of swoosh into something else, uh it's making you think that something's gonna happen and then something happens.
00:27:43.200 --> 00:27:54.480
And it it's a very particular effect that you a lot of your music is very filmic, and actually that there is a film that that accompanies this piece, which I urge you to go and look at on YouTube.
00:27:56.079 --> 00:28:02.000
But can we can we hear the the birds transition um one more time?
00:28:13.519 --> 00:28:16.720
And actually now I know they're birds, it's it's kind of clear.
00:28:16.880 --> 00:28:17.200
Yeah.
00:28:17.519 --> 00:28:21.200
Um and I think there's a bit of ring modulating going on in there as well.
00:28:21.440 --> 00:28:21.759
Okay.
00:28:21.839 --> 00:28:31.759
Um there's definitely on one of the keyboards there's there's a ring modulator, so um it has that sense of distortion and and also electrical interference.
00:28:32.079 --> 00:28:32.400
Okay.
00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:35.039
Because that that is one of my favorite sounds as well.
00:28:35.119 --> 00:28:41.680
It's not on this track in particular, but I have quite a lot that I use um radio interference signals.
00:28:42.160 --> 00:28:42.720
Right.
00:28:42.880 --> 00:28:58.799
Um again, it's it's just a different sound that's part of, to me, normal orchestrating vocabulary, and it serves a function and it creates sort of a stress and a sci-fi feel, let's say.
00:28:59.279 --> 00:29:14.160
Um and it it feels like I'm being very confidently led at this point by a composer who's saying, right, this is where you were, I'm taking you somewhere else, and then the somewhere else is a whole new world.
00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:21.680
We we're hearing keyboard chords, very deliberate chords, pre-decided.
00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:36.799
I mean, obviously the whole thing is composed, but but you have quite an unusual and chance-influenced way of composing the the first bit of this piece, and then I feel like okay, this is this is a a bedrock.
00:29:36.880 --> 00:29:42.880
This is this is this is a very clear decision about harmony and and rhythm.
00:29:43.359 --> 00:29:51.519
Um we come through a a journey, it's a journey, I suppose, and we're we're at this spring watching the water.
00:29:51.680 --> 00:29:56.799
Um, but the transition is is a little bit like sort of moving into the secret world or something.
00:29:56.880 --> 00:30:06.400
You sort of pass through uh uh overhanging trees and you come out on the other side and maybe there's a lake or something, or you know, it it that's kind of the direction it's going.
00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:26.400
Because it it on the way there it can get quite sinister and it gets quite loud and it um uh it could go any direction, so it's nice that it sort of flops out into sort of this big chordal tonal area that's robust and it's supportive and it's holding you up and it has lots of nice tones.
00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:28.400
So it feels quite safe, yes.
00:30:28.559 --> 00:30:31.279
And uh can we just hear the the keys on the right?
00:30:31.920 --> 00:30:32.880
Surely.
00:30:33.279 --> 00:30:34.319
We're going up here.
00:30:34.480 --> 00:30:39.759
It also has a little bit of bass attached to it, so we come up and swoosh.
00:31:13.599 --> 00:31:17.359
And then it comes and back to this.
00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:41.519
And so for you, isn't was there a distinct decision moving from taking an audio sample, getting the the notes and pitch values in in digital form and assigning them to strings, which is not a totally random process because you then go through and curate it, but it isn't a process where you've decided where every note falls in advance.
00:31:41.599 --> 00:31:41.680
Right.
00:31:41.839 --> 00:31:47.119
And then we reach the section where it feels to me like you have decided where every note falls in advance.
00:31:47.200 --> 00:31:51.119
It was is this something that you you deliberately wanted both?
00:31:51.440 --> 00:31:58.640
Um, I kind of run on instinct a little bit and feel certain things are required to make it work.
00:31:59.200 --> 00:32:04.799
Um the answer to that question is there's probably quite a few things I could have done that would achieve that.
00:32:05.119 --> 00:32:15.440
Um but because of the tonality of the of the babbling of the spring and the string thing that we've created, this sort of made the most logical sense to me.
00:32:15.519 --> 00:32:22.000
It sort of felt like uh I do like to let my instinct sort of guide me when I'm choosing chords and things like that.
00:32:22.079 --> 00:32:26.400
And I sort of felt very strong that it brought me to this place.
00:32:27.119 --> 00:32:44.319
And because everything else is so rhythmic and angular and moving in an erratic fashion, when I played those chords like that, there was just sort of this great grounding warmth and and sort of settlement to the to the piece.
00:32:44.559 --> 00:32:58.559
Um and I think it's kind of a really important thing to do for your listeners to if you're going to challenge them, you also have to reward them or you have to give them things that make them feel good.
00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:13.680
Um, not that I know what that really means or what it in the in the in the patchwork quilt style of putting things together, I'm not just gonna give you like crazy stream for five minutes and hope for the best.
00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:15.039
Yeah, okay.
00:33:15.279 --> 00:33:25.839
Um so part of it is about uh perhaps something a bit more tangible to cling on to for the listener, but it also sounds like some of it is to do with contrast.
00:33:26.559 --> 00:33:39.759
Um you we've we've had something which is unpredictable and a little bit uneasy, and and so the contrast of that is to to give us somewhere where we can feel comfortable for a moment.
00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:51.359
Um and although the harmony is quite complex, or to you know to my ear it's quite complex, it definitely has a total centre all of a sudden, and there is something relaxing about that.
00:33:52.720 --> 00:33:55.359
Um and there's bass as well.
00:33:55.680 --> 00:33:57.920
We we I think we just heard the keys there.
00:33:58.160 --> 00:34:04.160
Um I think there might also be some oh double bass.
00:34:04.640 --> 00:34:06.240
Hang on, let's go ahead just a second.
00:34:24.719 --> 00:34:30.480
So the the blips, those are still playing the stream.
00:34:30.719 --> 00:34:35.360
Okay, and so that's those notes are determined by the mini data that came out of the stream.
00:34:35.440 --> 00:34:35.679
Yeah.
00:34:35.840 --> 00:34:40.320
You're very well known as a bass player, you're you're very proficient as a bass player.
00:34:40.639 --> 00:34:42.960
Why didn't you play the bass?
00:34:43.280 --> 00:34:44.880
I don't think it needed it.
00:34:45.119 --> 00:34:56.639
Yeah, well I could uh you know in some cases I do go back and I um because it is a while ago, I may well have gone through it a few times with the bass and it just didn't quite click.
00:34:56.880 --> 00:34:57.440
Okay, yeah.
00:34:57.519 --> 00:34:59.280
Um and so is that a sonic choice?
00:34:59.360 --> 00:35:03.360
Something that's a sonic huge and warm that that you can underpin with.
00:35:03.679 --> 00:35:05.920
Yes, in this case that definitely was the case.
00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:21.199
Uh it just felt like also to counterbalance the stream, because the stream is very present, it's quite loud in the mix, and it's uh it's constant through, and then there's another stream that's mangled up a bit that that is creating sort of a little bit of chaos within that.
00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:38.719
So having that's the one thing that I really love about synth bass and sampled bass is you can take a note and it can be quite low and it's solid and it's reassuring and it stays.
00:35:39.119 --> 00:35:47.039
You know, with a double bass, I can play you a low note and it can sound gorgeous, but it's got the attack and it's got the decay.
00:35:47.199 --> 00:35:53.599
Um, I could get the bow out and play it with the bow, um, and that would sort of create the same sort of effect.
00:35:53.679 --> 00:35:58.480
Um, but then you know, my technique with a bow is pretty questionable at best.
00:35:58.639 --> 00:36:04.320
So um sometimes you gotta just decide to go with what's yeah, what's right.
00:36:04.480 --> 00:36:10.079
Yeah, um, electric bass is very good at s hitting a big note and sustaining, but it also decays.
00:36:10.239 --> 00:36:10.480
Yeah.
00:36:10.639 --> 00:36:16.800
So and then you wind up having to play the notes again or or get an ebo, you know, those little magnetic things.
00:36:17.199 --> 00:36:22.719
Um so no, it's I like the sound, I'm quite happy with the way it works.
00:36:22.800 --> 00:36:25.199
Uh I'll move on and do the next thing.
00:36:25.360 --> 00:36:25.840
Yeah.
00:36:26.079 --> 00:36:32.079
Um and the next thing that that happens here is a combination of these two worlds.
00:36:32.239 --> 00:36:42.960
The strings come back in whilst we still have this jazz-influenced harmony in the keys part, and there I'm transported to a completely different world again.
00:36:43.199 --> 00:37:02.079
There I I feel uh Gil Evans or uh Lale Schiffrin or Bernard Herman's Taxi Driver Score, these these things that combine uh really well-informed and and brilliant orchestral arrangement with a jazz sensibility.
00:37:02.480 --> 00:37:10.159
Um and that takes me a very long way from this stream in Midlothian where I was, what, two and a half minutes ago.
00:37:10.400 --> 00:37:10.960
Yes.
00:37:12.480 --> 00:37:17.599
Um, but also uh they're related, they have they have meaning together.
00:37:17.760 --> 00:37:21.599
Uh they they're sort of they certainly exist side by side in my brain.
00:37:21.760 --> 00:37:22.880
That's what this is all about.
00:37:22.960 --> 00:37:26.639
This is a little voyage into the the chaos inside of my head.
00:37:27.039 --> 00:37:29.920
I feel very comfortable in the chaos inside of your head, so I'm so that's good.
00:37:30.159 --> 00:37:31.199
It's a bit worrying.
00:37:32.639 --> 00:37:38.320
I love putting things together and seeing if they fit, seeing if they work together.
00:37:38.639 --> 00:37:47.920
Uh I love the relationship of something like a burn or stream informing the choices of an orchestra.
00:37:48.079 --> 00:37:49.760
There's something beautiful about that.
00:37:49.840 --> 00:38:05.679
And there's also something beautiful about playing instruments outside, then crafting it so that it goes together beautifully, like bringing things together and trying them and trying to attempt to make and how did you make this blend together?
00:38:05.920 --> 00:38:12.000
Because you've you've got a keyboard part with a very clear tonal center, you've got a string part without a tonal center.
00:38:12.159 --> 00:38:15.599
What what do you need to do to make it coherent?
00:38:15.920 --> 00:38:20.320
So the atonal string part is completely the spring.
00:38:20.880 --> 00:38:30.159
It's uh all of the notes are derived from the spring, and the spring plays throughout underneath, so that it's like the supporting actor.
00:38:30.880 --> 00:38:51.840
The chords and the keyboards, they're sort of derived a little bit by, in my mind, what seems to be a relative tonality, and it carries the chorus, you know, certain things need to happen in the song to make the story complete, and so we're into the middle, and it just gives us the chords that move us forward.
00:38:52.000 --> 00:39:00.639
To me, that's the one of the crafts I really love doing is figure out how to make the songs move forward and continually asking questions.
00:39:01.119 --> 00:39:10.159
And how much did you have to tweak that that stream data that you turned into string notes to fit with the keyboard part?
00:39:10.480 --> 00:39:12.880
Ultimately, I didn't try and make them fit.
00:39:13.119 --> 00:39:21.599
They sort of evolved separately, and the string the string data did take a long time just to create something that sonically that works.
00:39:21.760 --> 00:39:22.000
Yeah.
00:39:22.159 --> 00:39:26.079
Um, and then was I was able to orchestrate it across four different sections.
00:39:26.480 --> 00:39:30.000
And then as we go towards the end of the song, then I started.
00:39:30.719 --> 00:39:34.880
You realize that sometimes random notes aren't necessarily the best choice.
00:39:35.119 --> 00:39:50.719
I started making choices about certain notes, thinking it'd be really nice if that was actually an F sharp to aim us back to the to the home key, just as a little blink of sanity in in the midst of all this chaos.
00:39:50.960 --> 00:39:51.599
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:39:51.840 --> 00:39:56.000
And it can be really uh um impactful when you do that.
00:39:56.320 --> 00:40:01.599
Um just a couple of notes in the right direction just make the whole thing resolve in a nice way.
00:40:01.920 --> 00:40:04.400
And it certainly doesn't lose its character.
00:40:04.559 --> 00:40:08.320
Uh we we feel it as a yeah, exactly.
00:40:08.639 --> 00:40:21.280
From the middle bit, then we the strings come back in, we get a little bit of all of it together, like you having the strings and the keys and the burn and the sample notes as well, they they all get to play together then.
00:40:21.440 --> 00:40:22.800
So you get the whole ensemble.
00:40:22.960 --> 00:40:28.000
And then I'm just sort of removing little bits and pieces as we go towards the end.
00:40:28.239 --> 00:40:32.320
Uh, there's like a little question-answer sort of thing that goes on at the end.
00:40:32.559 --> 00:40:37.840
Um towards the end, there's a kind of otherworldly version of the brook.
00:40:38.639 --> 00:40:56.320
Um could we hear that in isolation almost sounds like it's in a tin can.
00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:01.679
And then it sounds like voices almost.
00:41:13.280 --> 00:41:16.719
And you'll layering that with the the natural sound of the brook as well.
00:41:16.880 --> 00:41:22.159
Yeah, if I bring the other one in as well, then you get the two together.
00:41:22.960 --> 00:41:31.840
I do fade out the normal spring, but you can sort of hear how they're related, but yeah.
00:41:32.079 --> 00:41:45.519
This is like uh a tender version of a soprano, the soprano burn, the soprano spring, and then the tenor spring some altos there, and then we're back in with the the lead, the lead spring.
00:41:55.039 --> 00:42:03.440
And again, all those points of articulation are being mirrored with the the strings throughout this.
00:42:04.079 --> 00:42:10.239
So it really has been built out of your experience of sitting by that spring for an hour.
00:42:11.760 --> 00:42:14.639
Um beautiful.
00:42:14.800 --> 00:42:15.679
Well, thank you, Tom.
00:42:15.920 --> 00:42:19.840
Um I'd love to hear it again now I know a little bit more.
00:00:01.120 --> 00:00:02.080
Hello there.
00:00:02.319 --> 00:00:07.040
My name is Tom Lyne, and this is an act of listening.
00:00:14.880 --> 00:00:15.919
Good afternoon.
00:00:16.239 --> 00:00:17.440
Good afternoon, Tom Lyne.
00:00:17.600 --> 00:00:20.480
I'd like to welcome Martin Green to the studio today.
00:00:20.800 --> 00:00:25.120
He's a music producer, composer, musician extraordinaire.
00:00:25.760 --> 00:00:27.199
Thank you very much for having me.
00:00:27.359 --> 00:00:31.359
It's great to be here in your studio in beautiful Midlothian.
00:00:31.679 --> 00:00:38.240
Today we're going to explore a piece of music from my surrounded by Midlothian project.
00:00:38.960 --> 00:00:44.399
An album called Sonnables 2, and this piece is known as Underground.
00:00:45.039 --> 00:00:50.399
So we're going to descend into the depths of the local Tynewater Valley.
00:00:50.640 --> 00:00:50.960
Brilliant.
00:04:26.800 --> 00:04:30.720
So if we start with the title, it's called Underground.
00:04:31.120 --> 00:04:31.920
Why is that?
00:04:32.240 --> 00:04:45.519
It's called Underground because uh it started with a recording of an underground stream uh spring that I found on one of my quests over by Vogri Country Park.
00:04:45.680 --> 00:04:49.360
I was in Tyne Valley and it was just at the side of a a trail.
00:04:49.439 --> 00:04:57.600
I heard a little bit of water and I looked down, and there's a puddle about half a meter across and the water was just burbling up from the ground underneath.
00:04:58.240 --> 00:05:05.199
So of course, first thing you do is sit down with your mics and and a video camera and and record that.
00:05:07.040 --> 00:05:11.120
So that provided the basis for the beginning of the song.
00:05:19.839 --> 00:05:26.959
It's a beautiful, it's a segment of a much longer recording of a a spring.
00:05:27.199 --> 00:05:29.279
I keep forgetting the word for spring.
00:05:29.600 --> 00:05:37.439
But what I found really interesting about it was the way that the drops and the burbals all kind of had tone quality to them.
00:05:37.759 --> 00:05:46.000
So are you going out walking in the countryside with your equipment, actively seeking out things that make interesting sounds?
00:05:46.160 --> 00:05:47.439
Is that is that where you start?
00:05:48.160 --> 00:05:48.800
Yeah.
00:05:49.199 --> 00:05:49.680
Yeah.
00:05:49.839 --> 00:05:56.160
I sort of have a I put together a hit list of places that I would like to go, things I sort of hope to capture.
00:05:56.879 --> 00:06:09.199
I did a whole series sort of around Tyn Valley and the burn that's down there, and then there's also Vogarry Country Park and some nice forests and lots of wildlife.
00:06:09.600 --> 00:06:14.240
So you're looking for things to actively make into pieces of music later on.
00:06:14.319 --> 00:06:18.959
Is that part of your thinking whilst you're recording these environmental sounds?
00:06:19.439 --> 00:06:23.040
I don't always think along that lines.
00:06:23.279 --> 00:06:29.759
More it's about capturing good environmental sounds because I want to create um libraries of sound effects.
00:06:29.920 --> 00:06:30.240
Okay.
00:06:30.480 --> 00:06:33.920
And so that's the first motive for recording this stuff.
00:06:34.000 --> 00:06:36.879
It was things that I was using in bits of film or video.
00:06:37.439 --> 00:06:50.480
Um and I have uh since since I was a kid, I have a I've always loved recording things and playing around with cassette tapes and um four-track recorders and then onto computers when the time came.
00:06:50.720 --> 00:06:54.560
So um I just love recording things and collecting sounds.
00:06:54.639 --> 00:06:59.120
I've an extensive library of a lot of natural stuff.
00:06:59.279 --> 00:07:04.000
Because we live in a beautiful environment, this is a great place to go and capture sounds.
00:07:04.319 --> 00:07:21.839
Okay, and so some of those work their way into kind of artistic projects like this, and some of them just become a repository of environmental sounds that um and so then why this one to base a piece of music on?
00:07:22.319 --> 00:07:22.639
Okay.
00:07:23.199 --> 00:07:34.000
Um in this case, that little bit of burn that we heard burbling away, um it contains rhythm and tone and texture and all these sort of things.
00:07:34.160 --> 00:07:41.439
I'll play a little bit and just sort of let you uh sink into the the joy of a burn.
00:07:49.680 --> 00:07:52.240
It's not evident at first, but there's pitch.
00:08:04.959 --> 00:08:08.399
So your composers here is is actually hearing notes in that.
00:08:08.879 --> 00:08:13.279
Uh uh when you close your eyes and sort of really sink into it, I always use expressions like sink into it.
00:08:13.360 --> 00:08:15.279
You sort of have to, it's like meditation.
00:08:15.439 --> 00:08:17.839
You just sort of let that sample go through your head.
00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:25.360
But yeah, you start hearing all the different drops, and the the different size of the drop makes a different pitched.
00:08:27.519 --> 00:08:28.480
Whatever you want to call it.
00:08:28.879 --> 00:08:38.320
Um and it's kind of semi-random because there's a stream of water shooting out of the ground and it's sort of bubbling around in the water next to it.
00:08:38.480 --> 00:08:43.200
After a while you start noticing patterns in it, but they're not really very clear.
00:08:43.360 --> 00:08:51.840
But definitely there's all the different pitches and the the top end, the treble of it, and the the darker bottom end of it.
00:08:51.919 --> 00:08:54.960
And it's sort of like this tiny little symphony goes on in there.
00:08:55.279 --> 00:08:55.919
Fascinating.
00:08:56.080 --> 00:09:04.240
So, how how do you how do you then move forward into turning that sound into a piece of music?
00:09:04.799 --> 00:09:06.720
Yeah, there's a bit of a leap.
00:09:07.039 --> 00:09:30.799
Um so I started playing around with this idea of uh I liked the the rhythm and the tones that were in there, and so through a process of compressing an EQ of a sample, um you you can then sort of highlight those bits, and then you can extract MIDI data from it.
00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:36.799
Okay, so and and MIDI is a way of telling a computer which note to play for how long.
00:09:37.200 --> 00:09:51.200
Yeah, as opposed to the audio side, which is the voice of recording or the actual recording of the burn, turning it into MIDI, it is just a numerical data representation of a series of pitches and velocities.
00:09:51.440 --> 00:09:55.840
And then I started playing with that, extracting more and more meaning from it.
00:09:56.000 --> 00:09:59.200
You know, with a sound like this, in the middle.
00:10:02.320 --> 00:10:10.240
So this is very esoteric, but in the middle of that sound is a lot of white noise, and like wind or like rain or a river.
00:10:10.320 --> 00:10:20.000
It has sort of this noise that's made up of a bazillion little drops or sounds, and they all mesh together to sort of make a gray sound.
00:10:20.080 --> 00:10:25.840
It's like the noise we used to have on televisions when you put a static on a television.
00:10:26.159 --> 00:10:26.320
Okay.
00:10:26.639 --> 00:10:33.840
It's just like a lot of points, there's nothing in the specific, and it's called white noise because it just makes everything else disappear.
00:10:34.000 --> 00:10:37.600
So you have to sort of carve out that bit of the.
00:10:38.159 --> 00:10:46.320
Okay, so when you first translate an audio sample into MIDI data, you end up with something that's far too complex to hear anything in.
00:10:46.639 --> 00:10:47.039
Yeah.
00:10:47.679 --> 00:10:54.399
I have an example here of a of a different thing that I'm working on just right at the moment, which it's a rainstorm.
00:10:57.279 --> 00:11:00.879
Brilliant, I feel like being punched by that pro Stravinsky though.
00:11:01.120 --> 00:11:01.840
Brilliant.
00:11:02.559 --> 00:11:04.080
Oh, I'm so sorry.
00:11:09.840 --> 00:11:14.080
So this is rain on a conservatory room.
00:11:14.399 --> 00:11:14.720
Okay.
00:11:15.679 --> 00:11:18.320
And you can almost hear the individual rain drops.
00:11:19.120 --> 00:11:20.639
But I can also hear what you're saying.
00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:24.240
That there's there's almost every single note at once there.
00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:28.000
That's exactly what white noise is, it's every single note at once.
00:11:28.159 --> 00:11:32.080
That's why they use it for testing PAs and checking room acoustics and things like that.
00:11:32.240 --> 00:11:36.879
Because it it gives you a sweep of the full range of harmonic content.
00:11:37.279 --> 00:11:46.080
Um, so then I you sort of have to carve the sound a little bit and start hiling the important thing.
00:11:46.240 --> 00:11:47.279
And then you get this.
00:11:52.799 --> 00:11:54.080
Which this is really.
00:11:58.879 --> 00:12:06.639
And it's quite random, and the rhythm is uncontrolled, and the pitches are are completely across the whole spectrum.
00:12:07.360 --> 00:12:09.120
So that's kind of where it starts from.
00:12:09.360 --> 00:12:09.600
Okay.
00:12:09.759 --> 00:12:11.759
It's not terribly musical at that point.
00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:17.360
However, it does it does have features, and there's different ways you can go about looking for those features.
00:12:17.600 --> 00:12:25.759
Um, and with the stream, going back to the stream piece, um, I returned to this recording over and over again.
00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:34.080
And just listen for the notes that really sort of stick out to me, and then line that up with the MIDI data that I'm sort of editing.
00:12:34.399 --> 00:12:39.360
Okay, so you're you're kind of going through and taking out, deleting those notes that you don't want.
00:12:40.399 --> 00:12:40.480
Okay.
00:12:40.799 --> 00:12:45.840
That's really it's that's the process, is r eliminating the things that are unnecessary.
00:12:46.240 --> 00:12:46.320
Okay.
00:12:46.559 --> 00:12:48.799
And then you feed that the MIDI data.
00:12:49.360 --> 00:12:50.559
To bring it back.
00:12:51.039 --> 00:12:53.519
In into a in this instance, into a string sample?
00:12:53.919 --> 00:12:56.480
Uh it's on several channels of string samples.
00:12:56.799 --> 00:13:05.919
And uh in a very ad hoc orchestral kind of way, there's a violin one, violin two, some violas, and some cellos and bases.
00:13:06.639 --> 00:13:07.440
Is the idea.
00:13:07.759 --> 00:13:14.240
Okay, so you're kind of streaming out that very complex data into a few manageable parts.
00:13:14.480 --> 00:13:15.120
Yes.
00:13:47.840 --> 00:13:49.519
You can almost hear it lining up.
00:13:49.840 --> 00:13:50.320
Interesting.
00:13:50.480 --> 00:14:19.519
And and without the stream or knowing anything about the compositional process, i I mean, it sounds very much to my ear like contemporary classical orchestral music, um, especially, you know, kind of post-World War II music where people were really interested in trying to move away from traditional forms of melody or having this very kind of centered home key.
00:14:19.679 --> 00:14:20.080
Yeah.
00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:35.519
And when I listened to this the first time, uh before I came to do this session, I had assumed you had sat there with a a pencil and a piece of manuscript and and written this out, which as a composer you're more than than capable of doing, but you've chosen not to do that.
00:14:35.840 --> 00:14:36.159
No.
00:14:36.559 --> 00:14:44.879
Um it was more interesting to look for the the bits that stuck out, the the shiny bits, let's call it.
00:14:45.120 --> 00:14:48.320
Um the things that I'm always attracted to in music.
00:14:48.720 --> 00:14:54.399
Uh which admittedly have a particular tonality to them because that's what I'm tuned into.
00:14:54.480 --> 00:14:55.759
That's like any composer, you know.
00:14:56.000 --> 00:15:02.879
You listen to any of the people you've mentioned, and their music represents their thinking.
00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:17.279
So like this, me selecting notes or eliminating notes I don't want to, I'm left with notes that I like, which kind of start after a while you start recognizing your own tonality, style.
00:15:17.679 --> 00:15:21.039
Okay, so a different composer might have taken that MIDI file and chosen different notes.
00:15:21.279 --> 00:15:21.679
Totally.
00:15:21.840 --> 00:15:22.159
Okay.
00:15:22.720 --> 00:15:23.840
No two would have been the same.
00:15:23.919 --> 00:15:26.080
And if I did it again with the same thing, it would be different.
00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:26.559
Okay.
00:15:26.639 --> 00:15:34.080
Um, though I've heard this one enough times that I'd probably be pulled back in that same direction again just because the good old days.
00:15:35.039 --> 00:15:48.960
And it's part of the the appeal for you of this process that you are pushed away from repeating yourself as a composer because you've given yourself over to chance to a certain extent.
00:15:49.279 --> 00:16:11.840
I think introducing chance and randomness in the like I I I do love uh Stockhausen and um I can't think of all the names because I'm terrible with names, but you know, all these sort of but there's a sort of Schoenberg, you know, that there's some there's something, and and it's not my area of expertise, but you know, something that reminds me of Ligety and Schoenberg and um Yeah.
00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:12.879
So yeah.
00:16:13.200 --> 00:16:19.360
They they introduce these processes and they they also have thinking that challenges sort of convention.
00:16:19.759 --> 00:16:31.600
Um so they're looking for other ways of of achieving some sort of artistic composition and construction and experimenting with processes.
00:16:32.000 --> 00:16:49.919
Um and I guess I am experimenting with processes, but I'm not like directly I will do this process and we'll transl uh we will transpose the meaning of a JPEG of a picture of the ocean, and that'll be the whole symphony.
00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:51.840
Uh you know, it doesn't work that way.
00:16:52.080 --> 00:16:55.840
Um and I think for a lot of those composers that was probably true as as well.
00:16:55.919 --> 00:17:04.319
I think you know, s surrealism is a way of giving you new jumping-off points, I think, for a lot of composers rather than sticking rigidly to the rules.
00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:09.839
You know, the the desire is still to make a coherent emotional whole.
00:17:10.079 --> 00:17:10.480
Yep.
00:17:10.720 --> 00:17:12.720
Um certainly is for you.
00:17:12.960 --> 00:17:20.559
Um and uh why strings, you know, presumably you could use that medidata to to control anything.
00:17:20.880 --> 00:17:22.559
Drums, synths, yeah.
00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:24.400
I particularly like string.
00:17:24.480 --> 00:17:34.319
I I sort of grew up in uh playing classical music as a violin player and did youth orchestras and string quartets and um have even written a bit for a string quartet.
00:17:34.559 --> 00:17:36.400
So I like it.
00:17:36.480 --> 00:17:38.160
I'm feel quite comfortable using those sounds.
00:17:38.240 --> 00:17:44.079
I kind of know how to use them I get to get them to do this the things I want.
00:17:44.960 --> 00:17:54.640
In an orchestration or arranging sensibility, I have regions that I think of.
00:17:54.799 --> 00:18:09.680
So there's you know, the strings represent what could also be done with certain types of synth pads or um normal instruments or regular instruments, traditional instruments.
00:18:09.920 --> 00:18:16.400
Um likewise things in the bass region or things in the low region or things in the very top end.
00:18:16.640 --> 00:18:19.599
Um it's almost like painting with colors in a way.
00:18:19.680 --> 00:18:33.920
You you use swathes of tonality to cut to fill this area, and that's fulfilling a function of rhythm and harmony, or this bit over here is fulfilling the the function of more rhythm, but this time melody.
00:18:34.240 --> 00:18:34.559
Okay.
00:18:34.880 --> 00:18:41.200
Um, and so my constructions within the the computer are a little bit like that.
00:18:41.519 --> 00:18:53.599
So in my mind, the strings worked really well, the orchestral thing it gave me the range because there was nice bowed double basses in there that have a lot of impact, and violins as well.
00:18:54.319 --> 00:19:02.960
I could have just as easily used synths and you know old Korg string patches would achieve the similar sort of a thing.
00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:16.799
Yeah, but in this case, uh for most of this project, because this is an album called Sonnables 2, and I I did come back to using conventions of of strings just to sort of try and create cohesion.
00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:17.359
Okay.
00:19:17.680 --> 00:19:34.720
Um, even though I'm sort of doing all this bonker stuff and random stuff and bringing real world real world sounds in and playing with them and teasing them and mangling them into different things, I still have a sensibility of trying to bring it together into a whole that makes sense.
00:19:35.039 --> 00:19:35.279
Okay.
00:19:35.519 --> 00:19:36.400
Which that's that's artistic.
00:19:36.720 --> 00:19:37.200
Yeah, absolutely.
00:19:37.599 --> 00:19:41.519
And and something that goes through all your compositions is is storytelling.
00:19:41.599 --> 00:19:44.640
It feels like you're always leading us on a journey.
00:19:44.880 --> 00:19:48.400
And this one starts in quite an identifiable place.
00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:54.079
You know, the the way that you use the the sound of the brook at the beginning, we know where we are.
00:19:54.400 --> 00:19:58.079
Only for a second, you know, before we we move in somewhere else.
00:19:58.240 --> 00:20:02.720
The the next thing that I hear, uh, I thought might be a human voice.
00:20:02.880 --> 00:20:07.440
We hear a kind of pad sound coming in over that.
00:20:07.599 --> 00:20:08.960
Is that a human voice?
00:20:09.279 --> 00:20:11.279
It's um birds.
00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:15.599
That have been stretched and mangled as you do with samples and then pitched.
00:20:15.839 --> 00:20:16.960
So we get this.
00:20:17.119 --> 00:20:18.319
There's three voices.
00:20:18.480 --> 00:20:25.200
There's one, that's two, and then that's three.
00:20:27.279 --> 00:20:31.920
If we listen to one on its own, you can sort of almost hear the individual birds.
00:20:39.119 --> 00:20:41.119
Dude, or at least to me it's obvious.
00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:43.759
I know probably not.
00:20:44.000 --> 00:20:48.720
And they make a very coherent major chord to my ear.
00:20:48.960 --> 00:20:55.759
Um have you have you pitched them to particular notes so that they do that?
00:20:56.000 --> 00:20:56.480
Yeah.
00:20:56.720 --> 00:21:02.720
We have uh in this case we have it building into a nice little major chord, really.
00:21:06.400 --> 00:21:12.079
It's not obviously a major chord, but there's a root and the fifth and the third going on.
00:21:13.839 --> 00:21:21.039
Um within those, each of those tones, there are quite a lot of overtones and harmonics that are sort of blended in.
00:21:21.359 --> 00:21:33.039
And by mangling samples, uh, you wind up with artifacts, just random bits of distortion or or whatnot that sort of contribute to the quality of the sound.
00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:37.519
And to me, it's a note, it's a chord, and it also has motion to it.
00:21:37.680 --> 00:21:42.799
So yeah, it's a very rich and and uh and ever-evolving sound.
00:21:43.039 --> 00:21:47.519
Yeah, and you know, there's a bit of reverb on everything as well, which always makes everything sound better.
00:21:47.680 --> 00:21:59.359
But that that chord it's just with the stream in the background and then sort of the strings being a little bit uh bonkers.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:04.720
With in the sense that they're not playing a traditional melody.
00:22:04.960 --> 00:22:09.279
When this note comes in, it sort of serves to sort of tie things down a little bit.
00:22:09.440 --> 00:22:11.440
It sort of goes, here's a place.
00:22:11.599 --> 00:22:13.599
Everything is sort of revolving around this place.
00:22:13.680 --> 00:22:21.519
But there's still lots of things going on around it, but we suddenly have somewhere to anchor our ear and to settle in.
00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:25.359
And if you've created that major chord, how do you decide?
00:22:25.440 --> 00:22:33.839
You know, if you've got quite uh chromatic music without an obvious home key, then you've got the sound of a stream.
00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:37.279
How how do you decide what key to put your major chord in?
00:22:37.599 --> 00:22:52.319
I think if you go back to the very beginning, and again, this is a bit of a stretch, but um I would say that the key kind of comes from the tonality of the stream.
00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:06.079
I know it is a bit of a stretch, but I can kind of hear it.
00:23:06.480 --> 00:23:06.799
Okay.
00:23:07.279 --> 00:23:11.039
And do you just play around with a few chords until you find the one that feels like it fits?
00:23:11.359 --> 00:23:11.759
I think so.
00:23:11.839 --> 00:23:12.000
Yeah.
00:23:12.400 --> 00:23:12.799
Yeah.
00:23:13.119 --> 00:23:21.680
Those the notes that we got with the birds, that is also something that just evolves from the samples themselves as you start manipulating from them.
00:23:21.920 --> 00:23:25.359
Because they they develop their own harmonics and their own sort of distortion.
00:23:25.519 --> 00:23:25.839
Yeah.
00:23:26.079 --> 00:23:34.880
Um and yes, you can play around and you can pitch it a little bit, but for the most part, though, it exists as a a physical function of the sample being manipulated.
00:23:35.200 --> 00:23:35.440
Okay.
00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:43.519
But it it certainly you know, if you were to create, well, I don't think you could create that sound that you've got out of a synth patch.
00:23:43.839 --> 00:23:51.200
There are so many other things in those bird samples that are irregular and unusual.
00:23:51.680 --> 00:23:53.839
Reverb and distortion and delay.
00:23:54.319 --> 00:24:09.440
So the function of those effects uh is applied to normal instruments like a guitar or something like that, to create a little bit of fuzz or a little bit of diffusion of sound that helps glue everything together.
00:24:09.680 --> 00:24:15.680
Um and I kind of like doing it a bit more manually with found sounds and and samples.
00:24:16.079 --> 00:24:17.279
Right, but that's interesting.
00:24:17.359 --> 00:24:25.039
But they they form a similar function for you as a sonic glue to have these artifacts, to have the the little fizzes.
00:24:25.279 --> 00:24:25.839
Yeah, okay.
00:24:26.079 --> 00:24:30.400
You know, if you're reading um that book on mastering Bob Katz.
00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:38.160
Yeah, you know, he talks about that stuff and he talks about how it just is just like softening the edges of some of that harsh digitalness.
00:24:38.319 --> 00:24:44.400
And um and so I'm using harsh digitalness to sort of soften the edge of the harsh digital digitalness.
00:24:44.960 --> 00:24:46.480
Uh a bit of auto panning, you know.
00:24:46.559 --> 00:24:50.319
I've got all the auto I do use a lot of automation in the mixing.
00:24:50.480 --> 00:24:50.799
Right.
00:24:50.960 --> 00:24:55.359
Um, and then placement starts becoming quite important to me.
00:24:55.920 --> 00:24:56.240
Okay.
00:24:56.480 --> 00:24:57.359
Like spatial placement.
00:24:57.680 --> 00:24:58.240
Spatial placement.
00:24:58.480 --> 00:25:04.000
Like uh the original samples that I used were ambisonic files.
00:25:04.319 --> 00:25:04.720
Oh, okay.
00:25:04.799 --> 00:25:09.599
So then So there was like a you know, a multi-channel placement.
00:25:09.920 --> 00:25:18.559
Obviously, you set the microphone in front of a spring and you record it, so there's not really like a lot of motion or depth to that other than there.
00:25:18.880 --> 00:25:32.400
So it's been mixed down to a binaural sample for this case, and then as I start mixing strings and these these other noises, they they do occupy a variety of spaces within the stereo thing.
00:25:32.559 --> 00:25:35.359
So if you're listening to this, do it on headphones.
00:25:35.920 --> 00:25:40.480
Okay, so that there is a binaural element to um yeah.
00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:45.279
Um and you definitely like to take us on a journey.
00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:46.000
Sure.
00:25:46.400 --> 00:25:48.880
So we've started off as in a stream.
00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:58.480
We've heard this kind of uh otherworldly choir of of birds, and then some strings.
00:25:59.200 --> 00:26:08.240
Um but it leads us towards um beginning, a middle, and an end, and variations of that, and sometimes playing around with that whole form.
00:26:08.480 --> 00:26:10.720
It's an introduction to the stream, is what I'm doing.
00:26:10.960 --> 00:26:11.200
Okay.
00:26:11.359 --> 00:26:18.640
I'm I'm saying this is a this is the most amazing little bubbling spring I've ever seen in Midlothian, and here it is.
00:26:18.720 --> 00:26:24.079
Uh and then there's a story that goes with it, which is it goes on.
00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:27.920
Um have I sold this?
00:26:44.079 --> 00:26:45.039
Here we go, we're heading.
00:26:56.799 --> 00:26:57.119
Great.
00:26:57.279 --> 00:26:59.680
And if if we could just pause there for a second.
00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:06.319
So there the birds have taken us right into an unknown land.
00:27:06.880 --> 00:27:14.400
There's a there's a very a very noticeable transition from those birds.
00:27:14.720 --> 00:27:26.720
Um I feel like you know they've thrust me through a portal in into um, I suppose what you know in in beginning, middle, end uh uh terms is the middle.
00:27:27.359 --> 00:27:28.799
We're swooped into the middle.
00:27:28.880 --> 00:27:42.960
It's potentially the similar to um as the sun slowly emerges from behind a big cloud or the the big sort of swoosh into something else, uh it's making you think that something's gonna happen and then something happens.
00:27:43.200 --> 00:27:54.480
And it it's a very particular effect that you a lot of your music is very filmic, and actually that there is a film that that accompanies this piece, which I urge you to go and look at on YouTube.
00:27:56.079 --> 00:28:02.000
But can we can we hear the the birds transition um one more time?
00:28:13.519 --> 00:28:16.720
And actually now I know they're birds, it's it's kind of clear.
00:28:16.880 --> 00:28:17.200
Yeah.
00:28:17.519 --> 00:28:21.200
Um and I think there's a bit of ring modulating going on in there as well.
00:28:21.440 --> 00:28:21.759
Okay.
00:28:21.839 --> 00:28:31.759
Um there's definitely on one of the keyboards there's there's a ring modulator, so um it has that sense of distortion and and also electrical interference.
00:28:32.079 --> 00:28:32.400
Okay.
00:28:32.640 --> 00:28:35.039
Because that that is one of my favorite sounds as well.
00:28:35.119 --> 00:28:41.680
It's not on this track in particular, but I have quite a lot that I use um radio interference signals.
00:28:42.160 --> 00:28:42.720
Right.
00:28:42.880 --> 00:28:58.799
Um again, it's it's just a different sound that's part of, to me, normal orchestrating vocabulary, and it serves a function and it creates sort of a stress and a sci-fi feel, let's say.
00:28:59.279 --> 00:29:14.160
Um and it it feels like I'm being very confidently led at this point by a composer who's saying, right, this is where you were, I'm taking you somewhere else, and then the somewhere else is a whole new world.
00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:21.680
We we're hearing keyboard chords, very deliberate chords, pre-decided.
00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:36.799
I mean, obviously the whole thing is composed, but but you have quite an unusual and chance-influenced way of composing the the first bit of this piece, and then I feel like okay, this is this is a a bedrock.
00:29:36.880 --> 00:29:42.880
This is this is this is a very clear decision about harmony and and rhythm.
00:29:43.359 --> 00:29:51.519
Um we come through a a journey, it's a journey, I suppose, and we're we're at this spring watching the water.
00:29:51.680 --> 00:29:56.799
Um, but the transition is is a little bit like sort of moving into the secret world or something.
00:29:56.880 --> 00:30:06.400
You sort of pass through uh uh overhanging trees and you come out on the other side and maybe there's a lake or something, or you know, it it that's kind of the direction it's going.
00:30:06.480 --> 00:30:26.400
Because it it on the way there it can get quite sinister and it gets quite loud and it um uh it could go any direction, so it's nice that it sort of flops out into sort of this big chordal tonal area that's robust and it's supportive and it's holding you up and it has lots of nice tones.
00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:28.400
So it feels quite safe, yes.
00:30:28.559 --> 00:30:31.279
And uh can we just hear the the keys on the right?
00:30:31.920 --> 00:30:32.880
Surely.
00:30:33.279 --> 00:30:34.319
We're going up here.
00:30:34.480 --> 00:30:39.759
It also has a little bit of bass attached to it, so we come up and swoosh.
00:31:13.599 --> 00:31:17.359
And then it comes and back to this.
00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:41.519
And so for you, isn't was there a distinct decision moving from taking an audio sample, getting the the notes and pitch values in in digital form and assigning them to strings, which is not a totally random process because you then go through and curate it, but it isn't a process where you've decided where every note falls in advance.
00:31:41.599 --> 00:31:41.680
Right.
00:31:41.839 --> 00:31:47.119
And then we reach the section where it feels to me like you have decided where every note falls in advance.
00:31:47.200 --> 00:31:51.119
It was is this something that you you deliberately wanted both?
00:31:51.440 --> 00:31:58.640
Um, I kind of run on instinct a little bit and feel certain things are required to make it work.
00:31:59.200 --> 00:32:04.799
Um the answer to that question is there's probably quite a few things I could have done that would achieve that.
00:32:05.119 --> 00:32:15.440
Um but because of the tonality of the of the babbling of the spring and the string thing that we've created, this sort of made the most logical sense to me.
00:32:15.519 --> 00:32:22.000
It sort of felt like uh I do like to let my instinct sort of guide me when I'm choosing chords and things like that.
00:32:22.079 --> 00:32:26.400
And I sort of felt very strong that it brought me to this place.
00:32:27.119 --> 00:32:44.319
And because everything else is so rhythmic and angular and moving in an erratic fashion, when I played those chords like that, there was just sort of this great grounding warmth and and sort of settlement to the to the piece.
00:32:44.559 --> 00:32:58.559
Um and I think it's kind of a really important thing to do for your listeners to if you're going to challenge them, you also have to reward them or you have to give them things that make them feel good.
00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:13.680
Um, not that I know what that really means or what it in the in the in the patchwork quilt style of putting things together, I'm not just gonna give you like crazy stream for five minutes and hope for the best.
00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:15.039
Yeah, okay.
00:33:15.279 --> 00:33:25.839
Um so part of it is about uh perhaps something a bit more tangible to cling on to for the listener, but it also sounds like some of it is to do with contrast.
00:33:26.559 --> 00:33:39.759
Um you we've we've had something which is unpredictable and a little bit uneasy, and and so the contrast of that is to to give us somewhere where we can feel comfortable for a moment.
00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:51.359
Um and although the harmony is quite complex, or to you know to my ear it's quite complex, it definitely has a total centre all of a sudden, and there is something relaxing about that.
00:33:52.720 --> 00:33:55.359
Um and there's bass as well.
00:33:55.680 --> 00:33:57.920
We we I think we just heard the keys there.
00:33:58.160 --> 00:34:04.160
Um I think there might also be some oh double bass.
00:34:04.640 --> 00:34:06.240
Hang on, let's go ahead just a second.
00:34:24.719 --> 00:34:30.480
So the the blips, those are still playing the stream.
00:34:30.719 --> 00:34:35.360
Okay, and so that's those notes are determined by the mini data that came out of the stream.
00:34:35.440 --> 00:34:35.679
Yeah.
00:34:35.840 --> 00:34:40.320
You're very well known as a bass player, you're you're very proficient as a bass player.
00:34:40.639 --> 00:34:42.960
Why didn't you play the bass?
00:34:43.280 --> 00:34:44.880
I don't think it needed it.
00:34:45.119 --> 00:34:56.639
Yeah, well I could uh you know in some cases I do go back and I um because it is a while ago, I may well have gone through it a few times with the bass and it just didn't quite click.
00:34:56.880 --> 00:34:57.440
Okay, yeah.
00:34:57.519 --> 00:34:59.280
Um and so is that a sonic choice?
00:34:59.360 --> 00:35:03.360
Something that's a sonic huge and warm that that you can underpin with.
00:35:03.679 --> 00:35:05.920
Yes, in this case that definitely was the case.
00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:21.199
Uh it just felt like also to counterbalance the stream, because the stream is very present, it's quite loud in the mix, and it's uh it's constant through, and then there's another stream that's mangled up a bit that that is creating sort of a little bit of chaos within that.
00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:38.719
So having that's the one thing that I really love about synth bass and sampled bass is you can take a note and it can be quite low and it's solid and it's reassuring and it stays.
00:35:39.119 --> 00:35:47.039
You know, with a double bass, I can play you a low note and it can sound gorgeous, but it's got the attack and it's got the decay.
00:35:47.199 --> 00:35:53.599
Um, I could get the bow out and play it with the bow, um, and that would sort of create the same sort of effect.
00:35:53.679 --> 00:35:58.480
Um, but then you know, my technique with a bow is pretty questionable at best.
00:35:58.639 --> 00:36:04.320
So um sometimes you gotta just decide to go with what's yeah, what's right.
00:36:04.480 --> 00:36:10.079
Yeah, um, electric bass is very good at s hitting a big note and sustaining, but it also decays.
00:36:10.239 --> 00:36:10.480
Yeah.
00:36:10.639 --> 00:36:16.800
So and then you wind up having to play the notes again or or get an ebo, you know, those little magnetic things.
00:36:17.199 --> 00:36:22.719
Um so no, it's I like the sound, I'm quite happy with the way it works.
00:36:22.800 --> 00:36:25.199
Uh I'll move on and do the next thing.
00:36:25.360 --> 00:36:25.840
Yeah.
00:36:26.079 --> 00:36:32.079
Um and the next thing that that happens here is a combination of these two worlds.
00:36:32.239 --> 00:36:42.960
The strings come back in whilst we still have this jazz-influenced harmony in the keys part, and there I'm transported to a completely different world again.
00:36:43.199 --> 00:37:02.079
There I I feel uh Gil Evans or uh Lale Schiffrin or Bernard Herman's Taxi Driver Score, these these things that combine uh really well-informed and and brilliant orchestral arrangement with a jazz sensibility.
00:37:02.480 --> 00:37:10.159
Um and that takes me a very long way from this stream in Midlothian where I was, what, two and a half minutes ago.
00:37:10.400 --> 00:37:10.960
Yes.
00:37:12.480 --> 00:37:17.599
Um, but also uh they're related, they have they have meaning together.
00:37:17.760 --> 00:37:21.599
Uh they they're sort of they certainly exist side by side in my brain.
00:37:21.760 --> 00:37:22.880
That's what this is all about.
00:37:22.960 --> 00:37:26.639
This is a little voyage into the the chaos inside of my head.
00:37:27.039 --> 00:37:29.920
I feel very comfortable in the chaos inside of your head, so I'm so that's good.
00:37:30.159 --> 00:37:31.199
It's a bit worrying.
00:37:32.639 --> 00:37:38.320
I love putting things together and seeing if they fit, seeing if they work together.
00:37:38.639 --> 00:37:47.920
Uh I love the relationship of something like a burn or stream informing the choices of an orchestra.
00:37:48.079 --> 00:37:49.760
There's something beautiful about that.
00:37:49.840 --> 00:38:05.679
And there's also something beautiful about playing instruments outside, then crafting it so that it goes together beautifully, like bringing things together and trying them and trying to attempt to make and how did you make this blend together?
00:38:05.920 --> 00:38:12.000
Because you've you've got a keyboard part with a very clear tonal center, you've got a string part without a tonal center.
00:38:12.159 --> 00:38:15.599
What what do you need to do to make it coherent?
00:38:15.920 --> 00:38:20.320
So the atonal string part is completely the spring.
00:38:20.880 --> 00:38:30.159
It's uh all of the notes are derived from the spring, and the spring plays throughout underneath, so that it's like the supporting actor.
00:38:30.880 --> 00:38:51.840
The chords and the keyboards, they're sort of derived a little bit by, in my mind, what seems to be a relative tonality, and it carries the chorus, you know, certain things need to happen in the song to make the story complete, and so we're into the middle, and it just gives us the chords that move us forward.
00:38:52.000 --> 00:39:00.639
To me, that's the one of the crafts I really love doing is figure out how to make the songs move forward and continually asking questions.
00:39:01.119 --> 00:39:10.159
And how much did you have to tweak that that stream data that you turned into string notes to fit with the keyboard part?
00:39:10.480 --> 00:39:12.880
Ultimately, I didn't try and make them fit.
00:39:13.119 --> 00:39:21.599
They sort of evolved separately, and the string the string data did take a long time just to create something that sonically that works.
00:39:21.760 --> 00:39:22.000
Yeah.
00:39:22.159 --> 00:39:26.079
Um, and then was I was able to orchestrate it across four different sections.
00:39:26.480 --> 00:39:30.000
And then as we go towards the end of the song, then I started.
00:39:30.719 --> 00:39:34.880
You realize that sometimes random notes aren't necessarily the best choice.
00:39:35.119 --> 00:39:50.719
I started making choices about certain notes, thinking it'd be really nice if that was actually an F sharp to aim us back to the to the home key, just as a little blink of sanity in in the midst of all this chaos.
00:39:50.960 --> 00:39:51.599
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:39:51.840 --> 00:39:56.000
And it can be really uh um impactful when you do that.
00:39:56.320 --> 00:40:01.599
Um just a couple of notes in the right direction just make the whole thing resolve in a nice way.
00:40:01.920 --> 00:40:04.400
And it certainly doesn't lose its character.
00:40:04.559 --> 00:40:08.320
Uh we we feel it as a yeah, exactly.
00:40:08.639 --> 00:40:21.280
From the middle bit, then we the strings come back in, we get a little bit of all of it together, like you having the strings and the keys and the burn and the sample notes as well, they they all get to play together then.
00:40:21.440 --> 00:40:22.800
So you get the whole ensemble.
00:40:22.960 --> 00:40:28.000
And then I'm just sort of removing little bits and pieces as we go towards the end.
00:40:28.239 --> 00:40:32.320
Uh, there's like a little question-answer sort of thing that goes on at the end.
00:40:32.559 --> 00:40:37.840
Um towards the end, there's a kind of otherworldly version of the brook.
00:40:38.639 --> 00:40:56.320
Um could we hear that in isolation almost sounds like it's in a tin can.
00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:01.679
And then it sounds like voices almost.
00:41:13.280 --> 00:41:16.719
And you'll layering that with the the natural sound of the brook as well.
00:41:16.880 --> 00:41:22.159
Yeah, if I bring the other one in as well, then you get the two together.
00:41:22.960 --> 00:41:31.840
I do fade out the normal spring, but you can sort of hear how they're related, but yeah.
00:41:32.079 --> 00:41:45.519
This is like uh a tender version of a soprano, the soprano burn, the soprano spring, and then the tenor spring some altos there, and then we're back in with the the lead, the lead spring.
00:41:55.039 --> 00:42:03.440
And again, all those points of articulation are being mirrored with the the strings throughout this.
00:42:04.079 --> 00:42:10.239
So it really has been built out of your experience of sitting by that spring for an hour.
00:42:11.760 --> 00:42:14.639
Um beautiful.
00:42:14.800 --> 00:42:15.679
Well, thank you, Tom.
00:42:15.920 --> 00:42:19.840
Um I'd love to hear it again now I know a little bit more.
