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Speaker 1: And now Move the Sticks with Daniel Jeremiah and Bucky Brooks. What's up, everybody, Welcome to Move the Sticks, presented by New Era DJ Bucky back here on the MTS Position Prototype Series finale episode today, Buck. Yeah, I mean it's been a fantastic uh series. I've said it many times. I feel like this is really enhanced and elevated my knowledge based on all these positions. Being able to talk to you not only great players at the position, with guys who have coached a position or guys who have evaluated position from a high level. Um, it has really allowed me to rethink how we evaluate it. So I'm excited to talk about these cornerbacks to that. Yeah. Again, you did a nice job of explaining there, Buck, But this has been a series where we've been able to go position by position and talk to all those folks you just mentioned and not only you know what should we be looking for in the position right now what matters, but also I've enjoyed the aspect of it of what's to come, what's the future of this position, because this is a game that continues to change and evolve. Now, Goff with three to the left takes the tap Harmon out blets go off, throws into the right Gilmour's they're intercepted at the four fires for the middle of the field that Paul has picked off by Jalen Ramsey and the end zone. What a play by Jalen. He made up ground and he picked it off in the middle of the end zone. It is ros Here's a blets by Sherman coming off the corner and it's Richard Sherman who gets a sack. Roethlisberger stand in the pocket, throws across the round and null intercepted Chris Harris Jr. Second straight week with a thick interception. We have a couple of good people to come on. We got a number three overall pick, Seawan Spring, someone who was with the Seattle Seahawks when I was there working longtime defensive back coach, Dennis Thurman, dB coach and defensive coordinator. He has been in the league, was a great player also with the Dallas Cowboys. And then we also have former Patriots and Seahawks scout and current executive director of the Reese's Senior Bowl Jim Naggy to discuss the position. So a lot of conversation, a lot of insight can't wait to kind of tackle to the subject with these guys. Yeah, it's kind of a sad day going here for the h the last episode in the series. But if you've missed any of them, NFL dot com slash MTS prototype. So that's NFL dot Com slash MTS prototype. You can find the entire series where you've gone quarterback, running back, receiver, tight end, offensive line, UH, and edge rushers. Those episodes are all there for you to check out. So before we get to these interviews, I thought we'd kind of kick around our ideas. So what we feel is important when we're evaluating this position. Go ahead, Buck. So the first thing that I look for at the position UH is crazy because it's really not anything physical. Is really all mental. I'm looking for a high i Q football player, a guy who is um understands the position and plays the game what I call the right way. He understands down in distance, he understands where he's supposed to fit, he understands how to play with leverage. When you watch the tape, you can tell that he understands hash split rule, meaning he knows where the receiver is about to run based on where the ball is near the hash all of those things. So I want a high i Q player. I want someone who is also doesn't have to be the greatest athlete, but he has to have good movement skills. He has to be fluid able, to redirect, able to kind of stay with some of those special athletes that are on the edge. And finally, in my estimation, he has to have outstanding ball skills. This is a league that is built on turnovers. The guys who went to turnover margin simply consistently win games. So I want someone on the perimeter it is able to generate takeaway so when the ball is errant, is a tip, it's an overthrow, or they make a play, they come down with it. There's a huge difference in this league and guys they get interceptions and guys that just registered breakups. I want the guys that are the ball hawks. So we've done this and that's great. I We've done this trying to come up with two or three attributes that we really really trying to focus in this position. I've I've thought about this and how to you know, how do you say which three? This is what I've come up with. Buck. There's like a gateway right to get into the to get into the door, and the evaluation process we talked about in quarterbacks right then enough arm strength, enough athletic ability. So for me, you know, the quickness, the speed, the fluidity, like, just be at an acceptable range for those. Okay, that's that's to get into the evaluation process. If you don't have those, we can't really evaluate you. But then to me, this is there's a lot of people that fit that criteria. They've got enough speed, they got enough quickness, they got enough fluidity. To me, these are the two things that when I look back at guys I've missed on and trying to learn and grow. The two things now that I am more passionate about than I've ever been at this position. Uh. To me is ball skills. What you mentioned, can you play the ball if you find it. If a player cannot find the ball in college, trust me, he is not going to find it magically when he gets to the NFL. So ball skills is number one, and number two is competitiveness. And competitiveness shows up in a variety of ways. It shows up on those balls. It shows up when your beat can you recover? It shows up when you've got to get off a block and make a play. With all the bubble screens and fly sweeps that we're seeing now, I think it used to be kind of funny. We used to joke about it. Hey, we pay him to cover. Those days are over. Man, With the way that the quick passing game is now and the way the ball is getting the perimeter, you can't tackle. It's tough to play in this league right now. You have to be able to tackle. It's one of those things when we're talking about three attributes. You don't do that. But I think your overall toughness kind of embodies all of that, Like you have to be tough and competitive, and if you're a competitive guy, you're not going to let people run around and dance on the perimeter without hitting them and getting them to the ground. The ball skills, I mean, it goes without mentioning that you have to be able to turn the ball over. Guys who are able to really rack up big turnover numbers their their difference because their game changes, and so um. I ultimately want to look for what I call the catholte, a guy who has size, speed, athleticism, explosive nousts who's a technician who has a high i Q, who also has those other traits when it comes to being a ball hawk. Now I'm with you, all right, We've let's get to these conversations. We've got some good ones coming up here. UH. Dennis Sturman, who had a chance to work with in Baltimore. You've known DT forever for a long time, played against him and played against his team SC and college UM and then he's become one of my dearest friend. He is an outstanding UH coach does a great job of really talking about this defensive back. You know, we're gonna get to him in a minute. We're also gonna get to Jim Naggy, who you mentioned, who's been around some great dbs. One of the dbs UH that we're gonna talk to first though. Jim Naggy spent some time working with in New England Patriots. A guy who found some time with the New England Patriots as well as a team that you were with with the Seattle Seahawks. UH top ten pick in an outstanding pro Shawn Springs coming out of Ohio State, big reputation lived up to it in the league. Here's our conversation. I had a chance to visit with Shawn Springs. Let's coming, Plumber. It's picked off Clay Springs. Springs on the return puts back at He's gone. Shan Springs his second touchdown return of an interception in as many weeks, and the Seahawks appear to have this one in hand. I could be more excited, uh than to talk to my next guest here and Sean Springs, and you're talking about the corner position. What a person to talked to him and who spent thirteen years agatting done in National Football League and Sean first question, I want to go back to the beginning. When did you first line up on the defensive side of the ball. I gotta imagine, uh, you were playing a little bit offense when you were a youngster. Yeah, in high school, I played both ways. I was running back and receiver in high school, and then I played defensive back obviously when I got to Ohio State. So that's when I became a full time defensive player. For those who don't know, share this a little bit of family background there, because you ended up on the other side of the ball. Then your then your father, Yeah, my dad, Ron played for nine years in the NFL, and he was running back and uh, he was probably the first one to tell me, like running back for down a dozen like and he was like, you need to play defensive back. Maybe you can return kicks and patton college, but for the most part played defensive back. I love it. Talk us through your arrival there not Ohio State in college and the biggest adjustment from high school to college at the corner position and one are some things you felt you really needed to learn to be able to get to get out there and excel as you did. The first day I showed up to the Ohio State I quit man. I called, I called home. I told my dad, I can't cover these receivers. Man, they got walk on running past me. At one walk on his name was Terry Glenn. And then I went up against the starter, his name was Joey Galloway. I was like, I can't keep up with these guys. And you know, there was the adjustment was just you know, when you go to a program like o How State, you have to learn how to compete every day against guys um who who obviously had long careers in NFL at the receiver position and then you know, I had some great corners that I had in my room as well, with Antoine Winfield being one, and a man Plumber and Nate Clements those guys who came through Ohio States. So, um, the biggest thing for when you go to a program like that is, you know, you gotta be able to compete to get on the field. But when you gotta when you get on the field, you have to be able to line up every day and be able to play the technique and go against the best receivers in the country. A right, Sean, when we look at the corner position, when we're evaluating the want of position. You just mentioned some of the great players you played with being a great player yourself, but different body types. You know, you and Antoine Winfields specifically couldn't be any more opposite in terms of what the body type is. So if we're gonna find what do great corners have in common regardless of size, what is it? I think the one thing all great corners have that confidence, the ability to have that self talk and uh talk down doubt. You know, as a cornerback, you know, all the receivers they want to score and they want to take you up top and you know, you could have fifty eight plays that you play in the game that they're great, and two plays you get beat on and everyone says that you had a bad game. So I think, yeah, as a corner, you've got to be able to let things go and be able to respond to come back the next play. When we're doing the evaluation, a lot of times you want to see guys what they do, what they how they function up and press also going to be taking your notes when we get them an off coverage, uh, teaching points or what you should be looking for. We're evaluating, we're watching the guy and press what are some focused points? And we're watching the guy from off coverage, what are some good focus points. When I'm when I'm watching the guy and press, you know, I would like to see how he uses hands. You know, a lot of times guys they're being press coverage, but they're they're soft technique and it's time for soft technique. But they won't get their hands on on the receiver. And I'm I'm off the school of belief. If the receivers lined up or for the way from your leash, you try to jam them in and reroute them and get them into their route as quick as possible. UM, and guys, and you know one thing about playing press coverage, it's not just to stop the receivers, is also get defensive back in position. So the guys who, yeah, you might get your hands on the guy, but what happens if he knocks your hands down? And can you catch up? And can you can you keep yourself in position? When you talk about off coverage, I'd like to see guys who who are patient, who can stay square, who can take their resteps, who canna recognize patterns and be able to make adjustments, uh, and keep their leverage if you're inside leveraty off technique, stay inside. UM. So there's all those type of things that you watch. His a player like am I in the right position all the time because off coverage gives a receiver a lot of opportunity to running in free space. Challenge for for me, over the last few years, it seems like you watch a lot of the college game, you're gonna see a lot of cover four. We see a lot of these outside corners with their butt to the sideline, simply just schiffing and reading through the wide receiver back to the quarterback, and it is a major transition from that style of play versus what they're gonna be asked to do at the NFL level. Um, when you watch the game, when you're watching on Saturdays, have you noticed how that's changed and how more difficult is that transition now with the way the games played in college? Yeah? Well, I think one thing. You know, if you look at the defensive backs in college, most of those guys, you know, they play uh in a scheme that obviously you're going against offenses that you see in a big twelve and pack twelve. And so the game has changed because the way these quarterbacks are coming to the coming into the in college. You know, these guys are throwing at seven on seven and the quarterbacks are advanced coming into college and also into the NFL. So you have to be able to play technique. And it seems to me from what I see, and it's a very few corners who who are able to uh just get after somebody and and and play good technique on a consistent basis. They all seem like they want to make plays and just play within the scheme a little bit. And we use words a lot of times. You guys use it as players, coaches use it. We talked about it and scouting. Um the word transition. If maybe someone's listening to this or watching this and they don't they hear that word, they don't know what it means. Can can you explain that to him? Transition is the ability to be able to close that gap and change directions. I think you know a lot of times, you know, you see corners who can uh who the great ones can accelerate once they plan and drive that foot, they can accelerate and close the distance between themselves and the receiver. Uh, they can get spun around it. They can, and they can get right back on the hip of the receiver. So or guys who are just smoothing and pedal and just everything looks fluids. It's not hercue jerky and all over the play. So that's what I think about when I think about transition. That's beautiful. I want to go back to your era when you play. You mentioned some of those corners you played with it Ohio States, some great corners in the NFL during your time that joined you. But I want to talk about wide receivers that you're going up against and what who gave you some trouble. Who were some of the great wide receivers and why why was it a challenge versus those guys? Yeah, yeah, there was a lot of Uh, there was some great receivers in the air I played and uh, you know one guy or the system that I hated to go against was it was Tory Holt. And those guys are the greatest, which is in modern day football, that the greatest show on turf. But when you talk about Isaac Bruce and Tory Holt and Kurt One of what those guys were doing, they were dangerous with the guy you know, once you were a man covered, you had Marshall Falk out of the back backfield so that offense and just they could make adjustments on the fly. They were explosive. Randy, Randy and t O were the bigger receivers that I love competing against. But they both had their challenges where you know Randy was getting even which he was leaving in Terrell. You know, you know Julio Jones is and Martin Day version of Terrell owns. But you know if you let t O get going and catch the ball and you had to want to tackle them. So, um, those are some of the tougher receivers that I faced. Um, the ones that gave me trouble always seemed to be the smaller guys, the West Walkers, and they were tasting those guys around. Santana Moss, who was my teammate in Washington, I just hated tasting those little guys around, and they moved all over the place. I want to ask him specifically about Winfield. We've been around one one. Yeah, one of the best, uh inside corners that we've seen the NFL in last twenty thirty years. Um, what is it about that? Because when we're evaluating, we have guys on the draft board. Now there's two different columns for outside guys and inside guys. What made him so special is somebody that could play inside. Well, you know, you're right that the nickel position is evolved in the last probably five years. For sure, I can think of announce the nickel spot. But Antoine, you you know what was so unique about Antoine is that he was like a linebacker plan plan and the nickel you could actually take an outside linebacker and put him in there and he could fill in a gap. He could fill the B gap, He could take on a run as well as cover. Uh. He had the quickness to be able to stay with some of the smaller slot receivers, but he also had a physical toughness to be to take on a run in a run game and no doubt and when we look at the game the way it's played right now, one of the themes we've kind of had um in this discussion talking about DBS is the tackling has become more important now maybe than it ever has before. And when you're when you're watching a corner and you're seeing a young corner and there's some people that say, if he doesn't bite as a puppy, he's not gonna bite when he's a big dog. When you're watching, if you've seen guys can do you are you born with that mentality to want to be able to get involved in the run game. Is that something we're talking? Well, I think he can be taught to tackle. Uh. You know, there's there's a certain physical toughness, you know that comes along with playing corner. You know, most people think your job is a taste to receive was around and get the ball, which is seventy of your job, but you also have to be able to bring down the tough running backs. You're donna have to be able to come up and and uh fill the lane on the guy like Ezekiel Elliott. And you have to be able to do it on a consistent basis because now you've got these home run handers, these guys can take it to distance. Um. So you know, I know, I had a great coach in Washington, Greg Williams, who who just taught physical toughness, and he would tell you to go up there and give any expected the corners to make plays. So I think it would be taught. If you didn't, then you would be on the sideline with him. I want to see me and give me a definition here, because you talk to DV coaches around the league and they all have a different way of describing it. But some will say an edge, some will say a swagger. But there's a certain mentality you hinted at it earlier. There's a certain mentality at the corner position. What what is that? What is that psyche like for great corners like yourself, because it seems like you'll have it. Um. I think that the trick is the corners who don't have fear, you know, And I'm talking about spear from a sense of you know that you're going up against the best, and you gotta you gotta welcome that challenge. So you gotta love that challenge. But the guys who are afraid to get beat won't make any plays. So you gotta have the confidence when you go out there. It's like, man, I'm gonna get after this dude, I'm gonna make plays and I'm just gonna be able to line up and have that confidence that you prepared and your technique is there where you can cover anybody. That swagger, confidence, the ability that the self talking and talk to yourself up. You gotta have it. Well, last thing that I'm gonna let you go, I'm just gonna give you an opportunity in this form right now. If you'd like to, you can thank your father for guiding you away from the running back position into the defensive backfield because I think he brought you some extra years there. Oh yeah, he probably brought me like eight more extra years. You know. My dad was the one who said, man, running back to the dying possession, you need to play corner and play a long time and uh, and that the way these guys practiced now the way. You know, the game is fun and it's exciting. I know a lot of people talk about this new era of football when you see Kansas City and then Rams go at it or the Saints, and you know what you see Thomas been doing for the last probably fifteen years. Man, I would have loved to play in this era of football. Man. They're throwing the ball around. Man, they're drawing the ball around. I love you, guy. You gotta go out there and get it. Hey, Sean, Man, thank you so much for your time today, and from your lips to every parent's ears. If your kids an athlete, but put him on the defensive side of the ball, I love it. Make him, make him the next Jalen Ramsey. Man, and I sent him my dad Jalen Ramsey the Danzai Award or somebody like that. Manell their bodies. I love it, man, Hey, thank you so much for your time. That was awesome, Sean. I appreciate it all right, Bucket. It was interesting to me hearing him, uh, you know, kind of comparing the guy like Julio Jones being a modern day Terrell owens Um. You can go back and listen to him talk about the challenge he had at a o whild state going up against some of those wide receivers he had to see in practice. Um Man, how about that when you get Joey Galloway and Terry Glenn. That's a good way to welcome you to college. But that's a good way, and that's why he was really really prepared to succeed and thrive at the next level. I would say my story about Sean Springs going up to Seattle and watching him. You see him come out of the locker room body beautiful, I mean, chisel cut, long arms. Um a guy who was really a thoroughbred on the hoof. He can run, he can challenge you at the line of scrimmage. He had ball skills. He is really really intelligent and kind of knew his role. The big thing for Sean is he was so talented that you're trying to figure out what is the best way to maximize his talent. Should we let him travel, should we keep him on one side, put him at left corner, and let him be the dominant player. He is everything that you were looking for the position, which is why he speaks so well to it. And I thought it was fascinating that his dad Ron Springs had great careers are running back in the National Football League. He admitted he brought him a couple extra years by getting him out of that running back position, getting him to go into the dB room and made the lecture cash in the process. Hats off the pops. All right, we've got We've got Jim Naggy coming up here and just a little bit, but let's get to our next interview with Dennis Thurman. Great player in the NFL, also a tremendous track record as a defensive coordinator as well as a dB coach in the NFL, and you had a chance to catch up with him. You can't talk about defensive football without bringing in one of the best players, one of the best coaches, one of the guys who has been mentored by some great at the position. Dennis Thurman, former defensive coordinator for the Buffalo Bills, also the New York jest anywhere else, I'm anybody else, I miss it, any other sayings all the accolades. All right, so I fluffed you up pretty good. I got you pumped up. But look, Dennis, we want to talk about the cornerback position and what separates the good from the great. So when you think about dbs, what are the essential traits that the great ones have? The great ones always have. Well, first thing, they have a great vision. You have to have tremendous vision. Okay, then you have to have great feet, great hands. When I say hands, it's the ability to get your hands on someone, but also catch the football, the ability to redirect people, understand how to drip people. The ball has to end up on the grounds. Receiver doesn't catch it, you've done your job. But a lot of guys think, hey, I gotta hit the ball. You don't always have to hit the ball as a corner, just meant sure to receiver doesn't catch it. So teaching them how to strip a receiver by getting hands back up under armpits, separating the hands. It's just a lot of different things. But the eyes are first because if you can't see them, if you can't see him, you're not gonna go. You know, you can't go with them. So you have to be able to track them. So you have to have a great vision. Your feet have to get you there, okay, and it really when you're talking about one on one past defense, you play tag, right, it's the greatest tag game. In the history of tag, because if wherever he's running, where do you have to go get them off to the spot. Yeah, you gotta get get where he's going, right, Okay, Well, it's the greatest form of tag there is. All we're doing is paying tag, playing a game of one hand tag. Now kids game. It is a kid's game. So I've always been and told I've always viewed the quarterback position as one where the guy on the perimeter is at the catholic because the only position where you start going backwards before you go forward. Physically, when you're evaluating position, what are you looking for? If we could, we could draw it up? What are you looking for? Quick feet balanced his ability to mirror someone as quickly as the guys moving forward. You have to be able to mirror him going backwards just as just as well. And if a guy can't do that, he's not gonna have a chance to play dB. Okay, you can. You can teach him different techniques. You can teach them how to get up there and press bail. You can teach him to get up there and just press all day. But there's times where you have to be able to play off and mirror a receiver running backwards as fast as he is running forward. And if you can't do that, you're gonna struggle to play dB over a long period of time. So for for so long, in recent years, we we've seen this trend where people go from smaller corners to now want a bigger corner. Um having been a guy that is coached both, what are the differences with a big corner and those small nickel type coins. Well, the bigger corner is gonna give you an opportunity. Well, the one of the biggest corners, he's a Hall of Famer that ever senting, was Mel Blunt. Mel Blunt was like six four twohundred five pounds two and ten pounds before it was even popular guys that size you to play outside linebacker. And all he did was grab guys and throw him in the gatorade, okay, and had a tremendous amount of success. And so in the big corner back then, it was about the physicality. Now it's the longer angular corner that you're looking at. From Mike Haines to Antonio Cromarty's, the Richard Sherman's, even even Josh Norman at Washington, those guys have length. Okay, you don't necessarily have to be the fastest when you're long, because your your length helps you in terms of can you get the ball over me? Can you get the ball by me? Because I now can reach and stretch, as opposed to a shorter corner who does not have that, who needs to have tremendous speed allied Darryl Green. Okay, darl Green came in with world class speed and he was able to just run with any and everybody. But at one point he had to learn how to use his speed because when he was younger, he just ran fast all the time. Once he learned how to use this speed, that's when he became the Hall of Famer. That he became so little smaller corners because you talked about the big corners and how they have to play. When you have a small corner and you're having to put him in and maybe has to play inside and nickel or at the slot, what does he have to have if he's an undersized player to be able to succeed tremendous tremendous quickness, Because when you're in that slot, you're now dealing with someone who has a three way go on you and when I say that the outside corner always most of the time, he thinks, well, depending on his split, he's either gonna go inside or outside or deep. When I'm dealing with that slot receiver, he can go inside, outside, or deep on me anytime he wants to because he has more space to work with. So if he doesn't have tremendous short area quickness and underneath quickness, he will struggle on that slot. Okay, So we've had this conversation privately, but I want to kind of bring it to air. Your nickel corner, your slot corner. Are you in the camp that that guy needs to be your best corner? Are you just saying that's where we put the small guy? No, he it can it can be. We we wrestled in New York early with putting the rail at that position. Yes, but he was so good outside that we didn't want to mess with Durrell And then when we got chro Marty. That was one of the reasons why we drafted Kyle Wilson because Kyle had the short area quickness and speed underneath that we were looking for and we didn't have to mess with our two premier corners that we had outside and by drafting Kyle, we were saying we had what we needed outside, let's find that guy inside if we moved the rail. Now Durrell is doing what we're asking him to do because there's no doubt we feel like he could have played on the slot, but now that outside, we felt like we would have weakened ourselves and we didn't want to do that. It's always easy to help a slot corner than it is helping an outside corner when you're playing against eleven person Noel, So now you brought up the real Reevers his name, and in two thousand and nine, some would say he might have had the best corner, best season ever for a cornerback. They were talking about he maybe the shutdown corner. It's only been a couple of those guys and dents in the real Reevers. What made the real Reevers the prototype at his position during his prom well, he his balance. When the first thing I noticed about him was his balance. He didn't get He was never off balanced. There was not one time in that two thousand and nine season where I felt like he was out of position or he wasn't in a position to make a play. Tremendous feet tremendous patients. He could get his hands on any receiver. But it wasn't just one hand. He could get both of his hands on the receiver. He rerouted guys and made them go where he wanted them to go, not where they wanted to go. And then people thought it was just the mirage. Okay, we just got you know what, he had a good game last week, so we're gonna get No, he had a good game that No, he just kept having putting back back to back, back to back, back to back great games. He was the reason why we went to the championship game in two thousand and nine and two thousand and ten. Without him, we don't go. We were able to put to put him on whoever we wanted to, and then we we took the other ten guys and we we did what we had to do to stop the other team's offense. But he gave us that type of flexibility to do that, and it was It was truly one of the greatest or two of the greatest seasons we've we've we've seen in a long time. Well, now I know you're still close to the game, you still watch the game. So if you had to pick a young guy, a guy that is currently playing right now. It's kind of like the new prototype. Who would be a young guy? What about Jayla Ramsey mation the prototype? Well, he because he's physical, he's long, he's angular, he's fast, he can he can change direction. He has an excellent ball ball skills. Just stop talking. Work. He didn't need to talk. Let your play. Do you're talking? Okay? Last year before he had a phenomenal year. Okay, where did where did Jacksonville go? And he went forward? He went to champions. When you have a truly great corner, he can he can lead your defense. Okay, he needs to just play. Last year he started doing what talking. Yeah, quarterbacks can't do this. Quarterbacks do. Just play. You you're tremendous football player. Go play the game. Lead your defense because he has that type of ability. Stephanie Gilmore has had two great years in New England. Oh, Stepford Gilmore, Jalen Ramsey. Okay, so I'm trying to figure out, let's not I can't let you go because there's a guy who was at one point the prototype that I don't think a lot of people really recognized or gave him a love credit Chris McAllister. You coached him in Baltimore. People are not familiar with Chris mc kelly. Just talk about Chris mcklsey and what Chris mc kellister did to kind of put his impact on the league as a shutdown corner. Because when Chris came out out of the University of Arizona, Chris was a top ten pick. I believe he was a tenth player picked in first round. The Ravens picked him. Chris was big, fast as a goal I mean just when you look at him. He said, man, how you're not playing corner, you're playing safety. You're playing outside linebacker. But his ability to change direction for a guy his size was uncanny. I just I sat there and I said, uh, you're not supposed to do this. But what Chris began to do and all I whispered to Chris was a little man wins. And he said, why do you keep telling me that? So you're playing too high? And he looked at me. He said, all right, man, I'm getting ready to do what you said. And he started doing it and he started having success, and he was like, man, this stuff works. Chris. You can change direction, but you're you're playing too high. Get down lower, and it was harder for him because six one six one and a half pounds when Chris I believe when Chris retired, Christal by two eighteen pounds as a corner, but he could still play the position, but he was playing it too high. He began to have success when he sank his body and allowed his natural gifts to take over. Chris began to go to the Pro Bowl. He was shutting that guys down. They were getting one, two, three catches a game. People weren't recognizing him for it because Dion was still playing okay, so he kind of got pushed to the back. And we had Ray Lewis and we had Ed Reid, and we had Terrell Sucks, and we had tremendous names on our defense. But Chris allowed us to do some of the things that Darrell allowed us to do. Okay, when we went when we were in Baltimore, and then we just took it the same and when we got to New York, we let Durell do those things. All right, I said one more, but now I do have a final one because this You never really talked about your playing career. I've never seen your on TV talk about I've never heard you already to talk about it, so I kind of want to talk about it because you had an opportunity to play in Dallas, and that secondary with you. Everson Walls, Uh, some record with a number of interceptions or whatever. Hundred and fifty how many how many years? Bete, hundred and fifty interception year. That's unbelievable. So what I want to talk about because Everson Walls, Um, it's still up consideration for the Hall of Fame. Everything wasn't wasn't a fast guy. How can you be a successful corner in this league when you're not fast? Tremendous eyes. He had tremendous eyes. And that's why I keep going with eyes. The first he could read routes. He didn't he didn't have to play press. If you don't play press, you have to have what great vision? He had tremendous vision. He could read routes, He understood route patterns, he understood body language. He I mean when he taught me about watching receivers, how they break the huddle. Okay, they're pulling on their gloves, you know, are they you know? Do they look down or they're looking up? Because a lot of times receivers will tip off when they might be getting the ball or when it's a pass. So there were things that we had tradeoffs. Okay, because I helped him with learning the overall defense, but everything. Had tremendous ball skills, but more importantly, he had tremendous eyes, and that that was his strength. He always played to that. You go watch tape, you'll never see him in press. He don't think he ever gotten pressed unless we were playing too man, okay, because he had a he had a great ability to read the quarterback and understand route patterns and combinations. He took one interception from me on a slant. I swear to god, I guys running a slant and he broke on the ball before I did. And he just my hands are here, and somebody's hands they were his. I said, man, what hell? You said? Man? I just saw it. What can you say? What can you say? Oh? Man, you have said enough. Thanks for joining the Mood of six podcast giving us an education on the prototypes at the corner of back position. Well, Bucket was neat listening to that conversation. You can definitely tell um somebody who I've known DT a little bit, but you can definitely tell you guys have a nice, nice relationship there. You guys have known each other for a long time. I learned so much about football from him, in fact, I mean just we we have these weekly conversations where he just kind of continues to enlighten me on the game. And I think the big thing with thein is is how he talks about like everyone can't handle it on the perimeter and the fact that he was able to coach the real reevers and the things separated Reeves from some of the other guys, uh, not only the physical skills uh that he displayed, but the toughness and the willingness to really uh buy into practice and doing all those other things. I think the real reeves his ability to be a lockdown corner. To me, he is the prototype because we haven't seen many that have been really able to shut down one half of the field without assistance from a safe And my notebook im run out of room to write after that conversation with DT A lot of knowledge he was dropping on us right there all right. Next interview Jim Naggy and we talked about it at the top. Buck one of the more respected evaluators who decided to uh leave the the NFL game after being a very successful executive on the scouting side of things, to go take over the Reese's Senior Bowl, but still constantly watching tape and up on the latest trends at the position. Here's my conversation with Jim Naggy. All right, Jim, let's talk about some some cornerbacks. Now. I was looking at the cornerback position and and maybe how that's evolved just from when you began scouting to where we are now. What has chain what's more important now? The way the game is played versus when you started. I think length like any position. I think when I was getting into scouting, DJ, you and I are about the same time there. Just you hear length, length, length a lot more than you when you ever did when we were breaking in, you know, in the early two thousands. Um. I think that the success that they had in Seattle with with Richard Sherman and Browner and some of these longer corners, I think that's, uh, you know, that's been huge at the position. I just go back to this year's Senior Bowl game. UM, you know, contacting teams and reaching out and trying to get feedback about our rosters with with the NFL teams, it was like, bigger guys, the better. You know, bring as many long corners as you can um. But again, you know, you also have to be mindful of the teams to play a lot of off man coverage because those longer guys are going to struggle in that. So there are teams like the Patriots and in Houston teams that uh, you know, coming from that New England model where they play a lot of off man where you need transition skills. You need to you need to have that transition quickness and reactionary athleticism and the top of a route to mirror. So again it's kind of like two different packages. But I do think that heightened length is at a premium when you look at that, and some teams obviously employ their corners differently. We talked about the wide receiver position and Coach bill I used to always mention it and mentioned on our Wide Receiver episode about building a basketball team having guys that can do different things. Uh, smaller guys a power forward to point guard. When you look at the secondary now with so many teams using motions and shifts and getting freeing up these wide receivers where some of these bigger, longer corners can't get on them. Um, what about building a basketball team in the secondary where you have some of those big guys that can match up, but also you're gonna have weeks where you're seeing Antonio Brown, uh and maybe having somebody where the change of direction of the fluid he might be a little more important. Yeah, I think that. Again, I'm drawing on my own experience. But you go back to the Seahawks over the last couple of years. At one point we had all our corners for six ft over guys with you know, thirty two and a half inch arms, and you get in the Super Bowl against the Patriots and you know you got Edelman, you know, turning guys inside out. You know, we we had to play with Harold Sickman in the slot, a little bit longer guy. Really wasn't fair, you know. I mean it's a big, longer guy. You can't match up and change direction with a guy like Wes Welker. So now you've seen the last couple of years that played with Justin Coleman inside Who's who's a smaller corner just signed a big deal with the Lions this offseason and Justin played great in there, you know, But and then we always had Cam Chancellor for the tight end. UM kind of feel like you know, we were we were big across the board, and I think even the Seahawks is grounded Pete as coach Carroll is in playing with a bigger defense. He made that adjustment to go to a guy like Justin Coleman. Did you guys do anything on your board for any of the teams? I know everybody you know has a Nickel slaughter star slot where you want to call it, and then they have outside guys. Has there been more specialization just in talking to people around league and your experience of saying, hey, these are kind of our press corners, these are some of the off corners. A way to designate them on the board when you're trying to set up and get ready for the draft. Yeah, we actually created a Nickel column which we never had before. Um for those guys, for those smaller under size guys that we knew if they had to play outside they might struggle in our scheme. Um, but for what we would be asking them to do in the slot, they were perfect. And again not not a total scheme fit, every down scheme fit, but as much subdowns as as teams are in. Now, Um, that guy is gonna be on the field six at the time, so we had to account for that. So it kind of created a nickel position. And then I think what you're also seeing is a lot of teams trying to use safeties as in the nickel spot. So just in Latin this past year's draft, you see he Rattalie from Delaware. Um, you know who went to the Chargers. I think he was a perfect example. Jakwon Johnson from Miami. I mean, there was a bunch of a bunch of guys in that Vane Darnell Savage to the Packers in the first round. Um, just because you can mix and match in the secondary. So you're seeing a lot more seeing a lot more safety nickel versatility than you ever saw, you know, ten fifteen years ago. All I want to place you in the draft room because I'm curious to see how you handle this one. You you go out, you find a player, you love his personality, you love his temperament. Uh, character checks out. It's great. Uh he's explosive. Um, he's fluid, but he can't find the football. Do you lobby for that player or are you a buyer beware on that player? Well, I think that depends on who you're who you're scouting for, and you gotta know your your head coach and Pete Carroll m it's all about the ball in Seattle, So that would have been that would have been a tough sell with coach Carroll. Guy that couldn't find and play the ball, because again, I think it goes back to uh, that's that's almost an inherent trait. Well at least at least the you know places up ben that that's something that's really hard to coach, being able to get your head around find the football. That's why going back and finding guys with a baseball background that maybe played some outfield, played some center field, used to tracking a football. Um, you know, there's a lot of things that can be developed. We've just found over time that's that's a difficult thing to to develop. It's one thing when they're seeing in front and they can jump routes and break on the ball and make place in front, but it's those plays down the field, the plays that count, those explosive plays that they can't make. That play down the field. Um at some point or another that's gonna really lost your football team all our last one. Then we'll let you run here. Just the importance of tackling at the position with the way the game is played now versus maybe ten fifteen years ago. Yeah, I think that. I think the cliche is that you pay corners to cover um, but at some point they're gonna have to tackle too. I mean, I know you've worked for teams where you might be in a situation where your corners have to come up and make that tackle in a big game and they don't get the guy in the ground. Again, you don't you don't need to be the most physical guy, but you have to be willing, right, it's hard to it's hard to sell a dB in a draft room for a guy that that lacks toughness, you know, and again not to you know, won't call out any particular player, but there have been some players over the years that I've loved his coverage guys, And and you know, the coaches are the ones that have to coach these guys, and they're the ones who's next are on the line on Sunday, so they more more than scouts. Almost I feel like coaches are the ones that want to see the toughness in DBS and just finding the willingness. They might not be big and strong, but at least come up and cut and try to get a guy in the ground. Um, you have to see that at minimum. Yeah. To me, I just look at and think it's it's maybe more important now than it's ever been, just because of all the quick game, the perimeter game that we've seen from the college game from Saturday's kind of seep into Sunday football with you've got bubble screens, you've got fly sweeps. It just seems like those guys they're gonna get found. If you can't tackle and you're playing the corner position, whether you're inside or outside, eventually the ball is gonna find. You're gonna get yourself some trouble. Yeah, especially if the nickel spot. That's a really good point, do you ja the nickel spot. We always felt like if you had a guy in there that was that was on the softer side, they're gonna check ron and find that guy, um and run at him. So yeah, that's that's absolutely the case. Dude. I can't thank you enough for your time. Man, it's awesome stuff. I really appreciate you, Bud Buck. The thing that jumped out to me about that conversation is just knowing what you want. You know, some position coaches and some organizations are gonna favor different attributes more so than others. And to me, you got to know what you're shopping for. And he had a great example there in Seattle, and you'd watch those big, tall, long corners to be a little bit stiff, didn't worry about it. They could play in that defense because they can all people on the perimeter. And I think that was the thing that Seattle really uh did very very well. They knew exactly what they wanted on the perimeter. They were okay with the warts and the issue that showed up in some of those players because the rewards were the ability to be able to snuff out bigger receivers, being able to match up and lock it down and really make tight window throws kind of the norm when you face that defense, and he is right there, when you have bigger corners you have to deal with um have a plan for dealing with the shifty eyes. And that's why somewhere when you're building your room, you may have a place for a smaller, quicker dB that could play for them, a guy like a walk to Thurman and Deshan and some of those other guys they've been able to play, Which brings us to our next part of the episode here where we have to come up with a prototype if we're entering this upcoming season here that is upon us and trying to find a prototype with everything we've learned today. Who is you know? It's This is a tough one for me, but I'm gonna go in a difference. I'm gonna go with Marcus Peters. And the reason prototype is because Marcus, ever, you know what you're gonna do. Man, I think I know you, but who are you? Are you? I like turnovers. I like turnovers. So with Marcus Peters. The reason why Marcus Peters to me is the prototype is because he's long, he's ranging. When he was in college, look he could go up and he could press. But what he's become as a pro, He's become a guy that is a terrific route reader. Like people will say that he's a gambler, but I believe he is a calculator risk take, and I think those risks turned into big rewards for the defense. So yes, he may give up a play, but he is going to make more plays than he ever gives up, and those plays are gonna lead to points because their takeaways. I thought, I knew you man, it's Jalen Ramsey. Uh, You've always loved You've been a Jay guy from the jump. I love him. Remember, by the way, when he was coming out and some folks were saying he wouldn't be remember that. I do remember. Remember those conversations on Twitter. I remember some big people, big people at other networks saying that raise your hand if you doubt of Jalen Ramsey went, whatever me and you don't have the hands out in there in our lap. Right now he's been Look, I mean, look, Jalen Ramsey is certainly a prototype. Jalen Ramsey is a prototype in terms of world class athlete high i Q, very competitive, can come up, play nose to nose and do all the things that you want to see from a press corner. We don't see him play off as much, but he's certainly capable of doing it and the feistiness you want. I think from a prototypical standpoint, though, like are you are? You are you comfortable with, that's your coach. He's gonna be able to handle that kind of strong personality, strong coach. I got a strong coach. But can I give you a bonus name, because I would say Jalen Ramsey. Maybe Paul Long athletic can do everything? Uh dense alward with the way the games played right now going forward. No, he's not the biggest guy in the world, but give me you talk about competitiveness and ball skills are two things that harped on at the beginning. Check check um and as somebody who might not be the biggest guy, he can play big, he can't play big. He's shown that play big. And the other thing is, I know people taking the task a little bit because he got dinged up a little bit coming up trying to tackle whatever. But to me, he is a willing tackler and that was the biggest issue. Hey, would he come up? Will he come over strike people when he has an opportunity on the perimeter. Well, he's been able to do that. And then you get the ball skills, the athleticism, uh, the ability to really blanket elite receivers Denz Award. It's fascinating. I think The funny thing in those three guys that we name totally different, completely different styles, and so beauty is really in the eye of the beholder. You have to match up your prototypical corner with the scheme that you want to play in your for your organization. No doubt, this has been a fun episode, man, learn a lot about the cornerback position. It's been a fun series. And this is gonna wrap up the series again. If you're just checking this episode out and you want more, We've got more. We've got the quarterbacks, running backs, wide receivers, tight end, offensive line, edge rushers. Uh, those are all out there those episodes NFL dot com, slash mts Prototype and the folks can get the entire series book. It's it's really been a lot of fun and and selfishly, I feel like we've been saying this consistently selfishly as much as I hope that the people like it. It was kind of for us just to continue to learn and grow. Yeah, to continue to learn and grow. I mean to talk about notebooks being full all kinds of knows, but really the conversations lead you to think about positions in a different way. How you value certain traits. Uh, This has been a fascinating series. Uh. I'm just really glad that the responses that we've been able to receive on Twitter at how people have received it really, really well, and how people in the business have talked about how it's even helped them hone there when it comes to looking at certain things, no doubt. And if you haven't already, do us a favorite subscribe to the Movie Sticks Podcast. We're gonna have a bunch of great content like this coming your way. We are excited about the plans we have for the fall and as we go through this NFL season and March towards the NFL Draft. We've got you covered right here on Move the Sticks. All right, Buck, that's gonna do it for us. Anything else you want to add before we get out of here. No, it's been a fantastic series. I hope everyone goes back and checks all of our prototypes in this series. There you go. Thank you guys for listening to Move the Sticks presented by New Era. Thanks for downloading Move the Sticks with Daniel Jeremiah and Bucky Brooks. For more, go to n f L dot com Slash Podcasts
Speaker 1: And now Move the Sticks with Daniel Jeremiah and Bucky Brooks. What's up, everybody, Welcome to Move the Sticks, presented by New Era DJ Bucky back here on the MTS Position Prototype Series finale episode today, Buck. Yeah, I mean it's been a fantastic uh series. I've said it many times. I feel like this is really enhanced and elevated my knowledge based on all these positions. Being able to talk to you not only great players at the position, with guys who have coached a position or guys who have evaluated position from a high level. Um, it has really allowed me to rethink how we evaluate it. So I'm excited to talk about these cornerbacks to that. Yeah. Again, you did a nice job of explaining there, Buck, But this has been a series where we've been able to go position by position and talk to all those folks you just mentioned and not only you know what should we be looking for in the position right now what matters, but also I've enjoyed the aspect of it of what's to come, what's the future of this position, because this is a game that continues to change and evolve. Now, Goff with three to the left takes the tap Harmon out blets go off, throws into the right Gilmour's they're intercepted at the four fires for the middle of the field that Paul has picked off by Jalen Ramsey and the end zone. What a play by Jalen. He made up ground and he picked it off in the middle of the end zone. It is ros Here's a blets by Sherman coming off the corner and it's Richard Sherman who gets a sack. Roethlisberger stand in the pocket, throws across the round and null intercepted Chris Harris Jr. Second straight week with a thick interception. We have a couple of good people to come on. We got a number three overall pick, Seawan Spring, someone who was with the Seattle Seahawks when I was there working longtime defensive back coach, Dennis Thurman, dB coach and defensive coordinator. He has been in the league, was a great player also with the Dallas Cowboys. And then we also have former Patriots and Seahawks scout and current executive director of the Reese's Senior Bowl Jim Naggy to discuss the position. So a lot of conversation, a lot of insight can't wait to kind of tackle to the subject with these guys. Yeah, it's kind of a sad day going here for the h the last episode in the series. But if you've missed any of them, NFL dot com slash MTS prototype. So that's NFL dot Com slash MTS prototype. You can find the entire series where you've gone quarterback, running back, receiver, tight end, offensive line, UH, and edge rushers. Those episodes are all there for you to check out. So before we get to these interviews, I thought we'd kind of kick around our ideas. So what we feel is important when we're evaluating this position. Go ahead, Buck. So the first thing that I look for at the position UH is crazy because it's really not anything physical. Is really all mental. I'm looking for a high i Q football player, a guy who is um understands the position and plays the game what I call the right way. He understands down in distance, he understands where he's supposed to fit, he understands how to play with leverage. When you watch the tape, you can tell that he understands hash split rule, meaning he knows where the receiver is about to run based on where the ball is near the hash all of those things. So I want a high i Q player. I want someone who is also doesn't have to be the greatest athlete, but he has to have good movement skills. He has to be fluid able, to redirect, able to kind of stay with some of those special athletes that are on the edge. And finally, in my estimation, he has to have outstanding ball skills. This is a league that is built on turnovers. The guys who went to turnover margin simply consistently win games. So I want someone on the perimeter it is able to generate takeaway so when the ball is errant, is a tip, it's an overthrow, or they make a play, they come down with it. There's a huge difference in this league and guys they get interceptions and guys that just registered breakups. I want the guys that are the ball hawks. So we've done this and that's great. I We've done this trying to come up with two or three attributes that we really really trying to focus in this position. I've I've thought about this and how to you know, how do you say which three? This is what I've come up with. Buck. There's like a gateway right to get into the to get into the door, and the evaluation process we talked about in quarterbacks right then enough arm strength, enough athletic ability. So for me, you know, the quickness, the speed, the fluidity, like, just be at an acceptable range for those. Okay, that's that's to get into the evaluation process. If you don't have those, we can't really evaluate you. But then to me, this is there's a lot of people that fit that criteria. They've got enough speed, they got enough quickness, they got enough fluidity. To me, these are the two things that when I look back at guys I've missed on and trying to learn and grow. The two things now that I am more passionate about than I've ever been at this position. Uh. To me is ball skills. What you mentioned, can you play the ball if you find it. If a player cannot find the ball in college, trust me, he is not going to find it magically when he gets to the NFL. So ball skills is number one, and number two is competitiveness. And competitiveness shows up in a variety of ways. It shows up on those balls. It shows up when your beat can you recover? It shows up when you've got to get off a block and make a play. With all the bubble screens and fly sweeps that we're seeing now, I think it used to be kind of funny. We used to joke about it. Hey, we pay him to cover. Those days are over. Man, With the way that the quick passing game is now and the way the ball is getting the perimeter, you can't tackle. It's tough to play in this league right now. You have to be able to tackle. It's one of those things when we're talking about three attributes. You don't do that. But I think your overall toughness kind of embodies all of that, Like you have to be tough and competitive, and if you're a competitive guy, you're not going to let people run around and dance on the perimeter without hitting them and getting them to the ground. The ball skills, I mean, it goes without mentioning that you have to be able to turn the ball over. Guys who are able to really rack up big turnover numbers their their difference because their game changes, and so um. I ultimately want to look for what I call the catholte, a guy who has size, speed, athleticism, explosive nousts who's a technician who has a high i Q, who also has those other traits when it comes to being a ball hawk. Now I'm with you, all right, We've let's get to these conversations. We've got some good ones coming up here. UH. Dennis Sturman, who had a chance to work with in Baltimore. You've known DT forever for a long time, played against him and played against his team SC and college UM and then he's become one of my dearest friend. He is an outstanding UH coach does a great job of really talking about this defensive back. You know, we're gonna get to him in a minute. We're also gonna get to Jim Naggy, who you mentioned, who's been around some great dbs. One of the dbs UH that we're gonna talk to first though. Jim Naggy spent some time working with in New England Patriots. A guy who found some time with the New England Patriots as well as a team that you were with with the Seattle Seahawks. UH top ten pick in an outstanding pro Shawn Springs coming out of Ohio State, big reputation lived up to it in the league. Here's our conversation. I had a chance to visit with Shawn Springs. Let's coming, Plumber. It's picked off Clay Springs. Springs on the return puts back at He's gone. Shan Springs his second touchdown return of an interception in as many weeks, and the Seahawks appear to have this one in hand. I could be more excited, uh than to talk to my next guest here and Sean Springs, and you're talking about the corner position. What a person to talked to him and who spent thirteen years agatting done in National Football League and Sean first question, I want to go back to the beginning. When did you first line up on the defensive side of the ball. I gotta imagine, uh, you were playing a little bit offense when you were a youngster. Yeah, in high school, I played both ways. I was running back and receiver in high school, and then I played defensive back obviously when I got to Ohio State. So that's when I became a full time defensive player. For those who don't know, share this a little bit of family background there, because you ended up on the other side of the ball. Then your then your father, Yeah, my dad, Ron played for nine years in the NFL, and he was running back and uh, he was probably the first one to tell me, like running back for down a dozen like and he was like, you need to play defensive back. Maybe you can return kicks and patton college, but for the most part played defensive back. I love it. Talk us through your arrival there not Ohio State in college and the biggest adjustment from high school to college at the corner position and one are some things you felt you really needed to learn to be able to get to get out there and excel as you did. The first day I showed up to the Ohio State I quit man. I called, I called home. I told my dad, I can't cover these receivers. Man, they got walk on running past me. At one walk on his name was Terry Glenn. And then I went up against the starter, his name was Joey Galloway. I was like, I can't keep up with these guys. And you know, there was the adjustment was just you know, when you go to a program like o How State, you have to learn how to compete every day against guys um who who obviously had long careers in NFL at the receiver position and then you know, I had some great corners that I had in my room as well, with Antoine Winfield being one, and a man Plumber and Nate Clements those guys who came through Ohio States. So, um, the biggest thing for when you go to a program like that is, you know, you gotta be able to compete to get on the field. But when you gotta when you get on the field, you have to be able to line up every day and be able to play the technique and go against the best receivers in the country. A right, Sean, when we look at the corner position, when we're evaluating the want of position. You just mentioned some of the great players you played with being a great player yourself, but different body types. You know, you and Antoine Winfields specifically couldn't be any more opposite in terms of what the body type is. So if we're gonna find what do great corners have in common regardless of size, what is it? I think the one thing all great corners have that confidence, the ability to have that self talk and uh talk down doubt. You know, as a cornerback, you know, all the receivers they want to score and they want to take you up top and you know, you could have fifty eight plays that you play in the game that they're great, and two plays you get beat on and everyone says that you had a bad game. So I think, yeah, as a corner, you've got to be able to let things go and be able to respond to come back the next play. When we're doing the evaluation, a lot of times you want to see guys what they do, what they how they function up and press also going to be taking your notes when we get them an off coverage, uh, teaching points or what you should be looking for. We're evaluating, we're watching the guy and press what are some focused points? And we're watching the guy from off coverage, what are some good focus points. When I'm when I'm watching the guy and press, you know, I would like to see how he uses hands. You know, a lot of times guys they're being press coverage, but they're they're soft technique and it's time for soft technique. But they won't get their hands on on the receiver. And I'm I'm off the school of belief. If the receivers lined up or for the way from your leash, you try to jam them in and reroute them and get them into their route as quick as possible. UM, and guys, and you know one thing about playing press coverage, it's not just to stop the receivers, is also get defensive back in position. So the guys who, yeah, you might get your hands on the guy, but what happens if he knocks your hands down? And can you catch up? And can you can you keep yourself in position? When you talk about off coverage, I'd like to see guys who who are patient, who can stay square, who can take their resteps, who canna recognize patterns and be able to make adjustments, uh, and keep their leverage if you're inside leveraty off technique, stay inside. UM. So there's all those type of things that you watch. His a player like am I in the right position all the time because off coverage gives a receiver a lot of opportunity to running in free space. Challenge for for me, over the last few years, it seems like you watch a lot of the college game, you're gonna see a lot of cover four. We see a lot of these outside corners with their butt to the sideline, simply just schiffing and reading through the wide receiver back to the quarterback, and it is a major transition from that style of play versus what they're gonna be asked to do at the NFL level. Um, when you watch the game, when you're watching on Saturdays, have you noticed how that's changed and how more difficult is that transition now with the way the games played in college? Yeah? Well, I think one thing. You know, if you look at the defensive backs in college, most of those guys, you know, they play uh in a scheme that obviously you're going against offenses that you see in a big twelve and pack twelve. And so the game has changed because the way these quarterbacks are coming to the coming into the in college. You know, these guys are throwing at seven on seven and the quarterbacks are advanced coming into college and also into the NFL. So you have to be able to play technique. And it seems to me from what I see, and it's a very few corners who who are able to uh just get after somebody and and and play good technique on a consistent basis. They all seem like they want to make plays and just play within the scheme a little bit. And we use words a lot of times. You guys use it as players, coaches use it. We talked about it and scouting. Um the word transition. If maybe someone's listening to this or watching this and they don't they hear that word, they don't know what it means. Can can you explain that to him? Transition is the ability to be able to close that gap and change directions. I think you know a lot of times, you know, you see corners who can uh who the great ones can accelerate once they plan and drive that foot, they can accelerate and close the distance between themselves and the receiver. Uh, they can get spun around it. They can, and they can get right back on the hip of the receiver. So or guys who are just smoothing and pedal and just everything looks fluids. It's not hercue jerky and all over the play. So that's what I think about when I think about transition. That's beautiful. I want to go back to your era when you play. You mentioned some of those corners you played with it Ohio States, some great corners in the NFL during your time that joined you. But I want to talk about wide receivers that you're going up against and what who gave you some trouble. Who were some of the great wide receivers and why why was it a challenge versus those guys? Yeah, yeah, there was a lot of Uh, there was some great receivers in the air I played and uh, you know one guy or the system that I hated to go against was it was Tory Holt. And those guys are the greatest, which is in modern day football, that the greatest show on turf. But when you talk about Isaac Bruce and Tory Holt and Kurt One of what those guys were doing, they were dangerous with the guy you know, once you were a man covered, you had Marshall Falk out of the back backfield so that offense and just they could make adjustments on the fly. They were explosive. Randy, Randy and t O were the bigger receivers that I love competing against. But they both had their challenges where you know Randy was getting even which he was leaving in Terrell. You know, you know Julio Jones is and Martin Day version of Terrell owns. But you know if you let t O get going and catch the ball and you had to want to tackle them. So, um, those are some of the tougher receivers that I faced. Um, the ones that gave me trouble always seemed to be the smaller guys, the West Walkers, and they were tasting those guys around. Santana Moss, who was my teammate in Washington, I just hated tasting those little guys around, and they moved all over the place. I want to ask him specifically about Winfield. We've been around one one. Yeah, one of the best, uh inside corners that we've seen the NFL in last twenty thirty years. Um, what is it about that? Because when we're evaluating, we have guys on the draft board. Now there's two different columns for outside guys and inside guys. What made him so special is somebody that could play inside. Well, you know, you're right that the nickel position is evolved in the last probably five years. For sure, I can think of announce the nickel spot. But Antoine, you you know what was so unique about Antoine is that he was like a linebacker plan plan and the nickel you could actually take an outside linebacker and put him in there and he could fill in a gap. He could fill the B gap, He could take on a run as well as cover. Uh. He had the quickness to be able to stay with some of the smaller slot receivers, but he also had a physical toughness to be to take on a run in a run game and no doubt and when we look at the game the way it's played right now, one of the themes we've kind of had um in this discussion talking about DBS is the tackling has become more important now maybe than it ever has before. And when you're when you're watching a corner and you're seeing a young corner and there's some people that say, if he doesn't bite as a puppy, he's not gonna bite when he's a big dog. When you're watching, if you've seen guys can do you are you born with that mentality to want to be able to get involved in the run game. Is that something we're talking? Well, I think he can be taught to tackle. Uh. You know, there's there's a certain physical toughness, you know that comes along with playing corner. You know, most people think your job is a taste to receive was around and get the ball, which is seventy of your job, but you also have to be able to bring down the tough running backs. You're donna have to be able to come up and and uh fill the lane on the guy like Ezekiel Elliott. And you have to be able to do it on a consistent basis because now you've got these home run handers, these guys can take it to distance. Um. So you know, I know, I had a great coach in Washington, Greg Williams, who who just taught physical toughness, and he would tell you to go up there and give any expected the corners to make plays. So I think it would be taught. If you didn't, then you would be on the sideline with him. I want to see me and give me a definition here, because you talk to DV coaches around the league and they all have a different way of describing it. But some will say an edge, some will say a swagger. But there's a certain mentality you hinted at it earlier. There's a certain mentality at the corner position. What what is that? What is that psyche like for great corners like yourself, because it seems like you'll have it. Um. I think that the trick is the corners who don't have fear, you know, And I'm talking about spear from a sense of you know that you're going up against the best, and you gotta you gotta welcome that challenge. So you gotta love that challenge. But the guys who are afraid to get beat won't make any plays. So you gotta have the confidence when you go out there. It's like, man, I'm gonna get after this dude, I'm gonna make plays and I'm just gonna be able to line up and have that confidence that you prepared and your technique is there where you can cover anybody. That swagger, confidence, the ability that the self talking and talk to yourself up. You gotta have it. Well, last thing that I'm gonna let you go, I'm just gonna give you an opportunity in this form right now. If you'd like to, you can thank your father for guiding you away from the running back position into the defensive backfield because I think he brought you some extra years there. Oh yeah, he probably brought me like eight more extra years. You know. My dad was the one who said, man, running back to the dying possession, you need to play corner and play a long time and uh, and that the way these guys practiced now the way. You know, the game is fun and it's exciting. I know a lot of people talk about this new era of football when you see Kansas City and then Rams go at it or the Saints, and you know what you see Thomas been doing for the last probably fifteen years. Man, I would have loved to play in this era of football. Man. They're throwing the ball around. Man, they're drawing the ball around. I love you, guy. You gotta go out there and get it. Hey, Sean, Man, thank you so much for your time today, and from your lips to every parent's ears. If your kids an athlete, but put him on the defensive side of the ball, I love it. Make him, make him the next Jalen Ramsey. Man, and I sent him my dad Jalen Ramsey the Danzai Award or somebody like that. Manell their bodies. I love it, man, Hey, thank you so much for your time. That was awesome, Sean. I appreciate it all right, Bucket. It was interesting to me hearing him, uh, you know, kind of comparing the guy like Julio Jones being a modern day Terrell owens Um. You can go back and listen to him talk about the challenge he had at a o whild state going up against some of those wide receivers he had to see in practice. Um Man, how about that when you get Joey Galloway and Terry Glenn. That's a good way to welcome you to college. But that's a good way, and that's why he was really really prepared to succeed and thrive at the next level. I would say my story about Sean Springs going up to Seattle and watching him. You see him come out of the locker room body beautiful, I mean, chisel cut, long arms. Um a guy who was really a thoroughbred on the hoof. He can run, he can challenge you at the line of scrimmage. He had ball skills. He is really really intelligent and kind of knew his role. The big thing for Sean is he was so talented that you're trying to figure out what is the best way to maximize his talent. Should we let him travel, should we keep him on one side, put him at left corner, and let him be the dominant player. He is everything that you were looking for the position, which is why he speaks so well to it. And I thought it was fascinating that his dad Ron Springs had great careers are running back in the National Football League. He admitted he brought him a couple extra years by getting him out of that running back position, getting him to go into the dB room and made the lecture cash in the process. Hats off the pops. All right, we've got We've got Jim Naggy coming up here and just a little bit, but let's get to our next interview with Dennis Thurman. Great player in the NFL, also a tremendous track record as a defensive coordinator as well as a dB coach in the NFL, and you had a chance to catch up with him. You can't talk about defensive football without bringing in one of the best players, one of the best coaches, one of the guys who has been mentored by some great at the position. Dennis Thurman, former defensive coordinator for the Buffalo Bills, also the New York jest anywhere else, I'm anybody else, I miss it, any other sayings all the accolades. All right, so I fluffed you up pretty good. I got you pumped up. But look, Dennis, we want to talk about the cornerback position and what separates the good from the great. So when you think about dbs, what are the essential traits that the great ones have? The great ones always have. Well, first thing, they have a great vision. You have to have tremendous vision. Okay, then you have to have great feet, great hands. When I say hands, it's the ability to get your hands on someone, but also catch the football, the ability to redirect people, understand how to drip people. The ball has to end up on the grounds. Receiver doesn't catch it, you've done your job. But a lot of guys think, hey, I gotta hit the ball. You don't always have to hit the ball as a corner, just meant sure to receiver doesn't catch it. So teaching them how to strip a receiver by getting hands back up under armpits, separating the hands. It's just a lot of different things. But the eyes are first because if you can't see them, if you can't see him, you're not gonna go. You know, you can't go with them. So you have to be able to track them. So you have to have a great vision. Your feet have to get you there, okay, and it really when you're talking about one on one past defense, you play tag, right, it's the greatest tag game. In the history of tag, because if wherever he's running, where do you have to go get them off to the spot. Yeah, you gotta get get where he's going, right, Okay, Well, it's the greatest form of tag there is. All we're doing is paying tag, playing a game of one hand tag. Now kids game. It is a kid's game. So I've always been and told I've always viewed the quarterback position as one where the guy on the perimeter is at the catholic because the only position where you start going backwards before you go forward. Physically, when you're evaluating position, what are you looking for? If we could, we could draw it up? What are you looking for? Quick feet balanced his ability to mirror someone as quickly as the guys moving forward. You have to be able to mirror him going backwards just as just as well. And if a guy can't do that, he's not gonna have a chance to play dB. Okay, you can. You can teach him different techniques. You can teach them how to get up there and press bail. You can teach him to get up there and just press all day. But there's times where you have to be able to play off and mirror a receiver running backwards as fast as he is running forward. And if you can't do that, you're gonna struggle to play dB over a long period of time. So for for so long, in recent years, we we've seen this trend where people go from smaller corners to now want a bigger corner. Um having been a guy that is coached both, what are the differences with a big corner and those small nickel type coins. Well, the bigger corner is gonna give you an opportunity. Well, the one of the biggest corners, he's a Hall of Famer that ever senting, was Mel Blunt. Mel Blunt was like six four twohundred five pounds two and ten pounds before it was even popular guys that size you to play outside linebacker. And all he did was grab guys and throw him in the gatorade, okay, and had a tremendous amount of success. And so in the big corner back then, it was about the physicality. Now it's the longer angular corner that you're looking at. From Mike Haines to Antonio Cromarty's, the Richard Sherman's, even even Josh Norman at Washington, those guys have length. Okay, you don't necessarily have to be the fastest when you're long, because your your length helps you in terms of can you get the ball over me? Can you get the ball by me? Because I now can reach and stretch, as opposed to a shorter corner who does not have that, who needs to have tremendous speed allied Darryl Green. Okay, darl Green came in with world class speed and he was able to just run with any and everybody. But at one point he had to learn how to use his speed because when he was younger, he just ran fast all the time. Once he learned how to use this speed, that's when he became the Hall of Famer. That he became so little smaller corners because you talked about the big corners and how they have to play. When you have a small corner and you're having to put him in and maybe has to play inside and nickel or at the slot, what does he have to have if he's an undersized player to be able to succeed tremendous tremendous quickness, Because when you're in that slot, you're now dealing with someone who has a three way go on you and when I say that the outside corner always most of the time, he thinks, well, depending on his split, he's either gonna go inside or outside or deep. When I'm dealing with that slot receiver, he can go inside, outside, or deep on me anytime he wants to because he has more space to work with. So if he doesn't have tremendous short area quickness and underneath quickness, he will struggle on that slot. Okay, So we've had this conversation privately, but I want to kind of bring it to air. Your nickel corner, your slot corner. Are you in the camp that that guy needs to be your best corner? Are you just saying that's where we put the small guy? No, he it can it can be. We we wrestled in New York early with putting the rail at that position. Yes, but he was so good outside that we didn't want to mess with Durrell And then when we got chro Marty. That was one of the reasons why we drafted Kyle Wilson because Kyle had the short area quickness and speed underneath that we were looking for and we didn't have to mess with our two premier corners that we had outside and by drafting Kyle, we were saying we had what we needed outside, let's find that guy inside if we moved the rail. Now Durrell is doing what we're asking him to do because there's no doubt we feel like he could have played on the slot, but now that outside, we felt like we would have weakened ourselves and we didn't want to do that. It's always easy to help a slot corner than it is helping an outside corner when you're playing against eleven person Noel, So now you brought up the real Reevers his name, and in two thousand and nine, some would say he might have had the best corner, best season ever for a cornerback. They were talking about he maybe the shutdown corner. It's only been a couple of those guys and dents in the real Reevers. What made the real Reevers the prototype at his position during his prom well, he his balance. When the first thing I noticed about him was his balance. He didn't get He was never off balanced. There was not one time in that two thousand and nine season where I felt like he was out of position or he wasn't in a position to make a play. Tremendous feet tremendous patients. He could get his hands on any receiver. But it wasn't just one hand. He could get both of his hands on the receiver. He rerouted guys and made them go where he wanted them to go, not where they wanted to go. And then people thought it was just the mirage. Okay, we just got you know what, he had a good game last week, so we're gonna get No, he had a good game that No, he just kept having putting back back to back, back to back, back to back great games. He was the reason why we went to the championship game in two thousand and nine and two thousand and ten. Without him, we don't go. We were able to put to put him on whoever we wanted to, and then we we took the other ten guys and we we did what we had to do to stop the other team's offense. But he gave us that type of flexibility to do that, and it was It was truly one of the greatest or two of the greatest seasons we've we've we've seen in a long time. Well, now I know you're still close to the game, you still watch the game. So if you had to pick a young guy, a guy that is currently playing right now. It's kind of like the new prototype. Who would be a young guy? What about Jayla Ramsey mation the prototype? Well, he because he's physical, he's long, he's angular, he's fast, he can he can change direction. He has an excellent ball ball skills. Just stop talking. Work. He didn't need to talk. Let your play. Do you're talking? Okay? Last year before he had a phenomenal year. Okay, where did where did Jacksonville go? And he went forward? He went to champions. When you have a truly great corner, he can he can lead your defense. Okay, he needs to just play. Last year he started doing what talking. Yeah, quarterbacks can't do this. Quarterbacks do. Just play. You you're tremendous football player. Go play the game. Lead your defense because he has that type of ability. Stephanie Gilmore has had two great years in New England. Oh, Stepford Gilmore, Jalen Ramsey. Okay, so I'm trying to figure out, let's not I can't let you go because there's a guy who was at one point the prototype that I don't think a lot of people really recognized or gave him a love credit Chris McAllister. You coached him in Baltimore. People are not familiar with Chris mc kelly. Just talk about Chris mcklsey and what Chris mc kellister did to kind of put his impact on the league as a shutdown corner. Because when Chris came out out of the University of Arizona, Chris was a top ten pick. I believe he was a tenth player picked in first round. The Ravens picked him. Chris was big, fast as a goal I mean just when you look at him. He said, man, how you're not playing corner, you're playing safety. You're playing outside linebacker. But his ability to change direction for a guy his size was uncanny. I just I sat there and I said, uh, you're not supposed to do this. But what Chris began to do and all I whispered to Chris was a little man wins. And he said, why do you keep telling me that? So you're playing too high? And he looked at me. He said, all right, man, I'm getting ready to do what you said. And he started doing it and he started having success, and he was like, man, this stuff works. Chris. You can change direction, but you're you're playing too high. Get down lower, and it was harder for him because six one six one and a half pounds when Chris I believe when Chris retired, Christal by two eighteen pounds as a corner, but he could still play the position, but he was playing it too high. He began to have success when he sank his body and allowed his natural gifts to take over. Chris began to go to the Pro Bowl. He was shutting that guys down. They were getting one, two, three catches a game. People weren't recognizing him for it because Dion was still playing okay, so he kind of got pushed to the back. And we had Ray Lewis and we had Ed Reid, and we had Terrell Sucks, and we had tremendous names on our defense. But Chris allowed us to do some of the things that Darrell allowed us to do. Okay, when we went when we were in Baltimore, and then we just took it the same and when we got to New York, we let Durell do those things. All right, I said one more, but now I do have a final one because this You never really talked about your playing career. I've never seen your on TV talk about I've never heard you already to talk about it, so I kind of want to talk about it because you had an opportunity to play in Dallas, and that secondary with you. Everson Walls, Uh, some record with a number of interceptions or whatever. Hundred and fifty how many how many years? Bete, hundred and fifty interception year. That's unbelievable. So what I want to talk about because Everson Walls, Um, it's still up consideration for the Hall of Fame. Everything wasn't wasn't a fast guy. How can you be a successful corner in this league when you're not fast? Tremendous eyes. He had tremendous eyes. And that's why I keep going with eyes. The first he could read routes. He didn't he didn't have to play press. If you don't play press, you have to have what great vision? He had tremendous vision. He could read routes, He understood route patterns, he understood body language. He I mean when he taught me about watching receivers, how they break the huddle. Okay, they're pulling on their gloves, you know, are they you know? Do they look down or they're looking up? Because a lot of times receivers will tip off when they might be getting the ball or when it's a pass. So there were things that we had tradeoffs. Okay, because I helped him with learning the overall defense, but everything. Had tremendous ball skills, but more importantly, he had tremendous eyes, and that that was his strength. He always played to that. You go watch tape, you'll never see him in press. He don't think he ever gotten pressed unless we were playing too man, okay, because he had a he had a great ability to read the quarterback and understand route patterns and combinations. He took one interception from me on a slant. I swear to god, I guys running a slant and he broke on the ball before I did. And he just my hands are here, and somebody's hands they were his. I said, man, what hell? You said? Man? I just saw it. What can you say? What can you say? Oh? Man, you have said enough. Thanks for joining the Mood of six podcast giving us an education on the prototypes at the corner of back position. Well, Bucket was neat listening to that conversation. You can definitely tell um somebody who I've known DT a little bit, but you can definitely tell you guys have a nice, nice relationship there. You guys have known each other for a long time. I learned so much about football from him, in fact, I mean just we we have these weekly conversations where he just kind of continues to enlighten me on the game. And I think the big thing with thein is is how he talks about like everyone can't handle it on the perimeter and the fact that he was able to coach the real reevers and the things separated Reeves from some of the other guys, uh, not only the physical skills uh that he displayed, but the toughness and the willingness to really uh buy into practice and doing all those other things. I think the real reeves his ability to be a lockdown corner. To me, he is the prototype because we haven't seen many that have been really able to shut down one half of the field without assistance from a safe And my notebook im run out of room to write after that conversation with DT A lot of knowledge he was dropping on us right there all right. Next interview Jim Naggy and we talked about it at the top. Buck one of the more respected evaluators who decided to uh leave the the NFL game after being a very successful executive on the scouting side of things, to go take over the Reese's Senior Bowl, but still constantly watching tape and up on the latest trends at the position. Here's my conversation with Jim Naggy. All right, Jim, let's talk about some some cornerbacks. Now. I was looking at the cornerback position and and maybe how that's evolved just from when you began scouting to where we are now. What has chain what's more important now? The way the game is played versus when you started. I think length like any position. I think when I was getting into scouting, DJ, you and I are about the same time there. Just you hear length, length, length a lot more than you when you ever did when we were breaking in, you know, in the early two thousands. Um. I think that the success that they had in Seattle with with Richard Sherman and Browner and some of these longer corners, I think that's, uh, you know, that's been huge at the position. I just go back to this year's Senior Bowl game. UM, you know, contacting teams and reaching out and trying to get feedback about our rosters with with the NFL teams, it was like, bigger guys, the better. You know, bring as many long corners as you can um. But again, you know, you also have to be mindful of the teams to play a lot of off man coverage because those longer guys are going to struggle in that. So there are teams like the Patriots and in Houston teams that uh, you know, coming from that New England model where they play a lot of off man where you need transition skills. You need to you need to have that transition quickness and reactionary athleticism and the top of a route to mirror. So again it's kind of like two different packages. But I do think that heightened length is at a premium when you look at that, and some teams obviously employ their corners differently. We talked about the wide receiver position and Coach bill I used to always mention it and mentioned on our Wide Receiver episode about building a basketball team having guys that can do different things. Uh, smaller guys a power forward to point guard. When you look at the secondary now with so many teams using motions and shifts and getting freeing up these wide receivers where some of these bigger, longer corners can't get on them. Um, what about building a basketball team in the secondary where you have some of those big guys that can match up, but also you're gonna have weeks where you're seeing Antonio Brown, uh and maybe having somebody where the change of direction of the fluid he might be a little more important. Yeah, I think that. Again, I'm drawing on my own experience. But you go back to the Seahawks over the last couple of years. At one point we had all our corners for six ft over guys with you know, thirty two and a half inch arms, and you get in the Super Bowl against the Patriots and you know you got Edelman, you know, turning guys inside out. You know, we we had to play with Harold Sickman in the slot, a little bit longer guy. Really wasn't fair, you know. I mean it's a big, longer guy. You can't match up and change direction with a guy like Wes Welker. So now you've seen the last couple of years that played with Justin Coleman inside Who's who's a smaller corner just signed a big deal with the Lions this offseason and Justin played great in there, you know, But and then we always had Cam Chancellor for the tight end. UM kind of feel like you know, we were we were big across the board, and I think even the Seahawks is grounded Pete as coach Carroll is in playing with a bigger defense. He made that adjustment to go to a guy like Justin Coleman. Did you guys do anything on your board for any of the teams? I know everybody you know has a Nickel slaughter star slot where you want to call it, and then they have outside guys. Has there been more specialization just in talking to people around league and your experience of saying, hey, these are kind of our press corners, these are some of the off corners. A way to designate them on the board when you're trying to set up and get ready for the draft. Yeah, we actually created a Nickel column which we never had before. Um for those guys, for those smaller under size guys that we knew if they had to play outside they might struggle in our scheme. Um, but for what we would be asking them to do in the slot, they were perfect. And again not not a total scheme fit, every down scheme fit, but as much subdowns as as teams are in. Now, Um, that guy is gonna be on the field six at the time, so we had to account for that. So it kind of created a nickel position. And then I think what you're also seeing is a lot of teams trying to use safeties as in the nickel spot. So just in Latin this past year's draft, you see he Rattalie from Delaware. Um, you know who went to the Chargers. I think he was a perfect example. Jakwon Johnson from Miami. I mean, there was a bunch of a bunch of guys in that Vane Darnell Savage to the Packers in the first round. Um, just because you can mix and match in the secondary. So you're seeing a lot more seeing a lot more safety nickel versatility than you ever saw, you know, ten fifteen years ago. All I want to place you in the draft room because I'm curious to see how you handle this one. You you go out, you find a player, you love his personality, you love his temperament. Uh, character checks out. It's great. Uh he's explosive. Um, he's fluid, but he can't find the football. Do you lobby for that player or are you a buyer beware on that player? Well, I think that depends on who you're who you're scouting for, and you gotta know your your head coach and Pete Carroll m it's all about the ball in Seattle, So that would have been that would have been a tough sell with coach Carroll. Guy that couldn't find and play the ball, because again, I think it goes back to uh, that's that's almost an inherent trait. Well at least at least the you know places up ben that that's something that's really hard to coach, being able to get your head around find the football. That's why going back and finding guys with a baseball background that maybe played some outfield, played some center field, used to tracking a football. Um, you know, there's a lot of things that can be developed. We've just found over time that's that's a difficult thing to to develop. It's one thing when they're seeing in front and they can jump routes and break on the ball and make place in front, but it's those plays down the field, the plays that count, those explosive plays that they can't make. That play down the field. Um at some point or another that's gonna really lost your football team all our last one. Then we'll let you run here. Just the importance of tackling at the position with the way the game is played now versus maybe ten fifteen years ago. Yeah, I think that. I think the cliche is that you pay corners to cover um, but at some point they're gonna have to tackle too. I mean, I know you've worked for teams where you might be in a situation where your corners have to come up and make that tackle in a big game and they don't get the guy in the ground. Again, you don't you don't need to be the most physical guy, but you have to be willing, right, it's hard to it's hard to sell a dB in a draft room for a guy that that lacks toughness, you know, and again not to you know, won't call out any particular player, but there have been some players over the years that I've loved his coverage guys, And and you know, the coaches are the ones that have to coach these guys, and they're the ones who's next are on the line on Sunday, so they more more than scouts. Almost I feel like coaches are the ones that want to see the toughness in DBS and just finding the willingness. They might not be big and strong, but at least come up and cut and try to get a guy in the ground. Um, you have to see that at minimum. Yeah. To me, I just look at and think it's it's maybe more important now than it's ever been, just because of all the quick game, the perimeter game that we've seen from the college game from Saturday's kind of seep into Sunday football with you've got bubble screens, you've got fly sweeps. It just seems like those guys they're gonna get found. If you can't tackle and you're playing the corner position, whether you're inside or outside, eventually the ball is gonna find. You're gonna get yourself some trouble. Yeah, especially if the nickel spot. That's a really good point, do you ja the nickel spot. We always felt like if you had a guy in there that was that was on the softer side, they're gonna check ron and find that guy, um and run at him. So yeah, that's that's absolutely the case. Dude. I can't thank you enough for your time. Man, it's awesome stuff. I really appreciate you, Bud Buck. The thing that jumped out to me about that conversation is just knowing what you want. You know, some position coaches and some organizations are gonna favor different attributes more so than others. And to me, you got to know what you're shopping for. And he had a great example there in Seattle, and you'd watch those big, tall, long corners to be a little bit stiff, didn't worry about it. They could play in that defense because they can all people on the perimeter. And I think that was the thing that Seattle really uh did very very well. They knew exactly what they wanted on the perimeter. They were okay with the warts and the issue that showed up in some of those players because the rewards were the ability to be able to snuff out bigger receivers, being able to match up and lock it down and really make tight window throws kind of the norm when you face that defense, and he is right there, when you have bigger corners you have to deal with um have a plan for dealing with the shifty eyes. And that's why somewhere when you're building your room, you may have a place for a smaller, quicker dB that could play for them, a guy like a walk to Thurman and Deshan and some of those other guys they've been able to play, Which brings us to our next part of the episode here where we have to come up with a prototype if we're entering this upcoming season here that is upon us and trying to find a prototype with everything we've learned today. Who is you know? It's This is a tough one for me, but I'm gonna go in a difference. I'm gonna go with Marcus Peters. And the reason prototype is because Marcus, ever, you know what you're gonna do. Man, I think I know you, but who are you? Are you? I like turnovers. I like turnovers. So with Marcus Peters. The reason why Marcus Peters to me is the prototype is because he's long, he's ranging. When he was in college, look he could go up and he could press. But what he's become as a pro, He's become a guy that is a terrific route reader. Like people will say that he's a gambler, but I believe he is a calculator risk take, and I think those risks turned into big rewards for the defense. So yes, he may give up a play, but he is going to make more plays than he ever gives up, and those plays are gonna lead to points because their takeaways. I thought, I knew you man, it's Jalen Ramsey. Uh, You've always loved You've been a Jay guy from the jump. I love him. Remember, by the way, when he was coming out and some folks were saying he wouldn't be remember that. I do remember. Remember those conversations on Twitter. I remember some big people, big people at other networks saying that raise your hand if you doubt of Jalen Ramsey went, whatever me and you don't have the hands out in there in our lap. Right now he's been Look, I mean, look, Jalen Ramsey is certainly a prototype. Jalen Ramsey is a prototype in terms of world class athlete high i Q, very competitive, can come up, play nose to nose and do all the things that you want to see from a press corner. We don't see him play off as much, but he's certainly capable of doing it and the feistiness you want. I think from a prototypical standpoint, though, like are you are? You are you comfortable with, that's your coach. He's gonna be able to handle that kind of strong personality, strong coach. I got a strong coach. But can I give you a bonus name, because I would say Jalen Ramsey. Maybe Paul Long athletic can do everything? Uh dense alward with the way the games played right now going forward. No, he's not the biggest guy in the world, but give me you talk about competitiveness and ball skills are two things that harped on at the beginning. Check check um and as somebody who might not be the biggest guy, he can play big, he can't play big. He's shown that play big. And the other thing is, I know people taking the task a little bit because he got dinged up a little bit coming up trying to tackle whatever. But to me, he is a willing tackler and that was the biggest issue. Hey, would he come up? Will he come over strike people when he has an opportunity on the perimeter. Well, he's been able to do that. And then you get the ball skills, the athleticism, uh, the ability to really blanket elite receivers Denz Award. It's fascinating. I think The funny thing in those three guys that we name totally different, completely different styles, and so beauty is really in the eye of the beholder. You have to match up your prototypical corner with the scheme that you want to play in your for your organization. No doubt, this has been a fun episode, man, learn a lot about the cornerback position. It's been a fun series. And this is gonna wrap up the series again. If you're just checking this episode out and you want more, We've got more. We've got the quarterbacks, running backs, wide receivers, tight end, offensive line, edge rushers. Uh, those are all out there those episodes NFL dot com, slash mts Prototype and the folks can get the entire series book. It's it's really been a lot of fun and and selfishly, I feel like we've been saying this consistently selfishly as much as I hope that the people like it. It was kind of for us just to continue to learn and grow. Yeah, to continue to learn and grow. I mean to talk about notebooks being full all kinds of knows, but really the conversations lead you to think about positions in a different way. How you value certain traits. Uh, This has been a fascinating series. Uh. I'm just really glad that the responses that we've been able to receive on Twitter at how people have received it really, really well, and how people in the business have talked about how it's even helped them hone there when it comes to looking at certain things, no doubt. And if you haven't already, do us a favorite subscribe to the Movie Sticks Podcast. We're gonna have a bunch of great content like this coming your way. We are excited about the plans we have for the fall and as we go through this NFL season and March towards the NFL Draft. We've got you covered right here on Move the Sticks. All right, Buck, that's gonna do it for us. Anything else you want to add before we get out of here. No, it's been a fantastic series. I hope everyone goes back and checks all of our prototypes in this series. There you go. Thank you guys for listening to Move the Sticks presented by New Era. Thanks for downloading Move the Sticks with Daniel Jeremiah and Bucky Brooks. For more, go to n f L dot com Slash Podcasts
