Stefan Lorenz Sorgner - Part II - How Can Euro-Transhumanism Help to Transcend Political Polarization?

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Greetings and welcome to the United States Transhumanist Party Virtual
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Enlightenment Salon. My name is Jannati Stolier of the Second
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and I am the Chairman of the US Transhumanist Party.
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Here we hold conversations with some of the world's leading
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thinkers in longevity, science, technology, philosophy, and politics. Like the
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philosophers of the Age of Enlightenment, we aim to connect
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every field of human endeavor and arrive at new insights
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to achieve longer lives, greater rationality, and the progress of
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our civilization. Greetings, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to our
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US Transhumanist Party Virtual Enlightenment Salon. Day is Sunday, January
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twenty fifth, twenty twenty six, and this is actually our
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last salon of January, so time flies quickly, but we
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are pleased to continue a conversation that was just so
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fascinating in September of this year during our Virtual Enlightenment
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Salon with Stefan Lorentz Zorgner that we believe it was
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important to bring him back. So joining us is our
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panel of US Transhumanist Party officers and members, including our
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Director of Visual Art Art Ramon Garcia. Our twenty twenty
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US presidential candidate and Director of Marketing Charlie cam and
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our twenty twenty one endorsed candidate for mayor for the
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City of Camden, New Jersey, Jennifer Hues. Also, hopefully soon
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our friend Alan Crowley will join us.
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He heads the.
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Transhumanist Party of Texas. So we have a distinguished panel
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to speak with. Our guest, Professor Stefan Lorentz Zorgner, who
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is a world leading philosopher renowned for his work in posthumanism, transhumanism, Nietzsche,
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and the philosophy of music. He is especially known for
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his interpretations of Friedrich Nietzsche and his critical engagement with
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human enhancement and emerging technologies. He is a philosophy professor
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at John Cabot University in Rome, director and co founder
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of the Beyond Humanism Network, and a fellow and advisor
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of numerous organizations, as well as the editor in chief
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and founding editor of the Journal of Post human Studies.
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He is a prolific public speaker. He travels widely, and
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he has been so gracious to join us for a
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continuation of the extensive discussion we had in September. I
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will also point out he's the author of numerous books
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on philosophy, including Metaphysics Without Truth on transhumanism, We have
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Always been Cyborgs, the philosophy of posthuman Art, and coming
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this year, euro Transhumanism. The book euro Transhumanism is going
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to be released in late May of this year, but
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you can pre order it now. Here is the website
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for it from Bristol University Press. And this is just
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an impressive book for its scope. I'm going to show
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you the table of contents of this book. It's easiest
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to just see it on the screen. You can see
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here twenty four chapters. He goes into politics, religion, morality, education, art,
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personal matters, broader cultural societal matters. All of this is
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within the purview of this philosophical framework of Eurotranshumanism. So
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it is quite a comprehensive read, and I would encourage
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any of you who are interested in going into the
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ideas we discussed today in greater detail to pre order
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the book. So with that being said, I wanted to
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mention where our conversation last time left off before turning
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it over to Stefan. So in the last approximately ten
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minutes of our previous virtual Enlightenment salon, which again you
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can see here we ventured into the subject of political
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polarization and how that has been intensifying in the Western world,
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and it seems that the conventional sides of the political spectrum,
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the MAGA right and the cancel culture left, are seeing
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past one another and are both subject to some of
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the same fundamental flaws in their thinking, which actually reinforces
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that deadlock between them, and Stefan was discussing the essentialist
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mindsets that exist on both sides of this divide. Stefan
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is a critic of essentialism and he began his critique previously,
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but unfortunately we ran out of time. So this is
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why I am invited him back because I think it's
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important to further explore that critique and how euro Transhumanism
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might be able to offer an alternative, because really, any
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sort of alternative that presents itself right now is at
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least worthy of serious consideration to enable us to transcend
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the polarization, which is getting worse. If you look at
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the news in the United States, especially just every single day,
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you see another egregious act or egregious development person lost
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his life unjustly in Minneapolis just a few days ago,
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and we want to reach a world where that stops.
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So how can it stop? And Stefan, I know this
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is quite a tall order to pose that kind of inquiry,
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but I think you're one of the best people to
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address this kind of dilemma. So please tell us about
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the book, tell us about your thoughts. The floor is yours.
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Many thanks for that extremely kind introduction and really for
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that excellent summary concerning the debate we've had during our
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last meeting. And yes, I do want to continue exactly
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where we stopped, because I think so if I gave
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the example of or started to deal with the example
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of Woody Ellen and sexuality, and I think this is
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exactly where many of the many of the central aspects
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of the cultural wars actually focus on. And whenever such
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issues get addressed, one is it can be certain one
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is not making one's have a lot of friends. So
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it always brings about hea to debates. But the issue
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is really and the issue is essentialism. The issues. The
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problem is that the people each all the intellectuals, sort
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of claim that universal validity for their own approach and
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what I think is universally valid and I think sort
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of this claim for truth is the fundamental challenge which
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we all need to address, and essentialists, transhumanists and neurotranshumanism
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can you know, better address than the other alternatives. And thereby,
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of course it doesn't. It loses its crownds. It's like
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it becomes a castle made of scent, because in the
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end it renders clearly that itself is something which necessarily
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has to vanish again, and it acknowledges this. It doesn't
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claim for universal validity. This is what anti essentialism, this
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is what non essentialism actually demands. And so yeah, I'm
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looking forward to hearing your thoughts and your responses to
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my suggestions, and I want to highlight all the things
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I'm presenting, our suggestions, our reflections. They're not sort of
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they don't claim to be universally valid, but they're like,
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you know, as good as it gets answers and judgments
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to the great variety of challenges we're facing with. And
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I want to focus on because that's where we start,
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and I think this is sort of a focal point
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of many of the culture was I want to focus
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on the case of sex. Many thinkers from Plato will
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Lucrecious to Shoppenhau and Freud have highlighted the fundamental relevance
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of the sex trives implicitly, its central importance has also
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been acknowledged by fundamentalist religious traditions, and due to its power,
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their focus has been on chastity. Women who take the
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wales of chastity become the pride of Christ, and the
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Catholic tradition, which also gets symbolized by the whil and
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the ring, and the Orthodox tradition, nuns merely receive the veil.
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If you're not strong enough to fully dedicate yourself to God,
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you may live sexuality in a natural union between a
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man and a woman, whereby the natural order of the
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world always ought to get considered the aim. The aim
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of the eye is to see, the aim of the
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nose is to smell, and the aim of the chanitals
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is to reproduce. If you masturbate or use contraceptive then
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you use the genitals in a non natural manner, and
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this is still a very strong part in many discussions.
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Also whenever naturalism, when sort of this is unnatural comes out,
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and that has a lot of implications concerning many transhumanist stances.
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In critical post humanist critical posthumanism is sort of a
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very extreme theme is a leftist approach which is very
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critical also of liberal democracies, which is very strong in
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many in the particular universities. In critical posthumanism and transhumanism,
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the natural law of the world gets dissolved, at least
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in most aspects of transiumity. However, this occurs in different directions.
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In critical posthumanism, the binary ontological conception of the world,
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which can be traced at least to Plato's aligor of
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the Cave, is the root of the challenge. As they
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are the binary power structures of discrimination originated because there
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is like whiteness and blackness racism, there was rational and
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the emotional, which is sexism. It can be traced to
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rationality being the human and the non human the non
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rational speciesism, and all of that can be traced to
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the ALLEGORYA of the Cave. The central goal of critical
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posthumanism is to culturally move away from these binaries. However,
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it's far from easy to do so, as the binary
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of conceptualizing the world is deeply in great in our
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language too, so hence importance of revising words that they use.
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Within these critical posthumans. Transhuman has an increase in so
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far as it also conceptualizes the world as extremely dynamic,
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and this also means that who we are as human
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beings is subject to modification. Critical posthumanists are more cautious
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in this respect because they always highlight the capitalist forces
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which enable such modification procedures. Hence, they regard the financial
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interest of companies who realize that technologies as problematic, as
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well as the ideals which are often aspired for due
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to them being propagated in social media, where by traditional
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power structures get duplicated due to all complex entanglement in
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the world. Critical posthumanists do not affirm the notion of autonomy,
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which on the other hand, is strongly affirmed within transhumanism.
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Even though it's uncertain whether it's kind of ontological grounding,
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whether we actually, you know, whether we possess the capacity
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of autonomy, most would say, well, ontologically the concept of
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autonomy is implausible. This doesn't apply to the normative concept
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of autonomy. If critical posthumanists draw upon the notion of autonomy,
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then they have at the most relational autonomy in mind,
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which replies that vulnerability, relational care, and resisting dominations get
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prioritized over the concept of autonomy. So autonomy matters for
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these approaches, but it's always one sort of vulnerability and
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relational care are probably are more important even than the
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autonomy or need to be prioritized. It also needs to
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be mentioned that there are different versions of, of course,
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of transhumanism, that there are significantly different interpretations concerning autonomy
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within these alteri versions of transhumanism, and I already mentioned
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four different approaches in the first discussion. Autonomy plays a
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central role in transhumanists as it unfolds itself in different
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versions of negative freedom, morphological freedom, you know, educative freedom,
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reproductive freedom, and many other types of freedom. While critical
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posthumanism stresses that everything is culture and hands based on
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some human interests, transhumanist highlights the relevance of evolution, whereby dominance,
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reproduction and health become particularly important. And I do want
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to highlight that because this actually does and must be
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considered also when it comes to issues concerning sex. Which
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of these elements is central strongly depends on the respective
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transhumanist tradition which gets considered. As it's essential to highlight
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that there's a great variety of different transhumanist approaches due
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to the relevance of morphological freedom and transhumanism and the
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focus on a non binarycount of relational care within critical posthumanism.
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Both of these cultural traditions are moving away from the
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traditional binary account of sexuality. So from the conservative fundamentalism,
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you know, religious approach concerning sexuality, transhumanists merely highlight that
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sexuality has to involve competent adults autonomously consenting to being involved.
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This is not only a place to hterosexual relationship, but
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also include same sex, queer, non binary, transgender relationships. Critical
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posthumanists share these concerns. However, they also highlight the relevance
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of vulnerability, relational care, and resisting domination, and these elements
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actually become dominant when it comes to critical posthumanism. Hence,
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these dements significantly move beyond the norms of transhumanism, as
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here the need of undoing hierarchies become central. Even though
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most cultural movements away from the traditional today of Christian
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sexual ideals, they affirm different rationalities when it comes to
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appropriate ways of sexually bonds. So I'm talking about the
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morality here of sexuality. While transhumanism primarily highlights the relevance
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of consent among competent adults. Critical post humanist stress care
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and the attempt to undermine structures of abuse which ROSEM
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is related to problematic versions of power dynamics, which is
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a significant practical implications, and the following three challenges are
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particularly relevant. Critiques of sexual power dynamics is fundamental in
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critical post humanisms. It cannot fold itself in various ways. Firstly,
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if there's a significant age gap between the partners, then
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critical posthumanists highlight the vulnerability of the younger person. Transhumanisms
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focus on the issue of consent, self determination and the
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non harm principle, and stress the power is perspectable, whereby
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it becomes unclear who is in control. Thus it might
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well be that the older person is more vulnerable. Given
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the power is perspectible, no general statements are plausible. What
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is the decisive criterion of power and this inside is
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central for eurotranshumanists. Summetry is important when it comes to
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sexual relationships. However, it needs to consider the perspectible judgments
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concerning power of everyone involved and this is the decisive factor.
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Applying generally valid criteria of power as is being done
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by critical posthumanists is implausible due to power being perspectible.
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According to eurotranshumanists. Secondly, if there's a financial inequality and
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a sexual relationship, then financial dependency, coersion, and commodification need
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to be considered. According to critical posthumanists, a lot more
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could be said concerning all these elements, and their critiques
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of commodification might be particularly influential as it applies to
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reproductive economies, prostitution, sex spots, as well as porn economies.
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Transhuman is not, the other hand, does not necessarily have
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a strong stands on all these issues as long as
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only consenting adults are involved, at least considering most forms
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of transhumanism and transumists usually highlights that financial power differences
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are secondary as long as no manipulation is applied. Voluntary
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consent is a gold standard. It is central for transhumanism
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to take evolution seriously. That's a different element. Evolutionary psychologists
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have analyzed in detail what counts as attractive from an
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evolutionary perspective. Nancy Etkov And she's a very fascinating evolutionary
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psychologists from Harvard University. She's the former wife of Stephen Pinker.
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She ruled the monocraft's survival of the prettiest signs of beauty.
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It highlights that the evolutionary standpoint implies that young women
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actually actually stresses sort of eighteen nineteen how is most
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beautiful for most men, whereas bodily beauty is secondary for
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most women. From this perspective, and elements like trust, reliability, power,
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and being able to be a provider account as attractive
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and given these insights, a certain financial inequality might even
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be advisable for a successful relationship. However, the following insights
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must not be forgotten. Symmetry ought to be important when
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it comes to sexual relationships. However, it needs to consider
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the prospectiable judgments concerning the power of everyone involved in
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order to avoid getting heard, as entering into sexual relationship
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makes everyone involve vulnerable. Trust is relevant in a sexual relationship.
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When it comes to a heterosexual bond, a woman has
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to accept three significant risks whose relevance have an evolutionary foundation.
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Trust is essential for her as she evades the see
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the sickness and the story that may follow the risk
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of pregnancy, as preventative maverages can always fail. The risk
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of a disease or it's important to know and to
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trust one's partners sufficiently that he has behaved accordingly in
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the past, and it's possible to believe that what he says.
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Too many cases where even they have an STD and
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they don't even inform the partner about it. The risk
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of the relation to avoid being placed in an uncomfortable
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public situation. For example, social media power games are central
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in the storytelling of our lives. Even though it seems
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to be widely shared element, it remains an open question
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whether it lies to all cultures. The additional factor, which
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further underlines the relevance of trust is safety. Safety can
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have to do with being saved from physical violence, economic, emotional,
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and future related challenges. Safety is not reducible to seed, sickness,
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and story. Safety is rather foundational, a metal condition or
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maybe even a precondition for all these three other elements
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of trust. A safety is only partially dependent of seed,
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sickness and story. Seed can be related to the safety
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when surrendering bodily autonomy. Sickness can be connected as a
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safety concerning onesealth, closely connected to the safety concerning the
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protection of someone's cultural identity. For man, the risk of
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pregnancy and humulation are limited. A man can be made
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to pay for the offspring a man can be made.
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Fun of the risk of a disease, however, is fundamentally
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relevant too. Hence, search of trust is also central for
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man and truthfulness, openness, and self care are virtues which
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are relevant for most people involved in a heterosexual sexual relationship,
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and not only there. Even though different criteria apply for
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men and women. In this case, all parties involved are vulnerable,
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and their vulnerability depends on many different factors. However, at
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Cough strongly relies on the traditional categories of biological sex.
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Within transhumanism, there's a wide range of different approaches, somewhat
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merely highlight that voluntary, autonomous consent among competent adults as
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decisive sexual attraction might merely come down to an exciting
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entanglement of the people involved. At coof considers survival and
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sexual selection as evolutionary perspectives. Nevertheless, the relevance of social
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distinction can also be an outcrows of the evolutionary process,
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whereby cultural elements become more and more important, which Adkov
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acknowledges but doesn't focus on. Hence, there's also Martine Rossplatz transhumanism,
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which highlights that there is many sexual identities at their
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people I agree. What matters is autonomous consent among competent adults,
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and this applies to all kinds of sexual relationships, for example, heterosexual,
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same sex quear, non binary or transgender relationships, even though
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any categorization can already be seen as overately reductive because
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any generalization depends on sort of the cultural framing on
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some categories which were invented. And this is the understanding
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which is also central for urotranshumanism. What matters for this
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version of transhumanist is the autonomous consent among competent adults.
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Asexuality too, is an option which can be related to
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social distinction. In this case, a person prefers to abstain
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from any kind of sexual bonds, which will focusing on
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other goals in the life world, survival of the fittest.
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Sexual selections social distinction represent three dimensions of evolution, and
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we need to take you know, we are part of
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the you know of the earth, so we need to
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take the evolutionary factors into consideration, and the element of
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survival is central for all living beings. And here the
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relevance of safety comes in. Sexual selection takes a reproductive
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element into consideration. Even though we are moving into a
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direction into which reproductive technologies seem to replace sexual reproduction.
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So the new technology is become more and more important
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when it comes to reproduction, and sexuality has becomes different functions.
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Here the reflections on heterosexual relationships come into play, even
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though it needs to be highlighted and kept in mind
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that any kind of sexual categorization needs to be overly reductive.
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Besides safety, the element of trust is central, which also
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applies to any kind of sexual relationship. However, here in
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an additional factor needs to be considered, which particularly applies
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to those who firm an additional heterosexual frame in and
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I'm mentioning that because it's still sort of you know,
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it applies to the majority of human beings. Trust is
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essential for error, as she voyages succeed the sickness and
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the story that may follow, whereas for him, the element
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of sickness might be more relevant than the other two dimensions.
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And this asymmetry does not mean that symmetry is not important. Nevertheless,
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besides the perspectible evolutions of power, additional evolutionary factors concerning
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sexual selection become relevant to stress. This element does not
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mean that any kind of biological essentialism gets upponed you know,
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not at all. This is not the case. It implies, however,
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that the evolutionary element concerning sexual selection must not be
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disregarded either, and the evolutionary you know is usually more
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entrained into one's psychophysiology than the cultural framings. Both of
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them are, in the end, you know, contingent elements and
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subject to change. Finally, there's the element of social distinction,
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which stresses that there as many sexual identities are there
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people and the end it's the element which is decisive
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for euro transhumanism. Autonomous consent among competent persons is the
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most relevant factor when it comes to sexual relationships, and
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this should be central in the case of heatero sexual
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same sex qui A non binary or transcender relationships. Here too,
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it needs to be kept in mind that any type
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of categorization is already bound to be reductive. The person
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is a unique bundle of elements, whereby any kind of
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categorization has to include overly reductive elements. A flourishing sexual
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relationship demands some kind of symmetry between the persons with
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the unique sexual identities. Whether symmetry is present does not
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depend on generally applicable criteria, but on the perspectible judgments
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concerning power of everyone involved. And this is why where
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where you know traditional approach is essentialist approaches have done
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terribly wrong. Survival, Schopenhau's will to live, sex, Freud's arrows,
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and social distinction meeatures will to power represent facets of
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evolutionary tribes. It depends on the respective accummulation of power
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interpretation which of these elements becomes dominant in specific psycho physiology.
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According to eurotranshumanism, different persons have significantly different criteria. Even
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though health is the multipurpose good is widely shared criterion,
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it is not the only significant feature. Hence, voluntary consent
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among competent adults is a decisive gold standard for eurotranshumanists.
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The third factor, if there's a significant hierarchy concerning authority, family, institution, celebrity,
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then the possibility of consent can be undermined. According to
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critical post humanism, and they stress that consent is not
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a binary yes or no reply, but it is relational
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situated negotiation which get distwarted by wrong hierarchic gap concerning
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authority related challenges clearly come out in the case of
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the relationship between Woody Allen and song G. Brevin, who
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used to be the adopted daughter of his then partner
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Mia Farrow, with whom he was never married. And I'm
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not discussing the relationship between Ellen and Pharaoh, and this
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is basically we stopped the last time. That's why I'm
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highlighting this element. However, Ellen and Pharaoh were a long
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term partnership and they had children together. There is an
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age gap between Ellen and Brevin of about thirty five years. Secondly,
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there has been a family type of entanglement between Ellen
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and Previn, as Alan had a clazi parental role in
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the household even though he was not her adoptive father.
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There was a strong authority gap between Ellen and Bravan,
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as Allen was a global celebrity, rich and with an
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enormous amount of cultural capital, whereas Brevan was the first
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year university student when they came together. It was the
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enormous asymmetry between Ellen and Braven concerning age, family structure,
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and authority. The possibility of a genduine, reciprocal, care based relationship,
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as well as the possibility of an authentic consenting yes
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by Previn gets undermined. According to critical posthumanism, and that's
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a widely shared attitude even in society is nowadays, and
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that's why Ellen got canceled. On the other hand, it
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needs to be noted that their sexual relationship began about
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thirty five years ago. They got married in nineteen ninety seven,
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and they still live together as husband and wife. And
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this is sort of the best you can note for
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If the evolutionary elements as described by Nancy Atkov get considered,
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they represent the couple in which each partner had the
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peak of attractiveness based on evolutionary psychological perspective, So each
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one of them had the peak of attractiveness when they
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came together. From Atcof's perspective, as evolutionary psychologists bought only
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beauty is important for most men verereus authority, trust and
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stability are strongly valued by most women. It is fundamental
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for most versions of transhumanists to seriously consider the implications
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and relevance of evolutionary theories, in contrast to Etcuff's understanding
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of evolution, which primarily focuses on survival and sexual selection.
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Other transhumanists, like eurotranshumanists and also highlight the element of
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social distinction as outcrude of the evolutionary perspective. In this case,
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the gold standard of a sexual bond is whether some
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kind of symmetry between the persons where the unique sexual
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identities is given. And this can even be the case
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when a seemingly enormous asymmetry concerning h family structure and
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authority is present, as was the case with Woody Element
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and zoom Jeep Brevin. It needs to be kept in
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mind that it depends on the perspectible judgments concerning the
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power of everyone involved, whether is symmetry is present on
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not in generally applicable criteria, I'm coming to my concluding
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remarks not be much of a big surprise to highlight
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the sex drive is fundamentally important for human beings. Hence
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it has become an intensely discussed cultural battlefield on how
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to deal with sex in the appropriate manner. On the morality,
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I was not talking about you, not primarily talking about
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you know what, what leads to the good life. I
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was just talking about the morality here. Traditional conservative perspective
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still play an important role in the discussions today in
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the sense sort of Judeo Christian tradition with all of
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their essentialisms which go along with that and I privily
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summarize them at the beginning. Critical posthumanism and its ancestors
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have done an excellent job in highlighting the paternalistic structure
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of fundamentalist approaches, because the fundamentalist approaches with an essentialists
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claim where like you know, you know, man rationality being superior,
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emotionality being imperial and all, you know, and they strongly
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take the position of the so called of the wikipart.
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Most transhumanist approaches, on the other hand, defend councel culture
436
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against their fundamentalist critics and stress the relevance of uncanceling
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cancel culture, which goes along with paternalistic approaches. So you know,
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they all you know, most most transhuman and that's ryle.
439
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You know, they no longer share such an essentialist understanding
440
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as there was in Christian tradition. But at the same time,
441
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it has also become clear that by highlighting the relevance
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of vulnerability, relational care and resisting domination and the most
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relational autonomy might get upheld by critical posthumanists and this
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leads to strongly partonalistic elements and they've really gone over
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the board with many of these claims. Thus cancel culture,
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which is closely entangled with critical post humanists, has become
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enormously influential at universities. There By, excessive versions of cancel
448
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culture have become dominant in certain intellectual circles, which cancel
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people like Woody Allen, who at least in the case
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mentioned previously, has done nothing morally problematic. From the perspective
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of euro transhumers. You know, there are two competent adults
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making decisions, and you really turn turn turn you know,
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the first year student into someone immateial if you claim
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you know, you know better than that, what is in
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the interest? So hence I'm canceling cancel culture also implies
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that excessive versions of cancel culture need to be criticized.
457
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So I'm canceling cancel culture. I means, on the one
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there is something you know, you know, criticizing all the
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essentialist elements which go along with the traditional monotheistic religion.
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That's a that's a you know, very strong stance because
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there's a lot of violence connected with it. On the
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other hand, on the other hand, then by going into
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the other extreme, by suddenly saying no, you you know,
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if you praise any type of standard your traditional relations
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more traditional bonds, then that's already morally problematic. And by
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by base demanding that someone who's you know, they're clear standards,
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who is the weaker part. And then whenever, whenever sort
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of the relationship occurs between someone who they regard as
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a weaker part, then it also becomes immral. That is
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as as partnalistic and as dangerous as basically the traditional
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the traditional religious fundamentalists. So because they also claim they've
472
00:33:24.920 --> 00:33:28.799
got an essentialized criteria or of what is the morally
473
00:33:28.920 --> 00:33:30.720
right one. So it used to be if we talk
474
00:33:30.759 --> 00:33:33.160
about art, it would be used to be beauty. Now
475
00:33:33.240 --> 00:33:36.279
beauty goes along with violence, and so now it needs
476
00:33:36.319 --> 00:33:40.880
to be monsters. But those are basically fundamentalist, essentialist approaches
477
00:33:41.079 --> 00:33:43.960
which go a lot along with a lot of violence
478
00:33:44.119 --> 00:33:49.279
in what they affirm. So and so that's the term
479
00:33:49.400 --> 00:33:54.680
uncanceling cancel culture is and is meant to be ambiguous.
480
00:33:54.960 --> 00:33:57.960
This is why it's both the defense of culture cancel
481
00:33:58.000 --> 00:34:01.880
culture against its fundamentalist critics, those who want to return
482
00:34:01.960 --> 00:34:07.799
to traditional traditional religious religiosity, as well as the critique
483
00:34:07.839 --> 00:34:11.960
of cancel culture in excessive forms, which basically affirms no
484
00:34:12.400 --> 00:34:16.079
unless you affirms sort of the ideals upheld here. You're
485
00:34:16.159 --> 00:34:20.440
basically you immoral. That's another type of essentialism. It needs
486
00:34:20.440 --> 00:34:23.440
to be highlighted that transhumanism is divided on the issues
487
00:34:23.519 --> 00:34:26.800
raised here. On the one hand, there are various transhumanist
488
00:34:26.840 --> 00:34:30.559
approaches which uphold the relevance of consent among competent adults
489
00:34:30.679 --> 00:34:35.119
is described previously for example Martin ross Platt or You're transhumanist.
490
00:34:35.800 --> 00:34:37.840
On the other hand, it must also be noted there
491
00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:41.440
is one version of transhumanism which embraces the more conservative
492
00:34:41.440 --> 00:34:45.679
stance concerning sexuality, in which, due to its enormous relevance
493
00:34:45.719 --> 00:34:48.119
in the tech business world, can be referred to as
494
00:34:48.119 --> 00:34:52.320
classic transhumanists, which Elon Musk being one of the main
495
00:34:52.400 --> 00:34:57.000
representatives and the conservatives of classic transhumanism gets revealed by
496
00:34:57.000 --> 00:35:00.880
Elon Musk, for example, not being supportive of strands daughter,
497
00:35:01.239 --> 00:35:05.920
which is while he is praised extremely conservative advocate Charlie Kirk,
498
00:35:06.239 --> 00:35:09.239
who is recently murdered. So that goes more along with
499
00:35:09.320 --> 00:35:13.880
the sort of fascination of a more essentialist understanding basically
500
00:35:13.960 --> 00:35:18.280
of sexuality, and with the approach which the approach I'm
501
00:35:18.280 --> 00:35:22.239
trying to highlight here, with the eurotranshumanist approach sort of it.
502
00:35:22.400 --> 00:35:25.800
It does acknowledge there are some you know, ansymmetries between
503
00:35:25.920 --> 00:35:28.119
men and women, and it makes sense to talk about
504
00:35:28.280 --> 00:35:30.679
men and women even though you know, of course words
505
00:35:30.719 --> 00:35:34.559
are as metaphors are just contingent categories which we humans
506
00:35:34.559 --> 00:35:37.639
have created, but most people do associate with them. So
507
00:35:37.760 --> 00:35:41.400
by highlighting that it's just a metaphor, but metaphor usually
508
00:35:41.440 --> 00:35:44.960
works because you know, these are the dominant criteria in
509
00:35:45.000 --> 00:35:50.199
the life world. Then this is a way to acknowledging
510
00:35:50.320 --> 00:35:53.960
the impact basically of many types of traditional essentialisms. But
511
00:35:54.079 --> 00:35:56.239
at the other hand, but they in the end, they
512
00:35:56.239 --> 00:35:59.400
are just evolutionary factors and they are widely shared in
513
00:35:59.480 --> 00:36:02.679
our psycle physiologies. But this doesn't mean that they're that
514
00:36:02.760 --> 00:36:06.360
they're you know, they're essential and university valid because there's
515
00:36:06.360 --> 00:36:10.039
another dimension, and that's a cultural outcrows. And for many
516
00:36:10.199 --> 00:36:13.480
actually the cultural outcrows is more important than sort of
517
00:36:13.480 --> 00:36:16.760
what is what is the evolutionary and grain and sort
518
00:36:16.760 --> 00:36:20.360
of the outcrows can be is the sexual identity which
519
00:36:20.400 --> 00:36:23.199
people form. And there's like you know, there as many
520
00:36:23.239 --> 00:36:25.920
in the end, there as many sexual identities as there
521
00:36:26.440 --> 00:36:29.079
as they're a personal in the world. And in the end,
522
00:36:29.159 --> 00:36:31.599
what we really need to focus on is sort of
523
00:36:31.639 --> 00:36:35.119
trying to avoid, you know, the violence which goes along
524
00:36:35.119 --> 00:36:38.119
with the essentialism, and that leads to the binary distinction.
525
00:36:38.239 --> 00:36:41.519
But otherwise we can we can allow the great plurality
526
00:36:41.559 --> 00:36:44.679
of different types of flourishing by realizing, well, you know,
527
00:36:44.880 --> 00:36:47.599
we need to decide at a certain type what people
528
00:36:47.800 --> 00:36:51.000
to discuss the decisions people make. We need to we
529
00:36:51.079 --> 00:36:54.119
need to you know, acknowledge them. We need to acknowledge
530
00:36:54.159 --> 00:36:57.960
that they that they are mature and they can they
531
00:36:57.960 --> 00:37:00.239
have got the right to making the decision, whether they're
532
00:37:00.280 --> 00:37:02.800
actually not matire whatever. And then you bring the story
533
00:37:03.000 --> 00:37:06.440
it's extremely patinalistic to doing so because you claim to
534
00:37:06.480 --> 00:37:11.159
know better than whatever other what other people then and
535
00:37:11.559 --> 00:37:13.800
then you could claim to know better than others and
536
00:37:13.920 --> 00:37:16.639
what is in the interest. But this is of course
537
00:37:16.679 --> 00:37:19.239
you have just been talking about the morality. It's a
538
00:37:19.239 --> 00:37:22.199
completely different issue. What actually sort of if anything can
539
00:37:22.239 --> 00:37:25.239
be said about sort of something personal fulfillment or the
540
00:37:25.239 --> 00:37:27.960
good life you don't know, you know, and here and
541
00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:30.199
here in the in the end sort of the classic transhumanists,
542
00:37:30.199 --> 00:37:32.559
actually you do have a different approach to what I'm
543
00:37:32.639 --> 00:37:35.440
I'm halik and in classic transhumanism much more. You know,
544
00:37:35.519 --> 00:37:38.559
they impraise a much more base hedonism, you know David
545
00:37:38.599 --> 00:37:41.599
Piers for example, a base hedonism, which also comes out.
546
00:37:42.840 --> 00:37:45.119
I also in praise the type of hedonism, but it's
547
00:37:45.239 --> 00:37:48.599
more refined hedonism. I wouldn't say, you know, the base
548
00:37:48.679 --> 00:37:51.800
hedonism which because and that is being shared in many
549
00:37:51.840 --> 00:37:54.719
of the pop up city I talked about before. It
550
00:37:54.800 --> 00:37:56.960
is about sort of the area being what is you've
551
00:37:56.960 --> 00:38:01.559
got workshops on on tantra sex, what's changing partners? And
552
00:38:01.880 --> 00:38:06.480
you've got you know, workshops on on on polyamory, and
553
00:38:06.480 --> 00:38:08.280
and sort of it goes more along with you know,
554
00:38:08.360 --> 00:38:12.519
whatever matters is in praise and praise sexuality and praise
555
00:38:12.519 --> 00:38:16.239
the biased kind of hedonism, you know, And I think
556
00:38:16.360 --> 00:38:18.480
sort of I would personally stress, but that is a
557
00:38:18.800 --> 00:38:21.159
different issue. As I said, We've got our roots, we've
558
00:38:21.199 --> 00:38:23.559
got a biological roots, and we need to acknowledge them,
559
00:38:23.599 --> 00:38:26.320
and healths place an important role. So I would be
560
00:38:26.320 --> 00:38:28.840
extremely hesitant. But you know, all of these statements are
561
00:38:29.000 --> 00:38:32.360
just these are suggestions I'm making. What I was trying
562
00:38:32.400 --> 00:38:35.400
to say, what are the dangers related to the essentialism
563
00:38:35.639 --> 00:38:38.960
which is such strong players in the case of cancel culture,
564
00:38:39.239 --> 00:38:42.840
and which we can find those in traditional and traditional
565
00:38:44.039 --> 00:38:48.760
religious approaches today Christian tradition as well as in such
566
00:38:49.079 --> 00:38:52.159
perspectives where you know, if we take seriously what Ilon
567
00:38:52.280 --> 00:38:56.679
Musk said in classic transhumanism, but in the same way
568
00:38:56.719 --> 00:38:59.039
it is as bad basically in the case of the
569
00:38:59.079 --> 00:39:02.440
you know, extremely left critical posthumanist approaches, which is a
570
00:39:02.519 --> 00:39:07.239
dominant in in in you in universities which highlight now
571
00:39:07.639 --> 00:39:11.760
you know, unless you subscribe to that understanding of vulnerability
572
00:39:11.920 --> 00:39:15.239
and care, that becomes important. And we decide then in
573
00:39:15.280 --> 00:39:17.719
the end, what is an appropriate relationship? And I think
574
00:39:17.760 --> 00:39:20.480
we need to take seriously what an adult person actually
575
00:39:20.760 --> 00:39:23.559
which decisions they need to make about their lives. And
576
00:39:24.159 --> 00:39:27.880
you know, this is basically many things for your attention.
577
00:39:28.000 --> 00:39:30.960
I'm looking forward now to having further exchanges on these
578
00:39:31.000 --> 00:39:33.960
really pressing issues because they really go further. In the end,
579
00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:36.400
it's about, you know, understanding of nature. When we talk
580
00:39:36.440 --> 00:39:39.360
about you know, morphological freedom. Should I have the rights
581
00:39:39.400 --> 00:39:43.000
to to use specific technologies? Does do others people know
582
00:39:43.079 --> 00:39:46.000
better than you which technology is to draw upon. Should
583
00:39:46.039 --> 00:39:49.159
we have a clear structure of enhancement getting better? There
584
00:39:49.199 --> 00:39:51.719
specific goals which need to be spied for so I
585
00:39:51.760 --> 00:39:54.480
was just highling well one specific factor, but it actually
586
00:39:54.519 --> 00:39:56.320
it's at the at the heart of many of the
587
00:39:56.440 --> 00:40:01.079
challenges which transhumanism is facing. So looking forward to hearing
588
00:40:01.119 --> 00:40:02.360
your thoughts on these issues.
589
00:40:03.239 --> 00:40:07.639
Yes, thank you very much, stuff On for that nuanced
590
00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:12.280
overview and analysis. I think it would be best to
591
00:40:12.320 --> 00:40:16.920
start out with some viewer questions on some of the
592
00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:22.039
more basic concepts and we can develop the discussion further
593
00:40:22.159 --> 00:40:27.280
from there. So David Wallace Croft wonders what is essentialism?
594
00:40:27.320 --> 00:40:31.280
So for those of our viewers who haven't encountered that term,
595
00:40:31.400 --> 00:40:36.199
stuff On, could you explain it and the core of
596
00:40:36.280 --> 00:40:38.119
your critique of essentialism.
597
00:40:39.199 --> 00:40:43.599
Yes, thank you, wonderful question. Now it's really so. Essentialism
598
00:40:43.719 --> 00:40:49.000
is a claim that there are universal, fundamental, unchanging truth
599
00:40:49.119 --> 00:40:52.360
about the world and sort of one of the maybe
600
00:40:52.440 --> 00:40:58.760
philosophical way to describing sort of the challenges related to
601
00:40:58.960 --> 00:41:02.480
what essential ism is. Basically, you know, many of these
602
00:41:02.519 --> 00:41:06.199
types can be traced to the allegory of the cave
603
00:41:06.440 --> 00:41:10.559
as it comes up in Plato's Republic. So in Plato's Republic,
604
00:41:10.599 --> 00:41:13.599
there's a world which we access by our senses. We
605
00:41:13.719 --> 00:41:17.000
all live in this world. We see the empirical world,
606
00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:20.599
all around us, but by thinking, we can actually move
607
00:41:20.639 --> 00:41:24.440
outside of the cave. By using rationality, we can move
608
00:41:24.480 --> 00:41:27.400
outside of the cave, and we reach the form of
609
00:41:27.440 --> 00:41:30.480
the good, the idea of the good, but that we
610
00:41:30.480 --> 00:41:34.559
can only do so by our immaterial mind, according to Plato,
611
00:41:34.960 --> 00:41:38.960
right using rationality. And so we've got a distinction on
612
00:41:39.000 --> 00:41:43.039
the one hand concerning the world of change which we
613
00:41:43.119 --> 00:41:45.840
live and which we access by means of our senses,
614
00:41:46.119 --> 00:41:49.000
and the world which we can only access by means
615
00:41:49.039 --> 00:41:52.320
of our mind, by immaterial mind, it is no longer
616
00:41:52.360 --> 00:41:55.360
part of the material world, and that is rationality. And
617
00:41:55.400 --> 00:41:58.039
that leads us to the idea of the good, which
618
00:41:58.079 --> 00:42:01.400
is opposed to inform us about what the essence of
619
00:42:01.440 --> 00:42:05.039
the good life is for everyone. And basically one of
620
00:42:05.079 --> 00:42:09.400
the criticisms highlighted here so is basically, you know, in
621
00:42:09.440 --> 00:42:13.280
Plato that was associated with the sun, the sun is bright,
622
00:42:14.159 --> 00:42:16.639
and then in we're all sitting in the cave and
623
00:42:16.679 --> 00:42:20.199
the cave is dark, is black, and so according to
624
00:42:20.239 --> 00:42:23.880
the criticism and this interpretation which highlights also that you know,
625
00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:27.440
Christianity is platonism for the people. It stresses well sort
626
00:42:27.440 --> 00:42:31.519
of here the binary distinction, which says on a whiteness
627
00:42:31.559 --> 00:42:36.000
is superior, white supremacy, and and you know plaques, you know,
628
00:42:36.079 --> 00:42:40.639
blackness is inferior. This is the roots of racism. Is
629
00:42:40.679 --> 00:42:44.320
basically already part of that Western tradition which can be
630
00:42:44.599 --> 00:42:46.960
traced to Plato and then is taken over in the
631
00:42:47.039 --> 00:42:50.239
juday of Christian tradition. And it goes further because we
632
00:42:50.360 --> 00:42:54.639
access this rationality by means of our and the essentials
633
00:42:54.639 --> 00:42:59.320
by means of essential rationality, and the rationality is something
634
00:42:59.719 --> 00:43:04.400
and culturally identify then with the male, whereas you know,
635
00:43:04.840 --> 00:43:07.000
sitting in the in the sitting in the cave, it's
636
00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:11.119
sort of emotionality not being rational, and that's culturally associated
637
00:43:11.159 --> 00:43:14.480
with the female. Then again the criticism goes sort of
638
00:43:14.519 --> 00:43:18.000
this essentialist understanding of the world that the in essence
639
00:43:18.079 --> 00:43:23.280
is our rationality. We men are men in you know,
640
00:43:23.639 --> 00:43:28.480
absolutely essentially superior to women and sort of it's a
641
00:43:28.559 --> 00:43:32.559
fundamental structure which is related to sexism. And the second
642
00:43:32.679 --> 00:43:36.119
third step could be or is that sort of rationality
643
00:43:36.199 --> 00:43:43.239
is a typical, typical human characteristic, whereas animals are defined
644
00:43:43.280 --> 00:43:46.760
as being as being non rational in Cicero and others,
645
00:43:46.800 --> 00:43:50.199
many others. That's a traditional definition of you know, a
646
00:43:50.239 --> 00:43:54.119
way to explain rationality, the implication of rationality. So it's
647
00:43:54.119 --> 00:43:57.119
the essence of humans who are to be superior to
648
00:43:57.199 --> 00:44:00.920
the rest of all natural natural entities, and that's where
649
00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:05.280
speciesism comes from. So speciesism is basically like racism and sexism,
650
00:44:05.639 --> 00:44:12.239
is a morally illegitimate structure which claims the infinite superiority,
651
00:44:12.360 --> 00:44:16.760
the essential superiority of humans over other species and so on.
652
00:44:16.920 --> 00:44:19.159
But in the end, the problem really is it is
653
00:44:19.199 --> 00:44:22.760
about it is a claim of the essential claim of truth.
654
00:44:23.159 --> 00:44:26.440
This is valid for us, this is valid. This is
655
00:44:26.519 --> 00:44:29.199
valid for Nero's times. This would have been valid for
656
00:44:29.280 --> 00:44:32.360
the Neanderthals, this would have been valid for the beginning,
657
00:44:32.480 --> 00:44:36.000
you know, from the Big Bang onwards, in all different times.
658
00:44:36.239 --> 00:44:40.480
So that's completely absurd statement. Basically, you know, just the
659
00:44:40.880 --> 00:44:44.480
imagination to thinking that there are any type of essentialist,
660
00:44:44.920 --> 00:44:49.119
essentialist truth claiming. You know, it's it's something which is
661
00:44:49.159 --> 00:44:53.719
beyond evolution, and that's completely you know that that is
662
00:44:53.760 --> 00:44:59.920
dominated Western thinking for many millennia. However, it's a comp
663
00:45:00.159 --> 00:45:04.400
ate absurd, completely absurd thoughts. So it's absurd. And secondly,
664
00:45:04.480 --> 00:45:08.880
it leads to morally illegitimate types of discrimination. And so
665
00:45:09.320 --> 00:45:12.880
this is what this is what we've overcome culturally, overcome
666
00:45:12.960 --> 00:45:16.639
in the in the Enlightenment, after Darwin and Nietzsche and
667
00:45:16.679 --> 00:45:20.639
Freud and now and many transhumanists also in praise that,
668
00:45:21.079 --> 00:45:26.079
with some exceptions within classic transhumanism, for example. And so
669
00:45:26.239 --> 00:45:29.480
the essentialism is really the claim that there is something
670
00:45:29.559 --> 00:45:33.079
which is valid outside of time and space for all times.
671
00:45:33.320 --> 00:45:36.039
And I'm saying so, but many of these elements maybe
672
00:45:36.079 --> 00:45:38.920
which we you know, many of the elements. Actually there
673
00:45:38.920 --> 00:45:43.039
are some elements which are more ingrained than others. And
674
00:45:43.079 --> 00:45:45.880
this is where the evolutionary pot comes in. But when
675
00:45:45.920 --> 00:45:50.400
the evolutionary pot comes in, it's still not an essentialist claim.
676
00:45:50.519 --> 00:45:53.119
The claims where I talked about asymmetries and so on,
677
00:45:54.400 --> 00:45:57.400
it is because it's it's evolutionary. It changes and it
678
00:45:57.440 --> 00:45:59.719
will change. And we can influence evolution by means of
679
00:45:59.719 --> 00:46:01.800
by you know, by means of technologies, and that's a
680
00:46:01.800 --> 00:46:04.840
great thing. And so though that's why, you know, most
681
00:46:04.880 --> 00:46:07.960
of the transhumanists would would say this is this is
682
00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:13.960
a they would affirm a non essentialist understanding, with some exceptions.
683
00:46:15.239 --> 00:46:18.960
Yes, thank you very much Stefan for that answer, and
684
00:46:19.119 --> 00:46:24.000
David Wallace Croft also thanks you for the definition. Now,
685
00:46:24.559 --> 00:46:30.719
your critique of essentialism seems to be based on the
686
00:46:30.840 --> 00:46:36.039
characterization of essentialism within the Platonic framework. So the world
687
00:46:36.079 --> 00:46:41.719
of forms that exists outside of this material, ever changing
688
00:46:41.760 --> 00:46:46.679
world that we inhabit, and those forms are purported to
689
00:46:46.800 --> 00:46:52.440
be constant for all time, and that's where the essentialist perspective,
690
00:46:52.440 --> 00:46:55.440
as you see it comes from. Now I'm reminded of
691
00:46:55.840 --> 00:47:00.880
this picture. This is the school of Atha, and you
692
00:47:00.920 --> 00:47:08.000
can see here the images of Plato and Aristotle, where
693
00:47:08.400 --> 00:47:13.760
Plato is pointing upward and Aristotle is kind of gesturing
694
00:47:14.239 --> 00:47:18.639
down to the ground, to the material world. And Plato
695
00:47:18.639 --> 00:47:23.079
and Aristotle had a huge difference in terms of how
696
00:47:23.119 --> 00:47:27.119
they saw essences. So Plato saw the essences as being
697
00:47:27.880 --> 00:47:33.039
lodged in these transcendent forms. Aristotle saw essences as being
698
00:47:33.159 --> 00:47:37.800
in things themselves. So a chair has within it the
699
00:47:37.960 --> 00:47:41.679
essence of a chair at the chairness, and his view
700
00:47:42.199 --> 00:47:47.800
of essentialism would be the essentialism the essences are contained
701
00:47:47.880 --> 00:47:54.280
within the beings themselves, the entities themselves. So could that
702
00:47:54.639 --> 00:48:00.320
kind of essentialism be more responsive to change as well,
703
00:48:00.400 --> 00:48:05.039
because let's say an essence of a biological being is
704
00:48:05.360 --> 00:48:11.760
grounded in the biological nature or in the characteristics that
705
00:48:11.760 --> 00:48:16.199
that entity evolved to have. But those characteristics could change
706
00:48:16.239 --> 00:48:21.599
as well. And if we change those characteristics through some modifications,
707
00:48:21.719 --> 00:48:28.280
be they technological, or be they the result of changes
708
00:48:28.400 --> 00:48:33.719
to society that perhaps lead to different incentives, lead to
709
00:48:33.760 --> 00:48:38.199
different behaviors. Could that change the essence too, while keeping
710
00:48:38.320 --> 00:48:44.519
some manner of essence in the sense that as humans changes,
711
00:48:44.559 --> 00:48:48.840
the human organism change. We're not going to become rocks
712
00:48:48.920 --> 00:48:52.039
or trees, and we wouldn't be well served by behaving
713
00:48:52.199 --> 00:48:56.679
like rocks or trees, but we might be better served
714
00:48:56.679 --> 00:49:01.280
by behaving differently from how our ancestors be. So what
715
00:49:01.320 --> 00:49:05.960
would you say in that regard perhaps a more nuanced essentialism?
716
00:49:06.360 --> 00:49:08.800
Yeah, wonderful questions. Yeah, so what you know new and
717
00:49:09.000 --> 00:49:11.719
essentials is tricky, you know. Even even so what you
718
00:49:11.840 --> 00:49:14.400
described here, you know, I would have to go firstly
719
00:49:14.440 --> 00:49:18.119
say no, did did Aristotle and Plato actually differ? And
720
00:49:18.199 --> 00:49:21.000
many would say no, in the essence actually their claims that,
721
00:49:21.239 --> 00:49:24.559
you know, maybe even the same, because those Aristotle also claimed,
722
00:49:24.559 --> 00:49:29.079
at least concerning theoretical insight, there are some essences, some insights,
723
00:49:29.119 --> 00:49:33.280
theoretical insights which are universally valid, but sort of let
724
00:49:33.440 --> 00:49:36.000
let me move on without clarifying directly, you know, what
725
00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:39.400
what did Aristotle actually mean? Or how does Aristotle and
726
00:49:39.440 --> 00:49:45.119
play to relate? How so, so what you talked about,
727
00:49:45.719 --> 00:49:49.880
can we make sense of something like in essence within us?
728
00:49:50.239 --> 00:49:53.440
In essence within us which is not immaterial? So if
729
00:49:53.480 --> 00:49:56.079
it was a material, if it was something unchanging, then
730
00:49:56.159 --> 00:49:58.679
it would be nothing, you know, it would be really
731
00:49:58.960 --> 00:50:01.280
just the same as a platon idea. So that's not
732
00:50:01.320 --> 00:50:04.199
really interesting. This goes along with all the problematic types
733
00:50:04.199 --> 00:50:07.920
of discrimination and so on, and even insights implosable insights
734
00:50:07.920 --> 00:50:11.320
which we which I've already mentioned, what about if they're
735
00:50:11.320 --> 00:50:14.719
in within us? And if they're within us, you know,
736
00:50:15.679 --> 00:50:19.159
what is there anything in our bodies which doesn't change?
737
00:50:19.480 --> 00:50:22.239
You know, most parts of our bodies, ourselves are in
738
00:50:22.280 --> 00:50:26.159
the prominent process of change, you know, at least you know,
739
00:50:26.199 --> 00:50:30.000
ten eleven years. Besides our sort of there are some
740
00:50:30.280 --> 00:50:34.000
you know, the neurons, the neurons are actually quite stable.
741
00:50:34.719 --> 00:50:37.519
But even the neurons as such, there is we can
742
00:50:37.559 --> 00:50:41.960
actually generate neuros neurons when we're getting older, and they
743
00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:44.480
can get added and they can create it and they
744
00:50:44.519 --> 00:50:47.400
get into created into our brains. So even the neurons
745
00:50:47.719 --> 00:50:51.239
are not something we can can get created as well.
746
00:50:51.679 --> 00:50:55.519
And what about what about the genes. The genetic structure
747
00:50:55.639 --> 00:50:57.760
is part of our body. Well, you know, even as
748
00:50:57.840 --> 00:51:02.400
part of our epigenetic interactions with the environment. We can
749
00:51:02.440 --> 00:51:05.159
turn genes on and we can turn turns off, and
750
00:51:05.199 --> 00:51:09.039
how they relate to each other actually can be altered
751
00:51:09.119 --> 00:51:12.199
during the process of a lifetime. So even here these
752
00:51:12.239 --> 00:51:15.320
things might be more they are more stable, and I
753
00:51:15.360 --> 00:51:18.320
do acknowledge that. But even but they are still in
754
00:51:18.360 --> 00:51:21.400
the process of change, and they can be changed. So
755
00:51:21.440 --> 00:51:25.280
they can be changed as a consequence of environmental interactions
756
00:51:25.320 --> 00:51:28.000
of things which happen to us, you know, just you know,
757
00:51:28.159 --> 00:51:34.360
intensive ultraviolet rays or or even nutrition. But even intensive
758
00:51:34.400 --> 00:51:38.960
experiences we have can bring about epigenetic changes in the
759
00:51:39.039 --> 00:51:41.960
same way. So they come from outside. But now by
760
00:51:42.039 --> 00:51:44.920
means of chrispal cast nine and gene drives, it is
761
00:51:45.000 --> 00:51:49.239
possible to actually create these things ourselves. And this is
762
00:51:49.000 --> 00:51:51.000
this is this is why I don't like to talk
763
00:51:51.000 --> 00:51:54.199
about I don't like to talk about essences within us,
764
00:51:54.519 --> 00:51:57.719
because everything which is actually a part of our body
765
00:51:58.039 --> 00:52:01.920
in principle is contingent, is subject to change. I mean,
766
00:52:02.000 --> 00:52:04.679
there are some things which are more difficult to change
767
00:52:04.719 --> 00:52:08.599
than other things, and sort of the cultural elements, and
768
00:52:08.679 --> 00:52:11.400
sort of concerning the cultural elements, I want to highlight
769
00:52:11.440 --> 00:52:14.639
sort of let's say, you know, seventy years ago, it
770
00:52:14.719 --> 00:52:19.920
was widely it was widely acknowledged, you know, homosexual sexuality
771
00:52:20.039 --> 00:52:24.519
was you know, crime still according to many constitutions. Now
772
00:52:24.559 --> 00:52:27.480
seventy years later, you know, we've got marriage for all
773
00:52:27.519 --> 00:52:31.079
and even your further claims. So culturally, these things can
774
00:52:31.159 --> 00:52:37.199
change enormously fast. However, parts of our body they don't
775
00:52:37.280 --> 00:52:39.519
change so fast. So that's why I think sort of
776
00:52:39.519 --> 00:52:42.559
the evolutionary heritage, and that's why also stress some of
777
00:52:42.559 --> 00:52:47.440
the insights concerning evolutionary psychology. They are more firmly ingrained
778
00:52:47.559 --> 00:52:53.119
in parts of psychophysiological structures, but that doesn't mean their essences,
779
00:52:53.320 --> 00:52:57.239
because even they can be altered by means of psychotherapies,
780
00:52:57.280 --> 00:53:00.800
by means of by means of genetic or even chemical interventions.
781
00:53:00.960 --> 00:53:04.679
And so that's why I hesitate. I find the use
782
00:53:04.760 --> 00:53:10.280
of essences within us really misleading because they seem to apply,
783
00:53:10.559 --> 00:53:13.159
or they seem to have the connotations of there still
784
00:53:13.199 --> 00:53:16.719
as this there was still like an immaterial personalities we
785
00:53:16.840 --> 00:53:20.519
have which it cannot change, just like a platonic idea,
786
00:53:20.599 --> 00:53:24.400
And that's why they their levels of their levels of encrustedness.
787
00:53:25.639 --> 00:53:28.320
Some are more firmly encrusted than others. But in the end,
788
00:53:28.400 --> 00:53:31.599
all the structures within us are contingent. And that's why
789
00:53:31.599 --> 00:53:33.880
I don't like to talk about essences within us.
790
00:53:35.000 --> 00:53:39.159
Yes, thank you for that explanation and clarification. So you
791
00:53:39.199 --> 00:53:44.440
would reject the idea of any unchanging essence? Would you say?
792
00:53:45.119 --> 00:53:51.159
There are some objective qualities, at least at any given time,
793
00:53:51.960 --> 00:53:59.960
which would let's say, suggest or even necessitate certain courses
794
00:54:00.119 --> 00:54:03.880
of action as being better or worse. Say, if we're
795
00:54:03.920 --> 00:54:07.239
biological entities right now, maybe we won't be in a
796
00:54:07.320 --> 00:54:10.480
thousand years. But if we are right now, then eating
797
00:54:10.519 --> 00:54:14.400
food is objectively good for us. Eating poison is not
798
00:54:14.480 --> 00:54:17.960
objectively good for us. It will harm us, maybe kill us.
799
00:54:18.480 --> 00:54:21.760
If in a thousand years we come to have, say,
800
00:54:21.840 --> 00:54:27.719
cybernetic bodies and really durable ones, then perhaps the same
801
00:54:27.760 --> 00:54:30.880
poison that would kill a biological organism today would not
802
00:54:31.320 --> 00:54:35.039
kill that body, It would have no effect on that body.
803
00:54:35.480 --> 00:54:39.239
But at any given point in time, would there still
804
00:54:39.280 --> 00:54:43.599
be objective ways to consider what is good for an entity,
805
00:54:43.960 --> 00:54:45.519
and what is not good for an entity?
806
00:54:46.079 --> 00:54:50.079
Great question. So again the question is here you using
807
00:54:50.119 --> 00:54:53.440
the terminal objective. And I don't think any you know,
808
00:54:53.519 --> 00:54:57.920
any even scientific insides are objective. But that doesn't mean,
809
00:54:58.000 --> 00:55:01.480
of course I trust scientific insides. You know, you know,
810
00:55:01.519 --> 00:55:07.280
they're for example, scientific insights, for example, out other results.
811
00:55:07.400 --> 00:55:12.119
We can reproduce scientific experiment, experiments, and the more often
812
00:55:12.159 --> 00:55:17.800
something gets gets reproduced, the more reliable it seems to be.
813
00:55:18.199 --> 00:55:21.360
But you know, also one seem to be like and
814
00:55:21.400 --> 00:55:23.719
then suddenly applex one comes up, and then we need
815
00:55:23.760 --> 00:55:26.880
to integrate that into a theory. That's a problem of induction,
816
00:55:27.039 --> 00:55:30.079
you know, that's a problem of any scientific theory. The
817
00:55:30.119 --> 00:55:33.280
future might not be as as it was in the past.
818
00:55:33.599 --> 00:55:36.800
So that's why I sort of hesitate and hesitate to
819
00:55:37.039 --> 00:55:40.559
use the term objective in these contexts. I said, some
820
00:55:40.559 --> 00:55:43.679
some are more stable, some are better founded, some are
821
00:55:43.760 --> 00:55:46.639
more reliable, you know, even the person. So you know,
822
00:55:46.800 --> 00:55:48.880
I don't want to sound to post you know, post
823
00:55:48.920 --> 00:55:52.360
modern if I say everything is just continuously as a
824
00:55:52.360 --> 00:55:54.840
matter of increevement in the end, I do subscribe to
825
00:55:54.880 --> 00:55:58.360
that understanding. But that doesn't mean I doubt the validity
826
00:55:58.400 --> 00:56:00.920
of science, of course, you know, anyone who you know
827
00:56:01.320 --> 00:56:05.920
stresses the relevance of interpretation and the relevance of things
828
00:56:05.960 --> 00:56:08.599
being contingent. And who gets on board of the plane,
829
00:56:08.840 --> 00:56:12.880
you know what perform would committed performative self contradiction. You know,
830
00:56:12.920 --> 00:56:15.119
if you, if you you only you only go on
831
00:56:15.119 --> 00:56:18.119
to fly with a plane, if you because it's reliable,
832
00:56:18.119 --> 00:56:20.840
because you know, chances are very good that your rife
833
00:56:20.960 --> 00:56:23.559
safely where you fly want to fly to. And why
834
00:56:23.639 --> 00:56:28.360
that's because scientific scientific insights mean something. They are valid.
835
00:56:28.480 --> 00:56:31.599
You know, they're valid. They're not objective, but they within
836
00:56:31.719 --> 00:56:35.760
the context, within our framing, they usually work. Once we
837
00:56:35.960 --> 00:56:38.639
move to Mars, once we move to a different planet
838
00:56:38.880 --> 00:56:41.159
we need to we might have to adapt some of
839
00:56:41.159 --> 00:56:44.400
our insights, they might no longer work. Maybe maybe even
840
00:56:44.760 --> 00:56:47.800
on Earth, given different specific changes occur, they might no
841
00:56:47.880 --> 00:56:50.159
longer work. That's why I'm not using I'm not using
842
00:56:50.199 --> 00:56:53.159
the term objective in the sense because it doesn't lead
843
00:56:53.199 --> 00:56:56.760
to that, you know, but it doesn't lead to that universalidity.
844
00:56:57.039 --> 00:56:58.960
But you know, they're they're you know, they are valid.
845
00:56:59.280 --> 00:57:03.280
They are truths, they are scientific truths, and I strongly,
846
00:57:03.360 --> 00:57:06.639
you know, hold on to scientific truths. Whatever we find
847
00:57:06.639 --> 00:57:09.760
out by means of by means of this natural scientists
848
00:57:10.119 --> 00:57:13.519
clearly is the scientific truth. The scientific truth is different
849
00:57:13.519 --> 00:57:17.760
from a philosophical truth, which claims objectivity and universal validity.
850
00:57:18.079 --> 00:57:20.679
But within the framing of the thing we take, of course,
851
00:57:20.719 --> 00:57:23.199
these things work and we can rely upon them. And
852
00:57:23.519 --> 00:57:28.159
I love these scientific insights. And so again that's why
853
00:57:28.159 --> 00:57:30.719
I'm hesitant of saying I wouldn't use the term objective.
854
00:57:30.960 --> 00:57:33.079
I would only use the term objective if there was
855
00:57:33.239 --> 00:57:38.760
really some traditional Judaeo Christian platonic framing, where you have
856
00:57:38.880 --> 00:57:43.320
something actually exists and it can never not exist. However,
857
00:57:44.079 --> 00:57:47.360
so there are different label levels of security we can
858
00:57:47.400 --> 00:57:50.920
rely on. And scientific truths are wonderful insight, and the
859
00:57:50.960 --> 00:57:53.480
same applies, I mean, and and some of these inside
860
00:57:53.559 --> 00:57:58.000
might ever relevance concerning how we act. And that's why
861
00:57:58.119 --> 00:58:01.400
that's why I was highlighting evolutionary ecology. There are some,
862
00:58:01.639 --> 00:58:06.280
you know, there are some, there are some emotional responses
863
00:58:06.519 --> 00:58:12.000
concerning others which are the results of our evolutionary heritage.
864
00:58:12.400 --> 00:58:15.079
And I was and that's what I read. So Nancy
865
00:58:15.119 --> 00:58:18.199
Atkov has done an amazing study. I mean, this is
866
00:58:18.239 --> 00:58:21.360
a really strongly want to highlight that book for example,
867
00:58:21.960 --> 00:58:26.400
how we respond to beauty and and and sort of
868
00:58:26.440 --> 00:58:29.440
she's drawn upon on a lot of different experiments all
869
00:58:29.480 --> 00:58:32.199
over the world in different cultures, and she basically found
870
00:58:32.239 --> 00:58:34.840
out no, the you know, evolution and the responses to
871
00:58:34.880 --> 00:58:37.280
beauty and so they come up in different parts of
872
00:58:37.320 --> 00:58:40.480
the world. And so for example, she she studied the
873
00:58:40.920 --> 00:58:46.360
relationship of parents to children, and and so she didn't
874
00:58:46.400 --> 00:58:49.599
mention the psychologist who made the experiments. They didn't mention,
875
00:58:50.599 --> 00:58:53.559
they didn't mention what they investigate. They just looked and
876
00:58:53.599 --> 00:58:58.280
studied how how closely, how intimately, how longly parents hold
877
00:58:58.320 --> 00:59:01.440
their kids in their arms, the children in their arms,
878
00:59:01.639 --> 00:59:06.440
and what they basically what the study basically showed was well,
879
00:59:06.519 --> 00:59:10.199
if if the child is beautiful, the parents, you know,
880
00:59:10.239 --> 00:59:13.960
in all cases, parents usually usually take care and love
881
00:59:14.159 --> 00:59:17.880
and support their children. But if but if, but if
882
00:59:17.880 --> 00:59:21.119
a child is beautiful, the more beautiful a child is,
883
00:59:21.159 --> 00:59:24.639
then parents love to caress, love, to actually hold their
884
00:59:24.719 --> 00:59:28.039
child longer in their arms than when the child is ugly.
885
00:59:28.440 --> 00:59:31.559
And basically sort of the notion of beauty and ugliness
886
00:59:31.599 --> 00:59:35.719
here really refer to some traditional notions like symmetry, the
887
00:59:35.760 --> 00:59:39.199
golden mean, harmony, these things. And you know, and I
888
00:59:39.199 --> 00:59:43.159
wouldn't claim symmetry harmony and and and the gold mean,
889
00:59:43.199 --> 00:59:45.920
for example, their university valid as it was claimed for
890
00:59:45.960 --> 00:59:49.039
example in the medieval and the Platonic tradition.
891
00:59:49.480 --> 00:59:54.840
However, they are related. They are related to basically help factors.
892
00:59:55.320 --> 00:59:58.760
They are related to evolutionary factors. And we cherish healths.
893
00:59:58.960 --> 01:00:00.599
We cherish health in enormously.
894
01:00:00.960 --> 01:00:03.920
And that's why we that's why it can be found
895
01:00:04.000 --> 01:00:07.840
that that's why such responses to beauty have actually become
896
01:00:07.960 --> 01:00:12.599
a firm part of psychophysiological constitution. And you know, you
897
01:00:12.639 --> 01:00:15.719
can you can you know, sing a very tonal song,
898
01:00:16.039 --> 01:00:19.360
a tonal song to young children at the age of five,
899
01:00:19.639 --> 01:00:22.480
and you can do that in Botswana, in India, or
900
01:00:22.639 --> 01:00:26.079
in in in in Italy, and and the response is
901
01:00:26.119 --> 01:00:31.239
always the same. Some certain total harmonies, harmonious relationship songs.
902
01:00:31.360 --> 01:00:34.639
You know, the children love that. And then you confront
903
01:00:34.679 --> 01:00:37.119
the same kind of children. Then you come from the
904
01:00:37.119 --> 01:00:41.679
same children with with Schinberger, Stockhausen and some radical avant
905
01:00:41.679 --> 01:00:44.480
garde music, and they will hate it, they don't relate
906
01:00:44.519 --> 01:00:47.480
to it. Does that mean that harmony is valid or
907
01:00:47.599 --> 01:00:51.559
is universally valid? That's an that's an objective insight, of course,
908
01:00:51.599 --> 01:00:54.159
it doesn't mean that. It just means that we need
909
01:00:54.199 --> 01:00:58.599
to take evolutionary factors into consideration. And the evolutionary factor
910
01:00:58.679 --> 01:01:01.800
is here which comes into play that sort of harmony symmetry.
911
01:01:01.920 --> 01:01:06.519
Goal mean, these elements which have traditionally been associated with
912
01:01:06.679 --> 01:01:10.719
something like health, and from an evolutionary perspective, healths plays
913
01:01:10.760 --> 01:01:14.639
an enormously important role for us human beings and health
914
01:01:14.760 --> 01:01:17.480
is something and this again has also been studied by
915
01:01:17.800 --> 01:01:21.760
evolutionary psychologists, you know, they've found out and there was
916
01:01:21.800 --> 01:01:24.800
a study in the United States, for example, which basically
917
01:01:25.400 --> 01:01:28.239
ask people, if they are one hundred and twenty years
918
01:01:28.239 --> 01:01:33.760
old and we're completely healthy, would you want to keep
919
01:01:33.840 --> 01:01:36.360
on living? Do you want to have an expanded health
920
01:01:36.360 --> 01:01:39.239
span if you're one hundred and twenty and the response
921
01:01:39.400 --> 01:01:43.039
was about eighty percent of the population said yes, we
922
01:01:43.119 --> 01:01:46.719
want to do so. And you know, that completely makes
923
01:01:46.760 --> 01:01:50.199
sense from an evolutionary perspective. Does it mean that being
924
01:01:50.239 --> 01:01:54.480
healthy is something moral obligation. No, it doesn't mean that,
925
01:01:54.760 --> 01:01:57.719
but it makes sense for most people that you know,
926
01:01:57.840 --> 01:02:00.119
for most people, health is important and that's why it
927
01:02:00.119 --> 01:02:03.079
shouldn't matter politically as well. For example, that's why the
928
01:02:03.159 --> 01:02:05.800
regulation in the United States that there is no universal
929
01:02:05.840 --> 01:02:09.320
healthcare system is really a par terrible decision, and that's
930
01:02:09.360 --> 01:02:13.119
why the life expectancy the life and that has consequences
931
01:02:13.119 --> 01:02:16.480
for the people in the United States where people live
932
01:02:16.639 --> 01:02:18.599
like four or five years less than they do in
933
01:02:18.639 --> 01:02:21.639
the European Union, where basically they do have a universal
934
01:02:21.639 --> 01:02:24.159
healthcare system. But you see, I just want to stress O,
935
01:02:24.400 --> 01:02:28.760
look look at the evolutionary factor there. We do not
936
01:02:28.880 --> 01:02:33.320
get necessary insights, we do not get objectivity, but we
937
01:02:33.440 --> 01:02:37.360
get empirical insights which need to be taken into consideration.
938
01:02:37.719 --> 01:02:39.480
Also concerning the issue of sex.
939
01:02:41.559 --> 01:02:46.199
Yes, thank you very much Steffan for that clarification. So
940
01:02:47.000 --> 01:02:50.880
it seems that you do think there are courses of
941
01:02:51.039 --> 01:02:56.119
action or properties that have actual validity. But it's a
942
01:02:56.199 --> 01:03:04.679
contextual validity. It's not universe and immutably the case always
943
01:03:04.960 --> 01:03:08.599
in all contexts across time. It's dependent on the context.
944
01:03:08.599 --> 01:03:10.320
But it is very real within that.
945
01:03:10.199 --> 01:03:13.880
Context, exactly, absolutely, and but at the same time by
946
01:03:13.920 --> 01:03:17.159
acknowledging that, it also means not in principle. You know,
947
01:03:17.199 --> 01:03:21.920
if we've got a certain genetic condition, you know, it's
948
01:03:21.719 --> 01:03:25.880
it's it's that's a contingent hypothesis about us. We works
949
01:03:25.880 --> 01:03:29.039
in progress. You know, we can you know, if we realize,
950
01:03:29.159 --> 01:03:31.880
you know, we've got a reliable way of making us livering,
951
01:03:31.920 --> 01:03:34.800
you know, having a twenty years increased health span, you know,
952
01:03:35.239 --> 01:03:37.119
and someone wants to live and most people want to
953
01:03:37.119 --> 01:03:39.440
live longer healthily, then we should. Actually it's it's it's
954
01:03:39.519 --> 01:03:42.639
visable for most people to do. So it really makes sense.
955
01:03:42.679 --> 01:03:46.440
And it's there's no natural union, there's no natural order
956
01:03:46.760 --> 01:03:52.800
which basically should force them to actually to remain unchanged.
957
01:03:52.800 --> 01:03:56.920
There is no necessary objective demand, you know, the natural order.
958
01:03:58.079 --> 01:04:01.800
We shouldn't do so God has great in that specific manner,
959
01:04:03.000 --> 01:04:06.559
and that's it's God's gift, and that's we shouldn't remove
960
01:04:06.639 --> 01:04:10.760
God's gift. Now, these are possibilities, you know, they're currently
961
01:04:10.840 --> 01:04:13.000
is the situation. We can probably lived at the most
962
01:04:13.039 --> 01:04:15.480
one hundred and twenty two years. But you know, if
963
01:04:15.519 --> 01:04:18.039
we can change that, and you know, if you want
964
01:04:18.039 --> 01:04:20.559
to do that, and we can change everything, and that
965
01:04:20.719 --> 01:04:22.719
is sort of the funder That is sort of the
966
01:04:22.800 --> 01:04:28.800
fascinating insight. Everything really, everything is contingent, Everything is subject
967
01:04:28.840 --> 01:04:31.480
to change. You know, some things are more firmly, more
968
01:04:31.559 --> 01:04:34.639
mole difficult to change than others. But this is a
969
01:04:34.679 --> 01:04:38.719
strong move away from basically this traditional insight which is
970
01:04:38.840 --> 01:04:44.000
dominated centuries, which is dominated millennia. There's a world order
971
01:04:44.159 --> 01:04:48.719
which is natural, which you shouldn't change, and that's where
972
01:04:48.880 --> 01:04:51.559
so the evolutionary factor plays a role. But on the
973
01:04:51.599 --> 01:04:54.559
other hand, but on the other hand, the cultural factor
974
01:04:54.559 --> 01:04:57.679
also plays a role. And this is where morphological freedom
975
01:04:57.800 --> 01:05:00.639
comes in and and sort of the cultural itself the domination.
976
01:05:01.079 --> 01:05:03.440
You know, if there's a if there's if there are
977
01:05:03.440 --> 01:05:05.320
people and there were people in the in the UK
978
01:05:05.480 --> 01:05:08.400
who said, look, I've got I don't see myself as
979
01:05:08.440 --> 01:05:10.920
health you know, my left leg is healthy, it's fully healthy,
980
01:05:11.159 --> 01:05:15.320
it's functional, and but I don't I personally don't. I
981
01:05:15.320 --> 01:05:18.000
don't like my left leg. I don't see myself as
982
01:05:18.039 --> 01:05:22.199
having a left lag. I don't need a health insurance
983
01:05:22.199 --> 01:05:24.599
to pay for me. I don't need any any handing
984
01:05:24.679 --> 01:05:28.039
support from social securities later on in my life. I'm
985
01:05:28.119 --> 01:05:31.119
financially stable. I can take care of all of that myself.
986
01:05:31.280 --> 01:05:33.599
I want to help, but I hate my left leg.
987
01:05:33.800 --> 01:05:36.239
I want to help my left leg removed. You know,
988
01:05:36.320 --> 01:05:38.360
then the person should have the right to have their
989
01:05:38.440 --> 01:05:41.679
left leg removed, you know, if someone is willing to
990
01:05:41.880 --> 01:05:45.760
perform the surgery. But there's no natural order which says, look,
991
01:05:45.800 --> 01:05:49.840
the person is is is ill or is handing, you know,
992
01:05:50.000 --> 01:05:54.360
is the person is mentally ill needs to need some psychotherapy?
993
01:05:54.679 --> 01:05:57.039
Now it is it is this is That's why it's
994
01:05:57.039 --> 01:05:59.599
sort of on the one traditionally my cherished you know,
995
01:05:59.760 --> 01:06:02.840
I've polutionary factory. It might not be helpful, you know,
996
01:06:02.960 --> 01:06:05.639
to remove your left lag, and that you know, that
997
01:06:05.679 --> 01:06:08.079
will surely be a thought will which that person has
998
01:06:08.119 --> 01:06:11.119
at too. But from the concerning the cultural framing, the
999
01:06:11.119 --> 01:06:14.320
cultural self understanding that person has, you know, the person
1000
01:06:14.400 --> 01:06:17.760
sees themselves as a as someone without that left lag,
1001
01:06:17.840 --> 01:06:20.079
and and and there's it's they are not a burden
1002
01:06:20.119 --> 01:06:22.280
to anyone, so why shouldn't they They have the right
1003
01:06:22.360 --> 01:06:24.599
to remove their healthy left lag. And this is sort
1004
01:06:24.639 --> 01:06:27.199
of where this is understanding. It removes a lot of
1005
01:06:27.440 --> 01:06:31.159
even the criteria for a functional definition of health, for
1006
01:06:31.239 --> 01:06:34.320
a functional definition of what is a healthy and strong
1007
01:06:34.360 --> 01:06:37.239
of flourishing human beings. And that's why I'm so hesitant
1008
01:06:37.280 --> 01:06:40.519
concerning a lot of the uses of enhancement, in the
1009
01:06:40.599 --> 01:06:44.119
same way as I'm hesitant concerning the criticism of critical
1010
01:06:44.119 --> 01:06:48.360
posthumanists concerning vulnerability because in the end, you know, many
1011
01:06:48.360 --> 01:06:51.519
of the and what counts as enhancement, you know, there's
1012
01:06:51.559 --> 01:06:54.079
not the universal criteria of what counts. In the end,
1013
01:06:54.159 --> 01:06:56.599
it comes down to the individual. And that's why I'm
1014
01:06:56.599 --> 01:07:00.800
particularly cherishing the notion of morphological freedom, and that they
1015
01:07:00.840 --> 01:07:02.800
you know, you know, a person should have the right
1016
01:07:02.840 --> 01:07:06.719
to praise their own understanding and and and as long
1017
01:07:06.760 --> 01:07:09.440
as they don't harm another person and fully live on
1018
01:07:09.480 --> 01:07:13.519
the basis, live on the basis of these decisions without
1019
01:07:13.559 --> 01:07:14.800
any external infringement.
1020
01:07:16.400 --> 01:07:19.239
Yes, thank you for your answer. Stuff on. And of course,
1021
01:07:19.320 --> 01:07:26.599
morphological freedom is a strongly held value among transhumanists, and
1022
01:07:26.920 --> 01:07:30.719
in the United States Transhumanist Party, we have section six
1023
01:07:31.199 --> 01:07:37.039
of our platform which does speak to morphological freedom. It states,
1024
01:07:37.079 --> 01:07:41.440
the United States Transhumanist Party upholds morphological freedom the right
1025
01:07:41.519 --> 01:07:46.199
to do with one's physical attributes or intelligence whateverone wants,
1026
01:07:46.360 --> 01:07:50.920
so long as it does not directly harm others. And
1027
01:07:50.960 --> 01:07:54.800
then we set forth a variety of examples of what
1028
01:07:54.960 --> 01:08:01.400
constitutes morphological freedom, including, for instance, setting forth provisions for
1029
01:08:01.760 --> 01:08:06.039
how one would be handled if one were to enter
1030
01:08:06.320 --> 01:08:11.519
into a vegetative or unconscious or similarly inactive state, including,
1031
01:08:11.599 --> 01:08:14.840
for instance, the freedom of a cryonics patient to choose
1032
01:08:14.880 --> 01:08:19.119
to be cryo preserved. Even if the legal and cultural
1033
01:08:19.159 --> 01:08:21.720
norms of a society say that that person is dead,
1034
01:08:22.079 --> 01:08:25.000
that person should still have the right to direct in
1035
01:08:25.079 --> 01:08:31.159
advance that this cryopreservation procedure be undertaken, and others should
1036
01:08:31.239 --> 01:08:36.079
not be able to veto that. Whether those be say
1037
01:08:36.119 --> 01:08:40.039
governmental bodies or family members, A person should have that right.
1038
01:08:40.439 --> 01:08:45.000
So this is one area in which we do agree. Now,
1039
01:08:45.640 --> 01:08:50.039
one difference, or perhaps nuance, would be if somebody tried
1040
01:08:50.119 --> 01:08:54.479
to amputate a healthy left leg and they weren't trying
1041
01:08:54.479 --> 01:09:00.520
to replace it with a super functional prosthetic leg, then
1042
01:09:01.000 --> 01:09:04.000
I would, if I were in a position to communicate
1043
01:09:04.039 --> 01:09:08.079
with that person, try to inform that person, well, look,
1044
01:09:08.119 --> 01:09:10.960
you are going to lose a lot of functionality by
1045
01:09:11.000 --> 01:09:13.760
doing this, and I know that you think you can
1046
01:09:13.800 --> 01:09:19.439
compensate for it, but your life would be easier in
1047
01:09:19.520 --> 01:09:23.359
practice if you had your left leg at least until
1048
01:09:23.399 --> 01:09:28.319
you can replace it with a functional robotic prosthetic if
1049
01:09:28.359 --> 01:09:32.439
you really don't like the biological left leg. And I
1050
01:09:32.439 --> 01:09:35.199
wouldn't say it should be illegal for someone to do this.
1051
01:09:35.640 --> 01:09:39.199
I wouldn't say coercion should be applied to prevent someone
1052
01:09:39.279 --> 01:09:42.199
from doing this, but I would say there are wiser
1053
01:09:42.600 --> 01:09:45.640
and less wise courses of action.
1054
01:09:46.239 --> 01:09:48.439
Just like, would you do that? Would you say that
1055
01:09:48.439 --> 01:09:51.119
to anyone you know? Oh? Would you only say that
1056
01:09:51.159 --> 01:09:53.560
to people who your friends are near and dear to you?
1057
01:09:54.680 --> 01:09:58.439
Well, I mean I could say this to anybody who
1058
01:09:59.000 --> 01:10:01.560
is in a position to hear me publicly right now.
1059
01:10:01.600 --> 01:10:04.640
If you're thinking of amputating your left leg and you
1060
01:10:04.720 --> 01:10:08.000
don't have anything better to replace it with, I would
1061
01:10:08.000 --> 01:10:10.960
recommend that you not do that. So even if you're
1062
01:10:11.000 --> 01:10:13.079
not my friend, even if you're my enemy and I
1063
01:10:13.239 --> 01:10:18.319
dislike you, I would still recommend and I would think
1064
01:10:18.359 --> 01:10:20.800
that it is better for you if you had two
1065
01:10:20.880 --> 01:10:24.960
functional legs, whatever the composition of those legs, or more
1066
01:10:25.000 --> 01:10:27.000
than one functional leg. If you want to have three
1067
01:10:27.119 --> 01:10:31.720
or five or twelve eventually, that's your choice, but don't
1068
01:10:31.800 --> 01:10:34.760
get rid of functionality. That's mycause.
1069
01:10:34.760 --> 01:10:37.399
You're the same with someone who's who wants to have
1070
01:10:38.159 --> 01:10:43.960
whose transgender, who wants to have the sexual organs alterned,
1071
01:10:44.279 --> 01:10:47.279
because then it becomes from a functional sexual organs to
1072
01:10:47.279 --> 01:10:50.640
to becoming a dysfunctional sexual organ isn't that the same thing.
1073
01:10:51.960 --> 01:10:55.479
Well, in that case, I would say, and I've said
1074
01:10:55.479 --> 01:11:00.199
this before, and we did have a salon where we
1075
01:11:00.399 --> 01:11:10.119
discuss transgender and transidentity issues. So think about what is
1076
01:11:10.199 --> 01:11:15.960
really important for your flourishing, and that includes any physical
1077
01:11:16.640 --> 01:11:21.680
implications thereof. So I think you made that point too,
1078
01:11:21.800 --> 01:11:27.920
that there's a wide range of sexual identities and manifestations
1079
01:11:28.000 --> 01:11:32.680
and for some people they might not have certain desires
1080
01:11:32.680 --> 01:11:35.039
that other people do, or they might have those desires
1081
01:11:35.079 --> 01:11:40.199
that manifest differently. So from my standpoint, I would say,
1082
01:11:40.239 --> 01:11:43.640
think about what you really want as an individual and
1083
01:11:45.079 --> 01:11:49.640
what would improve your quality of life in such a
1084
01:11:49.680 --> 01:11:52.560
manner that you will not regret later on. So this
1085
01:11:52.640 --> 01:11:56.760
is where, for instance, the US Transhumanist Party definitely supports
1086
01:11:56.800 --> 01:12:00.039
this kind of morphological freedom, the right of people to
1087
01:12:00.319 --> 01:12:05.159
modify their gender undergo any sorts of surgeries or procedures
1088
01:12:05.680 --> 01:12:08.520
if they're older than the age of consent, So in
1089
01:12:09.039 --> 01:12:13.439
our contemporary Western societies this is after the age of eighteen.
1090
01:12:13.720 --> 01:12:16.079
But the reason why we wouldn't support it for children,
1091
01:12:16.640 --> 01:12:20.560
in large part is because children don't yet know fully
1092
01:12:20.680 --> 01:12:24.479
what they want. They haven't yet fully developed the faculty
1093
01:12:24.560 --> 01:12:27.680
to know, so there is, in my view, a large
1094
01:12:28.560 --> 01:12:32.239
risk that they might choose to regret whatever procedure they
1095
01:12:32.279 --> 01:12:35.359
decided to have as children or teenagers. So I would
1096
01:12:35.399 --> 01:12:42.560
say to any person, think about what you truly want
1097
01:12:42.880 --> 01:12:46.159
and will find fulfillment in, and make the kind of
1098
01:12:46.279 --> 01:12:49.680
decision that you will be able to look back on,
1099
01:12:50.319 --> 01:12:53.800
hopefully many years, decades, centuries later and say, yes, this
1100
01:12:54.000 --> 01:12:55.760
was the right decision. I don't regret it.
1101
01:12:57.920 --> 01:13:01.479
But you wouldn't say it's illegal, and that would you
1102
01:13:01.520 --> 01:13:02.520
say it is immoral?
1103
01:13:04.720 --> 01:13:08.960
Well, I wouldn't go that far. If they're not hurting
1104
01:13:09.000 --> 01:13:14.399
somebody else. I would say it might be. If it's
1105
01:13:14.439 --> 01:13:17.960
a choice that they made that they regret later on,
1106
01:13:18.600 --> 01:13:23.239
I would say that's tragic, that that's sad, that maybe
1107
01:13:23.479 --> 01:13:27.680
there could be a different way that they could have acted.
1108
01:13:28.079 --> 01:13:31.800
But I would say, just really think about all the
1109
01:13:31.840 --> 01:13:35.439
implications of such choices, and the more consequential the choices,
1110
01:13:35.520 --> 01:13:37.880
the more you should think about the implications whatever that
1111
01:13:38.000 --> 01:13:42.720
may be, whether it's with legs or gender changes or
1112
01:13:42.920 --> 01:13:44.680
any other major life decision.
1113
01:13:45.079 --> 01:13:49.039
Absolutely, and I think we're in complete agreement in that respect,
1114
01:13:49.079 --> 01:13:52.840
because it shouldn't be legal these choices, and I don't
1115
01:13:52.840 --> 01:13:56.159
think it's immoral and concerning the individual decision. There's such
1116
01:13:56.159 --> 01:13:59.279
a great variety of different concepts of the good, you know,
1117
01:13:59.359 --> 01:14:03.039
what really corresponds to their tribes, to this bundle of
1118
01:14:03.119 --> 01:14:06.239
tries which they themselves are. You know, it is very
1119
01:14:06.239 --> 01:14:09.000
difficult for a third person to make a judgment concerning
1120
01:14:09.119 --> 01:14:11.960
what is in the interest. And the decisive factor and
1121
01:14:12.000 --> 01:14:15.039
the decisive factor for such and ethics of autonomy to
1122
01:14:15.079 --> 01:14:18.119
really get an understanding is that people need to get
1123
01:14:18.159 --> 01:14:21.159
an understanding what actually, you know, what actually is in
1124
01:14:21.199 --> 01:14:25.119
the interest without there being any without there being any
1125
01:14:25.159 --> 01:14:28.359
stable core which corresponds that is actually in the interest,
1126
01:14:28.600 --> 01:14:31.600
because even the bundle of tribes are permanently changing, so
1127
01:14:31.800 --> 01:14:35.760
there's no essential core which always corresponds. But there's something
1128
01:14:35.760 --> 01:14:38.680
which is further ingrained than other things. And that's why
1129
01:14:38.720 --> 01:14:43.880
we need to train. We need to establish the prerequisites,
1130
01:14:43.960 --> 01:14:46.079
and that's where the virtues come in. We need to
1131
01:14:46.159 --> 01:14:51.479
establish certain virtues and promote specific virtues that people realize
1132
01:14:51.720 --> 01:14:54.760
what is more core, what is more central to their
1133
01:14:54.800 --> 01:14:57.279
bundle of tries than other things. And that's why I'm
1134
01:14:57.319 --> 01:15:02.239
in the EU Transhumance book. I'm highlighting virtues like mindfulness, truthfulness,
1135
01:15:02.319 --> 01:15:05.680
and self control because they are alot. These three elements
1136
01:15:05.720 --> 01:15:11.079
are as central prerequisites for basically realizing, for realizing what
1137
01:15:11.079 --> 01:15:14.199
what is more closely in your in your interest than
1138
01:15:14.279 --> 01:15:18.199
other things. So with respect to with respect to mindfulness,
1139
01:15:18.199 --> 01:15:21.760
it is you analyze, you analyze, you know what it's
1140
01:15:21.760 --> 01:15:25.239
so easy to get to get from your your peers,
1141
01:15:25.279 --> 01:15:27.800
from your friends. You move to a different culture and
1142
01:15:27.840 --> 01:15:30.840
everyone says no, you should, you know, have a good time,
1143
01:15:31.439 --> 01:15:34.640
enjoy your life while you're young, you know, travel from
1144
01:15:34.760 --> 01:15:37.079
you know, two months there, two months there, Just have
1145
01:15:37.159 --> 01:15:40.079
a great time. And then you know, is that really
1146
01:15:40.079 --> 01:15:44.199
in your interest? Go analyze yourself what you actually want
1147
01:15:44.960 --> 01:15:48.319
or do you have a specific different understanding of different what?
1148
01:15:48.319 --> 01:15:49.960
What is your goal in life? Do you want to
1149
01:15:49.960 --> 01:15:53.359
have some stable relationships later on? Is that? Isn't that
1150
01:15:53.399 --> 01:15:56.800
maybe not undermining maybe your relationship later on if you've lived,
1151
01:15:56.880 --> 01:16:00.840
like you know, in such a lose manner before. Then
1152
01:16:01.119 --> 01:16:06.239
truthfulness truthfulness doesn't mean I get someone true understanding about
1153
01:16:06.279 --> 01:16:10.600
my essence. But I'm actually truthfully analyzing, even though I
1154
01:16:10.680 --> 01:16:14.119
might not always be happy what I'm finding. I might
1155
01:16:14.239 --> 01:16:18.760
really get my kicks from stuff which other people find evil,
1156
01:16:19.000 --> 01:16:22.119
which other people find find terrible. As long as you
1157
01:16:22.159 --> 01:16:25.560
don't harm a third person, then you know, acknowledge truthfully
1158
01:16:25.640 --> 01:16:28.680
acknowledge what you long for, you desire for, what your
1159
01:16:28.760 --> 01:16:32.359
drives are. And the third part is once you've realized,
1160
01:16:32.680 --> 01:16:36.960
then then maybe you still don't stick to what you realize.
1161
01:16:37.119 --> 01:16:39.800
And that's where the self control comes in, and we
1162
01:16:39.880 --> 01:16:43.239
need to strongly promote the capacity of self control. And
1163
01:16:43.279 --> 01:16:47.800
that's where also pharmaceutical devices could come in which increase
1164
01:16:47.880 --> 01:16:51.600
the likehood of actually sticking to the values and the
1165
01:16:51.680 --> 01:16:55.399
norms which you self subscribe, which we regard as appropriate.
1166
01:16:56.439 --> 01:17:00.279
And so that's why the virtue education could so with
1167
01:17:00.399 --> 01:17:04.159
these specific virtues is probably more relevant than anything else
1168
01:17:04.239 --> 01:17:07.000
for actually being able to be in a position to
1169
01:17:07.079 --> 01:17:10.199
make an autonomous decision, because the majority of you know
1170
01:17:10.399 --> 01:17:12.560
it is very easy, in particular in the world where
1171
01:17:12.600 --> 01:17:15.279
you grow up with all the social media, to basically
1172
01:17:15.359 --> 01:17:18.439
get get thoughts installed in your mind which have which
1173
01:17:18.479 --> 01:17:21.319
you will regret later on. And that's one of the fears.
1174
01:17:21.479 --> 01:17:23.520
But I would I would still you tell them, do
1175
01:17:24.079 --> 01:17:26.920
go ahead and live that, but I would try to promote,
1176
01:17:26.960 --> 01:17:29.880
you know, do think about it, do analyze yourself, what
1177
01:17:30.159 --> 01:17:33.159
really is, what is really more fundamental at your core,
1178
01:17:33.439 --> 01:17:35.600
and that's why I also stress the element of the
1179
01:17:35.600 --> 01:17:40.239
healthy liabray and being removed or the tres treansgender surgery.
1180
01:17:41.760 --> 01:17:44.640
Yes, thank you for your answer, and I do think
1181
01:17:44.680 --> 01:17:49.319
we agree in these regards on the importance of various
1182
01:17:49.560 --> 01:17:53.960
virtues in making that decision, and on the importance of
1183
01:17:54.000 --> 01:18:00.680
considering the longer term consequences and what is best at
1184
01:18:00.760 --> 01:18:04.439
least to the conception of oneself and one's own flourishing
1185
01:18:04.920 --> 01:18:08.399
that one would have, which is a longer term conception.
1186
01:18:08.520 --> 01:18:11.279
It's not just in the moment. And I'd like to
1187
01:18:11.319 --> 01:18:16.920
reinforce something that you said about essentially having a more
1188
01:18:17.039 --> 01:18:20.680
nuanced view than just short term hedonism. And I would
1189
01:18:20.680 --> 01:18:25.439
actually hope that most transhumanists, however they classify themselves, whether
1190
01:18:25.720 --> 01:18:30.479
classical transhumanists or just transhumanists without an adjective, wouldn't be
1191
01:18:30.600 --> 01:18:35.840
in favor of just seeking pleasure for the sake of pleasure.
1192
01:18:36.600 --> 01:18:41.520
I don't really see that much overlap between transhumanism and
1193
01:18:41.560 --> 01:18:47.840
the Silicon Valley fads like polyamory. Yes, there might be
1194
01:18:47.880 --> 01:18:51.479
some people here or there, but I generally see those
1195
01:18:51.560 --> 01:18:55.680
fads as just being unsustainable. And again, from the standpoint
1196
01:18:55.960 --> 01:19:02.439
of long term consideration, where does one want to be, say,
1197
01:19:02.479 --> 01:19:07.000
within the framework of a relationship many years into the future.
1198
01:19:07.359 --> 01:19:10.920
That just doesn't work, That just doesn't lead to anything
1199
01:19:11.520 --> 01:19:18.000
stable or fulfilling in retrospect. And hopefully a lot of
1200
01:19:18.000 --> 01:19:22.319
people recognize this, a lot of self identified transhumanists recognize this.
1201
01:19:22.439 --> 01:19:25.560
There may be just some bubbles in the Bay Area
1202
01:19:26.039 --> 01:19:29.600
where that's being practiced, but that's just perspective.
1203
01:19:29.600 --> 01:19:32.039
I so strongly agree with you. I mean, and and
1204
01:19:32.479 --> 01:19:34.800
sort of by fear actually from what I've seen so
1205
01:19:34.960 --> 01:19:38.319
in particular in the Bay Area bay Area trumps, we're
1206
01:19:38.319 --> 01:19:40.600
the cool guys here will looking at the edge and
1207
01:19:40.640 --> 01:19:43.399
the farantia hours is you know, we try out everything
1208
01:19:43.560 --> 01:19:45.760
and and the beyond the cob border is not like
1209
01:19:45.840 --> 01:19:48.800
all the rest. We travel like nomads and all the
1210
01:19:48.840 --> 01:19:51.840
different parts of the world, enjoy ourselves and employs our
1211
01:19:51.920 --> 01:19:56.199
sexual fulfillment in the different manners without thinking about the implications.
1212
01:19:56.479 --> 01:19:58.840
And that's that is a widely shit. In particular, if
1213
01:19:58.840 --> 01:20:01.520
you travel a lot of you lose your bases, if
1214
01:20:01.560 --> 01:20:04.119
you lose your roots. We need to understand the roots
1215
01:20:04.119 --> 01:20:06.680
are important, and you know, the roots without if you
1216
01:20:06.760 --> 01:20:10.199
cut off your roots, you wither and I'm not saying,
1217
01:20:10.239 --> 01:20:12.199
you know, we just need to stick to our roots,
1218
01:20:12.239 --> 01:20:15.319
because everything is contingent and can be can be altered.
1219
01:20:15.600 --> 01:20:19.319
But there's you know, unfortunately, there's there's been such a
1220
01:20:19.319 --> 01:20:23.920
tendency of always in particular with the particular progressive be
1221
01:20:24.159 --> 01:20:27.079
the hippies at the time, that many of the Bay
1222
01:20:27.199 --> 01:20:32.479
Area attack elite also in praising such an extremely naive
1223
01:20:32.600 --> 01:20:35.439
base heat in a spence which I find I'm you know,
1224
01:20:36.359 --> 01:20:38.319
they should live with it if that makes them happy,
1225
01:20:38.359 --> 01:20:41.279
But I personally doubt I wouldn't tell the stories and say,
1226
01:20:41.319 --> 01:20:44.239
look and there's there you know, we need to cherish
1227
01:20:44.239 --> 01:20:46.920
our roots, we need to take care of our evolutionary
1228
01:20:47.720 --> 01:20:50.439
of our evolutionary framing. And here is also there's an
1229
01:20:50.439 --> 01:20:53.359
asymmetry man and women be bigly when it comes to
1230
01:20:53.399 --> 01:20:56.039
the risk of reproduction. We need to cherish our health,
1231
01:20:56.439 --> 01:20:59.079
our safety, and that is you know, these are issues
1232
01:20:59.119 --> 01:21:02.680
with with that's you know, I'm really strongly critical of
1233
01:21:02.720 --> 01:21:06.359
the base hedonism because all of these issues undermine or
1234
01:21:06.600 --> 01:21:10.760
risk sort of that base. The base hedonism has a risk,
1235
01:21:11.039 --> 01:21:13.800
is a health risk. You you know, I've had you know,
1236
01:21:13.960 --> 01:21:18.359
people telling me coming from from the Bay Area, is
1237
01:21:18.359 --> 01:21:21.920
that like who whose whose partners basically told you didn't
1238
01:21:21.960 --> 01:21:24.359
tell them that they've got an STD, and they then
1239
01:21:24.399 --> 01:21:27.680
have consequences for the rest of their lives because you know,
1240
01:21:27.800 --> 01:21:31.000
you let yourself be engaged with people you don't know,
1241
01:21:31.399 --> 01:21:34.319
you don't know sufficiently well you think you might know.
1242
01:21:34.439 --> 01:21:36.840
That's why I sort of trust is such an essential
1243
01:21:36.880 --> 01:21:39.319
element we need to focus on. And I don't want
1244
01:21:39.359 --> 01:21:41.800
you know, I don't want to sound only conservative or
1245
01:21:41.800 --> 01:21:44.199
things I think, but these are challenge with Actually, if
1246
01:21:44.239 --> 01:21:47.159
you cherish health, if you cherish a long health span,
1247
01:21:47.560 --> 01:21:51.119
we need to take that into consideration. And we shouldn't think, oh,
1248
01:21:51.119 --> 01:21:53.800
look we are the we are the technological avant god,
1249
01:21:53.880 --> 01:21:56.079
and we break all the rules and we create our
1250
01:21:56.119 --> 01:21:59.039
own new rules, and we create our own contracts. And
1251
01:21:59.760 --> 01:22:03.399
you know, bubbles living together in polyamorous you know, relationships
1252
01:22:03.399 --> 01:22:06.119
for two months year, three months there, and that's you know,
1253
01:22:06.239 --> 01:22:10.439
I I've you know, in most cases, I've seen a
1254
01:22:10.439 --> 01:22:13.520
sort of people regret if they've done that before. And
1255
01:22:13.600 --> 01:22:17.279
so so this is what But without making the claim
1256
01:22:17.319 --> 01:22:21.520
even these insights, you know, not essentialist judgments, internally valid judgment,
1257
01:22:21.600 --> 01:22:24.479
but but they they they are really result of taking
1258
01:22:24.520 --> 01:22:29.680
our evolutionary heritage into consideration, then our by biological roots
1259
01:22:29.680 --> 01:22:33.399
into consideration. And that's why, that's why I'm extremely critical
1260
01:22:33.439 --> 01:22:38.279
of this hiddeness Bay Area tech which is so troubling
1261
01:22:38.279 --> 01:22:41.560
the world. In order to enjoy themselves, tech selfies posts
1262
01:22:41.560 --> 01:22:45.000
them and Instagram and show how cool and exclusive, what
1263
01:22:45.039 --> 01:22:49.119
a what a fun and lifestyle they have, and and
1264
01:22:48.920 --> 01:22:51.199
and I'm stressing, no, there's a lot to be gained
1265
01:22:51.239 --> 01:22:54.000
from a more you know, from a virtue based approach,
1266
01:22:54.039 --> 01:22:56.960
which is which which is a heritage. Awful lot of
1267
01:22:57.039 --> 01:22:59.920
European thinkers. That's you know, that's when I'm talking about
1268
01:23:00.039 --> 01:23:02.880
you're transhumanist, and I don't have Eurocentric approach. I'm not
1269
01:23:03.000 --> 01:23:05.880
Europe saved the world, but you know, in particular and
1270
01:23:06.039 --> 01:23:10.079
also at universities, but be it at universities with the
1271
01:23:10.119 --> 01:23:13.560
more left critical posthumanist stands as well as in the
1272
01:23:13.600 --> 01:23:18.560
tech libertarian tech hethenist world. They both of the understanding, look,
1273
01:23:19.840 --> 01:23:22.920
we move away from every seeing what has been there
1274
01:23:22.960 --> 01:23:26.840
before the Bay Area they moved to with the future
1275
01:23:27.239 --> 01:23:31.479
and the tech and the critical posthumanists basically negate everything
1276
01:23:31.560 --> 01:23:35.439
which has been traditionally affirmed in the in the Judeo
1277
01:23:35.680 --> 01:23:40.439
Christian tradition. But I think no. Look, and that's why
1278
01:23:40.439 --> 01:23:43.079
I call it, you're transhumanists, and there is actually you know,
1279
01:23:43.399 --> 01:23:46.720
the white man in Europe doesn't have to be the
1280
01:23:46.840 --> 01:23:50.520
enemy that the white man in Europe. The philosophers, the intellectual,
1281
01:23:50.600 --> 01:23:53.640
the poet, the musicians. You know, we've had a long
1282
01:23:53.680 --> 01:23:55.840
tradition going back to playto and I see a lot
1283
01:23:55.880 --> 01:23:58.319
of challenges in Plato, but there's a lot to be
1284
01:23:58.439 --> 01:24:03.560
gained from playto engage with Plato, Aristotle, Augustine, Thomas, Aquinas
1285
01:24:03.800 --> 01:24:06.680
Decart and can't and needs you just Spinosa. You know,
1286
01:24:06.720 --> 01:24:10.039
there's a lot of im relevance for engaging with that tradition.
1287
01:24:10.359 --> 01:24:12.359
We shouldn't, you know, And that's why I'm sort of
1288
01:24:12.399 --> 01:24:17.279
hesitant with, you know, identifying some classic transhumanists. Look, forget
1289
01:24:17.319 --> 01:24:20.880
your roots, move to Mars and forget about the past,
1290
01:24:20.920 --> 01:24:24.920
forget about virtues, just enjoy yourself and create something completely new.
1291
01:24:25.199 --> 01:24:27.960
And I said, no, and you don't. I don't think
1292
01:24:27.960 --> 01:24:30.479
you have to be from Europe to embrase eurotranshumans. If
1293
01:24:30.520 --> 01:24:33.560
you've cherished some of these insights which can be traced
1294
01:24:33.600 --> 01:24:37.239
to Spinosa or Anische or Freud, you know, then if
1295
01:24:37.279 --> 01:24:40.239
it's it's it's valuable to take these things into consideration
1296
01:24:40.399 --> 01:24:43.079
to take a step forward. Then this is elements of
1297
01:24:43.079 --> 01:24:46.760
a eurotranshumanist approach, without claiming all of these insights have
1298
01:24:46.840 --> 01:24:50.159
a universal validity. But I think the future needs the
1299
01:24:50.279 --> 01:24:53.640
past and we need to embrace I personally have my
1300
01:24:53.760 --> 01:24:57.039
roots in the European you know, cultural tradition, and I
1301
01:24:57.319 --> 01:24:59.159
don't want to get rid of that. I think it's
1302
01:24:59.279 --> 01:25:01.880
really important to engage with that. Even though I think
1303
01:25:01.920 --> 01:25:04.479
I want to change the world. I want to see
1304
01:25:04.880 --> 01:25:07.439
use the technologies. You know, live to one hundred and fifty.
1305
01:25:07.760 --> 01:25:10.399
You know that's healthily in two hundred fIF that's wonderful,
1306
01:25:10.479 --> 01:25:14.560
you know. But that doesn't mean I would give up
1307
01:25:14.760 --> 01:25:17.760
these roots. I take care of them. I gradually progress,
1308
01:25:18.199 --> 01:25:22.880
and it's not that suddenly that suddenly everything becomes you
1309
01:25:22.960 --> 01:25:26.800
need to cherish indigenous cultures in Argentina and study them
1310
01:25:27.399 --> 01:25:30.199
and all that becomes relevant, or you travel to Thailand
1311
01:25:30.279 --> 01:25:34.560
and do those things. But now I cherish my cultural past.
1312
01:25:34.600 --> 01:25:37.399
I investigate that, and on that basis, I want to
1313
01:25:37.439 --> 01:25:41.199
develop further. It's more, and I do cherish the certain verses.
1314
01:25:41.239 --> 01:25:45.359
It's not completely cutting off the roots, but taking a
1315
01:25:45.920 --> 01:25:49.840
you know it's not even more cautious, but being taking
1316
01:25:49.880 --> 01:25:52.680
care of my roots in order to develop further, because
1317
01:25:52.720 --> 01:25:54.720
I know that's part of who I am, and it's
1318
01:25:54.760 --> 01:25:58.039
important of who I am, and I think it actually
1319
01:25:58.159 --> 01:26:01.239
it can benefit enormously from from that tradition too.
1320
01:26:02.800 --> 01:26:05.880
Yes, thank you very much stuff On for that answer,
1321
01:26:05.920 --> 01:26:10.279
and I agree with you about the importance of virtues
1322
01:26:10.600 --> 01:26:16.000
in making the decisions about how one should act. And
1323
01:26:16.199 --> 01:26:19.079
it's interesting. We have a comment from our friend John H.
1324
01:26:19.199 --> 01:26:21.960
More Life Please. He says he would be okay with
1325
01:26:22.039 --> 01:26:24.600
hedonism if it were even a possible state of affairs.
1326
01:26:24.640 --> 01:26:27.920
He thinks it's a self limiting dynamic because of hedenic
1327
01:26:28.000 --> 01:26:32.079
set points and such. And people who just pursue short
1328
01:26:32.199 --> 01:26:36.399
term pleasure may disregard that because they may think, well,
1329
01:26:36.840 --> 01:26:39.319
I'll just have more pleasure and more pleasure and more pleasure.
1330
01:26:39.399 --> 01:26:45.159
Except their minds become acclimated to a given level of pleasure,
1331
01:26:45.439 --> 01:26:49.079
and so they need to raise that level in order
1332
01:26:49.159 --> 01:26:56.319
to get that let's say, subjective satisfaction once again, and
1333
01:26:56.399 --> 01:26:59.079
this is of course the root of many addictions, this
1334
01:26:59.159 --> 01:27:02.399
is the root of many any suboptimal behavior. So thank
1335
01:27:02.439 --> 01:27:06.760
you John for that comment. And we also have a
1336
01:27:07.039 --> 01:27:10.880
comment and question from our friend Alan Crowley. He says,
1337
01:27:10.880 --> 01:27:13.520
thank you for the excellent discussion and thank you Alan
1338
01:27:13.640 --> 01:27:17.479
for your kind support. What does legislation built upon this
1339
01:27:17.680 --> 01:27:23.159
reasoning look like? So we have, hopefully broadly among transhumanists,
1340
01:27:23.359 --> 01:27:28.359
recognition of the importance of autonomy morphological freedom. But at
1341
01:27:28.399 --> 01:27:33.399
the same time we also have this concept of virtues,
1342
01:27:34.039 --> 01:27:38.319
the concept of taking a longer term orientation, recognizing the
1343
01:27:38.520 --> 01:27:44.800
changes may happen. But also there are scientifically valid insights,
1344
01:27:44.840 --> 01:27:49.800
there are evolutionarily valid insights. So putting all of this together,
1345
01:27:50.520 --> 01:27:55.159
what would you say are some possibilities for legislation that's
1346
01:27:55.199 --> 01:28:00.119
not essentialist, that embodies all of these ideas.
1347
01:28:00.479 --> 01:28:03.399
All of these ideas, everything you mentioned, I've fully subscribed
1348
01:28:03.399 --> 01:28:06.880
to everything. All of that must play a role. There
1349
01:28:06.880 --> 01:28:12.319
are some significant cultural differences which I basically whenever I
1350
01:28:12.399 --> 01:28:16.039
teach an introductory ethics class, and I've like most of
1351
01:28:16.039 --> 01:28:18.840
my students are from from the United States, and I
1352
01:28:18.840 --> 01:28:23.720
do raise one specific question which shows is an enormous
1353
01:28:23.840 --> 01:28:27.680
cultural difference between people from the Anglo American world and
1354
01:28:27.760 --> 01:28:31.600
keep people from continental Europe. And that concerns the law,
1355
01:28:31.680 --> 01:28:35.920
the legal aspect. It's it's one specific case, and the
1356
01:28:35.960 --> 01:28:40.279
specific case has to do with shooting down a hijack plane.
1357
01:28:40.600 --> 01:28:44.640
So you know, we've got the case where there's a
1358
01:28:44.680 --> 01:28:48.119
plane but one hundred people people on board, and the
1359
01:28:48.159 --> 01:28:52.520
people was was the plane was hijacked, and it seems
1360
01:28:52.560 --> 01:28:55.760
to be the case that the plane flies directly onto
1361
01:28:55.800 --> 01:28:59.399
a nuclear power plant. And basically we know that the
1362
01:28:59.439 --> 01:29:02.279
new you know, once if it successfully crashes into the
1363
01:29:02.359 --> 01:29:06.279
nuclear power plant, you know, a million, ten million people
1364
01:29:06.319 --> 01:29:10.760
will be dead. The entire area will be devastated for
1365
01:29:10.920 --> 01:29:15.319
you know, many decades, if not longer. And so it is,
1366
01:29:15.359 --> 01:29:19.119
it is a very serious consequence. Luckily, you and this
1367
01:29:19.199 --> 01:29:21.720
is what you know, all my students, each one of you.
1368
01:29:21.720 --> 01:29:25.600
You're you're the president of the United States. Luckily you've
1369
01:29:25.600 --> 01:29:29.359
got a you know, military plane nearby, and you could
1370
01:29:29.399 --> 01:29:34.359
command basically the plane to shoot down the hijacked plane
1371
01:29:35.840 --> 01:29:39.760
because it clearly it seems to fly directly into into
1372
01:29:39.800 --> 01:29:43.199
a nuclear power plant. Would you do so? Should you
1373
01:29:43.239 --> 01:29:45.920
do so? Is it a moral obligation to do so?
1374
01:29:46.439 --> 01:29:48.760
What is a response I'm getting? What do you think?
1375
01:29:51.000 --> 01:29:56.560
Very interesting questions? So raise your hand if you would
1376
01:29:56.600 --> 01:30:03.760
absolutely should shoot down the plane in the circumstances anyone
1377
01:30:04.159 --> 01:30:09.279
art Tramone raised his hand. Okay, raise your hand if
1378
01:30:09.319 --> 01:30:14.199
you would never shoot down a plane under these circumstances
1379
01:30:14.239 --> 01:30:20.600
that stuff un described. Interesting, raise your hand if you
1380
01:30:20.760 --> 01:30:27.159
would sometimes shoot down the plane depending on other situations,
1381
01:30:27.199 --> 01:30:32.439
depending on some context that has been left out. Anyone
1382
01:30:33.479 --> 01:30:37.439
Probably no, okay, so interesting, So are Tramone.
1383
01:30:37.479 --> 01:30:41.079
Most people there's a tendency not to shooting down the plane. Actually,
1384
01:30:41.119 --> 01:30:46.840
in my class, it's usually, you know, if they're all
1385
01:30:46.840 --> 01:30:50.359
from the United it's most people. There's hardly anyone who
1386
01:30:50.359 --> 01:30:53.119
wouldn't shoot down the plane because basically, the consequences are
1387
01:30:53.159 --> 01:30:56.000
such that you have either you know, ten million people,
1388
01:30:56.039 --> 01:30:58.520
you know, a million people buy in the region. The
1389
01:30:58.600 --> 01:31:01.319
region will be devastated. It's just like a hundred people,
1390
01:31:01.640 --> 01:31:04.760
a hundred people being dead the one hundred people on
1391
01:31:04.800 --> 01:31:07.760
the on the plane. And it's very highly, very likely
1392
01:31:07.800 --> 01:31:10.079
actually the people on the plane will be dead anyway,
1393
01:31:10.359 --> 01:31:12.880
even if they don't miss don't hit the target or
1394
01:31:12.920 --> 01:31:15.199
the nuclear power plant, even if they miss it, they
1395
01:31:15.239 --> 01:31:18.000
would it's very likely that they would be dead. Actually,
1396
01:31:18.000 --> 01:31:20.640
in one case, this is this has not been the case.
1397
01:31:20.640 --> 01:31:22.800
There was the case of the shoe bomber where they
1398
01:31:22.800 --> 01:31:25.840
actually the passengers in the plane actually control the control
1399
01:31:25.880 --> 01:31:28.399
of the plane. And no one died in the end anyway.
1400
01:31:28.760 --> 01:31:31.840
So and and the interesting thing if I asked this
1401
01:31:32.199 --> 01:31:35.039
very same question in a class in in in the
1402
01:31:35.199 --> 01:31:39.359
you know where I've got continental European students, the majority
1403
01:31:39.560 --> 01:31:43.600
most people would not shoot down the hijacked plane in
1404
01:31:43.640 --> 01:31:46.159
particularly German speaking country, but also in the rest of
1405
01:31:46.239 --> 01:31:50.239
continental Europe. And that is very interesting. The response is
1406
01:31:50.279 --> 01:31:53.439
completely different. And and this has to do with the
1407
01:31:53.560 --> 01:31:57.840
legal situation in these in these two cultural fears in
1408
01:31:57.840 --> 01:32:00.680
in the Anglo American world, there is you to militarian
1409
01:32:00.720 --> 01:32:04.840
thinking is the dominant one. And utilitarian thinking basically goloes.
1410
01:32:04.880 --> 01:32:07.399
You look at the consequences in the one case, you've
1411
01:32:07.399 --> 01:32:09.800
got one hundred people, like very likely one hundred people
1412
01:32:09.800 --> 01:32:15.279
that very slow probability, no one's that and and and
1413
01:32:15.279 --> 01:32:18.039
and if it hits the target, then there will be
1414
01:32:18.079 --> 01:32:20.600
a million people that and you want to avoid that
1415
01:32:20.680 --> 01:32:23.479
the million people or ten million people will die. So
1416
01:32:23.920 --> 01:32:26.520
you know, it's so for the most people, that's the
1417
01:32:26.600 --> 01:32:29.000
right thing to do. That's as good as it gets.
1418
01:32:29.079 --> 01:32:31.760
That's what where you would shoot down the plane. That
1419
01:32:31.800 --> 01:32:35.920
that's utilitarian thinking in in and and the and the
1420
01:32:36.079 --> 01:32:38.760
and the Federal Court in the United States has confirmed
1421
01:32:38.800 --> 01:32:41.159
that this is the right way to respond. That's a
1422
01:32:41.239 --> 01:32:45.079
legally literitive way to respond to that issue. The same
1423
01:32:45.159 --> 01:32:48.039
issue has been addressed by the highest court in Germany
1424
01:32:48.479 --> 01:32:51.399
and the highest court you know to to to too
1425
01:32:51.479 --> 01:32:53.920
obvious as a consequence of things which happened twenty five
1426
01:32:54.000 --> 01:32:56.920
years ago. So and and the highest court in Germany said,
1427
01:32:57.720 --> 01:33:00.439
if the Chancellor made such a decision, that would be
1428
01:33:00.479 --> 01:33:03.920
a criminal offense. The person could be put into jail.
1429
01:33:04.439 --> 01:33:07.960
That is not a legitimate decision which the tangella could make.
1430
01:33:08.399 --> 01:33:13.079
Why not, because here that is a deontological content way
1431
01:33:13.079 --> 01:33:16.600
of thinking. You you you you sacrifice the life of
1432
01:33:16.720 --> 01:33:20.920
one person whose value is infinite, possesses human dignity for
1433
01:33:21.039 --> 01:33:24.560
the for the value of a million, ten million people,
1434
01:33:25.079 --> 01:33:28.880
and each person has the value of who's each the
1435
01:33:28.960 --> 01:33:32.039
value of any person is infinite. Based on that contient
1436
01:33:32.079 --> 01:33:34.399
type of reasoning, which is dominant in the in the
1437
01:33:34.439 --> 01:33:38.680
Countriental European world, and so based on it the ontological
1438
01:33:38.800 --> 01:33:42.319
reason actually it becomes illegal also in these cultural context
1439
01:33:42.880 --> 01:33:47.800
and and and and and and that is very interesting.
1440
01:33:47.880 --> 01:33:50.760
You wouldn't say, sort of the legal structures in continental
1441
01:33:50.840 --> 01:33:54.399
Europe or in the United States. In both situations, you know,
1442
01:33:55.359 --> 01:33:57.720
it's not the case that the one is totally immoral
1443
01:33:58.119 --> 01:34:00.760
and the other, or the totally moral and the other isn't.
1444
01:34:00.800 --> 01:34:04.159
Now there are two different ways of structuring liberal democracies.
1445
01:34:04.399 --> 01:34:08.319
We cherish autonomy, we cherish something, you know, scientific insights.
1446
01:34:08.359 --> 01:34:11.600
We want to try to realize something important. But the
1447
01:34:11.800 --> 01:34:16.560
underlying structure is the logic of reasoning is different. And
1448
01:34:16.600 --> 01:34:18.760
that has to do and the people who've been grown
1449
01:34:18.840 --> 01:34:21.199
up in the United States and the Anglo American world
1450
01:34:21.399 --> 01:34:23.640
basically have such a framing that they have at the
1451
01:34:23.760 --> 01:34:26.880
tendency to looking at the overall outcome. And the people
1452
01:34:26.880 --> 01:34:29.359
who've grown up who've went to school in the in
1453
01:34:29.399 --> 01:34:32.760
the continental European world, they've got a completely different framing.
1454
01:34:33.039 --> 01:34:35.079
And that also has to do with the legal framing
1455
01:34:35.119 --> 01:34:40.960
in these various various areas. The legal framing in the
1456
01:34:41.039 --> 01:34:43.079
United States, you've got the case law. You look at
1457
01:34:43.119 --> 01:34:47.560
one specific case and then you draw inferences similarities to
1458
01:34:47.640 --> 01:34:50.960
current cases, and that's where you make in order to
1459
01:34:50.960 --> 01:34:55.239
come to conclusion. And in Germany, for example, we've got
1460
01:34:55.239 --> 01:34:57.800
a different line of reason. We've got a deductive reasoning.
1461
01:34:57.960 --> 01:35:01.960
We've got general laws and then we subsume the individual
1462
01:35:02.039 --> 01:35:05.800
case under general laws, and that is so the one
1463
01:35:05.840 --> 01:35:08.479
is inductive, the other one is deductive. So we have
1464
01:35:08.640 --> 01:35:12.680
two completely different ways of thinking about these specific issues.
1465
01:35:13.119 --> 01:35:17.319
And you know, and that's when the question of legal
1466
01:35:17.359 --> 01:35:19.960
structures comes up. And I say, now, look, I mean
1467
01:35:20.000 --> 01:35:23.199
we cannot in continental Europe. We don't want to adapt
1468
01:35:23.199 --> 01:35:25.800
the utilitarian framing in the same way as you in
1469
01:35:25.840 --> 01:35:30.319
the United States want to adapt continental deontological framing. It
1470
01:35:30.359 --> 01:35:32.920
doesn't make sense. We've got a long type of heritage,
1471
01:35:33.000 --> 01:35:35.560
We've got our roots, and we've grown up in these
1472
01:35:35.760 --> 01:35:38.920
circumstances and we need to take them into consideration. And
1473
01:35:38.960 --> 01:35:42.039
that is very important to take you know, these situational
1474
01:35:42.119 --> 01:35:45.279
factors into consideration. And that is to do also with
1475
01:35:45.600 --> 01:35:48.399
not only and this is so the legal fructures apply
1476
01:35:48.680 --> 01:35:52.079
very general way of thinking about different issues. That's why
1477
01:35:52.119 --> 01:35:56.560
empiricism is very important in the American world, and rationalism
1478
01:35:56.600 --> 01:35:59.720
has been very important in the continental European world. It
1479
01:35:59.800 --> 01:36:03.199
is a completely different way of thinking. And the Chinese
1480
01:36:03.359 --> 01:36:06.239
again have a completely have an alternative way of thinking.
1481
01:36:06.520 --> 01:36:09.159
So there was you know, in the there's a Chinese
1482
01:36:09.159 --> 01:36:11.920
social credit system, and in China we were the social
1483
01:36:11.920 --> 01:36:14.039
credit system. There was a young boy who wanted to
1484
01:36:14.039 --> 01:36:17.600
go to university, but he and he passed all the exams,
1485
01:36:17.760 --> 01:36:20.720
but he was not allowed to enter university. Why was
1486
01:36:20.760 --> 01:36:24.000
he not allowed to enter university because his dad didn't
1487
01:36:24.000 --> 01:36:27.520
pay back a credit And you know because the dad
1488
01:36:28.039 --> 01:36:32.000
someone's close to you related. If your friends a criminals
1489
01:36:32.000 --> 01:36:34.760
of your you know that has a consequence. You are
1490
01:36:34.800 --> 01:36:39.560
in part embedded in relational structures. It's a relational ethics.
1491
01:36:39.840 --> 01:36:43.000
You're part of a relational structures. It doesn't matter whether
1492
01:36:43.119 --> 01:36:47.239
you've done something, whether you've committed the crime, whether you
1493
01:36:47.399 --> 01:36:50.399
didn't pay back your credit, your pet, your dad didn't
1494
01:36:50.399 --> 01:36:53.680
do so, and that has consequences on your social credit standing.
1495
01:36:54.039 --> 01:36:56.119
And this is if you want to deal with China,
1496
01:36:56.399 --> 01:36:59.720
then you need to understand the relational structures in the
1497
01:37:00.039 --> 01:37:04.439
particularly into the you know, Eastern Asian religious communities which
1498
01:37:04.560 --> 01:37:09.239
still have an impact in our contemporary tech surveillance, digital
1499
01:37:09.319 --> 01:37:12.159
structures as they are dominant in China. We have a
1500
01:37:12.439 --> 01:37:17.840
it's it's you receive an identity card, you look at it,
1501
01:37:18.279 --> 01:37:20.359
then you need to acknowledge if you're sort of in
1502
01:37:20.960 --> 01:37:23.840
Eastern Asia, you look at it. You acknowledge the importance
1503
01:37:23.880 --> 01:37:26.199
of the other person. Your acknowledge whether it's usual is
1504
01:37:26.239 --> 01:37:29.960
more important, less important, and that concerns how you interact
1505
01:37:29.960 --> 01:37:33.640
with the other person. And so it is this relational structures,
1506
01:37:33.680 --> 01:37:37.640
relational ethics is simply their way of doing We've got
1507
01:37:37.640 --> 01:37:41.119
it the ontological way. Anglo American structures have a have
1508
01:37:40.960 --> 01:37:43.520
a have a more utilitarian way of dealing with issues.
1509
01:37:43.760 --> 01:37:45.720
Is the one thing better than the other? Is there
1510
01:37:45.760 --> 01:37:48.720
an absolute criteria? No, I don't know. Any I don't
1511
01:37:49.039 --> 01:37:51.960
I wouldn't say so that is non essentialism. We've got
1512
01:37:52.000 --> 01:37:55.399
simply different ways of dealing with the specific issues, and
1513
01:37:55.479 --> 01:37:58.479
that just must have consequences for how we structure the
1514
01:37:58.520 --> 01:38:01.199
issues right now, for how we deal with the issues
1515
01:38:01.279 --> 01:38:05.359
right now. And that can even refer to some cultural
1516
01:38:05.359 --> 01:38:08.279
events which have taken place in the various countries. So
1517
01:38:09.880 --> 01:38:13.960
for example, I mean there are issues like male male
1518
01:38:14.079 --> 01:38:18.880
circumcision culturally widely practiced. You know, in the end, if
1519
01:38:18.880 --> 01:38:21.199
you think about it, if you think about it, it
1520
01:38:21.319 --> 01:38:24.279
is it is a direct term being done to another
1521
01:38:25.640 --> 01:38:28.600
being done to another person. And but it's a strong
1522
01:38:28.640 --> 01:38:32.199
part of the Jewish culture and the Muslim culture. It
1523
01:38:33.720 --> 01:38:36.520
and and so there were there were described but in principle,
1524
01:38:36.520 --> 01:38:38.600
if you think about it, if you apply in ethics
1525
01:38:38.600 --> 01:38:44.079
of autonomy, then really, I mean, it doesn't have any
1526
01:38:44.439 --> 01:38:49.640
There is no certain medical advantages is associated with male circumcision.
1527
01:38:50.079 --> 01:38:53.520
There's some mean they are not sufficiently well documented the
1528
01:38:53.560 --> 01:38:58.600
medical evidence to actually make it obligatory. It's undecided at
1529
01:38:58.680 --> 01:39:00.920
least the case. And that's but if you if you
1530
01:39:00.960 --> 01:39:03.199
want to do it for medical reasons, that's a completely
1531
01:39:03.239 --> 01:39:05.039
different reason than if you want to do it for
1532
01:39:05.159 --> 01:39:09.520
religious reasons. And then so actually, if you take ethics
1533
01:39:09.520 --> 01:39:13.239
of autonomy into consideration, then actually male circumcision is a
1534
01:39:13.319 --> 01:39:17.239
highly problematic procedure. You really need to think about whether
1535
01:39:17.279 --> 01:39:20.760
that is not unnecessarily bodily harmed being done to another person.
1536
01:39:21.199 --> 01:39:24.000
And that's why people in Iceland or in Denmark, they've
1537
01:39:24.039 --> 01:39:28.319
been thinking about making rendering it illegal. On the other hand,
1538
01:39:28.560 --> 01:39:31.399
if you because it has consequent it undermindes Muslim and
1539
01:39:31.479 --> 01:39:36.159
Jewish practices, religious practices, and if you, you know, considered
1540
01:39:36.239 --> 01:39:38.520
making it illegal in a country like Germany with the
1541
01:39:38.520 --> 01:39:41.560
holocau history of the Holocaust, then you know, you simply
1542
01:39:41.600 --> 01:39:44.119
can't do it, you know, because that is not the
1543
01:39:44.199 --> 01:39:46.800
appropriate way to dealing with such an issue in a
1544
01:39:46.840 --> 01:39:51.239
country with which in which the third price is so
1545
01:39:51.319 --> 01:39:54.159
called thood writer occurred. And that's why we need to
1546
01:39:54.439 --> 01:39:57.720
you know, ethical questions, legal questions, you know, they need
1547
01:39:57.760 --> 01:40:01.840
to take underlying structures into considerab do we think relationally
1548
01:40:02.039 --> 01:40:05.520
utilitarian manner? Do you think in ubuntu manner? Or do
1549
01:40:05.840 --> 01:40:08.880
we think in an ontological manner? And it also needs
1550
01:40:08.920 --> 01:40:12.840
to take our cultural roots into consideration. Maybe we should
1551
01:40:12.960 --> 01:40:15.960
move into the direction that we should try to avoid
1552
01:40:16.000 --> 01:40:18.600
the direct time being done another person. But you know,
1553
01:40:18.720 --> 01:40:21.960
so far, you know, and what happened with the Holocaust
1554
01:40:22.000 --> 01:40:25.880
insert right, is so closely related to us. That's why
1555
01:40:25.920 --> 01:40:28.640
you know, one shouldn't make such a suggestion in a
1556
01:40:28.680 --> 01:40:32.359
country like Germany basically, And so that's why i'm i'm
1557
01:40:32.600 --> 01:40:36.279
that's also essentialism in practice. I'm very hesitant to making
1558
01:40:36.600 --> 01:40:40.880
you know, general essential, universally valid statements concerning the law,
1559
01:40:41.199 --> 01:40:44.479
but you know, concerning legal ways, moral ways of dealing
1560
01:40:44.479 --> 01:40:47.880
with specific issues. I'm telling a story. You know, what works,
1561
01:40:48.039 --> 01:40:52.279
what might work in specific circumstances. I do uphold something
1562
01:40:52.479 --> 01:40:55.239
I currently uphold something, you know, like autonomy. You know,
1563
01:40:55.319 --> 01:41:00.880
that's wonderful and mohological freedom. That's great, but even these
1564
01:41:00.920 --> 01:41:03.680
issues are contingent. In the end, if we you know,
1565
01:41:03.840 --> 01:41:05.600
let's say, in two hundred years time or in one
1566
01:41:05.680 --> 01:41:08.920
hundred years time, we've got like an we've got a
1567
01:41:09.000 --> 01:41:14.079
you know, very you know, sufficiently well developed AI which
1568
01:41:14.079 --> 01:41:16.880
could make better political decisions, I might have to rethink
1569
01:41:16.920 --> 01:41:20.239
by positions. Maybe then we need to differ, and maybe
1570
01:41:20.239 --> 01:41:22.800
that's a better decision. So far, I don't see it yet,
1571
01:41:23.479 --> 01:41:26.800
but you know, that's what I mean also by non essentialism.
1572
01:41:27.000 --> 01:41:29.520
And so when it comes to legal terms, do take
1573
01:41:29.560 --> 01:41:32.199
our heritage or cultural background into consideration.
1574
01:41:33.279 --> 01:41:36.920
Yes, thank you very much, Stefan. And that's a fascinating
1575
01:41:36.960 --> 01:41:41.880
overview of the cultural differences and how certain questions, including
1576
01:41:41.880 --> 01:41:48.119
how certain hypothetical situations are approached. And shortly I'll be
1577
01:41:48.119 --> 01:41:51.560
interested in hearing our Tramones perspective. But my perspective on
1578
01:41:52.000 --> 01:41:57.479
shooting down the plane, since I have some strong European
1579
01:41:57.560 --> 01:41:59.439
roots that I spent most of my life in the
1580
01:41:59.520 --> 01:42:05.680
United States States, would be nuanced. So as a first principle,
1581
01:42:05.880 --> 01:42:09.199
I would try to avoid shooting down the plane through
1582
01:42:09.479 --> 01:42:13.920
any means possible, including trying to get the plane to
1583
01:42:14.039 --> 01:42:18.880
somehow land hopefully with minimal harm to the passengers, maybe
1584
01:42:19.520 --> 01:42:24.199
bring it down using some assistance, trying to get the
1585
01:42:24.239 --> 01:42:28.279
people to parachute from the plane, maybe getting them some
1586
01:42:28.319 --> 01:42:32.439
sort of support. But actually, if it came to my
1587
01:42:32.640 --> 01:42:37.199
life personally being endangered by that nuclear power plant explosion,
1588
01:42:37.479 --> 01:42:40.399
and I didn't have any other choice, I would shoot
1589
01:42:40.439 --> 01:42:43.680
down the plane. But it would be a very different
1590
01:42:43.720 --> 01:42:46.600
situation if I were up in the air in another
1591
01:42:46.720 --> 01:42:50.560
aircraft and I could escape. And let's say I didn't
1592
01:42:50.560 --> 01:42:53.560
know the ten million people, so none of my loved
1593
01:42:53.640 --> 01:42:58.359
ones or people I had any specific reason to be
1594
01:42:59.079 --> 01:43:03.079
especially concerned about we're on the ground. If it were
1595
01:43:03.119 --> 01:43:05.079
just an abstract matter of one hundred people on the
1596
01:43:05.079 --> 01:43:07.359
plane versus ten million on the ground, but I don't
1597
01:43:07.399 --> 01:43:12.479
know any of them, I would not be morally comfortable
1598
01:43:12.760 --> 01:43:15.960
with sacrificing the hundred people for the ten million, And
1599
01:43:16.000 --> 01:43:20.920
the reason for that would be I would then be
1600
01:43:21.119 --> 01:43:25.560
actively responsible for the deaths of the one hundred people, Whereas,
1601
01:43:26.520 --> 01:43:32.399
if again, all of these people are just humans to me,
1602
01:43:32.640 --> 01:43:35.880
I don't have any special relationship to them. If ten
1603
01:43:35.960 --> 01:43:39.960
million people died of some other external cause, of course
1604
01:43:40.000 --> 01:43:43.720
I would lament that. I would think that's terribly tragic.
1605
01:43:44.279 --> 01:43:48.279
But I was not an agent in their deaths Now,
1606
01:43:48.359 --> 01:43:50.640
if it's again self defense, if it's defending me, if
1607
01:43:50.680 --> 01:43:54.840
it's defending my family, my friends, I would take that step,
1608
01:43:54.960 --> 01:43:58.279
and I would take responsibility for the consequences, because it's
1609
01:43:58.319 --> 01:44:01.039
better to accept whatever consequence there is than to be dead.
1610
01:44:01.479 --> 01:44:05.520
But if it's just me being some sort of abstract
1611
01:44:05.680 --> 01:44:08.359
judge of who gets to live and who gets to die,
1612
01:44:08.840 --> 01:44:11.079
I'm not going to put myself in that situation. So
1613
01:44:11.119 --> 01:44:11.840
that's my view.
1614
01:44:12.960 --> 01:44:18.399
It's rather nuanced, wonderful sort of This is exactly also
1615
01:44:18.680 --> 01:44:22.680
one of the fundamental difference between Deontalo contient thinking and
1616
01:44:22.840 --> 01:44:27.439
utilitarian So in the utilitarian manner, it doesn't matter whether
1617
01:44:27.479 --> 01:44:30.560
you do or you let it occur. What matters is
1618
01:44:30.560 --> 01:44:33.920
the outcome, and the outcome ten million people's lives saved
1619
01:44:34.039 --> 01:44:38.239
is better than a hundred people's lives saved, and so
1620
01:44:38.359 --> 01:44:41.760
it doesn't The distinction between doing and letting occur is
1621
01:44:41.840 --> 01:44:45.600
morally irrelevant. But for you, it is relevant, and that
1622
01:44:45.720 --> 01:44:48.600
is that is something for the kantient. The contients do
1623
01:44:48.720 --> 01:44:53.000
make that distinction. No, in one case, it was you
1624
01:44:53.319 --> 01:44:56.520
who directly killed an innocent person and you need to
1625
01:44:56.520 --> 01:44:58.399
see the one hundred people on board of the plane.
1626
01:44:58.399 --> 01:45:02.760
They're innocent people and you a director responsible for killing them. Basically,
1627
01:45:03.119 --> 01:45:06.319
you know, if if were to happen, you know, like
1628
01:45:06.399 --> 01:45:09.039
in the Shoe bomber case, they might get there might
1629
01:45:09.119 --> 01:45:11.359
even be a slight possibility of them getting control of
1630
01:45:11.439 --> 01:45:14.600
the plane and they wouldn't have to die. So and
1631
01:45:14.600 --> 01:45:16.720
and and the content way of phrasing, as long as
1632
01:45:16.760 --> 01:45:19.520
you know directly responsiblity, you let it to occur you
1633
01:45:19.600 --> 01:45:21.079
and not morally to plan for it.
1634
01:45:22.760 --> 01:45:28.000
Yes, thank you Stefan and art Ramon. What would your
1635
01:45:28.640 --> 01:45:31.199
justification be because you raised your hands saying you would
1636
01:45:31.199 --> 01:45:33.279
shoot down the plane?
1637
01:45:34.319 --> 01:45:36.520
Oh yeah, it's like I put it in a chat,
1638
01:45:36.640 --> 01:45:40.119
you know, Spock, the needs of the mini outweigh than
1639
01:45:40.199 --> 01:45:44.119
the needs of the few. That just seems logical to me.
1640
01:45:44.279 --> 01:45:48.399
We've got it in in the culture. Haven't European seen
1641
01:45:48.520 --> 01:45:49.119
Star Trek?
1642
01:45:50.560 --> 01:45:50.760
Yeah?
1643
01:45:51.479 --> 01:45:55.960
I disagree with Spock there, but I am an ethical individualist,
1644
01:45:56.279 --> 01:46:00.000
so Spock has a more collectivest ethics. Now, I like Mistress,
1645
01:46:00.399 --> 01:46:05.359
no offense meant to Spock, but I do think it
1646
01:46:05.439 --> 01:46:12.760
is not morally permissible to intercompare the value of individual lives,
1647
01:46:13.000 --> 01:46:16.399
because if we think death is wrong, as I do,
1648
01:46:17.119 --> 01:46:24.359
then each person is essentially a distinct moral universe unto him,
1649
01:46:24.479 --> 01:46:28.600
her or itself, and the death of one person is
1650
01:46:28.760 --> 01:46:32.840
like an entire universe being extinguished. And they're different universes.
1651
01:46:32.920 --> 01:46:35.760
So there's no way to say one person is twelve
1652
01:46:35.840 --> 01:46:40.079
times better than another or point five times better than another.
1653
01:46:40.159 --> 01:46:45.399
There's no singular continuum of betterness along which to compare.
1654
01:46:45.920 --> 01:46:50.600
And so to me, it's not permissible to just decide
1655
01:46:50.600 --> 01:46:53.800
to take anyone's life. Now Again, if somebody were threatening
1656
01:46:53.840 --> 01:46:57.760
my life, or if someone were attacking someone, or even
1657
01:46:57.800 --> 01:47:04.279
inadvertently an unfortunate collateral victim of some action that I
1658
01:47:04.359 --> 01:47:07.960
have to take to protect my life. Like if there's
1659
01:47:08.000 --> 01:47:12.039
somebody with a grenade launcher in a nearby building and
1660
01:47:12.119 --> 01:47:15.479
I also have a grenade launcher, and I know he's
1661
01:47:15.520 --> 01:47:18.920
going to launch a rocket at me, would I fire
1662
01:47:19.000 --> 01:47:22.840
my grenade launcher first, knowing it would blow up the building. Yes,
1663
01:47:22.920 --> 01:47:25.760
I would, because it would be to protect me, or
1664
01:47:25.800 --> 01:47:30.920
maybe to protect people I'm responsible morally accountable for. But
1665
01:47:31.000 --> 01:47:34.800
I'm not going to say that one hundred of some
1666
01:47:35.039 --> 01:47:39.560
people can be sacrificed for any number of other people.
1667
01:47:40.079 --> 01:47:43.760
Let's use that same scenario, and let's say this plane,
1668
01:47:43.800 --> 01:47:46.119
you're the chancellor making the decision to shoot it down
1669
01:47:46.199 --> 01:47:48.079
or not, but that plane is headed towards you.
1670
01:47:50.520 --> 01:47:54.880
In that case, right right, it changes all of a sudden.
1671
01:47:54.920 --> 01:47:57.600
Oh you know, now you make a different decision because
1672
01:47:57.760 --> 01:47:59.520
it's going to affect you directly.
1673
01:48:00.079 --> 01:48:04.039
It's self defense in that case. So it's a question
1674
01:48:04.119 --> 01:48:07.840
of what do I have the responsibility to defend. And
1675
01:48:07.880 --> 01:48:10.680
again that's why I raised my hand and saying sometimes
1676
01:48:11.159 --> 01:48:13.560
I would shoot down the plane first, I would try
1677
01:48:13.600 --> 01:48:17.720
every other possible way to bring it down without harm.
1678
01:48:18.239 --> 01:48:24.800
And also it's a difference do I have a direct
1679
01:48:25.000 --> 01:48:29.600
moral responsibility to protect certain people on the ground if
1680
01:48:29.640 --> 01:48:33.960
I'm just some person floating up there making the decision.
1681
01:48:34.319 --> 01:48:34.880
But I'm not.
1682
01:48:35.920 --> 01:48:38.680
I'm not the chancellor, I don't have family there. I
1683
01:48:38.720 --> 01:48:41.960
don't have a special tie to those people. I am
1684
01:48:42.039 --> 01:48:44.800
not going to shoot down the plane. But if I
1685
01:48:44.840 --> 01:48:47.760
have a special tie, like if I'm told you are
1686
01:48:47.880 --> 01:48:52.399
the leader of this nation, you have the responsibility to
1687
01:48:52.439 --> 01:48:55.439
protect the ten million people on the ground and the
1688
01:48:55.560 --> 01:49:00.399
hundred well, we don't know who they are, but I
1689
01:49:00.479 --> 01:49:03.279
might make that decision, but I would have to be
1690
01:49:03.399 --> 01:49:06.680
in that position where I'm responsible for these other people,
1691
01:49:06.760 --> 01:49:10.319
where it is up to me what happens to them.
1692
01:49:10.359 --> 01:49:13.880
Either way, if I'm just me floating up there in
1693
01:49:13.920 --> 01:49:17.239
the air, then I don't have that special responsibility. So
1694
01:49:17.279 --> 01:49:20.319
again a nuanced position, But I get your point regarding.
1695
01:49:19.880 --> 01:49:24.680
The chancellor and in Germany sort of. The additional point
1696
01:49:24.720 --> 01:49:29.520
which comes up is basically, well, what is the value
1697
01:49:30.439 --> 01:49:33.840
do we attribute a specific value to each human being?
1698
01:49:34.239 --> 01:49:37.880
If we make this statement, well, saving a million people
1699
01:49:38.159 --> 01:49:43.640
is better then saving one hundred people, that it means,
1700
01:49:43.840 --> 01:49:47.359
then it means we do attribute we start attributing value.
1701
01:49:47.399 --> 01:49:53.039
Also two human beings and the kantient framing, which is
1702
01:49:53.159 --> 01:49:57.079
very in a way as religious crowning, and it goes
1703
01:49:57.079 --> 01:50:01.600
along with the understanding, well, there's value is something we
1704
01:50:01.800 --> 01:50:06.279
tribute to things, to objects. We buy a pet, whether
1705
01:50:06.319 --> 01:50:08.680
that's a good framing or not. But that's legally valid
1706
01:50:08.720 --> 01:50:11.119
all over the world besides in one country. But we
1707
01:50:11.319 --> 01:50:15.319
buy a pet. That's why we attribute a limited value
1708
01:50:15.399 --> 01:50:19.359
to a dog, to a cat. But we don't We
1709
01:50:19.960 --> 01:50:22.760
shouldn't have the right to buy a human being because
1710
01:50:22.760 --> 01:50:27.439
a human has dignity, has infinite value, and infinite value
1711
01:50:27.520 --> 01:50:32.079
means if you make a calculation, the value of one
1712
01:50:32.159 --> 01:50:37.359
person is infinite. You couldn't say, concerning value, one hundred
1713
01:50:37.359 --> 01:50:41.000
people have less value than a million people. Even one
1714
01:50:41.039 --> 01:50:43.760
person has doesn't have less value than a million people.
1715
01:50:43.800 --> 01:50:46.359
If you start with a premise you know that one
1716
01:50:46.399 --> 01:50:50.720
person has infinite value. And this is a completely different
1717
01:50:50.760 --> 01:50:55.439
phrasing about talking about talking about human beings and the
1718
01:50:55.560 --> 01:50:58.680
value which goes along with it. And that's dominant, and
1719
01:50:59.000 --> 01:51:03.399
that's even a strong part of the constituting legal constitutions
1720
01:51:03.439 --> 01:51:09.399
in continental European countries. Whereas whereas in the utilitarian framing,
1721
01:51:09.520 --> 01:51:12.239
we there's a higher chance that we attribute, you know,
1722
01:51:12.359 --> 01:51:15.680
humans simply have a limited value. That we are on
1723
01:51:15.720 --> 01:51:18.680
a scale on a limited value. They have more value,
1724
01:51:18.800 --> 01:51:21.840
you know, than kids and dogs, but there's in the end,
1725
01:51:21.960 --> 01:51:25.520
it's still a limited value. And that's a very interesting
1726
01:51:25.560 --> 01:51:29.600
insight which has an enormous amount of implications concerning actual
1727
01:51:29.680 --> 01:51:30.960
decision makings.
1728
01:51:31.560 --> 01:51:35.760
Yes, indeed, and of course, the moment one accepts the
1729
01:51:35.880 --> 01:51:39.079
view that humans have a limited value, there could be
1730
01:51:39.239 --> 01:51:43.479
some other implications we wouldn't want with that, like social
1731
01:51:43.600 --> 01:51:50.439
policies which might intentionally curtail somebody's well being or even
1732
01:51:50.479 --> 01:51:54.840
the length of a person's life for an ostensible greater good.
1733
01:51:55.399 --> 01:51:59.399
And I do not think that that kind of moral
1734
01:51:59.439 --> 01:52:06.039
arithmetic is tenable in the greater scheme of things, so
1735
01:52:06.119 --> 01:52:08.600
to speak. I think that can lead to some very
1736
01:52:08.720 --> 01:52:10.800
dangerous consequences.
1737
01:52:10.840 --> 01:52:14.159
We've seen the consequences in the Third rid in Germany,
1738
01:52:14.319 --> 01:52:18.439
and that's basically now where some human beings were suddenly
1739
01:52:18.520 --> 01:52:23.479
classified as and not as persons and not deserving that
1740
01:52:23.720 --> 01:52:28.880
recognition of having dignity. And basically the reaction, the sort
1741
01:52:28.880 --> 01:52:33.359
of the German reaction towards the third right, we never
1742
01:52:33.640 --> 01:52:37.680
want to merely treat another person as an object anymore
1743
01:52:37.800 --> 01:52:40.920
after what had happened then, And this is why they're
1744
01:52:41.000 --> 01:52:44.680
such a strong this is how they come to the conclusion. Basically,
1745
01:52:44.760 --> 01:52:49.159
you know, the chancellor decides to shoot down a plane
1746
01:52:50.159 --> 01:52:54.199
hijacked plane would basically be doing the same thing they
1747
01:52:54.199 --> 01:52:58.800
would treat. They would treat innocent people as a means,
1748
01:52:58.880 --> 01:53:03.840
as mere objects to sacrifice them for to save a
1749
01:53:03.920 --> 01:53:06.920
million other people. And that's where you know, the social
1750
01:53:07.119 --> 01:53:12.680
problematic social dimensions come in. And yeah, thanks a lot
1751
01:53:12.720 --> 01:53:15.199
for stressing sort of the social dimension as well.
1752
01:53:16.199 --> 01:53:19.840
Yes, indeed, so now hopefully we will be able to
1753
01:53:19.880 --> 01:53:23.159
get to some questions from our panel, and let's start
1754
01:53:23.199 --> 01:53:28.720
with Jennifer Hughes. Jennifer, after the conversation we've had thus far,
1755
01:53:29.680 --> 01:53:32.079
what are some questions or comments that you would have.
1756
01:53:33.520 --> 01:53:34.800
Hi, Yeah, Alan.
1757
01:53:34.720 --> 01:53:38.239
Actually asked a little bit of my questions because he
1758
01:53:39.119 --> 01:53:42.039
I was going to ask how you would like to
1759
01:53:42.079 --> 01:53:47.520
see some of these philosophies of yours implement actually physically
1760
01:53:47.800 --> 01:53:53.720
implemented into politics. I do know obviously with plans with politics,
1761
01:53:53.720 --> 01:53:57.039
it varies by region. You know what you're trying to be,
1762
01:53:57.840 --> 01:54:01.680
what area you're trying to be candidate of, and what
1763
01:54:01.840 --> 01:54:06.039
issues are going on in that immediate area. But for
1764
01:54:06.239 --> 01:54:11.840
when I ran, I had a human centered campaign, So
1765
01:54:12.560 --> 01:54:18.079
anything that was in my platform of proposals for the
1766
01:54:18.079 --> 01:54:24.840
city had to improve human health or well being or
1767
01:54:25.000 --> 01:54:30.520
it wasn't included. So some of the things that I
1768
01:54:30.560 --> 01:54:33.600
put in there that might have been kind of something.
1769
01:54:35.119 --> 01:54:37.600
I guess I don't know general is the right.
1770
01:54:37.439 --> 01:54:40.840
Word, but that might apply to some of your philosophies.
1771
01:54:41.520 --> 01:54:46.159
Was that I did have proposals in there for legalization
1772
01:54:46.279 --> 01:54:51.560
or prostitution, legalization of drugs and then taking the money
1773
01:54:51.640 --> 01:54:55.600
from the enforcement that's paid for those things and putting
1774
01:54:55.600 --> 01:54:59.479
it into increasing the health services so that anyone in
1775
01:54:59.520 --> 01:55:04.079
those procassions was taken care of and anyone that was
1776
01:55:05.399 --> 01:55:09.319
participating with people in those propassions or things like that
1777
01:55:09.600 --> 01:55:13.640
made sure that everybody was safe, you know, and things
1778
01:55:13.680 --> 01:55:19.039
like that. So we're anything like that along the lines
1779
01:55:19.079 --> 01:55:21.600
of what you'd like to see implemented or any other
1780
01:55:21.680 --> 01:55:22.439
ideas like that.
1781
01:55:22.800 --> 01:55:26.479
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, for example, prostitution is legal in Germany.
1782
01:55:27.319 --> 01:55:29.800
Why is that because in the end, it's an activity.
1783
01:55:30.800 --> 01:55:32.920
It's it's it's a skill. It's not the selling of
1784
01:55:33.000 --> 01:55:35.239
the body. You don't sell it. If you sold the body,
1785
01:55:35.279 --> 01:55:36.920
then you would have the right to do anything with
1786
01:55:37.000 --> 01:55:40.479
the body, which is definitely not the case. Now you
1787
01:55:40.520 --> 01:55:43.119
don't have the right to eat the other person. When
1788
01:55:43.159 --> 01:55:46.760
it's prostitutional and it's an agreement. The person A meets
1789
01:55:46.800 --> 01:55:50.199
person B. Person A says I'm offering skill ABC. Person
1790
01:55:50.239 --> 01:55:54.680
B says I want skill EFG. Well, if they've got
1791
01:55:54.720 --> 01:55:58.640
different skills, they're not entering into a contract. So it's
1792
01:55:58.640 --> 01:56:00.760
not that. Only if they keep on the sort of
1793
01:56:00.800 --> 01:56:05.720
the request and demand, then they establish a contract and
1794
01:56:05.439 --> 01:56:08.239
and and that's that's perfectly fine. But you know, once
1795
01:56:08.279 --> 01:56:10.600
you start working in that profession, then you also need
1796
01:56:10.640 --> 01:56:14.159
to you know, you need to be covered by medical insurance.
1797
01:56:14.319 --> 01:56:16.960
That's as people are in Germany for example, and and
1798
01:56:17.199 --> 01:56:19.760
social insurance and all that. It's just like in any
1799
01:56:19.800 --> 01:56:24.159
other job as well. And because health is such an
1800
01:56:24.199 --> 01:56:28.279
important issue, I mean, in particular, have my various I
1801
01:56:28.279 --> 01:56:32.359
mean in the United States, I'm concerning the absence of
1802
01:56:32.359 --> 01:56:36.439
a universal health care system. This is really just terrible
1803
01:56:38.840 --> 01:56:41.119
because in the end, people, you know, you get run
1804
01:56:41.119 --> 01:56:42.960
over by a car and you think, you know, if
1805
01:56:42.960 --> 01:56:45.239
I order the ambulance, I might be pro for the
1806
01:56:45.279 --> 01:56:47.840
rest of my life. I've got cancer. I will never
1807
01:56:47.920 --> 01:56:49.760
ever get back on my feet. And this is not
1808
01:56:49.960 --> 01:56:54.319
something which you know, that's such a terrible situation. It's
1809
01:56:54.680 --> 01:56:57.199
not just the lifestyle choice whether you want to have
1810
01:56:57.199 --> 01:56:59.840
a health insurance or anything else. And I'm not making
1811
01:56:59.880 --> 01:57:03.439
you know, I'm not saying so healthcare. That's why I
1812
01:57:03.479 --> 01:57:06.439
refer to sort of the psychological studies early on, where
1813
01:57:06.600 --> 01:57:09.439
like eighty percent said if you were healthy one hundred
1814
01:57:09.439 --> 01:57:11.479
and twenty, they would want to live longer. You know
1815
01:57:11.560 --> 01:57:14.920
that clearly says no, it is that's what most people want. Firstly,
1816
01:57:15.319 --> 01:57:18.520
and secondly, it is actually pre wreck even those who
1817
01:57:18.600 --> 01:57:21.600
don't explicitly want it. In many cases, if they want
1818
01:57:21.600 --> 01:57:23.800
to fly to Mars, they still need to be healthy,
1819
01:57:23.840 --> 01:57:26.600
and they don't, you know, whatever else they want to do,
1820
01:57:26.680 --> 01:57:31.520
it might simply be prerequisite for doing so. But that
1821
01:57:31.560 --> 01:57:35.960
doesn't mean, obviously, if there's a possibility, you know, making physicians,
1822
01:57:36.359 --> 01:57:39.239
it's suicide. If someone's life is not worthy of leaning
1823
01:57:39.279 --> 01:57:41.880
you know, if someone judges for themselves that their life
1824
01:57:41.920 --> 01:57:44.239
is not worthy of being lived anymore, then they all
1825
01:57:44.279 --> 01:57:46.760
should also have the right to basically or you know,
1826
01:57:46.840 --> 01:57:51.000
contacting an organization a physician and asking them to providing
1827
01:57:51.079 --> 01:57:53.640
them with a specific medicine so that they can drink
1828
01:57:53.680 --> 01:57:56.199
it and they can commit suicide. That is part of
1829
01:57:56.239 --> 01:58:00.479
the morphological freedom that I'm particularly interested in in the
1830
01:58:00.560 --> 01:58:03.520
in the in the health insurance issues, because in the end,
1831
01:58:03.640 --> 01:58:06.720
and that has some some some tax this has some
1832
01:58:06.920 --> 01:58:11.119
enormous implications concerning taxes, concerning how we structure the digital
1833
01:58:11.359 --> 01:58:15.560
system and so on, and and and the and I
1834
01:58:15.600 --> 01:58:18.880
think sort of the way the way things are structured
1835
01:58:18.920 --> 01:58:22.199
in the States, it makes in the extremely libertarian way,
1836
01:58:22.479 --> 01:58:25.079
it makes the CEOs of big companies richer and richer
1837
01:58:25.439 --> 01:58:27.279
in the system as we have it in China. It
1838
01:58:27.359 --> 01:58:30.920
makes it makes the political leaders. It's in the interests
1839
01:58:30.960 --> 01:58:33.880
of the authoritium, governments of the political leaders and the
1840
01:58:34.039 --> 01:58:37.439
But here, unfortunately, the Europeans don't have a better Optionese
1841
01:58:37.479 --> 01:58:40.159
and either because they have the GDP. They at least
1842
01:58:40.199 --> 01:58:43.039
have a universal healthcare system, which is great, which is
1843
01:58:43.079 --> 01:58:45.960
why the Europeans from the European Union live for to
1844
01:58:46.000 --> 01:58:49.640
five years longer than US Americans, which is already something
1845
01:58:50.239 --> 01:58:53.079
which is significant because American healthcare system is much better
1846
01:58:53.119 --> 01:58:56.720
than the European one, because there are many treatments which
1847
01:58:56.720 --> 01:59:00.479
are being offered there which are not being offered in Europe. However,
1848
01:59:00.600 --> 01:59:04.399
and but in Europe there's a problem with financing, and
1849
01:59:04.479 --> 01:59:07.279
the financing I think it has a lot to do.
1850
01:59:07.399 --> 01:59:09.720
We don't And that's why I'm sort of also presenting
1851
01:59:09.720 --> 01:59:12.359
the euro transhumanist I'm challenging, No, we need to take
1852
01:59:12.399 --> 01:59:15.239
something on board from the Americans, maybe also learn something
1853
01:59:15.279 --> 01:59:18.239
from the Chinese. We need to be more open to entrepreneurship,
1854
01:59:18.479 --> 01:59:23.159
more daring and praise gene technologies and praise embraise digital technologies.
1855
01:59:23.239 --> 01:59:27.119
Develop have like a good AI company, have an infrastructure
1856
01:59:27.159 --> 01:59:29.680
though that we don't rely on one way in our
1857
01:59:29.720 --> 01:59:33.920
five gen systems, which is absolutely scary because they basically
1858
01:59:33.960 --> 01:59:36.680
the Chinese have parts in the German five gen system
1859
01:59:36.960 --> 01:59:39.479
and which it probably enables them to get hold of
1860
01:59:39.520 --> 01:59:41.920
the data, which is what they interested in anyway. So
1861
01:59:42.119 --> 01:59:45.199
and in addition, in Europe we've got a GDPR General
1862
01:59:45.239 --> 01:59:48.000
Data Protection Regulation which you know, that's why you have
1863
01:59:48.039 --> 01:59:50.239
to click except when you when you come over to you.
1864
01:59:51.000 --> 01:59:54.640
And but then that makes it enormously differul to comprehensively
1865
01:59:54.920 --> 01:59:58.640
collect digital data. But if digital data are so important
1866
01:59:58.920 --> 02:00:02.840
we give them to or the tech leaders anyway, then
1867
02:00:02.880 --> 02:00:05.199
we should use them. We in Europe should use them,
1868
02:00:05.479 --> 02:00:08.000
and maybe we should have an institution which collects them
1869
02:00:08.039 --> 02:00:10.760
in an obligatory manner. And then that and we should
1870
02:00:10.840 --> 02:00:13.960
use the personalized to collect the data in order to
1871
02:00:14.039 --> 02:00:16.720
pay for it. What we are interested in, what democracy
1872
02:00:16.760 --> 02:00:19.039
is interested in, and that what is the what are
1873
02:00:19.039 --> 02:00:22.079
we interested in in in the universal healthcare system, in
1874
02:00:22.159 --> 02:00:26.159
other social securities, in education, infrastructure in particular in the
1875
02:00:26.159 --> 02:00:28.760
healthcare system, you know, but we need money for it,
1876
02:00:28.800 --> 02:00:32.000
and if we have we don't collect personalized digital data.
1877
02:00:32.199 --> 02:00:34.800
I think Europe is just self destroying and people are
1878
02:00:34.880 --> 02:00:39.119
just coming over for pizza pasta and watching us dancing
1879
02:00:39.159 --> 02:00:41.600
as colladiators in front of the Colisee, and that's the
1880
02:00:41.640 --> 02:00:44.159
only reason why people might be coming to Europe. And
1881
02:00:44.199 --> 02:00:46.640
that's not a good And I'm hoping that we sort
1882
02:00:46.640 --> 02:00:49.359
of we need to learn and the US also needs
1883
02:00:49.399 --> 02:00:52.279
to learn, because when it comes to digital data collection,
1884
02:00:52.600 --> 02:00:54.680
I think the Chinese are doing a better job in
1885
02:00:54.960 --> 02:00:59.359
certain prison in the United States because I mean certain
1886
02:00:59.560 --> 02:01:02.359
better up in the say in a more efficient way,
1887
02:01:02.640 --> 02:01:06.600
because they basically have the morally obligatory way. They collect
1888
02:01:06.680 --> 02:01:09.760
all the digital data within China, and why are you Huawei,
1889
02:01:09.840 --> 02:01:12.439
Ali Baba and TikTok outside of China. So we need
1890
02:01:12.479 --> 02:01:16.600
to we need this competitive element needs to be taken
1891
02:01:16.640 --> 02:01:22.640
into consideration. So the financing must never be forgotten. So
1892
02:01:22.720 --> 02:01:25.720
that's an important part. But I would want to, you know,
1893
02:01:25.800 --> 02:01:29.279
if you know, actually implement something promote the universal healthcare
1894
02:01:29.319 --> 02:01:32.840
system in the United States and then the quality of
1895
02:01:32.880 --> 02:01:35.399
life would be significantly improved for many people.
1896
02:01:36.720 --> 02:01:40.279
We have some things here. Again, so when I ran,
1897
02:01:40.359 --> 02:01:43.399
it was for mayor, so it would be in charge
1898
02:01:43.479 --> 02:01:47.159
of the city, not a state or the country. But
1899
02:01:47.279 --> 02:01:51.359
there are some campaigns for mayor's reversal health care and
1900
02:01:51.399 --> 02:01:54.199
things like that. But you know, if you structure it
1901
02:01:54.239 --> 02:01:57.119
safe for your city properly, where you're doing things like
1902
02:01:57.159 --> 02:02:01.399
this like again legalizing prostitution, legalizing drugs and taking the
1903
02:02:01.600 --> 02:02:06.079
enforcement and detention funds and reappropriating it to where you're
1904
02:02:06.239 --> 02:02:10.119
setting your city up to have its own universal health
1905
02:02:10.119 --> 02:02:13.159
care pen where all of your u members of your
1906
02:02:13.199 --> 02:02:16.439
city or town or wherever are set then you can
1907
02:02:16.520 --> 02:02:20.119
at least start to implement those things, uh and do
1908
02:02:20.399 --> 02:02:23.479
well for your city and then show that your city
1909
02:02:23.600 --> 02:02:27.319
is thriving and then hopefully connect with other mayors and
1910
02:02:27.359 --> 02:02:31.000
things like that and trying to make it, you know, nationwide,
1911
02:02:31.039 --> 02:02:33.880
but you have to start somewhere by at least giving
1912
02:02:33.920 --> 02:02:37.119
your own people that you are responsible for health care.
1913
02:02:37.800 --> 02:02:42.119
It's that's that's a that's that's a great policy. And
1914
02:02:42.159 --> 02:02:44.000
I think if you can show it you can make
1915
02:02:44.039 --> 02:02:47.119
it work within the city then then so it's not
1916
02:02:47.239 --> 02:02:51.560
just like a communist utopia, it is actually something it
1917
02:02:51.680 --> 02:02:57.520
works without people necessary getting appropriated. You can still make money,
1918
02:02:57.560 --> 02:03:00.439
but like the people don't don't have to work about
1919
02:03:00.600 --> 02:03:04.239
cancer basically ending up in depth for the rest of
1920
02:03:04.239 --> 02:03:09.079
their lives and and one one has to sort of
1921
02:03:09.119 --> 02:03:13.960
the tricky issues is always the tricky issue is about
1922
02:03:14.039 --> 02:03:18.000
investing the money in you, in you drugs. This is when, when,
1923
02:03:18.039 --> 02:03:22.119
when when, so how to do that best? And here
1924
02:03:22.239 --> 02:03:25.199
I'm very well aware that the United States is doing
1925
02:03:25.199 --> 02:03:27.840
an actually very good job because they, i mean, there's
1926
02:03:27.960 --> 02:03:31.960
much more money available and and in Europe, unfortunately, because
1927
02:03:32.000 --> 02:03:36.520
of the lack of lack of funding, they are not
1928
02:03:36.680 --> 02:03:40.680
willing to undertake risky research. They usually develop some new
1929
02:03:40.720 --> 02:03:47.560
drugs for specific issues. And but in the United States
1930
02:03:47.600 --> 02:03:50.279
we have like so much venture capitalists to basically say, oh,
1931
02:03:50.359 --> 02:03:52.600
let's try things out, even if they sound crazy. And
1932
02:03:52.640 --> 02:03:56.119
then if they've got a breakthrough something new, that's wonderful.
1933
02:03:56.159 --> 02:04:00.079
You know, that's a wonderful thing. And I would hope
1934
02:04:00.199 --> 02:04:03.760
and I would hope that can be also realized by
1935
02:04:03.800 --> 02:04:07.279
means of maybe public universities, but we all know sort
1936
02:04:07.279 --> 02:04:10.840
of public systems are not often so more risk of words.
1937
02:04:11.199 --> 02:04:13.680
On the other hand, what makes me, you know, more
1938
02:04:13.720 --> 02:04:17.199
optimistic is you know, the COVID vaccine and the end
1939
02:04:17.359 --> 02:04:20.359
was the BioNTech was developed in in in the center
1940
02:04:20.399 --> 02:04:24.800
of Germany. And they were they were like some scientists
1941
02:04:24.880 --> 02:04:27.399
of Turkish origin who got a you know who had
1942
02:04:27.439 --> 02:04:32.760
an excellent training education and they become entrepreneurs in in Germany,
1943
02:04:33.000 --> 02:04:36.600
and they basically made the decisive step even though they're brilliant,
1944
02:04:36.840 --> 02:04:38.960
you know, within like eight or nine months they got
1945
02:04:38.960 --> 02:04:42.600
ready some COVID vaccine and even though you know, you know,
1946
02:04:42.640 --> 02:04:45.920
they're brilliant, brilliant scientists you know, all over the world.
1947
02:04:45.960 --> 02:04:48.880
So so it seems to even be able to work
1948
02:04:48.920 --> 02:04:51.600
that one gets some if if one wants to and
1949
02:04:51.680 --> 02:04:54.640
if one puts effort into it, one can even within
1950
02:04:54.640 --> 02:04:57.800
a public system, it seems to be possible to getting
1951
02:04:57.800 --> 02:05:00.079
such a break to freaks through, as the cod that
1952
02:05:00.399 --> 02:05:03.640
seemed clearly clearly demonstrates. So one would have to you know,
1953
02:05:03.800 --> 02:05:07.000
fund the universities. You know, I'm not sure whether the
1954
02:05:07.039 --> 02:05:10.399
major can can and how far that's possible possible decision,
1955
02:05:10.439 --> 02:05:15.439
or whether it's more for the more regional thing. But
1956
02:05:15.439 --> 02:05:18.039
but you know, this would would have to be would
1957
02:05:18.119 --> 02:05:20.960
have to be shown as well, because research in specific
1958
02:05:21.159 --> 02:05:25.800
you know, anti aging treatments and that that's important for
1959
02:05:25.880 --> 02:05:28.560
promoting that kind of that feel too.
1960
02:05:30.119 --> 02:05:34.159
Yes, thank you, And this has been a fascinating conversation
1961
02:05:34.239 --> 02:05:37.680
on the subject of healthcare and the US Transhumanist Party
1962
02:05:37.760 --> 02:05:42.359
did support Jennifer's plan when she ran for mayor of Camden,
1963
02:05:42.399 --> 02:05:45.560
New Jersey in twenty twenty one. So it was a
1964
02:05:45.600 --> 02:05:56.359
local effort to provide as universal a healthcare accessibility as possible.
1965
02:05:56.800 --> 02:06:00.359
And I think the issue here is that when a
1966
02:06:00.359 --> 02:06:03.439
lot of people talk about universal health care, they think
1967
02:06:03.640 --> 02:06:09.720
of just the central government providing healthcare that is mandatory
1968
02:06:09.800 --> 02:06:13.600
for everyone to pay into and participate in, and there
1969
02:06:13.600 --> 02:06:17.279
are no private alternatives. That's the Canadian model and it
1970
02:06:17.319 --> 02:06:21.159
has been frankly a disaster because in Canada there are
1971
02:06:21.680 --> 02:06:26.680
long cues for essential medical services and for complex procedures,
1972
02:06:26.680 --> 02:06:30.159
for cutting edge procedures, the Canadian system denies them to
1973
02:06:30.239 --> 02:06:34.119
patients and they come to the United States to receive
1974
02:06:34.239 --> 02:06:38.640
those procedures. Now, on the other hand, Courchet Rights in
1975
02:06:38.680 --> 02:06:42.439
regard to life expectancy in the United States, he believes
1976
02:06:42.439 --> 02:06:46.239
it's lower because Americans love fast cars, firearms, and illegal drugs.
1977
02:06:46.800 --> 02:06:51.920
What the life expectancy data suggests visa the United States
1978
02:06:52.000 --> 02:06:57.079
versus Europe is that the conditional life expectancy, that is
1979
02:06:57.720 --> 02:07:02.079
your remaining expected lifespan if you've attained a particular age,
1980
02:07:02.279 --> 02:07:05.680
is lower in the United States than in Europe until
1981
02:07:05.760 --> 02:07:08.279
about the age of seventy five. So if in the
1982
02:07:08.399 --> 02:07:11.279
United States you survive to the age of seventy five,
1983
02:07:11.720 --> 02:07:16.680
then your remaining life expectancy becomes comparable to that in
1984
02:07:16.960 --> 02:07:21.000
European countries. Because, as you have pointed out stuff on,
1985
02:07:21.079 --> 02:07:23.680
the United States does have an advantage in terms of
1986
02:07:23.880 --> 02:07:27.920
cutting edge medical care, being able to treat and cure
1987
02:07:28.000 --> 02:07:32.720
diseases more effectively, and getting more high tech care available
1988
02:07:32.760 --> 02:07:36.680
to people, but a lot of Americans tend to die
1989
02:07:36.680 --> 02:07:40.239
at younger ages. One because of the cultural aspects that
1990
02:07:40.359 --> 02:07:43.920
Courchet mentioned, there is more of a risk taking culture
1991
02:07:44.159 --> 02:07:47.159
in terms of physical risk in the United States. That's unfortunate.
1992
02:07:47.479 --> 02:07:51.920
Another would be the deaths of despair, the opioid over doses,
1993
02:07:52.279 --> 02:07:56.760
the deaths from alcohol abuse, from suicides. Those seem to
1994
02:07:56.800 --> 02:07:59.520
be more common in the United States as well, another
1995
02:07:59.560 --> 02:08:03.680
cultural problem, but also may be a response to precarious
1996
02:08:03.720 --> 02:08:10.600
economic conditions. And then also there could be situations where somebody,
1997
02:08:11.159 --> 02:08:15.920
for reasons of not being able to afford that healthcare,
1998
02:08:16.039 --> 02:08:20.079
might not be getting healthcare for some preventable condition that
1999
02:08:20.199 --> 02:08:24.279
could have been addressed. And that's the part where a
2000
02:08:24.640 --> 02:08:28.239
universal healthcare approach could fill in.
2001
02:08:28.279 --> 02:08:30.039
Some of those gaps.
2002
02:08:30.359 --> 02:08:33.359
Now, it's interesting, David Wallace Croft, just.
2003
02:08:35.840 --> 02:08:39.199
Like I mean, thirty million people not being insured. It
2004
02:08:39.279 --> 02:08:42.720
is just a significant amount of number, a significant number
2005
02:08:42.760 --> 02:08:47.439
in the United States. So that must have consequences. And
2006
02:08:48.800 --> 02:08:51.239
even if you're insured, if you can't maybe if you've
2007
02:08:51.279 --> 02:08:54.800
got a medical precondition, maybe you cannot take out the insurance.
2008
02:08:55.159 --> 02:08:57.119
And that's why I've had that students who came over
2009
02:08:57.199 --> 02:08:59.359
to Italy to study here because they couldn't get an
2010
02:08:59.359 --> 02:09:06.720
affordable insurance with their specific preconditions. And you rightly refer
2011
02:09:06.840 --> 02:09:10.439
to well the like a like a universal as consiste
2012
02:09:10.720 --> 02:09:12.920
doesn't have to mean that you can't have a private system.
2013
02:09:13.079 --> 02:09:15.560
For example, in Germany we have there's a mixed system.
2014
02:09:15.760 --> 02:09:19.840
Living Italy, it is different, but in Germany we've got
2015
02:09:19.840 --> 02:09:22.720
a mixed system and sort of you have the possibility
2016
02:09:22.880 --> 02:09:25.359
to drop out if you make enough money and then
2017
02:09:25.479 --> 02:09:29.319
to solely be on a private insurance. And so a
2018
02:09:29.359 --> 02:09:32.520
mixed system would actually make a lot of sense. And
2019
02:09:32.560 --> 02:09:33.319
I agree with you.
2020
02:09:33.399 --> 02:09:37.399
There, yes, and I think a mixed system is in
2021
02:09:37.560 --> 02:09:43.239
practice what we would advocate. By the way, since twenty ten,
2022
02:09:43.319 --> 02:09:47.000
the Affordable Care Act in the United States does prohibit
2023
02:09:47.079 --> 02:09:53.560
insurers from denying or excluding coverage based on pre existing conditions.
2024
02:09:53.640 --> 02:09:58.119
So technically, according to US federal law, insurers may no
2025
02:09:58.199 --> 02:10:01.920
longer do that, even though so health insurers certainly used
2026
02:10:01.920 --> 02:10:05.640
to do that before the Affordable Care Act, and that
2027
02:10:05.720 --> 02:10:09.640
led to the kinds of situations that you described. But
2028
02:10:09.800 --> 02:10:14.840
there was a question from David Wallascroft, what does the
2029
02:10:15.000 --> 02:10:17.479
US Transhumanist Party have to say, what as it stands
2030
02:10:17.479 --> 02:10:21.119
on universal healthcare? And we do have our Transhumanist Bill
2031
02:10:21.159 --> 02:10:25.039
of Rights where we address it. Here's the link to
2032
02:10:25.079 --> 02:10:27.720
the Transhumanist Bill of Rights, version three point zero. It
2033
02:10:27.800 --> 02:10:33.720
is a nuanced stance, so I'll read article seven. All
2034
02:10:33.800 --> 02:10:36.720
sentient entities should be the beneficiaries of a system of
2035
02:10:36.800 --> 02:10:41.960
universal healthcare. A system of versal healthcare does not necessitate
2036
02:10:42.039 --> 02:10:46.319
any particular means, policy, framework, source, or method of payment
2037
02:10:46.359 --> 02:10:49.279
for delivering health care. A system of universal health care
2038
02:10:49.319 --> 02:10:52.880
may be provided privately by governments or by some combination thereof,
2039
02:10:53.199 --> 02:10:57.439
as long as in practice healthcare is abundant, inexpensive, accessible,
2040
02:10:57.520 --> 02:11:02.000
and effective in curing diseases, healing injuries, and lengthening lifespans.
2041
02:11:02.079 --> 02:11:06.399
So this is more of a consequentialist definition of universal
2042
02:11:06.439 --> 02:11:11.439
health care. Essentially, we are agnostic as to how to
2043
02:11:11.600 --> 02:11:14.159
do it as long as the results are achieved. So
2044
02:11:14.199 --> 02:11:17.319
if it's possible to have a private system where everybody
2045
02:11:17.399 --> 02:11:22.439
gets affordable, high quality healthcare, then that's the way to go.
2046
02:11:22.560 --> 02:11:25.159
If that's not possible, if government needs to fill in
2047
02:11:25.199 --> 02:11:30.760
some of the gaps, for instance, addressing medical emergencies or
2048
02:11:30.840 --> 02:11:34.800
addressing preventable conditions that are not that expensive to treat
2049
02:11:35.159 --> 02:11:40.119
for people of lesser means, to fill in that gap
2050
02:11:40.119 --> 02:11:44.920
that I described and prevent those early deaths, that could
2051
02:11:44.960 --> 02:11:49.199
be an approach too. If the private system is just
2052
02:11:49.239 --> 02:11:53.960
a complete mess, maybe there could be a country where
2053
02:11:54.560 --> 02:11:59.800
health insurers are dysfunctional and a governmental system might be
2054
02:11:59.800 --> 02:12:04.279
a superior way of providing healthcare in that country. I'm
2055
02:12:04.319 --> 02:12:08.159
not making a statement about the United States here, I'm
2056
02:12:08.159 --> 02:12:11.159
making a hypothetical statement, like, what if there's a country
2057
02:12:11.199 --> 02:12:15.119
where all private insurance is dysfunctional, there's no good way
2058
02:12:15.159 --> 02:12:17.840
to pay for medical care, but somebody could set up
2059
02:12:17.840 --> 02:12:22.359
a government system and start very quickly providing healthcare, then
2060
02:12:22.479 --> 02:12:24.840
that could be the way to go for that country.
2061
02:12:25.199 --> 02:12:30.000
So the US Transhumanist Party, in its platform and the
2062
02:12:30.000 --> 02:12:33.840
Transhumanist Bill of Rights does not say there's one particular way.
2063
02:12:34.039 --> 02:12:38.279
It does say we want this consequence of universal availability
2064
02:12:38.359 --> 02:12:44.079
of healthcare to be desirable and achievable, and Jennifer's approach
2065
02:12:44.319 --> 02:12:46.720
in Camden, New Jersey as an example of a local
2066
02:12:46.800 --> 02:12:51.079
way to work toward that. So maybe there could be
2067
02:12:51.199 --> 02:12:55.359
some localities or states that create their own programs, and
2068
02:12:55.439 --> 02:12:58.880
there could be an emergent bottom up system of universal
2069
02:12:58.880 --> 02:13:04.680
healthcare as well in those ways. But absolutely this is
2070
02:13:05.199 --> 02:13:08.199
an area of conversation worth continuing, and this is where
2071
02:13:08.359 --> 02:13:14.239
perhaps a euro transhumanist policy framework might have some recommendations
2072
02:13:14.359 --> 02:13:19.319
that would differ from recommendations that might stem from the
2073
02:13:19.399 --> 02:13:24.520
American political landscape. Now, I also wanted to make sure
2074
02:13:24.600 --> 02:13:27.479
Charlie got a chance to ask a question, So Charlie
2075
02:13:27.560 --> 02:13:28.439
please go ahead.
2076
02:13:31.600 --> 02:13:34.920
First, I want to say thank you Stefan. Great to
2077
02:13:34.960 --> 02:13:38.479
see you again and I always enjoy your discussions. And
2078
02:13:38.479 --> 02:13:41.720
by the way, everybody should be aware that there's going
2079
02:13:41.800 --> 02:13:44.479
to be another Beyond Humanism conference coming up this year,
2080
02:13:44.560 --> 02:13:46.479
or Stephan if you want to give that information later
2081
02:13:46.520 --> 02:13:50.239
on or put a link to it like you had
2082
02:13:50.319 --> 02:13:55.680
last year. You know, I ran for president. I was
2083
02:13:55.720 --> 02:13:58.600
the nominee for the United States Transhumanist Party. In my platform,
2084
02:13:58.640 --> 02:14:02.239
I was pushing for the idea of uh, you know,
2085
02:14:02.399 --> 02:14:07.520
free universal healthcare and free education and you know, higher
2086
02:14:07.680 --> 02:14:14.159
education for everybody, and universal basic income. And you know,
2087
02:14:14.239 --> 02:14:17.359
there was discussions about whether or not that was considered
2088
02:14:18.079 --> 02:14:22.960
far left or whatever, which is funny because now if
2089
02:14:22.960 --> 02:14:28.520
anybody's paying attention to what Musk has been talking about recently,
2090
02:14:28.760 --> 02:14:30.960
is they you know, you your stuff and you brought
2091
02:14:31.000 --> 02:14:34.880
him up earlier. There was just a very interesting uh
2092
02:14:36.479 --> 02:14:40.479
interview with one of my friends, Peter Diamants, who interviewed
2093
02:14:40.560 --> 02:14:45.000
him just a couple of weeks ago on their YouTube
2094
02:14:45.039 --> 02:14:52.560
podcast called Moonshots. And now Musk is talking about universal
2095
02:14:52.600 --> 02:14:55.039
basic income and he agrees with in fact, he calls
2096
02:14:55.039 --> 02:14:58.119
it universal high income. And the reason they're doing this now,
2097
02:14:58.159 --> 02:15:00.560
and this is the reason I was pushed for it,
2098
02:15:00.600 --> 02:15:03.960
is because you know, one of the things that we
2099
02:15:04.359 --> 02:15:07.960
can't ignore in this discussion, especially in this discussion because
2100
02:15:07.960 --> 02:15:12.680
we're the Transhumanist Party, is the coming age of abundance
2101
02:15:13.239 --> 02:15:16.720
and that's going to change everything. Really. I mean this,
2102
02:15:16.960 --> 02:15:18.479
you know, the idea that we're going to have the
2103
02:15:18.520 --> 02:15:22.159
abundance of all of the resources that we want, and
2104
02:15:22.199 --> 02:15:28.159
that automation is going to bring about robots, which Muscus
2105
02:15:28.199 --> 02:15:30.640
predicting is going to be in the billions, and it's
2106
02:15:30.960 --> 02:15:32.960
pretty accurate actually if you look at all the different
2107
02:15:33.039 --> 02:15:35.840
robotic companies that are out there. So there's going to
2108
02:15:35.880 --> 02:15:40.760
be a transformation in ways that are just unbelievable. And
2109
02:15:41.239 --> 02:15:46.439
in fact, diamants Who's you know, he spoke at my
2110
02:15:46.520 --> 02:15:48.640
conference that I held in two thousand and seven, and
2111
02:15:48.680 --> 02:15:51.880
that's where he and Ray Kurzwell first talked about creating
2112
02:15:51.920 --> 02:15:56.319
the Singular University, which they did. Diamants Is is basically
2113
02:15:56.359 --> 02:16:00.439
a big proponent of kur aswell as am I, but
2114
02:16:00.560 --> 02:16:04.000
he's changed his idea too about when is the singularity
2115
02:16:04.039 --> 02:16:07.439
going to happen because of the way everything is accelerating,
2116
02:16:07.520 --> 02:16:11.960
the way AI is accelerating. So in that discussion that
2117
02:16:12.000 --> 02:16:15.560
they had just the other two weeks ago, musk is
2118
02:16:15.760 --> 02:16:17.880
thinking that we're already in the singularity. You know, that's
2119
02:16:17.880 --> 02:16:22.600
a little bit of a push, do you. Amnis has
2120
02:16:22.640 --> 02:16:27.720
already said that he thinks that the Kurzweil's approximation of
2121
02:16:27.760 --> 02:16:30.239
the singularity happening in twenty forty five is too far
2122
02:16:30.319 --> 02:16:33.280
out because everybody's starting to think it's going to happen
2123
02:16:33.319 --> 02:16:36.200
a lot sooner because of this acceleration that they're seeing,
2124
02:16:36.280 --> 02:16:38.840
and this is being prompted by things like chat, GPT
2125
02:16:38.920 --> 02:16:41.079
and the way it's getting better and better. But they
2126
02:16:41.079 --> 02:16:44.159
don't even that's just the superficial version of what's going
2127
02:16:44.239 --> 02:16:48.079
to happen. But the idea of the abundance economy is coming,
2128
02:16:48.120 --> 02:16:51.000
and it's coming in pretty soon, and that's going to
2129
02:16:51.040 --> 02:16:55.239
make it. Then we're going to talk about other things
2130
02:16:55.280 --> 02:16:58.520
that are coming. So when you have not only an
2131
02:16:58.559 --> 02:17:02.399
abundant economy where you know, you can have anything you wanted,
2132
02:17:02.959 --> 02:17:07.079
all at any time, which is what they were proposing, Uh,
2133
02:17:07.760 --> 02:17:11.639
you're also talking about because of automation and the advancement
2134
02:17:11.719 --> 02:17:16.200
of computation, we're going to have full immersion, virtual reality,
2135
02:17:16.520 --> 02:17:18.920
full immersion not just where you see it and hear it,
2136
02:17:18.959 --> 02:17:22.799
but taste and touch and feel and then well you
2137
02:17:23.079 --> 02:17:26.600
then then what when we this discussion started about sex, right,
2138
02:17:26.639 --> 02:17:29.600
I mean, people are going to start using that full aversion.
2139
02:17:29.639 --> 02:17:32.520
I mean, let's let's not pretend that that's not what's
2140
02:17:32.520 --> 02:17:34.840
going to happen. When the Internet happened, the biggest the
2141
02:17:35.600 --> 02:17:39.200
biggest part of the Internet was porn. So you know
2142
02:17:39.280 --> 02:17:42.600
these things are all coming very soon. And then you've
2143
02:17:42.600 --> 02:17:48.200
got on top of that the advent of health, where
2144
02:17:48.200 --> 02:17:52.440
you're gonna have age regeneration, age, you know, reversal, and
2145
02:17:52.440 --> 02:17:55.200
people are gonna be young again. So the question about
2146
02:17:56.000 --> 02:17:58.719
whether people that are older can be dating people younger, well,
2147
02:17:58.760 --> 02:18:02.639
if everybody looks everybody's healthy again, and everybody's uh, you know,
2148
02:18:02.760 --> 02:18:07.440
twenty years old chronologically or healthy wise, then that's going
2149
02:18:07.520 --> 02:18:10.280
to change too. So there's a lot of things that
2150
02:18:10.319 --> 02:18:14.000
are coming that are gonna that are gonna change, and
2151
02:18:14.040 --> 02:18:16.799
it's gonna come really soon. So I look forward to
2152
02:18:16.840 --> 02:18:21.840
having this whole discussion again soon because the idea of
2153
02:18:22.639 --> 02:18:27.200
what's you know, right or wrong, or what can or
2154
02:18:27.200 --> 02:18:30.639
can't be done is all going to be is all
2155
02:18:30.680 --> 02:18:33.399
in flux, and it's gonna change dramatically because we're going
2156
02:18:33.479 --> 02:18:35.600
to be living a lot longer. Is the idea of
2157
02:18:35.920 --> 02:18:38.719
you know, you you were saying polygamy is good or bad? Well,
2158
02:18:39.239 --> 02:18:41.879
how do we determine whether or not monogamy is a
2159
02:18:41.920 --> 02:18:44.280
good idea if we're living a thousand years. I mean,
2160
02:18:44.280 --> 02:18:47.239
there's there's so many things that we have to think about.
2161
02:18:47.840 --> 02:18:52.680
So I I I agree mostly with with a lot
2162
02:18:52.719 --> 02:18:54.760
of the things that we're brought forward by stuff on.
2163
02:18:55.360 --> 02:18:58.040
But I do think that the there's gonna be a
2164
02:18:58.120 --> 02:19:01.799
huge transformation on so many aspects of what we just
2165
02:19:01.840 --> 02:19:04.280
talked about that I would like to see this because
2166
02:19:04.280 --> 02:19:06.159
it looks like we're running out of time. So I
2167
02:19:06.200 --> 02:19:08.719
think we should have another discussion with steffan and and
2168
02:19:08.840 --> 02:19:11.959
talk about futuristic things don't coming up, because that's you know,
2169
02:19:12.399 --> 02:19:13.840
the transhumanist part. Let's do that.
2170
02:19:14.680 --> 02:19:17.600
It's always wonderful talking to you, Charlie. I hope I'll
2171
02:19:17.639 --> 02:19:19.840
see you again. By the way, Yeah, in July June
2172
02:19:19.879 --> 02:19:23.040
to end of June, beginning of July and Timishwara in Romania,
2173
02:19:23.840 --> 02:19:29.239
there will be the SIXTEENES Beyond Humanism Conference in Timishwara.
2174
02:19:29.440 --> 02:19:32.479
It's on the website beyond Humanism dot org. You will
2175
02:19:32.479 --> 02:19:34.959
find the call for papers, which is still up up
2176
02:19:35.079 --> 02:19:38.920
until the middle of March. Submit your abstracts. We've had
2177
02:19:38.959 --> 02:19:42.680
wonderful speakers there and I mean in the past, and
2178
02:19:42.719 --> 02:19:44.799
I'm sure we'll have it. You know, it was great
2179
02:19:44.920 --> 02:19:48.520
meeting you last year in Paris, and I hope I
2180
02:19:48.520 --> 02:19:51.559
see you again this year in Timishwarra as well. I mean,
2181
02:19:52.079 --> 02:19:55.959
we've had other speakers from the community of course, everything
2182
02:19:56.000 --> 02:19:59.920
you know, from Natasha Vita more to to my team
2183
02:20:00.079 --> 02:20:03.040
Ross Platch he was there twice already, and many others.
2184
02:20:03.120 --> 02:20:07.520
You know, we've I'm under a Sunberg was present, and
2185
02:20:07.559 --> 02:20:10.639
we've had a really great community of speakers. We've also
2186
02:20:10.680 --> 02:20:15.319
had engineers, we've had artists, you know Stellatocach they were
2187
02:20:15.360 --> 02:20:17.600
all but Julians of Ales because they were all part
2188
02:20:17.639 --> 02:20:20.879
of that conference series. So beyond yous dot org. And
2189
02:20:20.920 --> 02:20:23.959
then you can submit your submit your abstracts and you're
2190
02:20:24.040 --> 02:20:26.799
right now the things are really progressing very fast, you
2191
02:20:26.799 --> 02:20:29.680
know what I'm what, I'm quite I'm quite surprised so
2192
02:20:29.840 --> 02:20:31.959
far we have like we have a lot of we
2193
02:20:32.040 --> 02:20:35.719
have sort of the rings which measure of biometric data,
2194
02:20:35.959 --> 02:20:40.879
and the watches and and and the smartphone. I'm surprised
2195
02:20:40.920 --> 02:20:45.079
that not more people, not more chips actually move into
2196
02:20:45.360 --> 02:20:47.559
into the inside of our body. We have to have
2197
02:20:48.000 --> 02:20:53.440
like the permanent surveillance of our body system from the inside,
2198
02:20:53.639 --> 02:20:56.319
and then we can analyze all the data using you know,
2199
02:20:56.440 --> 02:21:00.200
correlations between digital data and health and capacities, and we
2200
02:21:00.319 --> 02:21:02.280
do it, and then we can implement you know, the
2201
02:21:02.600 --> 02:21:05.840
weak AI systems which we have already and that would
2202
02:21:05.879 --> 02:21:08.559
have you know, we we detective blood pressure goes up
2203
02:21:08.840 --> 02:21:11.680
if there's diabetes coming, we can we can get the
2204
02:21:11.719 --> 02:21:15.520
measurements before it's even causes any problems. And then you know,
2205
02:21:15.600 --> 02:21:18.000
we can we can implement measures, we can start a
2206
02:21:18.079 --> 02:21:21.280
diet that our lifestyle, take drugs. You know, this is
2207
02:21:21.280 --> 02:21:23.920
what this is the next step we need to become.
2208
02:21:24.239 --> 02:21:26.959
You know, R I D chips need to become part
2209
02:21:27.040 --> 02:21:30.639
of our bodies. And and really I expect that to
2210
02:21:30.719 --> 02:21:33.559
happen very soon. I would love to have that and
2211
02:21:33.639 --> 02:21:36.719
to have like in my you know, besides the besides
2212
02:21:36.760 --> 02:21:40.319
the Internet Internet of Things, and I would love to
2213
02:21:40.399 --> 02:21:43.600
complement it with the Internet of bodily things, my ento
2214
02:21:43.959 --> 02:21:47.440
entire body being permanently measured by R I D chips
2215
02:21:47.479 --> 02:21:51.280
and being you know, analyzed by by AI and and
2216
02:21:51.360 --> 02:21:55.120
that would be definitely an extremely useful step for actually
2217
02:21:55.159 --> 02:21:59.680
doing realizing some some significant forms of preventing diseases an
2218
02:21:59.680 --> 02:22:03.520
increase single house. So you know, I hope this message
2219
02:22:03.559 --> 02:22:06.600
get you know, this will be realized fairly soon. And
2220
02:22:06.680 --> 02:22:09.079
do submit your abstracts to the Next to the Next
2221
02:22:09.120 --> 02:22:12.479
Thing's pH and Beyond Humanism conference in Timishart.
2222
02:22:13.559 --> 02:22:17.600
Yes, thank you very much. Stuff On that's beyond Humanism
2223
02:22:17.680 --> 02:22:20.520
dot org. Here is the url again, this is the
2224
02:22:20.520 --> 02:22:23.680
website of the Post human Studies Hobin. I'll have a
2225
02:22:23.799 --> 02:22:28.040
question on that following up shortly, but first I wanted
2226
02:22:28.079 --> 02:22:33.840
to acknowledge the comment from our friend Didier, who did
2227
02:22:34.000 --> 02:22:38.799
want you to talk about the subject you discussed just now.
2228
02:22:38.879 --> 02:22:43.479
Dda Cornell, who is of course quite interested in facilitating
2229
02:22:43.559 --> 02:22:49.559
more sharing of individuals health data. He said, hello, stuff On,
2230
02:22:49.600 --> 02:22:52.479
you were in the past developing great ideas about longevity
2231
02:22:52.520 --> 02:22:55.079
and sharing for health data. This could be something to
2232
02:22:55.120 --> 02:22:57.760
develop in a euro transhumanist view, and I think you
2233
02:22:57.799 --> 02:23:01.799
did speak about this, so I just wanted to point
2234
02:23:01.840 --> 02:23:06.600
out this is an area of interest to DEGA. Now,
2235
02:23:06.639 --> 02:23:09.760
I would hope with all of these chips embedded in
2236
02:23:09.799 --> 02:23:14.280
our organism any other tracker type of technology, that we
2237
02:23:14.319 --> 02:23:17.840
would still own our data as individuals and we would
2238
02:23:17.879 --> 02:23:20.000
get to decide what to do with it. So we
2239
02:23:20.040 --> 02:23:23.840
would decide if we want to share the information, contribute
2240
02:23:23.840 --> 02:23:28.760
it to scientific research, contributed to medical organizations that would
2241
02:23:28.920 --> 02:23:34.520
use it to help patients manage your cure prevent their diseases.
2242
02:23:34.799 --> 02:23:36.959
We would be able to do that, but we would
2243
02:23:36.959 --> 02:23:39.840
have the authority to decide as individuals where it goes.
2244
02:23:39.879 --> 02:23:41.959
So if we don't want it to go to third
2245
02:23:41.959 --> 02:23:45.319
party data brokers who would sell the data to health
2246
02:23:45.319 --> 02:23:49.200
insurance companies that could raise our premiums, or that would
2247
02:23:49.479 --> 02:23:52.760
publish the data online and blackmail us with it. Oh,
2248
02:23:52.879 --> 02:23:55.600
your friends will know that you have this health condition
2249
02:23:55.719 --> 02:23:58.040
unless you pay us money. So we wouldn't want those
2250
02:23:58.120 --> 02:24:02.239
kinds of uses. And I think the individual autonomy again,
2251
02:24:02.360 --> 02:24:07.360
that freedom to decide, that is the key concept here.
2252
02:24:07.479 --> 02:24:08.959
Would you agree.
2253
02:24:08.920 --> 02:24:10.799
And and this is one of the things where I
2254
02:24:10.840 --> 02:24:13.600
strongly need to disagree with you actually, And this would
2255
02:24:13.639 --> 02:24:18.239
be sort of a topic of much further discussion because
2256
02:24:18.280 --> 02:24:21.959
I think once we have because you you you raise
2257
02:24:21.959 --> 02:24:25.399
the issues sort of then increasing the cost of the
2258
02:24:25.719 --> 02:24:28.399
insurance system if things go wrong now, but if we
2259
02:24:28.440 --> 02:24:31.159
have got a universal healthcare system, this wouldn't have to
2260
02:24:31.159 --> 02:24:35.120
be the case. They would have to be cap And
2261
02:24:35.319 --> 02:24:39.760
in addition, if like everyone's benefit, if things are such,
2262
02:24:39.840 --> 02:24:42.520
if things are arranged, that that basically our digital data
2263
02:24:42.559 --> 02:24:47.840
get collected and analy debt collected by by political institution,
2264
02:24:48.040 --> 02:24:53.959
and that's our means for paying for the universal healthcare system.
2265
02:24:54.280 --> 02:24:57.120
Then basically you know there shouldn't be the drop out option.
2266
02:24:57.479 --> 02:25:01.440
We would have to be legally and forced to basically
2267
02:25:01.479 --> 02:25:04.479
share our personalized health data as a way of paying
2268
02:25:04.520 --> 02:25:08.479
taxes as a way of paying for our universal healthcare system.
2269
02:25:08.879 --> 02:25:11.280
That in that case, such a system would have to
2270
02:25:11.319 --> 02:25:15.040
be in place, And of course there are many problematic
2271
02:25:15.120 --> 02:25:18.280
legal political issues related to that, and I'm in the
2272
02:25:18.319 --> 02:25:20.920
current system. I wouldn't want to share that, you know,
2273
02:25:20.959 --> 02:25:23.399
I understand I wouldn't want to share that issues that
2274
02:25:24.159 --> 02:25:26.799
we need to make sure that humans don't have sufficient
2275
02:25:26.840 --> 02:25:29.159
access to this data. For example, we need to have
2276
02:25:29.200 --> 02:25:33.319
them primarily being accessed and by algorithm so that it's
2277
02:25:33.440 --> 02:25:37.559
like humans will always abuse and use them against someone.
2278
02:25:37.760 --> 02:25:40.319
But if we take it as a way of paying taxes,
2279
02:25:40.399 --> 02:25:43.799
and that would be enormously helpful way, then the money
2280
02:25:43.840 --> 02:25:46.520
wouldn't from our digital data, wouldn't make the CEOs of
2281
02:25:46.600 --> 02:25:49.760
big tech companies richer, or the wouldn't promote the authorit
2282
02:25:50.319 --> 02:25:54.600
terian rule of political Chinese leaders. That it would actually
2283
02:25:54.719 --> 02:25:58.479
promote the quality of a universal healthcare system. And if
2284
02:25:58.520 --> 02:26:01.680
everyone provided the data, then at the same time our
2285
02:26:01.760 --> 02:26:04.280
research in the theater would become better. If there was
2286
02:26:04.319 --> 02:26:07.520
not such a drop out option, and I've got several
2287
02:26:07.559 --> 02:26:11.280
other arguments in favor of that, but so this is so,
2288
02:26:11.479 --> 02:26:13.319
this is one of the elements where I would have
2289
02:26:13.360 --> 02:26:17.000
to disagree with you, and I understand your position, but
2290
02:26:17.120 --> 02:26:20.079
I think if there's a general shift, I think we
2291
02:26:20.159 --> 02:26:22.520
would have to see how basically as a way of
2292
02:26:22.520 --> 02:26:27.000
paying taxes, of providing, basically finding things, this universal has consistem.
2293
02:26:27.000 --> 02:26:30.760
Yes, this is I think a key difference, and I
2294
02:26:30.760 --> 02:26:36.479
think it stems from different understandings of privacy as well,
2295
02:26:36.959 --> 02:26:40.280
including between the United States and Europe. So in the
2296
02:26:40.399 --> 02:26:44.360
United States, a major component of privacy is privacy from
2297
02:26:44.399 --> 02:26:49.280
the government, or privacy from large institutions as well, And
2298
02:26:49.360 --> 02:26:54.079
for a lot of Americans now, large corporations are beginning
2299
02:26:54.079 --> 02:26:57.120
to be seen with a similar level of concern as
2300
02:26:57.159 --> 02:27:03.680
governments when it comes to core individuals or imposing actions
2301
02:27:03.760 --> 02:27:08.120
or consequences upon individuals that those individuals consider illegitimate, Whereas
2302
02:27:08.159 --> 02:27:13.159
in a European context, I think you would agree that
2303
02:27:13.159 --> 02:27:16.719
that kind of disclosure of data for the commercial gain
2304
02:27:16.760 --> 02:27:21.719
of large corporations would largely at least be inappropriate, but
2305
02:27:21.799 --> 02:27:25.360
you would be less concerned about it within a political
2306
02:27:25.399 --> 02:27:28.239
system that's overseen by representatives of the people.
2307
02:27:30.079 --> 02:27:33.079
No, we've got extreme that's why we've got GDPR. We've
2308
02:27:33.079 --> 02:27:37.200
got extremely strong privacy laws. I mean, for example, in Germany,
2309
02:27:37.239 --> 02:27:44.399
someone's got received the COVID vaccine sixty times because he
2310
02:27:44.600 --> 02:27:47.280
was able to do so because there's no because for
2311
02:27:47.399 --> 02:27:51.200
privacy reason, there is no universal system in which basically
2312
02:27:51.479 --> 02:27:54.159
his vaccines they are being generally they're covered by the
2313
02:27:54.239 --> 02:27:58.360
universal asca system, and no one saves the data for
2314
02:27:58.360 --> 02:28:01.600
privacy reasons. Though he was able to had sixty shots
2315
02:28:01.639 --> 02:28:04.000
of the vaccine, which is you know, and and no,
2316
02:28:04.159 --> 02:28:09.280
privacy is extremely important. But the reason why I would
2317
02:28:09.280 --> 02:28:14.120
suggest an alternative way of dealing is is firstly, in
2318
02:28:14.239 --> 02:28:17.000
order if we actually want to deal with even the
2319
02:28:17.120 --> 02:28:22.479
rare diseases, the more comprehensive our our information is, the
2320
02:28:22.520 --> 02:28:26.559
better it is. It promotes the quality of the research.
2321
02:28:27.280 --> 02:28:32.440
And secondly, the more data we have, the more people,
2322
02:28:37.040 --> 02:28:40.280
so it promotes the quality of the research. And and
2323
02:28:40.360 --> 02:28:43.079
then and and that would be undermined if people had
2324
02:28:43.120 --> 02:28:45.920
the drop out option. It's basically you know, the rich
2325
02:28:46.040 --> 02:28:49.639
dropping out some people who can afford that, and but
2326
02:28:49.719 --> 02:28:54.399
that undermines again we need comprehensive digital health data and
2327
02:28:54.680 --> 02:28:57.639
these and the Chinese are better in getting them then
2328
02:28:57.760 --> 02:29:00.399
in the United States, and the United States ends on
2329
02:29:00.920 --> 02:29:03.680
because of the privacy saying on the autonomous decision. That's
2330
02:29:03.680 --> 02:29:06.559
why I don't think it's such an efficient way to
2331
02:29:06.600 --> 02:29:09.360
deal with it. To actually being prepared for the future,
2332
02:29:09.639 --> 02:29:14.040
such a comprehensive data collection would be necessary. And the
2333
02:29:14.040 --> 02:29:16.559
more data we have, the more reliable the data gets,
2334
02:29:16.600 --> 02:29:19.440
and as a consequence we can sell the data better,
2335
02:29:19.479 --> 02:29:21.479
we can make more money and as a concept, we've
2336
02:29:21.520 --> 02:29:25.000
got more money to increase the quality of our universality system.
2337
02:29:25.159 --> 02:29:28.520
That's a very short version of something which I will
2338
02:29:28.559 --> 02:29:30.719
spell out in more detail, which I spelled that in
2339
02:29:30.719 --> 02:29:33.079
that We've Always Been Cybors book and even more detail
2340
02:29:33.079 --> 02:29:35.760
also in the eurou Truent Humanism book. But that's something
2341
02:29:35.760 --> 02:29:40.000
I'm extremely interested in, anti aging and increasing health span
2342
02:29:40.120 --> 02:29:43.399
and I co authored a book for example with a
2343
02:29:43.520 --> 02:29:48.479
band client Gumku, who's the president of the German Anti
2344
02:29:48.559 --> 02:29:53.000
Aging Society, is running he's cognizing the biggest anti aging
2345
02:29:53.040 --> 02:29:58.879
and plastic surgery event annual event which takes place in Monaco,
2346
02:29:58.959 --> 02:30:03.440
Monte Carlo and with like fifteen thousand practice eighteen thousand
2347
02:30:03.440 --> 02:30:06.799
practitioners participating every year, and he was right now with
2348
02:30:06.959 --> 02:30:10.559
Ilia and they were now in Davos as well. He
2349
02:30:10.680 --> 02:30:13.639
was now in Davos in order to bring it to
2350
02:30:13.920 --> 02:30:17.159
you know, stressing the relevance of increasing the health span
2351
02:30:17.319 --> 02:30:20.000
to the world leaders. And that's that's a wonderful thing.
2352
02:30:20.079 --> 02:30:23.559
And so yeah, Band and ive Brote, we called it
2353
02:30:23.639 --> 02:30:26.799
a book which was published in German with Penguin Random House.
2354
02:30:26.840 --> 02:30:29.159
It was a proper public outrage book which was already
2355
02:30:29.159 --> 02:30:33.639
translated in South Korea and others. And so now this
2356
02:30:33.760 --> 02:30:36.200
is something which is very close to my heart and
2357
02:30:36.559 --> 02:30:40.479
sort of the way I'm suggesting. And yeah, Dida is
2358
02:30:40.559 --> 02:30:42.680
doing a great job in that field too, and we
2359
02:30:42.840 --> 02:30:45.319
need to get together in order to develop some proper
2360
02:30:45.319 --> 02:30:48.799
policy making in order to promote that kind of research.
2361
02:30:49.959 --> 02:30:53.479
Yes, and I think this would be a great subject
2362
02:30:53.520 --> 02:30:58.200
for another in depth conversation. For now on this subject,
2363
02:30:58.280 --> 02:31:01.440
I will share the Virtual Enlightenment salon that we held
2364
02:31:01.520 --> 02:31:05.840
with Dger Cournell on big data, AI and longevity in
2365
02:31:06.000 --> 02:31:10.479
twenty twenty one, where Day also provided his proposals. Now,
2366
02:31:10.520 --> 02:31:14.120
one of his proposals with regard to any let's say,
2367
02:31:14.120 --> 02:31:17.280
mandatory sharing of health information is that it would be
2368
02:31:17.319 --> 02:31:22.440
anonymized so that institutions would not know which individual it
2369
02:31:22.520 --> 02:31:26.000
came from. And I think the reason for that, and
2370
02:31:26.120 --> 02:31:29.399
of course I would support that kind of safeguard would
2371
02:31:29.399 --> 02:31:33.680
be to prevent adverse consequences being taken by the system
2372
02:31:33.719 --> 02:31:37.920
against the individual for having a health condition. And let's
2373
02:31:37.920 --> 02:31:40.159
suppose it is the kind of system where there is
2374
02:31:40.319 --> 02:31:46.280
universal healthcare, where there is at least a general level
2375
02:31:46.680 --> 02:31:50.559
of concern about applying that information wisely. But let's say
2376
02:31:50.559 --> 02:31:54.920
there's an individual within that system. Hypothetically, he's seventy five
2377
02:31:55.040 --> 02:31:58.920
years old. He feels like he's still in sufficiently good
2378
02:31:58.959 --> 02:32:03.120
health to work, but he has diabetes and high blood pressure,
2379
02:32:03.159 --> 02:32:07.319
and he thinks, well, he still has enough value to contribute.
2380
02:32:07.360 --> 02:32:11.559
Maybe he's a civil servant in some position of responsibility.
2381
02:32:11.639 --> 02:32:14.920
Maybe he's the CEO of a company. He doesn't want
2382
02:32:14.959 --> 02:32:18.600
to let go, he doesn't want to just become a patient.
2383
02:32:18.680 --> 02:32:23.399
He wants to continue to work. But in the system,
2384
02:32:23.680 --> 02:32:28.600
his information is disclosed, and so the government would know,
2385
02:32:28.719 --> 02:32:31.680
his employers would know that he has diabetes and high
2386
02:32:31.680 --> 02:32:34.520
blood pressure, and they might have a different opinion. They
2387
02:32:34.600 --> 02:32:37.520
might think, well, look, you're seventy five years old, you
2388
02:32:37.559 --> 02:32:40.479
have these health conditions, it's time for you to take
2389
02:32:40.479 --> 02:32:44.719
a step back. And for that person, that may be
2390
02:32:45.360 --> 02:32:49.520
a terrible blow, because that work, or that position, or
2391
02:32:49.520 --> 02:32:53.159
that level of responsibility might be what keeps him going,
2392
02:32:53.559 --> 02:32:57.639
might be what prevents him from lapsing into a state
2393
02:32:58.079 --> 02:33:02.000
that's more dependent, that's less healthy, if he loses his
2394
02:33:02.120 --> 02:33:05.479
sense of purpose. So that's an area where I would
2395
02:33:05.479 --> 02:33:08.200
be worried. And that's just one of numerous possible examples,
2396
02:33:08.399 --> 02:33:10.559
But that's an area where I would be worried. If
2397
02:33:10.600 --> 02:33:13.719
the institution knows that the data came from you, the
2398
02:33:13.840 --> 02:33:19.440
specific individual, rather than just having some anonymized idea associated
2399
02:33:19.479 --> 02:33:24.479
with the data. That could lead to some unintended consequences.
2400
02:33:25.319 --> 02:33:35.159
Imagine, however, how relevant the interconnections between environmental influences, lifestyle
2401
02:33:35.239 --> 02:33:38.360
and so on, in order to really follow up the
2402
02:33:38.520 --> 02:33:44.840
entire range of implications it has genes, how work, how stress,
2403
02:33:44.959 --> 02:33:50.840
how personal life, how environmental influence actually have consequences for
2404
02:33:51.000 --> 02:33:55.399
you know which diseases, you get the quality of life.
2405
02:33:55.639 --> 02:33:58.360
That's why I think it is extremely important to have
2406
02:33:58.399 --> 02:34:02.879
that personalized over time, over the lifetime. And this is
2407
02:34:03.000 --> 02:34:07.000
would would generate so much more information, which is absolutely
2408
02:34:07.000 --> 02:34:10.719
fundamental for engaging research, and that's why I would I
2409
02:34:10.760 --> 02:34:13.559
would take a different sentence on that issue, being fully
2410
02:34:13.559 --> 02:34:15.120
aware of the challenges you mentioned.
2411
02:34:15.159 --> 02:34:21.799
Obviously, Yes, thank you Stefan for that answer. And we're
2412
02:34:21.840 --> 02:34:24.920
going to start bringing this discussion to a conclusion. We
2413
02:34:25.000 --> 02:34:28.920
have a little bit more flexibility today. I'm hoping to
2414
02:34:29.559 --> 02:34:33.200
give art Ramone the chance to ask a question, and
2415
02:34:33.239 --> 02:34:37.840
then I will ask a question that hopefully will try
2416
02:34:37.879 --> 02:34:41.000
to bring all of these threads together. But art Ramon,
2417
02:34:41.120 --> 02:34:41.840
please go ahead.
2418
02:34:44.760 --> 02:34:46.799
Yeah. Here in the States, there's a lot of.
2419
02:34:48.200 --> 02:34:52.639
Talk of you know, reduced fertility, and here there's a
2420
02:34:52.680 --> 02:34:55.440
lot of problems with you know, women choosing the bear,
2421
02:34:56.639 --> 02:34:59.239
a lot of conflict between the sexes.
2422
02:35:00.280 --> 02:35:02.920
You know, guys or pat sport bros.
2423
02:35:03.000 --> 02:35:06.600
Going to different countries to find women, and some people
2424
02:35:06.639 --> 02:35:08.760
who are the red colors who just said the hell
2425
02:35:08.799 --> 02:35:09.200
with women?
2426
02:35:11.200 --> 02:35:13.040
Is that a thing in Europe or is that just
2427
02:35:13.040 --> 02:35:19.520
like an American thing? I think.
2428
02:35:21.600 --> 02:35:21.680
So.
2429
02:35:22.040 --> 02:35:25.399
Rape culture, hookup culture is pretty big now and sort
2430
02:35:25.399 --> 02:35:27.479
of in the in the United States. I mean, I've
2431
02:35:27.479 --> 02:35:31.040
got I've got a sense of of of both I
2432
02:35:31.159 --> 02:35:34.639
teachers use in the American institutions. I get a sense
2433
02:35:34.680 --> 02:35:39.000
of what's going on in the United States and and
2434
02:35:39.239 --> 02:35:43.079
you know, you know, mostly living in central central Europe,
2435
02:35:44.600 --> 02:35:48.319
I still see difference as actually concerning the attitude to
2436
02:35:48.479 --> 02:35:53.559
its sex from from America is such a big country.
2437
02:35:53.600 --> 02:35:55.920
That's why it's so difficult. I think sort of it
2438
02:35:55.959 --> 02:35:58.799
does make it different. We've got like many Mid States
2439
02:35:58.920 --> 02:36:04.360
students coming from a more you know, conservative background or
2440
02:36:04.360 --> 02:36:07.120
Notre Dame students. But then there are also like people
2441
02:36:07.120 --> 02:36:10.799
coming from California and really California and sort of that
2442
02:36:11.520 --> 02:36:16.120
tech culture seems to be particularly hedonistic, seems and and
2443
02:36:16.719 --> 02:36:21.159
this is and we don't have that so much actually
2444
02:36:22.239 --> 02:36:25.120
in in in Europe. But then you get to see,
2445
02:36:25.200 --> 02:36:28.879
you know, then you get to Burkhine in Berlin, Temple
2446
02:36:28.879 --> 02:36:33.600
of Dionysus, where anything, you know, anything, you will see
2447
02:36:33.600 --> 02:36:36.559
things you could see probably no other club in the world.
2448
02:36:36.680 --> 02:36:39.799
So but that's Burkhine. That's why a kid can these
2449
02:36:39.799 --> 02:36:42.440
two clubs in in Berlin. But otherwise sort of the
2450
02:36:42.520 --> 02:36:46.600
lift culture is a very different one from from the
2451
02:36:46.719 --> 02:36:50.680
United States, and we would have to look at and
2452
02:36:50.680 --> 02:36:54.680
and when making such statements, I would say, yeah, it
2453
02:36:54.719 --> 02:36:58.239
does apply that sort of this general on a general level,
2454
02:36:58.319 --> 02:37:02.200
there is something more and then this utilitarian and there's
2455
02:37:02.239 --> 02:37:09.239
a different because of because of the underlying ethical systems. However, however,
2456
02:37:09.399 --> 02:37:12.600
one here one also needs needs to take clocal or
2457
02:37:12.760 --> 02:37:17.079
like very specific local situations in consideration or whether it's
2458
02:37:17.079 --> 02:37:21.719
Ohio or whether it is it is California. So but
2459
02:37:21.840 --> 02:37:24.559
I can see from from what I hear from from
2460
02:37:24.600 --> 02:37:26.719
my students in particular, there I get a you know,
2461
02:37:26.760 --> 02:37:29.159
I've got many advises or tell me stuff and so
2462
02:37:29.200 --> 02:37:33.360
on and and so, so I know it is it
2463
02:37:33.479 --> 02:37:36.360
is still it is a different it is there. It
2464
02:37:36.520 --> 02:37:39.840
is a different culture. In many parts of the United States.
2465
02:37:39.840 --> 02:37:49.079
There's much more of an in certain respect, in certain respects,
2466
02:37:49.159 --> 02:37:53.719
more than more than in specially specifically like a spring
2467
02:37:53.799 --> 02:37:57.479
break that's very heat in this enterprise. There you let go, well,
2468
02:37:57.559 --> 02:38:00.879
you're various, otherwise you act differently. We don't have that
2469
02:38:01.000 --> 02:38:03.440
supreme rak culture. You know. We have it, you know
2470
02:38:03.719 --> 02:38:07.399
in the university, but like at normal institutions in Europe,
2471
02:38:07.399 --> 02:38:10.920
you wouldn't have that culture. That's that's not something which
2472
02:38:11.079 --> 02:38:15.000
like students at our universities would normally do, yeah, the
2473
02:38:15.040 --> 02:38:18.959
American university, but but in in regular non American university
2474
02:38:19.040 --> 02:38:22.920
in Europe such a thing doesn't occur. So there are
2475
02:38:23.079 --> 02:38:24.040
some differences.
2476
02:38:25.280 --> 02:38:29.200
What about economic I mean, I hear I say, younger
2477
02:38:29.200 --> 02:38:32.520
generations just can't afford to have children. Is that the
2478
02:38:32.559 --> 02:38:39.000
same in Europe? For their population decline, the birth the
2479
02:38:39.000 --> 02:38:40.399
birth rate decline.
2480
02:38:41.159 --> 02:38:45.239
The first rate decline is enormous. We've got a reproductive
2481
02:38:45.520 --> 02:38:48.079
rate in Germany of one point five. In Austria's one
2482
02:38:48.079 --> 02:38:53.159
point four. In Italy is one point two. It's terrible.
2483
02:38:53.440 --> 02:38:57.600
We've got people working in Poland, I know regular in Poland,
2484
02:38:57.680 --> 02:39:01.319
they you know, they work three jobs and just to
2485
02:39:01.360 --> 02:39:04.319
get by, to be able to afford housing. So that's
2486
02:39:04.040 --> 02:39:07.760
that's currently sort of in the in the past five years,
2487
02:39:07.760 --> 02:39:10.840
in the beginning with COVID and then the various wars
2488
02:39:10.920 --> 02:39:14.879
which happen and now the various conflicts that has cost
2489
02:39:14.920 --> 02:39:19.520
and you know, young people are really being extremely overwhelmed
2490
02:39:19.559 --> 02:39:22.440
and very and and I can see that. I think
2491
02:39:22.479 --> 02:39:26.120
that's very similar actually to U to the United States,
2492
02:39:26.120 --> 02:39:32.479
and that that leads to that people tending towards some
2493
02:39:32.559 --> 02:39:38.040
certain extremes. And that division is, as we can see,
2494
02:39:38.200 --> 02:39:42.079
is extremely strong in the United States. It is not
2495
02:39:42.360 --> 02:39:47.319
yet so strong in the in Central Europe. But if
2496
02:39:47.360 --> 02:39:50.120
we don't do anything about it, we're moving into that direction.
2497
02:39:50.200 --> 02:39:53.680
And I'm and and and and that political division towards
2498
02:39:53.719 --> 02:39:56.879
the extremes in the end, they will lead to to
2499
02:39:57.040 --> 02:40:00.399
civil war. And that is what I'm the It's not
2500
02:40:00.559 --> 02:40:04.799
good for society. And that's why i'm you know, that's
2501
02:40:05.040 --> 02:40:07.719
one of the things I care about immensely, and I'm
2502
02:40:07.799 --> 02:40:11.280
extremely scared about. And that's and I in particular, the
2503
02:40:11.319 --> 02:40:14.360
class gets identify sort of if those things, they've got
2504
02:40:14.399 --> 02:40:17.280
the only right thing to answer. That's what that's some
2505
02:40:17.440 --> 02:40:20.000
sort of the basis for my critique of essentialism. So
2506
02:40:20.040 --> 02:40:22.879
we need to talk, We need to find covent ground
2507
02:40:23.200 --> 02:40:26.559
and acknowledge the relevance of the other put ourselves into
2508
02:40:26.600 --> 02:40:29.559
the eyes of the others, making understand if you don't
2509
02:40:29.559 --> 02:40:32.600
share them, but at least make you understand the arguments
2510
02:40:32.639 --> 02:40:35.520
they are using and finding to finding a way to
2511
02:40:35.879 --> 02:40:41.680
peacefully live together, because it's not a we're really in
2512
02:40:42.159 --> 02:40:44.840
times which are particularly overwhelming for young people here.
2513
02:40:46.079 --> 02:40:53.000
Yes, indeed, and this actually helps to bring the discussion
2514
02:40:53.079 --> 02:40:58.319
around to my question and attempting to unite all of
2515
02:40:58.360 --> 02:41:05.840
these threads because you mentioned this increasing conflict between the extremes,
2516
02:41:05.879 --> 02:41:11.079
this increasing polarization is not good for anybody and I've
2517
02:41:11.120 --> 02:41:14.959
also observed before that it seems to me a lot
2518
02:41:15.000 --> 02:41:19.319
of the children of a lot of the people of
2519
02:41:19.360 --> 02:41:23.280
the American left are like the disaffected children of the
2520
02:41:23.319 --> 02:41:27.680
people on the American right. Essentially, they're operating within the
2521
02:41:27.760 --> 02:41:32.879
same framework, but they're rebelling against it by trying to
2522
02:41:32.959 --> 02:41:38.000
be the exact opposite and amplifying those extremes. Also, the
2523
02:41:38.040 --> 02:41:42.000
spring break culture that you mentioned, the idea that in
2524
02:41:42.040 --> 02:41:45.200
the United States, a lot of the time people have
2525
02:41:45.280 --> 02:41:49.520
to operate within these very rigid institutions, like American corporate
2526
02:41:49.600 --> 02:41:55.639
norms are very rigid, and or say, in American schools,
2527
02:41:55.639 --> 02:41:58.639
it's more often that they're very rules based rather than
2528
02:41:58.719 --> 02:42:03.200
principles based, and when people get a break from that,
2529
02:42:04.239 --> 02:42:08.840
they let go. And I don't do that because I'm
2530
02:42:08.879 --> 02:42:12.319
not really of the same culture. I've always been astonished
2531
02:42:12.360 --> 02:42:15.079
by how a lot of people in the United States
2532
02:42:15.440 --> 02:42:19.159
tended to do that. But it's this idea that there's
2533
02:42:19.200 --> 02:42:23.280
one extreme that's so rigid it's unsustainable, and so people,
2534
02:42:23.319 --> 02:42:27.319
whenever they get an official break from that extreme, tend
2535
02:42:27.399 --> 02:42:31.479
to go way in the other direction. But if they
2536
02:42:31.719 --> 02:42:35.120
like being way in the other direction too much, they
2537
02:42:35.200 --> 02:42:38.200
start making that a part of their identity and kind
2538
02:42:38.239 --> 02:42:42.639
of clashing with the rigid other extreme, and that may
2539
02:42:42.639 --> 02:42:47.479
be driving the polarization. So the first part of my
2540
02:42:47.600 --> 02:42:51.799
question is how do you think that can be overcome,
2541
02:42:51.840 --> 02:42:55.440
particularly in the American cultural context, because America is still
2542
02:42:55.440 --> 02:42:58.840
a global hedgemon, and what happens in the United States,
2543
02:42:58.840 --> 02:43:04.559
for better or for worse, gets essentially reverberated throughout the
2544
02:43:04.559 --> 02:43:07.360
rest of the world, including in Europe, but in other
2545
02:43:07.399 --> 02:43:10.680
parts of the world as well. But also I'm wondering
2546
02:43:10.799 --> 02:43:15.360
how that relates to the distinction in your view between
2547
02:43:15.879 --> 02:43:21.639
transhumanism and posthumanism, because some people we're asking, for instance,
2548
02:43:21.680 --> 02:43:26.360
Alan or Daniel Tweed, whether you're using the term posthuman
2549
02:43:26.399 --> 02:43:30.440
as a super set or subset of transhuman and my
2550
02:43:30.600 --> 02:43:36.159
understanding is it's neither, because you characterize this critical posthumanism
2551
02:43:36.680 --> 02:43:41.200
as being very much a hard left type of discipline
2552
02:43:41.680 --> 02:43:48.200
that euro transhumanism disagrees with quite strongly in various respects,
2553
02:43:48.239 --> 02:43:54.200
including the cancel culture aspects or the aspects that people
2554
02:43:54.719 --> 02:43:59.200
can't fully make autonomous decisions if they're in a certain position,
2555
02:43:59.319 --> 02:44:02.479
like there's an age gap or a financial gap. So
2556
02:44:04.120 --> 02:44:09.719
in terms of what euro transhumanism can offer, that would
2557
02:44:10.079 --> 02:44:13.799
transcend or overcome what I think is a kind of
2558
02:44:14.479 --> 02:44:20.239
reflexive left wing reaction, a reaction against the reactionaries. If
2559
02:44:20.280 --> 02:44:24.159
you would that the critical posthumanism and other left wing
2560
02:44:24.200 --> 02:44:27.520
strains in the United States espouse, I'd be curious as
2561
02:44:27.520 --> 02:44:29.959
to your thoughts and what some potential solutions might be.
2562
02:44:30.799 --> 02:44:34.559
Yeah, No, that was a wonderful summary. Actually, what I'm
2563
02:44:35.040 --> 02:44:37.399
sort of I've had in mind and when I was
2564
02:44:37.440 --> 02:44:41.520
trying to present them. Yes, critical put firstly the comment
2565
02:44:41.559 --> 02:44:46.760
sort of, yeah, posthumanism. Critical posthumanism is a specific stance,
2566
02:44:46.840 --> 02:44:50.520
particularly shared in general, the stance from the left widely
2567
02:44:50.600 --> 02:44:56.319
impraised at universities. There are some radical posthumanists who even
2568
02:44:56.399 --> 02:45:00.399
say they would they would propose a line of reasoning like, look,
2569
02:45:01.040 --> 02:45:04.879
global warming is the greatest danger. Humans are the thriving
2570
02:45:05.040 --> 02:45:08.360
factor of global warming. As a consequence, you know, we
2571
02:45:08.399 --> 02:45:12.319
have an moral obligation not to give birth to anyone
2572
02:45:12.440 --> 02:45:16.680
at anti natalism who humans are the cancer of the earth.
2573
02:45:16.760 --> 02:45:20.639
That's that's the most radical stands in that perspective. And
2574
02:45:20.799 --> 02:45:24.680
I don't even engage with people and you know, such
2575
02:45:25.600 --> 02:45:28.840
lines of reason because they're really absurd, and some people
2576
02:45:28.879 --> 02:45:34.799
have basically you know, I have. I was at a
2577
02:45:34.920 --> 02:45:40.360
keynote with people from that field where they were keynote
2578
02:45:40.360 --> 02:45:42.719
as well, and they were telling me, oh, look here's
2579
02:45:42.760 --> 02:45:46.040
the rich white man who needs to die out first.
2580
02:45:46.079 --> 02:45:48.760
That this was their way of treating me. And I'm just,
2581
02:45:48.879 --> 02:45:51.879
you know, this is and that's exactly the same type
2582
02:45:51.920 --> 02:45:55.840
of extremism. And while I'm you know, I do, I
2583
02:45:55.920 --> 02:46:01.360
do acknowledge you know, racial discrimination, structural issues, and sexism
2584
02:46:01.399 --> 02:46:04.440
and speeches, you know, And I think I just acknowledge that,
2585
02:46:04.559 --> 02:46:08.559
and I think such any type of illegative discrimination is problematic.
2586
02:46:08.600 --> 02:46:11.440
We need to deal with it. But despite that, you know,
2587
02:46:11.760 --> 02:46:15.319
just by being any critical of their approach. And I'm
2588
02:46:15.360 --> 02:46:20.239
already the evil, evil white man from Europe now. And
2589
02:46:20.479 --> 02:46:25.440
this is exactly the same kind this polarity. They claim
2590
02:46:25.600 --> 02:46:29.079
to have the truth and then the former understanding of
2591
02:46:29.159 --> 02:46:32.840
the religious fundamentalist traditions they ate language of the truth.
2592
02:46:32.959 --> 02:46:38.239
And this, you know, this discrimination based on claiming any
2593
02:46:38.280 --> 02:46:40.680
type of truth is we need to lighten the truth,
2594
02:46:40.840 --> 02:46:44.040
no we we that is that that is the goal.
2595
02:46:44.120 --> 02:46:47.319
We need to make people realize. Now, neither you nor
2596
02:46:47.399 --> 02:46:51.040
anyone else you know, I can't. I will argue against
2597
02:46:51.079 --> 02:46:54.360
you no matter what you stand for, and and any
2598
02:46:54.520 --> 02:46:58.719
any position has strong challenges, weaknesses you can't respond with
2599
02:46:58.920 --> 02:47:03.600
deal with. Once you that that, the conflicts and the
2600
02:47:03.639 --> 02:47:07.879
polarities come about with come about on the basis of
2601
02:47:08.079 --> 02:47:13.399
you claiming that you've got a fundamental inside the truth
2602
02:47:13.520 --> 02:47:16.639
which the others don't have that turns the others into monsters.
2603
02:47:16.920 --> 02:47:20.360
And no matter whether you come from the left perspective
2604
02:47:20.399 --> 02:47:24.399
of the monsters or you come from the perspective of
2605
02:47:24.520 --> 02:47:28.639
the lack of fundamental religious fundamentalists, it's always the others
2606
02:47:28.639 --> 02:47:31.040
who are the monsters who you need to be targeted.
2607
02:47:31.399 --> 02:47:35.040
And so the goal is for me, I'm trying to
2608
02:47:35.079 --> 02:47:39.079
show now we need to move away from truths. We
2609
02:47:39.159 --> 02:47:43.319
need to from any objective fundamentalist way of truth. As
2610
02:47:43.319 --> 02:47:47.079
I explained before, of course I subscribe to scientific truths.
2611
02:47:47.079 --> 02:47:49.760
You know, that's not that, but they're not you know,
2612
02:47:50.559 --> 02:47:53.600
that's a different They don't even can't claim they are
2613
02:47:53.680 --> 02:47:58.120
context dependent, even they are. But once you start in,
2614
02:47:58.159 --> 02:48:00.920
particularly with moral truths, and you're saying you know, this
2615
02:48:01.040 --> 02:48:04.280
is a valid forever and at all times, then then
2616
02:48:04.360 --> 02:48:07.799
that will lead to conflict and we need to undermine,
2617
02:48:07.879 --> 02:48:11.360
we need to show that this is a that you know,
2618
02:48:11.479 --> 02:48:16.559
any of their any of their approaches has leads to
2619
02:48:16.639 --> 02:48:20.000
the same kind of structural violence which they accuse their
2620
02:48:20.040 --> 02:48:24.680
opponent of, and that only happens as a part of
2621
02:48:24.719 --> 02:48:28.319
the reform and education system. You enter into the dialogue
2622
02:48:28.319 --> 02:48:31.239
and you you know, I let myself get confronted, and
2623
02:48:31.319 --> 02:48:34.840
you know, I stand up for that and I and
2624
02:48:34.959 --> 02:48:38.319
I'm aware of how people that actually attacked me from
2625
02:48:38.399 --> 02:48:42.319
it in universities who do have that type of extreme approach.
2626
02:48:44.680 --> 02:48:47.200
And I'm showing but you always need to remain stay
2627
02:48:47.239 --> 02:48:52.479
calm and be aware, understand you know what you're dealing with,
2628
02:48:52.719 --> 02:48:56.239
and show that the violence which they accuse others of
2629
02:48:56.360 --> 02:49:00.280
actually goes along with such an attitude. And so I
2630
02:49:00.319 --> 02:49:03.159
think I think the problem is related to anyone having
2631
02:49:03.159 --> 02:49:06.520
such fundamental truths drom be open to what the other says,
2632
02:49:07.760 --> 02:49:11.120
even if it's not always easy. It can be very difficult,
2633
02:49:11.399 --> 02:49:16.360
particularly when it concerns like very fundamental issues, like fundamental
2634
02:49:16.360 --> 02:49:19.680
issues what counts as a life worthy of living. No
2635
02:49:19.959 --> 02:49:23.399
embryo features beginning of life. But you know, if there's
2636
02:49:23.440 --> 02:49:27.639
like a significant amount of people who shares a different
2637
02:49:27.719 --> 02:49:31.760
understanding living in a liberal democracy, you know we need
2638
02:49:31.799 --> 02:49:35.959
to we need to respect the other We need to
2639
02:49:36.000 --> 02:49:40.680
allow the others. We must stop the violence because in
2640
02:49:40.719 --> 02:49:44.479
the end, you how why should you know better than
2641
02:49:44.680 --> 02:49:47.639
you know anyone else? As if like there was some
2642
02:49:47.760 --> 02:49:50.440
holy spirit which entered only in your minds but not
2643
02:49:50.520 --> 02:49:54.479
that of others, you know, And that is that is
2644
02:49:54.520 --> 02:49:58.680
a long part of a long process, and so understanding
2645
02:49:58.719 --> 02:50:02.200
the challenges which go along with truth. And the other
2646
02:50:02.280 --> 02:50:07.799
factor was the economic factor. That is, also when people
2647
02:50:07.920 --> 02:50:12.520
are financially well off, they have That's not always the case,
2648
02:50:12.559 --> 02:50:15.840
but you know, normally, once people are afraid of losing
2649
02:50:15.879 --> 02:50:21.079
a crown, of having not having a future, that then
2650
02:50:21.120 --> 02:50:24.440
they look for scapegoat. And the scapegoat are the others,
2651
02:50:24.760 --> 02:50:28.920
the refugees, the immigrants, the weak people in general, the monsters,
2652
02:50:29.600 --> 02:50:33.799
and whenever you're uncertain of yourself, that's that these are
2653
02:50:33.840 --> 02:50:36.479
the ones who you blame. And the more the worse
2654
02:50:36.559 --> 02:50:40.239
your economic system is, the tension will get stronger, and
2655
02:50:40.319 --> 02:50:43.120
it will also concern the middle class, and such a
2656
02:50:43.120 --> 02:50:45.520
system will end up in a civil war, you know,
2657
02:50:46.000 --> 02:50:48.920
and we none of us want wants to end up there.
2658
02:50:49.000 --> 02:50:52.200
So the economic factor, no matter what sort of the
2659
02:50:52.200 --> 02:50:56.239
intellectual reflections say, the economic factor always needs to be
2660
02:50:56.280 --> 02:51:00.760
taken into consideration, even though intellectually your firms thing. You know,
2661
02:51:00.799 --> 02:51:03.479
if it cannot be financed, it cannot be finance. You
2662
02:51:03.559 --> 02:51:06.360
need to make sure, you know, we all for a
2663
02:51:06.399 --> 02:51:09.120
certain type of lifestyle, we all need to have a
2664
02:51:09.159 --> 02:51:13.639
certain financial crownding. And that's something which many people. You know,
2665
02:51:15.760 --> 02:51:18.280
many people have good ideas on how to divide up
2666
02:51:18.319 --> 02:51:21.239
the money from the rich, but they don't know where
2667
02:51:21.239 --> 02:51:23.719
the money comes from. They mustn't forget that the money
2668
02:51:23.760 --> 02:51:27.479
needs to be earned first. And that's something which unfortunately
2669
02:51:27.600 --> 02:51:33.799
in many ideological, many many many academic circles, is unfortunately
2670
02:51:33.799 --> 02:51:36.559
to widely shared because they've never had experience on how
2671
02:51:36.639 --> 02:51:38.840
difficult it is to get the money to make money.
2672
02:51:39.520 --> 02:51:43.959
And and so the economic factor is one and relativizing
2673
02:51:44.079 --> 02:51:46.840
understanding that we all have. You know, we all have
2674
02:51:47.200 --> 02:51:51.479
contingent perspectives. And these are the two elements which I
2675
02:51:51.479 --> 02:51:54.239
would I would take care of most in order to
2676
02:51:54.559 --> 02:51:58.040
undermine sort of the increasing polarities which we're currently facing this.
2677
02:51:59.280 --> 02:52:02.520
Yes, thank you very much. Stuff on for that answer.
2678
02:52:02.600 --> 02:52:07.879
Thorough and nuanced as always, and I will point out
2679
02:52:08.239 --> 02:52:12.879
you mentioned lightening the truth. Perhaps that's another sense of
2680
02:52:13.600 --> 02:52:18.280
Enlightenment and the value of the discussions that we have
2681
02:52:18.479 --> 02:52:23.520
here at the Virtual Enlightenment Salons, essentially extending that spirit
2682
02:52:23.600 --> 02:52:27.879
of the original eighteenth century Age of Enlightenment as a
2683
02:52:28.000 --> 02:52:33.000
time of great philosophical discussions where a lot of previously
2684
02:52:33.040 --> 02:52:38.280
held truths were challenged and debated, and different people provided
2685
02:52:38.719 --> 02:52:42.479
different perspectives and tried to reason through issues which were
2686
02:52:42.680 --> 02:52:47.079
previously just accepted on faith or taken as dogma or
2687
02:52:47.600 --> 02:52:51.559
believed to be unchallengeable. And I do agree with you
2688
02:52:51.639 --> 02:52:56.479
strongly in this respect. Whenever there emerges a kind of
2689
02:52:56.479 --> 02:52:59.879
intellectual orthodoxy on the right, or on the left, or
2690
02:53:00.120 --> 02:53:03.600
or of any persuasion that states these ideas may not
2691
02:53:03.719 --> 02:53:06.879
be challenged, they may not be discussed, they just have
2692
02:53:06.959 --> 02:53:11.639
to be accepted as part of whatever intellectual package is
2693
02:53:11.680 --> 02:53:17.280
being offered, that becomes very dangerous because people's freedoms get restricted,
2694
02:53:17.319 --> 02:53:23.239
people get demonized, they become otherized, they become persecuted ultimately,
2695
02:53:23.719 --> 02:53:28.200
and that feeds into the polarization that feeds into the
2696
02:53:28.319 --> 02:53:33.479
likelihood of civil war. And I would say, first of all,
2697
02:53:33.520 --> 02:53:36.680
thank you very much for joining us. This turned out
2698
02:53:36.760 --> 02:53:42.639
to be an extremely thorough and far reaching conversation where
2699
02:53:42.639 --> 02:53:46.360
We had all of these threads from different realms of
2700
02:53:46.719 --> 02:53:51.280
human life and activity, and we were able to extend
2701
02:53:51.280 --> 02:53:54.040
them in parallel, weave them together. But this was of
2702
02:53:54.079 --> 02:53:58.319
course always an ongoing discussion, so hopefully we will have
2703
02:53:58.799 --> 02:54:04.920
many more to and for those who have stayed with us,
2704
02:54:05.319 --> 02:54:10.000
thank you so much. We will continue holding our Virtual
2705
02:54:10.079 --> 02:54:14.680
Enlightenment Salons, offering this caliber of discourse, so that we
2706
02:54:14.760 --> 02:54:18.000
may all live long and prosper
2707
02:54:43.319 --> 02:54:43.639
Mhm