Leading Through Kindness - Three Things with Ella d'Amato (NOTHS & True Global)

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when I went, to, I not on the High Street, and I sat in that Zach Cream, the first question I got asked was, are you from Oxford or cambridge?
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every time I've got these jobs, There's been enough people around me that have gone, she's gonna fail.
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That Jamie becomes an incredible motivator to not fail.
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Ultimately, I believe apart from setting a really clear vision and clear goals on what success looks like, the job of a CEO for me is to create an environment for the people around me to thrive If you hire brilliantly, whether that's for attitude or skill, and you've set that clear vision.
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If you are having to get hugely involved in the execution of what those people are doing, something is really wrong, Train your team to have difficult conversations.
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If you genuinely want a spirit of diversity and inclusion and you want different opinions, first teach them empathy.
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hello, I'm Jamie Mitchell and welcome to together's three Things where I get to sit down with exceptional founders and CEOs to explore their extraordinary careers and ask for their three things, three pieces of actionable advice you can implement in your business today.
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And for this episode, I'm back in the studio at True.
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and.
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Before I introduce our guest, I have been passed over a better description of true, after my last attempt at explaining it.
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But instead, I think it's much more appropriate than it becomes my first question.
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welcome, to the Hot seat, Ella damato.
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Ella is the managing director and CMO here at True.
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fascinating career we're gonna ha hear all about.
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but before we crack into that, welcome, nice to see you.
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Apparently this is your first
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It is, it is.
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And I'm a chatterbox Jamie, so this is gonna be fun.
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I have to say, I'm excited that it's your first podcast because it was also Adam Ballon first.
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Podcast last month.
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so it sort of goes, oh, right, all those people you've worked with over the past be going, oh, I'm gonna check in on this.
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And we get a few more followers.
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and actually for those of you who are new and those of you who aren't, please do follow, wherever you listen.
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It really does help us, continue to grow and, and, and build this podcast, which is good for altogether and everything we do there.
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End of my ad over to you.
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Do a better job of explaining True
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I actually think you did okay.
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To be fair.
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well thank you firstly for having me.
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I'm very grateful.
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true is an investment and in innovation firm and it's quite unique in the market.
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And I'll explain why.
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So there are three component parts of True.
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We have our private equity fund, which has assets under management of nearly a billion.
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Nearly a billion.
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Yes.
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so it's got quite large now.
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we are very lucky to have invested in some wonderful consumer businesses like the Twell Company, harsh, swift, rebel Bikes, sneak Energy.
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We also have here at True our venture capital fund.
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so that's more a business that are investing in seed up to Series A.
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So that might be a 200,000 pound check all the way up to 5 million.
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those businesses we've had are mined, we've got bleach, we've got mord, some are in Europe, some are in America, some are in the uk.
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There's
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I, I, I looked on the website and the venture team have invested in what I can only describe as a go-to guide of sort of contemporary brand names.
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I mean, it's, one after another are some really fascinating businesses, fascinating brands, and it's this juxtaposition between venture and private equity that I find you're not the only player in town in that regard.
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I know the guys are active, also a private equity and they have their venture arm, but pretty unique because the skills are so different.
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Yeah.
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the skills are the skills are different and I think where we are different again, is our innovation arm.
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So I think we are known for our private equity division and our VC division, and we are.
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Growing our innovation.
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So our innovation department, I always call them, which gets me into trouble, but I'll say it anyway, like a cooler McKinsey, which I'm probably not allowed to say, but there
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mean, as a
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McKinsey,
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I, it's not hard.
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so they are a hot hodgepodge of wonderful, honestly, some of the cleverest people you will ever meet.
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They constantly astound me with what comes out of their brains, mixture of really amazing analysts to people that have been clients, agency side consultants.
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So a real mix of people.
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And they work for your John Lewis', your Marks and Spencer's, your Warner Brothers, your Warner's, the big corporates, helping them with their innovation in their businesses.
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So this dynamic actually is what makes true, very, very special, I think, because we've got the three component
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What's the entire economy covered?
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Exactly.
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So when you step back and you think about it, You've got two entrepreneurial founders, Paul and Matt, that's set up true.
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they are the essence of what made true.
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True isn't something you write on a piece of paper and go, okay, we're gonna do VC p e and innovation and we're gonna somehow make all of these different things work.
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Culturally, it means you have to create an environment where all of those people thrive.
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Really difficult.
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Having a cool building helps
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Yeah.
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The house is very special.
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Please visit True house
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everybody.
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It is, you know, Soho House for True.
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Yeah.
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It's a place for the community and for our businesses to come and, and we can do things like this, right.
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We're very, very lucky to
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and you have kindly hosted many an event for altogether.
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So,
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Yes.
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Long way that lasts.
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Like it's a, we, it is a luxury to have this space,
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The innovation arm.
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Now th those relationships with big retailers And big consumer companies were always part of True's, special source as it were.
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I remember, I remember that from the very early days.
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and I guess it makes perfect sense.
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All the corporates, they, they, they're all sort of, how do I get a little bit of the magic of venture into my innovation?
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Is that mostly what's going on here?
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Is this a bit like, I don't know, the way founders factory works with corporates and, you know, are you connecting startups into the corporates or is this purely looking at corporates and.
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Giving them consulting advice on innovation
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It's a bit of both.
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So the firm sees roughly this flexes up and down year by year, around 3000 tech startups a year.
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That is a lot for the firm to see.
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Some of them are, we are seeing because they want investment in our VC arm.
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Some, we are actively going out and saying, you are doing something really interesting in ai or you are doing really interesting in social commerce, or you are doing something really interesting in how to stop shrinkage in companies.
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Right?
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So there's a bit of push and pull there
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And, and having that, those relationships and that those, those companies in your ecosystem, is part of the value add then
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Yeah, and it kind of works for all right.
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So some of them we will go on to invest in from a VC perspective, some of them, there isn't an investment relationship, but we say, hang on a minute, we're gonna put you into the Cowell company, a company that's in our private equity fund.
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We're gonna test it, we're gonna see if it works and if it works, where they're gonna take you to a Marks and Spencer's or, so this ecosystem is really
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I don't know how all of that gets priced and, and commercially done, but I love the concept and, and actually I, I suspect there's quite a lot of fluidity in the commercial side of because at its heart that that vision of the community, of people working together mm-hmm.
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Is, is, I know, very you have a, a dual Or at
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least you have, I think I have about 12 hats to be honest.
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And that's a wonderful thing.
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Yes.
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is it 12 hats?
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Because if you look back over your career, you basically got every hat covered.
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So, you know, they, they, they're gone.
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Can you take this hat now and can you take this hat now?
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what, what is the main part of your day job?
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So the main part of my job as managing director is I sit on a couple of the private equity boards.
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none of this venture capital board
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last.
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Yeah, It's on the PE side.
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And it is anything, the job is so varied.
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So it could be I'm hiring a chair, a ceo, I'm supporting the CEO with the strategy.
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If they're kind of wrestling with something that I've got some experience in.
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A lot of it is around people, strategy and then support ultimately.
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So we are very different in, well, not very different.
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There's lots of investors like this, but I think we take a lot of pride in, we're very value adds.
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We are there to be supportive and I know from prior experience being on the other side, if you do not have an aligned board and group of shareholders, it can be a huge chain basically for any business.
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So especially
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times of crisis,
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Yeah, especially, especially.
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So don't, maybe you can come
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back to He says, getting his notebook
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so, that's like one big part of my job.
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It means I'm constantly being introduced to amazing people, that might be looking for moves.
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So I always see myself now as a, I never thought the job would be like a recruiter, but there's definitely a massive part of talent looking after talent, nurturing that becoming in our community.
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How can we be helpful?
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So a core value.
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And you know, if you've met Matt or Paul.
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They're very helpful people genuinely, and therefore that kind of runs through the business.
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So we have a big kind of belief system of what you give, you get back.
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And so there's a lot of what we do actually that we might not ever, ever see anything for true.
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Or if we do it might be in three, five years time.
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But that has been something Matt and Paul have built the business on,
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generosity is, is such an, is such a unique thing, in when it really genuinely comes from a, I don't know if this is commercially relevant.
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Yeah.
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You know, it's, it's not that, oh, I've spotted the, I've spotted the way this is gonna benefit me personally.
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It starts from just that point of give your time, give your help lend people, your studio.
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Be helpful.
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Right?
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Like so Matt, if you ask Matt, Matt, also be helpful.
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My articulation of that is be kind like we as a group of leaders, I think we all.
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Are given the space to articulate the value that means the most to us.
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For me, it has always been, hopefully if you ever spoke to any of my prior colleagues, it's about kindness.
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you know, I remember someone once said to me, many, many years ago, I, I was maybe, or definitely still growing up, highly naive.
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And I was looking at this guy and he was fabulous.
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And I thought, why isn't he gone for that promotion?
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This is many, many years ago.
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And I remember saying to him, I was probably about 23, 24, like, why haven't you done that?
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and he just looked at me and he said, Della, when I die, I want my gravestone.
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Not to say I'm the best insight director in the world, I wanted to say that I was an amazing dad and an amazing father, and I live my life by that gravestone.
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And I, and at the time I was, you know, this is a long time ago, and I'm thinking, wow.
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And it has never left me.
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And for me, apart from obviously trying to be a good mom and a good wife and sister, daughter, friend, all of those things, I've lived my life.
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I want that to say she was kind.
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And when I met Matt and Paul, I was able to see, you know, we are all learning.
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And I'm not saying by any means, we all get this right.
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But I believe they'd give me the space to show that kindness.
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So that means I can be who I am at the board table.
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I don't have to pretend to be someone I'm not with the team here, you know, we all flex in our own styles and for me, especially when times are hard, but even when they're not like being leading through kindness, I've been really able to do that here.
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So it's really interesting.
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A couple of things I've picked up on this one is a quite unusual, theme.
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I think I heard with regards to the values at true in that you probably didn't turn up and find kindness was one of the values.
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And maybe it's become more than just your value because of your sheer force of personality.
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But regardless, you, you're coming in here to be yourself, which is unwritten or written as a very important value in, in.
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In organizations of all types these but unkindness, go back to the most stressful, pressurized moment in your career.
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Mm-hmm.
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Did you hold onto that kindness?
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Was it still top and center?
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And if say, how?
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Because I'll, be the first to put my hand up and say, when the going got tough, my values wouldn't go away.
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They would just be drowned out by the stress.
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Yeah.
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So, Sometimes and sometimes not in the later stages of my career.
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Yes, in the more earlier stages, and I'll tell you a moment that changed for me where I now can sit here and say, I think I live my values every day and it means I sleep at night and I'm very happy person as a result of that.
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was very lucky to be given a amazing executive coach when I had just been made managing director at drum.
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An agency was coming back off maternity to leave.
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The circumstances were very difficult and I got given this coach, that coach is still my coach today.
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Oh,
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Oh, you, you've struck
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gold there.
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I have struck her.
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God name, check your coach.
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Oh, Her name is Fiona Pasha.
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She is the best coach in the world.
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she's inspired me to become a home is ringing.
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Yeah, she, honestly, she's phenomenal and I've had some very, very, very challenging moments in my career and without her, I don't, I genuinely, without her and my husband, I would not be doing what I do
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How often?
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do you speak to her?
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How often do
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So we have a, we have a session over the years, there's been moments where I haven't had her and then I've missed her
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typically once a month.
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Once a month,
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yeah.
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She's two hours.
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Once a month grounds
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but do you check, would you check in, in
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If there's something going on and I need her, she is there.
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She inspired me to train to be an executive coach.
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So I've done that.
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It's one of the things that brings me the most joy is coaching people, but coming back to value.
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So I'm a very.
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Values-based leader, not everybody is.
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So that's one of the first things I think I went through my learning was I didn't understand that some people don't lead through their values and some people do
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Do they not lead through their values or are they just not got very good values?
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They don't lead through their values.
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And this is something I had to learn cuz I thought exactly the same as you.
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Maybe they're
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they're just grotty people.
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I
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Oh great.
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And they're like, they're not choosing to lead through them and actively pull on them in the way that I do and lots of other leaders do.
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So that was one of the lessons I
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how
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I'm into that.
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a little, um, and there's two sides to my questions.
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Mm-hmm.
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I, I'm gonna talk about the personal stuff first of all.
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So give me an example of what that means to lead through your values.
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Are you in a moment of something's happening or you've got a decision or you need to communicate to someone?
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Do you literally find yourself stopping thinking, what do my values tell me I should be doing?
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Yes.
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So there's a tool I use when I coach people or with the team or it's called Via Character, basically.
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It's free, it's an online tool.
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You can do online character.
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Yeah.
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it's a strength finder tool, but you can interpret it as values.
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It's free to do, I highly recommend it.
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What it gives you back is your top 24.
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There's no negative in here.
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This is all positive.
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the premise of this is when you are going through incredibly stressful times, you dial up those top five strengths.
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Values Absolutely.
00:15:40.486 --> 00:15:43.611
As if you are turning up the sound to full
00:15:43.657 --> 00:15:43.836
awful.
00:15:44.152 --> 00:15:45.652
I'm just gonna, Yeah, yeah.
00:15:45.657 --> 00:15:45.711
Yeah.
00:15:45.711 --> 00:15:49.475
So I was in a situation when I, this is a long time ago, and I've.
00:15:49.475 --> 00:15:57.078
Been in many a situation like this where you will always get characters that jar with your values or you are in circumstances that it becomes very difficult.
00:15:57.206 --> 00:15:59.096
My number one value is honesty.
00:15:59.096 --> 00:16:01.000
My number two is kindness.
00:16:01.000 --> 00:16:02.379
My number three is fairness.
00:16:02.379 --> 00:16:03.580
My number four is teamwork.
00:16:03.585 --> 00:16:05.710
Let's concentrate on those four for now.
00:16:06.009 --> 00:16:14.865
I was being put under a lot of stress and a lot of pressure, and a particular person was, I couldn't understand why they were behaving in the way they were behaving.
00:16:14.894 --> 00:16:22.828
And I was in a CEO role and had the authority and power to do, you know, to say goodbye to this person if I
00:16:23.053 --> 00:16:26.913
And yet they were not behaving in a way that respected that power.
00:16:26.943 --> 00:16:28.173
Not that you demand respect.
00:16:28.219 --> 00:16:29.239
No, it's not about that.
00:16:29.239 --> 00:16:35.509
It was like, it was so testing and challenging and there were different ways I could have navigated
00:16:35.719 --> 00:16:38.104
could have just fired that person on the spot, but
00:16:38.479 --> 00:16:38.879
I didn't.
00:16:40.158 --> 00:16:40.879
It crossed my mind.
00:16:40.908 --> 00:16:41.389
No, I'm joking.
00:16:41.489 --> 00:16:45.168
so when I worked through my coach, it was sometimes, yeah.
00:16:45.240 --> 00:16:45.578
But it to
00:16:45.668 --> 00:16:47.708
be Yeah, definitely.
00:16:47.708 --> 00:16:48.399
Definitely.
00:16:48.413 --> 00:16:54.744
I think the, the main thing I wanna land is when you lead through values and this dial up exercise, it is very conscious.
00:16:54.803 --> 00:16:57.264
So day to day, do I think about my values?
00:16:57.474 --> 00:16:57.774
No.
00:16:58.494 --> 00:17:13.292
When I'm in a stressful situation and I'm evaluating how am I going to make decisions about this as a leader, I am very conscious of, am I being a hundred percent honest?
00:17:13.323 --> 00:17:15.182
Cuz it's really important to me.
00:17:15.435 --> 00:17:16.905
Am I being fair?
00:17:17.269 --> 00:17:18.348
you know, all of those things?
00:17:18.378 --> 00:17:20.808
Is this about the team or is this about myself?
00:17:20.808 --> 00:17:22.009
So everybody's
00:17:22.068 --> 00:17:24.528
very present to, to get to that moment.
00:17:24.528 --> 00:17:32.358
And again, you know, we talk, I mean, it's, it's quite a, a big theme, isn't it, in, in business these days about are present in the now.
00:17:32.358 --> 00:17:49.630
But if you are 95% of, of the, the, the people, in, in business who are just going at the pace they feel they need to go at, it's very difficult to slow down check how you are and whether you are being true to what matters to
00:17:50.339 --> 00:17:59.285
Because you ultimately, I've made mistakes and I've not stayed true to those values sometimes, and it has made me miserable and haven't slept.
00:17:59.285 --> 00:18:01.595
So for me, sleep is so important.
00:18:02.142 --> 00:18:03.342
Like, so important.
00:18:03.342 --> 00:18:10.122
And so the, the whole premise of this is if you dial into those and you behave in to your values, you will sleep better.
00:18:10.122 --> 00:18:11.501
You will be a better leader.
00:18:11.814 --> 00:18:13.104
It might mean,
00:18:13.233 --> 00:18:14.183
better person all around
00:18:14.213 --> 00:18:20.164
yeah, it might mean in this particular instance I'm drawing back on, it took longer.
00:18:21.049 --> 00:18:24.710
To say goodbye to that person in a kind and fair way,
00:18:24.952 --> 00:18:26.644
but but a way that sets them up for the
00:18:26.758 --> 00:18:26.859
future.
00:18:27.049 --> 00:18:27.539
Exactly.
00:18:27.920 --> 00:18:40.056
And a way that I knew even when it got to that terrible bit at the end, it wasn't so terrible actually, because we'd both handled it in different ways, but I knew I'd done it the best way I possibly could.
00:18:40.441 --> 00:18:49.125
And I think when you are learning, and I've been on the hugest learning curve ever and will always remain on a learning curve, I hope, it was jarring with me sometimes.
00:18:49.125 --> 00:18:53.296
Some decisions I made, they physically impacted me and jarred me afterwards.
00:18:54.046 --> 00:19:01.726
And I would encourage anyone listening to this, take note of that jarring, take note of how your body feels.
00:19:01.940 --> 00:19:05.599
And if it jars you, it's jars you for a reason.
00:19:05.990 --> 00:19:09.289
Don't sweep it under the carpet and think, oh, well ow.
00:19:09.470 --> 00:19:13.700
Like, take a center of it and figure out it's okay to make mistakes.
00:19:13.700 --> 00:19:21.829
When you are super stressed, you are going to do things that on reflection in a different set of circumstances you wouldn't have done.
00:19:22.220 --> 00:19:27.140
It's not about not making, yeah, it's not about not making the mistakes or doing it or perfect.
00:19:27.140 --> 00:19:35.781
It's about learning quickly and finding a way to send to you so that you become the best leader you can possibly be for your people.
00:19:35.872 --> 00:19:36.501
Ultimately,
00:19:37.057 --> 00:19:38.616
it's, it's brilliant.
00:19:38.616 --> 00:19:39.457
It's simple.
00:19:39.457 --> 00:19:47.272
In many ways, write down your most important values or use this tool that we will call via character and change.
00:19:47.303 --> 00:19:48.702
If not, in some form.
00:19:49.002 --> 00:19:50.442
and, and then, and then have that.
00:19:50.442 --> 00:19:55.903
Now, how does that, not con conflict, but conflate with corporate values?
00:19:56.262 --> 00:20:08.712
Because we also know that, many and especially founder led businesses have these very strong corporate values, probably based on the founders values, like they are here with Paul and Matt's helpfulness, as you said.
00:20:09.212 --> 00:20:20.442
and we on the whole encourage companies to define their character or their values or whatever you want to describe it as a way of, supporting the culture of the organization.
00:20:20.782 --> 00:20:28.222
now I've, I, I've got this imagination in my mind of five company values on one hand and my five personal values on the other.
00:20:28.222 --> 00:20:30.532
And now I've got, now I've got 10 values.
00:20:30.538 --> 00:20:38.303
I've got to make sure, is this, am I making up a really pathetic reason to be concerned with this Personal values leadership?
00:20:38.307 --> 00:20:38.542
Please.
00:20:38.542 --> 00:20:39.472
How does it, you know,
00:20:40.113 --> 00:20:40.792
does it, no.
00:20:40.792 --> 00:20:46.682
I think if you are a CEO or founder, that ultimately the company will, you
00:20:46.768 --> 00:20:50.198
You're let's, but let's say you are one, you're around the C-suite.
00:20:50.198 --> 00:20:50.258
Yeah.
00:20:50.708 --> 00:20:55.958
And there's, there's, you know, the corporate values are really important and then there's your personal values.
00:20:56.647 --> 00:20:59.438
Of course, if there's conflict, we know the answer to that, right?
00:20:59.798 --> 00:21:05.119
You go with your personal values, but they could be complimentary, but more of them now.
00:21:05.180 --> 00:21:06.769
Is that, that's fine.
00:21:06.904 --> 00:21:07.650
I think.
00:21:07.977 --> 00:21:10.287
so let's talk about True as a good example, right?
00:21:10.287 --> 00:21:23.776
Like, I'm not the founders here, it's Paul and Matt and I do have complimentary, I think values and skills and it's more about, we talk about behaviors here actually for Paul and Matt, and one of them is passion for true.
00:21:23.776 --> 00:21:26.115
One is own your best self.
00:21:26.476 --> 00:21:28.215
One is comfort and discomfort.
00:21:28.532 --> 00:21:37.826
It took me a little bit of time actually to be able to go, where do I fit in that with, because I'm very values driven and Paul, and I've discussed this quite a lot actually.
00:21:37.916 --> 00:21:42.777
it's not, it's about you as an individual finding your way through that.
00:21:42.777 --> 00:21:44.342
So own your best self.
00:21:44.631 --> 00:21:52.175
That for Matt is probably going out for dinner, whining and dining, some people selling True.
00:21:52.205 --> 00:21:53.796
He's absolutely at his
00:21:53.929 --> 00:21:55.955
best it's it's the best one to use as an example.
00:21:55.955 --> 00:21:56.105
Right.
00:21:56.105 --> 00:21:57.036
Because we can all Yeah.
00:21:57.365 --> 00:21:58.909
In an individual way do that.
00:21:59.239 --> 00:22:00.979
But some of the others are a bit more
00:22:01.459 --> 00:22:02.838
Well, passion for true is fine, right?
00:22:02.838 --> 00:22:06.528
Because if you don't have passion for the company you're working at, don't work there.
00:22:06.979 --> 00:22:08.778
Comfort and discomfort is harder.
00:22:08.868 --> 00:22:12.199
And that's definitely been a harder one for me to be like.
00:22:12.679 --> 00:22:21.565
And where that has caused, quite honestly, I care so much about the people I work with first.
00:22:21.825 --> 00:22:22.099
Mm-hmm.
00:22:23.144 --> 00:22:23.365
And
00:22:23.684 --> 00:22:26.539
which will take you want to a path of wanting to resolve
00:22:26.714 --> 00:22:27.484
it's Yeah.
00:22:28.115 --> 00:22:28.605
Comfort.
00:22:28.664 --> 00:22:29.694
So, exactly.
00:22:29.694 --> 00:22:32.575
So Care first or Care second.
00:22:32.994 --> 00:22:34.855
So that's been a really big interesting
00:22:35.059 --> 00:22:43.089
I have to say, I, I actually think it's doubles down on the power of, of company values or or character, which is my favorite.
00:22:43.210 --> 00:23:00.118
But anyway, the, one of the things I've found is if there is no conflict in the values of a company, they're not as useful because it's the tension between values that allows you to have an internal or an external debate about decisions.
00:23:00.118 --> 00:23:03.209
It is the tension between two goods.
00:23:03.662 --> 00:23:03.872
Yeah.
00:23:03.872 --> 00:23:17.847
I think it works if you create an environment where people feel very safe to express, I actually interpret it like this, or this is what it means to me and this is gonna make me be my
00:23:17.901 --> 00:23:19.738
best And it can't be
00:23:20.787 --> 00:23:29.740
to no, and if you don't create an environment where people feel, I use the word safe, other people will say, you know, secure, whatever the word is.
00:23:30.019 --> 00:23:32.604
Like, you have to create an environment.
00:23:32.604 --> 00:23:40.516
For me, and I did this very much, and not on the high street where there was a psychological safety in what all the leadership team created.
00:23:40.516 --> 00:23:43.816
There was still some conflict, some tension.
00:23:43.816 --> 00:23:49.726
There was still a real diverse group of people around that table, but we were united on.
00:23:49.901 --> 00:23:57.431
The vision of saving that company for the 5,000 small businesses that relied on it for their income, right, to pay their mortgages.
00:23:57.431 --> 00:24:02.719
Like there's nothing like a common goal and a purpose to unite a team.
00:24:02.808 --> 00:24:12.356
And then if you create an environment for me, that's around creating an a kindness environment and a culture around that to let individuals thrive.
00:24:12.987 --> 00:24:17.547
But as a leader, this takes up loads of my time, right?
00:24:17.547 --> 00:24:23.104
So please do not listen to this thinking you can outsource it to someone.
00:24:23.394 --> 00:24:27.743
Like, I hear this, oh, we'll let the HR manager do that, or, we'll, bringing this consultant, or We'll do this.
00:24:27.743 --> 00:24:27.804
I'm
00:24:28.009 --> 00:24:29.169
it's the same with any value.
00:24:29.173 --> 00:24:33.723
If you're not leading from the front with this and using it every day, it won't get embedded.
00:24:33.723 --> 00:24:34.594
It won't get used.
00:24:34.594 --> 00:24:36.259
It won't get exemplified.
00:24:36.743 --> 00:24:37.034
Yeah.
00:24:37.144 --> 00:24:37.433
Yeah.
00:24:37.534 --> 00:24:38.433
And do you know what?
00:24:38.463 --> 00:24:43.953
Sometimes you might be in an environment that it doesn't work for your values, and then that's okay.
00:24:44.253 --> 00:24:45.193
You can move on.
00:24:45.703 --> 00:24:46.354
It's okay.
00:24:46.624 --> 00:24:47.884
And you should move on.
00:24:47.884 --> 00:24:50.614
Although that's a privileged thing to say.
00:24:50.844 --> 00:25:06.826
I'm, I'm, I do want to just connect very briefly back to, conversation two Poco with, with Nicola from Maid, where she also talked about the power and importance of having that, those very diverse opinions around a table in a moment, especially in a moment of crisis.
00:25:06.826 --> 00:25:21.857
And then obviously having a, a, a safe place for people to be able to make their cases and to want that as a CEO or as a leader rather than, as I know many leaders do, is they actually try to ensure that.
00:25:22.128 --> 00:25:28.095
They, they try to keep people in their, in their lanes and, and to not have this, because it's messy.
00:25:28.313 --> 00:25:33.053
Everybody having opinions and, and, and, and wanting to, to bring their point of view to something.
00:25:33.057 --> 00:25:34.222
It's a messy environment.
00:25:34.222 --> 00:25:34.663
It's hard.
00:25:35.032 --> 00:25:36.323
It's, it is.
00:25:36.323 --> 00:25:41.903
But if you're not having it around the top table, I can absolutely guarantee you it's happening without you there.
00:25:42.296 --> 00:25:45.506
And that's even more dangerous and becomes even more messy.
00:25:46.195 --> 00:25:46.885
that's such a good
00:25:46.957 --> 00:25:47.076
point.
00:25:47.375 --> 00:25:49.576
So for me, it's, again,
00:25:49.798 --> 00:25:52.048
people will have their opinions behind your back or in
00:25:52.119 --> 00:25:52.409
front of you.
00:25:52.409 --> 00:25:52.769
Yeah.
00:25:52.828 --> 00:25:54.449
So what culture do you want to create?
00:25:54.509 --> 00:26:02.932
Do you want a culture where people know, they can say, I don't agree with you and this is why, but for me it comes back to always care and kindness.
00:26:02.932 --> 00:26:03.053
Right.
00:26:03.057 --> 00:26:08.936
So I've been in an environment, I can't know if it was Google that implemented it, but there was a book called Radical Candor.
00:26:09.354 --> 00:26:12.007
And this book got handed out and I dunno if
00:26:12.067 --> 00:26:15.186
It's one of those books where the title immediately gives you half the
00:26:15.186 --> 00:26:16.606
book, Oh my goodness.
00:26:16.866 --> 00:26:21.787
I remember thinking, it's like you've now given permission to basically be rude.
00:26:21.959 --> 00:26:31.618
Now, radical candor works when you go through all the stages and one of the key stages is, I know you, Jamie, I understand you.
00:26:31.828 --> 00:26:33.868
I genuinely care about you.
00:26:34.013 --> 00:26:36.689
Therefore, I'm, I feel I can say this.
00:26:36.689 --> 00:26:38.068
And you know it's coming from the right
00:26:38.519 --> 00:26:47.096
Well, and you trust the, to use, well, it depends who's got the power base here, but you know, you trust the person with the power to not be using that against you
00:26:47.487 --> 00:26:47.817
yeah.
00:26:47.997 --> 00:26:55.375
And when it goes wrong is people hear these phrases like radical candor or they go, I look, I've just, I'm just opinionated.
00:26:55.375 --> 00:26:57.026
I've got an opinion, I wanna say it.
00:26:57.026 --> 00:27:01.736
And you're like, But where is that coming from and how are you delivering that?
00:27:01.813 --> 00:27:04.663
And have you got any empathy?
00:27:04.878 --> 00:27:18.951
So empathetic leaders are the best type of leaders in my humble opinion, because you are then executing decisions, you're having those difficult conversations, if I could give anyone, but train your team to have difficult conversations.
00:27:19.224 --> 00:27:21.355
This is slows down businesses.
00:27:21.501 --> 00:27:23.241
It disrupts businesses.
00:27:23.481 --> 00:27:25.582
You hire the wrong, like you can hire the wrong type of people.
00:27:25.582 --> 00:27:34.200
This, if you genuinely want a spirit of diversity and inclusion and you want different opinions, first teach them empathy.
00:27:34.470 --> 00:27:36.930
If they don't have it, and some people don't, right?
00:27:37.109 --> 00:27:37.980
Some people don't.
00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:39.299
And I've been there with a.
00:27:39.630 --> 00:27:47.117
Direct report once who was technically brilliant, but she really struggled with eq, like really struggled.
00:27:47.387 --> 00:27:48.198
And so most of
00:27:48.363 --> 00:27:48.932
my many people,
00:27:49.252 --> 00:27:50.448
people do well.
00:27:50.448 --> 00:27:51.077
That right?
00:27:51.137 --> 00:27:54.317
It was like, I'm gonna give you a couple of scenarios this week.
00:27:54.708 --> 00:27:57.857
What with how I heard it or how the person heard it.
00:27:58.063 --> 00:28:02.683
And that was my one-to-ones with her wasn't the technical stuff or where are
00:28:02.713 --> 00:28:04.784
are we on this objective and, and how do we
00:28:05.443 --> 00:28:07.153
no, because she could put that in an email, right?
00:28:07.153 --> 00:28:16.054
And I could say yes, no, the personal time in that week was much more about, I genuinely care, I still care about her a lot today.
00:28:16.300 --> 00:28:27.996
And that care came from, I'm gonna get her a coach to help her with this EQ side and empathy and I'm gonna invest my time one-to-one to be that mirror that she needs to learn the muscle.
00:28:28.000 --> 00:28:29.705
Cause I believe it's a muscle that can be learned.
00:28:30.246 --> 00:28:44.333
Now, obviously you are going to, if I was to challenge you on economic business case of, of investing that amount of time, in, into understanding what people really are saying, for instance, there's no ROI to prove this.
00:28:44.333 --> 00:28:54.053
There's no, there's no evidence faced to say that a business will be stronger in, in the short, medium and long term for, for putting this stuff at its heart.
00:28:54.053 --> 00:29:02.074
We just have the anecdotes of great businesses and great leaders who do it, but give us a business case attempt to frame this as a business
00:29:02.338 --> 00:29:02.429
case.
00:29:02.429 --> 00:29:07.919
So there's lots and lots of ROI on having successful, diverse teams.
00:29:07.923 --> 00:29:08.009
Yes.
00:29:08.699 --> 00:29:15.088
And to have successful, diverse teams, you have to create an environment for that team to
00:29:15.374 --> 00:29:22.231
just clicked, the You can't have diversity without people having empathy because that's where it falls down.
00:29:22.382 --> 00:29:22.652
Yeah.
00:29:22.914 --> 00:29:23.904
And you have Perfect.
00:29:24.654 --> 00:29:35.515
So the, for me, it's like a job as a CEO is, you know, the South's really easy in Singapore and I'm very, very aware of the realities of being in the trenches.
00:29:35.654 --> 00:29:50.769
But ultimately, I believe apart from setting a really clear vision and clear goals on what success looks like, which are all very, very key, the job of a CEO for me is to create an environment for the people around me to thrive and therefore the best.
00:29:50.828 --> 00:29:57.957
I believe if you've hired exceptionally great people, at the level where you're talking about here.
00:29:57.957 --> 00:29:59.457
This is founders and CEOs.
00:29:59.457 --> 00:30:05.717
If you hire brilliantly, whether that's for attitude or skill, we'll come back to that and you've set that clear vision.
00:30:05.980 --> 00:30:11.490
If you are having to get hugely involved in the execution of what those people are doing, something is wrong.
00:30:11.490 --> 00:30:18.942
Something is really wrong, so therefore your time should be able to spend on how am I creating the best
00:30:19.073 --> 00:30:26.007
And, and let's, let's let's not skip over the, the setting the vision and, and, and what success looks like part of it.
00:30:26.007 --> 00:30:34.277
Because without that, the individuals can't lead in their own way anyway towards this common goal because you have to get involved.
00:30:34.277 --> 00:30:45.971
So you have to have that clarity I, I, I'm gonna take us off this, this road just for a second, because when I asked you half an hour ago, to tell me about True, my follow up question.
00:30:47.137 --> 00:30:49.057
My follow up question was gonna be, right.
00:30:49.057 --> 00:31:06.712
You guys talk to a lot of businesses, and rather than us looking at the stats, which is always a trailing indicator of how people are feeling about the world today, what's your sense of the pulse of business and the economy and our environment today?
00:31:06.893 --> 00:31:08.843
are you and colleagues worried?
00:31:08.942 --> 00:31:09.242
Yeah.
00:31:09.248 --> 00:31:16.103
So I can give you true and I can give you me and the pretty, pretty united, I think I would like to if you walk out this room today Yeah.
00:31:16.583 --> 00:31:24.023
Feeling more positive and more optimistic you are one piece of an influential puzzle.
00:31:24.354 --> 00:31:29.496
The more people that start to feel positive, the economy is going to get
00:31:29.763 --> 00:31:35.963
No, the economy's made up of a, a large number of profit motivated individuals following the Okay, I agree.
00:31:36.480 --> 00:31:38.737
Positivity helps, but now let's get real.
00:31:39.020 --> 00:31:39.141
Yeah.
00:31:39.141 --> 00:31:41.710
So I think it's, It's tough.
00:31:41.710 --> 00:31:48.185
And I think CEOs certainly in our portfolio lots of people are tired cuz they've come out of Covid.
00:31:48.441 --> 00:31:49.641
That was tough.
00:31:49.881 --> 00:32:00.320
They then tough because for lots of our businesses actually, they experienced incredible growth cuz when lots of DTC businesses, but that was not easy to deal with.
00:32:00.320 --> 00:32:00.951
That volume
00:32:00.986 --> 00:32:02.375
turned out to be transient too.
00:32:02.661 --> 00:32:02.721
too.
00:32:02.721 --> 00:32:03.351
Exactly.
00:32:03.381 --> 00:32:11.547
We're now dealing with As, as a lot of your people on this podcast have explained, you know, everybody, you know, the, the future is different.
00:32:11.547 --> 00:32:11.636
Mm-hmm.
00:32:12.017 --> 00:32:26.057
So I see and again, I'm ever the optimist, but I see it as it is going to be more positive for businesses because I think we will have more sustainable businesses that are gonna have to do things in a better and right way.
00:32:26.420 --> 00:32:29.780
And that is long term going to be good.
00:32:29.959 --> 00:32:33.199
For the economy and for people and for the planet.
00:32:33.229 --> 00:32:36.858
more sustainable will come from where we are today.
00:32:36.858 --> 00:32:39.858
Or are you saying the businesses that aren't going to survive,
00:32:40.368 --> 00:32:42.949
So there'll, there'll be, there'll be not doing the right things?
00:32:43.249 --> 00:32:53.683
No, I, I feel terrible, right, that there will be businesses that for no instant fault because it has been quite dramatic times they won't survive.
00:32:53.743 --> 00:32:54.584
And that is awful.
00:32:54.584 --> 00:32:58.239
So I I'm not saying every business that doesn't survive today
00:32:58.332 --> 00:32:59.501
it's one is one.
00:32:59.832 --> 00:33:00.342
It's one
00:33:00.551 --> 00:33:01.932
like Yeah, no, no, no, no.
00:33:01.936 --> 00:33:02.622
I'm not saying that.
00:33:02.622 --> 00:33:22.320
What I'm saying is the businesses that do survive, I think will be better for going through this because the pivot As a leader of high growth to cash conservation and how to be way more disciplined and frugal, you then find yourself.
00:33:22.320 --> 00:33:36.068
I've done a couple of turnarounds, and when you are in that situation, you become laser or you should become laser sharp on here and now, okay, what am I in control of?
00:33:36.222 --> 00:33:39.042
What can I sort out, how do I preserve cash?
00:33:39.277 --> 00:34:04.611
Also, someone in your business, if at all possible, has to have the mandate of looking when you are out of the storm, and I think if you can navigate that, someone's Someone has to be, ideally, you as a ceo, not always possible, but someone in your business or a group of people has to be working through what the world looks like when you are out of this storm.
00:34:04.641 --> 00:34:09.909
Because if you just tread water for too long, what happens?
00:34:10.547 --> 00:34:12.806
I mean, you get very tired and you
00:34:13.211 --> 00:34:13.601
Yeah.
00:34:14.112 --> 00:34:23.199
So treading water and cash preservation and cutting and survival mode, which I think a lot of businesses are in Yeah.
00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:24.969
Is absolutely necessary.
00:34:24.969 --> 00:34:24.998
I,
00:34:25.585 --> 00:34:41.510
in his own very different way, my friend Steve Lanker, who I do these little short podcasts with every now and again, was saying earlier this year how he really thinks businesses should be, especially those that are beating their negative budgets they set when we thought things were gonna be really bad.
00:34:41.684 --> 00:34:44.864
If they've beaten that number, take half of it and reinvest it in growth.
00:34:45.137 --> 00:34:50.938
that's all right for those who are beating their, their budgets and, and it's also the world's changed again though, and this is where I get a little bit down.
00:34:50.943 --> 00:34:52.637
I mean, at the beginning of the year.
00:34:52.726 --> 00:34:59.235
We woke up and found that we are not going to be in a recession as long and shallow as it was going to be.
00:34:59.626 --> 00:35:05.150
Now one seems terribly likely and probably more painful than the one that was previously predicted.
00:35:05.500 --> 00:35:09.532
and I too am worried about the tiredness because this isn't going to go away.
00:35:09.532 --> 00:35:14.195
For some time, for a lot of, a lot of businesses and consumer sector particularly.
00:35:14.545 --> 00:35:21.146
do, do you have a, I mean, you have so many different businesses, I'm sure you have different eyes on different ends of the market.
00:35:21.206 --> 00:35:26.753
I tend to have a amid to premium, mindset in terms of my consumer businesses.
00:35:26.853 --> 00:35:30.992
Is, is, is there a, do the businesses you are talking to feel the same?
00:35:31.411 --> 00:35:41.731
So we've got a bit of a spectrum actually, cuz if you think about a Ribble bike, that's an expensive purchase, very good value, excellent brand, very recommend them.
00:35:42.121 --> 00:35:48.721
But that isn't something you are going to just go, oh, for most people, they're not going to spend that much on a bike willy-nilly.
00:35:48.721 --> 00:35:48.931
Right?
00:35:48.931 --> 00:35:50.581
So you've got that extent.
00:35:50.641 --> 00:35:58.951
We've got a furniture business where through Covid, lots of people were in and spending their disposable income on doing up their house.
00:35:59.311 --> 00:36:03.740
And then you've got a energy drinks business called Sneak, which is a very different consumer.
00:36:03.746 --> 00:36:03.891
Right.
00:36:03.891 --> 00:36:05.570
Very, very different game consumer.
00:36:05.570 --> 00:36:09.425
So we're spotting different trends come out of that Forne.
00:36:09.666 --> 00:36:19.708
The payday window has suddenly become an incredible window for that business to not only acquire new customers, but for their current customers to come back.
00:36:20.188 --> 00:36:27.958
So people are more conscious of their disposable spending and when they want that treat or they want to buy something that they don't absolutely have to
00:36:28.423 --> 00:36:28.873
Mm-hmm.
00:36:29.378 --> 00:36:30.318
The payday,
00:36:30.494 --> 00:36:31.934
but the everyday treat.
00:36:32.083 --> 00:36:32.143
Yeah.
00:36:32.304 --> 00:36:34.543
Because that's what that is as opposed to the bike.
00:36:34.664 --> 00:36:35.688
But that window become more
00:36:35.795 --> 00:36:36.023
important.
00:36:36.753 --> 00:36:36.963
Yeah.
00:36:36.963 --> 00:36:37.833
Really interesting.
00:36:37.833 --> 00:36:40.114
So I'm like very similarly with a,
00:36:40.128 --> 00:36:44.538
a, which as an insight can lead to all sorts of brilliant strategic plans and
00:36:44.681 --> 00:36:44.827
Yeah.
00:36:44.878 --> 00:36:45.208
Yeah.
00:36:45.208 --> 00:36:56.797
And it's, I think, because I have been an operator before, because of what I bring to the table, that was a while ago, I said on the sneak board, hang on a minute, are we seeing any patterns come?
00:36:56.797 --> 00:36:56.856
Yeah.
00:36:57.427 --> 00:36:59.016
Like what's, what are the patterns we're seeing?
00:36:59.016 --> 00:36:59.827
What are the trends?
00:36:59.831 --> 00:37:10.922
And I was like, I've got a hypothesis cuz it happened at, not on the high street, so actually we realized there was this window of five days where we could really up our marketing spend.
00:37:10.927 --> 00:37:12.302
It's really tactical, really
00:37:12.347 --> 00:37:13.998
It's so, it's so important, isn't it?
00:37:13.998 --> 00:37:17.447
Because there's no such thing as a, a general trend in your business.
00:37:17.447 --> 00:37:19.797
So if I take my restaurant businesses, fine.
00:37:19.797 --> 00:37:28.347
If we had a month and we were down when, what days of the week, which locations in the uk, why get to the why cuz you got to the payday window.
00:37:28.677 --> 00:37:29.757
That was the moment.
00:37:29.862 --> 00:37:29.981
Mm-hmm.
00:37:30.427 --> 00:37:35.235
Once you get to the why, then you can invest to grow that bit of the market that seems to be thriving
00:37:35.521 --> 00:37:35.820
Yeah.
00:37:35.820 --> 00:37:42.150
Because or correct from it comes back to, and everyone will talk about this and they talk about it for a very good reason.
00:37:42.510 --> 00:37:43.170
Empathy.
00:37:43.170 --> 00:37:47.490
So if you're putting yourself in the mind of your consumer and your customer,
00:37:47.505 --> 00:37:49.050
my goodness me, you need EQ to
00:37:49.061 --> 00:37:58.438
run the consumer isn't it Literally Then you are like, they're probably running out of money now, or they're not top of mind, they're thinking about paying their mortgage or their energy bill.
00:37:58.438 --> 00:37:58.440
Or
00:37:58.523 --> 00:38:05.213
And marketing authenticity is obviously so now and, and has been for the last five, 10 years.
00:38:05.494 --> 00:38:07.204
but it is, it fits in with the whole thing.
00:38:07.204 --> 00:38:17.304
It's why, it's why everything you're talking about in culture and values plays into the same questions in marketing consumer businesses and what we mean by brand I'm gonna move us on cause we're on our time.
00:38:17.422 --> 00:38:31.750
and, and we're not gonna do, if you don't mind, we're not gonna do the major sort of just, you know, go run through your cv, although I did read somewhere that you have amongst other things done, conveyancing being a reflexologist, a masseuse.
00:38:31.893 --> 00:38:41.523
but, the most, I don't wanna say interesting, but the most important for me and where I want to have a conversation with you about is you left school at 16, 15,
00:38:42.068 --> 00:38:42.188
Mm-hmm.
00:38:42.697 --> 00:38:47.034
I'm, I'm really interested to explore your zigzagging journey mm-hmm.
00:38:47.784 --> 00:38:51.994
to being a ceo, which was at drum, a marketing agency.
00:38:52.221 --> 00:38:58.251
and I th I suspect we're going to pick up on a lot of where, therefore this character comes from of yours.
00:38:58.251 --> 00:39:07.954
But, talk to me as if you can about that journey, because where I want to end up on it a little bit, maybe for your three things or, or maybe we'll play on it.
00:39:07.954 --> 00:39:11.534
First is, so many of us in business are.
00:39:11.771 --> 00:39:27.974
Were for crisis came again, really focused on putting in place better recruitment processes and procedures to really try and get undiscovered talent into our businesses and not just go with you know, 80% based on the CV alone type of recruitment.
00:39:27.974 --> 00:39:28.304
Right.
00:39:28.692 --> 00:39:37.387
and, and I'd love to hear your story and your perspectives on what business can and should do to enable more people like you to, to, to thrive.
00:39:37.728 --> 00:39:40.097
even if they make choices to leave school early Yeah.
00:39:40.387 --> 00:39:42.438
And, and not go the traditional route.
00:39:42.438 --> 00:39:42.768
Right.
00:39:43.128 --> 00:39:44.597
So tell us the story a little
00:39:44.648 --> 00:39:44.793
bit.
00:39:45.014 --> 00:39:46.635
Yeah, I'll try and do it succinctly.
00:39:46.775 --> 00:39:48.936
it's definitely a squiggly one.
00:39:48.936 --> 00:39:56.590
So if I step back, say I am one of seven children, all of this is hyper relevant to the, yeah, we'll write down in the middle.
00:39:56.590 --> 00:39:57.190
Number three.
00:39:57.409 --> 00:40:08.630
my upbringing, I was raised in a council house in Watford, in London, and when I was five my father had an accident and as a result of that accident has never worked again.
00:40:08.630 --> 00:40:10.909
So as mentally disabled when I was five.
00:40:11.108 --> 00:40:13.385
So wanting to look after his family.
00:40:13.889 --> 00:40:21.688
we went on a bit of a journey of moving around and he could project man, he couldn't physically do the work, but he could project manage people to do up houses.
00:40:21.822 --> 00:40:28.663
and he was determined that we would, you know, have a nice home as a family, if not have much money.
00:40:28.693 --> 00:40:29.938
Like our home is very important.
00:40:30.228 --> 00:40:31.458
So we moved around a little bit.
00:40:31.458 --> 00:40:35.297
My mom, as a result, had seven children, worked at Asda.
00:40:35.570 --> 00:40:37.579
worked in a pub work split shifts.
00:40:37.579 --> 00:40:44.059
So as children we became incredibly independent and we looked the choice really.
00:40:44.119 --> 00:40:44.420
Yeah.
00:40:44.425 --> 00:40:46.815
And we looked after each other from 13.
00:40:46.846 --> 00:40:50.385
I was working, I used to clean the condo ferries.
00:40:50.385 --> 00:40:52.742
I'd cycle down on my bike three days a week.
00:40:52.742 --> 00:40:53.581
I got three 50.
00:40:53.586 --> 00:40:54.692
That was a lot of money.
00:40:54.692 --> 00:40:55.922
They thought I was 18.
00:40:55.992 --> 00:40:58.422
I never told them any different, to be fair, back to that
00:40:58.550 --> 00:40:58.782
obviously.
00:40:58.782 --> 00:40:58.902
Yeah.
00:40:58.902 --> 00:41:00.521
I can't get away with that these days, can you?
00:41:00.521 --> 00:41:00.581
Um,
00:41:00.820 --> 00:41:02.900
but yeah, so I was cleaning ferries.
00:41:03.177 --> 00:41:04.827
Gross job, if I'm being honest.
00:41:04.918 --> 00:41:11.442
But that gave me financial, not independence, but I, I didn't have to ask my mum and dad for anything.
00:41:11.876 --> 00:41:13.436
So I started working at 13.
00:41:13.436 --> 00:41:15.925
By 15 I was working in a restaurant.
00:41:16.346 --> 00:41:18.626
I got pretty good GCSEs actually.
00:41:18.726 --> 00:41:26.072
and there was a lot of talk of, go to college, go do an mvq, and at that time you could leave school at 15, 16.
00:41:26.072 --> 00:41:27.302
You didn't have to do six form.
00:41:27.465 --> 00:41:33.065
when I worked in the restaurant, I was working nine till three, six till 12 or 12 till 12, right.
00:41:33.135 --> 00:41:34.907
It was shifts very quickly.
00:41:34.907 --> 00:41:36.407
They made me a supervisor.
00:41:36.583 --> 00:41:40.527
Then before I knew it, I was on this British Institute of in keeping path.
00:41:40.733 --> 00:41:42.773
they saw hard work and I.
00:41:43.039 --> 00:41:46.929
I, I guess good customer service being a good waitress.
00:41:46.929 --> 00:41:50.869
And I could handle chefs because I'd handled all my brothers, and my father.
00:41:50.869 --> 00:41:53.148
So like skills like that.
00:41:53.568 --> 00:41:55.039
they were just in me, I guess.
00:41:55.099 --> 00:42:00.769
And I really, really enjoyed the buzz of working and being around people.
00:42:00.769 --> 00:42:05.389
And then the financial reward meant I could take a lot of that money home to my family.
00:42:05.389 --> 00:42:05.630
Right.
00:42:05.630 --> 00:42:08.210
Which was a very positive thing for my family.
00:42:08.443 --> 00:42:11.588
Does that mean it wasn't a hard decision to not carry on in education?
00:42:11.653 --> 00:42:12.193
it wasn't.
00:42:12.193 --> 00:42:18.806
I, like, I went round, I looked at Mbq, I looked at things and I was like, I, I enjoy working that's what I'm gonna do.
00:42:18.806 --> 00:42:23.670
And I guess it wasn't an over, I didn't have parents going, don't do that.
00:42:23.949 --> 00:42:28.288
I didn't have people around me, apart from a few teachers going, Ella, like, you could,
00:42:28.418 --> 00:42:29.637
you could be You could
00:42:29.637 --> 00:42:31.547
be so Exactly.
00:42:31.648 --> 00:42:31.677
okay,
00:42:32.137 --> 00:42:32.557
I didn't really
00:42:32.737 --> 00:42:41.932
I didn't realize by the way, you know, I bang my drum all the time about how good a, long-term or even start to a career the hospitality industry can be.
00:42:41.932 --> 00:42:52.253
And I didn't realize this of, of view, particularly just going through a few layers of promotions and management, you know, getting into that space of effectively seeing a business operating close up.
00:42:52.253 --> 00:42:53.003
It's fabulous
00:42:53.398 --> 00:42:55.387
Well, I was at 17, 16, 17.
00:42:55.393 --> 00:43:05.347
I was cashing up the tills at night and like, literally the responsibility those owners gave me and trust they imparted at me at a really young age was insane.
00:43:05.347 --> 00:43:05.527
Really.
00:43:05.532 --> 00:43:11.585
I look back now, like I, I guess I was a gift cuz I had all this energy, all this kind of willingness to do
00:43:11.974 --> 00:43:12.125
well.
00:43:12.125 --> 00:43:13.864
you definitely, you were grafted
00:43:14.014 --> 00:43:14.135
cliff.
00:43:14.164 --> 00:43:14.585
Yeah.
00:43:14.644 --> 00:43:17.494
Like that is in my blood to work hard.
00:43:17.726 --> 00:43:22.186
And it was, it, it's given me such, and I still say to this day, if you can handle chefs, you can handle anyone.
00:43:22.706 --> 00:43:23.876
in the politest way
00:43:23.907 --> 00:43:26.867
I, mean, these days chefs are a different breed,
00:43:27.907 --> 00:43:28.597
most of them.
00:43:28.677 --> 00:43:29.637
and customer service.
00:43:29.637 --> 00:43:29.996
Right.
00:43:29.996 --> 00:43:30.657
Like all
00:43:30.672 --> 00:43:37.856
well, customer service and I mean the, the restaurant industry is, it's such an interesting industry because it is only about the
00:43:38.251 --> 00:43:38.516
Mm-hmm.
00:43:38.697 --> 00:43:41.585
You And it teaches you life skills, like patience.
00:43:41.855 --> 00:43:47.614
It teaches you resilience, it teaches you kindness, it teaches you all these things that if you,
00:43:48.250 --> 00:43:49.744
you maybe kindness or enabled
00:43:49.804 --> 00:43:50.105
you Yeah.
00:43:50.105 --> 00:43:57.844
Enabled me to be in an environment where, you know, don't get me wrong, you have, you get tired, there's difficult days, you get some really difficult customers.
00:43:58.030 --> 00:43:59.014
colleagues at times who
00:43:59.045 --> 00:43:59.704
Exactly.
00:44:00.244 --> 00:44:02.255
And then you're like, empathy, empathy, empathy.
00:44:02.255 --> 00:44:02.525
Right.
00:44:02.525 --> 00:44:03.184
And I'm young.
00:44:03.184 --> 00:44:05.375
I'm young at this point and learning.
00:44:05.375 --> 00:44:06.199
I'm 16,
00:44:06.425 --> 00:44:10.318
Where did it, but it, where did the empathy kindness bit come from at that
00:44:10.677 --> 00:44:10.858
age?
00:44:11.052 --> 00:44:16.231
honestly, good Christian principles as a girl, like, You know, treat others how you want to be treated.
00:44:16.231 --> 00:44:20.762
Like I was raised very much with those principles in my life.
00:44:20.831 --> 00:44:24.072
and they have, you know, I tried to raise those principles with my children.
00:44:24.275 --> 00:44:27.054
people around me today, they haven't ever left me.
00:44:27.054 --> 00:44:27.925
I don't think so.
00:44:28.036 --> 00:44:41.695
Well, and, and of course, you know, there is, such an important role in the family and how, not a traditional family structure, I'm not giving it any of that, but in the people around you as you grow up, what they impart on you and how they
00:44:42.114 --> 00:44:42.505
Yeah.
00:44:42.579 --> 00:44:42.820
okay.
00:44:42.824 --> 00:44:44.710
So, so you, you've, you are working away.
00:44:44.710 --> 00:44:49.630
You are, you are, but you're not on a path of clear path anywhere at this stage.
00:44:49.630 --> 00:44:51.099
You are trial and error.
00:44:51.309 --> 00:44:52.119
Do I like this?
00:44:52.119 --> 00:44:53.199
Am I having fun with this?
00:44:53.289 --> 00:44:54.280
Am I earning more money?
00:44:54.280 --> 00:44:55.809
I guess what's
00:44:55.914 --> 00:44:57.085
driving the, yeah.
00:44:57.085 --> 00:45:02.215
It was every move I made, it was a human connection with the person that asked me to go.
00:45:02.244 --> 00:45:06.490
And me thinking genuinely, oh, that would be really interesting.
00:45:06.851 --> 00:45:08.231
I'm interested in that.
00:45:08.291 --> 00:45:10.811
I wonder like, can I do that?
00:45:11.141 --> 00:45:14.951
So you're in these roles that interact with people and people are coming to you saying,
00:45:15.199 --> 00:45:16.068
come and work for me.
00:45:17.211 --> 00:45:17.632
right, circle.
00:45:17.869 --> 00:45:19.099
Have you ever applied for a job?
00:45:19.250 --> 00:45:21.324
Have you ever been in a competitive, recruitment
00:45:21.429 --> 00:45:25.509
yeah, so, so I got head tended for this role, but was up against quite a lot of people and I got
00:45:25.684 --> 00:45:28.565
oh, you see, I always thought you'd, I thought that would be the story that Matt
00:45:28.579 --> 00:45:30.139
I just saw you and said, no, no, no.
00:45:30.144 --> 00:45:33.769
I got head tended and was up against people and for not on the high street.
00:45:33.972 --> 00:45:39.851
I was up against people that definitely should have got the job in terms of experience versus me.
00:45:40.121 --> 00:45:48.215
So now I have been in competitive situations, but for leading up to before I joined DO md, which was a huge turning point for me in my career.
00:45:48.507 --> 00:45:48.898
Yeah.
00:45:48.898 --> 00:45:57.351
I ran a chiropractic clinic cuz I had a snowballing accident, had chiropractic treatment and then the chiropractor said, can you come and run my clinic for me?
00:45:57.565 --> 00:46:05.514
I went to be a licensed conveyancer because we got to buy a house to do up, to raise some money for my family.
00:46:05.514 --> 00:46:12.204
And I dealt with the solicitor and at the end of the transaction he phoned me up and said, I've got a job I really want you to do.
00:46:12.425 --> 00:46:12.644
So
00:46:12.775 --> 00:46:20.414
But how, I mean this isn't a podcast for young people listening sadly, cuz there won't be any but I mean, I know you do, you do school speaking and stuff.
00:46:20.414 --> 00:46:21.824
It's so important isn't it?
00:46:21.824 --> 00:46:31.637
To, to tell those stories about how just the, the what you bring to work every day will help you, but it is not, that's you fighting the world rather than the world enabling you.
00:46:31.768 --> 00:46:32.057
Yeah.
00:46:32.057 --> 00:46:39.108
But good people saw something in me, and I think this is, this is actually for leaders today is Yes, okay.
00:46:39.197 --> 00:46:53.827
I have a certain personality where like the optimism in me, the positiveness, like the work ethic, all of those things serve me very, very well for someone then to go, oh, maybe I'll give her an opportunity.
00:46:53.873 --> 00:46:57.990
And and by the way, some people's amazing characteristics are more hidden.
00:46:57.990 --> 00:46:59.990
Maybe they're a great Excel analyst
00:47:00.141 --> 00:47:00.681
Exactly.
00:47:00.681 --> 00:47:00.920
Exactly.
00:47:01.791 --> 00:47:03.621
I'm like off the charts yellow, right?
00:47:03.621 --> 00:47:05.751
So like literally sunshine yellow.
00:47:05.751 --> 00:47:07.148
So that is good and bad.
00:47:07.148 --> 00:47:09.068
So I recognize
00:47:09.228 --> 00:47:10.827
your, your point was to leaders though,
00:47:10.938 --> 00:47:11.228
Yeah.
00:47:11.268 --> 00:47:11.987
Spotting this.
00:47:12.057 --> 00:47:12.347
Yeah.
00:47:12.527 --> 00:47:15.494
then moved to London and it was, I
00:47:15.510 --> 00:47:17.070
got from Watford, oh
00:47:17.114 --> 00:47:18.255
you, no, sorry.
00:47:18.260 --> 00:47:21.885
I, after Watford, we moved around, ended up in Waymouth, a town in Waymouth.
00:47:21.885 --> 00:47:21.974
Nice.
00:47:21.974 --> 00:47:29.744
So Waymouth is actually identified as, it was social mobility standards as one of the 10, what they call cold spots of the country.
00:47:29.744 --> 00:47:30.045
Right.
00:47:30.045 --> 00:47:33.873
So I'm ambassador for retail week, and I was in a breakfast meeting.
00:47:33.992 --> 00:47:34.862
I was like not on the high street.
00:47:34.867 --> 00:47:36.663
So it must be about three or four years ago.
00:47:37.023 --> 00:47:50.663
And Sarah, who's the CEO of the Social Mobility Foundation, was there and she was trying to educate everybody on, you know, the need to give opportunities and how the retail industry in particular is very, Good at this.
00:47:50.989 --> 00:47:54.858
She said, the problem we've got is we haven't got any, like the role models are dwindling.
00:47:54.858 --> 00:47:58.639
We still have a few that are up there, but no one's really talking about it anymore.
00:47:58.668 --> 00:48:01.039
Anyway, she went on to say list.
00:48:01.039 --> 00:48:04.759
She listed the 10 cold spots, Waymouth being one of them.
00:48:04.818 --> 00:48:08.148
She then listed, did they have were, did they have free school meals?
00:48:08.179 --> 00:48:21.568
And I sat there thinking, They then listed, they left school at night and I was thinking, oh yeah, that was She basically listed all these things that class you as, you know, somebody that would fall under today.
00:48:21.574 --> 00:48:26.110
We know a social mobility opportunity that need to be given, and I had this real moment and then
00:48:26.349 --> 00:48:28.480
didn't know that was your story until
00:48:28.559 --> 00:48:28.980
moment?
00:48:29.199 --> 00:48:30.019
No, it was four years
00:48:30.039 --> 00:48:30.369
ago.
00:48:30.369 --> 00:48:30.659
Yeah.
00:48:30.811 --> 00:48:32.780
So I would tell because it's just your story.
00:48:32.907 --> 00:48:34.077
it, it is who I am.
00:48:34.083 --> 00:48:34.197
Right.
00:48:34.197 --> 00:48:38.697
I didn't know that that was important to tell this story.
00:48:38.934 --> 00:48:41.875
So at that moment I said, oh, I'm really sorry.
00:48:41.905 --> 00:48:43.764
I feel like I should say.
00:48:44.050 --> 00:48:44.889
that's me.
00:48:44.889 --> 00:48:49.269
What you are describing is me and round the room, everyone looked and I felt quite emotional.
00:48:49.269 --> 00:48:50.650
It was like a real moment,
00:48:50.880 --> 00:48:51.541
It's a, it's a
00:48:51.641 --> 00:48:52.090
huge moment.
00:48:52.090 --> 00:49:02.735
and said, oh, actually I've when I went, to, I standing not on the High Street, and I sat in that Zach Cream, the first question I got asked was, are you from Oxford or Cambridge?
00:49:03.454 --> 00:49:09.824
I was like, and everyone at that point, now the story is lots of people will know not Hundred Street.
00:49:09.824 --> 00:49:14.724
That exact team changed how, at that moment when I was there, that was the first question.
00:49:14.724 --> 00:49:16.884
I was like, oh no, I didn't go to university.
00:49:17.304 --> 00:49:21.943
And then I, that's what been my life in corporate is people will say, you didn't go to university.
00:49:22.440 --> 00:49:28.748
And I was like, no, no, I'm not highly educated Now, I was very lucky at.
00:49:28.974 --> 00:49:34.704
Omnicom to have the best boss ever called Philippa, who's still in my phone today, is called Philippa Best Boss.
00:49:35.364 --> 00:49:39.864
And she gave me the opportunity to become managing director and then CEO at Drum.
00:49:40.045 --> 00:49:43.266
She also put me on the Harvard Business School Development Program.
00:49:43.266 --> 00:49:43.597
Right.
00:49:43.657 --> 00:49:46.387
Oh, honestly, amazing, amazing, amazing.
00:49:46.657 --> 00:49:48.697
Very, very, very lucky.
00:49:48.697 --> 00:49:49.597
Blessed, privileged.
00:49:49.597 --> 00:49:50.317
All those words.
00:49:50.523 --> 00:49:51.152
Hell no.
00:49:51.568 --> 00:49:52.442
you earned that.
00:49:52.577 --> 00:49:52.867
Yeah.
00:49:52.867 --> 00:49:53.106
Yeah.
00:49:53.206 --> 00:49:55.804
But only two people out of thousands were picked.
00:49:55.804 --> 00:49:55.963
Right.
00:49:56.103 --> 00:49:58.023
So she saw it, she did it.
00:49:58.393 --> 00:49:59.083
I got to do
00:49:59.099 --> 00:49:59.518
it.
00:49:59.614 --> 00:49:59.958
it.
00:49:59.958 --> 00:50:01.293
She made the easy decision.
00:50:01.324 --> 00:50:01.384
Yeah.
00:50:01.384 --> 00:50:10.684
Because she saw, she herself was from a comprehensive school, saw something in me, saw this passion ability with people, and was like, I'm gonna give her a shot.
00:50:10.688 --> 00:50:10.864
Right.
00:50:10.864 --> 00:50:17.583
And I remember Campaign magazine covering the article and it was like, has basically saying, has she gone mad a bit?
00:50:17.813 --> 00:50:23.947
You know, so every time I've got these jobs, There's been enough people around me that have gone, she's gonna fail.
00:50:24.143 --> 00:50:27.773
That Jamie becomes an incredible motivator to not fail.
00:50:28.110 --> 00:50:28.530
So at
00:50:28.800 --> 00:50:31.710
you don't suffer from imposter syndrome like the rest of us.
00:50:31.769 --> 00:50:35.099
You fight everybody else's imposter syndrome of you.
00:50:35.492 --> 00:50:35.693
Yeah.
00:50:35.893 --> 00:50:39.112
I think it's like, why should I fail?
00:50:39.112 --> 00:50:43.269
Like if you live by these principles, I'm gonna make mistakes.
00:50:43.269 --> 00:50:45.610
I'm certainly, when I went to Northern High Street, it was hilarious.
00:50:46.059 --> 00:50:52.706
Literally, I was in charge of trading an e-commerce business and didn't understand any of the acumen.
00:50:52.706 --> 00:50:52.976
Right.
00:50:52.981 --> 00:50:53.547
I was literally
00:50:53.731 --> 00:50:53.811
business?
00:50:55.152 --> 00:50:55.771
200 million.
00:50:55.981 --> 00:50:56.331
Right.
00:50:56.601 --> 00:50:57.798
Big businesses.
00:50:57.829 --> 00:51:09.858
this is almost like a And next time on this podcast moment, because, no, with all seriousness, cuz we have to get to your three things mainly, cause I have to pick up my daughter from school, otherwise I'd continue for the next two hours.
00:51:10.349 --> 00:51:29.643
and, and instead because we, we haven't actually got the So what from from this story, you're going to give us some in your advice and I know, but I feel like I'd like to have a part two where we actually look at the career that, that I was gonna talk about, which is, you know, what, how did you get to become CEO of drama and what was it on that journey that made you the CEO you are?
00:51:30.306 --> 00:51:45.416
We're gonna save it, but with a very particular agenda because if there's anybody listening to this who, who is a CEO or leader of a business that, hasn't got on their list of things, they know they need to be better at, a more diverse and inclusive workforce, I'd be surprised.
00:51:45.552 --> 00:51:54.889
But when I meet CEOs of scale ups and small and medium sized businesses, There's not a lot out there in terms of clear paths and clear action.
00:51:54.889 --> 00:51:58.668
And I'm not asking you to write that for people either, but I think we should explore it some more.
00:51:59.068 --> 00:52:00.534
But we're gonna go to your three things Yeah.
00:52:00.893 --> 00:52:04.014
And offer people a part two to this cuz it's been very, very
00:52:04.119 --> 00:52:04.358
enjoyable.
00:52:04.673 --> 00:52:05.454
so hit me.
00:52:05.608 --> 00:52:08.668
Three pieces of action advice and I'm, I'm a bit of a grump on this.
00:52:08.668 --> 00:52:10.108
If it's not actionable, I'm gonna come at you.
00:52:10.603 --> 00:52:11.414
Oh, okay.
00:52:11.804 --> 00:52:20.115
well, unsurprisingly, I, I have, I, I did give this quite a bit of thought yesterday and I wanted it to hopefully link into some bits of popular culture.
00:52:20.115 --> 00:52:24.085
So my first one is be more Ted Lasso.
00:52:24.235 --> 00:52:24.264
Oh.
00:52:25.019 --> 00:52:27.719
now if you haven't watched Ted Lasso, please please do.
00:52:27.719 --> 00:52:27.809
Come
00:52:27.929 --> 00:52:28.949
come on now.
00:52:29.010 --> 00:52:32.909
but the actionable bit of that, obviously I'm going to say he.
00:52:33.012 --> 00:52:38.202
Leads through kindness in a way that I think the world needs more kind leaders.
00:52:38.407 --> 00:52:40.777
Please don't underestimate kindness being a weakness.
00:52:40.806 --> 00:52:48.126
It is not, sometimes it is kind to let somebody go from your business as long as you execute it in the right way.
00:52:48.186 --> 00:52:55.663
he goes through a lot of ups and downs, and when people stab him in the back and all those things, he responds with such kindness.
00:52:55.771 --> 00:52:57.001
And I think we can all learn
00:52:57.226 --> 00:52:57.407
it.
00:52:57.407 --> 00:52:57.646
it.
00:52:57.646 --> 00:53:00.019
it's, it's a beautiful, exemplar of.
00:53:00.494 --> 00:53:06.344
the sort of kindness you've been talking about, we've touched on many ways in which this comes out.
00:53:06.405 --> 00:53:07.215
It, it's hard.
00:53:07.215 --> 00:53:09.418
We don't need it to be more actionable than this.
00:53:09.418 --> 00:53:10.288
People know what it
00:53:11.038 --> 00:53:11.338
Mm-hmm.
00:53:11.338 --> 00:53:11.340
Mm-hmm.
00:53:11.807 --> 00:53:15.197
and the value I concur.
00:53:15.288 --> 00:53:16.967
There's no point discussing that one anymore.
00:53:16.972 --> 00:53:17.507
Tick.
00:53:18.054 --> 00:53:18.367
Great.
00:53:19.277 --> 00:53:19.568
Okay.
00:53:20.307 --> 00:53:22.788
The next one relates to my favorite film.
00:53:23.047 --> 00:53:23.248
yes.
00:53:23.483 --> 00:53:27.003
I'd like everyone to be a little bit more Forests Gump.
00:53:27.681 --> 00:53:30.021
Oh, you see, we could just spend the next
00:53:30.396 --> 00:53:32.166
I could talk about this a long time.
00:53:32.166 --> 00:53:32.677
Um, forests
00:53:32.722 --> 00:53:33.382
Gump is your favorite.
00:53:33.411 --> 00:53:33.831
I mean, it's pretty,
00:53:34.519 --> 00:53:45.992
I think for me, if I was to summarize the Forests Gump, and maybe we'll come back to this, if we do do a part two, is for me, he's the ultimate underdog that lived his life through optimism.
00:53:46.186 --> 00:54:01.889
And he reinvented himself time and time again, and through a sheer work ethic, he, launched a business with shrimps champion pink on player, marathon runner, football player, all through this love that, that he had and this optimism.
00:54:02.016 --> 00:54:08.646
And for me, there will be people in your business today that you can give an opportunity to.
00:54:08.882 --> 00:54:10.563
It might not be the job they're doing today.
00:54:10.563 --> 00:54:12.632
It might be the job they're doing today.
00:54:12.829 --> 00:54:18.545
Look to give opportunities to people and always think about reinvention.
00:54:18.815 --> 00:54:21.016
that's what I mean by be Forrest Gump
00:54:21.255 --> 00:54:25.371
So look to people to enable their reinvention.
00:54:25.916 --> 00:54:26.822
For them.
00:54:26.956 --> 00:54:29.233
But also because you think that's good for the business.
00:54:29.233 --> 00:54:33.103
Cuz you're, you might be allowing them to reinvent themselves outside, but you're talking about inside.
00:54:33.480 --> 00:54:35.940
I think the issue is don't do it.
00:54:35.940 --> 00:54:39.135
If you're not gonna support it's like over promotion.
00:54:39.378 --> 00:54:45.793
you can give people that opportunity, but if you don't have the systems and infrastructure to enable them to thrive,
00:54:46.005 --> 00:54:46.755
a hundred percent.
00:54:46.893 --> 00:54:56.851
I've got a guy that worked with me and not on the High Street He probably reinvented his role every year to 18 months from data to merchandising to digital product.
00:54:56.987 --> 00:54:58.489
He's now the CTO at Huel.
00:54:58.713 --> 00:55:00.213
and he's fantastic, right?
00:55:00.264 --> 00:55:02.244
And that's because he was curious.
00:55:02.590 --> 00:55:04.840
is reinvention important for everybody though?
00:55:04.840 --> 00:55:05.380
I mean,
00:55:05.471 --> 00:55:06.490
it's for your business, I think
00:55:06.510 --> 00:55:08.920
I, I, by the way, I'm a reinventor, right?
00:55:08.920 --> 00:55:10.960
I've I've got a bit of a squiggly career too.
00:55:10.965 --> 00:55:12.585
But for your business, it's important.
00:55:12.746 --> 00:55:14.306
So I think it's two things.
00:55:14.311 --> 00:55:15.596
It's not for everyone and
00:55:15.686 --> 00:55:16.255
that's okay.
00:55:16.496 --> 00:55:18.735
Hundred percent No, no, no.
00:55:18.755 --> 00:55:19.076
A hundred percent.
00:55:19.096 --> 00:55:30.869
But when it comes to opportunities, people that have been from disadvantaged backgrounds they will be carrying a lot of things and they might not put their hand up for things and they might not volunteer in the same way.
00:55:30.869 --> 00:55:33.269
Someone that's come fire a different path will,
00:55:33.644 --> 00:55:39.764
and and this is actually about progression as much than the others and finding the right role for the right people.
00:55:39.764 --> 00:55:44.804
So they may have got to the role they're in because that was the easiest route for them to get to.
00:55:44.992 --> 00:55:50.722
I'm gonna have to say this is not what I'm insisting you put into action right now cause it's gonna be the whole conversation
00:55:51.217 --> 00:55:51.487
Okay.
00:55:51.657 --> 00:55:54.103
My third and final one, I mentioned her earlier.
00:55:54.103 --> 00:55:54.974
Best boss ever.
00:55:55.034 --> 00:55:58.246
Um, is be more Philippa and I'll tell you why.
00:55:58.246 --> 00:56:00.347
And that is all about having fun.
00:56:00.467 --> 00:56:05.887
When I went through that difficult time I went to see her it was probably three, four months in.
00:56:05.947 --> 00:56:08.768
And I went and said, look, I'm this is awful.
00:56:08.951 --> 00:56:10.300
I'm not enjoying it.
00:56:10.590 --> 00:56:11.340
There's no fun.
00:56:11.340 --> 00:56:12.300
Like it's really hot.
00:56:12.300 --> 00:56:16.670
And And she looked at me and said, you are the ceo.
00:56:16.851 --> 00:56:20.034
If you are not having fun, your team aren't having fun.
00:56:20.221 --> 00:56:21.690
I am not gonna make you fun.
00:56:21.900 --> 00:56:23.010
Go and have some fun.
00:56:23.215 --> 00:56:24.655
And she literally said it like that.
00:56:24.684 --> 00:56:25.405
And she said, go.
00:56:25.586 --> 00:56:28.427
And I thought, Oh, that is true.
00:56:28.907 --> 00:56:33.137
And the next week fun, fun-filled teams and people is different.
00:56:33.391 --> 00:56:33.481
Sure.
00:56:33.481 --> 00:56:33.572
But
00:56:33.677 --> 00:56:34.996
next week I remember putting in a
00:56:35.492 --> 00:56:37.831
And, and by the way, the whole d and i agenda needs to be
00:56:37.972 --> 00:56:39.617
very carefully considered, Exactly.
00:56:39.666 --> 00:56:45.891
but for me at that moment, I remember putting in a lunch with a few key members of the team and they were like, what?
00:56:45.891 --> 00:56:47.811
And I said, yeah, let's, let's just go and have some lunch.
00:56:47.811 --> 00:56:48.740
Like, I know it's really difficult.
00:56:48.740 --> 00:56:53.264
And we went and we laughed and it triggered something in me that I'd forgotten.
00:56:53.264 --> 00:56:55.063
It was a key part of my leadership.
00:56:55.063 --> 00:57:05.023
A key part of why people worked with me I was always a person that was work hard, have some fun, and it was in times of real stress.
00:57:05.023 --> 00:57:07.626
And you can feel like zero fun.
00:57:07.813 --> 00:57:15.344
And my advice to you as a c e O if you're listening or a founder is even in hard times, please don't outsource the fun.
00:57:15.344 --> 00:57:16.903
Please don't think, oh, it's fine.
00:57:17.233 --> 00:57:19.094
They've gone off and done X or Y
00:57:19.364 --> 00:57:21.523
and it's not tick the box either.
00:57:21.753 --> 00:57:22.693
Go have fun.
00:57:22.753 --> 00:57:23.204
Yeah.
00:57:23.382 --> 00:57:24.581
fun is different, right?
00:57:24.581 --> 00:57:30.081
Fun is they need to see you as a leader with some happiness and joy and fun.
00:57:30.101 --> 00:57:35.641
Now that can just be walking in the morning and saying a big hello and a happy face, or it can be organizing
00:57:35.838 --> 00:57:40.740
it's Such a common theme for me about the sort of the, the, the misunderstanding of business.
00:57:40.860 --> 00:57:42.554
it is nothing a human endeavor.
00:57:42.559 --> 00:57:43.483
It is a community.
00:57:43.483 --> 00:57:52.831
And I mean, I've, I've, I've come to, to realize many, many years ago I realized that I sort of work is where I get a lot of my community from for various reasons.
00:57:52.831 --> 00:57:59.085
And, and think that came through in, in some of my leadership, but, perhaps not as consciously thinking about it as Philippa.
00:57:59.427 --> 00:58:05.847
And I like that because there were, I can imagine several times of stress where I would not be bringing the fun, I'd be bringing the stress.
00:58:06.387 --> 00:58:06.447
Yeah.
00:58:06.538 --> 00:58:09.597
And it's sort of counterintuitive and counterproductive.
00:58:09.949 --> 00:58:11.480
so yeah, They are my three.
00:58:11.480 --> 00:58:13.898
Be more Ted lasso, be more Forrest Gump.
00:58:13.898 --> 00:58:14.947
And finally be more Philippa.
00:58:15.503 --> 00:58:26.523
We're gonna explore why the pop culture references, but more importantly, DNI and all sorts of things when we catch up for part two, I, I really wish, no, gosh, this would be joyful.
00:58:26.773 --> 00:58:27.733
thank you.
00:58:27.782 --> 00:58:28.893
we don't know each other very well.
00:58:29.103 --> 00:58:34.652
We've, we've had an event and now I feel I know a little bit about you and I'm looking forward to know a lot more about you.
00:58:34.682 --> 00:58:35.373
And Thank you.
00:58:35.378 --> 00:58:38.733
for Your time today, and look forward to the next chat.
00:58:38.853 --> 00:58:40.143
Thank you very much for having me.