WEBVTT
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Thanks very much for joining us on this edition of the Intermodal Logistics Podcast.
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I'm Kevin Baxter with my co-host today, InTech Logistics CEO, Rick Ladore.
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Hey Rick, good to be back.
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And we are happy to have our guest today to talk Drage and the DRAGE market.
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We've talked about Drayage a couple of different episodes, but um not really uh taking the whole temperature of it and and of course uh a different angle that our guest today provides.
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He is the founder of LoadMatch and Drage.com and president of those uh two as well.
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His name is uh Jason Hilsendeck.
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Jason, thanks very much for joining us.
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Hello.
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So uh that was a a little bit of a a primer, but tell us more about yourself.
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We like to get a little uh biography of our guests before we really get into it.
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Tell us more about yourself and and how you got into the industry and how long you've been doing it.
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Yeah, pleasure to be here.
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Thanks for having me.
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Uh I got started actually in 1994.
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I graduated from Western Illinois University with a degree in supply chain management.
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And my career started then, went to work at Gen X, which was an intermodal marketing company in IMC.
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And back in the 90s, there was a lot of IMCs, and then names that you wouldn't recognize now.
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But that's where I got started.
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They hired me, the Middleton brothers hired me to do dispatch intermodal operations, and back then it was 45 and 48-foot rail trailers.
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So that's how I got started with all the there was more class ones, free-running rail trailers, and it was neat to see that the intermodal industry evolve in '94 to uh from 45-foot size trailers to 48-foot containers into 53-foot containers like the EMH to EMP to EMH program.
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And and uh really neat to see that.
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You know, that there was the NAX container program, there was the Stax container program, is a need to see those evolve and disappear.
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I went through the mergers like BN to Santa Fe, the UP to SP, uh, the CN buying the IC, the WC, the EJE.
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Went through the ComRail split up, and uh just can't wait for the UP to take over NS.
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Uh so so tell us about uh loadmatch and drage.com, how you came to uh put those two together and and how how they've been able to last uh stand the test of time really since you did uh found those.
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Thank you.
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Yeah, that was 1999 that I got the websites going, and and that that came out of working and operations at Intermodal Mark at Gen X, the IMC.
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And I mean it was back then before the internet, I mean you used phone books.
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So I I still have a three-ring binder that that I started writing down like in my job, like which Draymond did what and which metro.
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And I still have this day, like you go to Dreyage.com, you click on the map, that City Metro is actually a tab and a three-ring binder.
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And so that's how that got going.
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And uh, I knew I was on to something when the guys in dispatch and and gals, you know, they would ask me, like, hey Jason, uh, where's the Bible?
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I need a trucker in Columbus, Ohio that has a triaxle.
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And I'd hand them that three-ring binder, and I'm like, huh, you know, if we need this and other IMCs need this, and you're using the quick collar guide, yellow pages, and this whole internet website thing was kind of cool.
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So that's how I got the websites going.
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So and load matches the posting board.
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So two quick things, like there's one thing when you need a trucker, you're just trying to find power to get a container out.
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That's the DreyH.com directory.
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And we're at we're down to 4,700 profiles now.
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I had 7800 different Draymond profiles during 2022 time when things are really tight, and we've uh trimmed out a lot of Draymond, so very strict on who gets on there.
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Load match is a posting board.
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So sometimes you want to go find the trucker, contact them, other times you want to post on a board like DAT or truck stop, and that's where you post container loads to move, and the truckers bid on those.
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And they so in other words, load match is where you put something on the board, truckers contact you, drayage.com is the phone book, that's where you contact the truckers.
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That's the difference.
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Yeah, I like uh your your email signature has it very simply laid out for just a quick uh quick primer, basically what you just said there.
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So uh I thought that was uh it's it's nice to be able to boil something down to to its essence in just a few words and and be able to tell people what it is.
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Our business is so complicated as it is.
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Starting out on a clear trajectory is good because it all goes Awire from there.
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So true, so true.
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So um also, I mean, the uh the other piece that we didn't mention, you're uh the director of the intermodal association association of Chicago.
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And uh so so what is IAC and and what does it cover?
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Uh yeah, Intermodal Association of Chicago, it's a nonprofit group, and it's been around since 1961.
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And it was actually called the Piggyback Association back then.
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So when there were rail trailers and they morked to containers, you know, the name got changed to Intermodal Association.
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And that job, I'm proud of the group.
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There, I mean, their job is to provide uh a way of networking with all the providers of Intermodal in Chicago, the truckers, the vendors, the railroads, the ocean lines, the shippers, IMCs, freight brokers.
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Provide that communication in a in a networking format.
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And it's uh I would would love to go more into it, like how we'd like to improve the Chicago community, but it's really tough dealing with class one railroads, they're private entities.
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You know, they own the terminals, it's not like the ports where you know a port authority can dictate to a terminal operator or an ocean line or a vessel operator what they should do.
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You know, the railroads control everything.
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So we can complain and and uh and all that stuff, but it at least we provide a networking so networking opportunities for all those companies to communicate.
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So part of that, you have a uh your largest meeting or an annual meeting in in March of every year.
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And if I remember right, so and then in March, you come out with this big study or report that talks about who owns the containers, who's gaining more containers, who's backing out of the industry or backing away from purchasing containers.
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You basically give an overall picture of what's going on.
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Is there some things that that you can share um about or what do you've seen um in the last report and maybe some changes that have already happened?
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Oh yeah.
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I've been doing an annual update for I don't know gosh, 13, 14 years.
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Oh, and also, Rick, I gotta point out that that meeting is around 300 people, but our biggest meeting is the December holiday party, the prom, the trucker prom, which is 1200.
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We limit it to 1200 people.
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Okay.
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That's actually our biggest meeting, but it's just you know a dinner party.
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But that's how important networking is, you know, communication one-on-one.
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You know, people flying from all over the country to attend that December holiday party with 1,200 people.
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In March, I do an annual update, and I the takeaway from March was the the container fleet count, just my uh the two big things I do are the the drayage outlook and the 53-foot container fleet outlook.
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And on the 53-foot fleets, very important to know that again, JB Hunt and Amazon added 53-foot containers to their fleets.
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They added 7,900 containers in one year time.
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Just those two companies.
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Everybody else didn't add, or if they added to replace their uh their uh containers that came out of their fleets.
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And the other takeaway is again JBHunt Amazon added, and again, the EMH UMAX program declined.
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And it was they declined 2900, 2200.
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So the the Umax fleet reduced again by 2200 containers, so that's 3900 for Umax and 3736 for EMH.
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So if you're in other words, if you're a BCO shipper, you have plenty of 53 foot capacity with the private fleet owners, they have they have two-thirds of the marketplace.
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There's 373,000 53 foot containers in the US fleets.
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I'm not counting the Canadian fleet or the Mexican fleets, so that's why TTX, their number is bigger.
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But for the US marketplace, 373,000 and so yeah, if you're if you're an IMC like you guys are, Rick, I mean you're your available capacity is declining with the railroad-owned network of boxes.
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And it's been a bit since they've added to the fleet, correct?
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They haven't added in over a 10 year decade.
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Yeah, it's been a bit.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, so it uh but you know you've got CLC logistics, you know, on the BNSF.
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So they've added that, I mean, they've they're at 8,8500 containers.
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So you've got that marketplace, and who knows what's gonna happen if this merger goes through.
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We'll talk about you know, future stuff later, I know.
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Right, right, right.
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Well, I mean, how has uh as as you look at the container mix?
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I mean, you talked about the the declines and and the uh the gains there, how has that changed since you've been uh first following that uh that count, uh, as you said, about uh what 15 years ago or so?
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Oh my gosh, it's triple in size in 14 years.
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We were at a hundred and fifteen thousand containers in the US probably f 14, 15 years ago.
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And I mean the containers you and the reason is is because contain 53-foot containers are cheap.
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I mean, the wheels aren't attached, so it's cheap to build a box.
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They were well cheap back then.
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And you had to transition away from trailers on flat cars to containers on flat cars, so so that's why the container count has tripled in the past decade and a half.
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So there's I I what's really important as you know, Rick, is that there might be 370,000 containers, but how many are actually available for use?
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I mean, how many are stacked?
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So like so that's really the question.
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And uh I'd I'd say I mean rock 53 foot intermole is rocking and rolling.
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And yes, you know, so I'd I mean you talk to COC logistics, and I think they're at their all-time biggest use of their containers.
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Very few are stacked, and they're getting good utilization.
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So it's a really neat time with the 53-foot container marketplace.
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Yes, it is.
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Um, because yes, a lot of stuff was stacked between July 2022 and the first of this year.
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Um well, actually, but even before that they start on stacking.
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So yeah, it's good to see them all back in circulation or pretty close to all back in circulation, and still see price increasing thanks to what's going on in the trucking market.
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Yeah, amen.
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Love it.
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Also, speaking of the trucking market and we're speaking of of drainage, obviously, um we we've heard a lot of stuff uh in the the overall general space about uh trucking capacity declining, uh all of the regulations that have uh affected things.
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Um, but we haven't really talked uh on this podcast at least too much about the um how that's affected drainage.
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Uh and obviously uh I I think it's it's pretty common knowledge out there that that drainage capacity is a little tighter too.
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So so where is that uh at this point?
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What were you seeing in March and and how has that uh continued forward?
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Oh yes.
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Yeah, the all the enforcement and the crackdown is is taking out driver capacity.
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But as you know, with drayage driver, the capacity of that marketplace is a small subset of the overall you know CDL drivers out there.
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And the way you can track it with with rail drayage is the U Intermodal Association North America, IANA runs the UIIA Uniform Intermodal Interchange Agreement program.
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And within the UIIA, they register driver names.
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That's the Intermodal Driver Database IDD.
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And with the IDD, the numbers were at 470.
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Let me get this right for you here.
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I wrote that down.
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Starting out, they had four this year, end of January, 470,000.
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Where is it?
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470,000 or so.
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They're at 460 right now, dropped by about 20,000 drivers in the past six months or so.
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So that so yeah, that that has taken out some drivers.
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Uh the English language enforcement, non-domicile, so yeah, that that has affected capacity, but it's come back up.
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It actually came back up in this at the end of June.
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So it it's interesting that as demand goes up and dray rates go up, that you know, driver capacity comes back into the marketplace.
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So it dropped from January to March, 460,000.
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Yeah, it's it's so we went back up to 467,000 at the end of June.
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Four set 482, 482,000 drivers in December, 473 in January, went down to 460 in April, back up to 467,000.
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So yeah, driver capacity comes back when the rates go up.
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Yeah, that's that's super interesting because a lot of the stuff that I've been reading about the trucking side of things is that when we lose these drivers based off of these regulations, this unlike other market uh other times when you know um business goes down, these people leave the market and then they eventually wait to the rates to come back up again and then they come back in, and during that period of time, you know, they're either working in the construction side or just a whole bunch of other things they can be doing.
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And so the the conversations I've been hearing is that well, uh, this all has to do with regulations if these folks are illegal in some form of what some form of fashion and they're not coming back.
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Your data says that on the driver's side, what always happens rates go down, people exit the market, rates come up, people come back in the market.
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Yeah, um, and it's uh and it says that that pattern is is holding steady.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, like we're at 467, and during the pandemic times, it peaked at 591,000.
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That's how many drivers were registered doing rail drage during the peak back in the pandemic time.
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591,000 drivers.
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And it went, we were down to 460 two months ago, came back up to 467 end of June.
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So uh there are plenty of skilled human beings out there that are qualified to drive trucks, and they will do it if the money's there.
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Now, hopefully, the ones that aren't skilled, like this is my biggest beef with this whole okay, this whole crap with driver shortage.
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Like when I started in '94, first thing I heard when I got out of college in that seat doing dispatch, oh, there's a driver shortage.
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I remember being with uh with Dave Manning at TCW on a panel at Anna like like back in 2005, there's a driver shortage.
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Well, guess what?
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We relaxed all those rules to fill the driver shortage with visas from overseas folks to come in and drive trucks.
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We there was lax schooling for these drivers to get trained.
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There's lax DMV uh when you get your driver's license, you got to go to a DMV and get inspected.
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The DMV folks are lax at qualifying drivers.
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So it's not where they're born, it's how their skill is at driving trucks.
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So somehow with the driver shortage, we let the skill level decline.
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And that's what really gets me.
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So, but I'm I'm telling you, there is plenty of skilled human beings that can speak English and understand signs that will drive trucks if the money's there.
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And so even with the the fact that the the numbers have come back up a bit uh during the year, there are certain markets that are especially dealing with some some tightness.
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I know you had um uh you posted in June about uh Savannah being, I think that was that the most uh difficult market uh at the time uh for drage capacity.
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Yeah, Savannah and Houston, they are they're just popping, and they still are.
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And this is the other part with driver capacity, it's very tied to how efficient terminals are at processing drivers.
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So, I mean, if you think about I I do a whole I've done this before where like for a Savannah, their issue was increased volumes and slower turn times in the terminal for the drivers, so longer time the drivers there.
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And if you think about Savannah, they had some issues processing drivers and they do about they hover between 12 and 15,000 gate transactions per day.
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And I think they got up to 17,000, don't quote me on that, but I remember talking to a guy there uh a couple months ago and they they're booming.
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So think about it, if there's 15,000 gate transactions, drivers going to and from the gate, and say in that time that they're spent in the terminal, whether it's a rail or port terminal, 15,000 times 10 extra minutes per driver per transaction, that's 150,000 extra minutes per day.
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That's 2,500 driver hours.
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So same number of drivers, but you just extended their hours of service by 2,500 over 15,000 transactions.
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So driver drayage capacity comes down to how fast terminals process the drivers.
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Just like when they get out on the street to the warehouse, if they're stuck at a warehouse, driver delays, unloading or loading.
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You know, if they're dropping, not such a big deal.
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But terminal productivity is the number one determinant of drayage driver capacity.
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So uh Savannah, and you said Houston as well, is that kind of a similar issue or or was theirs a little bit different?
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That well, there's always volume, you know.
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You can't discount the volume.
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I mean, if there's more volume of containers to move, you need more hours to get those containers out.
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But you know, if a d if a terminal processes one container every hour versus a hundred containers every hour, that's what where driver capacity is either sucked up or becomes efficient.
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And a couple of stats are these are from last night.
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So Savannah is still in the Savannah, this is the port side.
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Oh, I I completely forgot to qualify that intermodal is split between ocean side and domestic 53-foot side.
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So when we're talking about drayage demand, we're talking about port drayage here with Savannah and Houston.
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Dallas is the screwed up part for a 53-foot intermodal right now.
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But in Savannah, past 60 days, 125,000 clicks were made in 60 days on Savannah.
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Houston came in at 105,000.
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This is what I think is so interesting.
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If you think about the volumes of LA Long Beach, they're at 104,000 compared to Savannah at 125,000 clicks in 60 days.
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So Savannah's, you know, a fifth the size, or I shouldn't say fifth, but comes in fourth or fifth after LA Long Beach, because you know, it depends if you combine LA Long Beach or not.
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But LA Long Beach, incredible volumes, just really great numbers of volumes coming in the ports, and they're doing a great job turning the drivers.
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And so we don't see as many clicks looking for Dre Dreyage driver capacity at LA Long Beach because they're kicking butt.
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They're really processing drivers fast.
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I mean, there's always exceptions.
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So that's LA Long Beach doing great.
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Savannah Houston, the number of uh the time it's taking and the volume is sucking up capacity.
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That's the most number one click in Chicago's been nuts.
00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:58.880
So 104,000 clicks for LA Long Beach, 102,000 for Chicago Drage.
00:21:59.279 --> 00:21:59.759
So Chicago.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:02.319
Chicago's been tough to get Dreage capacity to.
00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:04.400
And that's both style of boxes.
00:22:04.640 --> 00:22:06.720
Big box and small box.
00:22:09.039 --> 00:22:18.799
Yeah, so just backing up, I didn't explain this, but uh, but the the clicks you're talking about uh on Dreyage.com, this is how you're tracking uh the activity.
00:22:19.119 --> 00:22:28.000
Yeah, on the DreyH.com website, it's a directory, and I feel like most people have other things to do with their life than go looking on the Dre list.
00:22:28.319 --> 00:22:36.000
So if they're hitting the DreH.com site, clicking on a metro, it probably means they're looking for a capacity or a rate.
00:22:36.160 --> 00:22:38.240
So there's a demand of some sort.
00:22:38.559 --> 00:22:48.160
So we infer that if there's a click because they're clicking on, and these are actual human-made clicks, they're logged in, so they're not this is all human-made, not AI.
00:22:49.039 --> 00:22:54.160
And we believe that they're clicking on a metro, they're needing drayage, so there's a demand for something.
00:22:55.039 --> 00:22:56.240
And so those are the hotspots.
00:22:56.400 --> 00:23:01.039
Savannah, Houston, LA, Chicago, New York, in that order.
00:23:02.240 --> 00:23:04.160
And oh there is a caveat though.
00:23:04.240 --> 00:23:09.920
So just because there's a number of clicks doesn't mean that's necessarily a most stressed metro.
00:23:10.079 --> 00:23:15.839
The most stressed metro right now is Dallas, like Alliance, like a Haslett and Dallas ramps.
00:23:16.720 --> 00:23:40.720
And what I mean by that is in that same 60-day time period, we've got 37,000 clicks made on Dallas Fort Worth, but because the marketplace is smaller and there's fewer Draymond in that marketplace, if you take the number of clicks made on a city metro versus the number of draymens that serve that metro, Dallas by far is the most difficult to find at drayage capacity.
00:23:41.359 --> 00:23:45.519
And that's that's due to both style of boxes, big box and small box.
00:23:46.640 --> 00:23:48.079
So the that's the most stress.
00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:53.039
Nashville's under that, then Houston, then Phoenix of all places.
00:23:53.279 --> 00:23:54.880
They're UP's doing a great job.
00:23:54.960 --> 00:24:02.240
And I think being a self of running ocean boxes into the Phoenix Metro because we've had a lot of demand for that local drayage.
00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:10.319
So if you're a Draymond out there, Phoenix and Nashville are where you want to open up your next drayage locations, your drayage terminals.
00:24:10.559 --> 00:24:11.759
I can speak for Phoenix.
00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:15.920
We've picked up quite a bit of business out of Phoenix and sitting out in operations.
00:24:16.079 --> 00:24:17.359
That's uh yeah.
00:24:17.680 --> 00:24:18.240
I know, Rick.
00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:19.039
I mean, I hear a lot.
00:24:19.279 --> 00:24:26.319
I wish in our business we could I get asked by like Evans and the other agencies, like, hey, where should we put drivers in?
00:24:26.400 --> 00:24:29.200
And I and I'm like, these are the metros that are hot right now.
00:24:29.359 --> 00:24:31.200
I'm like, well, we don't know if it's gonna last.
00:24:31.359 --> 00:24:33.279
I'm like, I don't either, but you're asking.
00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:46.000
So Alex, Nashville, Phoenix are the small metros where if you're a drage terminal, Dreage operator with drivers, that's where you want to set up shop right now.
00:24:47.759 --> 00:25:04.319
And so overall, the the numbers on on Dreyage demand, I think uh the the report that you had at the end of June was talking about uh demand being a little bit down going into the the 4th of July as a as a nationwide uh number.
00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:06.960
But uh yeah, it's back up.
00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:08.160
We're right back up.
00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:11.279
Yeah, it it's it's really at a high level.
00:25:11.440 --> 00:25:13.759
I believe we're at, let me take a look here.
00:25:16.240 --> 00:25:26.480
It's been stable over the past four weeks, just two percent up, but over the past six months, we're 27% higher demand in the past six months.
00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:36.960
So if you go back, you know, earlier the part of the year, we're 27% higher number of clicks nationwide looking for drage capacity, big box and small box.
00:25:37.839 --> 00:25:44.559
So lots of demand, less capacity for the driver's side, more volume, higher demand.
00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:48.960
Do you have a split between what is the big box and what's the small box?
00:25:49.279 --> 00:25:50.799
Um, in terms of drage capacity.
00:25:51.519 --> 00:25:57.359
In the directory, if I could get everybody to identify what they're actually looking for, I could do that.
00:25:57.599 --> 00:26:10.640
But I just I just know that, like with you guys or another IMC, like if you click on a metro, I can see the filters you're looking at, but oftentimes they just click and I don't really know what they're looking for.
00:26:10.720 --> 00:26:15.519
I just know they clicked on a Draymond profile in Chicago or wherever.
00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:24.319
But yeah, that'd be really interesting, you know, to see it would be to see what's going on because I mean for us, we're moving 53s, and then we also play in the repo market.
00:26:24.480 --> 00:26:36.000
Um, so we're we're moving a lot of 40s as well from inland out to the coast, take advantage of those uh ISO boxes that we can pick up some good rates and and move some heavier product.
00:26:36.240 --> 00:26:42.000
Yeah, yeah, that's a great thing to do if you can repo do domestic loading on the ocean boxes.
00:26:42.240 --> 00:26:50.640
But yeah, if I can get everybody to tell me what they're really looking for, it'd be awesome to describe as an industry what's really hot and what's not.
00:26:52.079 --> 00:26:53.599
I'm sure it'll come.
00:26:54.720 --> 00:26:56.000
Everybody wants more data.
00:26:56.319 --> 00:26:57.519
Everybody wants more data.
00:26:57.839 --> 00:27:02.400
And and uh and uh a lot of the stuff that with AI is is really driving people.
00:27:02.640 --> 00:27:03.680
Oh, I can do this now.
00:27:03.839 --> 00:27:05.839
Oh, if I could just have that one more piece.
00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:08.480
Oh that'll fit that'll figure everything out.
00:27:08.799 --> 00:27:21.680
I'll tell you what, on the driver capacity side, like the one thing I would love to do is that when I tell you there's 462,000 or 467,000 drayage drivers, that's just the rail number.
00:27:21.920 --> 00:27:29.759
No one has ever put together, like in the port of LA Long Beach, there's 20 some thousand drivers registered to do port drage.
00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:31.519
That's different than the rail drage.
00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:35.920
But some of those drivers registered at the port also do rail.
00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:52.240
And so I'm guessing, like for example, in Chicago, we calculated between big box turns or gate transactions that there's probably 22,000 drivers that do drage in Chicago, big box and small box.
00:27:52.319 --> 00:27:56.319
That includes JB Hunt, FedEx, all the ocean box guys.
00:27:56.720 --> 00:28:05.839
And if you think about LA Long Beach, they've got harbor trucking says that they've got 20 some thousand driver names registered with the port.
00:28:06.319 --> 00:28:09.599
About 15,000 of those are active every day.
00:28:10.079 --> 00:28:13.200
Maybe you combine another like 5,000 doing rail drayage.
00:28:13.359 --> 00:28:21.279
So I think Chicago marketplace and then you combine the drayage of ocean port terminals and rail terminals.
00:28:21.440 --> 00:28:26.079
I think Chicago and LA are about the same in volume for drayage drivers.
00:28:26.319 --> 00:28:32.640
So those are the stats I would love to see as a business, as our industry put together the whole picture.
00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:34.400
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
00:28:34.720 --> 00:28:38.400
Anyway, I guess me too.
00:28:38.720 --> 00:28:41.440
So so yeah, tell us a little bit more uh about Chicago.
00:28:41.599 --> 00:28:58.160
I mean, I think uh anyone involved in intermodal knows how um important Chicago is, but uh as like as a 20,000-foot view of uh of what happens in Chicago uh in terms of drayage and and how it links everything uh with intermodal.
00:28:58.240 --> 00:29:00.240
Tell us tell us about how how unique it is.
00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:02.480
Wow, Chicago's amazing.
00:29:02.960 --> 00:29:20.480
And uh as you or people probably in this podcast or watching knows that Chicago's nuts with all the terminals because you've got, depending on how you count the terminals, I say 14 between the big box domestic 53 intermodal terminals and the ocean box terminals.
00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:30.880
And it's 60 58 miles from way south at BNSF Elwood to get to the CPKC up in Bensonville, so nearly 60 miles spread.
00:29:31.759 --> 00:29:35.920
And some terminals are blended between big box and small box.
00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:53.039
Some terminals are grounded, meaning the box gets put on the ground truck or pixel chassis, and then it gets complicated with these terminals like UP and D N SF that on okay all big boxes are wheeled, hopefully, on good sets of wheels.
00:29:54.079 --> 00:29:56.640
The ocean box is what makes it challenging.
00:29:56.799 --> 00:30:13.039
So if you're uh doing imports or exports through Chicago, that's where it gets nuts because you don't know well, you should know if the wheels are provided or if the trucker needs to provide it, if it's gonna be grounded, if there's a lift flee or lift fee or a chassis split.
00:30:13.920 --> 00:30:19.599
So Chicago's spread out multiple everywhere, every all class ones come here.
00:30:20.079 --> 00:30:21.920
So you've got that that blend.
00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:32.319
And so between the distance, the the sheer amount of domestic and ocean box volume, and the big metro long haul drayage happens out of here.
00:30:32.400 --> 00:30:35.359
You got short haul, long haul to Wisconsin, Ohio.
00:30:35.599 --> 00:30:38.079
So really great place to do intermodal.
00:30:40.799 --> 00:30:45.519
And uh so with let's let's get back to the the merger.
00:30:45.599 --> 00:30:50.319
We we talked about it a little bit uh already with the the container question.
00:30:50.480 --> 00:31:04.079
Um one of the things that the the merger is talking about is uh is keeping uh like a single line situation for um those two entities uh going forward, UP and NS.
00:31:04.160 --> 00:31:12.000
So uh what do you see as as the implications of that if it if it does go through for Chicago and for Intermodal overall?
00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:17.200
Well, it's we're talking about future stuff here, so we don't know what's being said will actually turn true.
00:31:17.359 --> 00:31:21.839
But you know, with any merger you want to consolidate, you want to reduce costs.
00:31:22.160 --> 00:31:32.960
So I mean they are UP has said that they would close one or two of the the NS terminals and consolidate, which I could, you know, I can I can see that happening.
00:31:33.119 --> 00:31:41.039
And you know, UP might close you know, like Dalton or something to consolidate to you know to another NS terminal.
00:31:41.119 --> 00:31:55.119
So yeah, there'll be some consolidation of terminals, and uh which drives me nuts because if you're trying to expand intermodal volumes, you need terminal footprint, and a lot of these terminals are locked in.
00:31:55.200 --> 00:31:59.839
So they talk about closing terminals, which means reducing terminal footprint.
00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:12.240
I don't know how you can grow intermodal volume if you don't have more terminal space to process the volume, so that fundamentally certainly slows down the processing that we were just talking about earlier in terms of how long it takes you to get through a ramp.
00:32:12.880 --> 00:32:19.680
It was this is a side note, but I was at BNSF Alliance and there's actually diminishing returns of scale.
00:32:19.839 --> 00:32:38.880
So, like the at BNSF Alliance, they said they have a possibility of expanding even further north, but it takes so long within that terminal to get to process way north to come south to the entrance that they feel like it might be better to have a separate terminal to process another customer.
00:32:39.440 --> 00:32:51.440
And I think that's fascinating because you can get too big and it takes so long the transaction time of lifting off the train and all the yard jocking and all the dragage driver traffic.
00:32:51.759 --> 00:33:00.319
So so fundamentally, I it's like if you're gonna shrink terminal footprint, but you want to grow intermodal volume, I don't see how you can do both of those.
00:33:02.160 --> 00:33:05.599
Well, you go ahead and take it, I mean you've got there's limiting factors.
00:33:05.680 --> 00:33:10.000
I mean, so you got you got terminal space, then also boxes.
00:33:10.799 --> 00:33:18.880
There's if we're gonna go ahead and increase the total number of of intermodal moves, more investment needs to be made in boxes.
00:33:19.119 --> 00:33:24.640
Um because well, there's just so many, there's only so many turns you can do in a box.
00:33:24.799 --> 00:33:33.759
And so if you start looking at some of the numbers that uh are being thrown out there, it it's really hard to fathom how that's gonna happen without bringing more boxes into the market.
00:33:33.920 --> 00:33:34.000
Yeah.
00:33:34.160 --> 00:33:34.480
I don't know.
00:33:34.640 --> 00:33:35.440
Do you have any thoughts on that?
00:33:35.519 --> 00:33:37.119
Consider you track that all the time.
00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:39.759
Yeah, I I hear what you're saying.
00:33:39.920 --> 00:33:53.680
I mean, it you to bring to add more intermodal volume, you need more box capacity, you need the chassis too, you need the well cars, and you need the lift machines, and of course the labor to operate all this stuff.
00:33:54.000 --> 00:33:56.559
So it those are big investments.
00:33:56.720 --> 00:34:08.159
You don't are huge investments, and and a lot of the things that we talk about, or at least I talk about a lot, is that um drage is drage is where the is typically where the issue happens.
00:34:08.239 --> 00:34:16.639
It's either at at the ramp itself or it is at uh at the dock you're you're bumping um either at the origin or the destination.
00:34:16.880 --> 00:34:26.000
For the most part, the rail is is pretty on time with their stuff, but there's that there's capacity constraints and and various other factors.
00:34:26.320 --> 00:34:28.400
Where do I get my where do I get my chassis?
00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:32.079
Where do I get and it just continually rolls all around?
00:34:32.159 --> 00:34:46.400
Um and this topic that we're having right now in terms of talking about trade is usually one that isn't discussed much because we're when you read you read the articles, we're always talking about 12 times train speeds, yada yada yada.
00:34:46.559 --> 00:34:53.599
But in the end, uh in an intermodal move, there's three moves, and two of them usually don't get discussed much.
00:34:53.679 --> 00:34:58.960
So I'm glad we're sitting here talking about it today because it's kind of the forgotten part in a lot of cases.
00:34:59.280 --> 00:34:59.599
Yeah.
00:34:59.840 --> 00:35:05.840
I would I would love to see IANA start publishing, in addition to train speed, driver processing times.
00:35:06.079 --> 00:35:21.440
I like to see how long it's actually taking per driver at every terminal, and and have an idea of like if I'm routing my cargo, ocean or domestic, and I have a choice of routing different railroads, I would love to know the driver processing times.
00:35:21.920 --> 00:35:37.360
Just as like like I see train speed or schedules of like here's when you in-gate and here's an out gate, there's a published time, I'd like to see how much time it takes for the driver to get through that particular ex that specific terminal.
00:35:38.079 --> 00:35:39.599
So I'd love to see IANA do that.
00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:52.079
And we have and the railroads have all that data, and the ocean ports, you know, they because they're they're they're they're entity owned, they can dictate that that that driver turn time data is published.
00:35:52.159 --> 00:35:53.440
But I'd love to see that happen.
00:35:54.079 --> 00:36:09.440
You know, if I have a choice, I'd like to route my containers on the most efficient railroad network with the most efficient terminals, and that terminal transaction time is a reflection of chassis availability and the speed at driver processing.
00:36:11.519 --> 00:36:16.880
Well, so speaking of of chassis availability, I know Chicago has had challenges with that.
00:36:17.199 --> 00:36:27.440
Where where are we at now in terms of that availability and uh uh uh how things have gone with with cost and accessibility to both of those?
00:36:28.880 --> 00:36:39.840
I'd say on the 53-foot side, I feel like I mean I see the complaints about you know 53-foot chassis under boxes that need to be repaired.
00:36:40.239 --> 00:36:48.800
That seems to be happening more frequently, but overall it feels like most 53-foot boxes are being mounted automatically wheeled like they should.
00:36:49.519 --> 00:36:51.920
On the ocean box side, oh that's a whole nother thing.
00:36:52.960 --> 00:37:01.840
And uh, you know, UP's been having problems with the small boxes, the 20s and 40s, because they automatically wheel.
00:37:02.639 --> 00:37:13.280
And and I'm gonna say this, I have no shame in saying this, but you know, the union the railroads for the most part pay a contractor to pick out a chassis.
00:37:13.679 --> 00:37:16.159
That's really their job on wheeled facilities.
00:37:16.239 --> 00:37:25.760
And the contractor that operates a terminal on behalf of the railroad does not care the condition of the wheels that are placed underneath the boxes.
00:37:26.239 --> 00:37:34.639
And of course they claim it's not their job because every chassis should be perfect, you know, but you know that nothing's ever perfect.
00:37:35.199 --> 00:37:55.760
So that's what's happened is that as volumes pick up and the dwell time increases, so just like driver productivity, if the dwell time, the time it takes for that chassis to come back, or the time that the container's sitting on a chassis in the terminal as the dwell time goes up, you need more chassis to cover that delay.
00:37:57.039 --> 00:38:01.599
So yeah, on the ocean box side, on wheel facilities, there's been a problem with the NSF UP.
00:38:02.800 --> 00:38:12.480
But uh like I remind folks, on the ocean box side, you know, those are the only two rails that automatically wheel ocean boxes.
00:38:13.280 --> 00:38:22.719
CN, CPKC, CSX, Norfolk Southern, they all ground ocean boxes and it's the trucker's choice to bring a chassis.
00:38:23.199 --> 00:38:34.239
And there aren't I shouldn't say there's always issues, but there's aren't issues of finding ocean box chassis on the grounded facilities because the truckers got those.
00:38:34.800 --> 00:38:39.519
And they will take the boxes off if they have to to free up a chassis outside the terminal.
00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:49.760
So it's the UP and VNSF that are on the old way of doing ocean boxes of wheeling per their ocean lines request.
00:38:53.440 --> 00:38:56.400
So uh one other Chicago note.
00:38:56.480 --> 00:39:16.079
Uh the um uh a few years ago, back uh when things were going kind of crazy on on the freight side of things, uh you had a uh report of uh$12 million uh for Chicago Draymond in uh in one month in 2021 for uh just ramp storage fees.
00:39:16.239 --> 00:39:20.000
So um how how does that differ from like a typical month?
00:39:20.079 --> 00:39:22.400
And and where are we at uh today?
00:39:23.599 --> 00:39:24.960
I don't know, Kevin.
00:39:25.039 --> 00:39:38.960
I'm telling you, that getting people to reveal how much they paid in ramp storage was I was honored that people trust me to with their data, and I value trust and integrity in this business more than anything.
00:39:39.280 --> 00:39:52.239
So I had plenty of people that divulged to me how much they spent either to the railroad directly or to the ocean lines, made sure that wasn't overlapping, and that was incredible how much money spayed.
00:39:52.639 --> 00:40:18.639
But wouldn't it be interesting if you calculated the total number of volume of domestic containers through Chicago, the total number of ocean box containers that arrive in Chicago that would be subject to ramp storage, and say you added you take that total number of millions of containers, there was seven hundred I think we're at seven million lifts per year, seven point five million lifts in Chicago.
00:40:19.199 --> 00:40:22.320
It varies up and down, but that's how much volume happens in Chicago.
00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:42.800
So if you if those seven million lifts per year, and say you take a quarter of those and tack on whatever ramp storage you want to make, you know, 200 bucks, you know, 150 dollars a day, 200 bucks a day, depending on the rail, and then add that up.
00:40:42.960 --> 00:40:48.880
I mean, I that's a sizeable amount of money that the railroads and ocean lines make on storage.
00:40:50.960 --> 00:40:51.679
Yeah, it'd be interesting.
00:40:51.760 --> 00:40:53.440
That's another thing IANA could do.
00:40:53.599 --> 00:40:59.599
Maybe just like the cash reporting index on how much LTL companies get paid on their payables.
00:40:59.679 --> 00:41:07.519
Maybe we'd say all the IMCs and the the importers were like, how much money did you spend in storage last month?
00:41:07.840 --> 00:41:08.880
And just tallied up.
00:41:09.119 --> 00:41:10.239
Be interesting, wouldn't it?
00:41:10.400 --> 00:41:12.000
I mean, would be interesting.
00:41:12.159 --> 00:41:18.559
It's it's one of the reasons why uh some shippers shy away from intermodal because of those unknown fees that they they might get hit.
00:41:18.719 --> 00:41:20.639
Oh, you know, you get fancy splits.
00:41:21.119 --> 00:41:25.840
Yeah, you you yeah, it's like various fees, a lot of various accessorials.
00:41:26.079 --> 00:41:35.920
Some some shippers have gotten burned in the past and their IMC hasn't helped them through the process, and um either pulling it from the ramp if there happens to be a storage to a uh a yard that would be cheaper.
00:41:36.320 --> 00:41:38.400
Um there's all kinds of different things.
00:41:38.800 --> 00:41:39.679
Yeah, yeah.
00:41:40.880 --> 00:41:42.320
Yeah, so there's all kinds of things.
00:41:42.800 --> 00:41:46.400
Those types of things kind of kind of kind of scare some shippers away.
00:41:46.559 --> 00:41:46.719
Yeah.
00:41:47.199 --> 00:41:53.840
Just the the the water cooler stories and copier stories that are head um at those those areas in the office.
00:41:53.920 --> 00:41:55.840
And oh no, I'm never gonna do intermodal.
00:41:56.000 --> 00:42:03.360
I'm I we I still run across those um those chippers and and those stories uh when we try to you know transition people off a truck.
00:42:03.519 --> 00:42:05.760
No, I'm not going there for for those reasons.
00:42:06.000 --> 00:42:06.320
Yeah.
00:42:06.559 --> 00:42:08.719
Well, Rick, your people do a great job though.
00:42:08.800 --> 00:42:15.119
I mean, they know like when if you ship on a Monday from LA and you're going to Chicago, it's gonna arrive on a Friday probably.
00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:23.519
So you try to guide your customer into like, hey, can you postpone to like a Wednesday so it gets there for a Monday delivery because you're still doing the same?
00:42:23.840 --> 00:42:24.159
Right.
00:42:24.320 --> 00:42:37.920
So but yeah, that's your that's your role in in this business is to guide these folks on how to save money on intermodal transportation, but doing it in a schedule in a way that that works for the intermodal network to reduce those costs.
00:42:38.159 --> 00:42:40.719
So that's why that's it's so critical.
00:42:41.119 --> 00:42:49.840
Yeah, I mean a lot of folks that that try to transition from truck to intermodal, they go into it thinking, okay, the box is basically the same size and yada yada yada.
00:42:50.239 --> 00:42:55.440
But it what what we like to say is it's you know, intermodal is truck-like, it's not exactly like truck.
00:42:55.519 --> 00:43:04.400
So there's things that you need to know about the intermodal service, the intermodal network, and the various pieces and parts um, so you can be successful.
00:43:04.480 --> 00:43:08.719
Um, because if you just go into it just saying, okay, it's exactly like truck, boom, I'm done.
00:43:08.960 --> 00:43:11.840
You're gonna that's when you do get yourself in trouble.
00:43:12.079 --> 00:43:13.119
Yeah, yeah.
00:43:13.280 --> 00:43:24.719
That's why there's always gonna be a need for a third party to to minimize or maximize the value of doing intermodal, big box or small box.
00:43:25.840 --> 00:43:26.800
Certainly hope so.
00:43:27.039 --> 00:43:28.639
That's what keeps our doors open.
00:43:29.119 --> 00:43:31.920
Yeah, yeah, knowledge is amazing.
00:43:33.039 --> 00:43:36.960
So, so as the year continues, we are more than halfway through.
00:43:37.039 --> 00:43:48.159
Uh, what what do you think is is where things are heading in terms of of drage capacity and volume as uh as we get through the the rest of 2026 um and even beyond.
00:43:48.239 --> 00:43:53.360
We like we like to ask any any anybody who's following um the numbers kind of what their thoughts are.
00:43:53.519 --> 00:43:53.840
Yeah.
00:43:54.079 --> 00:43:57.599
Well, gosh, back in March, I I was wrong.
00:43:57.760 --> 00:44:02.960
Like I told this group, I'm like, I I can't see uh the consumer spending continuing.
00:44:03.119 --> 00:44:05.440
I didn't know the Iran war was gonna happen.
00:44:05.840 --> 00:44:09.760
So I was thinking it was gonna be a muted year, and then look at what happened.
00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:14.960
You've got the tariff thing, the forced labor that's bumping up import volumes.
00:44:15.039 --> 00:44:19.360
You've got trend the high diesels causing the shift to 53 foot enter modal.
00:44:19.679 --> 00:44:23.440
You got transload volume happening because of the the import push.
00:44:23.920 --> 00:44:27.760
So I I didn't see this coming in March, and March was five months ago.
00:44:29.599 --> 00:44:39.920
So I think for the rest of the year, I I can't see anything changing unless in some miraculous way diesel comes down and and there's a driver supply on the over-the-road side that comes back.
00:44:40.079 --> 00:44:44.719
I think domestic intermodals are gonna remain strong for the rest of the year.
00:44:45.760 --> 00:44:48.079
I'm still surprised by import volumes.
00:44:48.400 --> 00:44:55.119
You know, I keep thinking data center construction is gonna peter out and the whole AI bubble's gonna burst, and that hasn't happened yet.
00:44:56.000 --> 00:45:01.679
You know, and and home construction's not that great, so that's not contributing, but yeah, we got all this volume.
00:45:02.320 --> 00:45:09.519
So I mean if interest rates rise at the end of the year, is that going to is that when the bubbles are gonna burst?
00:45:10.800 --> 00:45:26.960
In other words, I don't know, but I feel like I feel like rage driver capacity will come back will will need to come back if the rate's pay enough, the drivers will come back, and they and I believe now there will be more qualified skill drivers than ever.
00:45:27.440 --> 00:45:40.639
And I think as an IMC or freight rover just like you vet over the road carriers, you need to vet your dramen, and so that's gonna be pressure on the drain who don't need those thresholds for safety.
00:45:41.519 --> 00:45:53.840
But I feel like if you know what you're doing and you vet your drayman, and there's big money being paid for transportation right now, I mean I think it's gonna be a good rest of the year.
00:45:54.320 --> 00:45:55.840
Don't ask me about 27, though.
00:45:55.920 --> 00:45:57.039
I have no idea.
00:45:57.920 --> 00:45:58.880
Certainly hope so.
00:45:59.039 --> 00:46:00.239
Certainly hope so.
00:46:00.559 --> 00:46:03.280
Well, Jason, thanks very much uh for all of this.
00:46:03.440 --> 00:46:05.440
Tell tell folks where they can find you.
00:46:05.599 --> 00:46:08.719
I mean, I think the the websites are pretty self-explanatory, right?
00:46:08.800 --> 00:46:12.719
But uh but uh tell folks where they can find more from you too.
00:46:12.960 --> 00:46:18.480
Yep, loadmatchdrage.com and if you're in Chicago, Intermodal Association of Chicago.org.
00:46:18.639 --> 00:46:21.199
And yeah, it's been a pleasure talking to both of you.
00:46:26.880 --> 00:46:36.400
So I guess we should say it now that this is our 100th episode between the Intermodal Logistics Podcast and InTech Freight and Logistics, the podcast.
00:46:36.559 --> 00:46:37.760
So uh excellent.
00:46:37.920 --> 00:46:38.800
Where's the fireworks?
00:46:39.599 --> 00:46:43.519
Yeah, I thought about getting like uh one of those uh noisemakers or something.
00:46:43.679 --> 00:46:48.239
Uh yeah, we could have kept some sparklers from the 4th of July, not not too far long ago.
00:46:48.320 --> 00:46:54.000
But uh but yeah, excited to to hit that milestone.
00:46:54.159 --> 00:47:22.320
And uh Jason, a great way to uh to celebrate it by talking about one of the the key components of uh of intermodal that uh I feel like you've been talking about more uh in the last several months, uh kind of drilling in, and you mentioned during the episode as well, how important uh drayage is to the actual on schedule, uh uncomplicated uh arrival of a load.
00:47:22.639 --> 00:47:23.679
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
00:47:23.840 --> 00:47:29.599
And and and it's become a bigger and bigger issue as drivers have left the market.
00:47:29.840 --> 00:47:36.159
Um we've seen and it at the same time that volume is picking up because of the things that are going on in the truckload world.
00:47:36.400 --> 00:47:47.119
Um so I I thought it was great to have Jason on because he's one of the ones out there that speaks the most and and most knowledgeable about what's going on in the drain network.
00:47:47.280 --> 00:47:53.760
I know he's got a lot of stuff and a lot of people go to him because of what's going on in Chicago, but his information is beyond just Chicago.
00:47:53.920 --> 00:47:54.079
Yeah.
00:47:54.400 --> 00:48:09.840
Um and one of the parts that I really found interesting is the part that we've been running across several times over again, which is the driver capacity is leaving the market, and because they're leaving because they're illegal in some form or fashion, um, they're not coming back.
00:48:10.400 --> 00:48:13.280
And well, I I say that.
00:48:13.519 --> 00:48:18.000
Um Jason Miller um from Michigan State um.
00:48:20.960 --> 00:48:23.840
So I was trying to remember if it if he was our last one or not.
00:48:24.400 --> 00:48:30.320
Uh every now and then Shelly sneaks into a conversation here and I and I'm not part of it um of that podcast.
00:48:30.719 --> 00:48:38.960
And in any case, both of them have said um that if rates return, drivers will return.
00:48:39.119 --> 00:48:39.519
There's enough.
00:48:39.920 --> 00:48:40.639
There will be drivers.
00:48:40.880 --> 00:48:41.840
There will be drivers.
00:48:42.159 --> 00:48:43.519
You build it, they will come.
00:48:43.920 --> 00:48:45.519
Yeah, I I thought that was interesting too.
00:48:45.679 --> 00:48:51.360
And uh Jason Hilsenbeck today said something that Jason Miller had just said to us uh on the last episode.
00:48:51.519 --> 00:48:58.079
Uh the the numbers actually are bearing it out now for on the drainage side from uh the dip, and now it's going back up again.
00:48:58.400 --> 00:48:59.599
And that's that's great news.
00:48:59.760 --> 00:49:02.079
Um that's great news for lots of folks.
00:49:02.239 --> 00:49:11.679
Um it's great news for the the drainage community to be able to come back um and and be able to move freight at a a profit for themselves.
00:49:11.840 --> 00:49:25.679
Um and it's great for the IMCs out there to be able to see that that increase as well, so that we can offer and and feel confident in the services that we provide on the shippers that they transition from truckload to intermodal um during this time period.
00:49:25.840 --> 00:49:29.039
So um that was I mean, he had a lot of good information.
00:49:29.199 --> 00:49:44.800
I mean, one of the pieces of information that uh I wrote down as we um separated out is that right now the driver um we're just the driver um or the licensed drivers is just down, you know, about 10 to 20,000 drivers from where it was.
00:49:45.440 --> 00:49:48.320
480 is is sort of like the the going number.
00:49:48.719 --> 00:49:57.119
Yeah, and it we're just down a little bit right now from where we were in whatever we want to call normal, but we're we're calling normal 2018.
00:49:58.559 --> 00:50:02.079
Yeah, 2018, 2019 into the run of 2020.
00:50:02.320 --> 00:50:12.800
And so that's also positive and and feels it gives me some confidence again that that uh the service level um is gonna be there for those those people that are transitioning out.
00:50:12.880 --> 00:50:25.119
So anyway, this I thought this was a great hundredth um uh episode I mean to to have on on the topic because the other thing is you said I I've been talking a lot about drayage, and that's the part I think often gets missed.
00:50:25.280 --> 00:50:34.079
You got three parts of intermodal, two of them are drayage, but most of the conversation that goes on about intermodal is what's what's going on with the railroads.
00:50:34.159 --> 00:50:34.480
Yeah.
00:50:34.719 --> 00:50:40.880
Um and most of the problems happen at the the drayage segments.
00:50:41.360 --> 00:50:43.360
There's just there's just more to deal with.
00:50:43.840 --> 00:50:49.119
Yes, there's more to deal with and there's all the variables he was talking about and uh and variables that we didn't even touch on.
00:50:49.360 --> 00:50:50.800
Oh yeah, absolutely.
00:50:51.280 --> 00:50:55.440
Uh so if you've joined us for all 100, thank you very much.
00:50:55.599 --> 00:50:58.239
If this is your first episode, thank you very much too.
00:50:58.320 --> 00:50:59.039
We appreciate it.
00:50:59.199 --> 00:51:09.119
And uh please do subscribe, follow wherever you get your podcasts, drop us a comment, like, rate review, all of that stuff is uh great for us.
00:51:09.360 --> 00:51:26.239
If you have uh other questions for us or deeper comments that you want to take offline, feel free to email us at podcast at intechlogistics.com and you can visit our website, www.intechlogistics.com, for more about the company.
00:51:26.559 --> 00:51:29.760
Again, thanks to Jason Hilsonbeck for joining us today.
00:51:29.840 --> 00:51:31.039
And Rick, thank you.
00:51:31.280 --> 00:51:32.239
Great to be back.
00:51:32.400 --> 00:51:35.519
We will be back again soon with another episode.
00:00:02.720 --> 00:00:08.080
Thanks very much for joining us on this edition of the Intermodal Logistics Podcast.
00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:12.960
I'm Kevin Baxter with my co-host today, InTech Logistics CEO, Rick Ladore.
00:00:13.279 --> 00:00:15.119
Hey Rick, good to be back.
00:00:15.679 --> 00:00:21.280
And we are happy to have our guest today to talk Drage and the DRAGE market.
00:00:21.440 --> 00:00:31.679
We've talked about Drayage a couple of different episodes, but um not really uh taking the whole temperature of it and and of course uh a different angle that our guest today provides.
00:00:31.839 --> 00:00:37.679
He is the founder of LoadMatch and Drage.com and president of those uh two as well.
00:00:37.840 --> 00:00:39.920
His name is uh Jason Hilsendeck.
00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:41.439
Jason, thanks very much for joining us.
00:00:41.759 --> 00:00:42.240
Hello.
00:00:43.679 --> 00:00:48.399
So uh that was a a little bit of a a primer, but tell us more about yourself.
00:00:48.560 --> 00:00:53.359
We like to get a little uh biography of our guests before we really get into it.
00:00:53.439 --> 00:00:57.039
Tell us more about yourself and and how you got into the industry and how long you've been doing it.
00:00:57.359 --> 00:00:58.320
Yeah, pleasure to be here.
00:00:58.399 --> 00:00:59.520
Thanks for having me.
00:00:59.759 --> 00:01:04.400
Uh I got started actually in 1994.
00:01:04.719 --> 00:01:10.239
I graduated from Western Illinois University with a degree in supply chain management.
00:01:10.480 --> 00:01:18.000
And my career started then, went to work at Gen X, which was an intermodal marketing company in IMC.
00:01:18.480 --> 00:01:24.560
And back in the 90s, there was a lot of IMCs, and then names that you wouldn't recognize now.
00:01:24.879 --> 00:01:26.079
But that's where I got started.
00:01:26.159 --> 00:01:36.879
They hired me, the Middleton brothers hired me to do dispatch intermodal operations, and back then it was 45 and 48-foot rail trailers.
00:01:37.599 --> 00:01:57.840
So that's how I got started with all the there was more class ones, free-running rail trailers, and it was neat to see that the intermodal industry evolve in '94 to uh from 45-foot size trailers to 48-foot containers into 53-foot containers like the EMH to EMP to EMH program.
00:01:57.920 --> 00:02:00.400
And and uh really neat to see that.
00:02:00.560 --> 00:02:07.519
You know, that there was the NAX container program, there was the Stax container program, is a need to see those evolve and disappear.
00:02:08.080 --> 00:02:17.599
I went through the mergers like BN to Santa Fe, the UP to SP, uh, the CN buying the IC, the WC, the EJE.
00:02:18.240 --> 00:02:24.639
Went through the ComRail split up, and uh just can't wait for the UP to take over NS.
00:02:27.360 --> 00:02:41.039
Uh so so tell us about uh loadmatch and drage.com, how you came to uh put those two together and and how how they've been able to last uh stand the test of time really since you did uh found those.
00:02:41.520 --> 00:02:42.080
Thank you.
00:02:42.240 --> 00:02:52.719
Yeah, that was 1999 that I got the websites going, and and that that came out of working and operations at Intermodal Mark at Gen X, the IMC.
00:02:53.360 --> 00:02:58.080
And I mean it was back then before the internet, I mean you used phone books.
00:02:58.639 --> 00:03:09.199
So I I still have a three-ring binder that that I started writing down like in my job, like which Draymond did what and which metro.
00:03:09.439 --> 00:03:18.080
And I still have this day, like you go to Dreyage.com, you click on the map, that City Metro is actually a tab and a three-ring binder.
00:03:18.639 --> 00:03:20.639
And so that's how that got going.
00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:29.039
And uh, I knew I was on to something when the guys in dispatch and and gals, you know, they would ask me, like, hey Jason, uh, where's the Bible?
00:03:29.120 --> 00:03:32.319
I need a trucker in Columbus, Ohio that has a triaxle.
00:03:32.560 --> 00:03:45.280
And I'd hand them that three-ring binder, and I'm like, huh, you know, if we need this and other IMCs need this, and you're using the quick collar guide, yellow pages, and this whole internet website thing was kind of cool.
00:03:45.599 --> 00:03:47.520
So that's how I got the websites going.
00:03:47.759 --> 00:03:50.080
So and load matches the posting board.
00:03:50.159 --> 00:03:57.599
So two quick things, like there's one thing when you need a trucker, you're just trying to find power to get a container out.
00:03:58.159 --> 00:04:00.400
That's the DreyH.com directory.
00:04:00.879 --> 00:04:04.960
And we're at we're down to 4,700 profiles now.
00:04:05.039 --> 00:04:19.680
I had 7800 different Draymond profiles during 2022 time when things are really tight, and we've uh trimmed out a lot of Draymond, so very strict on who gets on there.
00:04:20.000 --> 00:04:21.920
Load match is a posting board.
00:04:22.000 --> 00:04:33.439
So sometimes you want to go find the trucker, contact them, other times you want to post on a board like DAT or truck stop, and that's where you post container loads to move, and the truckers bid on those.
00:04:33.519 --> 00:04:44.720
And they so in other words, load match is where you put something on the board, truckers contact you, drayage.com is the phone book, that's where you contact the truckers.
00:04:45.040 --> 00:04:46.480
That's the difference.
00:04:47.199 --> 00:04:55.040
Yeah, I like uh your your email signature has it very simply laid out for just a quick uh quick primer, basically what you just said there.
00:04:55.120 --> 00:05:03.199
So uh I thought that was uh it's it's nice to be able to boil something down to to its essence in just a few words and and be able to tell people what it is.
00:05:03.439 --> 00:05:05.680
Our business is so complicated as it is.
00:05:06.319 --> 00:05:10.879
Starting out on a clear trajectory is good because it all goes Awire from there.
00:05:11.920 --> 00:05:13.600
So true, so true.
00:05:14.480 --> 00:05:24.319
So um also, I mean, the uh the other piece that we didn't mention, you're uh the director of the intermodal association association of Chicago.
00:05:24.480 --> 00:05:29.439
And uh so so what is IAC and and what does it cover?
00:05:29.839 --> 00:05:36.959
Uh yeah, Intermodal Association of Chicago, it's a nonprofit group, and it's been around since 1961.
00:05:37.199 --> 00:05:41.120
And it was actually called the Piggyback Association back then.
00:05:41.279 --> 00:05:48.079
So when there were rail trailers and they morked to containers, you know, the name got changed to Intermodal Association.
00:05:48.720 --> 00:05:51.680
And that job, I'm proud of the group.
00:05:51.759 --> 00:06:05.439
There, I mean, their job is to provide uh a way of networking with all the providers of Intermodal in Chicago, the truckers, the vendors, the railroads, the ocean lines, the shippers, IMCs, freight brokers.
00:06:06.160 --> 00:06:10.079
Provide that communication in a in a networking format.
00:06:11.120 --> 00:06:22.959
And it's uh I would would love to go more into it, like how we'd like to improve the Chicago community, but it's really tough dealing with class one railroads, they're private entities.
00:06:23.920 --> 00:06:35.279
You know, they own the terminals, it's not like the ports where you know a port authority can dictate to a terminal operator or an ocean line or a vessel operator what they should do.
00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:37.759
You know, the railroads control everything.
00:06:38.079 --> 00:06:49.920
So we can complain and and uh and all that stuff, but it at least we provide a networking so networking opportunities for all those companies to communicate.
00:06:50.879 --> 00:06:57.839
So part of that, you have a uh your largest meeting or an annual meeting in in March of every year.
00:06:58.160 --> 00:07:12.079
And if I remember right, so and then in March, you come out with this big study or report that talks about who owns the containers, who's gaining more containers, who's backing out of the industry or backing away from purchasing containers.
00:07:12.240 --> 00:07:14.639
You basically give an overall picture of what's going on.
00:07:14.800 --> 00:07:23.360
Is there some things that that you can share um about or what do you've seen um in the last report and maybe some changes that have already happened?
00:07:23.600 --> 00:07:24.240
Oh yeah.
00:07:24.560 --> 00:07:29.519
I've been doing an annual update for I don't know gosh, 13, 14 years.
00:07:29.759 --> 00:07:41.839
Oh, and also, Rick, I gotta point out that that meeting is around 300 people, but our biggest meeting is the December holiday party, the prom, the trucker prom, which is 1200.
00:07:41.920 --> 00:07:44.240
We limit it to 1200 people.
00:07:44.480 --> 00:07:44.800
Okay.
00:07:45.040 --> 00:07:49.279
That's actually our biggest meeting, but it's just you know a dinner party.
00:07:49.439 --> 00:07:52.800
But that's how important networking is, you know, communication one-on-one.
00:07:53.279 --> 00:07:58.240
You know, people flying from all over the country to attend that December holiday party with 1,200 people.
00:07:59.040 --> 00:08:13.839
In March, I do an annual update, and I the takeaway from March was the the container fleet count, just my uh the two big things I do are the the drayage outlook and the 53-foot container fleet outlook.
00:08:14.480 --> 00:08:24.879
And on the 53-foot fleets, very important to know that again, JB Hunt and Amazon added 53-foot containers to their fleets.
00:08:25.040 --> 00:08:29.439
They added 7,900 containers in one year time.
00:08:30.240 --> 00:08:31.360
Just those two companies.
00:08:31.600 --> 00:08:38.639
Everybody else didn't add, or if they added to replace their uh their uh containers that came out of their fleets.
00:08:39.679 --> 00:08:47.840
And the other takeaway is again JBHunt Amazon added, and again, the EMH UMAX program declined.
00:08:47.919 --> 00:08:52.559
And it was they declined 2900, 2200.
00:08:54.399 --> 00:09:05.039
So the the Umax fleet reduced again by 2200 containers, so that's 3900 for Umax and 3736 for EMH.
00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:16.240
So if you're in other words, if you're a BCO shipper, you have plenty of 53 foot capacity with the private fleet owners, they have they have two-thirds of the marketplace.
00:09:16.320 --> 00:09:22.399
There's 373,000 53 foot containers in the US fleets.
00:09:22.720 --> 00:09:29.519
I'm not counting the Canadian fleet or the Mexican fleets, so that's why TTX, their number is bigger.
00:09:30.000 --> 00:09:45.919
But for the US marketplace, 373,000 and so yeah, if you're if you're an IMC like you guys are, Rick, I mean you're your available capacity is declining with the railroad-owned network of boxes.
00:09:47.039 --> 00:09:50.240
And it's been a bit since they've added to the fleet, correct?
00:09:50.480 --> 00:09:52.879
They haven't added in over a 10 year decade.
00:09:53.519 --> 00:09:54.799
Yeah, it's been a bit.
00:09:54.960 --> 00:09:55.279
Yeah.
00:09:56.000 --> 00:10:01.120
Yeah, so it uh but you know you've got CLC logistics, you know, on the BNSF.
00:10:01.360 --> 00:10:06.639
So they've added that, I mean, they've they're at 8,8500 containers.
00:10:07.200 --> 00:10:13.919
So you've got that marketplace, and who knows what's gonna happen if this merger goes through.
00:10:14.080 --> 00:10:17.440
We'll talk about you know, future stuff later, I know.
00:10:17.759 --> 00:10:18.799
Right, right, right.
00:10:19.840 --> 00:10:23.360
Well, I mean, how has uh as as you look at the container mix?
00:10:23.440 --> 00:10:36.000
I mean, you talked about the the declines and and the uh the gains there, how has that changed since you've been uh first following that uh that count, uh, as you said, about uh what 15 years ago or so?
00:10:36.320 --> 00:10:39.600
Oh my gosh, it's triple in size in 14 years.
00:10:39.759 --> 00:10:47.360
We were at a hundred and fifteen thousand containers in the US probably f 14, 15 years ago.
00:10:47.519 --> 00:10:53.600
And I mean the containers you and the reason is is because contain 53-foot containers are cheap.
00:10:53.759 --> 00:10:56.639
I mean, the wheels aren't attached, so it's cheap to build a box.
00:10:56.799 --> 00:10:58.879
They were well cheap back then.
00:10:59.200 --> 00:11:10.000
And you had to transition away from trailers on flat cars to containers on flat cars, so so that's why the container count has tripled in the past decade and a half.
00:11:11.039 --> 00:11:20.799
So there's I I what's really important as you know, Rick, is that there might be 370,000 containers, but how many are actually available for use?
00:11:21.039 --> 00:11:22.399
I mean, how many are stacked?
00:11:23.360 --> 00:11:25.679
So like so that's really the question.
00:11:26.399 --> 00:11:32.000
And uh I'd I'd say I mean rock 53 foot intermole is rocking and rolling.
00:11:32.240 --> 00:11:40.240
And yes, you know, so I'd I mean you talk to COC logistics, and I think they're at their all-time biggest use of their containers.
00:11:40.399 --> 00:11:43.600
Very few are stacked, and they're getting good utilization.
00:11:43.759 --> 00:11:47.840
So it's a really neat time with the 53-foot container marketplace.
00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:49.039
Yes, it is.
00:11:49.200 --> 00:11:55.360
Um, because yes, a lot of stuff was stacked between July 2022 and the first of this year.
00:11:55.600 --> 00:11:59.440
Um well, actually, but even before that they start on stacking.
00:11:59.519 --> 00:12:07.679
So yeah, it's good to see them all back in circulation or pretty close to all back in circulation, and still see price increasing thanks to what's going on in the trucking market.
00:12:08.000 --> 00:12:08.879
Yeah, amen.
00:12:09.279 --> 00:12:09.840
Love it.
00:12:10.879 --> 00:12:28.159
Also, speaking of the trucking market and we're speaking of of drainage, obviously, um we we've heard a lot of stuff uh in the the overall general space about uh trucking capacity declining, uh all of the regulations that have uh affected things.
00:12:28.240 --> 00:12:35.919
Um, but we haven't really talked uh on this podcast at least too much about the um how that's affected drainage.
00:12:36.000 --> 00:12:43.120
Uh and obviously uh I I think it's it's pretty common knowledge out there that that drainage capacity is a little tighter too.
00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:45.600
So so where is that uh at this point?
00:12:45.840 --> 00:12:49.759
What were you seeing in March and and how has that uh continued forward?
00:12:50.080 --> 00:12:50.879
Oh yes.
00:12:51.120 --> 00:12:56.080
Yeah, the all the enforcement and the crackdown is is taking out driver capacity.
00:12:56.320 --> 00:13:06.559
But as you know, with drayage driver, the capacity of that marketplace is a small subset of the overall you know CDL drivers out there.
00:13:06.799 --> 00:13:19.279
And the way you can track it with with rail drayage is the U Intermodal Association North America, IANA runs the UIIA Uniform Intermodal Interchange Agreement program.
00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:23.840
And within the UIIA, they register driver names.
00:13:23.919 --> 00:13:26.639
That's the Intermodal Driver Database IDD.
00:13:27.679 --> 00:13:32.960
And with the IDD, the numbers were at 470.
00:13:33.039 --> 00:13:34.480
Let me get this right for you here.
00:13:34.559 --> 00:13:35.679
I wrote that down.
00:13:37.360 --> 00:13:43.200
Starting out, they had four this year, end of January, 470,000.
00:13:44.559 --> 00:13:45.200
Where is it?
00:13:46.639 --> 00:13:51.120
470,000 or so.
00:13:51.279 --> 00:14:01.200
They're at 460 right now, dropped by about 20,000 drivers in the past six months or so.
00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:06.399
So that so yeah, that that has taken out some drivers.
00:14:06.480 --> 00:14:15.919
Uh the English language enforcement, non-domicile, so yeah, that that has affected capacity, but it's come back up.
00:14:16.399 --> 00:14:20.320
It actually came back up in this at the end of June.
00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:28.799
So it it's interesting that as demand goes up and dray rates go up, that you know, driver capacity comes back into the marketplace.
00:14:29.200 --> 00:14:35.279
So it dropped from January to March, 460,000.
00:14:35.679 --> 00:14:40.960
Yeah, it's it's so we went back up to 467,000 at the end of June.
00:14:41.600 --> 00:14:54.720
Four set 482, 482,000 drivers in December, 473 in January, went down to 460 in April, back up to 467,000.
00:14:55.519 --> 00:14:58.799
So yeah, driver capacity comes back when the rates go up.
00:14:59.120 --> 00:15:23.600
Yeah, that's that's super interesting because a lot of the stuff that I've been reading about the trucking side of things is that when we lose these drivers based off of these regulations, this unlike other market uh other times when you know um business goes down, these people leave the market and then they eventually wait to the rates to come back up again and then they come back in, and during that period of time, you know, they're either working in the construction side or just a whole bunch of other things they can be doing.
00:15:23.679 --> 00:15:33.519
And so the the conversations I've been hearing is that well, uh, this all has to do with regulations if these folks are illegal in some form of what some form of fashion and they're not coming back.
00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:42.399
Your data says that on the driver's side, what always happens rates go down, people exit the market, rates come up, people come back in the market.
00:15:42.559 --> 00:15:48.159
Yeah, um, and it's uh and it says that that pattern is is holding steady.
00:15:48.399 --> 00:15:49.039
Yeah.
00:15:49.679 --> 00:15:57.039
Yeah, like we're at 467, and during the pandemic times, it peaked at 591,000.
00:15:57.279 --> 00:16:02.480
That's how many drivers were registered doing rail drage during the peak back in the pandemic time.
00:16:02.639 --> 00:16:04.960
591,000 drivers.
00:16:05.279 --> 00:16:10.879
And it went, we were down to 460 two months ago, came back up to 467 end of June.
00:16:11.600 --> 00:16:20.879
So uh there are plenty of skilled human beings out there that are qualified to drive trucks, and they will do it if the money's there.
00:16:21.440 --> 00:16:29.919
Now, hopefully, the ones that aren't skilled, like this is my biggest beef with this whole okay, this whole crap with driver shortage.
00:16:30.159 --> 00:16:37.759
Like when I started in '94, first thing I heard when I got out of college in that seat doing dispatch, oh, there's a driver shortage.
00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:45.759
I remember being with uh with Dave Manning at TCW on a panel at Anna like like back in 2005, there's a driver shortage.
00:16:46.480 --> 00:16:47.519
Well, guess what?
00:16:47.600 --> 00:16:55.840
We relaxed all those rules to fill the driver shortage with visas from overseas folks to come in and drive trucks.
00:16:56.159 --> 00:17:01.120
We there was lax schooling for these drivers to get trained.
00:17:01.279 --> 00:17:08.480
There's lax DMV uh when you get your driver's license, you got to go to a DMV and get inspected.
00:17:08.720 --> 00:17:12.319
The DMV folks are lax at qualifying drivers.
00:17:12.559 --> 00:17:17.119
So it's not where they're born, it's how their skill is at driving trucks.
00:17:17.200 --> 00:17:21.119
So somehow with the driver shortage, we let the skill level decline.
00:17:21.279 --> 00:17:22.720
And that's what really gets me.
00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:31.839
So, but I'm I'm telling you, there is plenty of skilled human beings that can speak English and understand signs that will drive trucks if the money's there.
00:17:34.240 --> 00:17:45.279
And so even with the the fact that the the numbers have come back up a bit uh during the year, there are certain markets that are especially dealing with some some tightness.
00:17:45.440 --> 00:17:57.279
I know you had um uh you posted in June about uh Savannah being, I think that was that the most uh difficult market uh at the time uh for drage capacity.
00:17:57.599 --> 00:18:03.279
Yeah, Savannah and Houston, they are they're just popping, and they still are.
00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:12.319
And this is the other part with driver capacity, it's very tied to how efficient terminals are at processing drivers.
00:18:12.880 --> 00:18:28.319
So, I mean, if you think about I I do a whole I've done this before where like for a Savannah, their issue was increased volumes and slower turn times in the terminal for the drivers, so longer time the drivers there.
00:18:28.640 --> 00:18:40.079
And if you think about Savannah, they had some issues processing drivers and they do about they hover between 12 and 15,000 gate transactions per day.
00:18:41.200 --> 00:18:50.559
And I think they got up to 17,000, don't quote me on that, but I remember talking to a guy there uh a couple months ago and they they're booming.
00:18:51.279 --> 00:19:12.160
So think about it, if there's 15,000 gate transactions, drivers going to and from the gate, and say in that time that they're spent in the terminal, whether it's a rail or port terminal, 15,000 times 10 extra minutes per driver per transaction, that's 150,000 extra minutes per day.
00:19:12.799 --> 00:19:15.920
That's 2,500 driver hours.
00:19:16.960 --> 00:19:24.799
So same number of drivers, but you just extended their hours of service by 2,500 over 15,000 transactions.
00:19:24.960 --> 00:19:32.480
So driver drayage capacity comes down to how fast terminals process the drivers.
00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:40.000
Just like when they get out on the street to the warehouse, if they're stuck at a warehouse, driver delays, unloading or loading.
00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:42.400
You know, if they're dropping, not such a big deal.
00:19:42.640 --> 00:19:48.240
But terminal productivity is the number one determinant of drayage driver capacity.
00:19:50.319 --> 00:19:57.519
So uh Savannah, and you said Houston as well, is that kind of a similar issue or or was theirs a little bit different?
00:19:57.759 --> 00:19:59.599
That well, there's always volume, you know.
00:19:59.839 --> 00:20:01.920
You can't discount the volume.
00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:07.920
I mean, if there's more volume of containers to move, you need more hours to get those containers out.
00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:19.279
But you know, if a d if a terminal processes one container every hour versus a hundred containers every hour, that's what where driver capacity is either sucked up or becomes efficient.
00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:21.920
And a couple of stats are these are from last night.
00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:26.240
So Savannah is still in the Savannah, this is the port side.
00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:34.319
Oh, I I completely forgot to qualify that intermodal is split between ocean side and domestic 53-foot side.
00:20:34.720 --> 00:20:40.480
So when we're talking about drayage demand, we're talking about port drayage here with Savannah and Houston.
00:20:41.279 --> 00:20:44.400
Dallas is the screwed up part for a 53-foot intermodal right now.
00:20:45.119 --> 00:20:52.319
But in Savannah, past 60 days, 125,000 clicks were made in 60 days on Savannah.
00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:54.880
Houston came in at 105,000.
00:20:56.079 --> 00:20:57.759
This is what I think is so interesting.
00:20:57.839 --> 00:21:07.519
If you think about the volumes of LA Long Beach, they're at 104,000 compared to Savannah at 125,000 clicks in 60 days.
00:21:08.240 --> 00:21:18.480
So Savannah's, you know, a fifth the size, or I shouldn't say fifth, but comes in fourth or fifth after LA Long Beach, because you know, it depends if you combine LA Long Beach or not.
00:21:19.519 --> 00:21:28.240
But LA Long Beach, incredible volumes, just really great numbers of volumes coming in the ports, and they're doing a great job turning the drivers.
00:21:28.319 --> 00:21:34.960
And so we don't see as many clicks looking for Dre Dreyage driver capacity at LA Long Beach because they're kicking butt.
00:21:35.599 --> 00:21:37.599
They're really processing drivers fast.
00:21:37.839 --> 00:21:39.119
I mean, there's always exceptions.
00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:42.319
So that's LA Long Beach doing great.
00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:48.400
Savannah Houston, the number of uh the time it's taking and the volume is sucking up capacity.
00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:52.480
That's the most number one click in Chicago's been nuts.
00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:58.880
So 104,000 clicks for LA Long Beach, 102,000 for Chicago Drage.
00:21:59.279 --> 00:21:59.759
So Chicago.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:02.319
Chicago's been tough to get Dreage capacity to.
00:22:02.400 --> 00:22:04.400
And that's both style of boxes.
00:22:04.640 --> 00:22:06.720
Big box and small box.
00:22:09.039 --> 00:22:18.799
Yeah, so just backing up, I didn't explain this, but uh, but the the clicks you're talking about uh on Dreyage.com, this is how you're tracking uh the activity.
00:22:19.119 --> 00:22:28.000
Yeah, on the DreyH.com website, it's a directory, and I feel like most people have other things to do with their life than go looking on the Dre list.
00:22:28.319 --> 00:22:36.000
So if they're hitting the DreH.com site, clicking on a metro, it probably means they're looking for a capacity or a rate.
00:22:36.160 --> 00:22:38.240
So there's a demand of some sort.
00:22:38.559 --> 00:22:48.160
So we infer that if there's a click because they're clicking on, and these are actual human-made clicks, they're logged in, so they're not this is all human-made, not AI.
00:22:49.039 --> 00:22:54.160
And we believe that they're clicking on a metro, they're needing drayage, so there's a demand for something.
00:22:55.039 --> 00:22:56.240
And so those are the hotspots.
00:22:56.400 --> 00:23:01.039
Savannah, Houston, LA, Chicago, New York, in that order.
00:23:02.240 --> 00:23:04.160
And oh there is a caveat though.
00:23:04.240 --> 00:23:09.920
So just because there's a number of clicks doesn't mean that's necessarily a most stressed metro.
00:23:10.079 --> 00:23:15.839
The most stressed metro right now is Dallas, like Alliance, like a Haslett and Dallas ramps.
00:23:16.720 --> 00:23:40.720
And what I mean by that is in that same 60-day time period, we've got 37,000 clicks made on Dallas Fort Worth, but because the marketplace is smaller and there's fewer Draymond in that marketplace, if you take the number of clicks made on a city metro versus the number of draymens that serve that metro, Dallas by far is the most difficult to find at drayage capacity.
00:23:41.359 --> 00:23:45.519
And that's that's due to both style of boxes, big box and small box.
00:23:46.640 --> 00:23:48.079
So the that's the most stress.
00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:53.039
Nashville's under that, then Houston, then Phoenix of all places.
00:23:53.279 --> 00:23:54.880
They're UP's doing a great job.
00:23:54.960 --> 00:24:02.240
And I think being a self of running ocean boxes into the Phoenix Metro because we've had a lot of demand for that local drayage.
00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:10.319
So if you're a Draymond out there, Phoenix and Nashville are where you want to open up your next drayage locations, your drayage terminals.
00:24:10.559 --> 00:24:11.759
I can speak for Phoenix.
00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:15.920
We've picked up quite a bit of business out of Phoenix and sitting out in operations.
00:24:16.079 --> 00:24:17.359
That's uh yeah.
00:24:17.680 --> 00:24:18.240
I know, Rick.
00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:19.039
I mean, I hear a lot.
00:24:19.279 --> 00:24:26.319
I wish in our business we could I get asked by like Evans and the other agencies, like, hey, where should we put drivers in?
00:24:26.400 --> 00:24:29.200
And I and I'm like, these are the metros that are hot right now.
00:24:29.359 --> 00:24:31.200
I'm like, well, we don't know if it's gonna last.
00:24:31.359 --> 00:24:33.279
I'm like, I don't either, but you're asking.
00:24:33.440 --> 00:24:46.000
So Alex, Nashville, Phoenix are the small metros where if you're a drage terminal, Dreage operator with drivers, that's where you want to set up shop right now.
00:24:47.759 --> 00:25:04.319
And so overall, the the numbers on on Dreyage demand, I think uh the the report that you had at the end of June was talking about uh demand being a little bit down going into the the 4th of July as a as a nationwide uh number.
00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:06.960
But uh yeah, it's back up.
00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:08.160
We're right back up.
00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:11.279
Yeah, it it's it's really at a high level.
00:25:11.440 --> 00:25:13.759
I believe we're at, let me take a look here.
00:25:16.240 --> 00:25:26.480
It's been stable over the past four weeks, just two percent up, but over the past six months, we're 27% higher demand in the past six months.
00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:36.960
So if you go back, you know, earlier the part of the year, we're 27% higher number of clicks nationwide looking for drage capacity, big box and small box.
00:25:37.839 --> 00:25:44.559
So lots of demand, less capacity for the driver's side, more volume, higher demand.
00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:48.960
Do you have a split between what is the big box and what's the small box?
00:25:49.279 --> 00:25:50.799
Um, in terms of drage capacity.
00:25:51.519 --> 00:25:57.359
In the directory, if I could get everybody to identify what they're actually looking for, I could do that.
00:25:57.599 --> 00:26:10.640
But I just I just know that, like with you guys or another IMC, like if you click on a metro, I can see the filters you're looking at, but oftentimes they just click and I don't really know what they're looking for.
00:26:10.720 --> 00:26:15.519
I just know they clicked on a Draymond profile in Chicago or wherever.
00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:24.319
But yeah, that'd be really interesting, you know, to see it would be to see what's going on because I mean for us, we're moving 53s, and then we also play in the repo market.
00:26:24.480 --> 00:26:36.000
Um, so we're we're moving a lot of 40s as well from inland out to the coast, take advantage of those uh ISO boxes that we can pick up some good rates and and move some heavier product.
00:26:36.240 --> 00:26:42.000
Yeah, yeah, that's a great thing to do if you can repo do domestic loading on the ocean boxes.
00:26:42.240 --> 00:26:50.640
But yeah, if I can get everybody to tell me what they're really looking for, it'd be awesome to describe as an industry what's really hot and what's not.
00:26:52.079 --> 00:26:53.599
I'm sure it'll come.
00:26:54.720 --> 00:26:56.000
Everybody wants more data.
00:26:56.319 --> 00:26:57.519
Everybody wants more data.
00:26:57.839 --> 00:27:02.400
And and uh and uh a lot of the stuff that with AI is is really driving people.
00:27:02.640 --> 00:27:03.680
Oh, I can do this now.
00:27:03.839 --> 00:27:05.839
Oh, if I could just have that one more piece.
00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:08.480
Oh that'll fit that'll figure everything out.
00:27:08.799 --> 00:27:21.680
I'll tell you what, on the driver capacity side, like the one thing I would love to do is that when I tell you there's 462,000 or 467,000 drayage drivers, that's just the rail number.
00:27:21.920 --> 00:27:29.759
No one has ever put together, like in the port of LA Long Beach, there's 20 some thousand drivers registered to do port drage.
00:27:29.920 --> 00:27:31.519
That's different than the rail drage.
00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:35.920
But some of those drivers registered at the port also do rail.
00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:52.240
And so I'm guessing, like for example, in Chicago, we calculated between big box turns or gate transactions that there's probably 22,000 drivers that do drage in Chicago, big box and small box.
00:27:52.319 --> 00:27:56.319
That includes JB Hunt, FedEx, all the ocean box guys.
00:27:56.720 --> 00:28:05.839
And if you think about LA Long Beach, they've got harbor trucking says that they've got 20 some thousand driver names registered with the port.
00:28:06.319 --> 00:28:09.599
About 15,000 of those are active every day.
00:28:10.079 --> 00:28:13.200
Maybe you combine another like 5,000 doing rail drayage.
00:28:13.359 --> 00:28:21.279
So I think Chicago marketplace and then you combine the drayage of ocean port terminals and rail terminals.
00:28:21.440 --> 00:28:26.079
I think Chicago and LA are about the same in volume for drayage drivers.
00:28:26.319 --> 00:28:32.640
So those are the stats I would love to see as a business, as our industry put together the whole picture.
00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:34.400
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
00:28:34.720 --> 00:28:38.400
Anyway, I guess me too.
00:28:38.720 --> 00:28:41.440
So so yeah, tell us a little bit more uh about Chicago.
00:28:41.599 --> 00:28:58.160
I mean, I think uh anyone involved in intermodal knows how um important Chicago is, but uh as like as a 20,000-foot view of uh of what happens in Chicago uh in terms of drayage and and how it links everything uh with intermodal.
00:28:58.240 --> 00:29:00.240
Tell us tell us about how how unique it is.
00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:02.480
Wow, Chicago's amazing.
00:29:02.960 --> 00:29:20.480
And uh as you or people probably in this podcast or watching knows that Chicago's nuts with all the terminals because you've got, depending on how you count the terminals, I say 14 between the big box domestic 53 intermodal terminals and the ocean box terminals.
00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:30.880
And it's 60 58 miles from way south at BNSF Elwood to get to the CPKC up in Bensonville, so nearly 60 miles spread.
00:29:31.759 --> 00:29:35.920
And some terminals are blended between big box and small box.
00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:53.039
Some terminals are grounded, meaning the box gets put on the ground truck or pixel chassis, and then it gets complicated with these terminals like UP and D N SF that on okay all big boxes are wheeled, hopefully, on good sets of wheels.
00:29:54.079 --> 00:29:56.640
The ocean box is what makes it challenging.
00:29:56.799 --> 00:30:13.039
So if you're uh doing imports or exports through Chicago, that's where it gets nuts because you don't know well, you should know if the wheels are provided or if the trucker needs to provide it, if it's gonna be grounded, if there's a lift flee or lift fee or a chassis split.
00:30:13.920 --> 00:30:19.599
So Chicago's spread out multiple everywhere, every all class ones come here.
00:30:20.079 --> 00:30:21.920
So you've got that that blend.
00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:32.319
And so between the distance, the the sheer amount of domestic and ocean box volume, and the big metro long haul drayage happens out of here.
00:30:32.400 --> 00:30:35.359
You got short haul, long haul to Wisconsin, Ohio.
00:30:35.599 --> 00:30:38.079
So really great place to do intermodal.
00:30:40.799 --> 00:30:45.519
And uh so with let's let's get back to the the merger.
00:30:45.599 --> 00:30:50.319
We we talked about it a little bit uh already with the the container question.
00:30:50.480 --> 00:31:04.079
Um one of the things that the the merger is talking about is uh is keeping uh like a single line situation for um those two entities uh going forward, UP and NS.
00:31:04.160 --> 00:31:12.000
So uh what do you see as as the implications of that if it if it does go through for Chicago and for Intermodal overall?
00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:17.200
Well, it's we're talking about future stuff here, so we don't know what's being said will actually turn true.
00:31:17.359 --> 00:31:21.839
But you know, with any merger you want to consolidate, you want to reduce costs.
00:31:22.160 --> 00:31:32.960
So I mean they are UP has said that they would close one or two of the the NS terminals and consolidate, which I could, you know, I can I can see that happening.
00:31:33.119 --> 00:31:41.039
And you know, UP might close you know, like Dalton or something to consolidate to you know to another NS terminal.
00:31:41.119 --> 00:31:55.119
So yeah, there'll be some consolidation of terminals, and uh which drives me nuts because if you're trying to expand intermodal volumes, you need terminal footprint, and a lot of these terminals are locked in.
00:31:55.200 --> 00:31:59.839
So they talk about closing terminals, which means reducing terminal footprint.
00:32:00.240 --> 00:32:12.240
I don't know how you can grow intermodal volume if you don't have more terminal space to process the volume, so that fundamentally certainly slows down the processing that we were just talking about earlier in terms of how long it takes you to get through a ramp.
00:32:12.880 --> 00:32:19.680
It was this is a side note, but I was at BNSF Alliance and there's actually diminishing returns of scale.
00:32:19.839 --> 00:32:38.880
So, like the at BNSF Alliance, they said they have a possibility of expanding even further north, but it takes so long within that terminal to get to process way north to come south to the entrance that they feel like it might be better to have a separate terminal to process another customer.
00:32:39.440 --> 00:32:51.440
And I think that's fascinating because you can get too big and it takes so long the transaction time of lifting off the train and all the yard jocking and all the dragage driver traffic.
00:32:51.759 --> 00:33:00.319
So so fundamentally, I it's like if you're gonna shrink terminal footprint, but you want to grow intermodal volume, I don't see how you can do both of those.
00:33:02.160 --> 00:33:05.599
Well, you go ahead and take it, I mean you've got there's limiting factors.
00:33:05.680 --> 00:33:10.000
I mean, so you got you got terminal space, then also boxes.
00:33:10.799 --> 00:33:18.880
There's if we're gonna go ahead and increase the total number of of intermodal moves, more investment needs to be made in boxes.
00:33:19.119 --> 00:33:24.640
Um because well, there's just so many, there's only so many turns you can do in a box.
00:33:24.799 --> 00:33:33.759
And so if you start looking at some of the numbers that uh are being thrown out there, it it's really hard to fathom how that's gonna happen without bringing more boxes into the market.
00:33:33.920 --> 00:33:34.000
Yeah.
00:33:34.160 --> 00:33:34.480
I don't know.
00:33:34.640 --> 00:33:35.440
Do you have any thoughts on that?
00:33:35.519 --> 00:33:37.119
Consider you track that all the time.
00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:39.759
Yeah, I I hear what you're saying.
00:33:39.920 --> 00:33:53.680
I mean, it you to bring to add more intermodal volume, you need more box capacity, you need the chassis too, you need the well cars, and you need the lift machines, and of course the labor to operate all this stuff.
00:33:54.000 --> 00:33:56.559
So it those are big investments.
00:33:56.720 --> 00:34:08.159
You don't are huge investments, and and a lot of the things that we talk about, or at least I talk about a lot, is that um drage is drage is where the is typically where the issue happens.
00:34:08.239 --> 00:34:16.639
It's either at at the ramp itself or it is at uh at the dock you're you're bumping um either at the origin or the destination.
00:34:16.880 --> 00:34:26.000
For the most part, the rail is is pretty on time with their stuff, but there's that there's capacity constraints and and various other factors.
00:34:26.320 --> 00:34:28.400
Where do I get my where do I get my chassis?
00:34:28.559 --> 00:34:32.079
Where do I get and it just continually rolls all around?
00:34:32.159 --> 00:34:46.400
Um and this topic that we're having right now in terms of talking about trade is usually one that isn't discussed much because we're when you read you read the articles, we're always talking about 12 times train speeds, yada yada yada.
00:34:46.559 --> 00:34:53.599
But in the end, uh in an intermodal move, there's three moves, and two of them usually don't get discussed much.
00:34:53.679 --> 00:34:58.960
So I'm glad we're sitting here talking about it today because it's kind of the forgotten part in a lot of cases.
00:34:59.280 --> 00:34:59.599
Yeah.
00:34:59.840 --> 00:35:05.840
I would I would love to see IANA start publishing, in addition to train speed, driver processing times.
00:35:06.079 --> 00:35:21.440
I like to see how long it's actually taking per driver at every terminal, and and have an idea of like if I'm routing my cargo, ocean or domestic, and I have a choice of routing different railroads, I would love to know the driver processing times.
00:35:21.920 --> 00:35:37.360
Just as like like I see train speed or schedules of like here's when you in-gate and here's an out gate, there's a published time, I'd like to see how much time it takes for the driver to get through that particular ex that specific terminal.
00:35:38.079 --> 00:35:39.599
So I'd love to see IANA do that.
00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:52.079
And we have and the railroads have all that data, and the ocean ports, you know, they because they're they're they're they're entity owned, they can dictate that that that driver turn time data is published.
00:35:52.159 --> 00:35:53.440
But I'd love to see that happen.
00:35:54.079 --> 00:36:09.440
You know, if I have a choice, I'd like to route my containers on the most efficient railroad network with the most efficient terminals, and that terminal transaction time is a reflection of chassis availability and the speed at driver processing.
00:36:11.519 --> 00:36:16.880
Well, so speaking of of chassis availability, I know Chicago has had challenges with that.
00:36:17.199 --> 00:36:27.440
Where where are we at now in terms of that availability and uh uh uh how things have gone with with cost and accessibility to both of those?
00:36:28.880 --> 00:36:39.840
I'd say on the 53-foot side, I feel like I mean I see the complaints about you know 53-foot chassis under boxes that need to be repaired.
00:36:40.239 --> 00:36:48.800
That seems to be happening more frequently, but overall it feels like most 53-foot boxes are being mounted automatically wheeled like they should.
00:36:49.519 --> 00:36:51.920
On the ocean box side, oh that's a whole nother thing.
00:36:52.960 --> 00:37:01.840
And uh, you know, UP's been having problems with the small boxes, the 20s and 40s, because they automatically wheel.
00:37:02.639 --> 00:37:13.280
And and I'm gonna say this, I have no shame in saying this, but you know, the union the railroads for the most part pay a contractor to pick out a chassis.
00:37:13.679 --> 00:37:16.159
That's really their job on wheeled facilities.
00:37:16.239 --> 00:37:25.760
And the contractor that operates a terminal on behalf of the railroad does not care the condition of the wheels that are placed underneath the boxes.
00:37:26.239 --> 00:37:34.639
And of course they claim it's not their job because every chassis should be perfect, you know, but you know that nothing's ever perfect.
00:37:35.199 --> 00:37:55.760
So that's what's happened is that as volumes pick up and the dwell time increases, so just like driver productivity, if the dwell time, the time it takes for that chassis to come back, or the time that the container's sitting on a chassis in the terminal as the dwell time goes up, you need more chassis to cover that delay.
00:37:57.039 --> 00:38:01.599
So yeah, on the ocean box side, on wheel facilities, there's been a problem with the NSF UP.
00:38:02.800 --> 00:38:12.480
But uh like I remind folks, on the ocean box side, you know, those are the only two rails that automatically wheel ocean boxes.
00:38:13.280 --> 00:38:22.719
CN, CPKC, CSX, Norfolk Southern, they all ground ocean boxes and it's the trucker's choice to bring a chassis.
00:38:23.199 --> 00:38:34.239
And there aren't I shouldn't say there's always issues, but there's aren't issues of finding ocean box chassis on the grounded facilities because the truckers got those.
00:38:34.800 --> 00:38:39.519
And they will take the boxes off if they have to to free up a chassis outside the terminal.
00:38:40.000 --> 00:38:49.760
So it's the UP and VNSF that are on the old way of doing ocean boxes of wheeling per their ocean lines request.
00:38:53.440 --> 00:38:56.400
So uh one other Chicago note.
00:38:56.480 --> 00:39:16.079
Uh the um uh a few years ago, back uh when things were going kind of crazy on on the freight side of things, uh you had a uh report of uh$12 million uh for Chicago Draymond in uh in one month in 2021 for uh just ramp storage fees.
00:39:16.239 --> 00:39:20.000
So um how how does that differ from like a typical month?
00:39:20.079 --> 00:39:22.400
And and where are we at uh today?
00:39:23.599 --> 00:39:24.960
I don't know, Kevin.
00:39:25.039 --> 00:39:38.960
I'm telling you, that getting people to reveal how much they paid in ramp storage was I was honored that people trust me to with their data, and I value trust and integrity in this business more than anything.
00:39:39.280 --> 00:39:52.239
So I had plenty of people that divulged to me how much they spent either to the railroad directly or to the ocean lines, made sure that wasn't overlapping, and that was incredible how much money spayed.
00:39:52.639 --> 00:40:18.639
But wouldn't it be interesting if you calculated the total number of volume of domestic containers through Chicago, the total number of ocean box containers that arrive in Chicago that would be subject to ramp storage, and say you added you take that total number of millions of containers, there was seven hundred I think we're at seven million lifts per year, seven point five million lifts in Chicago.
00:40:19.199 --> 00:40:22.320
It varies up and down, but that's how much volume happens in Chicago.
00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:42.800
So if you if those seven million lifts per year, and say you take a quarter of those and tack on whatever ramp storage you want to make, you know, 200 bucks, you know, 150 dollars a day, 200 bucks a day, depending on the rail, and then add that up.
00:40:42.960 --> 00:40:48.880
I mean, I that's a sizeable amount of money that the railroads and ocean lines make on storage.
00:40:50.960 --> 00:40:51.679
Yeah, it'd be interesting.
00:40:51.760 --> 00:40:53.440
That's another thing IANA could do.
00:40:53.599 --> 00:40:59.599
Maybe just like the cash reporting index on how much LTL companies get paid on their payables.
00:40:59.679 --> 00:41:07.519
Maybe we'd say all the IMCs and the the importers were like, how much money did you spend in storage last month?
00:41:07.840 --> 00:41:08.880
And just tallied up.
00:41:09.119 --> 00:41:10.239
Be interesting, wouldn't it?
00:41:10.400 --> 00:41:12.000
I mean, would be interesting.
00:41:12.159 --> 00:41:18.559
It's it's one of the reasons why uh some shippers shy away from intermodal because of those unknown fees that they they might get hit.
00:41:18.719 --> 00:41:20.639
Oh, you know, you get fancy splits.
00:41:21.119 --> 00:41:25.840
Yeah, you you yeah, it's like various fees, a lot of various accessorials.
00:41:26.079 --> 00:41:35.920
Some some shippers have gotten burned in the past and their IMC hasn't helped them through the process, and um either pulling it from the ramp if there happens to be a storage to a uh a yard that would be cheaper.
00:41:36.320 --> 00:41:38.400
Um there's all kinds of different things.
00:41:38.800 --> 00:41:39.679
Yeah, yeah.
00:41:40.880 --> 00:41:42.320
Yeah, so there's all kinds of things.
00:41:42.800 --> 00:41:46.400
Those types of things kind of kind of kind of scare some shippers away.
00:41:46.559 --> 00:41:46.719
Yeah.
00:41:47.199 --> 00:41:53.840
Just the the the water cooler stories and copier stories that are head um at those those areas in the office.
00:41:53.920 --> 00:41:55.840
And oh no, I'm never gonna do intermodal.
00:41:56.000 --> 00:42:03.360
I'm I we I still run across those um those chippers and and those stories uh when we try to you know transition people off a truck.
00:42:03.519 --> 00:42:05.760
No, I'm not going there for for those reasons.
00:42:06.000 --> 00:42:06.320
Yeah.
00:42:06.559 --> 00:42:08.719
Well, Rick, your people do a great job though.
00:42:08.800 --> 00:42:15.119
I mean, they know like when if you ship on a Monday from LA and you're going to Chicago, it's gonna arrive on a Friday probably.
00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:23.519
So you try to guide your customer into like, hey, can you postpone to like a Wednesday so it gets there for a Monday delivery because you're still doing the same?
00:42:23.840 --> 00:42:24.159
Right.
00:42:24.320 --> 00:42:37.920
So but yeah, that's your that's your role in in this business is to guide these folks on how to save money on intermodal transportation, but doing it in a schedule in a way that that works for the intermodal network to reduce those costs.
00:42:38.159 --> 00:42:40.719
So that's why that's it's so critical.
00:42:41.119 --> 00:42:49.840
Yeah, I mean a lot of folks that that try to transition from truck to intermodal, they go into it thinking, okay, the box is basically the same size and yada yada yada.
00:42:50.239 --> 00:42:55.440
But it what what we like to say is it's you know, intermodal is truck-like, it's not exactly like truck.
00:42:55.519 --> 00:43:04.400
So there's things that you need to know about the intermodal service, the intermodal network, and the various pieces and parts um, so you can be successful.
00:43:04.480 --> 00:43:08.719
Um, because if you just go into it just saying, okay, it's exactly like truck, boom, I'm done.
00:43:08.960 --> 00:43:11.840
You're gonna that's when you do get yourself in trouble.
00:43:12.079 --> 00:43:13.119
Yeah, yeah.
00:43:13.280 --> 00:43:24.719
That's why there's always gonna be a need for a third party to to minimize or maximize the value of doing intermodal, big box or small box.
00:43:25.840 --> 00:43:26.800
Certainly hope so.
00:43:27.039 --> 00:43:28.639
That's what keeps our doors open.
00:43:29.119 --> 00:43:31.920
Yeah, yeah, knowledge is amazing.
00:43:33.039 --> 00:43:36.960
So, so as the year continues, we are more than halfway through.
00:43:37.039 --> 00:43:48.159
Uh, what what do you think is is where things are heading in terms of of drage capacity and volume as uh as we get through the the rest of 2026 um and even beyond.
00:43:48.239 --> 00:43:53.360
We like we like to ask any any anybody who's following um the numbers kind of what their thoughts are.
00:43:53.519 --> 00:43:53.840
Yeah.
00:43:54.079 --> 00:43:57.599
Well, gosh, back in March, I I was wrong.
00:43:57.760 --> 00:44:02.960
Like I told this group, I'm like, I I can't see uh the consumer spending continuing.
00:44:03.119 --> 00:44:05.440
I didn't know the Iran war was gonna happen.
00:44:05.840 --> 00:44:09.760
So I was thinking it was gonna be a muted year, and then look at what happened.
00:44:10.000 --> 00:44:14.960
You've got the tariff thing, the forced labor that's bumping up import volumes.
00:44:15.039 --> 00:44:19.360
You've got trend the high diesels causing the shift to 53 foot enter modal.
00:44:19.679 --> 00:44:23.440
You got transload volume happening because of the the import push.
00:44:23.920 --> 00:44:27.760
So I I didn't see this coming in March, and March was five months ago.
00:44:29.599 --> 00:44:39.920
So I think for the rest of the year, I I can't see anything changing unless in some miraculous way diesel comes down and and there's a driver supply on the over-the-road side that comes back.
00:44:40.079 --> 00:44:44.719
I think domestic intermodals are gonna remain strong for the rest of the year.
00:44:45.760 --> 00:44:48.079
I'm still surprised by import volumes.
00:44:48.400 --> 00:44:55.119
You know, I keep thinking data center construction is gonna peter out and the whole AI bubble's gonna burst, and that hasn't happened yet.
00:44:56.000 --> 00:45:01.679
You know, and and home construction's not that great, so that's not contributing, but yeah, we got all this volume.
00:45:02.320 --> 00:45:09.519
So I mean if interest rates rise at the end of the year, is that going to is that when the bubbles are gonna burst?
00:45:10.800 --> 00:45:26.960
In other words, I don't know, but I feel like I feel like rage driver capacity will come back will will need to come back if the rate's pay enough, the drivers will come back, and they and I believe now there will be more qualified skill drivers than ever.
00:45:27.440 --> 00:45:40.639
And I think as an IMC or freight rover just like you vet over the road carriers, you need to vet your dramen, and so that's gonna be pressure on the drain who don't need those thresholds for safety.
00:45:41.519 --> 00:45:53.840
But I feel like if you know what you're doing and you vet your drayman, and there's big money being paid for transportation right now, I mean I think it's gonna be a good rest of the year.
00:45:54.320 --> 00:45:55.840
Don't ask me about 27, though.
00:45:55.920 --> 00:45:57.039
I have no idea.
00:45:57.920 --> 00:45:58.880
Certainly hope so.
00:45:59.039 --> 00:46:00.239
Certainly hope so.
00:46:00.559 --> 00:46:03.280
Well, Jason, thanks very much uh for all of this.
00:46:03.440 --> 00:46:05.440
Tell tell folks where they can find you.
00:46:05.599 --> 00:46:08.719
I mean, I think the the websites are pretty self-explanatory, right?
00:46:08.800 --> 00:46:12.719
But uh but uh tell folks where they can find more from you too.
00:46:12.960 --> 00:46:18.480
Yep, loadmatchdrage.com and if you're in Chicago, Intermodal Association of Chicago.org.
00:46:18.639 --> 00:46:21.199
And yeah, it's been a pleasure talking to both of you.
00:46:26.880 --> 00:46:36.400
So I guess we should say it now that this is our 100th episode between the Intermodal Logistics Podcast and InTech Freight and Logistics, the podcast.
00:46:36.559 --> 00:46:37.760
So uh excellent.
00:46:37.920 --> 00:46:38.800
Where's the fireworks?
00:46:39.599 --> 00:46:43.519
Yeah, I thought about getting like uh one of those uh noisemakers or something.
00:46:43.679 --> 00:46:48.239
Uh yeah, we could have kept some sparklers from the 4th of July, not not too far long ago.
00:46:48.320 --> 00:46:54.000
But uh but yeah, excited to to hit that milestone.
00:46:54.159 --> 00:47:22.320
And uh Jason, a great way to uh to celebrate it by talking about one of the the key components of uh of intermodal that uh I feel like you've been talking about more uh in the last several months, uh kind of drilling in, and you mentioned during the episode as well, how important uh drayage is to the actual on schedule, uh uncomplicated uh arrival of a load.
00:47:22.639 --> 00:47:23.679
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
00:47:23.840 --> 00:47:29.599
And and and it's become a bigger and bigger issue as drivers have left the market.
00:47:29.840 --> 00:47:36.159
Um we've seen and it at the same time that volume is picking up because of the things that are going on in the truckload world.
00:47:36.400 --> 00:47:47.119
Um so I I thought it was great to have Jason on because he's one of the ones out there that speaks the most and and most knowledgeable about what's going on in the drain network.
00:47:47.280 --> 00:47:53.760
I know he's got a lot of stuff and a lot of people go to him because of what's going on in Chicago, but his information is beyond just Chicago.
00:47:53.920 --> 00:47:54.079
Yeah.
00:47:54.400 --> 00:48:09.840
Um and one of the parts that I really found interesting is the part that we've been running across several times over again, which is the driver capacity is leaving the market, and because they're leaving because they're illegal in some form or fashion, um, they're not coming back.
00:48:10.400 --> 00:48:13.280
And well, I I say that.
00:48:13.519 --> 00:48:18.000
Um Jason Miller um from Michigan State um.
00:48:20.960 --> 00:48:23.840
So I was trying to remember if it if he was our last one or not.
00:48:24.400 --> 00:48:30.320
Uh every now and then Shelly sneaks into a conversation here and I and I'm not part of it um of that podcast.
00:48:30.719 --> 00:48:38.960
And in any case, both of them have said um that if rates return, drivers will return.
00:48:39.119 --> 00:48:39.519
There's enough.
00:48:39.920 --> 00:48:40.639
There will be drivers.
00:48:40.880 --> 00:48:41.840
There will be drivers.
00:48:42.159 --> 00:48:43.519
You build it, they will come.
00:48:43.920 --> 00:48:45.519
Yeah, I I thought that was interesting too.
00:48:45.679 --> 00:48:51.360
And uh Jason Hilsenbeck today said something that Jason Miller had just said to us uh on the last episode.
00:48:51.519 --> 00:48:58.079
Uh the the numbers actually are bearing it out now for on the drainage side from uh the dip, and now it's going back up again.
00:48:58.400 --> 00:48:59.599
And that's that's great news.
00:48:59.760 --> 00:49:02.079
Um that's great news for lots of folks.
00:49:02.239 --> 00:49:11.679
Um it's great news for the the drainage community to be able to come back um and and be able to move freight at a a profit for themselves.
00:49:11.840 --> 00:49:25.679
Um and it's great for the IMCs out there to be able to see that that increase as well, so that we can offer and and feel confident in the services that we provide on the shippers that they transition from truckload to intermodal um during this time period.
00:49:25.840 --> 00:49:29.039
So um that was I mean, he had a lot of good information.
00:49:29.199 --> 00:49:44.800
I mean, one of the pieces of information that uh I wrote down as we um separated out is that right now the driver um we're just the driver um or the licensed drivers is just down, you know, about 10 to 20,000 drivers from where it was.
00:49:45.440 --> 00:49:48.320
480 is is sort of like the the going number.
00:49:48.719 --> 00:49:57.119
Yeah, and it we're just down a little bit right now from where we were in whatever we want to call normal, but we're we're calling normal 2018.
00:49:58.559 --> 00:50:02.079
Yeah, 2018, 2019 into the run of 2020.
00:50:02.320 --> 00:50:12.800
And so that's also positive and and feels it gives me some confidence again that that uh the service level um is gonna be there for those those people that are transitioning out.
00:50:12.880 --> 00:50:25.119
So anyway, this I thought this was a great hundredth um uh episode I mean to to have on on the topic because the other thing is you said I I've been talking a lot about drayage, and that's the part I think often gets missed.
00:50:25.280 --> 00:50:34.079
You got three parts of intermodal, two of them are drayage, but most of the conversation that goes on about intermodal is what's what's going on with the railroads.
00:50:34.159 --> 00:50:34.480
Yeah.
00:50:34.719 --> 00:50:40.880
Um and most of the problems happen at the the drayage segments.
00:50:41.360 --> 00:50:43.360
There's just there's just more to deal with.
00:50:43.840 --> 00:50:49.119
Yes, there's more to deal with and there's all the variables he was talking about and uh and variables that we didn't even touch on.
00:50:49.360 --> 00:50:50.800
Oh yeah, absolutely.
00:50:51.280 --> 00:50:55.440
Uh so if you've joined us for all 100, thank you very much.
00:50:55.599 --> 00:50:58.239
If this is your first episode, thank you very much too.
00:50:58.320 --> 00:50:59.039
We appreciate it.
00:50:59.199 --> 00:51:09.119
And uh please do subscribe, follow wherever you get your podcasts, drop us a comment, like, rate review, all of that stuff is uh great for us.
00:51:09.360 --> 00:51:26.239
If you have uh other questions for us or deeper comments that you want to take offline, feel free to email us at podcast at intechlogistics.com and you can visit our website, www.intechlogistics.com, for more about the company.
00:51:26.559 --> 00:51:29.760
Again, thanks to Jason Hilsonbeck for joining us today.
00:51:29.840 --> 00:51:31.039
And Rick, thank you.
00:51:31.280 --> 00:51:32.239
Great to be back.
00:51:32.400 --> 00:51:35.519
We will be back again soon with another episode.
