speaker-0: When a customer or a client is experiencing a service, they're not only comparing to your competition, they are also comparing it to other categories. Today, e-complayers are managing the reverse logistics. It is very painful. Reverse logistics is the most painful kind of you know transaction to.
speaker-1: Who is sitting on top of everything to see whether the transformation, because you mentioned that 20 % is the only equation when it comes to measurement.
speaker-0: Platforms are not going to transform things for you. Platforms are going to help you identify issues early. Where does the insight come in? The insight comes in the fact that my detractor is also a detractor for the competition or it is a promoter. Or my promoter is also a promoter for competition or a detractor for the competition.
speaker-1: Where do they lose the focus? If I really need to tell a CEO that before you invest into a CX Transformation program, what is the checkpoint? What kind of advice would you give them that you need to have these checkpoints before you actually get into it? Welcome to another episode of the Collaborative Canvas. Customer experience has become one of the most discussed topics in business today. Organizations are investing heavily in CX programs, customer journey mapping, NPS tracking, AI-powered engagement, and transformation initiative. Yet, many of these efforts fail to deliver meaningful business impact. And the reason is very simple. We always ask this question to ourselves, why is that? Is the problem in how we measure experiences or is it in how we transform organizations around it? To help us unpack these questions, I'm joined by Raja Buned, a customer experience and operational excellence consultant with over 24 years of experience in quantitative research and CX. Raja is also the former CEO of Ipsos India and has worked extensively at the intersection of customer insights, operational performances, and business transformation. One of the ideas that immediately caught my attention during my conversations with Raja was his view that CX measurement and CX transformations are two completely different ballgames. He also speaks extensively about what he calls CX transformation pitfalls. The blind spot organizations often overlook before they even begin their transformation journey. We will also explore his innovative concept, the strength of NPS metric and discuss why a strong net promoter score may not always mean a strong competitive position. If you're a business leader, CX professional, researcher, marketer, founder, or anyone responsible for improving customer outcomes, this conversation is packed with practical insights. So let's get this started. Welcome, sir.
speaker-0: Thank you so much, Ankesh. Thank you so much for having me today.
speaker-1: Sir, to start with, would probably say, the last time when we were talking about, we specifically mentioned about customer transformation and customer experience measurement. But to start with, and specifically for the people, like students who are right now probably be hearing this, how do we define CX transformation and CX measurement? Before that, even CX.
speaker-0: So I think just to put it very simply, and it is simply to understand how customers or your clients are experiencing what you're delivering to them. It could be in form of a product, it could be in form of a service, or it could be on a platform, right? Either delivered in person or via a platform, via tech platform, but essentially Simply put, it is how customers experience what you are delivering to them. As simple as that. And then we transition into two important parts. One is to understand how that is getting delivered and how customers are receiving this service, which is the measurement part. And then what the businesses need to do to ensure that what customers want are getting, right? So essentially, if you look at the entire equation of CX, one part is measurement. Which actually is only 15 to 20 percent of the equation. The remaining 80 to 85% essentially is the transformation bit. ⁓ And that is where I think a lot of focus needs to be given today within the CX equation by businesses. Because today there is massive amount of data that organizations have on customer ⁓ experience measurement. Some data is available directly through surveys that they conduct, through research that they conduct. Otherwise, there is a lot of information available on competition as well as you know competitive categories through secondary research. But essentially, where a lot of focus is required ⁓ as from a strategy standpoint is on the business transformation. And I I for a purpose do not only call it CX transformation, I call it business transformation because That is the shift that we need to see. ⁓ you know, ⁓ and start calling it business transformation and not only CX. We'll we'll touch upon the reasons why.
speaker-1: And that's something that I'm just about to come to that how come most of those companies actually misunderstood between those two terms?
speaker-0: Well, I think ⁓ if you if I wish to draw a parallel between, you know, business transformation, CX transformation, and one key element of business, which is Six Sigma. Right. Now Six Sigma is a complete mindset change. Right. Six Sigma has to come top down. The the CEO of the organization has to drive it. Similarly, when we talk about CX transformation or business transformation, it has to come top down. Number one, because whatever you say, There are silos that exist in an organization, right? Typically, when we are whenever we talk about CX, you you start to think about one particular function or one particular individual within the organization who is responsible for CX. But that particular function or or person cannot carry out the transformation that is required. Now the marketing person will think only about acquisition. Exactly. Right? The finance person, quite rightly so, right? Only think about cost savings, right, or revenue. At the same time, the tech guy will only think about platforms and what I can do to make things better. The CX guy will say, Okay, my NPS is growing, you know, or that is done. But essentially, when a customer or a client are experiencing a service, they're not only comparing to your competition, they are also comparing it to other categories. Right? One typical example, if I could quote, is the simplicity and the speed with which Today, e-complayers are managing the reverse logistics. It is very painful. Reverse logistics is the most painful kind of transaction to do. But for me as a consumer, it is so seamless. Right? Today I ordered something by mistake, instead of a shampoo, I ordered a conditioner. It took me just less than one minute to do it on the platform. If I were to go to a bank or for that matter, any service point.
speaker-1: That's right.
speaker-0: Right? The I'm making an effort to go there. I really don't want to break my head and and start investing more time in explaining things to people. Right. so I think it it had it has to be a concept which is consumed by the entire organization rather than one individual or one function which only takes care of CX. So I think that is the fundamental difference between measurement and transformation, I would say.
speaker-1: But considering that every individual as in every department measure their own capacity, their own KPIs, who's sitting on top of everything to see whether the transformation, because you mentioned that 20 % is the only question when it comes to measurement, who's actually keeping the top-eye view to ensure that transformation is happening, it is actually, they're seeing the change, they're actually working towards.
speaker-0: Okay, so t typically if you look at how an organization is structured, right? I mean, you have the head of marketing, the CMO, you have the CFO, right? You might have the head of consumer insight sitting over there, finally the CEO, right? Now, whenever you look at governance initiatives or you look at ISO initiatives, right, or for that matter, Six Sigma, it has to come top down. So the executive committee has to believe in the tr kind of transformation you need to do, right? Now, one fundamental difference between measurement and transformation is measurement is it you can carry out it at a periodic level, right? Either you capture that data at a quarterly level, or for that matter, at any point of consumption, right? Or interaction, you you capture that data within transactional research as well. But transformation has to be continuous. The the person or the individual or the function involved in the entire value chain has to understand. You know what this particular transformation is about, and most importantly, what that individual brings to the table as far as the transformation is concerned. Right. The moment you talk about ⁓ you know, what that particular person or function contributes to the overall ⁓ you know ambition of the transformation, that is when you start building ownership, right? So the concept of ownership needs to be invibed ⁓ within the organization. Which which has to come top down as a part of transformation.
speaker-1: So which means that every single department has to work on that equation eventually. then the delivered KPIs would determine how the transformation would look like at the end.
speaker-0: Absolutely. Absolutely. And it needs investment, it needs time because it is not easy. See, humans are the most averse to change. Right? If you tell a particular person that I mean, he would say, No, but this is how it is being done. This is how I will do it. Right? Platforms are there. Platforms are helping you look at things or get the information quickly. But platforms are not going to transform things for you. Platforms are going to help you identify
speaker-1: You
speaker-0: ⁓ issues early.
speaker-1: So as much as I understood that measurement basically is something which is more theoretical and you can actually evaluate by looking at the equation, you are looking at the numbers which are coming. Transformation is more practical as to how you wanted to implement it because even with the platforms you will still get the data.
speaker-0: Absolutely. It has to be on the Quran. It has to be tangibly seen.
speaker-1: So, is there a timeline for the transformation to happen? Do organizations keep that timeline or it is just like another periodic work path?
speaker-0: Two parts to it. One is ⁓ something which is really strategic in nature, right? Which is something has to be maintained over a period of time, which means that it needs to become a way of working for the organization. Now, whenever you touch upon something which you know gets into ways of working, which which that is where a lot of pushback happens, right? A lot of people say, no, no, this is going to change our lives. But essentially transformation is about that. Transformation is about automizing, digitizing processes, manual processes, which don't nobody need today. Right? I'll give you a classic example of something recently that I had to do. ⁓ there were two processes that this particular organization was following: one an online process, one a manual process. Right? Online, you're very easy to do. The moment I went to the office.
speaker-1: go very seamless.
speaker-0: I was asked to give documents which I never had, right? Now, this is obviously with you know one of the state governments, they wanted my Russian card. I said, I don't have a Russian card. Why would I need a Russian card? Right? But for in the manual process, a Russian card is mandatory, but in an online process, there is no Russian card, right? So what has happened here is whatever transformation happened as far as digitizing the entire process is concerned. The manual process got overlooked. Right. So this is a level of transformation that now this is a typical case where the organization is still operating in silos. Right. Because the tech department might have discussed why do you need this? Why is this required? But it did not flow into the manual process. Right? So
speaker-1: Technically, transformation doesn't have a set deadlines. It is all about how people are.
speaker-0: Continuous process. See, like I why I keep talking about Six Sigma because I think Six Sigma is the best way to explain to people how CX transformation is important and how strategic it is. Now, Six Sigma cannot be broken down, right? It cannot happen for six months and then you stop and then you you know restart it. Six sigma is a way of working. Six sigma is how industry or the the organization needs to operate, right? Similarly, CX transformation is also continuous. Why? Number one, the clients, your clients or customers keep experiencing things in their own kind of ecosystem, right? It is not necessary that they are only experiencing your competition. For example, if I today have exposure to a fintech entity, it completely changes my expectation from a bank. It completely changes my service delivery expectation from an insurance provider. So I think the way FinTech if is you know changing things around us and making things difficult for organizations that are still, you know, looking at traditional ways of customer service delay. I'm not saying that the traditional ways need to be replaced, right? They need to be there because they have a very important more improved So the dissonance between the two has to get minimized.
speaker-1: So what are basic transformation pitfalls in that case?
speaker-0: See one thing is that typically an organization starts to think that CX transformation is only only is the keyword here, is only about customer or client initiatives. It isn't. It is big time about business transformation. That is the first pitfall, right? The second pitfall, which is strongly connected to this one, is that if there is no a weak Executive alignment at the top, right? Then the cross-functional alignment goes for a toss. It is if it is weak, it is weak, then the cross-functional alignment goes for a toss. What does that mean? It means that it will continue to become a customer-related initiative and owned by the function that is responsible for CX, which is what we started the discussion with, right?
speaker-1: No weak. It is weak.
speaker-0: So, but it is not at all that because if the customer delivery has to improve, a lot of processes need to change. Right? And the processes cut across functions, they cut across marketing, they cut across sales, they cut across governance, they cut across finance, they cut across tech teams, right? It cut the processes cut across all entities. Right? So transformation, when you say that CX transformation only about customer initiatives.
speaker-1: Exactly.
speaker-0: Then the message that you're giving, ⁓ CX kayak team manage kariga, yeah, worker marketing under set karma, insights me, they will manage it. I am from governance, how why should I bother about it? But the but the the the essence here is that if you want to transform things, there will be certain governance or regulatory requirements that you will have to evaluate. Right? If you need to be more quick. You need to simplify things, right? People are going to say that, okay, do we need this? Because this is taking time. This particular approval process is taking time. Right? What can we do to actually remove it? So the these two become very, very critical. That you know, number one, it you shouldn't look at it as a only customer initiative. It has to be a business transformation initiative, which is where the cross-functional pitfalls that we talked about will will start to disappear. The other thing is about people. Right? Now you might adopt a lot of tech, but that tech it will not decide your strategy. Right? The strategy should decide what tech you need. In fact, what AI also you need, right? What dimension of AI you need to kind of build into it. So people, ⁓ you know, which is where you need to talk about. I always talk about a pull strategy rather than a push strategy with people. Right. Push strategy is something which you're forcing people to do. But pull is something that you want people to understand that they want to own it. They themselves want to do it. Right. So which is where again a business transformation initiative, if you look at it from that perspective, only then it will happen. Otherwise ops will say, Why should I change? I'm doing good. My NPS is good. Alright, but little do they know, you talked about strength of NPS, little do they know that my competition also has the same NPS. So I have no competitive advantage there, right? So you need to work towards reducing effort cost of your clients, of your customers. Otherwise, you will keep loop be in a loop of measurement. You'll keep tracking KPIs. Your NPS increases by a couple of points, you feel happy. Or your detractor suddenly increase, you say, ⁓ my goodness, what what is happening? And if your passives are remaining as passives and not graduating to promoters, then you're not gaining anything.
speaker-1: Yeah, true. I really wanted to ask this question, but after speaking with you for the last 10-15 minutes, I realized this question is actually meaningless. So the question was that, why did you actually switch from being in research for 24 years to CX measurement and CX transformation? And I think so far what we learned from Raja is all about the transformation. And it's not that easy why transformation takes a lot of time. So rather than skipping, I'll skip this question because now I understood why actually you transformed. Probably you switch into more a consultative mode to help organizations understand this vital difference. Talking about the NPS, the strength of NPS you mentioned, people generally look at scores to, again, going back to the same citation, 20 % is the measurement. Now, people, when they look at the scores, they exactly know key. what is on and where they really need to head their business on. And when we are talking about business transformation, where do they lose the focus? Because I think action doesn't happen as per the... and probably I'll make it a little controversial because I've seen research happens, they get the outcomes, but the transformation never happens.
speaker-0: So I think, you know, that that typically happens and I don't blame ⁓ the teams that actually own the Metrices. But I think what really happens is they get too involved and focus on the score, right? And they keep chasing the KPI. You know, in every meeting they say, okay, mira, you know, NPS score, kya hai, whether in which direction it is heading, right? So I'll tell you an interesting kind of ⁓ you know story here. I was with one of our ⁓ you know BFSI clients. And in that meeting we started to talk about NPS because NPS measurement was a key metric. And I said that, well, I think NPS is one measure, but we also need a lot of other measures that can marry or that can connect to your business metric. Right. And ⁓ and since we were talking about BFSI, ⁓ there is share of business and share of wallet, is you know, it cuts across correct ⁓ brands and and entities. So there obviously we we had The client NPS as well as the ⁓ competition NPS. And one thing when I deep dive into that, I said I asked the question to myself, well, if my NPS is so and so, how does it matter? So what? What do I do with it? Right? The the next thing was that to look at how my competition is doing, right? Or if my customer is giving the promoter for me, is that customer also a promoter for my competition?
speaker-1: Exactly.
speaker-0: Now, where does the insight come in? The insight comes in the fact that my detractor is also a detractor for the competition or it is a promoter, or my promoter is also a promoter for competition or a detractor for the competition, right? Or a passive. If my promoter is a passive for competition, competition can easily work on them and get them to be a promoter. Right? Which means that my business is at risk. Right? So I think. When people look at scores as only KPIs and aim to just meet those KPIs over a period of time, unless or until there is a mega shift that has happened, or some big kind of operational issue has happened within the organization because of which a big pain point it gave you know rise to a big pain point, and NPS falls down. That is when organizations get into diagnostics and start to understand. I would say a mega shift has happened in thinking if our organization is concerned, and especially in BFSI because of fintech. FinTech is has really disrupted, I would say, the entire business model of traditional BFSI ⁓ you know, businesses. And it is giving them, you know, a lot of ideas as well. I would not say that fintech is only a threat, it is also giving them a lot of ideas, right? Now
speaker-1: It has actually made the fintech industry actually eased the entire process for the consumer experience overall.
speaker-0: Absolutely. And they still operate within the same governance environment. They still have to abide by that. Again, we come back to down to people, right? Now, FinTech, since these are new organizations, they are completely digitally and tech driven as compared to traditionally operating business models, which is where a business model shift is also required. Business it is very easy to say that I need to shift my business model. But the problem is that whether people Are are ready to do that. At times I I was ⁓ I was speaking with somebody ⁓ you know very recently, a month back, and and ⁓ this gentleman, a very senior marketing professional, said that ⁓ I think a lot of the AI initiatives ⁓ get derailed by people themselves, right? Because they look at AI as a threat, right? And and and at times you you hit a roadblock and say that okay, my people are not ready to do this. But unfortunately your customers and clients are moving ahead. They are migrating from traditional to fintech. FinTech is and I admire FinTech for that matter, as far as you know customer delivery is concerned. And it is very quick. It is very quick.
speaker-1: When it comes to actually understanding how people are being part of this transformation, think transformation only works then. Because when you were actually talking about FinTech, the thought which was coming to my mind was about how quickly the usage of UPI has taken over the entire nation. Every person, even those hawker centers, with Chhota Thelewala, everybody is taking UPI.
speaker-0: Absolutely.
speaker-1: So, ⁓ it's no more that you to the bank, then you'll draw the cash, then you'll give it to him. think, ATM usage has already drastically gone down. So, transformation took new time, but I think in a much better way. again, the point is, what exactly are we missing when it comes to seeing the action against the scores. Okay.
speaker-0: I think a beautiful example of UPI. One one key reason why I think UPI has really succeeded well, it is because it has reduces you reduce the effort the consumer has to make. Right? Managing cash is a huge effort. Either you go to the bank to withdraw cash or you go to the ATM, but you still need to make an effort to go. Right? Today you don't need to do anything. It is and we started a discussion by talking about, you know, consumer effort score, right? If you focus On the effort that your client or a customer has to make to consume or ⁓ you know ⁓ consume the the the delivery of the product, right? That is where you can make huge shifts in transformation. The the single point of transformation is to reduce the effort of your customer. Reduce and that is what the customer looks at. Now with UPI, I don't need anybody, if I don't have cash, somebody is coming, I have to rush to the ATM, you know, spend that fuel or walk or make that effort, do that, you know, come and then make the payment. But today with UPI, there's no effort at all. Absolutely no effort. So the one one single reason I would say why it has really helped, you know, ⁓ or caught up and and you know. got adopted by people because it does reduce effort. And that is what people want to look at today.
speaker-1: But that's the only, let's talk about fintech. I mean, that's only the example that I can say it out. But it was easy. People were able to accommodate too because it was making their life easier. But there's so many companies, you know, other than fintech industry, there are other companies who are also getting through those transformation phase and that gap of NPS has always been seen there. Our score is like, fintabulous, you know, but those... I mean, I wanted to pull you into the same thought which we spoke when we were on the phone, strength of NPS, how does it work for them in that?
speaker-0: See what Centre of NPS gives you a very clear picture of how your NPS stands as compared to competition. It gives you a clear competitive context, right? So if your NPS is 80, right? And your competition NPS is also 80, what it tells you? It tells you that okay, my competition has the same level of NPS. So is there a threat? Well, there is a threat. But the extent of threat.
speaker-1: always.
speaker-0: Is when you figure out when you break down the NPS into its three segments of detractors, passives, and providers, and say that my NPS is 80, but actually the quality of my NPS is not that great. Why? Because a lot of my promoters, a significant chunk of my promoters, are also my competition promoters. Right? If I do something wrong, they are immediately going to
speaker-1: Correct.
speaker-0: Right. At the same at the same time, I have a set of detractors, and 30% of detractors are actually passives of my competition. Right. Or 20% of my detractors are are promoters, which means that 50% of my detractor base is at huge risk. They can switch to being promoters of my competition. That is a huge business risk. What strength of NPS tells you?
speaker-1: But They can switch to promoter.
speaker-0: Is this particular information and what you need to do to ensure that you start moving or detractors to being passives and then promoters? Right? What key actions you need? For example, it will tell you that this particular segment of customers are more detractors as compared to other segments. For example, within a banking context, ⁓ asset and lending, right? Now for a bank. ⁓ a loan which I take is my liability, but it is an asset for the bank because the bank is making money on whatever it is lending. It is. Right. So for an asset for a particular line of assets, say home loan, right? Or long term loans or education loan, right? If they figure out that there is a huge disparity in NPS in home loan versus education loan, which means that there is something fundamentally wrong in a particular process of either home loan or education loan. At the same time, it will tell them that, okay, for my competition actually, home loan is doing wonderfully well. And my detractors are at huge risk not only on home loan but also education loan. Right. Because when you diagnose the data, you don't only get share of wallet by brands, you also get share of wallet by products. So I might have a home loan. I have a son who is getting into engineering now. I might need an education loan. Which bank will I go to?
speaker-1: Correct.
speaker-0: Will I go to my main bank or will I go to a bank where I o already have, you know, lending products from my point of view, right? Loan products.
speaker-1: Another bank would also be where you are comparing product to product which is easier for your ⁓ wallet share.
speaker-0: Correct. So if my bank hasn't delivered to me well on a particular kind of product, I would switch. Even though a lot of investment sit over there because the investment is sticky, right? But lending is not sticky. I might go rent interest rate at chamila me maha chalaga. Right? But I got a service up, door step service milta, you might still want to shell out a bit more, you might be willing to do that. Right?
speaker-1: Exactly. Correct.
speaker-0: But I think what strength of NPS tells you the quality of your NPS score and how does it stand versus competition. That is one that you are operating within the competitive framework. The other thing that you could do, which I always advise clients, is to look at categories or industries which are evolving and models that you can take inspiration from. Right? Now, one if I am speaking to a banking client, I would obviously say that. You know, look at and also include in your measurement a fintech brand. Right. And you will find that you have a wonderful share of wallet over there. Or also include an e-comm business, right? When you whenever you're measuring NPS, because it will tell you what consumers look ⁓ at. Today, if you look at, for that matter, I I it is okay if I name brands, right? ⁓ or companies. So if you look at Amazon.
speaker-1: I mean, totally up to you. ⁓
speaker-0: I admire Amazon a lot because the way they have been able to reduce operational friction, which is a key element of transformation, is amazing. Right? I talked about reverse logistics. Yeah. The way they have been able to eliminate operational friction, I don't see any other business doing that across categories. It is seamless. It is simple. Today people want simplicity, they want speed, and they want the least amount of effort. See. These are not their tasks that they really want to spend time on. They don't want to do enough work to do. So these three elements: one is absolutely simple, speed, and effortless. These are the three, I would say, fundamentals of any transformation initiative that one would want to do. And when you diagnose NPS from these three lenses and ask the right questions to people: why are you my detractor and why are you my competitions promoter? Then you get these kind of insights. And that is where I think measurement stops and transformation starts because that is where you also need to go to the operations guy and say that listen, my or your customers are saying that they want this. Right? This is where you know things are not working well. And that is why they could actually go. Your client or your customer is going. Right, when you use such words, your that is which you know that is something that builds ownership. So I think the the effort to reduce and operational friction is not only with operations, it could be with governance, because operations is a big word, right? ⁓ under it, it could be finance, it could be processes of approvals. They create fri friction. The same team would say, Okay, I want to digitize it, leave it, remove it. Right? So In a manual process or in a traditional framework, why can't we do that? So, one thing that you know when when we started to look at the internet or you know, going back a few decades, right, what we saw? We saw that okay, people said, mirror relevance khatamojai. I will start to lose ownership. Right? When you a small kid, right, you give him a toy. Okay, you ask for the toy, the kid will say, No, no, I don't want to give it. That is ownership. Right? The moment you give him a video game. That toy might go. Right? So, and then you take away the video game. Again, the sense of ownership builds. Right? What you're doing is you're you're telling that particular individual that the toy is still yours, but this video game is even yours, more yours, right? Correct. So so that is how you build ownership. So I think you know when when you look at strength of NPS and you do a workshop with internal stakeholders, see internal stakeholders. Char point, but again, sub kushang. Sub bullying, ⁓ wow, you know, all of us have done well. But the moment you tell them that listen, your detractor base of 30% is at huge risk because then your NPS is going to go away. Right? That is what strength of NPS brings to the table. It clearly tells you what is the quality of your NPS and what what is at threat on both sides of the scale, detractors as well as promoters.
speaker-1: A little more explanation on that. So considering a company has a higher net promoter score, are they still failing on their competitive advantage?
speaker-0: There could be. There could be. See, NPS is not a zero-sum game, right? So so if if bank A has an NPS of 83, not necessarily means that bank B or Bank 2 might not have a NPS of 83. Both the banks could have a similar NPS, right? The like I said, once I break down the 83 into detractors, into passives, right, and into promoters.
speaker-1: you have to segregate it further.
speaker-0: it you will have to segregate it further and then within detractors you'll have to do a competition analysis. Within promoters you will have to do a competition analysis to see that okay. So let's say I have done a survey with thousand people.
speaker-1: But what you're comparing is two banks with a similar score. I'm saying what if one bank actually has a higher score?
speaker-0: You still could be at risk. You still could be at risk. You still could be at risk. Why? Because if you are still doing better, that bank has a higher detractor base, right? But your customers are also detractors or passives. If they do something, then your detractor will start moving into passive. Which means that your NPS score is going to get impacted. Right? The moment they start to do
speaker-1: That's exactly what I'm trying to understand. Correct.
speaker-0: You know, something very innovative or very transformative, your customer base is going to get affected. See, these are you know industries where you see ⁓ you know multiple brands or multiple services from different you know companies or entities getting consumed. On the other hand, if you look at industrial, it is a zero-sum game, right? Zero-sum game from a wallet perspective. Right? For example, it is steel, right? So you might be taking cold roll or hot. From one particular steel plant, right? It is you are actually doing that because you need that, and the capacity is not there. So, the moment the competition increases their capacity, you start to lose business. Which is where you will figure out that actually, for in the industrial context, NPS is a wonderful metric because it clearly tells you that you know, and in in in an industrial context. The the client is not only talking to the the marketing team, they're also speaking to finance, they're also speaking to ⁓ production, they're also speaking to quality. So they have visibility across functions.
speaker-1: So, I think this is where exactly the CX does not become a research problem anymore, it gets into the operation excellence problem.
speaker-0: Absolutely. Absolutely. That is why I said that the entire CX equation, measurement is 20%. The remaining is in word. Right? That inward needs that 20%. Right? That 20% is a very critical part of the equation because that 20% tells you how you're delivering today and what your customers want. That 20% will also tell you that your the the category with Which you want to learn or where you want to aspire as far as service delivery is concerned, how they are doing and what they are doing. That measurement brings. Right? But you keep tracking NPS without doing any transformation. And changes and transformation are very big things. Change is very tactical, very periodic. Okay, I will what I will do in the peak season, ⁓ admissions ka time, education loans are going to be at peak. What I'm going to do is I'm going to remove these approval processes for a month or two. Then I'm going to bring them back. This is not transformation. This is a tactical change. Right? Because people will say, okay, okay, the governance person will say, okay, I need to manage something here. I will do I'll manage it. But from a transformation perspective, it has to be continuous. You need one parti permanent fix over there. That is where ⁓ you know change and transformation is very different.
speaker-1: I think that's exactly where we see the intersection of the research problem stops and the operational excellence starts.
speaker-0: Absolutely. And operational excellence, like I said, is not only ops, it is finance, it is governance, it is marketing. Everybody's
speaker-1: Yes, of course. It's a culmination of almost everything. Okay, you tell me something. mean now considering like you know whatever we spoke about till date has been already operational you know when it comes to CX measurement or CX transformation until let's say 2023. The reason why I'm taking this year is because after that I started hearing about chat GPTs and you know AI evolution into the market research. So I wanted to emphasize a little bit on AI. How's AI helping in this transformation process in that case?
speaker-0: Okay. See, I would say that AI is a wonderful enabler, right? ⁓ and I tell you why. Because pre-transformation, businesses and functions within businesses have been operating in silos. Which means a lot of data gets housed in marketing, lot of data gets housed in governance, lot of data gets housed in sales. But rarely those data points come together. We talk about ERPs and all of that. What AI brings to the table is to get all that data together and give you one particular insight. Right? So, which means that AI becomes a wonderful tool to diagnose data like we never could do earlier. Right? So it has diminished lines across functions, which means the cross-functional collaboration that we talked about, AI bic has become the biggest enabler there, right? However, it also gets misused, right? What it does, it then motivates people to go onto one particular platform and say that, okay, so this is my process. What can I change? Or what can I do? Right? But it, or you will say that, okay, can you make this process more efficient? AI will tell you what your process is today, but it will not bring consumer insights and say what the consumer wants tomorrow, right? So, what redesigning or changes you need in the process of workflow is something that you have to do and then get onto AI and say that, you know, how do I take it to people or how do I make it more efficient? Whatever prompt you will get, you will get that. Okay. It it is only going to amplify the weakness that you have in a particular process or workflow. It is not going to correct for it. ⁓ Exactly. It is not going to correct for it. So I think the
speaker-1: whatever prompt you will give.
speaker-0: What AI also brings to the table is getting housing everything together, right? And that also means that one particular function, you know, like I said, the kid example of the toy, right? So here, that particular human owns the data. The moment you start giving access to data, you start losing ownership. ⁓ Right? And and which is where I think the concept again of telling people that they are contributing to what? needs to be, you know, clearly told to people so that then they they you know, sh start sharing
speaker-1: Technically, transformation is not that easy the way we look at it. Even if the NGPS score is high, there are so many things that we really need to get into the details of it to find out where do we stand overall in the show.
speaker-0: So so yeah, like I said, not only competition but the category which you which you look up to.
speaker-1: Exactly. mean considering that if we see overall competition, then competition actually drives down to the bottom of the product line that you actually have. It is not that your first 4 products are and rest are not doing so you don't even have to worry about. You probably have to look into the product line across. And this is where I think the strength of NPS works because now you can drill down to the minutest of the research problem that can help you better the operational excellence over a period of time. Correct.
speaker-0: Absolutely. Absolutely.
speaker-1: But I am still thinking that operational excellence doesn't come at just one go even with inception of AI. AI can help you react faster. If my consumer experience is not going good, where I can plug the dots to ensure that doing X or Y or Z thing, this would help me improve in X period of time or does it? Can we define that we this time?
speaker-0: Well, I think ⁓ the timeline is really critical. ⁓ why? Because if there is no timeline then you never know when then when this is going to finish. So I don't think it is an AI thing. It is again the the the
speaker-1: Exhibitive I'm not talking about AI Raja, I'm talking about AI has given you a certain solution. Of course, it's not a clear cut solution. You you ended a research problem by solving ⁓ or using AI. You your NPS score. Now to get into an actual operational excellence problem, you really need to define at what certain point of time I need to be operationally excellent. Do we define that date? Do we define that timeline?
speaker-0: Absolutely, we should. We need to do that. Because ⁓ every function or every initiative needs a very hard timeline, right? Now, what that timeline is, or what it depends on how critical the problem is, right? The problem statement here becomes the fundamental, right? Now, if the problem statement is such a huge statement that you enter into business risk, it could be because of some disruption that has happened in tech, right? Which could You know, change things overnight. ⁓ you know, ⁓ mobile platform, if I could talk about it, a classic example of how a particular organization couldn't see what the other is getting to the table, right? I'm talking about Android. Android was a big disruptor, right? It changed how mobile consumption happened on how with what ease, you know, we could do it. ⁓ but if that is the kind of disruption that somebody gets in a service delivery, right? Again, I talked about simplicity, I talked about speed, and I talked about effort. If there is something that comes under these three dimensions which changes the game, then your timeline is today, right? Timeline is not tomorrow or day after. So it depends on ⁓ you know what problem you're solving, right? If the problem needs massive investment in tech and AI, then obviously it is going to take that time. But then you need to kind of break it down into tactical and strategical. And say that out of these, you know, ten things that I have to do, these are the three things that I can do now. These are the three things I can do tomorrow, and these are the you know other three things or seven four things which I can do later or I might not do because my cost benefit analysis doesn't allow me to do.
speaker-1: So ⁓ let's take this example as again. Let's make it more classical example in form of key. And that also brings us to the last question that if I really need to tell a CEO that before you invest into a CX transformation program, what is the checkpoint? What kind of advice would you give them that you need to have these checkpoints before you actually get it?
speaker-0: That. One is to have a clear documentation on the problem that you are solving. If not solved, what is the impact that that is going to have on the business? Right? These are the two things which are most fundamental. And the third thing is what changes you need to bring within the organization as far as people and tech are concerned to address that problem. These are the three things that have to be crystal clear with the CEO. as well as the executive committee because executive committee would have members of all functions. All functions in the CEO have to be, you know, in agreement on you know the same line as far as these three so problem statement, right? That is the most fundamental thing and what you need to do, what is the impact if not solved.
speaker-1: And I'm assuming that all these things when laid down should have a clear deadlines and the investment and the day times. Absolutely.
speaker-0: That is where I talked about cost benefit analysis. So if there are 10 things that I need to do, out of those three are time critical and if not managed today, and you know something dis something very disruptive has happened which we missed or you know the business missed, but we need to do it now. It requires whatever investment you have to do it now because it is then it becomes mission critical, right? The impact is most. The other two things could wait. ⁓ right, and the other five things, if cost-benefit analysis with investments and all of that doesn't make sense, you might park it and say that I might pick it up later, right? But it has to be a part of the transformation initiative. Because if it is not a part of the transformation initiative, then people start to look at it as a second transformation, right? That is when people disruptions start to become much more fundamental and much more tangible. So I think the entire transformation plan needs to be there. What is critical today needs to happen today. Whatever can wait, can wait. So that is, see, when you talk about Six Sigma also, you do a very thorough, you know, cost benefit analysis and say that okay, this is a particular change, whether I should do it today or not. Right? One of the fundal benefits or you know drivers of Six Sigma is client satisfaction, that it it helps increase client satisfaction. And it is the most transformative initiative that any business could do. It really needs a lot of attention, similarly CX. I would in fact put it as a part of ⁓ you know big business transformation that you do. I actually stop calling it CX transformation. I say that listen, the the moment you start calling it a business transformation, that is when you have won the biggest battle in your mind.
speaker-1: I agree. Thank you so much, Raja, for taking time out to discuss this. Because again, I CX transformation, or let's rename it as business transformation, take its own sweet time. But if we plan it properly, I think we can be well ahead in the competitive advantage against our competitors. I think that's exactly what my key takeaway is. And what I particularly appreciated today about this discussion overall is that when you challenge the few assumptions many organizations take for granted, The distinction between measuring customer experience and actually transforming it is one that every leadership team should reflect upon. And ⁓ the perspective that Raja just gave on CX transformation pitfalls, operational readiness and the limitation of the traditional NPS matrix offers a very valuable reminder that customer experience is not just about collecting feedback, which traditionally we already have been doing. It's about creating an organizational capability to act upon. And for our audience, I hope this conversation encourages you to look beyond scores and dashboards and ask a more important question. Are we truly improving the customer experiences or are we simply measuring it better? So if you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the Collaborative Canvas podcast on YouTube, Spotify, Apple, and Amazon, and wherever you consume your content. And as always, share this episode with someone who is passionate about customer experiences, operational excellence, or The so-called, the new definition is business transformation. Until next time, stay curious, stay collaborative and keep building What Next. Thank you,
speaker-0: Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me today, English. ⁓
speaker-1: Who is sitting on top of everything to see whether the transformation, because you mentioned that 20 % is the only equation when it comes to measurement.
speaker-0: Platforms are not going to transform things for you. Platforms are going to help you identify issues early. Where does the insight come in? The insight comes in the fact that my detractor is also a detractor for the competition or it is a promoter. Or my promoter is also a promoter for competition or a detractor for the competition.
speaker-1: Where do they lose the focus? If I really need to tell a CEO that before you invest into a CX Transformation program, what is the checkpoint? What kind of advice would you give them that you need to have these checkpoints before you actually get into it? Welcome to another episode of the Collaborative Canvas. Customer experience has become one of the most discussed topics in business today. Organizations are investing heavily in CX programs, customer journey mapping, NPS tracking, AI-powered engagement, and transformation initiative. Yet, many of these efforts fail to deliver meaningful business impact. And the reason is very simple. We always ask this question to ourselves, why is that? Is the problem in how we measure experiences or is it in how we transform organizations around it? To help us unpack these questions, I'm joined by Raja Buned, a customer experience and operational excellence consultant with over 24 years of experience in quantitative research and CX. Raja is also the former CEO of Ipsos India and has worked extensively at the intersection of customer insights, operational performances, and business transformation. One of the ideas that immediately caught my attention during my conversations with Raja was his view that CX measurement and CX transformations are two completely different ballgames. He also speaks extensively about what he calls CX transformation pitfalls. The blind spot organizations often overlook before they even begin their transformation journey. We will also explore his innovative concept, the strength of NPS metric and discuss why a strong net promoter score may not always mean a strong competitive position. If you're a business leader, CX professional, researcher, marketer, founder, or anyone responsible for improving customer outcomes, this conversation is packed with practical insights. So let's get this started. Welcome, sir.
speaker-0: Thank you so much, Ankesh. Thank you so much for having me today.
speaker-1: Sir, to start with, would probably say, the last time when we were talking about, we specifically mentioned about customer transformation and customer experience measurement. But to start with, and specifically for the people, like students who are right now probably be hearing this, how do we define CX transformation and CX measurement? Before that, even CX.
speaker-0: So I think just to put it very simply, and it is simply to understand how customers or your clients are experiencing what you're delivering to them. It could be in form of a product, it could be in form of a service, or it could be on a platform, right? Either delivered in person or via a platform, via tech platform, but essentially Simply put, it is how customers experience what you are delivering to them. As simple as that. And then we transition into two important parts. One is to understand how that is getting delivered and how customers are receiving this service, which is the measurement part. And then what the businesses need to do to ensure that what customers want are getting, right? So essentially, if you look at the entire equation of CX, one part is measurement. Which actually is only 15 to 20 percent of the equation. The remaining 80 to 85% essentially is the transformation bit. ⁓ And that is where I think a lot of focus needs to be given today within the CX equation by businesses. Because today there is massive amount of data that organizations have on customer ⁓ experience measurement. Some data is available directly through surveys that they conduct, through research that they conduct. Otherwise, there is a lot of information available on competition as well as you know competitive categories through secondary research. But essentially, where a lot of focus is required ⁓ as from a strategy standpoint is on the business transformation. And I I for a purpose do not only call it CX transformation, I call it business transformation because That is the shift that we need to see. ⁓ you know, ⁓ and start calling it business transformation and not only CX. We'll we'll touch upon the reasons why.
speaker-1: And that's something that I'm just about to come to that how come most of those companies actually misunderstood between those two terms?
speaker-0: Well, I think ⁓ if you if I wish to draw a parallel between, you know, business transformation, CX transformation, and one key element of business, which is Six Sigma. Right. Now Six Sigma is a complete mindset change. Right. Six Sigma has to come top down. The the CEO of the organization has to drive it. Similarly, when we talk about CX transformation or business transformation, it has to come top down. Number one, because whatever you say, There are silos that exist in an organization, right? Typically, when we are whenever we talk about CX, you you start to think about one particular function or one particular individual within the organization who is responsible for CX. But that particular function or or person cannot carry out the transformation that is required. Now the marketing person will think only about acquisition. Exactly. Right? The finance person, quite rightly so, right? Only think about cost savings, right, or revenue. At the same time, the tech guy will only think about platforms and what I can do to make things better. The CX guy will say, Okay, my NPS is growing, you know, or that is done. But essentially, when a customer or a client are experiencing a service, they're not only comparing to your competition, they are also comparing it to other categories. Right? One typical example, if I could quote, is the simplicity and the speed with which Today, e-complayers are managing the reverse logistics. It is very painful. Reverse logistics is the most painful kind of transaction to do. But for me as a consumer, it is so seamless. Right? Today I ordered something by mistake, instead of a shampoo, I ordered a conditioner. It took me just less than one minute to do it on the platform. If I were to go to a bank or for that matter, any service point.
speaker-1: That's right.
speaker-0: Right? The I'm making an effort to go there. I really don't want to break my head and and start investing more time in explaining things to people. Right. so I think it it had it has to be a concept which is consumed by the entire organization rather than one individual or one function which only takes care of CX. So I think that is the fundamental difference between measurement and transformation, I would say.
speaker-1: But considering that every individual as in every department measure their own capacity, their own KPIs, who's sitting on top of everything to see whether the transformation, because you mentioned that 20 % is the only question when it comes to measurement, who's actually keeping the top-eye view to ensure that transformation is happening, it is actually, they're seeing the change, they're actually working towards.
speaker-0: Okay, so t typically if you look at how an organization is structured, right? I mean, you have the head of marketing, the CMO, you have the CFO, right? You might have the head of consumer insight sitting over there, finally the CEO, right? Now, whenever you look at governance initiatives or you look at ISO initiatives, right, or for that matter, Six Sigma, it has to come top down. So the executive committee has to believe in the tr kind of transformation you need to do, right? Now, one fundamental difference between measurement and transformation is measurement is it you can carry out it at a periodic level, right? Either you capture that data at a quarterly level, or for that matter, at any point of consumption, right? Or interaction, you you capture that data within transactional research as well. But transformation has to be continuous. The the person or the individual or the function involved in the entire value chain has to understand. You know what this particular transformation is about, and most importantly, what that individual brings to the table as far as the transformation is concerned. Right. The moment you talk about ⁓ you know, what that particular person or function contributes to the overall ⁓ you know ambition of the transformation, that is when you start building ownership, right? So the concept of ownership needs to be invibed ⁓ within the organization. Which which has to come top down as a part of transformation.
speaker-1: So which means that every single department has to work on that equation eventually. then the delivered KPIs would determine how the transformation would look like at the end.
speaker-0: Absolutely. Absolutely. And it needs investment, it needs time because it is not easy. See, humans are the most averse to change. Right? If you tell a particular person that I mean, he would say, No, but this is how it is being done. This is how I will do it. Right? Platforms are there. Platforms are helping you look at things or get the information quickly. But platforms are not going to transform things for you. Platforms are going to help you identify
speaker-1: You
speaker-0: ⁓ issues early.
speaker-1: So as much as I understood that measurement basically is something which is more theoretical and you can actually evaluate by looking at the equation, you are looking at the numbers which are coming. Transformation is more practical as to how you wanted to implement it because even with the platforms you will still get the data.
speaker-0: Absolutely. It has to be on the Quran. It has to be tangibly seen.
speaker-1: So, is there a timeline for the transformation to happen? Do organizations keep that timeline or it is just like another periodic work path?
speaker-0: Two parts to it. One is ⁓ something which is really strategic in nature, right? Which is something has to be maintained over a period of time, which means that it needs to become a way of working for the organization. Now, whenever you touch upon something which you know gets into ways of working, which which that is where a lot of pushback happens, right? A lot of people say, no, no, this is going to change our lives. But essentially transformation is about that. Transformation is about automizing, digitizing processes, manual processes, which don't nobody need today. Right? I'll give you a classic example of something recently that I had to do. ⁓ there were two processes that this particular organization was following: one an online process, one a manual process. Right? Online, you're very easy to do. The moment I went to the office.
speaker-1: go very seamless.
speaker-0: I was asked to give documents which I never had, right? Now, this is obviously with you know one of the state governments, they wanted my Russian card. I said, I don't have a Russian card. Why would I need a Russian card? Right? But for in the manual process, a Russian card is mandatory, but in an online process, there is no Russian card, right? So what has happened here is whatever transformation happened as far as digitizing the entire process is concerned. The manual process got overlooked. Right. So this is a level of transformation that now this is a typical case where the organization is still operating in silos. Right. Because the tech department might have discussed why do you need this? Why is this required? But it did not flow into the manual process. Right? So
speaker-1: Technically, transformation doesn't have a set deadlines. It is all about how people are.
speaker-0: Continuous process. See, like I why I keep talking about Six Sigma because I think Six Sigma is the best way to explain to people how CX transformation is important and how strategic it is. Now, Six Sigma cannot be broken down, right? It cannot happen for six months and then you stop and then you you know restart it. Six sigma is a way of working. Six sigma is how industry or the the organization needs to operate, right? Similarly, CX transformation is also continuous. Why? Number one, the clients, your clients or customers keep experiencing things in their own kind of ecosystem, right? It is not necessary that they are only experiencing your competition. For example, if I today have exposure to a fintech entity, it completely changes my expectation from a bank. It completely changes my service delivery expectation from an insurance provider. So I think the way FinTech if is you know changing things around us and making things difficult for organizations that are still, you know, looking at traditional ways of customer service delay. I'm not saying that the traditional ways need to be replaced, right? They need to be there because they have a very important more improved So the dissonance between the two has to get minimized.
speaker-1: So what are basic transformation pitfalls in that case?
speaker-0: See one thing is that typically an organization starts to think that CX transformation is only only is the keyword here, is only about customer or client initiatives. It isn't. It is big time about business transformation. That is the first pitfall, right? The second pitfall, which is strongly connected to this one, is that if there is no a weak Executive alignment at the top, right? Then the cross-functional alignment goes for a toss. It is if it is weak, it is weak, then the cross-functional alignment goes for a toss. What does that mean? It means that it will continue to become a customer-related initiative and owned by the function that is responsible for CX, which is what we started the discussion with, right?
speaker-1: No weak. It is weak.
speaker-0: So, but it is not at all that because if the customer delivery has to improve, a lot of processes need to change. Right? And the processes cut across functions, they cut across marketing, they cut across sales, they cut across governance, they cut across finance, they cut across tech teams, right? It cut the processes cut across all entities. Right? So transformation, when you say that CX transformation only about customer initiatives.
speaker-1: Exactly.
speaker-0: Then the message that you're giving, ⁓ CX kayak team manage kariga, yeah, worker marketing under set karma, insights me, they will manage it. I am from governance, how why should I bother about it? But the but the the the essence here is that if you want to transform things, there will be certain governance or regulatory requirements that you will have to evaluate. Right? If you need to be more quick. You need to simplify things, right? People are going to say that, okay, do we need this? Because this is taking time. This particular approval process is taking time. Right? What can we do to actually remove it? So the these two become very, very critical. That you know, number one, it you shouldn't look at it as a only customer initiative. It has to be a business transformation initiative, which is where the cross-functional pitfalls that we talked about will will start to disappear. The other thing is about people. Right? Now you might adopt a lot of tech, but that tech it will not decide your strategy. Right? The strategy should decide what tech you need. In fact, what AI also you need, right? What dimension of AI you need to kind of build into it. So people, ⁓ you know, which is where you need to talk about. I always talk about a pull strategy rather than a push strategy with people. Right. Push strategy is something which you're forcing people to do. But pull is something that you want people to understand that they want to own it. They themselves want to do it. Right. So which is where again a business transformation initiative, if you look at it from that perspective, only then it will happen. Otherwise ops will say, Why should I change? I'm doing good. My NPS is good. Alright, but little do they know, you talked about strength of NPS, little do they know that my competition also has the same NPS. So I have no competitive advantage there, right? So you need to work towards reducing effort cost of your clients, of your customers. Otherwise, you will keep loop be in a loop of measurement. You'll keep tracking KPIs. Your NPS increases by a couple of points, you feel happy. Or your detractor suddenly increase, you say, ⁓ my goodness, what what is happening? And if your passives are remaining as passives and not graduating to promoters, then you're not gaining anything.
speaker-1: Yeah, true. I really wanted to ask this question, but after speaking with you for the last 10-15 minutes, I realized this question is actually meaningless. So the question was that, why did you actually switch from being in research for 24 years to CX measurement and CX transformation? And I think so far what we learned from Raja is all about the transformation. And it's not that easy why transformation takes a lot of time. So rather than skipping, I'll skip this question because now I understood why actually you transformed. Probably you switch into more a consultative mode to help organizations understand this vital difference. Talking about the NPS, the strength of NPS you mentioned, people generally look at scores to, again, going back to the same citation, 20 % is the measurement. Now, people, when they look at the scores, they exactly know key. what is on and where they really need to head their business on. And when we are talking about business transformation, where do they lose the focus? Because I think action doesn't happen as per the... and probably I'll make it a little controversial because I've seen research happens, they get the outcomes, but the transformation never happens.
speaker-0: So I think, you know, that that typically happens and I don't blame ⁓ the teams that actually own the Metrices. But I think what really happens is they get too involved and focus on the score, right? And they keep chasing the KPI. You know, in every meeting they say, okay, mira, you know, NPS score, kya hai, whether in which direction it is heading, right? So I'll tell you an interesting kind of ⁓ you know story here. I was with one of our ⁓ you know BFSI clients. And in that meeting we started to talk about NPS because NPS measurement was a key metric. And I said that, well, I think NPS is one measure, but we also need a lot of other measures that can marry or that can connect to your business metric. Right. And ⁓ and since we were talking about BFSI, ⁓ there is share of business and share of wallet, is you know, it cuts across correct ⁓ brands and and entities. So there obviously we we had The client NPS as well as the ⁓ competition NPS. And one thing when I deep dive into that, I said I asked the question to myself, well, if my NPS is so and so, how does it matter? So what? What do I do with it? Right? The the next thing was that to look at how my competition is doing, right? Or if my customer is giving the promoter for me, is that customer also a promoter for my competition?
speaker-1: Exactly.
speaker-0: Now, where does the insight come in? The insight comes in the fact that my detractor is also a detractor for the competition or it is a promoter, or my promoter is also a promoter for competition or a detractor for the competition, right? Or a passive. If my promoter is a passive for competition, competition can easily work on them and get them to be a promoter. Right? Which means that my business is at risk. Right? So I think. When people look at scores as only KPIs and aim to just meet those KPIs over a period of time, unless or until there is a mega shift that has happened, or some big kind of operational issue has happened within the organization because of which a big pain point it gave you know rise to a big pain point, and NPS falls down. That is when organizations get into diagnostics and start to understand. I would say a mega shift has happened in thinking if our organization is concerned, and especially in BFSI because of fintech. FinTech is has really disrupted, I would say, the entire business model of traditional BFSI ⁓ you know, businesses. And it is giving them, you know, a lot of ideas as well. I would not say that fintech is only a threat, it is also giving them a lot of ideas, right? Now
speaker-1: It has actually made the fintech industry actually eased the entire process for the consumer experience overall.
speaker-0: Absolutely. And they still operate within the same governance environment. They still have to abide by that. Again, we come back to down to people, right? Now, FinTech, since these are new organizations, they are completely digitally and tech driven as compared to traditionally operating business models, which is where a business model shift is also required. Business it is very easy to say that I need to shift my business model. But the problem is that whether people Are are ready to do that. At times I I was ⁓ I was speaking with somebody ⁓ you know very recently, a month back, and and ⁓ this gentleman, a very senior marketing professional, said that ⁓ I think a lot of the AI initiatives ⁓ get derailed by people themselves, right? Because they look at AI as a threat, right? And and and at times you you hit a roadblock and say that okay, my people are not ready to do this. But unfortunately your customers and clients are moving ahead. They are migrating from traditional to fintech. FinTech is and I admire FinTech for that matter, as far as you know customer delivery is concerned. And it is very quick. It is very quick.
speaker-1: When it comes to actually understanding how people are being part of this transformation, think transformation only works then. Because when you were actually talking about FinTech, the thought which was coming to my mind was about how quickly the usage of UPI has taken over the entire nation. Every person, even those hawker centers, with Chhota Thelewala, everybody is taking UPI.
speaker-0: Absolutely.
speaker-1: So, ⁓ it's no more that you to the bank, then you'll draw the cash, then you'll give it to him. think, ATM usage has already drastically gone down. So, transformation took new time, but I think in a much better way. again, the point is, what exactly are we missing when it comes to seeing the action against the scores. Okay.
speaker-0: I think a beautiful example of UPI. One one key reason why I think UPI has really succeeded well, it is because it has reduces you reduce the effort the consumer has to make. Right? Managing cash is a huge effort. Either you go to the bank to withdraw cash or you go to the ATM, but you still need to make an effort to go. Right? Today you don't need to do anything. It is and we started a discussion by talking about, you know, consumer effort score, right? If you focus On the effort that your client or a customer has to make to consume or ⁓ you know ⁓ consume the the the delivery of the product, right? That is where you can make huge shifts in transformation. The the single point of transformation is to reduce the effort of your customer. Reduce and that is what the customer looks at. Now with UPI, I don't need anybody, if I don't have cash, somebody is coming, I have to rush to the ATM, you know, spend that fuel or walk or make that effort, do that, you know, come and then make the payment. But today with UPI, there's no effort at all. Absolutely no effort. So the one one single reason I would say why it has really helped, you know, ⁓ or caught up and and you know. got adopted by people because it does reduce effort. And that is what people want to look at today.
speaker-1: But that's the only, let's talk about fintech. I mean, that's only the example that I can say it out. But it was easy. People were able to accommodate too because it was making their life easier. But there's so many companies, you know, other than fintech industry, there are other companies who are also getting through those transformation phase and that gap of NPS has always been seen there. Our score is like, fintabulous, you know, but those... I mean, I wanted to pull you into the same thought which we spoke when we were on the phone, strength of NPS, how does it work for them in that?
speaker-0: See what Centre of NPS gives you a very clear picture of how your NPS stands as compared to competition. It gives you a clear competitive context, right? So if your NPS is 80, right? And your competition NPS is also 80, what it tells you? It tells you that okay, my competition has the same level of NPS. So is there a threat? Well, there is a threat. But the extent of threat.
speaker-1: always.
speaker-0: Is when you figure out when you break down the NPS into its three segments of detractors, passives, and providers, and say that my NPS is 80, but actually the quality of my NPS is not that great. Why? Because a lot of my promoters, a significant chunk of my promoters, are also my competition promoters. Right? If I do something wrong, they are immediately going to
speaker-1: Correct.
speaker-0: Right. At the same at the same time, I have a set of detractors, and 30% of detractors are actually passives of my competition. Right. Or 20% of my detractors are are promoters, which means that 50% of my detractor base is at huge risk. They can switch to being promoters of my competition. That is a huge business risk. What strength of NPS tells you?
speaker-1: But They can switch to promoter.
speaker-0: Is this particular information and what you need to do to ensure that you start moving or detractors to being passives and then promoters? Right? What key actions you need? For example, it will tell you that this particular segment of customers are more detractors as compared to other segments. For example, within a banking context, ⁓ asset and lending, right? Now for a bank. ⁓ a loan which I take is my liability, but it is an asset for the bank because the bank is making money on whatever it is lending. It is. Right. So for an asset for a particular line of assets, say home loan, right? Or long term loans or education loan, right? If they figure out that there is a huge disparity in NPS in home loan versus education loan, which means that there is something fundamentally wrong in a particular process of either home loan or education loan. At the same time, it will tell them that, okay, for my competition actually, home loan is doing wonderfully well. And my detractors are at huge risk not only on home loan but also education loan. Right. Because when you diagnose the data, you don't only get share of wallet by brands, you also get share of wallet by products. So I might have a home loan. I have a son who is getting into engineering now. I might need an education loan. Which bank will I go to?
speaker-1: Correct.
speaker-0: Will I go to my main bank or will I go to a bank where I o already have, you know, lending products from my point of view, right? Loan products.
speaker-1: Another bank would also be where you are comparing product to product which is easier for your ⁓ wallet share.
speaker-0: Correct. So if my bank hasn't delivered to me well on a particular kind of product, I would switch. Even though a lot of investment sit over there because the investment is sticky, right? But lending is not sticky. I might go rent interest rate at chamila me maha chalaga. Right? But I got a service up, door step service milta, you might still want to shell out a bit more, you might be willing to do that. Right?
speaker-1: Exactly. Correct.
speaker-0: But I think what strength of NPS tells you the quality of your NPS score and how does it stand versus competition. That is one that you are operating within the competitive framework. The other thing that you could do, which I always advise clients, is to look at categories or industries which are evolving and models that you can take inspiration from. Right? Now, one if I am speaking to a banking client, I would obviously say that. You know, look at and also include in your measurement a fintech brand. Right. And you will find that you have a wonderful share of wallet over there. Or also include an e-comm business, right? When you whenever you're measuring NPS, because it will tell you what consumers look ⁓ at. Today, if you look at, for that matter, I I it is okay if I name brands, right? ⁓ or companies. So if you look at Amazon.
speaker-1: I mean, totally up to you. ⁓
speaker-0: I admire Amazon a lot because the way they have been able to reduce operational friction, which is a key element of transformation, is amazing. Right? I talked about reverse logistics. Yeah. The way they have been able to eliminate operational friction, I don't see any other business doing that across categories. It is seamless. It is simple. Today people want simplicity, they want speed, and they want the least amount of effort. See. These are not their tasks that they really want to spend time on. They don't want to do enough work to do. So these three elements: one is absolutely simple, speed, and effortless. These are the three, I would say, fundamentals of any transformation initiative that one would want to do. And when you diagnose NPS from these three lenses and ask the right questions to people: why are you my detractor and why are you my competitions promoter? Then you get these kind of insights. And that is where I think measurement stops and transformation starts because that is where you also need to go to the operations guy and say that listen, my or your customers are saying that they want this. Right? This is where you know things are not working well. And that is why they could actually go. Your client or your customer is going. Right, when you use such words, your that is which you know that is something that builds ownership. So I think the the effort to reduce and operational friction is not only with operations, it could be with governance, because operations is a big word, right? ⁓ under it, it could be finance, it could be processes of approvals. They create fri friction. The same team would say, Okay, I want to digitize it, leave it, remove it. Right? So In a manual process or in a traditional framework, why can't we do that? So, one thing that you know when when we started to look at the internet or you know, going back a few decades, right, what we saw? We saw that okay, people said, mirror relevance khatamojai. I will start to lose ownership. Right? When you a small kid, right, you give him a toy. Okay, you ask for the toy, the kid will say, No, no, I don't want to give it. That is ownership. Right? The moment you give him a video game. That toy might go. Right? So, and then you take away the video game. Again, the sense of ownership builds. Right? What you're doing is you're you're telling that particular individual that the toy is still yours, but this video game is even yours, more yours, right? Correct. So so that is how you build ownership. So I think you know when when you look at strength of NPS and you do a workshop with internal stakeholders, see internal stakeholders. Char point, but again, sub kushang. Sub bullying, ⁓ wow, you know, all of us have done well. But the moment you tell them that listen, your detractor base of 30% is at huge risk because then your NPS is going to go away. Right? That is what strength of NPS brings to the table. It clearly tells you what is the quality of your NPS and what what is at threat on both sides of the scale, detractors as well as promoters.
speaker-1: A little more explanation on that. So considering a company has a higher net promoter score, are they still failing on their competitive advantage?
speaker-0: There could be. There could be. See, NPS is not a zero-sum game, right? So so if if bank A has an NPS of 83, not necessarily means that bank B or Bank 2 might not have a NPS of 83. Both the banks could have a similar NPS, right? The like I said, once I break down the 83 into detractors, into passives, right, and into promoters.
speaker-1: you have to segregate it further.
speaker-0: it you will have to segregate it further and then within detractors you'll have to do a competition analysis. Within promoters you will have to do a competition analysis to see that okay. So let's say I have done a survey with thousand people.
speaker-1: But what you're comparing is two banks with a similar score. I'm saying what if one bank actually has a higher score?
speaker-0: You still could be at risk. You still could be at risk. You still could be at risk. Why? Because if you are still doing better, that bank has a higher detractor base, right? But your customers are also detractors or passives. If they do something, then your detractor will start moving into passive. Which means that your NPS score is going to get impacted. Right? The moment they start to do
speaker-1: That's exactly what I'm trying to understand. Correct.
speaker-0: You know, something very innovative or very transformative, your customer base is going to get affected. See, these are you know industries where you see ⁓ you know multiple brands or multiple services from different you know companies or entities getting consumed. On the other hand, if you look at industrial, it is a zero-sum game, right? Zero-sum game from a wallet perspective. Right? For example, it is steel, right? So you might be taking cold roll or hot. From one particular steel plant, right? It is you are actually doing that because you need that, and the capacity is not there. So, the moment the competition increases their capacity, you start to lose business. Which is where you will figure out that actually, for in the industrial context, NPS is a wonderful metric because it clearly tells you that you know, and in in in an industrial context. The the client is not only talking to the the marketing team, they're also speaking to finance, they're also speaking to ⁓ production, they're also speaking to quality. So they have visibility across functions.
speaker-1: So, I think this is where exactly the CX does not become a research problem anymore, it gets into the operation excellence problem.
speaker-0: Absolutely. Absolutely. That is why I said that the entire CX equation, measurement is 20%. The remaining is in word. Right? That inward needs that 20%. Right? That 20% is a very critical part of the equation because that 20% tells you how you're delivering today and what your customers want. That 20% will also tell you that your the the category with Which you want to learn or where you want to aspire as far as service delivery is concerned, how they are doing and what they are doing. That measurement brings. Right? But you keep tracking NPS without doing any transformation. And changes and transformation are very big things. Change is very tactical, very periodic. Okay, I will what I will do in the peak season, ⁓ admissions ka time, education loans are going to be at peak. What I'm going to do is I'm going to remove these approval processes for a month or two. Then I'm going to bring them back. This is not transformation. This is a tactical change. Right? Because people will say, okay, okay, the governance person will say, okay, I need to manage something here. I will do I'll manage it. But from a transformation perspective, it has to be continuous. You need one parti permanent fix over there. That is where ⁓ you know change and transformation is very different.
speaker-1: I think that's exactly where we see the intersection of the research problem stops and the operational excellence starts.
speaker-0: Absolutely. And operational excellence, like I said, is not only ops, it is finance, it is governance, it is marketing. Everybody's
speaker-1: Yes, of course. It's a culmination of almost everything. Okay, you tell me something. mean now considering like you know whatever we spoke about till date has been already operational you know when it comes to CX measurement or CX transformation until let's say 2023. The reason why I'm taking this year is because after that I started hearing about chat GPTs and you know AI evolution into the market research. So I wanted to emphasize a little bit on AI. How's AI helping in this transformation process in that case?
speaker-0: Okay. See, I would say that AI is a wonderful enabler, right? ⁓ and I tell you why. Because pre-transformation, businesses and functions within businesses have been operating in silos. Which means a lot of data gets housed in marketing, lot of data gets housed in governance, lot of data gets housed in sales. But rarely those data points come together. We talk about ERPs and all of that. What AI brings to the table is to get all that data together and give you one particular insight. Right? So, which means that AI becomes a wonderful tool to diagnose data like we never could do earlier. Right? So it has diminished lines across functions, which means the cross-functional collaboration that we talked about, AI bic has become the biggest enabler there, right? However, it also gets misused, right? What it does, it then motivates people to go onto one particular platform and say that, okay, so this is my process. What can I change? Or what can I do? Right? But it, or you will say that, okay, can you make this process more efficient? AI will tell you what your process is today, but it will not bring consumer insights and say what the consumer wants tomorrow, right? So, what redesigning or changes you need in the process of workflow is something that you have to do and then get onto AI and say that, you know, how do I take it to people or how do I make it more efficient? Whatever prompt you will get, you will get that. Okay. It it is only going to amplify the weakness that you have in a particular process or workflow. It is not going to correct for it. ⁓ Exactly. It is not going to correct for it. So I think the
speaker-1: whatever prompt you will give.
speaker-0: What AI also brings to the table is getting housing everything together, right? And that also means that one particular function, you know, like I said, the kid example of the toy, right? So here, that particular human owns the data. The moment you start giving access to data, you start losing ownership. ⁓ Right? And and which is where I think the concept again of telling people that they are contributing to what? needs to be, you know, clearly told to people so that then they they you know, sh start sharing
speaker-1: Technically, transformation is not that easy the way we look at it. Even if the NGPS score is high, there are so many things that we really need to get into the details of it to find out where do we stand overall in the show.
speaker-0: So so yeah, like I said, not only competition but the category which you which you look up to.
speaker-1: Exactly. mean considering that if we see overall competition, then competition actually drives down to the bottom of the product line that you actually have. It is not that your first 4 products are and rest are not doing so you don't even have to worry about. You probably have to look into the product line across. And this is where I think the strength of NPS works because now you can drill down to the minutest of the research problem that can help you better the operational excellence over a period of time. Correct.
speaker-0: Absolutely. Absolutely.
speaker-1: But I am still thinking that operational excellence doesn't come at just one go even with inception of AI. AI can help you react faster. If my consumer experience is not going good, where I can plug the dots to ensure that doing X or Y or Z thing, this would help me improve in X period of time or does it? Can we define that we this time?
speaker-0: Well, I think ⁓ the timeline is really critical. ⁓ why? Because if there is no timeline then you never know when then when this is going to finish. So I don't think it is an AI thing. It is again the the the
speaker-1: Exhibitive I'm not talking about AI Raja, I'm talking about AI has given you a certain solution. Of course, it's not a clear cut solution. You you ended a research problem by solving ⁓ or using AI. You your NPS score. Now to get into an actual operational excellence problem, you really need to define at what certain point of time I need to be operationally excellent. Do we define that date? Do we define that timeline?
speaker-0: Absolutely, we should. We need to do that. Because ⁓ every function or every initiative needs a very hard timeline, right? Now, what that timeline is, or what it depends on how critical the problem is, right? The problem statement here becomes the fundamental, right? Now, if the problem statement is such a huge statement that you enter into business risk, it could be because of some disruption that has happened in tech, right? Which could You know, change things overnight. ⁓ you know, ⁓ mobile platform, if I could talk about it, a classic example of how a particular organization couldn't see what the other is getting to the table, right? I'm talking about Android. Android was a big disruptor, right? It changed how mobile consumption happened on how with what ease, you know, we could do it. ⁓ but if that is the kind of disruption that somebody gets in a service delivery, right? Again, I talked about simplicity, I talked about speed, and I talked about effort. If there is something that comes under these three dimensions which changes the game, then your timeline is today, right? Timeline is not tomorrow or day after. So it depends on ⁓ you know what problem you're solving, right? If the problem needs massive investment in tech and AI, then obviously it is going to take that time. But then you need to kind of break it down into tactical and strategical. And say that out of these, you know, ten things that I have to do, these are the three things that I can do now. These are the three things I can do tomorrow, and these are the you know other three things or seven four things which I can do later or I might not do because my cost benefit analysis doesn't allow me to do.
speaker-1: So ⁓ let's take this example as again. Let's make it more classical example in form of key. And that also brings us to the last question that if I really need to tell a CEO that before you invest into a CX transformation program, what is the checkpoint? What kind of advice would you give them that you need to have these checkpoints before you actually get it?
speaker-0: That. One is to have a clear documentation on the problem that you are solving. If not solved, what is the impact that that is going to have on the business? Right? These are the two things which are most fundamental. And the third thing is what changes you need to bring within the organization as far as people and tech are concerned to address that problem. These are the three things that have to be crystal clear with the CEO. as well as the executive committee because executive committee would have members of all functions. All functions in the CEO have to be, you know, in agreement on you know the same line as far as these three so problem statement, right? That is the most fundamental thing and what you need to do, what is the impact if not solved.
speaker-1: And I'm assuming that all these things when laid down should have a clear deadlines and the investment and the day times. Absolutely.
speaker-0: That is where I talked about cost benefit analysis. So if there are 10 things that I need to do, out of those three are time critical and if not managed today, and you know something dis something very disruptive has happened which we missed or you know the business missed, but we need to do it now. It requires whatever investment you have to do it now because it is then it becomes mission critical, right? The impact is most. The other two things could wait. ⁓ right, and the other five things, if cost-benefit analysis with investments and all of that doesn't make sense, you might park it and say that I might pick it up later, right? But it has to be a part of the transformation initiative. Because if it is not a part of the transformation initiative, then people start to look at it as a second transformation, right? That is when people disruptions start to become much more fundamental and much more tangible. So I think the entire transformation plan needs to be there. What is critical today needs to happen today. Whatever can wait, can wait. So that is, see, when you talk about Six Sigma also, you do a very thorough, you know, cost benefit analysis and say that okay, this is a particular change, whether I should do it today or not. Right? One of the fundal benefits or you know drivers of Six Sigma is client satisfaction, that it it helps increase client satisfaction. And it is the most transformative initiative that any business could do. It really needs a lot of attention, similarly CX. I would in fact put it as a part of ⁓ you know big business transformation that you do. I actually stop calling it CX transformation. I say that listen, the the moment you start calling it a business transformation, that is when you have won the biggest battle in your mind.
speaker-1: I agree. Thank you so much, Raja, for taking time out to discuss this. Because again, I CX transformation, or let's rename it as business transformation, take its own sweet time. But if we plan it properly, I think we can be well ahead in the competitive advantage against our competitors. I think that's exactly what my key takeaway is. And what I particularly appreciated today about this discussion overall is that when you challenge the few assumptions many organizations take for granted, The distinction between measuring customer experience and actually transforming it is one that every leadership team should reflect upon. And ⁓ the perspective that Raja just gave on CX transformation pitfalls, operational readiness and the limitation of the traditional NPS matrix offers a very valuable reminder that customer experience is not just about collecting feedback, which traditionally we already have been doing. It's about creating an organizational capability to act upon. And for our audience, I hope this conversation encourages you to look beyond scores and dashboards and ask a more important question. Are we truly improving the customer experiences or are we simply measuring it better? So if you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the Collaborative Canvas podcast on YouTube, Spotify, Apple, and Amazon, and wherever you consume your content. And as always, share this episode with someone who is passionate about customer experiences, operational excellence, or The so-called, the new definition is business transformation. Until next time, stay curious, stay collaborative and keep building What Next. Thank you,
speaker-0: Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me today, English. ⁓
