The Hidden Cost of Undefined Roles: Why “Everyone Wears Many Hats” Hurts Your Business

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Thankfully, we have an entire team supporting us because if we didn't, well, this podcast wouldn't happen.
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Thankfully.
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Also, we're both kind of psychotic about defining roles.
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I say intentional, not psychotic.
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Potato.
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Potato.
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That is not the same thing.
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Correct.
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Correct.
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We want to make sure that no one is saying, hey, that's not my job.
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But in the same sense, we do not want your HR job descriptions to look like a sixteen page manual on how to make sure that no one will ever come work for you again.
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There's a fine line in there, and that is what we're going to talk about this week.
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She's the CEO.
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He's the marketing and operations guy.
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If it's broken, you need the business fix.
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For this week's banter, I have something here.
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What do you have?
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I. what I want to address here.
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And for those of you that just listen to the show, I encourage you, like you've probably seen some of the thumbnails, you've probably seen some of the stuff.
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I'm usually tie vest, I saw this shirt and this tie and I'm like, oh my gosh, those are reasonably decent facsimiles to business fix colors.
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You logoed yourself.
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Oh my gosh, you did.
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I am, I am a walking logo.
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I'm never wearing those colors together.
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Just know that no, I that's, that's no, I, I seem to be the one that's like the, the wild color one between the two of us.
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Yes.
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You like to stay.
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I know what my colors are and well, and I feel like it.
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I feel like it suits our personalities a little bit better because if there's anyone that's a little bit louder, I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's probably me.
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Mhm.
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Yes, it's a lucky guess.
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Just a guess.
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Yeah.
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If there if there.
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If there is someone loud and obnoxious in public, it.
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It's probably going to be me.
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It's probably not going to be, you know, no hiding.
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No. And yeah, so that's, that's the the colors of the shirt.
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So yeah, I am, I am, I'm logoed.
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Yes.
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Good job.
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Thank you, thank you, thank you.
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That's uh, yeah, I didn't even need an adult to do this is, uh, did this on my own.
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The algorithm found you oh, one hundred percent, one hundred percent.
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Like this guy's occasionally got a lot of green stuff on his screen, so let's.
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And it's not money.
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It's just a logo.
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So we're gonna, we're gonna send him this shirt and, uh, and make sure that, uh, yeah, that he buys it.
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Um, you you actually, you almost matched the table.
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I do, this is my color browns of color.
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I know it is.
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It is a color.
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Yeah, yeah, it's a good one.
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It works.
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Brown, blue, red.
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This is.
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Yeah, yeah.
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What happens when someone looks at you and goes, you look washed out on camera.
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Let me tell you what colors to wear.
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I don't look as washed out anymore, so, you know, hey, I listen.
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Wow.
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Wow.
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Be coachable.
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This is what happens when you get Facebook comments about your clothes.
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So, you know, it wasn't Steve that said that.
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Oh, God.
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No. He would never know.
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He would never.
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And if I look adorable all the time, if he did, we'd probably never have coaching.
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No, we just have coaching around it.
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We give each other feedback.
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We give each other feedback just at a high volume level, at a high intensity level.
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That may involve kitchen knives.
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No. Not necessarily.
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I mean, we just we preface it.
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I mean, Steve sometimes will give feedback to people with, are you sure I'm going to hurt your feelings?
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So that's I love that.
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Yeah, it's a preface.
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I usually skip that part, unfortunately.
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Oh no. He'll preface it.
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Are you sure you want feedback?
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I'm probably going to hurt your feelings.
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Like, yes.
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So there are times where I have to think, like give feedback like.
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Steve.
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Interesting.
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Mhm.
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Interesting.
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I typically skip all those steps.
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And I'm just like, oh, that sucked.
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That being said, hopefully your job descriptions, your defined like the definitions of the roles in your company.
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Yeah, hopefully those don't suck.
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I hope not, but for most people they do.
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I say let's be honest, like in our company, I like in mine and yours in the business fix.
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We've got stuff pretty well.
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We have to.
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We model what we mandate.
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Right, right.
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We know.
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We know a lot of what's going on with this, but it's I've seen in so many cases where people are like, oh, they get stuff done just in time and they're scrappy.
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Yeah.
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I'm like, no, they, they hate you.
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Maybe the other piece is when everyone owns the task, nobody owns it.
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That's correct.
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You cannot blame everyone for a problem.
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Mhm.
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Um, it it may feel like freedom early on.
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As you grow, as you build things, that ambiguity like just weighs on your company.
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Like, I mean, welcome to swimming with a boat anchor attached to your ankle.
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Yeah.
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It's terrible.
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Founders and I know this to founders have a tendency to not want to pin the job responsibilities because founders have done everything they've, they've been the agile ones.
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So they want those people that are going to do the same things, but they don't know.
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They think they do.
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Yes.
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They do not.
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Um, when a founder starts bragging that my team wears whatever hat is needed today, um, I can see the look on your face like, and I know it's the same look that you give most founders of, oh, I feel bad for these people.
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Um, you, you have this look on your face like, yuck.
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Um, it's it's the same look that I would assume comes from either broccoli or Brussels sprouts.
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Um, from an I like them both.
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So. Okay, well, maybe maybe something else then.
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Um, from an organizational like architecture standpoint, why, like, why is that ambiguity like a silent killer?
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Yeah.
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For not only the roles, the company culture, psychological safety and the big one.
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Good growth.
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Mhm.
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So small businesses love the phrase, everyone wears a lot of hats.
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Oh, God, I do.
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So many of them do.
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I've always hated it, but so many of them we we had marketing at one point in time about because like, we take the HR hat away from you.
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So like, I get it.
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I mean, in a growing business, people need to be flexible.
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Sure, there are days where everyone jumps in, everybody solves the problem, everybody's answering the phones, all the things client fixes, someone fixes the copier.
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You all become emotionally bonded over a spreadsheet nobody wanted to make.
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I mean, like, that's what happens when you're in a small start up business.
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All right.
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That is small business.
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But there's a I wanted to make this spreadsheet.
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I know you did.
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It's mine.
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But there's I mean, there's a big difference too between flexibility and role chaos.
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So flexibility works when people understand three things purpose parameters and performance.
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So we got three P's today when we're talking about role clarity, no C's, no C's purpose parameters and performance, I like them.
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Yeah.
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So purpose means why does this role exist.
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So it's not wear many hats.
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It's not whatever the owner remembered at four forty seven p m while walking to the car.
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It's not those things.
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Purpose gives the role a reason to exist and tells the employee what the business actually needs from them.
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It's why we create a job description.
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If you're going to lead with clarity, consistency, and care, there's the C's.
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You've got to define purpose.
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So we first define the role.
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So purpose.
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All right.
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Next parameters.
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Parameters mean where does this role start stop decide and hand off.
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And so without parameters, people do one of three things.
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They overstep, they freeze, or they ask permission for everything.
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Yeah.
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We've heard that so many times.
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Exactly.
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Can I do this?
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Yes.
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That's your job.
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That's your job.
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Can you.
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Is it okay?
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Yes, yes, it's perfectly fine.
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And leaders get frustrated when they do that.
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And they're like, why won't they take ownership?
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Well, because you didn't give them parameters.
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It's because no one told them what they were allowed to own.
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Nobody gave them the parameters.
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So because they don't know what they own, they are going to ask you everything or they're going to freeze or what probably makes everybody more frustrated than permission and freezing is they just do the job and then you're mad because you're like, they did this.
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It's like, well, you didn't tell them not to.
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You gave them this title that would make them think that that's something they're supposed to do.
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So, I mean, you can't tell somebody you are chief engineer and then get mad at them when they reengineer something.
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You can't do that.
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so darned if you do.
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Damned if you don't.
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Yes.
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As the employee.
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Yes.
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So we've got purpose.
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We've got parameters.
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And then the last one is performance.
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Okay.
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And performance means what does success actually look like?
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And I feel like we have said this at least eight times in different podcasts.
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So we're getting to the point where I think the audience is gonna listen to me, which is and we say, what does success look like?
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It is not be proactive.
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It is not take initiative.
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All right.
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Those are phrases leaders use when they're frustrated, but they haven't defined the actual behavior.
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You need to define what it means to be successful in the role and successful in the role in the organization, and tell people more than once and don't do it when you're leaving the like, okay, first day of training, this is what you need to be successful.
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Two sentences I'm never going to tell you again, and I'm just gonna be mad when you don't do it as I'm walking out the door.
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Exactly.
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So when purpose parameters and performance are missing, your best people pay the hero tax, right?
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They start catching every unassigned task because they care.
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They don't want the client to suffer.
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They don't want the owner to be stressed.
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They don't want the team to look bad.
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So they pick it up and then they pick up the next thing and the next thing and the next thing.
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And then suddenly your superstar has become the company junk drawer, right?
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They have every responsibility that no one wanted to define.
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And that's not a compliment.
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It's a retention risk.
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And at the same time, those less engaged people that didn't have, you know, purpose and priorities and parameters defined for them, they can hide inside the gray area because when nobody owns the outcome, it's very easy to say, oh, I thought someone else had that.
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You get so mad because Betty keeps saying, oh, I didn't know that was my job.
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And you're like, yes, it's your job.
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What did you define it?
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Because that she can, she can do that.
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So then you have resentment.
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You're high performers are a junk drawer and everybody else is going, I didn't know I had to do that.
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So you get resentment in your team and your high performers are exhausted and your underperformers are protected by ambiguity.
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And then your managers are trying to hold people accountable to invisible Expectations.
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And when employees don't know what they're actually being evaluated on, because performance is living in your head, they don't have solid footing.
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And that's the culture cost.
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People can handle accountability.
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Do I need to say that again?
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People can handle accountability.
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They can.
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They want it.
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Yes they do.
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They cannot handle being accountable to expectations trapped inside your head.
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Correct.
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You've got to talk about it.
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And this connects directly to what we've talked about before with job postings, expectations and performance improvement plans.
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My favorite thing pips write vague job posting attracts confusion.
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Vague role creates frustration.
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Vague standards make performance management feel unfair.
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I just feel it is unfair.
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Yes.
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Right.
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And define roles are good.
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Leadership.
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Hygiene purpose tells people why the role exists.
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Parameters tell them what to own and performance tells them what good looks like.
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And when those three things are clear, people do not become less flexible.
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They become more confident because they know what's going on.
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They do.
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Amazing how that happens.
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It is.
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It's easier to get someplace with a map.
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Yes.
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Like here.
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Here's non-work example of like, how you need to have, like purpose parameters.
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All right.
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You know, family potluck.
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Have you ever had one of those where you're like, everybody just help everybody just bring a dish?
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Does that work in your family?
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Because it doesn't work in mine?
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Well, no. I have a very small family.
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Okay.
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Um, so my sister's going to bring something healthy that no one wants to eat, right?
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I don't want to eat.
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Okay.
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My parents will eat it and say it's wonderful.
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Um. I don't want to eat it.
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Um, if it was up to me, I would bring three different trays of brownies.
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Mhm.
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Um, and hope that mom also made a dessert.
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Yes.
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Yeah.
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I mean, I used to do this, like with, with friends.
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We'd be like, okay, we're gonna have potluck.
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Everybody brings something.
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And then, like, nobody makes a salad.
00:13:11.605 --> 00:13:12.673
Three people bring ice.
00:13:12.673 --> 00:13:16.240
One person brings plates and like, you're ticked because you had to order pizza.
00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:18.740
And like, no, there was nothing.
00:13:18.740 --> 00:13:22.740
Everyone help is not a plan because you were eating ice off of plates.
00:13:22.740 --> 00:13:23.605
Exactly.
00:13:24.639 --> 00:13:26.173
I'm just telling you with a spark.
00:13:26.173 --> 00:13:27.039
I'm assuming yes.
00:13:27.039 --> 00:13:32.773
If this is like if that is happening in your in your real non-work life, think about maybe this can translate into my work life too.
00:13:32.773 --> 00:13:34.373
I mean, everyone help is not a plan.
00:13:34.373 --> 00:13:35.005
It is a hope.
00:13:35.005 --> 00:13:36.505
And hope is not a strategy.
00:13:36.505 --> 00:13:37.472
Correct?
00:13:37.472 --> 00:13:37.773
Yeah.
00:13:37.773 --> 00:13:39.505
No, hope is definitely we.
00:13:39.505 --> 00:13:45.505
We have said that multiple times from like the, the let's, let's go to the HR department.
00:13:45.505 --> 00:13:47.206
Let's go down the hall to HR.
00:13:47.206 --> 00:13:52.005
Oh, they don't want to talk to you right now because you defined you didn't define the roles.
00:13:52.005 --> 00:13:52.806
They're mad.
00:13:52.806 --> 00:13:56.940
HR. HR seems to want to talk to me more than I would like them to.
00:13:58.173 --> 00:14:00.072
That's fair from the HR.
00:14:00.072 --> 00:14:11.605
Like the risk the liability standpoint, like what are some of those legal landmines like the wage, the hour issues, the performance management traps that like, what are those?
00:14:11.605 --> 00:14:19.373
What are those traps that the business owners stumble into when the roles, responsibilities, things of that nature aren't defined.
00:14:19.373 --> 00:14:26.940
And I'm going to add a twist to this in writing because as an ops guy, you know, I'm gonna say it's got to be in writing.
00:14:26.940 --> 00:14:28.105
Absolutely.
00:14:28.105 --> 00:14:28.472
All right.
00:14:28.472 --> 00:14:32.706
So quick disclaimer for those people that think our podcast is legal advice, it's not.
00:14:32.706 --> 00:14:36.206
No, it's not general HR leadership education.
00:14:36.206 --> 00:14:36.906
Listen to us.
00:14:36.906 --> 00:14:39.005
If you need to call a lawyer, you better call a lawyer.
00:14:39.005 --> 00:14:39.740
Don't call us.
00:14:39.740 --> 00:14:39.940
Yeah.
00:14:39.940 --> 00:14:41.406
If you need help on culture, we'll talk to you.
00:14:41.406 --> 00:14:43.472
But we're not going to talk to you about your legal questions.
00:14:43.472 --> 00:14:43.706
Right.
00:14:43.706 --> 00:14:45.340
We are closer to illegal advice.
00:14:45.340 --> 00:14:45.840
Yes.
00:14:45.840 --> 00:14:53.072
Well, and I will tell you, if you're dealing with, you know, wage and hour questions, classification, accommodations, those types of things leave terminations.
00:14:53.072 --> 00:14:56.406
Talk to an HR professional who understands your specific situation.
00:14:56.406 --> 00:14:57.806
I will tell you, I do know a few.
00:14:57.806 --> 00:15:00.206
So you know, that's that's okay.
00:15:00.206 --> 00:15:03.539
You can contact us on HR questions specific to you.
00:15:03.539 --> 00:15:04.306
All right.
00:15:04.306 --> 00:15:07.906
Now with that said, undefined roles are a risk buffet.
00:15:07.906 --> 00:15:09.472
We go back to the food analogies.
00:15:09.472 --> 00:15:10.039
All right.
00:15:10.039 --> 00:15:10.605
I'm hungry.
00:15:10.605 --> 00:15:13.105
Yeah, but it's the kind where every option gives you heartburn.
00:15:13.105 --> 00:15:13.673
All right?
00:15:13.673 --> 00:15:14.806
You don't define the roles.
00:15:14.806 --> 00:15:16.206
Everybody's going to get heartburn.
00:15:16.206 --> 00:15:17.340
That's most buffets for me.
00:15:17.340 --> 00:15:18.906
Or diarrhea, one or the other.
00:15:18.906 --> 00:15:19.806
We're dealing with lettuce.
00:15:19.806 --> 00:15:20.406
Okay.
00:15:20.406 --> 00:15:23.706
So from still a thing.
00:15:23.706 --> 00:15:28.240
From an HR standpoint, written responsibilities matter because they create the baseline.
00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:32.605
And from that baseline, let's go back to those three P's purpose parameters and performance.
00:15:32.605 --> 00:15:40.906
So purpose matters because if you cannot explain why the rule exists, it becomes hard to explain what the person is supposed to own.
00:15:40.906 --> 00:15:51.406
Then when we move to parameters, they matter because they define what belongs in the role, what doesn't belong in the role, and where the authority starts and stops, and when something should be escalated.
00:15:51.406 --> 00:15:55.940
Then when we go to performance, it matters because it defines the standard you are actually evaluating.
00:15:55.940 --> 00:16:00.840
So without those three things, performance management gets messy fast.
00:16:00.840 --> 00:16:07.005
Yes, because how do you discipline someone for missing an expectation that was never clearly defined?
00:16:07.005 --> 00:16:07.906
You don't.
00:16:09.005 --> 00:16:10.206
I appreciate your silence.
00:16:10.206 --> 00:16:10.639
You don't?
00:16:10.639 --> 00:16:10.840
Yeah.
00:16:10.840 --> 00:16:11.340
People try.
00:16:11.340 --> 00:16:11.605
Yeah.
00:16:11.605 --> 00:16:14.740
How do you terminate someone for not doing a job that has changed every week?
00:16:15.873 --> 00:16:17.105
You can.
00:16:17.105 --> 00:16:17.472
Right.
00:16:17.472 --> 00:16:19.673
But it's not gonna it's not pretty.
00:16:19.673 --> 00:16:26.273
I mean, and then how how do you defend a decision if the employee says, well, that was never my responsibility.
00:16:26.273 --> 00:16:30.072
And honestly, they probably have a point because you didn't define it.
00:16:30.072 --> 00:16:32.340
How do you defend that?
00:16:32.340 --> 00:16:34.005
You go, here's your unemployment.
00:16:34.005 --> 00:16:37.406
I believe that that is defensible by.
00:16:37.406 --> 00:16:38.706
Nuh uh.
00:16:38.706 --> 00:16:40.240
No.
00:16:40.240 --> 00:16:41.472
No. Nuh uh.
00:16:41.472 --> 00:16:43.840
It's not a defense in HR.
00:16:43.840 --> 00:16:44.840
The legal term.
00:16:44.840 --> 00:16:45.406
Well, and that's.
00:16:45.406 --> 00:16:47.240
And then you've got that performance management trap.
00:16:47.240 --> 00:16:58.139
And that is a wage and hour risk because, you know, small businesses love to give people a fancy title, put them on salary and then assume that that magically solves over time.
00:16:58.139 --> 00:17:00.706
Oh, I know it does not.
00:17:00.706 --> 00:17:05.306
No, no, a title is not a force field for the Fair Labor Standards Act.
00:17:05.306 --> 00:17:06.873
I know that some people think that it is.
00:17:06.873 --> 00:17:10.673
I'll just put everyone on salary, and then they can do whatever I tell them to do.
00:17:10.673 --> 00:17:12.673
No, that's not how that works.
00:17:12.673 --> 00:17:23.005
Uh, no. If the person's actual day to day work does not match how the role is classified, The title doesn't save you now, and the role creep that you have and wear many hats makes it worse.
00:17:23.005 --> 00:17:24.205
Yes.
00:17:24.205 --> 00:17:25.272
Yes.
00:17:25.272 --> 00:17:25.539
Yes.
00:17:25.539 --> 00:17:31.205
Maybe someone's called a manager, but most of their week is frontline administrative work because someone had to do it.
00:17:31.205 --> 00:17:32.205
That's not just messy.
00:17:32.205 --> 00:17:34.505
That can become exposure to your organization.
00:17:34.505 --> 00:17:37.072
And then there can also be accommodation risks with that.
00:17:37.072 --> 00:17:44.639
If you haven't defined the essential functions of a job, how are you going to evaluate what a reasonable accommodation looks like?
00:17:45.740 --> 00:17:50.440
This is what gives your HR people heartburn and what makes them want to crawl under their desk.
00:17:50.440 --> 00:17:58.205
All right, you you have to know what is truly essential versus what is tradition, preference, or how Karen has always done it.
00:17:58.205 --> 00:18:02.440
You've got to be able to differentiate between those things because they're not the same.
00:18:02.440 --> 00:18:03.640
Are we picking on Karen this week?
00:18:03.640 --> 00:18:05.339
We're picking on Karen and Betty this week.
00:18:05.339 --> 00:18:06.006
Yes.
00:18:06.006 --> 00:18:08.873
They just you know, this is why job descriptions aren't just paperwork.
00:18:08.873 --> 00:18:09.605
They're protection.
00:18:09.605 --> 00:18:13.306
They protect the company, they protect the employee and they protect the manager.
00:18:13.306 --> 00:18:20.339
And really, I think the most important thing is that they protect the relationship because everyone knows what game they're actually playing.
00:18:20.339 --> 00:18:21.105
That's huge.
00:18:21.105 --> 00:18:21.705
Yeah.
00:18:21.705 --> 00:18:24.140
So purpose is purpose keeps the role grounded.
00:18:24.140 --> 00:18:28.006
Parameters keep the role fair and performance keeps accountability honest.
00:18:28.006 --> 00:18:33.405
And without those three things, leaders are going to manage through memory, emotion and vibes.
00:18:33.405 --> 00:18:36.472
And you know, vibes are not documentation.
00:18:36.472 --> 00:18:40.140
I know, I know that people think that.
00:18:40.140 --> 00:18:41.405
And so how does this show up?
00:18:41.405 --> 00:18:41.705
Josh.
00:18:41.705 --> 00:18:45.940
It shows up all the time when leader says, well, you know, Karen should have known.
00:18:45.940 --> 00:18:47.073
Should she?
00:18:47.073 --> 00:18:48.105
Was it written down?
00:18:48.105 --> 00:18:48.740
Was she trained?
00:18:48.740 --> 00:18:49.640
Was it assigned?
00:18:49.640 --> 00:18:53.873
Was the standard clear or did we just expect Karen to develop psychic powers because everyone was busy?
00:18:53.873 --> 00:18:54.339
Yes.
00:18:54.339 --> 00:18:56.506
Karen is not a mind reader.
00:18:56.506 --> 00:18:56.905
All right.
00:18:56.905 --> 00:19:03.339
If the expectation only exists in the hallway conversation nine months ago and nobody told Karen, that's not accountability.
00:19:03.339 --> 00:19:04.272
That's a memory test.
00:19:04.272 --> 00:19:06.740
And you're going to lose way more of those than you win.
00:19:06.740 --> 00:19:08.240
She's not going to remember those.
00:19:08.240 --> 00:19:10.472
No. You're not going to remember.
00:19:10.472 --> 00:19:12.539
No. He'd be like, I thought this was what it was.
00:19:12.539 --> 00:19:14.539
And Karen's like, no, that's not what I understood.
00:20:11.759 --> 00:20:14.492
And then then you're pointing at each other and it's problematic.
00:20:14.492 --> 00:20:20.125
So yeah, yeah, that's just a bad day that really it's just a bad day.
00:20:21.692 --> 00:20:24.559
Now, do you have to have everything absolutely documented?
00:20:24.559 --> 00:20:31.293
I mean, we're going to talk about it because I would say you have to have a lot documented, but it doesn't have it doesn't have to be like the ninety five theses.
00:20:31.293 --> 00:20:40.660
But I'm going to ask you, Josh, you're going to freak out if things aren't completely letter to letter typed out and posted at each workstation, uh, with the right medication.
00:20:40.660 --> 00:20:43.460
No. Okay, good.
00:20:43.460 --> 00:20:45.293
Good answer.
00:20:45.293 --> 00:20:50.226
So in that, how do well-defined roles make day to day operations more efficient?
00:20:50.226 --> 00:20:52.160
And how do they kill that finger pointing?
00:20:52.160 --> 00:20:53.960
Or how do you systematically define them?
00:20:53.960 --> 00:20:56.125
So how do you deal with the it's not my job.
00:20:57.226 --> 00:21:01.192
I know your impersonation of that is classic.
00:21:01.192 --> 00:21:06.160
Um, that's that's, I think I've heard that a few times that very much.
00:21:06.160 --> 00:21:10.692
I believe that, that tells me that you, that you've been raising teenagers for a while.
00:21:10.692 --> 00:21:11.559
That too.
00:21:11.559 --> 00:21:12.893
That's very much.
00:21:12.893 --> 00:21:14.759
So that's where that came from?
00:21:14.759 --> 00:21:15.125
Yes.
00:21:15.125 --> 00:21:16.326
My fourteen year old boy.
00:21:16.326 --> 00:21:18.226
Yes, one hundred percent.
00:21:18.226 --> 00:21:22.593
I may have said some of those similar things about like forty, thirty, forty years ago.
00:21:22.593 --> 00:21:24.226
So yeah, I understand this.
00:21:24.226 --> 00:21:28.125
I've got three parts to things that are just kind of the mechanics of the role ownership.
00:21:28.125 --> 00:21:31.526
Like there's ownership, the coverage and the seat architecture.
00:21:31.526 --> 00:21:41.125
With that, we want to my part, A is eliminating the finger pointing, like let's make it responsibility for output, not tasks.
00:21:41.125 --> 00:21:42.026
Yes.
00:21:42.026 --> 00:21:47.660
I want to make sure like we are outlining the outputs here, like the end goal.
00:21:47.660 --> 00:22:01.160
I know a lot of businesses that get into things, and they start looking at the KPIs of X, Y, and Z, and those KPIs may be related to the final output, but they aren't the final output.
00:22:01.160 --> 00:22:03.593
So they judge this KPI.
00:22:03.593 --> 00:22:06.326
That's final output adjacent, maybe let's call it that.
00:22:06.326 --> 00:22:09.526
And if that goes a little bit askew, they're like, oh, we gotta make a big deal.
00:22:09.526 --> 00:22:13.125
No, because the final output is still maybe it got better.
00:22:13.125 --> 00:22:13.492
Don't.
00:22:13.492 --> 00:22:17.093
So I, to me, I this is going to come as a shock.
00:22:17.093 --> 00:22:20.026
I want neat clean operations.
00:22:20.026 --> 00:22:20.793
Imagine that.
00:22:20.793 --> 00:22:21.326
Yeah.
00:22:21.326 --> 00:22:28.125
He's shocked when everyone has that like explicit operational boundary.
00:22:28.125 --> 00:22:31.093
I used big words there intentionally.
00:22:31.093 --> 00:22:32.860
Those handoffs are clean.
00:22:32.860 --> 00:22:40.860
Work's not going to pile up in gray areas between desks because every handoff is a designated sender and a designated receiver.
00:22:40.860 --> 00:22:51.226
Now, between the designated sender and the designated receiver, this is not chucking work over the fence or over the cubicle wall.
00:22:51.226 --> 00:22:59.925
Oh, and assuming that we're good, we actually have to talk to one another or have a process where we hand off the thing.
00:22:59.925 --> 00:23:00.460
Correct.
00:23:00.460 --> 00:23:00.726
Okay.
00:23:00.726 --> 00:23:01.492
Correct.
00:23:01.492 --> 00:23:01.893
Fair.
00:23:01.893 --> 00:23:08.526
Like every clean handoff requires a built in verification that goes both ways.
00:23:08.526 --> 00:23:11.759
A quick acknowledgement of receipt is just fine.
00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:13.660
Once again, it's received and validated.
00:23:13.660 --> 00:23:15.460
Validated against the checklist.
00:23:15.460 --> 00:23:18.660
The downstream is the immediate quality checks.
00:23:18.660 --> 00:23:22.692
Once again, if you are validating something's come through.
00:23:22.692 --> 00:23:26.726
You're not waiting till the end to realize, uh oh, we screwed this up.
00:23:26.726 --> 00:23:29.360
Yeah, we screwed this up ten steps ago.
00:23:29.360 --> 00:23:31.526
Like, don't wait that long.
00:23:31.526 --> 00:23:40.559
The other piece to that is when you do, when you have like things written out, when you've got processes written out, it is a change management anchor.
00:23:40.559 --> 00:23:48.226
The feedback loops that, hey, when you gave that to me last time, it didn't seem to have the right X, Y, and z to it.
00:23:48.226 --> 00:23:51.160
Like as, as the workflow evolves, people aren't.
00:23:51.160 --> 00:23:57.793
We got to make sure that people aren't using the retired Sop's while the receiver is expecting a new format.
00:23:57.793 --> 00:24:00.460
So make sure in that change management, you're doing it.
00:24:00.460 --> 00:24:13.893
The other thing is, is it gives ownership of the zone when I know my exact role, when I know my boundaries within the whole machine of what I'm doing, I own my station completely.
00:24:13.893 --> 00:24:22.125
That means I am directly responsible for diagnosing and resolving any breakdowns that happen in my area.
00:24:22.125 --> 00:24:25.593
And I know what my area is.
00:24:25.593 --> 00:24:28.960
It's not just this general space over.
00:24:28.960 --> 00:24:30.360
No, there's a line.
00:24:30.360 --> 00:24:33.226
Yes, that is between like that stops.
00:24:33.226 --> 00:24:35.559
This is this is where you give the handoff.
00:24:35.559 --> 00:24:38.393
This is where like things happen.
00:24:38.393 --> 00:24:41.960
I want you to anchor this on those specific outputs.
00:24:41.960 --> 00:24:50.326
If you stop, like too many people define roles on vague activities, like helps with production.
00:24:51.860 --> 00:24:52.726
Like what?
00:24:52.726 --> 00:24:53.559
What is that?
00:24:53.559 --> 00:24:54.460
Yes.
00:24:54.460 --> 00:24:55.226
What is that?
00:24:55.226 --> 00:24:57.160
You've got to define it, right?
00:24:57.160 --> 00:25:01.093
You've got a product that has fifty two parts to it that all need assembled.
00:25:01.093 --> 00:25:04.393
And you're going to say you need to help with production.
00:25:04.393 --> 00:25:05.393
What?
00:25:05.393 --> 00:25:06.059
What is that?
00:25:06.059 --> 00:25:06.793
Is that to the right?
00:25:06.793 --> 00:25:08.826
To the left is that I'm in step five.
00:25:08.826 --> 00:25:11.593
So I need to be able to help with step six and step four.
00:25:11.593 --> 00:25:12.059
Correct.
00:25:12.059 --> 00:25:12.726
Define it.
00:25:12.726 --> 00:25:13.160
Yes.
00:25:13.160 --> 00:25:23.026
To me, like the responsible, like the way it should be, is responsible for running quality assurance and updating production status in asana by four p m daily.
00:25:23.026 --> 00:25:24.625
Yeah, that's a great example.
00:25:24.625 --> 00:25:25.759
Here's the expectation.
00:25:25.759 --> 00:25:28.226
Yes, here is exactly where we're trying to get.
00:25:28.226 --> 00:25:39.059
If the deliverable isn't on the dashboard by four p m as the leader, you're not going around and asking ten people what happened to the project today?
00:25:39.059 --> 00:25:40.259
You know exactly.
00:25:40.259 --> 00:25:41.226
You know where it stopped.
00:25:41.226 --> 00:25:41.460
Yeah.
00:25:41.460 --> 00:25:46.259
You're going to the person and saying, hey, what happened?
00:25:46.259 --> 00:25:47.925
Once again, this isn't finger pointing.
00:25:47.925 --> 00:25:49.393
This is finding out why.
00:25:49.393 --> 00:25:51.726
Why the wheels fell off in this.
00:25:51.726 --> 00:25:56.393
Now, something else that I want to cover is the job description versus the operational role.
00:25:56.393 --> 00:25:59.360
The job description is the legal shield.
00:25:59.360 --> 00:26:00.259
It is.
00:26:00.259 --> 00:26:05.960
That is what you're using to say, hey, this is generally what you are doing.
00:26:05.960 --> 00:26:07.326
Generally accepted.
00:26:07.326 --> 00:26:08.593
Correct for the role.
00:26:08.593 --> 00:26:11.960
Yes, it is a static HR document with.
00:26:11.960 --> 00:26:13.559
It's going to have some boilerplate.
00:26:13.559 --> 00:26:16.326
It has to compliance language to it.
00:26:16.326 --> 00:26:21.259
And it's probably going to have other duties as assigned other duties as assigned.
00:26:21.259 --> 00:26:24.860
And even though you don't work in manufacturing, why does it say I have to lift up to twenty five pounds?
00:26:24.860 --> 00:26:27.793
Because eventually you may have to put paper in the copier.
00:26:27.793 --> 00:26:29.425
That's why it's there.
00:26:29.425 --> 00:26:30.393
I had someone ask me that.
00:26:30.393 --> 00:26:32.059
Why do I have to be able to live twenty five pounds?
00:26:32.059 --> 00:26:35.460
I'm like, I don't know, because you may have to move files and they may be in a box.
00:26:35.460 --> 00:26:38.393
So, you know, we just say twenty five pounds.
00:26:38.393 --> 00:26:40.460
I'm not telling you, you got to lift a tub of water.
00:26:40.460 --> 00:26:41.726
I do that, that's fifty.
00:26:41.726 --> 00:26:44.059
So you know, it's fine.
00:26:44.059 --> 00:26:44.559
Where'd you go?
00:26:44.559 --> 00:26:45.360
There, Hercules?
00:26:45.360 --> 00:26:46.759
Yeah.
00:26:46.759 --> 00:26:47.393
That's why.
00:26:47.393 --> 00:26:48.226
That's why I work out.
00:26:48.226 --> 00:26:50.526
So I can flip the water machine.
00:26:50.526 --> 00:26:51.559
It's impressive.
00:26:51.559 --> 00:26:51.860
Let me know.
00:26:51.860 --> 00:26:53.726
I'll stop by the office next time you do that.
00:26:53.726 --> 00:26:54.559
To watch.
00:26:54.559 --> 00:26:55.393
Cheer you on.
00:26:55.393 --> 00:26:56.026
You're welcome.
00:26:56.026 --> 00:26:56.226
Yeah.
00:26:56.226 --> 00:27:04.960
We'll all sit back with popcorn and do that to me, the the role with this, like it's the the role is the operational reality.
00:27:04.960 --> 00:27:07.625
It's not the job description, it's the role.
00:27:07.625 --> 00:27:15.360
It is the living inventory of deliverables, cadences, and the SOP execution.
00:27:15.360 --> 00:27:16.326
It answers.
00:27:16.326 --> 00:27:18.360
What output do you hand off?
00:27:18.360 --> 00:27:20.259
It answers, when is it due?
00:27:20.259 --> 00:27:22.526
It answers who receives it?
00:27:22.526 --> 00:27:25.726
And most of all, it answers.
00:27:25.726 --> 00:27:27.793
What does done look like?
00:27:27.793 --> 00:27:28.625
Please?
00:27:28.625 --> 00:27:31.860
Yes, these are these are the big defining things in here.
00:27:31.860 --> 00:27:42.992
You're not going to put that in the job description because if you put that, you now have a seven hundred page document that is going to make sure that no one ever comes to work for you ever again.
00:27:42.992 --> 00:27:43.793
Yes.
00:27:43.793 --> 00:27:45.992
But you have defined your parameters in these.
00:27:45.992 --> 00:27:46.726
So good job.
00:27:46.726 --> 00:27:48.526
Correct, correct.
00:27:48.526 --> 00:27:50.326
Um, we covered the three.
00:27:50.326 --> 00:27:52.759
We're you're covering the three P's in more detail.
00:27:52.759 --> 00:27:54.259
So I'm very excited about this.
00:27:54.259 --> 00:27:56.026
Imagine that.
00:27:56.026 --> 00:27:57.026
We're Intentional.
00:27:57.026 --> 00:28:01.793
Well holy cow, it's like they think about the same things from a different angle.
00:28:01.793 --> 00:28:12.360
Um, to me, like as someone that's been an employee in a lot of places, when I know that I have clear lines, when I know what the hell I am supposed to do and what done looks like, I'm fine.
00:28:12.360 --> 00:28:20.593
I can like if it's an automotive shop, I know what I need to do to back that car out of the out of the bay and say it's done.
00:28:20.593 --> 00:28:26.793
If I'm an Hvac technician, I know that I can go in and push start, and if it starts up, I'm done.
00:28:26.793 --> 00:28:28.360
I can get the heck out of there.
00:28:29.460 --> 00:28:30.826
So what happens?
00:28:30.826 --> 00:28:36.593
Like, I loved when you said PTO should not be panic.
00:28:36.593 --> 00:28:38.026
Yes.
00:28:38.026 --> 00:28:38.759
Never.
00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:45.593
This is why you need the like the defined roles.
00:28:45.593 --> 00:28:49.326
Because what happens when there's like when roles are fuzzy?
00:28:49.326 --> 00:28:53.125
Let's say someone calls out what happens to your company.
00:28:53.125 --> 00:28:54.960
Does it come to a screeching halt?
00:28:54.960 --> 00:28:57.192
Everyone runs around screaming and yelling.
00:28:57.192 --> 00:28:58.425
Correct.
00:28:58.425 --> 00:28:59.360
The building's on fire.
00:28:59.360 --> 00:29:00.125
But not really.
00:29:00.125 --> 00:29:00.860
Correct.
00:29:00.860 --> 00:29:02.960
Someone's kid had a fever.
00:29:02.960 --> 00:29:06.826
So, like nine nine people in your function, right?
00:29:06.826 --> 00:29:10.360
Cannot function are going to end up in therapy next week over this.
00:29:10.360 --> 00:29:12.593
That's that's what happens can't happen.
00:29:12.593 --> 00:29:13.226
Right.
00:29:13.226 --> 00:29:14.759
That's here's the other thing.
00:29:14.759 --> 00:29:21.059
And this, this is the key that I really want to touch on with this with undefined roles.
00:29:21.059 --> 00:29:25.192
You make it really difficult on yourself to fire a toxic employee.
00:29:25.192 --> 00:29:26.360
Yes you do.
00:29:26.360 --> 00:29:26.826
Yes.
00:29:26.826 --> 00:29:35.326
Like if you have a toxic employee, if you have defined roles, it's pretty easy to say, okay, they did these fifteen things.
00:29:35.326 --> 00:29:39.593
You take five, you take three, you take four, and you take whatever the numbers are.
00:29:39.593 --> 00:29:42.393
It's pretty easy to do that if you don't have that.
00:29:42.393 --> 00:29:50.860
That is why so many leaders are trapped and held hostage by that toxic employee.
00:29:50.860 --> 00:29:56.125
And half the time that toxic employee has become that toxic employee because they were the employee junk drawer.
00:29:56.125 --> 00:29:58.360
So they learned how to do everything.
00:29:58.360 --> 00:30:03.625
And you can't get rid of them because they do way too much because you never defined anybody else's role either.
00:30:03.625 --> 00:30:04.160
Yep.
00:30:04.160 --> 00:30:05.625
In fact, I want to flip it a little bit.
00:30:05.625 --> 00:30:08.759
It's the toxic employee isn't the one holding you hostage.
00:30:08.759 --> 00:30:10.425
It is your lack of process.
00:30:10.425 --> 00:30:10.992
Yeah.
00:30:10.992 --> 00:30:11.393
Holding.
00:30:11.393 --> 00:30:12.160
I like that better.
00:30:12.160 --> 00:30:17.726
It's the lack of process that is holding a hostile person inside your house.
00:30:17.726 --> 00:30:20.326
You have locked in the bad guy.
00:30:20.326 --> 00:30:25.860
Um, that's like when if a robber breaks into your house while you're home and you're like, you know what?
00:30:25.860 --> 00:30:27.259
I should lock the door.
00:30:27.259 --> 00:30:27.860
Yeah.
00:30:27.860 --> 00:30:28.660
I'm not gonna leave.
00:30:28.660 --> 00:30:29.793
I'm just gonna watch you.
00:30:29.793 --> 00:30:30.559
Right.
00:30:30.559 --> 00:30:31.326
Let's be friends.
00:30:31.326 --> 00:30:32.393
That's not how that works.
00:30:32.393 --> 00:30:34.026
No. Definitely not.
00:30:34.026 --> 00:30:42.160
So, like, to me, like, I, I, I don't expect everyone to be like, oh, we need to plan for this.
00:30:42.160 --> 00:30:45.925
So we are going to spend the next six months mapping every single thing, every.
00:30:45.925 --> 00:30:47.526
No, you're just, you can't do that.
00:30:47.526 --> 00:30:51.160
Twenty percent, twenty percent of the most important things get you eighty percent there.
00:30:51.160 --> 00:30:55.226
You don't need an overengineered contingency binder for every seat.
00:30:55.226 --> 00:30:58.026
On day five or day six.
00:30:58.026 --> 00:31:07.393
But the very first time that someone is out of the building, you have an opportunity to map their daily responsibilities in real time.
00:31:07.393 --> 00:31:16.826
Document it once, convert it to an SOP, convert it to the roles, and now you've got an actual document that's usable.
00:31:16.826 --> 00:31:17.460
Yeah.
00:31:17.460 --> 00:31:18.460
Holy cow.
00:31:18.460 --> 00:31:18.793
Yeah.
00:31:18.793 --> 00:31:22.192
And it's some of the stuff isn't hard.
00:31:22.192 --> 00:31:23.492
We just don't do it.
00:31:23.492 --> 00:31:28.960
No. I mean, and the other thing is too is I know you have seen this.
00:31:28.960 --> 00:31:45.625
I've seen it so many times, like major surgeries, vacations, um, parental leave, like pregnancies sneak up on the people that get pregnant sometimes, but like going on maternity leave, that should not be a surprise for anyone.
00:31:45.625 --> 00:31:47.660
They're like, oh my gosh, she's leaving in a month.
00:31:47.660 --> 00:31:50.360
You've known for at least for.
00:31:50.360 --> 00:31:50.692
Right?
00:31:50.692 --> 00:31:51.625
You've known.
00:31:51.625 --> 00:31:52.360
Don't be dumb.
00:31:52.360 --> 00:31:57.726
There's been signs like the fact that she spent like, half of her day shopping online for car seats.
00:31:57.726 --> 00:31:59.526
You kind of figured that out.
00:31:59.526 --> 00:32:01.960
Even if you didn't want to ask the question, there were signs.
00:32:01.960 --> 00:32:03.059
There were signs, correct?
00:32:03.059 --> 00:32:03.492
Correct.
00:32:03.492 --> 00:32:05.960
Like I said, there suddenly shopping for car seats.
00:32:05.960 --> 00:32:06.492
Yes.
00:32:06.492 --> 00:32:10.893
MM. They just got there talking with someone about the brand new thing about maternity leave.
00:32:10.893 --> 00:32:11.360
Right?
00:32:11.360 --> 00:32:11.860
Yeah.
00:32:11.860 --> 00:32:12.059
Right.
00:32:12.059 --> 00:32:12.726
It's a thing.
00:32:12.726 --> 00:32:13.893
It's not a surprise.
00:32:13.893 --> 00:32:15.226
So do yourself a favor.
00:32:15.226 --> 00:32:20.393
Like, chunk those deliverables, like, break it into, like, the daily outputs.
00:32:20.393 --> 00:32:22.259
Break it into the weekly cadences.
00:32:22.259 --> 00:32:24.425
Break it into the monthly runs.
00:32:24.425 --> 00:32:26.526
That way you've got those items.
00:32:26.526 --> 00:32:30.860
The daily, weekly, monthly items defined for the role.
00:32:30.860 --> 00:32:31.059
Yeah.
00:32:31.059 --> 00:32:32.026
Have I mentioned that?
00:32:32.026 --> 00:32:32.826
Mhm.
00:32:32.826 --> 00:32:34.259
That way that's all defined.
00:32:34.259 --> 00:32:43.625
And, you know, you have a rough idea of how you can redistribute that and maybe like winding up to this, take that for a test drive.
00:32:43.625 --> 00:32:49.026
If you know, you've got someone that's good at something that's adjacent to what someone else does.
00:32:49.026 --> 00:32:50.992
Maybe that's something they take on.
00:32:50.992 --> 00:32:55.692
I've seen it in so many cases where they're just like, hey, Betty's going to be out.
00:32:55.692 --> 00:32:56.793
Here's all her stuff.
00:32:56.793 --> 00:32:57.826
Good luck.
00:32:57.826 --> 00:32:58.526
Yeah, don't do that.
00:32:58.526 --> 00:33:07.026
And they give it to one person and I'm like, no, no. Like, this is an opportunity that I'm sure that like, Betty's got some great skills.
00:33:07.026 --> 00:33:14.192
But if it's answering the phone and don't give it to the grumpy person in the office, give it to the nice person in the office.
00:33:14.192 --> 00:33:16.360
Give it to the friendly person in the office.
00:33:16.360 --> 00:33:18.026
Do those types of things.
00:33:18.026 --> 00:33:24.160
The last thing that I want to cover, too, is part like the leader's five step guide to defining roles.
00:33:24.160 --> 00:33:27.093
Yes, build it like we're going to call this building the clean sheet.
00:33:27.093 --> 00:33:29.460
So you're going to inventory the delivered deliverables.
00:33:29.460 --> 00:33:31.160
Step one.
00:33:31.160 --> 00:33:32.425
Those are not tasks.
00:33:32.425 --> 00:33:34.660
Those are not feelings.
00:33:34.660 --> 00:33:36.059
Don't go up to someone.
00:33:36.059 --> 00:33:40.059
So tell me what it is you do here at Initech.
00:33:40.059 --> 00:33:43.960
No, do not ask people what they do all day.
00:33:43.960 --> 00:33:45.393
No. What do you do all day?
00:33:45.393 --> 00:33:49.160
Like you have to ask the question of yourself and you need to do the research.
00:33:49.160 --> 00:33:54.093
What are the recurring outputs that this seat produces to keep the business moving?
00:33:54.093 --> 00:34:00.793
Once again, categorize those daily, weekly, monthly as needed and define what done and accurate looks like.
00:34:00.793 --> 00:34:01.259
Yes.
00:34:01.259 --> 00:34:06.293
From two assign a single point ownership to every handoff.
00:34:06.293 --> 00:34:09.992
Make sure that you have like if two people own an output, guess what?
00:34:09.992 --> 00:34:11.259
Nobody owns it.
00:34:11.259 --> 00:34:14.860
Assign exactly one primary owner to every deliverable.
00:34:14.860 --> 00:34:17.893
It's got to go through them before it goes to the next person.
00:34:17.893 --> 00:34:20.393
Define the designated receiver.
00:34:20.393 --> 00:34:24.293
And I know I mentioned the verification before on that.
00:34:24.293 --> 00:34:28.192
So that way work never gets chucked over the wall into the void.
00:34:28.192 --> 00:34:28.960
Yeah.
00:34:28.960 --> 00:34:32.092
Step three align the seat to the player.
00:34:32.092 --> 00:34:33.360
Like is it the architect?
00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:33.992
Is it the builder?
00:34:33.992 --> 00:34:34.826
Is it the contributor.
00:34:34.826 --> 00:34:37.259
We've talked about these A, B and C players.
00:34:37.259 --> 00:34:41.625
Make sure that the role scope matches the operational profile.
00:34:41.625 --> 00:34:48.525
Do not take your architect and be like hey I've got fifteen pages of data that needs entered into Excel.
00:34:48.525 --> 00:34:52.492
Have fun for the next nine weeks that this person is gone.
00:34:52.492 --> 00:34:53.425
Correct?
00:34:53.425 --> 00:34:53.960
Correct.
00:34:53.960 --> 00:34:55.360
That's how they find another job.
00:34:55.360 --> 00:34:55.860
Correct.
00:34:55.860 --> 00:35:03.525
They will find you will find like if that architect is named Bob, you will find a bob shaped hole in one of your walls, or they're bored or they break things.
00:35:03.525 --> 00:35:07.859
They either don't do it or they completely redesign your process, and then you're mad because they broke it.
00:35:07.859 --> 00:35:09.392
Yep, yep.
00:35:09.392 --> 00:35:11.859
Um, match the level of autonomy with the seat.
00:35:11.859 --> 00:35:26.159
Um, build the step four is build the living operational role sheet, like ditch the dusty five page PDF in Google Drive, a one page operational scorecard that like directly inside the project management tool.
00:35:26.159 --> 00:35:30.625
So whether it's asana Clickup notion, what any one of those include, the three things.
00:35:30.625 --> 00:35:32.359
What are those three things?
00:35:32.359 --> 00:35:33.792
Core recurring deliverables?
00:35:33.792 --> 00:35:34.192
Yes.
00:35:34.192 --> 00:35:36.992
Direct links to the corresponding SOPs.
00:35:36.992 --> 00:35:41.159
So that way they can just click and they see the whole process if they need to.
00:35:41.159 --> 00:35:46.459
And then the two three dashboard metrics that prove that the process is and or isn't working.
00:35:46.459 --> 00:35:53.825
Last, the thirty day friction audit, you know, I'm all about like going back and saying, hey, we changed things.
00:35:53.825 --> 00:35:54.459
Did it work?
00:35:54.459 --> 00:35:56.025
Don't assume it worked.
00:35:56.025 --> 00:35:57.059
Like, oh, I think it's great.
00:35:57.059 --> 00:35:59.359
No, everyone hates you because you never followed up.
00:35:59.359 --> 00:36:00.825
Follow up.
00:36:00.825 --> 00:36:02.525
You have you.
00:36:02.525 --> 00:36:11.959
You have four people in the lunchroom, like looking at their lunches, like, maybe I choke on this, or they're plotting to leave, right?
00:36:11.959 --> 00:36:13.559
You're like, I thought everything was fine.
00:36:13.559 --> 00:36:16.159
No. Well, why isn't it because you never asked?
00:36:16.159 --> 00:36:17.059
Got to ask.
00:36:17.059 --> 00:36:17.759
Correct.
00:36:17.759 --> 00:36:26.459
So when you do that, schedule a thirty day review, schedule a ninety day review, open the friction log together and say, where did the gray areas appear?
00:36:26.459 --> 00:36:32.092
Where did the hand off stall and what assigned tasks fell into someone's lap?
00:36:32.092 --> 00:36:37.692
Like you have to take your star player and be like, hey, what did you just take on because you saw it wasn't getting handled?
00:36:37.692 --> 00:36:42.292
You need to ask those things, adjust those boundary lines collaboratively.
00:36:42.292 --> 00:36:48.859
So the role that you are talking about reflects the real world for that person.
00:36:48.859 --> 00:36:49.459
Yeah.
00:37:28.355 --> 00:37:33.855
What happens when you get the not my job versus healthy boundaries?
00:37:33.855 --> 00:37:36.755
Like how do leaders cultivate an environment?
00:37:36.755 --> 00:37:46.422
Because the problem is, as business owners and I know many business owners are like, we just want to go out on the floor and everyone is whistling while they work.
00:37:46.422 --> 00:37:49.355
And if there's a problem, everyone's clapping for you.
00:37:49.355 --> 00:37:51.889
Everyone's clapping for you because you're just brilliant.
00:37:51.889 --> 00:37:56.555
And there's like, no job goes like undone because you know what?
00:37:56.555 --> 00:37:59.089
We're just perfect in every way.
00:37:59.089 --> 00:37:59.455
Yeah.
00:37:59.455 --> 00:38:02.755
As opposed to boundaries where I'm not doing that because that's not my job.
00:38:02.755 --> 00:38:03.555
Right.
00:38:03.555 --> 00:38:04.222
Not my job.
00:38:04.222 --> 00:38:04.622
Okay.
00:38:04.622 --> 00:38:09.655
So there's a difference between boundaries and healthy boundaries.
00:38:09.655 --> 00:38:11.355
So boundaries are not the enemy of teamwork.
00:38:11.355 --> 00:38:13.589
Healthy boundaries are what make teamwork sustainable.
00:38:13.589 --> 00:38:15.455
That's what makes us want to work all together.
00:38:15.455 --> 00:38:22.055
So the problem is when leaders confuse flexibility with endless availability for whatever no one else wanted to define.
00:38:22.055 --> 00:38:32.355
So when an employee says, that's not my job, sometimes it is attitude, but sometimes it's also a tired person saying, every time I help, this somehow becomes mine forever.
00:38:33.355 --> 00:38:38.389
So I think it's really important as we think about those people that talk about not my job.
00:38:38.389 --> 00:38:45.622
Sometimes it's because they've got resentment from either a past position or because they've just continued to pick things up and be that junk drawer.
00:38:45.622 --> 00:38:48.622
So I think leaders have to define things clearly.
00:38:48.622 --> 00:38:50.189
So purpose parameters, performance.
00:38:50.189 --> 00:38:51.389
Josh purpose.
00:38:51.389 --> 00:38:55.155
Why do we need you to step in parameters?
00:38:55.155 --> 00:38:59.422
What are you helping with for how long and what are you not taking over permanently?
00:38:59.422 --> 00:39:00.389
And then performance?
00:39:00.389 --> 00:39:02.689
What does success look like during the crunch?
00:39:02.689 --> 00:39:10.789
I think people are much more willing to step in outside of their lane when they trust they're not being quietly drafted into a second job.
00:39:10.789 --> 00:39:13.622
Yeah, I mean, we hear about it all the time.
00:39:13.622 --> 00:39:14.822
I now have three jobs.
00:39:14.822 --> 00:39:18.789
Well, and flexibility without parameters is punishment for the people that are high performers.
00:39:18.789 --> 00:39:19.055
Yep.
00:39:19.055 --> 00:39:20.155
It just is.
00:39:20.155 --> 00:39:25.355
Um, this is going to make you happy than sad because I am going to make a sports analogy.
00:39:25.355 --> 00:39:27.189
Yay! Um. It's soccer.
00:39:27.189 --> 00:39:29.022
Of course it is.
00:39:29.022 --> 00:39:30.889
It's never football.
00:39:30.889 --> 00:39:32.755
No, it's football season.
00:39:32.755 --> 00:39:34.389
Football.
00:39:34.389 --> 00:39:36.889
See, I knew I was going to get you through the World Cup with you.
00:39:36.889 --> 00:39:38.355
And now it's football season.
00:39:38.355 --> 00:39:38.889
You're like.
00:39:38.889 --> 00:39:39.622
Right.
00:39:39.622 --> 00:39:43.855
Uh, the funny thing about this is, is like, I was a goalkeeper.
00:39:43.855 --> 00:39:47.555
Um, I ran, I had an eighteen yard box that I like.
00:39:47.555 --> 00:39:48.355
That was my home.
00:39:48.355 --> 00:39:49.822
That's where I lived.
00:39:49.822 --> 00:39:51.355
Um, end of the game though.
00:39:51.355 --> 00:39:52.989
We're down by one goal.
00:39:52.989 --> 00:39:58.022
You could be darn sure I am running to the other end of the field even though I didn't want to.
00:39:58.022 --> 00:40:01.389
I'm running to the other end of the field to help out, to do.
00:40:01.389 --> 00:40:05.289
To do something that is well outside of my job duty.
00:40:05.289 --> 00:40:07.355
But I knew my role in that.
00:40:07.355 --> 00:40:09.422
Everyone else knew what I was doing.
00:40:09.422 --> 00:40:11.689
They knew why I was doing it.
00:40:11.689 --> 00:40:15.055
And once again, everyone formed back in that.
00:40:15.055 --> 00:40:21.455
They also knew that once that play was over, I was hustling my butt back into the goal.
00:40:21.455 --> 00:40:24.589
Oh yeah, you better get there to get back to my normal job.
00:40:24.589 --> 00:40:29.489
Because once again, there was there was a defined scope to it and there was a defined time to it.
00:40:29.489 --> 00:40:33.289
So those that that's going to be my sports analogy for the year.
00:40:33.289 --> 00:40:37.022
Um, we have all seen the people that have the Franken job.
00:40:37.022 --> 00:40:37.622
Mhm.
00:40:37.622 --> 00:40:47.622
What happens to employee number two or three as the or ten or twelve as the company grows from, let's say one million to five million.
00:40:47.622 --> 00:40:53.355
And then once they're all hands role becomes the collection of fourteen unrelated duties.
00:40:53.355 --> 00:40:57.589
Because now you've got six departments in your business.
00:40:57.589 --> 00:41:00.955
And Bob has been here since it was one business.
00:41:00.955 --> 00:41:02.422
There was no departments.
00:41:02.422 --> 00:41:02.822
Yeah.
00:41:02.822 --> 00:41:07.189
And Bob does a little bit of marketing, some of the production.
00:41:07.189 --> 00:41:09.789
And he also still unloads the trucks.
00:41:09.789 --> 00:41:10.389
Yeah.
00:41:11.889 --> 00:41:13.222
And this one's hard.
00:41:13.222 --> 00:41:17.322
I think it can get tender for people because early employees often help build the business.
00:41:17.322 --> 00:41:25.622
And so like, you know, early hire may still be carrying all of those things because, you know, we ask Sarah because Sarah knows where the bodies are buried.
00:41:25.622 --> 00:41:26.622
Right.
00:41:26.622 --> 00:41:28.222
But at some point, that's not loyalty.
00:41:28.222 --> 00:41:30.022
That's role debt.
00:41:30.022 --> 00:41:31.622
And you're the one that went morbid on this.
00:41:31.622 --> 00:41:31.922
Wow.
00:41:31.922 --> 00:41:32.955
I did, I did.
00:41:32.955 --> 00:41:38.789
But I mean, because I think that founders have to stop trapping early employees in the startup version of the role.
00:41:38.789 --> 00:41:39.089
Yes.
00:41:39.089 --> 00:41:39.322
Right.
00:41:39.322 --> 00:41:42.855
They've got to ask the people, you know, what gives you energy?
00:41:42.855 --> 00:41:48.222
What work are you best at, what work should live or what work should not live with you anymore?
00:41:48.222 --> 00:41:51.655
That's a really good question to ask people.
00:41:51.655 --> 00:41:53.422
I mean, we love that you're here.
00:41:53.422 --> 00:41:55.889
We love that you've built this business with us.
00:41:55.889 --> 00:41:58.222
Tell us what shouldn't live with you anymore.
00:41:58.222 --> 00:42:02.689
And it may be something that you're like, you put them in leadership and they're like, I don't want to do that.
00:42:02.689 --> 00:42:04.889
No. And you've got to be willing to say, okay.
00:42:04.889 --> 00:42:07.322
I mean, what lane do you want to grow in?
00:42:07.322 --> 00:42:13.322
Is another great, great question to say because that's how you honor the person without turning them into the company's operational attic.
00:42:13.322 --> 00:42:20.122
It's funny you say that because like, I've always looked at it very much as as the company grows, like I've got a great team.
00:42:20.122 --> 00:42:24.689
Yeah, I know what they enjoy and what they want to keep.
00:42:24.689 --> 00:42:28.855
So I need to hire for what they don't want.
00:42:28.855 --> 00:42:30.289
Um, that's my first question.
00:42:30.289 --> 00:42:31.722
Like as we grow.
00:42:31.722 --> 00:42:33.589
Like, what do you want to get rid of?
00:42:33.589 --> 00:42:35.322
What do I need to hire for?
00:42:35.322 --> 00:42:42.422
Um, those are the things that I'm looking at because unfortunately, people too often are like, hey, we need someone in shipping and receiving.
00:42:42.422 --> 00:42:45.022
And that may be Bob's favorite part of the job.
00:42:45.022 --> 00:42:45.855
Yeah.
00:42:45.855 --> 00:42:48.089
But they see a problem there because Bob is off.
00:42:48.089 --> 00:42:49.822
He got dragged into something else.
00:42:49.822 --> 00:42:50.355
Yeah.
00:42:50.355 --> 00:42:51.622
And that's what they go for.
00:42:51.622 --> 00:42:57.522
Honor the loyalty of the people that helped you build the business by asking them, what's the work that you would like to keep?
00:42:57.522 --> 00:43:06.422
Now, sometimes you have to make hard decisions, and the work that they would like to keep is not the work that they're best at, but most of the time, the stuff that they want to keep is the stuff they're really good at.
00:43:06.422 --> 00:43:06.955
Yep.
00:43:06.955 --> 00:43:07.422
Mhm.
00:43:07.422 --> 00:43:08.789
So here's a question.
00:43:08.789 --> 00:43:12.855
And I like to me, I, I'm big on this one.
00:43:12.855 --> 00:43:15.055
So I am going to answer my own question right off the bat.
00:43:15.055 --> 00:43:15.589
Please do.
00:43:15.589 --> 00:43:17.589
There's the single point of failure.
00:43:17.589 --> 00:43:22.722
We've all seen it where one person knows how to do an essential function in the business.
00:43:22.722 --> 00:43:25.722
There's the one person that knows how to do payroll.
00:43:25.722 --> 00:43:30.222
Um, that's not crippling to your company or anything if they're in a car accident.
00:43:30.222 --> 00:43:35.622
Um, is that an operational failure, a training failure or a role definition failure?
00:43:35.622 --> 00:43:37.889
To me it is.
00:43:37.889 --> 00:43:44.789
It's an operational it is a standard operations procedure failure disguised as a staffing problem.
00:43:44.789 --> 00:43:45.055
Yeah.
00:43:45.055 --> 00:43:50.122
If a function only exists in Bob's head, the business, you got a hostage.
00:43:50.122 --> 00:43:50.922
You don't have a business.
00:43:50.922 --> 00:43:51.722
You have a hostage.
00:43:51.722 --> 00:43:52.222
Yeah.
00:43:52.222 --> 00:43:53.855
It's an absolute business risk.
00:43:53.855 --> 00:44:01.455
But the other thing, too, is it's also an employee burden, because you've got that employee that can only do those things.
00:44:01.455 --> 00:44:02.055
They can't leave.
00:44:02.055 --> 00:44:02.789
They can't do anything.
00:44:02.789 --> 00:44:03.855
They can't take a real vacation.
00:44:03.855 --> 00:44:05.022
They can't get sick without guilt.
00:44:05.022 --> 00:44:10.222
They can't sit at dinner without their phone lighting up because nobody else knows how to access the sacred spreadsheet.
00:44:10.222 --> 00:44:13.089
I mean, the sacred spreadsheet.
00:44:13.089 --> 00:44:14.189
Sacred spreadsheet.
00:44:14.189 --> 00:44:15.822
And leaders romanticise it, too.
00:44:15.822 --> 00:44:18.222
They'll be like, we can never live without her.
00:44:18.222 --> 00:44:20.189
I mean, the business would be sunk without them.
00:44:20.189 --> 00:44:22.589
Oh, I feel like to me, that's that's horrifying.
00:44:22.589 --> 00:44:23.955
Well, and it sounds like praise.
00:44:23.955 --> 00:44:29.822
And I'm sure that some people think it's praise, but I mean, sometimes it means we've put way too much weight on one human being to call it appreciation.
00:44:29.822 --> 00:44:31.122
Like that's just.
00:44:31.122 --> 00:44:32.489
No, it's not fair.
00:44:32.489 --> 00:44:35.655
Being valuable should not mean being unable to disconnect.
00:44:35.655 --> 00:44:39.622
So you've got to be able to kind of build things around those people.
00:44:39.622 --> 00:44:46.355
Don't define your purpose parameters and performance standards build back up to yes, yes.
00:44:46.355 --> 00:44:48.055
A couple of key takeaways from today.
00:44:48.055 --> 00:44:50.955
Um, don't, don't pass things into the void.
00:44:50.955 --> 00:44:52.855
Build two way handoff checks.
00:44:52.855 --> 00:44:55.222
Don't chuck it over the wall and assume it's good.
00:44:55.222 --> 00:44:55.489
Yes.
00:44:55.489 --> 00:44:58.255
And I would say define purpose, parameters and performance.
00:44:58.255 --> 00:45:02.055
If you want cleaner accountability, start by defining those three P's.
00:45:02.055 --> 00:45:14.422
And in those three P's, defining the role helps you break the hostage trap so you can take that toxic employee and dump them at the curb whenever you want, and protect the superstar junk drawer.
00:45:14.422 --> 00:45:15.689
The junk drawer thing was hilarious.
00:45:15.689 --> 00:45:16.822
Check on your highest performers.
00:45:16.822 --> 00:45:20.855
Make sure they aren't quietly absorbing all those unassigned tasks and heading toward burnout.
00:45:20.855 --> 00:45:21.889
Just get them.
00:45:21.889 --> 00:45:22.322
Are.
00:45:22.322 --> 00:45:23.255
Are you okay?
00:45:23.255 --> 00:45:24.622
Are you the operational junk drawer?
00:45:24.622 --> 00:45:25.222
Don't say that.
00:45:25.222 --> 00:45:26.889
But, like, just think it in your head.
00:45:28.222 --> 00:45:30.455
Check, check, check.
00:45:30.455 --> 00:45:33.189
Your deliverables for planned absences.
00:45:33.189 --> 00:45:37.289
Um. Don't search for a single superhero like, hey, Mary's pregnant.
00:45:37.289 --> 00:45:39.922
So, Krissy, you're going to do Mary's job.
00:45:39.922 --> 00:45:40.422
Yeah.
00:45:40.422 --> 00:45:41.089
As well as your own.
00:45:41.089 --> 00:45:41.889
Congratulations.
00:45:41.889 --> 00:45:42.922
We're not going to pay you anymore.
00:45:42.922 --> 00:45:44.422
You're just going to do it.
00:45:44.422 --> 00:45:44.655
Yeah.
00:45:44.655 --> 00:45:45.289
Please don't quit.
00:45:45.289 --> 00:45:55.489
The other thing is follow my five steps there with this single, single biggest indicator that an employee's role is poorly defined.
00:45:55.489 --> 00:46:00.189
Constantly asking permission for basic routine decisions because they don't know where their authority ends.
00:46:00.189 --> 00:46:00.955
That's it.
00:46:00.955 --> 00:46:05.922
I see that to me, the the one that I hear is I thought someone else was doing that.
00:46:05.922 --> 00:46:06.722
Oh, yeah.
00:46:06.722 --> 00:46:09.055
Like, oh, I thought it was their problem.
00:46:09.055 --> 00:46:10.889
I think that was my job.
00:46:10.889 --> 00:46:15.889
Can you hold someone for accountable accountable to an output that wasn't in their written?
00:46:15.889 --> 00:46:21.022
Now I'm going to be I'm going to be tricky on this wasn't in their written job description.
00:46:21.022 --> 00:46:25.689
So my phrase is if it ain't on the page, it ain't on the stage.
00:46:25.689 --> 00:46:28.222
So it's a coaching moment.
00:46:28.222 --> 00:46:30.289
It is never a punitive one.
00:46:30.289 --> 00:46:37.022
So yeah, no, I like if you didn't define it and provide the runway look in the mirror, you're a problem.
00:46:37.022 --> 00:46:43.489
No. How often should a growing business formally audit and update those role descriptions at least daily?
00:46:43.489 --> 00:46:50.055
No. Josh that is I vehemently disagree with you daily.
00:46:50.055 --> 00:46:51.489
What's wrong with you?
00:46:52.789 --> 00:46:53.889
I'm an operations guy.
00:46:53.889 --> 00:46:55.622
That's what's wrong with me.
00:46:55.622 --> 00:46:59.822
Your CEO just went right right, right right.
00:46:59.822 --> 00:47:03.355
Christie's Christie's now having a stroke after hearing me say that?
00:47:03.355 --> 00:47:09.555
No. Anytime a new tool, a major hand off changes like head count, like changes.
00:47:09.555 --> 00:47:12.355
Anytime you have a change, really, that's what you have to do.
00:47:12.355 --> 00:47:17.189
I don't disagree with you, but I'd say at least you have to do it annually for those people who are like, yeah, I don't want to do it.
00:47:17.189 --> 00:47:17.522
Yeah.
00:47:17.522 --> 00:47:25.555
If you haven't done it, if it's if you haven't made those big changes, like enough other stuff outside of the planet, it has changed.
00:47:25.555 --> 00:47:25.889
Yeah.
00:47:25.889 --> 00:47:31.722
Or if you've had a significant operational restructure, if you've restructured, you have to do it.
00:47:31.722 --> 00:47:33.455
That's not a oh, we'll get to it.
00:47:33.455 --> 00:47:35.122
No, you do it now.
00:47:35.122 --> 00:47:35.989
Yeah.
00:47:35.989 --> 00:47:37.155
Because Christie said so.
00:47:37.155 --> 00:47:38.055
Yes.
00:47:38.055 --> 00:47:39.289
With authority to that.
00:47:39.289 --> 00:47:41.089
We did that to me.
00:47:41.089 --> 00:47:42.122
Don't screw that up.
00:47:42.122 --> 00:47:44.955
No. To me, that seems like a great place to end.
00:47:44.955 --> 00:47:49.122
That being said, thank you to everyone for tuning in.
00:47:49.122 --> 00:47:59.489
We, I, I, I'm flabbergasted when I see the number of people that are like, it's truly it's for, for both of us.
00:47:59.489 --> 00:48:02.255
This is truly an honor to get to do this.
00:48:02.255 --> 00:48:05.255
We are honored that you are along for the ride.
00:48:05.255 --> 00:48:06.189
We appreciate it.
00:48:06.189 --> 00:48:09.589
We are looking forward to doing this more and more and more.
00:48:09.589 --> 00:48:13.055
If you want to hear something, go to Business Fix podcast dot com.
00:48:13.055 --> 00:48:17.055
We would absolutely love to hear from you.
00:48:17.055 --> 00:48:20.255
Um, we didn't figure out what we're talking about next week.
00:48:20.255 --> 00:48:21.255
No, we haven't yet.
00:48:21.255 --> 00:48:22.522
That's going to send us topics.
00:48:22.522 --> 00:48:23.655
People send us topics.
00:48:23.655 --> 00:48:27.889
We've got a list of them, but we would love to hear what you want to have us talk about.
00:48:27.889 --> 00:48:29.255
That being said, do us a favor.
00:48:29.255 --> 00:48:30.322
Take care of yourself.
00:48:30.322 --> 00:48:32.889
If you can take care of someone else too.
00:48:32.889 --> 00:48:36.355
We will see you very, very soon.