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Speaker 1: Please be advised this story contains adult content and graphic language. When she's trapped, it just falls apart. It's just awful. And I said, no, no, you didn't think about what I should have done or what I could have done. You said, you told me to burn the body. Did you think I was Dan? Last night? Welcome to Sleuth. I'm Linda Sawyer. That chilling moment you just heard happened between Rachel Buffett and her then boyfriend Scott Arrett, who spent two years with Rachel. Only months after Dan Wozniak's arrest for murder. In an exclusive interview, Scott sat down with us to talk about his time with Rachel. So I wanted to first sort of recall when we first met. And I remember you live pretty far from here, right almost two hours out in the high desert. And I remember renting my little orange juice canned car, and I think I was driving through what they called the grape Vine or something like that before that. But you're on the fourteen, which is just a windswept high desert. Oh my gosh. All I remember is white knuckles and I'm like, why is this car moving into other lanes? And I'm not asking it to do. Am I going to make it a lie? And then it got there is like this for this New York City girl is like making County Line with those tumbleweeds. It is. I live in Maybury, RFD. That's what it's like. Yeah, it's a very odd place, but I like it. So I'm like, well, you know, I have to talk to Rachel Buffett's ex boyfriend, who who who knows it all? Who heard it all and saw it all? Right? So I said, it's it's gonna be worth it, And eight hours later it was yeah, yeah, was. We had a good time, though, we did. We talked for a long time. We certainly we closed down the coffee shop. I think we opened it and closed it. Right. Yeah. Every once in a while my mouth would drop, but I pull it back out. Yeah, well you made me. I mean I started because I hadn't thought about it in a while, and I start talking about it, and I realized just how bizarre it sounds when you say it out loud and when someone's typing it into their computer. Yeah, when you're just in the middle of it, just all this one thing, But when when you're telling on someone who's who's typing it you're going do I say that? Well, yeah, and then she says, hey, how about come on come on my podcast the Country. Sure, yeah, well but I love what you're doing, so I think it's a good idea, So somebody has to It's incredible to me that the most, the most they can charge you with is accessory after the fact. Well, we have been speaking to quite a few people and you or I've tried to pose the question, you know, is it possible that she didn't know that she was duped, which is what she's saying, and there is just not one Yes, there's like, oh god, no, have you talked to her mother? No? But I've certainly made my pleasantries, but they pretty much, I think at this point try to keep to themselves, probably smarter well, certainly after Dr Phil I think she even said, you know something, because Steve Hair, who's the father of Sam, said to her, I'd appreciate if you'd stopped doing interviews and wait till the trial, because if you're innocent, let's have the justice system decide that. And she said, maybe I have made a mistake coming on the show. You think sort of unraveled. I'd love to know your impressions because you did say you saw her on the show. Um, it was a typical performance. It was the big dough eyes and the Disney Prince's head nods and the how dare you think us of me? And we're talking about two dead people and families that are grieving, and still she managed to make the show all about her, which tells you a lot right there. And she's the victim, not the dead people, not the family the dead people, but she's the victim. And she even referenced that, and I think she felt like she was being gracious when she said, listen, I'm a victim, but I know I come after Julia and probably even the victims families. It's like, oh, you know, you're really figuring where you are on it? How gracious? How how you know? Extraordinary that it's like pure psychotic narcissism. It's right there on display. I know that I'm not the main victim. Sam and Julie are the main victims, and then I think even secondary would be their families. I'm after all that. I realized that, and that's why that's why I didn't want to come out in the limelight before two and a half years ago. I tried to keep it to myself and tried to work through it and try and do my own little hillieling process or whatever. Let's talk about the church in Christianity and how it plays such a part in this in the family, in the Buffett family, and certainly you know firsthand. I mean, I think one of our interviews, Daniel Hulkyard, who was a friend of Dan Wozniak, said that she hides behind her faith. Would you agree with that statement. She didn't just hide behind it, she uses it. It's it's it's brilliant. I saw a meme the other day that made me think of her, and it says something about never trust someone who can just confess their crimes to their imaginary friend once a week. And I thought, there you go, you know, I mean, the whole story with her father and the hookers and the bankrupting the family and then getting angry with her mother because she was hurt by it. I'm telling her, I've been forgiven. You need to get over it. Did he really say that in your presence? No? No, no, Rachel told me about it. Her mother told me about it. But that's how they feel. Once once got forgives you, you're good to go. In fact, I think you even said to me when we met that Monday through Saturday, do whatever you want, but as long as you ask for forgiveness on Sunday. Well I think I told you. I think she sees the Ten Commandments as a bucket list, and she's getting through it really well. I mean, you know, she's crossing him off that list one at a time, and it's okay because on Sunday goes sorry and then you can start all over again. I've asked this of people that you know, are they're born again or really Christianity is is a you know, certainly a backbone of their livelihood. And I'm like this whole forgiveness stuff like God forgives you, God forgives everyone on death row and every so you could just do whatever you want and then just say God forgive me. And the person said to me, but you have to mean it. And I think if you're psychotic enough, you can do it, confess it and mean it and then do it again. I mean, why not you know, um that long before anybody was murdered, she, you know, a thief like nobody's business for for fun, just steal things for fun, And how you can be the alter religious person and think it's fun to see how much crap you can walk out of Walmart with stuffed in your clothing is bizarre to me. I know. I've had interviews with several of her friends that she literally stole on pretty much a daily basis. I mean, whether it was food, alcohol, clothes, furniture in their house. I mean one of the gals who was supposed to be in her wedding party said she even stole her bridesmaid's dresses. In her wedding dress, I'm like, how do you do that? I mean, she's a tiny thing. Where did she fit it? I don't know. She's very ingenious. I was at Walmart with her one time and she told me she was going to steal some makeup and I said, no, no, not not, not while I'm here. You can do whatever you want her, but if you need makeup, I'll buy it for you. I'll buy it. Well, no, I don't need it, It's okay. So we get up to the checkout stand and she says, oh, I forgot something, and I thought, oh no, and she runs back to the makeup section, but she came back with this little thing of like perfumer, nailpolo something something in an in a box and so I took it out of her hand and put it on the thing and I'm paid for it, you know. And we got into the car and she started just like giggling minightly. I'm like what. And she opened the box and said, this is a box for a five dollar one and I put this twenty one in the box. And she was so proud of herself. Wow. And I said, I was going to pay for it. What difference does it mean? But it was it was the thrill of doing it. It's the thrill. It's the adventure of violating the Ten commandments. I swear your bucket list, it's her bucket list. One of uh, one of her friends, one of their mutual friends that they had met recently, a gentleman by the name of Chris Williams, who was the person that loaned them the money to stave off the eviction week of the murders. And he's got a story himself. But uh, he met with them the night before. They invited him over it for like barbecuing mineral sausages whatever, and he said that he felt as if there was this feeling of We've got to know what the next level of challenge in our lives feels like. We need to know what it feels like to to maybe what it feels like to murder someone. And the reason he said that was he said that Dan had recited on the deck. Uh this, I don't know if you know this movie, The Talented Mr. Ripley. Anyway, it's a it's based on a Patricia Highsmith book who sort of was the equivalent of Stephen King in Europe, and she does all these kind of creepy stories and and the lead in the movie, The Talented Mr. Ripley was played by Matt Damon and that was Dan's favorite movie role. And in front of Chris Williams, Dan starts reciting seeing as the character of Tom Ripley, who steals people's identities and then when they figure out who he is, he kills them. So there's Daniel reciting, you know, word for word scenes as if he's that Matt Damon character, and then he sings this song, this beautiful Aria, word for word, and literally Chris said, I was chilled to the bone because at that moment, sam Hair leans over his deck and he said, hey, you know, not get off down there. You guys having some fun, and and Daniel's like, come on down, Sam, and it's like, no, I'm going to go to bed, but I'll see in the morning. And he goes, Okay, you know, see you tomorrow. Thanks for helping me, Like, because Sam, that was the day that Sam he had arranged for tomorrow was the go help him move in the in the theater, and that was the day Dan murdered Sam. Yeah, so he's like a sorrow how And honestly, when that whole scene is is you know, told to me, I got chills because right, I'm mean life imitating art, Like it's just so bizarre. And and that's person said to me, I just got the feeling like they wanted to know. They needed to know the next level of crazy. They needed to know what it felt like to kill someone, you know. So it sort of falls in line with a lot of what you told me about her. Are your experiences with her? That's really creepy? Um, there is I think there's a there's a feeling of superiority. Um because well, first of all, you know, God's on her side, so how can you beat that? That's pretty perfect by it. So and there's that feeling of she loves to manipulate and see what she can get people to do that's outside their comfort zone. And so I think she generally, um in partners, picks people that she thinks she's going to be able to manipulate like that. She made a mistake with me. It didn't work. But and if you work for your five other wives, thank you, thank you. Let's just bring that up. Why don't we? No, it didn't because I'm a little strong world. Um, but the manipulation thing, she would play weird manipulation games, weird weird, weird stuff. I remember. I remember going to the movies once and it was like fifteen minutes before we even so we bought our tickets and we're sitting on these stairs out of the movie theater and all of a sudden, I don't know where, she says to me, I've and she would say this stuff with a straight face, and that she would she would look at you with and say, I've decided that my walk with Jesus isn't strong enough, and so we need to stop having sex because it's against my religion. So at that I didn't know that there was a religion that was against sex. Well, you know, we weren't married, so it was it was a horrible sin. I was getting laid on a regular basis by someone half my age, so I might die in between. There's a risk everything. I can't believe tell you these things. Okay, this is amateur psychology, and who knows. But she was so controlled growing up. I've never heard of people editing the bad parts out of Disney cartoons. But her parents wouldn't let them wauch a movie unless they had gone through and taken out anything they didn't like in like Bambi. I was just gonna say, like baby taking a shower. I don't know they would take out anything with it. So she and she wasn't not to go to school, and she wasn't how to play with the kids in the neighborhood, and she wasn't, you know, because they weren't good Christians, so I think in her only book. So then she decided to go to college, and I think her parents weren't very fond of this idea, but she wanted to do it. So she went to the local community college, and all of a sudden, the world opened up and she realized, oh my god, I'm pretty, I can be sexy, I can hold my liquor and I can and she just think she should power. Yeah, absolutely absolutely, Guys, you're panting and looking at her, and she Okay, I've got this power, and she learned to use it. And when she jumped, she jumped. I mean that's seriously, That's when the ten Commands became, not not the ten Commandments, but the bucket list that was, I can get away with anything. Her friends at school at college said that she started to smoke because she felt like because she was homeschooled, she really didn't know how she could relate to other people in a social setting, and so she thought that made her look cool, and the same thing with the drugs, like I'm going to be cool now because I want everybody like me, or at least feel like I belong. And part of that, I think is, you know, the isolation of homeschooling and and what that does to your own psyche. You know, we really haven't had the chance to, you know, exchange and be a part of a regular day life of a kid. Yeah, or find out who you are and what you what you like and don't like because the only thing you have is what's spoon fed to you by you're slightly insane parents. I believe that you told me a story that she shared with you about this a gay student at the college. Tell us, tell tell us about it. I don't know a lot about it. I know she she gets a great kick and a giggle out of the fact that there was this gay kid and she talked to him into having sex with her so that she could show me wasn't gay, or so that she could just so that she could do it again. Manipulation. I don't know. Maybe if I can get this gay kid to have sex with me, that's an accomplishment, and she did. There's more to the story. I heard from her boyfriend at the time in college where she came back, that she took him. She took him side of the rehearsal space they were in a in a show together, and brought him back to I guess the dorm apartment whatever. And they did, in fact have got conjugal visit, but it didn't go so well. And supposedly she came back to set and ridiculed him in front of the cast to the point where he left the school. That would make sense. Yeah, I mean, well, he's gay and that's she's religious. That's wrong, you know, well because God, because it's murder, okay, but being gay that it's ungodly. Yeah, you know, I have to wonder when you have a family that's so structured and the whole idea of faith and leading the good life of a Christian is just permeates their their everyday existence. Right. But yet she finds out that the reason why they're not well off and quite frankly, always struggling for money is because the father's spending his paychecks on prostitutes and gambling. That's got to make you hate your father, or hate man, or or hate the idea of being poor because of a man. Do you feel like that in some way had some bearing on some of her behavior and choice. I think that rose her father up a few notches in her eyes, really, how so, because she has no respect for anybody or anything normal. So I think her father doing that made her go, cool, look what he's doing, because she thinks her mom's a moron, Because her mother just is nothing but Jesus all day long. I mean, there's posted notes all over the house, and the Jesus pillows and Jesus did this and pictures on the wall, and her dad said, enough of that, I'm going to go have fun. And I think she liked that. I think she respects. So the rebellious act is what she approved of. Yeah, yeah that. Yeah. Now didn't he at one point actually have an extra marital affair that Marian found out that tell us about How did you learn about that? Um? She told me about it, and she said that her mother found notes in the glove box or someplace something like that, and but she she was never angry with him. She wasn't like, I can't believe he would do something like that. She were just talking about that's what my dad did. Not my mother is really upset. Uh, let's go steal something, you know. It was just a matter of fact. Yeah, I didn't really bother her. So if it didn't have to do with her, it didn't bother her. How did you first meet Rachel Buffett Um? I was working at Medieval Times and uh, she came to work at Medival Times as a princess um and I had been dating one of the other princesses and uh that was falling apart, and then Rachel came worked this. So I called her one night and said, do you want to get together and have coffee or something? And she said she was out with her brother or her brothers, I don't forget what, but when they get back. Sure. So she met me at a coffee shop, um, down here in Orange County because it was a long drive home for me, so I would often stay down here. And we sat there talking forever, and I remember we were talking about acting. We were talking about medival time, so what it was our place it is? And we were talking about uh, she had worked for Disney, what it was our place that was? And just as we were getting ready to part for the evening, she says to me, oh, by the way, just you should know that if you're going to become friends with me that, um, you may be investigated by the FBI and and and polices, police forces and things like this. And I said, well, why is that? She's well, I had something happened, I said, what did you do, sud No, I didn't do anything, but my ex fiance did something and I don't I don't want to talk about it, but just so you know that that could happen, I said, okay. So good night. We laughed. So let me started seeing each other more, and I kept asking, what what is it? What? What did he does? The drug dealer? No, no, no, no, what what what does it? And finally didn't know. I had no idea. And finally with that, I said, so, come on about your experiency. What is he like? An AX murder or what? And her face her and a D shades have read and she said, we need to talk, and I okay, and I'm thinking, oh my god, he's an AX murder. So he met for dinner. She told me the whole her version of the whole story, and my job was on the ground, I thought, and it works. I thought, oh, your poor thing, Oh my god, that that she was engaged to be married to this guy, and that nothing he was leading a complete double life, and everything he said was a lie, and she believed it all because she was madly in love with him. And then all of us sudden he had murdered her friends and she couldn't believe. And I'm thinking, oh my god, this is terrible. That lasted for a while, and the more we talked and the more I learned, the more I realized that story isn't quite the way it happened. There's a little more to it than that. And oh my god, I think you killed people. Pardon me, you know, but it happens. So because honestly, she is can be pretty good at that Disney princess, big blue eyed, looking up at you with all the innocence in the world. For a while, I think in passing it works. But when you start to see the pattern and you start to put together with all the other stuff, and you go, oh, this is and it works for like a short stint, a sound bite that if you're on anything longer, like a Dr Phil show. Eventually, when she had her press conference after when she was arrested November, when she was finally released and they had a little press conference in front of the jail and and uh, you know, she was batting away there and just you know, oh my gosh, I'm innocent. And Noah was there, you know, caressing her. And that's as we'll talk about that in a minute. But that evening she was telling friends I've interviewed those friends and they and that she said to instead of being like just for Loren that you know, you're about to marry this psychotic right, instead she's telling all her friends. Do you hear them? They're calling me an actress? Oh my god. Yeah, that's was her overwriting statement about all of the press that she was getting from that day because now she's famous, right wow. And even when she was on Dr Phil, he made some comment about you know that sounds of rehearse. Now you are an actress, so we have to be aware of that, and you might be a very good actress that she recoiled like in this like kitten like you know, posture, just smiling ear to ear like That's all we're talking about here, right, is that that you could be a good actress. You know, That's that's really not the that's not the headline, right, you know, but you're talking about her, so it's good. As long as you're talking about her, it's all good. It's all wonderful. So after you heard that story or what you thought was the real story, you you felt for her. Yeah, I mean she was a victim in all this, you know, and tragic and horrible. Does someone so young and pretty and cute and just innocent and sweet would be subjected to this horrible murdering? I mean I bought it, and I think I'm a pretty shrewd guy, but I'm not sure I was thinking properly. So I bought it. I thought, wow, so you were going to, yeah, be her protector and sure that you know, there's a there's a whole wonderful world out there, come out, ride horses, have a good time. Yeah. So it's just slowly. It was started with the stealing, and started with the drinking, and then the stealing stuff, and then the pride in in the strangest things. At one point we were just casually dating. At this point, she got all excited because she gets a free trip to Vegas. I said, how are you getting a free trip to Vegas? And there was some guy was gonna take her to Vegas. Yeah yeah, And I said, well that's not quite free. I don't think he's taken it there for free. Well, you know, we'll see what happens. I don't have to do anything. So she goes to and we're texting and she took her friend along on her friend is Kelly is just another bizarre Is that Kelly Fleming? I don't know her real name, like Kerosene Kelly. I think that's Kelly Fleming And she's man, what um, just a huge enabler, huge enabler and has some strange she she would take her to lesbian clubs. Yeah, and Rachel insisted, well, she's not gay. I said, why, why why would she be taking you to lesbian clubs? Well, just I mean to show off. So that's why it didn't make any sense. And now I'm going to think, well, maybe she's not the sweet and maybe she's just remarkably stupid. And then I slowly realized, no, she's not stupid either. She liked being shown on because it was all about her. So her friend, who insists to her, look, I am not gay. I just want to take you to this club and show you off as my girlfriend will pretend it's like the trophy girl, the trophy wife. Yeah, I don't know. It was the most bizarre. So she takes her with her to Vegas. I don't think this guy thinks he's got it made. Now he's gonna go home. Probably did. So we're taking and she texted something to me about, well, you know, I had to thank him last night. What what are you a prostitute? This is the most bizarre thing. So she comes back and she tells me I've been in tears for two days. I can't believe you would think that of me. I said, wait a minute. You went to Vegas with some guy, you said, kind of creep you out, but you had sex with him in exchange for being taken to Vegas. And you're upset that someone would consider that prostitution. Are you serious? So there's a preamble to that story. Okay, well I'd love to know the preamble to that story. James Mulligan told me that, you know, he's a fantastic artist. I mean, truly does all this Disney art. And and I guess one of his clients was a church, a local church, and he they asked him to do the like the Nativity scene in one of the walls on the on the church. And so he's, you know, painting the whole scene, the whole Nativity, Baby Jesus and all. And and she walks in with a fifth of vodka. And she walks down the aisle and what heads over to him? And he said, before he knew it, there she was down on him doing a little a little number that he said, I did color outside of the lines. At that point, you know, I'm just the juxtaposition of this, you know, very religious scene, right, one of the most religious scenes. And there she is doing what she's doing. I said, oh my gosh, Well the dichotomy is he's not lost, it's okay. She She's at my place one night and she wakes up. It's probably two or three in the morning, and she says, I feel an evil presence. And by that time I was starting to think maybe it's you. So I feel an evil presence. I said, I'm sorry. What would she like to do about it? And she said, do you mind how I put on some praise music? And I said, I think I'm fresh out of praise music. I don't think I am. She said, well, I'm getting on your computer. I said, go ahead, whatever, you go ahead. She gets up and she goes to my laptop and she somehow hooks up the thing and next thing I know, you know, the laptops. Our God is an awesome God, he reads, and she climbs back in bed and goes down. I mean, we have sex to our God is an awesome God. I guess that's what she needs. That's it gets her going. My word, nothing makes you hot like Jesus. I don't know, it's just bizarre. It's bizarre. Didn't you tell me? Also you had to cover up? Oh yeah, that was another she said. And she just comes out to this stuff out of nowhere. She says to me, I can't come out to your home anymore. At this one, she was coming out very regularly, and I said, hey, why not? She said, well, you have dragons all over the place, and I like medieval stuff, so I've got different like ceramic and the resident little dragon sculpture of things. You know, well, she said, I said, well, what what does that have to do anything? She said, well, they represent Satan. Know, they represent dragons. What are you talking about? She said, well, dragon dragons are often used to represent Satan because they're serpent like. And said, okay, well these don't these represent medieval you know, n slang dragons that it's just dragons. It's it's okay, But no, I can't come out there anymore. I said, okay. So I had some little dragons coming and some of these little swords. So I put the little swords by the little dragon. Said there, I've killed all the dragons. Can you come out now? And she says, no, you have to. You have to take them on down I said, well, I'm not gonna take them down. So that's that's the end of that. And about two days later she said, are you going to take me home after the show? I said, they're dragons. There'll be dragons out there, and she said it's okay. I said, okay, good bizarre bizarre stuff and everything relates back to God, to Jesus, to religion, to the whole upbringing that she straight so far from ambassardized so much, but she she hangs onto it. Well, she pulls it back in when she needs it, right, yeah, oh yeah, well yeah. She her current boyfriend worked with us at the castle. All three of us worked at medival times, and he's a pastor son, and they would quote scripture to each other and they would talk about Billy Elliot. He shows up in court a lot. He shows up with like scriptures, needle pointed in his shirt. Yeah, well, you know he's a good Christian, he said. He has some interesting tattoos. Yeah, he's got some lovely and now I'm not often alone with men when they're naked, but um, at medival times, everyone kind of gets dressed in the same area. He's got some lovely nipple piercings and uh and his crotch reads raw Dog. Editor's note. I had no idea what raw Dog meant, but my editor sure did. Well, it's locker room talk. It's a guy who has sex without a condom. Really, yeah, that's it. So I mean, but it's I think it says raw dog. For Jesus, No, I'm just kidding. It doesn't say that. So there was a point in time in her life where she was heavily involved in drugs, and it was certainly during the times of the murder and soon after the murders that she uh, you know, she was getting getting crystal meth and ecstasy from all of her her friends. And I don't know if she shared that with you or not, but that was definitely a part of their life. Yeah, she talked about it. Yeah, she talked about the numb feeling and how much she liked the numb feeling. And and I remember that stuck in my because she was talking about she was almost intimating that you could do anything while you're feeling like that because you don't have any feelings of responsibility or any any guilt, any anything. And I'm thinking, was that when you planned this stuff then did it all make sense while you were that messed up? You know, I don't know because I don't understand, right, I don't get it. But I mean, I've been told by people. I've I've never done these drugs either, but I've been told by people when you are on crystal meth, you could murder your own grandmother. You know, I mean that you have you have no soul anymore. You just don't care, Like you said that, there's just no remorse, there's no nothing, there's no your numb and and what's amazing to me is as numb as she is in everyday life, I can't imagine how empty she would be with some chemical help. I mean, that's really scary, it really is. That's a frightening thing, you know. You I think you've said to me before something about her eyes. There's nothing there. I honestly, I the last the last few months of dating were more like research because I thought I should write a screenplay about this, and I was gonna call it empty because she is soulless. You can look at it and there's nothing there. They might light up if you're talking about something she's excited about at the moment that about her. But for the most part, they're they're empty. There's nothing there, and that's normal. That's when she's sober so and you can see it. You can see it in the interviews. You know what you can see in a Disney cartoon. Obviously, there's nothing there. It's it's a one dimensional there. It is. That's what they look like. And it fools you for a minute because it looks like a Disney cartoon. But look at a closer realized this is a live, actual human being and it looks like a one dimensional Disney cartoon. And she was a she was she was a Disney princess. She had sex with Daniel in the shell, know aerial shell at Disneyland. She was very proud of that, very proud of that. And she also stole from there. She was bad about that because there's such security there, but somehow she managed. That's what her boyfriend at the time, Kyle Rubelle, was saying that. You know, he said the same thing, I'll pay for it, don't steal it. And yet she went off with a cousin of hers and and came back all giggly because she was so proud of herself. Yeah, yeah, that's quite the accomplishment. Amazing, right, Yeah, totally. She also has an interesting relationship with her brother Noah. That's one way to put it. Yeah, it's a sick relationship. It really is. Tell us why you think so? Um, God, several several things. One of them is the the codependency when it comes to drinking. And finally, at one point I told her, look, I'm not ever going to meet you in a bar again. This is never gonna happen again, so I'm not doing it. So that's it. And one night I get out of work. She wasn't working as a princess that night, I was working at the castle. I got out and there are all these messages from her, please come to be. My brother's in trouble. I need help. So I called her and said where are you? When she named the bar and I said, no, I told you I'm not coming to the bar. So I don't know what to do. He's crazy. I said, I'll come get you out of the bar, but I'm not hanging around, and she said okay. So I went over there and there she sits with Noah and he's crying and she's crying and they're both just sloppy drunk, and I said, okay, well, let's go and we'll talk about it. So what is this? So we got I get him out to my car and I said, what is going on? Well, Noah's girlfriend had gotten pregnant. So he's trying to decide whether a really sharp kick in the stomach we'll take care of it, or if he needs to actually push her down some stairs. Or Rachel's great idea, which is she can call I think it was Kelly and get a whole box of the Morning After pills and then grind those up and put it in her food and oh dear on that stuff, and surely that would cause her to spontaneously aboard. So and I said, well, okay, this whole thing is nuts. I mean, where would you even get that? Rachel's Kelly, and she brought him over. Did you have them now? Yes? And I said no, have you even talked to her yet? Well, she called me and she said she was pregny. I said, but have you talked her about what she wants to do? Maybe she doesn't want to go through with the pregnancy. Maybe it's all okay, maybe it's shouldn't you find that out first? And Rachel's just well, he's really upset and he just found out about this, and I said, well, don't humor him. For christ sake, you said about killing somebody. What is wrong with you? So I took him home and took her back to my place and said, this is nuts. This is absolutely nuts. And the next day the girl and Noah talked and she said, you know, I don't want to have a baby, and he said, okay, well we'll take care of it. That that was it. But he's getting ready to kill her. What the he? How is that a plan? Even? How was that even planed? B? I don't know plan B. That's very good. I saw what she did there. So and then shortly after so this got me talking about Noah more because now I'm I'm just fanded. And then she starts, you go deep, well, so to speak, and she starts talking about how small Noah's penis is. And after the third or fourth reference, I said, how do you know? And she said, I quote, somebody's got to teach him what to do with it. Did you infer that she had sex with her brother from that statement? Yeah? Pretty strongly? Yeah? Yeah? And did she sort of give you that indication that she did have sex. What was she teaching him? I think so, yeah, because who better than her? She's brilliant. She really said that, That's what she said. Then she refused to discuss it anymore. So did you follow up with are you telling me that you've had oh? Yeah, yeah, and she said, I don't want I'm not going to talk about this. I'm not going to talk about this, which was her standard m O, which is to drop the bomb and then say I'm not going to talk about this. In every instance, when you saw Noah and Rachel together, did you get the feeling like it was beyond a normal brother sister relationships? Yeah? And I asked her about it, um and she said, well, you you don't know, you don't have a sister. I said, well, no, I don't, but I mean it's you know, it's kind of weird. No, it's not. It's perfectly normal. What did you think of their relationship on Dr Phil? It was creepy. What was really creepy to me is why he was wearing a black knit hat on Dr Phil. I'd never seen that before. I didn't see him a lot, but I saw him occasionally went to the wine bar or whatever it is that he had a few times, and I saw him at his house and you know, with the family though. The whole thing about the man with the black hat, I know, and that was the basis for one of Rachel's felony charges. This man in a black hat that she repeated as the last person to be with Sam and he was made up right, and he chooses to go on Dr Phil wearing a weird knit black hat. It was a very strange thing. I don't know if he was going to try to it looked to me he was going to try to set up some alibi thing where she was said, you know what I saw. No, that's what made me think of it. No, always where is this black hat? That's how bizarre and calculated, but stupidly calculating. I mean, if you look at the murders, the plot, the plan, the conspiracy is so stupid. It's so stupid that only they could have planned it. I firmly believed she helped plan that. So you're at this point, are you sed an item? Are you still together? That was really late and at that point I'm really trying to find out what in the hell did she murder these people? I'm thinking, maybe he's completely innocent, and she did it. I know, I'm going, what the hell she's plotting with her brother. She's her brother is talking about maybe kicking her in the stomach, throwing her down some stairs, that causing her board. She's talking about killing her. So I thought, well, okay, did at one point you feel like you were in crazy town? Oh yeah, it was definitely crazy town toward the end, definitely crazy town. It was. It was kind of a kick, it was kind of I'm just fast. Yeah, I want to know now. But the final straw was driving her home drunk and she's sleeping in my lap because I said she likes to cuddle Chris like a little kitten, you know, which is very sweet. So we're driving home after singing karaoke and having a good time up until you know, she's incoherent and she snuggles up on my lap and I'm really thinking, this is, this has gotten just nuts. This probably should end soon. This is I'm not sure this is worth it. Even even even the old man with the pretty young thing is going just don't think it's worth it anymore. And she starts mumbling in her sleep. So I'm driving and I said, what did you say? And she reaches up with a fist and smacks me really hard in the chest and says, I told you to burn the body. And I just kept drying, what do you? What the hell? So little later, what did you say? Nothing? She's out? How many times did she say it? Just once? And then she was out. So we got home and the next morning I said, do you know what you said to me last night? But the next morning you're not right away right, You're cooking this elaborate breakfast yea, which I found quite fascinating, like French sometimes breakfast, I know, but it was like French eggs and yeah, and some hash browns and some sliced avocado. I mean talking about fresh ruttle Stephen King moment. Well, I wanted her to be comfortable because you knew you were going. Oh, I have to ask about this. I think you even said to me you knew that was going to be the last breakfast. This is it. It's kind of like the last supper, example is the last breakfast. And and I said, do you know what you said last night? And we're sitting out I have this little patio area outside. I don't smoking the smoke out there. You know. Let's you were having a little outside, finished the breakfast, some coffee. Do you know what you said to me listening? So this is now outside, Yeah, in like a cabata Yeah where that? Yeah? Okay? And she said no, what And I said, well, you hit me and you said I told you to burn the body. And she said, I did not say that. I said, yeah you did. No, I said you should have burned the body. I'm thinking, oh, you you know that. You said something in your sleep first. It's so bad. I know, it's so bad. When she's trapped, it just falls apart. It's just awful. And I said, no, no, you didn't say about what I should have done or what I could have done. You said you told me to burn the body. Did you think I was damn last night? I don't want to talk about it. That's it. That's what you can't talk about anymore. And it really just ended there. It certainly sounds that this outbursts that you're telling us about Scott was in fact Rachel thinking she was instructing Dan what to do with Sam's body, because, after all, Dan left Sam's lifeless body in the theater attic and for her to make that comment to you. Scott tells me that perhaps she and Dan spoke about burning the body because maybe Dan told her about the incinerator that was located in a building behind the theater, right, And the theater was located on a military base, and the building behind the theater was in fact a military hospital, and oftentimes are brave soldiers didn't come back in one piece, and their body parts were sent to the morgue and in fact incinerated. And there was this incinerator that Jeff Hathcock, who was the owner of the theater at Liberty Theater at the time, did show Dan this. He Dan was always fascinated with the macabre, and and I think it was Halloween when he gave him a tour of the morgue and pointed out the incinerator. So they obviously had this conversation. Because the idea of suggesting to burn the body makes me feel like she knew she knew about the incinerator. She went to visit the theater many times, but certainly the one visit that stands out to me is the visit that she and Dan made two nights before the murders. So all of this makes sense, and your story makes sense. So one morning she gets a call and she I think I was in the shower. She's very upsetting at what's going on, and she said, the police want to talk to me again. This was March because they were most of Pina. So she said, well, they're coming here. I said, okay. So they came and they met her in the parking lot and I walked down with her and they said you you can't be here, they to you. Yeah, So I walked to the other side of the parking lot. Okay, whatever, and they were talking to her and talking to her forever. I'm thinking, I gotta check out, and I look over and one of them reaches into his pocket and pulls out rubber gloves, and then he reached another public and he's doing a freaking DNA swab in her mouth in the middle of the parking lot. You know, I'm oh, my god, what the hell? So after they left us, what what was that all about? She said, well, there's a box of evidence, and they keep asking me if there's any way my DNA could be in that box, and I told them no. So they asked if they could do a DNA swab that was me thinking they think she has something to do with this. But you had never contacted the authorities. Why why did you feel like you didn't want to I didn't know anything. Well, I told you to burn the body is a big I can't that's not going to be admissible anywhere. There's nothing I can do with him. Yeah, but you should. I don't know. I would have thought you would have let them decide that. I would think that you would want to tell somebody, but you know you didn't want to tell, maybe because you still wanted to date her. Well, is that the truth? Are we getting the truth? I wanted to know. I wanted to know. I wanted to know. You wanted to know before you were absolute and you felt it might take a few more times. Yeah, And look, if I go to the police and say, hey, this girl was drunk and she said this, they're gonna go, wow, that's interesting. What they canna do with it? You just didn't You didn't think it was enough. No, it's it's not even when I when I did tell the police, but I was gonna say, you did at something and tell the police. So let's talk about that. When did that? Because didn't you go to see them in Costa Mesa. They came and met me. Yeah, at the Starbucks across the street from from Medival times. Now did they come to me after they saw you march at at that motel? Yeah, it was much later than that, so they knew you existed and they want to learn more. So what did they ask you? How was that exchange? I told them that that was what I led with because I'm like, you know, she has something to do with it. She at least the second murder, because she knew before the second murder that the first murder had taken place, or else she couldn't have told him to burn the body. They called actually the d A after they met with you and said we've got it now, I mean this, this has got to be the thing that takes us over the top here that we can charge you with murder. And he said no, because you were an X and maybe you had an AX to grind and yeah, so that I didn't think that it's gonna be, he said. She said she had never said such a thing. You know, right, are you're gonna get anywhere with that? But I mean, if all of your other stories are pretty accurate and pan out, why would you make this one up? Right, from everything I gathered from all the interviews I did with people that knew Rachel, they said she had a wild jealous streak. So this is just a theory. But I did speak with Dave Bernhard, who was a neighbor at the Camden martiniques and someone that hung out with Dan and Rachel quite a bit up until the murders, and he did share with me that he cared deeply for Julie. He did have a huge crush on Rachel. He didn't feel like it was necessarily going anywhere, that it might have been, you know, a one sided thing, but he definitely wanted to nail her, just wasn't going anywhere. But Julie he really cared about. He said that really developed from a friendship, like she was a genuine person and he really cared about her. They ended up consummating that relationship two nights before she was and I have to wonder if somehow Dave had a conversation with Rachel about that, because he really did want to have a relationship with Rachel, and I think that might have been a way to make her jealous, and maybe that's how we thought he could get her and Rachel finding out about that right, because Rachel was the kind of person that didn't want any other woman to get any kind of attention, and she wanted Dave's attention, but she wanted to have it under her control on her terms, and so she would do things in front of Dave at his Taco Tuesday party like watch this, Watch this, I'm going to get Daniel to kiss another guy, and I'm going to tell him I'm not going to go home and have sex with him unless you know, and he would do it and actually told she told you that so too. Yeah, And so I'm just wondering if Dave Barnhard thought I'll give her a little bit of her own medicine, and so A four, I'm gonna tell her I have this relationship with Julie. And you know, it's a theory. It might not be the way it really happened, but knowing Rachel, after speaking to people like yourself who knew her firsthand, it just seems like it would be something that would incite a target. And if you're a murdering one, why not to And and Julie was like, I mean, sadly, as her mother said in court. I mean she was a prop or actually was a brother Taka that said that on the Witnes stand, you killed my sister so that she could be a prop in your sick, demented play, you know, and that's the truth. That's really poorly written play. I'm convinced that she helped plan the whole thing at a minimum, probably for kicks, was involved with some of it. But I don't under stand why he doesn't rollover on her, why he doesn't tell this story. I don't get it. I think that the reason for that is that he's protecting his brother Tim Ah. Okay, Tim, Tim's involved, but that's another She went to live with Tim for a while though after the murders, are for about a week at the most, his girlfriend at the time, and that did not make Lisa any happier. For sure. She she did not like Rachel, didn't care for her. And but Tim said to me he never saw anybody light a pipe with you know, for the crystal meth better. I mean he said she was just an old pro. I mean usually if you've never done it before, it kind of involved yes, and he said, not her, Yeah, so that just no, they're in fact, he said to me that if she speaks out and says anything, that if if if he goes down, she's going down, and that you know, told me a lot. Is he facing any charges at all? He got a sweet deal he got he did. He got it because prosecutors were worried that the defense counsel was going to come up with an insanity defense, and so they wanted Tim to say that there was nothing there in his past, that they had this sort of bucolic life and and there was never any issues, mental issues, and and so they wanted to make sure that they won this capital case, and so they were willing to cut him a deal. And and he's, uh, he's laughing all the way. So but he feels like he got away with he got away with it, and now we have to see what she gets away with. And I think that you know, they are that is the reason why he has not said anything against her. I'm I'm pretty well, it seems like a pretty slam dunk case. I know there is no such thing, but she blatantly lied and hopefully they'll, hopefully they can get her for at least that. Stay tuned. Yeah, exactly, if you could sum up in one statement, what you'd like listeners to know about how you feel about Rachel Buffett. I sit here with you and we laugh a lot, because I laugh a lot, that's just my nature, and you're charming and funny. There's really nothing funny about it, Um, and I I also laugh on him. Embarrassed. I'm embarrassed that that I didn't see through it sooner. I'm embarrassed that I had stopped seeing her completely once I even began to think it was possible. UM. So I deal with that by laughing a lot. But it's obviously about as serious as it gets. And I love that you have the relationship that you do with Um Sam's father, and I'm probably with Julie's parents as well. And the last thing the world I would want is for them to hear this and go, what are they're laughing about? It's not funny, and it's not. And I I've met so many people in my life. I have been an actor almost my whole life, and just people of every description, people of every every background, every every everything. There's so many different people. She is the single only person I've ever met that I think and we already talked about my feeling about religion. She is evil. It's like she's an empty vessel. There's no soul, there's no compassion, there's no anything except ego and and a quest. It is a quest. It's a quest to do evil. It would it's amazing to me to manipulate people to be the center of attention, which all actors want to be the center of attention. That's why I'm sitting here with you. I want to be the center of attention. I won't kill somebody for it. I won't steal and laugh about it to someone who doesn't like stealing. I mean, it's she's she's evil. I don't know. That's all I can say. And I'm embara, and I apologize to anyone who would be offended by that. Well, I I feel like I could speak for Steve Hair at this moment. I know he would appreciate what you're saying. He also, though, finds humor in life to survive. I mean his sometimes I feel so guilty when he's making me laugh and I think I shouldn't be laughing, But he said, if you don't laugh, and you don't make me laugh, and then I'm really there's nothing left. Then I'm dead and so I think he feels humor is a panacea for for the pain he lives with on a daily basis. And Daniel Wozniak and if in fact she was involved with these murders, Rachel Buffett and whoever else was involved with these martyrs took away his life, took away the kibi she's life. And poor Raquel Hair says, to this day she prays, she prays for Daniel Wozniac, which is truly extraordinary, but that's that's the woman she is. And so I just want to thank you for all of them to come on today and be so honest and yeah we laugh, but that's okay too. Thank you, thank you. On our next episode of Sleuth, we continue our exclusive interview with Rachel Buffett's former boyfriend, Scott Erett, who had so many colorful memories of his two year relationship with the Disney princess that he called into Sleuth and shared additional bizarre experiences he had with the girl he met at medieval times where he and Rachel both worked. You can't make up what you will soon hear, because reality can be stranger than fiction. If you enjoyed this episode of Sleuth, share it with a friend and be sure to leave a rating view. Follow Sleuth on iHeart Radio, or subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts so that you never miss an episode.
Speaker 1: Please be advised this story contains adult content and graphic language. When she's trapped, it just falls apart. It's just awful. And I said, no, no, you didn't think about what I should have done or what I could have done. You said, you told me to burn the body. Did you think I was Dan? Last night? Welcome to Sleuth. I'm Linda Sawyer. That chilling moment you just heard happened between Rachel Buffett and her then boyfriend Scott Arrett, who spent two years with Rachel. Only months after Dan Wozniak's arrest for murder. In an exclusive interview, Scott sat down with us to talk about his time with Rachel. So I wanted to first sort of recall when we first met. And I remember you live pretty far from here, right almost two hours out in the high desert. And I remember renting my little orange juice canned car, and I think I was driving through what they called the grape Vine or something like that before that. But you're on the fourteen, which is just a windswept high desert. Oh my gosh. All I remember is white knuckles and I'm like, why is this car moving into other lanes? And I'm not asking it to do. Am I going to make it a lie? And then it got there is like this for this New York City girl is like making County Line with those tumbleweeds. It is. I live in Maybury, RFD. That's what it's like. Yeah, it's a very odd place, but I like it. So I'm like, well, you know, I have to talk to Rachel Buffett's ex boyfriend, who who who knows it all? Who heard it all and saw it all? Right? So I said, it's it's gonna be worth it, And eight hours later it was yeah, yeah, was. We had a good time, though, we did. We talked for a long time. We certainly we closed down the coffee shop. I think we opened it and closed it. Right. Yeah. Every once in a while my mouth would drop, but I pull it back out. Yeah, well you made me. I mean I started because I hadn't thought about it in a while, and I start talking about it, and I realized just how bizarre it sounds when you say it out loud and when someone's typing it into their computer. Yeah, when you're just in the middle of it, just all this one thing, But when when you're telling on someone who's who's typing it you're going do I say that? Well, yeah, and then she says, hey, how about come on come on my podcast the Country. Sure, yeah, well but I love what you're doing, so I think it's a good idea, So somebody has to It's incredible to me that the most, the most they can charge you with is accessory after the fact. Well, we have been speaking to quite a few people and you or I've tried to pose the question, you know, is it possible that she didn't know that she was duped, which is what she's saying, and there is just not one Yes, there's like, oh god, no, have you talked to her mother? No? But I've certainly made my pleasantries, but they pretty much, I think at this point try to keep to themselves, probably smarter well, certainly after Dr Phil I think she even said, you know something, because Steve Hair, who's the father of Sam, said to her, I'd appreciate if you'd stopped doing interviews and wait till the trial, because if you're innocent, let's have the justice system decide that. And she said, maybe I have made a mistake coming on the show. You think sort of unraveled. I'd love to know your impressions because you did say you saw her on the show. Um, it was a typical performance. It was the big dough eyes and the Disney Prince's head nods and the how dare you think us of me? And we're talking about two dead people and families that are grieving, and still she managed to make the show all about her, which tells you a lot right there. And she's the victim, not the dead people, not the family the dead people, but she's the victim. And she even referenced that, and I think she felt like she was being gracious when she said, listen, I'm a victim, but I know I come after Julia and probably even the victims families. It's like, oh, you know, you're really figuring where you are on it? How gracious? How how you know? Extraordinary that it's like pure psychotic narcissism. It's right there on display. I know that I'm not the main victim. Sam and Julie are the main victims, and then I think even secondary would be their families. I'm after all that. I realized that, and that's why that's why I didn't want to come out in the limelight before two and a half years ago. I tried to keep it to myself and tried to work through it and try and do my own little hillieling process or whatever. Let's talk about the church in Christianity and how it plays such a part in this in the family, in the Buffett family, and certainly you know firsthand. I mean, I think one of our interviews, Daniel Hulkyard, who was a friend of Dan Wozniak, said that she hides behind her faith. Would you agree with that statement. She didn't just hide behind it, she uses it. It's it's it's brilliant. I saw a meme the other day that made me think of her, and it says something about never trust someone who can just confess their crimes to their imaginary friend once a week. And I thought, there you go, you know, I mean, the whole story with her father and the hookers and the bankrupting the family and then getting angry with her mother because she was hurt by it. I'm telling her, I've been forgiven. You need to get over it. Did he really say that in your presence? No? No, no, Rachel told me about it. Her mother told me about it. But that's how they feel. Once once got forgives you, you're good to go. In fact, I think you even said to me when we met that Monday through Saturday, do whatever you want, but as long as you ask for forgiveness on Sunday. Well I think I told you. I think she sees the Ten Commandments as a bucket list, and she's getting through it really well. I mean, you know, she's crossing him off that list one at a time, and it's okay because on Sunday goes sorry and then you can start all over again. I've asked this of people that you know, are they're born again or really Christianity is is a you know, certainly a backbone of their livelihood. And I'm like this whole forgiveness stuff like God forgives you, God forgives everyone on death row and every so you could just do whatever you want and then just say God forgive me. And the person said to me, but you have to mean it. And I think if you're psychotic enough, you can do it, confess it and mean it and then do it again. I mean, why not you know, um that long before anybody was murdered, she, you know, a thief like nobody's business for for fun, just steal things for fun, And how you can be the alter religious person and think it's fun to see how much crap you can walk out of Walmart with stuffed in your clothing is bizarre to me. I know. I've had interviews with several of her friends that she literally stole on pretty much a daily basis. I mean, whether it was food, alcohol, clothes, furniture in their house. I mean one of the gals who was supposed to be in her wedding party said she even stole her bridesmaid's dresses. In her wedding dress, I'm like, how do you do that? I mean, she's a tiny thing. Where did she fit it? I don't know. She's very ingenious. I was at Walmart with her one time and she told me she was going to steal some makeup and I said, no, no, not not, not while I'm here. You can do whatever you want her, but if you need makeup, I'll buy it for you. I'll buy it. Well, no, I don't need it, It's okay. So we get up to the checkout stand and she says, oh, I forgot something, and I thought, oh no, and she runs back to the makeup section, but she came back with this little thing of like perfumer, nailpolo something something in an in a box and so I took it out of her hand and put it on the thing and I'm paid for it, you know. And we got into the car and she started just like giggling minightly. I'm like what. And she opened the box and said, this is a box for a five dollar one and I put this twenty one in the box. And she was so proud of herself. Wow. And I said, I was going to pay for it. What difference does it mean? But it was it was the thrill of doing it. It's the thrill. It's the adventure of violating the Ten commandments. I swear your bucket list, it's her bucket list. One of uh, one of her friends, one of their mutual friends that they had met recently, a gentleman by the name of Chris Williams, who was the person that loaned them the money to stave off the eviction week of the murders. And he's got a story himself. But uh, he met with them the night before. They invited him over it for like barbecuing mineral sausages whatever, and he said that he felt as if there was this feeling of We've got to know what the next level of challenge in our lives feels like. We need to know what it feels like to to maybe what it feels like to murder someone. And the reason he said that was he said that Dan had recited on the deck. Uh this, I don't know if you know this movie, The Talented Mr. Ripley. Anyway, it's a it's based on a Patricia Highsmith book who sort of was the equivalent of Stephen King in Europe, and she does all these kind of creepy stories and and the lead in the movie, The Talented Mr. Ripley was played by Matt Damon and that was Dan's favorite movie role. And in front of Chris Williams, Dan starts reciting seeing as the character of Tom Ripley, who steals people's identities and then when they figure out who he is, he kills them. So there's Daniel reciting, you know, word for word scenes as if he's that Matt Damon character, and then he sings this song, this beautiful Aria, word for word, and literally Chris said, I was chilled to the bone because at that moment, sam Hair leans over his deck and he said, hey, you know, not get off down there. You guys having some fun, and and Daniel's like, come on down, Sam, and it's like, no, I'm going to go to bed, but I'll see in the morning. And he goes, Okay, you know, see you tomorrow. Thanks for helping me, Like, because Sam, that was the day that Sam he had arranged for tomorrow was the go help him move in the in the theater, and that was the day Dan murdered Sam. Yeah, so he's like a sorrow how And honestly, when that whole scene is is you know, told to me, I got chills because right, I'm mean life imitating art, Like it's just so bizarre. And and that's person said to me, I just got the feeling like they wanted to know. They needed to know the next level of crazy. They needed to know what it felt like to kill someone, you know. So it sort of falls in line with a lot of what you told me about her. Are your experiences with her? That's really creepy? Um, there is I think there's a there's a feeling of superiority. Um because well, first of all, you know, God's on her side, so how can you beat that? That's pretty perfect by it. So and there's that feeling of she loves to manipulate and see what she can get people to do that's outside their comfort zone. And so I think she generally, um in partners, picks people that she thinks she's going to be able to manipulate like that. She made a mistake with me. It didn't work. But and if you work for your five other wives, thank you, thank you. Let's just bring that up. Why don't we? No, it didn't because I'm a little strong world. Um, but the manipulation thing, she would play weird manipulation games, weird weird, weird stuff. I remember. I remember going to the movies once and it was like fifteen minutes before we even so we bought our tickets and we're sitting on these stairs out of the movie theater and all of a sudden, I don't know where, she says to me, I've and she would say this stuff with a straight face, and that she would she would look at you with and say, I've decided that my walk with Jesus isn't strong enough, and so we need to stop having sex because it's against my religion. So at that I didn't know that there was a religion that was against sex. Well, you know, we weren't married, so it was it was a horrible sin. I was getting laid on a regular basis by someone half my age, so I might die in between. There's a risk everything. I can't believe tell you these things. Okay, this is amateur psychology, and who knows. But she was so controlled growing up. I've never heard of people editing the bad parts out of Disney cartoons. But her parents wouldn't let them wauch a movie unless they had gone through and taken out anything they didn't like in like Bambi. I was just gonna say, like baby taking a shower. I don't know they would take out anything with it. So she and she wasn't not to go to school, and she wasn't how to play with the kids in the neighborhood, and she wasn't, you know, because they weren't good Christians, so I think in her only book. So then she decided to go to college, and I think her parents weren't very fond of this idea, but she wanted to do it. So she went to the local community college, and all of a sudden, the world opened up and she realized, oh my god, I'm pretty, I can be sexy, I can hold my liquor and I can and she just think she should power. Yeah, absolutely absolutely, Guys, you're panting and looking at her, and she Okay, I've got this power, and she learned to use it. And when she jumped, she jumped. I mean that's seriously, That's when the ten Commands became, not not the ten Commandments, but the bucket list that was, I can get away with anything. Her friends at school at college said that she started to smoke because she felt like because she was homeschooled, she really didn't know how she could relate to other people in a social setting, and so she thought that made her look cool, and the same thing with the drugs, like I'm going to be cool now because I want everybody like me, or at least feel like I belong. And part of that, I think is, you know, the isolation of homeschooling and and what that does to your own psyche. You know, we really haven't had the chance to, you know, exchange and be a part of a regular day life of a kid. Yeah, or find out who you are and what you what you like and don't like because the only thing you have is what's spoon fed to you by you're slightly insane parents. I believe that you told me a story that she shared with you about this a gay student at the college. Tell us, tell tell us about it. I don't know a lot about it. I know she she gets a great kick and a giggle out of the fact that there was this gay kid and she talked to him into having sex with her so that she could show me wasn't gay, or so that she could just so that she could do it again. Manipulation. I don't know. Maybe if I can get this gay kid to have sex with me, that's an accomplishment, and she did. There's more to the story. I heard from her boyfriend at the time in college where she came back, that she took him. She took him side of the rehearsal space they were in a in a show together, and brought him back to I guess the dorm apartment whatever. And they did, in fact have got conjugal visit, but it didn't go so well. And supposedly she came back to set and ridiculed him in front of the cast to the point where he left the school. That would make sense. Yeah, I mean, well, he's gay and that's she's religious. That's wrong, you know, well because God, because it's murder, okay, but being gay that it's ungodly. Yeah, you know, I have to wonder when you have a family that's so structured and the whole idea of faith and leading the good life of a Christian is just permeates their their everyday existence. Right. But yet she finds out that the reason why they're not well off and quite frankly, always struggling for money is because the father's spending his paychecks on prostitutes and gambling. That's got to make you hate your father, or hate man, or or hate the idea of being poor because of a man. Do you feel like that in some way had some bearing on some of her behavior and choice. I think that rose her father up a few notches in her eyes, really, how so, because she has no respect for anybody or anything normal. So I think her father doing that made her go, cool, look what he's doing, because she thinks her mom's a moron, Because her mother just is nothing but Jesus all day long. I mean, there's posted notes all over the house, and the Jesus pillows and Jesus did this and pictures on the wall, and her dad said, enough of that, I'm going to go have fun. And I think she liked that. I think she respects. So the rebellious act is what she approved of. Yeah, yeah that. Yeah. Now didn't he at one point actually have an extra marital affair that Marian found out that tell us about How did you learn about that? Um? She told me about it, and she said that her mother found notes in the glove box or someplace something like that, and but she she was never angry with him. She wasn't like, I can't believe he would do something like that. She were just talking about that's what my dad did. Not my mother is really upset. Uh, let's go steal something, you know. It was just a matter of fact. Yeah, I didn't really bother her. So if it didn't have to do with her, it didn't bother her. How did you first meet Rachel Buffett Um? I was working at Medieval Times and uh, she came to work at Medival Times as a princess um and I had been dating one of the other princesses and uh that was falling apart, and then Rachel came worked this. So I called her one night and said, do you want to get together and have coffee or something? And she said she was out with her brother or her brothers, I don't forget what, but when they get back. Sure. So she met me at a coffee shop, um, down here in Orange County because it was a long drive home for me, so I would often stay down here. And we sat there talking forever, and I remember we were talking about acting. We were talking about medival time, so what it was our place it is? And we were talking about uh, she had worked for Disney, what it was our place that was? And just as we were getting ready to part for the evening, she says to me, oh, by the way, just you should know that if you're going to become friends with me that, um, you may be investigated by the FBI and and and polices, police forces and things like this. And I said, well, why is that? She's well, I had something happened, I said, what did you do, sud No, I didn't do anything, but my ex fiance did something and I don't I don't want to talk about it, but just so you know that that could happen, I said, okay. So good night. We laughed. So let me started seeing each other more, and I kept asking, what what is it? What? What did he does? The drug dealer? No, no, no, no, what what what does it? And finally didn't know. I had no idea. And finally with that, I said, so, come on about your experiency. What is he like? An AX murder or what? And her face her and a D shades have read and she said, we need to talk, and I okay, and I'm thinking, oh my god, he's an AX murder. So he met for dinner. She told me the whole her version of the whole story, and my job was on the ground, I thought, and it works. I thought, oh, your poor thing, Oh my god, that that she was engaged to be married to this guy, and that nothing he was leading a complete double life, and everything he said was a lie, and she believed it all because she was madly in love with him. And then all of us sudden he had murdered her friends and she couldn't believe. And I'm thinking, oh my god, this is terrible. That lasted for a while, and the more we talked and the more I learned, the more I realized that story isn't quite the way it happened. There's a little more to it than that. And oh my god, I think you killed people. Pardon me, you know, but it happens. So because honestly, she is can be pretty good at that Disney princess, big blue eyed, looking up at you with all the innocence in the world. For a while, I think in passing it works. But when you start to see the pattern and you start to put together with all the other stuff, and you go, oh, this is and it works for like a short stint, a sound bite that if you're on anything longer, like a Dr Phil show. Eventually, when she had her press conference after when she was arrested November, when she was finally released and they had a little press conference in front of the jail and and uh, you know, she was batting away there and just you know, oh my gosh, I'm innocent. And Noah was there, you know, caressing her. And that's as we'll talk about that in a minute. But that evening she was telling friends I've interviewed those friends and they and that she said to instead of being like just for Loren that you know, you're about to marry this psychotic right, instead she's telling all her friends. Do you hear them? They're calling me an actress? Oh my god. Yeah, that's was her overwriting statement about all of the press that she was getting from that day because now she's famous, right wow. And even when she was on Dr Phil, he made some comment about you know that sounds of rehearse. Now you are an actress, so we have to be aware of that, and you might be a very good actress that she recoiled like in this like kitten like you know, posture, just smiling ear to ear like That's all we're talking about here, right, is that that you could be a good actress. You know, That's that's really not the that's not the headline, right, you know, but you're talking about her, so it's good. As long as you're talking about her, it's all good. It's all wonderful. So after you heard that story or what you thought was the real story, you you felt for her. Yeah, I mean she was a victim in all this, you know, and tragic and horrible. Does someone so young and pretty and cute and just innocent and sweet would be subjected to this horrible murdering? I mean I bought it, and I think I'm a pretty shrewd guy, but I'm not sure I was thinking properly. So I bought it. I thought, wow, so you were going to, yeah, be her protector and sure that you know, there's a there's a whole wonderful world out there, come out, ride horses, have a good time. Yeah. So it's just slowly. It was started with the stealing, and started with the drinking, and then the stealing stuff, and then the pride in in the strangest things. At one point we were just casually dating. At this point, she got all excited because she gets a free trip to Vegas. I said, how are you getting a free trip to Vegas? And there was some guy was gonna take her to Vegas. Yeah yeah, And I said, well that's not quite free. I don't think he's taken it there for free. Well, you know, we'll see what happens. I don't have to do anything. So she goes to and we're texting and she took her friend along on her friend is Kelly is just another bizarre Is that Kelly Fleming? I don't know her real name, like Kerosene Kelly. I think that's Kelly Fleming And she's man, what um, just a huge enabler, huge enabler and has some strange she she would take her to lesbian clubs. Yeah, and Rachel insisted, well, she's not gay. I said, why, why why would she be taking you to lesbian clubs? Well, just I mean to show off. So that's why it didn't make any sense. And now I'm going to think, well, maybe she's not the sweet and maybe she's just remarkably stupid. And then I slowly realized, no, she's not stupid either. She liked being shown on because it was all about her. So her friend, who insists to her, look, I am not gay. I just want to take you to this club and show you off as my girlfriend will pretend it's like the trophy girl, the trophy wife. Yeah, I don't know. It was the most bizarre. So she takes her with her to Vegas. I don't think this guy thinks he's got it made. Now he's gonna go home. Probably did. So we're taking and she texted something to me about, well, you know, I had to thank him last night. What what are you a prostitute? This is the most bizarre thing. So she comes back and she tells me I've been in tears for two days. I can't believe you would think that of me. I said, wait a minute. You went to Vegas with some guy, you said, kind of creep you out, but you had sex with him in exchange for being taken to Vegas. And you're upset that someone would consider that prostitution. Are you serious? So there's a preamble to that story. Okay, well I'd love to know the preamble to that story. James Mulligan told me that, you know, he's a fantastic artist. I mean, truly does all this Disney art. And and I guess one of his clients was a church, a local church, and he they asked him to do the like the Nativity scene in one of the walls on the on the church. And so he's, you know, painting the whole scene, the whole Nativity, Baby Jesus and all. And and she walks in with a fifth of vodka. And she walks down the aisle and what heads over to him? And he said, before he knew it, there she was down on him doing a little a little number that he said, I did color outside of the lines. At that point, you know, I'm just the juxtaposition of this, you know, very religious scene, right, one of the most religious scenes. And there she is doing what she's doing. I said, oh my gosh, Well the dichotomy is he's not lost, it's okay. She She's at my place one night and she wakes up. It's probably two or three in the morning, and she says, I feel an evil presence. And by that time I was starting to think maybe it's you. So I feel an evil presence. I said, I'm sorry. What would she like to do about it? And she said, do you mind how I put on some praise music? And I said, I think I'm fresh out of praise music. I don't think I am. She said, well, I'm getting on your computer. I said, go ahead, whatever, you go ahead. She gets up and she goes to my laptop and she somehow hooks up the thing and next thing I know, you know, the laptops. Our God is an awesome God, he reads, and she climbs back in bed and goes down. I mean, we have sex to our God is an awesome God. I guess that's what she needs. That's it gets her going. My word, nothing makes you hot like Jesus. I don't know, it's just bizarre. It's bizarre. Didn't you tell me? Also you had to cover up? Oh yeah, that was another she said. And she just comes out to this stuff out of nowhere. She says to me, I can't come out to your home anymore. At this one, she was coming out very regularly, and I said, hey, why not? She said, well, you have dragons all over the place, and I like medieval stuff, so I've got different like ceramic and the resident little dragon sculpture of things. You know, well, she said, I said, well, what what does that have to do anything? She said, well, they represent Satan. Know, they represent dragons. What are you talking about? She said, well, dragon dragons are often used to represent Satan because they're serpent like. And said, okay, well these don't these represent medieval you know, n slang dragons that it's just dragons. It's it's okay, But no, I can't come out there anymore. I said, okay. So I had some little dragons coming and some of these little swords. So I put the little swords by the little dragon. Said there, I've killed all the dragons. Can you come out now? And she says, no, you have to. You have to take them on down I said, well, I'm not gonna take them down. So that's that's the end of that. And about two days later she said, are you going to take me home after the show? I said, they're dragons. There'll be dragons out there, and she said it's okay. I said, okay, good bizarre bizarre stuff and everything relates back to God, to Jesus, to religion, to the whole upbringing that she straight so far from ambassardized so much, but she she hangs onto it. Well, she pulls it back in when she needs it, right, yeah, oh yeah, well yeah. She her current boyfriend worked with us at the castle. All three of us worked at medival times, and he's a pastor son, and they would quote scripture to each other and they would talk about Billy Elliot. He shows up in court a lot. He shows up with like scriptures, needle pointed in his shirt. Yeah, well, you know he's a good Christian, he said. He has some interesting tattoos. Yeah, he's got some lovely and now I'm not often alone with men when they're naked, but um, at medival times, everyone kind of gets dressed in the same area. He's got some lovely nipple piercings and uh and his crotch reads raw Dog. Editor's note. I had no idea what raw Dog meant, but my editor sure did. Well, it's locker room talk. It's a guy who has sex without a condom. Really, yeah, that's it. So I mean, but it's I think it says raw dog. For Jesus, No, I'm just kidding. It doesn't say that. So there was a point in time in her life where she was heavily involved in drugs, and it was certainly during the times of the murder and soon after the murders that she uh, you know, she was getting getting crystal meth and ecstasy from all of her her friends. And I don't know if she shared that with you or not, but that was definitely a part of their life. Yeah, she talked about it. Yeah, she talked about the numb feeling and how much she liked the numb feeling. And and I remember that stuck in my because she was talking about she was almost intimating that you could do anything while you're feeling like that because you don't have any feelings of responsibility or any any guilt, any anything. And I'm thinking, was that when you planned this stuff then did it all make sense while you were that messed up? You know, I don't know because I don't understand, right, I don't get it. But I mean, I've been told by people. I've I've never done these drugs either, but I've been told by people when you are on crystal meth, you could murder your own grandmother. You know, I mean that you have you have no soul anymore. You just don't care, Like you said that, there's just no remorse, there's no nothing, there's no your numb and and what's amazing to me is as numb as she is in everyday life, I can't imagine how empty she would be with some chemical help. I mean, that's really scary, it really is. That's a frightening thing, you know. You I think you've said to me before something about her eyes. There's nothing there. I honestly, I the last the last few months of dating were more like research because I thought I should write a screenplay about this, and I was gonna call it empty because she is soulless. You can look at it and there's nothing there. They might light up if you're talking about something she's excited about at the moment that about her. But for the most part, they're they're empty. There's nothing there, and that's normal. That's when she's sober so and you can see it. You can see it in the interviews. You know what you can see in a Disney cartoon. Obviously, there's nothing there. It's it's a one dimensional there. It is. That's what they look like. And it fools you for a minute because it looks like a Disney cartoon. But look at a closer realized this is a live, actual human being and it looks like a one dimensional Disney cartoon. And she was a she was she was a Disney princess. She had sex with Daniel in the shell, know aerial shell at Disneyland. She was very proud of that, very proud of that. And she also stole from there. She was bad about that because there's such security there, but somehow she managed. That's what her boyfriend at the time, Kyle Rubelle, was saying that. You know, he said the same thing, I'll pay for it, don't steal it. And yet she went off with a cousin of hers and and came back all giggly because she was so proud of herself. Yeah, yeah, that's quite the accomplishment. Amazing, right, Yeah, totally. She also has an interesting relationship with her brother Noah. That's one way to put it. Yeah, it's a sick relationship. It really is. Tell us why you think so? Um, God, several several things. One of them is the the codependency when it comes to drinking. And finally, at one point I told her, look, I'm not ever going to meet you in a bar again. This is never gonna happen again, so I'm not doing it. So that's it. And one night I get out of work. She wasn't working as a princess that night, I was working at the castle. I got out and there are all these messages from her, please come to be. My brother's in trouble. I need help. So I called her and said where are you? When she named the bar and I said, no, I told you I'm not coming to the bar. So I don't know what to do. He's crazy. I said, I'll come get you out of the bar, but I'm not hanging around, and she said okay. So I went over there and there she sits with Noah and he's crying and she's crying and they're both just sloppy drunk, and I said, okay, well, let's go and we'll talk about it. So what is this? So we got I get him out to my car and I said, what is going on? Well, Noah's girlfriend had gotten pregnant. So he's trying to decide whether a really sharp kick in the stomach we'll take care of it, or if he needs to actually push her down some stairs. Or Rachel's great idea, which is she can call I think it was Kelly and get a whole box of the Morning After pills and then grind those up and put it in her food and oh dear on that stuff, and surely that would cause her to spontaneously aboard. So and I said, well, okay, this whole thing is nuts. I mean, where would you even get that? Rachel's Kelly, and she brought him over. Did you have them now? Yes? And I said no, have you even talked to her yet? Well, she called me and she said she was pregny. I said, but have you talked her about what she wants to do? Maybe she doesn't want to go through with the pregnancy. Maybe it's all okay, maybe it's shouldn't you find that out first? And Rachel's just well, he's really upset and he just found out about this, and I said, well, don't humor him. For christ sake, you said about killing somebody. What is wrong with you? So I took him home and took her back to my place and said, this is nuts. This is absolutely nuts. And the next day the girl and Noah talked and she said, you know, I don't want to have a baby, and he said, okay, well we'll take care of it. That that was it. But he's getting ready to kill her. What the he? How is that a plan? Even? How was that even planed? B? I don't know plan B. That's very good. I saw what she did there. So and then shortly after so this got me talking about Noah more because now I'm I'm just fanded. And then she starts, you go deep, well, so to speak, and she starts talking about how small Noah's penis is. And after the third or fourth reference, I said, how do you know? And she said, I quote, somebody's got to teach him what to do with it. Did you infer that she had sex with her brother from that statement? Yeah? Pretty strongly? Yeah? Yeah? And did she sort of give you that indication that she did have sex. What was she teaching him? I think so, yeah, because who better than her? She's brilliant. She really said that, That's what she said. Then she refused to discuss it anymore. So did you follow up with are you telling me that you've had oh? Yeah, yeah, and she said, I don't want I'm not going to talk about this. I'm not going to talk about this, which was her standard m O, which is to drop the bomb and then say I'm not going to talk about this. In every instance, when you saw Noah and Rachel together, did you get the feeling like it was beyond a normal brother sister relationships? Yeah? And I asked her about it, um and she said, well, you you don't know, you don't have a sister. I said, well, no, I don't, but I mean it's you know, it's kind of weird. No, it's not. It's perfectly normal. What did you think of their relationship on Dr Phil? It was creepy. What was really creepy to me is why he was wearing a black knit hat on Dr Phil. I'd never seen that before. I didn't see him a lot, but I saw him occasionally went to the wine bar or whatever it is that he had a few times, and I saw him at his house and you know, with the family though. The whole thing about the man with the black hat, I know, and that was the basis for one of Rachel's felony charges. This man in a black hat that she repeated as the last person to be with Sam and he was made up right, and he chooses to go on Dr Phil wearing a weird knit black hat. It was a very strange thing. I don't know if he was going to try to it looked to me he was going to try to set up some alibi thing where she was said, you know what I saw. No, that's what made me think of it. No, always where is this black hat? That's how bizarre and calculated, but stupidly calculating. I mean, if you look at the murders, the plot, the plan, the conspiracy is so stupid. It's so stupid that only they could have planned it. I firmly believed she helped plan that. So you're at this point, are you sed an item? Are you still together? That was really late and at that point I'm really trying to find out what in the hell did she murder these people? I'm thinking, maybe he's completely innocent, and she did it. I know, I'm going, what the hell she's plotting with her brother. She's her brother is talking about maybe kicking her in the stomach, throwing her down some stairs, that causing her board. She's talking about killing her. So I thought, well, okay, did at one point you feel like you were in crazy town? Oh yeah, it was definitely crazy town toward the end, definitely crazy town. It was. It was kind of a kick, it was kind of I'm just fast. Yeah, I want to know now. But the final straw was driving her home drunk and she's sleeping in my lap because I said she likes to cuddle Chris like a little kitten, you know, which is very sweet. So we're driving home after singing karaoke and having a good time up until you know, she's incoherent and she snuggles up on my lap and I'm really thinking, this is, this has gotten just nuts. This probably should end soon. This is I'm not sure this is worth it. Even even even the old man with the pretty young thing is going just don't think it's worth it anymore. And she starts mumbling in her sleep. So I'm driving and I said, what did you say? And she reaches up with a fist and smacks me really hard in the chest and says, I told you to burn the body. And I just kept drying, what do you? What the hell? So little later, what did you say? Nothing? She's out? How many times did she say it? Just once? And then she was out. So we got home and the next morning I said, do you know what you said to me last night? But the next morning you're not right away right, You're cooking this elaborate breakfast yea, which I found quite fascinating, like French sometimes breakfast, I know, but it was like French eggs and yeah, and some hash browns and some sliced avocado. I mean talking about fresh ruttle Stephen King moment. Well, I wanted her to be comfortable because you knew you were going. Oh, I have to ask about this. I think you even said to me you knew that was going to be the last breakfast. This is it. It's kind of like the last supper, example is the last breakfast. And and I said, do you know what you said last night? And we're sitting out I have this little patio area outside. I don't smoking the smoke out there. You know. Let's you were having a little outside, finished the breakfast, some coffee. Do you know what you said to me listening? So this is now outside, Yeah, in like a cabata Yeah where that? Yeah? Okay? And she said no, what And I said, well, you hit me and you said I told you to burn the body. And she said, I did not say that. I said, yeah you did. No, I said you should have burned the body. I'm thinking, oh, you you know that. You said something in your sleep first. It's so bad. I know, it's so bad. When she's trapped, it just falls apart. It's just awful. And I said, no, no, you didn't say about what I should have done or what I could have done. You said you told me to burn the body. Did you think I was damn last night? I don't want to talk about it. That's it. That's what you can't talk about anymore. And it really just ended there. It certainly sounds that this outbursts that you're telling us about Scott was in fact Rachel thinking she was instructing Dan what to do with Sam's body, because, after all, Dan left Sam's lifeless body in the theater attic and for her to make that comment to you. Scott tells me that perhaps she and Dan spoke about burning the body because maybe Dan told her about the incinerator that was located in a building behind the theater, right, And the theater was located on a military base, and the building behind the theater was in fact a military hospital, and oftentimes are brave soldiers didn't come back in one piece, and their body parts were sent to the morgue and in fact incinerated. And there was this incinerator that Jeff Hathcock, who was the owner of the theater at Liberty Theater at the time, did show Dan this. He Dan was always fascinated with the macabre, and and I think it was Halloween when he gave him a tour of the morgue and pointed out the incinerator. So they obviously had this conversation. Because the idea of suggesting to burn the body makes me feel like she knew she knew about the incinerator. She went to visit the theater many times, but certainly the one visit that stands out to me is the visit that she and Dan made two nights before the murders. So all of this makes sense, and your story makes sense. So one morning she gets a call and she I think I was in the shower. She's very upsetting at what's going on, and she said, the police want to talk to me again. This was March because they were most of Pina. So she said, well, they're coming here. I said, okay. So they came and they met her in the parking lot and I walked down with her and they said you you can't be here, they to you. Yeah, So I walked to the other side of the parking lot. Okay, whatever, and they were talking to her and talking to her forever. I'm thinking, I gotta check out, and I look over and one of them reaches into his pocket and pulls out rubber gloves, and then he reached another public and he's doing a freaking DNA swab in her mouth in the middle of the parking lot. You know, I'm oh, my god, what the hell? So after they left us, what what was that all about? She said, well, there's a box of evidence, and they keep asking me if there's any way my DNA could be in that box, and I told them no. So they asked if they could do a DNA swab that was me thinking they think she has something to do with this. But you had never contacted the authorities. Why why did you feel like you didn't want to I didn't know anything. Well, I told you to burn the body is a big I can't that's not going to be admissible anywhere. There's nothing I can do with him. Yeah, but you should. I don't know. I would have thought you would have let them decide that. I would think that you would want to tell somebody, but you know you didn't want to tell, maybe because you still wanted to date her. Well, is that the truth? Are we getting the truth? I wanted to know. I wanted to know. I wanted to know. You wanted to know before you were absolute and you felt it might take a few more times. Yeah, And look, if I go to the police and say, hey, this girl was drunk and she said this, they're gonna go, wow, that's interesting. What they canna do with it? You just didn't You didn't think it was enough. No, it's it's not even when I when I did tell the police, but I was gonna say, you did at something and tell the police. So let's talk about that. When did that? Because didn't you go to see them in Costa Mesa. They came and met me. Yeah, at the Starbucks across the street from from Medival times. Now did they come to me after they saw you march at at that motel? Yeah, it was much later than that, so they knew you existed and they want to learn more. So what did they ask you? How was that exchange? I told them that that was what I led with because I'm like, you know, she has something to do with it. She at least the second murder, because she knew before the second murder that the first murder had taken place, or else she couldn't have told him to burn the body. They called actually the d A after they met with you and said we've got it now, I mean this, this has got to be the thing that takes us over the top here that we can charge you with murder. And he said no, because you were an X and maybe you had an AX to grind and yeah, so that I didn't think that it's gonna be, he said. She said she had never said such a thing. You know, right, are you're gonna get anywhere with that? But I mean, if all of your other stories are pretty accurate and pan out, why would you make this one up? Right, from everything I gathered from all the interviews I did with people that knew Rachel, they said she had a wild jealous streak. So this is just a theory. But I did speak with Dave Bernhard, who was a neighbor at the Camden martiniques and someone that hung out with Dan and Rachel quite a bit up until the murders, and he did share with me that he cared deeply for Julie. He did have a huge crush on Rachel. He didn't feel like it was necessarily going anywhere, that it might have been, you know, a one sided thing, but he definitely wanted to nail her, just wasn't going anywhere. But Julie he really cared about. He said that really developed from a friendship, like she was a genuine person and he really cared about her. They ended up consummating that relationship two nights before she was and I have to wonder if somehow Dave had a conversation with Rachel about that, because he really did want to have a relationship with Rachel, and I think that might have been a way to make her jealous, and maybe that's how we thought he could get her and Rachel finding out about that right, because Rachel was the kind of person that didn't want any other woman to get any kind of attention, and she wanted Dave's attention, but she wanted to have it under her control on her terms, and so she would do things in front of Dave at his Taco Tuesday party like watch this, Watch this, I'm going to get Daniel to kiss another guy, and I'm going to tell him I'm not going to go home and have sex with him unless you know, and he would do it and actually told she told you that so too. Yeah, And so I'm just wondering if Dave Barnhard thought I'll give her a little bit of her own medicine, and so A four, I'm gonna tell her I have this relationship with Julie. And you know, it's a theory. It might not be the way it really happened, but knowing Rachel, after speaking to people like yourself who knew her firsthand, it just seems like it would be something that would incite a target. And if you're a murdering one, why not to And and Julie was like, I mean, sadly, as her mother said in court. I mean she was a prop or actually was a brother Taka that said that on the Witnes stand, you killed my sister so that she could be a prop in your sick, demented play, you know, and that's the truth. That's really poorly written play. I'm convinced that she helped plan the whole thing at a minimum, probably for kicks, was involved with some of it. But I don't under stand why he doesn't rollover on her, why he doesn't tell this story. I don't get it. I think that the reason for that is that he's protecting his brother Tim Ah. Okay, Tim, Tim's involved, but that's another She went to live with Tim for a while though after the murders, are for about a week at the most, his girlfriend at the time, and that did not make Lisa any happier. For sure. She she did not like Rachel, didn't care for her. And but Tim said to me he never saw anybody light a pipe with you know, for the crystal meth better. I mean he said she was just an old pro. I mean usually if you've never done it before, it kind of involved yes, and he said, not her, Yeah, so that just no, they're in fact, he said to me that if she speaks out and says anything, that if if if he goes down, she's going down, and that you know, told me a lot. Is he facing any charges at all? He got a sweet deal he got he did. He got it because prosecutors were worried that the defense counsel was going to come up with an insanity defense, and so they wanted Tim to say that there was nothing there in his past, that they had this sort of bucolic life and and there was never any issues, mental issues, and and so they wanted to make sure that they won this capital case, and so they were willing to cut him a deal. And and he's, uh, he's laughing all the way. So but he feels like he got away with he got away with it, and now we have to see what she gets away with. And I think that you know, they are that is the reason why he has not said anything against her. I'm I'm pretty well, it seems like a pretty slam dunk case. I know there is no such thing, but she blatantly lied and hopefully they'll, hopefully they can get her for at least that. Stay tuned. Yeah, exactly, if you could sum up in one statement, what you'd like listeners to know about how you feel about Rachel Buffett. I sit here with you and we laugh a lot, because I laugh a lot, that's just my nature, and you're charming and funny. There's really nothing funny about it, Um, and I I also laugh on him. Embarrassed. I'm embarrassed that that I didn't see through it sooner. I'm embarrassed that I had stopped seeing her completely once I even began to think it was possible. UM. So I deal with that by laughing a lot. But it's obviously about as serious as it gets. And I love that you have the relationship that you do with Um Sam's father, and I'm probably with Julie's parents as well. And the last thing the world I would want is for them to hear this and go, what are they're laughing about? It's not funny, and it's not. And I I've met so many people in my life. I have been an actor almost my whole life, and just people of every description, people of every every background, every every everything. There's so many different people. She is the single only person I've ever met that I think and we already talked about my feeling about religion. She is evil. It's like she's an empty vessel. There's no soul, there's no compassion, there's no anything except ego and and a quest. It is a quest. It's a quest to do evil. It would it's amazing to me to manipulate people to be the center of attention, which all actors want to be the center of attention. That's why I'm sitting here with you. I want to be the center of attention. I won't kill somebody for it. I won't steal and laugh about it to someone who doesn't like stealing. I mean, it's she's she's evil. I don't know. That's all I can say. And I'm embara, and I apologize to anyone who would be offended by that. Well, I I feel like I could speak for Steve Hair at this moment. I know he would appreciate what you're saying. He also, though, finds humor in life to survive. I mean his sometimes I feel so guilty when he's making me laugh and I think I shouldn't be laughing, But he said, if you don't laugh, and you don't make me laugh, and then I'm really there's nothing left. Then I'm dead and so I think he feels humor is a panacea for for the pain he lives with on a daily basis. And Daniel Wozniak and if in fact she was involved with these murders, Rachel Buffett and whoever else was involved with these martyrs took away his life, took away the kibi she's life. And poor Raquel Hair says, to this day she prays, she prays for Daniel Wozniac, which is truly extraordinary, but that's that's the woman she is. And so I just want to thank you for all of them to come on today and be so honest and yeah we laugh, but that's okay too. Thank you, thank you. On our next episode of Sleuth, we continue our exclusive interview with Rachel Buffett's former boyfriend, Scott Erett, who had so many colorful memories of his two year relationship with the Disney princess that he called into Sleuth and shared additional bizarre experiences he had with the girl he met at medieval times where he and Rachel both worked. You can't make up what you will soon hear, because reality can be stranger than fiction. If you enjoyed this episode of Sleuth, share it with a friend and be sure to leave a rating view. Follow Sleuth on iHeart Radio, or subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts so that you never miss an episode.
