00:00:00
Speaker 1: Why didn't you run? Why didn't you grab those kids and fucking just get out of there?
00:00:05
Speaker 2: Ava has been going around school telling people that we're going to Thailand for her birthday.
00:00:10
Speaker 1: We're going for my 40th birthday. She is a queen.
00:00:14
Speaker 2: I know we have history, writes Jenna Hocking, but calling yourself Mrs Burgess after Sam remarried just isn't a good look.
00:00:21
Speaker 1: We don't have history, but coming from my name, don't get that close to my children. Yeah. End you. And you thought we'd never talk about it. Well, here we are.
00:00:39
Speaker 2: This is Overshare. We're keeping it between us. Was never really an option.
00:00:43
Speaker 1: I was like, I really wondered how that intro to every episode would work. Yeah. That has never been more real. Right. Than this week. Oh, I know.
00:00:52
Speaker 2: I know. I definitely feel like I overshared last week.
00:00:56
Speaker 1: I feel like, I think our look today, you're in this beautiful, comfy, warm hoodie, legs crossed. You know, like it feels like when I used to get my first period when I was younger and you would go to your friend's house, you'd sit on the couch and I'd give you like a hot water bottle and give you cuddles and chocolate and watch a movie. Yes.
00:01:15
Speaker 2: Oh my God. Can we just do that for this episode? Let's get some Uber Eats and we'll watch a movie. We'll watch some Sex and the City, shall we? I don't think you've ever seen it.
00:01:25
Speaker 1: And there's nothing more like never done or original than millennials bringing up Sex and the City. Like we're totally paving the way. That's a new era. In all seriousness, tell me, how are you feeling? I'm good. It's been a weird week, I feel.
00:01:41
Speaker 2: I feel like, you know, obviously last week I was definitely not expecting to talk about that.
00:01:48
Speaker 1: It's such a sensitive topic.
00:01:51
Speaker 2: And then, you know, the greatest thing I think ever about having anxiety is you go and then question every single little thing you said and everything about how it can be, you know, received by the public.
00:02:03
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, yeah. It's a social hangover, right? Do you remember before children and big responsibilities, like when you had the time to wake up after a big night? When you're younger, you can have a big night.
00:02:16
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:02:16
Speaker 1: Without too many repercussions. And, you know, narcissistically lie there and go, oh, did I smile too much? Did I really tell them this after my fourth wine? Like, was I too much? Like just that spiraling. Except this one was like on a scale of, That you probably haven't experienced before in terms of, I don't know, ripping wounds open. Yeah. Showing everyone.
00:02:42
Speaker 2: And also, honey, in my 20s, I never remembered about anything the night before.
00:02:49
Speaker 1: So it was great.
00:02:50
Speaker 2: I couldn't have any of that because I would forget what a fool I'd made of myself.
00:02:53
Speaker 1: Late life anxiety. I love that. Yeah, exactly. No, definitely. It was, you know. Tell me. Diving into walking out of the studio after that, like how everything ended. Yeah, I think it was like, yeah, you just feel like, I'm definitely just feeling like I've been in a washing machine for the past, you know, few weeks. And it's so weird.
00:03:15
Speaker 2: We were just talking about it before we started recording, like how anxiety can show up in your body.
00:03:20
Speaker 1: Manifest. Yeah.
00:03:22
Speaker 2: And I woke up the day after we'd recorded and like my body was like pulsing, like sore. Like I'd done, yeah, like I'd done like a full body workout. And I was like, I literally just like worked out my brain a little bit and then my body was like dead.
00:03:38
Speaker 1: Well, because we know, I don't want to drop the T word, but we know trauma lives in our body, right?
00:03:44
Speaker 2: Yes.
00:03:44
Speaker 1: We've been told that. We know our gut and our brain are so intrinsically linked. Whether we nurture that connection is a different thing. Yeah. But I do think that emotional sharing and vulnerability, you're holding it all. Like there's tension. You probably have run a marathon in terms of the energy and like, I don't know where you hold your stress, but keeping your jaw sort of clenched or, and just, I think releasing it can feel either amazing or, or like you have to wait a little bit for the amazing. And what was your biggest fear, I think, with that conversation?
00:04:23
Speaker 2: Oh, it was definitely just being protective and respectful of my parents, you know, because it's like, I feel like, you know, kind of the way we spoke about it was a lot more about how it's shaped my relationship like with Ava and as a mom and how it's affected me. But it's also not just my story. So you want to make sure like I love and respect both my parents so much. So it's like you want to make sure that you're being respectful of them and you're not overstepping boundaries or, you know, like.
00:04:56
Speaker 1: It's really hard when you, obviously, our headlines are going to bring up all sorts of things because it's We're humans. Yeah. And by the time you get to our age, our age.
00:05:09
Speaker 2: She talked some shit about that.
00:05:11
Speaker 1: It was literally a slip of the tongue. Everyone can tell you look younger than I do on this couch. Like we know.
00:05:16
Speaker 2: Don't be silly.
00:05:17
Speaker 1: But when you get to our age, you're like, you've shared stories. Nothing is completely your story, but it's okay. I learned because, oh God, the amount of times I've held back or needed to make phone calls or, you know me, I can't listen to things back. Yeah. I put things out there, throw the shit and, you know, land where it may. Yeah. But there are repercussions and I've learned over the years those repercussions can be equally traumatizing and. Well. But you're allowed to have your experience.
00:05:51
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:05:51
Speaker 1: It's hard to note. And I think as well, to me, like sitting in a boardroom. Mm.
00:05:58
Speaker 2: Or being on an email chain talking about a podcast called Overshare is just so different to actually sharing.
00:06:07
Speaker 1: Oversharing. Yeah. Do you know what I mean?
00:06:09
Speaker 2: It's like, it's all well and good in theory to say we're going to do this. But the one thing I will say is, you know, for me, I really want this podcast, I would like it to like help women. That's my number one thing. If a woman can listen to my experience or your experience and feel less alone in herself and feel like she's not the only person that thinks that way or feels that way or has those things happen or, you know, then that to me is like worth it.
00:06:39
Speaker 1: Oh, you can, well, that's the idea. We're not sitting here stripping off fucking band-aids that have been stuck there for 20 years.
00:06:47
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:06:47
Speaker 1: And they're stuck there for a reason. Like you don't want to see the infected shit. Yeah. You know, that's under there. This is an analogy. I know it's gross. It is disgusting, but I get it. But you do, I can't explain how even being able to laugh about something that hurts so much. I think, I think the relief that can give someone to, To be proud of your maturity. Yeah. And be proud of where you are at this moment because I was utterly enthralled and I was, I forgot we were here doing this until I heard some sniffles in the audience. And because I was engaged and I wanted to know more and I'd never seen you like this, you know, I love like going down.
00:07:29
Speaker 2: I don't think anyone like really, except my very close friends and family have ever seen me like that. So.
00:07:34
Speaker 1: But that's the point. We all, the thing is though, we're not special, like no disrespect. We aren't, we're two women, I think, and everything that we experience on a macro level, like, oh, well, your divorce was different because, you know, everyone read about it. Why is that different to the everyday experience? We're all the celebrity of our own life. Yeah. We all live a little more publicly than we ever used to. Yeah. Even if you're not on social media, you have your communities and people talk, people learn things and walking into a hall of people that you've known your whole life and knowing that they know things about you. private life or your pain is on display, whether that's a family disintegrating, whether that's addiction, whether that's trauma that resurfaces. Like every woman standing in that hall has her own treasure trove. Yeah. And that's what I just find of absolute shit. But fascinating.
00:08:29
Speaker 2: Fascinating shit, but shit all the same.
00:08:30
Speaker 1: Think about, right, do you ever go to your comments and go, oh, this is a really good place to have a really in-depth discussion? No, no, no, no, no. We do it in DMs. Yeah. Someone will reach out and go- Hey, Pheebs, like you being able to laugh and separate this memory from the worst of your life. I went, yeah, I can do that too. It's okay to talk about this. And like, it sounds so cliche to not feel shame, but oh my God, the feeling of being thrown away or ashamed or dirty or failing or used. It's so fucking universal.
00:09:04
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:09:04
Speaker 1: And I think just someone taking the time, Hannah. to pick up their phone after listening to us throw, you know, what's the expression? Like, shoot the shit. Oh, yeah, yeah. Kind of shoot the shit together. Were you going to say throw shit at the wall? Yeah. I hope it's true. I need some more shit metaphors. Anyway, my point is, like, but how good does that feel to know someone's picked up their phone? Yeah. They've heard you say something.
00:09:29
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:09:30
Speaker 1: It's landed somewhere for them. I know.
00:09:32
Speaker 2: Well, I'm so nervous because, you know, the episode– And that hasn't dropped yet.
00:09:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. So I'm very nervous of, you know. Reaction.
00:09:43
Speaker 2: Reaction. Because I think as well, like when you are, like when you get thrown things like, oh, you're a shit chief stew, you're like, oh, cool. Like, I really don't fucking care.
00:09:52
Speaker 1: Do you know how many times I was watching that? I just, I wanted like a team Hannah t-shirt. I had to fast forward sometimes when you got in trouble.
00:09:57
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:09:59
Speaker 1: No, but it's like when you.
00:10:00
Speaker 2: Like not personal, like I just, I kind of don't care what you think.
00:10:03
Speaker 1: You're like, oh, you're a slut. You're like, cool. Yeah.
00:10:05
Speaker 2: And I had a great time being one.
00:10:07
Speaker 1: Leave me alone. Oh my God. I think I've said this to you before. My dad used to say growing up when people who don't know you criticize you, it's more about them.
00:10:15
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:10:16
Speaker 1: You can't do anything about that. Yeah. When someone who knows you or loves you criticizes you, then you've got a fucking problem. It's very different, yeah.
00:10:22
Speaker 2: But even as well, I think on this subject, if I get criticized, I probably won't deal with it that well. And I'm like so happy because I'm going to be in D.C. and not with my husband and child. So I'll just feel like in the corner of my hotel room rocking back and forth crying instead of like at home.
00:10:40
Speaker 1: So, yeah, really pumped about that. But you can always close your eyes, you know, and be in D.C. and be far away because– I think you should be nothing but fucking proud because I am. Yeah. And look, I'm not going to crawl up your butt, but I think I would say, Hannah, that if there was anything upsetting in terms of reaction from people outside of your immediate circle. Yeah. Babe, it's so much more about them. It just is. No, I know.
00:11:07
Speaker 2: I know.
00:11:07
Speaker 1: But I appreciate that that's when it's the unknown. Yeah, I know. But that's why we've got this couch. Exactly.
00:11:14
Speaker 2: I'm kind of in it with you. We've got some more headlines this week.
00:11:18
Speaker 1: Yeah. Which I'm excited about. Okay.
00:11:22
Speaker 2: Some unhinged ones. Well, I have some unhinged ones for you.
00:11:25
Speaker 1: Oh, really? From my life? You found something unhinged? Oh, shocking. It's crazy. Because the environment is very....
00:11:32
Speaker 2: I was reading, you know, one of the articles and it's like the environment is very.
00:11:41
Speaker 1: kind of culty in some ways, right? Do you mean which side of it?
00:11:46
Speaker 2: The, like the NRL side of things. It's very like protective and culty and like you have to follow these rules and live this way.
00:11:56
Speaker 1: You're in or you're out. Yeah. Yeah.
00:11:59
Speaker 2: So was there a point where you went, like, was there like this cutoff from you being in and then you're out or was it like a gradual thing?
00:12:08
Speaker 1: I perceive it as a woman who would have swallowed anything to protect her family is how I see it. And it's really hard not to judge myself when I look back.
00:12:20
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:12:21
Speaker 1: Because all I want to do is go, you fucking idiot. It's so fucking obvious. Why didn't you run? Why didn't you grab those kids and fucking just get out of there? It should be so easy, but it's not. And Lisa Wilkinson wrote an article actually, and it was quite heady. It was brilliant. It was really considered. And she wrote about when something happens publicly and there's male behavior, and I think, you know, we've all lived in Australia for a long time. Anytime poor behavior hits the headlines, you know, Sydney Swans, we're very quick to defend, you know, athletes, sportsmen, people that we know and love and we think we understand. And I've been in that as well. And she wrote an article about how it's usually oftentimes, and she supported this theory, a woman who's answering for the behavior of a man in her life. So when something happened over here, I remember going to a fitting with Elliot Garner, who's a good friend of mine, and I was doing some work with Colgate and the races at the time. I was sort of 20-something weeks pregnant with Billy when this started happening. And, you know, I was excited to wear this little outfit we'd put together. It was a lovely escape for my brain. And I was going to this appearance. And the morning of, I got a call from Sharon, who's a dear friend and sort of, you know, manager slash friend. who I've been with for decades, and she's something, she's like a pillar for me. She's something I go to when I can't read it. My emotions are too big to understand it or whatever. And she said, Phoebe, you cannot go out there today. She wrote me a message saying, this is just disgusting. There was this throng of people just waiting to get that picture of someone who's shown up to go to work, or heaven forbid, to show a face and smile, to get the photo, to put something horrific next to it. even if it's dressed up as something lovely.
00:14:22
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:14:23
Speaker 1: And it was just this after this, after every headline was looking to me. And it was like, I was this sideshow to show what was cracking. Anyway, I wrote to Lisa Wilkinson. This is how fiercely protective I was at that point. I basically wrote her this message, a how dare you message. I'm not a victim. How dare you say I'm a victim? Yeah. It was really, I went for her. And she was so fucking kind. Yeah. She absolutely copped it, but she was looking after me. She was standing up. She was standing up for you. She was defending me. And I told her to fuck off. And I'll never forget seeing her again on the set of like this other thing that we then did. And I saw her face and I just ran over and gave her the biggest cuddle.
00:15:08
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:15:09
Speaker 1: I remember just saying to her, fuck, you were so right. I get it. And it's that, that feeling of rinsing away that place that you'd been in and believed in so hard for so long.
00:15:19
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:15:20
Speaker 1: And that was the moment. It was just a really good indication of how far and how hard I worked to get my brain from one place to another. And instead of, I think everyone wanted me to, you know, berate these women that were on the other side of things that were part of this narrative. But all I felt was a desire to see if they were okay. Yeah. Because it felt Every single person on the periphery or who dragged into what was going on was feeling it and just being pummeled again and again. And there was this delight in that. The only thing I think that really helped media-wise was I've worked in media forever and that's the one thing I had that other people didn't. I think that gave me an ability to distance or detach. Detach yourself from it, yeah. And then when I needed to lean on stuff that I knew how to do. you know, call people who were there and I could detach a little bit from the emotion of it. And I've written stories like that. So I think I detach from myself as the subject of those stories. It seems like you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. One of the headlines that like made me like kind of internally eye roll was and probably externally as well, to be fair, was like. I love your eye rolls. Oh, what to do. When they're on your side. Yeah, exactly.
00:16:38
Speaker 2: Like what to do if your ex-husband has a baby or something or has a new baby.
00:16:43
Speaker 1: Do nothing.
00:16:44
Speaker 2: And it's like, okay, so now you're criticizing her for not doing anything.
00:16:49
Speaker 1: But it's not. They would say, well, we're not criticizing you. That's, we're just saying, we're just saying that was a lovely way to handle it. It's like, no, you found a right around because I knew that what was happening over here, you were going to find a way to drag. And I know you're going to find a way to drag me in and get an extra little story out of it because you can, right?
00:17:08
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:17:08
Speaker 1: Because I've done that. Yeah. Like, you know, I've given a story legs. I've, you know, brought to, I want to feel some nodding from producers. Like you can, you can bring things together. And I think it's just one of those other links that attaches you to someone or something for such a long time. And that one was one where I like, yes, I roll energy. It was the biggest, like I said, oh, for fuck sake. I've literally done nothing. Nothing. And people wonder why you hide away because, and why women have the need to be, just make yourself smaller and smaller and smaller because you're less of a target. Yeah. And that one, I just remember thinking, mate, that is not play on. What the fucking fuck? I did nothing. Yeah. So that you guys could enjoy and let that sit there. That is not my story. Yeah. I, and I don't want to come out and say, I wish you well, because that's a story. Yeah.
00:18:02
Speaker 2: That's going to be manipulated as well. And like.
00:18:04
Speaker 1: Not even that. I just thought for women, like I said, not for women, for all women, it's impossible. Yeah. Like it's the Barbie speech all over again. Yeah. When I think about how other women have to go through this without, you know, 10 years behind a media desk. Mm. where I understood a little bit.
00:18:21
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:18:21
Speaker 1: Imagine not having that. It is so personal when your children's pictures are put next to the worst thing to happen to you in your life. You just think, okay, this is out of my head.
00:18:39
Speaker 2: When you were in the media, you said before like you've given stories legs and things like that.
00:18:46
Speaker 1: Not tabloid. You weren't in tabloid, were you? No. Hardcore news, baby. Okay. So I was, so I was at Sydney Uni. Yeah. Getting my degree.
00:18:55
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:18:55
Speaker 1: College. And then your last year, because I got little cute brackets on my degree. It's Bachelor Arts Media Com. The brackets mean like a mini thesis kind of thing.
00:19:04
Speaker 2: Okay.
00:19:05
Speaker 1: And I had, sorry, I'd got an internship at Sky News in the press gallery. And then I'd met a few people at Channel 7. Yeah. And, you know, I'd work for free. I'd do extra days. I'd just show up. And... Yeah. The seven newsroom were like, come on, we'll give you 20 bucks an hour over the 2010 election, Gillard Abbott. Oh yeah. And I was laughing at it. Like I just, you know, I'd, I'd, you know, um, what do you call it? Transcribe all the interviews. I'd go do pickups and I'd ask the questions they wanted. And then over time I got picked up to go work in Sydney and I started on updates over the weekend. And so then I got put on the news desk and we look after the news component on Sunrise. Okay. So Nat Barr, who always read the news, who's now a dear friend, like life, right? I would be her little AP, her little producer. yeah so I'd get into work at like 11 o'clock at night I'd work That whole shift, we'd have, you know, Chris Reason at London Olympics. Yeah. You know, Osama Bin Laden. We'd have Ant Cox over for the Vatican. You'd have four screens. Yeah. I'd be calling, yeah, I've seen a car crash. Anyone die? Nope, nope, don't want the vision. Yeah.
00:20:05
Speaker 2: You know, like. Yeah.
00:20:06
Speaker 1: Did you love it?
00:20:07
Speaker 2: I loved it.
00:20:08
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that's what makes you really good at criticism now. Yeah. Like in the newsroom, sink or swim.
00:20:14
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:20:14
Speaker 1: That's why I love people who've also been raised on news. It is just, it is what it is. Yeah. But also there's creativity and adrenaline. Like I wouldn't get up to pee. It'd be like suddenly the sun was up and I'm writing the last updates. And if there were bushfires, I'd be there till two in the afternoon. Yeah. But I'd go home at like 11 in the morning maybe. And I'd go home, change, go to uni, do my classes. Yeah. Get back in the afternoon, sleep. And go to work at night.
00:20:40
Speaker 2: Oh, my gosh.
00:20:41
Speaker 1: And I had a segment on Channel 9.
00:20:43
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:20:43
Speaker 1: And I think that's when I'd started dating him. And one of the first people I told was Pete Overton because I'm at Channel 9 and it's all the journos are in there. And it was one of them that broke the first sort of sign that we were seeing each other. Yeah. So I had this like weird perspective where I knew these reporters and journos. Yeah. And I was within. Did you ever have like.
00:21:07
Speaker 2: I guess, fights with like your friends about what they were riding or what they were airing?
00:21:11
Speaker 1: Never. You know what this is like. Yeah. If that would always come back to bite you. The way to fight is just by not talking to you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Like respect begets respect. Yeah. And a lot of them, look, a lot of them knew me and knew my family and had known me for years.
00:21:30
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:21:30
Speaker 1: And so. But they're just doing their jobs. Yeah. Put it this way. No, I didn't know anyone at the Daily Mail. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
00:21:38
Speaker 2: They tend to have like the worst headlines.
00:21:40
Speaker 1: But it means you can, I won't act like, you know, I didn't get my, not hands dirty in that way, but you know, I wasn't utterly helpless in that respect. It was horrific because of what it was about, but I was able to cling to some life rafts, keep my head above water and feel in control in some way by having conversations, whether I was, you know, I had given a heads up. Yeah. Shari Markson was the one who ended up With Claire Harvey, who's one of the best human beings and journalists I know over at The Australian. They became lifelong friends, Jess Calleran as well, who's a sports writer, because they came to me and said, we know you after things went public, which was not my decision, not my expectation. And I did that story with them. Yeah. Which was gorgeous. I thought that was really, you didn't like it? No, no, I did. It's just. it's really sad. Yeah. You know, but it gave me, I don't know, it turned utter like grief into something that felt solid, which was really helpful because I was disappearing.
00:22:47
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:22:48
Speaker 1: It's funny.
00:22:48
Speaker 2: Cause like you're a few years younger than me. Thank you.
00:22:51
Speaker 1: And I wasn't, see, I wasn't wrong.
00:22:54
Speaker 2: I'm just talking on the birth certificates. Okay.
00:22:56
Speaker 1: Just factual.
00:22:58
Speaker 2: Um, And it's funny because, you know, I read a few comments and I hope you don't mind me saying this. I read a few comments.
00:23:04
Speaker 1: Oh, that's always fun.
00:23:05
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:23:06
Speaker 1: Just like, oh, she.
00:23:07
Speaker 2: Needs to move on or she needs to do this or she needs to do that. And I think the hardest thing is like. You were like, what, 23, 24 when you guys started dating? Like that was around the same time as I joined yachting. And what I've done since I joined yachting is like have six years on a boat. And then I did five years on a TV show. I traveled the world like a million times. I met my husband. I got married.
00:23:32
Speaker 1: I had a kid.
00:23:33
Speaker 2: Like there's, it's when you actually think.
00:23:35
Speaker 1: About it in terms of.
00:23:38
Speaker 2: How young you were, Of course, it's something that has shaped your life. Firstly, you have two kids out of it. And secondly, it started when you were 23. Like I met Josh when I was 31, 32. So I had eight, nine years of life before him that you never had.
00:23:59
Speaker 1: Do you know what I mean? We spent time growing up. Yeah. Yeah. We've kind of grew up together a bit. Yeah. This is the thing, right? It's, If you evade the questions people ask, and I think you accept, we both accept some level and we welcome people being interested. Yeah. That's a compliment. I respect that. I welcome people having an opinion. If it's a shit one, you do not have to rub it in my face. Just keep it to yourself. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know, even though I have meticulously, as I said before, like the pack of wild rice, split my memories so that I can have something from them.
00:24:37
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:24:37
Speaker 1: I'm not going to wipe that memory card. Because I went from having so much planned out. I went from having a set of values that I believed in. It was such a shock. And when Armageddon happened, when your future's annihilated, I think I've said this before. There's an excitement, but there's also paralyzing fear because everything you believed, everything you knew, everything that you were well on track with, you know, this, this bun's coming out. We can't go back in the oven. Like we've, we're way down the line here. What I think was really interesting is because of that, because of where we were, I wasn't making decisions. And this is why I'm so passionate about speaking to younger women who are making choices. I'm looking at you, Sally. about starting families, what I know now, the hindsight I possess, I would have ensured that I was on a lot more equal footing to be able to make decisions about what I wanted for myself as opposed to what I did, which was tread water, survive and take whatever I needed to make sure that I still tried to reach that goal that I thought was so important, a home and a family for the kids. No matter what age you are, I don't know how one reinvents themselves while they're still caretaking. And the most important thing in the world to them comes from all of those decisions that were made then. Everything that I am now, here... has come from those tracks. Yeah. Lovely. If I could say, yes, no, close the book on that one. It's a completely different character this time, Jenny. No, no, no. She's the same girl. Yeah. You can't go back. No. I am going forward. You can move forward.
00:26:30
Speaker 3: Yes.
00:26:30
Speaker 1: You can, but you move forward as this entity that has all of the amazing things and then all of the dark things. Yeah. And then, and all of those things inform my decisions. So if anyone asks now, like I've said before, when do you have a baby? I would say to them, it's amazing to be in love. It's amazing to get married. It's so beautiful. And I'm so happy for you. I'm not jealous of married couples. I am jealous of really good divorces, right? Yeah. Where if I had stopped working, Hannah, if I had made that decision to completely pull back on everything and stop building anything for myself, I can be absolutely honest in telling you that everything that happened after The fire that we walked through, I don't know where I'd be. I don't know where I'd be without that scrap of independence. Yeah. Because staying with someone and raising your children together, that was a dream that I thought was a given in life.
00:27:29
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:27:29
Speaker 1: But it didn't work out that way. No. No. And like there wasn't time to really wallow in that. Yeah. Because it was, you know, baby's coming. You've had this baby. Well, they need a roof over their head. They've got to eat. You can earn the money. Yeah. And so where are you going to live?
00:27:47
Speaker 2: Yeah. Where's seven years, no dating or seven years, no sex and no dating.
00:27:54
Speaker 1: Oh, um, that was a good little turn. Then I was waiting for like the next one on that. And now you've got me. I'm just like, Oh fuck. Yeah. She just got whiplash. But that's what I mean. Like, how can I talk about dating without that person? But also, Phoebe, it's more like, oh, yes, you know, if I was able to still be free and easygoing and like sexy and charming and my place or yours, not my place. I live with my parents. Yeah, but that's okay. So this is the thing. It's different. Of course it's different.
00:28:26
Speaker 2: Just like it would be like if Josh and I split up now, me dating now would be very different to me dating when I met Josh, right?
00:28:34
Speaker 1: Correct.
00:28:34
Speaker 2: So you have different circumstances.
00:28:38
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. And you're in a very different place in your life. Yeah. But just because you live with your parents or you don't live in Sydney. No, that's not what I'm saying. Sorry. It's more so that's like, no, that's almost, I have separated that in my mind. It's something, actually, that's not true, actually. That's probably a lie. The idea of, you know, like when you've caught waves, right? It's been rough surf. You've got yourself in. You go, huh. I got thrown around a bit there, but I'm okay. I'm good. That was a bit hairy. Like, and you lie on the sand and you sunbake for a little bit and you feel a bit less life threatened. Do you risk it and go back in? Correct. However, if I, if I go back to being young, what I risked at 24, 25, it was lower stakes. I will never risk my children not feeling that they are my number one priority. I agree with that. I've struggled to step out and do this one day a week because they are little people and every decision that I made in the wake of whatever happened Was for and about them. Yeah, and I totally agree with you. I don't remember how to make any other decision because it's so direct.
00:29:59
Speaker 2: I agree with you, but the only person that can really make tiny little waves or tiny little steps in a direction is you, right?
00:30:13
Speaker 1: Yeah. So....
00:30:18
Speaker 2: Have you had the conversation in your head? Oh, yes. Have you had that conversation with yourself of it's been seven years?
00:30:27
Speaker 1: How long are we going to go? See, inherently that question suggests that I'm missing something. I'm not. I could go forever.
00:30:38
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:30:38
Speaker 1: Because I've forgotten. Oh, it sounds a bit. I don't know how to articulate it. I. I don't know what it's like to want something or to have something that doesn't serve the goal that I have in mind, which is giving the kids everything that they fucking deserve in life.
00:31:01
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:31:01
Speaker 1: Because that's up to me. Yeah.
00:31:03
Speaker 2: Right.
00:31:03
Speaker 1: So I'd have to be on very, very stable footing and it would have to be something really great, really exciting that came along. I don't even know if I'm saying this right. The way I would talk about dating is by having fun with the topic with you.
00:31:19
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:31:20
Speaker 1: It's not something that I would sort of sit and say. It's not something you want to do. Oh, well, Phoebe, you're not in love because you haven't gone looking for it.
00:31:26
Speaker 2: I'm not talking about love. I'm just talking about dating.
00:31:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, but every second, like I have to work. I just, I sound like I'm whinging and I don't want to sound like I'm whinging. Every minute that I have, I have to ask someone to give me that minute. If I'm here, I've asked a favor to be here. I need mom and dad to look after the kids. If I'm not at school to pick them up, I'm one person. It changes things. And I'm not complaining about single moms because they do it. They get it done. They get shit done. But I think you sacrifice things because they're not inherently necessary. And we are at a level of happiness that I could go on with forever. It would be so lovely. to fall in love with someone, but I genuinely don't know what that looks like. Yeah. I don't know what that looks like for the kids. My biggest fear is that they would feel in any way second to anything. Yeah. Which I just won't do. Yeah. Ever. Yeah. That's fair. That's my non-negotiable.
00:32:25
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:32:26
Speaker 1: If that makes sense. Yeah. Even like, and then I guess, because I'd want to talk about dating in a fun way because I don't have the capacity to think about it in a serious way yet. I don't. I have not been on one date. I have not messaged someone. That's how high the wall is, right?
00:32:41
Speaker 2: And that's what I'm saying is I don't think that like, I don't think your next move is, hey, let's try and find our next Mr.
00:32:49
Speaker 1: Forever. Do you know how many times I get asked, when's it happening? People are waiting to write that headline. And the number of women who write to me saying, fuck, I feel like a loser. I haven't repartnered. There was something wrong with me. Yeah, but it's not about that.
00:33:06
Speaker 2: No.
00:33:06
Speaker 1: That literally does not matter to me.
00:33:08
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:33:09
Speaker 1: That's how far up the priority for the kids is.
00:33:11
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:33:12
Speaker 1: Why would I do anything that took me away? If I go away, they go with me. Yeah. If they go away, I go with them. Yeah. Poppy's going for three days riding with my mum. And, like, that's so great, but that's not the normal. Like, Billy and I are going to throw a fucking party at home. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like, our dynamic is so set. We don't have that separation between– Parents and kids, you know, say, okay, mom and dad time. We're having a wine. Like, we're watching this.
00:33:38
Speaker 2: Off to your rooms.
00:33:39
Speaker 1: Literally in our house. I'm one of the three. Like, I'm the kiddies.
00:33:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're at the kids' table at dinner. Okay.
00:33:46
Speaker 1: So headline. Yeah. Phoebe. It's time to drop the surname. I know we have history. Who? It says, I know we have history. Writes. The journalist. No, fuck it. She wrote it. What's her name? Jana Hocking.
00:34:04
Speaker 2: But calling yourself Mrs Burgess after Sam remarried just isn't a good look.
00:34:08
Speaker 1: Who's Yana Hawking?
00:34:10
Speaker 3: She's the one that rage baited and wrote the headline that was like Phoebe Burgess, why don't you change your name? I know we've got history.
00:34:19
Speaker 1: She's got a history because she shagged Sam. Okay. And you told me that she'd called the paps or something. No. She was the one I was doing the podcast with. I showed up at the races to do a job. And someone, Hannah Heinrich, ran up to me and said, like, I don't know her personally. I've never met this person. No, you don't.
00:34:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was explained about the podcast situation.
00:34:46
Speaker 1: Oh, my God, that's the same person. Yes, the fuck?
00:34:49
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:34:50
Speaker 1: I was like, I feel like I'm going crazy here. Can we keep this part in, please? You have to keep this in. I don't know this woman from a bar of motherfucking soap. Isn't that quite funny? Do you know what? The ones, the ones like, she was not one I would have called and see if she was okay.
00:35:05
Speaker 2: Not. Sorry.
00:35:06
Speaker 1: Oh my God. So this is the girl. So she was doing this podcast with you. This is the one. She wrote that. Yeah. Obviously before. Okay. There's been a few of them. That's all right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then, okay.
00:35:18
Speaker 2: Okay.
00:35:18
Speaker 1: Sharon said one of the Daily Mail girls. This man fucked. It is insane. Don't you find it funny though? He went to find blonde journalists after a divorce. Yeah. One after the other.
00:35:28
Speaker 3: It's a type thing, isn't it?
00:35:29
Speaker 1: Oh, my God. No. No, it shouldn't be. Because I was not his type when we met.
00:35:35
Speaker 3: Familiarity.
00:35:36
Speaker 1: Oh, my God. Okay. Here's some friendly. That's why I moved to the Highlands, Hannah. Yeah. Things don't find you down there. It's a bit like, you know, Bridgerton. That's what it feels like. Yeah. You go down. Like, yes, we have electricity. Yeah. But stuff, like, trickles down a lot slower. So, Bridgerton.
00:35:52
Speaker 2: How do you feel when you've got these journalists?
00:35:55
Speaker 1: Read it, read it, read it, read it. Okay, so give it to me again. Now that I've got... Does anyone have a photo of her? Honestly, I could not pick this woman out in a line-up. Yeah. Just to see if we've ever met. I don't think you've met. I don't want to be unkind, but she said we have history. I think.
00:36:12
Speaker 3: Isn't that not referencing her sleeping with Sam, though?
00:36:14
Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh, I hope so, because we haven't met. Never met this woman.
00:36:21
Speaker 2: No, she's saying we have history because I think she was papped with Sam.
00:36:27
Speaker 1: Oh, okay. So that's not, so we don't have history. No, she has history with him, I guess. Yeah. So that's, okay. Getting on my toots. Right. Well, I'll just say like off the bat, Jana, we don't have history. Okay. So I'm a little bit dubious about this headline. Go on, dear friend. Okay. Heads up. Come on. Okay, now.
00:36:44
Speaker 2: Phoebe, it's time to drop the surname. I know we have history, writes Jenna Hocking, but calling yourself Mrs. Burgess after Sam remarried just isn't a good look. Here's some friendly advice.
00:36:55
Speaker 1: Do you know what, like, rises up in me with that? We don't have history, but coming from my name, don't get that close to my children. Yeah. It'll end you. Yeah. That's the rage I feel. Think of a fucker you fuck, babe. Yeah. All credit to you. But I know that I had to have a few. tests is that credit though when you know some things to put yourself in that position that's the kind of motives that i will never ever engage with something like that yeah Imagine like, so this, okay, I understand it now. So I showed up to a race day at Crown, right? All dressed up, I was there for work. Okay, I don't think I should go to race days. I think I have to.
00:37:35
Speaker 2: I'm like, is this the second story we've heard about a bad race day today?
00:37:39
Speaker 1: This one was in Melbourne. This went on for years. It's a saga. And a friend ran up and when you go to these things, you know, like I go with everyone there. Everyone's lovely. The Melbourne crew are so divine. And Like being a cat amongst the pigeons, it's not cool. Yeah. It's not the intention. No one will happily watch you embarrass yourself or be put on a plate or in front of, you know, photographers or speak to people, which is your job on those days, without whispering in your ear, hey, you were right. Do you want me to come with you? It was one of the kindest things anyone's ever done. And then I said, what's going on? What's going on? And they read the headline to me and apparently... This headline? Yes. Yeah. That's why I know about it. Okay. But there is no way I would read it. Yeah. Like... You can write that.
00:38:22
Speaker 2: There's no way I can read it because I don't pay the dollar a month or whatever.
00:38:25
Speaker 1: Oh, well, honey, don't waste a dollar.
00:38:27
Speaker 2: I won't, trust me.
00:38:28
Speaker 1: I wouldn't. No. With respect to the publication. You can buy like a can of coffee for that. Yeah. Or just like go into the comment section on any basic bitch article and it'll be pretty much that. It'll be there. But do you know what I mean? Like to associate yourself with someone and suggest that you have any inkling or understanding of what you are saying. Yeah. You think it's cute. because you dipped your toe into my world for a minute for a headline. I judge that behavior in terms of you can do what you would like. Do not drag my name because it is mine. At what point does a woman own her name? When are we allowed to own our identity? We were adults and we made a decision. I thought about keeping my byline, my email in the end of it, like He didn't like that. I wasn't really allowed. I don't know how to say it, but we didn't all have different names on our passports. We all had the same name. Yeah. We were a family.
00:39:23
Speaker 2: Right.
00:39:24
Speaker 1: And that was a conscious decision. Yeah. I had to, I know you hate admin and we've spoken about it before. I did the admin. I made sure it was all done. Everyone was happy. I kept my email as one little like flag. And I think the idea that as soon as something goes wrong, you have to hand back something that what you borrowed for a minute and go back to belonging to your dad and Yeah, it's very weird. Are we loaning our names or can't we accept that you've become a certain person, an identity? That's who I am. Yeah. It's not perfect. Yeah. It doesn't match what I thought it would be. I'm sorry, journalist whom I do not know. It doesn't match what you expect. Yeah. But to suggest that that's in any way uncool, I find a really basic understanding of what identity means. crisis you go through when your world falls apart and you'll do anything to hang on to something that feels solid. And to turn around and look at my babies and say, we don't belong together because that's how it felt. When you're unmoored and everything's drifting apart, you'll have anything that holds you together. I don't want to be at school when they say, oh, Poppy Burgess, Billy Burgess, well done, and then be identified differently. You need every ounce of stability and I'm proud of our name. We are a three. We are not missing anything. Yeah. I'm not returning anything. I am actually Ms. Not Mrs. I just cannot for the life of me change it on fucking Instagram. I've tried like underscores and everything. So if that's the beef, I get it. That's more like admin basicness. There's no other good name with it. So I just left it what it was. But I think that we can associate so much weight to something and project that onto someone else. Yeah. We don't have history and you should be really grateful that you don't have my history in the way that you think that you relate to me. Yeah. And I just, it's so symbolic of like how often we judge people without understanding what we are saying. Yeah. And how painful that can be. Yeah. Because trust me, when you are unmoored like that, I would love to go back in time and have made sure that my footing was more solid. I would love to go back in time and have kept, you know, my last name is my middle name. There are a million, there are a million things I would have done utterly differently. But that's a beautiful thing. Yeah. But you also accept what I'm proud of when I look at that name is that I accept all the responsibility and all the choices that I made. That made me a mum of two amazing kids.
00:42:08
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:42:09
Speaker 1: And we're the Burgesses. Yeah. And I want them to always be proud of that. Yeah. I want them to know they came from choice. We chose them. We wanted them. We loved them. And that doesn't waver for me. Yeah. I back it all the way.
00:42:21
Speaker 2: I think it's extremely strange to expect a woman to change her surname from her children's surname. Like, I just think that's so weird.
00:42:29
Speaker 1: Look, and if they have the same name as one last parent who's there, all, like, Who is parenting. Yeah. Maybe. Everyone has all of their reasons.
00:42:40
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:42:40
Speaker 1: But it is something that people have been utterly obsessed with. I know. But like it's such a weird obsession. Imagine what it feels like to keep that name some days. But I'm just choosing to be proud of it.
00:42:53
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:42:54
Speaker 1: What the fuck else can I do? No, exactly. Speaking of unhinged journalists. Oh, yeah. What have you got for me? So apparently you used a sperm donor. Oh, for John. For Ava. Seriously? What? I did not read the whole article.
00:43:10
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:43:10
Speaker 1: Because I need you to tell me what this was about.
00:43:13
Speaker 2: No. So it was insane. It was like Josh was super private.
00:43:16
Speaker 1: Yeah. I didn't post anything about him.
00:43:19
Speaker 2: And then one morning I woke up and there was an article about how Josh didn't exist. And I'd used a sperm donor from one of the guys from Southern Charm to get pregnant.
00:43:30
Speaker 1: And I just made Josh up.
00:43:32
Speaker 2: I was like, and I said to Josh, I was like, babe, It's actually getting to be a bigger deal, me not posting a photo of you.
00:43:39
Speaker 1: Can I just post a photo of you? Right. Because he was, okay. Yes. Because Josh didn't exist. So they thought that you were, during filming, that you were calling, like, your cleaner, pretending it was Josh. Because you were on the phone, remember, during the filming? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Josh didn't actually sign the email.
00:43:55
Speaker 2: Well, because you never heard Josh's voice or saw his photo because he didn't sign it. After how it had ended, he didn't sign the release to allow his voice and photo to be used on the show.
00:44:05
Speaker 1: Nice little flex, Josh. I know, right? Yeah, yeah. I was proud of him. So, yeah, I guess I could have.
00:44:09
Speaker 2: Just made him up and got artificially inseminated by a Southern charm. Why the fuck would I do a Southern charm?
00:44:14
Speaker 1: Do you know what? I was honestly thinking the other day about my ovaries and it's a very arduous process getting some sperm. So- I can imagine that it's not something you would have just forgotten to declare. No, no.
00:44:28
Speaker 2: So I literally said to Josh, I was like, I'm posting a photo. I don't care if you like it or not. I cannot have these rumors swirling about me.
00:44:34
Speaker 1: It's true. You'll get the conspiracy nuts doing like a mock-up of Ava's face. Side by side, yeah. They're like, which Southern charm? Got Craig, Austin.
00:44:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know.
00:44:44
Speaker 1: It's crazy. I'm actually very excited. to see what headlines come up next because I think for the first time in a really long time, at least, we are putting the words in our mouth. Yeah, exactly. No, that's true. And we've landed ourselves in it. We'll probably fuck it up worse than the journalists. Finally, we have Aisha, you share, what are we doing this week, Sally?
00:45:07
Speaker 3: So it's obviously the school holidays, so most unhinged thing that's happened this week.
00:45:11
Speaker 1: Launching a podcast during school holidays? What were we thinking?
00:45:14
Speaker 2: Okay, I've actually got a good one for that. I took Ava to a little boy's birthday party on Saturday morning. She has been going around school telling people that we're going to Thailand for her birthday. There's going to be fireworks and she's been making invitations and giving them to her friends at school to her birthday. We're going to Thailand for my 40th birthday. She is a queen.
00:45:43
Speaker 1: I love her. Your friends are not invited. She's hijacked it.
00:45:47
Speaker 2: She's completely, she goes, Mum, how about we just share it, okay?
00:45:53
Speaker 1: She's been listening.
00:45:54
Speaker 2: So even when I talk to her about it, she's like, fine, we'll compromise. I will share my Thailand birthday party with you.
00:46:01
Speaker 1: I love the child that you are raising. So that was quite unhinged.
00:46:04
Speaker 2: And now I have to go around being like, oh, yeah, no, you're not invited to Thailand.
00:46:09
Speaker 1: Do you have mums coming up going, oh, little Johnny's just come home, so are you paying for these flights or will there be childcare? You can't eat Oreos. Yeah, exactly. Have you got a nanny organised? Okay, on my end, unhinged, I'm going to go with, so I've been sitting here, like you've seen me just every now and then, and I'm like I'm too worried to touch my hair. So I have dandruff at the moment and I'm worried every time I move it might be like, and the reason I have dandruff is because for the first time ever, right as we were about to start recording this podcast, my daughter with her 10 kilos of hair down to her waist. No, I already know what you're going to say. Bought lice home. She's nine. I've gone nine years, 10,000 pets, animals in and out of our lives, and not one bit of head lice. I've spent... Like they all tell you to use natural things. Don't do it. Natural things don't work.
00:47:05
Speaker 2: No, you need to bomb that hair.
00:47:08
Speaker 1: And then though, every pharmacy that I went to.
00:47:10
Speaker 2: Oh my God, I've started picturing already.
00:47:14
Speaker 3: I know.
00:47:14
Speaker 1: It was before our photo shoot. Every time we were like posing together. Oh my God. No, but we were done. I was, I had bombed us alive. Like we had done it. I'd done the seven days after, but just that feeling of like, It could come back. Yeah. And being really aware, like that bug before, all I was thinking was like, oh my God. So, um, I have been, it actually takes forever because after you bomb the little fuckers, they, I Googled a picture, they actually hang on to the hair strand. So even when you kill them and even when they've laid there, you have to brush it out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you have to. So I've just been like this in Poppy's hair. And you can't go halfway. You have to go all the way. So that was a nice little humbling parenting moment. And the funniest part was Poppy got done. Billy went down. I went down. And then my poor beautiful mother, who's allowed us into her home, had to get her very first head lice after 60-something years.
00:48:10
Speaker 2: Well, thanks for sharing because now I'm going to be itching all afternoon and be so paranoid.
00:48:15
Speaker 1: I did ask them, I said, what is socially acceptable with lice? Like how far after you've been infected or infested with them? And they were like, once you've done the bomb and then the seven-day follow-up. So I've done it correctly. Okay. But that would have been an awkward start. Oh, that would have been.
00:48:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, you would have, I would have, one of us would be looking for a new podcast host if I took lice home.
00:48:34
Speaker 1: I swear to God. I should have done a slick black bun. I'm so sorry.
00:48:37
Speaker 2: Thank you guys for listening. Make sure you send us any unhinged stories. Send us any stories about school holidays. Send us some funny school holidays stories.
00:48:48
Speaker 1: Because every mom, like that first day of holidays, you become, you know, like one of those entertainment cruise ship directors. Yes. With the clipboard. Yes. They wake up and they're like, oh, mom, are we having waffles and pancakes? And then are we like, have you got the slip and slide and this out? Oh, yeah. And you look at them like, what the fuck do you think this is? Yeah. No, no.
00:49:05
Speaker 2: I brought that on myself because I do that. Make sure you send them to at Overshare the podcast. Follow us on TikTok. Like and subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts. And we'll see you guys next week.
00:49:17
Speaker 1: We'll be here. Bye.
Speaker 1: Why didn't you run? Why didn't you grab those kids and fucking just get out of there?
00:00:05
Speaker 2: Ava has been going around school telling people that we're going to Thailand for her birthday.
00:00:10
Speaker 1: We're going for my 40th birthday. She is a queen.
00:00:14
Speaker 2: I know we have history, writes Jenna Hocking, but calling yourself Mrs Burgess after Sam remarried just isn't a good look.
00:00:21
Speaker 1: We don't have history, but coming from my name, don't get that close to my children. Yeah. End you. And you thought we'd never talk about it. Well, here we are.
00:00:39
Speaker 2: This is Overshare. We're keeping it between us. Was never really an option.
00:00:43
Speaker 1: I was like, I really wondered how that intro to every episode would work. Yeah. That has never been more real. Right. Than this week. Oh, I know.
00:00:52
Speaker 2: I know. I definitely feel like I overshared last week.
00:00:56
Speaker 1: I feel like, I think our look today, you're in this beautiful, comfy, warm hoodie, legs crossed. You know, like it feels like when I used to get my first period when I was younger and you would go to your friend's house, you'd sit on the couch and I'd give you like a hot water bottle and give you cuddles and chocolate and watch a movie. Yes.
00:01:15
Speaker 2: Oh my God. Can we just do that for this episode? Let's get some Uber Eats and we'll watch a movie. We'll watch some Sex and the City, shall we? I don't think you've ever seen it.
00:01:25
Speaker 1: And there's nothing more like never done or original than millennials bringing up Sex and the City. Like we're totally paving the way. That's a new era. In all seriousness, tell me, how are you feeling? I'm good. It's been a weird week, I feel.
00:01:41
Speaker 2: I feel like, you know, obviously last week I was definitely not expecting to talk about that.
00:01:48
Speaker 1: It's such a sensitive topic.
00:01:51
Speaker 2: And then, you know, the greatest thing I think ever about having anxiety is you go and then question every single little thing you said and everything about how it can be, you know, received by the public.
00:02:03
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, yeah. It's a social hangover, right? Do you remember before children and big responsibilities, like when you had the time to wake up after a big night? When you're younger, you can have a big night.
00:02:16
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:02:16
Speaker 1: Without too many repercussions. And, you know, narcissistically lie there and go, oh, did I smile too much? Did I really tell them this after my fourth wine? Like, was I too much? Like just that spiraling. Except this one was like on a scale of, That you probably haven't experienced before in terms of, I don't know, ripping wounds open. Yeah. Showing everyone.
00:02:42
Speaker 2: And also, honey, in my 20s, I never remembered about anything the night before.
00:02:49
Speaker 1: So it was great.
00:02:50
Speaker 2: I couldn't have any of that because I would forget what a fool I'd made of myself.
00:02:53
Speaker 1: Late life anxiety. I love that. Yeah, exactly. No, definitely. It was, you know. Tell me. Diving into walking out of the studio after that, like how everything ended. Yeah, I think it was like, yeah, you just feel like, I'm definitely just feeling like I've been in a washing machine for the past, you know, few weeks. And it's so weird.
00:03:15
Speaker 2: We were just talking about it before we started recording, like how anxiety can show up in your body.
00:03:20
Speaker 1: Manifest. Yeah.
00:03:22
Speaker 2: And I woke up the day after we'd recorded and like my body was like pulsing, like sore. Like I'd done, yeah, like I'd done like a full body workout. And I was like, I literally just like worked out my brain a little bit and then my body was like dead.
00:03:38
Speaker 1: Well, because we know, I don't want to drop the T word, but we know trauma lives in our body, right?
00:03:44
Speaker 2: Yes.
00:03:44
Speaker 1: We've been told that. We know our gut and our brain are so intrinsically linked. Whether we nurture that connection is a different thing. Yeah. But I do think that emotional sharing and vulnerability, you're holding it all. Like there's tension. You probably have run a marathon in terms of the energy and like, I don't know where you hold your stress, but keeping your jaw sort of clenched or, and just, I think releasing it can feel either amazing or, or like you have to wait a little bit for the amazing. And what was your biggest fear, I think, with that conversation?
00:04:23
Speaker 2: Oh, it was definitely just being protective and respectful of my parents, you know, because it's like, I feel like, you know, kind of the way we spoke about it was a lot more about how it's shaped my relationship like with Ava and as a mom and how it's affected me. But it's also not just my story. So you want to make sure like I love and respect both my parents so much. So it's like you want to make sure that you're being respectful of them and you're not overstepping boundaries or, you know, like.
00:04:56
Speaker 1: It's really hard when you, obviously, our headlines are going to bring up all sorts of things because it's We're humans. Yeah. And by the time you get to our age, our age.
00:05:09
Speaker 2: She talked some shit about that.
00:05:11
Speaker 1: It was literally a slip of the tongue. Everyone can tell you look younger than I do on this couch. Like we know.
00:05:16
Speaker 2: Don't be silly.
00:05:17
Speaker 1: But when you get to our age, you're like, you've shared stories. Nothing is completely your story, but it's okay. I learned because, oh God, the amount of times I've held back or needed to make phone calls or, you know me, I can't listen to things back. Yeah. I put things out there, throw the shit and, you know, land where it may. Yeah. But there are repercussions and I've learned over the years those repercussions can be equally traumatizing and. Well. But you're allowed to have your experience.
00:05:51
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:05:51
Speaker 1: It's hard to note. And I think as well, to me, like sitting in a boardroom. Mm.
00:05:58
Speaker 2: Or being on an email chain talking about a podcast called Overshare is just so different to actually sharing.
00:06:07
Speaker 1: Oversharing. Yeah. Do you know what I mean?
00:06:09
Speaker 2: It's like, it's all well and good in theory to say we're going to do this. But the one thing I will say is, you know, for me, I really want this podcast, I would like it to like help women. That's my number one thing. If a woman can listen to my experience or your experience and feel less alone in herself and feel like she's not the only person that thinks that way or feels that way or has those things happen or, you know, then that to me is like worth it.
00:06:39
Speaker 1: Oh, you can, well, that's the idea. We're not sitting here stripping off fucking band-aids that have been stuck there for 20 years.
00:06:47
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:06:47
Speaker 1: And they're stuck there for a reason. Like you don't want to see the infected shit. Yeah. You know, that's under there. This is an analogy. I know it's gross. It is disgusting, but I get it. But you do, I can't explain how even being able to laugh about something that hurts so much. I think, I think the relief that can give someone to, To be proud of your maturity. Yeah. And be proud of where you are at this moment because I was utterly enthralled and I was, I forgot we were here doing this until I heard some sniffles in the audience. And because I was engaged and I wanted to know more and I'd never seen you like this, you know, I love like going down.
00:07:29
Speaker 2: I don't think anyone like really, except my very close friends and family have ever seen me like that. So.
00:07:34
Speaker 1: But that's the point. We all, the thing is though, we're not special, like no disrespect. We aren't, we're two women, I think, and everything that we experience on a macro level, like, oh, well, your divorce was different because, you know, everyone read about it. Why is that different to the everyday experience? We're all the celebrity of our own life. Yeah. We all live a little more publicly than we ever used to. Yeah. Even if you're not on social media, you have your communities and people talk, people learn things and walking into a hall of people that you've known your whole life and knowing that they know things about you. private life or your pain is on display, whether that's a family disintegrating, whether that's addiction, whether that's trauma that resurfaces. Like every woman standing in that hall has her own treasure trove. Yeah. And that's what I just find of absolute shit. But fascinating.
00:08:29
Speaker 2: Fascinating shit, but shit all the same.
00:08:30
Speaker 1: Think about, right, do you ever go to your comments and go, oh, this is a really good place to have a really in-depth discussion? No, no, no, no, no. We do it in DMs. Yeah. Someone will reach out and go- Hey, Pheebs, like you being able to laugh and separate this memory from the worst of your life. I went, yeah, I can do that too. It's okay to talk about this. And like, it sounds so cliche to not feel shame, but oh my God, the feeling of being thrown away or ashamed or dirty or failing or used. It's so fucking universal.
00:09:04
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:09:04
Speaker 1: And I think just someone taking the time, Hannah. to pick up their phone after listening to us throw, you know, what's the expression? Like, shoot the shit. Oh, yeah, yeah. Kind of shoot the shit together. Were you going to say throw shit at the wall? Yeah. I hope it's true. I need some more shit metaphors. Anyway, my point is, like, but how good does that feel to know someone's picked up their phone? Yeah. They've heard you say something.
00:09:29
Speaker 3: Yeah.
00:09:30
Speaker 1: It's landed somewhere for them. I know.
00:09:32
Speaker 2: Well, I'm so nervous because, you know, the episode– And that hasn't dropped yet.
00:09:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. So I'm very nervous of, you know. Reaction.
00:09:43
Speaker 2: Reaction. Because I think as well, like when you are, like when you get thrown things like, oh, you're a shit chief stew, you're like, oh, cool. Like, I really don't fucking care.
00:09:52
Speaker 1: Do you know how many times I was watching that? I just, I wanted like a team Hannah t-shirt. I had to fast forward sometimes when you got in trouble.
00:09:57
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:09:59
Speaker 1: No, but it's like when you.
00:10:00
Speaker 2: Like not personal, like I just, I kind of don't care what you think.
00:10:03
Speaker 1: You're like, oh, you're a slut. You're like, cool. Yeah.
00:10:05
Speaker 2: And I had a great time being one.
00:10:07
Speaker 1: Leave me alone. Oh my God. I think I've said this to you before. My dad used to say growing up when people who don't know you criticize you, it's more about them.
00:10:15
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:10:16
Speaker 1: You can't do anything about that. Yeah. When someone who knows you or loves you criticizes you, then you've got a fucking problem. It's very different, yeah.
00:10:22
Speaker 2: But even as well, I think on this subject, if I get criticized, I probably won't deal with it that well. And I'm like so happy because I'm going to be in D.C. and not with my husband and child. So I'll just feel like in the corner of my hotel room rocking back and forth crying instead of like at home.
00:10:40
Speaker 1: So, yeah, really pumped about that. But you can always close your eyes, you know, and be in D.C. and be far away because– I think you should be nothing but fucking proud because I am. Yeah. And look, I'm not going to crawl up your butt, but I think I would say, Hannah, that if there was anything upsetting in terms of reaction from people outside of your immediate circle. Yeah. Babe, it's so much more about them. It just is. No, I know.
00:11:07
Speaker 2: I know.
00:11:07
Speaker 1: But I appreciate that that's when it's the unknown. Yeah, I know. But that's why we've got this couch. Exactly.
00:11:14
Speaker 2: I'm kind of in it with you. We've got some more headlines this week.
00:11:18
Speaker 1: Yeah. Which I'm excited about. Okay.
00:11:22
Speaker 2: Some unhinged ones. Well, I have some unhinged ones for you.
00:11:25
Speaker 1: Oh, really? From my life? You found something unhinged? Oh, shocking. It's crazy. Because the environment is very....
00:11:32
Speaker 2: I was reading, you know, one of the articles and it's like the environment is very.
00:11:41
Speaker 1: kind of culty in some ways, right? Do you mean which side of it?
00:11:46
Speaker 2: The, like the NRL side of things. It's very like protective and culty and like you have to follow these rules and live this way.
00:11:56
Speaker 1: You're in or you're out. Yeah. Yeah.
00:11:59
Speaker 2: So was there a point where you went, like, was there like this cutoff from you being in and then you're out or was it like a gradual thing?
00:12:08
Speaker 1: I perceive it as a woman who would have swallowed anything to protect her family is how I see it. And it's really hard not to judge myself when I look back.
00:12:20
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:12:21
Speaker 1: Because all I want to do is go, you fucking idiot. It's so fucking obvious. Why didn't you run? Why didn't you grab those kids and fucking just get out of there? It should be so easy, but it's not. And Lisa Wilkinson wrote an article actually, and it was quite heady. It was brilliant. It was really considered. And she wrote about when something happens publicly and there's male behavior, and I think, you know, we've all lived in Australia for a long time. Anytime poor behavior hits the headlines, you know, Sydney Swans, we're very quick to defend, you know, athletes, sportsmen, people that we know and love and we think we understand. And I've been in that as well. And she wrote an article about how it's usually oftentimes, and she supported this theory, a woman who's answering for the behavior of a man in her life. So when something happened over here, I remember going to a fitting with Elliot Garner, who's a good friend of mine, and I was doing some work with Colgate and the races at the time. I was sort of 20-something weeks pregnant with Billy when this started happening. And, you know, I was excited to wear this little outfit we'd put together. It was a lovely escape for my brain. And I was going to this appearance. And the morning of, I got a call from Sharon, who's a dear friend and sort of, you know, manager slash friend. who I've been with for decades, and she's something, she's like a pillar for me. She's something I go to when I can't read it. My emotions are too big to understand it or whatever. And she said, Phoebe, you cannot go out there today. She wrote me a message saying, this is just disgusting. There was this throng of people just waiting to get that picture of someone who's shown up to go to work, or heaven forbid, to show a face and smile, to get the photo, to put something horrific next to it. even if it's dressed up as something lovely.
00:14:22
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:14:23
Speaker 1: And it was just this after this, after every headline was looking to me. And it was like, I was this sideshow to show what was cracking. Anyway, I wrote to Lisa Wilkinson. This is how fiercely protective I was at that point. I basically wrote her this message, a how dare you message. I'm not a victim. How dare you say I'm a victim? Yeah. It was really, I went for her. And she was so fucking kind. Yeah. She absolutely copped it, but she was looking after me. She was standing up. She was standing up for you. She was defending me. And I told her to fuck off. And I'll never forget seeing her again on the set of like this other thing that we then did. And I saw her face and I just ran over and gave her the biggest cuddle.
00:15:08
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:15:09
Speaker 1: I remember just saying to her, fuck, you were so right. I get it. And it's that, that feeling of rinsing away that place that you'd been in and believed in so hard for so long.
00:15:19
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:15:20
Speaker 1: And that was the moment. It was just a really good indication of how far and how hard I worked to get my brain from one place to another. And instead of, I think everyone wanted me to, you know, berate these women that were on the other side of things that were part of this narrative. But all I felt was a desire to see if they were okay. Yeah. Because it felt Every single person on the periphery or who dragged into what was going on was feeling it and just being pummeled again and again. And there was this delight in that. The only thing I think that really helped media-wise was I've worked in media forever and that's the one thing I had that other people didn't. I think that gave me an ability to distance or detach. Detach yourself from it, yeah. And then when I needed to lean on stuff that I knew how to do. you know, call people who were there and I could detach a little bit from the emotion of it. And I've written stories like that. So I think I detach from myself as the subject of those stories. It seems like you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. One of the headlines that like made me like kind of internally eye roll was and probably externally as well, to be fair, was like. I love your eye rolls. Oh, what to do. When they're on your side. Yeah, exactly.
00:16:38
Speaker 2: Like what to do if your ex-husband has a baby or something or has a new baby.
00:16:43
Speaker 1: Do nothing.
00:16:44
Speaker 2: And it's like, okay, so now you're criticizing her for not doing anything.
00:16:49
Speaker 1: But it's not. They would say, well, we're not criticizing you. That's, we're just saying, we're just saying that was a lovely way to handle it. It's like, no, you found a right around because I knew that what was happening over here, you were going to find a way to drag. And I know you're going to find a way to drag me in and get an extra little story out of it because you can, right?
00:17:08
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:17:08
Speaker 1: Because I've done that. Yeah. Like, you know, I've given a story legs. I've, you know, brought to, I want to feel some nodding from producers. Like you can, you can bring things together. And I think it's just one of those other links that attaches you to someone or something for such a long time. And that one was one where I like, yes, I roll energy. It was the biggest, like I said, oh, for fuck sake. I've literally done nothing. Nothing. And people wonder why you hide away because, and why women have the need to be, just make yourself smaller and smaller and smaller because you're less of a target. Yeah. And that one, I just remember thinking, mate, that is not play on. What the fucking fuck? I did nothing. Yeah. So that you guys could enjoy and let that sit there. That is not my story. Yeah. I, and I don't want to come out and say, I wish you well, because that's a story. Yeah.
00:18:02
Speaker 2: That's going to be manipulated as well. And like.
00:18:04
Speaker 1: Not even that. I just thought for women, like I said, not for women, for all women, it's impossible. Yeah. Like it's the Barbie speech all over again. Yeah. When I think about how other women have to go through this without, you know, 10 years behind a media desk. Mm. where I understood a little bit.
00:18:21
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:18:21
Speaker 1: Imagine not having that. It is so personal when your children's pictures are put next to the worst thing to happen to you in your life. You just think, okay, this is out of my head.
00:18:39
Speaker 2: When you were in the media, you said before like you've given stories legs and things like that.
00:18:46
Speaker 1: Not tabloid. You weren't in tabloid, were you? No. Hardcore news, baby. Okay. So I was, so I was at Sydney Uni. Yeah. Getting my degree.
00:18:55
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:18:55
Speaker 1: College. And then your last year, because I got little cute brackets on my degree. It's Bachelor Arts Media Com. The brackets mean like a mini thesis kind of thing.
00:19:04
Speaker 2: Okay.
00:19:05
Speaker 1: And I had, sorry, I'd got an internship at Sky News in the press gallery. And then I'd met a few people at Channel 7. Yeah. And, you know, I'd work for free. I'd do extra days. I'd just show up. And... Yeah. The seven newsroom were like, come on, we'll give you 20 bucks an hour over the 2010 election, Gillard Abbott. Oh yeah. And I was laughing at it. Like I just, you know, I'd, I'd, you know, um, what do you call it? Transcribe all the interviews. I'd go do pickups and I'd ask the questions they wanted. And then over time I got picked up to go work in Sydney and I started on updates over the weekend. And so then I got put on the news desk and we look after the news component on Sunrise. Okay. So Nat Barr, who always read the news, who's now a dear friend, like life, right? I would be her little AP, her little producer. yeah so I'd get into work at like 11 o'clock at night I'd work That whole shift, we'd have, you know, Chris Reason at London Olympics. Yeah. You know, Osama Bin Laden. We'd have Ant Cox over for the Vatican. You'd have four screens. Yeah. I'd be calling, yeah, I've seen a car crash. Anyone die? Nope, nope, don't want the vision. Yeah.
00:20:05
Speaker 2: You know, like. Yeah.
00:20:06
Speaker 1: Did you love it?
00:20:07
Speaker 2: I loved it.
00:20:08
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that's what makes you really good at criticism now. Yeah. Like in the newsroom, sink or swim.
00:20:14
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:20:14
Speaker 1: That's why I love people who've also been raised on news. It is just, it is what it is. Yeah. But also there's creativity and adrenaline. Like I wouldn't get up to pee. It'd be like suddenly the sun was up and I'm writing the last updates. And if there were bushfires, I'd be there till two in the afternoon. Yeah. But I'd go home at like 11 in the morning maybe. And I'd go home, change, go to uni, do my classes. Yeah. Get back in the afternoon, sleep. And go to work at night.
00:20:40
Speaker 2: Oh, my gosh.
00:20:41
Speaker 1: And I had a segment on Channel 9.
00:20:43
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:20:43
Speaker 1: And I think that's when I'd started dating him. And one of the first people I told was Pete Overton because I'm at Channel 9 and it's all the journos are in there. And it was one of them that broke the first sort of sign that we were seeing each other. Yeah. So I had this like weird perspective where I knew these reporters and journos. Yeah. And I was within. Did you ever have like.
00:21:07
Speaker 2: I guess, fights with like your friends about what they were riding or what they were airing?
00:21:11
Speaker 1: Never. You know what this is like. Yeah. If that would always come back to bite you. The way to fight is just by not talking to you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Like respect begets respect. Yeah. And a lot of them, look, a lot of them knew me and knew my family and had known me for years.
00:21:30
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:21:30
Speaker 1: And so. But they're just doing their jobs. Yeah. Put it this way. No, I didn't know anyone at the Daily Mail. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
00:21:38
Speaker 2: They tend to have like the worst headlines.
00:21:40
Speaker 1: But it means you can, I won't act like, you know, I didn't get my, not hands dirty in that way, but you know, I wasn't utterly helpless in that respect. It was horrific because of what it was about, but I was able to cling to some life rafts, keep my head above water and feel in control in some way by having conversations, whether I was, you know, I had given a heads up. Yeah. Shari Markson was the one who ended up With Claire Harvey, who's one of the best human beings and journalists I know over at The Australian. They became lifelong friends, Jess Calleran as well, who's a sports writer, because they came to me and said, we know you after things went public, which was not my decision, not my expectation. And I did that story with them. Yeah. Which was gorgeous. I thought that was really, you didn't like it? No, no, I did. It's just. it's really sad. Yeah. You know, but it gave me, I don't know, it turned utter like grief into something that felt solid, which was really helpful because I was disappearing.
00:22:47
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:22:48
Speaker 1: It's funny.
00:22:48
Speaker 2: Cause like you're a few years younger than me. Thank you.
00:22:51
Speaker 1: And I wasn't, see, I wasn't wrong.
00:22:54
Speaker 2: I'm just talking on the birth certificates. Okay.
00:22:56
Speaker 1: Just factual.
00:22:58
Speaker 2: Um, And it's funny because, you know, I read a few comments and I hope you don't mind me saying this. I read a few comments.
00:23:04
Speaker 1: Oh, that's always fun.
00:23:05
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:23:06
Speaker 1: Just like, oh, she.
00:23:07
Speaker 2: Needs to move on or she needs to do this or she needs to do that. And I think the hardest thing is like. You were like, what, 23, 24 when you guys started dating? Like that was around the same time as I joined yachting. And what I've done since I joined yachting is like have six years on a boat. And then I did five years on a TV show. I traveled the world like a million times. I met my husband. I got married.
00:23:32
Speaker 1: I had a kid.
00:23:33
Speaker 2: Like there's, it's when you actually think.
00:23:35
Speaker 1: About it in terms of.
00:23:38
Speaker 2: How young you were, Of course, it's something that has shaped your life. Firstly, you have two kids out of it. And secondly, it started when you were 23. Like I met Josh when I was 31, 32. So I had eight, nine years of life before him that you never had.
00:23:59
Speaker 1: Do you know what I mean? We spent time growing up. Yeah. Yeah. We've kind of grew up together a bit. Yeah. This is the thing, right? It's, If you evade the questions people ask, and I think you accept, we both accept some level and we welcome people being interested. Yeah. That's a compliment. I respect that. I welcome people having an opinion. If it's a shit one, you do not have to rub it in my face. Just keep it to yourself. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know, even though I have meticulously, as I said before, like the pack of wild rice, split my memories so that I can have something from them.
00:24:37
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:24:37
Speaker 1: I'm not going to wipe that memory card. Because I went from having so much planned out. I went from having a set of values that I believed in. It was such a shock. And when Armageddon happened, when your future's annihilated, I think I've said this before. There's an excitement, but there's also paralyzing fear because everything you believed, everything you knew, everything that you were well on track with, you know, this, this bun's coming out. We can't go back in the oven. Like we've, we're way down the line here. What I think was really interesting is because of that, because of where we were, I wasn't making decisions. And this is why I'm so passionate about speaking to younger women who are making choices. I'm looking at you, Sally. about starting families, what I know now, the hindsight I possess, I would have ensured that I was on a lot more equal footing to be able to make decisions about what I wanted for myself as opposed to what I did, which was tread water, survive and take whatever I needed to make sure that I still tried to reach that goal that I thought was so important, a home and a family for the kids. No matter what age you are, I don't know how one reinvents themselves while they're still caretaking. And the most important thing in the world to them comes from all of those decisions that were made then. Everything that I am now, here... has come from those tracks. Yeah. Lovely. If I could say, yes, no, close the book on that one. It's a completely different character this time, Jenny. No, no, no. She's the same girl. Yeah. You can't go back. No. I am going forward. You can move forward.
00:26:30
Speaker 3: Yes.
00:26:30
Speaker 1: You can, but you move forward as this entity that has all of the amazing things and then all of the dark things. Yeah. And then, and all of those things inform my decisions. So if anyone asks now, like I've said before, when do you have a baby? I would say to them, it's amazing to be in love. It's amazing to get married. It's so beautiful. And I'm so happy for you. I'm not jealous of married couples. I am jealous of really good divorces, right? Yeah. Where if I had stopped working, Hannah, if I had made that decision to completely pull back on everything and stop building anything for myself, I can be absolutely honest in telling you that everything that happened after The fire that we walked through, I don't know where I'd be. I don't know where I'd be without that scrap of independence. Yeah. Because staying with someone and raising your children together, that was a dream that I thought was a given in life.
00:27:29
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:27:29
Speaker 1: But it didn't work out that way. No. No. And like there wasn't time to really wallow in that. Yeah. Because it was, you know, baby's coming. You've had this baby. Well, they need a roof over their head. They've got to eat. You can earn the money. Yeah. And so where are you going to live?
00:27:47
Speaker 2: Yeah. Where's seven years, no dating or seven years, no sex and no dating.
00:27:54
Speaker 1: Oh, um, that was a good little turn. Then I was waiting for like the next one on that. And now you've got me. I'm just like, Oh fuck. Yeah. She just got whiplash. But that's what I mean. Like, how can I talk about dating without that person? But also, Phoebe, it's more like, oh, yes, you know, if I was able to still be free and easygoing and like sexy and charming and my place or yours, not my place. I live with my parents. Yeah, but that's okay. So this is the thing. It's different. Of course it's different.
00:28:26
Speaker 2: Just like it would be like if Josh and I split up now, me dating now would be very different to me dating when I met Josh, right?
00:28:34
Speaker 1: Correct.
00:28:34
Speaker 2: So you have different circumstances.
00:28:38
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. And you're in a very different place in your life. Yeah. But just because you live with your parents or you don't live in Sydney. No, that's not what I'm saying. Sorry. It's more so that's like, no, that's almost, I have separated that in my mind. It's something, actually, that's not true, actually. That's probably a lie. The idea of, you know, like when you've caught waves, right? It's been rough surf. You've got yourself in. You go, huh. I got thrown around a bit there, but I'm okay. I'm good. That was a bit hairy. Like, and you lie on the sand and you sunbake for a little bit and you feel a bit less life threatened. Do you risk it and go back in? Correct. However, if I, if I go back to being young, what I risked at 24, 25, it was lower stakes. I will never risk my children not feeling that they are my number one priority. I agree with that. I've struggled to step out and do this one day a week because they are little people and every decision that I made in the wake of whatever happened Was for and about them. Yeah, and I totally agree with you. I don't remember how to make any other decision because it's so direct.
00:29:59
Speaker 2: I agree with you, but the only person that can really make tiny little waves or tiny little steps in a direction is you, right?
00:30:13
Speaker 1: Yeah. So....
00:30:18
Speaker 2: Have you had the conversation in your head? Oh, yes. Have you had that conversation with yourself of it's been seven years?
00:30:27
Speaker 1: How long are we going to go? See, inherently that question suggests that I'm missing something. I'm not. I could go forever.
00:30:38
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:30:38
Speaker 1: Because I've forgotten. Oh, it sounds a bit. I don't know how to articulate it. I. I don't know what it's like to want something or to have something that doesn't serve the goal that I have in mind, which is giving the kids everything that they fucking deserve in life.
00:31:01
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:31:01
Speaker 1: Because that's up to me. Yeah.
00:31:03
Speaker 2: Right.
00:31:03
Speaker 1: So I'd have to be on very, very stable footing and it would have to be something really great, really exciting that came along. I don't even know if I'm saying this right. The way I would talk about dating is by having fun with the topic with you.
00:31:19
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:31:20
Speaker 1: It's not something that I would sort of sit and say. It's not something you want to do. Oh, well, Phoebe, you're not in love because you haven't gone looking for it.
00:31:26
Speaker 2: I'm not talking about love. I'm just talking about dating.
00:31:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, but every second, like I have to work. I just, I sound like I'm whinging and I don't want to sound like I'm whinging. Every minute that I have, I have to ask someone to give me that minute. If I'm here, I've asked a favor to be here. I need mom and dad to look after the kids. If I'm not at school to pick them up, I'm one person. It changes things. And I'm not complaining about single moms because they do it. They get it done. They get shit done. But I think you sacrifice things because they're not inherently necessary. And we are at a level of happiness that I could go on with forever. It would be so lovely. to fall in love with someone, but I genuinely don't know what that looks like. Yeah. I don't know what that looks like for the kids. My biggest fear is that they would feel in any way second to anything. Yeah. Which I just won't do. Yeah. Ever. Yeah. That's fair. That's my non-negotiable.
00:32:25
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:32:26
Speaker 1: If that makes sense. Yeah. Even like, and then I guess, because I'd want to talk about dating in a fun way because I don't have the capacity to think about it in a serious way yet. I don't. I have not been on one date. I have not messaged someone. That's how high the wall is, right?
00:32:41
Speaker 2: And that's what I'm saying is I don't think that like, I don't think your next move is, hey, let's try and find our next Mr.
00:32:49
Speaker 1: Forever. Do you know how many times I get asked, when's it happening? People are waiting to write that headline. And the number of women who write to me saying, fuck, I feel like a loser. I haven't repartnered. There was something wrong with me. Yeah, but it's not about that.
00:33:06
Speaker 2: No.
00:33:06
Speaker 1: That literally does not matter to me.
00:33:08
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:33:09
Speaker 1: That's how far up the priority for the kids is.
00:33:11
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:33:12
Speaker 1: Why would I do anything that took me away? If I go away, they go with me. Yeah. If they go away, I go with them. Yeah. Poppy's going for three days riding with my mum. And, like, that's so great, but that's not the normal. Like, Billy and I are going to throw a fucking party at home. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Like, our dynamic is so set. We don't have that separation between– Parents and kids, you know, say, okay, mom and dad time. We're having a wine. Like, we're watching this.
00:33:38
Speaker 2: Off to your rooms.
00:33:39
Speaker 1: Literally in our house. I'm one of the three. Like, I'm the kiddies.
00:33:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're at the kids' table at dinner. Okay.
00:33:46
Speaker 1: So headline. Yeah. Phoebe. It's time to drop the surname. I know we have history. Who? It says, I know we have history. Writes. The journalist. No, fuck it. She wrote it. What's her name? Jana Hocking.
00:34:04
Speaker 2: But calling yourself Mrs Burgess after Sam remarried just isn't a good look.
00:34:08
Speaker 1: Who's Yana Hawking?
00:34:10
Speaker 3: She's the one that rage baited and wrote the headline that was like Phoebe Burgess, why don't you change your name? I know we've got history.
00:34:19
Speaker 1: She's got a history because she shagged Sam. Okay. And you told me that she'd called the paps or something. No. She was the one I was doing the podcast with. I showed up at the races to do a job. And someone, Hannah Heinrich, ran up to me and said, like, I don't know her personally. I've never met this person. No, you don't.
00:34:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was explained about the podcast situation.
00:34:46
Speaker 1: Oh, my God, that's the same person. Yes, the fuck?
00:34:49
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:34:50
Speaker 1: I was like, I feel like I'm going crazy here. Can we keep this part in, please? You have to keep this in. I don't know this woman from a bar of motherfucking soap. Isn't that quite funny? Do you know what? The ones, the ones like, she was not one I would have called and see if she was okay.
00:35:05
Speaker 2: Not. Sorry.
00:35:06
Speaker 1: Oh my God. So this is the girl. So she was doing this podcast with you. This is the one. She wrote that. Yeah. Obviously before. Okay. There's been a few of them. That's all right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then, okay.
00:35:18
Speaker 2: Okay.
00:35:18
Speaker 1: Sharon said one of the Daily Mail girls. This man fucked. It is insane. Don't you find it funny though? He went to find blonde journalists after a divorce. Yeah. One after the other.
00:35:28
Speaker 3: It's a type thing, isn't it?
00:35:29
Speaker 1: Oh, my God. No. No, it shouldn't be. Because I was not his type when we met.
00:35:35
Speaker 3: Familiarity.
00:35:36
Speaker 1: Oh, my God. Okay. Here's some friendly. That's why I moved to the Highlands, Hannah. Yeah. Things don't find you down there. It's a bit like, you know, Bridgerton. That's what it feels like. Yeah. You go down. Like, yes, we have electricity. Yeah. But stuff, like, trickles down a lot slower. So, Bridgerton.
00:35:52
Speaker 2: How do you feel when you've got these journalists?
00:35:55
Speaker 1: Read it, read it, read it, read it. Okay, so give it to me again. Now that I've got... Does anyone have a photo of her? Honestly, I could not pick this woman out in a line-up. Yeah. Just to see if we've ever met. I don't think you've met. I don't want to be unkind, but she said we have history. I think.
00:36:12
Speaker 3: Isn't that not referencing her sleeping with Sam, though?
00:36:14
Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh, I hope so, because we haven't met. Never met this woman.
00:36:21
Speaker 2: No, she's saying we have history because I think she was papped with Sam.
00:36:27
Speaker 1: Oh, okay. So that's not, so we don't have history. No, she has history with him, I guess. Yeah. So that's, okay. Getting on my toots. Right. Well, I'll just say like off the bat, Jana, we don't have history. Okay. So I'm a little bit dubious about this headline. Go on, dear friend. Okay. Heads up. Come on. Okay, now.
00:36:44
Speaker 2: Phoebe, it's time to drop the surname. I know we have history, writes Jenna Hocking, but calling yourself Mrs. Burgess after Sam remarried just isn't a good look. Here's some friendly advice.
00:36:55
Speaker 1: Do you know what, like, rises up in me with that? We don't have history, but coming from my name, don't get that close to my children. Yeah. It'll end you. Yeah. That's the rage I feel. Think of a fucker you fuck, babe. Yeah. All credit to you. But I know that I had to have a few. tests is that credit though when you know some things to put yourself in that position that's the kind of motives that i will never ever engage with something like that yeah Imagine like, so this, okay, I understand it now. So I showed up to a race day at Crown, right? All dressed up, I was there for work. Okay, I don't think I should go to race days. I think I have to.
00:37:35
Speaker 2: I'm like, is this the second story we've heard about a bad race day today?
00:37:39
Speaker 1: This one was in Melbourne. This went on for years. It's a saga. And a friend ran up and when you go to these things, you know, like I go with everyone there. Everyone's lovely. The Melbourne crew are so divine. And Like being a cat amongst the pigeons, it's not cool. Yeah. It's not the intention. No one will happily watch you embarrass yourself or be put on a plate or in front of, you know, photographers or speak to people, which is your job on those days, without whispering in your ear, hey, you were right. Do you want me to come with you? It was one of the kindest things anyone's ever done. And then I said, what's going on? What's going on? And they read the headline to me and apparently... This headline? Yes. Yeah. That's why I know about it. Okay. But there is no way I would read it. Yeah. Like... You can write that.
00:38:22
Speaker 2: There's no way I can read it because I don't pay the dollar a month or whatever.
00:38:25
Speaker 1: Oh, well, honey, don't waste a dollar.
00:38:27
Speaker 2: I won't, trust me.
00:38:28
Speaker 1: I wouldn't. No. With respect to the publication. You can buy like a can of coffee for that. Yeah. Or just like go into the comment section on any basic bitch article and it'll be pretty much that. It'll be there. But do you know what I mean? Like to associate yourself with someone and suggest that you have any inkling or understanding of what you are saying. Yeah. You think it's cute. because you dipped your toe into my world for a minute for a headline. I judge that behavior in terms of you can do what you would like. Do not drag my name because it is mine. At what point does a woman own her name? When are we allowed to own our identity? We were adults and we made a decision. I thought about keeping my byline, my email in the end of it, like He didn't like that. I wasn't really allowed. I don't know how to say it, but we didn't all have different names on our passports. We all had the same name. Yeah. We were a family.
00:39:23
Speaker 2: Right.
00:39:24
Speaker 1: And that was a conscious decision. Yeah. I had to, I know you hate admin and we've spoken about it before. I did the admin. I made sure it was all done. Everyone was happy. I kept my email as one little like flag. And I think the idea that as soon as something goes wrong, you have to hand back something that what you borrowed for a minute and go back to belonging to your dad and Yeah, it's very weird. Are we loaning our names or can't we accept that you've become a certain person, an identity? That's who I am. Yeah. It's not perfect. Yeah. It doesn't match what I thought it would be. I'm sorry, journalist whom I do not know. It doesn't match what you expect. Yeah. But to suggest that that's in any way uncool, I find a really basic understanding of what identity means. crisis you go through when your world falls apart and you'll do anything to hang on to something that feels solid. And to turn around and look at my babies and say, we don't belong together because that's how it felt. When you're unmoored and everything's drifting apart, you'll have anything that holds you together. I don't want to be at school when they say, oh, Poppy Burgess, Billy Burgess, well done, and then be identified differently. You need every ounce of stability and I'm proud of our name. We are a three. We are not missing anything. Yeah. I'm not returning anything. I am actually Ms. Not Mrs. I just cannot for the life of me change it on fucking Instagram. I've tried like underscores and everything. So if that's the beef, I get it. That's more like admin basicness. There's no other good name with it. So I just left it what it was. But I think that we can associate so much weight to something and project that onto someone else. Yeah. We don't have history and you should be really grateful that you don't have my history in the way that you think that you relate to me. Yeah. And I just, it's so symbolic of like how often we judge people without understanding what we are saying. Yeah. And how painful that can be. Yeah. Because trust me, when you are unmoored like that, I would love to go back in time and have made sure that my footing was more solid. I would love to go back in time and have kept, you know, my last name is my middle name. There are a million, there are a million things I would have done utterly differently. But that's a beautiful thing. Yeah. But you also accept what I'm proud of when I look at that name is that I accept all the responsibility and all the choices that I made. That made me a mum of two amazing kids.
00:42:08
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:42:09
Speaker 1: And we're the Burgesses. Yeah. And I want them to always be proud of that. Yeah. I want them to know they came from choice. We chose them. We wanted them. We loved them. And that doesn't waver for me. Yeah. I back it all the way.
00:42:21
Speaker 2: I think it's extremely strange to expect a woman to change her surname from her children's surname. Like, I just think that's so weird.
00:42:29
Speaker 1: Look, and if they have the same name as one last parent who's there, all, like, Who is parenting. Yeah. Maybe. Everyone has all of their reasons.
00:42:40
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:42:40
Speaker 1: But it is something that people have been utterly obsessed with. I know. But like it's such a weird obsession. Imagine what it feels like to keep that name some days. But I'm just choosing to be proud of it.
00:42:53
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:42:54
Speaker 1: What the fuck else can I do? No, exactly. Speaking of unhinged journalists. Oh, yeah. What have you got for me? So apparently you used a sperm donor. Oh, for John. For Ava. Seriously? What? I did not read the whole article.
00:43:10
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:43:10
Speaker 1: Because I need you to tell me what this was about.
00:43:13
Speaker 2: No. So it was insane. It was like Josh was super private.
00:43:16
Speaker 1: Yeah. I didn't post anything about him.
00:43:19
Speaker 2: And then one morning I woke up and there was an article about how Josh didn't exist. And I'd used a sperm donor from one of the guys from Southern Charm to get pregnant.
00:43:30
Speaker 1: And I just made Josh up.
00:43:32
Speaker 2: I was like, and I said to Josh, I was like, babe, It's actually getting to be a bigger deal, me not posting a photo of you.
00:43:39
Speaker 1: Can I just post a photo of you? Right. Because he was, okay. Yes. Because Josh didn't exist. So they thought that you were, during filming, that you were calling, like, your cleaner, pretending it was Josh. Because you were on the phone, remember, during the filming? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Josh didn't actually sign the email.
00:43:55
Speaker 2: Well, because you never heard Josh's voice or saw his photo because he didn't sign it. After how it had ended, he didn't sign the release to allow his voice and photo to be used on the show.
00:44:05
Speaker 1: Nice little flex, Josh. I know, right? Yeah, yeah. I was proud of him. So, yeah, I guess I could have.
00:44:09
Speaker 2: Just made him up and got artificially inseminated by a Southern charm. Why the fuck would I do a Southern charm?
00:44:14
Speaker 1: Do you know what? I was honestly thinking the other day about my ovaries and it's a very arduous process getting some sperm. So- I can imagine that it's not something you would have just forgotten to declare. No, no.
00:44:28
Speaker 2: So I literally said to Josh, I was like, I'm posting a photo. I don't care if you like it or not. I cannot have these rumors swirling about me.
00:44:34
Speaker 1: It's true. You'll get the conspiracy nuts doing like a mock-up of Ava's face. Side by side, yeah. They're like, which Southern charm? Got Craig, Austin.
00:44:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know.
00:44:44
Speaker 1: It's crazy. I'm actually very excited. to see what headlines come up next because I think for the first time in a really long time, at least, we are putting the words in our mouth. Yeah, exactly. No, that's true. And we've landed ourselves in it. We'll probably fuck it up worse than the journalists. Finally, we have Aisha, you share, what are we doing this week, Sally?
00:45:07
Speaker 3: So it's obviously the school holidays, so most unhinged thing that's happened this week.
00:45:11
Speaker 1: Launching a podcast during school holidays? What were we thinking?
00:45:14
Speaker 2: Okay, I've actually got a good one for that. I took Ava to a little boy's birthday party on Saturday morning. She has been going around school telling people that we're going to Thailand for her birthday. There's going to be fireworks and she's been making invitations and giving them to her friends at school to her birthday. We're going to Thailand for my 40th birthday. She is a queen.
00:45:43
Speaker 1: I love her. Your friends are not invited. She's hijacked it.
00:45:47
Speaker 2: She's completely, she goes, Mum, how about we just share it, okay?
00:45:53
Speaker 1: She's been listening.
00:45:54
Speaker 2: So even when I talk to her about it, she's like, fine, we'll compromise. I will share my Thailand birthday party with you.
00:46:01
Speaker 1: I love the child that you are raising. So that was quite unhinged.
00:46:04
Speaker 2: And now I have to go around being like, oh, yeah, no, you're not invited to Thailand.
00:46:09
Speaker 1: Do you have mums coming up going, oh, little Johnny's just come home, so are you paying for these flights or will there be childcare? You can't eat Oreos. Yeah, exactly. Have you got a nanny organised? Okay, on my end, unhinged, I'm going to go with, so I've been sitting here, like you've seen me just every now and then, and I'm like I'm too worried to touch my hair. So I have dandruff at the moment and I'm worried every time I move it might be like, and the reason I have dandruff is because for the first time ever, right as we were about to start recording this podcast, my daughter with her 10 kilos of hair down to her waist. No, I already know what you're going to say. Bought lice home. She's nine. I've gone nine years, 10,000 pets, animals in and out of our lives, and not one bit of head lice. I've spent... Like they all tell you to use natural things. Don't do it. Natural things don't work.
00:47:05
Speaker 2: No, you need to bomb that hair.
00:47:08
Speaker 1: And then though, every pharmacy that I went to.
00:47:10
Speaker 2: Oh my God, I've started picturing already.
00:47:14
Speaker 3: I know.
00:47:14
Speaker 1: It was before our photo shoot. Every time we were like posing together. Oh my God. No, but we were done. I was, I had bombed us alive. Like we had done it. I'd done the seven days after, but just that feeling of like, It could come back. Yeah. And being really aware, like that bug before, all I was thinking was like, oh my God. So, um, I have been, it actually takes forever because after you bomb the little fuckers, they, I Googled a picture, they actually hang on to the hair strand. So even when you kill them and even when they've laid there, you have to brush it out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, you have to. So I've just been like this in Poppy's hair. And you can't go halfway. You have to go all the way. So that was a nice little humbling parenting moment. And the funniest part was Poppy got done. Billy went down. I went down. And then my poor beautiful mother, who's allowed us into her home, had to get her very first head lice after 60-something years.
00:48:10
Speaker 2: Well, thanks for sharing because now I'm going to be itching all afternoon and be so paranoid.
00:48:15
Speaker 1: I did ask them, I said, what is socially acceptable with lice? Like how far after you've been infected or infested with them? And they were like, once you've done the bomb and then the seven-day follow-up. So I've done it correctly. Okay. But that would have been an awkward start. Oh, that would have been.
00:48:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, you would have, I would have, one of us would be looking for a new podcast host if I took lice home.
00:48:34
Speaker 1: I swear to God. I should have done a slick black bun. I'm so sorry.
00:48:37
Speaker 2: Thank you guys for listening. Make sure you send us any unhinged stories. Send us any stories about school holidays. Send us some funny school holidays stories.
00:48:48
Speaker 1: Because every mom, like that first day of holidays, you become, you know, like one of those entertainment cruise ship directors. Yes. With the clipboard. Yes. They wake up and they're like, oh, mom, are we having waffles and pancakes? And then are we like, have you got the slip and slide and this out? Oh, yeah. And you look at them like, what the fuck do you think this is? Yeah. No, no.
00:49:05
Speaker 2: I brought that on myself because I do that. Make sure you send them to at Overshare the podcast. Follow us on TikTok. Like and subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts. And we'll see you guys next week.
00:49:17
Speaker 1: We'll be here. Bye.
