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Welcome to Let's Hear It.
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Let's Hear It is a podcast for
and about the field of foundation
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and nonprofit communications,
produced by its two co-hosts, Eric
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Brown and Kirk Brown, no relation.
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Well said, Eric.
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And I'm Kirk.
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And I'm Eric.
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Let's Hear It is sponsored by the
Prebys Foundation, a foundation
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creating an inclusive, equitable, and
dynamic future for all San Diegans.
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Check out their amazingly good
podcast, Stop & Talk, hosted by
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Grant Oliphant and Crystal Page.
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You can find them at
stopandtalkpodcast.com.
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You can find Let's Hear It on any
podcast subscription platform.
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You can find us online
at letzhearitcast.com.
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And if you like the show, please,
please, please rate us on Apple Podcasts
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so that more people can find us.
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Let's get onto the show.
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Hey, happy summer, almost.
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Actually, it's not.
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You know, it's so counterintuitive,
it's not even quite summer yet.
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It will be summer when this
is dropped, though, right?
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It's just coming right up.
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Any minute now, and then
days will just get s- darker.
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It goes too fast.
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It goes too fast.
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I hate it.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, it goes too fast.
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Can't we plateau?
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Believe me.
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I, you know, and, and a- actually, I've
already achieved my own personal human
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solstice- … and I'm just getting darker.
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Yeah, really.
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I thought you were gonna say
you've achieved, you're just
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a long, bright, sunny day.
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That's what I think
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you are.
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You're just a long, bright,
crystal clear, sunny day.
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Au contraire- Sunny day … mon frere.
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So we're on a very interesting
trajectory with Let's Hear It.
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Aren't we, though?
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And I'm, I'm, I'm getting a little
nervous about it, I have to say.
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I should imagine.
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I, I would think so.
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But, but I think- … what I like about
our conversation today is that we've
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got a real expert on tap to lead us
through this conversation, who comes at
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this with an enormous amount of personal
and individual credibility, both in
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terms of their career trajectory, but
also because of the work they're doing.
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I can't wait for this.
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And, and honestly, I, I know I give you
a hard time, but I think- Yes, you do
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… it's fi- finally I need to say thank you.
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What?
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Thank you for… Because this is such-
… an important and nuanced conversation.
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And by the way, coming from Minnesota, a
state that I'm headed to in a, in about
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two weeks for some, for some family time.
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So tell us all about what we're
about to hear- Okay … 'cause
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this is a great conversation, and I
would dare say incredibly salient,
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incredibly timely for our field.
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I would say I did this for you.
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Because our guest is as Midwestern
nice as a human being could be.
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She- And there's a lot
in there, by the way.
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There's so much in there.
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It's so great.
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There is.
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Her name is Jen Ford Reedy.
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She's the president of the Bush
Foundation in Minnesota, and she,
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she's just written a book called
Please Be Good at Philanthropy.
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That's great.
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Now, obviously we had Glenn Galen on, and
his take was, stop being so sh- you know,
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crappy at philanthropy, and Jen's approach
is please be good at philanthropy.
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It is a Midwestern polite way to talk.
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But the book itself is actually quite
pointed and very straightforward- Mm-hmm
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… about how to do philanthropy well and
what the pitfalls are of doing it poorly.
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And so we had a terrific conversation
that I enjoyed immensely.
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Jen was incredibly fun to talk to.
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And, uh, yeah, I, I, I hope people
get a lot from this conversation.
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And Jen, thank you for
coming on Let's Hear It.
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Jen brings an enormous amount of
credentials to this conversation, not
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just having been at Bush since 2012, but
at the Saint Paul & Minnesota Foundation
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before that, was at McKinsey before that.
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You're about to hear from
top-notch, top-tier leader,
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strategic thinker in this field.
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So this is Jen Ford Reedy,
president of the Bush Foundation.
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We'll listen to Jen on Let's
Hear It, and we'll come back.
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There's a problem hiding in
plain sight in philanthropy.
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Nobody has to be good at it.
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There's no license required, no regulatory
body watching, not really, no market
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that punishes you for doing it badly.
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You can start a foundation, write
some checks, get celebrated for your
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generosity, and never once have to
answer the question, you got a nice
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tax deduction, what did society get?
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My guest today, Jen Ford Reedy, has
spent more than a decade leading
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the Bush Foundation, and she's been
churning over this problem ever since.
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Her new book, Please Be Good at
Philanthropy, is a straightforward,
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respectful call for better philanthropy.
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She argues that good intentions are not
enough, that philanthropy can cause real
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harm when done badly, and that the field
needs to get a lot more honest with itself
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about whether it's actually delivering.
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It's a book for newcomers and veterans
alike, and it's really, really good.
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Jen Ford Reedy, welcome to Let's Hear It.
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Thank you.
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It's lovely to be here.
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I loved that intro.
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I hope I didn't mess up by chuckling
throughout, but No way That was great.
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Very entertaining intro.
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No, we're gonna do laugh
tracks later afterwards.
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Okay.
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We can record laugh tracks at the
end and, and insert them throughout.
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Excellent.
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Excellent.
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Okay.
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Yes, we'll do it.
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So, uh, thank you so much
for coming on the show.
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Now, your book is so perfectly timed.
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I, I believe that we're in some
kind of a, a, a large scale
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conversation about philanthropy.
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We're gonna get into why you wrote this
book and what, what you think people
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really need to take away from it.
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But first I wanna talk to,
about you a little bit.
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Okay.
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You're currently president of a
foundation, but you didn't, you
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know, you weren't born that way.
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Uh, and then professionally, I mean,
you spent, uh, nine years at McKinsey.
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Yes.
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Which seems to have been an interesting
proving ground to learn about the
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wild, wonderful world of philanthropy.
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Can you talk a little
bit about those days?
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Well, I'll just say, I mean, the,
the training you get at McKinsey,
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which is a consulting firm for people
who don't know, so you get to work
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with lots of different kinds of
organizations on lots of different
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kinds of problems, is, is, can be useful
training for a lot of different things.
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I'd also say one thing that
was amazing about getting to
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spend a long time at McKinsey is
that you actually get feedback.
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Like people tell you, are
you good at stuff or not?
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So I was regularly getting
feedback on stuff that I thought
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I was pretty good at, you know?
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And you actually get used to the
idea of like, oh, you always have
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an opportunity to get better.
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You have an opportunity to get better,
you have an opport- And you start
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actually getting kind of addicted
to that idea that you can do better.
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So I think, I think there are parts of
that that are still in me and feeling like
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we don't do that so well in philanthropy.
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But in general, the skillset you
get at, at McKinsey, the ability
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to analyze problems, you know,
something you can use for good or
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for ill, like it's just a skillset.
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Um, and there are a lot of ways
where I've had to build on or, you
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know, shift how I was thinking about
problems coming from that more sort of
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business oriented analytic approach.
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And there were a lot of ways where I
was humbled coming into philanthropy,
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and that's a big part of the book too,
is saying like, if you're coming in,
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you're probably good at something.
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Um, but that doesn't mean you're
just naturally good at philanthropy.
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Well, I think you become a much better
singer and funnier joke teller when
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you come into philanthropy, you know?
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It's extraordinary.
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It's one of the things that gets
in the way of us being good, right?
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Is that for a whole variety of reasons,
we don't get very good, honest feedback.
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Yeah.
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And that's certainly one of them,
that you, you don't wanna bite the
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hand that feeds you or could someday
feed you and Right … so you, you're
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not getting… You have to work hard.
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You have to be intentional and put
effort in if you're actually gonna get
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meaningful feedback that lets you know
whether you're good at what you do or not.
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Well, okay, so I wanna talk about
the Bush Foundation 'cause it, it's
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really a very interesting foundation.
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So the, we say it's not beans, it's
not beer- … and it's not presidents.
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It's a different Bush.
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Our, our Bush is Archie Bush.
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Yeah.
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Who's one of the guys who built
3M into a major corporation.
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He and his wife, Edith, established
the foundation in the '50s,
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and he was truly a good guy.
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Like, we are very lucky in our origin
story, um, that Archie was really a
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generous guy, and he left us with-
Enormous flexibility, like with intention-
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Mm … like in the founding documents
saying that, um, talking about, you know,
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the dead, dead, dead hand of the donor.
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Which if you've used that phrase, it means
you've done some of your research in sort
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of understanding how, how foundations
and trusts can go awry, and he didn't
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want that for the Bush Foundation.
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He wanted us to be relevant and useful.
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And so we have very little
restriction technically.
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Mm. And then a really inspiring donor
example to work from, um, which is a
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lovely place to get to operate from.
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And- Yeah … our orientation is
around problem-solving, so we're not
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organized around specific issues with
specific goals of what we're trying
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to get accomplished in those areas.
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We're- Mm … organized around the
capacity of the communities that we serve
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to solve problems, whatever those problems
are, whatever's important to communities.
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So we work in Minnesota, North Dakota,
South Dakota, and 23 Native nations,
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and really, in a variety of ways,
are just supporting problem-solving
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capacity and then really big-thinking
problem-solving efforts to address issues.
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Right.
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When you first got to the foundation,
obviously you had had insight into
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philanthropy from having worked at a
consultant at, um, at the Death Star.
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Well, maybe some of my best friends work
at McKinsey, but yeah, so it's a model.
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And, and so you had insight, but, but
nobody I think really understands what a
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foundation is like until they're actually
in there and, you know, drinking the
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free drinks from the, you know, the, the
refrigerator and other things like that.
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Yeah.
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I did have a, I did have
a stop in between, where I
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worked at a- Ah … community
foundation, so that helped a lot.
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And so it really helped that I'd worked
in philanthropy before I was the leader
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of a foundation which is remarkably
not the case for- … you know, so
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many people coming into philanthropy.
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Even at the presidential level, it's
like we do not value philanthropic
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experience even in our hiring process.
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So, you know, the number of
people who- whose first gig in
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philanthropy is running a foundation
is, is pretty amazing actually.
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It is.
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We, we actually had two at the Hewlett
Foundation, but they were very impressive.
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You know, they both did it really well.
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They were really smart people,
and they were people with learning
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orientation, both those folks.
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But it is strange.
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It's a strange thing about our field.
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Yeah.
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And, and that's fine.
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I mean, you can have a profession
where there's a bunch of credentials
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before you can work in it, and then,
you know, there are real negatives
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about that in terms of making it
hard to get in, keeping people out.
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And, you know, if you really wanna
have, have a, a field where you
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have true diversity and- Yeah
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of backgrounds and people work
in it, then it's nice not to
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have those barriers to entry.
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But if that's the case, then you've gotta
be great at training people once they
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get in, to have neither of those things,
to have not sort of expectations coming
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in or good support once you get in.
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Means, you know, we're just
all learning on the job.
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Yeah.
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And relearning on the job, right?
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Right.
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As each, each new person comes in, in
a way that makes us, you know, less
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effective as individual practitioners,
less effective as institutions,
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and less effective as a field.
235
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All right.
236
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So you, you come in.
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00:11:11,179 --> 00:11:13,839
Uh, now you're the
president of the foundation.
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00:11:13,849 --> 00:11:13,869
Yeah.
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00:11:14,069 --> 00:11:17,490
So you've worked at a community
foundation, uh, and you also, you
240
00:11:17,490 --> 00:11:19,609
know, w- worked at a consulting firm.
241
00:11:20,019 --> 00:11:23,650
W- how did you think about … Oh,
okay, if I were the president of
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00:11:23,659 --> 00:11:26,830
a foundation, I, I, I don't think
I'd have a clue about what to do.
243
00:11:27,969 --> 00:11:29,690
But you seem to have done
a pretty good job so far.
244
00:11:29,729 --> 00:11:32,990
So how did you find this role, and
how did you find this field once
245
00:11:32,990 --> 00:11:34,479
you were deeply on the inside of it?
246
00:11:34,589 --> 00:11:40,049
Uh, well, I had probably more experience
with philanthropy in general because of
247
00:11:40,049 --> 00:11:43,779
getting to serve a number of foundations
at McKinsey and outside of McKinsey,
248
00:11:43,790 --> 00:11:45,579
and then my foundation experience.
249
00:11:45,719 --> 00:11:46,750
But I also knew Bush.
250
00:11:46,779 --> 00:11:48,829
Like, I'd- Yeah … actually
been a partner with Bush, so it
251
00:11:48,829 --> 00:11:51,880
gave me insight into what I wish
I- Ah … Bush did differently.
252
00:11:52,209 --> 00:11:57,659
Um, you know, because I was in the orbit
and, and actively working in partnership.
253
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There were some things that, to me,
were very clear of a, "Oh, I see
254
00:12:02,599 --> 00:12:04,089
ways that this could be stronger."
255
00:12:04,089 --> 00:12:07,179
And, you know, you come in and you
talk to all the staff, you talk to
256
00:12:07,190 --> 00:12:08,260
stakeholders, you talk to board.
257
00:12:08,269 --> 00:12:10,160
Like, you're going around and
learning, you know, everyone else's
258
00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:12,839
experience, and there were some things
that were very- Mm … um, clear.
259
00:12:13,774 --> 00:12:16,514
There were some things
that were real ahas for me.
260
00:12:16,624 --> 00:12:21,134
Um, and I'll tell you one particular
aha, which is probably, you know,
261
00:12:21,134 --> 00:12:24,474
quite related to coming in with
a McKinsey-esque orientation into
262
00:12:24,474 --> 00:12:29,454
philanthropy, is that, you know, we have
done a Bush Fellows program since 1965.
263
00:12:29,454 --> 00:12:32,553
I mean, way back when Archie Bush was
still here, he designed this program.
264
00:12:32,563 --> 00:12:32,583
Wow.
265
00:12:32,694 --> 00:12:35,044
That was the kind of program he
wished he could have had as a leader.
266
00:12:35,044 --> 00:12:36,543
It's a amazing program.
267
00:12:36,543 --> 00:12:41,333
I'd lo- I mean, it's, it's $150,000
to leaders to invest in themselves.
268
00:12:41,393 --> 00:12:43,043
I mean, it's, it's amazing, right?
269
00:12:43,043 --> 00:12:43,533
This program.
270
00:12:44,053 --> 00:12:47,173
And I came in and thought, "Well,
you know, we've always done that
271
00:12:47,173 --> 00:12:48,363
program, we'll keep doing it."
272
00:12:48,373 --> 00:12:52,393
Like, but it's hard to measure and don't
really know if it's having an impact.
273
00:12:52,403 --> 00:12:53,924
Like, that was kind of
my orientation coming in.
274
00:12:54,333 --> 00:12:56,343
Then I went around the
region talking to people.
275
00:12:56,713 --> 00:13:00,343
Over and over and over, I would run
into people who were Bush Fellows
276
00:13:00,463 --> 00:13:04,564
who would say what a transformational
experience it was, and saying, you
277
00:13:04,564 --> 00:13:08,113
know, "It fundamentally changed what
I thought was possible in my life."
278
00:13:08,213 --> 00:13:11,393
And to me it was kind … Like, hearing
the people say it in the same words
279
00:13:11,423 --> 00:13:17,264
even over and over, I was like, "Oh,
it's hard to measure, but there's
280
00:13:17,264 --> 00:13:20,724
something really powerful there." And I
think part of it is thinking like, "Oh,
281
00:13:20,724 --> 00:13:22,353
we're a place-based foundation, right?
282
00:13:22,354 --> 00:13:23,633
We're this place.
283
00:13:23,704 --> 00:13:29,903
We can only be in this place what the
people in it believe they can be, and
284
00:13:29,903 --> 00:13:34,703
are willing to work to be, and, you know,
have the skills to, to do that work."
285
00:13:34,713 --> 00:13:39,503
And realizing like, "Oh, actually, if
we could do all our grant making in a
286
00:13:39,503 --> 00:13:45,684
way that actually helped people think
bigger about what was possible, that
287
00:13:45,684 --> 00:13:51,423
may be the highest value thing we could
do, even if, you know, that particular
288
00:13:52,143 --> 00:13:55,522
aspect of the work is not measurable.
289
00:13:55,632 --> 00:14:00,552
So it, it was one of my first lessons
in sort of like shifting a, a mind away
290
00:14:00,552 --> 00:14:08,691
from a d- a definition of impact that
limits you in ways that undervalue, in
291
00:14:08,692 --> 00:14:12,022
some ways, the, the spiritual parts of
the work, which are sometimes- Mm-hmm
292
00:14:12,022 --> 00:14:12,842
the most powerful, right?
293
00:14:12,842 --> 00:14:16,062
It's the hearts and minds and, and
belief- Yeah … part of the work.
294
00:14:16,162 --> 00:14:16,852
Yeah, for sure.
295
00:14:17,232 --> 00:14:18,121
Well, you know, it's interesting.
296
00:14:18,121 --> 00:14:21,931
My old boss, Larry Kramer, at Hewlett,
which was a very analytic place- Yeah
297
00:14:21,941 --> 00:14:26,071
… he absolutely warned against the precision
of numbers, the, the, what do you call,
298
00:14:26,071 --> 00:14:27,972
the f- the false precision of numbers.
299
00:14:28,031 --> 00:14:30,691
I mean, you could come up with an
expected return of some kind of investment
300
00:14:30,692 --> 00:14:33,401
or something like that, and it was a
number, it had a decimal point in it.
301
00:14:33,411 --> 00:14:33,431
Yeah.
302
00:14:33,431 --> 00:14:34,951
And you're like, you know, uh, whatever.
303
00:14:35,542 --> 00:14:38,082
But, you know, sometimes we also
have to fall back on the, the old
304
00:14:38,082 --> 00:14:41,411
Potter Stewart thing, which is, you
know, we'll know it when we see it.
305
00:14:41,492 --> 00:14:43,122
But- Know it when you see it … what
I think that your point is that
306
00:14:43,122 --> 00:14:45,641
you're also telling stories about
the effects of the grants and the
307
00:14:45,652 --> 00:14:46,871
people who participated in them.
308
00:14:47,132 --> 00:14:47,332
Yeah.
309
00:14:47,332 --> 00:14:50,022
A- and that kind of communications
component is important.
310
00:14:50,022 --> 00:14:50,281
Yeah.
311
00:14:50,481 --> 00:14:52,472
And we- we'll get to that in a minute.
312
00:14:52,521 --> 00:14:55,671
But I wanna turn to the book,
because first of all, it
313
00:14:55,671 --> 00:14:57,292
is a very Midwestern title.
314
00:14:57,851 --> 00:15:00,411
Um, Please Be Good at Philanthropy.
315
00:15:02,062 --> 00:15:05,632
That is published by a not so,
yeah- Please … not so Midwestern-
316
00:15:05,632 --> 00:15:08,612
Please … sounding publisher called
Disruption Books, which I also find
317
00:15:08,612 --> 00:15:10,241
to be an elegant partnership there.
318
00:15:10,801 --> 00:15:13,331
You start this book by saying
that the field is, and in a
319
00:15:13,331 --> 00:15:17,581
very polite way, under-oriented
toward being good at what we do.
320
00:15:18,132 --> 00:15:19,031
We're falling short.
321
00:15:19,331 --> 00:15:23,291
What do you say the most common ways
that foundations fall short are?
322
00:15:23,681 --> 00:15:30,770
I mean, I think- In really fundamental
ways, we don't have definitions of what
323
00:15:30,770 --> 00:15:32,410
it means for us to be good at our jobs.
324
00:15:32,959 --> 00:15:33,819
I mean, we just don't.
325
00:15:33,899 --> 00:15:37,390
It's that fundamental that I
think, you know, the question
326
00:15:37,390 --> 00:15:38,800
is, are you good at philanthropy?
327
00:15:39,189 --> 00:15:39,930
How do you know?
328
00:15:39,939 --> 00:15:39,969
Yes.
329
00:15:40,740 --> 00:15:44,979
And there are a whole bunch of reasons why
those are really hard to answer questions.
330
00:15:45,050 --> 00:15:46,439
We've already alluded to some of them.
331
00:15:47,050 --> 00:15:49,679
Um, you know, it's also hard
because we're trying to do things
332
00:15:49,679 --> 00:15:50,699
that are hard to measure, right?
333
00:15:50,729 --> 00:15:57,560
But, but in a very basic sense, we
don't have a performance management
334
00:15:57,569 --> 00:16:03,029
mindset or performance improvement
mindset in a way that's really basic
335
00:16:03,039 --> 00:16:04,569
for other kinds of organizations.
336
00:16:04,569 --> 00:16:06,949
And there are parts of this book where
I thought, oh, if you're really coming
337
00:16:06,959 --> 00:16:10,290
in from outside of philanthropy, you'll
read it and just be like, "Well, yeah.
338
00:16:10,719 --> 00:16:15,009
Sure." "Definitely you should do that."
And I was like, no, actually in our
339
00:16:15,129 --> 00:16:18,189
field, this is not what we normally do.
340
00:16:18,209 --> 00:16:19,660
This is not how it happens.
341
00:16:19,660 --> 00:16:23,619
And I think there are all different
reasons for that, like, you know,
342
00:16:24,169 --> 00:16:28,079
trying to measure ourselves based on
the impact we have out in the world,
343
00:16:28,079 --> 00:16:29,479
which is really hard to measure.
344
00:16:29,489 --> 00:16:29,509
Yeah.
345
00:16:29,509 --> 00:16:32,099
So then you can get sort of
obsessed with that and not actually
346
00:16:32,130 --> 00:16:34,469
understand what you're doing.
347
00:16:34,489 --> 00:16:40,780
I think one really significant cultural
thing for our field has been, for
348
00:16:40,780 --> 00:16:46,259
a long time, for a lot of people,
feeling like, um, it was noble to
349
00:16:46,259 --> 00:16:47,980
make it about the grantees, right?
350
00:16:47,980 --> 00:16:48,739
It's not about us.
351
00:16:48,739 --> 00:16:49,409
It's not about us.
352
00:16:49,410 --> 00:16:50,019
It's not about us.
353
00:16:50,929 --> 00:16:52,840
And, and that was with really good intent.
354
00:16:52,929 --> 00:16:56,369
But what it means is… Well, one thing
it means is that we're black boxes, right?
355
00:16:56,369 --> 00:16:59,489
People don't understand us 'cause we
don't talk about ourselves and what we do.
356
00:16:59,879 --> 00:17:04,059
But it also means we don't have the
skills or the habits or the processes
357
00:17:04,059 --> 00:17:07,109
to actually be able to say, "This
is what we do, and this is how you
358
00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:09,129
know we're doing it well or not."
359
00:17:09,609 --> 00:17:11,149
You know, that's so interesting.
360
00:17:11,399 --> 00:17:16,039
So I think this combination of maybe
false humility coupled with, I don't
361
00:17:16,039 --> 00:17:18,819
know what else, this, this lack
of enemies in nature that you talk
362
00:17:18,829 --> 00:17:22,579
about, no regulators, no enemies,
means that we, like we have- Yeah.
363
00:17:22,579 --> 00:17:25,299
Yeah … we're missing those skills,
that we can't run fast, and we don't
364
00:17:25,300 --> 00:17:28,599
have sharp teeth, so we haven't evolved
into something that's effective.
365
00:17:28,609 --> 00:17:28,629
Yeah.
366
00:17:28,859 --> 00:17:31,029
Especially, you know,
especially in communications.
367
00:17:31,550 --> 00:17:33,230
So we're gonna take a
very, very quick break.
368
00:17:33,269 --> 00:17:34,009
Don't go anywhere.
369
00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:38,459
We're gonna be back and dig into this book
because there is so much to talk about.
370
00:17:38,460 --> 00:17:41,479
We'll be right back with Jen
Ford Reedy right after this.
371
00:17:43,570 --> 00:17:46,429
You're listening to Let's Hear
It, a podcast about foundation and
372
00:17:46,429 --> 00:17:49,829
nonprofit communications hosted
by Eric Brown and Kirk Brown.
373
00:17:50,249 --> 00:17:53,019
If you're enjoying this episode,
you may just be a rule breaker.
374
00:17:53,130 --> 00:17:58,520
Check out season three of Break Fake
Rules with Glenn Galich, CEO of the
375
00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:01,339
Stupski Foundation, as he chats with
inspiring leaders in philanthropy,
376
00:18:01,339 --> 00:18:04,670
government, media, and more about
breaking the fake rules that don't work
377
00:18:04,969 --> 00:18:06,789
so that we can build a future that does.
378
00:18:07,179 --> 00:18:08,970
Check them out wherever
you get your podcasts.
379
00:18:09,639 --> 00:18:11,169
And now, back to the show.
380
00:18:16,182 --> 00:18:20,182
And we are back with Jen Ford Reedy, whose
new book, Please Be Good at Philanthropy,
381
00:18:20,182 --> 00:18:26,112
from Disruption Books, is such a
interesting and wonderful little companion
382
00:18:26,112 --> 00:18:30,252
piece to the other big book that's just
come out, Control, by, by Glenn Galen.
383
00:18:30,252 --> 00:18:33,511
He's a funder of ours, just, you know,
for full ex- uh, full disclosure.
384
00:18:33,511 --> 00:18:36,391
But anyway, he, he kinda
drops this depth charge.
385
00:18:36,392 --> 00:18:40,842
He's very, very pointed about what
philanthropy does wrong and why.
386
00:18:41,472 --> 00:18:44,262
Uh, y- y- you've taken a
slightly different approach
387
00:18:44,262 --> 00:18:47,131
around the prescriptions for
how philanthropy can get better.
388
00:18:47,552 --> 00:18:51,862
And one of those things that has, you
know, chapped my hide completely is
389
00:18:51,862 --> 00:18:54,252
this new report from the Center for
Effective Philanthropy that shows
390
00:18:54,252 --> 00:18:58,541
this phenomenal disconnect between
what foundations think they're doing
391
00:18:58,831 --> 00:19:00,971
and what grantees are experiencing.
392
00:19:01,392 --> 00:19:06,602
And for, for me anyway, this, this is,
like, a huge wake-up call for foundations
393
00:19:06,602 --> 00:19:11,441
to do better, to better connect with
grantees, to help them understand what
394
00:19:11,441 --> 00:19:13,361
their needs are, and filling those needs.
395
00:19:13,361 --> 00:19:16,311
And I'm just wondering if you have,
if you've heard, what your own
396
00:19:16,322 --> 00:19:19,381
response is to this, this research,
about what your counterparts in
397
00:19:19,381 --> 00:19:20,752
philanthropy are saying about it.
398
00:19:20,752 --> 00:19:22,542
I, I mean, I think it's traveling.
399
00:19:22,551 --> 00:19:25,121
I think people are reading
it and, and understanding.
400
00:19:25,131 --> 00:19:29,121
And I think, I mean, you're right to bring
it into the conversation as potentially
401
00:19:29,121 --> 00:19:33,441
a case in point of how feedback loops
are not happening, the way you actually
402
00:19:33,441 --> 00:19:37,241
need to have feedbacks loop, loops
happen to be good at anything, right?
403
00:19:37,682 --> 00:19:42,421
Um, I mean, there's always some part when
there's sort of this is what nonprofits
404
00:19:42,671 --> 00:19:46,832
think about philanthropy and this is what
foundations think, that there should be
405
00:19:46,832 --> 00:19:51,471
some degree of disconnect because we're
actually doing two different jobs, and
406
00:19:51,471 --> 00:19:52,531
we're doing it in partnership, right?
407
00:19:52,531 --> 00:19:56,071
So we're each bringing, um, different
perspectives, different purposes.
408
00:19:56,311 --> 00:20:00,451
But I think what the CEP report helpfully
shows is, like, a degree of disconnect
409
00:20:00,481 --> 00:20:05,911
that suggests, like, something is really
off in, in how we're understanding the
410
00:20:05,911 --> 00:20:11,672
problem, how we're getting and processing
information as partner organizations,
411
00:20:11,672 --> 00:20:14,671
as co-conspirators, or what- whatever
the relationship is between, you
412
00:20:14,671 --> 00:20:15,891
know, foundations and their grantees.
413
00:20:15,901 --> 00:20:18,762
Like, we need each other, and
so we need to be understanding
414
00:20:18,762 --> 00:20:19,721
each other's experience.
415
00:20:19,721 --> 00:20:22,741
We need to understand each other's
purpose, and we need to understand how
416
00:20:22,741 --> 00:20:27,201
we work in alignment to get to, you
know, the shared purposes that we have.
417
00:20:27,481 --> 00:20:27,701
All right.
418
00:20:27,701 --> 00:20:30,481
So you write in the book a lot about
trying to listen and hear and get
419
00:20:30,481 --> 00:20:34,382
information, notwithstanding the
disproportionate power relationship
420
00:20:34,392 --> 00:20:35,872
between grantees and their funders.
421
00:20:36,061 --> 00:20:36,321
Yeah.
422
00:20:36,531 --> 00:20:37,821
Uh, w- what are you doing?
423
00:20:38,162 --> 00:20:41,882
How are you advising people to get
that kind of honest feedback to, to
424
00:20:41,882 --> 00:20:43,651
learn the, kind of the real stuff?
425
00:20:43,681 --> 00:20:46,311
Well, I mean, there's not one
answer to that, which is true
426
00:20:46,311 --> 00:20:48,881
of every question you would ask
about foundation practice, right?
427
00:20:48,881 --> 00:20:52,346
That's part of the book is
actually saying, like- We tend
428
00:20:52,346 --> 00:20:53,766
to should each other a lot.
429
00:20:53,776 --> 00:20:55,446
Like, you should do this, you
should do that, you should do that.
430
00:20:55,666 --> 00:20:58,386
And it may or may not apply-
Yeah … given what we're doing.
431
00:20:58,386 --> 00:21:01,865
So I feel like the, the main advice
is for what you are trying to do,
432
00:21:02,105 --> 00:21:07,765
foundation X, what do you need to know
to be smart enough to do that well?
433
00:21:07,945 --> 00:21:10,505
What do you need to know to
understand the risks that you're
434
00:21:10,505 --> 00:21:11,495
creating for other people?
435
00:21:11,495 --> 00:21:16,215
What do you need to know about whether
people want this intervention or not?
436
00:21:16,216 --> 00:21:18,885
What do you need to know about what
it would actually take in terms
437
00:21:18,886 --> 00:21:22,325
of having the supports and the
incentives and the resources to
438
00:21:22,325 --> 00:21:23,595
actually make the change happen?
439
00:21:23,595 --> 00:21:28,276
I mean, I think talking to
community has been within the field
440
00:21:28,276 --> 00:21:31,076
sometimes in a you should category.
441
00:21:31,595 --> 00:21:35,115
And I just feel like it is strongly
in a, like if you use a competence
442
00:21:35,116 --> 00:21:37,936
frame, it's just like, do you
wanna be good at what you do?
443
00:21:38,206 --> 00:21:41,295
Do you wanna actually have the
impact that you say you wanna have?
444
00:21:41,636 --> 00:21:46,149
Well, you can't do it Without
really listening and understanding.
445
00:21:46,159 --> 00:21:46,180
Yeah.
446
00:21:46,510 --> 00:21:49,540
And the specifics of that will be
very different, whether you're doing
447
00:21:49,540 --> 00:21:52,350
something global, whether you're doing
something local, whether you're doing
448
00:21:52,350 --> 00:21:55,409
something about, you know, curing a
disease, whether you're doing something
449
00:21:55,469 --> 00:21:58,000
about, you know, how people are
experiencing the criminal justice system.
450
00:21:58,009 --> 00:21:59,029
Like, it's, it's different.
451
00:21:59,030 --> 00:22:03,139
But I think we have, um, a number
of resources, you know, groups that
452
00:22:03,139 --> 00:22:06,170
have come up that are specifically
about, like, trying to help
453
00:22:06,170 --> 00:22:10,059
foundations get good feedback,
and I reference them in the book.
454
00:22:10,069 --> 00:22:10,089
Yeah.
455
00:22:10,099 --> 00:22:10,579
Throughout the book.
456
00:22:10,579 --> 00:22:15,509
I try to, you know, point people
towards, um, you know, folks who can give
457
00:22:15,669 --> 00:22:20,159
counsel, because it does take effort,
and so you have to believe that it's
458
00:22:20,549 --> 00:22:25,339
central, I think, to being good for
some folks to feel motivated to do it.
459
00:22:25,379 --> 00:22:29,649
Well, you talk a lot about this kind
of formal learning mentality- Yeah
460
00:22:29,650 --> 00:22:31,050
… which I think is really interesting.
461
00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:33,229
So y- and you cite so many resources.
462
00:22:33,229 --> 00:22:37,499
There's lots of information out there and
resources, orgi- organizations who can
463
00:22:37,499 --> 00:22:39,609
support people doing better philanthropy.
464
00:22:39,959 --> 00:22:44,379
And obviously, so- someone is taking them
up on it, or else they wouldn't exist.
465
00:22:44,399 --> 00:22:49,440
But, but my sense from reading the book
was that foundations really can… I
466
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:53,369
mean, they should, for the most part,
find ways to learn as much as possible.
467
00:22:53,370 --> 00:22:53,600
Learn, yeah.
468
00:22:54,269 --> 00:22:54,479
Yeah.
469
00:22:54,499 --> 00:22:57,090
And that sometimes you go to a
foundation, all of a sudden you're,
470
00:22:57,090 --> 00:22:59,539
you know, you become the expert, the
genius- Yeah … because you have the
471
00:22:59,540 --> 00:23:01,570
checkbook, but that's really not the case.
472
00:23:02,279 --> 00:23:07,069
Uh, how, how do you learn, and what
are the things that you encourage your
473
00:23:07,069 --> 00:23:12,540
counterparts at other foundations to do
in order to learn more about their work?
474
00:23:12,610 --> 00:23:15,379
Well, some part of it is, like, the
intentional acknowledgement, right?
475
00:23:15,389 --> 00:23:18,519
And to say what you're saying, like,
we have to learn, keep learning
476
00:23:18,519 --> 00:23:20,349
to, in order to be effective.
477
00:23:20,349 --> 00:23:22,690
I think within Bush, I can say
we do it at all different levels.
478
00:23:22,699 --> 00:23:25,729
So it's like every year, this
is our engagement priority.
479
00:23:25,729 --> 00:23:29,279
Like, we're not doing enough in western
North Dakota, or we're not doing enough
480
00:23:29,290 --> 00:23:31,190
with- Mm … this cultural community.
481
00:23:31,220 --> 00:23:32,039
What do we need to learn?
482
00:23:32,049 --> 00:23:34,060
Like, how are we going out
and having the conversations?
483
00:23:34,060 --> 00:23:35,009
How are we understanding issues?
484
00:23:35,019 --> 00:23:38,100
Also, how are we actually
doing internal learning?
485
00:23:38,110 --> 00:23:41,310
Like, we'll have someone come in and do a
workshop for us on what- Mm-hmm … what
486
00:23:41,310 --> 00:23:44,649
don't we understand about… There
are, you know, big-picture strategic
487
00:23:44,650 --> 00:23:45,930
learning we do at different times.
488
00:23:45,930 --> 00:23:49,289
Like, how do we learn how people
are experiencing a program?
489
00:23:49,299 --> 00:23:51,899
So when we're doing a five-year
strategy or review of a program, how
490
00:23:51,900 --> 00:23:54,969
are we out talking to stakeholders to
understand is this working, is it not?
491
00:23:55,469 --> 00:23:58,389
There's the, you know, how do
we anonymously survey people-
492
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:00,359
Mm … different times to get feedback.
493
00:24:00,810 --> 00:24:03,829
Uh, it, it's at all different
levels, and I think it's sort of
494
00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:07,529
like once you start doing it, you
get a little addicted, I think-
495
00:24:07,529 --> 00:24:09,850
to feeling like, oh, we can get
better if we actually have the
496
00:24:09,850 --> 00:24:11,229
information that helps us get better.
497
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:15,790
And sometimes it's little things like I
mentioned earlier Bush Fellows Program.
498
00:24:16,230 --> 00:24:19,639
We'll have an open mic session at
the board meeting where a Bush Fellow
499
00:24:19,639 --> 00:24:22,250
comes in and they can say anything
they want to the Bush board, right?
500
00:24:22,260 --> 00:24:22,270
Ah.
501
00:24:22,270 --> 00:24:24,620
So we try to pick people different
parts of our region working on
502
00:24:24,620 --> 00:24:27,009
different issues and say, "What do
you think the Bush board should know?"
503
00:24:27,050 --> 00:24:28,749
And they can say anything, you know.
504
00:24:28,750 --> 00:24:32,859
And, and then, you know, we have a
board retreat coming up in August.
505
00:24:32,859 --> 00:24:35,779
We'll be out in Sioux Falls meeting
with people, and the board directly
506
00:24:35,780 --> 00:24:39,819
meeting with people, and board and
staff together learning on panels of
507
00:24:39,859 --> 00:24:41,060
issues that we're trying to explore.
508
00:24:41,060 --> 00:24:43,559
So it's, I mean, it can be all throughout.
509
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:47,870
Well, this is amazing 'cause you're
generating this level of inquiry and
510
00:24:47,870 --> 00:24:50,019
interest and competence internally.
511
00:24:50,199 --> 00:24:53,249
This is coming from within
and not from without.
512
00:24:53,809 --> 00:24:57,819
And as you say, there are very- Yeah
… very few constraints on philanthropy.
513
00:24:57,829 --> 00:25:03,430
There's no particular accountability, and
foundations feel, especially now, like
514
00:25:03,430 --> 00:25:05,259
they're in some kind of defensive crouch.
515
00:25:05,649 --> 00:25:08,959
But you argue in the book that
this is mostly self-imposed.
516
00:25:09,259 --> 00:25:12,068
So- I'm, I'm just so curious.
517
00:25:12,068 --> 00:25:14,728
There are so many ways to think
about what we could do about this.
518
00:25:15,258 --> 00:25:17,518
Uh, what, what would create the pressure?
519
00:25:18,138 --> 00:25:18,498
I don't know.
520
00:25:18,498 --> 00:25:21,378
Are there constraints or
accountability mechanisms that we
521
00:25:21,408 --> 00:25:26,278
ought to be putting on philanthropy
to get them to be more competent?
522
00:25:26,347 --> 00:25:27,168
I don't know.
523
00:25:27,168 --> 00:25:29,817
It's, it's hard to think about
accounting m- accountability
524
00:25:29,818 --> 00:25:31,568
mechanisms for effectiveness.
525
00:25:31,587 --> 00:25:33,057
I mean, that's part of the trick.
526
00:25:33,417 --> 00:25:37,897
I, I think part of what we haven't
done though is to create even the
527
00:25:37,897 --> 00:25:40,897
expectation that you should- Mm-hmm
… be good at philanthropy, right?
528
00:25:40,897 --> 00:25:46,258
So even within the field, when
someone's brand new to a new
529
00:25:46,267 --> 00:25:51,288
foundation position or brand new in
philanthropy, we will celebrate them.
530
00:25:52,478 --> 00:25:53,568
Because now they're giving money.
531
00:25:53,568 --> 00:25:56,688
You know, as opposed to saying like-
Yeah … "Oh, welcome to the field.
532
00:25:56,857 --> 00:26:00,538
You're gonna have to learn stuff."
You know, I f- I think that the fact
533
00:26:00,548 --> 00:26:04,417
that it's mostly an apprenticeship for
people coming into foundations, right?
534
00:26:04,417 --> 00:26:07,677
So they come in and they're told,
"Well, this is how you do it.
535
00:26:07,708 --> 00:26:10,877
We make $10,000 grants."
"We make them quarterly.
536
00:26:11,087 --> 00:26:13,908
This is our process." And then
you're like, "Oh, okay." And then
537
00:26:13,908 --> 00:26:16,028
you learn to do that really well.
538
00:26:16,397 --> 00:26:16,537
Yeah.
539
00:26:16,597 --> 00:26:20,358
And you do exactly what you've been
taught philanthropy is, 'cause you only
540
00:26:20,358 --> 00:26:22,387
know what you do in that organization.
541
00:26:22,777 --> 00:26:25,718
I think part of what I'm hoping with
the book is if you can orient people
542
00:26:25,718 --> 00:26:28,827
from the beginning to just have
consciousness that every single thing
543
00:26:28,827 --> 00:26:30,498
your foundation do- is doing is a choice.
544
00:26:30,887 --> 00:26:31,177
Yeah.
545
00:26:31,698 --> 00:26:32,358
Everything's a choice.
546
00:26:32,368 --> 00:26:35,778
So job number one, go in and understand
those choices and learn to do that.
547
00:26:36,368 --> 00:26:40,607
But then you can think about
are those choices serving you?
548
00:26:41,087 --> 00:26:41,117
Right.
549
00:26:41,507 --> 00:26:45,878
And if you have clarity on what your
actual purpose is, then you have a way
550
00:26:45,878 --> 00:26:51,908
of asking those questions to say, do
these choices make sense relative to
551
00:26:51,948 --> 00:26:54,668
our purpose and what we're trying to do?
552
00:26:54,677 --> 00:26:55,128
Mm-hmm.
553
00:26:55,128 --> 00:26:59,747
I also think, um, you know, those of
you out in California where you are,
554
00:26:59,747 --> 00:27:04,647
you are in the, you know, the hotbed
of, you know, ex- super- … smart
555
00:27:04,838 --> 00:27:09,487
people who have made money doing one
thing, who are coming in and believing
556
00:27:09,487 --> 00:27:11,347
they're gonna disrupt philanthropy.
557
00:27:11,347 --> 00:27:11,387
Yeah.
558
00:27:11,387 --> 00:27:11,707
Right?
559
00:27:12,397 --> 00:27:15,528
And I think there are a lot of us who
are like, "Please, please, please."
560
00:27:15,528 --> 00:27:15,847
You know?
561
00:27:16,007 --> 00:27:18,077
Like, there's stuff you have to learn.
562
00:27:18,127 --> 00:27:22,827
But if we as the institutional
right, field, right, if we as the
563
00:27:22,827 --> 00:27:25,547
professionals aren't even good at
saying to people coming into our
564
00:27:25,548 --> 00:27:28,897
institution, "You have stuff to learn"-
Yeah … like, how are we creating a
565
00:27:28,897 --> 00:27:32,787
broader expectation, almost culturally
throughout the country, that this is
566
00:27:32,787 --> 00:27:34,698
a, this is a skill you have to learn?
567
00:27:34,967 --> 00:27:38,157
So that when there's the big announcement
that somebody's gonna create a
568
00:27:38,158 --> 00:27:42,267
foundation, the reporters are asking
questions that are like, "Well, how
569
00:27:42,268 --> 00:27:43,347
are you gonna learn how to do that?
570
00:27:43,357 --> 00:27:46,717
How are you testing?" As opposed to just,
"What change are you gonna do?" Right.
571
00:27:46,717 --> 00:27:48,767
"And we're gonna celebrate you
for having that intention."
572
00:27:49,208 --> 00:27:57,374
Um, or you know, the ability to expect-
Reports on what happens to those things
573
00:27:57,374 --> 00:28:02,744
that, you know, are announced with fanfare
and, and the ability to ask the follow-up
574
00:28:02,744 --> 00:28:08,444
questions and have more attention to
each other and attention to foundations
575
00:28:08,444 --> 00:28:12,834
just generally that's more about
like, well, what impact did you have?
576
00:28:12,843 --> 00:28:13,973
How, how did it go?
577
00:28:13,974 --> 00:28:14,934
How did people feel about it?
578
00:28:14,934 --> 00:28:20,093
Like, how do you- Yeah … give more
people kind of the, the questions or
579
00:28:20,093 --> 00:28:25,364
the orientation to not just celebrate
intent and not just celebrate intent
580
00:28:25,454 --> 00:28:32,153
or intent and, and good wishes, um,
to say like, "That's great that you
581
00:28:32,153 --> 00:28:35,454
have that, but as we're gonna talk
about the work of your foundation,
582
00:28:35,894 --> 00:28:37,133
it's not gonna be on those terms."
583
00:28:37,234 --> 00:28:39,243
Talking about the work of the
foundation, you write about how
584
00:28:39,243 --> 00:28:43,463
talking about successes are important,
'cause we wanna be able to know it
585
00:28:43,464 --> 00:28:46,973
worked and, you know, we wanna be
able to take stock of how we're doing.
586
00:28:47,808 --> 00:28:50,228
Uh, you know, are we, are
we earning our tax break?
587
00:28:50,228 --> 00:28:50,288
Yeah.
588
00:28:50,288 --> 00:28:51,138
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
589
00:28:51,188 --> 00:28:51,358
Yeah.
590
00:28:51,418 --> 00:28:54,748
But what didn't go right is equally as
important because you have to be able to
591
00:28:54,768 --> 00:28:59,007
help alert people about, you know, like,
"Don't waste money on this strategy,"
592
00:28:59,107 --> 00:29:02,288
or, "If you wanna really pursue a
strategy like this, you can learn from
593
00:29:02,288 --> 00:29:04,147
the things that we did that didn't- Yeah
594
00:29:04,147 --> 00:29:08,177
go according to plan." You write about
some of these great philanthropic
595
00:29:08,217 --> 00:29:10,147
moonshots that- Yes … didn't pan out.
596
00:29:10,197 --> 00:29:10,717
Yes.
597
00:29:11,387 --> 00:29:14,017
And I've always said, you know, a
road closed sign is one of the most
598
00:29:14,018 --> 00:29:15,918
important signs in transportation.
599
00:29:18,307 --> 00:29:19,407
That is very true.
600
00:29:19,437 --> 00:29:20,188
That's good.
601
00:29:20,517 --> 00:29:22,398
So for whatever reason, they don't
see the value in helping their
602
00:29:22,398 --> 00:29:24,087
colleagues know what not to do.
603
00:29:24,138 --> 00:29:27,767
Can you talk about how we can be
better about sharing what doesn't work?
604
00:29:27,907 --> 00:29:30,577
I think there are lots of different
dimensions of that, and one is, in
605
00:29:30,578 --> 00:29:34,347
general, we don't put a lot of time into
understanding and sharing the results
606
00:29:34,348 --> 00:29:36,147
of our evaluations, good or bad, right?
607
00:29:36,168 --> 00:29:39,157
Like, but then the bad part does get
complicated when something doesn't
608
00:29:39,168 --> 00:29:42,767
work, for a lot of reasons, including
not wanting to hang your grantees out.
609
00:29:42,797 --> 00:29:47,097
You know, we, we had a, a teacher
training initiative that we're-
610
00:29:47,157 --> 00:29:49,677
there are case studies that'll
be on the website for this book.
611
00:29:49,727 --> 00:29:53,457
The book doesn't come out till July,
but once it's, it's out, the, the, um,
612
00:29:53,508 --> 00:29:56,067
those resources will be available, and
we wrote a case study on it saying like,
613
00:29:56,067 --> 00:29:57,867
"This did not work. It did not work."
614
00:29:57,908 --> 00:30:02,047
And you know, I was on, did a panel,
people who work in foundations,
615
00:30:02,137 --> 00:30:05,137
about this work- Mm-hmm … with
some of our grantees, our partners,
616
00:30:05,228 --> 00:30:07,378
and they're saying the good things
that they did with the money- Ah.
617
00:30:07,387 --> 00:30:08,087
… which are true.
618
00:30:08,397 --> 00:30:11,727
Like, there were, there are always, you
know, pockets of success within something.
619
00:30:11,728 --> 00:30:13,007
And I'm saying it was a failure.
620
00:30:13,118 --> 00:30:15,177
And oh my gosh.
621
00:30:15,188 --> 00:30:18,737
Mm. The discomfort- … of people in
the room who kept wanting to say, "But
622
00:30:18,737 --> 00:30:20,727
it's not a failure because…" And I
was like, "We're the one who did it.
623
00:30:20,727 --> 00:30:26,098
Like, we're okay saying it was a failure."
"We've told our partners this is how we
624
00:30:26,098 --> 00:30:31,797
feel." But it feels- Yeah … I mean,
we're a high empathy maybe field, but it
625
00:30:31,817 --> 00:30:36,947
feels like you're taking other people down
with us, and I think that's part- Yeah
626
00:30:36,957 --> 00:30:42,118
of, again, this like can we distinguish
us and our role from what our grantees do?
627
00:30:42,397 --> 00:30:46,027
Because the, we were saying
it's a failure based on what we
628
00:30:46,087 --> 00:30:47,887
intended it to be, what we did.
629
00:30:47,897 --> 00:30:53,127
And i- if you can make that distinction
about your own performance as a
630
00:30:53,127 --> 00:30:58,682
foundation, good or bad, then I think
it can be easier to- You know, put
631
00:30:58,682 --> 00:31:02,512
something out that other people can
learn from that doesn't feel like it's,
632
00:31:02,742 --> 00:31:06,682
you know, trashing, um, the work of
good organizations and good people.
633
00:31:06,772 --> 00:31:07,552
Yes, absolutely.
634
00:31:07,552 --> 00:31:08,622
That point is well taken.
635
00:31:08,742 --> 00:31:12,432
We used to have a worst grant contest at
the Hewlett Foundation, and it was the
636
00:31:12,432 --> 00:31:16,781
worst grant for which we were the most at
fault, and from which we learned the most.
637
00:31:17,461 --> 00:31:20,292
But Hewlett is famously good at
putting stuff out there, you know,
638
00:31:20,312 --> 00:31:23,242
like, willing to, and one of the
case studies in the book is also
639
00:31:23,242 --> 00:31:25,231
from a Hewlett program, you know?
640
00:31:25,232 --> 00:31:28,681
So, and when people are willing to put
stuff out there that's the non-success
641
00:31:28,681 --> 00:31:31,662
stories, I mean, it's such a contribution.
642
00:31:31,672 --> 00:31:34,481
But- I mean, we, we were trying to build
a culture of learning f- Yeah, yeah, yeah,
643
00:31:34,481 --> 00:31:36,051
yeah … from, from our own failures.
644
00:31:36,442 --> 00:31:40,432
Uh, so, you know, if your program
won the worst grant contest, you
645
00:31:40,432 --> 00:31:41,942
got dinner with the president.
646
00:31:42,332 --> 00:31:44,261
Um, but again- Yeah … this
was not about the grantees,
647
00:31:44,262 --> 00:31:45,871
this was about our own mistakes.
648
00:31:46,041 --> 00:31:49,421
All right, I, I wanna
move to another topic.
649
00:31:49,521 --> 00:31:49,771
Okay.
650
00:31:49,841 --> 00:31:53,811
Uh, there's this burning question in
my mind, and I'd love your take on it.
651
00:31:54,261 --> 00:31:58,821
W- what do you say to one of those
bazillionaires who is now sitting
652
00:31:58,821 --> 00:32:03,221
on tens or even hundreds of billions
of dollars, this is money they
653
00:32:03,222 --> 00:32:07,461
could not possibly spend in 100
lifetimes, maybe 1,000 lifetimes,
654
00:32:08,311 --> 00:32:10,051
about how to use that money for good?
655
00:32:10,071 --> 00:32:13,322
I mean, there's a ton of money, and
it feels to me like philanthropy
656
00:32:13,351 --> 00:32:18,012
may not necessarily always be the
vehicle to move that kind of money,
657
00:32:18,451 --> 00:32:23,271
or that traditional philanthropy as
we know it may not be the best way
658
00:32:23,271 --> 00:32:25,711
because there's just so much money.
659
00:32:25,811 --> 00:32:26,091
Yeah.
660
00:32:26,171 --> 00:32:28,871
What do you say to one of those
folks who just became a billionaire
661
00:32:28,872 --> 00:32:30,481
this week through one of those IPOs?
662
00:32:30,501 --> 00:32:32,401
How do they use that money properly?
663
00:32:32,861 --> 00:32:35,321
Well, first is really encouraging them
to use it to the benefit of others.
664
00:32:35,332 --> 00:32:35,352
Yeah.
665
00:32:35,372 --> 00:32:38,041
I think there's sometimes where we
critique philanthropy in a way that
666
00:32:38,041 --> 00:32:43,541
I worry is gonna make- … people
less willing- Yeah … to give.
667
00:32:43,671 --> 00:32:43,901
Right.
668
00:32:44,131 --> 00:32:46,941
And I do think, of all the things,
if, if we live in a society where
669
00:32:46,942 --> 00:32:48,471
people happen to get that rich, right?
670
00:32:48,481 --> 00:32:48,501
Yeah.
671
00:32:48,512 --> 00:32:54,371
Which we can have our critique about
that, but I, I do appreciate when
672
00:32:54,371 --> 00:32:55,641
folks are trying to use it for good.
673
00:32:55,692 --> 00:32:58,691
So I think there's an affirming
and encouraging of, of that.
674
00:32:58,972 --> 00:33:02,051
I think next thing is saying,
like, congratulations.
675
00:33:03,082 --> 00:33:03,262
Right.
676
00:33:03,271 --> 00:33:08,072
That you were so good or so lucky in
some ways to, to get this wealth, and
677
00:33:08,072 --> 00:33:11,532
I'll say, "If you want to actually
do good in the world, this is a
678
00:33:11,541 --> 00:33:17,132
different skill than all the skills
you used to build up that wealth.
679
00:33:17,241 --> 00:33:20,232
Some of them are gonna apply, but a
whole lot of them aren't, and if you
680
00:33:20,241 --> 00:33:25,486
don't actually shift your mindset-
You're not gonna have the success you
681
00:33:25,486 --> 00:33:26,936
hope, and then you may get discouraged.
682
00:33:27,176 --> 00:33:31,396
So let's work upfront to help you
understand some of the ways you're gonna
683
00:33:31,406 --> 00:33:34,966
have to bre- bend your brain coming in,
which is chapter one of the book, right?
684
00:33:34,966 --> 00:33:35,466
How do you think philanthropically?
685
00:33:36,136 --> 00:33:39,636
Just to say, like, if you're coming
in with a different kind of strategic
686
00:33:39,636 --> 00:33:42,175
orientation, you're gonna have
instincts that undermine yourself.
687
00:33:42,676 --> 00:33:48,275
And I think there's an appealing to, we-
let's help you be a great philanthropist.
688
00:33:48,285 --> 00:33:48,305
Yeah.
689
00:33:48,515 --> 00:33:50,095
I think you're trying to ask
a different question too,
690
00:33:50,095 --> 00:33:51,266
which is just about magnitude.
691
00:33:51,275 --> 00:33:51,295
Yeah.
692
00:33:51,476 --> 00:33:54,136
I actually think magnitude is absorbable.
693
00:33:54,996 --> 00:33:56,645
Um, I, I really do.
694
00:33:56,685 --> 00:34:02,575
I think that there is so much great
use for philanthropic capital that
695
00:34:03,275 --> 00:34:07,806
maybe isn't, doesn't look like the sexy
initiatives- Mm … that we sometimes
696
00:34:07,825 --> 00:34:12,205
like to do within philanthropy, but
is actually just like, no, we have
697
00:34:12,205 --> 00:34:13,745
a giant affordable housing problem.
698
00:34:14,145 --> 00:34:19,635
Like, so much money Yeah … could go into
thinking differently about construction
699
00:34:19,685 --> 00:34:21,715
and just plain building houses for people.
700
00:34:21,726 --> 00:34:21,756
Yeah.
701
00:34:21,906 --> 00:34:23,695
I mean, like, we can absorb money.
702
00:34:23,705 --> 00:34:23,735
Right.
703
00:34:24,035 --> 00:34:29,205
It's just not through every kind
of, you know, way of thinking
704
00:34:29,216 --> 00:34:30,776
about s- about philanthropy.
705
00:34:31,025 --> 00:34:34,575
And I also think we've tended to, you
know, through the, in the last 20 years
706
00:34:34,576 --> 00:34:38,785
with so much emphasis on impact and
strategy, we've made people feel like they
707
00:34:38,786 --> 00:34:40,796
have to do philanthropy that's complex.
708
00:34:40,826 --> 00:34:44,065
And I was like, real simple, we can
put that money to work- Mm-hmm … in
709
00:34:44,066 --> 00:34:49,196
really, really good ways if you
don't get too heady about it.
710
00:34:49,225 --> 00:34:52,135
Well, I would also tell
them to read your book.
711
00:34:52,405 --> 00:34:53,565
Oh, that's nice.
712
00:34:53,655 --> 00:34:57,445
Please Be Good at Philanthropy
from Disruption Books.
713
00:34:58,125 --> 00:35:01,615
Jen, I, I really, really
enjoyed this conversation.
714
00:35:01,646 --> 00:35:02,905
I really enjoyed the book.
715
00:35:02,935 --> 00:35:07,076
I think it is exactly the tonic
for the cold that we have.
716
00:35:07,195 --> 00:35:08,546
Oh, I'm so glad to hear it.
717
00:35:08,676 --> 00:35:09,515
I'm so glad.
718
00:35:09,615 --> 00:35:10,675
And best of luck with it.
719
00:35:10,705 --> 00:35:11,645
It's out in July.
720
00:35:11,655 --> 00:35:13,375
Thank you so much for talking with us.
721
00:35:13,505 --> 00:35:14,505
Thank you for having me.
722
00:35:14,505 --> 00:35:15,395
It was a real delight.
723
00:35:17,485 --> 00:35:18,305
And we're back.
724
00:35:18,305 --> 00:35:21,925
So I, I think we need to really
establish and underscore that when we
725
00:35:21,926 --> 00:35:23,606
say Bush, we're not talking president.
726
00:35:23,635 --> 00:35:23,895
Right.
727
00:35:24,365 --> 00:35:24,927
We're not talking beer.
728
00:35:24,927 --> 00:35:24,991
Right.
729
00:35:24,991 --> 00:35:25,055
Right?
730
00:35:25,055 --> 00:35:26,445
I love- And we're not talking beans.
731
00:35:29,754 --> 00:35:33,924
I just… And that's, you're right
in the heart of this Midwestern
732
00:35:34,004 --> 00:35:36,724
knowing sensibility, the humility.
733
00:35:36,804 --> 00:35:40,503
Uh, so let's just say thank you, Jen,
for bringing us, for bringing us there.
734
00:35:40,894 --> 00:35:43,964
We're talking about the Bushes
that come from having created 3M,
735
00:35:43,984 --> 00:35:48,633
which, which I think did- don't we
owe the, the Post-It Note to 3M?
736
00:35:48,983 --> 00:35:50,983
Isn't that, isn't that one of
the many things that we owe
737
00:35:50,983 --> 00:35:52,253
to 3M, is the Post-It Note?
738
00:35:52,614 --> 00:35:53,653
Ah, okay.
739
00:35:54,593 --> 00:35:54,623
Sure.
740
00:35:56,893 --> 00:35:59,394
I don't think people use Post-Its
the way they used to, but still.
741
00:35:59,704 --> 00:36:00,454
I know.
742
00:36:00,483 --> 00:36:01,103
It's funny.
743
00:36:01,184 --> 00:36:07,434
So Jen brings us to the heart of
this discussion, which is, hey,
744
00:36:07,434 --> 00:36:11,294
let's remember philanthropies are
created because of, guess what?
745
00:36:11,343 --> 00:36:12,113
Tax treatment.
746
00:36:12,553 --> 00:36:12,613
Right.
747
00:36:12,614 --> 00:36:17,283
These are actually public resources, so
how about let's have some conversation
748
00:36:17,283 --> 00:36:22,254
about how they demonstrate and document
their value, their public good value.
749
00:36:22,294 --> 00:36:26,013
And th- you had mentioned the
Midwestern part of this to get started.
750
00:36:26,294 --> 00:36:30,523
This is such a nuanced piece to
kinda weave through and thread.
751
00:36:30,913 --> 00:36:33,773
I almost feel like it has to come
from a Midwestern perspective and
752
00:36:33,774 --> 00:36:37,483
sensibility because there's so much to
unpack here, and yet there's a common
753
00:36:37,483 --> 00:36:41,273
sense and very enormously important
part of this was just like, yeah, these
754
00:36:41,274 --> 00:36:45,983
are, these foundations are stacks of
money that are created through, you
755
00:36:45,983 --> 00:36:49,223
know, public fiat, and guess what?
756
00:36:49,343 --> 00:36:51,434
That means they have to
demonstrate public value.
757
00:36:51,483 --> 00:36:52,453
How do you do that?
758
00:36:52,583 --> 00:36:55,294
And it's a very salient question
I feel like Jen is bringing
759
00:36:55,294 --> 00:36:56,414
for, bringing to all of us.
760
00:36:56,793 --> 00:37:00,333
Right, 'cause, you know, if you have
some New York schmuck yelling about
761
00:37:00,354 --> 00:37:02,993
philanthropy- … who's gonna listen?
762
00:37:04,654 --> 00:37:08,934
And, and isn't this conversation just a
r- it's, it's like a call and response
763
00:37:08,944 --> 00:37:10,434
with the conversation with Glenn.
764
00:37:10,604 --> 00:37:10,634
Yes.
765
00:37:10,654 --> 00:37:14,284
And of course, the conversation with
Alicia- Mm … about this disconnect
766
00:37:14,284 --> 00:37:16,034
between foundations and their grantees.
767
00:37:16,333 --> 00:37:16,613
Yeah.
768
00:37:16,674 --> 00:37:21,343
And we see, I would say, the
antidote to that disconnect is
769
00:37:21,363 --> 00:37:24,794
what Jen is doing at the Bush
Foundation, and frankly, her book.
770
00:37:25,304 --> 00:37:29,523
Mm. If you, if you're at a foundation
and you're seeing that your grantees feel
771
00:37:29,523 --> 00:37:34,293
like you're out of touch, that you don't
understand what they're going through,
772
00:37:34,494 --> 00:37:38,053
all that kind of stuff, pick up a copy
of Please Be Good at Philanthropy- Yeah
773
00:37:38,053 --> 00:37:40,043
and read it cover to cover,
and when you're done reading it
774
00:37:40,043 --> 00:37:41,443
cover to cover, read it again.
775
00:37:41,873 --> 00:37:42,143
Yeah.
776
00:37:42,163 --> 00:37:47,204
Because in here are the ways that you
can learn about how to connect with your
777
00:37:47,204 --> 00:37:51,093
grantees, how to be more responsible,
how to understand when things are working
778
00:37:51,093 --> 00:37:54,624
and when they're not, how to share
information about when they're not.
779
00:37:54,814 --> 00:37:57,353
Because I've said this a million
times on this show, you know, a
780
00:37:57,353 --> 00:38:01,854
road closed sign is one of the most
important signs in transportation.
781
00:38:03,474 --> 00:38:07,473
And, "Don't make the same mistakes
we did" could be one of the most
782
00:38:07,474 --> 00:38:09,964
important messages in philanthropy.
783
00:38:09,964 --> 00:38:10,103
Mm-hmm.
784
00:38:10,103 --> 00:38:14,383
And that is not a message that foundations
tend to send, and she's absolutely
785
00:38:14,383 --> 00:38:16,304
encouraging that, among other things.
786
00:38:16,484 --> 00:38:21,063
So yes, it probably takes a
Midwesterner to be nice about it.
787
00:38:21,584 --> 00:38:28,364
But given this time right now, if
philanthropy is going to continue
788
00:38:28,364 --> 00:38:32,803
to be relevant, and if it's going
to cond- continue to, I don't know,
789
00:38:33,203 --> 00:38:37,913
actually accomplish things, the
prescriptions in this book are essential.
790
00:38:38,444 --> 00:38:38,874
Yeah.
791
00:38:39,253 --> 00:38:42,563
Well, and you know, she, she… We
always talk about origin story, and
792
00:38:42,563 --> 00:38:48,344
I love that Jen brings kind of this
c- consultant's instinct for what are
793
00:38:48,344 --> 00:38:52,314
we trying to do with performance and
can bring into that foundation leader
794
00:38:52,314 --> 00:38:57,134
sensibility about humility and recognizing
what's so difficult to measure.
795
00:38:57,333 --> 00:38:59,973
But can we talk for just a
second, though, about how the
796
00:38:59,984 --> 00:39:00,924
Bush Foundation is organized?
797
00:39:00,964 --> 00:39:02,723
'Cause I think this is so
interesting, too, and I feel like
798
00:39:02,723 --> 00:39:07,823
this perspective certainly helps
inform Jen's thinking here, is that
799
00:39:08,574 --> 00:39:12,703
the Bush Foundation is actually
not organized around single issues.
800
00:39:13,183 --> 00:39:17,823
It's organized around this notion of
expanding problem-solving capacity.
801
00:39:17,833 --> 00:39:22,103
And, and this whole conversation around
evaluation and what, what impact, what
802
00:39:22,103 --> 00:39:25,583
benefit are we creating, I feel like it
shows up in stark relief against that
803
00:39:25,583 --> 00:39:28,223
framework, too, because the f- this
foundation is saying, you know… And
804
00:39:28,223 --> 00:39:30,723
actually I'm curious to get your take on
this, because this foundation is saying,
805
00:39:30,723 --> 00:39:33,833
"We're not coming to the field telling
you which problems you should care about."
806
00:39:33,863 --> 00:39:34,163
Right.
807
00:39:34,554 --> 00:39:38,163
"And we're not gonna resource you to
solve the problems that our strategic
808
00:39:38,173 --> 00:39:42,284
philanthropy has told you are necessary
to solve." And actually, that's really
809
00:39:42,284 --> 00:39:47,353
interesting because I think some of our
core changes and movements of our time
810
00:39:47,353 --> 00:39:51,133
have kind of been revealed by foundations
actually working at that level.
811
00:39:51,413 --> 00:39:55,383
But this is a perspective that says, "No,
actually, we need to engage in people,
812
00:39:55,393 --> 00:39:57,134
organizations, communities, regions.
813
00:39:57,564 --> 00:40:01,854
Let's hear from them what problems
they're trying to solve, and then let's
814
00:40:01,854 --> 00:40:05,673
actually provide resources that help
folks solve problems that make their
815
00:40:05,673 --> 00:40:10,223
communities better, thrive, et cetera."
That, that to me just feels like it's a
816
00:40:10,223 --> 00:40:13,253
really interesting sensibility in terms
of this whole conversation about trying
817
00:40:13,253 --> 00:40:16,533
to understand what impact we're having
and, and how do we characterize that.
818
00:40:16,763 --> 00:40:17,583
Yeah, I totally agree.
819
00:40:17,774 --> 00:40:23,003
Uh, another way of thinking about
it is a needs meeting orientation.
820
00:40:23,003 --> 00:40:23,403
Hmm.
821
00:40:23,403 --> 00:40:23,673
Hmm.
822
00:40:23,673 --> 00:40:26,173
Uh, you go out, you go out to the
community and you find out what
823
00:40:26,173 --> 00:40:30,163
people need, and then you do your
best to help them achieve that.
824
00:40:30,683 --> 00:40:36,144
And you're right, most foundations
are set up in terms of issue areas.
825
00:40:36,193 --> 00:40:39,783
We do environment, we do democracy,
we do this, that or the other.
826
00:40:39,933 --> 00:40:45,904
Which, if you ask me, is often
just as useful for the foundation
827
00:40:45,904 --> 00:40:47,223
in being able to say no.
828
00:40:47,234 --> 00:40:47,254
Yeah.
829
00:40:47,683 --> 00:40:49,933
Because someone will come
to them with a great idea.
830
00:40:49,943 --> 00:40:49,973
Mm-hmm.
831
00:40:50,253 --> 00:40:53,043
And they'll say, "Nah, we don't really
fund that. That's- Yeah … that's out
832
00:40:53,043 --> 00:40:55,113
of our guidelines," that kind of thing.
833
00:40:55,314 --> 00:41:00,236
So it is a, it's a no tool,
not necessarily a yes tool.
834
00:41:00,406 --> 00:41:04,746
And so if you go out into the community
and say, "What do you need? What are you
835
00:41:04,746 --> 00:41:08,215
dealing with? What are the challenges
that you have, and how can we in one
836
00:41:08,216 --> 00:41:11,435
way or the other support you in being
able to overcome those challenges?"
837
00:41:11,606 --> 00:41:13,176
That is a totally different mindset.
838
00:41:13,476 --> 00:41:16,245
And I agree, not many
foundations do it that way.
839
00:41:16,246 --> 00:41:19,876
The Irvine Foundation, it would set
up these initiatives that w- were
840
00:41:19,876 --> 00:41:24,576
designed to address some kind of
challenge that were different from the
841
00:41:24,576 --> 00:41:27,666
old program s- way of doing things.
842
00:41:27,666 --> 00:41:29,255
And so that's a variation on that.
843
00:41:29,806 --> 00:41:32,196
I think it's really interesting,
and I think that it's something,
844
00:41:32,355 --> 00:41:36,316
even a foundation that does have
programs, they could carve off some
845
00:41:36,346 --> 00:41:40,156
part of their grant-making and say,
"Let's just meet people's needs.
846
00:41:40,225 --> 00:41:43,936
Let's figure out what some important
need is, and then just serve them-
847
00:41:44,355 --> 00:41:48,186
Yeah … ins- instead of deciding from
on high that this is a problem and
848
00:41:48,195 --> 00:41:49,745
we're gonna be the ones who solve it.
849
00:41:50,035 --> 00:41:51,865
And there's one more thing
about problem-solving.
850
00:41:52,135 --> 00:41:55,625
I've said in the past that I, it,
in a sense it sets the foundation
851
00:41:55,635 --> 00:42:00,385
up as the hero, and I don't think
that's how Jen is referring to
852
00:42:00,385 --> 00:42:02,365
problem-solving in this context.
853
00:42:02,375 --> 00:42:06,375
Mm. Like I say, I think it's really
more like im- like meeting folks'
854
00:42:06,375 --> 00:42:10,735
needs, and needs that are articulated
by people in the community who are
855
00:42:10,735 --> 00:42:14,845
dealing with whatever challenges they're
dealing with or seeing opportunities
856
00:42:15,116 --> 00:42:18,845
that might present themselves, and
how the foundation can support them
857
00:42:18,845 --> 00:42:21,325
in achieving some kind of aspiration.
858
00:42:21,576 --> 00:42:22,126
Yeah.
859
00:42:22,466 --> 00:42:23,965
And, and this is what we
love about this work, right?
860
00:42:23,966 --> 00:42:28,595
Because Jen is having this conversation
from sitting within philanthropy and
861
00:42:28,595 --> 00:42:32,345
doing this high-impact work and thinking
about it in new and different ways.
862
00:42:32,885 --> 00:42:37,425
So one of the really kind of poignant
questions that comes up for me around
863
00:42:37,425 --> 00:42:43,724
this is- Well, i-i-if you have this
foundation and you can operate at such a
864
00:42:43,724 --> 00:42:49,183
high degree of private discretion, what
competency do you need to demonstrate?
865
00:42:49,183 --> 00:42:49,513
Yeah.
866
00:42:49,893 --> 00:42:52,773
You know, honestly, this is the
professionalism plus the nice, because
867
00:42:52,773 --> 00:42:56,423
that is such a- Yep … powerful
question, and there's no way that I
868
00:42:56,423 --> 00:42:58,713
know how to ask that question without
coming across as, like, just a,
869
00:42:58,714 --> 00:42:59,883
"Wait, what? Who are you?" You know?
870
00:42:59,903 --> 00:43:02,334
Who… But, but I think if
you're an expert, you're sitting
871
00:43:02,334 --> 00:43:03,144
in the field, you've got…
872
00:43:03,144 --> 00:43:05,413
You understand the nuances of
the way the agenda is, you can
873
00:43:05,423 --> 00:43:07,753
actually put this question forward.
874
00:43:07,753 --> 00:43:09,674
It's like, how competent do we need to be?
875
00:43:09,674 --> 00:43:13,944
And then what do we need to
look at to help us understand
876
00:43:14,344 --> 00:43:15,793
what that competency looks like?
877
00:43:15,793 --> 00:43:18,393
And then I would even go one step further,
which is, like, we do have a field that
878
00:43:18,394 --> 00:43:21,634
has a lot of, like, grantee re- perception
reports, and we get grantee feedback.
879
00:43:21,634 --> 00:43:26,373
But, but whether or not that feedback is
landing and what changes it's creating, we
880
00:43:26,374 --> 00:43:28,293
often don't know that part so much, right?
881
00:43:28,293 --> 00:43:30,994
We-- Maybe we get the
blog post on the website.
882
00:43:31,083 --> 00:43:34,103
But, but really, you know, what's actually
affecting the DNA for how this works.
883
00:43:34,103 --> 00:43:36,804
So, so to me, that's kind of
the hard-edged question that's
884
00:43:36,804 --> 00:43:39,274
sitting under here is, like,
well, what, what do we owe people?
885
00:43:39,284 --> 00:43:42,703
What's the, what's the transaction we
should be, you know, saying, "Hey, this
886
00:43:42,703 --> 00:43:45,783
is what we're signing up for," when we're
talking about philanthropy at scale?
887
00:43:46,474 --> 00:43:46,713
All right.
888
00:43:46,714 --> 00:43:48,393
Well, there's a lot in there to unpack.
889
00:43:48,394 --> 00:43:50,993
One of the things is, and I think it's
in the book, almost positive it's in
890
00:43:50,993 --> 00:43:55,553
the book, which is that there is no kind
of graduate level course, a degree in
891
00:43:55,553 --> 00:44:01,873
philanthropy that kind of gives you a leg
up in helping you understand how to do it.
892
00:44:01,883 --> 00:44:01,903
Yeah.
893
00:44:02,114 --> 00:44:04,223
So you go get an MBA and
you work in business.
894
00:44:04,434 --> 00:44:07,723
You go get a PhD and you work in academia.
895
00:44:07,964 --> 00:44:11,763
And, and so on the one hand, it's like,
oh my God, really, do we need another-
896
00:44:12,622 --> 00:44:15,732
industrial, whatever, educational
industrial complex around philanthropy?
897
00:44:15,922 --> 00:44:19,551
The answer is maybe, because there
are all sorts of things that you could
898
00:44:19,551 --> 00:44:23,321
learn that could make you better at
philanthropy that you learn before
899
00:44:23,571 --> 00:44:25,222
you go into the foundation world- Mm
900
00:44:25,392 --> 00:44:29,091
instead of while you're
experimenting with people's lives.
901
00:44:29,192 --> 00:44:31,402
Okay, so that's the education business.
902
00:44:31,411 --> 00:44:31,431
Yeah.
903
00:44:31,581 --> 00:44:34,382
And the other thing that she talks
about is that there's an amazing number
904
00:44:34,382 --> 00:44:38,321
of presidents of foundations that have
never worked in a foundation before.
905
00:44:38,331 --> 00:44:42,341
Mm. So we don't hire from within
and work your way up as nearly
906
00:44:42,341 --> 00:44:43,892
as much as people do- Yeah
907
00:44:43,892 --> 00:44:45,131
in, in other places.
908
00:44:45,131 --> 00:44:48,782
And some rather big foundations right
now have presidents who have never worked
909
00:44:48,782 --> 00:44:52,191
at a foundation, and they come in and
they go, "Ooh, hoo, hoo, this is gonna
910
00:44:52,192 --> 00:44:55,861
be easy because I'm really smart." And
it doesn't turn out to be that way.
911
00:44:55,991 --> 00:44:58,441
It turns out to be so much more
complicated than you think.
912
00:44:58,482 --> 00:45:03,891
Mm. And it i- it is true, to be
responsible, to be responsive, to be able
913
00:45:03,892 --> 00:45:08,412
to listen to the things that people aren't
gonna tell you, I mean, it's, it's hard.
914
00:45:08,421 --> 00:45:08,441
Yeah.
915
00:45:08,602 --> 00:45:11,671
And you have to have so much humility
when you go into a foundation 'cause
916
00:45:11,671 --> 00:45:13,481
people just tell you you're fabulous.
917
00:45:13,651 --> 00:45:13,771
Yeah.
918
00:45:13,821 --> 00:45:16,641
And it's lovely to hear
it, but it's not true.
919
00:45:16,741 --> 00:45:17,971
You're not fabulous.
920
00:45:18,171 --> 00:45:18,872
You're normal.
921
00:45:18,872 --> 00:45:19,891
You're like you always were.
922
00:45:19,891 --> 00:45:19,932
Yeah, yeah.
923
00:45:20,321 --> 00:45:22,721
And so nobody really trains
you for that sort of stuff.
924
00:45:23,061 --> 00:45:26,651
We, we have kind of degraded in
philanthropy over these years, and now
925
00:45:26,651 --> 00:45:30,152
all of a sudden grantees are saying,
"Our founders don't understand us.
926
00:45:30,171 --> 00:45:35,831
Whoa." "That's surprising." Well,
this is where Jen brings this
927
00:45:35,831 --> 00:45:37,981
incredible range of experience.
928
00:45:37,982 --> 00:45:42,731
And by the way, in terms of that
class, Jen is actually teaching a
929
00:45:42,732 --> 00:45:45,171
philanthropy 101- I know … class
for the Massachusetts Foundation-
930
00:45:45,291 --> 00:45:47,361
Yeah … which is exactly what
we need right- There we go.
931
00:45:47,372 --> 00:45:48,101
We need… That's right.
932
00:45:48,101 --> 00:45:50,482
We need Jen Ford Reedy at the
front of the room teaching.
933
00:45:50,491 --> 00:45:55,241
And so this is the other piece that is
so great here, is that Jen's not coming
934
00:45:55,241 --> 00:45:58,561
forward saying, "Hey, we need some big
licensing board," or, "Let's create some
935
00:45:58,561 --> 00:46:00,601
new bureaucratic giant compliance regime."
936
00:46:00,961 --> 00:46:04,801
She's actually saying, in the absence
of these external constraints, how
937
00:46:04,801 --> 00:46:06,182
about the internal discipline part?
938
00:46:06,361 --> 00:46:08,562
Let's talk about a willingness
to receive feedback.
939
00:46:08,562 --> 00:46:10,022
Let's talk about the humility.
940
00:46:10,071 --> 00:46:10,161
Yeah.
941
00:46:10,192 --> 00:46:10,341
Right?
942
00:46:10,341 --> 00:46:11,541
Let's talk about a willing to learn.
943
00:46:11,551 --> 00:46:13,981
Let's talk about actually
listening to communities.
944
00:46:14,011 --> 00:46:16,232
And, and again, I keep going
back to community is such a
945
00:46:16,241 --> 00:46:18,441
really interesting word because
what does that word even mean?
946
00:46:18,531 --> 00:46:21,092
Like, you know, where do we find the
communities that we're listening to?
947
00:46:21,092 --> 00:46:22,551
What do we mean for evaluation?
948
00:46:22,551 --> 00:46:24,581
And then, and then how
do we admit failure?
949
00:46:24,581 --> 00:46:29,031
And, and I think, you know, for me,
the reason why I think messengers and
950
00:46:29,032 --> 00:46:32,021
workers and practitioners and experts
like Jen are so important is that I
951
00:46:32,021 --> 00:46:36,681
also feel like there's just a crucial
kind of care and feeding of the field
952
00:46:36,681 --> 00:46:38,061
that's going on here because- Mm-hmm
953
00:46:38,111 --> 00:46:41,302
because we don't have these
kind of external mechanisms
954
00:46:41,302 --> 00:46:42,381
that are kinda pushing on us.
955
00:46:42,842 --> 00:46:47,251
This changes as a result of foundations
looking deep inside and saying, "This is
956
00:46:47,251 --> 00:46:51,721
how we're gonna put this into practice
within our particular institution." And
957
00:46:51,741 --> 00:46:55,491
at least in my experience, that really
requires somebody who can patiently,
958
00:46:55,842 --> 00:47:01,181
kindly, with humility, but also with
expert clarity, walk people through the
959
00:47:01,181 --> 00:47:03,601
process, and I feel like that's what
we're getting here in terms of what
960
00:47:03,601 --> 00:47:04,991
Jen's bringing forward with her book.
961
00:47:05,504 --> 00:47:06,324
Ab- absolutely.
962
00:47:06,544 --> 00:47:10,024
And these are the kinds of tools that
we need more of, no question about it.
963
00:47:10,804 --> 00:47:14,604
There, there are some good books on
philanthropy, but not nearly enough.
964
00:47:14,984 --> 00:47:21,014
And like I said, this is a kind of a soup
to nuts great primer on- Yeah … how to
965
00:47:21,024 --> 00:47:25,164
think about philanthropy, and I'm so glad,
I'm so glad that s- that she wrote it.
966
00:47:25,164 --> 00:47:29,793
And like I said, it is a counterpoint
to Glenn Galich's book Control.
967
00:47:29,804 --> 00:47:29,824
Yeah.
968
00:47:29,824 --> 00:47:34,403
In, in many ways they're saying much
of the same thing, but attacking
969
00:47:34,403 --> 00:47:38,524
it or at, going at it from a
slightly different perspective,
970
00:47:38,544 --> 00:47:39,943
and I think that's really valuable.
971
00:47:40,263 --> 00:47:40,633
Yeah.
972
00:47:40,814 --> 00:47:41,114
Yeah.
973
00:47:41,603 --> 00:47:45,633
Well, let's, let's say a major thank
you to Jen for coming on Let's Hear
974
00:47:45,634 --> 00:47:47,564
It, giving us this book, you know.
975
00:47:47,864 --> 00:47:52,273
I, I, this, this sensibility, just
'cause we have a checkbook, it doesn't…
976
00:47:52,314 --> 00:47:55,093
We, we might, that make us feel wise
if we've got the checkbook, but it
977
00:47:55,093 --> 00:47:57,333
actually doesn't make us wise, right?
978
00:47:57,333 --> 00:47:57,364
Right.
979
00:47:57,364 --> 00:47:59,123
She's saying if we want the
privilege of doing this work, we
980
00:47:59,123 --> 00:48:02,484
should be doing enough to be good
at, at it to deserve the privilege.
981
00:48:02,484 --> 00:48:08,554
And again, that's, man, that, that, that's
so powerful, meaningful, poignant, timely.
982
00:48:09,103 --> 00:48:14,364
And honestly, Eric, like in this era,
to hear such seminal leaders coming
983
00:48:14,364 --> 00:48:17,563
forward with this kind of balance
of discipline and humility, isn't
984
00:48:17,564 --> 00:48:18,903
it just kinda good for the soul?
985
00:48:19,104 --> 00:48:19,293
You know what I mean?
986
00:48:19,384 --> 00:48:21,583
Isn't it just kinda good to know that
we have leadership like this out there?
987
00:48:21,583 --> 00:48:21,853
I don't know.
988
00:48:21,863 --> 00:48:23,074
It was… I, I don't know.
989
00:48:23,204 --> 00:48:24,213
I, I, it's… I love it.
990
00:48:24,354 --> 00:48:24,683
I love it.
991
00:48:24,683 --> 00:48:26,783
It's good for my teeny
tiny soul, that's for sure.
992
00:48:29,034 --> 00:48:29,623
That's great.
993
00:48:30,053 --> 00:48:32,384
Well, please go find the book.
994
00:48:32,443 --> 00:48:37,104
So this is Jen Ford Reedy from the Bush
Foundation, and the book is… And,
995
00:48:37,104 --> 00:48:40,003
and, and give me the title of the book
again, 'cause I, I just, I love this.
996
00:48:40,043 --> 00:48:43,863
Please Be Good at Philanthropy is
just one of my favorite all-time
997
00:48:43,913 --> 00:48:45,164
titles for a book- Yes … ever.
998
00:48:45,164 --> 00:48:49,504
And, and my other favorite thing is that
it is published by Disruption Books.
999
00:48:49,623 --> 00:48:50,803
Oh, there you go.
1000
00:48:51,123 --> 00:48:52,014
That's, that's great.
1001
00:48:52,014 --> 00:48:55,207
So please go check out Please
Be Good at Philanthropy.
1002
00:48:55,207 --> 00:48:57,623
And I guess, you know, Eric, we
should be, we'll take this on too.
1003
00:48:57,623 --> 00:48:59,684
We're gonna try to be
good at podcasting, right?
1004
00:48:59,723 --> 00:49:01,393
We're, we're, we're gonna
please be good at podcasting.
1005
00:49:01,393 --> 00:49:02,383
You're doing great with it.
1006
00:49:02,383 --> 00:49:02,841
I, I mean not so much.
1007
00:49:02,841 --> 00:49:03,773
Eric, it's a little late for that.
1008
00:49:03,853 --> 00:49:04,233
I know.
1009
00:49:04,873 --> 00:49:07,523
It's so much, it's so- If we
were gonna be good at podcasting,
1010
00:49:07,533 --> 00:49:08,573
we'd have been good by now.
1011
00:49:08,823 --> 00:49:09,533
Yeah, I know.
1012
00:49:09,533 --> 00:49:10,054
It's true.
1013
00:49:10,054 --> 00:49:10,453
True.
1014
00:49:10,503 --> 00:49:13,333
Well, Jen Ford Reedy, president of
the Bush Foundation, thank you so
1015
00:49:13,333 --> 00:49:14,294
much for coming on Let's Hear It.
1016
00:49:14,294 --> 00:49:16,803
Thank you for sharing with us all
of your work and your insights.
1017
00:49:16,803 --> 00:49:19,623
And please go out and find the book
Please Be Good at Philanthropy.
1018
00:49:19,623 --> 00:49:20,133
There you go.
1019
00:49:20,143 --> 00:49:21,156
And we will, we will see you
next time on Let's Hear It.
1020
00:49:21,156 --> 00:49:23,063
Read it, and then be good at philanthropy.
1021
00:49:23,463 --> 00:49:24,643
Read it and be good at philanthropy.
1022
00:49:24,713 --> 00:49:25,403
We'll see you next time.
1023
00:49:25,603 --> 00:49:25,903
Bye.
1024
00:49:28,384 --> 00:49:29,163
Okay, everybody.
1025
00:49:29,163 --> 00:49:30,323
That's it for this episode.
1026
00:49:30,774 --> 00:49:33,203
Please let us know if you have any
thoughts about what you heard today
1027
00:49:33,274 --> 00:49:36,794
or people we should have on this show,
and that definitely includes yourself.
1028
00:49:37,323 --> 00:49:40,814
And we'd like to thank John
Allee, the tuneful and inspiring
1029
00:49:40,814 --> 00:49:42,033
composer of our theme music.
1030
00:49:42,393 --> 00:49:44,993
Our sponsor, the Lumina Foundation.
1031
00:49:44,993 --> 00:49:49,123
And please check out Lumina's
terrific podcast, Today's Students,
1032
00:49:49,163 --> 00:49:52,733
Tomorrow's Talent, and you can
find that at luminafoundation.org.
1033
00:49:52,823 --> 00:49:55,413
We certainly thank today's guest
and, of course, all of you.
1034
00:49:55,533 --> 00:49:58,163
And most importantly,
thank you, Mr. Brown.
1035
00:49:58,263 --> 00:49:59,373
Oh, no, no, no, no.
1036
00:49:59,703 --> 00:50:01,093
Thank you, Mr. Brown.
1037
00:50:01,314 --> 00:50:01,984
Okay, everybody.
1038
00:50:02,084 --> 00:50:02,633
Till next time
00:00:00,667 --> 00:00:01,608
Welcome to Let's Hear It.
2
00:00:01,988 --> 00:00:05,458
Let's Hear It is a podcast for
and about the field of foundation
3
00:00:05,468 --> 00:00:09,738
and nonprofit communications,
produced by its two co-hosts, Eric
4
00:00:09,777 --> 00:00:12,088
Brown and Kirk Brown, no relation.
5
00:00:12,468 --> 00:00:13,317
Well said, Eric.
6
00:00:13,427 --> 00:00:14,047
And I'm Kirk.
7
00:00:14,258 --> 00:00:14,898
And I'm Eric.
8
00:00:15,337 --> 00:00:18,397
Let's Hear It is sponsored by the
Prebys Foundation, a foundation
9
00:00:18,398 --> 00:00:22,217
creating an inclusive, equitable, and
dynamic future for all San Diegans.
10
00:00:22,697 --> 00:00:26,167
Check out their amazingly good
podcast, Stop & Talk, hosted by
11
00:00:26,168 --> 00:00:27,787
Grant Oliphant and Crystal Page.
12
00:00:28,017 --> 00:00:30,558
You can find them at
stopandtalkpodcast.com.
13
00:00:30,757 --> 00:00:33,887
You can find Let's Hear It on any
podcast subscription platform.
14
00:00:33,957 --> 00:00:36,717
You can find us online
at letzhearitcast.com.
15
00:00:36,897 --> 00:00:41,807
And if you like the show, please,
please, please rate us on Apple Podcasts
16
00:00:41,828 --> 00:00:43,407
so that more people can find us.
17
00:00:43,407 --> 00:00:44,397
Let's get onto the show.
18
00:00:45,547 --> 00:00:46,758
Hey, happy summer, almost.
19
00:00:46,767 --> 00:00:47,278
Actually, it's not.
20
00:00:47,607 --> 00:00:49,747
You know, it's so counterintuitive,
it's not even quite summer yet.
21
00:00:49,758 --> 00:00:52,407
It will be summer when this
is dropped, though, right?
22
00:00:52,407 --> 00:00:53,188
It's just coming right up.
23
00:00:53,197 --> 00:00:56,867
Any minute now, and then
days will just get s- darker.
24
00:00:57,187 --> 00:00:58,277
It goes too fast.
25
00:00:58,457 --> 00:00:59,327
It goes too fast.
26
00:00:59,328 --> 00:00:59,827
I hate it.
27
00:01:00,238 --> 00:01:00,668
Yeah.
28
00:01:00,668 --> 00:01:01,034
Yeah, it goes too fast.
29
00:01:01,034 --> 00:01:01,968
Can't we plateau?
30
00:01:03,567 --> 00:01:04,127
Believe me.
31
00:01:05,287 --> 00:01:11,037
I, you know, and, and a- actually, I've
already achieved my own personal human
32
00:01:11,037 --> 00:01:14,077
solstice- … and I'm just getting darker.
33
00:01:15,447 --> 00:01:15,617
Yeah, really.
34
00:01:16,187 --> 00:01:18,077
I thought you were gonna say
you've achieved, you're just
35
00:01:18,077 --> 00:01:19,687
a long, bright, sunny day.
36
00:01:19,687 --> 00:01:20,267
That's what I think
37
00:01:23,067 --> 00:01:23,097
you are.
38
00:01:23,097 --> 00:01:23,738
You're just a long, bright,
crystal clear, sunny day.
39
00:01:23,808 --> 00:01:25,577
Au contraire- Sunny day … mon frere.
40
00:01:25,967 --> 00:01:31,018
So we're on a very interesting
trajectory with Let's Hear It.
41
00:01:31,838 --> 00:01:31,918
Aren't we, though?
42
00:01:31,918 --> 00:01:33,927
And I'm, I'm, I'm getting a little
nervous about it, I have to say.
43
00:01:33,927 --> 00:01:34,887
I should imagine.
44
00:01:35,028 --> 00:01:35,957
I, I would think so.
45
00:01:36,127 --> 00:01:41,977
But, but I think- … what I like about
our conversation today is that we've
46
00:01:41,977 --> 00:01:48,302
got a real expert on tap to lead us
through this conversation, who comes at
47
00:01:48,302 --> 00:01:53,842
this with an enormous amount of personal
and individual credibility, both in
48
00:01:53,842 --> 00:01:56,621
terms of their career trajectory, but
also because of the work they're doing.
49
00:01:56,892 --> 00:01:57,831
I can't wait for this.
50
00:01:57,872 --> 00:02:01,332
And, and honestly, I, I know I give you
a hard time, but I think- Yes, you do
51
00:02:01,341 --> 00:02:03,352
… it's fi- finally I need to say thank you.
52
00:02:03,991 --> 00:02:04,231
What?
53
00:02:04,231 --> 00:02:09,551
Thank you for… Because this is such-
… an important and nuanced conversation.
54
00:02:10,411 --> 00:02:13,701
And by the way, coming from Minnesota, a
state that I'm headed to in a, in about
55
00:02:14,112 --> 00:02:16,602
two weeks for some, for some family time.
56
00:02:17,252 --> 00:02:19,681
So tell us all about what we're
about to hear- Okay … 'cause
57
00:02:19,701 --> 00:02:24,251
this is a great conversation, and I
would dare say incredibly salient,
58
00:02:24,451 --> 00:02:26,032
incredibly timely for our field.
59
00:02:26,552 --> 00:02:28,122
I would say I did this for you.
60
00:02:30,192 --> 00:02:35,642
Because our guest is as Midwestern
nice as a human being could be.
61
00:02:35,651 --> 00:02:37,561
She- And there's a lot
in there, by the way.
62
00:02:37,602 --> 00:02:38,691
There's so much in there.
63
00:02:38,692 --> 00:02:39,521
It's so great.
64
00:02:39,802 --> 00:02:40,482
There is.
65
00:02:40,511 --> 00:02:41,971
Her name is Jen Ford Reedy.
66
00:02:41,971 --> 00:02:47,911
She's the president of the Bush
Foundation in Minnesota, and she,
67
00:02:48,011 --> 00:02:51,731
she's just written a book called
Please Be Good at Philanthropy.
68
00:02:52,581 --> 00:02:53,122
That's great.
69
00:02:53,261 --> 00:02:59,611
Now, obviously we had Glenn Galen on, and
his take was, stop being so sh- you know,
70
00:02:59,611 --> 00:03:04,531
crappy at philanthropy, and Jen's approach
is please be good at philanthropy.
71
00:03:04,561 --> 00:03:07,781
It is a Midwestern polite way to talk.
72
00:03:08,052 --> 00:03:12,861
But the book itself is actually quite
pointed and very straightforward- Mm-hmm
73
00:03:12,872 --> 00:03:18,291
… about how to do philanthropy well and
what the pitfalls are of doing it poorly.
74
00:03:18,291 --> 00:03:22,351
And so we had a terrific conversation
that I enjoyed immensely.
75
00:03:22,471 --> 00:03:24,842
Jen was incredibly fun to talk to.
76
00:03:25,342 --> 00:03:28,661
And, uh, yeah, I, I, I hope people
get a lot from this conversation.
77
00:03:29,031 --> 00:03:30,881
And Jen, thank you for
coming on Let's Hear It.
78
00:03:30,891 --> 00:03:35,521
Jen brings an enormous amount of
credentials to this conversation, not
79
00:03:35,521 --> 00:03:39,511
just having been at Bush since 2012, but
at the Saint Paul & Minnesota Foundation
80
00:03:39,511 --> 00:03:42,581
before that, was at McKinsey before that.
81
00:03:42,662 --> 00:03:46,491
You're about to hear from
top-notch, top-tier leader,
82
00:03:46,521 --> 00:03:48,311
strategic thinker in this field.
83
00:03:48,311 --> 00:03:52,211
So this is Jen Ford Reedy,
president of the Bush Foundation.
84
00:03:52,281 --> 00:03:54,051
We'll listen to Jen on Let's
Hear It, and we'll come back.
85
00:03:56,142 --> 00:03:59,531
There's a problem hiding in
plain sight in philanthropy.
86
00:04:00,052 --> 00:04:01,542
Nobody has to be good at it.
87
00:04:01,952 --> 00:04:07,031
There's no license required, no regulatory
body watching, not really, no market
88
00:04:07,031 --> 00:04:08,692
that punishes you for doing it badly.
89
00:04:09,012 --> 00:04:12,091
You can start a foundation, write
some checks, get celebrated for your
90
00:04:12,091 --> 00:04:16,431
generosity, and never once have to
answer the question, you got a nice
91
00:04:16,431 --> 00:04:19,062
tax deduction, what did society get?
92
00:04:19,642 --> 00:04:23,241
My guest today, Jen Ford Reedy, has
spent more than a decade leading
93
00:04:23,241 --> 00:04:26,842
the Bush Foundation, and she's been
churning over this problem ever since.
94
00:04:27,261 --> 00:04:30,791
Her new book, Please Be Good at
Philanthropy, is a straightforward,
95
00:04:30,921 --> 00:04:33,441
respectful call for better philanthropy.
96
00:04:33,912 --> 00:04:38,211
She argues that good intentions are not
enough, that philanthropy can cause real
97
00:04:38,221 --> 00:04:42,712
harm when done badly, and that the field
needs to get a lot more honest with itself
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about whether it's actually delivering.
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It's a book for newcomers and veterans
alike, and it's really, really good.
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Jen Ford Reedy, welcome to Let's Hear It.
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Thank you.
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It's lovely to be here.
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I loved that intro.
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I hope I didn't mess up by chuckling
throughout, but No way That was great.
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Very entertaining intro.
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No, we're gonna do laugh
tracks later afterwards.
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Okay.
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We can record laugh tracks at the
end and, and insert them throughout.
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Excellent.
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Excellent.
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Okay.
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Yes, we'll do it.
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So, uh, thank you so much
for coming on the show.
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Now, your book is so perfectly timed.
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I, I believe that we're in some
kind of a, a, a large scale
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conversation about philanthropy.
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We're gonna get into why you wrote this
book and what, what you think people
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really need to take away from it.
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But first I wanna talk to,
about you a little bit.
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Okay.
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You're currently president of a
foundation, but you didn't, you
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know, you weren't born that way.
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Uh, and then professionally, I mean,
you spent, uh, nine years at McKinsey.
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Yes.
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Which seems to have been an interesting
proving ground to learn about the
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wild, wonderful world of philanthropy.
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Can you talk a little
bit about those days?
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Well, I'll just say, I mean, the,
the training you get at McKinsey,
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which is a consulting firm for people
who don't know, so you get to work
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with lots of different kinds of
organizations on lots of different
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kinds of problems, is, is, can be useful
training for a lot of different things.
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I'd also say one thing that
was amazing about getting to
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spend a long time at McKinsey is
that you actually get feedback.
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Like people tell you, are
you good at stuff or not?
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So I was regularly getting
feedback on stuff that I thought
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I was pretty good at, you know?
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And you actually get used to the
idea of like, oh, you always have
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an opportunity to get better.
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You have an opportunity to get better,
you have an opport- And you start
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actually getting kind of addicted
to that idea that you can do better.
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So I think, I think there are parts of
that that are still in me and feeling like
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we don't do that so well in philanthropy.
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But in general, the skillset you
get at, at McKinsey, the ability
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to analyze problems, you know,
something you can use for good or
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for ill, like it's just a skillset.
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Um, and there are a lot of ways
where I've had to build on or, you
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know, shift how I was thinking about
problems coming from that more sort of
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business oriented analytic approach.
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And there were a lot of ways where I
was humbled coming into philanthropy,
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and that's a big part of the book too,
is saying like, if you're coming in,
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you're probably good at something.
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Um, but that doesn't mean you're
just naturally good at philanthropy.
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Well, I think you become a much better
singer and funnier joke teller when
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you come into philanthropy, you know?
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It's extraordinary.
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It's one of the things that gets
in the way of us being good, right?
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Is that for a whole variety of reasons,
we don't get very good, honest feedback.
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Yeah.
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And that's certainly one of them,
that you, you don't wanna bite the
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hand that feeds you or could someday
feed you and Right … so you, you're
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not getting… You have to work hard.
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You have to be intentional and put
effort in if you're actually gonna get
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meaningful feedback that lets you know
whether you're good at what you do or not.
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Well, okay, so I wanna talk about
the Bush Foundation 'cause it, it's
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really a very interesting foundation.
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So the, we say it's not beans, it's
not beer- … and it's not presidents.
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It's a different Bush.
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Our, our Bush is Archie Bush.
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Yeah.
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Who's one of the guys who built
3M into a major corporation.
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He and his wife, Edith, established
the foundation in the '50s,
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and he was truly a good guy.
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Like, we are very lucky in our origin
story, um, that Archie was really a
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generous guy, and he left us with-
Enormous flexibility, like with intention-
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Mm … like in the founding documents
saying that, um, talking about, you know,
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the dead, dead, dead hand of the donor.
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Which if you've used that phrase, it means
you've done some of your research in sort
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of understanding how, how foundations
and trusts can go awry, and he didn't
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want that for the Bush Foundation.
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He wanted us to be relevant and useful.
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And so we have very little
restriction technically.
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Mm. And then a really inspiring donor
example to work from, um, which is a
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lovely place to get to operate from.
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And- Yeah … our orientation is
around problem-solving, so we're not
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organized around specific issues with
specific goals of what we're trying
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to get accomplished in those areas.
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We're- Mm … organized around the
capacity of the communities that we serve
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to solve problems, whatever those problems
are, whatever's important to communities.
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So we work in Minnesota, North Dakota,
South Dakota, and 23 Native nations,
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and really, in a variety of ways,
are just supporting problem-solving
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capacity and then really big-thinking
problem-solving efforts to address issues.
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Right.
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When you first got to the foundation,
obviously you had had insight into
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philanthropy from having worked at a
consultant at, um, at the Death Star.
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Well, maybe some of my best friends work
at McKinsey, but yeah, so it's a model.
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And, and so you had insight, but, but
nobody I think really understands what a
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foundation is like until they're actually
in there and, you know, drinking the
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free drinks from the, you know, the, the
refrigerator and other things like that.
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Yeah.
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I did have a, I did have
a stop in between, where I
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worked at a- Ah … community
foundation, so that helped a lot.
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And so it really helped that I'd worked
in philanthropy before I was the leader
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of a foundation which is remarkably
not the case for- … you know, so
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many people coming into philanthropy.
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Even at the presidential level, it's
like we do not value philanthropic
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experience even in our hiring process.
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So, you know, the number of
people who- whose first gig in
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philanthropy is running a foundation
is, is pretty amazing actually.
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It is.
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We, we actually had two at the Hewlett
Foundation, but they were very impressive.
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You know, they both did it really well.
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They were really smart people,
and they were people with learning
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orientation, both those folks.
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But it is strange.
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It's a strange thing about our field.
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Yeah.
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And, and that's fine.
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I mean, you can have a profession
where there's a bunch of credentials
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before you can work in it, and then,
you know, there are real negatives
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about that in terms of making it
hard to get in, keeping people out.
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And, you know, if you really wanna
have, have a, a field where you
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have true diversity and- Yeah
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of backgrounds and people work
in it, then it's nice not to
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have those barriers to entry.
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But if that's the case, then you've gotta
be great at training people once they
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get in, to have neither of those things,
to have not sort of expectations coming
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in or good support once you get in.
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Means, you know, we're just
all learning on the job.
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Yeah.
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And relearning on the job, right?
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Right.
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As each, each new person comes in, in
a way that makes us, you know, less
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effective as individual practitioners,
less effective as institutions,
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and less effective as a field.
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All right.
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So you, you come in.
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Uh, now you're the
president of the foundation.
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Yeah.
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So you've worked at a community
foundation, uh, and you also, you
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know, w- worked at a consulting firm.
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W- how did you think about … Oh,
okay, if I were the president of
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a foundation, I, I, I don't think
I'd have a clue about what to do.
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But you seem to have done
a pretty good job so far.
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So how did you find this role, and
how did you find this field once
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00:11:32,990 --> 00:11:34,479
you were deeply on the inside of it?
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Uh, well, I had probably more experience
with philanthropy in general because of
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getting to serve a number of foundations
at McKinsey and outside of McKinsey,
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and then my foundation experience.
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But I also knew Bush.
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Like, I'd- Yeah … actually
been a partner with Bush, so it
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gave me insight into what I wish
I- Ah … Bush did differently.
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Um, you know, because I was in the orbit
and, and actively working in partnership.
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There were some things that, to me,
were very clear of a, "Oh, I see
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ways that this could be stronger."
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And, you know, you come in and you
talk to all the staff, you talk to
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stakeholders, you talk to board.
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Like, you're going around and
learning, you know, everyone else's
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experience, and there were some things
that were very- Mm … um, clear.
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There were some things
that were real ahas for me.
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Um, and I'll tell you one particular
aha, which is probably, you know,
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quite related to coming in with
a McKinsey-esque orientation into
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philanthropy, is that, you know, we have
done a Bush Fellows program since 1965.
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I mean, way back when Archie Bush was
still here, he designed this program.
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Wow.
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That was the kind of program he
wished he could have had as a leader.
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It's a amazing program.
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I'd lo- I mean, it's, it's $150,000
to leaders to invest in themselves.
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I mean, it's, it's amazing, right?
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This program.
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And I came in and thought, "Well,
you know, we've always done that
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program, we'll keep doing it."
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Like, but it's hard to measure and don't
really know if it's having an impact.
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Like, that was kind of
my orientation coming in.
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Then I went around the
region talking to people.
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Over and over and over, I would run
into people who were Bush Fellows
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who would say what a transformational
experience it was, and saying, you
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00:13:04,564 --> 00:13:08,113
know, "It fundamentally changed what
I thought was possible in my life."
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And to me it was kind … Like, hearing
the people say it in the same words
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even over and over, I was like, "Oh,
it's hard to measure, but there's
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something really powerful there." And I
think part of it is thinking like, "Oh,
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we're a place-based foundation, right?
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We're this place.
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We can only be in this place what the
people in it believe they can be, and
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are willing to work to be, and, you know,
have the skills to, to do that work."
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And realizing like, "Oh, actually, if
we could do all our grant making in a
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00:13:39,503 --> 00:13:45,684
way that actually helped people think
bigger about what was possible, that
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may be the highest value thing we could
do, even if, you know, that particular
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aspect of the work is not measurable.
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So it, it was one of my first lessons
in sort of like shifting a, a mind away
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from a d- a definition of impact that
limits you in ways that undervalue, in
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00:14:08,692 --> 00:14:12,022
some ways, the, the spiritual parts of
the work, which are sometimes- Mm-hmm
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00:14:12,022 --> 00:14:12,842
the most powerful, right?
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00:14:12,842 --> 00:14:16,062
It's the hearts and minds and, and
belief- Yeah … part of the work.
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Yeah, for sure.
295
00:14:17,232 --> 00:14:18,121
Well, you know, it's interesting.
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My old boss, Larry Kramer, at Hewlett,
which was a very analytic place- Yeah
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00:14:21,941 --> 00:14:26,071
… he absolutely warned against the precision
of numbers, the, the, what do you call,
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00:14:26,071 --> 00:14:27,972
the f- the false precision of numbers.
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00:14:28,031 --> 00:14:30,691
I mean, you could come up with an
expected return of some kind of investment
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00:14:30,692 --> 00:14:33,401
or something like that, and it was a
number, it had a decimal point in it.
301
00:14:33,411 --> 00:14:33,431
Yeah.
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00:14:33,431 --> 00:14:34,951
And you're like, you know, uh, whatever.
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00:14:35,542 --> 00:14:38,082
But, you know, sometimes we also
have to fall back on the, the old
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00:14:38,082 --> 00:14:41,411
Potter Stewart thing, which is, you
know, we'll know it when we see it.
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00:14:41,492 --> 00:14:43,122
But- Know it when you see it … what
I think that your point is that
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00:14:43,122 --> 00:14:45,641
you're also telling stories about
the effects of the grants and the
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00:14:45,652 --> 00:14:46,871
people who participated in them.
308
00:14:47,132 --> 00:14:47,332
Yeah.
309
00:14:47,332 --> 00:14:50,022
A- and that kind of communications
component is important.
310
00:14:50,022 --> 00:14:50,281
Yeah.
311
00:14:50,481 --> 00:14:52,472
And we- we'll get to that in a minute.
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00:14:52,521 --> 00:14:55,671
But I wanna turn to the book,
because first of all, it
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00:14:55,671 --> 00:14:57,292
is a very Midwestern title.
314
00:14:57,851 --> 00:15:00,411
Um, Please Be Good at Philanthropy.
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00:15:02,062 --> 00:15:05,632
That is published by a not so,
yeah- Please … not so Midwestern-
316
00:15:05,632 --> 00:15:08,612
Please … sounding publisher called
Disruption Books, which I also find
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00:15:08,612 --> 00:15:10,241
to be an elegant partnership there.
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00:15:10,801 --> 00:15:13,331
You start this book by saying
that the field is, and in a
319
00:15:13,331 --> 00:15:17,581
very polite way, under-oriented
toward being good at what we do.
320
00:15:18,132 --> 00:15:19,031
We're falling short.
321
00:15:19,331 --> 00:15:23,291
What do you say the most common ways
that foundations fall short are?
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00:15:23,681 --> 00:15:30,770
I mean, I think- In really fundamental
ways, we don't have definitions of what
323
00:15:30,770 --> 00:15:32,410
it means for us to be good at our jobs.
324
00:15:32,959 --> 00:15:33,819
I mean, we just don't.
325
00:15:33,899 --> 00:15:37,390
It's that fundamental that I
think, you know, the question
326
00:15:37,390 --> 00:15:38,800
is, are you good at philanthropy?
327
00:15:39,189 --> 00:15:39,930
How do you know?
328
00:15:39,939 --> 00:15:39,969
Yes.
329
00:15:40,740 --> 00:15:44,979
And there are a whole bunch of reasons why
those are really hard to answer questions.
330
00:15:45,050 --> 00:15:46,439
We've already alluded to some of them.
331
00:15:47,050 --> 00:15:49,679
Um, you know, it's also hard
because we're trying to do things
332
00:15:49,679 --> 00:15:50,699
that are hard to measure, right?
333
00:15:50,729 --> 00:15:57,560
But, but in a very basic sense, we
don't have a performance management
334
00:15:57,569 --> 00:16:03,029
mindset or performance improvement
mindset in a way that's really basic
335
00:16:03,039 --> 00:16:04,569
for other kinds of organizations.
336
00:16:04,569 --> 00:16:06,949
And there are parts of this book where
I thought, oh, if you're really coming
337
00:16:06,959 --> 00:16:10,290
in from outside of philanthropy, you'll
read it and just be like, "Well, yeah.
338
00:16:10,719 --> 00:16:15,009
Sure." "Definitely you should do that."
And I was like, no, actually in our
339
00:16:15,129 --> 00:16:18,189
field, this is not what we normally do.
340
00:16:18,209 --> 00:16:19,660
This is not how it happens.
341
00:16:19,660 --> 00:16:23,619
And I think there are all different
reasons for that, like, you know,
342
00:16:24,169 --> 00:16:28,079
trying to measure ourselves based on
the impact we have out in the world,
343
00:16:28,079 --> 00:16:29,479
which is really hard to measure.
344
00:16:29,489 --> 00:16:29,509
Yeah.
345
00:16:29,509 --> 00:16:32,099
So then you can get sort of
obsessed with that and not actually
346
00:16:32,130 --> 00:16:34,469
understand what you're doing.
347
00:16:34,489 --> 00:16:40,780
I think one really significant cultural
thing for our field has been, for
348
00:16:40,780 --> 00:16:46,259
a long time, for a lot of people,
feeling like, um, it was noble to
349
00:16:46,259 --> 00:16:47,980
make it about the grantees, right?
350
00:16:47,980 --> 00:16:48,739
It's not about us.
351
00:16:48,739 --> 00:16:49,409
It's not about us.
352
00:16:49,410 --> 00:16:50,019
It's not about us.
353
00:16:50,929 --> 00:16:52,840
And, and that was with really good intent.
354
00:16:52,929 --> 00:16:56,369
But what it means is… Well, one thing
it means is that we're black boxes, right?
355
00:16:56,369 --> 00:16:59,489
People don't understand us 'cause we
don't talk about ourselves and what we do.
356
00:16:59,879 --> 00:17:04,059
But it also means we don't have the
skills or the habits or the processes
357
00:17:04,059 --> 00:17:07,109
to actually be able to say, "This
is what we do, and this is how you
358
00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:09,129
know we're doing it well or not."
359
00:17:09,609 --> 00:17:11,149
You know, that's so interesting.
360
00:17:11,399 --> 00:17:16,039
So I think this combination of maybe
false humility coupled with, I don't
361
00:17:16,039 --> 00:17:18,819
know what else, this, this lack
of enemies in nature that you talk
362
00:17:18,829 --> 00:17:22,579
about, no regulators, no enemies,
means that we, like we have- Yeah.
363
00:17:22,579 --> 00:17:25,299
Yeah … we're missing those skills,
that we can't run fast, and we don't
364
00:17:25,300 --> 00:17:28,599
have sharp teeth, so we haven't evolved
into something that's effective.
365
00:17:28,609 --> 00:17:28,629
Yeah.
366
00:17:28,859 --> 00:17:31,029
Especially, you know,
especially in communications.
367
00:17:31,550 --> 00:17:33,230
So we're gonna take a
very, very quick break.
368
00:17:33,269 --> 00:17:34,009
Don't go anywhere.
369
00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:38,459
We're gonna be back and dig into this book
because there is so much to talk about.
370
00:17:38,460 --> 00:17:41,479
We'll be right back with Jen
Ford Reedy right after this.
371
00:17:43,570 --> 00:17:46,429
You're listening to Let's Hear
It, a podcast about foundation and
372
00:17:46,429 --> 00:17:49,829
nonprofit communications hosted
by Eric Brown and Kirk Brown.
373
00:17:50,249 --> 00:17:53,019
If you're enjoying this episode,
you may just be a rule breaker.
374
00:17:53,130 --> 00:17:58,520
Check out season three of Break Fake
Rules with Glenn Galich, CEO of the
375
00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:01,339
Stupski Foundation, as he chats with
inspiring leaders in philanthropy,
376
00:18:01,339 --> 00:18:04,670
government, media, and more about
breaking the fake rules that don't work
377
00:18:04,969 --> 00:18:06,789
so that we can build a future that does.
378
00:18:07,179 --> 00:18:08,970
Check them out wherever
you get your podcasts.
379
00:18:09,639 --> 00:18:11,169
And now, back to the show.
380
00:18:16,182 --> 00:18:20,182
And we are back with Jen Ford Reedy, whose
new book, Please Be Good at Philanthropy,
381
00:18:20,182 --> 00:18:26,112
from Disruption Books, is such a
interesting and wonderful little companion
382
00:18:26,112 --> 00:18:30,252
piece to the other big book that's just
come out, Control, by, by Glenn Galen.
383
00:18:30,252 --> 00:18:33,511
He's a funder of ours, just, you know,
for full ex- uh, full disclosure.
384
00:18:33,511 --> 00:18:36,391
But anyway, he, he kinda
drops this depth charge.
385
00:18:36,392 --> 00:18:40,842
He's very, very pointed about what
philanthropy does wrong and why.
386
00:18:41,472 --> 00:18:44,262
Uh, y- y- you've taken a
slightly different approach
387
00:18:44,262 --> 00:18:47,131
around the prescriptions for
how philanthropy can get better.
388
00:18:47,552 --> 00:18:51,862
And one of those things that has, you
know, chapped my hide completely is
389
00:18:51,862 --> 00:18:54,252
this new report from the Center for
Effective Philanthropy that shows
390
00:18:54,252 --> 00:18:58,541
this phenomenal disconnect between
what foundations think they're doing
391
00:18:58,831 --> 00:19:00,971
and what grantees are experiencing.
392
00:19:01,392 --> 00:19:06,602
And for, for me anyway, this, this is,
like, a huge wake-up call for foundations
393
00:19:06,602 --> 00:19:11,441
to do better, to better connect with
grantees, to help them understand what
394
00:19:11,441 --> 00:19:13,361
their needs are, and filling those needs.
395
00:19:13,361 --> 00:19:16,311
And I'm just wondering if you have,
if you've heard, what your own
396
00:19:16,322 --> 00:19:19,381
response is to this, this research,
about what your counterparts in
397
00:19:19,381 --> 00:19:20,752
philanthropy are saying about it.
398
00:19:20,752 --> 00:19:22,542
I, I mean, I think it's traveling.
399
00:19:22,551 --> 00:19:25,121
I think people are reading
it and, and understanding.
400
00:19:25,131 --> 00:19:29,121
And I think, I mean, you're right to bring
it into the conversation as potentially
401
00:19:29,121 --> 00:19:33,441
a case in point of how feedback loops
are not happening, the way you actually
402
00:19:33,441 --> 00:19:37,241
need to have feedbacks loop, loops
happen to be good at anything, right?
403
00:19:37,682 --> 00:19:42,421
Um, I mean, there's always some part when
there's sort of this is what nonprofits
404
00:19:42,671 --> 00:19:46,832
think about philanthropy and this is what
foundations think, that there should be
405
00:19:46,832 --> 00:19:51,471
some degree of disconnect because we're
actually doing two different jobs, and
406
00:19:51,471 --> 00:19:52,531
we're doing it in partnership, right?
407
00:19:52,531 --> 00:19:56,071
So we're each bringing, um, different
perspectives, different purposes.
408
00:19:56,311 --> 00:20:00,451
But I think what the CEP report helpfully
shows is, like, a degree of disconnect
409
00:20:00,481 --> 00:20:05,911
that suggests, like, something is really
off in, in how we're understanding the
410
00:20:05,911 --> 00:20:11,672
problem, how we're getting and processing
information as partner organizations,
411
00:20:11,672 --> 00:20:14,671
as co-conspirators, or what- whatever
the relationship is between, you
412
00:20:14,671 --> 00:20:15,891
know, foundations and their grantees.
413
00:20:15,901 --> 00:20:18,762
Like, we need each other, and
so we need to be understanding
414
00:20:18,762 --> 00:20:19,721
each other's experience.
415
00:20:19,721 --> 00:20:22,741
We need to understand each other's
purpose, and we need to understand how
416
00:20:22,741 --> 00:20:27,201
we work in alignment to get to, you
know, the shared purposes that we have.
417
00:20:27,481 --> 00:20:27,701
All right.
418
00:20:27,701 --> 00:20:30,481
So you write in the book a lot about
trying to listen and hear and get
419
00:20:30,481 --> 00:20:34,382
information, notwithstanding the
disproportionate power relationship
420
00:20:34,392 --> 00:20:35,872
between grantees and their funders.
421
00:20:36,061 --> 00:20:36,321
Yeah.
422
00:20:36,531 --> 00:20:37,821
Uh, w- what are you doing?
423
00:20:38,162 --> 00:20:41,882
How are you advising people to get
that kind of honest feedback to, to
424
00:20:41,882 --> 00:20:43,651
learn the, kind of the real stuff?
425
00:20:43,681 --> 00:20:46,311
Well, I mean, there's not one
answer to that, which is true
426
00:20:46,311 --> 00:20:48,881
of every question you would ask
about foundation practice, right?
427
00:20:48,881 --> 00:20:52,346
That's part of the book is
actually saying, like- We tend
428
00:20:52,346 --> 00:20:53,766
to should each other a lot.
429
00:20:53,776 --> 00:20:55,446
Like, you should do this, you
should do that, you should do that.
430
00:20:55,666 --> 00:20:58,386
And it may or may not apply-
Yeah … given what we're doing.
431
00:20:58,386 --> 00:21:01,865
So I feel like the, the main advice
is for what you are trying to do,
432
00:21:02,105 --> 00:21:07,765
foundation X, what do you need to know
to be smart enough to do that well?
433
00:21:07,945 --> 00:21:10,505
What do you need to know to
understand the risks that you're
434
00:21:10,505 --> 00:21:11,495
creating for other people?
435
00:21:11,495 --> 00:21:16,215
What do you need to know about whether
people want this intervention or not?
436
00:21:16,216 --> 00:21:18,885
What do you need to know about what
it would actually take in terms
437
00:21:18,886 --> 00:21:22,325
of having the supports and the
incentives and the resources to
438
00:21:22,325 --> 00:21:23,595
actually make the change happen?
439
00:21:23,595 --> 00:21:28,276
I mean, I think talking to
community has been within the field
440
00:21:28,276 --> 00:21:31,076
sometimes in a you should category.
441
00:21:31,595 --> 00:21:35,115
And I just feel like it is strongly
in a, like if you use a competence
442
00:21:35,116 --> 00:21:37,936
frame, it's just like, do you
wanna be good at what you do?
443
00:21:38,206 --> 00:21:41,295
Do you wanna actually have the
impact that you say you wanna have?
444
00:21:41,636 --> 00:21:46,149
Well, you can't do it Without
really listening and understanding.
445
00:21:46,159 --> 00:21:46,180
Yeah.
446
00:21:46,510 --> 00:21:49,540
And the specifics of that will be
very different, whether you're doing
447
00:21:49,540 --> 00:21:52,350
something global, whether you're doing
something local, whether you're doing
448
00:21:52,350 --> 00:21:55,409
something about, you know, curing a
disease, whether you're doing something
449
00:21:55,469 --> 00:21:58,000
about, you know, how people are
experiencing the criminal justice system.
450
00:21:58,009 --> 00:21:59,029
Like, it's, it's different.
451
00:21:59,030 --> 00:22:03,139
But I think we have, um, a number
of resources, you know, groups that
452
00:22:03,139 --> 00:22:06,170
have come up that are specifically
about, like, trying to help
453
00:22:06,170 --> 00:22:10,059
foundations get good feedback,
and I reference them in the book.
454
00:22:10,069 --> 00:22:10,089
Yeah.
455
00:22:10,099 --> 00:22:10,579
Throughout the book.
456
00:22:10,579 --> 00:22:15,509
I try to, you know, point people
towards, um, you know, folks who can give
457
00:22:15,669 --> 00:22:20,159
counsel, because it does take effort,
and so you have to believe that it's
458
00:22:20,549 --> 00:22:25,339
central, I think, to being good for
some folks to feel motivated to do it.
459
00:22:25,379 --> 00:22:29,649
Well, you talk a lot about this kind
of formal learning mentality- Yeah
460
00:22:29,650 --> 00:22:31,050
… which I think is really interesting.
461
00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:33,229
So y- and you cite so many resources.
462
00:22:33,229 --> 00:22:37,499
There's lots of information out there and
resources, orgi- organizations who can
463
00:22:37,499 --> 00:22:39,609
support people doing better philanthropy.
464
00:22:39,959 --> 00:22:44,379
And obviously, so- someone is taking them
up on it, or else they wouldn't exist.
465
00:22:44,399 --> 00:22:49,440
But, but my sense from reading the book
was that foundations really can… I
466
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:53,369
mean, they should, for the most part,
find ways to learn as much as possible.
467
00:22:53,370 --> 00:22:53,600
Learn, yeah.
468
00:22:54,269 --> 00:22:54,479
Yeah.
469
00:22:54,499 --> 00:22:57,090
And that sometimes you go to a
foundation, all of a sudden you're,
470
00:22:57,090 --> 00:22:59,539
you know, you become the expert, the
genius- Yeah … because you have the
471
00:22:59,540 --> 00:23:01,570
checkbook, but that's really not the case.
472
00:23:02,279 --> 00:23:07,069
Uh, how, how do you learn, and what
are the things that you encourage your
473
00:23:07,069 --> 00:23:12,540
counterparts at other foundations to do
in order to learn more about their work?
474
00:23:12,610 --> 00:23:15,379
Well, some part of it is, like, the
intentional acknowledgement, right?
475
00:23:15,389 --> 00:23:18,519
And to say what you're saying, like,
we have to learn, keep learning
476
00:23:18,519 --> 00:23:20,349
to, in order to be effective.
477
00:23:20,349 --> 00:23:22,690
I think within Bush, I can say
we do it at all different levels.
478
00:23:22,699 --> 00:23:25,729
So it's like every year, this
is our engagement priority.
479
00:23:25,729 --> 00:23:29,279
Like, we're not doing enough in western
North Dakota, or we're not doing enough
480
00:23:29,290 --> 00:23:31,190
with- Mm … this cultural community.
481
00:23:31,220 --> 00:23:32,039
What do we need to learn?
482
00:23:32,049 --> 00:23:34,060
Like, how are we going out
and having the conversations?
483
00:23:34,060 --> 00:23:35,009
How are we understanding issues?
484
00:23:35,019 --> 00:23:38,100
Also, how are we actually
doing internal learning?
485
00:23:38,110 --> 00:23:41,310
Like, we'll have someone come in and do a
workshop for us on what- Mm-hmm … what
486
00:23:41,310 --> 00:23:44,649
don't we understand about… There
are, you know, big-picture strategic
487
00:23:44,650 --> 00:23:45,930
learning we do at different times.
488
00:23:45,930 --> 00:23:49,289
Like, how do we learn how people
are experiencing a program?
489
00:23:49,299 --> 00:23:51,899
So when we're doing a five-year
strategy or review of a program, how
490
00:23:51,900 --> 00:23:54,969
are we out talking to stakeholders to
understand is this working, is it not?
491
00:23:55,469 --> 00:23:58,389
There's the, you know, how do
we anonymously survey people-
492
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:00,359
Mm … different times to get feedback.
493
00:24:00,810 --> 00:24:03,829
Uh, it, it's at all different
levels, and I think it's sort of
494
00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:07,529
like once you start doing it, you
get a little addicted, I think-
495
00:24:07,529 --> 00:24:09,850
to feeling like, oh, we can get
better if we actually have the
496
00:24:09,850 --> 00:24:11,229
information that helps us get better.
497
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:15,790
And sometimes it's little things like I
mentioned earlier Bush Fellows Program.
498
00:24:16,230 --> 00:24:19,639
We'll have an open mic session at
the board meeting where a Bush Fellow
499
00:24:19,639 --> 00:24:22,250
comes in and they can say anything
they want to the Bush board, right?
500
00:24:22,260 --> 00:24:22,270
Ah.
501
00:24:22,270 --> 00:24:24,620
So we try to pick people different
parts of our region working on
502
00:24:24,620 --> 00:24:27,009
different issues and say, "What do
you think the Bush board should know?"
503
00:24:27,050 --> 00:24:28,749
And they can say anything, you know.
504
00:24:28,750 --> 00:24:32,859
And, and then, you know, we have a
board retreat coming up in August.
505
00:24:32,859 --> 00:24:35,779
We'll be out in Sioux Falls meeting
with people, and the board directly
506
00:24:35,780 --> 00:24:39,819
meeting with people, and board and
staff together learning on panels of
507
00:24:39,859 --> 00:24:41,060
issues that we're trying to explore.
508
00:24:41,060 --> 00:24:43,559
So it's, I mean, it can be all throughout.
509
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:47,870
Well, this is amazing 'cause you're
generating this level of inquiry and
510
00:24:47,870 --> 00:24:50,019
interest and competence internally.
511
00:24:50,199 --> 00:24:53,249
This is coming from within
and not from without.
512
00:24:53,809 --> 00:24:57,819
And as you say, there are very- Yeah
… very few constraints on philanthropy.
513
00:24:57,829 --> 00:25:03,430
There's no particular accountability, and
foundations feel, especially now, like
514
00:25:03,430 --> 00:25:05,259
they're in some kind of defensive crouch.
515
00:25:05,649 --> 00:25:08,959
But you argue in the book that
this is mostly self-imposed.
516
00:25:09,259 --> 00:25:12,068
So- I'm, I'm just so curious.
517
00:25:12,068 --> 00:25:14,728
There are so many ways to think
about what we could do about this.
518
00:25:15,258 --> 00:25:17,518
Uh, what, what would create the pressure?
519
00:25:18,138 --> 00:25:18,498
I don't know.
520
00:25:18,498 --> 00:25:21,378
Are there constraints or
accountability mechanisms that we
521
00:25:21,408 --> 00:25:26,278
ought to be putting on philanthropy
to get them to be more competent?
522
00:25:26,347 --> 00:25:27,168
I don't know.
523
00:25:27,168 --> 00:25:29,817
It's, it's hard to think about
accounting m- accountability
524
00:25:29,818 --> 00:25:31,568
mechanisms for effectiveness.
525
00:25:31,587 --> 00:25:33,057
I mean, that's part of the trick.
526
00:25:33,417 --> 00:25:37,897
I, I think part of what we haven't
done though is to create even the
527
00:25:37,897 --> 00:25:40,897
expectation that you should- Mm-hmm
… be good at philanthropy, right?
528
00:25:40,897 --> 00:25:46,258
So even within the field, when
someone's brand new to a new
529
00:25:46,267 --> 00:25:51,288
foundation position or brand new in
philanthropy, we will celebrate them.
530
00:25:52,478 --> 00:25:53,568
Because now they're giving money.
531
00:25:53,568 --> 00:25:56,688
You know, as opposed to saying like-
Yeah … "Oh, welcome to the field.
532
00:25:56,857 --> 00:26:00,538
You're gonna have to learn stuff."
You know, I f- I think that the fact
533
00:26:00,548 --> 00:26:04,417
that it's mostly an apprenticeship for
people coming into foundations, right?
534
00:26:04,417 --> 00:26:07,677
So they come in and they're told,
"Well, this is how you do it.
535
00:26:07,708 --> 00:26:10,877
We make $10,000 grants."
"We make them quarterly.
536
00:26:11,087 --> 00:26:13,908
This is our process." And then
you're like, "Oh, okay." And then
537
00:26:13,908 --> 00:26:16,028
you learn to do that really well.
538
00:26:16,397 --> 00:26:16,537
Yeah.
539
00:26:16,597 --> 00:26:20,358
And you do exactly what you've been
taught philanthropy is, 'cause you only
540
00:26:20,358 --> 00:26:22,387
know what you do in that organization.
541
00:26:22,777 --> 00:26:25,718
I think part of what I'm hoping with
the book is if you can orient people
542
00:26:25,718 --> 00:26:28,827
from the beginning to just have
consciousness that every single thing
543
00:26:28,827 --> 00:26:30,498
your foundation do- is doing is a choice.
544
00:26:30,887 --> 00:26:31,177
Yeah.
545
00:26:31,698 --> 00:26:32,358
Everything's a choice.
546
00:26:32,368 --> 00:26:35,778
So job number one, go in and understand
those choices and learn to do that.
547
00:26:36,368 --> 00:26:40,607
But then you can think about
are those choices serving you?
548
00:26:41,087 --> 00:26:41,117
Right.
549
00:26:41,507 --> 00:26:45,878
And if you have clarity on what your
actual purpose is, then you have a way
550
00:26:45,878 --> 00:26:51,908
of asking those questions to say, do
these choices make sense relative to
551
00:26:51,948 --> 00:26:54,668
our purpose and what we're trying to do?
552
00:26:54,677 --> 00:26:55,128
Mm-hmm.
553
00:26:55,128 --> 00:26:59,747
I also think, um, you know, those of
you out in California where you are,
554
00:26:59,747 --> 00:27:04,647
you are in the, you know, the hotbed
of, you know, ex- super- … smart
555
00:27:04,838 --> 00:27:09,487
people who have made money doing one
thing, who are coming in and believing
556
00:27:09,487 --> 00:27:11,347
they're gonna disrupt philanthropy.
557
00:27:11,347 --> 00:27:11,387
Yeah.
558
00:27:11,387 --> 00:27:11,707
Right?
559
00:27:12,397 --> 00:27:15,528
And I think there are a lot of us who
are like, "Please, please, please."
560
00:27:15,528 --> 00:27:15,847
You know?
561
00:27:16,007 --> 00:27:18,077
Like, there's stuff you have to learn.
562
00:27:18,127 --> 00:27:22,827
But if we as the institutional
right, field, right, if we as the
563
00:27:22,827 --> 00:27:25,547
professionals aren't even good at
saying to people coming into our
564
00:27:25,548 --> 00:27:28,897
institution, "You have stuff to learn"-
Yeah … like, how are we creating a
565
00:27:28,897 --> 00:27:32,787
broader expectation, almost culturally
throughout the country, that this is
566
00:27:32,787 --> 00:27:34,698
a, this is a skill you have to learn?
567
00:27:34,967 --> 00:27:38,157
So that when there's the big announcement
that somebody's gonna create a
568
00:27:38,158 --> 00:27:42,267
foundation, the reporters are asking
questions that are like, "Well, how
569
00:27:42,268 --> 00:27:43,347
are you gonna learn how to do that?
570
00:27:43,357 --> 00:27:46,717
How are you testing?" As opposed to just,
"What change are you gonna do?" Right.
571
00:27:46,717 --> 00:27:48,767
"And we're gonna celebrate you
for having that intention."
572
00:27:49,208 --> 00:27:57,374
Um, or you know, the ability to expect-
Reports on what happens to those things
573
00:27:57,374 --> 00:28:02,744
that, you know, are announced with fanfare
and, and the ability to ask the follow-up
574
00:28:02,744 --> 00:28:08,444
questions and have more attention to
each other and attention to foundations
575
00:28:08,444 --> 00:28:12,834
just generally that's more about
like, well, what impact did you have?
576
00:28:12,843 --> 00:28:13,973
How, how did it go?
577
00:28:13,974 --> 00:28:14,934
How did people feel about it?
578
00:28:14,934 --> 00:28:20,093
Like, how do you- Yeah … give more
people kind of the, the questions or
579
00:28:20,093 --> 00:28:25,364
the orientation to not just celebrate
intent and not just celebrate intent
580
00:28:25,454 --> 00:28:32,153
or intent and, and good wishes, um,
to say like, "That's great that you
581
00:28:32,153 --> 00:28:35,454
have that, but as we're gonna talk
about the work of your foundation,
582
00:28:35,894 --> 00:28:37,133
it's not gonna be on those terms."
583
00:28:37,234 --> 00:28:39,243
Talking about the work of the
foundation, you write about how
584
00:28:39,243 --> 00:28:43,463
talking about successes are important,
'cause we wanna be able to know it
585
00:28:43,464 --> 00:28:46,973
worked and, you know, we wanna be
able to take stock of how we're doing.
586
00:28:47,808 --> 00:28:50,228
Uh, you know, are we, are
we earning our tax break?
587
00:28:50,228 --> 00:28:50,288
Yeah.
588
00:28:50,288 --> 00:28:51,138
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
589
00:28:51,188 --> 00:28:51,358
Yeah.
590
00:28:51,418 --> 00:28:54,748
But what didn't go right is equally as
important because you have to be able to
591
00:28:54,768 --> 00:28:59,007
help alert people about, you know, like,
"Don't waste money on this strategy,"
592
00:28:59,107 --> 00:29:02,288
or, "If you wanna really pursue a
strategy like this, you can learn from
593
00:29:02,288 --> 00:29:04,147
the things that we did that didn't- Yeah
594
00:29:04,147 --> 00:29:08,177
go according to plan." You write about
some of these great philanthropic
595
00:29:08,217 --> 00:29:10,147
moonshots that- Yes … didn't pan out.
596
00:29:10,197 --> 00:29:10,717
Yes.
597
00:29:11,387 --> 00:29:14,017
And I've always said, you know, a
road closed sign is one of the most
598
00:29:14,018 --> 00:29:15,918
important signs in transportation.
599
00:29:18,307 --> 00:29:19,407
That is very true.
600
00:29:19,437 --> 00:29:20,188
That's good.
601
00:29:20,517 --> 00:29:22,398
So for whatever reason, they don't
see the value in helping their
602
00:29:22,398 --> 00:29:24,087
colleagues know what not to do.
603
00:29:24,138 --> 00:29:27,767
Can you talk about how we can be
better about sharing what doesn't work?
604
00:29:27,907 --> 00:29:30,577
I think there are lots of different
dimensions of that, and one is, in
605
00:29:30,578 --> 00:29:34,347
general, we don't put a lot of time into
understanding and sharing the results
606
00:29:34,348 --> 00:29:36,147
of our evaluations, good or bad, right?
607
00:29:36,168 --> 00:29:39,157
Like, but then the bad part does get
complicated when something doesn't
608
00:29:39,168 --> 00:29:42,767
work, for a lot of reasons, including
not wanting to hang your grantees out.
609
00:29:42,797 --> 00:29:47,097
You know, we, we had a, a teacher
training initiative that we're-
610
00:29:47,157 --> 00:29:49,677
there are case studies that'll
be on the website for this book.
611
00:29:49,727 --> 00:29:53,457
The book doesn't come out till July,
but once it's, it's out, the, the, um,
612
00:29:53,508 --> 00:29:56,067
those resources will be available, and
we wrote a case study on it saying like,
613
00:29:56,067 --> 00:29:57,867
"This did not work. It did not work."
614
00:29:57,908 --> 00:30:02,047
And you know, I was on, did a panel,
people who work in foundations,
615
00:30:02,137 --> 00:30:05,137
about this work- Mm-hmm … with
some of our grantees, our partners,
616
00:30:05,228 --> 00:30:07,378
and they're saying the good things
that they did with the money- Ah.
617
00:30:07,387 --> 00:30:08,087
… which are true.
618
00:30:08,397 --> 00:30:11,727
Like, there were, there are always, you
know, pockets of success within something.
619
00:30:11,728 --> 00:30:13,007
And I'm saying it was a failure.
620
00:30:13,118 --> 00:30:15,177
And oh my gosh.
621
00:30:15,188 --> 00:30:18,737
Mm. The discomfort- … of people in
the room who kept wanting to say, "But
622
00:30:18,737 --> 00:30:20,727
it's not a failure because…" And I
was like, "We're the one who did it.
623
00:30:20,727 --> 00:30:26,098
Like, we're okay saying it was a failure."
"We've told our partners this is how we
624
00:30:26,098 --> 00:30:31,797
feel." But it feels- Yeah … I mean,
we're a high empathy maybe field, but it
625
00:30:31,817 --> 00:30:36,947
feels like you're taking other people down
with us, and I think that's part- Yeah
626
00:30:36,957 --> 00:30:42,118
of, again, this like can we distinguish
us and our role from what our grantees do?
627
00:30:42,397 --> 00:30:46,027
Because the, we were saying
it's a failure based on what we
628
00:30:46,087 --> 00:30:47,887
intended it to be, what we did.
629
00:30:47,897 --> 00:30:53,127
And i- if you can make that distinction
about your own performance as a
630
00:30:53,127 --> 00:30:58,682
foundation, good or bad, then I think
it can be easier to- You know, put
631
00:30:58,682 --> 00:31:02,512
something out that other people can
learn from that doesn't feel like it's,
632
00:31:02,742 --> 00:31:06,682
you know, trashing, um, the work of
good organizations and good people.
633
00:31:06,772 --> 00:31:07,552
Yes, absolutely.
634
00:31:07,552 --> 00:31:08,622
That point is well taken.
635
00:31:08,742 --> 00:31:12,432
We used to have a worst grant contest at
the Hewlett Foundation, and it was the
636
00:31:12,432 --> 00:31:16,781
worst grant for which we were the most at
fault, and from which we learned the most.
637
00:31:17,461 --> 00:31:20,292
But Hewlett is famously good at
putting stuff out there, you know,
638
00:31:20,312 --> 00:31:23,242
like, willing to, and one of the
case studies in the book is also
639
00:31:23,242 --> 00:31:25,231
from a Hewlett program, you know?
640
00:31:25,232 --> 00:31:28,681
So, and when people are willing to put
stuff out there that's the non-success
641
00:31:28,681 --> 00:31:31,662
stories, I mean, it's such a contribution.
642
00:31:31,672 --> 00:31:34,481
But- I mean, we, we were trying to build
a culture of learning f- Yeah, yeah, yeah,
643
00:31:34,481 --> 00:31:36,051
yeah … from, from our own failures.
644
00:31:36,442 --> 00:31:40,432
Uh, so, you know, if your program
won the worst grant contest, you
645
00:31:40,432 --> 00:31:41,942
got dinner with the president.
646
00:31:42,332 --> 00:31:44,261
Um, but again- Yeah … this
was not about the grantees,
647
00:31:44,262 --> 00:31:45,871
this was about our own mistakes.
648
00:31:46,041 --> 00:31:49,421
All right, I, I wanna
move to another topic.
649
00:31:49,521 --> 00:31:49,771
Okay.
650
00:31:49,841 --> 00:31:53,811
Uh, there's this burning question in
my mind, and I'd love your take on it.
651
00:31:54,261 --> 00:31:58,821
W- what do you say to one of those
bazillionaires who is now sitting
652
00:31:58,821 --> 00:32:03,221
on tens or even hundreds of billions
of dollars, this is money they
653
00:32:03,222 --> 00:32:07,461
could not possibly spend in 100
lifetimes, maybe 1,000 lifetimes,
654
00:32:08,311 --> 00:32:10,051
about how to use that money for good?
655
00:32:10,071 --> 00:32:13,322
I mean, there's a ton of money, and
it feels to me like philanthropy
656
00:32:13,351 --> 00:32:18,012
may not necessarily always be the
vehicle to move that kind of money,
657
00:32:18,451 --> 00:32:23,271
or that traditional philanthropy as
we know it may not be the best way
658
00:32:23,271 --> 00:32:25,711
because there's just so much money.
659
00:32:25,811 --> 00:32:26,091
Yeah.
660
00:32:26,171 --> 00:32:28,871
What do you say to one of those
folks who just became a billionaire
661
00:32:28,872 --> 00:32:30,481
this week through one of those IPOs?
662
00:32:30,501 --> 00:32:32,401
How do they use that money properly?
663
00:32:32,861 --> 00:32:35,321
Well, first is really encouraging them
to use it to the benefit of others.
664
00:32:35,332 --> 00:32:35,352
Yeah.
665
00:32:35,372 --> 00:32:38,041
I think there's sometimes where we
critique philanthropy in a way that
666
00:32:38,041 --> 00:32:43,541
I worry is gonna make- … people
less willing- Yeah … to give.
667
00:32:43,671 --> 00:32:43,901
Right.
668
00:32:44,131 --> 00:32:46,941
And I do think, of all the things,
if, if we live in a society where
669
00:32:46,942 --> 00:32:48,471
people happen to get that rich, right?
670
00:32:48,481 --> 00:32:48,501
Yeah.
671
00:32:48,512 --> 00:32:54,371
Which we can have our critique about
that, but I, I do appreciate when
672
00:32:54,371 --> 00:32:55,641
folks are trying to use it for good.
673
00:32:55,692 --> 00:32:58,691
So I think there's an affirming
and encouraging of, of that.
674
00:32:58,972 --> 00:33:02,051
I think next thing is saying,
like, congratulations.
675
00:33:03,082 --> 00:33:03,262
Right.
676
00:33:03,271 --> 00:33:08,072
That you were so good or so lucky in
some ways to, to get this wealth, and
677
00:33:08,072 --> 00:33:11,532
I'll say, "If you want to actually
do good in the world, this is a
678
00:33:11,541 --> 00:33:17,132
different skill than all the skills
you used to build up that wealth.
679
00:33:17,241 --> 00:33:20,232
Some of them are gonna apply, but a
whole lot of them aren't, and if you
680
00:33:20,241 --> 00:33:25,486
don't actually shift your mindset-
You're not gonna have the success you
681
00:33:25,486 --> 00:33:26,936
hope, and then you may get discouraged.
682
00:33:27,176 --> 00:33:31,396
So let's work upfront to help you
understand some of the ways you're gonna
683
00:33:31,406 --> 00:33:34,966
have to bre- bend your brain coming in,
which is chapter one of the book, right?
684
00:33:34,966 --> 00:33:35,466
How do you think philanthropically?
685
00:33:36,136 --> 00:33:39,636
Just to say, like, if you're coming
in with a different kind of strategic
686
00:33:39,636 --> 00:33:42,175
orientation, you're gonna have
instincts that undermine yourself.
687
00:33:42,676 --> 00:33:48,275
And I think there's an appealing to, we-
let's help you be a great philanthropist.
688
00:33:48,285 --> 00:33:48,305
Yeah.
689
00:33:48,515 --> 00:33:50,095
I think you're trying to ask
a different question too,
690
00:33:50,095 --> 00:33:51,266
which is just about magnitude.
691
00:33:51,275 --> 00:33:51,295
Yeah.
692
00:33:51,476 --> 00:33:54,136
I actually think magnitude is absorbable.
693
00:33:54,996 --> 00:33:56,645
Um, I, I really do.
694
00:33:56,685 --> 00:34:02,575
I think that there is so much great
use for philanthropic capital that
695
00:34:03,275 --> 00:34:07,806
maybe isn't, doesn't look like the sexy
initiatives- Mm … that we sometimes
696
00:34:07,825 --> 00:34:12,205
like to do within philanthropy, but
is actually just like, no, we have
697
00:34:12,205 --> 00:34:13,745
a giant affordable housing problem.
698
00:34:14,145 --> 00:34:19,635
Like, so much money Yeah … could go into
thinking differently about construction
699
00:34:19,685 --> 00:34:21,715
and just plain building houses for people.
700
00:34:21,726 --> 00:34:21,756
Yeah.
701
00:34:21,906 --> 00:34:23,695
I mean, like, we can absorb money.
702
00:34:23,705 --> 00:34:23,735
Right.
703
00:34:24,035 --> 00:34:29,205
It's just not through every kind
of, you know, way of thinking
704
00:34:29,216 --> 00:34:30,776
about s- about philanthropy.
705
00:34:31,025 --> 00:34:34,575
And I also think we've tended to, you
know, through the, in the last 20 years
706
00:34:34,576 --> 00:34:38,785
with so much emphasis on impact and
strategy, we've made people feel like they
707
00:34:38,786 --> 00:34:40,796
have to do philanthropy that's complex.
708
00:34:40,826 --> 00:34:44,065
And I was like, real simple, we can
put that money to work- Mm-hmm … in
709
00:34:44,066 --> 00:34:49,196
really, really good ways if you
don't get too heady about it.
710
00:34:49,225 --> 00:34:52,135
Well, I would also tell
them to read your book.
711
00:34:52,405 --> 00:34:53,565
Oh, that's nice.
712
00:34:53,655 --> 00:34:57,445
Please Be Good at Philanthropy
from Disruption Books.
713
00:34:58,125 --> 00:35:01,615
Jen, I, I really, really
enjoyed this conversation.
714
00:35:01,646 --> 00:35:02,905
I really enjoyed the book.
715
00:35:02,935 --> 00:35:07,076
I think it is exactly the tonic
for the cold that we have.
716
00:35:07,195 --> 00:35:08,546
Oh, I'm so glad to hear it.
717
00:35:08,676 --> 00:35:09,515
I'm so glad.
718
00:35:09,615 --> 00:35:10,675
And best of luck with it.
719
00:35:10,705 --> 00:35:11,645
It's out in July.
720
00:35:11,655 --> 00:35:13,375
Thank you so much for talking with us.
721
00:35:13,505 --> 00:35:14,505
Thank you for having me.
722
00:35:14,505 --> 00:35:15,395
It was a real delight.
723
00:35:17,485 --> 00:35:18,305
And we're back.
724
00:35:18,305 --> 00:35:21,925
So I, I think we need to really
establish and underscore that when we
725
00:35:21,926 --> 00:35:23,606
say Bush, we're not talking president.
726
00:35:23,635 --> 00:35:23,895
Right.
727
00:35:24,365 --> 00:35:24,927
We're not talking beer.
728
00:35:24,927 --> 00:35:24,991
Right.
729
00:35:24,991 --> 00:35:25,055
Right?
730
00:35:25,055 --> 00:35:26,445
I love- And we're not talking beans.
731
00:35:29,754 --> 00:35:33,924
I just… And that's, you're right
in the heart of this Midwestern
732
00:35:34,004 --> 00:35:36,724
knowing sensibility, the humility.
733
00:35:36,804 --> 00:35:40,503
Uh, so let's just say thank you, Jen,
for bringing us, for bringing us there.
734
00:35:40,894 --> 00:35:43,964
We're talking about the Bushes
that come from having created 3M,
735
00:35:43,984 --> 00:35:48,633
which, which I think did- don't we
owe the, the Post-It Note to 3M?
736
00:35:48,983 --> 00:35:50,983
Isn't that, isn't that one of
the many things that we owe
737
00:35:50,983 --> 00:35:52,253
to 3M, is the Post-It Note?
738
00:35:52,614 --> 00:35:53,653
Ah, okay.
739
00:35:54,593 --> 00:35:54,623
Sure.
740
00:35:56,893 --> 00:35:59,394
I don't think people use Post-Its
the way they used to, but still.
741
00:35:59,704 --> 00:36:00,454
I know.
742
00:36:00,483 --> 00:36:01,103
It's funny.
743
00:36:01,184 --> 00:36:07,434
So Jen brings us to the heart of
this discussion, which is, hey,
744
00:36:07,434 --> 00:36:11,294
let's remember philanthropies are
created because of, guess what?
745
00:36:11,343 --> 00:36:12,113
Tax treatment.
746
00:36:12,553 --> 00:36:12,613
Right.
747
00:36:12,614 --> 00:36:17,283
These are actually public resources, so
how about let's have some conversation
748
00:36:17,283 --> 00:36:22,254
about how they demonstrate and document
their value, their public good value.
749
00:36:22,294 --> 00:36:26,013
And th- you had mentioned the
Midwestern part of this to get started.
750
00:36:26,294 --> 00:36:30,523
This is such a nuanced piece to
kinda weave through and thread.
751
00:36:30,913 --> 00:36:33,773
I almost feel like it has to come
from a Midwestern perspective and
752
00:36:33,774 --> 00:36:37,483
sensibility because there's so much to
unpack here, and yet there's a common
753
00:36:37,483 --> 00:36:41,273
sense and very enormously important
part of this was just like, yeah, these
754
00:36:41,274 --> 00:36:45,983
are, these foundations are stacks of
money that are created through, you
755
00:36:45,983 --> 00:36:49,223
know, public fiat, and guess what?
756
00:36:49,343 --> 00:36:51,434
That means they have to
demonstrate public value.
757
00:36:51,483 --> 00:36:52,453
How do you do that?
758
00:36:52,583 --> 00:36:55,294
And it's a very salient question
I feel like Jen is bringing
759
00:36:55,294 --> 00:36:56,414
for, bringing to all of us.
760
00:36:56,793 --> 00:37:00,333
Right, 'cause, you know, if you have
some New York schmuck yelling about
761
00:37:00,354 --> 00:37:02,993
philanthropy- … who's gonna listen?
762
00:37:04,654 --> 00:37:08,934
And, and isn't this conversation just a
r- it's, it's like a call and response
763
00:37:08,944 --> 00:37:10,434
with the conversation with Glenn.
764
00:37:10,604 --> 00:37:10,634
Yes.
765
00:37:10,654 --> 00:37:14,284
And of course, the conversation with
Alicia- Mm … about this disconnect
766
00:37:14,284 --> 00:37:16,034
between foundations and their grantees.
767
00:37:16,333 --> 00:37:16,613
Yeah.
768
00:37:16,674 --> 00:37:21,343
And we see, I would say, the
antidote to that disconnect is
769
00:37:21,363 --> 00:37:24,794
what Jen is doing at the Bush
Foundation, and frankly, her book.
770
00:37:25,304 --> 00:37:29,523
Mm. If you, if you're at a foundation
and you're seeing that your grantees feel
771
00:37:29,523 --> 00:37:34,293
like you're out of touch, that you don't
understand what they're going through,
772
00:37:34,494 --> 00:37:38,053
all that kind of stuff, pick up a copy
of Please Be Good at Philanthropy- Yeah
773
00:37:38,053 --> 00:37:40,043
and read it cover to cover,
and when you're done reading it
774
00:37:40,043 --> 00:37:41,443
cover to cover, read it again.
775
00:37:41,873 --> 00:37:42,143
Yeah.
776
00:37:42,163 --> 00:37:47,204
Because in here are the ways that you
can learn about how to connect with your
777
00:37:47,204 --> 00:37:51,093
grantees, how to be more responsible,
how to understand when things are working
778
00:37:51,093 --> 00:37:54,624
and when they're not, how to share
information about when they're not.
779
00:37:54,814 --> 00:37:57,353
Because I've said this a million
times on this show, you know, a
780
00:37:57,353 --> 00:38:01,854
road closed sign is one of the most
important signs in transportation.
781
00:38:03,474 --> 00:38:07,473
And, "Don't make the same mistakes
we did" could be one of the most
782
00:38:07,474 --> 00:38:09,964
important messages in philanthropy.
783
00:38:09,964 --> 00:38:10,103
Mm-hmm.
784
00:38:10,103 --> 00:38:14,383
And that is not a message that foundations
tend to send, and she's absolutely
785
00:38:14,383 --> 00:38:16,304
encouraging that, among other things.
786
00:38:16,484 --> 00:38:21,063
So yes, it probably takes a
Midwesterner to be nice about it.
787
00:38:21,584 --> 00:38:28,364
But given this time right now, if
philanthropy is going to continue
788
00:38:28,364 --> 00:38:32,803
to be relevant, and if it's going
to cond- continue to, I don't know,
789
00:38:33,203 --> 00:38:37,913
actually accomplish things, the
prescriptions in this book are essential.
790
00:38:38,444 --> 00:38:38,874
Yeah.
791
00:38:39,253 --> 00:38:42,563
Well, and you know, she, she… We
always talk about origin story, and
792
00:38:42,563 --> 00:38:48,344
I love that Jen brings kind of this
c- consultant's instinct for what are
793
00:38:48,344 --> 00:38:52,314
we trying to do with performance and
can bring into that foundation leader
794
00:38:52,314 --> 00:38:57,134
sensibility about humility and recognizing
what's so difficult to measure.
795
00:38:57,333 --> 00:38:59,973
But can we talk for just a
second, though, about how the
796
00:38:59,984 --> 00:39:00,924
Bush Foundation is organized?
797
00:39:00,964 --> 00:39:02,723
'Cause I think this is so
interesting, too, and I feel like
798
00:39:02,723 --> 00:39:07,823
this perspective certainly helps
inform Jen's thinking here, is that
799
00:39:08,574 --> 00:39:12,703
the Bush Foundation is actually
not organized around single issues.
800
00:39:13,183 --> 00:39:17,823
It's organized around this notion of
expanding problem-solving capacity.
801
00:39:17,833 --> 00:39:22,103
And, and this whole conversation around
evaluation and what, what impact, what
802
00:39:22,103 --> 00:39:25,583
benefit are we creating, I feel like it
shows up in stark relief against that
803
00:39:25,583 --> 00:39:28,223
framework, too, because the f- this
foundation is saying, you know… And
804
00:39:28,223 --> 00:39:30,723
actually I'm curious to get your take on
this, because this foundation is saying,
805
00:39:30,723 --> 00:39:33,833
"We're not coming to the field telling
you which problems you should care about."
806
00:39:33,863 --> 00:39:34,163
Right.
807
00:39:34,554 --> 00:39:38,163
"And we're not gonna resource you to
solve the problems that our strategic
808
00:39:38,173 --> 00:39:42,284
philanthropy has told you are necessary
to solve." And actually, that's really
809
00:39:42,284 --> 00:39:47,353
interesting because I think some of our
core changes and movements of our time
810
00:39:47,353 --> 00:39:51,133
have kind of been revealed by foundations
actually working at that level.
811
00:39:51,413 --> 00:39:55,383
But this is a perspective that says, "No,
actually, we need to engage in people,
812
00:39:55,393 --> 00:39:57,134
organizations, communities, regions.
813
00:39:57,564 --> 00:40:01,854
Let's hear from them what problems
they're trying to solve, and then let's
814
00:40:01,854 --> 00:40:05,673
actually provide resources that help
folks solve problems that make their
815
00:40:05,673 --> 00:40:10,223
communities better, thrive, et cetera."
That, that to me just feels like it's a
816
00:40:10,223 --> 00:40:13,253
really interesting sensibility in terms
of this whole conversation about trying
817
00:40:13,253 --> 00:40:16,533
to understand what impact we're having
and, and how do we characterize that.
818
00:40:16,763 --> 00:40:17,583
Yeah, I totally agree.
819
00:40:17,774 --> 00:40:23,003
Uh, another way of thinking about
it is a needs meeting orientation.
820
00:40:23,003 --> 00:40:23,403
Hmm.
821
00:40:23,403 --> 00:40:23,673
Hmm.
822
00:40:23,673 --> 00:40:26,173
Uh, you go out, you go out to the
community and you find out what
823
00:40:26,173 --> 00:40:30,163
people need, and then you do your
best to help them achieve that.
824
00:40:30,683 --> 00:40:36,144
And you're right, most foundations
are set up in terms of issue areas.
825
00:40:36,193 --> 00:40:39,783
We do environment, we do democracy,
we do this, that or the other.
826
00:40:39,933 --> 00:40:45,904
Which, if you ask me, is often
just as useful for the foundation
827
00:40:45,904 --> 00:40:47,223
in being able to say no.
828
00:40:47,234 --> 00:40:47,254
Yeah.
829
00:40:47,683 --> 00:40:49,933
Because someone will come
to them with a great idea.
830
00:40:49,943 --> 00:40:49,973
Mm-hmm.
831
00:40:50,253 --> 00:40:53,043
And they'll say, "Nah, we don't really
fund that. That's- Yeah … that's out
832
00:40:53,043 --> 00:40:55,113
of our guidelines," that kind of thing.
833
00:40:55,314 --> 00:41:00,236
So it is a, it's a no tool,
not necessarily a yes tool.
834
00:41:00,406 --> 00:41:04,746
And so if you go out into the community
and say, "What do you need? What are you
835
00:41:04,746 --> 00:41:08,215
dealing with? What are the challenges
that you have, and how can we in one
836
00:41:08,216 --> 00:41:11,435
way or the other support you in being
able to overcome those challenges?"
837
00:41:11,606 --> 00:41:13,176
That is a totally different mindset.
838
00:41:13,476 --> 00:41:16,245
And I agree, not many
foundations do it that way.
839
00:41:16,246 --> 00:41:19,876
The Irvine Foundation, it would set
up these initiatives that w- were
840
00:41:19,876 --> 00:41:24,576
designed to address some kind of
challenge that were different from the
841
00:41:24,576 --> 00:41:27,666
old program s- way of doing things.
842
00:41:27,666 --> 00:41:29,255
And so that's a variation on that.
843
00:41:29,806 --> 00:41:32,196
I think it's really interesting,
and I think that it's something,
844
00:41:32,355 --> 00:41:36,316
even a foundation that does have
programs, they could carve off some
845
00:41:36,346 --> 00:41:40,156
part of their grant-making and say,
"Let's just meet people's needs.
846
00:41:40,225 --> 00:41:43,936
Let's figure out what some important
need is, and then just serve them-
847
00:41:44,355 --> 00:41:48,186
Yeah … ins- instead of deciding from
on high that this is a problem and
848
00:41:48,195 --> 00:41:49,745
we're gonna be the ones who solve it.
849
00:41:50,035 --> 00:41:51,865
And there's one more thing
about problem-solving.
850
00:41:52,135 --> 00:41:55,625
I've said in the past that I, it,
in a sense it sets the foundation
851
00:41:55,635 --> 00:42:00,385
up as the hero, and I don't think
that's how Jen is referring to
852
00:42:00,385 --> 00:42:02,365
problem-solving in this context.
853
00:42:02,375 --> 00:42:06,375
Mm. Like I say, I think it's really
more like im- like meeting folks'
854
00:42:06,375 --> 00:42:10,735
needs, and needs that are articulated
by people in the community who are
855
00:42:10,735 --> 00:42:14,845
dealing with whatever challenges they're
dealing with or seeing opportunities
856
00:42:15,116 --> 00:42:18,845
that might present themselves, and
how the foundation can support them
857
00:42:18,845 --> 00:42:21,325
in achieving some kind of aspiration.
858
00:42:21,576 --> 00:42:22,126
Yeah.
859
00:42:22,466 --> 00:42:23,965
And, and this is what we
love about this work, right?
860
00:42:23,966 --> 00:42:28,595
Because Jen is having this conversation
from sitting within philanthropy and
861
00:42:28,595 --> 00:42:32,345
doing this high-impact work and thinking
about it in new and different ways.
862
00:42:32,885 --> 00:42:37,425
So one of the really kind of poignant
questions that comes up for me around
863
00:42:37,425 --> 00:42:43,724
this is- Well, i-i-if you have this
foundation and you can operate at such a
864
00:42:43,724 --> 00:42:49,183
high degree of private discretion, what
competency do you need to demonstrate?
865
00:42:49,183 --> 00:42:49,513
Yeah.
866
00:42:49,893 --> 00:42:52,773
You know, honestly, this is the
professionalism plus the nice, because
867
00:42:52,773 --> 00:42:56,423
that is such a- Yep … powerful
question, and there's no way that I
868
00:42:56,423 --> 00:42:58,713
know how to ask that question without
coming across as, like, just a,
869
00:42:58,714 --> 00:42:59,883
"Wait, what? Who are you?" You know?
870
00:42:59,903 --> 00:43:02,334
Who… But, but I think if
you're an expert, you're sitting
871
00:43:02,334 --> 00:43:03,144
in the field, you've got…
872
00:43:03,144 --> 00:43:05,413
You understand the nuances of
the way the agenda is, you can
873
00:43:05,423 --> 00:43:07,753
actually put this question forward.
874
00:43:07,753 --> 00:43:09,674
It's like, how competent do we need to be?
875
00:43:09,674 --> 00:43:13,944
And then what do we need to
look at to help us understand
876
00:43:14,344 --> 00:43:15,793
what that competency looks like?
877
00:43:15,793 --> 00:43:18,393
And then I would even go one step further,
which is, like, we do have a field that
878
00:43:18,394 --> 00:43:21,634
has a lot of, like, grantee re- perception
reports, and we get grantee feedback.
879
00:43:21,634 --> 00:43:26,373
But, but whether or not that feedback is
landing and what changes it's creating, we
880
00:43:26,374 --> 00:43:28,293
often don't know that part so much, right?
881
00:43:28,293 --> 00:43:30,994
We-- Maybe we get the
blog post on the website.
882
00:43:31,083 --> 00:43:34,103
But, but really, you know, what's actually
affecting the DNA for how this works.
883
00:43:34,103 --> 00:43:36,804
So, so to me, that's kind of
the hard-edged question that's
884
00:43:36,804 --> 00:43:39,274
sitting under here is, like,
well, what, what do we owe people?
885
00:43:39,284 --> 00:43:42,703
What's the, what's the transaction we
should be, you know, saying, "Hey, this
886
00:43:42,703 --> 00:43:45,783
is what we're signing up for," when we're
talking about philanthropy at scale?
887
00:43:46,474 --> 00:43:46,713
All right.
888
00:43:46,714 --> 00:43:48,393
Well, there's a lot in there to unpack.
889
00:43:48,394 --> 00:43:50,993
One of the things is, and I think it's
in the book, almost positive it's in
890
00:43:50,993 --> 00:43:55,553
the book, which is that there is no kind
of graduate level course, a degree in
891
00:43:55,553 --> 00:44:01,873
philanthropy that kind of gives you a leg
up in helping you understand how to do it.
892
00:44:01,883 --> 00:44:01,903
Yeah.
893
00:44:02,114 --> 00:44:04,223
So you go get an MBA and
you work in business.
894
00:44:04,434 --> 00:44:07,723
You go get a PhD and you work in academia.
895
00:44:07,964 --> 00:44:11,763
And, and so on the one hand, it's like,
oh my God, really, do we need another-
896
00:44:12,622 --> 00:44:15,732
industrial, whatever, educational
industrial complex around philanthropy?
897
00:44:15,922 --> 00:44:19,551
The answer is maybe, because there
are all sorts of things that you could
898
00:44:19,551 --> 00:44:23,321
learn that could make you better at
philanthropy that you learn before
899
00:44:23,571 --> 00:44:25,222
you go into the foundation world- Mm
900
00:44:25,392 --> 00:44:29,091
instead of while you're
experimenting with people's lives.
901
00:44:29,192 --> 00:44:31,402
Okay, so that's the education business.
902
00:44:31,411 --> 00:44:31,431
Yeah.
903
00:44:31,581 --> 00:44:34,382
And the other thing that she talks
about is that there's an amazing number
904
00:44:34,382 --> 00:44:38,321
of presidents of foundations that have
never worked in a foundation before.
905
00:44:38,331 --> 00:44:42,341
Mm. So we don't hire from within
and work your way up as nearly
906
00:44:42,341 --> 00:44:43,892
as much as people do- Yeah
907
00:44:43,892 --> 00:44:45,131
in, in other places.
908
00:44:45,131 --> 00:44:48,782
And some rather big foundations right
now have presidents who have never worked
909
00:44:48,782 --> 00:44:52,191
at a foundation, and they come in and
they go, "Ooh, hoo, hoo, this is gonna
910
00:44:52,192 --> 00:44:55,861
be easy because I'm really smart." And
it doesn't turn out to be that way.
911
00:44:55,991 --> 00:44:58,441
It turns out to be so much more
complicated than you think.
912
00:44:58,482 --> 00:45:03,891
Mm. And it i- it is true, to be
responsible, to be responsive, to be able
913
00:45:03,892 --> 00:45:08,412
to listen to the things that people aren't
gonna tell you, I mean, it's, it's hard.
914
00:45:08,421 --> 00:45:08,441
Yeah.
915
00:45:08,602 --> 00:45:11,671
And you have to have so much humility
when you go into a foundation 'cause
916
00:45:11,671 --> 00:45:13,481
people just tell you you're fabulous.
917
00:45:13,651 --> 00:45:13,771
Yeah.
918
00:45:13,821 --> 00:45:16,641
And it's lovely to hear
it, but it's not true.
919
00:45:16,741 --> 00:45:17,971
You're not fabulous.
920
00:45:18,171 --> 00:45:18,872
You're normal.
921
00:45:18,872 --> 00:45:19,891
You're like you always were.
922
00:45:19,891 --> 00:45:19,932
Yeah, yeah.
923
00:45:20,321 --> 00:45:22,721
And so nobody really trains
you for that sort of stuff.
924
00:45:23,061 --> 00:45:26,651
We, we have kind of degraded in
philanthropy over these years, and now
925
00:45:26,651 --> 00:45:30,152
all of a sudden grantees are saying,
"Our founders don't understand us.
926
00:45:30,171 --> 00:45:35,831
Whoa." "That's surprising." Well,
this is where Jen brings this
927
00:45:35,831 --> 00:45:37,981
incredible range of experience.
928
00:45:37,982 --> 00:45:42,731
And by the way, in terms of that
class, Jen is actually teaching a
929
00:45:42,732 --> 00:45:45,171
philanthropy 101- I know … class
for the Massachusetts Foundation-
930
00:45:45,291 --> 00:45:47,361
Yeah … which is exactly what
we need right- There we go.
931
00:45:47,372 --> 00:45:48,101
We need… That's right.
932
00:45:48,101 --> 00:45:50,482
We need Jen Ford Reedy at the
front of the room teaching.
933
00:45:50,491 --> 00:45:55,241
And so this is the other piece that is
so great here, is that Jen's not coming
934
00:45:55,241 --> 00:45:58,561
forward saying, "Hey, we need some big
licensing board," or, "Let's create some
935
00:45:58,561 --> 00:46:00,601
new bureaucratic giant compliance regime."
936
00:46:00,961 --> 00:46:04,801
She's actually saying, in the absence
of these external constraints, how
937
00:46:04,801 --> 00:46:06,182
about the internal discipline part?
938
00:46:06,361 --> 00:46:08,562
Let's talk about a willingness
to receive feedback.
939
00:46:08,562 --> 00:46:10,022
Let's talk about the humility.
940
00:46:10,071 --> 00:46:10,161
Yeah.
941
00:46:10,192 --> 00:46:10,341
Right?
942
00:46:10,341 --> 00:46:11,541
Let's talk about a willing to learn.
943
00:46:11,551 --> 00:46:13,981
Let's talk about actually
listening to communities.
944
00:46:14,011 --> 00:46:16,232
And, and again, I keep going
back to community is such a
945
00:46:16,241 --> 00:46:18,441
really interesting word because
what does that word even mean?
946
00:46:18,531 --> 00:46:21,092
Like, you know, where do we find the
communities that we're listening to?
947
00:46:21,092 --> 00:46:22,551
What do we mean for evaluation?
948
00:46:22,551 --> 00:46:24,581
And then, and then how
do we admit failure?
949
00:46:24,581 --> 00:46:29,031
And, and I think, you know, for me,
the reason why I think messengers and
950
00:46:29,032 --> 00:46:32,021
workers and practitioners and experts
like Jen are so important is that I
951
00:46:32,021 --> 00:46:36,681
also feel like there's just a crucial
kind of care and feeding of the field
952
00:46:36,681 --> 00:46:38,061
that's going on here because- Mm-hmm
953
00:46:38,111 --> 00:46:41,302
because we don't have these
kind of external mechanisms
954
00:46:41,302 --> 00:46:42,381
that are kinda pushing on us.
955
00:46:42,842 --> 00:46:47,251
This changes as a result of foundations
looking deep inside and saying, "This is
956
00:46:47,251 --> 00:46:51,721
how we're gonna put this into practice
within our particular institution." And
957
00:46:51,741 --> 00:46:55,491
at least in my experience, that really
requires somebody who can patiently,
958
00:46:55,842 --> 00:47:01,181
kindly, with humility, but also with
expert clarity, walk people through the
959
00:47:01,181 --> 00:47:03,601
process, and I feel like that's what
we're getting here in terms of what
960
00:47:03,601 --> 00:47:04,991
Jen's bringing forward with her book.
961
00:47:05,504 --> 00:47:06,324
Ab- absolutely.
962
00:47:06,544 --> 00:47:10,024
And these are the kinds of tools that
we need more of, no question about it.
963
00:47:10,804 --> 00:47:14,604
There, there are some good books on
philanthropy, but not nearly enough.
964
00:47:14,984 --> 00:47:21,014
And like I said, this is a kind of a soup
to nuts great primer on- Yeah … how to
965
00:47:21,024 --> 00:47:25,164
think about philanthropy, and I'm so glad,
I'm so glad that s- that she wrote it.
966
00:47:25,164 --> 00:47:29,793
And like I said, it is a counterpoint
to Glenn Galich's book Control.
967
00:47:29,804 --> 00:47:29,824
Yeah.
968
00:47:29,824 --> 00:47:34,403
In, in many ways they're saying much
of the same thing, but attacking
969
00:47:34,403 --> 00:47:38,524
it or at, going at it from a
slightly different perspective,
970
00:47:38,544 --> 00:47:39,943
and I think that's really valuable.
971
00:47:40,263 --> 00:47:40,633
Yeah.
972
00:47:40,814 --> 00:47:41,114
Yeah.
973
00:47:41,603 --> 00:47:45,633
Well, let's, let's say a major thank
you to Jen for coming on Let's Hear
974
00:47:45,634 --> 00:47:47,564
It, giving us this book, you know.
975
00:47:47,864 --> 00:47:52,273
I, I, this, this sensibility, just
'cause we have a checkbook, it doesn't…
976
00:47:52,314 --> 00:47:55,093
We, we might, that make us feel wise
if we've got the checkbook, but it
977
00:47:55,093 --> 00:47:57,333
actually doesn't make us wise, right?
978
00:47:57,333 --> 00:47:57,364
Right.
979
00:47:57,364 --> 00:47:59,123
She's saying if we want the
privilege of doing this work, we
980
00:47:59,123 --> 00:48:02,484
should be doing enough to be good
at, at it to deserve the privilege.
981
00:48:02,484 --> 00:48:08,554
And again, that's, man, that, that, that's
so powerful, meaningful, poignant, timely.
982
00:48:09,103 --> 00:48:14,364
And honestly, Eric, like in this era,
to hear such seminal leaders coming
983
00:48:14,364 --> 00:48:17,563
forward with this kind of balance
of discipline and humility, isn't
984
00:48:17,564 --> 00:48:18,903
it just kinda good for the soul?
985
00:48:19,104 --> 00:48:19,293
You know what I mean?
986
00:48:19,384 --> 00:48:21,583
Isn't it just kinda good to know that
we have leadership like this out there?
987
00:48:21,583 --> 00:48:21,853
I don't know.
988
00:48:21,863 --> 00:48:23,074
It was… I, I don't know.
989
00:48:23,204 --> 00:48:24,213
I, I, it's… I love it.
990
00:48:24,354 --> 00:48:24,683
I love it.
991
00:48:24,683 --> 00:48:26,783
It's good for my teeny
tiny soul, that's for sure.
992
00:48:29,034 --> 00:48:29,623
That's great.
993
00:48:30,053 --> 00:48:32,384
Well, please go find the book.
994
00:48:32,443 --> 00:48:37,104
So this is Jen Ford Reedy from the Bush
Foundation, and the book is… And,
995
00:48:37,104 --> 00:48:40,003
and, and give me the title of the book
again, 'cause I, I just, I love this.
996
00:48:40,043 --> 00:48:43,863
Please Be Good at Philanthropy is
just one of my favorite all-time
997
00:48:43,913 --> 00:48:45,164
titles for a book- Yes … ever.
998
00:48:45,164 --> 00:48:49,504
And, and my other favorite thing is that
it is published by Disruption Books.
999
00:48:49,623 --> 00:48:50,803
Oh, there you go.
1000
00:48:51,123 --> 00:48:52,014
That's, that's great.
1001
00:48:52,014 --> 00:48:55,207
So please go check out Please
Be Good at Philanthropy.
1002
00:48:55,207 --> 00:48:57,623
And I guess, you know, Eric, we
should be, we'll take this on too.
1003
00:48:57,623 --> 00:48:59,684
We're gonna try to be
good at podcasting, right?
1004
00:48:59,723 --> 00:49:01,393
We're, we're, we're gonna
please be good at podcasting.
1005
00:49:01,393 --> 00:49:02,383
You're doing great with it.
1006
00:49:02,383 --> 00:49:02,841
I, I mean not so much.
1007
00:49:02,841 --> 00:49:03,773
Eric, it's a little late for that.
1008
00:49:03,853 --> 00:49:04,233
I know.
1009
00:49:04,873 --> 00:49:07,523
It's so much, it's so- If we
were gonna be good at podcasting,
1010
00:49:07,533 --> 00:49:08,573
we'd have been good by now.
1011
00:49:08,823 --> 00:49:09,533
Yeah, I know.
1012
00:49:09,533 --> 00:49:10,054
It's true.
1013
00:49:10,054 --> 00:49:10,453
True.
1014
00:49:10,503 --> 00:49:13,333
Well, Jen Ford Reedy, president of
the Bush Foundation, thank you so
1015
00:49:13,333 --> 00:49:14,294
much for coming on Let's Hear It.
1016
00:49:14,294 --> 00:49:16,803
Thank you for sharing with us all
of your work and your insights.
1017
00:49:16,803 --> 00:49:19,623
And please go out and find the book
Please Be Good at Philanthropy.
1018
00:49:19,623 --> 00:49:20,133
There you go.
1019
00:49:20,143 --> 00:49:21,156
And we will, we will see you
next time on Let's Hear It.
1020
00:49:21,156 --> 00:49:23,063
Read it, and then be good at philanthropy.
1021
00:49:23,463 --> 00:49:24,643
Read it and be good at philanthropy.
1022
00:49:24,713 --> 00:49:25,403
We'll see you next time.
1023
00:49:25,603 --> 00:49:25,903
Bye.
1024
00:49:28,384 --> 00:49:29,163
Okay, everybody.
1025
00:49:29,163 --> 00:49:30,323
That's it for this episode.
1026
00:49:30,774 --> 00:49:33,203
Please let us know if you have any
thoughts about what you heard today
1027
00:49:33,274 --> 00:49:36,794
or people we should have on this show,
and that definitely includes yourself.
1028
00:49:37,323 --> 00:49:40,814
And we'd like to thank John
Allee, the tuneful and inspiring
1029
00:49:40,814 --> 00:49:42,033
composer of our theme music.
1030
00:49:42,393 --> 00:49:44,993
Our sponsor, the Lumina Foundation.
1031
00:49:44,993 --> 00:49:49,123
And please check out Lumina's
terrific podcast, Today's Students,
1032
00:49:49,163 --> 00:49:52,733
Tomorrow's Talent, and you can
find that at luminafoundation.org.
1033
00:49:52,823 --> 00:49:55,413
We certainly thank today's guest
and, of course, all of you.
1034
00:49:55,533 --> 00:49:58,163
And most importantly,
thank you, Mr. Brown.
1035
00:49:58,263 --> 00:49:59,373
Oh, no, no, no, no.
1036
00:49:59,703 --> 00:50:01,093
Thank you, Mr. Brown.
1037
00:50:01,314 --> 00:50:01,984
Okay, everybody.
1038
00:50:02,084 --> 00:50:02,633
Till next time
