WEBVTT
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Before we start, a quick note that this podcast is not a substitute for professional mental health care.
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If you need support, consider reaching out to a licensed professional.
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This podcast can include strong language and difficult topics.
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Pause if you need to.
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Let's get into it.
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Shep is a queer relationship and sexuality coach and a therapist in training with a focus on non-conventional relationship structures and kink.
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Coming to this work from a background as a sustainability strategist, they bring an ecological lens to the workshops they lead, thinking about relationships as living systems shaped by context, care, and interdependence.
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Outside of their work, Shep finds their greatest joys out in nature, where a lot of that framework first took root.
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Shep, I'm looking forward to exploring how these perspectives shape the way you think about connection, identity, and what we tell ourselves we should want.
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Welcome to I Feel Like I Should.
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Awesome.
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Thank you so much for having me.
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It's great to be here.
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Yeah, thank you.
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So Ivan, starting off with an icebreaker, and if that works for you, are you ready to jump in?
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Yeah, let's do it.
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Okay, cool.
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So, what is a song you secretly love?
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Something that always lifts your mood, even if you wouldn't admit it to anyone.
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Ooh, I don't know about a song that I wouldn't admit to anyone, because I think I really try and live my life in terms of as being radically authentic as possible.
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But there are definitely songs that I might feel like somebody might judge me for, or like a certain group of my friends or people that I interact with.
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I would say, like, there this is like a whole collection of music.
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I love this.
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Like my like slutty or angry lesbian, like sapphic or queer artists, and it's very pop oriented, which I don't I never used to identify as somebody who listened to pop.
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And I think like often was like, oh, this is somewhat embarrassing.
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Reality is, is over the last few years, I've had so much fun listening to this genre, and it really lifts my spirits.
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So one of the songs in that is F you in My Head, and it's by Cloudy June, and it's like really raunchy and really fun.
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And there's like this whole playlist, the sort of music that I love to listen to now.
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Like if I just need a pick-me-up or if I'm at the gym and I like wamp me up eat energy.
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And I used to mostly listen to EDM.
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Oh, okay.
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Right on.
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I like that you're kind of breaking down to the pop side because there's a lot there.
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Um and there's a reason why it's pie music and why people l like why a lot of people listen to it, right?
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Totally.
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Um, awesome.
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So we're gonna put that one on the playlist that we're building, which is a lot of fun.
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So kind of like going backwards in time, is there a song you felt like you should have loved?
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Um, maybe because everyone else did when you were growing up or you wanted to fit in, but privately it didn't really resonate with you?
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Yeah.
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So I think like the thing that stands out to me the most in that is less a specific song, but more like a genre and era, which I think was like some of rap and hip hop at large, but especially I remember like, and this is as I got a little bit older, like dating people who are like, oh my gosh, like the original like rap and hip-hop artists are so cool, and you have to listen to it.
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And me being like, wow, I think I get this even less.
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Um, because I think from a sound perspective, like it as rap and hip-hop has evolved, it's gotten more like popified.
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And originally there was like kind of no pop influence.
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And so I think it was like very different that than the like popular music I had been bred on.
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And on top of that, like the content and the story in that sort of music was something like I didn't relate to as somebody like socializes a woman growing up in the city.
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And like I didn't really have at that age, especially like an appreciation for the historical and cultural context that bred that genre of music.
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At that same time in your life, like thinking about outside of that genre, like the culture around you, what were other shoulds you felt like growing up?
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Yeah, I think a lot of the shoulds I felt were like driven by a need to be liked and to be popular and accepted.
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Um, it's really interesting for me in particular as a genderqueer person who, as the older I've gotten, the more I've come into my trans identity.
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And when I was younger, like I felt such a deep need to be very girly and to fit in in that way.
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And there was a part of that that was authentic.
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Like I was really into fashion.
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I still love fashion and style and clothing and the way that it can help you express your identity.
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But at that age, it was like, how do I do my makeup and my hair and wear heels and skirts and look as sexy as possible?
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And I think a lot of that was about this like need to be liked.
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Um and going towards what would achieve that with my peers rather than what felt the most authentic to me.
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Yeah.
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Can you recall like a moment um or a person who made those shoulds like feel especially real for you?
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Um, this is kind of a weird anecdote, but I think it was like maybe one of the first times I felt really aware of it.
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I went to Catholic school for two years, where like a lot of that pressure felt very material.
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And when I was in Driver's Ed, it was like a mashup of students from like all over town.
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And I became really close friends with somebody who I ended up being friends with all through high school who went to the one of the other public schools in town.
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And I remember him being like in kind of like a loving, joking way, like, you look like one of the girls out of Mean Girls.
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And I just remember being like, oh my God, that's so wild, but it's true because like the culture at the Catholic school that I went to, it was like perfectly manicured, juicy hoodies and skinny jeans, and heels and push-up bras.
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And yeah, like I looked kind of like a caricature.
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And then I think that was right around the time I ended up transferring back to my local public school and like my style and my identity like really started to shift.
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And part of it was that image wasn't as popular in the public schools, but it also like I think I was coming to an age where I started to feel more comfortable like doing what I wanted and caring moderately less about what people thought.
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Yeah, yeah.
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But still at that time, like, you know, it sounds like there was an influence of that pop culture in in and around you in your space.
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Totally.
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Yeah, like that movie, Meme Girls, was like so popular, you know.
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It was like it still is, I think, right?
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They're making a new one, like a TV show or something.
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Are they really?
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Yeah.
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That makes me feel kind of old.
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And like I'm wondering, like, on top of that, like you said, like you shifted from like one school to another school, and like how those pressures that you felt at that time like shifted or changed as time has passed.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I mean, I think that like shifting schools like changed what was cool, and so allowed me to try different things on in terms of like what was even still normative.
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But I think also, as I mentioned, like coincided with a the beginning of like learning to be more authentic.
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And I think that that's something that I like struggled with a long time was the duality between like authenticity and the desire to conform or be liked.
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And I noticed that in college, and I don't think it was really until like late college that I really got to this point where I was like, okay, who am I truly?
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And how do I deconstruct that?
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And I think part of that is like I originally went to art school.
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Like I got into state sustainability by way of working in the fashion industry.
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And so talk about a field that like has a lot of shoulds and a lot of like deeply embedded ideas about like how you should look and what was cool.
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And I found that so much of being a successful designer was about your persona and how you looked and how cool you were, not how creative or talented you were.
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So there was a lot of pressure for that.
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But I think that I had started on this path of being more authentic.
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Like I was in art school, I was surrounded by people who were super creative, really hip looking.
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And I would bike to school every day in the rain in London.
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And I would like pack something cute in my bag, but I had this kind of like before it was even a thing, like Gorb core style, because there was like a practicality that I like built into what I wore.
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And that was like part of me trying to be authentic to who I was and am, rather than like completely conforming.
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Yeah.
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And in that system that you were in, like in fashion school, what were the other influences you were feeling like internally and externally that, like you said, were pushing you to be more authentic?
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I think one of the best things about working as a creative or like developing yourself as a creative as a student is authenticity is a part of it and like finding your creative spark.
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And that was what actually really perplexed me was the intensity of that duality that, like, on one hand, you're encouraged to and supposed to find your authentic self, and that's where your creativity should come from.
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And yet at the same time, you're kind of being directly and indirectly told, oh, that's not cool.
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So you shouldn't do that.
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You shouldn't be that way.
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And like, I think at that point, I just had gotten to a place in my life where I was like, well, I don't want to not be authentic.
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Yeah.
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Um, but I think that like so much of it, like in the first year I went to fashion school and then I dropped out and decided I wanted to do sustainability work.
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Um, like a lot of it is influenced by what the main designers are doing.
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The school is trying to produce the next most famous designer.
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And like I went to school with folks like Harris Reed, who is now like one of the top young designers in the world.
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And like you kind of watched people like that who had a very strong persona, who worked as a model, who came from wealth, and like that was kind of the world you were in.
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And those were the factors like influencing like what was cool.
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Yeah.
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In those spaces, like I find this really interesting.
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People are trying to find themselves, right, be authentic, but it sounds like there's a lot of pressure, like you said, to be the next best thing.
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And often those pressures don't come from internal forces, they come from external forces, right?
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Whether it's economic or societal expectations or however you're supposed to like perform in that space.
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So, how does someone become authentic in a space that wants you to become authentic, but in a weird way wants you to like go with the main flow?
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Yeah.
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I think it requires like developing like a sense of not completely caring and wanting your authenticity more than you want success or to be cool or to be liked.
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Um, but I think a lot of it is that like the people who were most successful were the ones that their authentic self matched what was cool, you know, because there wasn't a ton of space.
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And I saw that like I was like deep in my like queer identity journey at the time.
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A lot of what I was interested in in fashion was like gender blended style and like men's suiting and tailoring for women.
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Um and that was really cool.
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Like I watched that be received well.
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And then all the energy that I put into the storytelling, the sustainability, the concepts around sourcing was like not cool.
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And I was basically told like, if you want to make it, you need to take that out of your collections, don't put energy into it, and you can reincorporate it once you've made it, but that it's gonna tank your career.
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And that was the kind of like messaging that we got was like, oh, like if you want to make it, you need to lean into this.
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And if you're doing something else, like you need to forget about it.
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And I think there were people that like were in my class who were maybe interested in something that like didn't match anything that was cool.
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And I don't know fully what that would have felt like, but at that point, I was like, this is too far from the authentic me.
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Because I was like, I don't actually feel like I can ethically make stuff that people don't need.
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And so that's what drove me to drop out of school and be like, I want to work in the supply chain, I want to find ways to make fashion more ethical.
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Yeah.
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Those are pretty powerful shoulds.
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Yeah.
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I feel like like if you want to fit in, you should be doing this.
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Totally.
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That's really interesting.
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Like, how of those shoulds, like, as you said, like working through your own gender identity, how those shoulds evolve?
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Like, what were those shoulds for you as you were trying to navigate that?
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Yeah, I mean, I think like the beauty of being in fashion at that point in my life is that like most of my classmates were queer.
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Like I mentioned, Harris Reed, who's this like very iconic, like gender androgynous person, and was like one of the first people I'd ever met who looked and identified that way.
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And there were a lot of people in my class who were queer.
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Uh, I think the like creative arts uh attract that.
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But I also found when I left fashion and I stepped into like other parts of queer community, there are very clear ideas of like what a queer person should look like, what a lesbian is, and the fact that like I'm attracted to people of all genders.
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And I like to present in feminine ways sometimes, especially as a performer.
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But generally I prefer to present more masculine.
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Like some of those things really broke the molds of kind of like what was considered socially acceptable.
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I think back then, I think it's getting more and more acceptable to like be queer in different ways.
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But, you know, if we look back at the roots and history of like the queer like liberation movement, like it wasn't really safe, period, let alone to conform less.
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So it was like if you were trans, like you fully transitioned.
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And if you're queer, you're either lesbian, gay, or straight.
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Like you didn't have options.
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And I felt the reverberations of that, where there's kind of this rhetoric or mindset of like, oh, if you're bi, you're just confused, or you don't know what you want, or you're afraid of actually committing to being gay.
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I'm wondering then, like in that space, how have you um found your authentic voice?
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Like what helped settle you into those where you are now?
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Yeah.
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I think the most powerful thing for me was meeting people who were different and were convicted in their authentic self and empowered in that, and showed me that that was possible and that was powerful.
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And, you know, like at that point, it was like the era of social media.
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And I remember once reading some post or quote from somebody, and I don't remember who it was, but it was a queer person basically talking about the importance of like owning your queer and especially trans identity, regardless of what it looks like, because you never know who you will be a role model for.
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And at that time, I had gone back to school.
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I was living in New York City, and I was working as a climbing coach on the side, and I had a number of queer kids on my climbing team.
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And I realized how powerful it was for me to sit in and be vocal about my queer identity, to own and vocalize using they're pronouns and to be a role model.
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And I saw the effects of it, and that like deeply touches you.
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And it allowed me, I think, to ultimately like come into myself because I had been struggling with it and still do in many ways, but to see the ways in which showing up as myself gave other people, especially like younger folks, permission to show up as themselves.
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Like my climbing team was like the first place a couple of these kids came out and like asked to use chosen names or asked to use pronouns.
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And like that's a really powerful experience.
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Yeah.
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That's quite the journey from mean girl to where you got to.
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Totally.
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I'm wondering, like, what are the shoulds that weigh on you now?
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That's a great question.
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I mean, I think I've thought about it a lot, like going through like a second, or you could even say, like, third career change.
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Like, I tried to do fashion and art.
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I like worked for a bridal designer for a while.
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I was like, nope, that's not what I want.
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Transitioned into working in sustainability for almost a decade for the fashion industry.
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And I got to a point where I was really chronically ill.
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I couldn't work full time.
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And I was like forced to slow down and reflect on my life and be like, what do I want?
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And how do I return to a place of balance internally and externally?
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And that's what ultimately inspired me to go back to school to become a therapist and work with folks who are also ultimately trying to deconstruct what they were told about how relationships, intimacy, sexuality should look and find their true authentic self.
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And it's hard because, like, I think even being self-aware of the importance of that journey, have gone having gone through it myself, like there are still shoulds in my life, right?
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There's the like, well, shouldn't I have my life more quote unquote figured out now that I am older?
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Like, I think I was really lucky because my parents had me when they were 39.
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And my dad went to med school when he was 39.
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So I grew up with an example that you can change your career path late in life, and you can be on a different timeline than kind of what is conventional for a lot of folks.
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But I think despite that, there was still a lot of internal pressure that I had just from myself to be successful and to figure my life out, so to speak, earlier than that.
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And there was a little bit of that, I think, residually in choosing to change paths.
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I think I had had enough time to grow to be like, no, I'm okay.
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Like, I'm gonna be okay.
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But I think I feel it the most probably from like a financial standpoint of being like, oh my God, like I'm starting from ground zero again.
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Yeah.
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Shouldn't I like not be doing that again?
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No, I I completely understand that.
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I mean, this is definitely my third career as an adult, so I'm right there with you.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I'm wondering, like, when you feel like when those shoulds come up, like, where do you feel that physically or emotionally in your body?
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That's a great question.
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I like love it too, like coming from like the therapy training world, right?
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Like, I feel a lot of any of my like negative emotions, stress, anxiety, like in my chest, in my throat, sometimes in my stomach.
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Um, but I have been experiencing a lot of chronic back pain over the last couple of months.
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And having trained as a dancer, like I know that my back has gone through a lot of strain over the years.
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And, you know, pain and problems like creep up as you start to get older.
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But I also think that there is like root stress, root trauma like going on in my body that is being felt in my low back.
00:22:23.759 --> 00:22:31.279
And depending on the philosophy you come from, like your root chakra, like that's your root center.
00:22:31.359 --> 00:22:34.640
It's how you ground, it's your sense of stability and security.
00:22:34.799 --> 00:22:45.519
And so to go through a significant life transition where you are uprooting, where you are transitioning, where security is not felt, where financial security is not felt, right?
00:22:45.599 --> 00:22:56.079
Like all those things, it makes sense that I'm actually feeling that somatically in that part of my body instead of as much like in other like shocker centers or different parts.
00:22:56.720 --> 00:22:57.200
Yeah.
00:22:57.519 --> 00:22:59.200
Yeah, that would make sense.
00:22:59.440 --> 00:23:05.920
Um before we go, um kind of playing it forward for people.
00:23:06.079 --> 00:23:08.240
Like I said, there's gonna be a playlist.
00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:12.720
Um, so we shared like the the icebreaker, which is always a lot of fun.
00:23:12.960 --> 00:23:18.559
Um, what's a song right now that you think people should listen to and why?
00:23:18.880 --> 00:23:19.359
Hmm.
00:23:19.599 --> 00:23:20.240
Yeah.
00:23:20.559 --> 00:23:23.680
This is a song I have loved for a while now.
00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:27.200
It's called Kin, like K-I-N by Tourist.
00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:31.440
And it's just like an incredibly beautiful song.
00:23:31.839 --> 00:23:43.920
It's like an instrumental piece of music, and I find it like blends like melancholy with hopeful, with sadness, with joy.
00:23:44.960 --> 00:23:55.519
We didn't really talk about this at all, but like I also trained as a contemporary dancer, and dancing is the way that I root if I can't be outside.
00:23:56.000 --> 00:24:05.920
And this is like one of those songs that I could always dance to because it has so much like emotional complexity and depth in it.
00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:08.319
And I just think it's such a beautiful song.
00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:09.839
That's awesome.
00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:13.680
Are there any other shoulds for people listening that they should be doing?
00:24:15.200 --> 00:24:30.240
Um, I think that like the biggest thing that I keep coming back to that I think is like ultimately informing a lot of my work is this question of like where is the should coming from?
00:24:30.960 --> 00:24:31.599
Right?
00:24:32.319 --> 00:24:35.599
And pulling back those layers.
00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:40.079
And that's the guiding point that I keep going back to.
00:24:40.240 --> 00:24:51.519
And so would be the thing that I would like leave people with because I think that sometimes we are like completely unaware that a socialized shed is even there.
00:24:52.799 --> 00:24:53.920
Yeah, that's great.
00:24:54.079 --> 00:24:58.480
Well, Shep, thank you so much for being part of this podcast.
00:24:58.559 --> 00:25:00.160
I really appreciated your time today.
00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:01.519
Yeah, thank you so much.
00:25:01.680 --> 00:25:03.200
It was a blast.
00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:15.759
You've been listening to I Feel Like I Should.
00:25:16.240 --> 00:25:25.759
More at I feel like I should dot com and on Instagram at I feel like I should pod.
00:25:27.119 --> 00:25:28.880
I'll see you next time.
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:07.839
Before we start, a quick note that this podcast is not a substitute for professional mental health care.
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If you need support, consider reaching out to a licensed professional.
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This podcast can include strong language and difficult topics.
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Pause if you need to.
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Let's get into it.
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Shep is a queer relationship and sexuality coach and a therapist in training with a focus on non-conventional relationship structures and kink.
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Coming to this work from a background as a sustainability strategist, they bring an ecological lens to the workshops they lead, thinking about relationships as living systems shaped by context, care, and interdependence.
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Outside of their work, Shep finds their greatest joys out in nature, where a lot of that framework first took root.
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Shep, I'm looking forward to exploring how these perspectives shape the way you think about connection, identity, and what we tell ourselves we should want.
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Welcome to I Feel Like I Should.
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Awesome.
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Thank you so much for having me.
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It's great to be here.
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Yeah, thank you.
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So Ivan, starting off with an icebreaker, and if that works for you, are you ready to jump in?
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Yeah, let's do it.
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Okay, cool.
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So, what is a song you secretly love?
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Something that always lifts your mood, even if you wouldn't admit it to anyone.
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Ooh, I don't know about a song that I wouldn't admit to anyone, because I think I really try and live my life in terms of as being radically authentic as possible.
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But there are definitely songs that I might feel like somebody might judge me for, or like a certain group of my friends or people that I interact with.
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I would say, like, there this is like a whole collection of music.
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I love this.
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Like my like slutty or angry lesbian, like sapphic or queer artists, and it's very pop oriented, which I don't I never used to identify as somebody who listened to pop.
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And I think like often was like, oh, this is somewhat embarrassing.
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Reality is, is over the last few years, I've had so much fun listening to this genre, and it really lifts my spirits.
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So one of the songs in that is F you in My Head, and it's by Cloudy June, and it's like really raunchy and really fun.
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And there's like this whole playlist, the sort of music that I love to listen to now.
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Like if I just need a pick-me-up or if I'm at the gym and I like wamp me up eat energy.
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And I used to mostly listen to EDM.
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Oh, okay.
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Right on.
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I like that you're kind of breaking down to the pop side because there's a lot there.
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Um and there's a reason why it's pie music and why people l like why a lot of people listen to it, right?
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Totally.
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Um, awesome.
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So we're gonna put that one on the playlist that we're building, which is a lot of fun.
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So kind of like going backwards in time, is there a song you felt like you should have loved?
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Um, maybe because everyone else did when you were growing up or you wanted to fit in, but privately it didn't really resonate with you?
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Yeah.
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So I think like the thing that stands out to me the most in that is less a specific song, but more like a genre and era, which I think was like some of rap and hip hop at large, but especially I remember like, and this is as I got a little bit older, like dating people who are like, oh my gosh, like the original like rap and hip-hop artists are so cool, and you have to listen to it.
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And me being like, wow, I think I get this even less.
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Um, because I think from a sound perspective, like it as rap and hip-hop has evolved, it's gotten more like popified.
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And originally there was like kind of no pop influence.
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And so I think it was like very different that than the like popular music I had been bred on.
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And on top of that, like the content and the story in that sort of music was something like I didn't relate to as somebody like socializes a woman growing up in the city.
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And like I didn't really have at that age, especially like an appreciation for the historical and cultural context that bred that genre of music.
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At that same time in your life, like thinking about outside of that genre, like the culture around you, what were other shoulds you felt like growing up?
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Yeah, I think a lot of the shoulds I felt were like driven by a need to be liked and to be popular and accepted.
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Um, it's really interesting for me in particular as a genderqueer person who, as the older I've gotten, the more I've come into my trans identity.
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And when I was younger, like I felt such a deep need to be very girly and to fit in in that way.
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And there was a part of that that was authentic.
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Like I was really into fashion.
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I still love fashion and style and clothing and the way that it can help you express your identity.
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But at that age, it was like, how do I do my makeup and my hair and wear heels and skirts and look as sexy as possible?
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And I think a lot of that was about this like need to be liked.
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Um and going towards what would achieve that with my peers rather than what felt the most authentic to me.
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Yeah.
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Can you recall like a moment um or a person who made those shoulds like feel especially real for you?
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Um, this is kind of a weird anecdote, but I think it was like maybe one of the first times I felt really aware of it.
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I went to Catholic school for two years, where like a lot of that pressure felt very material.
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And when I was in Driver's Ed, it was like a mashup of students from like all over town.
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And I became really close friends with somebody who I ended up being friends with all through high school who went to the one of the other public schools in town.
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And I remember him being like in kind of like a loving, joking way, like, you look like one of the girls out of Mean Girls.
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And I just remember being like, oh my God, that's so wild, but it's true because like the culture at the Catholic school that I went to, it was like perfectly manicured, juicy hoodies and skinny jeans, and heels and push-up bras.
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And yeah, like I looked kind of like a caricature.
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And then I think that was right around the time I ended up transferring back to my local public school and like my style and my identity like really started to shift.
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And part of it was that image wasn't as popular in the public schools, but it also like I think I was coming to an age where I started to feel more comfortable like doing what I wanted and caring moderately less about what people thought.
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Yeah, yeah.
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But still at that time, like, you know, it sounds like there was an influence of that pop culture in in and around you in your space.
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Totally.
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Yeah, like that movie, Meme Girls, was like so popular, you know.
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It was like it still is, I think, right?
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They're making a new one, like a TV show or something.
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Are they really?
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Yeah.
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That makes me feel kind of old.
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And like I'm wondering, like, on top of that, like you said, like you shifted from like one school to another school, and like how those pressures that you felt at that time like shifted or changed as time has passed.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I mean, I think that like shifting schools like changed what was cool, and so allowed me to try different things on in terms of like what was even still normative.
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But I think also, as I mentioned, like coincided with a the beginning of like learning to be more authentic.
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And I think that that's something that I like struggled with a long time was the duality between like authenticity and the desire to conform or be liked.
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And I noticed that in college, and I don't think it was really until like late college that I really got to this point where I was like, okay, who am I truly?
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And how do I deconstruct that?
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And I think part of that is like I originally went to art school.
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Like I got into state sustainability by way of working in the fashion industry.
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And so talk about a field that like has a lot of shoulds and a lot of like deeply embedded ideas about like how you should look and what was cool.
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And I found that so much of being a successful designer was about your persona and how you looked and how cool you were, not how creative or talented you were.
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So there was a lot of pressure for that.
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But I think that I had started on this path of being more authentic.
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Like I was in art school, I was surrounded by people who were super creative, really hip looking.
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And I would bike to school every day in the rain in London.
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And I would like pack something cute in my bag, but I had this kind of like before it was even a thing, like Gorb core style, because there was like a practicality that I like built into what I wore.
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And that was like part of me trying to be authentic to who I was and am, rather than like completely conforming.
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Yeah.
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And in that system that you were in, like in fashion school, what were the other influences you were feeling like internally and externally that, like you said, were pushing you to be more authentic?
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I think one of the best things about working as a creative or like developing yourself as a creative as a student is authenticity is a part of it and like finding your creative spark.
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And that was what actually really perplexed me was the intensity of that duality that, like, on one hand, you're encouraged to and supposed to find your authentic self, and that's where your creativity should come from.
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And yet at the same time, you're kind of being directly and indirectly told, oh, that's not cool.
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So you shouldn't do that.
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You shouldn't be that way.
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And like, I think at that point, I just had gotten to a place in my life where I was like, well, I don't want to not be authentic.
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Yeah.
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Um, but I think that like so much of it, like in the first year I went to fashion school and then I dropped out and decided I wanted to do sustainability work.
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Um, like a lot of it is influenced by what the main designers are doing.
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The school is trying to produce the next most famous designer.
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And like I went to school with folks like Harris Reed, who is now like one of the top young designers in the world.
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And like you kind of watched people like that who had a very strong persona, who worked as a model, who came from wealth, and like that was kind of the world you were in.
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And those were the factors like influencing like what was cool.
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Yeah.
00:12:13.919 --> 00:12:17.200
In those spaces, like I find this really interesting.
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People are trying to find themselves, right, be authentic, but it sounds like there's a lot of pressure, like you said, to be the next best thing.
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And often those pressures don't come from internal forces, they come from external forces, right?
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Whether it's economic or societal expectations or however you're supposed to like perform in that space.
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So, how does someone become authentic in a space that wants you to become authentic, but in a weird way wants you to like go with the main flow?
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Yeah.
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I think it requires like developing like a sense of not completely caring and wanting your authenticity more than you want success or to be cool or to be liked.
00:13:04.799 --> 00:13:17.279
Um, but I think a lot of it is that like the people who were most successful were the ones that their authentic self matched what was cool, you know, because there wasn't a ton of space.
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And I saw that like I was like deep in my like queer identity journey at the time.
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A lot of what I was interested in in fashion was like gender blended style and like men's suiting and tailoring for women.
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Um and that was really cool.
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Like I watched that be received well.
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And then all the energy that I put into the storytelling, the sustainability, the concepts around sourcing was like not cool.
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And I was basically told like, if you want to make it, you need to take that out of your collections, don't put energy into it, and you can reincorporate it once you've made it, but that it's gonna tank your career.
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And that was the kind of like messaging that we got was like, oh, like if you want to make it, you need to lean into this.
00:14:07.440 --> 00:14:10.799
And if you're doing something else, like you need to forget about it.
00:14:10.960 --> 00:14:17.440
And I think there were people that like were in my class who were maybe interested in something that like didn't match anything that was cool.
00:14:17.600 --> 00:14:25.200
And I don't know fully what that would have felt like, but at that point, I was like, this is too far from the authentic me.
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Because I was like, I don't actually feel like I can ethically make stuff that people don't need.
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And so that's what drove me to drop out of school and be like, I want to work in the supply chain, I want to find ways to make fashion more ethical.
00:14:39.600 --> 00:14:40.080
Yeah.
00:14:40.320 --> 00:14:42.240
Those are pretty powerful shoulds.
00:14:42.399 --> 00:14:42.639
Yeah.
00:14:42.879 --> 00:14:47.039
I feel like like if you want to fit in, you should be doing this.
00:14:47.360 --> 00:14:48.159
Totally.
00:14:48.559 --> 00:14:50.080
That's really interesting.
00:14:50.320 --> 00:15:02.320
Like, how of those shoulds, like, as you said, like working through your own gender identity, how those shoulds evolve?
00:15:02.399 --> 00:15:06.320
Like, what were those shoulds for you as you were trying to navigate that?
00:15:06.879 --> 00:15:13.440
Yeah, I mean, I think like the beauty of being in fashion at that point in my life is that like most of my classmates were queer.
00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:25.519
Like I mentioned, Harris Reed, who's this like very iconic, like gender androgynous person, and was like one of the first people I'd ever met who looked and identified that way.
00:15:25.679 --> 00:15:28.320
And there were a lot of people in my class who were queer.
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Uh, I think the like creative arts uh attract that.
00:15:32.559 --> 00:15:52.240
But I also found when I left fashion and I stepped into like other parts of queer community, there are very clear ideas of like what a queer person should look like, what a lesbian is, and the fact that like I'm attracted to people of all genders.
00:15:52.639 --> 00:15:59.360
And I like to present in feminine ways sometimes, especially as a performer.
00:15:59.679 --> 00:16:03.919
But generally I prefer to present more masculine.
00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:09.759
Like some of those things really broke the molds of kind of like what was considered socially acceptable.
00:16:09.919 --> 00:16:15.679
I think back then, I think it's getting more and more acceptable to like be queer in different ways.
00:16:16.000 --> 00:16:28.240
But, you know, if we look back at the roots and history of like the queer like liberation movement, like it wasn't really safe, period, let alone to conform less.
00:16:28.399 --> 00:16:32.000
So it was like if you were trans, like you fully transitioned.
00:16:32.159 --> 00:16:35.440
And if you're queer, you're either lesbian, gay, or straight.
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Like you didn't have options.
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And I felt the reverberations of that, where there's kind of this rhetoric or mindset of like, oh, if you're bi, you're just confused, or you don't know what you want, or you're afraid of actually committing to being gay.
00:16:54.559 --> 00:17:02.159
I'm wondering then, like in that space, how have you um found your authentic voice?
00:17:02.320 --> 00:17:05.920
Like what helped settle you into those where you are now?
00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:06.720
Yeah.
00:17:06.960 --> 00:17:23.759
I think the most powerful thing for me was meeting people who were different and were convicted in their authentic self and empowered in that, and showed me that that was possible and that was powerful.
00:17:24.400 --> 00:17:28.400
And, you know, like at that point, it was like the era of social media.
00:17:28.480 --> 00:17:47.839
And I remember once reading some post or quote from somebody, and I don't remember who it was, but it was a queer person basically talking about the importance of like owning your queer and especially trans identity, regardless of what it looks like, because you never know who you will be a role model for.
00:17:48.319 --> 00:17:51.359
And at that time, I had gone back to school.
00:17:51.440 --> 00:18:00.079
I was living in New York City, and I was working as a climbing coach on the side, and I had a number of queer kids on my climbing team.
00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:15.039
And I realized how powerful it was for me to sit in and be vocal about my queer identity, to own and vocalize using they're pronouns and to be a role model.
00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:20.480
And I saw the effects of it, and that like deeply touches you.
00:18:20.720 --> 00:18:37.839
And it allowed me, I think, to ultimately like come into myself because I had been struggling with it and still do in many ways, but to see the ways in which showing up as myself gave other people, especially like younger folks, permission to show up as themselves.
00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:45.359
Like my climbing team was like the first place a couple of these kids came out and like asked to use chosen names or asked to use pronouns.
00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:48.400
And like that's a really powerful experience.
00:18:48.799 --> 00:18:49.279
Yeah.
00:18:49.519 --> 00:18:54.079
That's quite the journey from mean girl to where you got to.
00:18:54.319 --> 00:18:54.799
Totally.
00:18:54.960 --> 00:18:58.319
I'm wondering, like, what are the shoulds that weigh on you now?
00:18:58.799 --> 00:19:00.079
That's a great question.
00:19:00.240 --> 00:19:07.039
I mean, I think I've thought about it a lot, like going through like a second, or you could even say, like, third career change.
00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:09.039
Like, I tried to do fashion and art.
00:19:09.200 --> 00:19:11.119
I like worked for a bridal designer for a while.
00:19:11.200 --> 00:19:13.119
I was like, nope, that's not what I want.
00:19:13.519 --> 00:19:18.960
Transitioned into working in sustainability for almost a decade for the fashion industry.
00:19:19.200 --> 00:19:22.640
And I got to a point where I was really chronically ill.
00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:24.480
I couldn't work full time.
00:19:25.119 --> 00:19:29.759
And I was like forced to slow down and reflect on my life and be like, what do I want?
00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:35.200
And how do I return to a place of balance internally and externally?
00:19:35.359 --> 00:19:54.640
And that's what ultimately inspired me to go back to school to become a therapist and work with folks who are also ultimately trying to deconstruct what they were told about how relationships, intimacy, sexuality should look and find their true authentic self.
00:19:54.960 --> 00:20:06.880
And it's hard because, like, I think even being self-aware of the importance of that journey, have gone having gone through it myself, like there are still shoulds in my life, right?
00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:14.160
There's the like, well, shouldn't I have my life more quote unquote figured out now that I am older?
00:20:14.319 --> 00:20:19.839
Like, I think I was really lucky because my parents had me when they were 39.
00:20:20.000 --> 00:20:22.880
And my dad went to med school when he was 39.
00:20:23.119 --> 00:20:35.599
So I grew up with an example that you can change your career path late in life, and you can be on a different timeline than kind of what is conventional for a lot of folks.
00:20:35.839 --> 00:20:48.319
But I think despite that, there was still a lot of internal pressure that I had just from myself to be successful and to figure my life out, so to speak, earlier than that.
00:20:48.640 --> 00:20:56.079
And there was a little bit of that, I think, residually in choosing to change paths.
00:20:56.319 --> 00:21:02.720
I think I had had enough time to grow to be like, no, I'm okay.
00:21:02.880 --> 00:21:04.400
Like, I'm gonna be okay.
00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:13.519
But I think I feel it the most probably from like a financial standpoint of being like, oh my God, like I'm starting from ground zero again.
00:21:13.759 --> 00:21:14.160
Yeah.
00:21:14.480 --> 00:21:17.519
Shouldn't I like not be doing that again?
00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:20.559
No, I I completely understand that.
00:21:20.720 --> 00:21:25.599
I mean, this is definitely my third career as an adult, so I'm right there with you.
00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:26.559
Yeah.
00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:27.200
Yeah.
00:21:27.359 --> 00:21:37.440
I'm wondering, like, when you feel like when those shoulds come up, like, where do you feel that physically or emotionally in your body?
00:21:38.160 --> 00:21:39.359
That's a great question.
00:21:39.440 --> 00:21:43.200
I like love it too, like coming from like the therapy training world, right?
00:21:43.279 --> 00:21:52.400
Like, I feel a lot of any of my like negative emotions, stress, anxiety, like in my chest, in my throat, sometimes in my stomach.
00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:59.759
Um, but I have been experiencing a lot of chronic back pain over the last couple of months.
00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:09.599
And having trained as a dancer, like I know that my back has gone through a lot of strain over the years.
00:22:09.920 --> 00:22:14.160
And, you know, pain and problems like creep up as you start to get older.
00:22:14.400 --> 00:22:23.200
But I also think that there is like root stress, root trauma like going on in my body that is being felt in my low back.
00:22:23.759 --> 00:22:31.279
And depending on the philosophy you come from, like your root chakra, like that's your root center.
00:22:31.359 --> 00:22:34.640
It's how you ground, it's your sense of stability and security.
00:22:34.799 --> 00:22:45.519
And so to go through a significant life transition where you are uprooting, where you are transitioning, where security is not felt, where financial security is not felt, right?
00:22:45.599 --> 00:22:56.079
Like all those things, it makes sense that I'm actually feeling that somatically in that part of my body instead of as much like in other like shocker centers or different parts.
00:22:56.720 --> 00:22:57.200
Yeah.
00:22:57.519 --> 00:22:59.200
Yeah, that would make sense.
00:22:59.440 --> 00:23:05.920
Um before we go, um kind of playing it forward for people.
00:23:06.079 --> 00:23:08.240
Like I said, there's gonna be a playlist.
00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:12.720
Um, so we shared like the the icebreaker, which is always a lot of fun.
00:23:12.960 --> 00:23:18.559
Um, what's a song right now that you think people should listen to and why?
00:23:18.880 --> 00:23:19.359
Hmm.
00:23:19.599 --> 00:23:20.240
Yeah.
00:23:20.559 --> 00:23:23.680
This is a song I have loved for a while now.
00:23:23.839 --> 00:23:27.200
It's called Kin, like K-I-N by Tourist.
00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:31.440
And it's just like an incredibly beautiful song.
00:23:31.839 --> 00:23:43.920
It's like an instrumental piece of music, and I find it like blends like melancholy with hopeful, with sadness, with joy.
00:23:44.960 --> 00:23:55.519
We didn't really talk about this at all, but like I also trained as a contemporary dancer, and dancing is the way that I root if I can't be outside.
00:23:56.000 --> 00:24:05.920
And this is like one of those songs that I could always dance to because it has so much like emotional complexity and depth in it.
00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:08.319
And I just think it's such a beautiful song.
00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:09.839
That's awesome.
00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:13.680
Are there any other shoulds for people listening that they should be doing?
00:24:15.200 --> 00:24:30.240
Um, I think that like the biggest thing that I keep coming back to that I think is like ultimately informing a lot of my work is this question of like where is the should coming from?
00:24:30.960 --> 00:24:31.599
Right?
00:24:32.319 --> 00:24:35.599
And pulling back those layers.
00:24:36.240 --> 00:24:40.079
And that's the guiding point that I keep going back to.
00:24:40.240 --> 00:24:51.519
And so would be the thing that I would like leave people with because I think that sometimes we are like completely unaware that a socialized shed is even there.
00:24:52.799 --> 00:24:53.920
Yeah, that's great.
00:24:54.079 --> 00:24:58.480
Well, Shep, thank you so much for being part of this podcast.
00:24:58.559 --> 00:25:00.160
I really appreciated your time today.
00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:01.519
Yeah, thank you so much.
00:25:01.680 --> 00:25:03.200
It was a blast.
00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:15.759
You've been listening to I Feel Like I Should.
00:25:16.240 --> 00:25:25.759
More at I feel like I should dot com and on Instagram at I feel like I should pod.
00:25:27.119 --> 00:25:28.880
I'll see you next time.
