WEBVTT
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Welcome to PMI's GEMBAfication.
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This is the podcast where we explore the real stories behind performance improvement and bringing improvements to where the work is really done.
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And of course, the highs and lows that we all experience of making improvements.
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I'm your host, Susannah Clarke, Managing Partner at PMI, and today I'm joined by Frode Steinsland, Lean Manager at Comrod.
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So we're going to talk about what the problem was that you faced, how you mobilised, what worked, what didn't, and most importantly, what you learned from that.
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So thank you very much for joining me today.
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Frode, how are you?
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I'm good, happy to be here.
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Excellent.
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That's always good news.
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It's a good start.
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I wonder if you could start by giving us some context about Comrod and also how you organise improvement in Comrod.
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Yep.
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Comrod, we produce material for defence, so communication equipment.
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So we have from simple, how shall I say, less vital production all the way to very small components, electronic components that work together as a system.
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So that's what we live of.
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I came here in 2023, mid-2023, and started organising our Lean journey.
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So I was hired as the Group Lean Manager in Comrod Communication.
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Comrod Communication owns a lot of subsidiaries around the world.
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So I built up local Lean expertise in each and every business unit.
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So I'm the in the communication.
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And then for each business unit we have at least one, preferably two, that can, work together, on Lean and I go there and train them.
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Okay.
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And we do the journey together.
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And those are people who are also based in different locations.
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You're not co located, are you?
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Yeah, they are placed in different locations and normally come from their own, how shall I say, Gemba, or their own environment.
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So they speak the local language, they know the local cultures and yeah, that sort of my Toyota tools and thinking into their own environment, something that works for them.
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Okay, great, thank you.
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So tell us about the process improvement or the transformation that for you has made a real difference.
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Yeah, can start talking about Sweden.
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Tl, that's a utility plant we have there.
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We work in an environment where actually we don't have the luxury of theory in a way, either the operation work or it doesn't.
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Yes.
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So, and what I've learned over the years is that most organisations, they don't actually have a performance problem, they have a visibility problem and often a leadership problem.
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Or should I say maybe not leadership problem, but missing leadership for management at the Gemba, they all try to manage with modern tools, trusting spreadsheets and ERP systems to actually reflect what is happening on the Gemba.
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And most companies, they, they, they don't afford licences for the people actually working on the Gamba.
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So how can they actually think that the ERP system is actually telling the truth?
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So.
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Yeah.
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So how have you overcome that?
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Well, in Sweden, it started with, our CEO on the group level.
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He felt that something was wrong.
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He had been there himself.
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He's really operational.
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He's coming from operation a long time ago himself.
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So he went there with me, got his hands dirty.
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We worked until maybe 2 o' clock at night trying to help get the plant up and running after they created a major havoc in a way.
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So he saw that something wasn't right.
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He tried to challenge the managing director there at the time to do things differently.
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But, yeah, it didn't go in the right direction before we started supporting on Lean, actually.
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Right.
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So I agreed that, okay, I will go there heavily, heavily supporting them with what I can do.
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So when I came there and started working, there was, I would say there was no real understanding of how the operation was performing.
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There was no proper measurements, no visibility in place.
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So we introduced oe.
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And, when we introduced that, we found that the performance was actually somewhere around 25, 30% OE with defect rates at 25%.
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So that was the moment where the organisation could see themselves, the reality.
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Yes.
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But just seeing a number is not enough.
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We can't convince people to change through meetings or arguments, so they need to experience it themselves.
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So I would say I didn't go in with tools.
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I spent time on the floor understanding people, how they were actually working and how, the system actually behaved.
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And from there we built basic performance visibility, daily follow up, better shift structures and practically problem solving still with a lot of push from my side.
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I had to be there all the time and sometimes I pushed so hard that the production manager hated me, almost hated me for pulling him from his office and onto the Gamba.
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To see himself, you have to see the same as I see, in a way, you know.
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Yes.
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Well, it's back to your point at the beginning about creating visibility, isn't it?
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Not sitting behind the system information, but seeing the reality of what's really happening.
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Yeah.
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And linking that to what he can see on the screen, actually even that it's better because then he can say, wait a minute, there's a problem here.
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The system is telling me this, but the reality is different.
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So you get the connection, knowing not only what to improve on the Gemba, but also on, ERP system.
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Yeah.
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And how, when you were doing this work with, you know, with the people who are working, on production, how did they feel about the practises that you were starting to implement and the measurements in particular?
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Yeah.
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Actually the biggest shift wasn't in the tools, like the OE measurement itself.
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It was when the leadership started engaging differently with the operation.
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So when they started to see the problems themselves, use using the system, that sort of the tools that was implemented to identify the problems themselves, they have to see themselves and they need to take ownership to solve it.
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So eventually the Lean Coordinator in Diap, he took, over as, coo, and.
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And now they are doing.
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Yeah, the results are significant.
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But it's like this.
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They produce several, several times the previous volume with no backlog, better quality, but still with the same equipment.
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Yeah.
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And total labour productivity is now three times higher than the baseline of 20, 23.
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And then the real, the real solid change and sustainable change, that didn't happen when I was there, we got the improvements rolling.
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But now with the CEO being the former Lean Coordinator, he know exactly so he can drive the right actions with the team.
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So, yeah, it's, it's.
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Yeah, some people may say, oh, this is really fast, incredible result that usually takes longer.
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But, it's not a.
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I don't see it as a lean success storey.
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It's, What happened is that the uncovered capacity that was always there, it was just invisible.
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So what we did was make it visible.
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Well, but the capacity presumably was hidden or lost by not having the right, as you say, visibility of what was actually happening and without the processes working as effectively as they could do.
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Yeah, exactly.
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So, yeah, I would say the learning is that I didn't put a lot of improvement, a lot of time into implementing tools.
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It went into getting people to a point where they actually wanted to change themselves.
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Yes.
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So I'd say, 90% of the time I spent there is that.
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And the rest is training and local, adaptations of Lean tools that they have to.
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They can take the theory that I give, but then they need to make it their own.
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In a way.
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I think that's an incredible statistic.
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You know, the idea that 90% of the effort and time was put into helping the people want to change.
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Because I, I can imagine other people looking at where they're spending their time and often it is a lot more on training and tools than the, the almost the psychology of the people.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, I remember back in the days when I'm working with McKinsey when on, on lean transformations in another company that I used to work for.
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And, and there you know, it was like 90, 90% lean tools, focus training and pushing through everything in like 1212 weeks.
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But we learned we, we didn't make any change like that.
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But after the McKinsey helped us to, with the theoretical part, we developed our own system based on that.
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And yeah, now I think that the way we work in Conrad, we say okay, we face it in waves.
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We say way one is to develop the local resources, developing themselves first and then we, we work hard and of course we work on improvement.
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But then it's followed by a wave 2 of 18 months and that's the local lean resources.
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Next development phase is to develop others which they work like train the trainer.
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So by this we have a 36 month transformation period to train local change agents and to make them into train the trainers also on lean.
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So yeah, that's how we work.
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And so a 36 month transformation, you know, three years.
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But through that you're seeing the sorts of results where you talked about for the, for what you saw in Sweden.
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So increasing volume, no backlog, better quality outputs, reduction in defects.
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And that is what you're being able to replicate location by location.
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Exactly.
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Yeah, that is what I talk about now is actually way one, it's 18 months.
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It's right in the middle of wave one and way two.
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So Sweden, they are in wave two.
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France, this is our second transformation, have been running for 18 months in July.
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So we are getting close to the end of wave one.
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So I can talk a little bit about France as well.
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Yeah, that would be interesting.
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Yeah, there it was similar but also different.
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I mean the managing director there, he realised quite early that he needed help.
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So they were open from the beginning.
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But even then change didn't happen immediately.
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So when it started with me having a meeting with him, just one on one and what we saw was we just looked at the PNL and, and then we saw a declining performance for years, changes in product mix.
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And when I went to the Gemba, I saw a factory that hadn't adapted to this change since 2017.
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People were working hard, a lot of effort was not creating value.
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So we, we started, tried to show that picture in diagnostics with trainings, pilot projects, strong lean support to get commitment that okay, this is what we see.
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Still it didn't move.
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I don't think because people were against it.
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But the organisation hadn't really changed how it was operating.
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So what I learned there is that even when people say they won't change, they often still sort of defend the old way.
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Especially if we tried before and.
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And or shall I say previous attempts, like in France, they have done perfect sort of lean transformations in the past.
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And I saw one pilot that was living still, but.
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But I could also see that it was perfect tool execution.
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So they had some experience from that in the past.
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So there the real shift it came when people started to personally experience a different way of working.
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So there we did the facilitation of the management team in workshops.
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So we tried to gather them all into a room and then ask them, okay, what needs to change in terms of looking at the PL and decreasing top line.
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But The vista was decreasing even more.
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So we actually created a plan, a roadmap for the management and then we requested them to go in their vertical.
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It's like R and D manager, sales manager, production manager and so on.
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And then do the catch ball with, with their own vertical and come back with a detailed version that you can live with out of this overall roadmap.
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So for, for example, working with the production leader, not only interest, but how he structured his day to have time at the Gamba, to have time for problem solving, time to support the team.
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And that really was the turning point there.
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That's when things really started to happen.
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And this was 2024, I'd say.
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Yeah, something started with the management team.
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They started realising that they had to change around Christmas 2024 and then the real change with the production leader came around Easter 2025.
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So it's interesting again because.
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So really the message here is that whilst tools are useful, it's not where you start.
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Where you need to start is the people wanting to change and to understand how to change and to.
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For them to have the emotional buy in.
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But most importantly, I'm hearing it's that leadership and management attention to the Gemba and what's happening and watching and listening and hearing that feedback.
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Exactly.
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Yeah.
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They have to see themselves and they have to genuinely sort of, they need the feeling that something have to change otherwise they will continue in the same way.
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Yes.
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And I noticed, I made a note when you were saying earlier about, you know, the people were working hard but their effort was not creating value.
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And I thought that was a great way of summing up what was going on there because in our experience, most People are working really hard, they're coming to work and they're really trying to do their best.
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They do, they do, they really do.
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With France again in 2023, I know our CEO said, yeah, but they have, 20% more in pipeline.
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They could deliver, but they work, they work overtime, they do whatever.
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But it seems that they cannot turn around and grow at the top line there, no matter how hard they work.
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So I Remember, I think 2023 ended up at 15 million euros turnover with a lot of stress.
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Every time I was there, I saw the management team.
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They came in early, they were the last ones to leave, maybe eight, nine o' clock in the evening.
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What they were doing, they were firefighting things from the missing system and trying to close the gaps with, themselves that actually the team should work, on before they went home.
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Everyone felt it was a stress to deliver 15 million euros in 2023, 2025, with the change of the production leader and everyone aligned, we actually delivered 30 million euros top line, but with, with no pressure.
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In a way, everyone felt more comfortable.
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Total Labour productivity is 30% better in 2025 than 2023 with a, much higher top line.
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Amazing, amazing, amazing results and such an interesting storey.
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Thank you.
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And so the, you know, when new things come along, I mean, AI being an example of that.
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Again, you're, what are you doing with the leadership team in order to sort of ensure that you're following those principles again?
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Yeah, we.
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I always like my lean team to be up to date, as up to date as possible.
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And I see AI, it's a way of being, being efficient.
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You can, process a lot of text, for instance, without missing out on details, if you know how to use it.
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So therefore I contact.
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Of course I contacted you pmi, because I believe in the, in this pdca, the miac, this methodology mixed with AI.
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If you just start using AI without knowing, or not working in a structured way with it, I believe it, it doesn't create the most value it can do.
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So, yeah, started with the questioning, do you have any AI training that you can support us with, especially the lean team?
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And you said, yes.
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And I came back and said, okay, I would like to involve our cto, our CTO runner, because he have to be aware of what my team can do, what they are capable of doing in all the business units, but also handle the risk, you know, the risk and of it being in defence industry, we have this compliance, strong compliance, so it needs to be managed.
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So we don't leak any.
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I don't want that we do anything wrong.
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And then they said, oh, let's forget AI.
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That's dangerous, you know.
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Right, sure.
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So he came along on the training.
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We started back in September and finished in March, was it?
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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So afterwards, we, have this weekly AI clinic with team where we exchange from dictionary business units what they are doing.
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Have they made any agents?
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How do we do it?
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Right now, they have mainly been focusing on, tools for, how shall I say, 5s, helpers, things like this.
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Or Lean implementation consultants.
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Or their own virtual assistant where they feed with our Lean models.
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Plus some of your material, actually, from PMI.
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So they have their personal assistant.
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Quite early on, we were already counting 40 agents in total.
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AI agents, not only from the Lean team, but, That's a lot already, I would say.
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Yeah.
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Quite early.
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And the CTO realised that now it's time to start managing those.
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So we.
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Yeah.
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What is the, English name, you know, for.
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I forgot the English name.
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Yeah.
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Governance.
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Thank you.
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That he had to.
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Now we have to focus on governance because.
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Yeah, and I think that's interesting, you know, you talk about your weekly clinics, the fact that your CTO has continued to join those whenever he can, and then is creating that link to your technology team and, to the leadership to ensure that you, as you say, you are able to create the value from using AI, but without the risk of jeopardising compliance.
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Which I think is a fantastic approach for you guys.
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Yeah, yeah.
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I feel it's working here really well.
00:24:19.691 --> 00:24:22.049
The Lean Team is great.
00:24:22.050 --> 00:24:26.450
They do great work on the ground every day.
00:24:26.451 --> 00:24:31.690
They coach, they challenge, they build trust with the people in the operation.
00:24:31.691 --> 00:24:36.650
But not only operation, also, you know, with the CTO.
00:24:37.539 --> 00:24:41.619
So they are present every day, working hard, which is good.
00:24:41.621 --> 00:24:43.940
And then at the same time, they.
00:24:43.941 --> 00:24:46.339
I would say they don't operate in a vacuum.
00:24:47.220 --> 00:24:51.140
So for them to succeed, a lot have to be in place.
00:24:51.141 --> 00:24:58.660
Alignment at the management level that I spend a lot of time on, setting the right priorities, trying to protect their time.
00:24:58.661 --> 00:25:01.859
And sometimes quite difficult decisions have to be made.
00:25:02.500 --> 00:25:04.809
Yes, that's how it is.
00:25:05.450 --> 00:25:05.930
Yeah.
00:25:06.490 --> 00:25:09.049
So that's what I'm trying to create that environment.
00:25:11.529 --> 00:25:14.809
So they can focus on the operation, basically.
00:25:16.089 --> 00:25:16.490
Yes.
00:25:16.490 --> 00:25:17.769
And create the success.
00:25:19.930 --> 00:25:21.130
Fantastic.
00:25:21.131 --> 00:25:26.569
Freda, thank you so much for your time today and for sharing how you're approaching this work.
00:25:26.570 --> 00:25:28.009
I really, really value it.
00:25:28.010 --> 00:25:29.130
Thank you so much.
00:25:29.131 --> 00:25:32.049
So, to everyone who's listened to this, Storey, thank you very much.
00:25:32.050 --> 00:25:34.009
I hope you've enjoyed this episode.
00:25:34.010 --> 00:25:35.190
Don't forget to subscribe.
00:25:35.191 --> 00:25:42.230
Subscribe, share, leave us a review. The more we grow this podcast, the better everybody's work becomes.
00:25:42.230 --> 00:25:47.750
And you can find more insights and resources at pmi.co.uk or follow us on LinkedIn.
00:25:48.390 --> 00:25:53.509
So, until next time, thank you again, Frode, and thank you for listening.
00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:02.399
Welcome to PMI's GEMBAfication.
00:00:02.959 --> 00:00:10.800
This is the podcast where we explore the real stories behind performance improvement and bringing improvements to where the work is really done.
00:00:10.801 --> 00:00:15.359
And of course, the highs and lows that we all experience of making improvements.
00:00:15.361 --> 00:00:23.600
I'm your host, Susannah Clarke, Managing Partner at PMI, and today I'm joined by Frode Steinsland, Lean Manager at Comrod.
00:00:23.600 --> 00:00:32.780
So we're going to talk about what the problem was that you faced, how you mobilised, what worked, what didn't, and most importantly, what you learned from that.
00:00:32.780 --> 00:00:35.060
So thank you very much for joining me today.
00:00:35.060 --> 00:00:36.219
Frode, how are you?
00:00:37.100 --> 00:00:39.020
I'm good, happy to be here.
00:00:39.740 --> 00:00:40.340
Excellent.
00:00:40.341 --> 00:00:41.500
That's always good news.
00:00:41.500 --> 00:00:42.619
It's a good start.
00:00:42.621 --> 00:00:51.820
I wonder if you could start by giving us some context about Comrod and also how you organise improvement in Comrod.
00:00:53.100 --> 00:00:53.740
Yep.
00:00:55.179 --> 00:01:02.630
Comrod, we produce material for defence, so communication equipment.
00:01:02.631 --> 00:01:14.469
So we have from simple, how shall I say, less vital production all the way to very small components, electronic components that work together as a system.
00:01:15.510 --> 00:01:17.909
So that's what we live of.
00:01:20.549 --> 00:01:30.560
I came here in 2023, mid-2023, and started organising our Lean journey.
00:01:30.561 --> 00:01:34.840
So I was hired as the Group Lean Manager in Comrod Communication.
00:01:34.840 --> 00:01:40.079
Comrod Communication owns a lot of subsidiaries around the world.
00:01:40.081 --> 00:01:46.599
So I built up local Lean expertise in each and every business unit.
00:01:46.600 --> 00:01:49.079
So I'm the in the communication.
00:01:49.081 --> 00:02:00.489
And then for each business unit we have at least one, preferably two, that can, work together, on Lean and I go there and train them.
00:02:01.290 --> 00:02:01.890
Okay.
00:02:01.891 --> 00:02:03.769
And we do the journey together.
00:02:04.890 --> 00:02:07.810
And those are people who are also based in different locations.
00:02:07.811 --> 00:02:09.530
You're not co located, are you?
00:02:10.169 --> 00:02:20.740
Yeah, they are placed in different locations and normally come from their own, how shall I say, Gemba, or their own environment.
00:02:20.741 --> 00:02:35.860
So they speak the local language, they know the local cultures and yeah, that sort of my Toyota tools and thinking into their own environment, something that works for them.
00:02:36.580 --> 00:02:38.020
Okay, great, thank you.
00:02:38.819 --> 00:02:44.659
So tell us about the process improvement or the transformation that for you has made a real difference.
00:02:46.129 --> 00:02:51.009
Yeah, can start talking about Sweden.
00:02:51.010 --> 00:02:53.969
Tl, that's a utility plant we have there.
00:02:55.490 --> 00:03:04.370
We work in an environment where actually we don't have the luxury of theory in a way, either the operation work or it doesn't.
00:03:05.009 --> 00:03:05.569
Yes.
00:03:06.370 --> 00:03:18.930
So, and what I've learned over the years is that most organisations, they don't actually have a performance problem, they have a visibility problem and often a leadership problem.
00:03:18.931 --> 00:03:40.199
Or should I say maybe not leadership problem, but missing leadership for management at the Gemba, they all try to manage with modern tools, trusting spreadsheets and ERP systems to actually reflect what is happening on the Gemba.
00:03:40.200 --> 00:03:47.840
And most companies, they, they, they don't afford licences for the people actually working on the Gamba.
00:03:47.841 --> 00:03:54.319
So how can they actually think that the ERP system is actually telling the truth?
00:03:55.120 --> 00:03:55.520
So.
00:03:56.080 --> 00:03:56.479
Yeah.
00:03:56.480 --> 00:03:58.080
So how have you overcome that?
00:03:59.360 --> 00:04:06.250
Well, in Sweden, it started with, our CEO on the group level.
00:04:06.251 --> 00:04:08.009
He felt that something was wrong.
00:04:08.650 --> 00:04:10.729
He had been there himself.
00:04:10.730 --> 00:04:12.810
He's really operational.
00:04:13.530 --> 00:04:16.649
He's coming from operation a long time ago himself.
00:04:17.370 --> 00:04:22.050
So he went there with me, got his hands dirty.
00:04:22.050 --> 00:04:30.970
We worked until maybe 2 o' clock at night trying to help get the plant up and running after they created a major havoc in a way.
00:04:34.259 --> 00:04:36.660
So he saw that something wasn't right.
00:04:36.661 --> 00:04:43.180
He tried to challenge the managing director there at the time to do things differently.
00:04:43.180 --> 00:04:52.899
But, yeah, it didn't go in the right direction before we started supporting on Lean, actually.
00:04:53.699 --> 00:04:54.100
Right.
00:04:54.980 --> 00:05:00.579
So I agreed that, okay, I will go there heavily, heavily supporting them with what I can do.
00:05:01.699 --> 00:05:11.459
So when I came there and started working, there was, I would say there was no real understanding of how the operation was performing.
00:05:11.461 --> 00:05:14.660
There was no proper measurements, no visibility in place.
00:05:15.860 --> 00:05:18.819
So we introduced oe.
00:05:18.821 --> 00:05:30.889
And, when we introduced that, we found that the performance was actually somewhere around 25, 30% OE with defect rates at 25%.
00:05:33.129 --> 00:05:41.689
So that was the moment where the organisation could see themselves, the reality.
00:05:42.970 --> 00:05:43.529
Yes.
00:05:46.410 --> 00:05:48.569
But just seeing a number is not enough.
00:05:48.571 --> 00:05:56.839
We can't convince people to change through meetings or arguments, so they need to experience it themselves.
00:05:57.800 --> 00:06:00.680
So I would say I didn't go in with tools.
00:06:01.319 --> 00:06:09.399
I spent time on the floor understanding people, how they were actually working and how, the system actually behaved.
00:06:09.401 --> 00:06:22.129
And from there we built basic performance visibility, daily follow up, better shift structures and practically problem solving still with a lot of push from my side.
00:06:22.130 --> 00:06:34.290
I had to be there all the time and sometimes I pushed so hard that the production manager hated me, almost hated me for pulling him from his office and onto the Gamba.
00:06:34.290 --> 00:06:38.769
To see himself, you have to see the same as I see, in a way, you know.
00:06:39.329 --> 00:06:39.810
Yes.
00:06:39.810 --> 00:06:44.129
Well, it's back to your point at the beginning about creating visibility, isn't it?
00:06:45.329 --> 00:06:51.250
Not sitting behind the system information, but seeing the reality of what's really happening.
00:06:52.120 --> 00:06:52.439
Yeah.
00:06:52.440 --> 00:07:01.399
And linking that to what he can see on the screen, actually even that it's better because then he can say, wait a minute, there's a problem here.
00:07:01.401 --> 00:07:05.000
The system is telling me this, but the reality is different.
00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:12.360
So you get the connection, knowing not only what to improve on the Gemba, but also on, ERP system.
00:07:13.000 --> 00:07:13.480
Yeah.
00:07:14.360 --> 00:07:30.730
And how, when you were doing this work with, you know, with the people who are working, on production, how did they feel about the practises that you were starting to implement and the measurements in particular?
00:07:31.850 --> 00:07:32.329
Yeah.
00:07:33.850 --> 00:07:41.290
Actually the biggest shift wasn't in the tools, like the OE measurement itself.
00:07:41.290 --> 00:07:46.819
It was when the leadership started engaging differently with the operation.
00:07:47.699 --> 00:08:01.139
So when they started to see the problems themselves, use using the system, that sort of the tools that was implemented to identify the problems themselves, they have to see themselves and they need to take ownership to solve it.
00:08:02.500 --> 00:08:11.689
So eventually the Lean Coordinator in Diap, he took, over as, coo, and.
00:08:12.569 --> 00:08:13.850
And now they are doing.
00:08:15.529 --> 00:08:18.250
Yeah, the results are significant.
00:08:18.250 --> 00:08:19.290
But it's like this.
00:08:19.930 --> 00:08:29.449
They produce several, several times the previous volume with no backlog, better quality, but still with the same equipment.
00:08:30.410 --> 00:08:30.889
Yeah.
00:08:32.009 --> 00:08:37.370
And total labour productivity is now three times higher than the baseline of 20, 23.
00:08:37.370 --> 00:08:47.649
And then the real, the real solid change and sustainable change, that didn't happen when I was there, we got the improvements rolling.
00:08:47.649 --> 00:08:57.528
But now with the CEO being the former Lean Coordinator, he know exactly so he can drive the right actions with the team.
00:08:58.489 --> 00:09:02.009
So, yeah, it's, it's.
00:09:02.009 --> 00:09:07.549
Yeah, some people may say, oh, this is really fast, incredible result that usually takes longer.
00:09:07.551 --> 00:09:09.750
But, it's not a.
00:09:09.750 --> 00:09:12.110
I don't see it as a lean success storey.
00:09:12.110 --> 00:09:20.830
It's, What happened is that the uncovered capacity that was always there, it was just invisible.
00:09:21.470 --> 00:09:23.710
So what we did was make it visible.
00:09:24.350 --> 00:09:40.200
Well, but the capacity presumably was hidden or lost by not having the right, as you say, visibility of what was actually happening and without the processes working as effectively as they could do.
00:09:40.840 --> 00:09:41.960
Yeah, exactly.
00:09:42.759 --> 00:09:52.759
So, yeah, I would say the learning is that I didn't put a lot of improvement, a lot of time into implementing tools.
00:09:53.480 --> 00:09:58.600
It went into getting people to a point where they actually wanted to change themselves.
00:09:59.240 --> 00:09:59.639
Yes.
00:10:00.279 --> 00:10:05.720
So I'd say, 90% of the time I spent there is that.
00:10:05.721 --> 00:10:14.600
And the rest is training and local, adaptations of Lean tools that they have to.
00:10:16.200 --> 00:10:20.360
They can take the theory that I give, but then they need to make it their own.
00:10:20.360 --> 00:10:21.000
In a way.
00:10:21.879 --> 00:10:24.539
I think that's an incredible statistic.
00:10:24.541 --> 00:10:30.940
You know, the idea that 90% of the effort and time was put into helping the people want to change.
00:10:30.941 --> 00:10:44.620
Because I, I can imagine other people looking at where they're spending their time and often it is a lot more on training and tools than the, the almost the psychology of the people.
00:10:45.500 --> 00:10:45.980
Yeah.
00:10:45.980 --> 00:10:57.539
Yeah, I remember back in the days when I'm working with McKinsey when on, on lean transformations in another company that I used to work for.
00:10:57.541 --> 00:11:10.940
And, and there you know, it was like 90, 90% lean tools, focus training and pushing through everything in like 1212 weeks.
00:11:11.899 --> 00:11:16.139
But we learned we, we didn't make any change like that.
00:11:16.140 --> 00:11:26.389
But after the McKinsey helped us to, with the theoretical part, we developed our own system based on that.
00:11:27.190 --> 00:11:33.950
And yeah, now I think that the way we work in Conrad, we say okay, we face it in waves.
00:11:33.951 --> 00:11:45.919
We say way one is to develop the local resources, developing themselves first and then we, we work hard and of course we work on improvement.
00:11:46.559 --> 00:11:54.399
But then it's followed by a wave 2 of 18 months and that's the local lean resources.
00:11:54.400 --> 00:12:01.360
Next development phase is to develop others which they work like train the trainer.
00:12:02.240 --> 00:12:16.330
So by this we have a 36 month transformation period to train local change agents and to make them into train the trainers also on lean.
00:12:16.331 --> 00:12:18.490
So yeah, that's how we work.
00:12:19.289 --> 00:12:25.450
And so a 36 month transformation, you know, three years.
00:12:25.451 --> 00:12:32.649
But through that you're seeing the sorts of results where you talked about for the, for what you saw in Sweden.
00:12:32.650 --> 00:12:40.230
So increasing volume, no backlog, better quality outputs, reduction in defects.
00:12:40.230 --> 00:12:48.950
And that is what you're being able to replicate location by location.
00:12:49.830 --> 00:12:50.509
Exactly.
00:12:50.510 --> 00:12:57.590
Yeah, that is what I talk about now is actually way one, it's 18 months.
00:12:58.230 --> 00:13:02.909
It's right in the middle of wave one and way two.
00:13:02.910 --> 00:13:04.830
So Sweden, they are in wave two.
00:13:04.831 --> 00:13:13.789
France, this is our second transformation, have been running for 18 months in July.
00:13:14.909 --> 00:13:19.389
So we are getting close to the end of wave one.
00:13:20.110 --> 00:13:23.070
So I can talk a little bit about France as well.
00:13:23.629 --> 00:13:24.909
Yeah, that would be interesting.
00:13:24.910 --> 00:13:28.750
Yeah, there it was similar but also different.
00:13:29.429 --> 00:13:34.870
I mean the managing director there, he realised quite early that he needed help.
00:13:36.070 --> 00:13:38.149
So they were open from the beginning.
00:13:38.710 --> 00:13:43.350
But even then change didn't happen immediately.
00:13:44.070 --> 00:13:58.799
So when it started with me having a meeting with him, just one on one and what we saw was we just looked at the PNL and, and then we saw a declining performance for years, changes in product mix.
00:14:00.159 --> 00:14:08.240
And when I went to the Gemba, I saw a factory that hadn't adapted to this change since 2017.
00:14:09.840 --> 00:14:15.039
People were working hard, a lot of effort was not creating value.
00:14:15.919 --> 00:14:32.240
So we, we started, tried to show that picture in diagnostics with trainings, pilot projects, strong lean support to get commitment that okay, this is what we see.
00:14:33.039 --> 00:14:34.480
Still it didn't move.
00:14:35.279 --> 00:14:38.559
I don't think because people were against it.
00:14:39.840 --> 00:14:43.519
But the organisation hadn't really changed how it was operating.
00:14:44.399 --> 00:14:52.169
So what I learned there is that even when people say they won't change, they often still sort of defend the old way.
00:14:53.929 --> 00:14:56.090
Especially if we tried before and.
00:14:57.129 --> 00:15:06.330
And or shall I say previous attempts, like in France, they have done perfect sort of lean transformations in the past.
00:15:07.370 --> 00:15:11.610
And I saw one pilot that was living still, but.
00:15:12.169 --> 00:15:16.090
But I could also see that it was perfect tool execution.
00:15:17.289 --> 00:15:20.809
So they had some experience from that in the past.
00:15:21.690 --> 00:15:29.610
So there the real shift it came when people started to personally experience a different way of working.
00:15:30.490 --> 00:15:37.210
So there we did the facilitation of the management team in workshops.
00:15:37.211 --> 00:15:50.460
So we tried to gather them all into a room and then ask them, okay, what needs to change in terms of looking at the PL and decreasing top line.
00:15:50.461 --> 00:15:54.500
But The vista was decreasing even more.
00:15:54.500 --> 00:16:05.860
So we actually created a plan, a roadmap for the management and then we requested them to go in their vertical.
00:16:05.860 --> 00:16:10.870
It's like R and D manager, sales manager, production manager and so on.
00:16:10.870 --> 00:16:21.070
And then do the catch ball with, with their own vertical and come back with a detailed version that you can live with out of this overall roadmap.
00:16:21.629 --> 00:16:35.389
So for, for example, working with the production leader, not only interest, but how he structured his day to have time at the Gamba, to have time for problem solving, time to support the team.
00:16:36.120 --> 00:16:39.399
And that really was the turning point there.
00:16:39.400 --> 00:16:42.279
That's when things really started to happen.
00:16:43.159 --> 00:16:46.519
And this was 2024, I'd say.
00:16:47.240 --> 00:16:51.320
Yeah, something started with the management team.
00:16:51.321 --> 00:17:04.868
They started realising that they had to change around Christmas 2024 and then the real change with the production leader came around Easter 2025.
00:17:05.509 --> 00:17:07.509
So it's interesting again because.
00:17:07.510 --> 00:17:14.950
So really the message here is that whilst tools are useful, it's not where you start.
00:17:15.509 --> 00:17:25.029
Where you need to start is the people wanting to change and to understand how to change and to.
00:17:25.030 --> 00:17:27.670
For them to have the emotional buy in.
00:17:27.671 --> 00:17:42.190
But most importantly, I'm hearing it's that leadership and management attention to the Gemba and what's happening and watching and listening and hearing that feedback.
00:17:43.630 --> 00:17:44.430
Exactly.
00:17:44.990 --> 00:17:45.349
Yeah.
00:17:45.351 --> 00:17:56.269
They have to see themselves and they have to genuinely sort of, they need the feeling that something have to change otherwise they will continue in the same way.
00:17:56.980 --> 00:17:57.259
Yes.
00:17:57.260 --> 00:18:07.539
And I noticed, I made a note when you were saying earlier about, you know, the people were working hard but their effort was not creating value.
00:18:07.540 --> 00:18:19.940
And I thought that was a great way of summing up what was going on there because in our experience, most People are working really hard, they're coming to work and they're really trying to do their best.
00:18:20.900 --> 00:18:23.140
They do, they do, they really do.
00:18:24.369 --> 00:18:34.089
With France again in 2023, I know our CEO said, yeah, but they have, 20% more in pipeline.
00:18:34.090 --> 00:18:39.729
They could deliver, but they work, they work overtime, they do whatever.
00:18:39.730 --> 00:18:48.450
But it seems that they cannot turn around and grow at the top line there, no matter how hard they work.
00:18:50.220 --> 00:18:58.700
So I Remember, I think 2023 ended up at 15 million euros turnover with a lot of stress.
00:18:58.701 --> 00:19:01.579
Every time I was there, I saw the management team.
00:19:02.380 --> 00:19:09.099
They came in early, they were the last ones to leave, maybe eight, nine o' clock in the evening.
00:19:09.980 --> 00:19:30.230
What they were doing, they were firefighting things from the missing system and trying to close the gaps with, themselves that actually the team should work, on before they went home.
00:19:30.869 --> 00:19:50.789
Everyone felt it was a stress to deliver 15 million euros in 2023, 2025, with the change of the production leader and everyone aligned, we actually delivered 30 million euros top line, but with, with no pressure.
00:19:50.790 --> 00:19:53.750
In a way, everyone felt more comfortable.
00:19:56.069 --> 00:20:06.309
Total Labour productivity is 30% better in 2025 than 2023 with a, much higher top line.
00:20:07.349 --> 00:20:12.650
Amazing, amazing, amazing results and such an interesting storey.
00:20:12.651 --> 00:20:13.210
Thank you.
00:20:13.211 --> 00:20:20.170
And so the, you know, when new things come along, I mean, AI being an example of that.
00:20:20.890 --> 00:20:28.569
Again, you're, what are you doing with the leadership team in order to sort of ensure that you're following those principles again?
00:20:29.450 --> 00:20:31.130
Yeah, we.
00:20:31.131 --> 00:20:37.930
I always like my lean team to be up to date, as up to date as possible.
00:20:37.931 --> 00:20:43.579
And I see AI, it's a way of being, being efficient.
00:20:45.579 --> 00:20:54.460
You can, process a lot of text, for instance, without missing out on details, if you know how to use it.
00:20:55.180 --> 00:20:56.380
So therefore I contact.
00:20:56.381 --> 00:21:07.390
Of course I contacted you pmi, because I believe in the, in this pdca, the miac, this methodology mixed with AI.
00:21:07.391 --> 00:21:18.990
If you just start using AI without knowing, or not working in a structured way with it, I believe it, it doesn't create the most value it can do.
00:21:20.589 --> 00:21:31.880
So, yeah, started with the questioning, do you have any AI training that you can support us with, especially the lean team?
00:21:33.400 --> 00:21:34.759
And you said, yes.
00:21:34.760 --> 00:22:06.109
And I came back and said, okay, I would like to involve our cto, our CTO runner, because he have to be aware of what my team can do, what they are capable of doing in all the business units, but also handle the risk, you know, the risk and of it being in defence industry, we have this compliance, strong compliance, so it needs to be managed.
00:22:06.111 --> 00:22:07.549
So we don't leak any.
00:22:09.230 --> 00:22:12.390
I don't want that we do anything wrong.
00:22:12.391 --> 00:22:14.390
And then they said, oh, let's forget AI.
00:22:14.391 --> 00:22:15.950
That's dangerous, you know.
00:22:15.951 --> 00:22:16.829
Right, sure.
00:22:17.549 --> 00:22:20.349
So he came along on the training.
00:22:20.351 --> 00:22:25.519
We started back in September and finished in March, was it?
00:22:26.400 --> 00:22:28.160
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:22:29.440 --> 00:22:40.720
So afterwards, we, have this weekly AI clinic with team where we exchange from dictionary business units what they are doing.
00:22:40.721 --> 00:22:42.799
Have they made any agents?
00:22:42.800 --> 00:22:43.920
How do we do it?
00:22:43.921 --> 00:22:53.880
Right now, they have mainly been focusing on, tools for, how shall I say, 5s, helpers, things like this.
00:22:53.881 --> 00:22:56.640
Or Lean implementation consultants.
00:22:56.641 --> 00:23:01.880
Or their own virtual assistant where they feed with our Lean models.
00:23:01.881 --> 00:23:05.319
Plus some of your material, actually, from PMI.
00:23:05.320 --> 00:23:08.119
So they have their personal assistant.
00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:16.680
Quite early on, we were already counting 40 agents in total.
00:23:16.681 --> 00:23:21.910
AI agents, not only from the Lean team, but, That's a lot already, I would say.
00:23:21.911 --> 00:23:22.269
Yeah.
00:23:22.270 --> 00:23:22.829
Quite early.
00:23:23.630 --> 00:23:28.630
And the CTO realised that now it's time to start managing those.
00:23:28.631 --> 00:23:29.630
So we.
00:23:29.631 --> 00:23:30.109
Yeah.
00:23:30.670 --> 00:23:33.230
What is the, English name, you know, for.
00:23:34.029 --> 00:23:35.869
I forgot the English name.
00:23:35.871 --> 00:23:36.269
Yeah.
00:23:36.269 --> 00:23:36.789
Governance.
00:23:36.790 --> 00:23:37.390
Thank you.
00:23:38.190 --> 00:23:39.029
That he had to.
00:23:39.030 --> 00:23:41.309
Now we have to focus on governance because.
00:23:41.310 --> 00:24:11.849
Yeah, and I think that's interesting, you know, you talk about your weekly clinics, the fact that your CTO has continued to join those whenever he can, and then is creating that link to your technology team and, to the leadership to ensure that you, as you say, you are able to create the value from using AI, but without the risk of jeopardising compliance.
00:24:11.851 --> 00:24:15.210
Which I think is a fantastic approach for you guys.
00:24:15.849 --> 00:24:16.890
Yeah, yeah.
00:24:16.891 --> 00:24:19.690
I feel it's working here really well.
00:24:19.691 --> 00:24:22.049
The Lean Team is great.
00:24:22.050 --> 00:24:26.450
They do great work on the ground every day.
00:24:26.451 --> 00:24:31.690
They coach, they challenge, they build trust with the people in the operation.
00:24:31.691 --> 00:24:36.650
But not only operation, also, you know, with the CTO.
00:24:37.539 --> 00:24:41.619
So they are present every day, working hard, which is good.
00:24:41.621 --> 00:24:43.940
And then at the same time, they.
00:24:43.941 --> 00:24:46.339
I would say they don't operate in a vacuum.
00:24:47.220 --> 00:24:51.140
So for them to succeed, a lot have to be in place.
00:24:51.141 --> 00:24:58.660
Alignment at the management level that I spend a lot of time on, setting the right priorities, trying to protect their time.
00:24:58.661 --> 00:25:01.859
And sometimes quite difficult decisions have to be made.
00:25:02.500 --> 00:25:04.809
Yes, that's how it is.
00:25:05.450 --> 00:25:05.930
Yeah.
00:25:06.490 --> 00:25:09.049
So that's what I'm trying to create that environment.
00:25:11.529 --> 00:25:14.809
So they can focus on the operation, basically.
00:25:16.089 --> 00:25:16.490
Yes.
00:25:16.490 --> 00:25:17.769
And create the success.
00:25:19.930 --> 00:25:21.130
Fantastic.
00:25:21.131 --> 00:25:26.569
Freda, thank you so much for your time today and for sharing how you're approaching this work.
00:25:26.570 --> 00:25:28.009
I really, really value it.
00:25:28.010 --> 00:25:29.130
Thank you so much.
00:25:29.131 --> 00:25:32.049
So, to everyone who's listened to this, Storey, thank you very much.
00:25:32.050 --> 00:25:34.009
I hope you've enjoyed this episode.
00:25:34.010 --> 00:25:35.190
Don't forget to subscribe.
00:25:35.191 --> 00:25:42.230
Subscribe, share, leave us a review. The more we grow this podcast, the better everybody's work becomes.
00:25:42.230 --> 00:25:47.750
And you can find more insights and resources at pmi.co.uk or follow us on LinkedIn.
00:25:48.390 --> 00:25:53.509
So, until next time, thank you again, Frode, and thank you for listening.
