Interview - Ethan Kavanagh - Digital creator

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Welcome to Forest.Chat,
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where we talk about individual endeavor in Western Australia, what it takes, what it means, and how you do it.
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I'm your host, Paul van der Mey, and in today's episode, we're talking with Ethan Kavanagh about being a digital creator.
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Ethan started his creation journey at about, 12 or 13 years old by learning the guitar and found a whole world of things to explore from there.
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Welcome to Forest.Chat,
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Ethan.
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Hey mate, how you going? I'm very well, thank you.
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Thanks for coming on the show.
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Oh, thanks for having us.
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It should be sh- this should be fun.
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I'm a, a little bit, concerned because my audio editing skills are, are far away from where yours are.
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So hopefully we can get it somewhere where, both of us can be happy with the episode.
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Oh, look, I'll give you all your credit, mate.
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You're doing very well if this is, uh, an entirely, solo project.
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that's one thing I do like about podcasts as well.
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I'll be honest, I can be a bit sort of, quick and easy with podcasts because it sort of is one of those things where it's such a long amount of time you're spending editing and listening.
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I, I also kinda like that it's one of those things where the attention to detail isn't so heavy because you're listening to a story for such a long period of time.
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If you're mixing music or producing, an audio track and you're talking with people in, you know, my industry and they go, "Oh, that guitar has a 400 hertz peak at You need to drop that by three decibels."
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And I'm thinking, "What?" So there's, there's attention to detail in podcasting, and then there's people that really have attention to detail.
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I, I am the former, so it, it, it's all good, mate.
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All right.
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So you go under the, uh, the handle of Noise Pilot, As a digital creator, what are you doing there? So I guess I've always found this hard to pin down 'cause I do so many different things.
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You know, I make music, I make podcasts, I write quizzes, I do live streams.
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I try to just, instead of being myself, I tried to make this big blanket thing for all the stuff I make, which is Noise Pilot.
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so yeah, I guess what I do is I just make, uh, like digital creator is a probably a good way to describe it, but I would say I specialize in audio.
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You know, for example, most of my time now is doing, sound design for a radio station.
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So that's, you know, my job I guess.
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But then Noise Pilot is, is my thing.
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You know, the things that I'm really proud of or the things that I really, or what I use to help other people creating, with editing or getting their stuff uploaded.
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Noise Pilot's my thing, I guess.
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So looking at Noise Pilot, when I look up on socials and that sort of thing, I do see that a couple of the podcasts that are on list are also on my list for people to interview, so we're doing different things with them.
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can you give us a bit of a rundown of, what you do in the podcast space then? We'll keep a, we'll put a little wall around that and, and talk about podcasting for a bit Yeah, sure.
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at first I kinda wanted Noise Pilot to be a, um, a network for WA creators.
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So I do have a couple of other creators that I essentially host, on the Noise Pilot network.
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you know, we've got some improv comedy guys, Can We Add Arnie? which is really good fun.
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I've helped sort of produce and do music design and stuff with them.
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We've got, Social Snowball.
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but I also, make my own projects, which I'm super proud of.
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Steady Breath is one.
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I make music to facilitate square breathing exercises and made that into a podcast format.
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I also have, recently brought back a project I did a few years ago called, The Perth Tourist.
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We got a Kickstarter campaign, successfully funded for two grand to make some additional episodes of that.
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So they're actually audio described walking tours of all these great locations around WA.
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Um, and we also did a holiday last year in Ireland, and I snuck an episode in over there.
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So that's a really pr- those two are my real, pride and joy, those two podcasts.
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Yeah.
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That's the, uh, the Steady Breaths and the, the Perth Tourist it's Yeah, that right? that's the one.
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Yep That's the one, yeah.
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Fantastic.
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So I'll make sure we got some links to those so people can have a listen to, to just what those are.
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So, I also saw an interesting little, snippet was, a youngster approached you, asking you what on earth that thing was It's been a while since I made that.
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that was from, recording The Perth Tourist.
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So, um, I have this little portable recorder.
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doesn't have a camera on it.
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It is a very unusual object to see out in the open.
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It was just sitting on, you know, a bench.
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And of course a kid goes, "What the hell is that?" and I was like, "Well, fair enough, but also, why would you run over and touch it?" I did find it kind of funny.
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I was like, it's only, you know, it's not like he could do any damage to it, but I was like, "Hey, I'm recording."
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I w- I was also trying to go, "Do you wanna say something? Do you wanna, like, be part of the story?" And he was like, "Oh, no, I, I feel like I've done the wrong thing by touching the, the mic."
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I was like, "Oh, damn, that's, that, that could've been a moment."
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It did look like one of those funny little things that, that go on when you're with the Perth tourist, you're out and about, aren't you? So Yeah.
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that was probably the first time really, someone had sort of got involved like that, I think because I'm really quite closed off with the, with the staff there and, you know, it, it was actually really unusual to have, sort of an interaction like that.
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While I was a bit disappointed that the kid didn't, you know, come in and say something quickly for a laugh, when you don't have a camera, people open up a lot more, I find.
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I've done the, you know, I used to work in, on a TV show a while ago and was on the camera, and these big burly tradie blokes would come in and say, "Oh, look, I'm, you know, Jack the Lad, and I'm very extroverted in my, you know, um, shop," or whatever, or, you know, uh, at my workplace.
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You put them in front of a camera and they, they become a lot smaller.
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you don't have such an intimidation when there's not a camera there because you can forget about a microphone.
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I think because we put too much focus on it, it would got a bit overwhelming, but if you had that kid there for maybe another 10 minutes just chatting away, it becomes a lot less intimidating because it can pick up what you're saying without you having to look at it or acknowledge it.
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That's one thing I really love about sound, is that it's so, um, so much more fly on the wall.
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It's not so explicitly, "Hey, you have to appear and perform and, or at least, you know, do your hair up."
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audio is one of those things where it's like y- You, you can't really hide so much when you get into a conversation.
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You can put a, a front on or a voice on, but that does get tiring, and eventually the real voice will come out especially if you try to, like, put a voice on, like an accent or, or something like that, it, goes away fairly quickly for, for the vast majority of people.
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Unless you, unless you are very practiced at it Mm.
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The, probably the harder thing is, is that you actually have to get used to at least projecting or enunciating better because people who aren't experienced in front of a mic, you actually realize that they're very inside themselves and, and maybe their conversations are a lot quieter than they realize.
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And I listen to myself back or am very self-aware of myself and, you know, being in radio in front of mics, I realize I project a lot more and I do speak a lot clearer, and it is an environment that sort of builds that muscle in you.
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it's quite funny because, you know, I'll go into the radio station and they all hear my real country twang.
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They think I has, had this really ocker accent.
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But then I go to my hometown or I come back to my mates and they say, "Yeah, you sound really radio and really posh."
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it, it, it is really weird like that, you know, how people just notice these things in your voice Yeah, I to Holland and they have a very distinct or different accent, I guess, when they speak English to, to what we have.
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even when I came back, I still felt like I was still attempting to talk like they talk.
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And, and as much as I tried not to do it, it, it actually took quite a bit of work to not do it Oh, absolutely.
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It's, it's the company you keep, and you, you try to empathize with people maybe and, you know, try and match their way of speaking, and it, it, it eventually takes a hold of you Absolutely.
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you talked about, working with radio and doing sound design.
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How do you go about that? That is a really interesting question because most people who do what I do as a, you know, sound design in radio struggle to describe what the job actually is to, to people because I suppose radio's this really, you know, strange little place that, you know, you might listen to it, but you don't really zoom in and see what's going on in there.
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You know, you got the people talking on the mics, you got the commercials, and then the stuff that I do, which is kind of in between that, which is the sound design for, you know, picking the music and making the little bits around the show, promoting it and editing all the little highlights and stuff like that.
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it's a lot of just, um, being a jack-of-all-trades for, you know, your sound design, skills and things like that.
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It's a really fun, fast-paced sort of way to work.
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you know, but at the same time, it's very opposite to where my passions lie in that sort of longer form stuff or the really personalized creative stuff in, you know, making music or, um, just like I said when I wrote quizzes, picking another skill set to go on, and that's writing and, and producing something in a totally different medium.
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so radio is one of those places where you get to do a whole lot in a really fast There's two ways that the radio stations work, isn't it? They're either doing it, like, in person and live, and then of course they're mixing in songs and, and that sort of thing, or they're doing it pre-recorded.
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Is that...
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Are they the, the two main ways that they operate? I mean, yeah, I mean, I would say it's primarily live and there are some, you know, pre-recorded sections as well.
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yeah, yeah, I guess so Have you been involved with any of the community radio stations? Yeah.
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Uh, The Perth Tourist, the, uh, podcast I mentioned earlier, was originally a uni project that I did for, uh, Vision Australia Radio.
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so that is a project that I've been really passionate about because, I'm not blind, I'm not visually impaired.
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I've never been part of that community or been around anyone, in that community, but they just welcomed me in with really open arms and, and helped foster this idea of doing these audio-guided tours.
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So I've got a really, you know, big soft spot for that, uh, station and how they helped us out to make such an amazing project like that, which is why I'm really proud to have, you know, reached back out to them and they said, "Yeah, let's, bring this back in some way if we can and help you to do that."
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And, you know, th-they did, which is really great Is there a that you would do for that audience compared to, I'll say a regular seeing audience? Yeah, I, I think so.
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I really try to put, that specific community first.
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You know, the three episodes that I made now are currently available on, Spotify through the Noise Pilot Network.
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But I didn't make it for my audience, I made it for, for their audience.
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And there's an interesting philosophy about that, I guess, because it is an audio medium already.
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it is already accepting of, of everyone, I guess.
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but I really wanted to make sure that I, was very deliberate in how I scripted things because what I do in it is, A, a form of audio description, which is what I'm experiencing on the tour, and, writing up scripts to sort of, paint a mental picture of what's happening.
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I'm trying to use words other than see here, because it's not just about using your eyes, it's about what you experience on the tour, and I, I use that word really deliberately, for example, because I didn't-- I listen back to episodes from the past where I go, "We're standing on a green floor."
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And it's like, well, is, is the fact that it's green important? Would the texture of the floor be more important? Would the, um, where it's leading to be more important? what can we-- what can I lean on other than sight to describe what's happening here? And in all fairness, that just makes for an overall better experience, I think, um, in, in the product.
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Sometimes you can't, overcome that.
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There are things that need to be visually described, so you try.
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It can be difficult.
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You, you try to find a way, but you always lean towards those things that, are really interesting for your other senses.
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You can imagine what something might smell like.
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You can definitely get an idea of what something feels like.
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and you can use sound effects as well to get an idea of how things sound.
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Even a reverb in a room can give you an idea of how big a space is, just from when you're interviewing someone, you can sort of hear the echo between their words and things like that.
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So, I really try to think of it as an audio, first thing and, and going through the list of the other senses as opposed to just seeing.
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so I really put that in, in, in, in mind as much as I can, knowing the limitation is, is that I'm, very new to that sort of, form of content, you know, compared to people who've been watching, movies with an audio description for a very long time or are working as audio describers.
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So I've, I've very-- I try to think really hard about it so that I'm, I'm doing that community a, a good service first and, you know, the people that might listen to my podcast that aren't blind or have low vision also will enjoy it, knowing that that's what they're expecting.
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There's people that might think, "Why wouldn't you show the visuals?" And I've been asked that before, and I would say, "Well, if you want a, a visual tourism show, you could go watch Getaway."
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Or, you know, something like that.
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this is a very different way of experiencing a tour that includes a different variety of, you know, people from people, you know, who are just interested in tourism to people who are blind, have low vision, or people who are just, wanting a, a good podcast to listen to.
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I would hope that what I've made there is, you know, ticks a box for someone I'm sure that it does.
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I know the difference between doing video and audio because I record people's oral histories, and I focus on audio recording in that space.
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And the reason is that there's a, visual disconnect between what the person is talking about, like the point of time in their life that they're talking about, what you're actually seeing.
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And of course, once you prompt a person with a visual, then you've locked their imagination into that visual.
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By using audio, forcing the listener to go back in and consider all the things that are around what the person is saying from their imagination, and it's much more engaging That's what I try to do as well in, not over-detailing.
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I wanna underarm someone a ball, and they can move to where they need to be to catch it.
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like we did a birds of prey experience in Ireland, I wouldn't say, "Right, we've got a hawk here.
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It's this color.
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It's about, you know, it's, it's this tall.
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It is, you know, standing exactly like this."
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I would say, something like, this, bird is flying through the air," or something a bit more broad so that someone could paint a mental image, of what, what they wanna see as opposed to what is objectively what I saw, which really means nothing if, it gets in the way of a good story or, gets in the way of someone immersing themselves in the experience Yeah, it's fascinating, isn't it? The, the different way that you present something can really make a, a big difference to the audience Ethan, what does it take you to do what you're doing with Noise Pilot? I decided to sort of take a big leap with Noise Pilot.
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I was working in radio for a long time and thought, "I'm kind of ready for a change."
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The problem, in my opinion, was when I was working in radio, I was working in the creative industry as a full-time job with a salary, which is very secure, but also scratches the itch of being a creative in the industry.
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I was like: Oh man, there isn't, like, a job like that somewhere else.
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You know, I can't just go, "Oh, I'm just gonna be a full-time, podcaster."
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There's only, like, four or five jobs, and they might want to g- you to go to Sydney for that.
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I was like: Well, I, I love WA.
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We tell really good stories here.
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I'm good at what I do.
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I'm just gonna have to jump and see what happens.
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Which I can't believe I did it.
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I just left my job with no leads, no, um, backups, no anything like that, with just some idea that I'd done enough, that I was going to do something else, and it was going to work out.
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And for a couple of years, it really did, you know? I was just obsessed enough and determined enough that I could try and make it work in whatever way.
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I was saying yes to all sorts of things.
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You know, I was working on a, a podcast that talked about Silicon Valley and, you know, um, tech startups.
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I'd never worked in that, space before, but I figured it out.
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like I said, I, did quizzes.
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I hadn't really been a public speaker or considered myself to do that, and I was like: I'll just keep doing that.
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It's bringing money in.
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I'm, I'm gonna do it.
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the Kickstarter that I did to raise some money for this, podcast, I'd never done that.
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I didn't have a whole lot of listeners, but I knew I could try and sell this and, and really get people on board with what I was doing.
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And I just found ways to, keep doing it.
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and I was just determined enough to try and obsessed enough to, you know, keep going, I guess.
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that's amazing.
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So what do you see as the highlights in what you've done? oh, that's a really good question.
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I think definitely, uh, The Tourist Kickstarter, being able to actually fund a project.
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I also was really proud of, I think the audience we generated through live streaming.
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I'd never tried that before.
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I was always someone who was audio first.
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and I noticed people, you know, going live on TikTok, and I was like, "Oh, maybe I could try that."
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I have a better mic than most people just on their phones.
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I have a camera.
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I can set up cool graphics and stuff.
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Why don't I host a quiz here? why don't I do my breathing exercises with people on here? And it really worked, and people really appreciated it, and I was like, "Well, maybe I have more skills than I realize."
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So that was a real highlight.
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taking these projects that I'd spent years figuring out how to- what to do with them and, finding just creative solutions and ways to share them with people in, in ways I would have never thought.
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So it was a...
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That, that would be the overarching highlight, is just, using these skills that I've built up over time in ways that I'd, I'd might not have had the confidence to or would have thought was, was possible for me.
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but I just had a crack and it, and it worked out, and it makes you realize what, what you can do versus what you're doing now.
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Like, you can always make the leap sounds like it took a lot of you to actually make that happen Yeah.
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Uh, it's a really tough one because, um, you know, I, I think I was at the point in my career in, in radio where I was feeling like, I wasn't improving, I wasn't getting better, I wasn't seeing where the next step was, and maybe I was like, "Well, I'm-- I feel like I'm maybe going back," and losing a lot of confidence and, and feeling like I don't have, you know, the gumption to go and do something great.
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And then I thought, "Well, maybe I don't need to do something great.
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I just need to do something."
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so I, you know, took a gamble and whether or not it worked out or is still working out, like I'm back in radio now.
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I don't see that as a defeat, but I do see it as, those two years where I just went and thought, "I've really gotta dig deep here and, and find out what else I can do," because, you know, I, I love, working in the creative industry, but I really do and realized this over those two years, value security and, you know, family and friends and personal time and it's like how, how do I do all of this in this industry? It's really difficult.
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It's not like a regular job, you know, where, you know, you just get to rock up 9:00 to 5:00 and do your thing and, you know, maybe there's another job around the corner if you're, um, if you have a trade or, you know, you have a skill set that, you know, is in your town.
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There's not like a whole lot of those sort of things.
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You have to build them yourself in, in the creative industry.
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And that's why I'm glad I spent those two years, and I'm still doing now, finding ways to keep myself in this industry and finding those opportunities and putting myself in those situations where I'm, I'm learning and growing I guess in the radio station environment, there's the ladder, which I imagine would very quickly take you out of the hands-on creative side of things if you were to go that way.
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Like, you could potentially do multiple different radio stations, but, it sounds like each station needs quite a lot of work to make those things happen.
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so it's not necessarily that one person can cover like a whole suite of radio stations doing that creative side because there's, there's just too much.
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If they're transmitting 24/7, they'd, they'd just have an insatiable need for it, wouldn't they? It's one of those things where, you know, a a team of a lot of people makes it happen.
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and that's one of the backwards things with what we're doing.
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You know, a lot of our creative projects, are done ourselves.
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You know, you've got the person like me who sits there and makes it, and can make a great product.
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But then in those, you know, two years where I was just doing my own projects, I also had to be the business guy for myself.
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So that's another, I would say another big highlight for me is just learning what it means to run a business, what it takes, and how you can't just sit there and make things all day because there's no one on the other side paying for it.
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So it's one of those things where it does take up a lot of your, your time and your effort to, um, to do it all, and you kind of feel, you know, like I said, now that I'm, I'm back in radio and, and working in with projects with other team members, you realize how valuable it is to work with other people and, how amazing it is when there are several people trying to work at the same thing.
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and really comparatively what it takes to do something really awesome entirely by yourself.
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It's, it's, it's, it's difficult.
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Yeah Yeah, I find with this podcast, like there's a lot of aspects to it and it's-- this is not a financially rewarding podcast, so I haven't, I haven't even got that aspect of the podcast to worry about.
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even, up with the, content can be quite a struggle Yeah.
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Yeah, and that's the thing.
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It's, the thing that you wanna be doing is, is building the thing and spending all that time doing it, and that's the enjoyable part.
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And then the difficult part is finding a way to make money off it, make it sustainable, make it something that doesn't burn you out, and that's, the side of things that I'm really interested in and like spending time on.
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but if y- you're sort of pulling at two strings there, where you're-- when you wanna be spending time doing the business and the marketing and the, all that stuff, the thing still needs to be made.
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Or while you're making the thing, you're like, "Oh man, there's gonna come a point where I have to sell it and market it."
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And it's, you've-- it's a real tug of war when, when, when you're, when you're by yourself Absolutely.
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So do you have, creative goals going forward? Mm, I am not at this point in my career anymore where I'm, I'm chasing.
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I feel like I've spent so much of my life just chasing the next thing and the next thing and the next thing.
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okay, I need to get the next job.
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I need this project to be successful.
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I need to learn these skills and I was const- and I, I eventually got to a point where, you know, I just sorta went, "Oh my God, I'm 30 now.
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I've been spending a lot of time chasing.
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do I need to keep doing that? Do I start looking for a bit of stability? Do I sort of rest for a bit?" I guess that's the phase that I'm at now.
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I still love what I'm doing and still have that desire to succeed, but I also kinda feel like, you know, if, um, this is part of my life but I, you know, spend more of my time earning money doing something else, am I gonna be too upset? Maybe not, because I've got friends, I've got family, and, you know, I, I feel secure.
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So I guess it's, I'm at a real crossroads right now where it's, you know, figuring out what that next creative project is to keep me going.
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what, is gonna be the thing that takes up most of your time in the next 10 years? Is it creative media? Is it some other job altogether? at the moment I'm-- I think this is the first time in my life where I've kinda felt okay with, either the uncertainty or this looming fear that's always there that it's, you're not always gonna get to do this.
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You know, it's, people might not wanna hear from you.
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you know, uh, my job, I might not have it anymore, and I might not be able to get another one in this industry.
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So it's like, well, is that okay? And for a whole lot of time it wasn't, and now I'm kinda like, well, I've learnt enough, I've got enough skills, I've got so many avenues that I feel like it, it'll, it'll be okay.
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So I guess that's my goal is to just keep feeling like that, just keep feeling like it's gonna be okay and I'm gonna...
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I'm resourceful enough and I've done enough and I've got the skills to just, continue feeling comfortable with, with things When you say comfortable, are you...
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that because you have confidence in your capabilities? I think so.
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I, I, it's not compla- uh, it's not complacency so much.
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I know that if I wanna keep doing this, I've gotta work at it, and I, I enjoy doing that, and that's something I'm, I'm still very keen to do.
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But it's more comfortable in going, I don't feel like I need to go into what I'm doing next to learn.
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I'm, I've, I've learned it.
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I c- I can, I can do it.
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I think I've got what I need to, to do the thing that I, uh, whatever comes next, whatever is asked of me, I can, I can do that.
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That's where I feel comfort is I can keep learning, but if I, if there is no more learning to do, then, you know, I can, I can make the next thing work.
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What about things that, upset the Apple cart, like maybe AI? Does that have an impact on what you do? Um, I guess I don't know yet.
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It could.
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It, it, it's something that, when I see it, like there's a lot of people-- Like you see a video of it, for example, online and, and there's millions of likes on it, and you look at the comments and a lot of people are just like, "This is just, you know, crap."
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There's a lot of people that really are still rejecting it.
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There's still people that prefer the human thing.
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it's something that I c- I just try not to spend a whole lot of time on because, you know, as much as we could argue back and forth, I've, I've still gotta make something really awesome if I wanna be part of this.
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It's not whether I'm competing with AI, it's whether or not I can keep doing this.
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so I, I try to, like I try to use it sometimes.
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I might use it for, for notes or brainstorming or things like that.
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I'm not against, it all together.
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But, um, it's one of those things where I try not to think too hard philosophically about it because whether it was there or not, I still want to make the next thing or what's in my head now.
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I know that's a really tough one because I probably don't spend enough time on that subject compared to other people that, that are really tackling AI Or really threatened by it is Hmm.
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the other element.
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So I know that in the audio industry they, there is a lot goes on, like what I do AI-based transcriptions and, when you say people push back on it, I look at those and I go, "They just take so much fixing," but my typing speed is nowhere near as good as theirs.
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Yeah.
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Uh, look, and for things like that, it is actually really useful.
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It's, it's another, it's a tool for, people like us to use.
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if you can...
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Like for example, I'm looking for, you know, highlights or, really good moments in things to go and look back on.
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if they happened three, four months ago, it's difficult to just go and find if you're the only guy that was listening or knew what was going on at the time.
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Whereas a transcription i- is a very useful tool for finding what you need and when.
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So there are certain, things where it's been super useful, and then you, you know, see other things where people are making full songs out of it or full videos.
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And I don't know, there's, there's some people that find it funny, but it just doesn't have this stickiness to it like, um, like a really good movie or a good song.
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that's a- an opinion now that's gonna change in 10 minutes.
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Yes.
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AI does generate the average thing, not the exciting thing Hmm.
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Yeah, maybe.
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Yeah So Ethan, if someone wanted to get into doing digital creative work like you do, uh, how would they go about it? I have a very different answer now from when I first started as well.
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I feel like I'm a very different person from when I was in the thick of my developing my career.
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You know, I'd give people, you know, audio tips or, bits and pieces like that, or how to do this or not do that, or, ugh.
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No.
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No, no, I don't do that anymore.
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Um, I just say, "Just do it.
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It doesn't matter if it's crap, doesn't matter if, um, no one's listening.
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It doesn't matter if, you don't know this thing for that.
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finish something and build a body of work and get enjoyment out of making Spending all your time making it good at when you're first starting is exhausting and miserable, and it makes you wanna pack it in.
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And, not being so self-conscious, I think, is the way to go forward.
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Like, I look back at my 20-year-old self making these little minute long loops and demos, and I would say to them, you know, "Why are you deleting them a- after a week? Why can't they stay there?" Or, "Why don't you finish them?" or like, doesn't matter if it's crap or good or whatever, just finish them.
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Keep your body of work.
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Just keep building something.
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People might find you eventually.
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It's a lot harder to do when you delete and start again, and then your only digital footprint is what you made three months ago, when you could have been embracing the things that you were making when you were learning and have a body of work that's 10 years old and could-- and people could see your trajectory, and you would be then a digital creator.
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Not that you're not.
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You can slap that tag on you whenever you like, by the way.
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you know, I see it in my younger brother, for example.
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He's-- was doing the same thing, making these cool little loops.
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I was like, "Cool.
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Where are the lyrics? What's the next thing you can add to this? How can you complete it?" And he's got these instrumental things.
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He's kept them.
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He's got songs with lyrics in them and full tracks that he's got, and this full body of work at the age of, you know, 20, 22 odd.
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And it's like, man, I wish I had that many songs at 22.
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I probably did, but they're not there anymore.
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I wouldn't know where they are.
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My only, um, you know, thing as a digital creator is Noise Pilot, but it could have been so much more.
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Not that it's a regret, but it's something I really push people to do now is be cringe, be crap, be all of this, but hang on to it.
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You're gonna wanna see it later, and maybe other people will too Yeah, that's interesting.
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00:33:09,439.1301121 --> 00:33:26,582.1998801
I worked with the government and it seemed they had a throwaway mentality where basically anything that was done more than like six months ago was, out of date and totally irrelevant when in fact maybe one or two words became irrelevant.
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00:33:27,542.2008801 --> 00:33:38,304.8935851
And they were very quick to, dismiss anything that had been done any real time ago, you know? So it was quite, strange.
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00:33:38,304.8945851 --> 00:33:48,591.1366626
But that, that massive body of work that they had, Look, that's something I will put my hand up and say straight away.
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00:33:49,254.5528719 --> 00:33:50,604.5528719
I hear it all the time.
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00:33:50,614.5528719 --> 00:33:57,264.5528719
You know, I can look back and go, "I remember making that," or I can hear what I made, and I'm like, "Oh, I'm not gonna actually hear it again."
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00:33:57,344.5528719 --> 00:34:06,192.3335532
It's very different, it being in your mind and being able to go and actually find it and click on it and go, "Oh my God, it's here, and other people can see it too."
283
00:34:06,232.3335532 --> 00:34:21,12.3459868
How profound is that? that's something I think maybe we take for granted Absolutely we've been talking about how do you do it, and you talked about the need to actually go through and complete things.
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00:34:21,892.3459868 --> 00:34:37,912.6783201
Are there any, courses or that sort of thing that you suggest people get involved with taking up? I really love TikTok and YouTube because you can really hyper-obsess over things and fall down rabbit holes for free.
285
00:34:38,502.6793201 --> 00:34:42,952.6793201
and I think that's the way to go, particularly if you're starting out and if you're unsure.
286
00:34:43,456.0126535 --> 00:35:03,16.0146535
you can be, you can be convinced to spend a lot of money early on, when you're unsure of whether it's something you wanna do or if it's rewarding and it's, you know, one of those things where, um, you know, we can go and grab the thing to do the thing for way cheaper than the course.
287
00:35:03,826.0136535 --> 00:35:09,916.0136535
why not just go and get the microphone? Why not just go get the camera and, muck around? That's how a lot of these people...
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00:35:10,526.0146535 --> 00:35:19,499.3469868
There, there's a very good chance the person doing the course did that You know what I mean? it's one of those things where, it's just worth having a crack at.
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00:35:19,499.3469868 --> 00:35:27,489.3469868
You might be getting a course from someone who's had success doing it, but success is so much further away from making the thing.
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00:35:27,959.3499868 --> 00:35:36,429.3479868
Like, um, getting results is so much further down the track than where what they're trying to teach you, which is just how to get started.
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00:35:36,769.3479868 --> 00:35:53,523.6813201
And maybe that's one of those things where if you just start, you'll make something completely new and interesting or, or you won't, and you figure out how to make the thing you actually wanna make over time if it's something you enjoy and wanna keep doing Yeah, very good advice there.
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00:35:53,613.6813201 --> 00:35:58,623.6813201
The get in and do it Hmm side of things is, uh, is very important.
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00:35:58,993.6813201 --> 00:36:15,278.6813201
You can do a great deal even just with your phone Yeah, and I look u- I use my phone quite often for things because it's like, well, if I set up a camera for three hours and try to light things properly, I'm gonna get sick of this and I'm gonna pack it in.
294
00:36:15,742.0146535 --> 00:36:19,232.0146535
whereas if I get the phone there, it might not look as good, but it's done.
295
00:36:19,642.0146535 --> 00:36:20,322.0146535
It's there.
296
00:36:20,432.0136535 --> 00:36:21,162.0136535
I did it.
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00:36:21,502.0136535 --> 00:36:22,422.0126535
you can't say I didn't.
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00:36:22,835.3469868 --> 00:36:28,115.3459868
whereas I could jump up and down to the high heavens, "Oh, I was about to film it and I had the camera and..."
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00:36:30,325.3459868 --> 00:36:34,68.3469868
So what? If it didn't happen, it didn't happen.
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00:36:34,97.3469868 --> 00:36:34,977.3469868
Exactly, yeah.
301
00:36:34,977.3469868 --> 00:36:40,40.6803201
And I'm a re- I just say to pe- like, you know, my wife come to me and said, "Oh, my mate wants to start a podcast.
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00:36:40,40.6803201 --> 00:36:43,620.6803201
Like, what's your advice?" And 20 years ago, I'd have been doing cartwheels.
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00:36:43,620.6803201 --> 00:36:44,840.6803201
Like, "I can't wait to talk about this."
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00:36:45,100.6793201 --> 00:36:48,510.6803201
Whereas now I'm like, "Oh, just do it.
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00:36:48,640.6803201 --> 00:36:51,60.6803201
Go, go play out in the paddock.
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00:36:51,60.6803201 --> 00:36:52,380.6793201
If you hit the fence, come back to me."
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00:36:55,150.6793201 --> 00:37:00,654.6803201
You know? work out the, uh, technical issues and no, we can't undelete it Yeah, exactly.
308
00:37:02,377.6803201 --> 00:37:10,727.6803201
certainly setting up this podcast because the current set of questions I use are not what I originally came up with for the podcast.
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00:37:11,108.6803201 --> 00:37:18,137.6793201
Hmm And I spoke to people about that original idea, no one had any idea what they were gonna get.
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00:37:18,724.6803201 --> 00:37:21,571.0136535
Hmm So, never made an episode.
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00:37:21,591.0126535 --> 00:37:30,761.0126535
It was just like just talking about, what I was setting up, was like, okay, I won't even go down that track.
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00:37:31,681.0136535 --> 00:37:40,461.0116535
I need to think up something different, which is when I came up with the, the questions that I ask now, and I think that's, that's fared a lot better.
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00:37:40,831.0136535 --> 00:37:56,676.6803201
People actually, understand more what the podcast is about Uh, would you say that the questions are simpler than your first idea or? They provide a framework, the first idea didn't Yeah, sure.
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00:37:56,726.6803201 --> 00:37:57,126.6803201
Yeah.
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00:37:57,836.6803201 --> 00:38:00,887.6803201
It does make things a lot easier Yeah, that's right.
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00:38:01,187.6803201 --> 00:38:07,297.6803201
I'm a pretty good systems person, so like working out the systems, I can do that stuff.
317
00:38:08,424.3469868 --> 00:38:23,211.0146535
having the set of questions, which I have softened, a lot, 'cause if you notice, I haven't necessarily asked every question that I've put on the list, but, we've talked about it, so now I'm a little more flexible with...
318
00:38:24,511.0136535 --> 00:38:33,291.0136535
You know, as long as the information gets covered, you know, I don't necessarily have to ask the question, but the intent and the direction is there.
319
00:38:33,291.0136535 --> 00:38:35,11.0156535
Yeah.
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00:38:35,11.0156535 --> 00:38:35,371.0156535
Yeah.
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00:38:36,191.0146535 --> 00:38:40,221.0146535
my original idea was sort of like, oh, just airy fairy.
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00:38:40,639.3479868 --> 00:38:58,398.2288338
Makes it, yeah, easier for people to actually, prepare themselves a little bit There is that as well, yes Ethan, what does it mean to you, your family, or the community that you're able to be a digital creator? I think it really, surprised everyone, including me.
323
00:38:58,548.2288338 --> 00:39:11,928.2288338
You know, I went to a private school and the expectation was you would become a doctor or a chiropractor or a, a dentist or an engineer or something like that, and I said, "I'm gonna go and do an arts degree," and a lot of people would think that's insane.
324
00:39:12,391.4016566 --> 00:39:17,371.4026566
I, when I first got there, thought it was a bit insane as well, but then I was like, "Well, I'm here.
325
00:39:17,441.4026566 --> 00:39:18,131.4016566
I'm enjoying this.
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00:39:18,131.4016566 --> 00:39:19,71.4026566
I really wanna do it.
327
00:39:19,171.4026566 --> 00:39:22,221.4026566
I've gotta throw a massive, massive punch at this."
328
00:39:22,731.4016566 --> 00:39:33,765.1676577
and I did, and, not only was I getting really good marks and making really good stuff, but I was really convincing myself that, look, I might not be making, uh, you know, hit music.
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00:39:33,815.1676577 --> 00:39:52,295.1696577
I might not be, um, working on a film set in LA, but there's gotta be something out there for me that keeps me in this industry, that keeps me around it so I can, you know, keep the ball afloat and, you know, find a way to have this be part of my life in a really big way, and it did in the end.
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00:39:52,505.1696577 --> 00:40:00,158.175001
you know, whether it was, playing covers in the pub, you know, I'm not wanting to, you know, make my life be other people's music.
331
00:40:00,158.177001 --> 00:40:12,160.4081416
I want to write my own music, but I can go out and play and get better and, the other thing when I graduated, The day after I got my award papers, I started a job in making commercials for a radio station.
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00:40:13,440.4051416 --> 00:40:20,510.3981416
Would have never thought, that's something I'd wanna do or I'd have a passion for, or I'd go, "Well, that's not, you know, making music.
333
00:40:20,510.3981416 --> 00:40:21,10.3971416
Forget it."
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00:40:21,10.3971416 --> 00:40:26,240.4021416
I was like, "No, that's me behind a computer dealing with sound design, sound effects.
335
00:40:26,240.4021416 --> 00:40:30,30.4071416
This is a legitimate, place for me to get paid and get my flying hours up.
336
00:40:30,30.4071416 --> 00:40:30,980.4061416
Of course, I'm gonna do it."
337
00:40:31,730.4061416 --> 00:40:38,476.7316975
I guess it was one of those things where it means a lot to me that, I wanted to be in this industry somehow.
338
00:40:38,496.7356975 --> 00:40:45,66.7326975
I wanted to be a musician, or I wanted to be a, you know, one of those guys, and the fact that I got to go...
339
00:40:45,116.7316975 --> 00:40:47,926.7316975
I'm still getting to go and do that, it, it does mean a lot.
340
00:40:48,466.7376975 --> 00:40:55,466.7296975
And I think it means a lot because also at the end of the day, I wasn't talked out of it a whole lot either.
341
00:40:55,746.7356975 --> 00:41:01,326.7376975
There wasn't people saying, "You shouldn't do this," or, "You should quit now," or anything like that.
342
00:41:01,424.0836753 --> 00:41:03,154.0906753
my family just went, "Yep, all right.
343
00:41:03,284.0836753 --> 00:41:04,134.0936753
You know what you're doing."
344
00:41:04,674.0836753 --> 00:41:09,424.0906753
That was always the scariest thing they ever said because it meant that they had no idea what to say to me.
345
00:41:09,744.0906753 --> 00:41:11,764.0926753
They still say it to me now, and they say, "Oh, you know what you're doing."
346
00:41:11,764.0946753 --> 00:41:13,464.0816753
That's just them giving up on giving me advice.
347
00:41:13,764.0946753 --> 00:41:16,64.0846753
But thank God that's what they say to me.
348
00:41:16,64.0846753 --> 00:41:18,494.0876753
They don't go the other way and say, "This is too scary.
349
00:41:18,494.0906753 --> 00:41:19,244.0946753
You should stop."
350
00:41:19,674.0836753 --> 00:41:29,944.0876753
They just go, "Oh, this is so con- I can't understand for the life of me what you're doing, why are you going for this career choice, but, eh, you know what you're doing."
351
00:41:30,404.0946753 --> 00:41:37,424.0946753
And, you know, I guess there's been a lot of trust in myself from other people that it was gonna work out somehow.
352
00:41:38,10.1012201 --> 00:41:38,480.1012201
which is great.
353
00:41:38,510.1012201 --> 00:41:46,211.2156542
Even when I left, my first, you know, radio job to no leads or anything like that, no, I've-- as far as I know, they might have been doing it behind their backs.
354
00:41:46,841.2146542 --> 00:41:52,421.2146542
I would- wouldn't blame them, but they might have been sa- no one had said to me, "That was silly of you to do that.
355
00:41:52,441.2156542 --> 00:41:55,331.2156542
Why would you leave your job? You have got nothing to go to.
356
00:41:55,341.2146542 --> 00:41:57,721.2156542
What are, what are you doing?" There was none of that.
357
00:41:57,731.2146542 --> 00:41:59,471.2146542
There was just like, "You're gonna figure it out."
358
00:42:00,71.2146542 --> 00:42:04,171.2156542
And, you know, this is the first time I've really confronted that.
359
00:42:04,301.2156542 --> 00:42:08,791.2146542
Um, you know, maybe it's not, but really had a good think about it.
360
00:42:08,791.2156542 --> 00:42:15,981.2126542
Even my wife, you know, I said, "Look, can you hold down the fort financially for a little bit?" And she said, "Yeah, I think you're gonna make it work."
361
00:42:17,401.2146542 --> 00:42:28,697.3747306
It means a lot that, people have been very patient with me over the years to know that I-- to give me that space to do it, you know, whether I was making a whole heap of noise in the garage, annoying the neighbors.
362
00:42:28,747.3747306 --> 00:42:30,187.3767306
There was no neighbors telling me to shut up.
363
00:42:30,197.3757306 --> 00:42:32,77.3777306
They were saying, "Oh, we like the music you're playing out there."
364
00:42:33,247.3747306 --> 00:42:33,757.3747306
Great.
365
00:42:35,747.3747306 --> 00:42:40,377.3737306
Y- Why isn't anyone stopping me? Like they, they're gonna let me keep going, you know.
366
00:42:40,427.3757306 --> 00:42:46,377.3767306
That, that, I think that's a big reason why I'm here is because I just got to keep going.
367
00:42:46,387.3747306 --> 00:42:50,537.3747306
There was not a whole lot really forcing themselves in to stop me.
368
00:42:50,537.3757306 --> 00:42:52,307.3767306
So that it means a lot in that way.
369
00:42:52,467.3767306 --> 00:43:01,733.9488303
It, it took a village, I think, for me to get to where I am now, and I, I c- I've got to remember that for sure A village of support Yeah, I think so.
370
00:43:01,823.9488303 --> 00:43:11,473.9478303
And it's, whether it's support or whether it's just not the opposite of support, you know, um, there wasn't a whole lot of people saying, "You're crap.
371
00:43:11,513.9488303 --> 00:43:12,313.9478303
You gotta stop."
372
00:43:12,963.9478303 --> 00:43:17,203.9478303
If they thought I was crap at some stage, they didn't say it which is a relief.
373
00:43:17,203.9478303 --> 00:43:26,533.9478303
So there's lots of different kinds of support, and I just felt like I had this, um, straight line to what I wanted to do.
374
00:43:26,583.9488303 --> 00:43:30,839.337704
And, I guess how I paid it forward was just not giving up.
375
00:43:31,279.337704 --> 00:43:42,59.336704
If it had of been me that had packed it in, that would've been pretty disappointing, I think, for everyone else to have let me do it and then they go, "Oh, well of course he didn't, um, you know, follow through it.
376
00:43:42,59.338704 --> 00:43:43,399.336704
He's not got the motivation."
377
00:43:43,439.339704 --> 00:44:01,952.7752909
I do, and I wanna show people that you've given me the time and the space to go and pursue a career like this, and, I wanna work so hard to come out the other side to prove you all right, including myself That's the best possible spot to be in Hmm.
378
00:44:02,562.7752909 --> 00:44:10,294.6609276
Proving, proving everyone right I guess, is how I feel because I don't think I proved anyone wrong that I couldn't do this.
379
00:44:10,294.6609276 --> 00:44:15,62.5678556
Everyone for some reason thought I could That's amazing.
380
00:44:16,469.8390937 --> 00:44:20,581.5509785
Well, thank you very much, Ethan, and, all Forrest.Chat
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00:44:20,771.5509785 --> 00:44:25,360.5509785
listeners wish you all the best with your future endeavors Oh, thanks for having me, Matt.
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00:44:25,360.5509785 --> 00:44:26,130.5509785
It was a really good chat.
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00:44:26,140.5509785 --> 00:44:27,577.7120549
Appreciate it A pleasure.
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00:44:27,853.8731313 --> 00:44:30,83.8731313
You've been listening to Forest.Chat,
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00:44:30,143.8731313 --> 00:44:36,873.8731313
where we talk about individual endeavor in Western Australia, what it takes, what it means, and how you do it.
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00:44:37,533.8731313 --> 00:44:46,323.8731313
I'm your host, Paul van der Mey, and in today's episode, we've been talking with Ethan Kavanagh about being a digital creator.
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00:44:47,3.8731313 --> 00:44:50,483.8721313
Remember, there are four ways to get involved with Forest.Chat.
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00:45:20,970.1212199 --> 00:45:23,430.1212199
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Until then, enjoy making it happen.