speaker-0: Growing in Asian culture, we're not taught to do that. I would hesitate to apply because I was like, ⁓ I'm not ready. The only difference is they were willing to put themselves out there. We're life is so short. Half the time I just say yes and I don't even know what I'm gonna do.
speaker-1: Hi, ⁓ I am Wendy Kim and welcome to my podcast, Follow the Pull. As an accomplished speaker, author, and entrepreneur, my career has been more meaningful and impactful than I could have ever imagined. And it's simply because I relentlessly follow the pull. I listen to my intuition versus relying on other people telling me what to do. The pull is what life is telling you that you truly desire. What is in alignment for you? And when you move in that direction, you can't help but have what you want. Every week on my show, I will provide the tools. Tips along with interviews of people who are successful and thriving who have learned to follow the pole. Welcome everybody to the Follow the Pull podcast. So excited to have our special guest today, Sheena Yap Chen. I'm gonna start off by ⁓ sharing about Sheena, she's a Wall Street journal. And publisher's weekly bestselling author, TED X and keynote speaker, and one of the leading voices in human readiness, the emerging field at the intersection of confidence, visibility, and workforce transformation. She is the founder of Confidence through visibility movement and creator of the Visible Framework, a proprietary system used by leaders. And sh Sheena is a friend of mine, a fellow speaker, a fellow API leader. Sheena, welcome to the Follow the Pull podcast. So glad to have you here today.
speaker-0: Hey Wendy, thank you so much for having me. Super excited to be here today to just chat with you and honored to be one of the you know, early guests.
speaker-1: Yeah. Okay, so follow the pull is really about listening to your gut, following your intuition, trusting yourself. And I wanna start off by asking you, did you grow up learning to listen to your intuition or were you more raised to follow other people's expectations?
speaker-0: Yeah, that's a great question. And I definitely did not follow my intuition. You know, growing up in Asian culture, we're not taught to do that. We're just taught to do as you're told, never make any noise, and never rock the boat. And so growing up, I would second guess myself, like there's no tomorrow. Like making a decision was like such a big deal for me because I was so afraid to make my own decisions because my decisions were always made for me, right? I would always consult my parents on every single thing. Because I thought, you know, they're my parents. They know what they're doing. And nothing wrong with it, of course. But, you know, your parents are just doing what they were taught to do, right? They never taught us to follow your intuition, learn to make mistakes, learn to make your own decisions, whether good, bad, or ugly. And it's so important to learn these things, especially in the real world where we're gonna have to face these s situations. And as women, we are naturally intuitive. So You know, you're gonna get like a sign or something in your body's telling you that, you know, it's a good or bad thing, but we tend to ignore it because we feel like we're not good enough or we think, you know, our own judgment isn't good enough when it's more than enough. It's not gonna look like what you meant what you might have pictured, but I believe everything falls into place.
speaker-1: Yeah, so do you have a specific ⁓ specific example of when you went against your intuition, went against your gut, and how that turned out?
speaker-0: Yeah, like, you know, if there was something that pushed me to like go for it, I would actually hesitate because I didn't feel like I was good enough. And then, you know, I see the person who actually like say a speaking engagement, right? I would be I would hesitate to apply because I was like, ⁓ I'm not ready, I'm not prepared, I'm not good enough, I'm not knowledgeable. And then I see a video of a person who applied for it and I look at them and this is not to knock anybody down, okay? ⁓ this is just more like showing you what's really possible, right? So I see the person who's on stage and I'm like thinking, they're not that great. You know, I was like, I could do a better job. The only difference is they were willing to put themselves out there. We're they were willing to say, Hey, I can speak on this topic. They're willing to just send in an application. That's the only difference, right? And this is why I you know it's important to just go for it even if you're not prepared. Because Because it's practice. You gotta practice like pitching, speaking, putting yourself out there. Nothing happens overnight. And even the people you see that's been on stages, they had to start somewhere. Like the the best example I would give are comedians. Like comedians when they first start out, they they just go wherever there's a platform. Even if it's at 2 a.m. where there's like two people and they get paid in beer, right? But they're willing to do it because they're practicing their craft. And they realize if they can make someone laugh at 2 a.m. and like the deadest hour of the night, then they got something. And they just keep going to the all these different places to practice their craft to market themselves to get to where they are today. I mean, there's so many stories out there, but I think for me I like seeing the progression that they've done going from like zero to a hundred and just taking it step by step, going to every different, ⁓ event to show them like, hey, you know, I'm practicing, I'm practicing, I'm getting better at it. I'm getting better at my delivery. I'm getting better at, you know, reading the crowd. Whatever that looks like, you know, we have to start somewhere. So for me, ⁓ yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah, so you you and I have I would say pretty non traditional careers, especially coming from the Asian culture. How when did you start hearing the poll or or s having this nudge for yourself that you were meant to get into speaking, into writing versus following a traditional career?
speaker-0: Yeah, I mean, my journey has been a long like a long journey, right? And I think the first instance where I decided I really wanted to just venture into my own instead of, you know, working the nine to five. And again, there's nothing wrong with working a job if you love what you're doing. But I always knew there was something out there. Something I was always meant to do something more, but I was always afraid because culturally we're told, Go get a job, you know, work till you retire and that's your life. Like you're your whole life is set for you, right, in Asian culture. But for me I always knew there was something more. And it wasn't actually until my aunt passed away about thirteen, fourteen years ago, where I really realized that, you know, life is so short. I could die the next day and not have anything to show for. And for me I really didn't want to live life full of regrets. And so that's when I decided I'm just gonna do it. It didn't happen overnight, but it was the start of, you know, thinking, what can I do better? How can I Put myself out there, you know, what's that first step look like?
speaker-1: Yeah. I'm I'm curious, what was that first step for you?
speaker-0: I think mine was a lot mine was not thought out well. So for anyone listening, I would I wouldn't don't follow what I did. So like I think for me everything was just through intuition. I at first I said I wanted to live somewhere outside of Canada and being in Toronto in the winter is very depressing because it's snow and the days are shorter and so I wanted somewhere that was nice and warm and there was palm trees. And for some reason, Hawaii popped up. I don't know why Hawaii popped up and I was like, okay, I want to go to Hawaii. There was no explanation. ⁓ about maybe s about a little over under a year, I decided to ⁓ quit my job ⁓ out of nowhere. You know, I was just fed up. And I again, this is why I said, Don't follow what I did. Be smart about it, you know. If there was something I would have done pro done differently, it's like I should have gotten some sort of package. But you know, everything happens for a reason. ⁓ and I just went for it. I had no action plan. So my my journey's different, right? So that's why when people ask me, like, should I quit my job? I'm like, you know, I don't know what your situation is. I'm not gonna say yes or no. We have to figure out what your situation is. Like, are there other people involved? Do you have children? Are you married? Like there's so many different factors. And I'm not saying no, but I'm saying look be a little bit smarter about it, right? I wasn't smart about it. I just went with my emotions and just kind of went for it. I I mean, I'm glad it worked out the way it did, but I wouldn't advise it to anybody else, especially in this day and age, right? ⁓
speaker-1: Yeah, it's one of those things where I people ask me that all the time as a coach too, and it for you that It sounds like that was the right ⁓ I'm not saying it was the easy choice but you were you were following your gut, you were listening to your intuition, and again it it probably wasn't easy, but it ended up working out for you. And I know like I at at some point made that choice for myself and every person needs to make that choice for theirs themselves and we all have inner wisdom and inner guidance. And yeah, we're not saying just be reckless or like crazy or something like that. But it sounds like for you that that was the right choice for you.
speaker-0: Yeah, I mean for me that was the right choice. I wouldn't advise it to anybody. You know, they have to be like for me, it's important to work smart, right? Like especially if you're you have a job and you wanna, you know, venture out on your own. You know, whatever's hustle you have or side business you have, you know, work w work for it part time until it becomes full time income, right? Yeah. Like I wouldn't be like, quit your job, start a business. Like, no, no, d you know, let's be a little bit smart about it, right? Don't do what I did. It worked out for me, but I would not advise that for anybody else because everybody has different life situations, experiences, and I don't know what they're going through, right? And it would be so irresponsible of me to say, just quit when really I don't even know what your circumstances are.
speaker-1: Yeah, and that's the thing, like I don't think it's about advising people. That's that's a ch choice, that's a decision that only you can make for yourself. And that's where you have to be able to trust yourself. And I'm wondering for you, Sheena, how were you 'cause I'm sure many people out there would they they might have the the intuition or the gut instinct to be like, Okay, palm trees, Hawaii, but not everyone would necessarily have the competence to do that. What had you actually have the confidence to make that kind of choice?
speaker-0: Again, you know, it stem from my aunt's death, right? Like saying, you know, I just I didn't want to live life full of regrets. Like I don't you know, I don't wanna be like sixty and I'm still stuck in a cubicle regretting every single thing, right? And I'm like thinking, do I really wanna wait till I retire to live life? Like, why can't I just do that now? Like why do we have to wait till we're sixty? And you know, sometimes you wait that long and then, you know, something unfortunate happens and then and then that's it. And I'm not saying that's for everybody, but that that that could be you know, a situation that we could all go through. And so for me, it was really important to just go out there and do something different, be outside of the box or color outside the lines, whatever that looks like. And I'm I'm weird, so I'm like a little bit more obsessive than most people. So for me, it just kept coming and I just kept thinking about it and I was like, okay. If it just keeps coming, I I just gotta do it. I don't know what that looks like. I'm just gonna do it. So yeah.
speaker-1: Think well, I personally don't think you're weird. I I think that we all have those cues and those nudges. That's what follow the pull is about, is l but some of us talk ourselves out of it. Some of some people tell that voice to shut up, right? But you actually decided to listen to it. So okay, you you go to Hawaii, and then what what happened next?
speaker-0: Nothing. I mean I think I was just living my life. I was just really happy, like being in sunshine, being in beaches. And honestly, I didn't even know why I was meant to go there. I just knew I had to go there. And I think part of the reason why I needed to go there was to really just heal. Like heal from a all the things that I've won' gone through. learn to be in my own like to love my own company because I was by myself, so I would like go eat lunch by myself, go like jog, go take a walk on the beach and It's really hard to love your own company if you're not used to it. Right. Yeah. And I think that was a big lesson. And I didn't even realize these lessons until like like ten years after. So it's very recent. But or no, like like maybe five to eight years later. Like I was like, I just needed to go there to heal. Because there's something about Hawaii that just is for me, I think it's very healing. And I think this this might sound like
speaker-1: Right.
speaker-0: Like, you know, woo woo and all that stuff. But I felt like it was it I felt like it was calling me, right? Like it felt like it was calling me to say you need to come here. And so I just followed. Like there's just like this pull that you can't see but you can feel. And so that was another reason why I went too.
speaker-1: Yeah, talking about Asian culture, we've been raised and conditioned to follow logic, right? It's it's all about logic, it's all about doing what other people expect of you. So it sounds like it really took a lot of courage for you to do to make this trip and and to heal. ⁓ I'm curious what what were you healing from?
speaker-0: think just everything that I've been through, right? Like part of the reason why I started my podcast was not having enough representation, dealing with a lot of confidence issues. And in Asian culture, we're not taught to talk about the issues we were going through. I mean, back then like mental health wasn't a topic to talk about. In fact it was a topic to hide. You know, I still have elder elder relatives who think till this day that mental health isn't real, which is really sad because our culture goes through a lot of trauma. Like Yeah. Not just our own trauma, but the trauma of our ancestors, history, our parents, grandparents. Like it goes so deep, and we are told to hide it or not bring it up. Because if we bring it up, it never happened. But that's of course not true, right? It shows up. And that's where our intuition is also important to be aware of these, these, these trauma like triggers, right? Maybe it's someone's name or maybe it's something in your body or Maybe you see a sign and it just like triggers you thinking like, no, you need to work on this. You need to figure this out. You need to heal from this so you can really move up as a person that you're meant to be.
speaker-1: Yeah, for me, I can relate to that because when I was deciding to leave my corporate job and I had my business, I there was this gnawing in my soul that and it kept on coming up and it kept on coming up and I kept on telling it to to go away and I would be like, ⁓ well, I should be grateful for my job. I mean my my my mom was so poor when she came to this country. Like it would be r irresponsible for me to leave this corporate job. So for you, how do you how do you not talk yourself out of listening to your intuition, Sheena?
speaker-0: Don't get me wrong, it's not that I don't like there's still things that I talk myself out of, right? Like people don't realize I'm probably one of the biggest procrastinators. So I can procrastinate. I can procrastinate like there's no tomorrow. But I also think what would happen if I don't do it, right? What you know, for me it's like I don't want to go insane thinking what if, what if, what if. I would rather go for it.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: Get rejected and just move on. And because the problem in society is like we don't normalize rejection when really rejection happens more often than we realize, right? Like when it comes to speaking, like you know, I apply to a lot of events. I probably get 10% if I'm lucky to be accepted. You know, there's days where I'll get five rejections in one day, but I don't l I don't dwell on it any more. The first time, yeah, I did. I would eat my feelings a lot. But now I'm like, okay, I can move on. I can move on. But that teaches us resilience, confidence, the importance of just keep moving forward. Because even the people that you see online or the people of influence, like they went through so much rejection to get to where they are today. Like I think there's a quote that mentioned like 90% of the times you'll get rejected, or 99%, but that one percent that you get a yes for. can really impact the world, right? And that makes total sense. Like, look at the light bulb. 10,000 ways for a light bulb not to work. And then the the time that it did work, like just imagine who owns a light bulb in this day and age? Like almost everybody, right? So I I for me it is important to normalize that because it's part of the journey. It's part of every entrepreneur's journey. It's part of any career professional's journey. Especially when you're going out there applying for jobs, applying for promotions, interviews, we all get rejected. It's it's just part of life.
speaker-1: Yeah, and I think I don't look at it as rejection. I look at it as it's n it's just wasn't a good fit. Because I think I think if you're like I I'm getting rejected, rejected re like it that can make it more significant than it needs to be when it just wasn't a good fit. It was a no. And yeah, to your point I mean, I I can think of examples where like I there was this one opportunity and it was with this huge company and it would have been like a year long project. And at the time they said no. And I'd put so much into it and I was upset. But looking back, I'm so grateful that I didn't take that on because it it set me in a different trajectory in my career doing things that I enjoy more. So yeah. But you're right. I I love what you were saying earlier about when when you see someone, maybe they they have a job or they got promoted or they they got this speaking engagement and you didn't necessarily apply. Right? And and that feeling of like, ugh I actually am more qualified, which I I think a lot of Asian people can relate to. Right? Like 'cause I I don't know about for you, but did you Did you feel growing up like you had to had to be like a perfect before you could actually go for an opportunity or or not so much.
speaker-0: Yeah, being Asian, like we've always been taught to get straight A's, be perfect to a T. Like I remember bringing home a math test, ⁓ and it was I got like a ninety five and my dad's like, Well, wasn't it a hundred? And like that really like that really affected me, like thinking I needed to be perfect to a T and even in the Philippines, I mean, I talk about this story where I failed kindergarten for coloring outside the lines of a photo. And that really that really stuck with me into my adult life, thinking You know, I was afraid to launch anything. I was afraid to like apply for anything because I already was assuming that I was gonna be an instant failure if I went for it. And I didn't realize that actually stemmed from failing kindergarten for coloring outside the lines, right? This is why it is important to work through our trauma, to work through the things that is really stopping us from moving forward because Perfection will get you nowhere. I know because I delayed my own success success for five years because I thought I needed everything to be perfect to a T. Not realizing it's just taking imperfect action. You know, ready, fire aim. Just take action, you know, start before you're ready, take action, course correct as you go. And the more you keep doing that, that's how you start getting results.
speaker-1: Yeah, so I love this ⁓ concept of starting before you're ready. What do you have an example of when when I I got the example of when you didn't go for something. Do you have an example of when you did go for something that maybe you didn't feel prepared for or ready for and and what happened and was there a good
speaker-0: Yeah, I mean so many so many instances. Like even writing my first book, when Wiley approached me to write my first book, I I had major imposter syndrome. I was like, I don't know if I'm the poster child to talk about Asian leadership, to write a book and you know, I I'm glad I had people around me that encouraged me who basically was like, You better write this book you know, and sh they were right because I talk about representation and here I'm given an opportunity to really like have something out there. And I almost said no because I didn't think I was good enough. And I have no writing background. When I came to Canada, I took English classes. I couldn't speak English for the life of it. So I like I couldn't even put sentences together. Like, you know, my grammar is terrible. My sister always makes fun of my grammar, but I just said, okay, I'm gonna figure this out. Like I will write this book. I I will figure this out. I will produce 50,000 words. And I had like a three-month deadline. So, so that really made me realize I can do this. Like I don't have to know everything. I don't need to be an expert of everything. I just need to just do it. And if there's a mistake, we can always course correct it.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. What what I also get behind what you said is you you also are committed to making a difference and and having representation and being someone that other people can be inspired by. Did does that also help you to take action even when you don't feel ready?
speaker-0: Yeah, I mean, I think for me representation is important, right? When I see somebody else that looks like me that's able to go out there and do something, it makes it makes me realize, ⁓ like if they can do it, I can do it. Yeah. It's the reason why I started my podcast because there wasn't a lot of stories where Asian women were like making eight figures, were starting their own practices, were they they created a big following or you know, just all these different stories and Being able to interview over 800 Asian women on the topic of confidence and seeing where their journey has been, including yours, it helps me realize I'm not alone. If that person can do it, I can do it.
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, that's that's so powerful. I I have a question. Was was there a moment when you your gut was telling you to go a certain way and everybody else was like, Don't do that, how could you do that? And what did you do in that situation?
speaker-0: Yeah, of course. I mean, being Asian, right? When you do something outside of the path, like they already think you're crazy. You need to like be you know, you need work on yourself. Like so many people were like, Why don't you go get a job, get married, why are you doing this? And and I had to trust my own my own intuition, my own instincts and just keep moving on because I knew it was for me. And yeah, you know, you when you have and I understand That you have friends and family who just care for you and they think that's not the way because they only see one way of doing things. But I had to learn to like just push through in spite of it. So yeah, I had side eyes, dirty looks, snag comments, but you know, it never stopped me because it's funny, once ⁓ I had my book out, now everyone's like, ⁓ she's an accomplished author. I'm like, okay.
speaker-1: Yeah Yeah, that well that that speaks to something because I I've definitely found that there who you're you're spending your time with makes a difference in in terms of what kind of impact you can have. And for me personally there there have been relationships along the way where I I'm not as close to certain people who are not as aligned as I used to be have
speaker-0: Ha ha ha.
speaker-1: Have you had to shift your relationships at all as you've up leveled, as you've increased your confidence, as you've followed the pull in your own life?
speaker-0: Yeah, I mean, I know we have family members that we can't avoid. So, you know, this is why working on your mindset is so important because, you know, we're not gonna always be in in good situations or you know, w we we have like toxic family members that we can't run away from, you know, no matter what we can do. So it is important to work on yourself, you know, we're do the inner work so that you have the tools and resources to help you come out of it when times are tough, right? Nobody nobody understands how important it is to do that inner work. It's eighty percent of the work because once you can fix that properly or really have the tools and resources to help you con out come out of it, everything else will feel a lot better, a lot easier. I'm not saying that it'll be like rainbows and butterflies, but even if you go through roadblocks, it won't seem so bad, right? Because now you have the tools and resources to help you move forward.
speaker-1: Yeah, I love that. So if you were speaking to say a young woman, maybe maybe a teenage girl who feels like she has to follow other people's expectations versus following her own intuition, what would you tell her?
speaker-0: Wow, this is this is this is a great question and I don't think take this question lightly because I know a sixteen year old girl is very impressionable, right? I think I think you know what really hurts me is like, you know, peop kids go to school and there's nothing wrong with going to school. I think it's great, but you know, math and science is important, but also people skills is just as important. Yeah. Having human readiness, being able to help them push through even if they doubt themselves or be able to work on their mindset or being able to speak up, right? Share their opinions and not be afraid if they get rejected or not. Those are all things that we really need when we're sp put out into the real world after we graduate, right? Like how do how do people keep moving forward in spite of in spite of how many rejections they get or What happens like we all know AI is a big topic, right? And everyone's like, you need to be AI ready. You need to be AI ready. And it's like, no, we need to be human ready, right? Because we're gonna go through different situations in this life. And how do we move forward? How do we move forward with the change? How do we move forward as human beings, right? Like, you know, as humans, we are so capable to always find a way to move forward and utilize a tool. To live cohesively. I know right now it's painted in a bad light, and I don't blame anybody, especially with what's been going on, right? I get it. I see things from both perspectives. But, you know, if we learn to utilize it to help our lives become better, then why not? Right? There is a way, it's just right now it's not painted that way. which like, you know, it I know that we can go on a whole tangent, but for me. It's about how do we keep moving forward with these big life moments, right? Like the pandemic. The pandemic was like probably the most uncertain thing that ever happened, right? We were all locked down, the world closed. We had no clue what was going to happen. But yet we s we thrived. We not we didn't just survive, we thrived through it. And that it wasn't perfect. Of course, we know that it wasn't perfect, but we were still able to. run a business, start a new business, connect with people all through the power of the internet. So this is for me as as a as a sixteen year old, it's important to work on like skills to prepare you for the real world, human readiness skills, right? Being able to learn to believe in yourself, do the inner work, be able to show up, speak up, share your voice, show up in your in your authentic self. And I know that sounds cheesy, but it's so important, right? Like Being authentic is probably the thing that you need now more than ever with all the AI cat videos, right? People are looking for more human connection, you know, just more human things, right? This is why like events are on the rides, like in-person events, because people just want to connect with other people. And so for me, building those skills, right? Like building the human readiness skills, building your mindset, really, really like figure out how you can weather through the storm. Because when we can do that, like we become invincible, right? That that's just for me. So yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah, so in s what I'm hearing you saying is practically being able to invest in either relationships or programs or trainings that are going to build what you're I like what you're saying about human readiness, your your resilience, your your ability to bounce back when there's setbacks or uncertainty, being able to connect with people on a human level, because I think you're right People nowadays are so focused on AI and building that skill and they think that that's gonna solve for everything when in fact I I believe, like it seems you do, that human skills and and c communication and these kinds of things are gonna become even that much more important.
speaker-0: Yeah, and there's been reports that mention that, you know, the soft skills are not gonna be the soft skills. Those are the things that we're gonna need to learn, right? Resilience, confidence, leadership, emotional intelligence, all that is gonna be needed now more than ever. So, you know, I it it's it's I know it's a it's a difficult topic, but it's I think if we don't talk about these things then nothing happens either.
speaker-1: Yeah. one ⁓ one last question ⁓ I wanna ask you. What what does self-trust mean to you, Sheena, in in your work?
speaker-0: I think for me it's just knowing you're capable. You could do it, right? You're more than capable. And it having that capability is so important. It's the reason why I wrote Bridging the Confidence Gap, right? Because there's a disconnect with how capable you are versus how capable you feel. So if there's a gap there, you're not gonna go out there and take the first step, even if you have no clue what you're gonna do. Half the time I just say yes and I don't even know what I'm gonna do. I just say yes, I know I'm gonna figure it out. Like I'm I I I know I can figure it out. I'll just say yes and if I fumble, I fumble. Like it's not the end of the world, right? Because again, you know, I see peop like I go to a lot of speaking events and I see some of these people on stage and I'm like thinking, Wow, there's so many other qualified people, but the only difference is is that they're more willing to put themselves out there than others, right? And I had to learn that the hard way. 'Cause I was always jealous and not realizing, you know what, it's I have to make that change. Right. Instead of, you know, getting mad, comparing myself, which is a very Asian thing to do, I said, No, I need to change. I need to do something different. I can do this. If other people can do it, why can't I? You know, what makes them different from me? It's just having the tenacity, the resilience to keep moving forward and just you know, just keep doing it until you get to that result, right? I mean, I read a lot of like stories where people were like, I just decided to You know, reach out to a thousand a thousand people, right? And it led them to all these opportunities. But, you know, if you think about it, like not everyone's gonna do that, right? Because it is a lot of work. But, you know, if you keep doing it, it is gonna land you opportunities. You just have to really believe that you are capable of doing it. And mistakes are okay. Mistakes are a good thing because it helps you learn from them, right? You can learn what you did wrong. Like, ⁓ okay, I did this wrong, I'm gonna fix it. ⁓ I did this one wrong, I'm gonna fix it. So cause you're not gonna learn if you you never make a mistake, right? You're just gonna be stuck and you're not gonna learn anything. But when we make mistakes, when we show up, like even me, sometimes if I go on stage and I'm like talking and I'm like, ⁓ I shouldn't have done that. ⁓ I need to figure this out. ⁓ I need to be more clear on this. Like now I'm like, ⁓ okay, now all the mistakes that I've made, I can correct it now.
speaker-1: Yeah, that's so good. and a lot of it is unlearning the the perfectionism we've talked about. Like I I do that too. Like I'll I'll notice, ⁓ I made a mistake in a talk or something like that. And instead of focusing on the ninety-eight percent that I did really well, it's like I'll fixate on that one thing. But I've been learning to shift that mindset and to focus on the ninety-eight percent versus that two percent. But it it is shifting that mindset like you're saying and being proud ⁓ being proud when we okay we didn't maybe we didn't get the job but at least we applied and if we hadn't applied we wouldn't have been had any shot whatsoever. And and I love what you said about okay, the thousand opportunities. Maybe it's not okay, you're not gonna start off with reaching out to a thousand people, but you could reach out to like one or two people. And then build that muscle of of confidence, right? So China, it has been so great being with you today. You have so much ⁓ wisdom and it's just been so cool hearing how you followed the poll in your own life and how it's led you to where you are. How can people get a hold of you or learn more about you?
speaker-0: Yeah, you can ⁓ check out my website, Sheenayapchan.com. I have some free resources that you can do, like a self-confidence quiz ⁓ personality type, ⁓ a visible framework toolkit, the framework that I've shared at many different conferences and companies. ⁓ you can also check out my books, The Tow of Self-Confidence or Bridging the Confidence Gap on all major bookstores, ⁓ book book retailers. ⁓ you can also connect with me on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, TikTok everywhere. But if you forget anything that I mentioned, just literally Google my name, Sheena Yap Chan. I'm literally the only Sheena Yap Chan on the internet. So I'm not hard to find.
speaker-1: Everywhere. Okay, well thank you for being here with us today for the Follow the Pull podcast.
speaker-1: Hi, ⁓ I am Wendy Kim and welcome to my podcast, Follow the Pull. As an accomplished speaker, author, and entrepreneur, my career has been more meaningful and impactful than I could have ever imagined. And it's simply because I relentlessly follow the pull. I listen to my intuition versus relying on other people telling me what to do. The pull is what life is telling you that you truly desire. What is in alignment for you? And when you move in that direction, you can't help but have what you want. Every week on my show, I will provide the tools. Tips along with interviews of people who are successful and thriving who have learned to follow the pole. Welcome everybody to the Follow the Pull podcast. So excited to have our special guest today, Sheena Yap Chen. I'm gonna start off by ⁓ sharing about Sheena, she's a Wall Street journal. And publisher's weekly bestselling author, TED X and keynote speaker, and one of the leading voices in human readiness, the emerging field at the intersection of confidence, visibility, and workforce transformation. She is the founder of Confidence through visibility movement and creator of the Visible Framework, a proprietary system used by leaders. And sh Sheena is a friend of mine, a fellow speaker, a fellow API leader. Sheena, welcome to the Follow the Pull podcast. So glad to have you here today.
speaker-0: Hey Wendy, thank you so much for having me. Super excited to be here today to just chat with you and honored to be one of the you know, early guests.
speaker-1: Yeah. Okay, so follow the pull is really about listening to your gut, following your intuition, trusting yourself. And I wanna start off by asking you, did you grow up learning to listen to your intuition or were you more raised to follow other people's expectations?
speaker-0: Yeah, that's a great question. And I definitely did not follow my intuition. You know, growing up in Asian culture, we're not taught to do that. We're just taught to do as you're told, never make any noise, and never rock the boat. And so growing up, I would second guess myself, like there's no tomorrow. Like making a decision was like such a big deal for me because I was so afraid to make my own decisions because my decisions were always made for me, right? I would always consult my parents on every single thing. Because I thought, you know, they're my parents. They know what they're doing. And nothing wrong with it, of course. But, you know, your parents are just doing what they were taught to do, right? They never taught us to follow your intuition, learn to make mistakes, learn to make your own decisions, whether good, bad, or ugly. And it's so important to learn these things, especially in the real world where we're gonna have to face these s situations. And as women, we are naturally intuitive. So You know, you're gonna get like a sign or something in your body's telling you that, you know, it's a good or bad thing, but we tend to ignore it because we feel like we're not good enough or we think, you know, our own judgment isn't good enough when it's more than enough. It's not gonna look like what you meant what you might have pictured, but I believe everything falls into place.
speaker-1: Yeah, so do you have a specific ⁓ specific example of when you went against your intuition, went against your gut, and how that turned out?
speaker-0: Yeah, like, you know, if there was something that pushed me to like go for it, I would actually hesitate because I didn't feel like I was good enough. And then, you know, I see the person who actually like say a speaking engagement, right? I would be I would hesitate to apply because I was like, ⁓ I'm not ready, I'm not prepared, I'm not good enough, I'm not knowledgeable. And then I see a video of a person who applied for it and I look at them and this is not to knock anybody down, okay? ⁓ this is just more like showing you what's really possible, right? So I see the person who's on stage and I'm like thinking, they're not that great. You know, I was like, I could do a better job. The only difference is they were willing to put themselves out there. We're they were willing to say, Hey, I can speak on this topic. They're willing to just send in an application. That's the only difference, right? And this is why I you know it's important to just go for it even if you're not prepared. Because Because it's practice. You gotta practice like pitching, speaking, putting yourself out there. Nothing happens overnight. And even the people you see that's been on stages, they had to start somewhere. Like the the best example I would give are comedians. Like comedians when they first start out, they they just go wherever there's a platform. Even if it's at 2 a.m. where there's like two people and they get paid in beer, right? But they're willing to do it because they're practicing their craft. And they realize if they can make someone laugh at 2 a.m. and like the deadest hour of the night, then they got something. And they just keep going to the all these different places to practice their craft to market themselves to get to where they are today. I mean, there's so many stories out there, but I think for me I like seeing the progression that they've done going from like zero to a hundred and just taking it step by step, going to every different, ⁓ event to show them like, hey, you know, I'm practicing, I'm practicing, I'm getting better at it. I'm getting better at my delivery. I'm getting better at, you know, reading the crowd. Whatever that looks like, you know, we have to start somewhere. So for me, ⁓ yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah, so you you and I have I would say pretty non traditional careers, especially coming from the Asian culture. How when did you start hearing the poll or or s having this nudge for yourself that you were meant to get into speaking, into writing versus following a traditional career?
speaker-0: Yeah, I mean, my journey has been a long like a long journey, right? And I think the first instance where I decided I really wanted to just venture into my own instead of, you know, working the nine to five. And again, there's nothing wrong with working a job if you love what you're doing. But I always knew there was something out there. Something I was always meant to do something more, but I was always afraid because culturally we're told, Go get a job, you know, work till you retire and that's your life. Like you're your whole life is set for you, right, in Asian culture. But for me I always knew there was something more. And it wasn't actually until my aunt passed away about thirteen, fourteen years ago, where I really realized that, you know, life is so short. I could die the next day and not have anything to show for. And for me I really didn't want to live life full of regrets. And so that's when I decided I'm just gonna do it. It didn't happen overnight, but it was the start of, you know, thinking, what can I do better? How can I Put myself out there, you know, what's that first step look like?
speaker-1: Yeah. I'm I'm curious, what was that first step for you?
speaker-0: I think mine was a lot mine was not thought out well. So for anyone listening, I would I wouldn't don't follow what I did. So like I think for me everything was just through intuition. I at first I said I wanted to live somewhere outside of Canada and being in Toronto in the winter is very depressing because it's snow and the days are shorter and so I wanted somewhere that was nice and warm and there was palm trees. And for some reason, Hawaii popped up. I don't know why Hawaii popped up and I was like, okay, I want to go to Hawaii. There was no explanation. ⁓ about maybe s about a little over under a year, I decided to ⁓ quit my job ⁓ out of nowhere. You know, I was just fed up. And I again, this is why I said, Don't follow what I did. Be smart about it, you know. If there was something I would have done pro done differently, it's like I should have gotten some sort of package. But you know, everything happens for a reason. ⁓ and I just went for it. I had no action plan. So my my journey's different, right? So that's why when people ask me, like, should I quit my job? I'm like, you know, I don't know what your situation is. I'm not gonna say yes or no. We have to figure out what your situation is. Like, are there other people involved? Do you have children? Are you married? Like there's so many different factors. And I'm not saying no, but I'm saying look be a little bit smarter about it, right? I wasn't smart about it. I just went with my emotions and just kind of went for it. I I mean, I'm glad it worked out the way it did, but I wouldn't advise it to anybody else, especially in this day and age, right? ⁓
speaker-1: Yeah, it's one of those things where I people ask me that all the time as a coach too, and it for you that It sounds like that was the right ⁓ I'm not saying it was the easy choice but you were you were following your gut, you were listening to your intuition, and again it it probably wasn't easy, but it ended up working out for you. And I know like I at at some point made that choice for myself and every person needs to make that choice for theirs themselves and we all have inner wisdom and inner guidance. And yeah, we're not saying just be reckless or like crazy or something like that. But it sounds like for you that that was the right choice for you.
speaker-0: Yeah, I mean for me that was the right choice. I wouldn't advise it to anybody. You know, they have to be like for me, it's important to work smart, right? Like especially if you're you have a job and you wanna, you know, venture out on your own. You know, whatever's hustle you have or side business you have, you know, work w work for it part time until it becomes full time income, right? Yeah. Like I wouldn't be like, quit your job, start a business. Like, no, no, d you know, let's be a little bit smart about it, right? Don't do what I did. It worked out for me, but I would not advise that for anybody else because everybody has different life situations, experiences, and I don't know what they're going through, right? And it would be so irresponsible of me to say, just quit when really I don't even know what your circumstances are.
speaker-1: Yeah, and that's the thing, like I don't think it's about advising people. That's that's a ch choice, that's a decision that only you can make for yourself. And that's where you have to be able to trust yourself. And I'm wondering for you, Sheena, how were you 'cause I'm sure many people out there would they they might have the the intuition or the gut instinct to be like, Okay, palm trees, Hawaii, but not everyone would necessarily have the competence to do that. What had you actually have the confidence to make that kind of choice?
speaker-0: Again, you know, it stem from my aunt's death, right? Like saying, you know, I just I didn't want to live life full of regrets. Like I don't you know, I don't wanna be like sixty and I'm still stuck in a cubicle regretting every single thing, right? And I'm like thinking, do I really wanna wait till I retire to live life? Like, why can't I just do that now? Like why do we have to wait till we're sixty? And you know, sometimes you wait that long and then, you know, something unfortunate happens and then and then that's it. And I'm not saying that's for everybody, but that that that could be you know, a situation that we could all go through. And so for me, it was really important to just go out there and do something different, be outside of the box or color outside the lines, whatever that looks like. And I'm I'm weird, so I'm like a little bit more obsessive than most people. So for me, it just kept coming and I just kept thinking about it and I was like, okay. If it just keeps coming, I I just gotta do it. I don't know what that looks like. I'm just gonna do it. So yeah.
speaker-1: Think well, I personally don't think you're weird. I I think that we all have those cues and those nudges. That's what follow the pull is about, is l but some of us talk ourselves out of it. Some of some people tell that voice to shut up, right? But you actually decided to listen to it. So okay, you you go to Hawaii, and then what what happened next?
speaker-0: Nothing. I mean I think I was just living my life. I was just really happy, like being in sunshine, being in beaches. And honestly, I didn't even know why I was meant to go there. I just knew I had to go there. And I think part of the reason why I needed to go there was to really just heal. Like heal from a all the things that I've won' gone through. learn to be in my own like to love my own company because I was by myself, so I would like go eat lunch by myself, go like jog, go take a walk on the beach and It's really hard to love your own company if you're not used to it. Right. Yeah. And I think that was a big lesson. And I didn't even realize these lessons until like like ten years after. So it's very recent. But or no, like like maybe five to eight years later. Like I was like, I just needed to go there to heal. Because there's something about Hawaii that just is for me, I think it's very healing. And I think this this might sound like
speaker-1: Right.
speaker-0: Like, you know, woo woo and all that stuff. But I felt like it was it I felt like it was calling me, right? Like it felt like it was calling me to say you need to come here. And so I just followed. Like there's just like this pull that you can't see but you can feel. And so that was another reason why I went too.
speaker-1: Yeah, talking about Asian culture, we've been raised and conditioned to follow logic, right? It's it's all about logic, it's all about doing what other people expect of you. So it sounds like it really took a lot of courage for you to do to make this trip and and to heal. ⁓ I'm curious what what were you healing from?
speaker-0: think just everything that I've been through, right? Like part of the reason why I started my podcast was not having enough representation, dealing with a lot of confidence issues. And in Asian culture, we're not taught to talk about the issues we were going through. I mean, back then like mental health wasn't a topic to talk about. In fact it was a topic to hide. You know, I still have elder elder relatives who think till this day that mental health isn't real, which is really sad because our culture goes through a lot of trauma. Like Yeah. Not just our own trauma, but the trauma of our ancestors, history, our parents, grandparents. Like it goes so deep, and we are told to hide it or not bring it up. Because if we bring it up, it never happened. But that's of course not true, right? It shows up. And that's where our intuition is also important to be aware of these, these, these trauma like triggers, right? Maybe it's someone's name or maybe it's something in your body or Maybe you see a sign and it just like triggers you thinking like, no, you need to work on this. You need to figure this out. You need to heal from this so you can really move up as a person that you're meant to be.
speaker-1: Yeah, for me, I can relate to that because when I was deciding to leave my corporate job and I had my business, I there was this gnawing in my soul that and it kept on coming up and it kept on coming up and I kept on telling it to to go away and I would be like, ⁓ well, I should be grateful for my job. I mean my my my mom was so poor when she came to this country. Like it would be r irresponsible for me to leave this corporate job. So for you, how do you how do you not talk yourself out of listening to your intuition, Sheena?
speaker-0: Don't get me wrong, it's not that I don't like there's still things that I talk myself out of, right? Like people don't realize I'm probably one of the biggest procrastinators. So I can procrastinate. I can procrastinate like there's no tomorrow. But I also think what would happen if I don't do it, right? What you know, for me it's like I don't want to go insane thinking what if, what if, what if. I would rather go for it.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: Get rejected and just move on. And because the problem in society is like we don't normalize rejection when really rejection happens more often than we realize, right? Like when it comes to speaking, like you know, I apply to a lot of events. I probably get 10% if I'm lucky to be accepted. You know, there's days where I'll get five rejections in one day, but I don't l I don't dwell on it any more. The first time, yeah, I did. I would eat my feelings a lot. But now I'm like, okay, I can move on. I can move on. But that teaches us resilience, confidence, the importance of just keep moving forward. Because even the people that you see online or the people of influence, like they went through so much rejection to get to where they are today. Like I think there's a quote that mentioned like 90% of the times you'll get rejected, or 99%, but that one percent that you get a yes for. can really impact the world, right? And that makes total sense. Like, look at the light bulb. 10,000 ways for a light bulb not to work. And then the the time that it did work, like just imagine who owns a light bulb in this day and age? Like almost everybody, right? So I I for me it is important to normalize that because it's part of the journey. It's part of every entrepreneur's journey. It's part of any career professional's journey. Especially when you're going out there applying for jobs, applying for promotions, interviews, we all get rejected. It's it's just part of life.
speaker-1: Yeah, and I think I don't look at it as rejection. I look at it as it's n it's just wasn't a good fit. Because I think I think if you're like I I'm getting rejected, rejected re like it that can make it more significant than it needs to be when it just wasn't a good fit. It was a no. And yeah, to your point I mean, I I can think of examples where like I there was this one opportunity and it was with this huge company and it would have been like a year long project. And at the time they said no. And I'd put so much into it and I was upset. But looking back, I'm so grateful that I didn't take that on because it it set me in a different trajectory in my career doing things that I enjoy more. So yeah. But you're right. I I love what you were saying earlier about when when you see someone, maybe they they have a job or they got promoted or they they got this speaking engagement and you didn't necessarily apply. Right? And and that feeling of like, ugh I actually am more qualified, which I I think a lot of Asian people can relate to. Right? Like 'cause I I don't know about for you, but did you Did you feel growing up like you had to had to be like a perfect before you could actually go for an opportunity or or not so much.
speaker-0: Yeah, being Asian, like we've always been taught to get straight A's, be perfect to a T. Like I remember bringing home a math test, ⁓ and it was I got like a ninety five and my dad's like, Well, wasn't it a hundred? And like that really like that really affected me, like thinking I needed to be perfect to a T and even in the Philippines, I mean, I talk about this story where I failed kindergarten for coloring outside the lines of a photo. And that really that really stuck with me into my adult life, thinking You know, I was afraid to launch anything. I was afraid to like apply for anything because I already was assuming that I was gonna be an instant failure if I went for it. And I didn't realize that actually stemmed from failing kindergarten for coloring outside the lines, right? This is why it is important to work through our trauma, to work through the things that is really stopping us from moving forward because Perfection will get you nowhere. I know because I delayed my own success success for five years because I thought I needed everything to be perfect to a T. Not realizing it's just taking imperfect action. You know, ready, fire aim. Just take action, you know, start before you're ready, take action, course correct as you go. And the more you keep doing that, that's how you start getting results.
speaker-1: Yeah, so I love this ⁓ concept of starting before you're ready. What do you have an example of when when I I got the example of when you didn't go for something. Do you have an example of when you did go for something that maybe you didn't feel prepared for or ready for and and what happened and was there a good
speaker-0: Yeah, I mean so many so many instances. Like even writing my first book, when Wiley approached me to write my first book, I I had major imposter syndrome. I was like, I don't know if I'm the poster child to talk about Asian leadership, to write a book and you know, I I'm glad I had people around me that encouraged me who basically was like, You better write this book you know, and sh they were right because I talk about representation and here I'm given an opportunity to really like have something out there. And I almost said no because I didn't think I was good enough. And I have no writing background. When I came to Canada, I took English classes. I couldn't speak English for the life of it. So I like I couldn't even put sentences together. Like, you know, my grammar is terrible. My sister always makes fun of my grammar, but I just said, okay, I'm gonna figure this out. Like I will write this book. I I will figure this out. I will produce 50,000 words. And I had like a three-month deadline. So, so that really made me realize I can do this. Like I don't have to know everything. I don't need to be an expert of everything. I just need to just do it. And if there's a mistake, we can always course correct it.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. What what I also get behind what you said is you you also are committed to making a difference and and having representation and being someone that other people can be inspired by. Did does that also help you to take action even when you don't feel ready?
speaker-0: Yeah, I mean, I think for me representation is important, right? When I see somebody else that looks like me that's able to go out there and do something, it makes it makes me realize, ⁓ like if they can do it, I can do it. Yeah. It's the reason why I started my podcast because there wasn't a lot of stories where Asian women were like making eight figures, were starting their own practices, were they they created a big following or you know, just all these different stories and Being able to interview over 800 Asian women on the topic of confidence and seeing where their journey has been, including yours, it helps me realize I'm not alone. If that person can do it, I can do it.
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, that's that's so powerful. I I have a question. Was was there a moment when you your gut was telling you to go a certain way and everybody else was like, Don't do that, how could you do that? And what did you do in that situation?
speaker-0: Yeah, of course. I mean, being Asian, right? When you do something outside of the path, like they already think you're crazy. You need to like be you know, you need work on yourself. Like so many people were like, Why don't you go get a job, get married, why are you doing this? And and I had to trust my own my own intuition, my own instincts and just keep moving on because I knew it was for me. And yeah, you know, you when you have and I understand That you have friends and family who just care for you and they think that's not the way because they only see one way of doing things. But I had to learn to like just push through in spite of it. So yeah, I had side eyes, dirty looks, snag comments, but you know, it never stopped me because it's funny, once ⁓ I had my book out, now everyone's like, ⁓ she's an accomplished author. I'm like, okay.
speaker-1: Yeah Yeah, that well that that speaks to something because I I've definitely found that there who you're you're spending your time with makes a difference in in terms of what kind of impact you can have. And for me personally there there have been relationships along the way where I I'm not as close to certain people who are not as aligned as I used to be have
speaker-0: Ha ha ha.
speaker-1: Have you had to shift your relationships at all as you've up leveled, as you've increased your confidence, as you've followed the pull in your own life?
speaker-0: Yeah, I mean, I know we have family members that we can't avoid. So, you know, this is why working on your mindset is so important because, you know, we're not gonna always be in in good situations or you know, w we we have like toxic family members that we can't run away from, you know, no matter what we can do. So it is important to work on yourself, you know, we're do the inner work so that you have the tools and resources to help you come out of it when times are tough, right? Nobody nobody understands how important it is to do that inner work. It's eighty percent of the work because once you can fix that properly or really have the tools and resources to help you con out come out of it, everything else will feel a lot better, a lot easier. I'm not saying that it'll be like rainbows and butterflies, but even if you go through roadblocks, it won't seem so bad, right? Because now you have the tools and resources to help you move forward.
speaker-1: Yeah, I love that. So if you were speaking to say a young woman, maybe maybe a teenage girl who feels like she has to follow other people's expectations versus following her own intuition, what would you tell her?
speaker-0: Wow, this is this is this is a great question and I don't think take this question lightly because I know a sixteen year old girl is very impressionable, right? I think I think you know what really hurts me is like, you know, peop kids go to school and there's nothing wrong with going to school. I think it's great, but you know, math and science is important, but also people skills is just as important. Yeah. Having human readiness, being able to help them push through even if they doubt themselves or be able to work on their mindset or being able to speak up, right? Share their opinions and not be afraid if they get rejected or not. Those are all things that we really need when we're sp put out into the real world after we graduate, right? Like how do how do people keep moving forward in spite of in spite of how many rejections they get or What happens like we all know AI is a big topic, right? And everyone's like, you need to be AI ready. You need to be AI ready. And it's like, no, we need to be human ready, right? Because we're gonna go through different situations in this life. And how do we move forward? How do we move forward with the change? How do we move forward as human beings, right? Like, you know, as humans, we are so capable to always find a way to move forward and utilize a tool. To live cohesively. I know right now it's painted in a bad light, and I don't blame anybody, especially with what's been going on, right? I get it. I see things from both perspectives. But, you know, if we learn to utilize it to help our lives become better, then why not? Right? There is a way, it's just right now it's not painted that way. which like, you know, it I know that we can go on a whole tangent, but for me. It's about how do we keep moving forward with these big life moments, right? Like the pandemic. The pandemic was like probably the most uncertain thing that ever happened, right? We were all locked down, the world closed. We had no clue what was going to happen. But yet we s we thrived. We not we didn't just survive, we thrived through it. And that it wasn't perfect. Of course, we know that it wasn't perfect, but we were still able to. run a business, start a new business, connect with people all through the power of the internet. So this is for me as as a as a sixteen year old, it's important to work on like skills to prepare you for the real world, human readiness skills, right? Being able to learn to believe in yourself, do the inner work, be able to show up, speak up, share your voice, show up in your in your authentic self. And I know that sounds cheesy, but it's so important, right? Like Being authentic is probably the thing that you need now more than ever with all the AI cat videos, right? People are looking for more human connection, you know, just more human things, right? This is why like events are on the rides, like in-person events, because people just want to connect with other people. And so for me, building those skills, right? Like building the human readiness skills, building your mindset, really, really like figure out how you can weather through the storm. Because when we can do that, like we become invincible, right? That that's just for me. So yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah, so in s what I'm hearing you saying is practically being able to invest in either relationships or programs or trainings that are going to build what you're I like what you're saying about human readiness, your your resilience, your your ability to bounce back when there's setbacks or uncertainty, being able to connect with people on a human level, because I think you're right People nowadays are so focused on AI and building that skill and they think that that's gonna solve for everything when in fact I I believe, like it seems you do, that human skills and and c communication and these kinds of things are gonna become even that much more important.
speaker-0: Yeah, and there's been reports that mention that, you know, the soft skills are not gonna be the soft skills. Those are the things that we're gonna need to learn, right? Resilience, confidence, leadership, emotional intelligence, all that is gonna be needed now more than ever. So, you know, I it it's it's I know it's a it's a difficult topic, but it's I think if we don't talk about these things then nothing happens either.
speaker-1: Yeah. one ⁓ one last question ⁓ I wanna ask you. What what does self-trust mean to you, Sheena, in in your work?
speaker-0: I think for me it's just knowing you're capable. You could do it, right? You're more than capable. And it having that capability is so important. It's the reason why I wrote Bridging the Confidence Gap, right? Because there's a disconnect with how capable you are versus how capable you feel. So if there's a gap there, you're not gonna go out there and take the first step, even if you have no clue what you're gonna do. Half the time I just say yes and I don't even know what I'm gonna do. I just say yes, I know I'm gonna figure it out. Like I'm I I I know I can figure it out. I'll just say yes and if I fumble, I fumble. Like it's not the end of the world, right? Because again, you know, I see peop like I go to a lot of speaking events and I see some of these people on stage and I'm like thinking, Wow, there's so many other qualified people, but the only difference is is that they're more willing to put themselves out there than others, right? And I had to learn that the hard way. 'Cause I was always jealous and not realizing, you know what, it's I have to make that change. Right. Instead of, you know, getting mad, comparing myself, which is a very Asian thing to do, I said, No, I need to change. I need to do something different. I can do this. If other people can do it, why can't I? You know, what makes them different from me? It's just having the tenacity, the resilience to keep moving forward and just you know, just keep doing it until you get to that result, right? I mean, I read a lot of like stories where people were like, I just decided to You know, reach out to a thousand a thousand people, right? And it led them to all these opportunities. But, you know, if you think about it, like not everyone's gonna do that, right? Because it is a lot of work. But, you know, if you keep doing it, it is gonna land you opportunities. You just have to really believe that you are capable of doing it. And mistakes are okay. Mistakes are a good thing because it helps you learn from them, right? You can learn what you did wrong. Like, ⁓ okay, I did this wrong, I'm gonna fix it. ⁓ I did this one wrong, I'm gonna fix it. So cause you're not gonna learn if you you never make a mistake, right? You're just gonna be stuck and you're not gonna learn anything. But when we make mistakes, when we show up, like even me, sometimes if I go on stage and I'm like talking and I'm like, ⁓ I shouldn't have done that. ⁓ I need to figure this out. ⁓ I need to be more clear on this. Like now I'm like, ⁓ okay, now all the mistakes that I've made, I can correct it now.
speaker-1: Yeah, that's so good. and a lot of it is unlearning the the perfectionism we've talked about. Like I I do that too. Like I'll I'll notice, ⁓ I made a mistake in a talk or something like that. And instead of focusing on the ninety-eight percent that I did really well, it's like I'll fixate on that one thing. But I've been learning to shift that mindset and to focus on the ninety-eight percent versus that two percent. But it it is shifting that mindset like you're saying and being proud ⁓ being proud when we okay we didn't maybe we didn't get the job but at least we applied and if we hadn't applied we wouldn't have been had any shot whatsoever. And and I love what you said about okay, the thousand opportunities. Maybe it's not okay, you're not gonna start off with reaching out to a thousand people, but you could reach out to like one or two people. And then build that muscle of of confidence, right? So China, it has been so great being with you today. You have so much ⁓ wisdom and it's just been so cool hearing how you followed the poll in your own life and how it's led you to where you are. How can people get a hold of you or learn more about you?
speaker-0: Yeah, you can ⁓ check out my website, Sheenayapchan.com. I have some free resources that you can do, like a self-confidence quiz ⁓ personality type, ⁓ a visible framework toolkit, the framework that I've shared at many different conferences and companies. ⁓ you can also check out my books, The Tow of Self-Confidence or Bridging the Confidence Gap on all major bookstores, ⁓ book book retailers. ⁓ you can also connect with me on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, TikTok everywhere. But if you forget anything that I mentioned, just literally Google my name, Sheena Yap Chan. I'm literally the only Sheena Yap Chan on the internet. So I'm not hard to find.
speaker-1: Everywhere. Okay, well thank you for being here with us today for the Follow the Pull podcast.
