Jonathan Markwell on Customer Interviews

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This file was generated by Descript

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Welcome to empathy deployed the
podcast where you can experience

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an example customer interview.

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Every week.

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You'll discover new perspectives on
different software products and improve

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your customer interview technique.

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As I attempt to do the same.

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I'm Jonathan Markwell and this
episode is a little different.

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Morgan Williams approached me to ask if
he could interview me about my experience.

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At customer interviews.

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I responded that I'd be happy to.

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But it might be fun if we
recorded it for this podcast.

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Morgan agreed.

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So here's the interview

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Morgan: good.

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See Jonathan, how you doing?

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Jon: Good.

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Hi, Morgan.

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Morgan: I want you to jump straight in and
really just get a little bit of background

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about yourself, kind of what you're up to.

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So if you're able to share that, that'd
be a fantastic way to sort of kick things

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Jon: off.

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Okay.

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Um, uh, I guess I do, um,
Ferris different things.

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Um, I'm best known for running
a coworking space, uh, in

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Brighton, which is 13 years old.

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Um, and, um, has a little
over a hundred members.

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Um, these days.

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And there's a sort of very much sort of
member run focused on, on individuals.

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Uh, but, um, sort of before that and
alongside that, um, I've been very

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into, um, developing web software,
um, built some own, uh, software and

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service businesses and, um, worked
on a, on a bunch of other people's.

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Over the years.

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Uh, and, um, and I understand you're,
you're interested in talking to

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me, um, for my interest in customer
interviews and experience in doing that.

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And, uh, so I've realized over the
years, customer interviews, um,

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have been particularly important
to a lot of the more successful,

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um, businesses I've worked on.

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And I realized that, um, recently
I want to get better at that.

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Hence starting.

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Morgan: And at the moment you're
saying, is you just doing the

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podcast at the moment alongside
the sort of coworking space?

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Jon: Uh, yeah, I mean, the
coworking spaces are very part-time

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as a bit of a labor of love
to be honest, um, uh, venture.

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Um, and my, my main gig is, uh,
is consulting for different, um,

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relatively small SAS businesses.

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So I mostly work with B2B software service
businesses that are under 1 million.

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Um, Okay.

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Okay.

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Morgan: Fair.

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Um, at the moment, what were the
sort of the three things you've

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got going on at the moment?

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Um, do you conduct, or, so you
do collect any feedback from your

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customers at the moment or users
or from, uh, the people that you

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Jon: do consulting work for?

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Yeah.

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So, um, it's fairly informal with
members of the skiff coworking space.

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Um, I tried to talk to a
couple of members every week.

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Um, I kind of felt I
should probably do that.

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Um, a bit more formally to, um,
the, uh, with my consulting clients.

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Um, I've increasingly be doing, um,
customer interviews with their customers.

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Um, uh, so I usually
conduct the interview.

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Often with them on the call as well.

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Um, and, um, so sort of help them
get into the practice, uh, uh, turn

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around six of those, uh, I think
this year, um, need to do more.

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Um, and, um, and I've done about
six of my own for a few different

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things earlier in the year.

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Um, for.

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Exploring some stuff around
potential software products.

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Um, oh, and actually there, I've
done another five with another

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client, um, as well this year.

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So I'm trying to get into the habit of
doing it quite a lot with clients, um, and

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some of their customers more into it than.

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Morgan: And besides user interviews,
do you do any other forms of sort of

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feedback collection, whether it could
be surveys, uh, NPS, um, anything

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like that or some sort of user

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Jon: Intercom widget?

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Yeah, I've done a lot of surveys
in a cost, um, in particular,

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uh, MPS, um, based ones.

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I've had a lot of good
experience with I've tried.

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Do that less.

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So more recently.

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Um, uh, so yeah, I've, there's,
there's various first kinds of,

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I think I've sent out this year.

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I think surveys that I've probably
reached about three or 4,000.

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People over about three different
or four different surveys.

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And I've got a couple more that I'm hoping
to get out before the end of the year.

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Okay.

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Morgan: And is there any
reason why you do those?

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I actually, why you're
signed to do them as often.

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Jon: Yeah.

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So, um, I'm trying to understand,
um, what, what customers want and,

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and that's some, um, I have a few
different kinds of surveys that I do.

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Uh, so, um, Often I'll start with, um,
an NPS style survey and it's not, I don't

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use the MPS question so much, um, now, but
I lost a question that's easy to answer.

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Um, it could be a yes, no, maybe
question or it could be on some

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kind of scale and then followed
that with a followup question.

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Um, primarily to get the follow-up,
uh, um, And, uh, and so I can

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get a, get a bit of qualitative
data on what's on their mind.

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Um, what's um, about in the context of
the product, um, or business, um, that

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we're talking about, uh, and see if
there are any things, um, that come out.

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But, uh, and then, um, I'll either take
that and use that as a reason to talk

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to them more in a customer interview.

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Um, okay.

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Uh, and I, I that's my preferred
approach now is to sort of, especially

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when there's a lot of customers use
a very short survey as a way to sort

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of start a conversation with someone.

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And then, um, see if a reply to that.

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I can turn into a, uh, a customer
interviewer and I can get a lot

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of a richer set of information,
um, from him or from them.

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Um, and then the third approach is to
do, uh, which I've jumped to before.

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Um, trying to, um, hold off on the
longer survey, not, not super long, but

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maybe sort of eight to 10 questions.

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Um, Trying to add a sort of quality
quantitative dimension to what

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I've learned from customer survey.

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Morgan: Um, what was the reason
for stopping the sort of long form

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Jon: surveys?

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Um, it's not, it's not
that I've stopped them.

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It's just that I felt I should always do
at least, um, uh, you know, reasonable

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number of customer interviews,
burst, um, before jumping into.

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Um, into, into surveys because
people don't like doing surveys,

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don't get many responses from them.

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And so the more the survey is built
to what, you know, to some things that

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we've heard directly from customers.

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Um, the better.

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So for example, uh, I quite like having
questions, um, asking things like what's

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most important, um, T um, either in terms
of your business goal with this product

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or in terms of the next, um, Product, uh,
the next feature that we should work on.

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Um, and ideally I'd like a list
of things that I've already heard

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in using words that customers
have used in each of those lists.

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And then people choose the most important
and least important from that list.

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And that gives us the, um, quantitative.

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I mentioned.

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Okay, fine.

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Morgan: So, correct me if I'm wrong.

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It's mainly using kind of the surveys
has that, um, initial, let's almost

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validate, who's willing to at least
respond to a survey and then using them

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as almost like a funnel to funnel down
to people where we can then say, Hey,

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look, these people responded, let's try
and get them onto a, more of a customer

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user interviews to get some deeper
insights from them, kind of that roughly.

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Jon: Yeah.

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Well, if the two surveys tie this
very short form survey definitely

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has that approach and sort of a way,
an easy way to open a conversation,

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um, with, with, with people.

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Um, and in some cases, filter, um, to
people that are happy or not happy, um,

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maybe say in the past one of use NPS,
um, we might specifically, uh, try and.

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Um, a number of people that gave us a
10 and maybe also we decide we don't

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always talk to the, the less happy
people because, um, like I've often found

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it better to focus on the people that
are happy and sort of build on that.

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Um, and also they're
more willing to, to talk.

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Um, that's when.

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Things are going relatively well
for those products, by the way.

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So if, if there is some growth or if
most people are coming back as, as

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positive, not focusing too much on the,
on the people that run are unhappy.

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So yeah, I guess

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Morgan: it's always harder to reach
out to people that don't seem very

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positive about the product experience or
whatnot and asking them for more time.

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Jon: Um,

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Morgan: really why do you
do customer interviews then?

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Um, or at least prioritize those above
all the other different feedback then.

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Jon: Uh, just that the amount I learned
from a customer interview is so much

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more, um, I can, uh, you know, I,
uh, I guess the, uh, go the, the name

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of the, of the, of the podcast, um,
kinds of says in empathy deployed,

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um, I'm trying to empathize with
people and really make sure that.

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Um, where we're creating something
that fits their, um, uh, their needs.

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And we've been in with their worldview
and their perspective on things, making

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sure it's, um, the product for them.

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If, if they're the right customer, For us.

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Um, so I guess, yeah, sometimes you
might, there are customer interviews

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where your, um, and it's only through
the customer interview that you

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realize maybe this person isn't the
right person to be a customer as well.

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Um, which doesn't always come
through in a customer survey.

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Um, uh, and so if you've got that
richer, um, view of them, you can

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then, uh, decide how much weight
to give, um, The their responses,

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um, in, in that interview as well.

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Morgan: Okay.

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Found what's your process by the way,
for actually conducting user interviews.

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And that can be sort of from know
early stage, how do we identify who to

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interview through to actually conducting
it and then all the way out to the other

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side of analyzing, how does that entire

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process

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Jon: look for you?

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Uh, it's a, it's evolving a lot.

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Um, in this year I've been
actually taking time to learn.

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More about it.

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Um, uh, and, um, I'm, I'm really
treating, um, Michelle Hanson's book,

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uh, deploy empathy as a guide to me.

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Um, and I'm trying to sort of get
good at the preface, a little, the

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practices that are in there, but
obviously merging it with some of

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the things, um, that, that I also do.

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Um, so my.

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Process is, um, uh, my, I guess let's
just take my most recent, um, uh,

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larger scale, um, process of a client.

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As an example, we did, um, a survey
asking, um, one multiple choice,

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um, question, um, And, uh, in that
case, this was for a developer tool.

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And so we asked, um,
which stack they're using.

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So something really easy
that they can answer.

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So using Ruby PIF and JavaScript,
um, cause it's very difficult

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for us to see from, from our EDS.

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And it impacts a lot on
what work that we do.

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So just getting that as a,
um, one data point before it

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would definitely be useful.

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And then follow it up,
um, with, um, question.

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I can't remember exactly
what that question was.

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Um, But it was something, um,
uh, like what maybe what do you

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value most about the product?

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Um, and we would then, and, and,
and, and a final question as well.

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Is there anything else
that you'd like to say?

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And so that just gives us a bit of,
um, Uh, view on customers and then we

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could use that to follow up and say,
well, we want to make sure we get a

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good range of people using different,
um, platforms, uh, for the, uh,

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for, for some customer interviews.

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Um, and because we had a little bit
of information from the survey, we

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can make each email to them personal.

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So then it would be a
personal email to each one.

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Um, rather than any boat kind of email to
invite them to, uh, an, uh, an interview.

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Um, and we also added an incentive
preemptively, um, just because we felt.

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From previous knowledge of
how that audience, um, works

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with that particular product.

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Um, we thought it'd be quite
difficult to get that time.

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Um, and developers, uh, um, you know, I
don't love getting on phone calls as well.

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Um, and also develop as a
relative relative well-paid.

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So we didn't think we could give them
a direct financial, uh, incentive

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since these are all customers, by the
way that we're focusing on, rather

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than people that have been in trouble.

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Whatever.

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And so we, um, we offered, uh, to make
a donation to a charity or cause if

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they, if they choice, um, uh, and, um,
yeah, they, they, they appreciate that.

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Not sure how much it helped, but it felt
good to everybody, I guess, and, and,

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uh, got to support quite a wide range
of, um, different causes on the way.

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Um, Uh, but yes, it will be,
get them, get them to call.

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And, um, I used a script, very similar
to the, um, script and, um, deploy,

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uh, empathy, um, for, uh, for, uh,
for a customer, an existing customer.

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Oh,

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Morgan: by the way, the, uh, the
sort of incentive, the charity theme.

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That's brilliant.

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I really liked that.

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Um, I might even try and test
that well, what's the results

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like of that compared to maybe a
different incentive you used before,

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Jon: or just no incentive?

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Uh, I don't have data really to compare.

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Um, I know that, you know, it
felt, it felt better, everyone.

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Um, you know, we got some really
good feedback on doing it.

00:15:23.525 --> 00:15:25.355
Um, and the people that we.

00:15:26.480 --> 00:15:29.240
Uh, some of the charities that people
picked it, you know, they just had a

00:15:29.240 --> 00:15:31.730
donation form, but some of them, we
had to approach to be able to make the

00:15:31.730 --> 00:15:33.770
donation and they loved it as well.

00:15:33.800 --> 00:15:40.670
So, um, uh, yeah, so it was,
it just felt much more, um, uh,

00:15:40.910 --> 00:15:45.410
much nicer, I think, all around
compared to, to an Amazon voucher.

00:15:45.920 --> 00:15:49.010
Um, and a couple of people we spoke
to were saying, like, usually with

00:15:49.010 --> 00:15:51.140
these things, they get offered in
an Amazon voucher and it's like,

00:15:51.140 --> 00:15:52.340
I don't need an Amazon voucher.

00:15:52.340 --> 00:15:52.970
I just charged.

00:15:54.020 --> 00:15:57.590
Books that I buy to my
company or, you know, yeah.

00:15:58.580 --> 00:15:58.850
No, that's

00:15:58.850 --> 00:15:59.030
Morgan: pretty.

00:15:59.110 --> 00:15:59.200
Yeah.

00:15:59.200 --> 00:16:00.710
As soon as you said that,
I thought I caught us.

00:16:00.740 --> 00:16:03.530
That's that's a real nice and
creative way of approaching it.

00:16:03.950 --> 00:16:07.640
Um, just getting back to the
process you spoke all the way out

00:16:07.640 --> 00:16:08.960
to, or kind of getting on the call.

00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:11.900
What about afterwards in terms
of what do you do when you, or

00:16:11.900 --> 00:16:14.780
what's your process when you've got
the, you conducted the interview?

00:16:14.780 --> 00:16:16.220
What did you do with that
information afterwards?

00:16:17.900 --> 00:16:18.620
Jon: Uh, so.

00:16:20.360 --> 00:16:23.210
Never able to take notes
during an interview.

00:16:23.300 --> 00:16:26.630
So I always ask permission to record.

00:16:26.630 --> 00:16:30.410
Unfortunately, every one of them
has, um, uh, been, been happy

00:16:30.650 --> 00:16:35.750
with me to, to record, uh, and ask
permission to share that internally,

00:16:36.050 --> 00:16:39.530
as I say, with some recent customer
interviews, the, um, my client's been

00:16:39.530 --> 00:16:42.500
on the call at the same time, but
he wasn't able to make all of them.

00:16:42.500 --> 00:16:46.750
And so, um, I would share it with them.

00:16:46.840 --> 00:16:49.960
Um, I think the, I was mostly
doing those interviews via zoom.

00:16:50.080 --> 00:16:54.640
Um, and so hitting the record button
in zoom, once they're happy for

00:16:54.640 --> 00:16:59.590
me to hit record, and then I share
the recordings via Google drive.

00:17:00.160 --> 00:17:08.050
Um, and the, so my process, um, then
is that I I'll always, I'm not going

00:17:08.050 --> 00:17:12.040
to jump to any conclusions just
from that first, um, run through.

00:17:12.550 --> 00:17:13.010
I'll always go.

00:17:14.450 --> 00:17:20.870
Uh, and, um, and rewatch them,
uh, and I've used, um, descript,

00:17:21.140 --> 00:17:27.500
uh, to help turn the interviews
into textual, um, documents.

00:17:27.620 --> 00:17:30.680
Uh, and, um, yeah, now.

00:17:31.910 --> 00:17:32.330
Right.

00:17:32.600 --> 00:17:37.070
Write some notes, um, to, to, to
pull out some of the key things

00:17:37.280 --> 00:17:43.670
from, from those we realized, um,
uh, with those customer interviews

00:17:43.670 --> 00:17:45.290
that we did, we're really lucky.

00:17:45.290 --> 00:17:45.950
We had some.

00:17:46.970 --> 00:17:49.310
Well, you could say lucky,
maybe not lucky, but everyone

00:17:49.310 --> 00:17:50.870
was really happy customers.

00:17:51.140 --> 00:17:55.880
Um, there wasn't that feedback loop didn't
really exist that much for that company.

00:17:55.880 --> 00:17:58.930
So it was wonderful to hear all the, all
the good things, but it also provided

00:17:58.930 --> 00:18:05.990
an opportunity to, um, uh, to, to
use some of that material potentially

00:18:05.990 --> 00:18:09.620
to create testimonials, um, so that
we could get some of their voice

00:18:09.620 --> 00:18:11.990
onto the, onto the website as well.

00:18:12.260 --> 00:18:22.115
Um, my mate actually, uh, uh, An error,
um, with one of the early interviews, um,

00:18:22.775 --> 00:18:28.745
in that I went back to the interviewee
with my notes and I'd written the notes.

00:18:29.345 --> 00:18:34.355
Uh, Pure's something that was quite
sort of case study or testimonial and my

00:18:34.355 --> 00:18:43.595
probably more, more marketing orientate
it than, than really, um, Uh, it w it

00:18:43.595 --> 00:18:50.845
was capturing the situation, but, um,
I think it felt a bit much for the, for

00:18:50.845 --> 00:18:55.205
the person that they didn't want that to
be something that was in public, the way

00:18:55.205 --> 00:18:58.475
that they had described that some of the
problems that they, they had experienced.

00:18:58.925 --> 00:19:00.365
Uh, and so I D I didn't really.

00:19:00.890 --> 00:19:04.760
Handle that so well, whereas the others
I've kind of asked at the end, if they'd

00:19:04.770 --> 00:19:08.600
be happy to it, especially if it's been
a very positive interview, if they'd

00:19:08.600 --> 00:19:14.900
be happy to, um, to have a testimonial,
especially when some of them are sort

00:19:14.900 --> 00:19:17.670
of gushing in the interview and really
wants to say how happy they were.

00:19:18.155 --> 00:19:21.575
Anyway, they kind of, it was very easy
for the, you know, it was obviously they

00:19:21.575 --> 00:19:22.925
won, they would be happy to do that.

00:19:22.925 --> 00:19:27.635
And, and, uh, and they wanted to,
and so, um, we were able to turn a

00:19:27.635 --> 00:19:32.075
lot of those into, um, testimonials
as well as giving us, um, good

00:19:32.085 --> 00:19:35.465
insight into things that they'd
like us to focus on, um, working on.

00:19:37.160 --> 00:19:37.970
Morgan: I found it was quite nice.

00:19:38.060 --> 00:19:38.150
Yeah.

00:19:38.150 --> 00:19:40.910
I guess that's the upside of having
positive, positive customers.

00:19:40.910 --> 00:19:44.690
You can spin each one into a testimonial,
I guess that's the sort of inner

00:19:44.690 --> 00:19:47.360
entrepreneur and you're trying to look
for there and opportunities to find

00:19:47.360 --> 00:19:48.380
Jon: some social proof.

00:19:48.920 --> 00:19:49.190
Yeah.

00:19:49.490 --> 00:19:52.910
The kits, I think, is a mistake
for me to focus too much on it.

00:19:52.910 --> 00:19:56.750
Especially with that early one
in that, um, it kind of bias.

00:19:57.230 --> 00:19:58.010
Perspective.

00:19:58.290 --> 00:20:00.650
Like if I, if that's what I'm
trying to get, I might not hear

00:20:00.650 --> 00:20:02.210
the things that I need to hear.

00:20:02.390 --> 00:20:05.570
Um, some I'm sort of,
I'm conscious of that.

00:20:05.570 --> 00:20:12.425
And especially as it could, um, You
know, have a, have a negative impact on

00:20:12.425 --> 00:20:17.405
particularly worried about that, that
customer, um, that, that was put out by

00:20:17.405 --> 00:20:22.895
what we came back with because it sort of
negates any benefit of listening to them.

00:20:23.015 --> 00:20:27.155
Um, and obviously the, the main
thing that, um, you know, the most

00:20:27.155 --> 00:20:28.955
important thing about customer
interviews is just listening to

00:20:28.955 --> 00:20:32.375
people, not trying to, you know, get
some benefit, like a testimonial.

00:20:32.945 --> 00:20:36.485
Out of it is trying to understand
what their perspective really is.

00:20:36.785 --> 00:20:39.045
Um, and, uh, yeah.

00:20:39.045 --> 00:20:41.855
And then being able to feed that
back into making the product better

00:20:41.855 --> 00:20:46.565
for them, rather than making your
business more money by using them.

00:20:46.955 --> 00:20:49.805
Um, it's not, you know,
everyone wants to be doing,

00:20:51.185 --> 00:20:51.395
Morgan: yeah.

00:20:51.395 --> 00:20:53.915
I guess that comes back down
to the sort of empathy thing.

00:20:53.915 --> 00:20:54.365
Doesn't it.

00:20:54.575 --> 00:20:57.125
As opposed to thinking about what
can I get out of the interview?

00:20:58.325 --> 00:21:00.935
Yeah, I'm just pulling
up on the process then.

00:21:01.295 --> 00:21:03.755
Uh, and you touched a little bit
on the, kind of, one of the pains

00:21:03.755 --> 00:21:06.575
there, but how did you actually,
how'd you find you the entire process

00:21:06.575 --> 00:21:07.835
for conducting use of interviews?

00:21:07.835 --> 00:21:11.195
You know, any pains problems or, um,
you know, on the other side, is there

00:21:11.195 --> 00:21:12.095
anything you particularly enjoy?

00:21:14.180 --> 00:21:22.070
Jon: Uh, I, I guess I struggle with
lots of it, which is why I've started

00:21:22.580 --> 00:21:26.510
this podcast to try and get myself
into more of a habit of doing it.

00:21:26.750 --> 00:21:32.300
Um, it's, you know, my, uh, my
default preference isn't to talk

00:21:32.300 --> 00:21:36.230
to people, um, to go out of my
way to talk to people, uh, a lot.

00:21:36.320 --> 00:21:42.680
Um, I, uh, Prefer a day spent with
my heading code or that's what

00:21:42.740 --> 00:21:44.810
I would choose, um, beforehand.

00:21:44.810 --> 00:21:50.240
So I, you know, I had some anxiety
in the run-up to, uh, to interviews.

00:21:50.330 --> 00:21:57.350
Um, I, you know, I, I prefer an interview
where I can the, the time between, um,

00:21:57.410 --> 00:22:00.980
planning it and then, uh, it happening
is very short, which actually this kind

00:22:00.980 --> 00:22:06.170
of was today, um, in terms of finding
this specific time, and I'm not sort of.

00:22:07.385 --> 00:22:13.205
Um, so much, uh, then when it comes
into the practicalities of it, something

00:22:13.205 --> 00:22:17.165
I've struggled with, which is maybe,
well, actually it's been a situation

00:22:17.165 --> 00:22:20.765
with, with within two years that I've
been doing, not for podcasts, but having

00:22:20.945 --> 00:22:25.595
audio trouble, especially because I'm
not replying, not relying on notes.

00:22:25.595 --> 00:22:29.405
I am relying on the quality of the
audio and I've had some customers

00:22:29.405 --> 00:22:32.465
where there's been some background
noise has been so bad that it's been

00:22:32.465 --> 00:22:34.835
difficult for me even to listen to it.

00:22:34.925 --> 00:22:35.285
Oh, really?

00:22:36.390 --> 00:22:39.930
Uh, and so yeah, getting,
getting the audio quality.

00:22:40.170 --> 00:22:41.400
Um, good.

00:22:41.670 --> 00:22:47.460
Um, uh, and then just getting, I
think practice, it's just getting

00:22:47.700 --> 00:22:55.175
past the awkwardness of, uh, starting
the, um, The conversation, but I

00:22:55.195 --> 00:22:58.565
tell you what, after I always, even
though it's, it's quite painful for

00:22:58.565 --> 00:23:00.965
me to start and to, to get into it.

00:23:01.475 --> 00:23:03.485
Um, afterwards I always
feel very good about it.

00:23:03.515 --> 00:23:07.535
I mean, especially when it's talking to
someone, that's very happy about the tool

00:23:07.835 --> 00:23:13.205
that they're using have not had many,
um, interviews with people that are.

00:23:14.440 --> 00:23:18.010
Um, unhappy or angry, um,
about, about something.

00:23:18.100 --> 00:23:23.050
Um, so, uh, you know, here, it would be
useful for me to have that experience

00:23:23.050 --> 00:23:27.820
at some point, but on the whole, I, um,
come away quite energized from having

00:23:27.820 --> 00:23:33.920
the conversation hearing from, um, uh,
hearing from people and hearing new.

00:23:35.880 --> 00:23:38.330
Morgan: Yeah, I guess when speaking
to a sort of happy customers, always

00:23:38.330 --> 00:23:41.930
quite, quite, quite pumping or
rewarding, at least coming away from,

00:23:41.930 --> 00:23:46.070
uh, from speaking to them, I just
wanted to jump into soapstone about

00:23:46.070 --> 00:23:49.280
a little bit more on the specifics of
the different parts of the process.

00:23:50.620 --> 00:23:54.580
You spoke about kind of using that
survey initially to, um, sort of

00:23:55.480 --> 00:23:58.540
almost like a feeler to see if there's
anyone out there that's kind of wanting

00:23:58.540 --> 00:24:01.840
to answer a little survey and using
them sort of filter down and, and

00:24:01.840 --> 00:24:03.250
approach them with the user interview.

00:24:03.670 --> 00:24:09.190
Um, how'd you find the process of actually
finding those specific people, um, to

00:24:09.190 --> 00:24:10.630
reach out to in terms of the survey.

00:24:13.780 --> 00:24:16.300
Um, kind of email that she

00:24:16.300 --> 00:24:16.660
Jon: sent out.

00:24:17.110 --> 00:24:17.440
Yeah.

00:24:17.440 --> 00:24:21.910
And the surveys, um, I've done,
uh, I've initially focused

00:24:21.910 --> 00:24:23.470
on customer paying customers.

00:24:24.620 --> 00:24:32.240
Um, and in the case of a client, which
hadn't thousands of customers, uh, I

00:24:32.240 --> 00:24:37.340
think we chose a fairly random sample
of a couple of hundred to do, uh, an

00:24:37.340 --> 00:24:44.540
initial, um, send to before going to the
whole, um, audience of customers again,

00:24:44.660 --> 00:24:48.350
um, rather than the young customers, just
so that we could make sure there wasn't

00:24:48.350 --> 00:24:52.310
anything really stupid, that was wrong
with the survey that we hadn't spotted.

00:24:52.670 --> 00:25:01.095
Um, Uh, but we, um, really this,
the surveys then what would use to

00:25:01.485 --> 00:25:06.215
segment further, even in either in
terms of the fact that they replied

00:25:06.225 --> 00:25:13.365
a tool or, um, uh, or in terms of
what they, what they responded with.

00:25:14.025 --> 00:25:22.455
Um, but I don't, um, I haven't
done anything specific, uh, to.

00:25:23.255 --> 00:25:27.905
Target people for customer interviews
beyond that, um, have thought about it.

00:25:28.235 --> 00:25:37.175
Uh, um, but often I, yeah, I mean,
there's two challenges with targeting it.

00:25:37.175 --> 00:25:44.075
More one is I can bias it towards, you
know, the, the well-known companies, um,

00:25:44.765 --> 00:25:51.800
that, uh, It would be really great to
get a testimonial from, and that it's,

00:25:51.800 --> 00:25:55.700
uh, you know, then it's biasing the
interview somewhat from there because

00:25:55.700 --> 00:25:58.340
I'm focused too much on, on that.

00:25:58.760 --> 00:26:10.070
Um, uh, um, I've forgotten what the
other I'm aware I was going to do.

00:26:10.960 --> 00:26:15.060
I mean, it could be based on how
long they've been customers or,

00:26:15.060 --> 00:26:18.730
or how much, um, how much they
spent, uh, consider doing that.

00:26:19.150 --> 00:26:25.240
But the main issue is that, uh,
the response rate isn't always that

00:26:25.240 --> 00:26:29.380
high, um, unless their customers,
because they, these are, I should

00:26:29.380 --> 00:26:32.550
also say, um, At difference.

00:26:32.580 --> 00:26:34.020
If I did this with this gift going.

00:26:34.970 --> 00:26:36.200
The coworking space.

00:26:36.290 --> 00:26:41.570
Um, I run, it would be different, but
with the B2B SAS that I work on, which

00:26:41.570 --> 00:26:48.170
have mostly very low touch customers,
um, uh, the response rate is quite low.

00:26:48.680 --> 00:26:55.160
Um, anyway, uh, and so you can't be that
picky, um, when you've only got a couple

00:26:55.160 --> 00:26:58.940
of hundred customers, uh, and you're, and
you're trying to get another customer and

00:26:58.940 --> 00:27:05.180
three, I find it quite hard to, um, To
convince them, um, although to be fair,

00:27:05.180 --> 00:27:10.430
we've not actually gone wide with that,
um, incentives that we tried with the.

00:27:11.390 --> 00:27:12.380
With the smaller group.

00:27:12.890 --> 00:27:13.730
Um, right.

00:27:14.330 --> 00:27:17.360
So still landing on that.

00:27:17.480 --> 00:27:17.720
And

00:27:17.720 --> 00:27:22.400
Morgan: I presume that's kind of this
survey sent out via email or was it in,

00:27:22.530 --> 00:27:23.240
Jon: in software?

00:27:23.510 --> 00:27:25.040
Oh, that's email, email.

00:27:25.430 --> 00:27:25.610
Yeah.

00:27:27.500 --> 00:27:28.000
Morgan: And really.

00:27:29.225 --> 00:27:30.665
How much time I'm going to guess.

00:27:30.845 --> 00:27:33.365
It might be quite difficult for
you, especially from the consulting

00:27:33.365 --> 00:27:36.035
side of things, because I guess
you have consulting for a company.

00:27:36.425 --> 00:27:39.605
Um, but you might know, I mean, how
much time and sort of money maybe on

00:27:39.605 --> 00:27:43.355
a weekly or monthly basis, are you
or the companies themselves putting

00:27:43.355 --> 00:27:44.975
into getting feedback from customers?

00:27:45.215 --> 00:27:47.375
Um, you know, that could
be all feedback methods.

00:27:47.585 --> 00:27:49.655
Um, user interviews, NPS surveys.

00:27:51.050 --> 00:27:57.500
Jon: Um, some of the smaller customers I
work with, although we try to get into a

00:27:57.500 --> 00:28:03.080
habit of doing it, it's, it's probably a
quarterly, um, exercise on the best case,

00:28:03.500 --> 00:28:07.915
um, rather than an ongoing, um, Process.

00:28:07.915 --> 00:28:12.455
There is no exception to that, which
I'm mentioning a minute, but with the

00:28:12.475 --> 00:28:18.145
people that, um, where we're looking
at doing this quarterly, um, just

00:28:18.145 --> 00:28:21.145
because we've got where we're sort
of being generous and doing lots of

00:28:21.145 --> 00:28:27.490
different things, um, So we might send
out a survey and then have a try and

00:28:27.490 --> 00:28:29.860
have a week or two of, uh, interviews.

00:28:30.100 --> 00:28:35.830
Um, I guess the cost there is to
combination of the incentives and,

00:28:36.070 --> 00:28:42.100
um, my time and that, um, eclipses
any other costs, like having software

00:28:42.100 --> 00:28:45.460
and things that we're using that
might be 50 or a hundred dollars.

00:28:45.790 --> 00:28:48.895
Um, Uh, that we pay for.

00:28:49.165 --> 00:28:58.135
Um, but, um, uh, we probably spent
over a thousand dollars on incentives

00:28:58.375 --> 00:29:07.675
last time and, uh, a multiple of my
time, um, on that, especially when, uh,

00:29:08.575 --> 00:29:12.385
uh, you know, it's probably about 50%
of my attention when we're doing it.

00:29:12.925 --> 00:29:16.755
Um, Uh, 50% of my
attention with that client.

00:29:17.025 --> 00:29:21.735
So it might be up to a
week of my time solidly,

00:29:23.325 --> 00:29:27.435
Morgan: sorry, for both of your time
and for the sort of thousand pounds

00:29:27.435 --> 00:29:29.565
worth of incentives per quarter,

00:29:29.565 --> 00:29:35.475
Jon: you'd say, uh, yeah, I mean,
we, we could probably, it depends

00:29:35.475 --> 00:29:36.645
how we adjust the incentives.

00:29:36.645 --> 00:29:37.605
We went quite high.

00:29:37.615 --> 00:29:38.595
This was $100.

00:29:40.445 --> 00:29:41.585
Or a hundred pounds incentive.

00:29:41.585 --> 00:29:46.775
I think we went probably pounds for people
in the UK, um, mix of us, UK and Europe.

00:29:47.615 --> 00:29:54.545
Um, and, uh, yeah, but the,
the incentive was probably,

00:29:55.085 --> 00:29:58.745
um, you know, 20% of the costs.

00:29:59.225 --> 00:29:59.525
Um,

00:30:02.945 --> 00:30:06.275
Morgan: and then the time you said that's
a sort of a week's worth of your time per

00:30:06.275 --> 00:30:08.195
quarter for that one specific customer.

00:30:08.195 --> 00:30:08.945
Is that, is that correct?

00:30:10.100 --> 00:30:13.460
Jon: Yeah, I reckon that's
probably about right solid week.

00:30:13.520 --> 00:30:14.510
Obviously it would be spread.

00:30:16.220 --> 00:30:16.490
Yeah.

00:30:19.910 --> 00:30:20.480
Morgan: Perfect.

00:30:20.900 --> 00:30:23.660
Um, and really just wanted to
actually take it back a little bit.

00:30:23.720 --> 00:30:25.850
Um, sort of go a bit more fundamental.

00:30:25.850 --> 00:30:26.190
We've done.

00:30:26.250 --> 00:30:28.640
We dived a lot into sort of a
user interview specifically.

00:30:29.030 --> 00:30:30.260
Um, but it'd be great to understand that.

00:30:31.235 --> 00:30:36.095
Kind of what your biggest problems
at the moment with actually providing

00:30:36.095 --> 00:30:39.395
that consultancy service to those
companies, anything that jumps to

00:30:39.395 --> 00:30:43.685
mind about kind of the process that
you carry out with them, or just the

00:30:43.685 --> 00:30:44.825
general work that you do with them?

00:30:47.585 --> 00:30:52.115
Jon: Um, they're all different.

00:30:52.415 --> 00:30:59.315
Um, uh, I guess one challenge
is some of those companies have.

00:31:00.740 --> 00:31:06.290
Send regular emails or they'll
have phases where they're doing an

00:31:06.290 --> 00:31:08.300
email campaign over a few weeks.

00:31:09.230 --> 00:31:14.540
And when that's the case,
it's a challenge to.

00:31:15.695 --> 00:31:20.255
Uh, do a survey and do a series of
customer interviews, um, in that

00:31:20.255 --> 00:31:24.875
same window of time, um, because
they don't want to overwhelm

00:31:25.205 --> 00:31:28.145
customers with, um, with emails.

00:31:28.295 --> 00:31:32.345
And I don't want to send different
emails with different messages

00:31:32.345 --> 00:31:35.285
from the same, same company at
the same, same time as well.

00:31:35.645 --> 00:31:38.225
So, uh, that can be.

00:31:38.980 --> 00:31:41.950
I checked that can just then
put things back by a month.

00:31:41.950 --> 00:31:45.430
And so we don't get around to doing
it when we initially wanted to do it.

00:31:46.270 --> 00:31:48.820
Um, I can be a challenge.

00:31:49.210 --> 00:31:49.570
Okay.

00:31:49.900 --> 00:31:58.940
Uh, and I guess, um, Yeah, it would
be, it would be neat to have it

00:31:58.940 --> 00:32:01.700
all a bit more, um, on autopilot.

00:32:01.760 --> 00:32:08.270
Like, I, I like the idea of there always
being customer interview scheduled every

00:32:08.270 --> 00:32:12.800
week and they just happen and it's as
a, as an ongoing process rather than

00:32:12.800 --> 00:32:18.410
being, um, something that ends up getting
bunched up into a quarterly thing.

00:32:19.130 --> 00:32:21.330
Um, Yeah.

00:32:21.330 --> 00:32:23.960
And, um, you know, we started to
look at some ideas for, for getting

00:32:23.960 --> 00:32:26.030
that into place, but it's just.

00:32:27.455 --> 00:32:30.665
Changing habits really,
to, to make that happen.

00:32:30.845 --> 00:32:32.825
Um, and what,

00:32:32.895 --> 00:32:34.175
Morgan: what did you look into after

00:32:34.175 --> 00:32:34.625
Jon: curiosity?

00:32:36.665 --> 00:32:43.115
Um, uh, I guess when I say look into,
I mean, more think about and talk

00:32:43.205 --> 00:32:44.675
and say, should we do it this way?

00:32:44.945 --> 00:32:55.050
Um, Uh, and, um, yeah, again, it's
different, whether there's a discipline

00:32:55.050 --> 00:32:59.670
of sending regular emails, um, to
customers anyway, or, or asking them,

00:32:59.820 --> 00:33:08.610
um, uh, questions, um, if there's no
habit of that, that, that already exists

00:33:08.700 --> 00:33:14.460
or no process for doing that, then, um,
yeah, it's working out how that fits in.

00:33:16.665 --> 00:33:21.885
That you know, is, uh, as a, as a sort
of project, but, um, there've always

00:33:21.885 --> 00:33:24.735
been more urgent and important things.

00:33:24.735 --> 00:33:27.015
I think that we've ended
up working on instead.

00:33:27.765 --> 00:33:28.065
Um,

00:33:30.645 --> 00:33:33.345
Morgan: uh, and the sort of, I mean,
you've pretty much just said it, that

00:33:33.795 --> 00:33:37.125
what's the reason as to why you're
not doing it on a consistent basis

00:33:37.215 --> 00:33:39.915
and are doing it on a quarterly basis.

00:33:40.995 --> 00:33:47.420
Jon: Um, Uh, I guess actually the
prudent way to think about it is

00:33:47.420 --> 00:33:53.270
it, like we know that doing customer
interviews and serving customers is

00:33:53.270 --> 00:33:55.310
good for the company in the long-term.

00:33:55.490 --> 00:34:00.650
And we learned from, from a little
bit from each one, um, but it

00:34:00.650 --> 00:34:02.240
doesn't solve an immediate pain.

00:34:03.320 --> 00:34:07.090
Um, and so, uh, Yeah.

00:34:07.090 --> 00:34:13.360
So it's, uh, it's difficult to,
to justify doing it every week.

00:34:13.360 --> 00:34:16.060
And it's why I've not got into
the habit of doing it myself.

00:34:16.090 --> 00:34:19.450
It's like something I know I should
be doing is like a vitamin, I guess,

00:34:19.450 --> 00:34:22.690
but it doesn't solve an immediate
pain for me now, but it might solve

00:34:22.690 --> 00:34:25.510
a pain for me in six months if I've
been doing it for the last six months.

00:34:26.290 --> 00:34:30.250
Um, so, um, so it's probably
that we think about it like that.

00:34:30.990 --> 00:34:31.350
Uh,

00:34:33.540 --> 00:34:36.900
Morgan: how about in terms of sort
of time and energy and resources,

00:34:36.930 --> 00:34:38.400
does that play a factor in it at all?

00:34:40.440 --> 00:34:45.420
Jon: Yeah, I think, um, it's,
uh, it's a project, not a task.

00:34:45.660 --> 00:34:50.100
Um, uh, and, and so there's
because there's lots of

00:34:50.100 --> 00:34:53.940
different things, uh, to do.

00:34:54.150 --> 00:34:58.200
Um, and, uh, there are
always many things to do.

00:34:58.200 --> 00:35:02.550
It's just, it's just difficult
to, um, to prioritize it.

00:35:03.220 --> 00:35:08.950
Uh, uh, because it's not, it doesn't
feel like it's a simple thing.

00:35:09.580 --> 00:35:12.640
Um, I guess actually, probably going
back to one of your earlier questions,

00:35:14.260 --> 00:35:20.350
um, a challenge in figuring out what
the simplest next task is is, is just,

00:35:20.380 --> 00:35:23.830
you know, maybe if it was, if there was
a list of people and I knew the next

00:35:24.220 --> 00:35:27.520
person that I was just going to send
an email to another task, and there was

00:35:27.520 --> 00:35:33.805
a good reason for it being that person
that might take, um, Make it make it

00:35:33.955 --> 00:35:39.865
easier, um, in some way, because there
isn't, you know, oh, we've got to send

00:35:39.865 --> 00:35:43.735
an email to everybody and make sure that
fits within any other communications,

00:35:43.735 --> 00:35:45.415
which is, which are going out.

00:35:45.685 --> 00:35:52.825
Um, and, uh, yeah, whereas if
it's just a single email to one

00:35:52.825 --> 00:35:56.605
person, it doesn't maybe feel like
it's bigger, a bigger job to do.

00:35:57.355 --> 00:35:57.655
Okay.

00:35:58.495 --> 00:35:58.885
Morgan: Awesome.

00:35:59.095 --> 00:35:59.245
Yeah.

00:35:59.275 --> 00:36:01.795
That's everything for me that was
really, really useful insight.

00:36:03.635 --> 00:36:04.025
Jon: No problem.

00:36:04.115 --> 00:36:04.625
Happy to help.

00:36:05.675 --> 00:36:08.375
Morgan: Did you have any questions
yourself by the way, just out of any

00:36:08.375 --> 00:36:09.845
of those, if you wanted to share,

00:36:10.535 --> 00:36:15.725
Jon: uh, I'm curious about
where, how you've come around

00:36:15.725 --> 00:36:20.000
to exploring this, um, Area.

00:36:20.300 --> 00:36:24.380
Um, I have you, have you conducted
many customer interviews in the past?

00:36:24.380 --> 00:36:25.850
Have you worked in this field?

00:36:26.030 --> 00:36:26.510
Um,

00:36:28.170 --> 00:36:32.030
Morgan: yeah, I mean, I have to share sort
of how almost the, how I got here, um,

00:36:32.060 --> 00:36:34.070
which I guess is, uh, somewhat of a story.

00:36:34.430 --> 00:36:37.790
Um, actually myself and my co-founder
at the moment who is also my

00:36:37.790 --> 00:36:39.650
co-founder and our previous business.

00:36:40.250 --> 00:36:41.850
Um, we may be waiting.

00:36:42.645 --> 00:36:45.885
Way too long to conduct user
interviews, maybe at least

00:36:45.885 --> 00:36:47.235
six months into the business.

00:36:47.235 --> 00:36:47.535
Right.

00:36:47.605 --> 00:36:50.835
And we felt like the problem
was already validated.

00:36:50.835 --> 00:36:53.265
We'd already our paying customers
consistently getting revenue.

00:36:53.265 --> 00:36:55.245
So although there wasn't really a problem.

00:36:56.465 --> 00:36:59.045
Um, we still didn't conduct
user interviews probably

00:36:59.045 --> 00:37:00.845
because we found a bit daunting.

00:37:01.085 --> 00:37:06.115
We don't want to, um, uh, you know,
reach out to customers, annoyed

00:37:06.115 --> 00:37:09.215
them, whatever, when we're trying to
build good relationships with them.

00:37:09.575 --> 00:37:13.655
Um, and then as soon as we did them,
we got so much value from them.

00:37:13.655 --> 00:37:16.175
Whether we were like, oh my God,
we should have done these sooner.

00:37:16.565 --> 00:37:19.235
But the only problem was when
we, when we did go to them and

00:37:19.235 --> 00:37:20.405
they were incredibly sort of.

00:37:20.975 --> 00:37:22.625
The process was still daunting.

00:37:22.775 --> 00:37:27.305
Um, but it was still an incredibly
time intensive energy intensive,

00:37:27.545 --> 00:37:29.795
uh, complex of a process.

00:37:30.095 --> 00:37:34.115
Um, uh, you know, you can, for the
amount of time you put in, especially

00:37:34.115 --> 00:37:37.240
as a founder, like when, like you
said, you know, There's only a few of

00:37:37.240 --> 00:37:42.850
you, you're trying to do dev marketing
design, uh, all these other things.

00:37:43.030 --> 00:37:46.270
Um, it seems as though customer
interviews just, aren't one

00:37:46.270 --> 00:37:47.650
of those top tier priorities.

00:37:47.650 --> 00:37:47.920
Right.

00:37:48.310 --> 00:37:49.810
Um, and so you're trying to do everything.

00:37:49.810 --> 00:37:52.180
And so it really just is one
of those things you just put on

00:37:52.180 --> 00:37:53.470
the back burner for a long time.

00:37:53.860 --> 00:37:56.260
Um, and we sort of just did
the classic, you know, right.

00:37:56.260 --> 00:37:59.080
Let's just walk up some sort of
feedback board and people can drop

00:37:59.080 --> 00:38:02.260
their feedback in, and we're getting
loads of feature requests, but

00:38:02.410 --> 00:38:03.850
we knew what we needed to build.

00:38:04.395 --> 00:38:06.465
Um, cause we were sort
of our own customers.

00:38:06.825 --> 00:38:10.125
Um, we didn't and we were getting
loads of feature requests.

00:38:10.155 --> 00:38:10.965
We, we kind of knew.

00:38:10.965 --> 00:38:13.965
Okay, well, we didn't know why
we didn't know the why behind.

00:38:15.005 --> 00:38:19.085
We didn't under fully understand,
um, our problem, our customers,

00:38:19.205 --> 00:38:21.815
or their processes, what they
did each day, why they did it,

00:38:21.815 --> 00:38:23.075
why they did the things they did.

00:38:23.435 --> 00:38:26.075
Um, we were just getting sort of
very high level feature requests.

00:38:26.165 --> 00:38:29.495
And I think six months in, after
using the feedback where we kind of

00:38:29.495 --> 00:38:32.165
realize like, yeah, we're now we do
need to do these customer interviews.

00:38:32.255 --> 00:38:36.005
Um, and we found them incredibly valuable,
but they were very time consuming.

00:38:36.065 --> 00:38:37.895
And so sort of fast forward to today.

00:38:38.410 --> 00:38:41.890
Um, we sell a business maybe,
uh, back in late, late July.

00:38:42.340 --> 00:38:44.470
And so we're sort of had a
little break, which is nice.

00:38:44.470 --> 00:38:45.490
And then we're kind of coming back.

00:38:45.490 --> 00:38:45.880
Okay.

00:38:46.420 --> 00:38:49.450
Let's start off with a, sort of
a new business idea together.

00:38:49.930 --> 00:38:52.780
And then we kind of went back through
our experience of our previous business

00:38:52.780 --> 00:38:57.250
and that's when we kind of uncovered,
Hey, that we felt like this, this

00:38:57.250 --> 00:38:59.020
process could be improved the whole.

00:39:00.845 --> 00:39:04.565
Uh, customer user into process could
be, is there a, could we, could you add

00:39:04.565 --> 00:39:08.825
a spit on it that makes it maybe less
time consuming, a little bit easier?

00:39:09.215 --> 00:39:13.235
Uh, I think the, the, the trend that
we found at the moment and actually

00:39:13.385 --> 00:39:14.585
it's really, it was really interesting.

00:39:14.585 --> 00:39:16.985
You said the same word,
which is also part of it.

00:39:17.375 --> 00:39:20.255
So I think that's kind of where
we're, we're exploring at the

00:39:20.255 --> 00:39:23.705
moment or the researchers sort
of pointing us in the direction.

00:39:24.260 --> 00:39:26.300
User interviews on autopilot potentially.

00:39:26.450 --> 00:39:31.580
Um, so yeah, at the moment it's, it's
looking, we're looking towards, um, sort

00:39:31.580 --> 00:39:34.610
of, is there a way to create a solution
where you can get the same quality

00:39:34.610 --> 00:39:36.860
feedback that you can get on use renters?

00:39:36.890 --> 00:39:40.070
Like you mentioned, you know, you
get some real good insights, um,

00:39:40.370 --> 00:39:42.260
nothing quite can compare to it.

00:39:42.620 --> 00:39:46.310
Um, but in terms of the actual input,
the amount of effort you have to put in,

00:39:46.580 --> 00:39:48.110
is there a way you can make that easier?

00:39:48.230 --> 00:39:52.100
Um, without sacrificing on the output,
the quality of the insights she gets.

00:39:52.190 --> 00:39:53.540
So, yeah, that's pretty.

00:39:54.610 --> 00:39:55.270
Jon: Absolutely.

00:39:55.360 --> 00:40:01.270
I think, yeah, you reminded me of,
um, like an experience of, uh, a past

00:40:01.270 --> 00:40:05.380
client that I went and then, uh, and
then worked or work with for awhile.

00:40:05.410 --> 00:40:07.540
Um, most successful SAS business.

00:40:07.540 --> 00:40:07.870
I worked.

00:40:09.725 --> 00:40:15.935
Um, we had some paying customers, um,
for the first product that we built.

00:40:16.445 --> 00:40:20.795
Um, and this is why I know the value
of customer interviews, uh, so much it

00:40:20.795 --> 00:40:24.155
wasn't until we went, uh, we were finding
it, frustrating that people weren't

00:40:24.155 --> 00:40:25.535
using it even after we were selling it.

00:40:26.015 --> 00:40:29.705
Uh, and it was difficult to sell and
it was difficult as onboarding was

00:40:29.705 --> 00:40:30.785
difficult, what was difficult about it?

00:40:31.145 --> 00:40:35.765
And it was, um, going and talking
to the actual end users rather than

00:40:35.765 --> 00:40:36.815
the people that we were selling.

00:40:36.815 --> 00:40:36.965
It.

00:40:37.875 --> 00:40:44.385
And understanding their process is the
key to realizing that actually it was

00:40:44.385 --> 00:40:47.775
one feature that they really loved,
but it was the end of the process

00:40:47.775 --> 00:40:52.185
that we'd created for them to, um, to
complete because it's like a CRM tool.

00:40:52.185 --> 00:40:55.015
So they had to be using it as
a CRM to get this report out.

00:40:55.875 --> 00:40:57.225
But all they wanted was the report.

00:40:58.155 --> 00:41:02.235
Um, other, the, the report was the
thing that was most painful for them

00:41:02.235 --> 00:41:06.285
to create, and they didn't want to
change their process to use some CRM.

00:41:07.195 --> 00:41:07.855
Creates it.

00:41:07.945 --> 00:41:14.365
And so I'm pulling that one feature
out, turned into the, um, the highly

00:41:14.365 --> 00:41:20.605
profitable, um, easy to, to, to,
to sell as a self service SAS that

00:41:20.915 --> 00:41:23.635
we were hoping to create all along.

00:41:23.755 --> 00:41:30.035
Um, but yeah, it was a series of,
um, Yeah, they were relatively

00:41:30.035 --> 00:41:34.685
informal discussions and I think we
might have learned faster, um, and

00:41:34.685 --> 00:41:39.905
understood things better if we'd
had a process of, um, more formal

00:41:39.905 --> 00:41:42.275
customer interviews, um, earlier on.

00:41:44.085 --> 00:41:44.355
Morgan: Yeah.

00:41:44.355 --> 00:41:48.705
I mean, it's interesting how Lisa had
kind of one interview with the right

00:41:48.705 --> 00:41:52.545
person can make a whole of a difference as
opposed to, like I said, I imagine you're

00:41:52.545 --> 00:41:56.175
probably, they're probably selling the
contract is probably with some accounts

00:41:56.175 --> 00:41:59.985
billing person when actually your IBM user
has a completely different perspective

00:41:59.985 --> 00:42:01.815
on it, but it's just, it's hard.

00:42:02.055 --> 00:42:04.845
It's hard to know that that's the end
user when you're just talking through

00:42:04.845 --> 00:42:06.915
maybe email or like surveys, for example.

00:42:07.035 --> 00:42:10.365
So yeah, I was definitely
on the winner, so, yeah.

00:42:10.425 --> 00:42:10.845
Awesome.

00:42:10.995 --> 00:42:11.415
Awesome.

00:42:11.595 --> 00:42:11.895
Cool.

00:42:11.955 --> 00:42:12.705
Really appreciate this.

00:42:13.970 --> 00:42:15.020
Jon: Thank you, Morgan.

00:42:15.230 --> 00:42:19.190
Um, for, uh, yeah, especially for
agreeing to, um, to interview me,

00:42:19.550 --> 00:42:25.220
um, for my podcast and, um, and give
us another, another take on customer

00:42:25.220 --> 00:42:26.630
interviews about customer interviews.

00:42:26.810 --> 00:42:31.640
Um, so hopefully that's been
really useful for, for everyone.

00:42:31.880 --> 00:42:36.230
Is there any way, um, people listening
can find out more about you, um, or what.

00:42:38.045 --> 00:42:39.695
Um, yeah, I

00:42:39.695 --> 00:42:43.805
Morgan: mean, I mean, I would say some
form of social media, but I'm never on it

00:42:43.805 --> 00:42:46.445
and I don't, I don't know why, so yeah.

00:42:46.475 --> 00:42:48.515
I mean, to be honest, that
probably isn't the best place you

00:42:48.515 --> 00:42:49.745
could search me up on LinkedIn.

00:42:49.775 --> 00:42:51.095
That's probably, that's
probably the best way.

00:42:51.095 --> 00:42:52.625
All other social media forms.

00:42:52.895 --> 00:42:54.005
Um, I'm pretty useless.

00:42:54.805 --> 00:42:58.325
And I guess the business is in such
early phase that we don't really

00:42:58.325 --> 00:43:01.835
have a, uh, a full-fledged solution
with the thing we're currently

00:43:01.835 --> 00:43:03.725
working on is I guess, called use.

00:43:04.420 --> 00:43:04.990
The IO.

00:43:05.080 --> 00:43:07.720
So if you want it to visit the
website, to check out this sort of

00:43:07.720 --> 00:43:11.200
a landing page of what the solution
could potentially be like, uh, yeah.

00:43:11.400 --> 00:43:14.170
That's probably where you'll find
us in our contact details, but, uh,

00:43:14.710 --> 00:43:18.400
yeah, we're still validating it so
early days that might not be the, the

00:43:18.400 --> 00:43:20.320
end product on a minor even exist.

00:43:20.350 --> 00:43:20.740
Jon: We'll see.

00:43:22.240 --> 00:43:22.660
All right.

00:43:23.380 --> 00:43:24.190
Um, okay.

00:43:24.190 --> 00:43:33.220
So used haste, uh, use haste.io, um, and,
um, Morgan Williams, uh, on LinkedIn.

00:43:33.640 --> 00:43:39.155
Um, Have you find your mouth, I'll get
those linked in the show notes for this

00:43:39.155 --> 00:43:42.725
episode, a question I ask actually on
I'm dropping this on you as a surprise,

00:43:42.725 --> 00:43:46.775
but hopefully you've got some off the top
of your head at the end of each podcast.

00:43:46.775 --> 00:43:50.705
I'd be interested to hear from you
is three tools, um, software tools

00:43:50.705 --> 00:43:56.915
that, um, you find yourself using, um,
or, uh, and, um, and maybe we would

00:43:56.915 --> 00:43:59.645
recommend some of the, uh, the anything
you're paying for at the moment.

00:43:59.915 --> 00:44:01.475
Um, the very early stages either.

00:44:03.110 --> 00:44:03.490
Morgan: Yeah.

00:44:03.490 --> 00:44:03.680
Yeah.

00:44:03.710 --> 00:44:09.050
Let's think, um, I guess the number
one for me, both paths on business and

00:44:09.050 --> 00:44:11.180
notion, I don't know what to ask about it.

00:44:11.180 --> 00:44:13.160
It's just, yeah, it's hard to explain.

00:44:13.160 --> 00:44:14.420
It's just got a bit of everything.

00:44:14.600 --> 00:44:15.470
Um, yeah.

00:44:15.500 --> 00:44:16.730
Super easy to use.

00:44:17.060 --> 00:44:18.260
Super collaborative.

00:44:18.440 --> 00:44:19.760
Um, I guess.

00:44:20.370 --> 00:44:22.080
I'm massively into design as well.

00:44:22.110 --> 00:44:25.740
Sometimes a downside when we're spending
weeks on design, when we should just

00:44:25.740 --> 00:44:29.460
be whipping up a quick landing page,
but a tool we use for that is Figma.

00:44:29.940 --> 00:44:30.150
Yeah.

00:44:30.180 --> 00:44:31.200
Real big fan of that.

00:44:31.320 --> 00:44:33.570
Uh, yeah, it changes the game in terms of.

00:44:35.720 --> 00:44:37.280
Comparing it to like Photoshop.

00:44:37.280 --> 00:44:37.460
Yeah.

00:44:37.470 --> 00:44:38.420
It just changes the game.

00:44:38.990 --> 00:44:42.920
Um, and actually one thing I
use recently is Calendly, uh,

00:44:42.940 --> 00:44:44.300
actually for these user interviews.

00:44:44.390 --> 00:44:45.020
Amazing.

00:44:45.080 --> 00:44:46.100
So simple.

00:44:46.520 --> 00:44:47.750
Um, yeah.

00:44:47.810 --> 00:44:50.060
And it just seems like one of
those problems that has probably

00:44:50.060 --> 00:44:52.430
existed for maybe 20 years.

00:44:52.460 --> 00:44:56.930
And I feel like Canada is a fairly newish
kind of tool, um, which is just nuts.

00:44:56.930 --> 00:45:00.200
So whether technology has changed
and allowed them to build that

00:45:00.200 --> 00:45:03.560
easily or just no one, no one
built something that seems so.

00:45:04.165 --> 00:45:04.975
So simple.

00:45:05.155 --> 00:45:08.425
Uh, but yeah, that's, uh, there
probably three tools I use

00:45:08.425 --> 00:45:11.605
the most or in cannabis cases,

00:45:11.605 --> 00:45:12.625
Jon: a new one that I'm enjoying.

00:45:13.075 --> 00:45:13.255
Yep.

00:45:13.615 --> 00:45:14.155
Excellent.

00:45:14.335 --> 00:45:14.635
Thank you.

00:45:14.635 --> 00:45:18.625
So that's a notion Figma and candidly.

00:45:19.405 --> 00:45:19.795
That's the one.

00:45:19.795 --> 00:45:19.945
Yeah.

00:45:20.365 --> 00:45:20.695
All right.

00:45:21.895 --> 00:45:22.435
Thanks, Morgan.

00:45:23.305 --> 00:45:23.965
It's been really good.

00:45:24.565 --> 00:45:25.225
Morgan: Yeah, no worries.

00:45:25.225 --> 00:45:25.825
Thank you very much.

00:45:26.237 --> 00:45:29.927
Jon: That was hopefully a useful
example of a customer interview.

00:45:31.067 --> 00:45:35.147
You can find notes from this episode,
including links to all the products

00:45:35.147 --> 00:45:37.697
mentioned at empathy, deployed.com.

00:45:38.627 --> 00:45:42.137
If you know anyone who might benefit
from hearing this perspective,

00:45:42.467 --> 00:45:43.517
please share the episode.

00:45:45.362 --> 00:45:46.202
And word of caution.

00:45:46.802 --> 00:45:49.802
This interview is a snapshot of
just one person's perspective

00:45:50.072 --> 00:45:51.632
in an artificial situation.

00:45:52.292 --> 00:45:55.472
You should be very careful about
drawing any conclusions about

00:45:55.472 --> 00:45:59.312
the guest people like them or the
product from this single data point.

00:46:00.542 --> 00:46:04.052
Customer interviews are most valuable
when you see parallels across, many

00:46:04.052 --> 00:46:06.302
of them will be in a specific context.

00:46:07.172 --> 00:46:10.052
I'd suggest a minimum of
five and ideally 12 to 15.

00:46:11.162 --> 00:46:15.122
I recommend the book, deploy
empathy by Michelle Hanson for a

00:46:15.122 --> 00:46:16.892
practical guide on how to do it.

00:46:16.922 --> 00:46:20.521
Well, if you'd like to join
me as a guest on a future

00:46:20.521 --> 00:46:22.291
episode, please send me a note.

00:46:22.651 --> 00:46:24.301
I'm jumped on Twitter.

00:46:24.601 --> 00:46:25.771
That's J O T.

00:46:26.101 --> 00:46:27.511
My DMS are open.

00:46:28.801 --> 00:46:32.611
You can also use the form at
empathy, deployed.com or email.

00:46:32.641 --> 00:46:34.231
Hello at empathy deployed.

00:46:36.076 --> 00:46:39.376
Please include the names and
addresses of free software products

00:46:39.796 --> 00:46:42.106
you use regularly and or pay for.