Beyond Survival - The Therapy Podcast with Katie McKenna
Beyond Survival - The Therapy Podcast with Katie McKenna
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'Why Does He Do That? Inside The Minds of Angry and Controlling Men' - Lundy Bancroft (S7 Ep6)

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Have you ever found yourself wondering, “Why is he doing this?”

You replay the argument. Question what you said. 

Apologise when you’re not even sure what you’ve done wrong. 

You explain away the silence, the accusations, the sudden shifts in mood.

He was stressed. He had a bad day. I could have said it differently.

But what happens when you stop looking at each moment on its own — and start looking at the pattern?

In this week’s episode of Beyond Survival, I’m joined by Lundy Bancroft, who has spent more than 30 years working with abusive men and their families and is the author of 'Why Does He Do That? - Inside The Minds of Angry and Controlling Men'

Lundy describes an abusive man as operating a little like a magician. The trick isn’t necessarily what he’s doing — it’s where he gets you to look.

While you’re focused on his feelings, his anger, his wounds and what you might have done to cause them, you can lose sight of what’s actually happening.

This conversation is about stepping back from the confusion of individual moments and noticing what happens when you look at them together.

Because sometimes, the things that are hardest to see are the things we’ve been living with for so long that they simply feel normal.

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WEBVTT
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Hello and welcome back to another episode on Beyond Survival.
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Today I want to talk about what happens when we repeat a pattern that we've grown up with in childhood.
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It can be so normalized, abuse can be so normalized to us when we've been gaslit by our own parents.
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And we can struggle to trust our own perception and then recognize the abuse in relationships.
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Today I'm delighted that I have Lundie Bancroft with me today.
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He is the author of Why Does He Do That inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men.
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He has over 30 years' experience as a counselor, evaluator, and investigator, specializing in interventions for abusive men and their families.
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He's authored six books, including the world's bestseller on domestic violence, the one that we're going to talk about today, why does he do that?
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And he's co-authored the prize-winning professional book, The Batterer as a Parent.
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His new book and his first novel, In Custody, a Carrie Green novel, was released in 2021 as well.
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Lundi, thank you so much for being with me here today.
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I've highlighted so much of the book.
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I know that we're not going to be able to get into all of it.
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But I wonder maybe for any of my audience that doesn't know you, if you could just give a bit of background on the work that you do.
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So I came into working with domestic abuse more than 30 years ago.
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And I came in on the offender end.
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So I came in working in a program in Cambridge, Massachusetts, in the US, for men who were abusing women and who were coming for counseling to change.
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Supposedly.
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And one of the things that's so crucial about my early experience that is not true of all counseling programs for abusers, but should be, is that we always insisted on a confidential interview with the woman that he was not to be present for and he was not to know what she had told us.
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And so that's really largely where my education came from on domestic abuse was from listening to the women's stories.
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And not only that, but from then seeing the contrast with how the abuser would describe what was happening.
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And it was such an education there and how incredibly distorted his version of events is, but also how persuasive it sounds.
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So it really made us realize that anyone who's working with the offenders without talking with the victims is going to get so fooled and they're going to think that they're dealing with someone who's so much less destructive.
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And I don't just mean violent, but I mean psychologically destructive, emotionally destructive, than he actually is.
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So I did that for many years, and I supervised other abusers, counselors, as I started to have much more experience.
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And then I started to take more and more of an interest in how children who were living in a home with this man, or for whom this man was a key player in their lives, how they were being affected by how this man was treating their mother.
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And often by how he was treating them too.
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But even in cases where he wasn't that bad directly to them, it was taking a huge toll on them what he was doing to their mother.
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So that became a lot of a sort of focus for me is what the abuser is like as a parent.
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Starting really 20 years ago now, like I I I gave up most of the direct work with abusers and became a trainer and a writer and trying to spread the word on the things that I had learned during those 10 years.
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But I've continued to learn a lot since because women are always bringing me their stories at speaking events or they're sending them to me by mail.
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And so my learning has has not, there's always more to learn.
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There's always more to learn.
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Anyone who thinks they know that much doesn't realize how much there is left to learn.
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Absolutely.
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Uh, same here in my line of work.
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And there's just so much of what you said there, the different parts that I want to go into.
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And maybe the one, and I know it's even a big one to tackle, is even the word abuse, because so many people get caught on like how uh big that word is, and then they minimize and dismiss it, or compare it to physical abuse.
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And there's one part where you wrote in the book that you said the difference between the verbally abusive man and the physical batterer are not as great as many people believe.
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The extent of their common ground may startle you.
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And so I I I want to maybe put it back to you to talk about that, the physical abuse, because a lot of people minimize it and they think that abuse is only if he's physical to me, right?
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It's only if he hits me.
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And if he doesn't do that, then it's not abuse.
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So, how do you classify abuse or what would you say abuse is?
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So I have a few thoughts about how I do that.
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But what I want to say first is that what I most want to ask people to look at is what is happening to you?
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What is the impact of his behavior?
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Because whether it fits your definition or somebody's definition of abuse or not is not the key question.
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The key question is, are you going downhill emotionally or in your physical health, in your friendships, on a number of different fronts?
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And it's very tricky for for someone who's being abused to even be able to see that because the whole time you're being told that these are the things that are inherently wrong with you.
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And you're and you're you're starting to lose the grip on the fact that you didn't used to be like that, that this is happening to you because of how badly you're being treated.
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In the line of work that I do, that level of confusion can be there because the work that I do is for people that who have grown up in abusive relationships, narcissistic parents, and then they enter into these relationships.
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So even what you're saying there is so true when somebody comes from a healthy enough background that they can look back into this and be like, okay, I have gone downhill.
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But for somebody who has always grown up as that then people pleaser, the fauner in that high anxiety state that has never been able to go inward and trust their own perception, this is an extra level of confusion.
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So I love that you're saying actually go inward to try and identify how you're feeling.
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But what I hear from a lot of my client group is it's just so confusing.
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He did this, he said this, but then he did this thing, and they can get lost in the examples and stories.
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And then as they're even telling one, they'll contradict that and they'll because there's like another example, and the confusion is so evident and runs so deep.
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Like you said, like you're kind of losing, it feels like you're losing your mind.
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It it feels like you're going crazy.
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I think you just captured also one of one of many things, which is the to and to use a metaphor to to uh say a camera, where you really need to zoom out and look at it from farther back.
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Because if when you took the micro view, you get so caught up in each detail, you lose track of what the pattern is of how he's behaving and the pattern of of what it's doing to you.
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So some of the things that I really think are are are most defining or indicative of abuse is that the behavior is a pattern based on on devaluing the other person, on demeaning her and making her feel less than, and and and focusing on what is deficient or not adequate about her.
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And then it tends to have a very strong pattern of control, of bullying of her.
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And so I encourage women to particularly look for a few things, besides what we already talked about, about to the extent that you can see it, see the effects.
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Look for double standards.
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Does he have a whole different set of rules for himself than he has for you?
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He's allowed to do, he's allowed to be flirtatious with other women, staring at them, commenting on them, flirting with their bodies, flirting with them.
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But if you even have a completely platonic male friend, that's like likely to be a big scandal.
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He's likely to try to make it into something.
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Uh, he can yell and scream and call you all kinds of names, but you get upset and yell angrily for very good reasons.
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Ooh, you're crazy.
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Ooh, see how you get, see how volatile you are.
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And I could go on and on and on, you know, way his friendships matter, but your friendships don't.
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The when he makes mistakes, it's like, well, people make mistakes sometimes, but when you make mistakes, it's like you made this horrible mistake.
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It's awful that you made, you know, it's the completely different rules for himself than for you.
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So that's a really powerful thing to look for.
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Another thing that to me is very characteristic of abuse is retaliation.
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When you do something that he doesn't like, do you pay a price for that?
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When when you do something your partner doesn't like, what should happen is that the person is mad at you and tells you that they're mad at you, but they shouldn't punish you.
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As soon as they punish you, that's already trending towards abuse.
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A lot of people can't even identify the punishment because they're so used to avoiding the punishment.
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So, for example, when you were talking about there, you know, your world getting smaller and shrinking, that I might even mightn't even notice that I just don't go out with my girlfriends uh once a week or you know, twice or three times a month because it's just not worth it.
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Because the tension in the home, it's just not worth it how he's gonna be, how he's gonna be either angry, verbally aggressive, or inwardly raging and then give me the silent treatment.
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So I mightn't even realize that I've altered my behavior and that I'm being punished.
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I'll just have adapted my behavior and just think it's just easier not to do the thing.
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That's just so well articulated, Katie.
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That's I I see that exactly go on over and over and over again.
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And the the other thing I'll just add there is that there's always an excuse for it that will take your eye off the pattern.
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Like, oh, because he's really insecure, or oh, his last girlfriend really hurt him, or his mother really hurt him.
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There's usually going to be some woman getting blamed.
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Notice that pattern also.
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But it can be other things, it can be his job stress or whatever.
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So that you're that makes it harder for you to see the pattern that you're always paying a price for the things that you do.
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And as you just pointed out, Katie, to notice that you're starting to give up certain things that were important to you.
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It's really important to notice that you're vanishing, you little by little, you're vanishing in in what he's under under this flood of things that that he's doing.
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And then, of course, as soon as there's fear, you know that you're out into uh the territory of abuse.
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And it it's very often going to be a fear that he's gonna assault you physically someday, whether he has done it already or not.
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But there can be other kinds of fear, you know, that he's gonna find other ways to really cause you great emotional pain.
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And that's fear.
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That's still fear when you think, oh my God, he's like if if if if I get him upset today, he's gonna ruin my little girl or little boy's birthday.
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Yes.
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You you have to be scared about these things, or oh, my parents are coming over, and if I get him upset, he's gonna be horrible to them.
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Some, I mean, that's fear.
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You're you start to you start to be afraid.
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So fear isn't just about, oh, that I'm gonna get shoved or locked in a room or punched or that kind of stuff.
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So that's another big flag, is when when you're starting to feel afraid.
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And I guess the other thing, there's so many things we could flag, Katie, but the other thing I most want to flag, and and you've already hinted at this, is isolation.
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Are you starting to get more cut off from people?
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And of course, you may have been, as you said, some women were a little cut off to begin with, so it can be hard to tell.
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But just notice are my relationships getting more difficult?
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I'm I'm losing friends.
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I he doesn't like it when I'm in touch with my family.
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He's got he speaks badly about my family a lot, or all these things that start to uh get you alone.
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One more, one more example that comes up for me, a fair number amount in my work, is a woman who had some kind of little business.
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It wasn't necessarily her main job.
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Sometimes it was even her main source of income, but a lot of times it was like a side thing.
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She's she made and sold jewelry, or she or you know, she had some little thing going, and he manages to get her all to give that up.
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He pressures her.
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Oh, it's too much, you it's taking too much time away from me, or too much time away from our family, or oh, now that I'm here to help financially, you don't need to do that anymore, ignoring the fact that it meant something to you, having a source of independence, and maybe you enjoyed the work.
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So that's another example of things sometimes that you get pressured into giving up is some source way of uh accomplishing something economically.
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It is, and then it's so clever because that also then can be used as a weapon against you.
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So that pressure to make you give up the thing that maybe you love or that's uh giving you your bit of independence, financial independence.
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But now that I've pressurized you into giving it up, I'll tell you how fucking useless you are that you gave it up and you never contribute and you don't do anything.
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And I have to go out now and work so hard out here, and all I want to do is come home and get a bit of peace, but you you won't fucking give that to me.
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Like it's just you do nothing.
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And it's it's that part of the constant erosion that you were talking about when you were talking about the disrespect and the chipping away at somebody, that it just it it erodes a person's, a woman's self-worth, her her value.
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It does, and it and it starts to erode your sense of even what's real.
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And and you've talked already about the kinds of things that make you question your own sanity and make you feel like you're crazy because you're thinking, wait a minute, didn't he tell me he didn't want me to do these things?
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And and now he's as you're saying, degrade demeaning me because I'm not doing these things, you start to think, well, mate, well, wait a minute, did he really say you start to doubt it?
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So, by the way, what I want to say now, it's really, really important to to have a journal and figure out someplace you can hide it that you I know there's the fear that he'll find it, and I understand that you might take some real creativity to figure out where you can hide it.
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And and if of course, if you're keeping journal on your phone or on your or on a computer, then you have to really think about the risk that he'll get into that.
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But just so think about security, think about passwords.
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If you're writing a handwritten journal, which is often the best, think about where you can hide it.
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The reason that's so important is that I hear over and over again that women go back and read what was going on a year ago or read what was going on two years ago, and suddenly they don't feel so crazy.
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Suddenly they feel like, wait a minute, you know, no wonder I'm feeling the way I am, or no wonder what he's saying seems contradictory.
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It's completely contradictory.
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Yeah.
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And or he's saying this thing never happened, and here it is in my journal that I wrote right after it happened.
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When we were talking about there, even in that example of, let's say, giving up work and then being blamed for giving up work and the confusion and you know, kind of getting more into the story going, this doesn't make sense.
00:16:09.080 --> 00:16:12.600
I was going to ask you that question and go, what is an example there to zoom out?
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And so here is one that if you are to write this down, so that will give you the overall perspective, looking back, and you'll be able to see the pattern more clear.
00:16:23.480 --> 00:16:24.440
That's a really powerful one.
00:16:24.519 --> 00:16:26.039
Another one that just came to my mind now.
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I haven't actually thought about this before, but another one that just comes to my mind now is that friends or relatives will sometimes attempt to tell you what they're noticing.
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And that's going to tend to make you feel really bad.
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And you're lucky likely to launch into defending him.
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And I understand that.
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I totally understand that.
00:16:44.440 --> 00:16:52.519
But see if you can think through what's going on there because the of course he's telling you ahead of time, oh, they just think so badly of me.
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And and and so you feel like you need to defend him and stick up for him.
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But they they're in a sense, they're the ones that are that are more zoomed back.
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And and even so, even though it hurts your feelings, see if you can take in a little bit what they're telling you about what they're observing.
00:17:07.799 --> 00:17:08.279
I love that.
00:17:08.359 --> 00:17:14.039
And again, I think that that advice is wonderful for people when they come from a healthy enough family.
00:17:14.279 --> 00:17:23.799
In my experience, when I'm looking at an abuser as a parent, and I think it's important to say because they will abuse their child, their adult child, and tell them that they are crazy.
00:17:23.879 --> 00:17:25.079
They've done it all their life, right?
00:17:25.159 --> 00:17:28.519
You're imagining things, you make stuff up, you overreact.
00:17:28.680 --> 00:17:34.039
And so when there is an abusive parent, they can sometimes align with an abusive partner.
00:17:34.200 --> 00:17:43.159
So I do agree with you that definitely with safe people to get that perspective, but make sure whose advice you're you're taking on that.
00:17:43.240 --> 00:17:46.759
And it would be wonderful if that was your parents or families.
00:17:46.839 --> 00:17:54.519
But sometimes when you repeat that pattern, they are the the very ones who are also um being harmful towards you.
00:17:54.920 --> 00:17:55.399
Thank you.
00:17:55.480 --> 00:17:56.759
That's so important, Katie.
00:17:57.000 --> 00:18:05.879
And and the abusers, not all abusers, but it but it's huge percentage of abusers, are remarkably good at reading what's going on.
00:18:05.960 --> 00:18:16.119
And they'll figure out like where are the where is the weak spot in your relationships or or what are your what are your parents angry at you about that then he can join and be angry.
00:18:16.440 --> 00:18:24.359
The I gave an example in the book that actually was was from a client of mine of a guy who had no interest in religion.
00:18:25.000 --> 00:18:32.920
And his wife, as uh, as they were splitting up, actually, stopped going to church because she didn't really like going to church.
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And he and he suddenly was going to church all the time and was and was connecting with her parents, saying, Oh, you know, I feel like what's gone on wrong in our relationship is that she's drifted from the church and the parents were really upset that she wasn't going to church.
00:18:46.519 --> 00:18:53.160
And so he managed to bond with the parents, even though he'd never been, like I say, he'd never been church going before, but suddenly he's Mr.
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he's Mr.
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Faith and bonding with them about exactly what he knows they're upset at her about to create that to widen that rift there.
00:19:02.839 --> 00:19:08.440
It shouldn't surprise me or shock me, and in a huge way it doesn't, but then it also does.
00:19:08.519 --> 00:19:15.079
Like when you were saying that, I was like, it always surprises me how intentional and how calculated it is.
00:19:15.240 --> 00:19:20.839
And then when I go back into like my rational brain and what I know of abuse, I'm like, no, this is not surprising.
00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:32.039
But when you're talking there, like my my emotions listening to it, even how calculated it is at the beginning to find the things that your parents were annoyed with you about that I can then use that against you.
00:19:32.200 --> 00:19:36.920
Like there's a part of me that my mouth is on the floor going, fuck it.
00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:38.759
Really, it's that calculated.
00:19:39.240 --> 00:19:43.160
It it is there's there's a remarkable amount of method to the madness.
00:19:43.319 --> 00:19:50.039
And and and I don't, I'm not saying he calculates every move, but so many of his moves are really well calculated.
00:19:50.200 --> 00:19:50.360
Yeah.
00:19:50.519 --> 00:19:56.440
This reminds me of another dynamic, Katie, which is the way that things flip into almost their opposites.
00:19:56.599 --> 00:20:03.000
So in the early in a relationship, he may, that may be one of the things you connected about was how bad your parents were to you.
00:20:03.079 --> 00:20:06.440
And he may be early in the relationship, like, oh, I can't believe they treated you that way.
00:20:06.599 --> 00:20:08.599
Oh, I had a really rough childhood too.
00:20:08.759 --> 00:20:10.039
Like, that's a bond between us.
00:20:10.200 --> 00:20:18.360
Like, oh, and then, but then two years later, he's suddenly throwing in your face all the same kinds of things that they do.
00:20:18.440 --> 00:20:23.799
Suddenly he's on their team when when sort of being on your team was part of the initial bond.
00:20:23.960 --> 00:20:26.120
Suddenly, you know, he's he's joined them against you.
00:20:26.200 --> 00:20:27.480
He's joined the abuser team.
00:20:27.799 --> 00:20:32.279
And straight away when you're talking, and this is not mean the situation, but I'm back being confused.
00:20:32.360 --> 00:20:33.880
It's like that's so confusing.
00:20:33.960 --> 00:20:34.839
What just happened here?
00:20:35.079 --> 00:20:45.799
Also, that abusers won't just use your your your injured places or your weaknesses against you, they also are capable of collecting information about your strengths and finding ways to use those against you.
00:20:45.880 --> 00:20:48.680
And you might think, well, how can he use my strengths against me?
00:20:48.839 --> 00:20:49.480
But he does.
00:20:49.640 --> 00:20:51.000
He finds ways to do that.
00:20:51.160 --> 00:20:51.880
It's it's quite right.
00:20:52.279 --> 00:20:53.319
Can you use an example of that?
00:20:53.480 --> 00:20:56.200
Using a strength against somebody well.
00:20:56.440 --> 00:21:04.839
So for example, one of your strengths, let's say, is that you really can successfully form good friendships.
00:21:04.920 --> 00:21:10.360
Despite your difficult background, you're still you've you've that's one of the ways you've triumphed is you can form good friendships.
00:21:10.839 --> 00:21:22.360
And so he'll start to really take that in, that that's one thing you're really good at, and he'll start to flip it into you need other people's approval too much, you shouldn't need other people, you should be okay without these people.
00:21:22.599 --> 00:21:25.240
Uh, you rely too much on your friends.
00:21:25.480 --> 00:21:31.319
So he'll he'll find a way to to weaponize this skill that you have, forming good friendships.
00:21:31.640 --> 00:21:32.039
Yeah.
00:21:32.279 --> 00:21:33.400
Again, it's very clever.
00:21:33.559 --> 00:21:49.640
And for somebody, again, my audience that has grown up in abuse, when they don't have uh a healthy sense of who they are as an individual, this very easily and very quickly can tap into that, that doubt that they have for themselves.
00:21:49.960 --> 00:21:57.799
I I want to go and talk, uh, just read out a list that you have here when we're talking about um ways to spot this behavior.
00:21:58.039 --> 00:23:00.039
And you say uh behaviors to look out for, you know, there's an array of them, you said, for control tactics in conflict and sarcasm, ridicule, distorting what you say, distorting what happened in an earlier interaction, sulking, accusing you of doing what he does or thinking the way he thinks, using a tone of absolute certainty and final authority, defining reality, interrupting, not listening, refusing to respond, laughing out loud at your opinion or perspective, turning your grievances around to use against you, changing the subject to his grievances, criticism that is harsh, undeserved, or frequent, provoking guilt, playing the victim, smirking, rolling his eyes, contemptuous facial expressions, yelling, out shouting, swearing, name-calling, insults, put downs, walking out, towering over you, walking towards you in an intimidating way, blocking a doorway, other forms of physical intimidation, such as getting too close when he's angry, threatening to leave you, threatening to harm you.
00:23:00.920 --> 00:23:11.160
Lundy, I think there's gonna be a whole lot of my audience that are listening to that and will that that will be like, oh my god, that's my relationship.
00:23:11.640 --> 00:23:14.519
It's unfortunately that kind of behavior is very, very widespread.
00:23:14.680 --> 00:23:26.519
And in fact, it's so widespread that the way that some people react to that list is to say, Lundy, it's completely unrealistic to think that I'm ever gonna find anybody that doesn't do those things.
00:23:27.319 --> 00:23:29.559
And I don't believe that's true.
00:23:29.960 --> 00:23:30.599
Me neither.
00:23:31.079 --> 00:23:43.640
Um but I also believe that that it's Behaviors that are a pattern are really different from something that appears, you know, because that somebody, you know, says something insulting once a year.
00:23:43.720 --> 00:23:46.039
I mean, some things they happen once, that's too many.
00:23:46.360 --> 00:23:50.120
But yeah, somebody your partner probably will say something insulting once a year.
00:23:50.759 --> 00:23:52.360
Are they apologetic afterwards?
00:23:52.519 --> 00:23:53.720
Like seriously apologetic?
00:23:53.799 --> 00:23:55.000
Because then that's a whole other subject.
00:23:55.079 --> 00:23:59.319
Is how do you tell an apology that actually means something from an apology that means nothing?
00:23:59.960 --> 00:24:12.519
Yeah, it's not about expecting uh perfection from someone, but anything on that list should be something that the person afterwards recognizes as really not acceptable and says, Well, yeah, I shouldn't have done that.
00:24:12.599 --> 00:24:16.599
That's even though I was angry, or even whatever my excuses are, that's not okay.
00:24:16.839 --> 00:24:23.079
And I need to work really hard on not doing that again, rather than streaming a bunch of excuses at you.
00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:30.279
Because if they do those, any of those behaviors and then stream a bunch of excuses at you when you call them out on it, you're in abuse territory.
00:24:30.599 --> 00:24:31.880
I love what you're talking about there.
00:24:32.039 --> 00:24:42.920
The difference between being in a relationship, and I'm uh I'm in my relationship 20 odd years, and so and I was with him from when I was like in my late teens, like 19 in my 20s.
00:24:43.079 --> 00:24:52.839
And the difference even in being young and foolish, I'm talking about me and even my learned patterns of behavior in how to communicate, which was really unhealthy from my farm family of origin.
00:24:53.319 --> 00:25:07.720
There's such a difference in making mistakes in me, and I'm talking about me here, like at times when I would uh overreact, say something that I would later regret, that that would, that would not be common.
00:25:07.880 --> 00:25:11.480
That would be um, I don't want to say a complete rarity, right?
00:25:11.559 --> 00:25:13.000
But that would be isolated.
00:25:13.160 --> 00:25:21.160
The general is that it is easy, that it is loving, that it is respectful, that it is kind, that it is me wanting good things for him.
00:25:21.319 --> 00:25:21.720
Yeah.
00:25:21.880 --> 00:25:24.680
And then these are more isolated incidents.
00:25:24.759 --> 00:25:27.160
And if I'm to flip it then with him, the same is true.
00:25:27.319 --> 00:25:30.120
It is rare that there will be any of these things.
00:25:30.200 --> 00:25:35.319
And you're right, some are that uh grievous that on their own, it is abusive on their own.
00:25:35.480 --> 00:25:45.079
But often when I talk online and I talk about contempt and I talk about that mocking, that ridicule, that sarcasm, I will get people going, oh, you can't take a joke.
00:25:45.240 --> 00:25:58.200
And it's like, no, when this is done repeatedly and you are the butt of the joke, and that is done to chip away at you and to tear you down and to humiliate you and to mock you and erode your confidence, either privately or publicly.
00:25:58.360 --> 00:26:01.000
This is what you're talking about, looking at the pattern.
00:26:01.160 --> 00:26:04.440
And how often does this happen with this person?
00:26:04.759 --> 00:26:19.319
And I also understand what you're saying about people who were that's really the family or uh or community behavior that they grew up around, it makes it even harder to realize like you don't deserve to be treated this way.
00:26:19.559 --> 00:26:19.720
Yeah.
00:26:19.960 --> 00:26:26.440
I think that's one of the hardest things for somebody that comes from abuse to believe that I don't deserve to be treated this way.
00:26:26.599 --> 00:26:34.279
Because if I've been abused in childhood, there will be a part of me that just thinks that I am bad and unworthy to the core and unlovable.
00:26:34.440 --> 00:26:39.400
So when you were saying that when somebody hears that list, they're going, I don't know if that exists elsewhere.
00:26:39.559 --> 00:26:55.079
Because if I've witnessed this either from my mother or my father, and that this is just the language that they use, the language of mocking, sarcasm, ridicule, it will, it will be hard to imagine that there would be anything any different or that I deserve anything any different.
00:26:55.400 --> 00:27:03.400
And it's so crushing to the soul to be told as a child, these ways you're being mistreated, you deserve.
00:27:03.559 --> 00:27:07.640
You're you you're you these are being caused by you, not by they're not being caused by my issues.
00:27:09.559 --> 00:27:11.000
These aren't my issues as a parent.
00:27:11.160 --> 00:27:17.720
These are your fundament, this is your fundamental uh unworthiness as a as a human being.
00:27:17.880 --> 00:27:20.920
And yeah, that's a I I that's a long road.
00:27:21.000 --> 00:27:23.880
I get it what you're saying, that it's a long road back from that.
00:27:24.120 --> 00:27:25.799
But people do come back from that.
00:27:25.960 --> 00:27:29.000
And obviously in your line of work, you see people come back from that.
00:27:29.160 --> 00:27:33.559
So we just have to keep in, you know, being out there sharing our encouragement.
00:27:34.279 --> 00:27:59.480
They do, and it's really important to say that because you know, we talk about so much of you, or I talk so much about like a toxic hope that the abuser can change, and I'm gonna get to that in a minute with you and and the myths but I want to talk about there's a piece here that you wrote, and it's a half a page, and I just want to read it out because I think it really sums up people's confusion and this kind of uh Jekyll and hide that they can see in the relationship.
00:27:59.720 --> 00:28:03.000
So the abuser's mood changes are especially perplexing.
00:28:03.160 --> 00:28:05.960
He can be a different person from day to day or even hour to hour.
00:28:06.120 --> 00:28:13.160
At times he is aggressive and intimidating, his harsh tone, insult spewing from his mouth, ridicule dripping from him like oil from a drum.
00:28:13.319 --> 00:28:18.680
When he's in this mode, nothing she says seems to have any impact on him except to make him even angrier.
00:28:18.839 --> 00:28:22.120
Her side of the argument counts for nothing in his eyes, and everything is her fault.
00:28:22.279 --> 00:28:25.480
He twists her words around so that she always ends up on the defensive.
00:28:25.640 --> 00:28:29.880
And so many partners of my clients have said to me, I just can't seem to do anything right.
00:28:30.120 --> 00:28:35.880
At other moments, he sounds wounded and lost, hungering for love and for someone to take care of him.
00:28:36.039 --> 00:28:39.559
When this side of him emerges, he appears open and ready to heal.
00:28:39.720 --> 00:28:48.120
He seems to let down his guard, his hard exterior softens, and he may take on the quality of a hurt child, difficult and frustrating but lovable.
00:28:48.360 --> 00:28:54.920
Looking at him in this defeated state, his partner has trouble imagining that the abuser inside of him will ever be back.
00:28:55.160 --> 00:29:01.960
The beast that takes over him at other times looks completely unrelated to the tender person she sees now.
00:29:02.279 --> 00:29:03.880
Well, it's such a trap, isn't it?
00:29:04.039 --> 00:29:05.400
It's such a trap.
00:29:05.640 --> 00:29:13.160
And but what one thing that just occurs to me as you read this is notice that both of these phases are entirely about him.
00:29:14.680 --> 00:29:16.759
But then you're still never the focus.
00:29:16.839 --> 00:29:17.799
Like, what do you need?
00:29:17.960 --> 00:29:19.240
What are your ambitions?
00:29:19.400 --> 00:29:21.799
What what what's your life?
00:29:21.880 --> 00:29:22.920
What's going well in your life?
00:29:23.079 --> 00:29:24.440
What's not going well in your life?
00:29:24.599 --> 00:29:38.120
And and we're talking about, you were talking just a couple minutes ago about how, in a proper relationship, even if once in a while someone does something hurtful or that they shouldn't do, there's this underlying sense of my partner's got my back, you know, and I have my partner's back.
00:29:38.279 --> 00:29:42.440
And like we're, we're, we're, we, we, we're, we care, we want each other's lives to go well.
00:29:42.680 --> 00:29:43.240
Yes.
00:29:43.480 --> 00:29:59.000
And and that means that we're also going to attend to what that person wants and needs or what they're trying to accomplish as a as in professionally or as a parent or in their athletics or whatever it is that they care, their theater, whatever it is that they care about in life.
00:29:59.240 --> 00:30:02.200
And you're just hearing hearing my own words there.
00:30:02.279 --> 00:30:02.360
Yeah.
00:30:02.599 --> 00:30:05.960
That's why and during both of these phases, it's all about him.
00:30:06.200 --> 00:30:06.519
Yeah.
00:30:06.680 --> 00:30:12.680
So so even in the more lovable phase, it's still what you need is still not entering the picture.
00:30:13.000 --> 00:30:14.519
There's such an invisibility.
00:30:14.680 --> 00:30:21.400
Like as you said that, I was again focusing sort of of the confusion and the manipulation of the behavior, which it is.
00:30:21.559 --> 00:30:22.680
But you're absolutely right.
00:30:22.839 --> 00:30:31.160
You're absolutely right that it is all about them and and for them, then to not be held accountable, to deflect from it.
00:30:31.319 --> 00:30:39.960
And then also you're saying, yes, not to see you as a partner and as a human, but then that's real sort of infantilization there.
00:30:40.039 --> 00:30:43.160
You're saying um to the quality of a hurt child.
00:30:43.400 --> 00:30:48.839
So then mother me and mind me rather than treat me like an adult.
00:30:49.160 --> 00:30:51.400
Right, rather than expect me to be a proper partner, right?
00:30:51.559 --> 00:30:56.920
I was gonna say it's painful to recognize these patterns, but it's it's also ultimately liberating to recognize these patterns.
00:30:57.240 --> 00:31:07.079
Yes, it it it really is, because this is where it starts to make sense and that it is a long road, but healing is possible and you can have safe, loving relationships.
00:31:07.240 --> 00:31:11.880
That part that you were talking about there just a second ago, where it's all about him.
00:31:12.120 --> 00:31:16.440
You say that in one important way, an abusive man works like a magician.
00:31:16.599 --> 00:31:24.440
His tricks largely rely on getting you to look off in the wrong direction, distracting your attention so that you won't notice where the real action is.
00:31:24.599 --> 00:31:34.120
He draws you into focusing on the turbulent world of his feelings to keep your eyes turned away from the true cause of his abusiveness, which lies in how he thinks.
00:31:34.360 --> 00:31:41.559
He leads you into a convoluted maze, making your relationship with him a labyrinth of twists and turns.
00:31:42.200 --> 00:31:43.079
Oh, I like it.
00:31:43.319 --> 00:31:43.559
Yeah.
00:31:43.720 --> 00:31:45.319
Yeah, Londi, they're good words.
00:31:45.400 --> 00:31:46.440
They're yours.
00:31:46.680 --> 00:31:48.440
I'm not taking any ownership in them.
00:31:48.519 --> 00:31:49.000
They're yours.
00:31:49.319 --> 00:31:50.120
Tell me about that.
00:31:50.200 --> 00:31:52.039
Tell me about then how he thinks.
00:31:52.120 --> 00:32:00.519
So, this um magician, this smokes and mirrors, this deflection to get you off in another way, or even to feel sorry for me, the child.
00:32:00.680 --> 00:32:03.400
Tell me then in your experience how he thinks.
00:32:03.960 --> 00:32:14.120
So, so his beliefs, when you start to identify them, then they become like, oh my gosh, how did I not see those before?
00:32:14.279 --> 00:32:17.079
But you're not likely to notice them unless someone has ever pointed them out.
00:32:17.160 --> 00:32:19.480
So it's not your fault that you haven't seen them before.
00:32:19.720 --> 00:32:25.000
But for example, he really believes that his needs fundamentally come ahead of yours.
00:32:25.160 --> 00:32:32.360
And that if there's a little time and energy in life or a little money in life left over at the end, then you can have a little bit, depending on the abuser.
00:32:32.440 --> 00:32:34.039
Sometimes you can't have anything.
00:32:34.279 --> 00:32:37.640
But but what's going on with him really matters.
00:32:37.880 --> 00:32:44.440
And and it's so that's the first thing is he his needs fundamentally are much more important.
00:32:44.519 --> 00:32:50.120
And you, anytime you realize he has strong needs, you should give your needs up.
00:32:51.160 --> 00:32:57.079
And he'll show that in all kinds of he'll he's not gonna say that, but he's gonna show it in all kinds of ways.
00:32:57.319 --> 00:33:04.360
Like if you say, Well, this is really important to me too, he's not gonna think, oh, okay, so we have to have a tricky negotiation here.
00:33:04.519 --> 00:33:07.559
His attitude is gonna be, you don't realize how important this is to me.
00:33:07.640 --> 00:33:10.120
And it's all back to how his needs should come first.
00:33:10.759 --> 00:33:12.440
So that's a really key attitude.
00:33:12.599 --> 00:33:19.160
Secondly, when you're talking there, it it really is like the toddler having a tantrum, but it's not a toddler, it's a it's a grown man.
00:33:19.400 --> 00:33:29.319
But it really is that like I need to be prioritized at all times, and nothing you can even there, if you say that you like the same thing as me, no, this is mine and you can't have it.
00:33:29.640 --> 00:33:38.759
It feels a lot like dealing with a with a young toddler's tantrum, except that it's a very, very deeply ingrained belief system.
00:33:38.839 --> 00:33:46.200
It's not an emotional reaction, and it looks like it's just an emotional reaction, but it's not an emotional reaction that's coming from being two years old.
00:33:46.440 --> 00:33:50.039
It's an emotional reaction that's coming from a very deep belief system.
00:33:50.279 --> 00:33:54.920
If you're involved with me, then your job in life is to do for me.
00:33:55.400 --> 00:33:56.039
Yes.
00:33:56.279 --> 00:34:02.279
And early in a relationship, it's all about what we're gonna do for each other, but you start to realize that that's just words on a deep level.
00:34:02.519 --> 00:34:12.519
He believes that a woman that he's that women were put on this earth to do for men once they're involved with them in a relationship, in an intimate partner relationship.
00:34:12.839 --> 00:34:13.960
This makes sense to me.
00:34:14.039 --> 00:34:18.519
And I love that you're just even the language you're putting it on, the difference because you're right.
00:34:18.679 --> 00:34:23.000
Uh a two-year-old's obviously emotional tantrum, is an emotional tantrum.
00:34:23.159 --> 00:34:33.639
But the difference there, when I look at this through a narcissistic lens, and I agree with you what you say in the book, that not all abusers are narcissists, but all narcissists are abusers.
00:34:33.719 --> 00:34:41.639
And when I look at this through the narcissistic lens, you don't exist as your own person with your own wants, beliefs, preferences, and boundaries.
00:34:41.799 --> 00:34:44.360
You are just there to serve me, the narcissist.
00:34:44.519 --> 00:34:48.039
And when you are not there to serve me, you you don't exist.
00:34:48.199 --> 00:34:53.079
Like I only think of you through what you can do and give for me.
00:34:53.319 --> 00:35:02.360
So that's the level of what you're talking about here with abusive men, the entitlement that the woman is here to serve me and that that is fundamentally at their core belief.
00:35:02.440 --> 00:35:07.319
And then the behaviors and emotions are are coming from this belief.
00:35:07.480 --> 00:35:09.000
Is that what you're saying?
00:35:09.319 --> 00:35:10.679
That's exactly it, Katie.
00:35:10.839 --> 00:35:25.079
And that's why, and here's something I would love to underline for folks if you think back over the years, you'll notice that all the efforts you made to make him feel better didn't help at all, except for brief periods of time.
00:35:25.239 --> 00:35:31.000
You might have gotten through a particular day and kept some disaster from happening by catering through his feelings.
00:35:31.239 --> 00:35:33.480
That's I'm glad you were able to do that.
00:35:33.639 --> 00:35:36.279
But you're not, you can't do that day after day after day after day.
00:35:36.440 --> 00:35:38.039
Pretty soon the bad stuff is happening.
00:35:38.119 --> 00:35:44.039
And if you look back at your own history, this is what you'll see that you were never able, you weren't able to manage him except for brief periods of time.
00:35:44.119 --> 00:35:45.960
And then it was back to him being awful.
00:35:46.280 --> 00:35:46.840
This is huge.
00:35:46.920 --> 00:35:47.400
This is huge.
00:35:47.559 --> 00:35:48.920
I need you to stay with us, Lundy, right?
00:35:49.000 --> 00:36:02.599
Because when I think of the narcissistic parent, right, from the child, there's an illusion of power that so I call the parentified child that grows up with the narcissist, and there's an illusion of power because they are told one by the enabling parent, but they're also told by their abusive parent.
00:36:02.760 --> 00:36:15.400
I think both are abusive, by the way, but they're told that you have the power because you made me angry, or you made me sad, or if you just didn't do this thing, or if you did X, Y, or Z, you could have essentially made me happy, or you made me sad or angry.
00:36:15.559 --> 00:36:19.880
And so there's this illusion of power that the parentified child grows up with.
00:36:20.039 --> 00:36:38.360
And there's something in the way that you're talking there that I think that this belief then can happen in relationships, that I have an illusion of power now in my romantic relationship, that that perhaps I did rescue you from that awful distressing thing, or maybe that there might have been change.
00:36:38.519 --> 00:36:45.719
But again, you're talking about to zoom out here and see did any of this last, or was this just a moment in time?
00:36:46.039 --> 00:36:50.679
This one day I managed to keep him by catering to him from ruining my kid's birthday.
00:36:50.920 --> 00:36:53.559
But is has there been any change in the pattern over the years?
00:36:53.719 --> 00:36:53.960
No.
00:36:54.280 --> 00:37:01.880
And next year, if the same thing happens again, if I don't prioritize him and make sure that he gets what he wants, will he ruin the kid's birthday?
00:37:02.039 --> 00:37:03.079
Yes, absolutely.
00:37:03.320 --> 00:37:06.760
So that's certainly true that you just have to cater to him endlessly.
00:37:06.920 --> 00:37:14.039
But also, even if you catered to him almost perfectly, it's still not, it's still gonna have times when even that won't work.
00:37:14.199 --> 00:37:15.079
Yeah, it's never enough.
00:37:15.400 --> 00:37:20.199
But even if it did work, what would catering to him endlessly do to your life?
00:37:20.440 --> 00:37:22.119
And what would that do to your children's lives?
00:37:22.280 --> 00:37:24.920
Because it means you're having to focus on his needs instead of theirs.
00:37:25.079 --> 00:37:27.800
Yes, it's important that you can manage him certain days.
00:37:27.880 --> 00:37:28.679
I'm glad you can do it.
00:37:28.760 --> 00:37:32.119
It's important to your survival, it's important to your children's well-being if you have children.
00:37:32.280 --> 00:37:36.440
But yes, it's important to also notice that you're not actually managing him over time.
00:37:36.519 --> 00:37:39.719
You're just managing some days to get through past certain things.
00:37:39.960 --> 00:37:41.159
There's such a freedom in that.
00:37:41.320 --> 00:37:45.159
I I don't know why that's just being like a light bulb moment in me for that.
00:37:45.320 --> 00:37:53.320
There's a freedom in the I actually don't have that power because there, again, there's an illusion of power in that, either in the blame, right?
00:37:53.400 --> 00:37:59.159
That I've done this thing to make him mad, or that I've appeased him and done the right thing.
00:37:59.320 --> 00:38:02.679
And you saying that actually, this isn't about you.
00:38:02.840 --> 00:38:06.280
This isn't about you at all because this is his makeup and his demeanor.
00:38:06.440 --> 00:38:12.199
And an abusive person is gonna continue to be abusive regardless of what you do.
00:38:12.519 --> 00:38:15.639
You will not be able to change that pattern over time.
00:38:15.800 --> 00:38:17.719
And I can understand why that could feel liberating.
00:38:17.880 --> 00:38:21.480
I haven't thought of it in that way, but but I can understand why that would feel liberating.
00:38:21.559 --> 00:38:28.119
Because if you can't, if you've if you're convinced that you have the power to change it, then you feel like it's your responsibility to change it.
00:38:29.000 --> 00:38:33.559
And realize, well, I don't have that power, then you've also just been freed of the responsibility.
00:38:33.639 --> 00:38:35.240
You're realizing I can't do it.
00:38:35.400 --> 00:38:47.400
Like I, and and the one thing that I came to say more and more in later years, I don't think I said this in why does he do that, not in these words, although I said it in some other ways, is the abuser is going to live his script.
00:38:47.559 --> 00:38:51.000
You just happen to have stumbled onto the stage, but he's gonna live his script.
00:38:51.159 --> 00:38:56.599
And the abuser will often say, Oh, well, I wouldn't be behaving this way if I were involved with a different woman.
00:38:56.840 --> 00:39:03.639
And when I've got clients in a group for abusers, I'm always telling them, this is how you behave in every relationship that you're at all invested in.
00:39:03.800 --> 00:39:14.119
Now, they often were better to some women in in quick casual relationships where they weren't invested, but in any relationship you're invested in, and he says, Oh, I need to get a woman that's with a woman that's a better match for me.
00:39:14.199 --> 00:39:18.119
And I always say to my client, you get with a woman who's a better match for you, you're gonna be even worse to her.
00:39:19.000 --> 00:39:19.320
Yeah.
00:39:19.559 --> 00:39:28.199
So that is one of the fundamental messages that I like to get out to women is you didn't do anything to make this pattern unfold.
00:39:28.360 --> 00:39:33.159
You have nothing to do with why he didn't wasn't that way at the beginning and now is that way.
00:39:33.240 --> 00:39:36.519
He's telling you it's because of you that he's not the way he was at the beginning.
00:39:36.599 --> 00:39:37.880
It's got nothing to do with you.
00:39:38.039 --> 00:39:39.719
It doesn't matter what woman he's involved with.
00:39:39.800 --> 00:39:43.639
If he's in a lasting, significant relationship, the pattern is going to come out exactly the same.
00:39:43.880 --> 00:39:44.920
I completely agree with you.
00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:51.559
And I wonder from your experience, do you think that they believed their narrative?
00:39:51.719 --> 00:39:58.039
I understand the belief that they feel entitled and that the woman should serve them, as what all abusers do, that you should be in servitude.
00:39:58.280 --> 00:40:16.519
But when you were talking about, and I and I read it in the book, that when the abuser would come in first if they were uh forced to go to therapy in some way, and the lies and manipulation that they would tell and how convincing they would be to you until you would um have the woman in and actually hear to the extent of the abuse.
00:40:17.240 --> 00:40:23.079
What was your experience when you would hold them accountable for their behavior?
00:40:23.400 --> 00:40:27.960
That would vary tremendously from abuser to abuser, how they responded to being called out.
00:40:28.119 --> 00:40:28.360
Yeah.
00:40:28.679 --> 00:40:34.360
And and we generally wouldn't call them out with things that the woman told us because then then he could get her back.
00:40:34.599 --> 00:40:37.960
Sometimes she would want us, she would say, it's worth the risk, go after him, you know.
00:40:38.039 --> 00:40:39.320
And then, well, that's her decision.
00:40:39.400 --> 00:40:40.360
But we would want to do that.
00:40:40.440 --> 00:40:41.719
We we were reluctant to do that.
00:40:41.800 --> 00:40:49.639
But we we had ways to call him out on things that he admitted himself or on things that were in the court record, or there's always defensiveness, there's always excuses.
00:40:50.039 --> 00:41:00.280
And and sometimes there starts to be an impression of that he's really looking at himself, but it almost always turns out to be that he's just continuing with us the same manipulations that he's done with women.
00:41:00.519 --> 00:41:09.400
You said that it's virtually unheard of for an abusive man to make substantial and lasting changes in his pattern of abusiveness as a result of therapy.
00:41:09.559 --> 00:41:28.599
And I think that is one of the hopes I often hear from women that, well, if he just went to therapy, or even if he went to couples therapy, and we already talked about it, well, I don't know if we did actually, how harmful I think that can be when an abuser is in couples therapy, if the therapist isn't aware of what abuse is and can uh be harmful.
00:41:28.760 --> 00:41:34.840
But you categorically say here, yeah, that as a result of any therapy, that it's not going to make lasting change.
00:41:35.240 --> 00:41:39.639
Yeah, and and and properly run battery intervention does not look anything like therapy, by the way.
00:41:40.119 --> 00:41:45.320
Properly run abuse counseling, in other words, properly run batter intervention is is not in any sense a therapeutic program.
00:41:45.400 --> 00:41:48.039
It's a re-education changing your mentality program.
00:41:48.280 --> 00:41:51.960
Even there, where we have some success, it's still not common.
00:41:52.039 --> 00:41:53.079
It still takes years of work.
00:41:53.159 --> 00:41:55.559
But yes, any kind of psychotherapy, zero.
00:41:55.639 --> 00:41:59.719
I never and this is again, this is I know this is going to be hard for some people to hear.
00:42:00.039 --> 00:42:00.519
Zero.
00:42:00.679 --> 00:42:08.920
I never once saw a man make any significant lasting changes in how he treats female partners from any form of therapy.
00:42:09.639 --> 00:42:16.280
Uh individual, uh, did this theory, that theory, this approach, that approach, couples counsel, couples counseling tends to make him worse.
00:42:16.440 --> 00:42:17.320
Yes, I agree.
00:42:17.559 --> 00:42:19.880
And uh, and you just you made some reference to that.
00:42:20.119 --> 00:42:24.920
And so, but that's see, that's another indication that the problem is not his unhappiness.
00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:29.960
Because if the problem is his unhappiness, we would at least see some guys improving from being in therapy.
00:42:30.039 --> 00:42:32.440
How come we never see any guys improving from being in therapy?
00:42:32.519 --> 00:42:34.360
Because his unhappiness is not the problem.
00:42:34.519 --> 00:42:41.480
I've never seen a guy improve from other things improving in his life because he got a better job, because his health finally improved.
00:42:41.639 --> 00:42:48.840
It's like you see a pr improvements from those things and how he treats his partner for a number of months, and then it's right back to the same old stuff.
00:42:49.400 --> 00:43:00.840
So that's one of the ways we can most see, most viscerally see that uh trying to address his emotional issues is not going to do anything about how he treats women.
00:43:01.079 --> 00:43:07.559
That's it's a his emotional issues may also need to be addressed, but it's a separate separate problem from how you're treating female partners.
00:43:07.719 --> 00:43:13.960
And some abusers are uh in quite good shape psychologically, believe it or not.
00:43:14.360 --> 00:43:20.519
Uh because they've just so thoroughly absorbed this societal conditioning towards entitlement.
00:43:20.599 --> 00:43:31.880
You were talking about this entitlement, towards oppressiveness, is how I tend to characterize it, that that they don't have to have any more psychological problems than any other man.
00:43:32.039 --> 00:43:43.480
One of the researchers that I most respect, Edward Gondorf, did research comparing the level of mental health problems in abusive men to non-abusive men, and did not find a huge difference.
00:43:43.559 --> 00:43:51.480
But he there was a little uptick in the abusive men compared to non-abusive men, not actually in major mental illness, but there was a little uptick in personality disorder, like narcissism.
00:43:51.639 --> 00:43:55.480
Not nearly as big an uptick as he expected or as other researchers expected.
00:43:55.639 --> 00:44:02.599
It was only a small uptick, and that there's really just not huge, the mental health is just not a good clue to what's to what's going on.
00:44:02.920 --> 00:44:09.639
Personality disorder, like narcissism, for example, is particularly compatible with abusiveness for reasons that you've already pointed out earlier in our conversation.
00:44:09.719 --> 00:44:15.960
So they do go together well, but that doesn't mean that one is that the personality disorder is causing the abusiveness.
00:44:16.199 --> 00:44:21.559
I love that you say that because a lot of people uh stay in the relationship and try to define it.
00:44:21.639 --> 00:44:26.599
Well, if it's narcissism and if they're a narcissist, well, then I can leave because then there's no hope.
00:44:26.920 --> 00:44:38.360
But if this is just, and I'm saying just inadverted commas, but if this is just bad behavior and if it's just emotional, and well then there's this, I think, often held belief that I should be able to tolerate it.
00:44:38.519 --> 00:44:50.360
Whereas you are completely uh flipping that on its head here and rightly so, and saying, no, the the abuse is the problem and they're not going to change, and they don't have to have a mental health disorder to be abusive.
00:44:50.679 --> 00:45:00.599
And that means we're also hitting up over and over and over against the heavy conditioning that there is to girls and women to believe that it's your job to put up with stuff.
00:45:00.920 --> 00:45:04.679
So so then you have to deal with your whole life history in that respect too.
00:45:04.840 --> 00:45:06.440
It's really, it's really challenging.
00:45:06.679 --> 00:45:08.519
Yeah, from the micro and then the macro.
00:45:08.679 --> 00:45:19.240
So even if somebody does grow up in a healthy enough environment, they're still going to be receiving these messages that, yeah, women to be subservient and to be giving and loving and to not be angry societally.
00:45:19.400 --> 00:45:20.679
Yeah, there was something you said there.
00:45:20.760 --> 00:45:21.719
I wrote it down.
00:45:21.880 --> 00:45:29.159
Um, what I was talking about entitlement, and you said that you uh talk about that as the did you say oppressiveness?
00:45:29.240 --> 00:45:30.519
Can you say a little bit more about that?
00:45:30.840 --> 00:45:38.920
Oppression is the notion that I'm I'm inherently, by my very nature, Just by being who I am, superior to some other people.
00:45:39.079 --> 00:45:39.400
Yes.
00:45:39.559 --> 00:45:42.920
And I therefore get then to extract things from them.
00:45:43.000 --> 00:45:44.360
It's an extraction mentality.
00:45:44.519 --> 00:45:45.159
To extract them.
00:45:46.199 --> 00:45:47.559
I get to make you work for me.
00:45:47.639 --> 00:45:51.880
If I'm rich and you're a blue-collar, you know, working, you work with your hands.
00:45:52.039 --> 00:45:58.199
If you're a if I'm a man and you're a woman, I get to, you know, make you cater to me physically, sexually, emotionally in all kinds of ways.
00:45:58.360 --> 00:46:13.800
If I'm an adult and you're a child, I get to, you know, require you to erase yourself in all kinds of ways and be a rigid automaton and and meet my needs for a child that turns out like me, even if that's the worst thing your child could possibly turn out to be.
00:46:14.119 --> 00:46:20.519
And so it's yeah, so I talk a lot about oppressiveness and and the extraction mentality.
00:46:20.920 --> 00:46:24.679
It's it's this mentality of I get to use other human beings for my purposes.
00:46:24.840 --> 00:46:40.599
And so the to me, the the the home where there's a domestic abuser is in many ways a microcosm of a slave-owning system or a military dick dictatorship or all kinds of other systems, like extraction-oriented, a factory, you know, a sweatshop.
00:46:40.840 --> 00:46:48.280
And and at the at the core of that is entitlement, the sense of like, I get to do this thing.
00:46:48.360 --> 00:46:59.320
So I was really glad when you used the term entitlement, which I hadn't brought up today, but that that's really what's at the core is I get to do this because of who I am and because of who you are, I'm entitled to it.
00:46:59.480 --> 00:47:01.320
I love that you're talking about this in terms of systems.
00:47:01.480 --> 00:47:09.240
I literally just the episode before this one talked about the systems of abuse in terms of colonialism.
00:47:09.400 --> 00:47:12.920
So I grew up in Ireland and I talked about that when we were colonized.
00:47:13.000 --> 00:47:32.360
And I looked at how the abuser colonized us and just denied us our language, our right, and saw us as inferior and less than, and the to exploit, to exploit uh everything from us, and also then a narrative that they are doing good and kind things for us, right?
00:47:32.519 --> 00:47:33.159
Giving to us.
00:47:33.240 --> 00:47:47.320
The same with the narcissistic parent, that they will exploit the child, whether it's emotional resources to treat the child as a best friend or confidant or mini therapist, or exploit the child of their um working ability, their labor.
00:47:47.400 --> 00:47:54.360
It's either emotional or physical labor, and then tell the child that this is all for your own good and I'm doing this for you.
00:47:55.079 --> 00:48:12.039
While what's really been driven is their sense of superiority and entitlement, and they're not considering you at all as a person, as a child, or as a people, if we're talking about in terms of system, they're not seeing you as an individual with your own wants, needs, preferences, and boundaries.
00:48:12.199 --> 00:48:23.639
And I think this, if I'm right, is what you're saying with abusive men, that they don't view women as an equal, that you have the same rights as I do, the same wants as I do.
00:48:23.719 --> 00:48:26.199
And I don't want the best for you.
00:48:26.360 --> 00:48:33.320
I want to take from you because I am an oppressor and I will, I want that control and dominance over you.
00:48:33.400 --> 00:48:36.920
I want everything for me because I feel so entitled to it.
00:48:37.000 --> 00:48:38.280
Like it's my God-given right.
00:48:38.440 --> 00:48:41.000
Like I believe it so fundamentally, I don't even have to question it.
00:48:41.400 --> 00:48:46.440
I'm very happy to hear you make those connections, Katie, because I don't hear people make them that often.
00:48:46.760 --> 00:48:49.320
And and to me, they absolutely go together.
00:48:49.480 --> 00:48:55.000
And and it's painful to talk about the Irish experience, but I'm so glad you did talk about the Irish experience because it is.
00:48:55.079 --> 00:48:55.880
It's the same thing.
00:48:56.199 --> 00:48:57.880
Well, obviously, I don't have to tell you, but the last thing.
00:48:58.119 --> 00:48:58.920
Yeah, well, I think so.
00:48:59.000 --> 00:49:02.519
I think that narcissism and abuse is interpersonal colonization.
00:49:02.679 --> 00:49:05.880
It's a colonization of somebody's mind and body.
00:49:06.039 --> 00:49:10.199
And so I talk about even the last one about how I really hard.
00:49:10.280 --> 00:49:19.559
So I want to learn Irish, but I have to deconstruct my English thinking because Ireland was right, like Irish was around like over a thousand years before English.
00:49:19.719 --> 00:49:21.800
And so it doesn't uh transcribe.
00:49:21.880 --> 00:49:31.240
So when we're talking about the confusion of abuse, when you haven't been given your own autonomy in your own mind, you have to deconstruct then what's been said.
00:49:31.400 --> 00:49:42.679
And so I'm trying to learn Irish, and it takes so much work because I have to deconstruct the English first to translate it into it, but it but it doesn't translate and it it takes time.
00:49:42.840 --> 00:49:48.920
So it's it's this I call it mindfuckery, the mindfuckery of abuse that it it colonizes your mind.
00:49:49.079 --> 00:49:56.360
And a and an abuser, and so here in your book, an abusive man will colonize uh a woman's mind.
00:49:56.760 --> 00:49:59.880
I think that's an absolutely accurate comparison.
00:50:00.039 --> 00:50:10.119
And the and we see, for example, that abusive men have far higher rates than other men, like six or seven times the rate of other men of abusing children.
00:50:10.360 --> 00:50:15.800
So it's like it comes with the territory of that exploitative mentality.
00:50:16.760 --> 00:50:17.719
Can you talk a little bit?
00:50:17.800 --> 00:50:25.000
I know we're coming up to the end of time, uh, the work then that you've done since and now focused on children being brought up in this environment.
00:50:25.159 --> 00:50:29.320
Because I know that a lot of women would say, Well, he's a good father.
00:50:29.559 --> 00:50:34.760
Yeah, he's he's only uh cruel or uh mean or abusive to me, like he's he's a good father.
00:50:34.920 --> 00:50:36.199
What what would you say to that?
00:50:36.599 --> 00:50:39.400
And by the way, people in the legal system keep saying the same thing.
00:50:39.639 --> 00:50:47.639
Judges will say the same thing, and and that's abusing children's mother is terrible parenting.
00:50:48.280 --> 00:50:52.039
If you care about your children, you don't abuse their mother.
00:50:52.280 --> 00:50:59.800
It's it's so easy to see the effect on the children of abusing their mother, like it's right before your eyes in all kinds of ways.
00:50:59.960 --> 00:51:01.559
It's impossible to miss, in fact.
00:51:01.719 --> 00:51:03.880
So that in itself is a contradiction in terms.
00:51:03.960 --> 00:51:06.039
You know, he abuses the woman, but he's a good father.
00:51:06.119 --> 00:51:10.519
It's like, no, that's not possible because abusing their mother is horrible parenting.
00:51:10.679 --> 00:51:11.000
Yes.
00:51:11.240 --> 00:51:16.280
And and that that's and this research shows that's one of the worst things you can do for kids is abuse their mother.
00:51:16.519 --> 00:51:23.639
But let's also look more carefully at what he's really doing as a father, because talk about double standards.
00:51:23.719 --> 00:51:28.599
I mean, we tend to have completely different standards for what makes a good mom than what makes a good dad.
00:51:28.840 --> 00:51:34.280
And what makes a good dad is he shows up once in a while and is fun and nice, you know.
00:51:34.360 --> 00:51:36.440
But yeah, was he there to clean up the vomit?
00:51:36.599 --> 00:51:38.360
Was he there to do the diaper changes?
00:51:38.599 --> 00:51:45.000
How many times was he willing to give up his sleep in the middle of the night when mom was constantly having to get up to give her sleep in the middle of the night?
00:51:45.480 --> 00:51:52.039
How much has he been willing to sacrifice other things that he really wanted to do because he needed to be there for his family?
00:51:52.199 --> 00:51:53.400
That's parenting.
00:51:53.559 --> 00:52:06.599
And one of one of the one of my philosophies has become most partly because I've raised children, uh, they're adults now, but is that once you're a parent, everything you do is a parenting decision.
00:52:07.880 --> 00:52:11.880
And the way this was really brought home to me is that I do some things that are somewhat risky.
00:52:12.440 --> 00:52:13.960
I'm I'm a rock climber.
00:52:15.079 --> 00:52:21.719
And I had to realize once I had children that decisions I made about climbing were parenting decisions.
00:52:22.599 --> 00:52:26.039
And the abuser's gonna insist, that's a completely what's I gotta do with your parents.
00:52:27.960 --> 00:52:40.440
If I kill myself or get myself really seriously injured rock climbing, which I did I didn't kill myself, obviously, but I got myself very seriously injured, that has implications for my child.
00:52:40.760 --> 00:52:40.920
Yeah.
00:52:41.159 --> 00:52:44.920
I was making a parenting decision by taking the kind of risks that I was taking.
00:52:45.400 --> 00:53:01.079
When when you're talking about that, I think a lot of people either again from their own conditioning or just by uh, you know, on society's standards, I think when they they hear that, they'll think that maybe you and that this line of work that you that you do that that this is not the case.
00:53:01.159 --> 00:53:03.320
But I so I want to share my own example in this.
00:53:03.639 --> 00:53:09.079
My husband loved uh motorbikes, loves, shouldn't say loved, uh loves motorbikes.
00:53:09.320 --> 00:53:15.639
And I too have such an appreciation for their beauty and their speed and love them.
00:53:16.039 --> 00:53:20.280
Um I I also will share that my sister was killed on a motorbike.
00:53:20.440 --> 00:53:28.760
And so I have that uh coming from that perspective of how dangerous they are, I don't, you know, I don't think that people are invincible on them and I see the fragility in that.
00:53:29.000 --> 00:53:44.679
So when we had kids, when you're talking about then every decision is a parenting decision, we talked about this, and I was saying if you have bikes around the house, you are just going to naturally feed a love of bikes for our kids.
00:53:44.840 --> 00:53:47.400
It's it's it will it can't not happen, right?
00:53:47.559 --> 00:53:49.960
Because you're gonna love them and they are gonna love them.
00:53:50.119 --> 00:53:53.400
And I said, Do you want that for our kids?
00:53:53.639 --> 00:53:56.920
Like, do you want them to do that?
00:53:57.079 --> 00:54:01.000
And I don't know as I'm saying this, if you and you can completely disagree, that's okay.
00:54:01.159 --> 00:54:05.159
But it was it was just taking every decision as a parenting decision.
00:54:05.240 --> 00:54:17.240
And he had to come up with it, his decision, you know, what he did, and and but that I think that is the point in what you're trying to make, that how we behave as parents, that it it all impacts.
00:54:17.320 --> 00:54:31.400
And so when we're talking about you like rock climbing or uh somebody's love of motorbikes, just two examples, how somebody then can dismiss in any way and say, well, how you treat their mother is not gonna impact your parenting.
00:54:31.800 --> 00:54:33.480
It's not gonna impact your children, that's ridiculous.
00:54:33.559 --> 00:54:35.079
It doesn't reflect on you as a parent.
00:54:35.320 --> 00:54:40.440
Yeah, and then and then and then uh by the way, I'm a I'm a I'm a motorbiker also.
00:54:40.760 --> 00:54:47.960
But um, but my my my kids were well into their adolescence before I got my first, so that you're you're making me feel a little better about that.
00:54:48.280 --> 00:54:48.840
Okay, yeah.
00:54:49.159 --> 00:54:51.800
But at least I wasn't doing it when they were young, and neither of them is taking it.
00:54:52.039 --> 00:54:53.480
And I just want to say that there's nothing wrong with that.
00:54:53.559 --> 00:54:56.039
And anybody that loves motorbikes, that does not mean that you're a bad parent.
00:54:56.199 --> 00:54:59.240
I just I just want to say that, right, for anybody listening.
00:54:59.480 --> 00:55:03.079
But it's just what you're talking about, the consideration in that.
00:55:03.320 --> 00:55:11.159
And an abuser would never, would never even consider it because of what you're talking about, that uh oppressiveness and their entitlement.
00:55:11.240 --> 00:55:19.079
They wouldn't even consider that they should in any way look inward or or in any way sacrifice.
00:55:19.159 --> 00:55:21.400
And again, I don't think that people should sacrifice their loves.
00:55:21.480 --> 00:55:22.360
I'm not talking about that.
00:55:22.440 --> 00:55:25.639
I'm just talking about that consideration is not even present.
00:55:26.039 --> 00:55:31.559
And I didn't give up rock climbing, but I realized I have to become much more thoughtful and aware of the choices that I'm making.
00:55:31.880 --> 00:55:47.159
And the and I'll make a point here that I know is gonna rub some people the wrong way, but I want to say this that when we talk about the parenting of mothers, we expect her whole spectrum of behavior, like we're saying, to be thoughtful about the impact on her children.
00:55:47.480 --> 00:55:49.880
When we're talking about the behavior of fathers, we don't.
00:55:50.519 --> 00:55:54.519
We don't say, well, his decision to quit his job was a parenting decision.
00:55:54.599 --> 00:55:58.039
And we should say decision to quit your job is absolutely a parenting decision.
00:55:58.119 --> 00:55:59.000
It has huge implications.
00:55:59.079 --> 00:56:02.519
Sometimes you may have to quit a job, but it has huge implications for your children if you quit your job.
00:56:02.760 --> 00:56:13.559
And in the same way, when we're talking about the other way, your decision to take on that um new job or that extra responsibility is a parenting decision because that is going to impact the household as well.
00:56:13.880 --> 00:56:26.760
If someone is making a decision that is horrible for their children and doing it over and over again at the level of abusing their mother, what are the chances that those are the only problems in his parenting?
00:56:27.880 --> 00:56:29.000
Pretty unlikely.
00:56:29.079 --> 00:56:31.079
It could be, but it's pretty unlikely.
00:56:31.240 --> 00:56:45.480
If you're showing horrible judgment, this isn't just regrettable judgment, this is horrible judgment in in one of your in one of your areas as a parent, then you're almost certainly going to be also using very bad judgment in some other aspects of your parenting.
00:56:45.559 --> 00:56:47.000
And that's what the research confirms.
00:56:47.159 --> 00:56:52.920
Study after study after study after study shows that abusers are harmful to their children in all kinds of other ways.
00:56:53.240 --> 00:56:57.159
Abusers of women are harmful to children in all kinds of other ways as well.
00:56:58.360 --> 00:56:59.800
Lundi, I I want to thank you.
00:56:59.880 --> 00:57:01.159
There's I picked up the book again.
00:57:01.320 --> 00:57:04.199
I was like, there's so many different areas that I could go to.
00:57:04.360 --> 00:57:19.480
But I suppose I want to just put it back to you that if somebody has listened to this, um, if they have read your book already, or if they um are going to get your book, if anybody resonates with this interview, I absolutely recommend that you get um Lundy's book.
00:57:19.719 --> 00:57:27.000
But what would the next step be for them if they recognize actually this is a really harmful relationship?
00:57:27.079 --> 00:57:36.440
And even as I say that at the beginning of the book, you say, look, if abuse is too strong of a word for you, this isn't something, now I'm paraphrasing here, but this isn't something that I'm, you know, that I'm gonna hang my hat on.
00:57:36.519 --> 00:57:38.920
Like you can say harmful, wrong.
00:57:39.079 --> 00:57:46.840
So if this is a harmful relationship that you're in, what would you offer their next step um to be if they're recognizing this?
00:57:47.000 --> 00:57:52.840
If if they've been floored by this episode, going, shit, yeah, that's I I recognize a lot of this in in me.
00:57:53.320 --> 00:57:56.920
And by the way, I tend to be, I tend a lot to use the word destructive.
00:57:57.240 --> 00:58:05.079
Destructive for people who get precisely because people get so caught up on, well, does this fit some proper definition of abuse?
00:58:05.159 --> 00:58:09.159
And I don't know that anyone's created a proper definition of abuse, but to not even get in that tangle.
00:58:09.240 --> 00:58:11.880
It's like, is this a destruct is this a destructive individual?
00:58:11.960 --> 00:58:14.199
Does this does he does he have destructive behavior patterns?
00:58:14.360 --> 00:58:16.679
And am I being harmed over time by it?
00:58:16.840 --> 00:58:17.159
Yes.
00:58:17.320 --> 00:58:26.840
But I feel like the number one priority is you need to connect with other women who've been through this and tell and be in in a in a context where you can tell the truth about what's happened.
00:58:27.480 --> 00:58:36.360
And because it's when you start to compare notes honestly with other women, it's like, oh my heavens.
00:58:36.519 --> 00:58:40.599
Like and while you're going through an experience, it feels very specific.
00:58:40.760 --> 00:58:47.880
It feels like specific to to your circumstances and specific to what your partner's like, and specific to the dynamics of your relationship.
00:58:48.119 --> 00:58:53.400
When people read why does he do that, over and over again, they're saying to me, I feel like you must have been in my house.
00:58:53.559 --> 00:58:55.800
Yes, like you must have been a fly on the wall of my house.
00:58:55.960 --> 00:59:03.000
And so suddenly you're realizing that what felt so individual and specific is actually rampant and is in no sense individual or specific.
00:59:03.159 --> 00:59:07.159
And that's again one of those realizations that's both painful and liberating.
00:59:07.480 --> 00:59:10.039
And so that's what I recommend the most.
00:59:10.199 --> 00:59:20.519
And the the single most valuable thing that women have shared with me over and over and over through the 30 year, 30 plus years that I've been in the field is support groups for abused women.
00:59:20.760 --> 00:59:23.320
And unfortunately, those are kind of somewhat out of fashion.
00:59:23.400 --> 00:59:25.240
A lot of places don't even offer them anymore.
00:59:25.320 --> 00:59:32.119
And there's a whole complicated set of reasons for well, the whole way that the modern world just moves towards more and more individualism.
00:59:33.000 --> 00:59:38.760
Uh, those those groups should be the top thing any service is trying to provide.
00:59:39.079 --> 00:59:41.320
And it should be the first place the women go.
00:59:41.559 --> 00:59:47.240
And the the and don't be concerned about, oh, am I not abused or I'm not battered.
00:59:47.400 --> 00:59:48.119
It's like it doesn't matter.
00:59:48.199 --> 00:59:55.240
You're being mistreated, you need to sit down and feel the love and support of other people who have been through this kind of experience.
00:59:55.400 --> 00:59:59.880
And that's also one of the ways that you start to realize that you're a decent human being.
01:00:00.199 --> 01:00:04.440
And and I I I read, I I for years I led these retreats.
01:00:04.519 --> 01:00:05.240
I haven't done it in years.
01:00:05.320 --> 01:00:06.599
I'll I'm thinking of starting them up again.
01:00:06.679 --> 01:00:12.519
There were weekend retreats for women who weren't with the abusive partner anymore to help them deal with after effects.
01:00:13.159 --> 01:00:21.880
And the women at those retreats would always comment at some point during the weekend, like, Whoa, these women here are amazing.
01:00:22.440 --> 01:00:25.559
And I would have to say, there's no selection process.
01:00:25.719 --> 01:00:27.719
Whoever signs up for this retreat comes.
01:00:27.880 --> 01:00:32.199
You're looking if you if these women look so amazing to you, you're looking in the mirror.
01:00:32.599 --> 01:00:33.079
Yeah.
01:00:33.639 --> 01:00:42.440
They so when you see these other really impressive people, then that reflects back to you something about what's perhaps the truth about who you are.
01:00:42.840 --> 01:00:49.400
On the podcast, um, every second series, myself and another therapist, we get letters in from victims of abuse.
01:00:49.480 --> 01:00:51.079
It is the parental relationship.
01:00:51.320 --> 01:01:01.639
And then when I work with clients, when they can have so much empathy for the letter writer and just what you're saying, well, if they deserve empathy, so do you.
01:01:01.800 --> 01:01:09.719
And there is something so powerful in the collective that this, like a book like yours, is so informative.
01:01:09.960 --> 01:01:25.400
But then collectively to sit around other women, other humans, and to realize that just just how textbook this is, like your your book, how textbook this is, that they are not alone, that understanding and to receive that compassion.
01:01:25.559 --> 01:01:28.760
And I think the fear can be twofold to stop it.
01:01:28.840 --> 01:01:32.599
Like you said, one, the fear of, well, what if it wasn't that bad, right?
01:01:32.679 --> 01:01:35.480
What if I'm making a mountain out of a molehill and it's not that bad?
01:01:35.639 --> 01:01:38.599
But also then the fear of, well, what if it is that bad?
01:01:38.840 --> 01:01:40.519
What if this is actually abuse?
01:01:40.679 --> 01:01:45.320
And then, you know, I might have to make some very difficult decisions.
01:01:45.480 --> 01:01:51.639
Um, and and either way, I think what you're saying, and I'm agreeing, is that is the first port of call in a group.
01:01:51.800 --> 01:01:56.920
And if you have too much fear in going into a group, there's so many uh support lines.
01:01:57.000 --> 01:01:58.679
I'm gonna put some in the show notes here.
01:01:58.840 --> 01:02:11.719
I had a wonderful woman on from a uh domestic violence uh support group here in Ireland at the beginning, and she was saying that when people phone first, that they don't even expect them to talk, that they just say, I am here on the line with you.
01:02:11.880 --> 01:02:28.440
And that just it to me just alleviated some of the fear that it's not that I have to have this in one clear, concise um not argument, but like point or story, that I can just be with you and you will be with me in that.
01:02:28.519 --> 01:02:31.159
And and there's safety, there's safety in that.
01:02:31.480 --> 01:02:41.719
And that also reminds me of another really important point is that one uh one thing that I find often keeps women from reaching out for a support group or a hotline or whatever is well, I I'm not ready to leave him.
01:02:41.800 --> 01:02:45.559
It's like that's not these these these services aren't about how to leave him.
01:02:45.639 --> 01:02:49.880
Yes, they they if you decide that you need to leave him, they'll help you figure out how to do that.
01:02:49.960 --> 01:02:51.480
But that's not what these services are about.
01:02:51.639 --> 01:02:55.079
These services are about regaining your dignity and your sense of self-worth.
01:02:55.320 --> 01:02:57.000
Oh, I love that you said that.
01:02:58.119 --> 01:03:01.079
And so go ahead, don't maybe you'll never decide to leave him.
01:03:01.159 --> 01:03:03.079
Someone and for various reasons can't ever.
01:03:03.639 --> 01:03:04.599
That's a whole other subject.
01:03:04.679 --> 01:03:08.280
So it may not even really be a realistic option for you for various reasons.
01:03:08.519 --> 01:03:12.440
That doesn't that so that's go go get go connect, go connect.
01:03:12.599 --> 01:03:14.519
Yeah, can you just say that again before we go?
01:03:14.679 --> 01:03:17.880
You're going for you to regain your dignity.
01:03:18.440 --> 01:03:22.119
You regain your dignity and your sense of self-worth.
01:03:22.360 --> 01:03:26.920
It's that's what you deserve, and that's what's gonna help the quality of your life most in the long run.
01:03:27.079 --> 01:03:31.320
If you have children, that's what's gonna help the quality of your children's lives the most in the long run.
01:03:31.559 --> 01:03:32.760
Lundy, that is huge.
01:03:32.920 --> 01:03:34.760
Thank you so much for anybody watching this.
01:03:34.840 --> 01:03:36.519
You can see the book that I have here.
01:03:36.599 --> 01:03:40.920
Uh, why does he do that inside the minds of angry and controlling men?
01:03:41.079 --> 01:03:43.719
Lundy, thank you so much for being here with me today.
01:03:43.800 --> 01:03:46.360
And I will link the book in the show notes.
01:03:46.599 --> 01:03:47.000
Beautiful.
01:03:47.079 --> 01:03:47.559
Thanks so much.
01:03:47.800 --> 01:03:49.400
Thanks everybody for being with us here today.
01:03:49.559 --> 01:03:54.199
Again, I will link some of those numbers in the show notes, and I will see you again next week.
01:03:54.360 --> 01:03:55.000
Take care.
01:03:55.159 --> 01:03:55.559
Bye.
01:03:55.800 --> 01:03:57.159
Great being part of this conversation.
01:03:57.240 --> 01:03:57.719
Thank you.

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