"She's The Man"

Welcome back to Analyze Scripts, where a psychiatrist and a therapist analyze what Hollywood gets right and wrong about mental health. Today, we are discussing "She's the Man," a 2006 film starring Amanda Bynes and Channing Tatum. Did you know this movie is based on the Shakespeare's play "Twelfth Night?" This is arguably one of Amanda Bynes' best performances. She is hilarious, captivating and witty. We discuss gender identity and sexuality at great lengths in this episode. Dr. Furey provides us with some medical facts about sex organs and we talk about where a person can fall on the gender expression spectrum. You don't want to miss this one, we hope you enjoy!

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Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Hi, I'm Dr. Katrina Fieri, a psychiatrist.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And I'm Portia Pendleton, a licensed clinical social worker.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And this is Analyze Scripts, a podcast where two shrinks analyze the depiction of mental health in movies and TV shows.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Our hope is that you learn some legit info about mental health while feeling like you're chatting with your girlfriends.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: There is so much misinformation out there, and it drives us nuts.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And if someday we pay off our student loans or land a sponsorship, like.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: With a lay flat airline or a major beauty brand, even better.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So sit back, relax, grab some popcorn.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And your DSM five, and enjoy.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Welcome back to another episode of Analyze Scripts. We are so excited to be covering the movie she's the man, which came out in 2006 and starred Amanda Bynes and Channing Tatum.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Whoa. I'd never seen this movie before. It's almost 20 years old. Isn't that crazy to think about?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I've seen it many times.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: That's interesting. Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Like, loved it. One of my favorite movies from, like, teenhood.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Nice. I think this is, again, where I feel really old, but that's okay. So, this movie was based on a play by Shakespeare the 12th night. Right.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So I didn't know that until I did research for this podcast episode.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Because we're professional.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. Because we want to plan things out. But apparently it's based on the Shakespeare's play, and it's about even by name. Viola and her twin brother Sebastian, they're shipwrecked. They believe that each other drowned. So Viola disguises herself as a young man in order to get a job as a servant for Duke, the Duke of what is it? Or Sino. And it's, like, funny because Duke is played by Tatum. So I had no idea that there were all these references to this.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right, right. And I think it's just interesting. Right. Like, a girl dressing up as a boy, how that has been in culture and society forever. Right. Really interesting to talk about this movie now, just, again, in the political climate of today and everything going on in terms of gender identity.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. So we see. Amanda Bynes did a lot of work at this time in some other movies that I absolutely loved. One of them, she goes to, I think, like, England or something to find her long last dad, and then she's absolutely a gem. So she was 20 when this was filmed. Channing Tatum was 26, which I think.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Is we always kind of laugh at.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: People who play high school role.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right. They were totally in high school. Yeah. And he was 26. Yeah. It was funny to see Channing Tatum as, like, a youngster and just be like, he really bulked up for magic Mike. Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: This was even pre, like, the dance movies, not magic. Step up. Step.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yep. And I did find it hard to watch. I'll be Amanda Bynes, like, in her quote unquote prime, given what we sort of have seen happen to her. And again, we're not here to offer any thoughts about someone's personal mental health issues, but I think, Portia, you were pointing out that she's 20 years old in this movie, and around age 24, things started to change for her, which we do see in terms of when women tend to develop significant mental health issues.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. And something that I learned more recently as well is that Amanda Bynes actually really lobbied to have Channing Tatum in this role. And it was his first role where he was like a main character.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I think I did read that somewhere. I think you recently said that or was giving an interview about that, how we really appreciated that.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah, so that was sweet. And then we have some other cast members who I thought most notably Daphne, who plays Viola, and Sebastian's mom, played by Julie Hagerty, was also the mom and wife in what about Bob?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And she kind of played the same kind of like a loop, stitzy, disconnected character. I thought it was really funny. The whole thread of the debutante ball is that something that happens up here in the Northeast. So growing up in the south, this is like a thing. And it seemed know, I believe, like, debutante balls back in the day were for maybe even still presently. Like, I remember a couple years ago, reese Witherspoon's daughter was like, in a debutante ball, it's supposed to be like the way high society girls are introduced to society and maybe meet a suitor. Interestingly. Just yesterday I saw a New York Times article about debutante balls or like, debutante societies, but in an African American community, I believe in Detroit or somewhere in Michigan, and how those women really appreciate the balls because it helps them find mentors. So it's interesting because I always thought it was like to find a husband, but it sounds like at least in this community, it shifted a bit to find mentors, which I thought was really positive growing up in the south. I did go to something called Catillion.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Okay.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Have you heard of what that is? Which they sort of depicted, like, when Amanda Bynes'character is coming in and they're all eating on china and stuff like that. I just remember I had to wear these white gloves and learn how to handshake and how to curtsy. And we had homework assignments in between the sessions where you'd have to shake certain people's hands and they'd have to sign off and you had to learn all these fancy dances like the foxtrot.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I mean, that's exactly what I envisioned it being.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah, I hated it. I remember I used to pretend to have stomach aches so I wouldn't have to go. And then the final dance, you're supposed to dance with all these boys and it was like in 6th grade or something. I just hated it. So sorry. Mom, if you're listening, I just really didn't love it. But that's sort of spot on depicted, I think, in see.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So it's kind of just the plot is that Amanda, bynes Viola's character, learns that her high school women's soccer team is being cut, but due to low.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Participation numbers and she is really into soccer.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right. We see the opening scene. They're playing on the beach. She seems like she has a good relationship with her boyfriend and her friend. He seems supportive in the moment. So they are really upset and they kind of go up to the boys soccer team and they want to play, and the coach is kind of like, laughing. Like, that's absurd. You can't do that.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Can't play with the boys.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Exactly. And so girls aren't fat. Initially, it seems like they're not even going to let them try out, which, per Title IX, if there is not an alternative sport, then they have to be allowed to try out.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Can you explain portia for our listeners what Title IX is?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So Title IX basically is for education systems and kind of guarantees equal treatment. And what we're seeing now is a lot of Title Nine being brought up with gender identification in sports. So basically it guarantees an equal amount of so I'll just speak to it with sports. I know that it's bigger, but it guarantees an equal amount of sports per school. So, for example, if there's six boys sports teams, there has to be six girls sport teams. If there is a 7th sports team, it has to be coed. So, for example, a lot of I'm thinking about in my high school team, like, golf was coed, and then there was like, boys and girls tennis, football, field hockey. So that's the kind of counterpart. But there has to be an equal number.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Okay. And I think aren't there also, like, I think at colleges and stuff now, they have like, Title IX offices, title Nine coordinators. And I think that's also maybe where you go if you've experienced like a sexual assault or there's some concern about harassment or things like that.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right, yeah. So it prohibited sex based discrimination in any school or education program that receives any funding from the federal government. And it started in 1972.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Oh, I thought it was like, recent.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So they've made amendments to it, I'm sure, over and over since then. But that's when it started.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: So this initial school would have been in violation of Title Nine then. Okay, good to know. I thought maybe that came about after in the past 20 years, but I guess not.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: No.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Okay, good to know. But so they won't let her sort of try out or play. Her boyfriend is really icky and dismissive about her feelings, so she breaks up with him. Good. And then she has this idea that she's going to dress up like her brother and impersonate him at his school for two weeks so that she can make that male soccer team and kind of beat her boyfriend's team. Yeah, it's Cornwall and Illyria Illyria, which was a funny name, but I bet those stem back to the Shakespeare play, right?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That makes sense, I think.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: So that makes a lot more sense.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Because they're kind of OD.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: So basically, that's the premise of the movie. And we see Amanda Bynes portray stereotypical gender roles and mannerisms in a comedic way. And she's always been known for her comedic timing and the slapstick nature and the physical comedy. She's always been known for that. So you definitely see that here. But what were your thoughts, Portia, about the way she sort of portrayed masculinity versus femininity?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So I think she also let's first remind ourselves that this film was probably made in 2004, right? Came out in 2006. So some of the things that they were even just saying when she's in the shower room with Duke and she's just like, calling Brosif broski G money, a lot of those things are also just like from then. And people did say, you know, it's not that outrageous, but I thought she first of all, which we already said, she is just phenomenal at that kind of humor. And so I think ironically now, looking back, though, she in this role is bringing a lot of gender issues and questions up onto the surface in a really big way. Again, that we did not see.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah, and again, using humor, which we think of as a mature defense mechanism to explore really complex, difficult topics, much like we talked about with our Barbie episode, but in a different way. And I'm like, was that intentional or was that like, it just happened.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And they take it even further with you see her because they could have easily just thrown a wig and write the sideburns on and just had her wearing like a tightly fitted sports bra. But you see them like, they take the espinage and they're like binding, which is a pretty common practice if someone's trans and they are trying to have like a flat chest. You see her kind of packing like a filled sock to look like a ***** to use in her pants. And again, that's something that is used. So I thought even that could have easily been left out and I don't think anyone would have noticed.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right, I totally agree. And I thought before we continue, I did just want to give a couple of definitions for our listeners because I think as we start talking about gender dynamics, sexual dynamics, trans, cisgender, like, things like that, it can be really confusing. So, again, I want to just give a couple of standard definitions. So when we use the word sex, like in the medical field, the definition of sex is a biological category based on reproductive, anatomical and genetic characteristics, generally defined as male, female and intersex. So something I hear a lot in the popular press and media is like, you're born a boy or a girl that's it. And actually, that's just not true of the human species and a lot of other species if you look into different animals and things like that. So there are several medical conditions where a child isn't born at birth with what we consider male genitalia or female genitalia. Those things can include things like Kleinfelter syndrome, turner's syndrome, and androgen Insensitivity syndrome. And these are complicated things, and we won't get into all the details, but in those different know, the anatomical chromosomal or gonadal, sex varies in some way from what we would typically call male or female genitalia. So for people who are constantly shouting, like, you're either a boy or a girl, that's just not true. Like, there are humans again, it's rare, but there are humans born who, for example, like their internal organs don't match the external genitalia or vice versa. And so, again, usually at birth, parents are kind of advised, like, you can pick the gender. Now, it might change for some of these conditions. Other times, maybe the parents just maybe especially today, like, don't pick and sort of see what the child chooses. But that can change over the course of a child's life. And sometimes people with these conditions prefer to be called intersex. I think back in the day, we used to call people with these conditions hermaphrodites. And that, I think, can have a really negative connotation attached to it. But I think that is important to just point out that not everyone is just born a boy or a girl. So that is sex. That's medical based on these factors, gender is different from that, right? So when we say gender, that refers to socially constructed roles, behaviors, activities, and attributes that a given society associates with being a woman, man, girl, or boy, as well as relationships with each other as a social construct. Gender varies from society to society and can change over time. I think that's really important that we understand that that's what gender it is. I think we see Amanda bynes'character Viola sort of display that right? And so someone's gender identity is an individual sense of being a man, woman, boy, girl, genderqueer non binary, et cetera. And this doesn't have to be visible to other people. What you see from the outside is what we call gender expression. That's how someone chooses to convey their gender identity through their behavior, clothing, or other external characteristics. And not everyone feels safe to do that. And so I just thought it was important to sort of bring up those topics and give those legitimate definitions to help us as we conceptualize this movie and the effects it's had.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So if we also think about gender kind of being on a spectrum, I think we have either end where you are highly feminine appearing or highly masculine appearing, and then we see kind of people forever, right? Like, kind of being in the middle. Like, that would be a tom boy. So a girl who feels more masculine, maybe plays more with masculine toys. They might be more like, I'm just envisioning a little girl who has braids and overalls and is like playing in the dirt with a monster truck, like.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Roberta from now and then. I don't know if you saw that movie. Oh, my. Again, I'm it's so good.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Portia but I will also add that I think it's always been way more.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Acceptable to be a tomboy than a.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Girl to be more masculine presenting than for a boy to be more feminine presenting.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So, again, we just see there's this really long range of how you present yourself. And I think what's interesting that you just kind of spoke to, though, is it's different in culture to culture, right. So if I'm thinking of, like, we also covered the movie Barbie. If we think about that Barbie feminism, it's like I'm thinking of someone who might be all the way on one of the spectrum who's wearing, like, all pink, driving a pink car and is, like, in this pink role and likes everything that's feminine.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: But that's what that culture calls feminine.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Exactly. And another one might be entirely different of they're all the way at that end. Femininity right.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And again, their inner gender identity might not be the same as what they're expressing outside their gender expression. And I think that is where, as people grow up and you start to figure out who are you, really, things can change. And speaking to that in different cultures, again, how gender is such a social construct, I was really interested to learn recently about the concept of two spirit in the Indigenous culture. So Indigenous people I didn't know this before doing a little research before this episode, have kind of always had this concept of two spirit which they sort of define as a person who identifies as having both a masculine and a feminine spirit. And this term is used by some Indigenous people to describe their sexual, gender and or spiritual identity. I thought that was just really interesting. Like, other cultures sort of have lingo to talk about these difficult concepts. And I'm sure it varies from culture to culture, too. Right.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And even, I think as simply as like in, I don't know, I guess American culture, it's like there's some women we could think of it just as this, who don't ever want to wear a dress or a skirt, and they just feel more comfortable always wearing pants or shorts or something like that. And that's such not a big deal. But again, I'd say that is someone who's on a different place of the gender spectrum than someone else who does feel more comfortable or wants to do that because they think of it in a feminine way. So I just think it doesn't have to be that huge. Right. Which I think that's the big kind of conflicts going on. It's like we all land somewhere on it. And I think everyone would be surprised that they're probably not on the end.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right, exactly. Right. Yeah, exactly. And I think like you're saying, how you define masculinity or femininity is really determined by the culture you're growing up in and how you're reacting to that. Right? Yeah. And sometimes I like that example about the dresses or the pants. Just because you like to wear pants, that doesn't mean your gender identity is male. It could not always. Like a lot of women like wearing pants too. It's different. Again, exactly. I think the way you're expressing yourself is different from your gender identity for some people. So given that example, why don't we also define what transgender means? Because that is a term that we use a lot in our American society. It is hot in politics right now.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Also a lot with title nine, specifically in sports.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah. That has been everywhere these past few years. So the official definition of transgender is someone who identifies with the gender other than the one that was assigned to them at birth, period. Okay, guys, that's it. It has nothing to do with your genitalia. It has nothing to do with your anatomic, chromosomal, gonadal, sex organs. That is it. It means that the gender you identify with differs from the one you were assigned at birth. There is a lot of discussion, I think, about this term because in some ways it feels outdated or there's some criticisms about it because it sort of implies that there was a point at which someone was cisgendered, which means that your inner gender identity matches the gender you assumed at birth. The word trans in some ways, some people, some critics of that word will say like, implies that you were cisgendered than you became transgendered, I think, which can be really harmful. But it does give us a language to use. So often when someone identifies as a trans man, that would be someone who perhaps or who at birth was assigned a female gender or identified female gender and finds that they identify more with being a man, a trans woman would be the opposite. And a lot of people don't like those terms. And so they might use something more broad like gender non conforming or non binary.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So in the know, we're seeing viola by definition cross dressing. Right. So it's like she is putting on male clothes. She hasn't said anything that she's feeling like she is thinking of having an identity as a man or anything like that. So by a definition, using just like language, that's what she's doing. But in it, it expands this whole question of like well, and again, we're pretending to know her inner thoughts as viola. It's like, is she does she have some thoughts of maybe wanting to identify more with a male persona or does she feel more comfortable that way? Where does this go in the, like I think it's just really interesting because she can still know attracted to Duke, right. That has nothing to do with how you express your gender, but is know kind of throughout the end of the film exploring this, and does it feel good for her and is that something that then she might choose to do?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right? And I personally don't think so. I don't think Viola is trans. I think that she had a goal in mind. She wanted to play soccer, and that is why she's doing this. It didn't seem like she was having confusion or what we might call gender dysphoria, which is a lot of distress about the gender you feel like you have to express. I didn't get that from her. I got that she just wanted to play soccer, but the whole time felt female. I think you could see that, like when she would slip back into her girl voice or these girl mannerisms and things like that. But I do agree that this film does open that up and it does show someone in adolescence exploring their gender. Now, again, what we know about people who identify as trans or non binary is that this starts really early, just like someone else walking around who identifies as cisgender and they say, like, I've always known I was a girl. These people have always known that this is where they fall. And it's even normal in toddlerhood, right, for boys to wear dresses or girls to pretend to be boys. This is normal as you're trying to figure it out. But then, typically, people who identify as trans keep wanting to if you're born of boy gender, you might want to play with dolls, you might want to dress up. That starts really early and tomboys start.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: To not be enough. Right. This is why it's a spectrum experience. Exactly. So it's like you're kind of portraying a little bit more of a masculine expression and then that's not enough. Right. And you still are having kind of this gender dysphoria. You still feel distress, and then you kind of keep following along the spectrum until you land somewhere that feels good. Sometimes that is with surgery, and other times it's not.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right? And I think it's really important that we also talk about that. These are real things, right? And this type of dysphoria that stems from a mismatch between your inner gender identity and the outer gender expression you've sort of been raised to abide by or is socially acceptable, is really significant. And it's been around forever. Like, this is just a thing. This is real. This has happened. And what we know is that trans youth and trans adults have significantly higher rates of mental health conditions, substance abuse conditions, and suicide compared to people who identify as cisgender. And I think that's really important that we talk about that because studies have shown that 40% 40%, that's almost half of transgender adults have attempted suicide in their lifetime, not just thought about it, but tried it, and that 30% of transgender youth have attempted suicide in the past year, that's huge. Those rates are so significantly higher for any other mental health condition that I can think of. And add to that if these transgender youth, for example, also, I mean, being transgender, you already are facing a lot of stress from being a minority, like in that way. But if you add other intersectional identities to this in terms of race, socioeconomic status, religion, family structure, poverty, like things like that, your rates just go up and up and up and up. And what we have found is that by providing gender affirming care, which again is a spectrum, right, it runs all the way from gender affirming psychotherapy to explore your feelings, to hormonal treatment and puberty, which again can be reversed. There's this big fear like, oh no, we're going to do something that is permanent and we can never fix it. The hormonal therapies basically stop puberty from happening. And so it gives a child who's experiencing this the chance to sit with it and really figure it out. And there are so many guidelines that you have to wait a certain amount of time. Someone has to live in their well, I think that's actually for surgery, but there's a lot of guidelines before you just do that, before you stop puberty. But then if this person sort of changes their mind down the road, which is incredibly rare, but does happen, it is easy to reverse and then sort of start puberty in the gender you were assigned at birth anyway, all the way to gender confirming surgeries, which, again, a lot of rules around qualifying for surgeries like that, at least in our state. You have to live in your gender identity for at least a year. You have to express that outwardly. And then you also have to have psychiatric evaluations and be cleared from a psychiatric standpoint by more than one physician. There's a lot of hoops you have to jump through. And what are your thoughts about that, Portia? Do you think that's helpful or do you think that is kind of further stigmatizing or a barrier?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: I think it really depends on the like I think it can be, I think I guess I'd say as a whole, I don't know. I think it can go either way. I think there's positive experiences where it's just like it is catching people, making a secure choice in something that they've always known. But surgery has risks and I think it's just to really prepare you for that. I guess we're kind of going, I'm going to bring up something totally different. But it's like if an 18 year old female would want to have their tubes tied, right? It's like if a 30 year old is coming to you and want to have their tubes tied, sure be done. But it's like, okay, we need to give you information. Do you know, because I'm actually unsure of permanent for the most part.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I think there's some that you can.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Reverse, but yeah, some more permanent options. I think it's just important to educate, write the risks, if this is something that you really want to. So it's thoughtful and I think most of the time, again, it is like it's been years and decades of wanting or not feeling comfortable in the gender you were assigned at birth. So I guess, I don't know. I think in some cases it can be useful just to prepare yourself for a very significant surgery.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Just like any surgery, huge change.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Right. But I also do think there's absolutely aspects of it that can be super harmful. Like really navigating it with insurance, which I think if you are paying privately, I think it's a much quicker process. Right, so I think that's true. That's always just like something to throw in there, right?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: True, very true. And also, I think we know that people who identify as trans face so much stigma and violence. Like trans youth, trans adults are so much more likely to be victims of physical violence, assault, murder, things like that, than cisgender people.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Especially when they are presenting a gender and they're not passing. Right. That's the highest risk time for them. So you're asking them to stay in the year. Right.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: That's the part where I'm like, oh, on the one hand, I get it. It's like you want to make sure you're sure. On the other hand, it really increases I think I don't know this for sure. I don't have the data to back it up, but I worry that it increases their risk of harm coming to them. And there is something just so stigmatizing about the system being like, well, you.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Have to really make sure that you're sure before we help you and offer.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: You this care that's been shown to significantly decrease your risk of suicide. Again, I don't pretend to know all the answers or have a better system option in my mind, but I just think these are really complicated issues. And coming back to the movie, she's the man, we see her kind of dealing with that as she's trying to pass. Portia, can you define what passing means for our listeners?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Sure. So if somebody's passing, that means they appear, I'd say, I don't know, to 99% of people the gender that they're intending to pass as. So if somebody is making a transition from male to female, they look like a female. Like, you would never question it. And I also would just ask people to know that there's a lot of people that you don't know who are 100% passing and you're feeling safe with them. So it's like the people who are not passing yet who are coming in. And I'm thinking this is the big issue to a bathroom where you're still kind of looking like a guy, but you're dressed as. A female. That's where people get really scared and it feels but again, that's where the danger comes for them.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Not 100% you.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: That's just what the data says.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And again, the data says that people who identify as trans are not sexual deviants or aggressors or pedophiles or things like that. That's just not true. That's like an really unfortunate stigma and bias that just keeps getting perpetuated and.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: All the way know. I think we've seen we see this date back centuries is like people performing, right? Like drag queens are going to shows where people are cross dressing like Shakespeare around forever. The idea that it is this harmful, right? Sexual deviant going to corrupt children is.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Like this new thing ridiculous, right? And again, we see this in other animals too. I can't think of anything off the top of my head, but I do remember in college, in my animal behavior class with Professor Wasserman, learning about different species where the women would pretend to be men to protect their young and vice versa. So we see this in other species. We've seen this in humanity dating back centuries, like forever. This is just a thing.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yes. So you brought up you before, right? Or was that in another so so getting back to she's the man worth noting that we see Malcolm, who's just kind of like this annoying guy, right, who's trying to figure out what's happening with Viola and Sebastian, like expose her. He is stalking Olivia. Like, he has pillows with her face.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Creepy.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: He's always trying to talk to her. And I was just just just also keeping in mind, like, yeah, that seems silly in the movie, but it's not. Right. Stalking is the opposite of funny. It's the most terrifying experience. Per again, all the data to go through. So it's just like Malcolm is you're. Gross. Yeah, we don't like you.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: But a little bit of stalking we see in this movie and then we see right.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Olivia too.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So Olivia, initially we're introduced to her because Duke really likes her. And then she develops feelings for Sebastian. Sebastian played by Viola. Right. I thought that is so interesting for Olivia. Like, how does she feel knowing that she wanted to kiss and was really into a girl playing a guy, right. And then she ends up being with the real Sebastian.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: I know.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So I'm just curious about like that was just interesting.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And I think that brings up a great point, again, Portia, that there is a difference between your gender identity and your sexual identity. Right? So we've talked about gender identity. Your sexual identity is who you feel attracted to. And that is under the umbrella of things like heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, asexual and again, I was like, is this movie a little homophobic? Like Amanda or Viola when she's playing Sebastian, wouldn't kiss the girls and stuff. Maybe she doesn't want to. Right. But I also thought it sort of did play off of that like you're saying. And it was interesting that it seemed like Olivia was attracted to the feminine aspects of Viola playing Sebastian's character, right.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And not Duke, who presenting to outside people, is not that sensitive guy, but he is closed doors to other guys, right.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: So, again, it explores these themes of gender, sexuality, and just how you kind of express yourself and move through the world in a really interesting way. But again, if you are a trans person, that doesn't mean you are homosexual or bisexual. And so that is something important to keep in mind that you can be a trans man and still be attracted.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: To whoever you are attracted to.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: They're not like mutually exclusive, one doesn't lead to the other or anything like that.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And we see Amanda Bynes really come to life when she is at the carnival and performing the rapid gender changes, code switching in how she's talking and how she's walking. And it's just a being a good actor. And also I think it's part of the humor that they pulled from the play. Yes, the play. I think it's like carnivally. It's silly. It's again, it's supposed to give that gender ambiguity which I think is just interesting.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Right.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Shakespeare's from a long time ago.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And can you again define code switching for our listeners?

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So we also talk about code switching with people. Describe it as going to different groups of people. Right? So you might have a way that you speak at home and then when you're in a certain environment, like maybe work or like a classroom, you become kind of different. And you say words differently, you use different words, you carry yourself differently. I think I was more thinking of it or I've been aware of it more from black Americans kind of identifying their experience with being home and then being in a colleges are historically white places. So kind of having to adopt a white code when going to them to appear, right. Like the norm, which is like professional. You can be an educated black person in your home code, but in order to be perceived as educated in some of these other environments, you need to adopt the bigger code all the way.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: From what you wear to the way you do your hair to do you have tattoos or not, like all of those things.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: So we see in the movie where I don't want to say it necessarily gets wrong. I just think it's like the times and it's not them continuing to educate the masses, but right when they identify their gender by showing their body parts at the end. So it's like we see Sebastian pull his pants down. Which also that's I feel like we don't get arrested.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It's indecent exposure.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And everyone's like, oh. And then they're all kind of joking because seemingly he has a large *****. Right?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: It seems like.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And then we see Viola later on lift up her shirt to prove she's a girl.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: So, again, even in the movie, they're mixing know, anatomical sex parts and your gender. I also thought the principal just like, calling out this issue in front of everyone. Weird stopping the game. There's title nine violations all over the place here, and that's just like, not the way you do it.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: He's also just like a weirdo.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Remember when he's like, over identifying and assuming that Viola as Sebastian's experience is the same as his? Yeah, kind of crazy.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Did you recognize him?

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: No, I did.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: He's in a lot of things, actually, when I clicked on his name. But I think I recognized him from Men in Black. He's in the first movie, I believe. And I used to really like that movie and I watched it a lot.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: But I was like, how do I know this guy? Probably from then.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: So, yeah, in general, I thought I wasn't expecting all of this. Like, when you said we should cover this movie, I was, huh. Okay, amanda bynes cool. It's a throwback. All right. But it really did bring up a lot of big themes about gender identity, sexual identity, girl versus boy. Why do we divide sports all the time? Just like all of these sort of gender archetypes really brought it out. And again, thinking that this movie is 20 years old, it's really interesting, again, that so many of these themes are still something we're trying to sort through in our culture today.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: And really, I think it was just kind of dismissed probably as like a teen movie. But I think The Band of Buys, she was excellent in it, I think, based on the Shakespeare, twelveTH Night was excellent. I think I'm almost comparing it. And we're laughing because we also recorded Barbie on this day. And I think it's very similar to Barbie in some ways, right? Where I think, yes, of course the movie could have been better. It's also almost 20 years old. But I think that she didn't get the credit that she was owed for playing this role and for the writing. And again, I just think it's a really clever idea for a movie and people like me loved it.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: And you were saying there's been a lot of discussion about it, even in the present day, where they're really sort of analyzing the gender roles and the way she portrays it, the way she's code switching, people are still talking about it. And so I think that is what makes art beautiful, is that it can provoke these feelings. These thoughts give you a means to discuss these bigger issues, especially when you might not agree with the person you're talking about it with. But it's like a maybe safe, neutral place to talk about it. And we're still talking about this stuff. So it was interesting.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Yeah. So of know, I think it's worth saying we wish Amanda finds well. She's iconic and I selfishly would love to see her back in theater, but I don't know if that's good for her or know, who am I to say? But I love her. She was through my childhood and stay tuned. Maybe we'll do another one of her things, but thank you for listening today to our podcast. If you would like to follow us, you can follow us on Instagram at Analyze Scripts or TikTok at Analyze Scripts podcast threads at Analyze scripts podcast, and you can check us out on our website to get more information or continue to search through some of our older episodes. They're great.

Dr. Katrina Furey, MD: Yeah. All right, we'll see you next Monday.

Portia Pendleton, LCSW: Bye bye.

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