00:00:00
S1: The Federal Court has upheld the ruling that the exclusion of a transgender woman. This is an activist, somebody who said, I'm a bloke, but I'm identifying as a woman that is their personal business. And they made a big noise about it. And they were excluded from a female only app, which constituted gender identity discrimination. That's what the federal court says. Now, this man who identifies as a woman calls herself Roxanne Tickell, was awarded $10,000 in compensation plus court costs in a case against the giggle for girls app and its CEO, Sal Grover. Now, Sal is a woman and wanted to set up a safe space for women and girls, something that we blokes weren't meant to go to, but but tickle Roxanne Tickle accessed the platform in 2021, but the account was then later restricted following a review drew attention to themselves. But Justice Robert Bromwich, The previously found there was no indirect gender identity discrimination due to the condition of needing to appear to be a cisgender female, which disadvantaged transgender women. Yeah, if you're keeping up with it, you're better than me. Bottom line is, this was an activist taking on another activist. I guess Sal Grover wanted to make a safe space giggle for girls, so he ended up with a ridiculous court case, which was tickle versus giggle. An appeal of that ruling is now failed. Tickle has now been awarded. This is Roxann Tickle. Additional compensation. Melissa McIntosh is the shadow minister for women and joins me now. I mean Melissa McIntosh. This is madness, isn't it?
00:01:53
S2: It is. And I'm going to try and win back some votes for the Liberal Party here.
00:01:58
S1: Well you've got a lot to do. There's a lot of votes sitting out there. They want to vote for you. They just want to see real action. You know that.
00:02:03
S2: Reason. Yeah, I know that. I know that, uh, it it is. And this is, I think the women of Australia have really had enough on this issue. I opened my Facebook page about a day ago to say, give me your feedback, we need to change the laws. And I've got a thousand or so responses, um, already in a day. So it's, it's an important issue. The reason why we're stuck here is surprise, surprise, the Labor Party under Prime Minister Gillard changed the Sex Discrimination Act back in 2013 and removed the definition of of sex as men and women and gender identity, as we have seen with this court case now overruled. Being a man or a woman by biological means. So this is the playing out of of a consequence of a change to the act way back in 2013. And this is just, you know, court case one, we need to stop this before it is even more of a runaway train. And more women are at the at the other end of it.
00:03:13
S1: I mean, Melissa, I don't care if Roxanne Tickell is identified as a woman. That's not my business. Roxanne Tickell can do that. But the Giggle for girls founder Sal Grover had a responsibility to provide a safe space for women only, and felt concerned about it. That's why they banned him. That's what it sounded like to me.
00:03:33
S2: Yeah. And this can't be about, um, you know, discriminating against trans people. It's not about this. No. So this is one one of the consequences. Yes. So there's no longer because of this case, you can't guarantee safe spaces for women where have that safe space because now we've got precedents. There's abhorrent cases that we've seen where a man has committed a terrible crime. One of them was sexually assaulting his child. He went to jail and then transitioned to be a woman to get a lesser jail sentence. We've seen a murderer transition in jail. I had a 20 year sentence and then got sent to a women's prison and then re-offended some other crimes that were terrible. So that end of the scale, this is happening in in real life, and this is all the consequence of this change to the Sex Discrimination Act. And that's why the coalition's committed if in government. And this is a good reason to vote for your for your listeners, if in government, we will change the Sex Discrimination Act to return the definitions of sex. A man is a man and a woman is a woman.
00:04:44
S1: Well, I mean, that's step one. In the end, if Roxanne Tickle hadn't drawn attention to themselves over their original designation, that was transitioning to something else. In other words, if we didn't know, if we didn't, we weren't having a debate about what they claim to be. It wouldn't be an issue if they just simply said, I'm Roxanne Tickle. I'm living my life as a woman. Then Sal Grover wouldn't have been any the wiser. My understanding is they drew attention to this. Grover had no choice.
00:05:15
S2: Yeah, I. The details of how it all came about, I think, uh, I recall that the ticker was identified firstly as a man. So this is where the issue came about. But the problem is that now gender identity overrules biological sex.
00:05:37
S1: But the whole the whole thing was it was though, an activist taking on another activist, I mean, Sal Grover. Let's cut to the chase. He's an activist for women's rights and an activist for girls rights. He wanted to create a safe space. Roxanne Tickle became an activist for trans rights. And so the federal court has decided that man and woman doesn't matter. You can be whatever you like to be, whatever website you're on.
00:06:01
S2: Well that's correct. So you you effectively can't now have a website that is only for biological women based on this case. And they're very expensive, very lengthy cases. There's also the, um, it could go to the high court. It's, it's not out of the question, but these things cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, but we just need to stop it. I think it's time to to stop that and, um, you know, fix up the law, which is what we're committed to doing. But you've got to ask why the government's not committed to this. They're they boast that their side of politics is full of, of women. And they're doing so great and they're so focused on women, yet their mouths are zipped shut on this particular issue. The only commentary I've heard from that side was a spokesperson for the attorney general, who confused the whole issue and said that the coalition is going after migrants, which is nothing to do with this issue. So you think the government who who like to claim they stand up for women would actually do something about this legislation themselves, and we would support them in that.
00:07:06
S1: I saw some backbench member posting how this budget was great for women, and it's all about women. And so your point is a fair one. Melissa McIntosh. I mean, they will want to have their cake and eat it too. But this is the problem, this spin stuff. It's got to come down to the central argument. Surely that safe spaces for women, safe spaces for girls, against people who could make them feel threatened. I'm not suggesting in this case, this person threatening them, but in the. But some people could feel threatened by this. Unsure. It leaves. It leaves, I think, from a bloke's point of view, a sort of. What can we do to defend our women, if you get what I mean?
00:07:48
S2: Yeah, I understand that completely. And it's also playing out in our schools. So they've opened the girls toilets up to um, to trans, uh, children as well. So and the girls have no say in that and they may feel very uncomfortable, but that doesn't matter. They have to be able to, you know, let, let trans kids in. So it is playing out in all different sections of our society right now that women and girls no longer have safe spaces for, for the biological sex, that they are a woman. Um, so it needs to stop. It's, as I said, the worst, the worst cases are the men, um, committing terrible crimes and using this loophole to get lesser sentences or being moved into a women's prison. I think everyone would think that's abhorrent. But this is the outcome of the unintended consequences of this legislation.
00:08:46
S1: Yeah. Well, you just keep on about this because it's common sense. What you're talking and common sense is sadly lacking in this. Well, all of this came out of Gillard's famous misogyny speech. I tell you, madness. Insane. All before you were in the Parliament and after I left it. But either way, we've got to fix this. Melissa McIntosh, always good to talk to you. The shadow minister for for women. Biological women. But look again, if if Tickell had identified themselves as a woman, no one would have looked into it. No one's going around checking what's in people's underpants. Surely it's really your you can you can actually describe yourself however you like. Live your life. But when you start au insane stuff. 133882 the for ABC open line. Thanks to watch smoke alarm.
S1: The Federal Court has upheld the ruling that the exclusion of a transgender woman. This is an activist, somebody who said, I'm a bloke, but I'm identifying as a woman that is their personal business. And they made a big noise about it. And they were excluded from a female only app, which constituted gender identity discrimination. That's what the federal court says. Now, this man who identifies as a woman calls herself Roxanne Tickell, was awarded $10,000 in compensation plus court costs in a case against the giggle for girls app and its CEO, Sal Grover. Now, Sal is a woman and wanted to set up a safe space for women and girls, something that we blokes weren't meant to go to, but but tickle Roxanne Tickle accessed the platform in 2021, but the account was then later restricted following a review drew attention to themselves. But Justice Robert Bromwich, The previously found there was no indirect gender identity discrimination due to the condition of needing to appear to be a cisgender female, which disadvantaged transgender women. Yeah, if you're keeping up with it, you're better than me. Bottom line is, this was an activist taking on another activist. I guess Sal Grover wanted to make a safe space giggle for girls, so he ended up with a ridiculous court case, which was tickle versus giggle. An appeal of that ruling is now failed. Tickle has now been awarded. This is Roxann Tickle. Additional compensation. Melissa McIntosh is the shadow minister for women and joins me now. I mean Melissa McIntosh. This is madness, isn't it?
00:01:53
S2: It is. And I'm going to try and win back some votes for the Liberal Party here.
00:01:58
S1: Well you've got a lot to do. There's a lot of votes sitting out there. They want to vote for you. They just want to see real action. You know that.
00:02:03
S2: Reason. Yeah, I know that. I know that, uh, it it is. And this is, I think the women of Australia have really had enough on this issue. I opened my Facebook page about a day ago to say, give me your feedback, we need to change the laws. And I've got a thousand or so responses, um, already in a day. So it's, it's an important issue. The reason why we're stuck here is surprise, surprise, the Labor Party under Prime Minister Gillard changed the Sex Discrimination Act back in 2013 and removed the definition of of sex as men and women and gender identity, as we have seen with this court case now overruled. Being a man or a woman by biological means. So this is the playing out of of a consequence of a change to the act way back in 2013. And this is just, you know, court case one, we need to stop this before it is even more of a runaway train. And more women are at the at the other end of it.
00:03:13
S1: I mean, Melissa, I don't care if Roxanne Tickell is identified as a woman. That's not my business. Roxanne Tickell can do that. But the Giggle for girls founder Sal Grover had a responsibility to provide a safe space for women only, and felt concerned about it. That's why they banned him. That's what it sounded like to me.
00:03:33
S2: Yeah. And this can't be about, um, you know, discriminating against trans people. It's not about this. No. So this is one one of the consequences. Yes. So there's no longer because of this case, you can't guarantee safe spaces for women where have that safe space because now we've got precedents. There's abhorrent cases that we've seen where a man has committed a terrible crime. One of them was sexually assaulting his child. He went to jail and then transitioned to be a woman to get a lesser jail sentence. We've seen a murderer transition in jail. I had a 20 year sentence and then got sent to a women's prison and then re-offended some other crimes that were terrible. So that end of the scale, this is happening in in real life, and this is all the consequence of this change to the Sex Discrimination Act. And that's why the coalition's committed if in government. And this is a good reason to vote for your for your listeners, if in government, we will change the Sex Discrimination Act to return the definitions of sex. A man is a man and a woman is a woman.
00:04:44
S1: Well, I mean, that's step one. In the end, if Roxanne Tickle hadn't drawn attention to themselves over their original designation, that was transitioning to something else. In other words, if we didn't know, if we didn't, we weren't having a debate about what they claim to be. It wouldn't be an issue if they just simply said, I'm Roxanne Tickle. I'm living my life as a woman. Then Sal Grover wouldn't have been any the wiser. My understanding is they drew attention to this. Grover had no choice.
00:05:15
S2: Yeah, I. The details of how it all came about, I think, uh, I recall that the ticker was identified firstly as a man. So this is where the issue came about. But the problem is that now gender identity overrules biological sex.
00:05:37
S1: But the whole the whole thing was it was though, an activist taking on another activist, I mean, Sal Grover. Let's cut to the chase. He's an activist for women's rights and an activist for girls rights. He wanted to create a safe space. Roxanne Tickle became an activist for trans rights. And so the federal court has decided that man and woman doesn't matter. You can be whatever you like to be, whatever website you're on.
00:06:01
S2: Well that's correct. So you you effectively can't now have a website that is only for biological women based on this case. And they're very expensive, very lengthy cases. There's also the, um, it could go to the high court. It's, it's not out of the question, but these things cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, but we just need to stop it. I think it's time to to stop that and, um, you know, fix up the law, which is what we're committed to doing. But you've got to ask why the government's not committed to this. They're they boast that their side of politics is full of, of women. And they're doing so great and they're so focused on women, yet their mouths are zipped shut on this particular issue. The only commentary I've heard from that side was a spokesperson for the attorney general, who confused the whole issue and said that the coalition is going after migrants, which is nothing to do with this issue. So you think the government who who like to claim they stand up for women would actually do something about this legislation themselves, and we would support them in that.
00:07:06
S1: I saw some backbench member posting how this budget was great for women, and it's all about women. And so your point is a fair one. Melissa McIntosh. I mean, they will want to have their cake and eat it too. But this is the problem, this spin stuff. It's got to come down to the central argument. Surely that safe spaces for women, safe spaces for girls, against people who could make them feel threatened. I'm not suggesting in this case, this person threatening them, but in the. But some people could feel threatened by this. Unsure. It leaves. It leaves, I think, from a bloke's point of view, a sort of. What can we do to defend our women, if you get what I mean?
00:07:48
S2: Yeah, I understand that completely. And it's also playing out in our schools. So they've opened the girls toilets up to um, to trans, uh, children as well. So and the girls have no say in that and they may feel very uncomfortable, but that doesn't matter. They have to be able to, you know, let, let trans kids in. So it is playing out in all different sections of our society right now that women and girls no longer have safe spaces for, for the biological sex, that they are a woman. Um, so it needs to stop. It's, as I said, the worst, the worst cases are the men, um, committing terrible crimes and using this loophole to get lesser sentences or being moved into a women's prison. I think everyone would think that's abhorrent. But this is the outcome of the unintended consequences of this legislation.
00:08:46
S1: Yeah. Well, you just keep on about this because it's common sense. What you're talking and common sense is sadly lacking in this. Well, all of this came out of Gillard's famous misogyny speech. I tell you, madness. Insane. All before you were in the Parliament and after I left it. But either way, we've got to fix this. Melissa McIntosh, always good to talk to you. The shadow minister for for women. Biological women. But look again, if if Tickell had identified themselves as a woman, no one would have looked into it. No one's going around checking what's in people's underpants. Surely it's really your you can you can actually describe yourself however you like. Live your life. But when you start au insane stuff. 133882 the for ABC open line. Thanks to watch smoke alarm.
