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Rachel Morris (00:01.66)
Hello and welcome to Work Truths Off the Record, the podcast that opens honest conversations about what it means to be human at work. I'm Rachel Morris, a coach and your guide as we uncover the stories, struggles and triumphs behind the professional mask. In this series, we're focusing on the imposter phenomenon. If you've ever doubted your own success or felt you're just one step away from being found out, then this series is for you.
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Expect fresh insights, honest personal stories, and tools from leading experts to help you feel more grounded, confident, and connected in your working life. And today, I'm delighted to be joined by two of my very own colleagues from the Motion Learning Coaching Team, Rakhi Patel and Helen Brooks. And in this conversation, the three of us will look back on the series, sharing key themes and our perspective
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on how we as coaches support clients experiencing thoughts and feelings of being an imposter. So ladies, welcome. It's really, really lovely to have you here with me today.
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Rakhee (01:10.424)
Thank you, thanks for having us.
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Helen Brooks (01:12.425)
Thanks, Lighthood.
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Rachel Morris (01:14.01)
Now, I know both of you have listened to each of the episodes in this series, so I'd like to start by asking you for some opening reflections on things that really, really stood out for you. Rakhi, why don't we begin with you?
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Rakhee (01:29.174)
Lovely, thank you. Firstly, I loved it. I really enjoyed listening to all the different perspectives, people from different walks of life talking about this. And just from a personal perspective, as someone who absolutely experiences imposter feelings, it's just that reassurance that you get from that, don't you? That this is what people go through. So that was really wonderful. I think what really stood out for me across the series was
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how often the evidence can be there and yet the person can't quite take it in.
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And so the importance, especially as coaches of helping people to build internal validation, it matters so much when you're trying to help clients navigate or work with and reduce imposter feelings. People can have positive feedback and impressive and strong track record, know, sponsors that back them. And yet they still maybe don't quite believe that they deserve to be where they are. I thought Dr. Terry Simkin, I thought she captured that really well when she said that the praise can be
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there but then the person physically pushes it away and I see that a lot in coaching you know a client might say you might spot them saying things like you know I know people say I'm doing well but I don't feel it or they explain the evidence away you know I got lucky or it was the team that did that that wasn't me or anyone could have done that and so in coaching what I'd really want to do when I experience that is first acknowledge that with them you know that feeling because it's really real for them but also find ways to help them look at
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that evidence in a way that they can actually take in. Sometimes that
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Rakhee (03:12.365)
might be helping them gather that evidence. think Kate Atkin talked about it as a smile file. I talk about it as proud stories, know, bring some moments with you to the session that you're proud of. They don't have to be big, but you know, let's remind you about moments where you've handled something well, you've made a difference, you've stayed true to yourself, or maybe we look together at a recent situation and help them look at it more carefully. What did you actually do? What did you contribute? What does that tell you about your capability?
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And I think the other thing that can help with building internal validation or viewing evidence in a way that you can take it in is language. So even, and a few of your guests talked about this, even just offering the language of, I'm experiencing imposter feelings, is very different from saying, I'm an imposter. And when you offer that distance from the imposter voice, the client can then start asking, okay, what else might be true about me? What else can I take in? So yeah.
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I think that's really stood out for me. It was a really strong reminder about the importance of that.
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Rachel Morris (04:15.525)
Yeah. And, and Raki, thank you for sharing that. I was struck too by people saying actually, because there were a number of guests that said, and if somebody says, don't be so silly, you're great. Actually, that makes it worse. That can have the counter, the opposite effects of what is intended. And I was having a coffee with a personal friend of mine who had listened to a few of the episodes and said, my gosh, I say that to my team all the time. And I hadn't realized that it could be having.
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Rakhee (04:29.751)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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Rakhee (04:41.389)
It's so well-meaning and well-intended, isn't it?
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Rachel Morris (04:45.239)
It's interesting. Thank you. Helen, what are your thoughts when you look back over the series?
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Helen Brooks (04:52.179)
As with Raki, I loved hearing the different perspectives from such a range of backgrounds, industries, levels of experience, et cetera. And I love the internal validation piece because you see it so often, you see these amazing people who have such fantastic experience and yet they still have those imposter thoughts. And I think that links to a theme that really stood out for me, which was around the importance of support. And it's support on two levels, really.
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One is about getting support for your specific thoughts. So you don't have the sense that you're you're holding it all in and it's kind of eating you up in this sort of horrible, you know, downward spiral. But it's also the second is about support in sharing experiences. So there's a collective realisation that you aren't alone in your thoughts.
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I've run group sessions with some really senior leaders where they've shared their imposter thoughts. And every time there's this sort of collective sense of relief, you know, that comes into the room around it's not just me. People are almost shocked. I've had people turn around and she goes, you get those thoughts. How? Because you're amazing. And and that's one of those things that I think then can be such a powerful tool in helping people to normalise and understand their thoughts.
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Denise McMurray, I think, said in in in her session with you, I think it's about recognising that they're feeling it and understanding that they're feeling it and talking about it. And that is very much an approach I take in working with my clients. It's about creating that space for people to be heard, not negating or dismissing the thoughts, which is what we just touched on. Around it can be a temptation to go, but everyone has it, just get on with it. And that completely
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misrepresents everyone's unique experience because we all feel it to different depths and different frequencies and it manifests and impacts differently for everyone. So actually just kind of opening up the conversation for people to be heard is I think such an important first step and that's what we do in coaching. You know, we we we we give people the the the choice to share as much as they want to share and then
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Helen Brooks (07:12.697)
Only then do we start to look at how we take it forward and managing it. And I think where support really comes in is people often don't realise they have choice in this. It's where that's that classic imposter syndrome, syndrome is a medicalized term. You're not ill if you have these thoughts. So actually, if we can make people realize they do have choice, they have agency, and then they can start to look at how they address it. And that's all in that banner of support for me, because it's really hard to do that.
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If you're living it on your own world in your own head.
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Rachel Morris (07:44.722)
Absolutely. Do know, I'm picking up on something you've just said there, Helen. I know for me personally, one of the strongest kind of recurring patterns that I noticed was that the imposter phenomenon is anything but a personal defect. There's not something wrong with a person. Hence it's not a syndrome, not something that a person has or is. I have imposter syndrome. No, no, no. Instead it's much more context sensitive, impacted by
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past and present systems, kind of all within which this person operates exists and hopefully feels like they belong. And I think this sense of that shared collective sigh you describe when you're exploring it with executive teams, it's not just me, you know, it's like, okay, so it's okay. It's okay to have this, be this, feel this, think this here. Can we move on actually to think about belonging because many...
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guests described imposter feelings as being tied to belonging, tied to legitimacy. So I suppose a more central sense of do I deserve to be here more than am I capable? So how does this show up in your coaching practice and what do you do when it does? Helen, let me start with you if I may.
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Helen Brooks (09:00.691)
Thanks, Rachel. It's such an interesting one because I think for me, do I deserve to be here and am I capable? It's both. Both of those sense sentiments manifest themselves for different people to a greater or lesser extent. Because often imposter thoughts are about undervaluing our own capability and contribution and overvaluing that of others. So that you have this disequilibrium that comes into place. So that
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Am I capable piece is about am I up to the job? But the do I deserve to be here? Well, if you're putting everyone else on a pedestal, you really feel like, you know, you don't deserve to be there. One of my recent coaches is an absolute high flyer and ticked all the same boxes as her colleagues in terms of qualifications, experience, capability, etc. She was getting higher rating, the the top level rating of a you know a large organisation. So she was doing really well.
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But she felt that they were better than her. And then she was withdrawing and not pushing herself forward. It's that classic barrier to inner progression. And so we really tried to work through challenging those unhelpful thought processes to get her into more of a constructive mindset, bringing that choice element to the fore. Now that isn't to say that all triggers of imposter thoughts are internal.
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and and that looked at the role of organisational culture and it found that you know competitive, unsupportive cultures are a really significant, you know, trigger and you know exacerbate those imposter thoughts. So there is something here about organizations helping in addition to offering coaching to you know help people work through their own experience, through training, raising awareness on the topic, but also creating psychologically safe environments where people can
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feel that they can be vulnerable and they see vulnerability in the leaders at the top. And we often coach leaders as as you know. So so in many ways, not only are we help helping the client when we're working on this topic, but we're also unlocking things to enable them to support their teams and create better widening work wider working environments, which I think can be a really nice thing about fostering a a wider but sense of belonging in organisations than just working with that one individual.
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Rachel Morris (11:28.657)
Helen, thank you. I know with many of my own clients as a practitioner myself, know, that challenging assumptions, challenging beliefs, stories that people have told themselves for long, long periods of time, which may have been there for a reason historically, but might be hindering a person here and now, is quite a critical part of a coach's work, isn't it? know, not is it true or is it false, but is it helpful for you or not to hold that belief at this particular moment in time? And working on
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reframing beliefs with clients to enable them to say, and what could be an alternative way of looking at that which might be better for you right now. Interesting. Raki, let me come to you.
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Rakhee (12:10.616)
Thank you. Yeah, I absolutely endorse what Helen said and what you've just said as well. And building on that, I think another way that I see this question about belonging and this theme of belonging show up here is when I notice or hear clients trying to work out how much of themselves they feel able to bring in the room. And I think this is where representation or a sense of is there...
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representation I can connect with plays a part here. So a client might say, or I might hear them say things like, you know, I'm not sure I'm the kind of person they had in mind. You know, very recently someone comes to mind.
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who'd said something along the lines of, know, I'm not sure I fit the picture of who seems to be successful around here. And that's that piece around, you know, representation. If you don't feel like you maybe see others like you progressing, being heard, being backed, then there is the chance that that imposter feeling can become much more convincing. You know, can the volume can go up a little and
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How that might then show up from a client perspective or behavior perspective is self-editing, know, holding back, trying to work out which parts of themselves feel safe to bring into the space, into the room, into the role. I think it was...
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Katie Ford, and she spoke about this brilliantly, she described imposter feelings as forgetting who you really are and thinking you have to be someone else to be safe and accepted. Yeah, really have really really stuck with me. And I think that's why in coaching, of the most, one of the other useful things that we can do in here in this work is help people kind of building what Helen said, you know, it's separating belonging from sameness. You can have a valued place without having to become a copy.
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Rakhee (14:07.036)
of the people that are already there. So one way that I do that is by helping clients, you know, look at where their way, their own way already works. What was it that's been appreciated or recognized that meant that this is the opportunity that you are now in? Where is it that they're already having impact? What strengths and qualities they want to keep and why they want to keep them? And what is it that they don't want to actually give up or lose just to fit in? So inviting them to put that
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you know, in front of mind, bring that into the space. I do though, and this does absolutely build on what Helen was saying from an organisational perspective, is as coaches...
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help and support where our clients do need to pay attention when the signals that they're picking up are real. You know, if people actually around me, the ones that seem to succeed, they all look and sound or behave in similar ways, then that is going to affect, you know, whether someone feels that they can belong. So I think part of our coaching work can be helping the person separate what can they do something with, and then what is it that might be about the environment that they're in? So, you know, where might they need to get support?
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might they be, you know, what strategies might they use to overcome or do something about what they are actually really experiencing that might be going in their way.
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Rachel Morris (15:25.553)
You bring to mind a client of my own, Reki, from six or seven months ago. And actually what was interesting was they were recruiting in type. So type in terms of things like personality and preference and approaches to things. And astonishingly so that actually all of their data suggested that almost without exception, every single person in their leadership team was a kind of carbon copy of them.
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You know, and that when they saw it in the data terms was really quite shocking. But it opened up that conversation about difference and it opened up that conversation about if a person thinks up and you think down or left and you think right, what is the value in that? So I think as coaches, we can do work in that space as well, can't we? Which is we can help people really explore difference and explore.
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diversity in many, many different ways and what they're scared of about that or what they're excited at, what opportunities that brings. And certainly for my client then that was happening very, very subconsciously. They weren't aware that that was doing it until in the coaching room we were able to bring it into their awareness.
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Rakhee (16:31.382)
Yeah, and I love what Helen said because we do get, we have the...
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pleasure and the privilege of working often with senior leaders, people that they, you you can invite them to go, okay, and what part might you be playing yourself as a leader to create a culture and an organization that values difference, that encourages difference, that, you know, so I think that opportunity to impact this in both ways, both as the person that might be experiencing something, but as a leader who can shape something, I think is, yeah, well, I always feel very fortunate.
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that that's the space we get to operate in.
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Rachel Morris (17:06.961)
So I'd like to introduce change, periods of change, because one of the themes that came out throughout the numerous conversations that we've had in this series was that imposter feelings and thoughts can appear to intensify during moments of transition. So whether that's a period of promotion or whether that's somebody stepping into a different or a bigger role, changing sex, people returning, for example, from things like parental leave.
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You know, so returning from a break, people returning from sabbatical, I've got a client of my own came back from sabbatical recently, I was like, what's gonna be going on now? Am I still able to do this? And as coaches, we frequently work with people in these moments. Often it will be the reason that we are called in to work with people. But certainly because of the periods of time that we often see our clients, there will undoubtedly be changes that they're experiencing. So let's share thoughts with our listeners on how we.
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coaches help clients navigate complex thoughts and feelings, particularly during times of transition. Rakhi, for this one, just to shake it up a little bit, why don't you start us off?
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Rakhee (18:14.838)
Sure, I think...
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One of the first things that we can do, and we said this earlier as well, we can help the client notice and acknowledge what they're feeling and normalise why it's showing up. you know, I can recall many a time, and this is personally as well, when you're trying to dismiss these things or you're trying to dismiss these thoughts. And I think creating that space that we've already talked about, saying what it is that you are feeling, naming that, I think, can be the first step. Let's acknowledge it, let's normalise
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this before we can then move into helping them make sense of what stories are you maybe telling yourself about this transition that may not be helpful and that you might be moving to believing immediately. Let's try and create some distance between that. Cause you, as you've said in transitions, I think that's, there is that opportunity for an imposter voice feeling story to get louder. People often feel pressure to prove very quickly. I have the benefit of working with a lot of
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senior women and you know, I noticed that come up a lot, know, this desire to want to prove themselves very quickly. And it might sound like from clients, you know, I should know how to do this by now, or I really need to get on top of all of this before anyone notices I can't afford to get this wrong. And I've been here for two weeks. And that's often where when given a bit of time to reflect and say, so what does this mean from a behavior perspective, people can start to notice that, actually, I'm working very hard. I'm working harder and harder to
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Helen Brooks (19:36.217)
Yeah.
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Rakhee (19:46.977)
to feel safe. And that might look like over preparation, over delivery, second guessing themselves. They might notice that they're holding back on something until it feels perfect, you know, really in a polished place. And the challenge that I think we're there to help our clients with is that those things can feel very protective in the moment, but they can also make the transition feel very heavy or even heavier too. part of what I do is help them notice, you know, where is it that they might be
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to prove themselves rather than maybe find a way to learn.
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their way through the transition. We might look at, you know, recent events or recent situation and just gently challenge and nudge and say, where are they trying to be perfect before they act? Where are they waiting until something feels too complete? Where might there be opportunity and it might be beneficial to ask or to test something out or to learn something from this? And once they can start to notice that pattern, we can start to shift the question. So instead of how do I make sure I don't get this wrong, we can maybe focus
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on what would help me learn what's needed here. You know, I might be asking them what is it that's genuinely needed from you in this moment or in this next role or in this next opportunity and what strengths are you bringing to this that you already have? Where have those strengths really supported you before? But also inviting them to go and what would good enough look like at this stage? So inviting them to kind of have that.
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encouragement to go, doesn't have to be this. Actually the benefit of good enough could be this. I loved also, and I think this could really help here is, you know, when Lucy Ryan reframes imposter feelings as a moment of growth, I think that could be really useful reframe. If a client, you know, they're going through a transition, they're recognizing these feelings, feelings that come with moving to something new, something stretching, helping, like Lucy suggests, the client to see that discomfort.
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Rakhee (21:43.681)
but it's not proof that they shouldn't be there. It's a sign that they are stretching themselves, that they are pushing themselves. And what's the benefit of that? Inviting them to connect with that and encouraging them to find practical ways. So whether that's asking for feedback earlier, is it, where might they feel stretched, but not too stretched to share something before it's fully formed, testing some small moves that really just take that learning, it comes from a place of learning rather than
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Helen Brooks (22:03.034)
Yeah.
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Rakhee (22:13.594)
improving, I think that's what we can help clients do here.
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Rachel Morris (22:16.657)
That's beautiful, learning rather than proving. And actually there is a patience that we can have with other people and try to have with ourselves when we are learning, isn't there? Which we don't have quite so much when we are proving. Rakhi, thank you. Helen, I can sense that you're going to build on this.
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Rakhee (22:30.369)
Absolutely.
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Helen Brooks (22:36.561)
I was just no you know, I was nodding my head so much when Raki was talking there, you know, that that sense of people needing to prove themselves yesterday, the importance of being perfect, such unrealistic, harsh expectations on ourselves. That's something that really shows up in in the coaching room. going through times of change, you know, even really positive the key thing is it can be the really positive things as well, such as promotion and going into our dream jobs, you know, those are key times when imposter thoughts can get triggered.
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And I suppose that makes sense because we are moving from an area where we've been an expert and that we know really well to something that's newer, that really maybe matters to us more and is less familiar. So say for example in a in a legal or consulting environment where we've moved from being the delivery experts to having to move more into the sort of sales and business development side of things or leading a bigger team with much more visibility. you know, Katie Ford, I think she said, you know, my gosh, you're not Katie the clever one anymore.
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you know, yes, because your area of expertise is no longer the thing that you're going to be known for so much. And that can be very discombobulating, which is one of my favorite words. and so, you know, humans have this sort of innate negativity bias. You know, we focus on the negative and what's missing and what we don't have. And that becomes you know, that that that makes sense from a survival perspective. We need to watch out for the hazards more. But that can be a real overcompensation. And when we apply that to thinking of a period of transition,
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We can be really focusing on what we don't know and what we don't bring and what the person before us did. And that that I think links back to Raki's earlier point about authenticity. You know, how do I, you know, I I can't do it the way that person does it or did it. And so that can also be super challenging. And so in very similar reach up to what Raki said, you know, the first step,
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you know, I find with my clients is to really kind of help them identify, appreciate, and build on the strengths, recognizing that they will do the role in their own way. And so it's important to think and understand that so they can consciously engage. Often you ask people what their strengths are and they will freeze. They can tell you, you ask them what they're not good at and they can give you a list in 30 seconds. You know, they go straight at the top of the mind. But what the strengths are people like you can see people visibly cringe.
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Helen Brooks (24:59.121)
And so that's what we really need to do is help people to really value what they do bring. Then, Rachel, you mentioned earlier about the importance of reframing. What could be a different lens on this? That's also that positive reframe is such an important thing. But also saying you don't have to believe this other view right now, but just acknowledge that there is another perspective. And that in itself is a really important first step to activate other neural pathways.
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Because if our default pathway is it's my fault, I'm not good enough, I I'm gonna get found out, then that's a really easy one. We just want to start to think about the other neural pathway. and then, you know, I'm I'm building on everything that you guys were saying was just coming at me then is that we then work on growth I work with a mom positive reframe and growth mindset, you know. Raki, you quoted Lucy Wine about that moment of growth. Absolutely. It's where we have a growth mindset in a learning.
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Rachel Morris (25:42.331)
sports to come together.
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Helen Brooks (25:56.266)
Context. So it's a learning mindset so that people can be kinder to themselves on this learning journey and see it as something that's exciting, rather than trying to avoid that perfectionist chat trap, which is linked to such a fixed mindset thing as I should be perfect or I don't deserve to be here. And it's really showing, and particularly, we work with so many quite high anxious overachievers who are so hard on themselves. That's you know, I'm guilty of the same, you know. So it it's
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how we really help them to unlock that. So it's through that strength development, positive reframing, growth mindset.
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Rachel Morris (26:33.489)
Thank you, Helen, very much. When I stop recording this, I'm going to ask you to spell discombobulated for me, just as a final little... So start getting your thoughts together about that one. Now, let's think again, as coaches, often people come to us with quite kind of practical or immediate dilemmas that they're looking to work through. What are you bringing to our conversation today? What would you like to get out of our time together?
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Helen Brooks (26:40.146)
Yeah.
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Helen Brooks (26:44.617)
Like a spelling bee.
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Rakhee (26:48.418)
Thank
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Rachel Morris (27:02.169)
So, I don't know, it might be a presentation, I need to have a conversation about my promotion, or I'm going into a really difficult meeting and I'm really quite concerned about it, I don't feel very confident about it. What are the practical approaches that you would use with a client to help them manage their feelings or thoughts of being an imposter in those very practical situations, ladies? What do you do? Why don't I start with Helen? Let's come to you this time.
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Helen Brooks (27:30.707)
So it it might sound a bit left-field, but the first thing I work on with people, if they're coming and their their head is just whirring and they're in a high kind of stress situation, we've just got to do a physiological reset. And that for me is the most important thing to focus on because our thoughts and our bodies, you know, Richard, we've talked about this for you now, are we they're so interconnected. And we spend so much time thinking about
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what's going on in our heads that we forget that connection. And when we are hyper-stressed and hyper-vigilant to threats, our bodies are flooded with cortisol and adrenaline, our shoulders tense, our breathing shallows, and it's harder to think clearly. It is very hard to take someone from a real positive negative, high arousal and panic to a positive mindset without doing a physiological bridge and reset.
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I teach clients a really simple breathing technique, which is basically just a two-stage breath. So it's a normal breath in and pop often the hand on the belly works really well. So normal breath in, and then before you breathe out, it's a second stage to really fill up and then a normal breath out. So normal breath in, fill up, normal breath out. And literally three rounds of that flood the body with oxygen.
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It reduces the adrenaline in the cortisol and helps you to kind of think, okay, I'm not actually about to die here. So then we can move on. And it's such an important physiological reset. Whatever breathing technique people use, it works, and that's great. The only thing to watch with box breathing, holding your breath when you're under stress exacerbates the stress. So just but but it's just you get that physiological reset and then.
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People are eng able to engage rationally. It's a fault to say people go from absolute panic to we're okay, actually. It just doesn't work. So that's my first step. And then I start the dissociation of the thought, which Raki mentioned earlier, actually, around you know, I am having a thought that I'm not up to the job or I'm not going to do it, as opposed to I cannot do the job. And then you go one further step away, which
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Helen Brooks (29:44.978)
I'm having an imposter thought. I'm observing that I'm having a thought that I'm not up to the job. Because the further you can dissociate the thought, the more easy it is to bring in that reframe and take the strength out of the thought as well. And that's something that people do find really, really helpful. And it's not it seems obvious, but I mean it's easy in anxiety management as well. It's just distance the thought from the from you being in it. So those are my two things really.
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Rachel Morris (30:12.113)
So moving from I am as opposed to I notice I am thinking or feeling or experiencing. Thank you, Helen. I often, I agree about very frequently clients will ask for or if you offer be up for a moment of stilling when they first come into the coaching room, very, very frequently. And I, as well as breathing techniques, often use sensory things. So, you know,
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Helen Brooks (30:18.535)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Rachel Morris (30:41.541)
touch and sight and where are these distant sounds that you can hear. Again with that focus on really really bringing people just back to the present to the here and now where there's safety and from there we can free things up to do the work. Thank you, thank you. Rakhi.
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Rakhee (30:59.958)
So firstly, absolutely agree with what you've both said. That would be my starting point too. I always think of it as body and breath. What can we do with our body? What can we do with our breath that can help us steady, that can help us regulate, that can help us shift us to a place where, you know, as Helen described, we can then activate the part of our brain which helps us do some thinking and some noticing around what's going on. Once then a client is feeling steadier, a bit more regulated. One of things I,
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offer is a way to help them separate the feeling from the task. So if they've arrived thinking about a specific thing that they're noticing they're having a positive feelings about, feeling worried about, we know that those feelings can quickly and more likely because of our bias towards the negative view, pull us into an imagined disaster. What's going to go wrong? How am I going to be judged? What will people think? And so what we can offer is back to that space to slow that down,
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to invite them to notice and name what is it that they're feeling, name that, share that. What story or thoughts are they noticing that their mind is offering up? And then inviting them to be able to go, and what do we know that's actually true? You know, what exists in terms of the evidence that suggests, actually this is something that I can do, or here's some stuff that I can bring to this. And once we're able to do that, we can help the client see that there are two things going on.
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the feeling and then there's the actual task that's in front of them. So the feeling might be I'm going to get found out. The task might be...
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I need to open the meeting clearly and just offering them that slowing down and that being able to just, you know, those first few moments, simplify them, name them. that distinction can often be really helpful, to a client because it gives them something much, much more practical to work with. When we know what that task is and we're in a steadier place, we can get clearer about, okay, what would help me here? What does this moment need from you? What are two or three things that I need to land or prepare that are going to help me open?
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Rakhee (33:05.328)
that meeting clearly or help me share my recommendation here. There's another opportunity again to shift the focus. Again, I guess this is a reframe through questioning, right? Notice the questions that they seem to be asking themselves. So if they look more in the flavor of how am going to come across and, you know, I'm worried that they're going to think of this about me, we can help them shift that to what are you here to help them with? What is it that only you can bring or that you can do in this opportunity or in this meeting?
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So a question I might often use before someone's got a meeting or a presentation is what's the one thing you want your audience to leave with? It's simple, but it's inviting them to move that focus away from the worry of judgment to go and what is it that I'm here to do that I want them to achieve out of this? You know, what I'm here to do to be useful. And then the other thing is, or two other things, one is for some people a small anchor statement can help, you know, something that feels true, action-orientated. And again, we can only offer ourselves this.
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when we are steadier. So what is it I might say to myself? It doesn't have to be a big affirmation or a confidence statement. It could be something really usable like being clear and useful, slow down and land the point, pause, breathe, answer the question, whatever is fit for purpose. So we might spend time co-creating that together.
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The final thing and what's key with all of this, not only what things I've shared, but what Helen has shared and what you've shared is practicing outside of the moment. So practice those breathing techniques, practice that body posture that you know gives you a bit of a boost. Practice those things that you, those statements that you might say, do all of it when you don't need it so that it's readily available when you need it.
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Rachel Morris (34:49.445)
Maraki, thank you. There are some brilliant tips and ideas in there. And I particularly love that idea about separating out the feeling from the task. There's something very, very powerful in that, how I'm feeling about it, but what I am here to do. I think that's quite powerful. I'm struck in this conversation, but also across the series about how holding a stance of, I suppose what I would term compassionate realism is really, really significant where...
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we as coaches, but for anyone listening as friends, as partners, as colleagues, as line managers, we can really help validate, experience, test assumptions, help provide and people find evidence where it can be found, but particularly to help an individual feel safe and supported as that process is happening. So, our job is to see and to hear a person in the moment, isn't it? And it feels like that's very powerful from hearing what you've talked about today.
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Ladies, thank you so much. And Rakhi and Helen, as this episode draws to a close, I'm gonna do what I always do. And I like to leave our listeners with a final thought from our guests. Helen, let's start with you. What's the one thing that you would say to someone experiencing feelings or thoughts of being an imposter at this moment in time? What would you say directly to them?
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Helen Brooks (36:09.745)
Narrowing it down to one thing is really hard, but I'm gonna go really simply and just go there's just the word choice. you have a choice in whether to live with these thoughts or not and what you do about it. So I've learned personally to manage imposter thoughts. I know many of my clients have too. You don't have to live with it. The progress won't be linear, you know, you're looking at an upward trend to manage the thoughts, but the data points will bounce around.
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And don't give up if it's a bad day. or worse still, use it as an example of another thing that you're not good enough at. we have the choice and I like this mental image of the choir, and our imposter thoughts are only one voice in that choir, and we are the choir master, so we can choose to hear from a different voice, and it all comes down to choice.
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Rachel Morris (37:03.825)
love that Helen. Thank you very much indeed. Rekki, what's the one thing you'd say to somebody?
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Rakhee (37:09.708)
I think find your way to pause. Find your way to pause so that you can notice it and name it. You know, whether that's a deep breath that you take so that you can then say, I'm noticing, I'm experiencing imposter feelings and create that space between you and the thought that you're having.
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And then that gives you the opportunity to check it against reality and do that again in a way that you feel comfortable about. It could be talking to someone you trust. It could be writing down what you're afraid is true or asking yourself, actually, what evidence do I have that I can handle this? But I think that first bit, you know, find your way to pause to be able to notice it and to name it so you can create some space.
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Rachel Morris (37:58.61)
Thank you. And I was thinking as we're at the final episode what my response to my own question is. And it's one if anyone listening knows me or has worked with me will have heard me say before, but it is very much, let's just take it one step at a time and with kindness to yourself as we do. Which I think probably mirrors the things that you ladies are saying here as well. Helen, Raki, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me today. Your insight has been.
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powerful and I'm sure our listeners will be keen to reflect on the ideas you shared. So on behalf of all of us, thank you.
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Helen Brooks (38:33.725)
Thank you, Rachel. Great to be here.
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Rakhee (38:33.966)
Thank you so much. Yeah, thanks for having us.
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Rachel Morris (38:37.071)
And remember, if you'd like to learn more about the work we do at Motion Learning, more about Racky and Helen, you can find links and additional details in the show notes. So that brings us to the end of series two of Work Truths, Off the Record. If you've enjoyed it, please subscribe wherever you listen, importantly, so you don't miss out on the updates about series three.
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And as always, if you've got a moment, a quick review would really help us to continue to reach more people who might benefit from listening. So until next time, this is me, Rachel Morris, a coach and your host signing off. And together, let's keep the truth off mute.
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Rachel Morris (00:01.66)
Hello and welcome to Work Truths Off the Record, the podcast that opens honest conversations about what it means to be human at work. I'm Rachel Morris, a coach and your guide as we uncover the stories, struggles and triumphs behind the professional mask. In this series, we're focusing on the imposter phenomenon. If you've ever doubted your own success or felt you're just one step away from being found out, then this series is for you.
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Expect fresh insights, honest personal stories, and tools from leading experts to help you feel more grounded, confident, and connected in your working life. And today, I'm delighted to be joined by two of my very own colleagues from the Motion Learning Coaching Team, Rakhi Patel and Helen Brooks. And in this conversation, the three of us will look back on the series, sharing key themes and our perspective
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on how we as coaches support clients experiencing thoughts and feelings of being an imposter. So ladies, welcome. It's really, really lovely to have you here with me today.
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Rakhee (01:10.424)
Thank you, thanks for having us.
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Helen Brooks (01:12.425)
Thanks, Lighthood.
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Rachel Morris (01:14.01)
Now, I know both of you have listened to each of the episodes in this series, so I'd like to start by asking you for some opening reflections on things that really, really stood out for you. Rakhi, why don't we begin with you?
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Rakhee (01:29.174)
Lovely, thank you. Firstly, I loved it. I really enjoyed listening to all the different perspectives, people from different walks of life talking about this. And just from a personal perspective, as someone who absolutely experiences imposter feelings, it's just that reassurance that you get from that, don't you? That this is what people go through. So that was really wonderful. I think what really stood out for me across the series was
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how often the evidence can be there and yet the person can't quite take it in.
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And so the importance, especially as coaches of helping people to build internal validation, it matters so much when you're trying to help clients navigate or work with and reduce imposter feelings. People can have positive feedback and impressive and strong track record, know, sponsors that back them. And yet they still maybe don't quite believe that they deserve to be where they are. I thought Dr. Terry Simkin, I thought she captured that really well when she said that the praise can be
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there but then the person physically pushes it away and I see that a lot in coaching you know a client might say you might spot them saying things like you know I know people say I'm doing well but I don't feel it or they explain the evidence away you know I got lucky or it was the team that did that that wasn't me or anyone could have done that and so in coaching what I'd really want to do when I experience that is first acknowledge that with them you know that feeling because it's really real for them but also find ways to help them look at
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that evidence in a way that they can actually take in. Sometimes that
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Rakhee (03:12.365)
might be helping them gather that evidence. think Kate Atkin talked about it as a smile file. I talk about it as proud stories, know, bring some moments with you to the session that you're proud of. They don't have to be big, but you know, let's remind you about moments where you've handled something well, you've made a difference, you've stayed true to yourself, or maybe we look together at a recent situation and help them look at it more carefully. What did you actually do? What did you contribute? What does that tell you about your capability?
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And I think the other thing that can help with building internal validation or viewing evidence in a way that you can take it in is language. So even, and a few of your guests talked about this, even just offering the language of, I'm experiencing imposter feelings, is very different from saying, I'm an imposter. And when you offer that distance from the imposter voice, the client can then start asking, okay, what else might be true about me? What else can I take in? So yeah.
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I think that's really stood out for me. It was a really strong reminder about the importance of that.
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Rachel Morris (04:15.525)
Yeah. And, and Raki, thank you for sharing that. I was struck too by people saying actually, because there were a number of guests that said, and if somebody says, don't be so silly, you're great. Actually, that makes it worse. That can have the counter, the opposite effects of what is intended. And I was having a coffee with a personal friend of mine who had listened to a few of the episodes and said, my gosh, I say that to my team all the time. And I hadn't realized that it could be having.
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Rakhee (04:29.751)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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Rakhee (04:41.389)
It's so well-meaning and well-intended, isn't it?
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Rachel Morris (04:45.239)
It's interesting. Thank you. Helen, what are your thoughts when you look back over the series?
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Helen Brooks (04:52.179)
As with Raki, I loved hearing the different perspectives from such a range of backgrounds, industries, levels of experience, et cetera. And I love the internal validation piece because you see it so often, you see these amazing people who have such fantastic experience and yet they still have those imposter thoughts. And I think that links to a theme that really stood out for me, which was around the importance of support. And it's support on two levels, really.
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One is about getting support for your specific thoughts. So you don't have the sense that you're you're holding it all in and it's kind of eating you up in this sort of horrible, you know, downward spiral. But it's also the second is about support in sharing experiences. So there's a collective realisation that you aren't alone in your thoughts.
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I've run group sessions with some really senior leaders where they've shared their imposter thoughts. And every time there's this sort of collective sense of relief, you know, that comes into the room around it's not just me. People are almost shocked. I've had people turn around and she goes, you get those thoughts. How? Because you're amazing. And and that's one of those things that I think then can be such a powerful tool in helping people to normalise and understand their thoughts.
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Denise McMurray, I think, said in in in her session with you, I think it's about recognising that they're feeling it and understanding that they're feeling it and talking about it. And that is very much an approach I take in working with my clients. It's about creating that space for people to be heard, not negating or dismissing the thoughts, which is what we just touched on. Around it can be a temptation to go, but everyone has it, just get on with it. And that completely
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misrepresents everyone's unique experience because we all feel it to different depths and different frequencies and it manifests and impacts differently for everyone. So actually just kind of opening up the conversation for people to be heard is I think such an important first step and that's what we do in coaching. You know, we we we we give people the the the choice to share as much as they want to share and then
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Helen Brooks (07:12.697)
Only then do we start to look at how we take it forward and managing it. And I think where support really comes in is people often don't realise they have choice in this. It's where that's that classic imposter syndrome, syndrome is a medicalized term. You're not ill if you have these thoughts. So actually, if we can make people realize they do have choice, they have agency, and then they can start to look at how they address it. And that's all in that banner of support for me, because it's really hard to do that.
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If you're living it on your own world in your own head.
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Rachel Morris (07:44.722)
Absolutely. Do know, I'm picking up on something you've just said there, Helen. I know for me personally, one of the strongest kind of recurring patterns that I noticed was that the imposter phenomenon is anything but a personal defect. There's not something wrong with a person. Hence it's not a syndrome, not something that a person has or is. I have imposter syndrome. No, no, no. Instead it's much more context sensitive, impacted by
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past and present systems, kind of all within which this person operates exists and hopefully feels like they belong. And I think this sense of that shared collective sigh you describe when you're exploring it with executive teams, it's not just me, you know, it's like, okay, so it's okay. It's okay to have this, be this, feel this, think this here. Can we move on actually to think about belonging because many...
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guests described imposter feelings as being tied to belonging, tied to legitimacy. So I suppose a more central sense of do I deserve to be here more than am I capable? So how does this show up in your coaching practice and what do you do when it does? Helen, let me start with you if I may.
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Helen Brooks (09:00.691)
Thanks, Rachel. It's such an interesting one because I think for me, do I deserve to be here and am I capable? It's both. Both of those sense sentiments manifest themselves for different people to a greater or lesser extent. Because often imposter thoughts are about undervaluing our own capability and contribution and overvaluing that of others. So that you have this disequilibrium that comes into place. So that
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Am I capable piece is about am I up to the job? But the do I deserve to be here? Well, if you're putting everyone else on a pedestal, you really feel like, you know, you don't deserve to be there. One of my recent coaches is an absolute high flyer and ticked all the same boxes as her colleagues in terms of qualifications, experience, capability, etc. She was getting higher rating, the the top level rating of a you know a large organisation. So she was doing really well.
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But she felt that they were better than her. And then she was withdrawing and not pushing herself forward. It's that classic barrier to inner progression. And so we really tried to work through challenging those unhelpful thought processes to get her into more of a constructive mindset, bringing that choice element to the fore. Now that isn't to say that all triggers of imposter thoughts are internal.
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and and that looked at the role of organisational culture and it found that you know competitive, unsupportive cultures are a really significant, you know, trigger and you know exacerbate those imposter thoughts. So there is something here about organizations helping in addition to offering coaching to you know help people work through their own experience, through training, raising awareness on the topic, but also creating psychologically safe environments where people can
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feel that they can be vulnerable and they see vulnerability in the leaders at the top. And we often coach leaders as as you know. So so in many ways, not only are we help helping the client when we're working on this topic, but we're also unlocking things to enable them to support their teams and create better widening work wider working environments, which I think can be a really nice thing about fostering a a wider but sense of belonging in organisations than just working with that one individual.
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Rachel Morris (11:28.657)
Helen, thank you. I know with many of my own clients as a practitioner myself, know, that challenging assumptions, challenging beliefs, stories that people have told themselves for long, long periods of time, which may have been there for a reason historically, but might be hindering a person here and now, is quite a critical part of a coach's work, isn't it? know, not is it true or is it false, but is it helpful for you or not to hold that belief at this particular moment in time? And working on
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reframing beliefs with clients to enable them to say, and what could be an alternative way of looking at that which might be better for you right now. Interesting. Raki, let me come to you.
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Rakhee (12:10.616)
Thank you. Yeah, I absolutely endorse what Helen said and what you've just said as well. And building on that, I think another way that I see this question about belonging and this theme of belonging show up here is when I notice or hear clients trying to work out how much of themselves they feel able to bring in the room. And I think this is where representation or a sense of is there...
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representation I can connect with plays a part here. So a client might say, or I might hear them say things like, you know, I'm not sure I'm the kind of person they had in mind. You know, very recently someone comes to mind.
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who'd said something along the lines of, know, I'm not sure I fit the picture of who seems to be successful around here. And that's that piece around, you know, representation. If you don't feel like you maybe see others like you progressing, being heard, being backed, then there is the chance that that imposter feeling can become much more convincing. You know, can the volume can go up a little and
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How that might then show up from a client perspective or behavior perspective is self-editing, know, holding back, trying to work out which parts of themselves feel safe to bring into the space, into the room, into the role. I think it was...
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Katie Ford, and she spoke about this brilliantly, she described imposter feelings as forgetting who you really are and thinking you have to be someone else to be safe and accepted. Yeah, really have really really stuck with me. And I think that's why in coaching, of the most, one of the other useful things that we can do in here in this work is help people kind of building what Helen said, you know, it's separating belonging from sameness. You can have a valued place without having to become a copy.
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Rakhee (14:07.036)
of the people that are already there. So one way that I do that is by helping clients, you know, look at where their way, their own way already works. What was it that's been appreciated or recognized that meant that this is the opportunity that you are now in? Where is it that they're already having impact? What strengths and qualities they want to keep and why they want to keep them? And what is it that they don't want to actually give up or lose just to fit in? So inviting them to put that
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you know, in front of mind, bring that into the space. I do though, and this does absolutely build on what Helen was saying from an organisational perspective, is as coaches...
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help and support where our clients do need to pay attention when the signals that they're picking up are real. You know, if people actually around me, the ones that seem to succeed, they all look and sound or behave in similar ways, then that is going to affect, you know, whether someone feels that they can belong. So I think part of our coaching work can be helping the person separate what can they do something with, and then what is it that might be about the environment that they're in? So, you know, where might they need to get support?
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might they be, you know, what strategies might they use to overcome or do something about what they are actually really experiencing that might be going in their way.
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Rachel Morris (15:25.553)
You bring to mind a client of my own, Reki, from six or seven months ago. And actually what was interesting was they were recruiting in type. So type in terms of things like personality and preference and approaches to things. And astonishingly so that actually all of their data suggested that almost without exception, every single person in their leadership team was a kind of carbon copy of them.
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You know, and that when they saw it in the data terms was really quite shocking. But it opened up that conversation about difference and it opened up that conversation about if a person thinks up and you think down or left and you think right, what is the value in that? So I think as coaches, we can do work in that space as well, can't we? Which is we can help people really explore difference and explore.
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diversity in many, many different ways and what they're scared of about that or what they're excited at, what opportunities that brings. And certainly for my client then that was happening very, very subconsciously. They weren't aware that that was doing it until in the coaching room we were able to bring it into their awareness.
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Rakhee (16:31.382)
Yeah, and I love what Helen said because we do get, we have the...
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pleasure and the privilege of working often with senior leaders, people that they, you you can invite them to go, okay, and what part might you be playing yourself as a leader to create a culture and an organization that values difference, that encourages difference, that, you know, so I think that opportunity to impact this in both ways, both as the person that might be experiencing something, but as a leader who can shape something, I think is, yeah, well, I always feel very fortunate.
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that that's the space we get to operate in.
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Rachel Morris (17:06.961)
So I'd like to introduce change, periods of change, because one of the themes that came out throughout the numerous conversations that we've had in this series was that imposter feelings and thoughts can appear to intensify during moments of transition. So whether that's a period of promotion or whether that's somebody stepping into a different or a bigger role, changing sex, people returning, for example, from things like parental leave.
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You know, so returning from a break, people returning from sabbatical, I've got a client of my own came back from sabbatical recently, I was like, what's gonna be going on now? Am I still able to do this? And as coaches, we frequently work with people in these moments. Often it will be the reason that we are called in to work with people. But certainly because of the periods of time that we often see our clients, there will undoubtedly be changes that they're experiencing. So let's share thoughts with our listeners on how we.
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coaches help clients navigate complex thoughts and feelings, particularly during times of transition. Rakhi, for this one, just to shake it up a little bit, why don't you start us off?
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Rakhee (18:14.838)
Sure, I think...
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One of the first things that we can do, and we said this earlier as well, we can help the client notice and acknowledge what they're feeling and normalise why it's showing up. you know, I can recall many a time, and this is personally as well, when you're trying to dismiss these things or you're trying to dismiss these thoughts. And I think creating that space that we've already talked about, saying what it is that you are feeling, naming that, I think, can be the first step. Let's acknowledge it, let's normalise
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this before we can then move into helping them make sense of what stories are you maybe telling yourself about this transition that may not be helpful and that you might be moving to believing immediately. Let's try and create some distance between that. Cause you, as you've said in transitions, I think that's, there is that opportunity for an imposter voice feeling story to get louder. People often feel pressure to prove very quickly. I have the benefit of working with a lot of
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senior women and you know, I noticed that come up a lot, know, this desire to want to prove themselves very quickly. And it might sound like from clients, you know, I should know how to do this by now, or I really need to get on top of all of this before anyone notices I can't afford to get this wrong. And I've been here for two weeks. And that's often where when given a bit of time to reflect and say, so what does this mean from a behavior perspective, people can start to notice that, actually, I'm working very hard. I'm working harder and harder to
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Helen Brooks (19:36.217)
Yeah.
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Rakhee (19:46.977)
to feel safe. And that might look like over preparation, over delivery, second guessing themselves. They might notice that they're holding back on something until it feels perfect, you know, really in a polished place. And the challenge that I think we're there to help our clients with is that those things can feel very protective in the moment, but they can also make the transition feel very heavy or even heavier too. part of what I do is help them notice, you know, where is it that they might be
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to prove themselves rather than maybe find a way to learn.
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their way through the transition. We might look at, you know, recent events or recent situation and just gently challenge and nudge and say, where are they trying to be perfect before they act? Where are they waiting until something feels too complete? Where might there be opportunity and it might be beneficial to ask or to test something out or to learn something from this? And once they can start to notice that pattern, we can start to shift the question. So instead of how do I make sure I don't get this wrong, we can maybe focus
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on what would help me learn what's needed here. You know, I might be asking them what is it that's genuinely needed from you in this moment or in this next role or in this next opportunity and what strengths are you bringing to this that you already have? Where have those strengths really supported you before? But also inviting them to go and what would good enough look like at this stage? So inviting them to kind of have that.
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encouragement to go, doesn't have to be this. Actually the benefit of good enough could be this. I loved also, and I think this could really help here is, you know, when Lucy Ryan reframes imposter feelings as a moment of growth, I think that could be really useful reframe. If a client, you know, they're going through a transition, they're recognizing these feelings, feelings that come with moving to something new, something stretching, helping, like Lucy suggests, the client to see that discomfort.
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Rakhee (21:43.681)
but it's not proof that they shouldn't be there. It's a sign that they are stretching themselves, that they are pushing themselves. And what's the benefit of that? Inviting them to connect with that and encouraging them to find practical ways. So whether that's asking for feedback earlier, is it, where might they feel stretched, but not too stretched to share something before it's fully formed, testing some small moves that really just take that learning, it comes from a place of learning rather than
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Helen Brooks (22:03.034)
Yeah.
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Rakhee (22:13.594)
improving, I think that's what we can help clients do here.
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Rachel Morris (22:16.657)
That's beautiful, learning rather than proving. And actually there is a patience that we can have with other people and try to have with ourselves when we are learning, isn't there? Which we don't have quite so much when we are proving. Rakhi, thank you. Helen, I can sense that you're going to build on this.
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Rakhee (22:30.369)
Absolutely.
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Helen Brooks (22:36.561)
I was just no you know, I was nodding my head so much when Raki was talking there, you know, that that sense of people needing to prove themselves yesterday, the importance of being perfect, such unrealistic, harsh expectations on ourselves. That's something that really shows up in in the coaching room. going through times of change, you know, even really positive the key thing is it can be the really positive things as well, such as promotion and going into our dream jobs, you know, those are key times when imposter thoughts can get triggered.
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And I suppose that makes sense because we are moving from an area where we've been an expert and that we know really well to something that's newer, that really maybe matters to us more and is less familiar. So say for example in a in a legal or consulting environment where we've moved from being the delivery experts to having to move more into the sort of sales and business development side of things or leading a bigger team with much more visibility. you know, Katie Ford, I think she said, you know, my gosh, you're not Katie the clever one anymore.
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you know, yes, because your area of expertise is no longer the thing that you're going to be known for so much. And that can be very discombobulating, which is one of my favorite words. and so, you know, humans have this sort of innate negativity bias. You know, we focus on the negative and what's missing and what we don't have. And that becomes you know, that that that makes sense from a survival perspective. We need to watch out for the hazards more. But that can be a real overcompensation. And when we apply that to thinking of a period of transition,
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We can be really focusing on what we don't know and what we don't bring and what the person before us did. And that that I think links back to Raki's earlier point about authenticity. You know, how do I, you know, I I can't do it the way that person does it or did it. And so that can also be super challenging. And so in very similar reach up to what Raki said, you know, the first step,
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you know, I find with my clients is to really kind of help them identify, appreciate, and build on the strengths, recognizing that they will do the role in their own way. And so it's important to think and understand that so they can consciously engage. Often you ask people what their strengths are and they will freeze. They can tell you, you ask them what they're not good at and they can give you a list in 30 seconds. You know, they go straight at the top of the mind. But what the strengths are people like you can see people visibly cringe.
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Helen Brooks (24:59.121)
And so that's what we really need to do is help people to really value what they do bring. Then, Rachel, you mentioned earlier about the importance of reframing. What could be a different lens on this? That's also that positive reframe is such an important thing. But also saying you don't have to believe this other view right now, but just acknowledge that there is another perspective. And that in itself is a really important first step to activate other neural pathways.
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Because if our default pathway is it's my fault, I'm not good enough, I I'm gonna get found out, then that's a really easy one. We just want to start to think about the other neural pathway. and then, you know, I'm I'm building on everything that you guys were saying was just coming at me then is that we then work on growth I work with a mom positive reframe and growth mindset, you know. Raki, you quoted Lucy Wine about that moment of growth. Absolutely. It's where we have a growth mindset in a learning.
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Rachel Morris (25:42.331)
sports to come together.
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Helen Brooks (25:56.266)
Context. So it's a learning mindset so that people can be kinder to themselves on this learning journey and see it as something that's exciting, rather than trying to avoid that perfectionist chat trap, which is linked to such a fixed mindset thing as I should be perfect or I don't deserve to be here. And it's really showing, and particularly, we work with so many quite high anxious overachievers who are so hard on themselves. That's you know, I'm guilty of the same, you know. So it it's
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how we really help them to unlock that. So it's through that strength development, positive reframing, growth mindset.
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Rachel Morris (26:33.489)
Thank you, Helen, very much. When I stop recording this, I'm going to ask you to spell discombobulated for me, just as a final little... So start getting your thoughts together about that one. Now, let's think again, as coaches, often people come to us with quite kind of practical or immediate dilemmas that they're looking to work through. What are you bringing to our conversation today? What would you like to get out of our time together?
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Helen Brooks (26:40.146)
Yeah.
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Helen Brooks (26:44.617)
Like a spelling bee.
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Rakhee (26:48.418)
Thank
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Rachel Morris (27:02.169)
So, I don't know, it might be a presentation, I need to have a conversation about my promotion, or I'm going into a really difficult meeting and I'm really quite concerned about it, I don't feel very confident about it. What are the practical approaches that you would use with a client to help them manage their feelings or thoughts of being an imposter in those very practical situations, ladies? What do you do? Why don't I start with Helen? Let's come to you this time.
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Helen Brooks (27:30.707)
So it it might sound a bit left-field, but the first thing I work on with people, if they're coming and their their head is just whirring and they're in a high kind of stress situation, we've just got to do a physiological reset. And that for me is the most important thing to focus on because our thoughts and our bodies, you know, Richard, we've talked about this for you now, are we they're so interconnected. And we spend so much time thinking about
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what's going on in our heads that we forget that connection. And when we are hyper-stressed and hyper-vigilant to threats, our bodies are flooded with cortisol and adrenaline, our shoulders tense, our breathing shallows, and it's harder to think clearly. It is very hard to take someone from a real positive negative, high arousal and panic to a positive mindset without doing a physiological bridge and reset.
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I teach clients a really simple breathing technique, which is basically just a two-stage breath. So it's a normal breath in and pop often the hand on the belly works really well. So normal breath in, and then before you breathe out, it's a second stage to really fill up and then a normal breath out. So normal breath in, fill up, normal breath out. And literally three rounds of that flood the body with oxygen.
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It reduces the adrenaline in the cortisol and helps you to kind of think, okay, I'm not actually about to die here. So then we can move on. And it's such an important physiological reset. Whatever breathing technique people use, it works, and that's great. The only thing to watch with box breathing, holding your breath when you're under stress exacerbates the stress. So just but but it's just you get that physiological reset and then.
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People are eng able to engage rationally. It's a fault to say people go from absolute panic to we're okay, actually. It just doesn't work. So that's my first step. And then I start the dissociation of the thought, which Raki mentioned earlier, actually, around you know, I am having a thought that I'm not up to the job or I'm not going to do it, as opposed to I cannot do the job. And then you go one further step away, which
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Helen Brooks (29:44.978)
I'm having an imposter thought. I'm observing that I'm having a thought that I'm not up to the job. Because the further you can dissociate the thought, the more easy it is to bring in that reframe and take the strength out of the thought as well. And that's something that people do find really, really helpful. And it's not it seems obvious, but I mean it's easy in anxiety management as well. It's just distance the thought from the from you being in it. So those are my two things really.
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Rachel Morris (30:12.113)
So moving from I am as opposed to I notice I am thinking or feeling or experiencing. Thank you, Helen. I often, I agree about very frequently clients will ask for or if you offer be up for a moment of stilling when they first come into the coaching room, very, very frequently. And I, as well as breathing techniques, often use sensory things. So, you know,
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Helen Brooks (30:18.535)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Rachel Morris (30:41.541)
touch and sight and where are these distant sounds that you can hear. Again with that focus on really really bringing people just back to the present to the here and now where there's safety and from there we can free things up to do the work. Thank you, thank you. Rakhi.
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Rakhee (30:59.958)
So firstly, absolutely agree with what you've both said. That would be my starting point too. I always think of it as body and breath. What can we do with our body? What can we do with our breath that can help us steady, that can help us regulate, that can help us shift us to a place where, you know, as Helen described, we can then activate the part of our brain which helps us do some thinking and some noticing around what's going on. Once then a client is feeling steadier, a bit more regulated. One of things I,
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offer is a way to help them separate the feeling from the task. So if they've arrived thinking about a specific thing that they're noticing they're having a positive feelings about, feeling worried about, we know that those feelings can quickly and more likely because of our bias towards the negative view, pull us into an imagined disaster. What's going to go wrong? How am I going to be judged? What will people think? And so what we can offer is back to that space to slow that down,
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to invite them to notice and name what is it that they're feeling, name that, share that. What story or thoughts are they noticing that their mind is offering up? And then inviting them to be able to go, and what do we know that's actually true? You know, what exists in terms of the evidence that suggests, actually this is something that I can do, or here's some stuff that I can bring to this. And once we're able to do that, we can help the client see that there are two things going on.
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the feeling and then there's the actual task that's in front of them. So the feeling might be I'm going to get found out. The task might be...
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I need to open the meeting clearly and just offering them that slowing down and that being able to just, you know, those first few moments, simplify them, name them. that distinction can often be really helpful, to a client because it gives them something much, much more practical to work with. When we know what that task is and we're in a steadier place, we can get clearer about, okay, what would help me here? What does this moment need from you? What are two or three things that I need to land or prepare that are going to help me open?
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Rakhee (33:05.328)
that meeting clearly or help me share my recommendation here. There's another opportunity again to shift the focus. Again, I guess this is a reframe through questioning, right? Notice the questions that they seem to be asking themselves. So if they look more in the flavor of how am going to come across and, you know, I'm worried that they're going to think of this about me, we can help them shift that to what are you here to help them with? What is it that only you can bring or that you can do in this opportunity or in this meeting?
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So a question I might often use before someone's got a meeting or a presentation is what's the one thing you want your audience to leave with? It's simple, but it's inviting them to move that focus away from the worry of judgment to go and what is it that I'm here to do that I want them to achieve out of this? You know, what I'm here to do to be useful. And then the other thing is, or two other things, one is for some people a small anchor statement can help, you know, something that feels true, action-orientated. And again, we can only offer ourselves this.
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when we are steadier. So what is it I might say to myself? It doesn't have to be a big affirmation or a confidence statement. It could be something really usable like being clear and useful, slow down and land the point, pause, breathe, answer the question, whatever is fit for purpose. So we might spend time co-creating that together.
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The final thing and what's key with all of this, not only what things I've shared, but what Helen has shared and what you've shared is practicing outside of the moment. So practice those breathing techniques, practice that body posture that you know gives you a bit of a boost. Practice those things that you, those statements that you might say, do all of it when you don't need it so that it's readily available when you need it.
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Rachel Morris (34:49.445)
Maraki, thank you. There are some brilliant tips and ideas in there. And I particularly love that idea about separating out the feeling from the task. There's something very, very powerful in that, how I'm feeling about it, but what I am here to do. I think that's quite powerful. I'm struck in this conversation, but also across the series about how holding a stance of, I suppose what I would term compassionate realism is really, really significant where...
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we as coaches, but for anyone listening as friends, as partners, as colleagues, as line managers, we can really help validate, experience, test assumptions, help provide and people find evidence where it can be found, but particularly to help an individual feel safe and supported as that process is happening. So, our job is to see and to hear a person in the moment, isn't it? And it feels like that's very powerful from hearing what you've talked about today.
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Ladies, thank you so much. And Rakhi and Helen, as this episode draws to a close, I'm gonna do what I always do. And I like to leave our listeners with a final thought from our guests. Helen, let's start with you. What's the one thing that you would say to someone experiencing feelings or thoughts of being an imposter at this moment in time? What would you say directly to them?
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Helen Brooks (36:09.745)
Narrowing it down to one thing is really hard, but I'm gonna go really simply and just go there's just the word choice. you have a choice in whether to live with these thoughts or not and what you do about it. So I've learned personally to manage imposter thoughts. I know many of my clients have too. You don't have to live with it. The progress won't be linear, you know, you're looking at an upward trend to manage the thoughts, but the data points will bounce around.
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And don't give up if it's a bad day. or worse still, use it as an example of another thing that you're not good enough at. we have the choice and I like this mental image of the choir, and our imposter thoughts are only one voice in that choir, and we are the choir master, so we can choose to hear from a different voice, and it all comes down to choice.
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Rachel Morris (37:03.825)
love that Helen. Thank you very much indeed. Rekki, what's the one thing you'd say to somebody?
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Rakhee (37:09.708)
I think find your way to pause. Find your way to pause so that you can notice it and name it. You know, whether that's a deep breath that you take so that you can then say, I'm noticing, I'm experiencing imposter feelings and create that space between you and the thought that you're having.
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And then that gives you the opportunity to check it against reality and do that again in a way that you feel comfortable about. It could be talking to someone you trust. It could be writing down what you're afraid is true or asking yourself, actually, what evidence do I have that I can handle this? But I think that first bit, you know, find your way to pause to be able to notice it and to name it so you can create some space.
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Rachel Morris (37:58.61)
Thank you. And I was thinking as we're at the final episode what my response to my own question is. And it's one if anyone listening knows me or has worked with me will have heard me say before, but it is very much, let's just take it one step at a time and with kindness to yourself as we do. Which I think probably mirrors the things that you ladies are saying here as well. Helen, Raki, thank you so much for taking the time to talk with me today. Your insight has been.
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powerful and I'm sure our listeners will be keen to reflect on the ideas you shared. So on behalf of all of us, thank you.
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Helen Brooks (38:33.725)
Thank you, Rachel. Great to be here.
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Rakhee (38:33.966)
Thank you so much. Yeah, thanks for having us.
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Rachel Morris (38:37.071)
And remember, if you'd like to learn more about the work we do at Motion Learning, more about Racky and Helen, you can find links and additional details in the show notes. So that brings us to the end of series two of Work Truths, Off the Record. If you've enjoyed it, please subscribe wherever you listen, importantly, so you don't miss out on the updates about series three.
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And as always, if you've got a moment, a quick review would really help us to continue to reach more people who might benefit from listening. So until next time, this is me, Rachel Morris, a coach and your host signing off. And together, let's keep the truth off mute.
