E6 - What If Surrender Is a Form of Creation? | with Nick Mulvey

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Welcome to The Watchcast, where we explore the power and beauty of words.
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We're your hosts.
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I'm Ben.
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And I'm Mabel.
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And today we have the joy to sit down with musician and songwriter Nick Mulvey.
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Let's get into the words.
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Nick Mulvey, welcome to the WODcast.
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It is a delight to have you with us today.
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Thanks for having me.
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Your music fuses folk, indie and world music traditions, but it's your lyrics that linger.
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They have the quality of incantations, spare and unhurried, words chosen not to be just heard, but deeply felt.
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So Nick Mulvey, what is your word of the day?
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Well, it's great to be here.
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Thank you for having me, guys.
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and a pleasure to have a conversation just centered on words.
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The word that I have for you guys today is yield.
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Mmm.
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Yield.
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Because as a student in London, I was standing on a train platform, looking at the advert on the other side of the tube.
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I was waiting for the train, and there was...
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a poster for I think it was the 10-year anniversary reissue of a Pearl Jam album called Yield.
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But the point is that I was just looking at that word for five minutes, absentmindedly, as my train came, and then it occurred to me the word means both to produce...
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and to surrender.
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And I just thought, that's the kind of thing that lights me up.
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I just thought, that's interesting.
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That, like, that's interesting.
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It can mean both.
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And it speaks to something that, at that younger age and still now, I find compelling.
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That, um, that the two are connected, production and yield.
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And I think it's compelling because it's not that what we're told, it's not the narrative that, um,
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culture conditions us in, in all our hard work and our effort.
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But then it maybe speaks to something deeper or higher, which is about who or what,
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we can align with and who's really doing the work and who's really producing things and so yield.
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What a fascinating word and I do wonder you mentioned surrender in your description and I think surrender often has this connotation of weakness, of defeat, of giving up.
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However, when you look at it through the lens that you describe, connecting it to producing, it feels like quite an empowering word.
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So I was wondering what your relationship to surrender specifically is.
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Yeah, I mean, it's...
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Whether I like it or not, it's a big part of my life.
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Yes.
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My relationship to surrender is like often resistance and, you know, suffering or pain or fear.
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And yet, and yet grace, and yet most or all of the best things in my life come through surrender and...
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You know, I believe in my life, you know, over the different points in my life, I can recognize that I have been strengthened through weakening.
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Mmm, that's really beautiful.
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And your recent album is called Dark Harvest, which is such an interesting title because what is harvested in the dark in the shadow?
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And I wonder if that relates to this time of breaking down, being broken down by something greater, you know, being humbled is what I hear.
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Yeah.
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You know, like by, yeah, what's been harvested in the dark for you, Nick?
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Well, yeah.
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It does, the album very much relates to that.
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And although these are dynamics I can speak of throughout my adult life, it's not so applicable in childhood, but maybe.
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But yeah, I am specifically referencing the last years in my life.
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And well, I guess, you know...
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I could answer it on different levels.
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On one level, like, lots of creativity has been harvested in the dark.
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Like, you know, I released two albums last year because I had loads to work with, loads to write about.
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And I've got lots more coming up.
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But on the deeper level, it's this relationship with the divine that is only made possible when I'm not trying to do it all myself.
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And I kind of was, because that's what I was told was the right way to do it.
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And I love notions of surrender.
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And I could see the beauty of it.
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As a young artist, I could see.
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But in terms of actually applying that in my life, it took some real costs and real losses.
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Yeah, I'm curious.
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And I'm still just a beginner, you know, every day failing at this.
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Yeah, and I wonder when you first started writing compared to now, did you used to wrestle with words and now they've come sort of through you or was that something you always experienced at the beginning of your writing?
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It would be a mix.
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You know, there'd be moments where it would flow and land really uninterrupted really well.
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I think for me, I would wrestle though, yeah.
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And I still wrestle, but I noticed the wrestling is maybe a bit less.
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Like the wrestle might take the form of...
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an unconscious tendency to raise my register when I was writing because I wanted, you know, for some unconscious motive, you know, like I wanted to appear sophisticated or I don't know what, or whatever it was, my own, like, thing.
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I would, you know, some lyrics that I like, but they are, like, trying quite hard.
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I remember looking at this book of sort of Islamic geometry.
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That geometry you find through the Islamic world.
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And it was talking about the rose and the trellis.
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The trellis is a structure that we humans can make.
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And the rose is a structure that, you know, an unfathomable structure that has an aliveness that grows through our very simple trellises.
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There's a beautiful kind of like little phrase about...
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you know, the limits of what we can do, actually.
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That's kind of what we're talking about.
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So I then...
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I like that.
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And I put that... All we ever do is learn the laws of the trellis to better understand the rose.
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I mean, it actually sounds quite nice when I see it.
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Yes.
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The laws and, you know...
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I was hoping that would be an example of me trying too hard as a youngster, but...
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I quite like it, but...
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I've been through a process anyway of just...
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trying to settle in my own register.
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And you can choose a register shift when you want it, but it's just... And that just took a bit of maturing, a bit of time.
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Good things take time, I've been told.
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They certainly do.
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In your Dark Harvest album, one song is called Solastalgia.
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And I was wondering if you could explain this word to us.
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Yeah.
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I gather it's a new word, a new term.
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And it was coined in the early 2000s by an Australian philosopher who I can't remember his name right now.
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I'm short of his name, but he was reaching to describe this sense of feeling like missing your own home whilst you're in it.
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because of changes.
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So you're in the same place, but things have changed.
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And so it's not, so it's not the same place.
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So it could be used, I think it was applied, maybe even intended for to track some of the new feelings that we feel in an age of environmental degradation and
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Or like, you know, biohabitat loss.
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Yeah.
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So, and the changes around all the development and industrialization and...
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And yeah, and I felt it on a personal level as I was going through shifts in my life at home.
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So yeah, different.
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But he spoke to both at the same time.
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And it's a new word, as you say.
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Do you think we would benefit from having more precise words to express the emotional experiences that we have?
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I think so, because it's a strong...
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asset to anyone who has that.
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I can see that with my children and, you know, and also as you move through the world, whether we need it as a kind of, as a larger group, probably yes.
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Yeah, I mean, I would agree.
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I think words, they really help you to understand what's going on inside.
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And then realizing that a concept such as Solostalgia, where you feel not at home, although being at home,
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That's what I'm hearing out of it.
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Everything is changing.
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Yeah, I guess it allows you to connect to a shared experience with others.
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Yeah, which is, I guess, why we have words for it.
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Right.
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And put a definition on something quite kind of subtle or undefined.
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And then that helps you, you know, process, doesn't it?
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Helps you understand what's going on.
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Yeah.
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And do you perceive words as spellcasting?
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I mean, you know, especially as a man who has a relationship with God, I imagine prayer is a huge part of your life.
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How does that relate to your music?
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Do you find yourself sort of, yeah, like it has this quality of incantation sometimes.
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I'm curious about that.
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Yeah, definitely.
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I have a great respect for the power of words.
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And I was a teenager when I looked at that word spelling and saw it, you know,
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And just went like, wait.
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So good, isn't it?
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Yeah.
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Oh, you know, there's some magic here.
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There's some power.
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I take my role responsibility or my platform and that responsibility, I take that seriously.
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I don't, like, I don't want to be a part of...
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perpetuating, unhelpful stuff.
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Sometimes the balance there becomes about not trying to overthink things because sometimes my best offering is my guttural, you know, instinctive cry or something, you know, like that.
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So, but yeah, I'm definitely aware of not wanting to, of the power of words and then not wanting to misuse that.
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Speaking of your words and the lyric that you already mentioned, I think it goes on with, because you got lost in comparison, always pretending you knew when everything you were looking for was already looking at you.
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And that really stood out to me.
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And I was just wondering what you are looking for, what you were looking for, that you then realized was already looking at you.
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It's these...
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These...
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play with words to explore some of the basic dynamics of the moment, of being a self in a world of inside and outside.
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I was very steeped at that time, which is about 2016, 2017, in the writing of my second album, Wake Up Now, and this song, Mountain to Move.
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I was enamored with teachings from the East, sometimes called non-duality, so teachings from Ramana Maharshi or from books like Eckhart Tolle and how they dovetail with psychedelics as well, which has always been a thing.
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but also you know like poetry i love a lot of the poetry i'd read would explore these kind of places about so um because i was lost in comparison or you get lost in comparison yeah it seemed to be like um
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the mind is such a great tool, but is often the thing that entraps us with our like distinctions about reality with, with what, you know, it can, are we feeling joyful or are we feeling frustrated, can often just be around the framing in our mind around, and so lost in comparison is a, is a picking one of those kind of structures of mind or the mistakes that we make.
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To kind of point to the whole mind thing.
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It's like I'm saying mind, we get lost in the mind.
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So we get lost in comparison.
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They have a place, the mind, and it's discernment, obviously, but when they rule, it's a tyrannical master.
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So we get lost in comparison.
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always pretending you knew, you know, that thing of like, everyone walks around like pretending they know what this is all about.
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So with that lyric, yeah, everything you're looking for is already looking at you.
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It's about the fact that, well, one of those teachings from the East would say, my mind, my body and the world all arise within the awareness which I am.
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which we call I.
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Now saying I am English or I am hungry or I am a man is a qualification of that pure I. Yeah.
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And they all may be true, but there'll be temporary truths and passing truths.
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And what is a more permanent truth would be that I that is so...
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And that I, so my mind, my body and the world all arise within the awareness which I am.
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And the I that I am doesn't share the same limits or destinies as those things.
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So it was before I was born and it will be thereafter I die sort of thing.
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But it won't be me, Nick, the one who is, it would be something else.
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All right, so I'm kind of playing with all that in those lyrics.
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Big topics.
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Yeah, and it's getting underneath the big topics.
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It says big topics and then this is underneath them because it's like, it's saying...
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At that deeper level, the I, who I am, is indivisible from the world.
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And we are taught to overlook this primary non-object in order to search in objects for our satisfaction.
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But it keeps us on the train of dissatisfaction.
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So that's very much the pool from which those lyrics and that whole album was coming from.
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And I believe it's true, but it goes through... What I find an interesting modification as I've grown in the years because...
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I would notice in those years, I would sometimes read something biblical or sort of from that path and I would see that the language was different.
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It was always couched in a duality.
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So what I was interested in was non-duality, like oneness.
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And it was a kind of an assumption that like oneness is the best, isn't it?
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Like, you know, that's going to be true.
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But...
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And there's an important but here, like those teachings from the East, absorbing them as I was largely through books or YouTube, not couched in the culture and raising the culture, but as a recipient through some process of interpretation and dilution or whatever, it wasn't holding me enough as a man.
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It wasn't giving me enough to navigate this world.
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There was a, I guess you'd call it a bypass or a, it wasn't, um...
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Yeah, it wasn't really giving me enough in all my roles as a man.
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And I was kind of like very in a world of all that inspiration and that kind of, you know, yeah, all of that poetry.
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But it took some more living and some bearing out and some challenges and massive mistakes and, you know, losses.
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Yeah.
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to start to understand that.
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And there's a thread of language here because I find it interesting that then when I'm now on this path with Jesus, because I basically cried out and I said, I need you, Lord.
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Like I have been trying to be the chief of my life and that doesn't work.
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And so I then began this path of being with Jesus.
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And I then noticed that this language that was couched in this duality, phrases like, Father, make me a good ambassador for your kingdom.
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God is out there.
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And the one who's praying is here.
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And there's a kind of like it doesn't it's almost like it leaves that deep emerging just to kind of be and it's in its position is a bit outwards in the spiral.
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Just let that be in and let's just be an individuated self in this world.
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And I noticed that this path couched in this duality has so much more for me as a man, as a father, as a financial being, as a musician, as all these roles and these duties.
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So I track and trace the language through my mind.
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through that journey.
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Very interesting.
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And do you find in amongst these very, very profound and deep inquiries that you can lose words where words just cannot suffice to hold what is felt or what needs to be said or sung or written?
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Yeah, I think so.
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I think there's a lot that is...
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ineffable what a word we love fantastic word important word there's a lot that is there's not much that is effable that's a good question yeah well that's where music comes in and music takes over because it's it's it's that movement in action that is just an expression in sound yeah
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And you studied ethnomusicology?
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That's right, yeah.
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And what is that exactly?
213
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At SOAS, right?
214
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Yeah.
215
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Yeah, I studied at SOAS.
216
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Oh, amazing.
217
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Yeah, global literature.
218
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Oh, fantastic.
219
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Nice.
220
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I was there last night, actually, for a concert, and I really enjoyed being back there.
221
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So, yeah, so I had an undergraduate degree in ethnomusicology at SOAS, and that was a very fertile time for me.
222
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So you spoke about the Eastern religion and philosophies and now the Christianity.
223
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I was wondering if you have identified some underlying truth that both advocate for.
224
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I...
225
00:20:26.118 --> 00:20:27.419
I have to think about that one, I think.
226
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Yeah.
227
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It's a big question.
228
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Yeah.
229
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I love it.
230
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I do feel they all point towards God, but I'm in process with that answer.
231
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Brilliant.
232
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If you know what I mean.
233
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Good things take time.
234
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Yeah.
235
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Once more.
236
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Or maybe one day there'll be a song where you have...
237
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maybe a hint of an answer.
238
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And I certainly look forward to dancing to it.
239
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Because that's another thing beyond the beautiful words and lyrics, it is your music that inspires the body to move.
240
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And yeah, just wanted to extend my gratitude because it's so important that we
241
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we do get to move this vessel around from time to time.
242
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Lest we get too conceptual and... Not too much thinking about the eye, where the hands are.
243
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Yeah, definitely.
244
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So much of the... Well, and a lot of my best work with words comes from the body or in relation to movement and all the process of holding an instrument that kind of thing like has a bearing on
245
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on how words arrive and so yeah.
246
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We have spoken previously, I have a different guest about the language of the body, you know, as it's something that's always communicating to us.
247
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And if we do have the time to listen, we might discover maybe a truth that we tend to avoid or maybe ignore.
248
00:21:55.910 --> 00:21:58.071
And it's just something that for me,
249
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I rarely dance when I'm sad.
250
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So it's just whether I'm just happy because of life or whether my body is just like had a good night rest and in the morning I have a bit of time to put on some mountains to move.
251
00:22:12.244 --> 00:22:14.966
I also love that the album is called Wake Up Now.
252
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And the song, I think one of my favorites is A Mountain to Move.
253
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And sometimes waking up.
254
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feels like you have to move a mountain just to get out of bed and start the day.
255
00:22:25.834 --> 00:22:31.997
But you're always grateful once you're out of the bed and once, I guess, you've moved or climbed the mountain.
256
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So I just really like that connection.
257
00:22:34.238 --> 00:22:34.899
Beautiful, yeah.
258
00:22:35.319 --> 00:22:40.081
And if I may, I would like to read out another one of your lyrics that stood out to me.
259
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It's from the song Fever to the Form.
260
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So whether music or madness, we live by one of the two, by one of the two.
261
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So go on, fill your heart up with gladness.
262
00:22:53.476 --> 00:22:57.441
And I was wondering which one you live by, music or madness.
263
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Well, I'm clear on what my aspiration is.
264
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My aspiration is to live by music.
265
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Okay.
266
00:23:05.754 --> 00:23:16.262
So in my understanding of that lyric, it was kind of like you can live in, you can walk in harmony with these days what I call God, or we can live outside of it in our own strength.
267
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And I'm obviously clear in my judgment of those, in that like one of them is music, say harmony and order, and the other is madness, which is madness.
268
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So...
269
00:23:33.555 --> 00:23:41.043
that's what I was kind of pointing to there, was like reaching for a base duality between music and madness.
270
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And that, yeah, we can live, as I said, we can live with music
271
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in harmony or out of harmony.
272
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So fill your heart up with gladness.
273
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Not a moment too soon, just felt right.
274
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And partly it's the rhyme with madness, but also like it's a way into out of the madness and into that music is through that heart-filled gratitude.
275
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Gladness.
276
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Such a great word.
277
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Gladness.
278
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It's nice, singing it out loud.
279
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Gladness.
280
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As you started to use this word God more publicly, have you noticed a shift in public perception?
281
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Because it can be very triggering for people to talk about.
282
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I think so.
283
00:24:24.082 --> 00:24:24.162
God.
284
00:24:25.503 --> 00:24:26.764
Yes.
285
00:24:26.904 --> 00:24:32.188
And it's often a game of guessing as well, because people don't always say when they are like...
286
00:24:32.448 --> 00:24:38.910
you know, some people are voice-iferous and vocal and, you know, voice-iferous, we've got to pause that.
287
00:24:38.990 --> 00:24:40.930
What does voice-iferous mean?
288
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You guys are the word guys.
289
00:24:42.271 --> 00:24:43.711
We're aspiring word girls.
290
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Yeah, and girls.
291
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And girls.
292
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Word lovers.
293
00:24:46.672 --> 00:24:55.935
Voice-iferous would be like vocal, I guess, but like with a certain, yeah, a certain like, I've never particularly analysed that, but there it is.
294
00:24:55.955 --> 00:24:57.055
Sorry to interrupt.
295
00:24:57.175 --> 00:24:59.356
Yeah, you have to, I get that.
296
00:25:00.356 --> 00:25:00.416
Um,
297
00:25:01.995 --> 00:25:07.200
Some people will be vociferous and really let me know that they don't like that word.
298
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And I get that.
299
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That was me until recently.
300
00:25:10.363 --> 00:25:11.664
And I respect that as well.
301
00:25:12.465 --> 00:25:13.206
It's complex.
302
00:25:13.486 --> 00:25:14.647
And there's a lot of hurt.
303
00:25:15.348 --> 00:25:23.075
And so I hear those people.
304
00:25:23.316 --> 00:25:24.377
And then a lot of people...
305
00:25:25.580 --> 00:25:32.586
are vociferous positively, and then you also don't know the people who aren't vociferous because you don't hear them.
306
00:25:33.687 --> 00:25:36.309
I'm going to stop using that word now.
307
00:25:36.349 --> 00:25:38.370
Well, maybe later, because it is a great word.
308
00:25:38.911 --> 00:25:41.533
It sounds like a made-up word because it's too good.
309
00:25:41.653 --> 00:25:43.895
I thought it was a good word when you reacted to that.
310
00:25:43.935 --> 00:25:44.435
Wait, is that?
311
00:25:44.615 --> 00:25:46.397
I've heard that many times, yeah.
312
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Vociferous.
313
00:25:50.060 --> 00:25:51.281
I definitely didn't make it up.
314
00:25:52.421 --> 00:25:52.862
So...
315
00:25:54.315 --> 00:26:04.874
Yeah, I'm in a process of, you know, of being true to what I need to be true to and letting that,
316
00:26:07.849 --> 00:26:12.532
change and modify what's around me as it will.
317
00:26:13.893 --> 00:26:29.443
But I do have a duty, I think, to connect the dots, to still really care about where I've been and what I've said and songs I've written and bring all that with me.
318
00:26:29.463 --> 00:26:32.705
There was a tendency initially, because I kind of had to renounce...
319
00:26:33.625 --> 00:26:39.630
Personally, I chose to renounce a lot of self-directed spiritual New Age seeking.
320
00:26:40.811 --> 00:26:46.235
And a lot of my material and artistry was, like, giving voice to that seeking.
321
00:26:48.795 --> 00:26:57.038
There was an initial tendency, because this is in the last three years, there was an initial tendency to kind of like, I just want to be absorbed in this new way.
322
00:26:57.118 --> 00:26:58.979
It's giving me so much, it's making so much sense.
323
00:27:01.580 --> 00:27:08.322
And I really care since then to actually like, yeah, to really bring it through from the past where I've been.
324
00:27:08.342 --> 00:27:11.163
And it's all, there's a place for it all, for sure.
325
00:27:12.143 --> 00:27:16.727
And on the word God, I would like to read this quote.
326
00:27:16.927 --> 00:27:20.470
God is the blanket we throw over mystery to give it form.
327
00:27:20.490 --> 00:27:25.014
Which I think is very beautiful.
328
00:27:25.374 --> 00:27:32.120
So maybe next time someone is voiciferous in a negative way, this could be a one-liner to just help them, not help them, but...
329
00:27:32.845 --> 00:27:35.066
allow them to think of the word God in a new way.
330
00:27:35.526 --> 00:27:38.227
I feel like God is such a weighted word, right?
331
00:27:38.287 --> 00:27:41.949
It's got so much history and so much connection to it.
332
00:27:42.689 --> 00:27:48.471
And I like connecting it to mystery because isn't it just mysterious that we all get to experience this?
333
00:27:48.531 --> 00:27:49.252
It's beautiful.
334
00:27:49.432 --> 00:27:55.534
And what you say takes me to an interesting distinction of definitions around the word to know.
335
00:27:56.415 --> 00:27:56.775
Because...
336
00:27:57.735 --> 00:28:04.657
Obviously, in English, we have two, at least, but two main definitions of that word to know.
337
00:28:04.677 --> 00:28:07.718
There's to know as in, I know algebra.
338
00:28:08.699 --> 00:28:11.360
I don't actually, particularly.
339
00:28:11.380 --> 00:28:18.202
But, you know, you can know something as in, intellectually grasp it, almost possess it.
340
00:28:19.302 --> 00:28:21.503
And then there's to know as in, be intimate with it.
341
00:28:23.108 --> 00:28:26.292
to know a place or a person.
342
00:28:26.352 --> 00:28:35.004
It's like I don't know them in terms of I can't grasp the whole... You're immediately taken to...
343
00:28:36.515 --> 00:28:38.436
the ungraspable, the mystery.
344
00:28:38.996 --> 00:28:57.061
But I know them, like I know, and that's a really key distinction for me because I've found in my experience that like, although it's a joke to think you might grasp intellectually, you know, the maker of, you know, how can a cog know the machine?
345
00:28:57.841 --> 00:29:01.025
How can a teaspoon of water comprehend the ocean, you know?
346
00:29:02.587 --> 00:29:07.512
And yet the other way of knowing is imminently available for us, is absolutely available.
347
00:29:07.532 --> 00:29:09.774
This creator wishes to be known.
348
00:29:10.235 --> 00:29:11.837
He's available to be known.
349
00:29:12.417 --> 00:29:13.919
He's longing for us to find him.
350
00:29:15.340 --> 00:29:25.287
And that takes us into another language thing, and that's another thread around the way genders are used through language as we approach the divine.
351
00:29:25.327 --> 00:29:32.852
But I find I can't, because of that intimacy, I can't refer to God as it.
352
00:29:35.375 --> 00:29:37.176
So it is very much a father figure.
353
00:29:38.397 --> 00:29:42.119
It is, yeah, in the same way that I know that the earth is my mother.
354
00:29:42.559 --> 00:29:44.320
So it's father sky, mother earth?
355
00:29:44.440 --> 00:29:47.162
It is, it is.
356
00:29:47.922 --> 00:29:55.646
I can see that the earth is my mother in her selfless giving and in her cycles and her weathers and moods.
357
00:29:55.686 --> 00:29:58.028
That's interesting, your cycle, yeah.
358
00:29:59.168 --> 00:30:05.755
And likewise, I find that it kind of holds, it feels right that God is my father.
359
00:30:07.250 --> 00:30:18.814
It's interesting because that specific fact that in the Bible it's father and him was when I was younger what very much put me off because as a woman in this world you went wait a minute.
360
00:30:18.934 --> 00:30:19.394
I'll get there.
361
00:30:19.594 --> 00:30:29.777
You know and actually arriving at a point in my life now where there is that reframe of mother earth existing with father sky you know the divine.
362
00:30:32.057 --> 00:30:34.758
I felt I've been very much able to receive that.
363
00:30:35.478 --> 00:30:57.127
deep love because before it was triggering because of the language because you know women are unfortunately left out of a lot of mainstream narratives and and language so yeah it's where language can scifle us until we have an experiential feeling perhaps yeah you know
364
00:30:57.727 --> 00:31:04.797
Yeah, I have various friends, female friends, who said the same, and I can well imagine, like, you know.
365
00:31:06.600 --> 00:31:08.102
So I totally respect that.
366
00:31:08.382 --> 00:31:13.430
Yeah, I'm grateful to have kind of moved past it, but it almost felt like the language was holding up the patriarchy.
367
00:31:14.250 --> 00:31:18.933
And almost putting the concept of God within that because it's like, well, where is the woman?
368
00:31:18.973 --> 00:31:23.795
You know, this is before I developed a relationship with the earth and could integrate the two.
369
00:31:23.835 --> 00:31:25.776
And it's interesting, this idea of duality.
370
00:31:25.796 --> 00:31:26.617
Yeah.
371
00:31:26.757 --> 00:31:32.400
I wonder how, as a man, as Nick Mulvey in the world, you know, how...
372
00:31:33.652 --> 00:31:38.216
are you relating to this word man and masculinity?
373
00:31:38.296 --> 00:31:43.120
Because there's a lot of searching out there right now for what that means.
374
00:31:43.740 --> 00:31:46.663
And I'd like to hear your perspective on what that means.
375
00:31:47.463 --> 00:31:47.784
Mm.
376
00:31:49.365 --> 00:31:49.545
Mm.
377
00:31:51.026 --> 00:31:51.427
Well...
378
00:31:53.843 --> 00:32:05.035
I have this kind of hunch that Jesus can play a real role in us understanding the masculine.
379
00:32:06.196 --> 00:32:07.697
And that's kind of new.
380
00:32:08.078 --> 00:32:13.784
So I was kind of a product of my culture in that I...
381
00:32:15.155 --> 00:32:21.644
I think I absorbed a negative, somewhere subtly a negative sort of picture of men or masculinity.
382
00:32:21.805 --> 00:32:23.687
And there'd be good reasons why.
383
00:32:23.707 --> 00:32:27.813
But I think...
384
00:32:30.588 --> 00:32:38.391
And I had a kind of... My spiritual seeking was very much, like, enamored with earth wisdoms and the sacred feminine.
385
00:32:39.852 --> 00:32:50.776
And it's been a rebalancing process of kind of integration to open up to the Father, God.
386
00:32:50.916 --> 00:32:53.537
It's not dissimilar to what you're describing, actually.
387
00:32:54.618 --> 00:32:59.940
I was wondering, you were speaking a lot about the word of God, and if there is one word...
388
00:33:00.547 --> 00:33:12.415
that you would like, that you think it would be good to come back to, to remind everyone maybe one message, maybe one single word that would be good to hear.
389
00:33:12.435 --> 00:33:14.517
Yeah, that we need it this time, perhaps.
390
00:33:15.537 --> 00:33:16.218
Hmm.
391
00:33:18.520 --> 00:33:18.900
Hmm.
392
00:33:22.963 --> 00:33:26.385
Many come to mind that, you know, it could be rest.
393
00:33:27.005 --> 00:33:27.906
Rest, okay.
394
00:33:28.767 --> 00:33:29.187
In that,
395
00:33:30.460 --> 00:33:34.741
that resting in the unhurried rhythms of his grace.
396
00:33:35.541 --> 00:33:37.482
I heard someone say once, which I loved.
397
00:33:39.782 --> 00:33:44.123
But what comes to mind is trust as well.
398
00:33:47.224 --> 00:33:58.007
It's a interesting thing to contend with, that trust means not knowing everything's gonna be okay, but knowing that everything is okay.
399
00:34:00.248 --> 00:34:03.329
when we can plainly see that everything's not okay, you know?
400
00:34:03.349 --> 00:34:14.731
Like, it's kind of language here is affronting us with the fact that there's many levels to reality in any given moment.
401
00:34:15.451 --> 00:34:22.592
And what's true on one level might not be true on another level simultaneously.
402
00:34:22.632 --> 00:34:24.312
So, I mean, I guess you call that a paradox.
403
00:34:25.093 --> 00:34:26.873
So it's a paradox that...
404
00:34:28.763 --> 00:34:32.805
everything's not okay and we live, we have things to attend to.
405
00:34:32.925 --> 00:34:38.228
We've got like mouths to feed and, you know, and, or, and more dramatic.
406
00:34:38.248 --> 00:34:40.870
There's a lot of things that are not okay in this age.
407
00:34:41.390 --> 00:34:57.499
And at the same time, can we contend with an idea that, that, um, that yeah, things are unfolding, uh, you know, that God is present through all and that they're unfolding for our,
408
00:34:59.415 --> 00:35:03.537
for his plans and aims.
409
00:35:03.597 --> 00:35:08.780
And that level of trust is where we can source ourself from.
410
00:35:09.841 --> 00:35:12.122
The trust is not knowing everything's going to be okay.
411
00:35:12.142 --> 00:35:14.503
It's knowing that everything is okay.
412
00:35:16.104 --> 00:35:20.166
I find that one really meaningful for me.
413
00:35:21.524 --> 00:35:27.269
Yeah, it makes me think of the word ponderance, which I heard from Alison Armstrong.
414
00:35:27.289 --> 00:35:28.950
Do you know Alison Armstrong?
415
00:35:28.970 --> 00:35:29.931
I'm not sure I do.
416
00:35:30.331 --> 00:35:32.113
I think you'd enjoy her work.
417
00:35:32.173 --> 00:35:37.417
She wrote a book called The Queen's Code, and her whole thing is about bringing heaven on earth.
418
00:35:38.517 --> 00:36:01.785
through helping men and women relate to each other understand each other and she talks about ponderance when enough hearts on the planet open themselves up to love there will be a shift and we won't see it in the day-to-day of you know the traffic no longer being there or everyone putting down their their guns but ponderance is
419
00:36:02.773 --> 00:36:03.254
Yeah.
420
00:36:03.334 --> 00:36:05.936
So, ponderance, how is that used in that?
421
00:36:06.676 --> 00:36:08.318
I need to do some research myself.
422
00:36:08.478 --> 00:36:09.519
It just came to me.
423
00:36:09.539 --> 00:36:13.402
She talks about the ponderance of that moment happening.
424
00:36:13.482 --> 00:36:13.982
Oh, beautiful.
425
00:36:14.002 --> 00:36:14.903
To ponder, right.
426
00:36:14.923 --> 00:36:15.904
I think that is.
427
00:36:16.104 --> 00:36:16.545
Yeah.
428
00:36:16.645 --> 00:36:16.865
Beautiful.
429
00:36:16.885 --> 00:36:19.787
So, it's like by us moving towards that trust.
430
00:36:19.807 --> 00:36:21.289
Yes, you bring heaven down.
431
00:36:21.329 --> 00:36:22.530
You bring heaven to earth.
432
00:36:22.630 --> 00:36:23.010
Wow.
433
00:36:23.751 --> 00:36:25.892
It really stuck with me when I heard that.
434
00:36:25.932 --> 00:36:26.052
Yeah.
435
00:36:26.953 --> 00:36:33.595
Because of how, you know, capturing fear and doubt and all of those things are.
436
00:36:33.615 --> 00:36:36.196
I wonder, we talked about intentionality with language.
437
00:36:38.237 --> 00:36:41.778
Is there a word you'd like to bring back, intentionality and meaning to?
438
00:36:42.178 --> 00:36:46.239
A word that is overused or has lost its richness?
439
00:36:50.161 --> 00:36:51.061
That's a great question.
440
00:36:52.424 --> 00:36:55.388
And I released a song last year called Radical Tenderness.
441
00:36:55.448 --> 00:36:56.509
Yeah, great song.
442
00:36:56.950 --> 00:36:58.252
And as I was releasing that,
443
00:36:59.672 --> 00:37:02.654
I was kind of obviously living those words quite a lot.
444
00:37:02.694 --> 00:37:12.419
Like, you know, I was performing the song a lot or like in all the things you do, like with the music videos or whatever, there's every email, you know, I was seeing that word a lot, radical tenderness.
445
00:37:12.840 --> 00:37:23.245
I was thinking about that pattern of language and radical honesty or radical whatever, radical openness.
446
00:37:24.126 --> 00:37:27.768
And I was thinking actually like radical tenderness is,
447
00:37:30.078 --> 00:37:34.822
Or radical honesty just means, like, actual tenderness and actual honesty.
448
00:37:34.862 --> 00:37:47.933
So it speaks more to the fact that we live in an age where there's such a kind of, there's such a volume of words and rhetoric, and we are fatigued often by that.
449
00:37:48.213 --> 00:37:57.822
That if I really mean, like, honesty, I have to call it radical to make it cut through so that you know that what I really mean is the thing, you know.
450
00:37:58.920 --> 00:38:00.164
So radical tenderness.
451
00:38:03.935 --> 00:38:06.403
But yeah, I think maybe that.
452
00:38:09.964 --> 00:38:13.445
A word to bring back that is being misused.
453
00:38:14.165 --> 00:38:16.085
Or diluted by overuse.
454
00:38:16.145 --> 00:38:18.066
As you say, there's so many words.
455
00:38:18.106 --> 00:38:23.687
I think the marketing companies have a lot to take responsibility for.
456
00:38:23.707 --> 00:38:26.468
I have a word that I don't hear enough, which is kukuruku.
457
00:38:26.928 --> 00:38:27.388
Okay.
458
00:38:27.588 --> 00:38:28.748
Yes, and I was wondering.
459
00:38:28.848 --> 00:38:29.229
Yeah.
460
00:38:29.409 --> 00:38:30.189
Say it again.
461
00:38:30.369 --> 00:38:31.109
Kukuruku?
462
00:38:31.709 --> 00:38:32.609
Is that how I say it?
463
00:38:32.629 --> 00:38:33.590
Kukuruku, that's right.
464
00:38:33.670 --> 00:38:34.630
It's an incredible word.
465
00:38:34.930 --> 00:38:35.750
What does it mean?
466
00:38:35.770 --> 00:38:38.831
Well, that's one of my own, more or less.
467
00:38:41.352 --> 00:38:52.321
a kind of a play or a half remembering of the more Latin, maybe Portuguese, Cucurucuru Paloma, which is a very famous song.
468
00:38:54.372 --> 00:39:00.794
So yeah, I was playing with my song, Kukuku, I was playing, it's the setting of a D.H. Lawrence poem called The Piano.
469
00:39:01.614 --> 00:39:08.335
A very famous and well-loved and brilliant poem that I loved for years.
470
00:39:09.216 --> 00:39:14.697
A friend wrote it on an envelope for me and I had it wherever I put it off my notice board and stuff.
471
00:39:16.358 --> 00:39:23.468
And I then was strumming my guitar and I thought, oh, that is the rhythm of those words.
472
00:39:23.508 --> 00:39:24.869
It could work so well as a setting.
473
00:39:25.951 --> 00:39:33.381
And the D.H. Lawrence's poem takes the listener through a boy underneath the piano and the boom of the tingling strings.
474
00:39:34.434 --> 00:39:37.237
pressing the feet of his mother who smiles at him as she sings.
475
00:39:38.138 --> 00:39:40.340
And D.H. Lawrence's poem has a full stop.
476
00:39:40.781 --> 00:39:48.629
And I thought, wouldn't it be beautiful if it was a colon and we could now go into the voice of the mother who sings and we could hear what she's singing to him.
477
00:39:48.889 --> 00:39:51.092
So the song is like an extension of the poem?
478
00:39:51.865 --> 00:39:53.365
Yeah, I took a liberty with it.
479
00:39:53.385 --> 00:39:54.906
A liberty I might not take now, you know?
480
00:39:54.926 --> 00:39:58.927
Like I was kind of young and just like, yep, I'll just collage this and that.
481
00:39:59.267 --> 00:40:00.127
That's beautiful.
482
00:40:00.187 --> 00:40:00.727
It's bold.
483
00:40:01.267 --> 00:40:02.248
It was bold, yeah.
484
00:40:02.708 --> 00:40:09.530
I think back and I don't know if I do it now, but yeah, I was playing with the, I just heard it.
485
00:40:09.910 --> 00:40:11.250
I thought, oh, wouldn't it be wonderful?
486
00:40:11.290 --> 00:40:16.451
What I want now as a listener to this is to hear what the mother's saying.
487
00:40:18.232 --> 00:40:18.452
Yeah.
488
00:40:21.299 --> 00:40:23.642
And that's where I put in that word, yeah.
489
00:40:24.202 --> 00:40:27.226
So is there a definition or like a meaning, like for you personally?
490
00:40:27.466 --> 00:40:28.828
Like kukuruku means...
491
00:40:29.889 --> 00:40:30.490
It's a sound.
492
00:40:30.790 --> 00:40:32.252
It's just... Yeah.
493
00:40:32.712 --> 00:40:33.113
I see.
494
00:40:33.413 --> 00:40:34.334
It's not a definition.
495
00:40:34.354 --> 00:40:37.038
A bird sound.
496
00:40:37.078 --> 00:40:37.378
Yeah.
497
00:40:37.818 --> 00:40:38.639
Onomatopoeic.
498
00:40:38.900 --> 00:40:39.080
Yeah.
499
00:40:40.621 --> 00:40:42.802
Could you share any more of the words that you've made up?
500
00:40:44.663 --> 00:40:45.483
Well, Mayella.
501
00:40:45.784 --> 00:40:53.087
Mayella was a character who landed in my world, and I was, like, meeting her in many ways.
502
00:40:53.387 --> 00:40:57.049
And these things, they often come...
503
00:40:57.609 --> 00:41:02.072
In fact, these onomatopoeia ones, they almost always come just through the music of it all.
504
00:41:02.112 --> 00:41:08.815
So I'm writing a song, and I've got guitar pattern, and that guitar pattern will...
505
00:41:09.315 --> 00:41:28.113
naturally suggest to me a kind of melody uh shape or phrase and and that thing starts to elicit sort of words and and then i might just leave it as a melody sound sometimes so i started singing oh my ell and my love it's a song that became called we are never apart
506
00:41:29.230 --> 00:41:30.951
Oh, Mayella, my love, can you hear?
507
00:41:31.191 --> 00:41:38.034
And I then used the name Mayella as well as the chorus of another song called Mayella.
508
00:41:38.234 --> 00:41:44.838
So it was appearing a few times as this kind of female presence in my songs there.
509
00:41:44.858 --> 00:41:51.261
And then I looked up the name and it turns out it is a name and it means a girl whose smile lights up the room.
510
00:41:51.981 --> 00:41:52.421
Wow.
511
00:41:52.501 --> 00:41:53.542
I was really pleased with that.
512
00:41:54.182 --> 00:41:55.543
Oh, what a gift.
513
00:41:56.012 --> 00:41:58.094
And you didn't know that when you... No, no.
514
00:41:58.214 --> 00:41:59.395
When the word came to you?
515
00:41:59.435 --> 00:41:59.755
No.
516
00:42:00.255 --> 00:42:01.516
So those things happen.
517
00:42:01.676 --> 00:42:02.377
That's special.
518
00:42:03.298 --> 00:42:04.639
There's others as well, I'm sure.
519
00:42:04.679 --> 00:42:09.262
There's a...
520
00:42:09.322 --> 00:42:11.044
There'll be more somewhere, but yeah.
521
00:42:15.887 --> 00:42:24.134
You didn't get to the answer on a word.
522
00:42:24.194 --> 00:42:25.215
It's a great question.
523
00:42:27.973 --> 00:42:32.917
There are definitely answers, lots of words like that.
524
00:42:34.378 --> 00:42:39.622
I think that might be my answer, actually, but I've been a part of the dilution in this...
525
00:42:42.379 --> 00:43:02.385
needing to preface a word with with the word radical in order for us to just understand no that's the word i mean yeah i mean like if you're going to be radically punctual that just means being on time yeah but it has to be or radically honest just means i just thought about it's like radical honesty is just honesty
526
00:43:03.933 --> 00:43:11.838
But it's by putting radical in front of honesty or tenderness, it names or speaks to the fact that it is not common and it is not true.
527
00:43:12.298 --> 00:43:12.578
Yes.
528
00:43:12.698 --> 00:43:17.061
Because for it to be radical, it somehow, what does radical mean?
529
00:43:17.081 --> 00:43:19.122
I mean, it means it's out of the ordinary.
530
00:43:19.462 --> 00:43:21.463
It's unshakable.
531
00:43:22.384 --> 00:43:22.784
Right.
532
00:43:25.236 --> 00:43:26.477
Radical is interesting, isn't it?
533
00:43:26.577 --> 00:43:27.537
Yeah, radical.
534
00:43:27.557 --> 00:43:28.457
What's it doing there?
535
00:43:28.937 --> 00:43:30.017
What's it doing there?
536
00:43:30.097 --> 00:43:33.118
But also the radicalisation of young minds.
537
00:43:33.198 --> 00:43:36.659
It's a word that in different contexts... Yeah, it means almost...
538
00:43:36.679 --> 00:43:42.540
It means... An intensification or a kind of a...
539
00:43:42.920 --> 00:43:47.522
Almost like... Amplifies it.
540
00:43:47.762 --> 00:43:48.102
Yeah.
541
00:43:48.142 --> 00:43:49.082
Whatever comes next.
542
00:43:49.390 --> 00:44:17.458
yeah puts like a spotlight on the next word right yeah what would you make radical what would I make radical napping yeah great I like that he's passionate about napping and it's quite amazing you're very skilled at it I think it's I hope that in the future it will be yeah more common that people choose to close their eyes after lunch in this part of the world because they do it in Italy you're right Greece I guess yeah
543
00:44:18.308 --> 00:44:22.432
Because in my world, what I get to see, I don't know, do you nap sometimes?
544
00:44:23.413 --> 00:44:27.938
I have great admiration for that.
545
00:44:27.958 --> 00:44:30.261
I don't nap as much as I'd like.
546
00:44:30.401 --> 00:44:31.862
I think it's something I'd really like.
547
00:44:31.882 --> 00:44:34.245
I think I could benefit from radical napping.
548
00:44:35.987 --> 00:44:36.387
What about you?
549
00:44:36.427 --> 00:44:37.388
What are you going to be radical about?
550
00:44:37.408 --> 00:44:37.809
What about you?
551
00:44:39.186 --> 00:44:42.727
I think for me it's like radical love is my inquiry right now.
552
00:44:42.807 --> 00:44:43.388
Radical love.
553
00:44:43.688 --> 00:44:44.228
Yeah.
554
00:44:44.748 --> 00:44:55.572
Like love without wavering and love that is unshakable, you know, in every area and sphere of this experience of being Mabel, you know.
555
00:44:56.093 --> 00:44:59.094
Because radical love is like, it's not easy.
556
00:44:59.114 --> 00:45:06.917
It's not easy, you know, for me at this time because there's a lot that closes the heart and you kind of don't even know it's happening.
557
00:45:07.157 --> 00:45:07.497
Yeah.
558
00:45:08.217 --> 00:45:10.238
And so, yeah, radical love.
559
00:45:11.619 --> 00:45:12.599
Yeah, that's beautiful.
560
00:45:13.340 --> 00:45:14.560
Fill your heart with gladness.
561
00:45:16.301 --> 00:45:18.102
Shall we just start talking to each other next?
562
00:45:18.182 --> 00:45:21.644
Because there is a mountain to me.
563
00:45:21.744 --> 00:45:23.165
There is a mountain to me.
564
00:45:23.485 --> 00:45:25.846
Wait for the next one, who knows?
565
00:45:26.086 --> 00:45:26.547
Yeah.
566
00:45:26.887 --> 00:45:27.727
For the what lives.
567
00:45:28.107 --> 00:45:28.688
Exactly.
568
00:45:29.208 --> 00:45:30.249
And speaking of alive.
569
00:45:31.209 --> 00:45:31.469
What?
570
00:45:31.669 --> 00:45:32.650
Speaking of alive.
571
00:45:32.990 --> 00:45:33.270
Yes.
572
00:45:33.630 --> 00:45:36.632
What would be a word you would like to be remembered by?
573
00:45:44.948 --> 00:45:45.408
Enamoured.
574
00:45:45.428 --> 00:45:46.990
Mmm.
575
00:45:47.010 --> 00:45:47.910
Enamoured.
576
00:45:49.211 --> 00:45:53.655
By which I mean that I was enamoured with the love for God.
577
00:45:54.655 --> 00:45:58.378
Not that I was enamoured myself, that's less what I mean.
578
00:45:59.199 --> 00:46:04.282
More that he was... Enamoured.
579
00:46:04.463 --> 00:46:06.564
..was absorbed in love for God.
580
00:46:07.104 --> 00:46:07.705
Mmm.
581
00:46:07.865 --> 00:46:08.125
Yeah.
582
00:46:09.386 --> 00:46:10.447
So what a way to go out.
583
00:46:10.767 --> 00:46:11.067
Yeah.
584
00:46:11.348 --> 00:46:11.588
Yeah.
585
00:46:13.089 --> 00:46:14.890
Nick Mulvey, it's been an absolute pleasure.
586
00:46:14.910 --> 00:46:15.270
An honour.
587
00:46:15.330 --> 00:46:16.011
Thank you guys.
588
00:46:16.131 --> 00:46:16.651
Yeah.
589
00:46:16.891 --> 00:46:17.712
A true joy.
590
00:46:17.792 --> 00:46:19.433
Thank you for joining us at the WODcast.
591
00:46:19.813 --> 00:46:20.173
Pleasure.
592
00:46:21.194 --> 00:46:25.257
Thank you for joining us today with Nick Mulvey here at the WODcast.
593
00:46:25.957 --> 00:46:32.521
It's been an incredible conversation, especially how he brought words to life that I've never heard of, like kukuru kukuru.
594
00:46:32.581 --> 00:46:33.362
Kukuru kukuru.
595
00:46:33.442 --> 00:46:34.162
Kukuru kukuru.
596
00:46:34.542 --> 00:46:35.283
Kukuru kukuru.
597
00:46:35.303 --> 00:46:36.384
What stood out to you?
598
00:46:36.704 --> 00:46:38.185
I like the word voiciferous.
599
00:46:38.225 --> 00:46:38.665
Voiciferous.
600
00:46:38.685 --> 00:46:41.667
Yeah, I've never heard that word and I'm going to try to use it this week.
601
00:46:41.979 --> 00:46:44.020
Yeah, and there was another one, Solastalgia.
602
00:46:44.140 --> 00:46:46.121
Solastalgia, yeah.
603
00:46:46.481 --> 00:46:51.323
Please share with us the words that you perhaps didn't know, the words you liked the best from the episode.
604
00:46:51.804 --> 00:46:58.587
And it was just also amazing to hear his reflection on his own lyrics and how...
605
00:46:59.387 --> 00:47:03.089
in I guess one part of his song, he would go into such big questions.
606
00:47:03.309 --> 00:47:05.130
Beautiful, really beautiful.
607
00:47:05.150 --> 00:47:06.150
Very powerful reflection.
608
00:47:06.170 --> 00:47:07.551
So thank you, Nick, for joining us today.
609
00:47:07.591 --> 00:47:10.272
Thank you, everyone else, for listening.
610
00:47:10.672 --> 00:47:22.098
If you do enjoy how we connect different crafts from music to writing to business through the power of words, please support the channel by...
611
00:47:24.038 --> 00:47:24.738
Subscribing?
612
00:47:24.838 --> 00:47:25.619
That's the one, yes.
613
00:47:25.639 --> 00:47:26.119
Following?
614
00:47:26.819 --> 00:47:28.059
I almost forgot.
615
00:47:28.119 --> 00:47:29.040
What words do they say?
616
00:47:29.080 --> 00:47:30.320
I think sharing is important.
617
00:47:30.340 --> 00:47:30.600
Sharing.
618
00:47:30.620 --> 00:47:31.901
Yeah, if you can share with someone.
619
00:47:31.921 --> 00:47:33.942
Sharing with someone who you think might benefit from it.
620
00:47:33.962 --> 00:47:35.142
You know what I was just saying?
621
00:47:35.702 --> 00:47:37.303
Sharing is caring, I believe.
622
00:47:37.383 --> 00:47:38.583
Yes, sharing is caring.
623
00:47:38.603 --> 00:47:40.884
So share this episode with anyone that you think might love it.
624
00:47:41.384 --> 00:47:41.824
Wonderful.
625
00:47:41.964 --> 00:47:42.705
We'll see you next Wednesday.
626
00:47:42.725 --> 00:47:43.505
See you next Wednesday.