WEBVTT
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Hello, and welcome to the Why Humans podcast where we talk about the very human reasons people turn to AI.
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My name is Adam Dodge, and I am the founder of NTAP.
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And we are down a host today.
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Said is not with us, but as always, he's inspiring us as he travels around the world.
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And yeah, today we're talking about intelligence.
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And I think what we're really talking about is emotional intelligence, right, Sloan?
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Yes.
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So I recently had an experience.
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I heard something out in the world.
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Do tell me I reacted to it.
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It stuck with me.
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I had a whole range of like emotional responses to this, which goes into exactly what we're saying.
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So I was watching the AI doc, which came out recently.
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And if if you haven't seen it, you should.
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It's great.
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But they're interviewing Sam Altman and he said something in passing.
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He said, Your kid will never be smarter than an AI.
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And he said it so casually that he really believes this.
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He's not even challenging it when he says it.
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He's not even examining it.
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And I think it says something about how tech developers are thinking about what intelligence is, what they are including under the category of intelligence and what they are not.
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And I think when AI developers are thinking about intelligence, they're thinking about cognitive intelligence.
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It's about knowing facts, it's about processing those facts.
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It's about recognizing patterns and making decisions.
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That is one type of intelligence.
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And AI is great at that.
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It's nailed that.
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But they're not thinking about emotional intelligence.
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And I think that's because emotional intelligence in general just tends to be dismissed as a lesser form, a lower form of intelligence.
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And we at NTAP, we're all about emotions and relationships.
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And so let's uplift emotional intelligence.
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Let's talk about why it is just as important as every other type of intelligence.
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Yeah.
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I mean, it's it's pisses you off a little bit to hear that.
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And frankly, because it's like, oh, well, you're emotionally intelligent, but you're not intelligent, right?
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Like that's a narrative.
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I think that's a very male-coded narrative.
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If I'm being like, I think, as you've put it, like emotional intelligence is coded as feminine.
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And so we're just not gonna, we're not gonna focus on that.
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We're gonna focus on how you can have a bigger brain, be smarter, you know, all these types of things, but we're not gonna talk about your emotional development.
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We're not gonna talk about your relational development, which why by the way, are getting minimized.
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The development is being stunted by this, by the use of this technology.
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So it's like a double whammy.
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Not only are we not centering it and downplaying it, but we're also making the development of emotional intelligence more difficult.
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And I think that's something that we really lean into with our audiences when we're giving our talks, is we don't really talk about the critical thinking piece, right?
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Like certainly the Atlantic did a really good, and we'll put this in the show notes, did a great article on this about cognitive offloading and the resulting cognitive debt, that if we continue to short, take shortcuts with cognition, it's going to lead to cognitive debt.
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And that is not good, right?
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And we see that such a parallel with emotional intelligence and the emotional offloading that people are doing and the resulting debt.
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And I don't want to say this a lot, but like I sort of taking this position as like, are we really doing this again?
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Are we gonna look back in 10 years and be like, wow, that AI generation, like their their emotional intelligence, their ability to be self-aware, their ability to have empathy, their ability to self-regulate is like got stunted in adolescence and they were never able to develop it again because they didn't get any of the experience.
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They didn't get the requisite level of experience of actually doing those things.
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They just had AI do it, right?
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Instead of sitting with their feelings, they just asked AI to interpret a situation for them, tell them how they should feel, and then move on, or interpreting cues from a partner or things like that.
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And so, yeah, it's pretty par for the course, right?
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Like when we let a lot of male-led companies, right, le, you know, develop the most powerful technology that's ever been put in human hands before, it's going to focus on the things that they think are important and edit out the things, and this is hat tip to Said that they think are less important, like judgment being judged, right?
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Or, you know, accountability or well, whatever.
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I'll stop there, or rejection, right?
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Like you'll always be accepted by your AI chatbot, things like that.
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And so they when you start to zoom out and look at it through that lens, it's like, damn, like we are being robbed of some pretty powerfully important things to human development here.
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Well, and let's drill down on what you're saying about being able to analyze a situation that you are in.
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And if I'm having a difficult interaction with another person, like Adam, let's say you and I are getting into a disagreement.
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Yes, I am hearing the words that you are saying.
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I am looking at the larger context, the things that happened that led us into this.
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And all of that is really valuable information.
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And it's going to go into the decisions that I make moving forward.
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That's where AI can be helpful.
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You put in facts, you put in the words that the other person said to you.
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You're recognizing patterns in their behavior.
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But if you think about a human being only hearing the words that are being said by the other person and putting nothing else, no other signals, no other context into their decision making, we would think of that person as having very limited social skills because you are getting all sorts of other information from that interaction.
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And we're talking about an emotional intelligence being feminine coded.
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I have had this experience a lot of times of talking to another person, and that another person is usually a man, and I have said things to them.
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And what they do is they pick apart the logic of what I'm saying rather than focusing on the full emotional spectrum and the full emotional information that's being given to them.
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Sit with your feelings, bro.
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Sit with your feelings.
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I know, I know.
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So, like, that's what it means to be in a situation and have a lot of cognitive intelligence, but really lack emotional intelligence.
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So, how are we picking up on all of those other cues beyond just the words that are being said and the knowledge that's being transferred and the patterns in the in the situation?
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This is something that I just think about so much in the work that we're doing.
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What is the secret sauce of what the human brings into this that the AI can't?
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So, yeah, like what are all those other things in the interaction that are going to be important to the social skills and what's not being developed when we just rely on what AI can do?
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When I think about what people are missing out on when they turn to AI to just get them to the end, right?
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Um, one of the things they're also missing out on is learning from the people in their life about how they navigate emotional intelligence, right?
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You learn by seeing what others do, how others are self-aware, self-regulate, have empathy, you know, are motivated, all these different things.
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Like AI is not self-aware, right?
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AI cannot have empathy.
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So we're losing not just the ability to practice these things on our own, but we're also losing the opportunity to learn from the people in our lives because AI, it's it's not an embodied living thing.
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And so it cannot give us that sort of experience of like learning from others.
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And this connects to just a really fantastic interview that I heard with Rebecca Winthrop.
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The interview was on the podcast Your Undivided Attention, which I also just big fans, big fans of that one.
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Big fans.
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It's for this, it's from the Center for Humane Technology.
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They're just not gonna follow them immediately.
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Follow them immediately.
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They're awesome.
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But this interview was all about education and the way that AI is going to come into education.
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And Rebecca Winthrop was making this really important distinction between school as a place where kids learn and school as a place where kids are socialized.
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And an AI tutor, what can they do?
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They can give you a lot of information.
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They can help you make connections between things.
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They can assess your unique knowledge level and what you need to learn next.
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They can identify gaps in your knowledge.
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All those things are great.
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But why is it that we don't want to completely turn over the experience of learning to just AI tutors?
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Adam, exactly what you are saying, that knowledge acquisition, learning is a social experience.
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There is something that you get from being in a classroom with other kids and with human teachers because we don't just want human beings in the next generation who are like little knowledge factories.
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We want them as fully realized humans in the world who know how to be part of our society.
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And you learn that from being around an adult who can not only teach you words, but model all of that for you.
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And that's the development of social skills.
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That's the development of emotional intelligence, not just knowing things, but knowing how to be in the world, build relationships, be accountable to other people, judgment that's based in morality, not just knowing the most statistically probable outcome of your actions.
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Yeah, it's like we do not want to raise a generation of robots, right?
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Who just like are like human robots.
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Yeah, or Spock is like, oh, there's a you know, 59% chance that this will be, you know, well received by this other human, right?
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Like that's what we we we don't want.
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But I'm gonna pause here because we can really get rolling on this and be like, it's just this is terrible.
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And here we're really good at highlighting like the risks.
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And I think that's important.
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Like, that's the awareness piece, that's the knowledge of it building piece that we all need to have.
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It's like, what the heck is going on here and what is the human cost, right?
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Well, the human cost is massive, right, to this generation and to just people in general.
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But we also know that this technology is not going away.
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People are going to be using AI tutors, people are going to be, kids are going to be turning to AI for all sorts of reasons, including shortcuts that are robbing them of opportunities to develop emotional intelligence.
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So, how can we talk about this in a way that allows people to know, okay, yeah, this is a beneficial use of AI.
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I'm trained to AI here, and this is beneficial.
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It's not robbing me of emotional intelligence development and things like that.
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And when is it not a good idea, right?
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Like this is, it seems so simple.
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Like, right, if we're going to introduce this technology to the world, but especially children, they need to know what to use it for and when and when to rely on themselves, right?
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Yeah.
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And when we think about the shortcuts that you're talking about, I think that one of the real risks, and we've talked about this before, we talked about this a bit on our episode, Why Human Flirting, and what you lose when you don't make the mistake.
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I think a big risk of shortcuts is that you don't do all the things that have the outcome that AI is advising you against.
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And making mistakes is so important.
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And also you don't really know if it's going to be a mistake for you in your life in your unique situation unless you try it.
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So yeah, is are you using AI in a way that just bypasses you having a whole set of experiences that would teach you information and have you build true understanding of social interactions?
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Or are you just looking for the objectively correct answer?
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So, but to your point, what can AI add to this situation?
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What is the benefit of it?
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One thing that I think AI is fantastic at, and I've certainly used it in this way, is building up my vocabulary around different sorts of experiences.
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One thing that we think about with self-awareness is recognizing sensations in your body.
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Your body is not just a flesh bag that your brain lives in.
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Speak for yourself.
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Yeah.
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Speak for yourself, Sloan.
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You know, we think about like the brain-gut connection that you have over 500 million neurons in your gut that so much of what you know and what you feel, and honestly, your cognition comes from the rest of your body, not just your brain.
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So you have all sorts of sensations in your body giving you so much helpful information.
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But a key part of being able to interpret all that is having good language to describe it.
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And so if you just have like increased heart rate and breathing and you know, ah, like your palms start sweating, all of these things, that can just feel like chaos in your body.
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But if you learn the term sympathetic nervous system, if you learn the difference between stress and panic and excitement, if you have that language, then suddenly your own body and the signals it's giving you start to make better sense to you.
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How do you learn that?
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Books, somebody telling you, learning new things.
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So if somebody goes to Chat GBT and says, I am having an experience, let me describe what my body's doing.
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Chat GBT might be great at saying what you might be experiencing is stress, is fear, is, and then you know, and then with that information, you can go out into the world and make different choices.
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But you have to have the experience that sets off that sensation in your body.
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And then you have to be curious about that sensation, and then the new knowledge can be effective.
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But if you bypass the experience, you've missed a huge opportunity to learn.
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Yeah, which is work, right?
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And people want a shortcut.
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And so that is why I think as early as possible, we need to be giving people really practical ways that they can engage with this, that is like a positive use towards their development.
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Another thought for me is really helping people ask the question do I need an embodied experience right now, or do I need AI?
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Right.
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Like asking, like if we're talking about make, I use this term all the time, you know, like mate, give people the knowledge so they can make an informed decision kind of thing.
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But it's true.
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I think there are just some really sticky things that people can remember, right?
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Like, do I need an unbot?
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Do I need to talk to my friend about this who has gone through this?
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Sloan is so excited, she wants to jump in right now.
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Just simmer down.
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Let me get through this.
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But yeah, you know, like, I mean, I'll stop there.
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So because I know Sloan Scott wants to wants to spit fire right now on this, and I and I wanna and I want to hear it.
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But yeah, that I mean, just starting there, right?
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And it's but they need to know, like, well, what is the difference between an embodied experience and an AI experience?
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What y'all don't necessarily realize is that we are on video chat with each other, and I start like vibrating with excitement.
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What a lot of hand movements, what a bouncing around.
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She either has to go to the bathroom or she wants to say something.
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I am a very hand gestury speaker, which also AI doesn't know when I type in.
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AI can't talk with its hands.
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It's another one.
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But the thing that excited me so much when you were talking, it makes me think about taste, the development of taste, and specifically like food taste, but knowing what you like, and the only way you can figure out what you like is by trying different things.
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And so the example that came up for me, Adam, when you were talking about do I need an embodied experience or do I just need more factual information?
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I think about getting restaurant recommendations on Chat GPT, just saying, like, where do I want to go?
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Or a recipe.
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The only way that I will know whether or not I like it, whether or not something is good quality, is having had the experience of interacting with that myself.
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Otherwise, I'm just getting the statistical average of what other people might want.
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And I don't know, I would argue that taste is so important in the development of intuition, just knowing what's going to be good or not.
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It's curating a set of experiences that resonate with me as opposed to other people, knowing that I am different than all the other people in the world.
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I think that's an important component of intelligence too.
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What is not just accurate, but what is good in a in a variety of different ways.
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Yeah, knowing yourself, right?
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Knowing yourself.
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It's it's knowing yourself.
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And if you're constantly using AI, if you're constantly outsourcing that exercise to AI, then you're not going to know yourself.
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You're going to know what AI thinks, right?
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You're going to know what AI thinks is appropriate to the situation.
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That's we talk about this is a through line through a lot of our talks, right?
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Like the homogeneity that that occurs when we're constantly turning to AI for all things, it all sorts to become the same flavor, right?
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It's all vanilla.
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And we're all so different.
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So I just going back to this, like I think, well, what does it mean?
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Because I could see somebody pushing back on me.
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Like, well, what is it, like, how do I tell a 15-year-old kid who's using ChatGPD all the time to navigate like their social life?
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Like, how do we teach them to know whether they need an embodied experience or an AI experience?
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Right.
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And if they choose AI, how can they navigate that in like a like a safe way, for lack of a better?
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Because it can go, it's a slippery slope, right?
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Because AI, as we've talked about, it's not going to be like, well, why don't you, you know, I'm just a chatbot.
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Like, why don't you go talk to your friends about this, right?
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Like, I've never dated anybody in my life.
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I can't really help you with this.
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Well, I think you really should talk to some people in your lives who have relationship experience.
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Like, it's not going to do that unless you specifically prompt it to tell you that.
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And if somebody's doing that, then they're, they probably don't need our advice as much as somebody else.
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And so, like, I'm curious about this.
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Like, how do you know whether you need an embodied experience?
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Right.
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Like, do I need somebody who gets anxious, who has asked people out before, who has had to navigate hard conversations?
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Like, what was it like for them?
00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:42.960
Right.
00:19:43.119 --> 00:19:44.880
Like, how did they navigate it?
00:19:45.039 --> 00:19:46.240
What was their experience?
00:19:46.400 --> 00:19:49.279
Was their experience similar to my own, right?
00:19:49.680 --> 00:19:55.039
Because and I just don't think like AI can't give you that.
00:19:55.119 --> 00:20:09.599
So I do really like this idea of like really starting to drill down like what an embodied experience is, which you know, pre-internet, pre-AI, like everything was embodied, like, you know, you would just go to other people in one way, shape, or form.
00:20:09.759 --> 00:20:24.160
And now we have this like like this artificial um alternative that comes at a that that gets you to the answer quicker, but comes at too great a cost.
00:20:24.319 --> 00:20:29.119
So I think to you, to what you said earlier, like defining those things is really important.
00:20:29.359 --> 00:20:40.720
I think, and we use this all the time, but like, yeah, like like with empathy, for example, which is part of emotional intelligence, you you can ask it like, this happened.
00:20:40.960 --> 00:20:43.039
What might the other person be experiencing?
00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:45.039
What might the other person be thinking?
00:20:45.200 --> 00:20:49.279
To give me five ways that's impacted them that doesn't involve me, right?
00:20:49.359 --> 00:20:51.359
And doesn't involve what came up for me, right?
00:20:51.440 --> 00:21:04.000
Like there are ways to harness this superpower, right, in a way that actually I think can improve and accelerate emotional intelligence.
00:21:04.160 --> 00:21:07.279
But I have serious doubts people are using it that way.
00:21:07.759 --> 00:21:19.920
Well, uh something that's coming up for me, listening to you say that, would be ownership of language.
00:21:21.279 --> 00:21:39.839
Because when you're saying when is it valuable to go to another embodied human being who has had experiences and is rooted in the world, versus where is it good to just go to a thing that can serve up facts to me and serve up insight to me?
00:21:40.880 --> 00:21:51.359
It's when is it important for a human being who lives in this world and has and is accountable to what they say?
00:21:52.079 --> 00:21:55.599
When is it important to get the information from that person?
00:21:56.559 --> 00:21:59.599
And the the words mean something different when they're connected to.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:04.480
A human being who has a body, who has a life, who has experiences.
00:22:05.039 --> 00:22:11.839
And this is uh this article in The Atlantic called Worlds, the title is Words Without Consequences, written by Deb Roy.
00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:12.720
It's just fantastic.
00:22:12.799 --> 00:22:15.039
It really changed my thinking about all of this.
00:22:15.920 --> 00:22:24.799
But words mean like Adam, if you tell me something, the words just fundamentally mean something different than if Chat GBT said it.
00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:34.960
And to your point about how can we design this AI to do different things to help us remember though that I think, you know, just having it not refer to itself as I.
00:22:36.079 --> 00:22:45.759
I say I because I am referring to the person, Sloan Thompson, in this universe who has a unique set of experiences and my words mean something different because they are coming from me and who I am.
00:22:46.079 --> 00:22:49.759
Despite, despite just to jump in, people thinking that you're AI sometimes, Sloan.
00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:51.119
Sometimes you are a person.
00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:53.279
This is a true thing.
00:22:53.920 --> 00:22:55.519
People think that Sloan is AI.
00:22:56.640 --> 00:22:58.559
Someone asked Adam that the other day.
00:22:58.799 --> 00:23:00.240
People think I'm AI all the time.
00:23:00.319 --> 00:23:00.960
That's I don't know.
00:23:01.039 --> 00:23:03.279
Maybe I should examine that with my therapist.
00:23:03.519 --> 00:23:05.599
Why is it that people think I'm AI?
00:23:06.480 --> 00:23:14.480
But it means something different for me to have said the words that I say.
00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:45.039
And when AI refers to itself as AI, we just intuitively think, it's just subconsciously, we think that it is harnessed to all of the things that we assume about a human who says I, that it has experiences, that it has values, that it has a body, and that it has all sorts of subconscious information layered into what it's saying.
00:23:45.119 --> 00:23:45.839
And it doesn't.
00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:46.480
It doesn't.
00:23:46.640 --> 00:23:48.799
It's just, it's just a knowledge factory.
00:23:49.039 --> 00:23:56.640
So it doesn't matter that it's a person connected to a body, that all of that is layered into the meaning behind the words that are being said.
00:23:56.799 --> 00:24:11.039
And from an intelligence standpoint, from a relational, emotional intelligence standpoint, it's that ability to understand who the other person is and what they mean when they say the things that they're saying.
00:24:11.200 --> 00:24:18.079
And the fact that when Adam Dodge says something, it means something different than if Sloan Thompson or Dr.
00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:18.880
Said D.
00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:23.599
Hill says it, even if the exact same words are being said.
00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:27.599
That is emotional intelligence, being able to understand those differences.
00:24:28.480 --> 00:24:29.200
Big time.
00:24:29.440 --> 00:24:36.480
I vacillate between this being a really simple thing to grasp and an incredibly complicated thing.
00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:49.680
Because part of me, like what I was just thinking about, was like, yeah, AI can tell you everything about skydiving, but actually jumping out of the plane and doing it yourself is a very different experience that it can't prepare you for.
00:24:49.920 --> 00:24:56.079
And so I think about like self-regulation and managing stress.
00:24:56.160 --> 00:25:03.839
Like I bet AI can give you a lot of tips on how to manage stress, right?
00:25:04.079 --> 00:25:07.359
A lot of them that you can practice in your own life, right?
00:25:07.759 --> 00:25:15.920
But it is so different when you go out and learn which one works for you, talk to other people.
00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:16.960
How do you navigate?
00:25:17.119 --> 00:25:20.160
Oh, you're going through like I get stressed before exams every time.
00:25:20.240 --> 00:25:21.119
Like, what do you do?
00:25:21.279 --> 00:25:21.440
Right.
00:25:21.599 --> 00:25:25.759
Like, and so there's just it's not either or it's both and.
00:25:26.559 --> 00:25:39.440
But the both and has to to be sort of executed in a way where you are thoughtfully using AI and not just sort of passively using it.
00:25:39.839 --> 00:25:42.640
I have a perfect example of this from my own life.
00:25:42.720 --> 00:25:45.279
And you're gonna about you're about to learn something about me.
00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:46.880
Get ready, audience.
00:25:47.119 --> 00:25:47.519
Yes.
00:25:47.759 --> 00:25:49.599
So I really struggle with emails.
00:25:49.759 --> 00:25:51.759
I really struggle with responding to emails.
00:25:51.920 --> 00:25:56.400
And this is something that people use AI for all the time is getting it to write our emails.
00:25:56.720 --> 00:26:03.519
I have to recuse myself because I'm as Sloan's boss, like I have a I'm, I can't be objective to this conversation.
00:26:03.680 --> 00:26:06.960
So I'm just gonna, I'm, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna say anything.
00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:14.000
Well, one thing that I was really struggling with is I have this like psychological block to answering emails.
00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:16.640
I just put it off because I don't like to do it.
00:26:16.960 --> 00:26:22.799
And so I had to figure out because answering emails is a huge part of my job.
00:26:22.880 --> 00:26:27.599
And I want to really impress my boss, and so I want to answer emails, I've got to do it on a regular basis.
00:26:27.839 --> 00:26:39.680
So I was trying to figure out what is the source of this block and how I can come up with different strategies for being able to do this task that is difficult for me to do.
00:26:39.920 --> 00:26:47.599
And so the first thing is recognizing that it's not just laziness, because I am a hard worker.
00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:53.519
So I need to understand what is my specific psychological profile that's getting in the way here.
00:26:53.599 --> 00:26:56.799
And then how do I adjust what motivates me?
00:26:57.039 --> 00:27:07.839
So that's the emotional intelligence, recognizing myself in this situation that a lot of people have, recognizing like what are the sensations in my body that happen when I have to do this task?
00:27:08.160 --> 00:27:18.559
And then I plug in Chat GPT because I go and I describe this situation and I say, what are some strategies, like practical strategies for doing this?
00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:20.240
And it gave me really great advice.
00:27:20.400 --> 00:27:26.480
Like, okay, it's the indefinite nature of this task that I find difficult.
00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:32.720
I could answer emails over and over and over again for the rest of my life, and there are just more emails, and I hate that.
00:27:32.960 --> 00:27:40.079
So it's like, okay, great strategy is set a timer, 45 minutes, and you're gonna just answer emails for 45 minutes.
00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:41.759
Get to the most important ones first.
00:27:41.920 --> 00:27:44.640
And then at the end of 45 minutes, you are done for the day.
00:27:44.720 --> 00:27:46.880
And then tomorrow there's another 45 minutes.
00:27:47.200 --> 00:27:49.519
That makes it feel so much more accomplishable for me.
00:27:49.680 --> 00:27:52.160
Or it said, have a playlist.
00:27:52.400 --> 00:27:55.920
And every time you answer emails, you listen to this playlist.
00:27:56.720 --> 00:27:59.599
It signals to your brain, this is email time.
00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:01.599
That's been so helpful.
00:28:01.759 --> 00:28:04.160
I wouldn't have come up with those things on my own.
00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:11.359
But new information added into the situation, suddenly I understand myself better and I can do something better.
00:28:11.680 --> 00:28:20.720
But on bookending that knowledge from Chat GBT, I had to have the experience in the first place of struggling with answering to emails.
00:28:20.960 --> 00:28:27.039
And sitting and sitting with it and being really curious about what you were feeling and why this was happening to you.
00:28:27.359 --> 00:28:27.680
Right.
00:28:27.839 --> 00:28:34.160
And then on the other side, I had to implement all of that knowledge and figure out does it work for me or not?
00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:36.640
Not does it work for someone, but does it work for me?
00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:39.599
So a whole learning experience happened.
00:28:39.759 --> 00:28:49.119
I developed more intelligence, but it was a combination of facts and reality, of facts and mind-bodied experience.
00:28:49.440 --> 00:28:49.759
Yeah.
00:28:49.839 --> 00:29:07.039
Can you just touch because I think that as we get to the end here, this idea of bookending, because I think this is actually a really interesting mindset around how we use AI is human at the front, human at the end, and in the middle, it's collaboration with AI.
00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:11.519
But without the bookends, it's problematic, right?
00:29:11.839 --> 00:29:14.160
Yeah, no, I really love this framework.
00:29:14.400 --> 00:29:26.160
It's if you think about taking an action as a three-part process, the first part is you have to understand what you are doing in the first place?
00:29:26.400 --> 00:29:28.400
Why would you do it this way?
00:29:28.880 --> 00:29:31.119
Why, like thinking about dating.
00:29:31.920 --> 00:29:34.640
Why am I attracted to this sort of person?
00:29:35.279 --> 00:29:39.680
Why do I believe that a man has to make the first move?
00:29:39.920 --> 00:29:42.480
Why do I want a relationship in the first place?
00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:45.599
Why am I using this dating app as opposed to that dating app?
00:29:45.680 --> 00:29:51.680
It's all of the, it's understanding the whole situation and your place in it and your beliefs and your values.
00:29:51.839 --> 00:29:55.920
And so then you decide on the decision that you want to make.
00:29:56.079 --> 00:29:58.160
You decide on the action that you would like to take.
00:29:58.480 --> 00:30:01.759
Then you've got to figure out how to do what you're about to do.
00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:03.440
Inter AI.
00:30:03.759 --> 00:30:09.519
It's gonna give you a lot of great information, a lot of different great options, and you figure out your plan.
00:30:10.079 --> 00:30:14.240
But then human on the other end, you do it.
00:30:14.480 --> 00:30:15.440
You have to do it.
00:30:15.599 --> 00:30:19.200
Your body goes through the experience of having done it.
00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:23.759
Then you've got more information for the next time you have to make a decision or take an action.
00:30:23.920 --> 00:30:29.519
So human on either side, AI in the middle, in the processing part, in the rehearsal part.
00:30:29.599 --> 00:30:34.240
We've we've used this framework framework before: rehearsal versus replacement.
00:30:34.720 --> 00:30:42.319
Bring AI into the rehearsal, have it be your personal assistant, and then you, the human being, do it.
00:30:43.599 --> 00:30:45.680
Human beings are the bread and the sandwich.
00:30:46.160 --> 00:30:46.319
Yes.
00:30:46.559 --> 00:30:50.160
Unless I, unless I guess it's an opus face sandwich, and then it's not a pizza.
00:30:50.720 --> 00:30:51.920
My analogy falls all apart.
00:30:52.079 --> 00:30:52.880
But I think that's great.
00:30:53.039 --> 00:31:16.160
And just one thing I want to mention as we close out for the future of this, because we're talking about how can we, if we're talking about preserving and developing emotional intelligence, a lot of what we're saying here is there is this technology that is not designed to help you develop emotional intelligence unless you use it in a specific way.
00:31:16.319 --> 00:31:31.599
Because if you don't use it in a specific way, it's going to take it in a direction that we believe at NTAB is not leading towards a fulfilling like developmental experience around emotion and self-development, right?
00:31:31.759 --> 00:31:34.720
And self-development, whatever that means, but development.
00:31:34.960 --> 00:31:48.240
But I did just self-actualization, but I did just read, and this just shows you like how bonkers it is that we're using this technology and we have so little control over it.
00:31:48.319 --> 00:32:05.680
But a study I just read, which I'll put in the show notes because I can't remember off the top of my head, was basically, or not a study, but it was a new company that has raised a bunch of money, of course, that is basically allows people to fine-tune large language models that that power chatbots.
00:32:05.839 --> 00:32:27.119
So that it's, and as they described it, it's more knobs and dials and less alchemy, meaning you can't, and by alchemy, it's you can't make an adjustment to a large language model and then have it suddenly make these very speci have these very specific outcome changes, like, hey, this is a really problem, real problem.
00:32:27.200 --> 00:32:30.720
It it's just a yes man or it's sycophantic or whatever it is.
00:32:30.799 --> 00:32:38.559
It's like, oh, well, just you know, turn sycophancy down to from a you know 8.2 to a 2.6, and then that won't happen anymore.
00:32:38.640 --> 00:32:40.240
Like it doesn't work that way.
00:32:40.480 --> 00:32:47.759
It's you drop you know some herbs in a cauldron, and then hopefully like it comes out the way you you want.
00:32:47.920 --> 00:32:50.559
But it's it's really more art than science.
00:32:50.799 --> 00:33:02.240
And what they're saying is what we're the technology we're introducing to this is knobs and dials, where you actually can make changes that have specific outcomes.
00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:11.279
And I'm maybe just a nerd, but I actually think that this is really exciting because what we're trying to constantly do in our work.
00:33:11.440 --> 00:33:19.200
So, what this company's doing is introducing knobs and dials, the ability to actually make changes that alter specific outcomes.
00:33:19.359 --> 00:33:30.079
Like, hey, we want people to be able to use a model that really doesn't lead them down a shortcut path when it comes to their emotional development, for example, isn't sycophantic, right?
00:33:30.160 --> 00:33:34.400
Because what we're trying to do is like wrestle a hurricane right now with like our prompts.
00:33:34.480 --> 00:33:37.039
And it's like, hey, this thing is so powerful.
00:33:37.359 --> 00:33:41.200
And it's a freight train that's that's left the station.
00:33:41.359 --> 00:33:46.960
And the only way that you can use it in an effective way for your development is to like use it in these ways, right?
00:33:47.119 --> 00:33:48.559
To bookend it, to do these things.
00:33:48.720 --> 00:34:05.440
And so I'm really excited by the idea of technology that might actually make the technology do shift the burden away from us and put it on the AI so that we can actually, it can actually be a really beneficial use and supportive use.
00:34:05.680 --> 00:34:07.519
So my eyes are all over that.
00:34:07.599 --> 00:34:08.719
I think it's a really big deal.
00:34:08.960 --> 00:34:10.800
I hope it's not hype.
00:34:10.880 --> 00:34:12.559
It probably is, but maybe it isn't.
00:34:12.800 --> 00:34:15.760
And we will, we will definitely be monitoring that.
00:34:15.840 --> 00:34:17.199
And I hope it, I hope it works out.
00:34:17.360 --> 00:34:19.039
Anyway, thanks, Sloan.
00:34:19.519 --> 00:34:26.000
Sloan, Sloan's really the the engine behind the emotional intelligence work that we do.
00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:28.960
And so it was really excited to be in conversation with you on it.
00:34:29.280 --> 00:34:29.679
Yep.
00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:48.320
I I'm so excited to always have conversations about how can we make technology that makes us better humans, that brings us closer together, that builds up our society, rather than technology that pulls us away from each other and makes us diminished.
00:34:48.880 --> 00:34:51.679
So, very excited to talk about this with you.
00:34:52.079 --> 00:34:57.920
Sounds like a slogan from like a company like Sloan Incorporated, where we build technology that makes you a better human.
00:35:00.639 --> 00:35:04.079
Not just a smarter human, better human.
00:35:04.480 --> 00:35:04.880
That's right.
00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:06.480
Thanks for joining everybody.
00:35:06.719 --> 00:35:09.039
Uh we'll see you at the next one.
00:00:04.879 --> 00:00:11.279
Hello, and welcome to the Why Humans podcast where we talk about the very human reasons people turn to AI.
00:00:11.439 --> 00:00:14.640
My name is Adam Dodge, and I am the founder of NTAP.
00:00:15.039 --> 00:00:16.960
And we are down a host today.
00:00:17.120 --> 00:00:23.120
Said is not with us, but as always, he's inspiring us as he travels around the world.
00:00:23.359 --> 00:00:25.679
And yeah, today we're talking about intelligence.
00:00:25.760 --> 00:00:29.359
And I think what we're really talking about is emotional intelligence, right, Sloan?
00:00:29.760 --> 00:00:30.239
Yes.
00:00:30.480 --> 00:00:34.479
So I recently had an experience.
00:00:34.640 --> 00:00:36.320
I heard something out in the world.
00:00:36.719 --> 00:00:39.759
Do tell me I reacted to it.
00:00:39.920 --> 00:00:40.960
It stuck with me.
00:00:41.119 --> 00:00:47.920
I had a whole range of like emotional responses to this, which goes into exactly what we're saying.
00:00:48.159 --> 00:00:51.359
So I was watching the AI doc, which came out recently.
00:00:51.439 --> 00:00:53.119
And if if you haven't seen it, you should.
00:00:53.200 --> 00:00:53.920
It's great.
00:00:54.240 --> 00:01:00.159
But they're interviewing Sam Altman and he said something in passing.
00:01:00.399 --> 00:01:03.759
He said, Your kid will never be smarter than an AI.
00:01:04.560 --> 00:01:10.719
And he said it so casually that he really believes this.
00:01:10.959 --> 00:01:13.040
He's not even challenging it when he says it.
00:01:13.120 --> 00:01:14.560
He's not even examining it.
00:01:15.120 --> 00:01:27.599
And I think it says something about how tech developers are thinking about what intelligence is, what they are including under the category of intelligence and what they are not.
00:01:28.159 --> 00:01:35.439
And I think when AI developers are thinking about intelligence, they're thinking about cognitive intelligence.
00:01:35.840 --> 00:01:40.560
It's about knowing facts, it's about processing those facts.
00:01:40.719 --> 00:01:44.159
It's about recognizing patterns and making decisions.
00:01:44.480 --> 00:01:46.079
That is one type of intelligence.
00:01:46.239 --> 00:01:47.760
And AI is great at that.
00:01:47.920 --> 00:01:49.120
It's nailed that.
00:01:49.439 --> 00:01:52.079
But they're not thinking about emotional intelligence.
00:01:52.640 --> 00:02:01.359
And I think that's because emotional intelligence in general just tends to be dismissed as a lesser form, a lower form of intelligence.
00:02:01.519 --> 00:02:04.400
And we at NTAP, we're all about emotions and relationships.
00:02:04.480 --> 00:02:07.519
And so let's uplift emotional intelligence.
00:02:07.599 --> 00:02:12.800
Let's talk about why it is just as important as every other type of intelligence.
00:02:13.120 --> 00:02:13.280
Yeah.
00:02:13.360 --> 00:02:15.840
I mean, it's it's pisses you off a little bit to hear that.
00:02:15.919 --> 00:02:20.400
And frankly, because it's like, oh, well, you're emotionally intelligent, but you're not intelligent, right?
00:02:20.479 --> 00:02:21.840
Like that's a narrative.
00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:24.319
I think that's a very male-coded narrative.
00:02:24.400 --> 00:02:29.520
If I'm being like, I think, as you've put it, like emotional intelligence is coded as feminine.
00:02:29.680 --> 00:02:31.919
And so we're just not gonna, we're not gonna focus on that.
00:02:32.080 --> 00:02:39.039
We're gonna focus on how you can have a bigger brain, be smarter, you know, all these types of things, but we're not gonna talk about your emotional development.
00:02:39.120 --> 00:02:45.360
We're not gonna talk about your relational development, which why by the way, are getting minimized.
00:02:45.520 --> 00:02:50.000
The development is being stunted by this, by the use of this technology.
00:02:50.159 --> 00:02:51.360
So it's like a double whammy.
00:02:51.520 --> 00:02:58.000
Not only are we not centering it and downplaying it, but we're also making the development of emotional intelligence more difficult.
00:02:58.080 --> 00:03:05.599
And I think that's something that we really lean into with our audiences when we're giving our talks, is we don't really talk about the critical thinking piece, right?
00:03:05.759 --> 00:03:21.120
Like certainly the Atlantic did a really good, and we'll put this in the show notes, did a great article on this about cognitive offloading and the resulting cognitive debt, that if we continue to short, take shortcuts with cognition, it's going to lead to cognitive debt.
00:03:21.199 --> 00:03:22.719
And that is not good, right?
00:03:23.120 --> 00:03:34.800
And we see that such a parallel with emotional intelligence and the emotional offloading that people are doing and the resulting debt.
00:03:35.039 --> 00:03:42.479
And I don't want to say this a lot, but like I sort of taking this position as like, are we really doing this again?
00:03:42.639 --> 00:04:01.680
Are we gonna look back in 10 years and be like, wow, that AI generation, like their their emotional intelligence, their ability to be self-aware, their ability to have empathy, their ability to self-regulate is like got stunted in adolescence and they were never able to develop it again because they didn't get any of the experience.
00:04:01.840 --> 00:04:05.439
They didn't get the requisite level of experience of actually doing those things.
00:04:05.599 --> 00:04:07.759
They just had AI do it, right?
00:04:07.919 --> 00:04:18.879
Instead of sitting with their feelings, they just asked AI to interpret a situation for them, tell them how they should feel, and then move on, or interpreting cues from a partner or things like that.
00:04:19.040 --> 00:04:22.079
And so, yeah, it's pretty par for the course, right?
00:04:22.160 --> 00:04:42.319
Like when we let a lot of male-led companies, right, le, you know, develop the most powerful technology that's ever been put in human hands before, it's going to focus on the things that they think are important and edit out the things, and this is hat tip to Said that they think are less important, like judgment being judged, right?
00:04:42.560 --> 00:04:46.000
Or, you know, accountability or well, whatever.
00:04:46.079 --> 00:04:47.680
I'll stop there, or rejection, right?
00:04:47.759 --> 00:04:50.800
Like you'll always be accepted by your AI chatbot, things like that.
00:04:50.879 --> 00:05:01.519
And so they when you start to zoom out and look at it through that lens, it's like, damn, like we are being robbed of some pretty powerfully important things to human development here.
00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:08.480
Well, and let's drill down on what you're saying about being able to analyze a situation that you are in.
00:05:08.879 --> 00:05:15.279
And if I'm having a difficult interaction with another person, like Adam, let's say you and I are getting into a disagreement.
00:05:15.759 --> 00:05:19.600
Yes, I am hearing the words that you are saying.
00:05:19.839 --> 00:05:25.759
I am looking at the larger context, the things that happened that led us into this.
00:05:26.079 --> 00:05:28.639
And all of that is really valuable information.
00:05:29.120 --> 00:05:32.160
And it's going to go into the decisions that I make moving forward.
00:05:32.720 --> 00:05:35.279
That's where AI can be helpful.
00:05:35.600 --> 00:05:39.360
You put in facts, you put in the words that the other person said to you.
00:05:39.519 --> 00:05:42.240
You're recognizing patterns in their behavior.
00:05:42.720 --> 00:06:04.480
But if you think about a human being only hearing the words that are being said by the other person and putting nothing else, no other signals, no other context into their decision making, we would think of that person as having very limited social skills because you are getting all sorts of other information from that interaction.
00:06:04.720 --> 00:06:08.959
And we're talking about an emotional intelligence being feminine coded.
00:06:09.120 --> 00:06:16.800
I have had this experience a lot of times of talking to another person, and that another person is usually a man, and I have said things to them.
00:06:17.120 --> 00:06:28.160
And what they do is they pick apart the logic of what I'm saying rather than focusing on the full emotional spectrum and the full emotional information that's being given to them.
00:06:28.560 --> 00:06:29.759
Sit with your feelings, bro.
00:06:29.920 --> 00:06:30.639
Sit with your feelings.
00:06:30.800 --> 00:06:31.360
I know, I know.
00:06:31.519 --> 00:06:40.319
So, like, that's what it means to be in a situation and have a lot of cognitive intelligence, but really lack emotional intelligence.
00:06:40.879 --> 00:06:54.079
So, how are we picking up on all of those other cues beyond just the words that are being said and the knowledge that's being transferred and the patterns in the in the situation?
00:06:54.399 --> 00:06:57.360
This is something that I just think about so much in the work that we're doing.
00:06:57.600 --> 00:07:03.040
What is the secret sauce of what the human brings into this that the AI can't?
00:07:03.199 --> 00:07:14.399
So, yeah, like what are all those other things in the interaction that are going to be important to the social skills and what's not being developed when we just rely on what AI can do?
00:07:14.720 --> 00:07:20.240
When I think about what people are missing out on when they turn to AI to just get them to the end, right?
00:07:20.319 --> 00:07:29.040
Um, one of the things they're also missing out on is learning from the people in their life about how they navigate emotional intelligence, right?
00:07:29.120 --> 00:07:39.759
You learn by seeing what others do, how others are self-aware, self-regulate, have empathy, you know, are motivated, all these different things.
00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:42.000
Like AI is not self-aware, right?
00:07:42.240 --> 00:07:43.839
AI cannot have empathy.
00:07:44.079 --> 00:07:58.240
So we're losing not just the ability to practice these things on our own, but we're also losing the opportunity to learn from the people in our lives because AI, it's it's not an embodied living thing.
00:07:58.319 --> 00:08:05.199
And so it cannot give us that sort of experience of like learning from others.
00:08:05.680 --> 00:08:12.000
And this connects to just a really fantastic interview that I heard with Rebecca Winthrop.
00:08:12.240 --> 00:08:18.399
The interview was on the podcast Your Undivided Attention, which I also just big fans, big fans of that one.
00:08:18.720 --> 00:08:19.279
Big fans.
00:08:19.920 --> 00:08:22.240
It's for this, it's from the Center for Humane Technology.
00:08:22.319 --> 00:08:24.399
They're just not gonna follow them immediately.
00:08:24.560 --> 00:08:25.360
Follow them immediately.
00:08:25.519 --> 00:08:26.160
They're awesome.
00:08:26.639 --> 00:08:33.919
But this interview was all about education and the way that AI is going to come into education.
00:08:34.240 --> 00:08:46.720
And Rebecca Winthrop was making this really important distinction between school as a place where kids learn and school as a place where kids are socialized.
00:08:47.120 --> 00:08:50.159
And an AI tutor, what can they do?
00:08:50.320 --> 00:08:52.399
They can give you a lot of information.
00:08:52.559 --> 00:08:54.960
They can help you make connections between things.
00:08:55.120 --> 00:08:59.279
They can assess your unique knowledge level and what you need to learn next.
00:08:59.440 --> 00:09:01.360
They can identify gaps in your knowledge.
00:09:01.440 --> 00:09:02.720
All those things are great.
00:09:03.039 --> 00:09:10.879
But why is it that we don't want to completely turn over the experience of learning to just AI tutors?
00:09:11.279 --> 00:09:16.720
Adam, exactly what you are saying, that knowledge acquisition, learning is a social experience.
00:09:16.879 --> 00:09:27.360
There is something that you get from being in a classroom with other kids and with human teachers because we don't just want human beings in the next generation who are like little knowledge factories.
00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:34.480
We want them as fully realized humans in the world who know how to be part of our society.
00:09:35.279 --> 00:09:43.120
And you learn that from being around an adult who can not only teach you words, but model all of that for you.
00:09:43.759 --> 00:09:46.080
And that's the development of social skills.
00:09:46.240 --> 00:10:04.159
That's the development of emotional intelligence, not just knowing things, but knowing how to be in the world, build relationships, be accountable to other people, judgment that's based in morality, not just knowing the most statistically probable outcome of your actions.
00:10:04.720 --> 00:10:08.320
Yeah, it's like we do not want to raise a generation of robots, right?
00:10:08.399 --> 00:10:11.120
Who just like are like human robots.
00:10:11.279 --> 00:10:18.879
Yeah, or Spock is like, oh, there's a you know, 59% chance that this will be, you know, well received by this other human, right?
00:10:18.960 --> 00:10:21.519
Like that's what we we we don't want.
00:10:21.679 --> 00:10:27.679
But I'm gonna pause here because we can really get rolling on this and be like, it's just this is terrible.
00:10:27.840 --> 00:10:30.639
And here we're really good at highlighting like the risks.
00:10:30.720 --> 00:10:31.679
And I think that's important.
00:10:31.759 --> 00:10:35.440
Like, that's the awareness piece, that's the knowledge of it building piece that we all need to have.
00:10:35.519 --> 00:10:38.720
It's like, what the heck is going on here and what is the human cost, right?
00:10:38.879 --> 00:10:43.919
Well, the human cost is massive, right, to this generation and to just people in general.
00:10:44.159 --> 00:10:46.720
But we also know that this technology is not going away.
00:10:46.879 --> 00:11:04.320
People are going to be using AI tutors, people are going to be, kids are going to be turning to AI for all sorts of reasons, including shortcuts that are robbing them of opportunities to develop emotional intelligence.
00:11:04.480 --> 00:11:13.279
So, how can we talk about this in a way that allows people to know, okay, yeah, this is a beneficial use of AI.
00:11:13.360 --> 00:11:16.159
I'm trained to AI here, and this is beneficial.
00:11:16.399 --> 00:11:22.080
It's not robbing me of emotional intelligence development and things like that.
00:11:22.799 --> 00:11:25.519
And when is it not a good idea, right?
00:11:25.600 --> 00:11:27.360
Like this is, it seems so simple.
00:11:27.519 --> 00:11:39.679
Like, right, if we're going to introduce this technology to the world, but especially children, they need to know what to use it for and when and when to rely on themselves, right?
00:11:40.159 --> 00:11:40.799
Yeah.
00:11:41.120 --> 00:11:56.320
And when we think about the shortcuts that you're talking about, I think that one of the real risks, and we've talked about this before, we talked about this a bit on our episode, Why Human Flirting, and what you lose when you don't make the mistake.
00:11:56.559 --> 00:12:08.720
I think a big risk of shortcuts is that you don't do all the things that have the outcome that AI is advising you against.
00:12:09.039 --> 00:12:10.960
And making mistakes is so important.
00:12:11.120 --> 00:12:17.919
And also you don't really know if it's going to be a mistake for you in your life in your unique situation unless you try it.
00:12:18.639 --> 00:12:33.600
So yeah, is are you using AI in a way that just bypasses you having a whole set of experiences that would teach you information and have you build true understanding of social interactions?
00:12:34.159 --> 00:12:37.039
Or are you just looking for the objectively correct answer?
00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:40.960
So, but to your point, what can AI add to this situation?
00:12:41.120 --> 00:12:42.720
What is the benefit of it?
00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:52.480
One thing that I think AI is fantastic at, and I've certainly used it in this way, is building up my vocabulary around different sorts of experiences.
00:12:53.440 --> 00:12:59.039
One thing that we think about with self-awareness is recognizing sensations in your body.
00:12:59.440 --> 00:13:03.440
Your body is not just a flesh bag that your brain lives in.
00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:04.799
Speak for yourself.
00:13:05.360 --> 00:13:05.519
Yeah.
00:13:05.919 --> 00:13:06.960
Speak for yourself, Sloan.
00:13:07.200 --> 00:13:20.960
You know, we think about like the brain-gut connection that you have over 500 million neurons in your gut that so much of what you know and what you feel, and honestly, your cognition comes from the rest of your body, not just your brain.
00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:27.039
So you have all sorts of sensations in your body giving you so much helpful information.
00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:35.840
But a key part of being able to interpret all that is having good language to describe it.
00:13:36.559 --> 00:13:49.519
And so if you just have like increased heart rate and breathing and you know, ah, like your palms start sweating, all of these things, that can just feel like chaos in your body.
00:13:50.000 --> 00:14:05.200
But if you learn the term sympathetic nervous system, if you learn the difference between stress and panic and excitement, if you have that language, then suddenly your own body and the signals it's giving you start to make better sense to you.
00:14:06.159 --> 00:14:07.679
How do you learn that?
00:14:07.919 --> 00:14:10.320
Books, somebody telling you, learning new things.
00:14:10.480 --> 00:14:16.399
So if somebody goes to Chat GBT and says, I am having an experience, let me describe what my body's doing.
00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:28.799
Chat GBT might be great at saying what you might be experiencing is stress, is fear, is, and then you know, and then with that information, you can go out into the world and make different choices.
00:14:29.200 --> 00:14:35.200
But you have to have the experience that sets off that sensation in your body.
00:14:35.279 --> 00:14:41.039
And then you have to be curious about that sensation, and then the new knowledge can be effective.
00:14:41.360 --> 00:14:47.279
But if you bypass the experience, you've missed a huge opportunity to learn.
00:14:47.600 --> 00:14:49.200
Yeah, which is work, right?
00:14:49.360 --> 00:14:50.639
And people want a shortcut.
00:14:50.960 --> 00:15:05.679
And so that is why I think as early as possible, we need to be giving people really practical ways that they can engage with this, that is like a positive use towards their development.
00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:17.840
Another thought for me is really helping people ask the question do I need an embodied experience right now, or do I need AI?
00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:18.320
Right.
00:15:18.399 --> 00:15:27.679
Like asking, like if we're talking about make, I use this term all the time, you know, like mate, give people the knowledge so they can make an informed decision kind of thing.
00:15:27.840 --> 00:15:28.799
But it's true.
00:15:28.960 --> 00:15:35.519
I think there are just some really sticky things that people can remember, right?
00:15:35.600 --> 00:15:36.720
Like, do I need an unbot?
00:15:36.960 --> 00:15:40.159
Do I need to talk to my friend about this who has gone through this?
00:15:40.320 --> 00:15:42.559
Sloan is so excited, she wants to jump in right now.
00:15:42.720 --> 00:15:43.759
Just simmer down.
00:15:43.919 --> 00:15:45.200
Let me get through this.
00:15:46.399 --> 00:15:48.720
But yeah, you know, like, I mean, I'll stop there.
00:15:48.799 --> 00:15:54.480
So because I know Sloan Scott wants to wants to spit fire right now on this, and I and I wanna and I want to hear it.
00:15:54.559 --> 00:15:56.879
But yeah, that I mean, just starting there, right?
00:15:57.039 --> 00:16:03.840
And it's but they need to know, like, well, what is the difference between an embodied experience and an AI experience?
00:16:04.559 --> 00:16:12.320
What y'all don't necessarily realize is that we are on video chat with each other, and I start like vibrating with excitement.
00:16:12.879 --> 00:16:15.279
What a lot of hand movements, what a bouncing around.
00:16:15.360 --> 00:16:18.240
She either has to go to the bathroom or she wants to say something.
00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:25.679
I am a very hand gestury speaker, which also AI doesn't know when I type in.
00:16:26.240 --> 00:16:27.759
AI can't talk with its hands.
00:16:27.919 --> 00:16:28.399
It's another one.
00:16:30.399 --> 00:16:49.600
But the thing that excited me so much when you were talking, it makes me think about taste, the development of taste, and specifically like food taste, but knowing what you like, and the only way you can figure out what you like is by trying different things.
00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:58.000
And so the example that came up for me, Adam, when you were talking about do I need an embodied experience or do I just need more factual information?
00:16:58.240 --> 00:17:03.600
I think about getting restaurant recommendations on Chat GPT, just saying, like, where do I want to go?
00:17:03.759 --> 00:17:05.119
Or a recipe.
00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:14.319
The only way that I will know whether or not I like it, whether or not something is good quality, is having had the experience of interacting with that myself.
00:17:14.559 --> 00:17:19.119
Otherwise, I'm just getting the statistical average of what other people might want.
00:17:19.279 --> 00:17:27.839
And I don't know, I would argue that taste is so important in the development of intuition, just knowing what's going to be good or not.
00:17:28.240 --> 00:17:39.039
It's curating a set of experiences that resonate with me as opposed to other people, knowing that I am different than all the other people in the world.
00:17:39.279 --> 00:17:42.240
I think that's an important component of intelligence too.
00:17:42.559 --> 00:17:49.119
What is not just accurate, but what is good in a in a variety of different ways.
00:17:49.519 --> 00:17:50.880
Yeah, knowing yourself, right?
00:17:51.119 --> 00:17:51.599
Knowing yourself.
00:17:51.839 --> 00:17:53.039
It's it's knowing yourself.
00:17:53.200 --> 00:18:01.599
And if you're constantly using AI, if you're constantly outsourcing that exercise to AI, then you're not going to know yourself.
00:18:01.680 --> 00:18:04.880
You're going to know what AI thinks, right?
00:18:05.119 --> 00:18:07.680
You're going to know what AI thinks is appropriate to the situation.
00:18:07.839 --> 00:18:11.119
That's we talk about this is a through line through a lot of our talks, right?
00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:21.599
Like the homogeneity that that occurs when we're constantly turning to AI for all things, it all sorts to become the same flavor, right?
00:18:21.680 --> 00:18:22.720
It's all vanilla.
00:18:23.039 --> 00:18:25.839
And we're all so different.
00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:30.079
So I just going back to this, like I think, well, what does it mean?
00:18:30.240 --> 00:18:31.599
Because I could see somebody pushing back on me.
00:18:31.680 --> 00:18:38.640
Like, well, what is it, like, how do I tell a 15-year-old kid who's using ChatGPD all the time to navigate like their social life?
00:18:38.799 --> 00:18:47.279
Like, how do we teach them to know whether they need an embodied experience or an AI experience?
00:18:47.440 --> 00:18:47.599
Right.
00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:54.240
And if they choose AI, how can they navigate that in like a like a safe way, for lack of a better?
00:18:54.400 --> 00:18:56.640
Because it can go, it's a slippery slope, right?
00:18:56.720 --> 00:19:01.359
Because AI, as we've talked about, it's not going to be like, well, why don't you, you know, I'm just a chatbot.
00:19:01.440 --> 00:19:03.519
Like, why don't you go talk to your friends about this, right?
00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:05.519
Like, I've never dated anybody in my life.
00:19:05.759 --> 00:19:07.519
I can't really help you with this.
00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:12.240
Well, I think you really should talk to some people in your lives who have relationship experience.
00:19:12.400 --> 00:19:16.880
Like, it's not going to do that unless you specifically prompt it to tell you that.
00:19:17.039 --> 00:19:23.119
And if somebody's doing that, then they're, they probably don't need our advice as much as somebody else.
00:19:23.279 --> 00:19:26.559
And so, like, I'm curious about this.
00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:30.160
Like, how do you know whether you need an embodied experience?
00:19:30.319 --> 00:19:30.480
Right.
00:19:30.559 --> 00:19:40.480
Like, do I need somebody who gets anxious, who has asked people out before, who has had to navigate hard conversations?
00:19:40.640 --> 00:19:42.559
Like, what was it like for them?
00:19:42.720 --> 00:19:42.960
Right.
00:19:43.119 --> 00:19:44.880
Like, how did they navigate it?
00:19:45.039 --> 00:19:46.240
What was their experience?
00:19:46.400 --> 00:19:49.279
Was their experience similar to my own, right?
00:19:49.680 --> 00:19:55.039
Because and I just don't think like AI can't give you that.
00:19:55.119 --> 00:20:09.599
So I do really like this idea of like really starting to drill down like what an embodied experience is, which you know, pre-internet, pre-AI, like everything was embodied, like, you know, you would just go to other people in one way, shape, or form.
00:20:09.759 --> 00:20:24.160
And now we have this like like this artificial um alternative that comes at a that that gets you to the answer quicker, but comes at too great a cost.
00:20:24.319 --> 00:20:29.119
So I think to you, to what you said earlier, like defining those things is really important.
00:20:29.359 --> 00:20:40.720
I think, and we use this all the time, but like, yeah, like like with empathy, for example, which is part of emotional intelligence, you you can ask it like, this happened.
00:20:40.960 --> 00:20:43.039
What might the other person be experiencing?
00:20:43.200 --> 00:20:45.039
What might the other person be thinking?
00:20:45.200 --> 00:20:49.279
To give me five ways that's impacted them that doesn't involve me, right?
00:20:49.359 --> 00:20:51.359
And doesn't involve what came up for me, right?
00:20:51.440 --> 00:21:04.000
Like there are ways to harness this superpower, right, in a way that actually I think can improve and accelerate emotional intelligence.
00:21:04.160 --> 00:21:07.279
But I have serious doubts people are using it that way.
00:21:07.759 --> 00:21:19.920
Well, uh something that's coming up for me, listening to you say that, would be ownership of language.
00:21:21.279 --> 00:21:39.839
Because when you're saying when is it valuable to go to another embodied human being who has had experiences and is rooted in the world, versus where is it good to just go to a thing that can serve up facts to me and serve up insight to me?
00:21:40.880 --> 00:21:51.359
It's when is it important for a human being who lives in this world and has and is accountable to what they say?
00:21:52.079 --> 00:21:55.599
When is it important to get the information from that person?
00:21:56.559 --> 00:21:59.599
And the the words mean something different when they're connected to.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:04.480
A human being who has a body, who has a life, who has experiences.
00:22:05.039 --> 00:22:11.839
And this is uh this article in The Atlantic called Worlds, the title is Words Without Consequences, written by Deb Roy.
00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:12.720
It's just fantastic.
00:22:12.799 --> 00:22:15.039
It really changed my thinking about all of this.
00:22:15.920 --> 00:22:24.799
But words mean like Adam, if you tell me something, the words just fundamentally mean something different than if Chat GBT said it.
00:22:25.279 --> 00:22:34.960
And to your point about how can we design this AI to do different things to help us remember though that I think, you know, just having it not refer to itself as I.
00:22:36.079 --> 00:22:45.759
I say I because I am referring to the person, Sloan Thompson, in this universe who has a unique set of experiences and my words mean something different because they are coming from me and who I am.
00:22:46.079 --> 00:22:49.759
Despite, despite just to jump in, people thinking that you're AI sometimes, Sloan.
00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:51.119
Sometimes you are a person.
00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:53.279
This is a true thing.
00:22:53.920 --> 00:22:55.519
People think that Sloan is AI.
00:22:56.640 --> 00:22:58.559
Someone asked Adam that the other day.
00:22:58.799 --> 00:23:00.240
People think I'm AI all the time.
00:23:00.319 --> 00:23:00.960
That's I don't know.
00:23:01.039 --> 00:23:03.279
Maybe I should examine that with my therapist.
00:23:03.519 --> 00:23:05.599
Why is it that people think I'm AI?
00:23:06.480 --> 00:23:14.480
But it means something different for me to have said the words that I say.
00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:45.039
And when AI refers to itself as AI, we just intuitively think, it's just subconsciously, we think that it is harnessed to all of the things that we assume about a human who says I, that it has experiences, that it has values, that it has a body, and that it has all sorts of subconscious information layered into what it's saying.
00:23:45.119 --> 00:23:45.839
And it doesn't.
00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:46.480
It doesn't.
00:23:46.640 --> 00:23:48.799
It's just, it's just a knowledge factory.
00:23:49.039 --> 00:23:56.640
So it doesn't matter that it's a person connected to a body, that all of that is layered into the meaning behind the words that are being said.
00:23:56.799 --> 00:24:11.039
And from an intelligence standpoint, from a relational, emotional intelligence standpoint, it's that ability to understand who the other person is and what they mean when they say the things that they're saying.
00:24:11.200 --> 00:24:18.079
And the fact that when Adam Dodge says something, it means something different than if Sloan Thompson or Dr.
00:24:18.240 --> 00:24:18.880
Said D.
00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:23.599
Hill says it, even if the exact same words are being said.
00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:27.599
That is emotional intelligence, being able to understand those differences.
00:24:28.480 --> 00:24:29.200
Big time.
00:24:29.440 --> 00:24:36.480
I vacillate between this being a really simple thing to grasp and an incredibly complicated thing.
00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:49.680
Because part of me, like what I was just thinking about, was like, yeah, AI can tell you everything about skydiving, but actually jumping out of the plane and doing it yourself is a very different experience that it can't prepare you for.
00:24:49.920 --> 00:24:56.079
And so I think about like self-regulation and managing stress.
00:24:56.160 --> 00:25:03.839
Like I bet AI can give you a lot of tips on how to manage stress, right?
00:25:04.079 --> 00:25:07.359
A lot of them that you can practice in your own life, right?
00:25:07.759 --> 00:25:15.920
But it is so different when you go out and learn which one works for you, talk to other people.
00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:16.960
How do you navigate?
00:25:17.119 --> 00:25:20.160
Oh, you're going through like I get stressed before exams every time.
00:25:20.240 --> 00:25:21.119
Like, what do you do?
00:25:21.279 --> 00:25:21.440
Right.
00:25:21.599 --> 00:25:25.759
Like, and so there's just it's not either or it's both and.
00:25:26.559 --> 00:25:39.440
But the both and has to to be sort of executed in a way where you are thoughtfully using AI and not just sort of passively using it.
00:25:39.839 --> 00:25:42.640
I have a perfect example of this from my own life.
00:25:42.720 --> 00:25:45.279
And you're gonna about you're about to learn something about me.
00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:46.880
Get ready, audience.
00:25:47.119 --> 00:25:47.519
Yes.
00:25:47.759 --> 00:25:49.599
So I really struggle with emails.
00:25:49.759 --> 00:25:51.759
I really struggle with responding to emails.
00:25:51.920 --> 00:25:56.400
And this is something that people use AI for all the time is getting it to write our emails.
00:25:56.720 --> 00:26:03.519
I have to recuse myself because I'm as Sloan's boss, like I have a I'm, I can't be objective to this conversation.
00:26:03.680 --> 00:26:06.960
So I'm just gonna, I'm, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna say anything.
00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:14.000
Well, one thing that I was really struggling with is I have this like psychological block to answering emails.
00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:16.640
I just put it off because I don't like to do it.
00:26:16.960 --> 00:26:22.799
And so I had to figure out because answering emails is a huge part of my job.
00:26:22.880 --> 00:26:27.599
And I want to really impress my boss, and so I want to answer emails, I've got to do it on a regular basis.
00:26:27.839 --> 00:26:39.680
So I was trying to figure out what is the source of this block and how I can come up with different strategies for being able to do this task that is difficult for me to do.
00:26:39.920 --> 00:26:47.599
And so the first thing is recognizing that it's not just laziness, because I am a hard worker.
00:26:47.759 --> 00:26:53.519
So I need to understand what is my specific psychological profile that's getting in the way here.
00:26:53.599 --> 00:26:56.799
And then how do I adjust what motivates me?
00:26:57.039 --> 00:27:07.839
So that's the emotional intelligence, recognizing myself in this situation that a lot of people have, recognizing like what are the sensations in my body that happen when I have to do this task?
00:27:08.160 --> 00:27:18.559
And then I plug in Chat GPT because I go and I describe this situation and I say, what are some strategies, like practical strategies for doing this?
00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:20.240
And it gave me really great advice.
00:27:20.400 --> 00:27:26.480
Like, okay, it's the indefinite nature of this task that I find difficult.
00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:32.720
I could answer emails over and over and over again for the rest of my life, and there are just more emails, and I hate that.
00:27:32.960 --> 00:27:40.079
So it's like, okay, great strategy is set a timer, 45 minutes, and you're gonna just answer emails for 45 minutes.
00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:41.759
Get to the most important ones first.
00:27:41.920 --> 00:27:44.640
And then at the end of 45 minutes, you are done for the day.
00:27:44.720 --> 00:27:46.880
And then tomorrow there's another 45 minutes.
00:27:47.200 --> 00:27:49.519
That makes it feel so much more accomplishable for me.
00:27:49.680 --> 00:27:52.160
Or it said, have a playlist.
00:27:52.400 --> 00:27:55.920
And every time you answer emails, you listen to this playlist.
00:27:56.720 --> 00:27:59.599
It signals to your brain, this is email time.
00:28:00.400 --> 00:28:01.599
That's been so helpful.
00:28:01.759 --> 00:28:04.160
I wouldn't have come up with those things on my own.
00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:11.359
But new information added into the situation, suddenly I understand myself better and I can do something better.
00:28:11.680 --> 00:28:20.720
But on bookending that knowledge from Chat GBT, I had to have the experience in the first place of struggling with answering to emails.
00:28:20.960 --> 00:28:27.039
And sitting and sitting with it and being really curious about what you were feeling and why this was happening to you.
00:28:27.359 --> 00:28:27.680
Right.
00:28:27.839 --> 00:28:34.160
And then on the other side, I had to implement all of that knowledge and figure out does it work for me or not?
00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:36.640
Not does it work for someone, but does it work for me?
00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:39.599
So a whole learning experience happened.
00:28:39.759 --> 00:28:49.119
I developed more intelligence, but it was a combination of facts and reality, of facts and mind-bodied experience.
00:28:49.440 --> 00:28:49.759
Yeah.
00:28:49.839 --> 00:29:07.039
Can you just touch because I think that as we get to the end here, this idea of bookending, because I think this is actually a really interesting mindset around how we use AI is human at the front, human at the end, and in the middle, it's collaboration with AI.
00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:11.519
But without the bookends, it's problematic, right?
00:29:11.839 --> 00:29:14.160
Yeah, no, I really love this framework.
00:29:14.400 --> 00:29:26.160
It's if you think about taking an action as a three-part process, the first part is you have to understand what you are doing in the first place?
00:29:26.400 --> 00:29:28.400
Why would you do it this way?
00:29:28.880 --> 00:29:31.119
Why, like thinking about dating.
00:29:31.920 --> 00:29:34.640
Why am I attracted to this sort of person?
00:29:35.279 --> 00:29:39.680
Why do I believe that a man has to make the first move?
00:29:39.920 --> 00:29:42.480
Why do I want a relationship in the first place?
00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:45.599
Why am I using this dating app as opposed to that dating app?
00:29:45.680 --> 00:29:51.680
It's all of the, it's understanding the whole situation and your place in it and your beliefs and your values.
00:29:51.839 --> 00:29:55.920
And so then you decide on the decision that you want to make.
00:29:56.079 --> 00:29:58.160
You decide on the action that you would like to take.
00:29:58.480 --> 00:30:01.759
Then you've got to figure out how to do what you're about to do.
00:30:02.480 --> 00:30:03.440
Inter AI.
00:30:03.759 --> 00:30:09.519
It's gonna give you a lot of great information, a lot of different great options, and you figure out your plan.
00:30:10.079 --> 00:30:14.240
But then human on the other end, you do it.
00:30:14.480 --> 00:30:15.440
You have to do it.
00:30:15.599 --> 00:30:19.200
Your body goes through the experience of having done it.
00:30:19.519 --> 00:30:23.759
Then you've got more information for the next time you have to make a decision or take an action.
00:30:23.920 --> 00:30:29.519
So human on either side, AI in the middle, in the processing part, in the rehearsal part.
00:30:29.599 --> 00:30:34.240
We've we've used this framework framework before: rehearsal versus replacement.
00:30:34.720 --> 00:30:42.319
Bring AI into the rehearsal, have it be your personal assistant, and then you, the human being, do it.
00:30:43.599 --> 00:30:45.680
Human beings are the bread and the sandwich.
00:30:46.160 --> 00:30:46.319
Yes.
00:30:46.559 --> 00:30:50.160
Unless I, unless I guess it's an opus face sandwich, and then it's not a pizza.
00:30:50.720 --> 00:30:51.920
My analogy falls all apart.
00:30:52.079 --> 00:30:52.880
But I think that's great.
00:30:53.039 --> 00:31:16.160
And just one thing I want to mention as we close out for the future of this, because we're talking about how can we, if we're talking about preserving and developing emotional intelligence, a lot of what we're saying here is there is this technology that is not designed to help you develop emotional intelligence unless you use it in a specific way.
00:31:16.319 --> 00:31:31.599
Because if you don't use it in a specific way, it's going to take it in a direction that we believe at NTAB is not leading towards a fulfilling like developmental experience around emotion and self-development, right?
00:31:31.759 --> 00:31:34.720
And self-development, whatever that means, but development.
00:31:34.960 --> 00:31:48.240
But I did just self-actualization, but I did just read, and this just shows you like how bonkers it is that we're using this technology and we have so little control over it.
00:31:48.319 --> 00:32:05.680
But a study I just read, which I'll put in the show notes because I can't remember off the top of my head, was basically, or not a study, but it was a new company that has raised a bunch of money, of course, that is basically allows people to fine-tune large language models that that power chatbots.
00:32:05.839 --> 00:32:27.119
So that it's, and as they described it, it's more knobs and dials and less alchemy, meaning you can't, and by alchemy, it's you can't make an adjustment to a large language model and then have it suddenly make these very speci have these very specific outcome changes, like, hey, this is a really problem, real problem.
00:32:27.200 --> 00:32:30.720
It it's just a yes man or it's sycophantic or whatever it is.
00:32:30.799 --> 00:32:38.559
It's like, oh, well, just you know, turn sycophancy down to from a you know 8.2 to a 2.6, and then that won't happen anymore.
00:32:38.640 --> 00:32:40.240
Like it doesn't work that way.
00:32:40.480 --> 00:32:47.759
It's you drop you know some herbs in a cauldron, and then hopefully like it comes out the way you you want.
00:32:47.920 --> 00:32:50.559
But it's it's really more art than science.
00:32:50.799 --> 00:33:02.240
And what they're saying is what we're the technology we're introducing to this is knobs and dials, where you actually can make changes that have specific outcomes.
00:33:02.400 --> 00:33:11.279
And I'm maybe just a nerd, but I actually think that this is really exciting because what we're trying to constantly do in our work.
00:33:11.440 --> 00:33:19.200
So, what this company's doing is introducing knobs and dials, the ability to actually make changes that alter specific outcomes.
00:33:19.359 --> 00:33:30.079
Like, hey, we want people to be able to use a model that really doesn't lead them down a shortcut path when it comes to their emotional development, for example, isn't sycophantic, right?
00:33:30.160 --> 00:33:34.400
Because what we're trying to do is like wrestle a hurricane right now with like our prompts.
00:33:34.480 --> 00:33:37.039
And it's like, hey, this thing is so powerful.
00:33:37.359 --> 00:33:41.200
And it's a freight train that's that's left the station.
00:33:41.359 --> 00:33:46.960
And the only way that you can use it in an effective way for your development is to like use it in these ways, right?
00:33:47.119 --> 00:33:48.559
To bookend it, to do these things.
00:33:48.720 --> 00:34:05.440
And so I'm really excited by the idea of technology that might actually make the technology do shift the burden away from us and put it on the AI so that we can actually, it can actually be a really beneficial use and supportive use.
00:34:05.680 --> 00:34:07.519
So my eyes are all over that.
00:34:07.599 --> 00:34:08.719
I think it's a really big deal.
00:34:08.960 --> 00:34:10.800
I hope it's not hype.
00:34:10.880 --> 00:34:12.559
It probably is, but maybe it isn't.
00:34:12.800 --> 00:34:15.760
And we will, we will definitely be monitoring that.
00:34:15.840 --> 00:34:17.199
And I hope it, I hope it works out.
00:34:17.360 --> 00:34:19.039
Anyway, thanks, Sloan.
00:34:19.519 --> 00:34:26.000
Sloan, Sloan's really the the engine behind the emotional intelligence work that we do.
00:34:26.159 --> 00:34:28.960
And so it was really excited to be in conversation with you on it.
00:34:29.280 --> 00:34:29.679
Yep.
00:34:29.760 --> 00:34:48.320
I I'm so excited to always have conversations about how can we make technology that makes us better humans, that brings us closer together, that builds up our society, rather than technology that pulls us away from each other and makes us diminished.
00:34:48.880 --> 00:34:51.679
So, very excited to talk about this with you.
00:34:52.079 --> 00:34:57.920
Sounds like a slogan from like a company like Sloan Incorporated, where we build technology that makes you a better human.
00:35:00.639 --> 00:35:04.079
Not just a smarter human, better human.
00:35:04.480 --> 00:35:04.880
That's right.
00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:06.480
Thanks for joining everybody.
00:35:06.719 --> 00:35:09.039
Uh we'll see you at the next one.
