Episode 2: Are We Really Aligned?

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Welcome to Unlocking Value.
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I'm John Howard of Partner in Garwood Growth.
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This podcast is for founders and owners of professional services businesses who are building great firms and starting to think about how to unlock the value they've created.
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You might already be preparing for investment, thinking about selling, or just beginning to weigh up your options.
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Wherever you are on that journey, this is your chance to learn from founders, investors, and advisors who've been through it before.
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Each episode gives you a behind-the-scenes look at what it's really like to go through a deal.
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The good bits, the hard bits, and what comes after.
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So if you're planning what's next for your firm and want to make clearer, better decisions, this is a show for you.
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Welcome to episode two of our six-part series.
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Today we're asking what it really means to be aligned as business founders and owners, and why that matters so much when you're thinking about doing a deal.
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We look at how groups of shareholders stay on the same page over time, how personal ambitions and business goals get reconciled, and what happens when tough decisions need to be made together.
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You'll hear from Gita Singham Willis and Jane Barrett, two of the co-founders of Cadence Innova, who sold their consulting firm to Transform UK in 2024.
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We also talked to Neil Sharp and Richard Vale, two of the co-founders of Penn Partnership, who took their firm through a successful trade sale to Wavestone in 2022.
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All four have taken their firms from lifestyle businesses to highly sought-after consultancies.
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They've navigated personal role transitions, dealt with unsolicited approaches from buyers and investors, and kept their leadership teams aligned along the way.
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They've got loads to share, and I know you're going to love this one.
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If you're new to the series, there's also a free digital guidebook that goes alongside the podcast.
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It's called Unlocking Value, and it's packed with practical advice on how to plan and prepare for investment or sale.
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You'll find a download link in the show notes.
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So let's get going with introductions from Gita, Jane, Neil, and Richard.
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Gita, if you don't mind, I'll start with you.
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Could you just give a couple of minutes on your background and what's keeping you busy, Visa's?
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That's keeping busy.
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Oh dear.
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So my name's Gita Singham Willis, one of the founding partners, along with Jane and Gary, who's not here, of Cadence Innova, which is a management consultancy, public sector service transformation.
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A lot of digital in there, but a lot of operating model policy to implementation type stuff.
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And background, briefly, engineering.
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Around factories for 10 years, around the globe, and then uh started a career in consultancy.
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I thought I might stay in one place for a bit longer.
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But um, so that was what that was where I came from.
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But we I joined a number of different consultancies along the way, met Jane and Gary through that process, and uh yes, and here we are.
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Excellent.
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Jane, you're the other half of the Cadence Nova team with us today.
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You want to do the same?
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Give us a bit of background on you.
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Yeah, sure.
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So my passion is really public services transformation, and I think we're in really interesting times with that in terms of partnerships and consortiums to really bring positive impact on society.
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Like Gita said, Gary Gita and Jane brought together Cadence and Over because we've got some shared values and ambitions in that area.
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I've done a lot of work in local government and central government, most recently generating um developing partnerships to bring real impact um on society, and we can go into that a little bit more.
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No, that's great.
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Thank you.
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We moved to the pen team, Neil.
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Could you tell us a bit about yourself and what's what's keeping you busy these days?
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Absolutely, thank you, and uh thanks for inviting me along.
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Yeah, I'm currently uh an executive coach.
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I'm just finishing a year-long training course in that, which is I think is a well-trodden path for people like myself.
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Prior to that, I I started in industry and financial services and then for the last 30 years have been involved in a number of different consulting businesses of which I've been uh an owner manager, uh either starting on my own right through to the thing that we're going to talk about today, which is Penn Partnership, where I was with Richard and we sold the business in 2022.
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Oh great, thank you.
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And Richard, around us out.
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Thank you, and thank you, John, for the invitation.
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Yeah, I'm a career consultant, I have to confess.
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When I was a boy, I joined what was then called Anderson Consulting a couple of hundred years ago, and then uh went on uh a career in that field uh over the last 30 odd years.
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So after the Big Four world, I with a couple of colleagues launched a private business called Troika.
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There's some symmetry that will follow from this.
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I ran that for 10 years and we sold it to a mid-tier consultancy from the US called Navigant, with whom I worked for about five years, and then got the urge to go private again.
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So launched another business with Neil and a few others called Penn Partnership and did that for about 10 years and sold it to a mid-tier French organization called Wavestone.
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And then having seen the initial integration through after taking a break, I'm also training to be an executive coach and I'm already up and running in that capacity and absolutely loving it.
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So that keeps me busy quite a lot.
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No, that's great.
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And from one career consultant to another, there's nothing wrong with being a career consultant.
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So as I mentioned earlier, you've all taken your businesses through successful trade sales in the last couple of years.
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And I know from speaking to you before that you did lots of work through as part of that process and keeping all your partners aligned through through through the journey.
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So just to give litters a bit of context about your businesses, I'd like to set the scene with a quick overview of both firms' stories.
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So it'd be great to hear about your firm's development and also what you kind of what the shareholder landscape was like when you founded them and also as things developed over time.
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We'll get into some specific questions about how things worked as we go.
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But Jane, could you maybe just tell us a bit about Cadence and Over's story and and how the evolution of that business was?
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Yeah, sure.
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So we Cadence and Over actually started as Cadence partnership about 18 years ago.
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Gary Gita and myself met through various consulting routes.
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And really I think the key was the shared values of what we wanted to offer our clients, what we wanted to really make an impact on and shared outcomes.
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That was that was about eight eighteen years ago now, wasn't it, Gita?
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Um yeah, um we really came up with a concept of Cadence and OVA about eight years ago now, um, and that was really we wanted to make a step change and grow a business of like-minded people who had a passion for public services transformation.
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It's not what we just do, but it's the it's the golden thread of what we do do.
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And that step change was really around how can we bring together people who want to and want and have a passion in that part of the industry, especially within the UK.
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One of our shared values, and and and I'll Kita has um real views around this, was we really wanted shared ownership within that.
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So we set up Cadence with shared ownership for anyone who joins us.
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And Kita, probably best for you to just uh say a little bit about that.
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Sure.
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So, in terms of shareholder uh landscape, I guess we as founders obviously had the initial shares of business.
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What we decided to do is sort of save 25% of that for our share ownership scheme, and that enabled us to be flexible as people came came on board.
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And the reason for doing it was very much, as Jane says, values led.
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We were because we had people who were coming in and wanted to make a real impact, we felt that they they had a kind of desire to have an own ownership of a stake in that business, and that would help that would only help the whole thing to grow anyway and bond us all together in a in a really tight way.
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So that's why we did that.
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And we so that that was a sort of share ownership scheme that lasted just a typical kind of EMI scheme with options and uh ability to vest after a couple of years.
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So so that was uh that was really important to us.
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So alongside that and alongside the values, building the values with the people, building the culture with the people, and ensuring that we started off.
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So we started off with a lot of people that were coming from different areas, different experiences, different backgrounds, um, really wanted that diversity in the company.
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So that's that's what where we get went with that.
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No, that's great.
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And you sold the business.
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Tell us just a bit about that, when that happened and where where the business is now.
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We we sold the business August last year.
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So so we're in the integration phase, I'd say.
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We've done quite a bit, so I think that's good.
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But um the business itself is is working.
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Uh people have have really accepted the change.
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And obviously the shareholders had uh a stake in that as well.
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Our our EMI shareholders.
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So so that was a that was kind of a a a piece of uh uh an exercise that was quite useful for them because it gave them something out of it.
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So very very happy that that was the case.
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That made actually that that was really nice that we could actually give something back to those those folk who'd been working with us for so long.
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And yes, they said they're they're largely simulating, and what I wouldn't say is assimilating, it's more we're we're creating a new business, effectively.
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So it's about b bringing the two bits together and making sure that they work in a completely different way.
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Oh, that's great.
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And you're part of part of Transform UK now, correct?
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Excellent.
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Richard, could you maybe do the same for for the pinned partnership story just to help us understand kind of where you came from and and that journey to through to Wavestone?
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Sure.
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So in 2012, uh having been through my first transaction and and uh and a period with that organization, had had an urge to to go again as a privately owned business with all the joy that brings in terms of adventure and fun and and ownership, etc.
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So I contacted a number of people that I'd worked with before just to sort of test the water, see anyone else interested in going again or trying something new and different.
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And much to my surprise, eight highly talented individuals said, actually, yeah, this is a great time for me to think about doing that.
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And um, before you know it, we had a a company with a working title called Penn, and it ended up staying as Penn or a big partnership.
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So there was nine founders, all equal.
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We wanted to be the same, and it was effectively a flexible, we called it a lifestyle business at the time.
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So you could you could it was a risk and reward-based remuneration.
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If you wanted to really go all guns blazing, you could probably earn very, very decent money.
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And if you wanted to take the foot off the gas, that was okay, completely permitted.
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People could balance work-life obligations along the way, vary them, and that's how we spent the sort of the first half of Penn operating.
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Grew the company very quickly, but without uh compromising quality.
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Soon got into sort of double figures, million revenue, and then thought, okay, now what do we do?
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So we flipped from being uh LP to a limited company just to get the formality that goes with that.
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And at the same time, around the same time, we started to extend the stakeholder shareholder network into some next generation leaders in terms of preparing for the future.
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At that point, we weren't particularly disposed towards a transaction, we just thought it was a part of modernizing and growing the business.
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And so we went into the world of COVID and experienced teams for the first time and virtual working, and uh, I think that caused some of us to say, okay, once we've got over this, assuming we survive, well, it was because no one knew at the time what was going to happen to our type of business, but it thankfully it it survived and thrived again.
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And so a few people started to comment on the need to remove some financial risk and maybe think about doing something different.
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But that was it took a long while for that to happen.
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So when we thought, okay, that's an idea, we spent some time thinking, okay, well, let's just um let's get match fit.
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We've gone to limited company, we need to be a bit more robust in terms of how we organise ourselves and how we do succession planning and and things like that.
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And then to our surprise, very quickly after that, we received an approach, uh, a speculative approach to acquire the business, cutting a not terribly long story even shorter.
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Uh that didn't work out in the end for both parties, although we had quite an extensive interaction.
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We couldn't we didn't feel we could work properly together and satisfy everyone's needs.
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Fuelled by that, we then went to the broad stakeholder group, which is now extended, and said, look, we've had a few chats along the way.
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We had an approach which we've declined that how do people feel about looking at other options in the market.
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And there was a general interest in understanding what those options would be without necessarily committing to anything.
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So we appointed some advisors, did what you do, went to market in early 22 and wrapped it up in August by signing contracts with Wavestone.
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Nice.
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Fantastic.
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And no doubt.
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Loads and loads of work and ups and downs and for both firms in in those periods in between.
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I know from talking to all of you before that you worked really hard to make sure that as teams of owners you stayed aligned over the years and through different incarnations of the firms.
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I'd really like us to just kind of bring that concept of alignment, if you will, to life a bit and make it really tangible for people who might be listening.
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So, Ningula, when you think about the different evolutions of pen and then more specifically the conversations that started to turn during COVID about moving towards an exit, what did what did alignment mean for you and the team?
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So, for example, what dimensions did it include?
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Maybe business objectives or paths to exit, roles you might play after the exit, valuation timing, all that kind of stuff.
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What what did what did you kind of mean by alignment, even if you didn't use that word?
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Probably all of that, actually.
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Um obviously picking up from Richard's story really and just drilling into the the kind of second half of the business, because I think it's probably more relevant for this conversation.
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I think the best way to think about alignment, certainly from our perspective, was the two levels.
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So we had the founder alignment and then we had the broader stakeholder group, which you can kind of differentiate between those that had some kind of equity interest and those that didn't.
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Um, and I can kind of talk uh to those three groups.
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So at a founder level, I suppose, given the shock of COVID and and sort of a little bit of unsettlement around, okay, so what does this mean for some of us?
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We we immediately found that we had, I guess the way to describe it would be a mixture of sort of long game differences in terms of how people saw themselves.
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Some people wanted to continue working, either through necessity, age, or just wanted to carry on doing what they were doing.
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Um and others didn't.
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Others had probably thought at that point, well, okay, this is not for me, certainly in the medium term.
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And so one of the things that we had to do was in our strategic search for an answer to that, and I suppose, you know, as Richard pointed out, de-risking the business through either financing it or selling it, or indeed um uh doing something else through private equity.
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Um we had to really at the founder level initially make sure that it worked for everybody, and I think that's the simplest way to put it.
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So I'm sure we'll get into a bit more detail around how we do that, but that was the sort of one level.
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The second level was very much about trying to ensure that whatever decision that we took as we started to move into the process of think about what that meant, also worked for that broader group.
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And I think we took what I would call a fairly brave decision that as a group of founders, once we were aligned, we we actually wanted 100% alignment amongst that stakeholder group, the broader stakeholder group.
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So we made sure that we first of all understood where people wanted to go medium-long term and what would work for them.
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And then secondly, as we started to evaluate the options as they presented themselves, we were able to fairly quickly say no to certain directions simply because it was clear that that wouldn't work for everybody, and that was really important.
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And I suppose the final point to make really on that is is alignment in that context meant alignment from a career perspective, but also from a cultural perspective.
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We we uh right from the very outset, and I know a lot of people probably say this, but um, we really did focus on culture.
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I think Richard and I would probably agree to say that if nothing else, we wanted to ensure that any errors or misjudgments we've made in the past in terms of cultural development, we we we capitalized on that and made sure that we we started and and finished the right company um in terms of being a fantastic place to work.
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And so that was a a hugely important element of alignment as well.
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It wasn't just financial and career, it was also this is somewhere that we we like being and we like spending time with one another.
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So that was also very much part of the alignment process, both in terms of selecting an option for us that worked, and then when we got down to actually thinking about who that might be, ensuring that the cultures were aligned as well.
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No, that's great.
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And loads of layers and different kind of different opinions and peoples and options and all of that that we're gonna come back later to the kind of some practicalities around that.
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Gita, uh what about a Cadence and Over?
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Did you did you guys there were obviously a much follower group of you, did you all have the same view of what a successful exit might look like or the differences that you had to work through?
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Tell us a bit about how how you worked through those things.
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I think for us it started, we started talking about our future strategy probably right at the beginning when we started growing the company.
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So that itself evolved from where we started.
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We started thinking about what we might do in the future and where we might go and whether we might, you know, invest in other things or grow some things in a different way.
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Jane was very good at keeping us on track and keeping us making sure we were thinking about the future strategy on a regular basis.
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And I think that really helped because that meant we had we couldn't just leave it, you can get very involved in the operational business.
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I mean, this true if you're running around like blue ass wise trying to keep things going, then then that's it doesn't uh yeah, it doesn't give you a lot of time to think.
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And I think having time to think was really important.
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So I think we we were aligned culturally and values-wise.
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I agree with Neil, that's the most important thing.
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And actually, because that helps you, if you if you're kind of in that space of shared values, you can really get through most problems or most disagreements in a kind of reasonable way.
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Yeah, everyone wants to help each other and get to where they want to get to.
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So I think that's that's really important.
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As we started to explore growth and exit, and Jane, you can uh uh uh please feel free to add in edit anything.
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We looked at all sorts of different options for what we might do in the same way as I think you you guys did.
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The way that we could just keep aligned was keep talking about that future strategy on a regular basis, and in terms of like w whether people had changed their views.
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We had to think about obviously we we uh when we were starting to think about the eSOP scheme in the EMI and the succession planning, obviously you're looking for a a a future team, aren't you?
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You're looking for the next level, and we had to think keep an eye on that and think, well, is this is that gonna work?
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Is that gonna be a possibility at any future date?
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So we were keeping in one eye open on that side of things, one eye open on on other things.
00:19:51.039 --> 00:19:56.480
Obviously, you get inundated by people sending emails saying they're interested in buying you.
00:19:56.559 --> 00:20:05.119
Yeah, they may not be interested in buying you, but we we we were approached several times during a long period of time when we weren't even thinking about it properly.
00:20:05.359 --> 00:20:09.119
And I think we just we just made sure that we kept going back to it.
00:20:09.200 --> 00:20:17.200
And actually during the process, another thing that really kept us, I think, aligned was the value creation of what we were trying to do.
00:20:17.440 --> 00:20:29.519
So again, Jane, very good at keeping us on track on that sort of value creation piece and looking at it from not just how are we growing our uh revenues but more about what are we creating, what's that going to look like?
00:20:29.680 --> 00:20:31.920
Is that gonna be viable as a business for the future?
00:20:32.319 --> 00:20:33.920
Jane, do you want to add anything?
00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:56.640
One thing we did well, and obviously we learnt lots of lessons, but one of the things we did well is which sometimes SMEs overlook is we had really good robust governance in place, and I think that really helped us when we got to the acquisition period.
00:20:56.960 --> 00:21:26.559
But I think one thing that I've observed and reflected when other people have asked me is we had great board governance in place, then we had great that management leadership team governance in place, and I think I mean we we were not small small, but that really helped us get through not just being a successful SME and growing SME, but really in that acquisition period.
00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:30.799
I think people sometimes underestimate how that can really help you.
00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:44.960
If you were gonna describe maybe three or four things, practically speaking, that that you mean by great board governance, because I think I think that's super important and some people might get that and some might not.
00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:56.319
What kind of what kinds of things did you do that um so simple things like regularity of meetings, not cancelling it, in uh seeing it as a priority?
00:21:56.480 --> 00:21:58.880
It's sometimes it's just the really simple things.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:23:05.519
talked about keeping that future longer term view on the organisation it's very easy when you're an SME to get course in the here and now and so decision making and for me even if you don't agree as you know as as individuals you go out of that board meeting with those really strong key messages to your employee owners because that's what we had and but your clients and your customers as well so keep it just keep it simple as well the amount of SMEs I know who overlook the importance of that and the regularity and pardon the pun the cadence of those meetings going ahead even if you're not prepared or you don't feel like you're just having that cadence of getting together at the board level, making the decisions, keeping an eye on the future of the company as well as the here and now.
00:23:05.839 --> 00:23:06.160
Sure.
00:23:06.400 --> 00:23:15.839
No it's a great segue because I'd like to talk a bit about kind of things change over time for people, ambitions and market realities.
00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:24.240
And so generally speaking I'd say kind of keeping people aligned isn't about as you've alluded to a one-off agreement it's and we see that all the time in our work with clients.
00:23:24.319 --> 00:23:30.720
And so I'd like to get a bit more deeply into how people keep themselves aligned over the years.
00:23:30.799 --> 00:24:04.640
Now Neil when when we spoke before you talked about some meaning disciplines that you guys used and the emphasis you put on in place and making sure everybody had had a voice can you talk kind of aligned a bit to some of Jane's stuff around governance can you talk to us about that a bit yeah and first of all I'd echo everything that Jane said I mean it it was it you know I would probably answer in exactly the same way insofar as the importance of making sure that you took governance incredibly seriously and and showed up in a very professional way with a professional hat on and and you know not not took taking those meetings for granted right from the very outset.
00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:56.319
I mean I the point I was making when we spoke John and I think it is just a couple of micro examples but certainly for the first few years of the business the partner meetings were the nine of us that that owned the shares in the business originally we didn't have a managing partner so even though this was Richard's idea we we very much were equals so we had to discuss things and talk them out and sometimes that might be meaning being shut in a room until we could agree on something that was quite significant or strategic in the in the business as we evolved and that meant I I think the word I would use is having quite active discourse at times you know really kind of getting to the nub of an issue and feeling that even though to Jane's point you might walk out of the meeting with a view that hasn't changed you still felt that you've been heard by everybody and that you know the the the sort of practical elements of that would be the way we ran our meetings.
00:24:56.400 --> 00:25:40.640
We incidentally I mean we we sort of unwittingly adopted a bunch of principles that you will find in a book by a lady called Nancy Klein uh Time to think we we sort of accidentally created a a thinking organisation whereby we started our meetings with a check-in go around the table see everyone's feeling what's going on what's gone on that's been good in the last sort of month then when we got into the the meat of something uh particularly if it was a tricky decision or something that required some people to change their views we would go around the table and spend however long it would take for people to express their views their opinions not interrupted so in a way that they really genuinely felt heard and and it was extremely important that people weren't tapping around their laptops while that was happening or doing something on the phone.
00:25:40.720 --> 00:25:45.039
It was a proper discussion where people listened and we stuck to that and we we kept that going.
00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:52.799
So in the first evolution of the business it was that at the same time when we ran our staff meetings each month we would adopt exactly the same principles.
00:25:52.960 --> 00:26:12.880
So although we might not be discussing quite such strategic issues around the running of the business we would still ensure that when it was still manageable to do so when we had 25 people we'd still spend two hours doing a check-in so that everyone felt that they had an equal voice in the business both informally and formally if you like and and made sure that we we sort of did that.
00:26:13.039 --> 00:27:04.160
And then really the sort of second half of that just to kind of complete the picture really is that as the business started to evolve we had a a a partner management team that ran the business and some of us stepped back from the day-to-day running the operation of those meetings was the same I seem to remember I mean I think we were still doing check-ins at at meetings when we had 35-40 people we we had to kind of put some rules around that you know where people you know was given a couple of minutes but even so it was still very much the same so I I I suppose unwittingly proper listening proper cadence absolutely you know these things were monthly if you missed it that's fine but you won't be there and uh ensuring that everyone genuinely had a voice and and you know when we walk out of that meeting even if you don't agree with the decision that was taken from the perspective of I would have taken a different decision if I could you felt heard and I think that was important.
00:27:04.480 --> 00:27:05.119
No that's great.
00:27:05.200 --> 00:27:27.920
And Jen you mentioned that your chair played quite an important role for you guys and Gita feel free to come on on this as well kind of in terms of helping clarified thinking about the transaction what each of you wanted from the deal and any red lines you might have at either at a personal level or a company level and that they also kind of helped you with that alignment over time.
00:27:28.079 --> 00:29:47.519
Can you tell us a bit a bit more about that yeah it was really I think it's linked as well to that the the comments around the governance we didn't go out to be sold we were just fielding people interested in us which was a fantastic position to be in albeit we did learn lessons about not putting a for sale sign outside I think John who's our chair not only was he absolutely fully aligned with the fact we were employee owned it's one of his passions he had been through the acquisition with multiple other firms so could navigate us through both what we wanted as an organization but what we wanted as individuals and so it was a formal via the board governance meetings where we needed to make hard decisions but also informally talking to Gary Gita and Jane as the major shareholders and navigating what could or could not have been areas where we may or may not have agreed there wasn't I'm trying to think of a good example I don't think there was many to be honest but we were we were all as well very much in and it'd be really interesting to hear what Penn says about this because as we were going through the acquisition we were still all in day-to-day roles as well so Gita was leading a one of our major accounts I was working within two of our um major growth accounts and Gary was very much in we were wearing very multiple hats at that point so getting that balance between keeping the business going and and reflecting on what Richard said because you said you had one conversation where it didn't go any further and you you decided that it wasn't the right thing for you guys going forward.
00:29:47.759 --> 00:30:58.240
You know as you're going through that acquisition journey there are there are points aren't there where you go is this going to go ahead or not our chair was really good as well as making us think about a plan B if that happened because it it's not just a transactional journey is it you're you're it's almost in parallel for you selling your your your house there's there's emotion in it isn't there there's there's there's something about your DNA and what's happening and so John was very good as well at just navigating us when when we were feeling a little bit afraid I don't know whether Guita you've got anything to add to that yeah no he was very good he um I think he was very good at understanding when to be firm about getting us to a point so what are the red lines where are we going to get what what do we not want to do and as much about that as it was about anything else um and he was also very focused on what would make in us as individuals happy I think which is which is really nice.
00:30:59.279 --> 00:31:20.640
So so that vested interest in in making us happy and and actually getting us through the process but he also was good at making yeah make making us think about what what the decisions we were making in a in a really practical way so we didn't get stuck in our you know the the emotional part of that discussion that that Jane you talked about.
00:31:20.799 --> 00:31:58.799
So I think I think he was very uh very good chair um so yeah very yeah very helpful very helpful and very helpful in navigating what are quite difficult discussions if it's it's three of you and you are like having different opinions about things you because you are you've been working together for years and years and years you are wanting everyone to be happy as well but you also want to be heard as you said Neil and um so it's trying to make sure that that balance between being heard and and being okay with that and being okay with that disagreement and coming out with with an answer at the end of the day.
00:31:59.200 --> 00:32:05.920
Yeah no it's um kind of official cat herder it sounds a bit like in in that sense.
00:32:06.079 --> 00:32:36.559
Richard I've seen you nodding a lot and I know that I don't think you're in a chair role but I do know from some of our conversations that you kind of became had a had a role in leading the the the transaction process if you will kind of I guess to what extent does what Jane and Keith have talked about resonate with with your own process of jumping the the individual side and the collective side and how things might have really interested in to what extent those wants and needs changed over the years because it was quite a quite a long journey you guys went on.
00:32:37.839 --> 00:33:08.720
Yeah I a lot of that chimes with me that we've just heard from and one of the comments I would have made at some point today really is to emphasize the importance of strong sustainable performance and and a transaction type project can be highly distracting for all sorts of reasons the excitement the fear whichever part of the spectrum you're on and it's really important that that the business comes first and no transaction is ever guaranteed.
00:33:09.200 --> 00:33:11.519
You should have a future without it as you set off.
00:33:11.680 --> 00:33:38.000
With a bit of previous experience of zoo this our team decided that it would be sensible for me to take a lead role outside of the day-to-day on running the process which I I I I was very privileged to do and enjoyed doing that greatly and what that meant for Neil and Chris and the other who was the MD at the time and the other founders was that they could really focus on continuing the success story of the business.
00:33:38.240 --> 00:33:46.400
The worst thing to do in in a transaction journey is to get so excited about it that you come off the rails performance wise it's kind of self-defeating.
00:33:46.640 --> 00:33:55.599
So I did that so that was a key role and people respected me in that capacity so they knew what my purpose was and why I was having those type of conversations with them.
00:33:55.839 --> 00:35:08.559
But I also again from prior experience took the opportunity to have a mentor along the way with me a coach slash mentor so it's similar to the chairperson but we we we had our own governance with our own chair structures for example but in terms of this project I was lucky enough to have someone to talk to it's something I um I believe passionately in the for most business executives if not all people who work having access to a coach or a mentor is a really powerful thing and this uh Stephen was very highly experienced in in this field and was able to be a sounding board check and balance uh throw a few thoughts into the process uh which I could then take to the wider group with the knowledge of the business so we did that I think you asked about thinking changed along the way just to touch on that point we did change a little bit along the way and I think the primary issue for us as we were thinking about what type of options we might pursue is that we went to open market for MA in in all its glory but after some study we decided that the private equity route didn't tick enough boxes for the combined requirements of all the stakeholders.
00:35:08.719 --> 00:35:16.480
So although it remained financially very attractive as a as a as a proposition we couldn't square it off with the combined need.
00:35:16.719 --> 00:35:46.079
So at s at a certain point in the process we had that conversation says Jane and Geet have alluded to well okay let's get all the stakeholders in the room and to Neil's point let everyone have their voice and we talked it out and talked it out or thought it out I should say until we reached the conclusion that that was the right answer to the right position to adopt so it enabled us to home in on what we consider to be a more attractive route for our business and for frankly for the people in it for the future.
00:35:46.639 --> 00:35:47.119
That's great.
00:35:47.280 --> 00:35:54.800
And um I guess to talk a bit about kind of why why keeping people aligned can be hard sometimes.
00:35:54.880 --> 00:35:57.840
It sounds like that you guys were pretty fortunate.
00:35:57.920 --> 00:36:15.840
It doesn't sound like there were many moments of kind of battling it out or key disagreement or anything but I do I do know from in the sense in the Kit'nova experience there were a couple of points where you had to put things on hold for some personal circumstances without asking about those specific circumstances.
00:36:16.000 --> 00:36:29.519
Gita I was just wondering if you could tell us how you and Jane and Gary stayed aligned as those different things came up over the years that might have thrown a bit of a spanner into what it might have been plans that might have had to change.
00:36:29.920 --> 00:36:43.440
Yeah I think it was sort of leading up to the point of exit I think we there was few uh there was a few years I guess of of people having to take time out of the business so between us.
00:36:43.679 --> 00:36:56.960
So it I mean the the benefit of being a founder with two other founders that you've worked with for that many years means that you understand each other's sort of perspectives and personal circumstances.
00:36:57.119 --> 00:37:01.440
So the the point of it was to make sure that we were supporting the people first.
00:37:02.320 --> 00:37:04.320
And I think that was that was key.
00:37:04.480 --> 00:37:21.440
We had to make sure that the three of us were okay in the process and if that meant that the process takes a little bit longer then then it does I think the the main thing is not to make key decisions in that time because some people's heads bait weren't in the right space to do that.
00:37:21.519 --> 00:37:29.039
So you you have to get everybody in the in the room when they're feeling that they can make those decisions and actually have a think about it properly.
00:37:29.280 --> 00:37:56.159
So there were that so we may have I'm just trying to think if we would have actually gone earlier but I I I think actually we what we did and it similar to to you guys is the we we decided to give ourselves a bit more space by lifting one of our MCs into the sort of that managing partner position where they would look after the business because obviously as you say the business had to run and it had to grow and it had to keep going where whatever was happening to us.
00:37:56.400 --> 00:38:12.000
So so that was a that was a really useful step because not only did it make that possible the fact that people could step out of the business as they needed to it also gave us the opportunity to spend more time thinking properly about what we might want to do.
00:38:12.159 --> 00:38:42.400
So we didn't get we didn't we weren't worried about what was going on because things were happening the the ball had not been dropped let's say and I think the that I mean everybody has difficulties in their life so you you have to kind of understand that from your perspective of uh your your people your staff your employees as well as yours yourself so we've always been pretty good at um understanding where people are and what their individual needs are and responding to those in the the right way and I think that's what we did with each other as well.
00:38:42.639 --> 00:38:45.519
So if people needed to take some time off that's that's fine.
00:38:45.599 --> 00:38:52.239
We will keep going and we'll keep thinking but we won't won't make any decisions unless we're all in the right space to do that.
00:38:52.480 --> 00:39:07.519
Yeah thanks I I'm struck by it there's so much of this like so much it's a very human thing it's a very personal thing this journey that you're trying to take a business entity through but also kind of take people's lives through and just the the importance of talking about stuff just just comes through again and again.
00:39:07.760 --> 00:39:37.760
Neil from from where do you set I suspect keeping nine people then plus wider groups all on the same page or all on the same chapter at least is is probably a bit trickier than than just keeping keeping three maybe not but to what extent were there were there any moments where it looked like you guys might come unstuck a bit or come really have any fundamental disagreements of that might have gotten or been at risk of getting in the way of of a deal particularly as you got kind of closer to a transaction.
00:39:38.000 --> 00:39:56.880
Yeah I'll I'll probably bring Richard into this as well because he plays such a specific role in um trying to make sure make sure that we we navigated this but certainly with regards to the transaction I think it certainly wasn't without different points of view, different perspectives I I don't remember having a an all-out major disagreement as such.
00:39:57.039 --> 00:40:35.039
But I certainly recall moments where as we stepped through and as the reality of these things started to become apparent to people then people did have different views and and certainly Richard in his role as kind of almost you know doing this full time um had to play some very specific role around that to ensure that he took on board people's perspective Rich I don't know if you want to sort of say any words about any specific ways in which you you sort of dealt with that but yeah we um gosh we had some big opinions around such a broad group as you can imagine that we s from the get go we we agreed that we would share everything with each other.
00:40:35.280 --> 00:40:46.559
And so I think in some of the pre-chat we had John we talked about differences and how we managed those what really what what we sorry not you talked about disagreements.
00:40:46.639 --> 00:41:08.719
I don't recall us having any disagreements I remember us having a lot of differences of opinion but our process was determined to work through those differences of opinion and we we encouraged it and the reason we encouraged it because who knew what the right answer was right so it could be that person 10 has the best idea and none of the others have thought of it.
00:41:08.880 --> 00:41:40.400
So just if you're not sharing this crazy idea uh we could be missing an opportunity so sometimes it was personal and sometimes it was you know from a business perspective the personal matters require I think sincere discussion you know that that they're they're bigger than the business transaction and I think I have a view that the majority of people in our space are sincere well-meaning people and if they've got issues to talk about it's best to talk about them.
00:41:40.559 --> 00:41:52.719
I wouldn't go into a team room and discuss them with everybody else but we had the relationship where we could do that but by and large people would then put having aired it people would then put that to one side and have a business discussion.
00:41:52.960 --> 00:42:35.760
But we had some big differences of opinion on on business outcomes you know right from I I remember one of the stakeholders after a sort of five minute introduction to a topic we were considered well there's no way that's going to work there's no way I could sign up to that you know and think okay well that's uh that's a well-formed view after five minutes um so we had quite a few of those moments along the way but with good humour sometimes uh but with uh to use a phrase I think Jane Orgiti used it was in our DNA just to work through those things and on more than one occasion we would have someone say look it's not a course of action I would have voted for but I am part of this team and I will go with the consensus.
00:42:35.920 --> 00:42:48.079
Yeah and that made a massive difference to to getting through those moments but we actually to answer the question directly we celebrated differences of opinion because it it ensured a high integrity approach.
00:42:48.639 --> 00:42:49.360
That's great.
00:42:49.519 --> 00:42:50.079
Thank you.
00:42:50.400 --> 00:43:18.159
So as we start to wrap up before we get to the rapid fire section if you will I'd love to give listeners some really practical advice for people who might be part of a founder or shareholder group that might find that they're not quite on the same page yet or might even not know if they're all on the same page or not because we we certainly work with people who just don't talk about this stuff necessarily in the way that you guys have so um I'm gonna come to each of you Gita I'll start with you if that's okay.
00:43:18.639 --> 00:43:50.000
If you were just giving some really practical advice to people in terms of how to keep owners aligned even if it's years before a deal what and to set themselves up for really smooth conversations as a group what what couple of bits of advice would you give around alignment so if you're thinking about sort of thinking about future strategy and I think if you're I think I think a lot of it does come down to sensible governance and being able to have those open discussions where you are allowing people to have a voice.
00:43:50.159 --> 00:43:58.239
If you're doing that the whole way through you're running a business you're creating that atmosphere where people feel safe to be able to say what they want to say.
00:43:58.400 --> 00:44:01.039
So I think that's really Key.
00:44:01.199 --> 00:44:06.000
You have to find out if you are finding that there are schisms that you're not seeing.
00:44:06.400 --> 00:44:14.320
So the more frequent you have, especially during the transactional process, the more frequent discussions you have.
00:44:14.480 --> 00:44:26.559
I mean, we I think we went to weekly uh check-ins just to make sure everyone was on the same page and and there wasn't anyone sort of thinking something was happening that wasn't happening, or we made some decision that nobody had heard of.
00:44:26.960 --> 00:44:35.199
We need to make sure we had to make sure that the governance was in place so that decisions were logged and tracked and that uh conversations were open and honest at the time.
00:44:35.280 --> 00:44:39.039
So I think that's that's kind of quite a key piece.
00:44:39.280 --> 00:44:44.880
I think I mean I can't it yeah, I can't stress enough that it's very important to just be able to talk about these things.
00:44:45.039 --> 00:44:50.880
And if you can't if you can't do that, you've got loads more problems than you have about a business exit.
00:44:51.119 --> 00:44:51.519
Yeah, yeah.
00:44:51.840 --> 00:44:54.559
So talk talk a lot and frequently.
00:44:54.880 --> 00:44:56.079
Yeah, yes, exactly.
00:44:56.239 --> 00:45:04.079
And and you know, that there's lots of things that happen during the transactions that that that will change, you know, during the time that you're even in it.
00:45:04.239 --> 00:45:06.880
So you you have to be you have to be on it the whole time.
00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:09.360
That's very Richard, how about you?
00:45:10.079 --> 00:45:11.760
Gosh, um, what would be key?
00:45:11.920 --> 00:45:17.920
Well, my first piece of advice to anyone on getting alignment is at the start, don't seek alignment.
00:45:18.079 --> 00:45:22.480
Because then you're constraining and and potentially restricting people's true feelings.
00:45:22.719 --> 00:45:27.360
So my my point on alignment is don't start on alignment.
00:45:27.920 --> 00:45:33.760
Start on dreams, start on vision, start on hopes, aspirations, strategy.
00:45:33.920 --> 00:45:38.800
You know, use the bigger words to get people to express how they see the future unfolding.
00:45:39.039 --> 00:45:43.360
And then, of course, alignment becomes crucial in the fullness of time.
00:45:43.599 --> 00:45:51.440
So I think having someone skilled at the interpersonal nature of those discussions is also important.
00:45:51.840 --> 00:45:53.440
And that that would be my two points.
00:45:53.760 --> 00:45:55.679
You know, have someone facilitate that.
00:45:55.760 --> 00:46:00.000
I was lucky enough to do that for Penn with good relations with all the stakeholders.
00:46:00.239 --> 00:46:02.639
But at the start, you know, kind of let it go.
00:46:02.719 --> 00:46:04.239
Just tell me what's on your mind.
00:46:04.320 --> 00:46:05.760
This is the territory we're talking about.
00:46:05.920 --> 00:46:06.800
What do you think?
00:46:06.960 --> 00:46:09.199
Yeah, um, and see what people come up with.
00:46:09.440 --> 00:46:09.920
Fantastic.
00:46:10.079 --> 00:46:11.280
Jane, how about you?
00:46:11.679 --> 00:46:13.519
I think it's all being covered actually.
00:46:13.679 --> 00:46:15.440
Talk, talk, and talk again.
00:46:15.760 --> 00:46:25.280
For me, just going back to the analogy, it is akin to in other parts of your life selling your house.
00:46:25.679 --> 00:46:32.480
Yeah, so there is emotional part of this and unemotional transactional parts.
00:46:32.800 --> 00:46:39.039
All four people on this call have put their heart and soul into building businesses and then selling it.
00:46:39.280 --> 00:46:47.119
I can't underestimate how much the non-transactional people side comes into it.
00:46:47.679 --> 00:46:58.800
And you have to give each other space for that and respect when people are going through it at different parts of the transaction.
00:46:59.119 --> 00:47:15.280
No doubt Penn like Cadence Nova, you had different parts to lead on in the in the acquisition transition transaction period, and you have to understand and empathise with people when they're going through that period.
00:47:15.599 --> 00:47:30.800
And and I really resonate with what Richard said about the you know when it didn't go to plan for your time before, it doesn't always happen like it happened with us when it went through the first time.
00:47:31.039 --> 00:47:46.239
And talking to other people in this community when it doesn't go through the first time, that's when you really need to pick yourself up and learn lessons and and not introspect that it's something that you've done wrong.
00:47:46.400 --> 00:47:49.360
It's just a it's just a decision that's been made.
00:47:49.760 --> 00:47:50.559
No, thank you.
00:47:50.719 --> 00:47:53.199
And and and Neil, what about from your perspective?
00:47:53.360 --> 00:47:57.039
Any tips on alignment or not starting with alignment as it were?
00:47:57.360 --> 00:47:59.519
No, that's a very good point made.
00:47:59.679 --> 00:48:10.400
I think the only thing I'd add to everything that's been said already is clarity and constant review of personal goals within this, you know, really, really make sure that we we keep on top of that.
00:48:10.559 --> 00:48:28.159
And then within the process itself, certainly for the team that were involved, not just in so I my role within this, you know, obviously Richard was leading it, but I was kind of in a a smaller group that we had specific roles and responsibilities, of which mine was all around comms and both internal and external.
00:48:28.320 --> 00:48:32.239
Um, but clarity of the role that you're playing within this process.
00:48:32.480 --> 00:48:44.639
So if your role is to just keep the business going and make sure that we don't get distracted from that, then make that absolutely abundantly clear so that you feel that you're participating in an active way, even if you're not actually involved in the specifics of the deal.
00:48:44.800 --> 00:48:58.880
In my specific role, if you like, you know, you're kind of as long as you're clear what you're doing and what everybody else is doing, then you can provide 100% attention to that in the hours of the day that you give up to doing that thing.
00:48:58.960 --> 00:49:19.199
And and I know that's an obvious statement, and it's kind of like you know, 101 of project management, but at the same time, I think in this kind of circumstance where to Jane's point you overlay the emotion into it as well, then it's hugely important to have that so that you can focus and concentrate and be very, very clear about what you're doing with purpose as opposed to just going through the motions, if you like.
00:49:19.920 --> 00:49:39.280
I think that that point about keeping the day job going and knowing who's doing what in the transaction process is a point that comes up a lot in the unlocking unlocking value publication we that that sits alongside this podcast series, but that also gets touched upon in a couple of the other episodes that that I know from speaking to loads of people is super important.
00:49:39.679 --> 00:49:46.880
And and it you've got to keep the you've got to keep the the the train on the tracks while you're going through it, but also people don't need to know who's doing what.
00:49:47.039 --> 00:49:59.760
And it's really important that for those who are focused mainly on the day job, as you said, Neil, that they know when they're going to get brought in the process and they're absolutely confident that that will happen and that they'll have a voice while they're also doing the other things they're doing.
00:50:00.079 --> 00:50:00.880
Really appreciate that.
00:50:00.960 --> 00:50:09.440
I mean, that's been been a fantastic conversation, and and it's it's it's a privilege to get to people to talk to you guys about about the businesses and your journeys.
00:50:09.599 --> 00:50:15.440
We're we're wrapping up all these episodes with with a bit of kind of rapid fire advice, if you will.
00:50:15.599 --> 00:50:23.360
Now, this steps away from the the questions about alignment and those kind of things and gets more just into kind of preparing and and and stuff.
00:50:23.599 --> 00:50:27.760
So I'll I'll I'll come around to each of you for for for a quick response.
00:50:28.000 --> 00:50:32.559
Richard, I'll start with you and then Neil, Jane, and Geeta, I'll let you have the last words.
00:50:32.639 --> 00:50:43.119
So the first question is if you could go back and give yourself or somebody maybe you were advising, one piece of advice when they were preparing for a deal, what would that be?
00:50:43.360 --> 00:50:44.000
Richard?
00:50:44.639 --> 00:50:49.599
Yeah, I'd repeat, as consultants, and we're all consultants in this community, right?
00:50:49.840 --> 00:50:52.159
We we live our lives in solution mode.
00:50:52.320 --> 00:50:57.119
Okay, so anything crops up, we already start designing solutions and outcomes.
00:50:57.440 --> 00:50:59.360
So my advice would be don't do that.
00:50:59.599 --> 00:50:59.920
Right?
00:51:00.400 --> 00:51:07.519
Just focus on, as I said earlier, focus on the big picture, leave the solutions to another day, get the get the hopes and dreams and vision out.
00:51:07.679 --> 00:51:11.039
And I think Gita used the phrase red line earlier.
00:51:11.119 --> 00:51:12.719
You know, are there any red lines here?
00:51:12.800 --> 00:51:22.960
And you know, what whatever your process is, then just stay big and leave the solution until later on because it's a fabulous learning exercise if you keep options open.
00:51:23.280 --> 00:51:23.519
Thank you.
00:51:23.599 --> 00:51:24.800
And and Neil, what about you?
00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:28.079
Advice for somebody who's preparing for a deal somewhere down the line.
00:51:28.480 --> 00:51:35.039
I think prepare yourself for when you start to go into it and and make sure you prepare this.
00:51:35.119 --> 00:51:36.880
It is prepare for the emotion.
00:51:36.960 --> 00:51:47.119
Uh, I know we've cut touched on it a few times, but um, I can honestly say I don't know, I've ever been through a more turbulent time in business than entering and actually going through the transaction.
00:51:47.199 --> 00:52:25.119
And and so I think there's quite a lot you can do to prepare not only yourself for that, but also ensure that we you know a lot of the stuff we've talked about alignment is very important in that so that you can try to keep the the train on the tracks because you know you go from hour to hour sometimes from euphoria to despair and back to euphoria again, and then somewhere in between, just because of a phone call you had with the lawyers, or without going into detail in our case, we had a a little glitch with um an element of a few words that had been missed off of um our EMI scheme that had to be resolved and uh story for another day, maybe even a whole podcast uh on what happened that afternoon because it was I can't ever describe it.
00:52:25.199 --> 00:52:30.480
It was it was terrifying and brilliant at the same time, and the solution was uh was very um well received.
00:52:30.559 --> 00:52:38.400
But anyway, I I think it's just kind of almost uh throw anything you've experienced before out of the window and be prepared for that, I think.
00:52:38.719 --> 00:52:44.880
Tales of glitches and I and i schemes are not uncommon and probably could do our old other other podcasts.
00:52:45.119 --> 00:52:45.840
Jane, what about you?
00:52:46.000 --> 00:52:49.039
Advice for somebody preparing themselves for a deal.
00:52:49.920 --> 00:53:05.679
Um stay calm, remember what the outcome is you're aiming for, and if you don't get that outcome, it's fine, life goes on, there's another day, and there'll be another transaction.
00:53:06.000 --> 00:53:15.679
It's I think reflecting on some of the stuff Richard said, it's it's a it's a learning curve, and if it doesn't come off, there's a reason for it.
00:53:15.760 --> 00:53:22.559
I'm a big believer in karma, so there's a reason why it hasn't, and it'll be a better outcome the next time around.
00:53:22.639 --> 00:53:24.239
It's a big learning curve.
00:53:24.400 --> 00:53:26.639
And and try and enjoy it.
00:53:26.719 --> 00:53:32.159
There were times where Gita was phoning me going, Come on, it's gonna be okay.
00:53:32.400 --> 00:53:34.559
Just try and enjoy it, yeah.
00:53:34.880 --> 00:53:38.159
Because there are days where you just go, Why am I doing this?
00:53:38.400 --> 00:53:39.440
So yeah.
00:53:39.760 --> 00:53:40.400
Gita.
00:53:41.119 --> 00:53:42.079
Thanks, Gita.
00:53:42.400 --> 00:53:49.599
Well, I just everything has been said largely, but I I think uh I'd say give yourself time to think out of the business.
00:53:49.679 --> 00:53:52.159
So make sure you give yourself the space.
00:53:52.400 --> 00:54:08.400
And I'm going to say something very practical, which is if you're even contemplating this, start thinking about your data room and what's going to be in it, because it's a pain in the butt getting that sorted out whilst you're trying to do all these conversations with lawyers.
00:54:08.559 --> 00:54:14.400
So, you know, I think I would have started that a lot a lot longer earlier if I had had the opportunity.
00:54:15.039 --> 00:54:20.480
You won't, you're you're not the only person who will who has said or will probably say that as we go through these conversations.
00:54:20.800 --> 00:54:27.840
Final one then, and it's linked a little bit, but this is maybe more kind of about people thinking about whether is this even for me for me or not.
00:54:28.000 --> 00:54:43.039
So, what what advice would you get to give to founders or leaders who are thinking about selling or doing some kind of investment transaction, whether that's next year or years down the road, just some kind of that kind of almost more fundamental is this right for me kind of advice.
00:54:43.199 --> 00:54:43.679
Richard?
00:54:44.159 --> 00:54:49.039
Oh, I'd um I'd probably answer that with brilliant basics.
00:54:49.280 --> 00:54:58.400
Whatever business you're running, or whatever home it might end up in, or whatever shape it might morph to, just doing the basics brilliantly is so, so important.
00:54:58.639 --> 00:55:06.960
I think Jane alluded to earlier some SMEs, you know, a little informal in how they organize themselves, maybe how they distribute profits.
00:55:07.039 --> 00:55:07.599
I don't know.
00:55:07.679 --> 00:55:09.599
You know, it's all very flexible.
00:55:09.760 --> 00:55:23.119
But if this is remotely on your mind, just get the get the basics in place, get governance, good governance, focus on eBit DAR, look after people, have a diverse team, be significant in terms of purpose rather than profit.
00:55:23.280 --> 00:55:27.440
You know, it's all all the elements that make up a thriving business.
00:55:27.679 --> 00:55:33.280
And if a transaction doesn't happen, that business will survive and thrive.
00:55:33.440 --> 00:55:37.360
But if you're gearing up solely for that purpose, that's likely to end in failure.
00:55:37.519 --> 00:55:41.440
So I would say just make it focus on the basics and do them brilliantly.
00:55:41.760 --> 00:55:42.079
Thank you.
00:55:42.239 --> 00:55:43.039
And Neil?
00:55:43.440 --> 00:55:45.119
Yeah, um I agree with all of that.
00:55:45.360 --> 00:55:53.280
Just as a slightly different perspective to offer, I suppose, having come out of the other side of it and and now evolving my my career and life in a slightly different way.
00:55:53.440 --> 00:56:10.000
I I suppose for from a personal perspective for anyone considering this, particularly as a founder, is have a really good think through what life might be like after a transaction, not just in terms of how you feel about the business, but also at least have some kind of plan as to what you're going to do.
00:56:10.079 --> 00:56:18.960
If I've was very much part of our business for two and a half years after the transaction, and I kind of knew that my my mind would perhaps shift a little bit, which it did.
00:56:19.199 --> 00:56:47.679
And I've now left Wavestan, but you know, very much enjoyed part of the process, which I I thought I would, but also just I suppose my advice is just give good consideration to that, and if you can speak to people independent from that to help you, whether it be through coaching or or indeed just you know sort of friends and family, if that just to really understand what your state of mind would be like in that and think through purposefully how you might deal with something like that because it it will change.
00:56:47.920 --> 00:56:48.239
Thank you.
00:56:48.400 --> 00:56:49.039
And Jane?
00:56:50.000 --> 00:56:54.159
I think just two fantastic bits of advice.
00:56:54.320 --> 00:56:56.880
I don't think I've got anything else to add, actually.
00:56:57.199 --> 00:56:57.760
That's all right.
00:56:57.920 --> 00:56:58.559
And Gita?
00:56:59.440 --> 00:57:11.199
Uh no, I would just say just think about the the basic foundation of your business, which tends to be the culture and values that you are, that you look after.
00:57:11.360 --> 00:57:14.559
And if you sort of stick with that, you can't really go far wrong.
00:57:14.800 --> 00:57:16.719
That would be my my toughness with.
00:57:17.280 --> 00:57:18.639
Great thought to close on.
00:57:18.800 --> 00:57:21.920
Well, listen, I you know, really enjoy the conversation, as I said.
00:57:22.079 --> 00:57:26.159
If any, I suspect some people might like to reach out, pick your brains a bit.
00:57:26.239 --> 00:57:31.360
Are you guys happy for somebody to reach out through LinkedIn or some other way to get in touch?
00:57:31.679 --> 00:57:31.920
Sure.
00:57:32.159 --> 00:57:32.480
Good.
00:57:32.639 --> 00:57:36.639
Um look, I'll put I'll put LinkedIn profiles in the show notes.
00:57:36.800 --> 00:57:45.679
One final time, just a huge thank you to all of you for sharing so so openly and hope you have a great rest of your days.
00:57:46.159 --> 00:57:46.880
Thank you, John.
00:57:47.119 --> 00:57:48.480
Pleasure to meet you, Jane and Eito.
00:57:51.280 --> 00:57:53.599
If you found this episode valuable, there's more.
00:57:53.840 --> 00:57:59.440
Unlocking Value is a six-part series designed to help you plan and prepare for a future transaction or investment.
00:57:59.679 --> 00:58:06.800
You'll find links to the other five episodes in the show notes, along with access to our short but comprehensive digital book that complements the series.
00:58:06.960 --> 00:58:09.920
It's entirely free and available to download right now.
00:58:10.079 --> 00:58:14.400
It's our way of helping you plan what's next for your firm with clarity and confidence.
00:58:14.639 --> 00:58:17.360
Thanks for listening and hope you'll join us again.