CONVICTING A MURDERER-Brenda Schuler and Shawn Rech

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You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
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Killers in True crime History and the authors that have
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written about him Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Night Stalker VTK
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every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
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and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with
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your host journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening.
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Convicting a Murderer unveils the shocking truth behind one of
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the most controversial criminal cases in history. In Netflix's Making
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a Murderer, which had one hundred million viewers, Stephen Avery
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was portrayed as an innocent victim of corrupt law enforce Smith.
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But there's more to the story than what we were shown.
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Convicting a Murderer is narrated by Candice Owens, who sets
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the record straight by exposing the hidden evidence in the
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murder of Teresa Halbach. Convicting a Murderer is a ten
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part documentary series available on Daily Wire Plus. Joining Me
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Now is Convicting a Murderer. Producer Brenda Schuler and director
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Sean reck Welcome to the program.
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Thank you for having us, Thank you, thank.
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You very much. First off, for people, what is the
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focus of this ten part documentary series Convicting a Murderer?
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What's it all about.
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Well, back in twenty fifteen, Netflix is Making a Murderer
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was the biggest crime docuseries of all time. We believe
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over one hundred million people watched it worldwide. Yes, we
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watched it and both became obsessed with it. I largely
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believed it and found out pretty quickly through print media
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that I was duped that a lot of information was
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left out, a lot of information was edited, like unethically edited.
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We allege and you know, we came to a conclusion
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based on bad info. So, as a documentary filmmaker who
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benefited from it because I had another series out that
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became more popular because it was similar to Making a Murderer.
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So I benefited from Making a Murderer. I thought, well,
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somebody's going to come correct the record at some point
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and I can't wait to watch it. That never happened,
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and a couple of years later, some of the people
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involved in law enforcement who were considered themselves victimized by
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Making a Murderer approached us and said, we trust you
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to tell this story because of your first film, which,
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in their words, exposed what they call the innocence industry.
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So we set out to make an answer or retort
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to Making a Murderer that included all the information and
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showed law enforcement point of view. And it took six
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and a half years. But that's what Convicting Your Murderer is.
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It's a ten part, ten hour docuseries that you can
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see on the Daily Wire Plus and it's out now.
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Brenda, as producer of Convicting a Murderer, tell us how
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you became involved and why.
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Yeah, Ashley, I watched Making a Murder, just like everyone
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else brings it over the holidays. I live about an
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hour from match Walk, so I was a little more
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local and I knew about the case beforehand, but had
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never really involved myself to any degree up until Making
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a Murder. After watching Making a Murder, I became obsessed.
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It's the best way I can describe it. Kind of
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went on a journey to figure out the truth. Prior
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to Making a Murder, I believe Stephen was guilty. Watching
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Making a Murder made me have some doubts and within
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probably a couple of days, I was back to he's
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guilty in a nutshell, so but I still wanted to know.
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I wanted all my questions answered that arose from making
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a murderer. So I kind of went on a mission.
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I reached out to the assistant district attorney from management,
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Michael greasback ended up kind of doing some fact checking
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for him on his book that connected me with Andrew Colburn,
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the officer from making a murder, that controversial officer from
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making murder. And at that point, then Michael's book was
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released and I met up with Tom Fosspender, the lead detective,
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who talked to me just about helping the prosecutor of
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the Avian Dacy trials if ken krat if I would
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help him fact.
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Check his book.
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So that's kind of how I became involved. Early on,
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just kind of inserted myself to be honest because I
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wanted the truth, and reached out to people. And then ultimately,
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as Sean said, law enforcement went to Sean and his
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partner and touch base with them on maybe a possibility
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of something happening or doing some type of series or film,
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And that's kind of how I became involved. I just
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worked with Sean and his team and got something together
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and it just took a lot then I expect to.
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But that's really my story in a nutshell.
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I was really an early retired woman from Wisconsin, working
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previously in an insurance industry for twenty some years, never
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watched True Prime or anything, and something about this chase
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just drew me in And apparently I'm still drown in.
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So here we are. But that's my story.
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Let's talk about the major issues that are examined in
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this documentary series. In the trailer, it is mentioned just
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some of the things that are going to be revealed
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in the documentary series unedited phone call, shocking unedited phone calls.
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But other than that, what are the major issues examined
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in this documentary series.
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I think that the biggest problem I have with the
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series is the fact that they edited courtroom testimony and
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they edited depositions. They changed the meaning of what people said,
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They changed people's reactions to questions to make the audience
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more skeptical, and questioned body language and things like that
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wasn't even their body language at the time that they
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were answering the question. And to me, as a filmmaker,
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if somebody takes the time to do that, they've got
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a dog in this race, and it's an advocacy piece.
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At least it's propaganda. And it was portrayed as just
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a fly on the wall watching What's Happening documentary and
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it wasn't. So a lot of the issues are They
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left a lot of things out. They said it was
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for brevity, and it's true, you can't include everything in
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the documentary, but when everything that ends up on the
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cutting room floor would have made Stephen Avery look worse,
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you have to question their motives. And that's really doing
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is questioning the filmmaker's motives and Netflix motives.
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I was just going to say, I want to kind
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of say what Sean's saying exactly too. I think the
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thing that alarmed me not being in the industry was
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that documentaries I always believed were truly like sixty minutes,
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you know, they were documents of truth.
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There were news.
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So when I first started looking into this and looking
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at these tiny little edits that I couldn't really understand
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why they didn't seem to be for brevity, and in
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the long run ended up learning that it was like
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Death by a thousand edits, as Candace says in the film,
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all of these little tiny edits that were done to
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me to form a narrative that was false, and quite frankly,
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I'm so glad that Sean did this film because it
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really needed to come forward about how people can be
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fooled and take a gregious.
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Action as a result of that.
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I mean, there were a lot of lives affected by this,
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a lot of lives, and I think that's where my
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passion comes from, is just really setting the record straight.
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So I just wanted to add that on top of
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Seawan's answer, Let's.
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Talk about Candace Owen's participation and why she's involved and
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why it's important she's involved.
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We were very very much blackballed in Hollywood when we
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thought we had to finished product. A lot of buyers
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they don't know where they're going to want to work
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in two or three years, and they don't want to
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be the ones to new co Netflix when they may
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want to work there someday. So when we originally spoke
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with the Daily Wire, we thought we were speaking with
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Fox Nation because of the because of who the buyer was,
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we didn't realize he was working with a Daily Wire.
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It ended up being quite a blessing that they were
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the ones who took this film and that Candice is
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the one who fronted it, because you have to have
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very thick skin, and you have to you have to
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be fearless to take on this. This group of they
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call themselves truthers, people who think Stephen are is innocent.
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They're a vicious bunch. This is very personal to them.
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I liken it to a religion, and I think they're
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the perfect partners to have. But the fact is we
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only had one other offer from a women's crime network
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that I did not want it on. So the Daily
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Wire was was really a perfect partnership it and it's
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not this is this series isn't limited to the Daily Wire,
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but it is. You know, if you want to watch
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it this year, that's where you watch it. And at
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this point you can you can just pay for one
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month and binge all ten episodes.
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At this point, let's get to what Daily Wire provides
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in terms of the freedom to make the kind of
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doc documentary that you want, or you've already made a
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documentary that you wanted, but these are the people that
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will distribute it and as you say, go up against
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this behemoth of truthers. But also is there not some
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blowback or resistance from Netflix itself.
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No, nothing from Netflix. They've I think they've benefited. I
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know that Making a Murderer went back on their top ten,
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so people are going back and rewatching it. So I
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guess it helped them. They're a company that in the
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past they when they've made mistakes, or even when they
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didn't make mistakes, but they were in the middle of
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a controversy like the Chappelle controversy, which was really between
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Dave Chappelle and Comedy Central. They've taken steps to do
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the right thing. I don't think that. I don't think
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Netflix is a very clinical company. They're analysts more than
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their artists, and I think that they probably enjoy the
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attention that this brought. You know, they already won their
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lawsuit over this case, so they're no real ramifications other
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than people learning that they have to question what they want.
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They can't trust documentaries. So there hasn't been really been
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any blowblack from Netflix. And I don't think Netflix told
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people to not buy our film. I think that people
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were just it's just acts of self preservation for people
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who may want to work there one day and that's
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really the problem we had in Hollywood.
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To be honest with you, Candace Owens has made some
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public statements, we'll say on Russell Brand's podcast, What to
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her does this documentary series demonstrate, as she's mentioned about
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police the attitude?
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I think that, first of all, you know, the police
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aren't always wrong. The news loves to highlight when there's
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a tragedy such as you know, George Floyd, but you know,
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they don't point out that these are these are literally
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soldiers who go out and lay their life in the
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line every day for our protection. So I think that
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that Candice is cognizant in that, and she of course
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can speak for herself, but I'm just paraphrasing her views.
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I believe, and I think that she also believes that,
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you know, this is just a ten hour piece of
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fake news. To put it quite frankly, that making a murderer,
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that Hollywood got away with a ten hour piece of
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fake news, and somebody has to correct the record. And
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I think that's why she enjoyed being involved.
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You mentioned the term the innocence industry, and this documentary series,
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the second part features somebody that claims to be just
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an advocate for the innocent, and she's a very very
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strong character and leading character in this documentary Making a Murderer.
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What about Kathleen Zelner? What about this documentary series? What
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do they theorize or have to say about Kathleen Zelner in.
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This Believe It or Not? We don't touch on that attorney.
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On Kathleen Zelener. She was in season two and we
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pretty much focus on season one of Making a Murderer.
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Kathleen Zelner is the best at what she does. I
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think that a lot of what she laid out in
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season two of Making a Murderer is a stretch. I
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think she's in a kind of a tough position representing
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someone I think is probably guilty. But if Stephen Avery
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he won one hundred million dollars in the lottery and
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went to twenty legal experts and said, who do I
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get as my attorney, he would not change attorneys. They
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would tell him he needs Kathleen Zelener. So he's got
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the best he could possibly have in this business. And
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she's done miracles with people who are innocent. So we
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don't touch on her in the first season of Convicting
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a Murderer. That doesn't mean we won't eventually our series.
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I'm not sure we even mentioned her in our ten hours. Wow.
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Okay, let's get to some specifics about what is examined
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in this docu series.
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In this documentary series, if you're referring to evidence pretty
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much everything, we go through the blood viol and just
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would an agregious that that was in making a murder?
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How the whole environment nothing And I think a lot
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of people figured that out pretty soon if they had
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any relationship to Phlebotomus, who would easily explain that. But
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the tape that you know, why the seal was broken
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was because in the nineteen or the two thousand and
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three they needed to collect some samples. So it was
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literally Stephen's attorneys and the state were presidently unsealed that.
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So the blood file, we kind of go through every
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piece of evidence that making a murder covered and just
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go through from another perspective. And was there anything in particular, Dan,
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that you were wondering about, like the bullets, the blood
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in the grund Brendan's role, and we touched on all
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of that.
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Yes, Well, I mean the thing is you mentioned in
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the trailer, it is mentioned that one of the keys
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is the key, so blood on the key.
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Right, the key that was found in Stephen's bedroom.
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That is probably the most controversial piece of evidence from
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a planting perspective. A lot of people still to this day,
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even people that believe in is guilt, think, well, it's
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possible the police could have still planted that. But the
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one thing that isn't shown in making a murder is
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a better explanation of how it possibly could have gotten there.
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So it's not like we're saying, oh, here's what happened.
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I think we're showing from the perpet that it's probable
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that it could have happened this way. But you were
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never given that opportunity because making a murder never share
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that information. So, for instance, there was a gap in
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the back of the bookcase and you never saw that.
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So when the officers were explaining how they were putting
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the binders back that they weren't collecting, they were actually
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there to collect his computer and his porn collection. So
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when they were shoving the binders back that they weren't
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collecting for evidence, it kind of got stuck and they
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jammed it in real hard, and it was theorized that
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the back of the bookcase popped open. And however the
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key was tucked in back there kind of bounced oll it,
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which from an amateur perspective of experimenting, No, we never
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went and tried to test that with anyone who who
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could prove that, But there were a lot of amateurs
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online doing that and showing videos of it, and it
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actually didn't work like that. Of course we didn't include that,
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but just from a perspective of how deep the got
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into this, everybody was doing these amateur experiments offline too.
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But so to recover the key, Andy Colburn talks about
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that in the series. He explains what he believed we
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showed the back of a bookcase and how it is
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possible that it could have happened the way Colburn described
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and the other officers described. There were three of them
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in the in the room. There's pretty much no way
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that an officer could come in and stand at the
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doorway and toss the key on the floor without the calling.
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You met officer sitting on the bed literally two feet
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away and say, oh, look there's a key, So you'd
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have to guess. My perspective on it has always been
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if you were going to plant that key, and you're
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the officer that planted.
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You're the one that's doing it. You're not going to
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be the one to find it.
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You're not going to have it found that way when
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they've already looked at that bookcase the priorate Saturday. So
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my perspective on it was you're going to have the
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calumet officer find it or someone else find And as
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far as the blood on the key, it was actually
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Stephen Avery's DNA on it and it was proven.
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To be not blood, non blood.
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Kathleen's owner did prove that it was skin cells, and
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we said in the film was testimony from one of
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the prosecutors talking to a prime lab expert just basically
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explaining that well, if somebody had the key and there
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was blood on it and he wiped it off, obviously
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you know it's got blood on he wiped it off,
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but then continued to touch it with his bare hands,
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could that explain how that got on there? He stated, yes,
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it would have eliminated anyone else's DNA on it because
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blood is very strong, and then when he touched it
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would have only shown his DNA. So that's kind of
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how we explain the key. Kind of a nutshell overall.
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How they found it, and why there was only Stephen
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Avery's DNA on it not Teresa's.
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What about the blood spatter evidence itself and the experts
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used at Avery's trial, Well.
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It depends on which blutch better. You're referring to a
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referring to the rat okay for to teresa vehicle. Okay,
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So Stephen's blood was found in the vehicle in six
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different locations, planted in three different ways. So if you
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have a planter that's going into the vehicle and he's
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using a cue tip to paint on the blood by
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the ignition in this certain way, and there's little smears
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around it, which you don't see in making your murd
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and there's little dots around it. The amount of detail
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that was in that stain For someone to plant it,
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I think we proved pretty well, would be very, very
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difficult to plant with the coagulation timeline of blood.
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Then you have the blood on her CD case, which
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is a smear.
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You have blood on the black back passenger door on
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the inside doorframe of it, and then.
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Of course you have Teresa's blood in the back of
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the vehicle.
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One of the things that came from I believe it
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was season two I just throw that out there, is
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why weren't they mixed? If there was blood in the vehicle,
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Steven's blood and Teresa's blood, why are they not together?
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Right?
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And I thought, well, that doesn't make any sense. Why
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would they be together. They didn't bleed at the same time.
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He was in his vehicle more than once. Obviously he
368
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had to put it in the garage to hide it,
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let's say, and then he had a drive that put
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it where it was found, and then when he put
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trace in the vehicle wouldn't have been the same time,
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So why would they be mixed?
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So that always just made me wonder. I just wanted
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to throw that out there.
375
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But the blood spotter, to me, was very convincing and
376
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honestly probably the most difficult for.
377
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Anyone to debunk that it wasn't Steve it actively bleeding.
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And the other thing we point out is he bled
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in his own vehicle in similar patterns, So he had
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blood dripping on the console in his very own vehicle.
381
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So how do you explain It's it's not likely that
382
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he bled in the rav four, but he bled in
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his own vehicle and that is his blood, So we
384
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point that out too. It's like, just okay, let's look
385
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at Akham's rais or what's more likely. And I think
386
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if you do that with every piece of evidence, you
387
00:19:51.559 --> 00:19:55.319
find pretty quickly that Okham's raiser will completely prove to you.
388
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The much easier way of doing this would be Stephen
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actively blood in the vehicle is faith in this series?
390
00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:06.359
Do you point out the major deceptive film techniques that
391
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they use that you spoke.
392
00:20:08.279 --> 00:20:09.440
About, Yes, we do.
393
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We compare them side by side with actual testimony, just
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like what they eliminated and what we believe the reason
395
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was to why they eliminated it.
396
00:20:20.279 --> 00:20:22.160
So I'll give you one example real quick.
397
00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:26.279
Down there's a call in the beginning where the narrative
398
00:20:26.400 --> 00:20:28.680
is that the police framed Avery to save thirty six
399
00:20:28.759 --> 00:20:31.440
million dollars in this lawsuit, right, so they targeted him
400
00:20:31.519 --> 00:20:32.000
im media.
401
00:20:32.279 --> 00:20:35.079
And there's a phone call the morning that the vehicle
402
00:20:35.200 --> 00:20:35.519
was found.
403
00:20:35.559 --> 00:20:38.160
Trees's vehicle was found on the salvage yard, and in
404
00:20:38.279 --> 00:20:41.519
that phone call, the caliumet officer is saying to the
405
00:20:41.720 --> 00:20:44.680
manage WAC officer again, remember this is missing person. At
406
00:20:44.680 --> 00:20:47.440
this point, she had three appointments prior to that. The
407
00:20:47.559 --> 00:20:51.519
last two were Steven Avery and George Ziphyr. So that morning,
408
00:20:52.079 --> 00:20:54.440
the two officers are talking about what they're going to
409
00:20:54.519 --> 00:20:57.720
do for that day in this missing person investigation, and
410
00:20:58.079 --> 00:21:01.960
they had already interviewed the two appointments, and they wanted
411
00:21:02.039 --> 00:21:04.319
to go back over and interview both of them again
412
00:21:04.880 --> 00:21:07.200
because they had interviewed them later at night and they
413
00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:09.680
just had more information now they wanted to go reinterview
414
00:21:10.119 --> 00:21:13.519
the last two people they believe saw Teresa on that Monday.
415
00:21:13.640 --> 00:21:16.400
So they when they play the recording and making a burner,
416
00:21:17.240 --> 00:21:20.920
they play the boss wants us to go back over
417
00:21:21.119 --> 00:21:23.559
and interview Steven Avery again.
418
00:21:24.160 --> 00:21:24.720
So of course the.
419
00:21:24.799 --> 00:21:27.599
Narrative around that is that police are right away going
420
00:21:27.640 --> 00:21:30.319
after Steven. They're focusing right on him, and the car's
421
00:21:30.359 --> 00:21:33.200
not even found yet, they're focusing on him. But what
422
00:21:33.279 --> 00:21:35.400
they cut off and this is what I meant by
423
00:21:35.519 --> 00:21:38.400
death by a thousand little edits. They cut off at
424
00:21:38.440 --> 00:21:41.440
the end of that and Zipper. So they say, the
425
00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:43.759
boss wants us to go back over and interview or
426
00:21:43.799 --> 00:21:48.599
reinterview Stephen Avery and Zipper again, and then the Manu
427
00:21:48.640 --> 00:21:50.599
TAC officers says, oh man, he's not going to be
428
00:21:50.759 --> 00:21:53.839
very happy about that. So they're talking about Zipper and
429
00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:58.519
how they're clearly not focusing on avery. They do these
430
00:21:58.599 --> 00:22:02.000
little sleights of hand on almost that show why they
431
00:22:02.079 --> 00:22:04.039
did it. It was like the it's clear the narrative
432
00:22:04.240 --> 00:22:07.039
was we want people to believe Steven Navy was Frank
433
00:22:07.279 --> 00:22:09.440
and how they do that is by removing these little
434
00:22:09.519 --> 00:22:13.720
in zipper type edits adding those in. And that was
435
00:22:13.759 --> 00:22:15.119
one of them that I actually thought, well, why did
436
00:22:15.160 --> 00:22:17.359
they remove that? I mean, those were her last two appointments.
437
00:22:17.400 --> 00:22:20.279
That doesn't make any sense. But as we researched more,
438
00:22:20.359 --> 00:22:22.039
we found that more and more things like that, And
439
00:22:22.079 --> 00:22:24.519
there's of course more agree just once than matter or
440
00:22:24.640 --> 00:22:27.039
more deceptive, I should say than that one. But that's
441
00:22:27.119 --> 00:22:28.880
just the quick exit in pull. And we show them.
442
00:22:28.960 --> 00:22:31.000
We show them side by side so you can actually
443
00:22:31.000 --> 00:22:33.559
see what making a murder did. We play a voice
444
00:22:33.559 --> 00:22:35.319
message from making a murder and then we played the
445
00:22:35.400 --> 00:22:38.000
actual voice message. So I think we did a really
446
00:22:38.000 --> 00:22:40.599
good job of kind of showing clearly to the audience
447
00:22:40.839 --> 00:22:45.720
what specifically was removed or omitted from making a murder.
448
00:22:46.200 --> 00:22:48.920
And then we hope that obviously the audience will be
449
00:22:49.000 --> 00:22:52.119
able to come to their own conclusion on why they
450
00:22:52.240 --> 00:22:53.000
possibly did that.
451
00:22:53.880 --> 00:22:58.759
What can you theorize either one of you, producer and director.
452
00:22:59.200 --> 00:23:02.079
What can you theory as to the reason other than
453
00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:06.799
to keep their narrative as they initially had envisioned. But
454
00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:09.839
is there more to this deception in your mind?
455
00:23:10.039 --> 00:23:13.279
In my opinion, I think that they painted themselves into
456
00:23:13.319 --> 00:23:16.079
a corner. They spent years of their lives telling a
457
00:23:16.200 --> 00:23:21.240
story that and as they slowly realized this guy's probably guilty,
458
00:23:21.319 --> 00:23:24.480
they probably went into denial because they had spent their
459
00:23:24.519 --> 00:23:27.480
life savings making a movie. That's really all I can
460
00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:30.759
as a businessman. That's how I look at it. Maybe
461
00:23:30.799 --> 00:23:32.039
Brenda has a different idea.
462
00:23:32.440 --> 00:23:34.640
The only thing from just listening to phone calls, so
463
00:23:34.720 --> 00:23:37.839
many phone calls, Dan was I do believe that they
464
00:23:38.119 --> 00:23:41.200
chose the case going into it from the standpoint exactly
465
00:23:41.279 --> 00:23:43.880
as Sean said. I think they read this article. The
466
00:23:44.039 --> 00:23:48.759
article talked about this man who was recently exonerated two
467
00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:53.119
years prior, is now being charged with the murder of
468
00:23:53.720 --> 00:23:57.039
a twenty five year old photographer. So I do believe
469
00:23:57.079 --> 00:23:59.640
they exactly what they said. They said, this is it,
470
00:23:59.799 --> 00:24:02.680
this is the story we want to go follow. And
471
00:24:02.799 --> 00:24:05.119
I think they came here and they were pushed away
472
00:24:05.519 --> 00:24:11.119
from everyone because obviously nobody could talk. The investigators couldn't talk,
473
00:24:11.240 --> 00:24:14.200
the prosecutors couldn't talk, and I think that every family
474
00:24:14.359 --> 00:24:17.319
was willing to listen. And I know from phone calls
475
00:24:17.359 --> 00:24:19.880
that Avery and his family were very skeptical of them,
476
00:24:20.559 --> 00:24:24.559
very skeptical. So I think that they did paint themselves
477
00:24:24.599 --> 00:24:27.200
into a corner is that they maintain this very close
478
00:24:27.319 --> 00:24:30.279
relationship with Steven and his family, and I think we
479
00:24:30.400 --> 00:24:33.400
portrayed that pretty well in at the end of episode nine,
480
00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:38.039
we play a phone call where the filmmakers.
481
00:24:37.599 --> 00:24:40.039
Are talking to Steven and it's so telling.
482
00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:43.839
They say to him, it almost feels like they're talking
483
00:24:43.920 --> 00:24:47.000
strategy about their film, and they say to Stephen on
484
00:24:47.079 --> 00:24:49.960
a phone call, there's a truth, and then there can
485
00:24:50.079 --> 00:24:52.920
be a full truth, and then there can be what
486
00:24:53.039 --> 00:24:56.400
actually happened, and then a little more you know, interjected
487
00:24:56.440 --> 00:24:58.079
in there, and then we end it with would it
488
00:24:58.160 --> 00:25:01.480
be enough for people to believe innocent? And to me,
489
00:25:01.640 --> 00:25:03.839
that phone call is the one that I went to
490
00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:07.200
Sean and I say, oh, my gosh, they literally knew
491
00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:09.279
what they were doing. And that was that moment that
492
00:25:09.359 --> 00:25:12.880
I kind of realized, Wow, they did have this story
493
00:25:13.000 --> 00:25:14.839
that they were following and they were kind of in
494
00:25:14.920 --> 00:25:17.319
a rock and a hard place, and I think they
495
00:25:17.359 --> 00:25:19.200
went too far with it. I think they could have
496
00:25:19.279 --> 00:25:21.759
still told the story fairly. I think they could have
497
00:25:21.960 --> 00:25:25.920
shown both sides of it from a fair standpoint, and
498
00:25:26.039 --> 00:25:30.400
they didn't have to go to the media afterwards and
499
00:25:30.559 --> 00:25:32.839
state to the media that, oh, we were just letting
500
00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:35.480
this story unfold and we pointed the camera.
501
00:25:35.880 --> 00:25:39.160
That's honest to me. That is not what I heard
502
00:25:39.240 --> 00:25:41.240
in the phone calls behind the scenes.
503
00:25:41.200 --> 00:25:44.039
And shocked me because I think it's okay to do that,
504
00:25:44.240 --> 00:25:46.519
and I think Sean would totally admit that and say this.
505
00:25:47.160 --> 00:25:50.680
You can be an advocate, you can make an advocacy piece,
506
00:25:51.039 --> 00:25:52.200
but you need to say that.
507
00:25:52.440 --> 00:25:54.200
You need to say that this is what we're doing.
508
00:25:54.279 --> 00:25:55.680
You know, we believed in Stephen.
509
00:25:56.279 --> 00:25:59.599
We feel that he was wrongly convicted or he was
510
00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:02.920
wrongly convicted, and we're telling the story and that's what
511
00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:05.839
we're doing. But then don't go to media and just say, oh,
512
00:26:05.880 --> 00:26:08.960
we're following the story. Is it unfolded. That's not at
513
00:26:08.960 --> 00:26:11.920
all what I believe happened. But that's just my opinion too.
514
00:26:12.160 --> 00:26:14.279
I mean from listening to many many phone calls.
515
00:26:14.599 --> 00:26:16.799
Yeah, they went out they went out to the media
516
00:26:16.839 --> 00:26:19.240
and actually said, hey, we didn't care how it went
517
00:26:19.319 --> 00:26:22.000
either way, and it was very very clear from their
518
00:26:22.039 --> 00:26:23.559
prison phone call, So that was a lie.
519
00:26:23.799 --> 00:26:27.640
Making a murderer tries to theorize that there are other
520
00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:30.000
people involved and try to point to those people in
521
00:26:30.119 --> 00:26:33.400
this documentary Esewn there does it in the second season.
522
00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:37.000
But what about Bobby Dacy and Brendan Dacy. What does
523
00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:40.079
this Convicting a Murderer documentary series.
524
00:26:40.119 --> 00:26:40.640
Have to say?
525
00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:44.240
Well, sonswer Dan, we don't get too much into Bobby
526
00:26:44.319 --> 00:26:48.000
Dancy or it's more of Zeller's theory. But I'll tell
527
00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:51.000
you one thing that I've said in another podcast too,
528
00:26:51.240 --> 00:26:54.160
is that when Kathleen took the case, I want to
529
00:26:54.240 --> 00:26:56.079
just point this out for people that are underware, and
530
00:26:56.119 --> 00:26:58.680
these aren't her words exactly. And I think she then
531
00:26:58.720 --> 00:27:01.039
said the same season too, but I heard it on
532
00:27:01.119 --> 00:27:04.759
the interview she did. Stephen Avery was writing along with
533
00:27:04.880 --> 00:27:07.920
his fiance at the time, Sander Greenman. They were writing
534
00:27:08.079 --> 00:27:11.799
to Kathleen Zohler for a while prior to Making a
535
00:27:11.920 --> 00:27:15.880
Murder Right, and I think she rejected him. Was maybe
536
00:27:16.039 --> 00:27:18.160
his last letter to her was maybe around a couple
537
00:27:18.279 --> 00:27:22.960
months before making murder aired, and Kathleen and her team
538
00:27:23.559 --> 00:27:27.079
turned down taking that case because she felt that there
539
00:27:27.160 --> 00:27:29.319
was too much evidence that they wouldn't be able to
540
00:27:29.359 --> 00:27:30.920
you know, she didn't say it was guilty or anything,
541
00:27:31.000 --> 00:27:32.640
but she just said there was too much evidence that
542
00:27:32.839 --> 00:27:36.000
it didn't meet their criteria. They had like a little
543
00:27:36.039 --> 00:27:39.359
you know, algorithm or whatnot that they would calculate if
544
00:27:39.440 --> 00:27:42.759
this was a case that could be won. And after
545
00:27:42.880 --> 00:27:47.200
making a murder within days, she was tweeting and reached
546
00:27:47.200 --> 00:27:49.359
out to Sander Greenman and said I want this case,
547
00:27:49.400 --> 00:27:51.680
and in return, of course, that's how that all came about.
548
00:27:51.799 --> 00:27:54.440
But she had never even met with Stephen. She had
549
00:27:54.519 --> 00:27:57.880
never met with him prior to publicly stating she's taken
550
00:27:57.920 --> 00:28:01.359
the case. And I remember thinking, well, how yeah, I've
551
00:28:01.400 --> 00:28:03.440
been studying this at this point for quite a while,
552
00:28:03.559 --> 00:28:05.599
not that long, but I've been studying this. I'm just
553
00:28:05.680 --> 00:28:08.680
kind of curious on what she could have found that quickly.
554
00:28:09.279 --> 00:28:11.279
So I was a little bit shocked after that, but
555
00:28:11.359 --> 00:28:13.480
I think that's something she says publicly, so I'm not
556
00:28:13.640 --> 00:28:16.880
afraid to share her thoughts on that. But as far
557
00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:20.839
as Bobby Dascy, he was the second person after her
558
00:28:20.920 --> 00:28:25.799
first allegation was against Ryan Hiligas, and in another podcast,
559
00:28:25.839 --> 00:28:27.519
like I said, I pointed out some of the things
560
00:28:27.599 --> 00:28:32.400
that were in her initial filing of Ryman Hiligas, and
561
00:28:32.480 --> 00:28:34.559
one of those was that he had scratches on his
562
00:28:34.720 --> 00:28:38.799
hands and that the expert and expert filed an AFFI
563
00:28:38.920 --> 00:28:43.000
David On behalf of that evidence that she had these
564
00:28:43.359 --> 00:28:46.440
scratches on her hand, or he had these scratches on
565
00:28:46.559 --> 00:28:48.400
his hand, and they would have been defense wounds, and
566
00:28:48.519 --> 00:28:51.119
Teresa Hallback's fingernails would have been the right link to
567
00:28:51.359 --> 00:28:55.160
cause wows and long the whole that turns out to
568
00:28:55.240 --> 00:28:57.319
be writing on his hands.
569
00:28:58.160 --> 00:29:00.519
So I was able to find news footage proved that
570
00:29:00.799 --> 00:29:01.799
that was handwriting.
571
00:29:01.960 --> 00:29:05.000
He wrote on his hands, and literally in the affidavit
572
00:29:05.079 --> 00:29:10.119
from an expert was saying that these were defensive wounds
573
00:29:10.160 --> 00:29:12.559
from the victim. And that was evidence that was used
574
00:29:12.599 --> 00:29:15.640
in her brief to try to get evidentry hearing for
575
00:29:16.319 --> 00:29:19.319
you know, Ryan Hilligas and for Stephen Avery and Ryan
576
00:29:19.400 --> 00:29:23.640
Hiligis was this potential suspect. So that alarms me. That
577
00:29:23.920 --> 00:29:27.119
alarmed me simply because I don't know how the defense
578
00:29:27.200 --> 00:29:30.799
system works. You have to represent your client zealously. I
579
00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:33.440
understand that, but I didn't realize it could cross into
580
00:29:33.519 --> 00:29:36.119
things like that. So I was very much taken them
581
00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:37.759
back by things like that. But then when it went
582
00:29:37.880 --> 00:29:41.960
to Bobby, look at all the damage that caused Ryan Hilligos.
583
00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:44.839
So that frustrated me that you can just throw off
584
00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:47.279
these people and basically have all these people and even
585
00:29:47.359 --> 00:29:51.519
today blaming Ryan Hilligas and coming up these crazy theories
586
00:29:52.079 --> 00:29:54.319
and now, oh, we just moved on to Bobby Dassy.
587
00:29:55.160 --> 00:29:56.960
By the way, it has never had a criminal thing
588
00:29:57.079 --> 00:30:00.480
in his life. He's married, and so what I don't
589
00:30:00.519 --> 00:30:03.640
understand is they're blaming all this computer stuff on Bobby.
590
00:30:04.079 --> 00:30:06.680
What I also pointed out is that how did Stephen
591
00:30:06.759 --> 00:30:08.880
Avery know what was on that computer?
592
00:30:09.319 --> 00:30:11.920
Because Dan, we don't talk about this in the film,
593
00:30:12.279 --> 00:30:15.720
but on the day that the officers went to collect
594
00:30:16.240 --> 00:30:21.359
Barb's computer, the Dasy computer, Stephen called Barb and said,
595
00:30:21.559 --> 00:30:23.200
are my attorneys there?
596
00:30:23.920 --> 00:30:25.799
And she said, no, they're left.
597
00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:28.799
They're gone, he's gone, he's up by mas or they're
598
00:30:28.799 --> 00:30:31.960
gone or whatever gone from her house. And he said,
599
00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:34.519
did they take the computer? And she said no, the
600
00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:36.920
other assholes got it, meaning the officers.
601
00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:38.200
So what happened.
602
00:30:38.240 --> 00:30:42.240
After doing all this research, I found that Stephen actually
603
00:30:42.319 --> 00:30:46.319
told Dean Strang about the computer Barb's computer and he
604
00:30:46.519 --> 00:30:49.519
sent them there to get it. And there are other
605
00:30:49.640 --> 00:30:52.519
phone calls that represent that Stephen knew exactly what was
606
00:30:52.559 --> 00:30:55.319
on that computer. So my feeling on it is, well,
607
00:30:55.359 --> 00:30:57.559
how do you know what's on that computer? And how
608
00:30:57.680 --> 00:31:00.920
can you say that those are all Bobby Dacies searches
609
00:31:01.160 --> 00:31:01.759
And you can't.
610
00:31:02.400 --> 00:31:02.839
You can't.
611
00:31:03.279 --> 00:31:07.400
There's been intensive studies on that, and I'm not going
612
00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:09.160
to get into that because I don't want to share
613
00:31:09.319 --> 00:31:12.319
anything that hasn't been proven yet or hasn't been shared yet.
614
00:31:12.799 --> 00:31:15.519
But there has been studies that can actually prove that
615
00:31:15.640 --> 00:31:18.680
Bobby Dassy was not the only one that could have
616
00:31:18.759 --> 00:31:21.519
been doing those searches at that time. So I also
617
00:31:21.599 --> 00:31:24.720
think it's dangerous to what's happening to Bobby Dassy to
618
00:31:24.920 --> 00:31:28.799
just throw these allegations all it just to get you
619
00:31:28.839 --> 00:31:31.519
don't have to do as much as has been done,
620
00:31:32.119 --> 00:31:34.440
and I'm very skeptical of where it's going to go.
621
00:31:34.839 --> 00:31:37.880
But she's representing her client the way she's required and
622
00:31:38.119 --> 00:31:41.680
is able to, so we'll see where it goes. But
623
00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:43.359
I do have a lot of feelings on it, but
624
00:31:43.400 --> 00:31:45.839
I won't get into those obviously right now because she
625
00:31:46.000 --> 00:31:49.079
is a great tourney she knows what she's doing and
626
00:31:49.200 --> 00:31:52.240
I'm not so my opinion probably doesn't mean much in
627
00:31:52.359 --> 00:31:54.839
that aspect, but I just, like I said, the Ryan
628
00:31:54.920 --> 00:31:58.039
thing just kind of hurts. It breaks my hired that
629
00:31:58.160 --> 00:32:01.079
somebody can be blamed and then they're the new flavor
630
00:32:01.240 --> 00:32:03.400
or the old flavor. Now we're moving on to the
631
00:32:03.440 --> 00:32:06.200
new flavor, and I don't think it's going to go anywhere.
632
00:32:06.480 --> 00:32:10.240
She really has nothing left. The person that has the
633
00:32:10.359 --> 00:32:14.279
most recent appeal right now that is sitting well, they're
634
00:32:14.279 --> 00:32:17.400
waiting for her. She requested to have more time, and
635
00:32:17.559 --> 00:32:19.640
I think it's middle of December or something. I could
636
00:32:19.680 --> 00:32:22.000
be wrong on that, but middle of December this year
637
00:32:22.079 --> 00:32:26.160
she has to add something. And my understanding is that
638
00:32:26.319 --> 00:32:29.359
it's the only thing left is these two people that
639
00:32:29.519 --> 00:32:33.920
supposedly saw Bobby right pushing the rat right, and one
640
00:32:34.039 --> 00:32:38.200
of them in this guy's first statement in twenty sixteen,
641
00:32:38.359 --> 00:32:41.680
this guy that saw this his first email that was
642
00:32:41.759 --> 00:32:44.799
apparently sent to the innocents team or his attorneys at
643
00:32:44.839 --> 00:32:47.279
the time, whoever this guy sent him to.
644
00:32:48.000 --> 00:32:49.599
I'm not going to say his name, but you can
645
00:32:49.799 --> 00:32:51.839
figure out who the person was.
646
00:32:52.119 --> 00:32:55.359
I don't want to alligate anything, but this person said
647
00:32:55.359 --> 00:32:59.240
that he saw Bobby pushing the rat, right, that's what's
648
00:32:59.240 --> 00:33:01.200
in the fi David and this other guy. But his
649
00:33:01.319 --> 00:33:03.720
original statement, he didn't even know what day it was,
650
00:33:04.599 --> 00:33:07.480
and he also didn't know who the person was, and
651
00:33:07.680 --> 00:33:10.960
he never saw the passenger. So then once he went
652
00:33:11.039 --> 00:33:14.720
to Zelner and Zehner's f A David's stated that now
653
00:33:14.799 --> 00:33:17.160
he did know what day it was, and it was
654
00:33:17.319 --> 00:33:20.400
Bobby Dassy because he recognized him from making a murder too,
655
00:33:21.240 --> 00:33:23.519
and that the second person who he just said he
656
00:33:23.640 --> 00:33:26.599
never saw before, the second person in the vehicle was
657
00:33:26.680 --> 00:33:29.119
actually you know, an older man or something, or it
658
00:33:29.200 --> 00:33:31.680
was something like that like he described the second passenger.
659
00:33:33.279 --> 00:33:38.119
So there's there is conflicting information in original statements and
660
00:33:39.079 --> 00:33:42.559
what's being filed, right, So that's where the research comes
661
00:33:42.599 --> 00:33:46.400
in and looking into all of that. So I do
662
00:33:46.559 --> 00:33:49.720
have concerns, but that's what's left right now of her filing.
663
00:33:49.839 --> 00:33:52.519
And then this other person that apparently saw Bobby Gassy
664
00:33:52.640 --> 00:33:54.599
driving the rab and he just remembers his years and
665
00:33:54.680 --> 00:33:59.640
years later, has no connection to avery supposedly was seen
666
00:34:00.119 --> 00:34:05.000
at a rally, and there's text messages is just showing
667
00:34:05.079 --> 00:34:10.400
that he supported Stephen. So now he's out these rallies
668
00:34:10.960 --> 00:34:15.199
and for Stephen Avery, and he's on video supporting Stephen Avery,
669
00:34:15.480 --> 00:34:18.000
but yet you have no connection to him in the
670
00:34:18.039 --> 00:34:18.719
Saffiday there.
671
00:34:19.360 --> 00:34:21.079
Let's use this as an opportunity to stop for a
672
00:34:21.159 --> 00:34:22.719
second to hear these messages.
673
00:34:23.840 --> 00:34:29.639
Okay, Round two, Name something that's not boring. Laundry, a
674
00:34:29.719 --> 00:34:35.760
book club, computer solitaire. Huh oh, sorry, we were looking
675
00:34:35.840 --> 00:34:37.679
for chumba casino.
676
00:34:38.760 --> 00:34:39.000
Chum.
677
00:34:39.480 --> 00:34:42.320
That's right, chumbucasino dot com as over one hundred casino
678
00:34:42.400 --> 00:34:44.719
style games joined today and play for free for your
679
00:34:44.800 --> 00:34:46.599
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680
00:34:47.760 --> 00:34:52.320
Chump chumbacasino dot com eighty plus stars. The condition of
681
00:34:52.320 --> 00:34:53.239
the Blue website retails.
682
00:34:54.960 --> 00:34:57.840
Now you're speaking about the best strategy for Zell there
683
00:34:57.880 --> 00:35:02.320
as an attorney trying to get this post conviction reversal
684
00:35:02.599 --> 00:35:06.159
for her client and doing so, as you say, she
685
00:35:06.360 --> 00:35:10.800
just will accuse somebody like Ryan Hilligis of being involved,
686
00:35:11.320 --> 00:35:13.880
because that's the best strategy, said, she mentions it. This
687
00:35:13.960 --> 00:35:16.960
is the best strategy for her as an attorney. Yes, Now,
688
00:35:17.119 --> 00:35:21.440
with this narrative of this film, Sean, you're the director, Brenda,
689
00:35:21.480 --> 00:35:24.320
you're the producer. You're not going to resort to the
690
00:35:24.400 --> 00:35:29.480
same strategy. You're not advocating for a particular person. But
691
00:35:29.599 --> 00:35:33.440
what is the narrative overall in this docuseries?
692
00:35:33.760 --> 00:35:36.119
Well, I think the narrative is that Well, I think
693
00:35:36.159 --> 00:35:39.480
that the takeaway is, you know, don't trust anything you see.
694
00:35:39.719 --> 00:35:42.840
Won't even trust us. Check it out, go to backup sources,
695
00:35:43.400 --> 00:35:46.840
do your own research, because while it's implicit that you're
696
00:35:46.880 --> 00:35:49.800
watching facts when you watch a documentary or a docuseries,
697
00:35:49.920 --> 00:35:52.000
you're not. People can have a point of view, could
698
00:35:52.000 --> 00:35:54.920
have been paid for by somebody. I think that my goal,
699
00:35:55.119 --> 00:35:58.159
my end goal was for our industry to create a
700
00:35:58.280 --> 00:36:02.559
set of voluntary, the cool standards by which we abide
701
00:36:02.920 --> 00:36:05.360
so that we don't lose credibility. Is our business is
702
00:36:05.400 --> 00:36:07.400
in a pretty good place. Documentaries are a lot more
703
00:36:07.480 --> 00:36:09.199
popular than they used to be. But we're going to
704
00:36:09.280 --> 00:36:11.880
mess it up for ourselves if we don't tell the truth.
705
00:36:12.119 --> 00:36:15.440
And when this series was announced, a lot of people
706
00:36:15.639 --> 00:36:19.320
who were subjects of other series approached us and said, hey,
707
00:36:19.639 --> 00:36:22.159
this was done to us by so and so, and
708
00:36:22.239 --> 00:36:23.960
they wanted us to turn this into a kind of
709
00:36:24.119 --> 00:36:26.679
like you know, mentioning five six seven projects and we
710
00:36:26.760 --> 00:36:28.760
decided not to do it. But there's a lot of
711
00:36:28.840 --> 00:36:32.079
this going around in which people feel very very much
712
00:36:32.440 --> 00:36:35.159
victimized by serious that they participated in.
713
00:36:35.440 --> 00:36:40.320
Let's talk about those voluntary ethical standards that you propose. Specifically,
714
00:36:40.679 --> 00:36:41.639
give us an example.
715
00:36:41.800 --> 00:36:44.840
If it's an advocacy piece, as Brenda said earlier, say
716
00:36:44.880 --> 00:36:47.880
it's an advocacy piece, so you know, we think Stephen
717
00:36:47.920 --> 00:36:51.599
Avery and Brendan Dassy didn't do this, and we're setting
718
00:36:51.639 --> 00:36:53.880
out to show you why if it's not the case
719
00:36:53.920 --> 00:36:56.920
with this film. But if somebody funded the film, who's
720
00:36:57.000 --> 00:36:59.320
involved in the issue in any way, that has to
721
00:36:59.400 --> 00:37:03.360
be disclosed. If you pay subjects, that has to be disclosed.
722
00:37:03.480 --> 00:37:05.840
We did pay some of the subjects in this film
723
00:37:05.960 --> 00:37:09.079
for exclusivity, so they wouldn't do any other projects. Those
724
00:37:09.119 --> 00:37:11.679
are the things that I think warrant a fore warning
725
00:37:11.719 --> 00:37:14.400
when you're watching a series, so that you know it's
726
00:37:14.519 --> 00:37:17.039
very clear and transparent to people what you're setting out
727
00:37:17.079 --> 00:37:17.239
to do.
728
00:37:17.719 --> 00:37:18.079
Not that.
729
00:37:18.800 --> 00:37:21.239
What we point out in our docuseriies is that the
730
00:37:21.280 --> 00:37:24.760
first documentary ever made nan Nuke of the North, which
731
00:37:24.800 --> 00:37:26.840
has made you know, one hundred and ten years ago
732
00:37:27.440 --> 00:37:32.199
was a fraud. It was fake. So, as Patricia Afterraheide,
733
00:37:32.280 --> 00:37:37.239
a professor from American University, says, the history of documentaries
734
00:37:37.280 --> 00:37:41.840
and docuseries is shot through with these ethical problems, and
735
00:37:42.400 --> 00:37:45.440
we need to fix it by telling the truth when
736
00:37:45.519 --> 00:37:45.920
we start.
737
00:37:46.159 --> 00:37:48.920
You talked about that you couldn't get this film made
738
00:37:49.199 --> 00:37:52.840
through ordinary channels, and you talked about why. But tell
739
00:37:52.920 --> 00:37:56.360
us again what their criticism was, and if you've had
740
00:37:56.400 --> 00:37:58.800
any criticism so far with the series.
741
00:37:58.960 --> 00:38:01.639
We would deal with a buy like a major streamer,
742
00:38:01.760 --> 00:38:05.360
and they'd say this isn't for us or nobody cares
743
00:38:05.400 --> 00:38:08.039
about this case anymore, which is not true. Over one
744
00:38:08.079 --> 00:38:12.079
hundred million people watch this I've been flown to Oslo, Norway,
745
00:38:12.280 --> 00:38:14.360
just to give an update on this case. You know,
746
00:38:14.480 --> 00:38:16.599
the people all over the world care about this case.
747
00:38:16.719 --> 00:38:18.840
A great deal. We were very close to a deal
748
00:38:18.920 --> 00:38:22.000
with a major competitor of Netflix and they and they
749
00:38:22.079 --> 00:38:24.679
don't care about upsetting them. But they were like, yeah,
750
00:38:24.719 --> 00:38:26.559
we feel like this is their brand. We feel like
751
00:38:26.840 --> 00:38:29.199
we're nipping their brand, so we're not going to do it.
752
00:38:29.719 --> 00:38:32.199
That was another criticism we got. But you know the
753
00:38:32.320 --> 00:38:34.599
fact is they weren't going to tell the truth. They
754
00:38:34.679 --> 00:38:37.599
weren't going to implicate themselves in this, but we allege
755
00:38:37.639 --> 00:38:40.880
as a lie, so somebody else had to air it.
756
00:38:41.440 --> 00:38:44.760
So that's the sort of thing we ran into almost everywhere.
757
00:38:44.800 --> 00:38:48.320
I met with an agent, a huge documentary agent in
758
00:38:48.519 --> 00:38:53.320
Los Angeles, and he said his exact quote was, dude,
759
00:38:53.519 --> 00:38:54.880
I have to work in this town.
760
00:38:55.039 --> 00:38:55.239
Wow.
761
00:38:55.440 --> 00:38:55.599
You know.
762
00:38:55.840 --> 00:38:58.880
And my longtime agents in New York who represented everything
763
00:38:58.920 --> 00:39:01.119
I've done, they co produce Netflix all the time. They
764
00:39:01.119 --> 00:39:04.559
wouldn't even talk about this project with me. They don't,
765
00:39:04.599 --> 00:39:07.280
you know, this is all about self preservation. So it
766
00:39:07.480 --> 00:39:10.159
just I'm not trying to pat myself on the back,
767
00:39:10.199 --> 00:39:14.159
but I'm saying it takes some strength and some courage
768
00:39:14.400 --> 00:39:16.280
to tell this sort of a story. And then that's
769
00:39:16.280 --> 00:39:18.599
what the Daily Wire had. They had the courage to
770
00:39:19.000 --> 00:39:22.800
take this on. They couldn't care less about criticism from Hollywood.
771
00:39:23.119 --> 00:39:26.639
What are the biggest things featured in this We talked
772
00:39:26.679 --> 00:39:29.639
about that, of course, blood is so important. You talked
773
00:39:29.679 --> 00:39:32.239
about the mixing. They said, well, well it wasn't mixed.
774
00:39:32.599 --> 00:39:36.960
What are some of the featured things, the biggest featured
775
00:39:37.239 --> 00:39:38.719
things in this docu series.
776
00:39:38.880 --> 00:39:41.000
I'll start with this. A lot of people don't know
777
00:39:41.119 --> 00:39:45.280
Stephen Avery's background, and if you understood his history, it
778
00:39:45.320 --> 00:39:47.960
would paint a little bit different picture on whether it's
779
00:39:48.400 --> 00:39:51.679
plausible that he could do this, whether he can actually
780
00:39:52.159 --> 00:39:54.320
want to do something like this. If you understood his
781
00:39:54.440 --> 00:39:57.920
history with violence, his history with women, is inability to
782
00:39:57.960 --> 00:40:01.039
control himself sexually, you'd have a a little more background
783
00:40:01.519 --> 00:40:05.760
on whether someone would be capable of committing this crime. Also,
784
00:40:05.960 --> 00:40:08.480
you know, why would someone throw away millions of dollars
785
00:40:08.519 --> 00:40:11.599
of settlement money by taking this sort of risk. You're
786
00:40:11.639 --> 00:40:14.679
going to see a person who has the inability to
787
00:40:14.760 --> 00:40:17.920
differ gratification. And we paint that picture. It doesn't mean
788
00:40:18.039 --> 00:40:21.039
that doesn't mean he murdered somebody, Okay, but you need
789
00:40:21.079 --> 00:40:23.840
to at least be informed, yes, of who he actually is.
790
00:40:24.119 --> 00:40:27.519
It's not Stevie stole a cheese sandwich and five dollars.
791
00:40:27.599 --> 00:40:30.320
That wasn't the real history of Steven Avery. And that's
792
00:40:30.360 --> 00:40:33.360
the way the filmmakers and Making a Murderer portrayed him.
793
00:40:33.960 --> 00:40:36.159
It just wasn't true. So we dedicate like two and
794
00:40:36.199 --> 00:40:38.440
a half episodes to that, And I think it's very
795
00:40:38.480 --> 00:40:41.800
important to have that background and that backdrop when considering
796
00:40:41.840 --> 00:40:42.719
who this person is.
797
00:40:43.039 --> 00:40:47.360
What do the filmmakers of making a murderer specifically the
798
00:40:47.440 --> 00:40:50.079
biggest thing that they omit in their films?
799
00:40:50.400 --> 00:40:53.239
Go ahead, Brenda, I think the biggest thing, and that's
800
00:40:53.280 --> 00:40:55.760
hard to say because there's some pretty big edits, but
801
00:40:55.920 --> 00:40:57.880
as I said, most of them are all these slics
802
00:40:57.920 --> 00:40:59.760
of hand. But I think though one of the biggest
803
00:40:59.760 --> 00:41:05.079
act comes up is probably Andy Colburn's dispatch. Paul. I
804
00:41:05.119 --> 00:41:06.639
don't know if you're were of that down, but in
805
00:41:06.679 --> 00:41:10.320
a nutshell, one of the officers made this call and
806
00:41:10.639 --> 00:41:13.440
they alleged that he had found her vehicle, and of
807
00:41:13.559 --> 00:41:17.079
course Cancrat subjects to it, but they never see that.
808
00:41:17.960 --> 00:41:19.960
And I'm gonna just say this too now.
809
00:41:20.079 --> 00:41:23.159
You know, Andy Colburn filed a lawsuit and that was
810
00:41:23.239 --> 00:41:26.599
one of the main reasons was because they changed his
811
00:41:26.760 --> 00:41:29.760
answer to a question that was never or was never answered.
812
00:41:29.840 --> 00:41:30.920
There was an objection, right.
813
00:41:31.360 --> 00:41:34.800
So when we obtained the trial footage through the licensing
814
00:41:35.000 --> 00:41:38.280
license and the child footage, we noticed and again this
815
00:41:38.400 --> 00:41:40.599
had been found online a little bit already, but they
816
00:41:40.639 --> 00:41:42.840
didn't have access to all the trial footage. So when
817
00:41:42.880 --> 00:41:45.320
we were going through and looking at the tilefoodage and
818
00:41:45.400 --> 00:41:49.960
comparing it and saw these different reaction shots we were
819
00:41:50.039 --> 00:41:53.400
shot that they were inserting these the same shot three
820
00:41:53.440 --> 00:41:57.800
different times, and that edit, along with other things that
821
00:41:57.920 --> 00:42:01.880
were said in Making a Murder, caused Andy Colburn to
822
00:42:03.480 --> 00:42:07.800
receive a lot of threats and for manas Quack also,
823
00:42:08.199 --> 00:42:11.559
So we call out that as probably the biggest edit
824
00:42:11.800 --> 00:42:15.800
or the most impactful edit the Andy Colburn. But of
825
00:42:15.880 --> 00:42:18.599
course there's many other little things not Making Your Murders
826
00:42:18.599 --> 00:42:22.519
showed about Andy Colburn that we also go through. But
827
00:42:22.599 --> 00:42:26.280
I would say of the film overall, is probably that one,
828
00:42:26.960 --> 00:42:31.320
but there are several other larger ones like that. One
829
00:42:31.360 --> 00:42:34.679
of them is the bullet. They took a sentence and
830
00:42:34.760 --> 00:42:37.440
spliced it into another sentence because you didn't hear in
831
00:42:37.559 --> 00:42:40.840
Making a Murder that the gun that the bullet came
832
00:42:40.920 --> 00:42:44.519
from La Teresa's DNA on matched the bed or the
833
00:42:45.079 --> 00:42:48.719
gun hanging up of Steven Avery's bed, and it matched
834
00:42:48.760 --> 00:42:52.599
it to the exclusion of all other guns in the world,
835
00:42:53.639 --> 00:42:58.679
so it was legitimately that gun. And they edited the
836
00:42:59.639 --> 00:43:03.519
vc I agent's testimony to say that they found this
837
00:43:03.679 --> 00:43:07.960
bullet and it was damaged basically or flattened. And I
838
00:43:08.159 --> 00:43:10.920
alleged when we were going through these edits that the
839
00:43:10.960 --> 00:43:12.880
reason they did that is because they didn't want to
840
00:43:12.960 --> 00:43:17.800
address ballistics testing, because ballistics testing was done and ballistics
841
00:43:17.880 --> 00:43:20.760
testing showed it was that Gune hanging above is that.
842
00:43:21.400 --> 00:43:24.119
So that was kind of my theory on why they
843
00:43:24.199 --> 00:43:27.239
didn't want that. But they literally had him say, well,
844
00:43:27.320 --> 00:43:31.480
the bullet was nearly intact. They inserted the information from
845
00:43:31.519 --> 00:43:34.639
a different bullet they found that said it was a
846
00:43:34.760 --> 00:43:38.519
flattened bullet, it was too damaged basically, so things like that.
847
00:43:38.800 --> 00:43:42.199
But that's how they were able to omit key evidence
848
00:43:42.440 --> 00:43:44.840
and it added to testimony to be able to do
849
00:43:45.000 --> 00:43:45.559
that well.
850
00:43:45.599 --> 00:43:48.760
And that's just really dishonest to me because you can
851
00:43:48.880 --> 00:43:50.079
see the edit.
852
00:43:50.239 --> 00:43:54.760
I mean, it's literally obvious you're taking words that say
853
00:43:54.840 --> 00:43:58.119
something completely opposite. So that was another one that stood
854
00:43:58.159 --> 00:44:00.519
out to me. But again there's a lot of ones
855
00:44:01.199 --> 00:44:03.519
that you really don't catch. Oh oh in another one too,
856
00:44:04.239 --> 00:44:08.320
Manuchwac's role in this. Everybody makes this big deal about
857
00:44:08.360 --> 00:44:11.599
MANUFAC being involved. Do I think they should have been?
858
00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:15.360
Heck no, I think we wouldn't be here today if
859
00:44:15.440 --> 00:44:15.920
they weren't.
860
00:44:16.159 --> 00:44:16.880
Absolutely not.
861
00:44:17.480 --> 00:44:19.440
But you know, I think we explained that pretty well,
862
00:44:19.679 --> 00:44:22.159
and I think some of the officers even probably would
863
00:44:22.199 --> 00:44:23.800
say yeah, you know, I find people back in time
864
00:44:24.599 --> 00:44:27.039
not want to be there, but they did what they
865
00:44:27.159 --> 00:44:29.320
believed they needed to do. And everybody thinks that you
866
00:44:29.360 --> 00:44:31.559
have all these resources like Candace site, you have all
867
00:44:31.599 --> 00:44:35.559
these resources, it's are really small charfs departments and caliu
868
00:44:35.639 --> 00:44:40.320
Met is tiny. The lead investigation unit is really small
869
00:44:40.480 --> 00:44:44.280
compared to Manuswac County. So they they're touched rual people.
870
00:44:44.599 --> 00:44:47.639
I mean that's what they are mainly. And the officers
871
00:44:47.679 --> 00:44:50.320
from Mantuac they have investigators, they have detectives.
872
00:44:50.400 --> 00:44:52.639
It's several of them, so of course they're going to
873
00:44:52.679 --> 00:44:53.239
bring them in.
874
00:44:53.800 --> 00:44:58.960
But conflict of interests the perception of it, we're going
875
00:44:59.079 --> 00:45:03.920
to ensure that DCI is with them or a Calumet
876
00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:05.480
officer at all times.
877
00:45:05.719 --> 00:45:08.599
So that's how they prevented that. But what people don't
878
00:45:08.639 --> 00:45:11.360
realize when they talk about, oh the coroner was pushed away,
879
00:45:11.599 --> 00:45:14.320
she wasn't allowed. Well, she was a Manutwac person, so
880
00:45:14.400 --> 00:45:16.360
of course she's going to be. But then why would
881
00:45:16.400 --> 00:45:19.159
she not allow the Colburn and Length work. Well, because
882
00:45:19.199 --> 00:45:20.559
they're not elected officials.
883
00:45:21.079 --> 00:45:24.199
Anybody that was an elected official and a boss, the
884
00:45:24.320 --> 00:45:30.840
prosecutor the sheriff, the corporate council. They all recused themselves.
885
00:45:31.719 --> 00:45:33.599
No one told them they had to do that. They
886
00:45:33.760 --> 00:45:36.559
made that decision. If they were going to frame Avery,
887
00:45:37.119 --> 00:45:40.039
hey let's just keep the investigation. Why would we hand
888
00:45:40.079 --> 00:45:43.239
it over? It was their choice. And there's press conferences
889
00:45:43.639 --> 00:45:47.079
that we show in convicting that making the murder just
890
00:45:47.159 --> 00:45:51.519
showed the one, you know resources, we used them for equipment.
891
00:45:52.360 --> 00:45:56.800
There's other press conferences prior to that that include Manutwac
892
00:45:56.960 --> 00:45:58.400
and Calumet's investigation.
893
00:45:58.840 --> 00:46:00.880
So we play each of those clips of books or
894
00:46:00.920 --> 00:46:01.760
can kind of see that?
895
00:46:02.119 --> 00:46:04.119
I mean, really, I think the whole thing overall it
896
00:46:04.239 --> 00:46:06.239
was like you're giving a piece of evidence, and I
897
00:46:06.320 --> 00:46:09.199
could tell you how it was portrayed there and what
898
00:46:09.400 --> 00:46:12.480
the real evidence show us. If every piece there was
899
00:46:12.559 --> 00:46:15.079
something done to every piece of evidence to make you
900
00:46:15.360 --> 00:46:17.840
believe it was anybody but Steven Avery.
901
00:46:18.039 --> 00:46:20.440
Let's Jesus as an opportunity to stop for these messages,
902
00:46:20.800 --> 00:46:22.360
step into the world of.
903
00:46:22.639 --> 00:46:26.559
Power, loyalty, and luck. I'm going to make him an
904
00:46:26.599 --> 00:46:32.000
offer you can't refuse. With family canoli's and spins mean everything?
905
00:46:32.159 --> 00:46:34.760
Now you want to get mixed up in the family business.
906
00:46:34.960 --> 00:46:39.880
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908
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909
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Play the Godfather now at Champacasino dot com.
911
00:46:49.039 --> 00:46:51.320
Welcome to the Family vdW group.
912
00:46:51.400 --> 00:46:53.119
No perch is necessary if we we're privited by loss
913
00:46:53.119 --> 00:46:57.280
he terms and conditions eighteen plus Now this series.
914
00:46:57.559 --> 00:47:01.360
Tell us more about the episodes that have occurred already
915
00:47:01.599 --> 00:47:06.559
and how people can watch this docuseries. Tell us more
916
00:47:06.639 --> 00:47:09.760
information about Daily Wire plus and this series.
917
00:47:09.960 --> 00:47:12.639
Yeah, well, the first two episodes are free. You can
918
00:47:12.760 --> 00:47:17.079
watch episode one on x formerly Twitter or on YouTube.
919
00:47:17.280 --> 00:47:19.719
I think about twenty million people have watched it by
920
00:47:19.840 --> 00:47:22.960
now on those platforms, and the rest of it you
921
00:47:23.000 --> 00:47:25.000
can watch on the Daily Wire. It takes a little
922
00:47:25.039 --> 00:47:26.760
bit of searching, but there is a way to sign
923
00:47:26.840 --> 00:47:28.920
up for just a month, and if you sign up
924
00:47:28.960 --> 00:47:31.559
for that month, I think it's you know, twelve dollars
925
00:47:31.679 --> 00:47:34.440
or something. You can binge all ten episodes now and
926
00:47:34.679 --> 00:47:36.480
you know, next year there may be a few more
927
00:47:36.519 --> 00:47:39.519
ways to watch this series, but right now, the Daily
928
00:47:39.599 --> 00:47:40.559
Wire is the way to see it.
929
00:47:40.800 --> 00:47:42.599
I want to thank you both for coming on and
930
00:47:42.760 --> 00:47:47.000
talking about this new series Convicting a Murderer, You producer
931
00:47:47.159 --> 00:47:50.599
Brenda Schuler and you the director Sean Reck. I want
932
00:47:50.639 --> 00:47:53.800
to thank you very much for one more time. How
933
00:47:53.880 --> 00:47:58.159
do people find out and get involved with this docu series.
934
00:47:58.320 --> 00:48:03.159
We have a presence on on Twitter hashtag convict a Murderer.
935
00:48:03.320 --> 00:48:05.599
There's a Facebook page for the project. You can go
936
00:48:05.639 --> 00:48:08.800
to Transition Studios dot com and reach us through there,
937
00:48:09.159 --> 00:48:12.400
and uh, stay tuned for more news on other ways
938
00:48:12.440 --> 00:48:13.519
you can watch it in the future.
939
00:48:13.719 --> 00:48:16.320
Oh, thank you very much for coming on and talking
940
00:48:16.360 --> 00:48:19.840
about Convicting a Murder. Brenda Schuler and Sean Reck, thank
941
00:48:19.880 --> 00:48:21.679
you so much for this interview, and you have a
942
00:48:21.719 --> 00:48:24.440
great night and good night. Thanks Dan, Thank you, Dan,
943
00:48:24.639 --> 00:48:24.920
thank you.