16 - TruHoarding: Buried in Plain Sight

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In August of 2009, a series debuted on AE that featured a disorder known to many yet understood by few.
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The show was the first to highlight the extensive nature of the disorder and bring it into the mainstream media, but it was not the first time this disorder had caught the public's attention.
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On March 21st, 1947, police received a phone call from someone claiming they smelled decomposition emanating from nearby house.
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Police being unfamiliar with this particular home and its residents responded to the house and tried to enter.
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Unfortunately, the home was so full of clutter it took them five hours to find the cause of the smell, the decomposing body of Homer Collier.
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The medical examiner set out to conclude how Homer died while the police set out to find where its missing brother Langley was, a brother who had lived with and taken care of Homer for the past 14 years.
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Two weeks after finding Homer, they found Langley buried underneath the clutter that had accumulated all those years.
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Langley Collier had been crushed to death by the items in his house, and Homer had died from starvation because his brother could no longer take care of him.
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The brothers, due to their reclusive nature, had accumulated over 100 tons of junk, had lived for years without utilities such as electricity gas or running water, and had let the home fall its disrepair so much so that it had to be torn down, they become compulsive hoarders, and this disorder eventually killed them.
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Stay tuned to learn all about hoarding.
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From Civic Al, this is TrueCode, a podcast explaining what code enforcement is, why our communities need it, and why you should care.
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From firsthand experiences, we discuss quality of life issues to reveal the truth about code enforcement.
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Today I'm really super duper honored to have uh Matt Paxton with us.
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And not just because it's another Matt in the room and I always get excited with other Matt's, but um because Matt is one of the top downsizing and decluttering experts in the country.
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If you're like me, you've seen Matt on TV.
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Matt now is juggling two TV shows, but you probably know him originally from Hoarders.
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Uh, he's also hosting the two-time Emmy nominated series Legacy Liz, which I can't wait to get into, Matt, uh, on PBS.
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He was an extreme cleaner for a long time, as I mentioned, on Hoarders, and I've seen him there as well.
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Matt also is the author of a really interesting book, which has a really practical approach, which I appreciate.
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Keep the memories, lose the stuff, and is the founder of Clutter Cleaner, a nationwide company dedicated to helping families downsize and clean out their estates.
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One that our code enforcement listeners out there probably at some point in time, past, present, or future, will become familiar with.
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Matt started cleaning out houses after his father, his stepfather, and both grandfathers died in the same year.
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And that's the reason Matt has been working with families, I'd say in a pretty special way, struggling with hoarding and downsizing for over 20 years.
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That's a mouthful.
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Thanks, Matt.
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Thanks for joining us.
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Dude, thanks for having me.
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Sorry for the long bio.
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No, it's great.
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You know, I think uh hoarding is something extremely familiar for code enforcement.
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I've been, you know, I'm an attorney for code enforcement departments all over the state of California and volunteer on the governing body and do a lot of work with code people.
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And hoarding is something that we deal with every day.
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Is this a newer thing?
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I mean, obviously, our story goes back 80 years, but have you seen an uptick in hoarding over time?
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Yeah, I mean, I think there was probably, you know, a guy that had too many sticks in his cave at one point.
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Yeah, of course.
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It's an it's an American thing.
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I'll spin it a little bit.
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It's a very American thing.
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We do see it popping up in Asia now, we do see it popping up in Europe.
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But consumerism is is typically an American thing.
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I mean, what's really going on, I'll thumb it down, is you know, I've been lucky where, you know, when I started doing hoarding, like psychologically, it was a subset of OCD.
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That's where it was listed.
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It was not a part of the DSM 5.
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It was not listed as a protected mental disability.
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We thought it was a subset of OCD.
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You know, I was cleaning houses.
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I mean, I've been doing this 25 years now and 26 years, and I'm 50.
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So I was started when I was 24, so actually longer than than I haven't, which is crazy.
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But I kept having all these women that were, they all had the same traumas, you know, and I was just like, man, wait a minute.
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This lady was abused by her dad, and this lady was abused by her, but I was like, man, all these traumas are the same.
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I was like, are we tracking that?
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You know, and nobody was tracking it.
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And so what we really found out pretty quickly was that, you know, hoarding is caused by trauma.
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And it's basically someone's looking for happiness and self-worth in their stuff.
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No different than alcohol, no different than drugs, no different than gambling.
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I mean, I'll argue the biggest uptick we've seen in the last 10 years.
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Hoarding was really hot, man.
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It was really big in the early 2000s.
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And now, um, I mean, I got buddies that have had to start uh online pornography and online uh gaming, gaming uh like recovery groups because the kids are addicted to gambling and pornography.
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And so there's you we could we could I mean we could talk about the history of addiction, you know, all the way back into the 40s, but the reality is is people are looking for happiness and self-worth, and for the hoarders, they look for it in stuff.
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But what I will say, I've seen the consistencies is is that hoarders are incredibly intelligent, like insanely intelligent at a different level.
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They're smarter than you and me.
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Um, they're incredibly smart.
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They believe.
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Like I always compare hoarding to if you've I'm an Excel spreadsheet nerd, and so anyone that gets this, like Excel goes 85,000 lines up and down, 65,000 right to left.
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Google Sheets only goes 100 to the left, 100 to the right, up and down, 100.
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You and I are Google Sheets.
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A hoarder is an Excel spreadsheet, and they've gotta they know every single cell and they gotta check off each cell.
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And so, like, I want to really say that so that any any code enforcement listening or any traditional person just listening and trying to learn more about hoarding, you have to respect how smart this hoarder is.
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They're so much smarter than you and I.
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They work at a different level that that is why their house is such a mess, because they actually, their brain is so busy, it's so full.
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They're not messy, I mean, they are messy people, but it doesn't bother them.
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They're fine with it because they see the other side, which is, oh, I can use all this stuff and I can actually follow through and build something.
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And a lot of them can't because they're so damn smart.
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I had one lady, I'll never forget this lady.
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And by the way, I've been working with code enforcement since day one and had Rightco County, Virginia, Johnny Butler.
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If you're listening, Mr.
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Butler, he gave me my first hoarding job, and we we honestly we learned a lot about hoarding together, all of us did.
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And because we walk in these houses and it was just like, what is going on?
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It must have been crazy the first time you went into one.
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Oh, well, yeah.
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I mean, you don't know what it is.
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We didn't even know what the word hoarding was.
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Yeah, right.
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I had a lady early in my, you know, in the early, I would say probably first 10 years of my career.
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She had a house in Washington, DC.
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You could see the National Cathedral.
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I mean, a mil, you know, multi-million dollar home.
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Probably took, honestly, I probably took, I'm I'm listening, I'm going back to your call your brother story, who's obviously the most famous hoarders.
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That would not be in my top 50.
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100 tons is nothing.
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That's a Tuesday for me now, right?
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Like it's crazy when you think about it.
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Wow.
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Holy smokes.
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But this lady, we probably took about a hundred tons out of her house, maybe 60 or 70 tons out.
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But she had the same book in 10 different languages.
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All that I mean, she had multiple books in 10 different languages.
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And I said, I have to ask you the question, like respectfully, why do you have the same book?
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And she just looked at me and she goes, Well, sometimes poetry sounds better in Russian.
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And she thought I was an idiot for not knowing that.
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Let me say that again.
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Sometimes poetry sounds better in Russian.
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This woman not only read the poetry, she read it in 10 different languages, and she knew which one had the better word for it.
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Yeah.
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Think about how smart I struggle with one language, English.
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All right.
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I know about a hundred words and I know them really well.
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I mean, she was so adept in so many languages, she really understood the nuances of these words and enjoyed them at a different level than you or I can understand.
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I later found out she was a translator at the UN in the 70s.
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So she would hand translate 10 different languages, the grammar, like the secondary grammar.
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She would hand translate it on the fly.
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Like that's how smart these people are.
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So I really I'm spending a second on that because I want people to really respect what's going on.
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And uh the other side of this is like I I guess about 10 years ago, I really started realizing like, man, it's not that these people are loners or isolated or have no family.
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That's part of their trauma story.
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And so what I started to really respect was like, oh my gosh, these people came from actually big families, like lots of love.
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And so we used to just the whole rest of the world saying, You're gross, you know, you're something's wrong with you, you're disgusting.
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Your house is horrible.
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And really what we should be saying is, oh my God, you had a really cool family.
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Like, tell me about that family.
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And when I switched that mindset and the communication mindset to, all right, I want to hear all about, I'm not gonna talk about the mess.
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I want to hear all about the people behind the person behind the mess.
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When I started switching to that mindset, I started getting a lot more work done because the hoarder just wanted to be heard.
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They wanted to be treated like a regular person.
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And I'm I'm trying to humanize it a lot right off the bat here because like that is what's made my career very successful, is that we humanize, we humanize the crap out of these people.
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They're incredibly intelligent, they're very uh compassionate, they had huge families, that just something really bad happened to them.
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And I think we all can respect that.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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I know those are great points, Matt.
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I appreciate all of that.
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I remember the first time as a as I've been doing this 20 years, uh, the legal side and code enforcement stuff.
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And, you know, like anybody goes into code and probably you your first time, I went, what the hell is code enforcement?
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I had no idea what code enforcement was, they didn't really deal with it.
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And I remember starting out as a new lawyer, someone's like, We've got this guy, and uh the city issued a criminal citation form for hoarding.
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And I go to court and I'm thinking, okay, I'm just how am I gonna get this guy in compliance?
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And it took for even for a person who never really heard of hoarding before, it maybe took me a couple minutes to figure out this solution is not gonna be the solution because yeah, the pictures I kept seeing when we went and inspected this house were of his family.
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And it was like, well, I'm talking to you, I don't see in your family, it seemed like that there was trauma involved.
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Is that is that kind of always the source of hoarding?
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Always 100%.
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It's never about the stuff.
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If that's all anybody listening today takes, it's never about the stuff.
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There's something real that's happened.
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I mean, if you have a if you have a an uncle that's an alcoholic and you throw away all of his beer, it you solve the alcoholism.
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Right, absolutely right.
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No, you just pissed him off.
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You just pissed him off, he's gonna buy more beer.
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Same thing with the hoarder.
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If you do a like forced cleanouts are absolutely the most unsuccessful thing ever.
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Like, you know, and and then people don't always want to hear this, but like, like, I don't even at Clutter Cleaner, we will not clean out a hoarded house unless the person has gone to therapy.
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They have to go to some level of therapy because we have enough evidence over 20 years.
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The data tells us that if they don't go to therapy to deal with the actual trauma, then they will hoard again.
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Yeah, it's not a matter of if, it's when.
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And so we we think it's unethical to take their money because I mean family's paying us like, man, we gotta avoid, you know, eviction.
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So we're gonna pay you 30 grand.
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It's like, that's awesome.
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Let me talk to the city, let me talk to code enforcement, we'll work with them, we'll get an extended timeline.
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If they don't do therapy, there's no point in doing the queen out.
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It's just gonna pop up again.
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That's a great point, Matt.
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I mean, a lot of times in court, I'm looking for comprehensive solutions because we can get it cleaned up.
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We can get it cleaned up by force through a court order, but 100% it's gonna come back.
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Like anything, right?
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You keep picking a scab and you never deal with the underlying issue.
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It keeps coming back.
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On that note, um, what is the most difficult kind of hoarding that you've dealt with?
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Do they differ?
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Are there different kinds of hoarders or hoarding that you've dealt with?
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Yeah, oh god, yeah.
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Um, so I get I'll say I'll say this a careful way.
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There's a lot of misinformation about hoarders.
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They think it's like if you watch the TV show hoarders that I was on, I did that show for 15 years.
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And um, it looks like it's 65-year-old white women with cats.
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Like, that's what it looks like.
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And the cat thing is real.
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I will say that.
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Cats uh are symbolic to easy love.
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It's the most amount of love you can receive for the little amount of effort.
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A dog requires you got to pet them, you gotta take care of them, you gotta go feel a cat, man, cat can live on its own forever.
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I always thought, not to cut you off, man, but I always thought the cat was there because the rodent infestation that typically comes with the hoarding.
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Yeah, I think that's a bonus.
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Like you'll see these cats, like they look like Garfield.
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They're like flowing hair.
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They're so happy because they got unlimited rats.
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I mean, we get in a good hoarding situation, you're gonna have.
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I mean, I was just the one in San Antonio last week, and uh, we were filming, and there were so many rats, and then we were right on the San Antonio, uh, right, I mean, right on the water.
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There was rats, I mean, big, fat San Antonio rats.
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I mean, those were those are probably third to like Fresno and New York City.
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Wow, always bigger in Texas.
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Dude, they're insane.
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And these rats, there was just as many river snakes in this house.
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I mean, big black snakes in the house.
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Holy cow.
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So the fact that you've got rats and snakes living together healthily, happily, and cats, all like, we're good, dude.
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You take your side, I'll take mine.
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Like, it was an ecosystem, right?
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Like, you have to respect that.
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But like where nature takes over in this horde, like that's how long the horde's been there.
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That's how big it is.
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That's oh, it was mass.
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Oh, and cockroaches, probably 20 different cockroaches.
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This is I'm I'm probably gonna have some nightmare tonight, Matt, about this.
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It sounds like the third day in Egypt or something after, you know, when the Lord was punishing them, it's like, let there be a bloody river and then let the cockroaches and the rats come.
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It always feels like that that trash compactor scene in Star Wars, you know, when you're head high in it, you know.
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But yeah, but I back to the question, which is yeah, it's always, it's never about the stuff, it's always trauma-induced.
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Um, we found women are more likely to go through the embarrassment to get the help.
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So they will call code enforcement, they will call APS, they will reach out for help because they're willing to go through the shame to help their family.
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Men we typically get uh as estate cleanouts, which means what?
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They've died passed away.
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They died.
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Um, those are the easiest, and I'm not saying this to be rude.
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Dead hoarder is the easiest hoard to clean.
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Just because they're not in the way.
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They're not in the way, and they're and they're smarter than me.
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Like I cannot stress to you, I I doubt anyone knows more about hoarding than I do, experience-wise.
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And I've never met a hoarder that was dumber than me.
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I mean, and I don't mean just by like attitude.
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I mean, they are smarter than you.
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And so it's very hard to argue with a hoarder because you will lose.
00:14:04.639 --> 00:14:07.120
They have absolutely suffered more than you could ever suffer.
00:14:07.279 --> 00:14:08.159
I don't care who you are.
00:14:08.320 --> 00:14:17.919
I don't care if you're a code enforcement, I don't care if you're, you know, uh, we a lot of you guys used to be uh firemen or policemen or firemen, or a lot of them used to be 9-1-1 operators.
00:14:18.080 --> 00:14:20.080
Like, I don't care what trauma you've been through.
00:14:20.159 --> 00:14:24.159
My point is none of us get into hoarding clean out um because life was easy, right?
00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:27.600
So all of us have it have experienced secondhand experience with trauma as well.
00:14:27.759 --> 00:14:34.080
But I'm telling you, the hoarder can out hustle you, they can out, they can outwork you, they know more about trauma and suffering.
00:14:34.159 --> 00:14:36.159
So there's nothing you can do to beat a hoarder.
00:14:36.240 --> 00:14:41.279
Like you cannot beat a hoarder in mentality or or positioning or struggle.
00:14:41.440 --> 00:14:43.200
Like, you've been on the worst side of this.
00:14:43.279 --> 00:14:45.679
Take them to court, take them, take their house from them.
00:14:45.840 --> 00:14:46.080
Okay.
00:14:46.159 --> 00:14:47.200
I mean, I had a hoarder.
00:14:47.279 --> 00:14:53.519
We actually literally had a hoarder on hoarders that she got kicked out of her mansion and then she just squatted on the back porch and Sandra.
00:14:54.320 --> 00:14:54.960
So, yeah, Sandra.
00:14:55.039 --> 00:14:55.519
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:14:55.600 --> 00:15:04.639
I was gonna I had a whole, I gotta tell you, we don't do scripts really in our podcast, but I made a note to talk to you about Sandra because you were obally exasperated, it seemed like with her.
00:15:04.960 --> 00:15:06.000
Smartest woman ever met.
00:15:06.159 --> 00:15:06.639
She broke me.
00:15:06.720 --> 00:15:07.679
All right, so let's talk about Sandra.
00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:08.480
She broke me.
00:15:08.559 --> 00:15:10.320
Okay, she broke the psychologist too.
00:15:10.559 --> 00:15:10.960
You did.
00:15:11.120 --> 00:15:11.440
She did.
00:15:11.519 --> 00:15:12.159
She was so smart.
00:15:12.240 --> 00:15:13.279
So Sandra's brilliant.
00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:18.320
She had actually, for those who don't know, she had uh she lived in the 17 house mansion.
00:15:18.399 --> 00:15:21.519
It was uh it was like a it was like 20,000 square foot mansion.
00:15:21.679 --> 00:15:25.679
Um, we took 98 30-yard dumpsters out of that house.
00:15:26.080 --> 00:15:28.799
98 30 yard dumpsters in four days.
00:15:29.200 --> 00:15:31.919
So I was, I mean, I had 50 guys working, we were cranking.
00:15:32.159 --> 00:15:36.799
And but she literally was evicted out of the house.
00:15:37.120 --> 00:15:39.840
And then she, I mean, she and she beat the system.
00:15:39.919 --> 00:15:42.399
Like she, it took them, I think, probably five, 10 years.
00:15:42.639 --> 00:15:48.720
The guys, the guys unknowingly, knowing she would say they didn't know she was there, they bought the house at a at a tax auction.
00:15:48.799 --> 00:15:54.480
And they buy the house, they go by to see this mansion they just bought, they're gonna restore it, and they find out, oh my god, there's a hoarder living on the back porch.
00:15:54.639 --> 00:15:58.960
She was squat, she'd been squatting on the back porch for years and of her own home.
00:15:59.120 --> 00:16:03.120
And Bank of America knew it, and they just like sold the house to want to touch it.
00:16:03.440 --> 00:16:06.080
No, so these guys bought a house with a hoarder living on the porch.
00:16:06.399 --> 00:16:10.799
Sandra was so smart, and I'm Sandra and I are friends now, so I can say this.
00:16:10.960 --> 00:16:12.799
I mean, she beat me down.
00:16:12.879 --> 00:16:17.919
And this was so like she had researched me, she knew what I was doing, she knew who I was.
00:16:18.159 --> 00:16:18.639
Oh boy.
00:16:18.879 --> 00:16:24.480
She immediately knew she knew that I had I was going through a divorce, and I'm saying this to make a point here, not to put her down.
00:16:24.720 --> 00:16:25.919
She knew I was going through a divorce.
00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:32.559
So when I get to the house, she's like, You she starts talking to me, and I'm doing my thing, trying to talk to her, get her to like me so I can get in there and help her.
00:16:32.639 --> 00:16:34.320
And she goes, You must travel a lot.
00:16:34.399 --> 00:16:35.039
And I said, Sure.
00:16:35.200 --> 00:16:36.960
He goes, I guess that's why your wife left you.
00:16:37.039 --> 00:16:39.360
And your kids, your kids probably don't know you very well.
00:16:39.519 --> 00:16:39.759
Jeez.
00:16:40.559 --> 00:16:43.519
And I said, Oh, oh, we're gonna go here.
00:16:43.600 --> 00:16:43.759
Okay.
00:16:43.919 --> 00:16:44.399
Oh man.
00:16:44.559 --> 00:16:46.799
And she kept pushing, she's like, You look a lot bigger now.
00:16:46.879 --> 00:16:49.279
She's like, You looked a lot skinnier in the earlier seasons.
00:16:49.440 --> 00:16:53.519
And she's pushed, I mean, she's just poking my buttons, and she kept doing it and kept doing it.
00:16:53.600 --> 00:16:56.000
And finally, I mean, if you've watched the episode, I mean I lost it.
00:16:56.080 --> 00:16:57.600
And I told her to F off and I lost my cool.
00:16:57.759 --> 00:16:59.200
So you were done with her professionally.
00:16:59.279 --> 00:17:01.519
I lost my cool, told her to F off.
00:17:01.919 --> 00:17:04.000
And I was like, I'm out, I'm quitting, guys.
00:17:04.079 --> 00:17:05.759
It's just it's a job, it's not enough money here.
00:17:05.839 --> 00:17:07.200
Screw this lady, I'm not gonna do it.
00:17:07.359 --> 00:17:10.720
I mean, my guys were still unpacking the supplies to clean.
00:17:10.799 --> 00:17:11.759
And I'm like, I'm out.
00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:14.000
So I get to say, I was like, pack it up, guys, screw this lady.
00:17:14.079 --> 00:17:14.640
We're not doing this.
00:17:14.880 --> 00:17:16.160
Well, what was her goal there, Matt?
00:17:16.240 --> 00:17:18.000
Why why do you think she was doing that to you?
00:17:18.240 --> 00:17:19.599
This is what's so brilliant about it.
00:17:19.680 --> 00:17:21.039
Because I commit because I quit.
00:17:21.119 --> 00:17:22.720
And she knew she could break me down.
00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:25.759
If I quit, code enforcement's gone, police are gone.
00:17:25.839 --> 00:17:28.720
She got another year or two in legal process to do this.
00:17:29.039 --> 00:17:32.880
I did exactly what she wanted me to do, and that's why I'm telling the story elongated like this.
00:17:33.039 --> 00:17:38.960
I mean, I got to the car and the guys are like, dude, she literally, like, you literally wrote the book on hoarding, and this is in the book.
00:17:39.119 --> 00:17:41.359
Like she's doing what you said she's gonna do, and you fell for it.
00:17:41.519 --> 00:17:44.720
And I came back and I said, Sandra, I said, congratulations.
00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:47.359
I said, first of all, I need to apologize for the words I used.
00:17:47.599 --> 00:17:50.480
I said, but congratulations, you are the best hoarder I've ever met.
00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:51.599
She goes, What do you mean?
00:17:51.759 --> 00:17:53.599
I go, nobody's ever made me quit that fast.
00:17:53.759 --> 00:17:54.960
In fact, nobody's ever made me quit.
00:17:55.039 --> 00:17:57.519
I go, not only did you make me quit, I gave me to do it in under an hour.
00:17:57.839 --> 00:17:58.000
Right.
00:17:58.160 --> 00:18:00.480
I go, congratulations, you are the best.
00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:02.000
And she laughed.
00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:05.359
She goes, nobody's ever, nobody's ever uh come back, man.
00:18:05.839 --> 00:18:11.119
And so she had a defense mechanism to be mean, to be a rattlesnake, and make people leave.
00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:12.160
And it always worked.
00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:12.480
Yeah.
00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:13.920
And we were the first ones to stay.
00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:15.839
And she and I ended up, we ended up getting along.
00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:18.480
And ironically, she works for those guys that bought that house now.
00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:18.880
Really?
00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:19.599
She's gotten her life.
00:18:19.759 --> 00:18:22.480
Yeah, she she is uh uh she's basically an administrator for them.
00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:25.359
And I probably clean a house for them once every five years.
00:18:25.440 --> 00:18:26.640
And I had to talk to her the other day.
00:18:26.720 --> 00:18:28.640
I'm like, Sandra, it's your best buddy, Matt.
00:18:28.720 --> 00:18:30.319
And she's like, I wouldn't say we're best buddies.
00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:42.079
She's like, but I mean like you have to get back to even professionally, if you're code enforcement, if you're legal, specifically uh policeman environment, you have to like respect how smart these people are.
00:18:42.319 --> 00:18:50.000
And and when I finally stopped fighting her and just started working with her, like we got and honestly, we had pretty much a pretty humorous you know relationship, but she straight up broke me, man.
00:18:50.160 --> 00:18:51.839
Like, straight up broke me.
00:18:52.079 --> 00:19:01.039
That episode caught me in that regard because there was a psychologist there too, and she seemed like she was kind of helpless, which is unique for that scenario.
00:19:01.119 --> 00:19:02.400
And you guys had clearly worked.
00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:11.279
I gotta tell you, Matt, for full disclosure, I have never watched a show until I started preparing to meet with you.
00:19:11.519 --> 00:19:13.359
Uh, because it's just too close to home.
00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:17.200
It's like I don't want, I don't want to watch Law and Order, I don't want to watch hoarders.
00:19:17.279 --> 00:19:23.279
It's like I'm like as my free time, I just want to, you know, knock out with like some Rick Steves travel show or something like that.
00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:26.559
But I started watching it, I mean, it gets you hooked.
00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:31.279
And I came across your Sandra episode down there at the Julian Price house was the name of the house.
00:19:31.359 --> 00:19:32.799
And look it up now, by the way.
00:19:32.960 --> 00:19:33.599
Look it up now.
00:19:33.680 --> 00:19:34.720
The guys did an amazing job.
00:19:34.880 --> 00:19:35.200
I did.
00:19:35.279 --> 00:19:37.599
It's a this guy who bought it, God bless them.
00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:38.960
They were so patient with her.
00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:39.839
They were so good.
00:19:39.920 --> 00:19:40.559
It looks amazing.
00:19:40.640 --> 00:19:44.240
Although, ironically, I saw their little fight over zoning with their uh cities.
00:19:44.319 --> 00:19:46.559
So back to code enforcement it comes.
00:19:46.880 --> 00:19:53.680
But the struggle you had, and then she eventually was moving stuff into the right-of-way on the street with some people who volunteered to help her.
00:19:53.839 --> 00:19:55.119
They got frustrated.
00:19:55.279 --> 00:20:01.200
I it are there are there have there ever been any where you just have not been able to get them cleaned up?
00:20:01.440 --> 00:20:03.599
No, I mean that's look, that was the Super Bowl.
00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:05.279
Like you picked the right one to watch.
00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:08.000
I mean, that was my that was my Super Bowl.
00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:11.440
I um I mean, we did get it cleaned out.
00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:14.160
She uh she pushed us hard.
00:20:14.240 --> 00:20:23.920
So I'm I put myself in a corner professionally where I can't say no ever again because a lot of people will watch me on TV and they say, oh, well, if Matt says no, then no one's gonna help me.
00:20:24.160 --> 00:20:25.119
So I have a rule now.
00:20:25.200 --> 00:20:25.920
I don't say no.
00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:29.519
It's not it doesn't mean I can't help them, but there are gonna be a lot of things they have to do.
00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:33.200
So like for me, my boundary, you know, my boundaries now are they have to be in therapy.
00:20:33.440 --> 00:20:34.799
There has to be a finish line.
00:20:34.880 --> 00:20:42.640
I have to be clearly understand what the finish line is, and the family all has to be, whoever, whatever parties are involved, friends, family, whatever it is, they all have to be involved.
00:20:42.799 --> 00:20:44.079
And they all have to agree to that.
00:20:44.160 --> 00:20:47.440
And so we when we come back to the finish, we call it the finish line.
00:20:47.759 --> 00:20:50.079
And I literally print it out and I put it on every wall.
00:20:50.160 --> 00:20:51.279
So every room we're in.
00:20:51.440 --> 00:20:53.839
I said, Oh, wait a minute, finish line, we agreed.
00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:55.039
Finish line was this.
00:20:55.200 --> 00:21:02.000
You mean you met you said that goal was this, and so it it goes you you man, my strategy has changed over the years.
00:21:02.640 --> 00:21:05.039
It used to be I'm the boss and you're gonna do what I say.
00:21:05.119 --> 00:21:11.839
Now it's uh we come in together, the hoarder is involved in the planing, we make the decision with them, but we do hold them responsible.
00:21:12.400 --> 00:21:16.000
And we say, hey, timeout, uh yeah, you got a hoarding disorder.
00:21:16.079 --> 00:21:19.680
And yes, it's a protected disorder, but it it doesn't mean you're not a human.
00:21:20.000 --> 00:21:21.200
We're here to help you.
00:21:21.359 --> 00:21:22.799
And we also charge money.
00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:25.599
I mean, I don't I don't do free cleanouts anymore.
00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:31.839
I don't let this I mean, when I first started, a lot of a lot of jurisdictions would pay for the clean out, and we actually disagree with that now.
00:21:31.920 --> 00:21:34.160
The the hoarder has to have some skin in the game.
00:21:34.319 --> 00:21:37.359
If they can only afford a hundred bucks, I'll take their hundred bucks.
00:21:37.519 --> 00:21:40.079
If they can afford the whole clean out, I'll take the whole now.
00:21:40.400 --> 00:21:41.839
But I work with the family.
00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:45.359
Um, the hoarder has to have some skin in the game.
00:21:45.519 --> 00:21:48.799
If it's all free, they're not gonna take because they don't give a shit.
00:21:49.039 --> 00:21:50.960
Yeah, why do they have to have skin in the game, Matt?
00:21:51.039 --> 00:21:53.359
Just so they will seek a better solution at the end?
00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:53.759
Totally.
00:21:54.079 --> 00:21:55.680
Well, they it's costing them something.
00:21:55.759 --> 00:21:56.400
It's not all free.
00:21:56.480 --> 00:21:58.000
It costs them something, it's real to them.
00:21:58.079 --> 00:21:59.759
And then the one thing we've changed is we sell a lot.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:00.880
Of the stuff now.
00:22:01.039 --> 00:22:05.039
Back in the day, we would just toss it and now we'll we'll sell a lot of stuff.
00:22:05.119 --> 00:22:10.480
And so, like it or not, I mean, when I used to do it, it'd be like, sorry, I'm throwing away your whole house, but you get your house back.
00:22:10.559 --> 00:22:14.079
And then, you know, the only thing worse than a hoarded house is an empty hoarded house.
00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:15.440
You see how destroyed it is.
00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:15.839
Right.
00:22:16.000 --> 00:22:18.319
And now it's like, hey guys, yeah, we cleaned your house out.
00:22:18.480 --> 00:22:21.920
We've gotten, you know, we've gotten the code enforcement issues gone.
00:22:22.079 --> 00:22:24.400
But oh yeah, by the way, we made you 12 grand.
00:22:24.640 --> 00:22:25.920
Here's 12 grand cash, right?
00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:27.359
Or here's 15 grand cash.
00:22:27.519 --> 00:22:30.640
And that absolutely changes the tone of the cleanup.
00:22:30.799 --> 00:22:33.279
Um, but the biggest thing is we make them be a part of it.
00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:44.960
It's not instead of it's us saying, here's the solution, and me and the city, and so many times code enforcement myself, APS, you know, CPS, animal control, we're all involved, but we never included a hoarder.
00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:47.839
And now we just said, man, they they need to have an equal seat at the table.
00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:50.079
And it is more efficient.
00:22:50.240 --> 00:22:53.839
The cleanup is more successful if they go to therapy and they're and they show up.
00:22:54.079 --> 00:22:55.200
And therapy is different.
00:22:55.359 --> 00:23:01.440
Therapy's not what it, you know, it's not always sit on a couch, um, cognitive, you know, CBD, cognitive behavioral therapy.
00:23:01.920 --> 00:23:03.920
Uh a lot of times they just need to volunteer.
00:23:04.480 --> 00:23:05.839
Volunteering is the most by far.
00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:07.279
House No kidding.
00:23:07.519 --> 00:23:12.640
Yeah, most hoarders, uh, they're so this will blow your mind, especially professionals listening.
00:23:12.960 --> 00:23:20.240
For the women, the top three careers for a hoarder are teachers, nurses, and social workers.
00:23:20.480 --> 00:23:21.039
Caregivers.
00:23:21.440 --> 00:23:22.480
Caregivers, exactly.
00:23:22.559 --> 00:23:23.279
They're all caregivers.
00:23:23.599 --> 00:23:27.759
And so you'll find out that most of the women that are hoarding are not hoarding for themselves.
00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:29.519
They're actually hoarding the items for someone else.
00:23:29.599 --> 00:23:31.119
They want to give it to someone else.
00:23:31.359 --> 00:23:37.839
And so uh someone listening just now just realized, holy shit, my mom is a my mom was a teacher and a social worker.
00:23:38.079 --> 00:23:38.400
Oh boy.
00:23:38.559 --> 00:23:38.640
Right?
00:23:38.720 --> 00:23:40.000
A lot of them are all three or two.
00:23:40.160 --> 00:23:46.319
And you start to realize, oh my god, my mom's holding all that stuff to give my mom, you know, give me the kids stuff and give me stuff.
00:23:46.400 --> 00:23:49.839
And a lot of times they just want that love and affection, and that's why they're holding all this stuff.
00:23:50.240 --> 00:23:53.440
They're really just trying to be the one that gives the stuff to be affectionate.
00:23:53.599 --> 00:23:56.160
So believe it or not, that that's when the therapy is really important.
00:23:56.240 --> 00:24:02.799
But the I will tell you, most hoarders are caregivers, and so you have to give them a situation to care.
00:24:02.960 --> 00:24:07.119
And we found that volunteering ends up being the most they it fills their time.
00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:16.720
It gives a lot of times, like I had one lady that hoarded, we were in Richmond, Virginia, we were dealing with a uh, this lady was a yarn hoarder, and she had like 80,000 skeins of yarn.
00:24:16.799 --> 00:24:19.359
Like her house was filled, like it was filled, right?
00:24:19.839 --> 00:24:22.400
And her she had been abused by her husband.
00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:29.119
So we actually finally said, okay, look, this is back when you would call them a um I don't know what they're called now, but they were bad women shelters back then.
00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:30.559
That's an inappropriate term for it now.
00:24:30.640 --> 00:24:32.799
But it was a, you know, it's a recovery center now.
00:24:33.039 --> 00:24:34.240
But back then it wasn't.
00:24:34.400 --> 00:24:39.039
And um she was able, I said, can I just can I give some of this yarn to this group?
00:24:39.119 --> 00:24:40.720
Because there's a there's a knitting group there.
00:24:41.119 --> 00:24:43.039
She's like, I don't know, let me go and look first.
00:24:43.119 --> 00:24:44.640
So she went and taught for a week.
00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:50.000
She first was a volunteer and then she became a teacher, and then she became a house mom, and she actually found a whole life over there again.
00:24:50.319 --> 00:24:53.039
But it still took her a year to be willing to give away all the yarn.
00:24:53.279 --> 00:24:57.440
And uh, but she finally gave the yarn to these group of women and she needed to volunteer.
00:24:57.519 --> 00:25:00.480
So, like, I cannot stress like volunteering is really important.
00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:05.920
Um, I will tell you, uh ERMD is by far the most effective for the extreme.
00:25:07.359 --> 00:25:11.200
I might be getting it wrong, but some professional will tell you it's ERMD or REMD.
00:25:11.279 --> 00:25:12.640
It's a rapid eye movement.
00:25:12.960 --> 00:25:13.279
Right.
00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:14.319
I've heard about that.
00:25:14.480 --> 00:25:14.720
Yeah.
00:25:23.920 --> 00:25:27.440
I can't, I'm really lucky to talk to code enforcement to talk to you know APS.
00:25:27.599 --> 00:25:30.240
Like now there's so many people, there's a lot a younger crew coming in now.
00:25:30.480 --> 00:25:32.160
Code enforcement industry was over 55.
00:25:32.240 --> 00:25:36.960
And so now this next generation that's coming in, they're a little more open to other alternatives.
00:25:37.119 --> 00:25:45.599
And this, I will tell you, like telling, I had a hoarder, an old guy, he had been in, he was a Vietnam guy, and he had, I mean, he was a salty old dude, he was a tough old dude.
00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:49.920
And I remember his court-ordered therapy was like to sit on the couch and talk about his feelings.
00:25:50.079 --> 00:25:51.599
And it was like comical.
00:25:51.839 --> 00:25:54.319
It was like, this dude is not gonna quit smoking.
00:25:54.400 --> 00:25:58.880
He's been smoking since he was like 12, and you're gonna, and you're telling him that you know, smoking's gonna kill him.
00:25:59.039 --> 00:26:01.279
This guy survived like three tours in NAM.
00:26:01.599 --> 00:26:03.759
Like, you're not gonna tell this guy what to do.
00:26:03.839 --> 00:26:06.799
So stop thinking that they but he what he wanted to do was volunteer.
00:26:06.960 --> 00:26:09.839
He actually found a place where he could go and he loved it.
00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:11.359
And uh this guy was a gun hoarder.
00:26:11.519 --> 00:26:12.400
I mean, it was all ammunition.
00:26:12.480 --> 00:26:14.799
Like it was a it was a actually a pretty dangerous house.
00:26:14.880 --> 00:26:17.839
I mean, it was thousands of guns, they were all loaded.
00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:23.599
You know, it was a real challenge for us, and there was cat urine everywhere on top of ammunition, live ammunition, live rounds.
00:26:23.680 --> 00:26:25.519
Oh, and so I never thought about that combo.
00:26:25.759 --> 00:26:30.000
That sounds like a pretend with the I don't know, with the ammonia and getting it.
00:26:30.240 --> 00:26:33.359
Ammonia is insane, and you get one bad spark in there.
00:26:33.440 --> 00:26:33.839
That house is.
00:26:35.119 --> 00:26:35.759
That's a bomb, I guess.
00:26:36.079 --> 00:26:37.519
Oh, it's a absolutely it's a bomb.
00:26:37.599 --> 00:26:38.720
It's absolutely a bomb.
00:26:38.960 --> 00:26:40.480
And he smoked, he smoked incessantly.
00:26:40.720 --> 00:26:43.599
Like he was smoking uh marble reds.
00:26:44.000 --> 00:26:51.359
I mean, just no filters, just the guy sounds like a kind of guy you could have a great beard, a great conversation with, but scary as hell to live next to.
00:26:51.680 --> 00:26:52.960
He was fascinating, dude.
00:26:53.119 --> 00:26:57.680
Yeah, his neighbors, his poor neighbors, his poor neighbors were were, I mean, so that yeah, let's take that side of it.
00:26:57.759 --> 00:26:59.920
The neighbors have all the right to complain about rats and everything.
00:27:00.079 --> 00:27:00.960
I mean, it was awful.
00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:11.039
And um, but like I look, I've dedicated my life to helping help, to helping the hoarders, and so I the neighbors may not like me, and that's okay, because I'm there to help the person.
00:27:11.200 --> 00:27:16.880
I don't I get a lot of cr uh grief from animal rights activists because they're like, Well, why didn't you save those cats?
00:27:16.960 --> 00:27:20.240
I'm like, I don't care about the cats, I care about humans over cats every day.
00:27:20.400 --> 00:27:21.200
I'm sorry.
00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:22.480
Um I have a way to do that.
00:27:22.640 --> 00:27:24.160
But you are solving those problems, Matt.
00:27:24.240 --> 00:27:25.759
I mean, I think so eventually.
00:27:25.839 --> 00:27:28.240
Yeah, we know the pain, we know the pain of it's being misunderstood.
00:27:28.400 --> 00:27:31.279
The code of forcing all over the country is completely misunderstood.
00:27:31.359 --> 00:27:39.359
And either we're not moving quick enough to get it done, and neighbor's complaining, or moving too quick, and we're wiping out someone's constitutional rights and all these things.
00:27:39.519 --> 00:27:41.920
We get it, but you're going in giving everybody happy.
00:27:42.160 --> 00:27:46.480
You got a harder, harder job than me, man, because I don't have to abide by all the laws you guys do.
00:27:46.720 --> 00:27:54.480
Yeah, and the government part and all the you know feelings about the government at the federal and state level and all this stuff, uh, had definitely been interesting.
00:27:54.640 --> 00:27:56.400
We're stuck in the middle of that's that crap.
00:27:56.480 --> 00:27:58.240
But at the end of the day, you're cleaning it out.
00:27:58.400 --> 00:27:58.640
Yeah.
00:27:58.720 --> 00:27:59.759
So let me tell the family.
00:27:59.920 --> 00:28:01.359
I'm like, you want this gone, neighbors?
00:28:01.440 --> 00:28:01.839
Let me do it.
00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:02.240
Right.
00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:06.640
Uh a lot of the hoarders will, you know, they think that code enforcement wants their house.
00:28:06.799 --> 00:28:09.839
Let me say this very clear to every hoarder listening.
00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:13.039
Your house is the last house on the block that anybody wants.
00:28:13.279 --> 00:28:14.640
Let me say that twice.
00:28:14.880 --> 00:28:18.240
Your house is the last house on the block that anybody wants.
00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:20.160
They're here, they're here to help you.
00:28:20.319 --> 00:28:28.960
Um, what I tell every professional, APS, CPS, animal control, anything, the hoarder is a master manipulator, and I mean that in a positive way.
00:28:29.119 --> 00:28:30.559
They're doing it to survive.
00:28:31.200 --> 00:28:41.599
And I can't tell you how many professionals, government professionals, including police, don't document a visit because they the hoarder has convinced them to let it slide.
00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:46.319
Document, document, document, document, and document more.
00:28:46.480 --> 00:28:50.960
If you want to truly help a hoarder, you need to document every single interaction you have with them.
00:28:51.200 --> 00:28:53.599
Specifically apartment managers.
00:28:53.920 --> 00:29:04.799
Apartment managers, you're letting it slide and you're it's on your watch, and it's going to, if you want to help them, they need to have everything documented because in some jurisdictions they can help the hoarder if it's documented.
00:29:04.880 --> 00:29:07.119
And there's time restrictions on all that documentation.
00:29:07.200 --> 00:29:10.960
And if you if you push it, you've just pushed this whole clean out another six months.
00:29:11.119 --> 00:29:16.960
If you actually want to help them, document every interaction, and that's going to get them into a system that'll help them even more.
00:29:17.200 --> 00:29:18.400
They may not appreciate it.
00:29:18.559 --> 00:29:20.160
They're, they think you're going to steal everything.
00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:22.400
Why are they holding on to crap in their house?
00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:25.839
When you when like you'll you'll get in the house and you're like, well, why are they holding on to this?
00:29:25.920 --> 00:29:26.559
This is all trash.
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:27.440
We should throw it away.
00:29:27.599 --> 00:29:30.000
Well, it might be the best thing they have going right now.
00:29:30.160 --> 00:29:31.680
You know, I had a hoarder.
00:29:31.839 --> 00:29:34.319
This is a horrible story, but she was a uh a young hoarder.
00:29:34.480 --> 00:29:36.240
Used to be, you used to think it was all old people.
00:29:36.400 --> 00:29:37.920
And yeah, I was gonna ask you that.
00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:39.680
Yeah, they're the young folks who hoard.
00:29:39.920 --> 00:29:42.160
Oh, yeah, it's all it's a trauma happens at every age now.
00:29:42.640 --> 00:29:54.880
It's getting younger and the hoards are getting worse because the houses, the houses I cleaned out 20 years, 25 years ago were built in the 60s and 70s, and you could you could drop a bomb on those houses and they're not gonna implode.
00:29:55.039 --> 00:30:02.559
But these houses that were built in the 80s and 90s are now getting filled up with books, and they can't actually handle the the weight of the books or the records.
00:30:02.640 --> 00:30:06.559
You get a lot of vinyl records now, and they'll just literally impl the house will implode in itself.
00:30:06.720 --> 00:30:11.359
You know, and so we see a lot of that now where structurally we we used to be able to clean more.
00:30:11.519 --> 00:30:14.160
Now it's just it's it's just not safe structurally.
00:30:14.240 --> 00:30:23.440
I can't go into the house because it's you know, you're seeing the house shift at a much stringer rate, or you're having so many books, or so many I mean, books and vinyl records can literally tear a house down.
00:30:23.599 --> 00:30:24.640
Yeah, the vertical load.
00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:26.640
Yeah, yeah, especially if it's upstairs.
00:30:26.799 --> 00:30:30.160
You know, newspapers aren't as bad as they used to be, so that weight is gone.
00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:34.079
But books and ref vinyl records absolutely do.
00:30:34.559 --> 00:30:38.640
Um, I mean, water damage can, as we all know, can destroy anything.
00:30:39.599 --> 00:30:43.119
We see, I mean, we gosh, I look at these photos every day, just like you do.
00:30:43.279 --> 00:30:46.160
And on the legal side, and by the way, thanks for the note on documenting.
00:30:46.480 --> 00:30:49.839
I always preach it's document it because I may have to take the torch.
00:30:50.079 --> 00:30:52.880
It's like a relay race, and I'm the last leg of that relay race.
00:30:52.960 --> 00:30:54.400
If I don't get the torch, I can't run.
00:30:54.640 --> 00:31:00.079
If you truly want to help a hoarder, if you actually have, and no one stays in this job if you don't have some compassion.
00:31:00.319 --> 00:31:01.039
So you're here.
00:31:01.119 --> 00:31:03.440
If you're listening to this podcast, you actually care.
00:31:03.680 --> 00:31:08.319
So what I'm telling you is if you actually care, then document it because that's going to give them the help they need.
00:31:08.480 --> 00:31:12.880
And if you don't document it, they're just delaying it and you're you're just making it worse on everybody.
00:31:13.119 --> 00:31:15.039
A judge has got to see what you tried to do.
00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:20.960
And on your point about the kick in the can down the road, which I can completely sympathize with for hoarders.
00:31:21.200 --> 00:31:25.359
I mean, I had a case, uh, of course, older lady living in a house, family left.
00:31:25.839 --> 00:31:27.440
So the trauma's in there somewhere.
00:31:27.599 --> 00:31:30.400
And uh, she says, City says we want to inspect.
00:31:30.480 --> 00:31:31.839
And she goes, Oh, I can't inspect.
00:31:31.920 --> 00:31:33.039
Here's a note from my doctor.
00:31:33.119 --> 00:31:33.920
I'm really sick.
00:31:34.079 --> 00:31:37.839
The note was from three years ago, and the note said she can comply.
00:31:37.920 --> 00:31:41.599
It was the most backwards doctor's note I had ever seen.
00:31:41.839 --> 00:31:42.480
She never read it.
00:31:42.559 --> 00:31:45.680
It was like never read, but yet she is like a hedge fund manager.
00:31:45.920 --> 00:31:47.759
They're brilliant, brilliant.
00:31:48.880 --> 00:31:49.200
Brilliant.
00:31:49.279 --> 00:31:56.319
Now, the letter, the doctor, the worst doctor's note ever, but otherwise, um, the house is imploding, roof coming down.
00:31:56.480 --> 00:31:57.200
It was terrible.
00:31:57.279 --> 00:31:59.440
And oddly enough, Matt, maybe you've seen this before.
00:31:59.599 --> 00:32:06.319
The neighbors were pissed at the city for looking like they were going to enforce or do anything because they were on her side.
00:32:06.400 --> 00:32:09.039
She had kind of gotten them all together for her side story.
00:32:09.359 --> 00:32:10.720
Okay, so let's talk about that.
00:32:10.880 --> 00:32:15.119
So when the hoarder, and I'm I say this with love, the hoarder is a master manipulate.
00:32:15.279 --> 00:32:17.519
They've been through more trauma than you could even imagine.
00:32:17.680 --> 00:32:18.000
Okay.
00:32:18.240 --> 00:32:18.880
They're survivors.
00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:21.759
More, and so they are survivors, man.
00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:23.200
Like survivors.
00:32:23.359 --> 00:32:28.880
They are the cat with three legs and eight scars, like that keeps going, right?
00:32:28.960 --> 00:32:30.720
Like they are survivors.
00:32:30.880 --> 00:32:33.200
You cannot outsmart them, you cannot outbeat them.
00:32:33.279 --> 00:32:36.160
And I say this with full respect, full respect.
00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:40.799
Um, they will convince everyone that will listen that of all the bad things.
00:32:40.880 --> 00:32:43.440
And they're doing it to survive, they're doing it to keep people out.
00:32:43.680 --> 00:32:51.920
And I mean, I had a lady, I'll never forget, oh, this lady, and I I kept getting called, like a local police officer was like, I can't get in the house, man.
00:32:52.079 --> 00:32:54.640
Like, we're trying to not, you know, we're trying not to advance this.
00:32:54.720 --> 00:32:56.480
We're trying not to, can you help us get in?
00:32:56.559 --> 00:32:57.279
And I was like, yeah.
00:32:57.359 --> 00:33:01.200
And she had white, they told me she wiped feces, her own feces all over the door.
00:33:02.000 --> 00:33:06.480
And I got a glue, I got to the door, and I have a very system where I knock on the door and then I back off.
00:33:06.640 --> 00:33:08.640
I actually let the hoarder come out to me and talk.
00:33:08.799 --> 00:33:15.279
I don't, you can't, if you're trying to get in the door, the hoarder's not gonna be able to talk to you because they're still, they still think that the gig's not up.
00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:19.359
They still think it's a secret, even though we all know it has we've we've documented it for years.
00:33:19.599 --> 00:33:21.359
They still think there's a chance to say this.
00:33:21.440 --> 00:33:22.880
And so they're trying to keep you out of the house.
00:33:22.960 --> 00:33:24.079
So they're not gonna be able to communicate.
00:33:24.160 --> 00:33:29.119
So I always learned just pull them out on the porch, talk to them, talk down the driveway, like get them out of the house.
00:33:29.359 --> 00:33:30.960
Because if you're in the house, they can't communicate.
00:33:31.279 --> 00:33:37.279
But she wouldn't leave the doorway, she kept trying to look it up, and I I could tell that the kitchen was clean, but the whole front room was full.
00:33:37.519 --> 00:33:42.559
Kitchen was at least not as elevated, it wasn't like eight to five, but there was her own feces everywhere.
00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:46.160
And she goes, Does the feces not bother you?
00:33:46.559 --> 00:33:49.759
She goes, My sh my shit, and that's well, not the word she used.
00:33:50.079 --> 00:33:51.759
I said, No, it's brilliant.
00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:53.200
She goes, What do you mean?
00:33:53.279 --> 00:33:54.079
I go, brilliant.
00:33:54.160 --> 00:33:56.160
Nobody's gonna stay in here, they're all gonna leave.
00:33:56.400 --> 00:33:59.039
And she goes, she just kind of shook her head and smiled.
00:33:59.279 --> 00:34:00.799
You got to the core of it right there.
00:34:01.039 --> 00:34:01.839
I said, I get it.
00:34:01.920 --> 00:34:02.640
I said, What's the deal?
00:34:02.799 --> 00:34:03.759
I said, What's your trauma?
00:34:03.839 --> 00:34:06.880
And it turned out she had been abused by her her brother Annervob.
00:34:07.039 --> 00:34:10.000
And so she was trying to take not me out, she's trying to keep every man in the world out.
00:34:10.159 --> 00:34:10.320
Yeah.
00:34:10.480 --> 00:34:14.400
And so when we realized what her trauma was, okay, first of all, we're gonna have a female officer from here on out.
00:34:14.480 --> 00:34:15.199
We're gonna have a female.
00:34:15.360 --> 00:34:19.679
So we changed the lead of every every person to a female, and that helped us get in, right?
00:34:19.840 --> 00:34:22.000
Like, but you have to know the whore story.
00:34:22.159 --> 00:34:25.440
Um, they are more smart, they're smarter than you and I can ever respect.
00:34:25.599 --> 00:34:31.199
The tr the trauma story, I'll say this to really explain it is they had a lady in New Orleans, she was young, she was in her 40s.
00:34:31.440 --> 00:34:34.000
Um, and I was trying to understand her trauma.
00:34:34.079 --> 00:34:37.920
And what she finally just said to me one day, I said, She goes, Look, uh, it was all Katrina.
00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:39.920
We've had a lot, you know, Katrina's 20 years ago now.
00:34:40.159 --> 00:34:42.320
And so you get a lot of full whores from Katrina.
00:34:42.400 --> 00:34:44.239
So we get a lot of work down in New Orleans now.
00:34:44.400 --> 00:34:46.559
And it's because of the trauma of the of Katrina.
00:34:46.639 --> 00:34:50.480
And she's like, Look, uh, you know, my husband and my son died that night.
00:34:50.639 --> 00:34:52.880
She goes, we were climbing up into the attic.
00:34:53.199 --> 00:34:55.599
And she goes, we were trying to poke a hole through the roof.
00:34:55.679 --> 00:34:56.480
We were trying to get on the roof.
00:34:56.559 --> 00:34:59.119
And they were trying to knock a hole, they're trying to cut a hole in the roof.
00:34:59.199 --> 00:35:00.320
They thought they could just kick it out.
00:35:00.400 --> 00:35:01.599
And the water's rising.
00:35:01.920 --> 00:35:07.440
Her husband and son are hanging onto the rafters, and the water took them and washed them away.
00:35:07.599 --> 00:35:08.000
Awful.
00:35:08.239 --> 00:35:11.360
And she said, I watched my son and my husband get washed away.
00:35:11.519 --> 00:35:19.519
And she goes, Matt, the real, the really hard part is she goes, I don't know if they died or if they made it and they chose not to contact me.
00:35:19.679 --> 00:35:20.880
No, it's heartbreaking.
00:35:21.119 --> 00:35:26.800
She wakes up every day and doesn't know if her family died or if they made it and they would rather be without her.
00:35:27.039 --> 00:35:28.239
That is trauma.
00:35:28.400 --> 00:35:29.199
That's terrible.
00:35:29.360 --> 00:35:30.159
That is horrible.
00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:33.280
And I hated to even tell you that story, but I want people to understand it.
00:35:33.440 --> 00:35:34.960
Like, that's the trauma they're living with.
00:35:35.039 --> 00:35:40.480
So you saying to me, hey, I'm three more strikes and I'm gonna write you a piece of paper, dude, that doesn't mean crap.
00:35:40.639 --> 00:35:41.599
You got to get to the core.
00:35:41.840 --> 00:35:42.400
It's a great point.
00:35:42.719 --> 00:35:44.800
And I'll tell you, I've had that evolution myself, Matt.
00:35:44.880 --> 00:35:45.920
Like the story I shared.
00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:51.280
I mean, again, first 15 minutes, I was like, this criminal process, this isn't this is a square peg around a hole.
00:35:51.440 --> 00:35:52.719
This isn't gonna work here.
00:35:52.880 --> 00:35:54.880
Uh, what tips do you have?
00:35:55.039 --> 00:35:56.159
Well, let's start with this.
00:35:56.400 --> 00:35:58.400
What tips might you have for a guy like me?
00:35:58.559 --> 00:36:05.679
An attorney helping cities and their code enforcement units, they don't contact me till they feel like they've reached the end of the line.
00:36:05.840 --> 00:36:06.800
What tips do you have?
00:36:07.039 --> 00:36:08.159
Go meet with the lady.
00:36:08.320 --> 00:36:09.679
Don't do it before noon.
00:36:09.920 --> 00:36:12.639
Hoarders don't, um, they don't understand time.
00:36:12.800 --> 00:36:16.800
It's like a hoarder's taking a red eye uh like every night for the last 10 years.
00:36:16.960 --> 00:36:19.199
And if you've ever taken the red eye, like it's the worst, man.
00:36:19.280 --> 00:36:19.679
You're exhausted.
00:36:19.840 --> 00:36:20.320
Yeah, you feel awful.
00:36:20.960 --> 00:36:24.159
Hoarders sleep like an hour or two and they wake up because they gotta take care of the cats.
00:36:24.239 --> 00:36:27.679
They gotta they have so many to-do things they need to do that they don't ever actually go to bed.
00:36:27.760 --> 00:36:29.119
So they haven't been to bed in like 10 years.
00:36:29.199 --> 00:36:30.400
And so that's why they're so exhausted.
00:36:30.480 --> 00:36:31.840
That's why they text you in the middle of the night.
00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:34.320
They don't have the concept of time that you and I have.
00:36:34.559 --> 00:36:37.360
You and I have a nighttime, a daytime, an afternoon.
00:36:37.519 --> 00:36:38.400
They don't have any of that.
00:36:38.559 --> 00:36:43.119
So I would typically don't go before noon because they're not gonna hear you.
00:36:43.360 --> 00:36:47.599
And then just try to get more on their, you know, understand their trauma a little bit, understand where they're at.
00:36:47.840 --> 00:36:54.559
Communicate equally, document, document, document, if that's the only thing you guys learned today, document everything and do it twice.
00:36:54.800 --> 00:36:59.199
Um, because that'll save everybody, but and then just say, hey, we're in this together.
00:36:59.360 --> 00:37:03.199
Like it has to be, it absolutely has to be something that everyone's involved in.
00:37:03.280 --> 00:37:04.880
So APS has to be aligned.
00:37:05.039 --> 00:37:08.639
You know, everyone has to have the same compassion-focused solution.
00:37:08.880 --> 00:37:13.599
If if you guys are coming into a city that's just a we're gonna find the crap out of them.
00:37:13.840 --> 00:37:19.119
I mean, I have seen situations where the city just takes the property and because they're finding them, finding them, finding.
00:37:19.199 --> 00:37:21.679
And you know, if you want that, fine, but it's not that's not.
00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:23.119
I don't think it's the best solution.
00:37:23.360 --> 00:37:24.159
It's not gonna work.
00:37:24.239 --> 00:37:25.760
It we've proven it doesn't work.
00:37:25.920 --> 00:37:27.679
I mean, look, I got seven kids.
00:37:27.920 --> 00:37:30.000
Some of my kids I can yell at, some of them I can't.
00:37:30.159 --> 00:37:31.760
Some I can ground, some I can't.
00:37:31.840 --> 00:37:36.559
I mean, each kid needs a little different punishment to motivate, and it is what it is.
00:37:36.719 --> 00:37:38.159
You know, it's the same thing with the hoarders.
00:37:38.239 --> 00:37:43.039
The hoarders are now, you know, these hoarders went to Woodstock.
00:37:43.280 --> 00:37:46.800
These are not ladies that like were Rosie the Riveter in the war.
00:37:47.039 --> 00:37:49.039
You know, I mean, there's a different world now.
00:37:49.119 --> 00:37:53.119
And so you have to under I mean, now you can get hoarders in their 40s and just they bought everything in Amazon.
00:37:53.360 --> 00:37:55.920
It used to take 10 years to fill out a house, fill up a house.
00:37:56.079 --> 00:37:56.719
You could fill it.
00:37:56.800 --> 00:38:01.599
If you had a good enough credit card balance, you could fill up a house in in probably, you know, six or seven months.
00:38:01.920 --> 00:38:06.079
Well hell, we see the boxes unopened from Amazon on the walkway.
00:38:06.320 --> 00:38:07.360
So let's talk about that.
00:38:07.519 --> 00:38:09.440
They're always sealed, they're never opened.
00:38:09.599 --> 00:38:09.840
Right.
00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:16.960
Because it's not about the stuff, it's about the trauma to over to make you feel better for whatever happened.
00:38:17.039 --> 00:38:23.679
So they're feeling bad, they're upset, they missed their kid, maybe their kid died, or they sometimes, I mean, I had one lady, I just said, What I gotta understand this.
00:38:23.840 --> 00:38:26.320
All the only thing I can understand is that you got divorced.
00:38:26.480 --> 00:38:28.719
And she as and I I shamed her trauma.
00:38:28.880 --> 00:38:29.760
She goes, What do you mean?
00:38:29.840 --> 00:38:32.079
I go, so all of this over just a divorce?
00:38:32.320 --> 00:38:33.440
And I shamed her trauma.
00:38:33.599 --> 00:38:37.280
Now, I will tell you, I had not been through a divorce yet at that point.
00:38:37.599 --> 00:38:40.079
I literally called that woman when I went through my divorce.
00:38:40.159 --> 00:38:41.199
I called her and apologized.
00:38:41.280 --> 00:38:42.960
I said, I said something to you one day.
00:38:43.119 --> 00:38:44.239
And I go, I was wrong.
00:38:44.400 --> 00:38:45.679
I go, I'm really sorry.
00:38:45.840 --> 00:38:47.360
Divorce is enough trauma for somebody.
00:38:47.519 --> 00:38:50.159
What I found for her was she had raised her entire family.
00:38:50.320 --> 00:38:54.639
She had given up her career, she had not finished college to have the kids.
00:38:54.719 --> 00:38:55.679
She gave up her career.
00:38:55.840 --> 00:38:57.679
Her husband left her for the secretary.
00:38:57.920 --> 00:39:00.800
The kids grew up successful, moved on.
00:39:01.119 --> 00:39:03.599
She's 55, she had no purpose.
00:39:03.920 --> 00:39:05.519
For her, that was real, right?
00:39:06.079 --> 00:39:16.320
Um you gotta just be there with them as they go and understand it and talk to them, but keep them, keep everybody involved in the process and and to and let her know what you're doing.
00:39:16.400 --> 00:39:18.000
Oh, this is the whole the why did the boxes open.
00:39:18.159 --> 00:39:18.320
Yeah.
00:39:18.400 --> 00:39:20.000
So the box, all right so that lady, great example.
00:39:20.079 --> 00:39:21.280
She wakes up, she's sad.
00:39:21.519 --> 00:39:23.199
She's okay, so how does she feel better?
00:39:23.280 --> 00:39:26.079
She feels super sad, so she goes online, buys something.
00:39:26.239 --> 00:39:27.119
Think how easy it is.
00:39:27.199 --> 00:39:28.079
You used to have to go to the store.
00:39:28.159 --> 00:39:31.440
Now she just clicks on it, and then it shows up two days later.
00:39:31.599 --> 00:39:33.920
And now she feels bad because it shows up.
00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:39.039
She knew she didn't need it, so she just throws it in the corner, never's opened it, and now she feels bad for buying it.
00:39:39.119 --> 00:39:40.239
And so now she feels bad again.
00:39:40.320 --> 00:39:42.000
So what does she have to do to feel better?
00:39:42.320 --> 00:39:43.599
Buy something, uh, buy more.
00:39:43.840 --> 00:39:46.159
It's a vicious cycle of I'm gonna feel better and better and better.
00:39:46.239 --> 00:39:47.599
So they never open the boxes.
00:39:47.679 --> 00:39:48.800
They never open the boxes.
00:39:48.960 --> 00:39:53.119
Because, like you said, it's not about the stuff, not about the stuff, it's about feeling that loss, feeling that grief.
00:39:53.280 --> 00:39:57.039
And so, where that has changed for us is like we we now can resell all that stuff.
00:39:57.119 --> 00:39:59.199
If it's still in the boxes, I'm good, man.
00:39:59.280 --> 00:40:01.039
Like, I'm like great, 25% value.
00:40:01.119 --> 00:40:03.119
I can sell everything for 25 cents on the dollar.
00:40:03.280 --> 00:40:09.360
And so when I used to just dread going into a house, except for QVC jewelry, I cannot sell QVC jewelry.
00:40:09.440 --> 00:40:12.239
It's not really why it's not, it's worthless.
00:40:12.400 --> 00:40:16.079
It's not gold, it's not real gold, it's not real gems, it just looks like it.
00:40:16.320 --> 00:40:19.360
Well, I'm not shopping for my wife's birthday on there anymore that that goes.
00:40:19.519 --> 00:40:21.679
Yeah, even the Fox News Silver does resell.
00:40:21.760 --> 00:40:22.639
I mean, silver silver.
00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:27.599
Oh, on those ads where they talk about putting your money into silver and the Fox News commercials, got it, yeah.
00:40:27.840 --> 00:40:28.800
Turns out they were right.
00:40:28.960 --> 00:40:30.880
Yeah, silver's up, says Matt Silver.
00:40:31.039 --> 00:40:33.039
Silver's up, but it's up to what they bought it for.
00:40:33.119 --> 00:40:35.360
They they actually it's just up to what they used to sell it for.
00:40:35.519 --> 00:40:41.280
So you look at the receipts and you're like, you paid 120 bucks for one ounce of 40, 40, and now it's finally up to like what you're doing.
00:40:41.440 --> 00:40:42.480
Now you're finally even on that.
00:40:42.719 --> 00:40:43.679
You're even, you're at zero.
00:40:43.760 --> 00:40:44.559
Yes, that's exactly right.
00:40:44.880 --> 00:40:46.079
But zero is good, right?
00:40:46.239 --> 00:40:48.559
And so we we see, I mean, we see it all.
00:40:48.639 --> 00:40:53.599
I'm I'm I'm laughing to make fun with it, but at the end of the day, everything a hoarder does makes sense.
00:40:53.679 --> 00:40:56.000
It makes perfect sense if you understand their trauma.
00:40:56.159 --> 00:40:59.840
There's nothing crazy about them, they're actually brilliant, they're just trying to survive.
00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:04.559
Um, so the best thing you guys can do is to to acknowledge that and say, okay, hey, I I understand it.
00:41:04.719 --> 00:41:05.280
I respect you.
00:41:05.360 --> 00:41:06.719
What was your, you know, what was your career?
00:41:06.800 --> 00:41:07.840
What'd you do before this?
00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:10.719
Like get to know them, spend 10 minutes, get to know them.
00:41:10.880 --> 00:41:13.280
Again, don't go into the house, bring them outside of the house.
00:41:13.360 --> 00:41:14.960
I wait for them to invite me in.
00:41:15.199 --> 00:41:17.280
That is my best advice, I can tell you.
00:41:17.440 --> 00:41:24.320
And may take you a whole visit, but if they wait, if they invite you in, and I always say, I say, hey, I can't go in until we call it the vampire rule.
00:41:24.400 --> 00:41:26.159
I say, I can't go in until you invite me in.
00:41:26.320 --> 00:41:27.119
They're like, what do you mean?
00:41:27.199 --> 00:41:28.559
I go, it's your house, man.
00:41:28.800 --> 00:41:34.559
You know, I mean, I can force my way in, but that that gives them still a self-control and they're in charge.
00:41:34.639 --> 00:41:37.760
And they're there's there's they're in they're they have very little control of their life right now.
00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:44.800
So if you have the kindness to give them that control, it will go much further during the and this is gonna be a two, three, four-year relationship that you're talking about.
00:41:44.880 --> 00:41:46.880
I mean, you're gonna be working with this lady for at least two, three years.
00:41:47.039 --> 00:41:49.679
So, like, go in if you are you're gonna go into a relationship.
00:41:49.840 --> 00:41:55.440
I mean, if you met your partner, would you go in screaming at your partner on the first up?
00:41:55.760 --> 00:41:56.079
Yeah.
00:41:56.320 --> 00:41:58.960
So it's a lot like honestly, it's a lot like dating.
00:41:59.039 --> 00:42:01.440
I mean, go into this, like you're gonna know this person for a couple years.
00:42:01.679 --> 00:42:02.480
Relationship building.
00:42:02.800 --> 00:42:03.760
Get to know them, man.
00:42:03.840 --> 00:42:07.039
Like, they're brilliant, they're fascinating people, and it'll go a longer way.
00:42:07.119 --> 00:42:15.519
And then start to really understand what the family situation looks like and start to understand really where they're who's gonna be helping and understand what that team looks like.
00:42:15.760 --> 00:42:16.880
Well, and you're saving time.
00:42:16.960 --> 00:42:20.880
I mean, for the folks listening here, and they're like thinking, Matt, what are you what are you getting me into here?
00:42:21.039 --> 00:42:22.960
There's I got a hundred cases on my desk.
00:42:23.039 --> 00:42:24.559
Well, I can take a year off of it.
00:42:24.639 --> 00:42:33.199
Yeah, it's taking a year, but if you can get it done quicker, what if that first four-hour visit or two-hour visit or that couple visits saves you months and months and months of time?
00:42:33.280 --> 00:42:35.119
Now, Matt, are there ever It'll save you a year?
00:42:35.360 --> 00:42:36.000
Yeah, usually.
00:42:36.159 --> 00:42:42.480
Are there ever cases where the code enforcement people you're dealing with just have to take over?
00:42:42.719 --> 00:42:43.199
Sure.
00:42:43.360 --> 00:42:44.320
Like where, why?
00:42:44.400 --> 00:42:46.639
Why is it hit a wall where they've got to take over?
00:42:46.880 --> 00:42:51.039
Well, you get a uh you get a hoarder that's so stubborn they're not, they're not giving their share.
00:42:51.199 --> 00:42:59.599
You and so if you're if your tack, if you've been compassionate and you've been honest and you've been up front, and by the way, I show my cards, it's kind of like Penn and Teller.
00:42:59.840 --> 00:43:08.239
If you ever watch Penn and Teller Magicians, I think they're when they show, if you've never watched them, if you're listening, Penn and Teller are magicians in Vegas, they show all the tricks, right?
00:43:08.320 --> 00:43:09.679
And it's still very entertaining.
00:43:09.840 --> 00:43:14.800
Well, we've learned with the hoarder, they're so much smarter than me that the whole time they're trying to figure out what my angle is anyway.
00:43:14.960 --> 00:43:15.920
And so I just tell them.
00:43:16.079 --> 00:43:19.840
I'll be like, hey, I'm sweet talking to you right now because I want you to let me in the house.
00:43:20.079 --> 00:43:21.119
Well, that's authenticity.
00:43:21.280 --> 00:43:21.679
Yeah, yeah.
00:43:21.760 --> 00:43:27.280
And so you just go at it, be like, hey, I'm actually gonna ask you about these books because I want you to think I'm smart because I realize you're so smart.
00:43:27.519 --> 00:43:29.199
Tell them all of your angles.
00:43:29.280 --> 00:43:30.880
That'll get you in the door a lot faster.
00:43:31.039 --> 00:43:32.239
They will trust you faster.
00:43:32.400 --> 00:43:33.920
And they're just they're already smarter than you.
00:43:34.000 --> 00:43:36.320
So don't try to like do not try to beat them.
00:43:36.400 --> 00:43:38.400
I mean, it's just not even possible.
00:43:38.559 --> 00:43:41.119
But there will be times where they're not doing their part.
00:43:41.360 --> 00:43:46.480
And so you can now, if you've done it from the the right thing, you can say, hey, I've been honest with you from the beginning.
00:43:46.559 --> 00:43:50.400
I've documented everything, I've been here to help you, and now you're not doing your fair shake.
00:43:50.559 --> 00:43:52.000
You know, this is your one warning.
00:43:52.159 --> 00:43:54.559
If you don't do your shot, your side of it, I can't help you.
00:43:54.639 --> 00:43:55.599
It's gonna go beyond me.
00:43:55.760 --> 00:43:58.320
Right now, it's between you and me, and I can still help you.
00:43:58.400 --> 00:44:02.000
But as soon as this goes past me, I can't help you anymore.
00:44:02.239 --> 00:44:05.920
So either you're going to do your part now or you're not, and it's up to you.
00:44:06.079 --> 00:44:07.440
And then that's it's their choice.
00:44:07.599 --> 00:44:09.119
I mean, you let them, it's there.
00:44:09.199 --> 00:44:14.880
It's not just code just the foil every time, or are we just the boogeyman kind of under the under the bed?
00:44:15.119 --> 00:44:17.039
Or is there I blame the judge?
00:44:17.199 --> 00:44:17.840
I blame the judge.
00:44:18.000 --> 00:44:21.039
I go, I I need code enforcement on my side, so I blame the judge.
00:44:21.280 --> 00:44:25.679
And I have told I've I have I know a lot of the judges now and they are aware that I do that.
00:44:25.840 --> 00:44:28.880
But I take it beyond, I say they a lot.
00:44:29.119 --> 00:44:30.239
This goes beyond me.
00:44:30.320 --> 00:44:31.280
I can't help you, man.
00:44:31.360 --> 00:44:32.559
They the royal they.
00:44:32.800 --> 00:44:33.360
Yeah, right.
00:44:33.440 --> 00:44:33.760
I get it.
00:44:33.840 --> 00:44:34.079
Yeah.
00:44:34.719 --> 00:44:36.239
Because you want to be on their side.
00:44:36.320 --> 00:44:39.280
And I think people, you know, none of us are in this for them.
00:44:39.360 --> 00:44:40.480
None of us make enough money.
00:44:40.559 --> 00:44:45.599
If you're APS, CPS, Code of Warzone, me, none of us are making enough money to for this to be worth it.
00:44:45.679 --> 00:44:47.360
So we definitely have a calling to help people.
00:44:47.440 --> 00:44:52.000
So just be up front with that and say, look, I can help you and I'm gonna try to help you.
00:44:52.159 --> 00:44:57.599
But if it goes past me, I can't guarantee there's gonna be compassion on the other side of that.
00:44:58.079 --> 00:45:00.159
So I'm here to help you or not.
00:45:00.480 --> 00:45:02.639
And like you've got to do your side of it.
00:45:02.719 --> 00:45:06.480
And I'm very once you've got their trust, maybe first or second visit, then you can say that.
00:45:06.559 --> 00:45:09.119
And I and I make it a I make it a 50-50 deal.
00:45:09.199 --> 00:45:12.559
It's not a that's why, again, I don't do the whole like we're gonna help.
00:45:12.719 --> 00:45:25.599
If you go, I did years of like counties that would pay us to do the work for them, and they had no skin in the game, and the people would just sit there and watch us clean, and they would just like and they I mean there were packages coming in the door while we were cleaning.
00:45:25.760 --> 00:45:28.880
And I I look back on it now, it was the dumbest thing we ever.
00:45:29.119 --> 00:45:31.679
It was a waste of money, it was a waste of time, nobody cared.
00:45:31.760 --> 00:45:33.280
They weren't trying to make a difference.
00:45:33.440 --> 00:45:36.159
So I really am very clear on like what is your finish line?
00:45:36.320 --> 00:45:37.840
What do you want this to be like?
00:45:38.079 --> 00:45:39.360
And how are we gonna get you there?
00:45:39.440 --> 00:45:40.239
And it's a team effort.
00:45:40.320 --> 00:45:41.760
And then I make them sign a contract.
00:45:41.920 --> 00:45:45.360
Oh, nice, even if it's a dollar, I make them sign a moral contact.
00:45:45.440 --> 00:45:49.440
I know that sounds really and no city's gonna allow you to do that, but the cleaning company can.
00:45:49.519 --> 00:45:54.559
So whatever cleaning company you're working with locally, like have them write up a moral and ethical code.
00:45:54.639 --> 00:46:01.039
Hey, we're doing this together and make them sign a contract because and there's no legally binding, obviously, as a lawyer, there's no legally binding thing to that.
00:46:01.119 --> 00:46:04.239
But it's a hey, we've agreed to, I'm gonna do my part, you're gonna do your part.
00:46:04.400 --> 00:46:06.480
It's binding somewhere, maybe not in that spot.
00:46:06.639 --> 00:46:07.679
Yeah, it's morally and ethically.
00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:10.159
Yeah, well, it's the buy-in, it's the skid in the game, you know.
00:46:10.239 --> 00:46:14.639
And I'll note for the other lawyers who are listening out there, you can get a court order and hold on it.
00:46:14.719 --> 00:46:16.800
You don't have to do anything with it within the minute.
00:46:16.880 --> 00:46:21.199
Now you've got your foil, you've got your leverage, maybe to to be like what Matt's saying.
00:46:21.280 --> 00:46:23.360
You know, I don't don't make me have to go there.
00:46:23.440 --> 00:46:24.239
Can we work together?
00:46:24.320 --> 00:46:25.360
How do we work together?
00:46:25.519 --> 00:46:28.000
How do I understand where you're coming from when we get this done?
00:46:28.159 --> 00:46:33.039
But just because you go to court and get court orders, I think lawyers often think we think very linear.
00:46:33.119 --> 00:46:35.360
And so it's like linearly, linearly, they're literally.
00:46:35.519 --> 00:46:37.199
I gotta stop using words I can't pronounce.
00:46:37.360 --> 00:46:39.599
But they go to court, get the order, like, I gotta do it.
00:46:39.679 --> 00:46:40.480
No, hold on it.
00:46:40.880 --> 00:46:45.760
That's not going anywhere, and then work with someone like Matt's team to come out and try to get this thing done without the order.
00:46:45.920 --> 00:46:48.239
Yeah, I mean, we're, you know, look, clutter cleaner, we're really good.
00:46:48.320 --> 00:46:52.400
There's a company called Sterry Clean that has probably 50 locations around the country.
00:46:52.480 --> 00:46:54.800
I had Corey, Corey trained those guys really well.
00:46:55.119 --> 00:46:56.239
Corey was the ugly guy.
00:46:56.320 --> 00:46:58.079
And there's two guys on orders, there's a good-looking one.
00:46:58.159 --> 00:46:58.480
That's me.
00:46:58.639 --> 00:46:59.519
The ugly one is Corey.
00:46:59.599 --> 00:47:00.320
Yep, there you go.
00:47:00.480 --> 00:47:02.320
That's how we that's how we tell each other apart.
00:47:02.480 --> 00:47:06.079
And uh Corey, Corey's company, Sterry Clean is really good.
00:47:06.239 --> 00:47:07.760
Uh, they're trained very, very well.
00:47:07.920 --> 00:47:09.360
My guys are trained very, very well.
00:47:09.599 --> 00:47:10.880
There's also a lot of good independents.
00:47:11.119 --> 00:47:14.400
I mean, there's a lot of good independent companies out there, so don't be afraid.
00:47:14.559 --> 00:47:18.880
But but make sure everyone is equally aligned and we're a team.
00:47:18.960 --> 00:47:24.320
And that's when you when the hoarder sees that it's a team, we're not trying to check, we're not trying to take your house, we're not trying to kick you out tomorrow.
00:47:24.400 --> 00:47:25.599
We're actually trying to keep you here.
00:47:25.760 --> 00:47:28.159
But for that to happen, A, B, and C has to happen.
00:47:28.239 --> 00:47:32.880
And and and it may take two or three times because they're still fighting, they're still trying to, they're fighting the trauma.
00:47:32.960 --> 00:47:35.840
That's why we always mandate some type of therapy.
00:47:36.159 --> 00:47:36.559
Yeah.
00:47:36.719 --> 00:47:37.039
Yeah.
00:47:37.199 --> 00:47:40.800
What when should a city contact you, if ever, Matt?
00:47:40.880 --> 00:47:42.880
I know it's not just a hoarder their family.
00:47:42.960 --> 00:47:44.239
When should a city contact you?
00:47:44.480 --> 00:47:45.039
Early, early.
00:47:45.199 --> 00:47:47.920
When if you're going out, if code enforcement's going out, have us go out.
00:47:48.000 --> 00:47:51.280
It doesn't mean the family's gonna hire us, it doesn't mean anything's gonna happen.
00:47:51.360 --> 00:48:00.079
I mean, I will tell you from an affordability standpoint, I know myself and Corey's company, stairy clean, we both can finance it now against them selling the house.
00:48:00.320 --> 00:48:04.400
And and honestly, there's a lot of groups that like, I'll tell you what it's gonna cost to clean it.
00:48:04.559 --> 00:48:06.400
I got guys that'll just buy the house as is.
00:48:06.559 --> 00:48:06.880
Sure.
00:48:07.119 --> 00:48:08.239
And that's an option too.
00:48:08.400 --> 00:48:14.239
And then the hoarder gets re-gets you know, repositioned and gets a payout and gets some cash.
00:48:14.400 --> 00:48:21.760
Um, I prefer when that happens that they have a um a fiduciary involved so they don't blow the money.
00:48:21.920 --> 00:48:25.039
Uh we're we work with daily money managers in that situation.
00:48:25.199 --> 00:48:26.880
Uh they've been great.
00:48:27.119 --> 00:48:29.280
Um, or they have like uh what's the word?
00:48:29.519 --> 00:48:31.599
Um guardian, a legal guardian.
00:48:31.840 --> 00:48:33.519
Oh, yeah, right, or like a conservator or something.
00:48:33.760 --> 00:48:34.400
Yeah, conservator.
00:48:34.559 --> 00:48:34.639
Yeah.
00:48:34.800 --> 00:48:36.239
It depends what you call it in the state.
00:48:36.320 --> 00:48:39.840
But like there's I this team needs to be bigger than you think it is.
00:48:40.000 --> 00:48:40.880
Call us in early.
00:48:40.960 --> 00:48:42.000
It doesn't mean we're gonna get fired.
00:48:42.079 --> 00:48:44.239
We I mean, I work with so many code enforcements.
00:48:44.480 --> 00:48:53.280
I mean, it was it was to a point where in Richmond, Virginia, I mean, we would have about 20 cases that I was working with different code enforcement officers, and sometimes it'd come up, sometimes they wouldn't.
00:48:53.360 --> 00:48:54.079
And I would give a plan.
00:48:54.159 --> 00:48:56.000
I would I mean, like, I always give the family the plan.
00:48:56.079 --> 00:48:56.960
Like, here you go, guys.
00:48:57.039 --> 00:48:58.239
First, here's the plan.
00:48:58.320 --> 00:49:01.119
This is where you should start, this is where you sell the stuff, this is what you need to do.
00:49:01.199 --> 00:49:05.360
And I would give them the entire plan and say, yes, it's gonna cost 20 grand for me to do it.
00:49:05.440 --> 00:49:07.360
So if you can do it yourself for free, good luck.
00:49:07.599 --> 00:49:08.000
Sure.
00:49:08.159 --> 00:49:08.480
Sure.
00:49:08.800 --> 00:49:10.079
You can hire me for one hour.
00:49:10.239 --> 00:49:12.559
You can hire me for one hour to help you go over everything.
00:49:12.800 --> 00:49:13.519
Happy to do it.
00:49:13.599 --> 00:49:18.079
And that would typically that doesn't work because it would have already if it could.
00:49:18.239 --> 00:49:24.800
But like it's part of that that baby stepping process and letting them try and then letting them fail, and then letting us try and letting us fail.
00:49:24.880 --> 00:49:26.079
And so, okay, this is our last chance.
00:49:26.159 --> 00:49:27.119
You got to do your part.
00:49:27.280 --> 00:49:32.800
And but you have to make it realistic too, because they have to know what they're, you know, what is this, what is the long-term solution.
00:49:32.880 --> 00:49:34.719
Are they really trying to stay at home?
00:49:35.199 --> 00:49:36.559
I mean, what if she's got dementia?
00:49:36.639 --> 00:49:38.880
Like, if she's got dementia, you cannot clean that house.
00:49:39.039 --> 00:49:42.239
If the person has dementia, that is the worst thing you can do is do a clean out.
00:49:42.320 --> 00:49:45.440
And a lot of times dementia is misdiagnosed as hoarding.
00:49:46.079 --> 00:49:52.159
A lot of times, you know, I can tell and I created a thing, I can look at the picture and I tell you that it's that dementia or is it hoarding?
00:49:52.320 --> 00:49:52.800
No kidding.
00:49:52.960 --> 00:49:54.000
Well, hoarder cares about their stuff.
00:49:54.079 --> 00:49:55.360
Yeah, hoarder cares about their stuff.
00:49:55.440 --> 00:49:59.440
This there's going to be structure, there's going to be order, there's going to be organized chaos.
00:49:59.519 --> 00:50:06.559
It maybe it's chaotic, but like this eight feet of papers is structured, and this eight feet of cardboard is not.
00:50:06.719 --> 00:50:08.000
But it's it makes sense.
00:50:08.079 --> 00:50:09.280
It's ordered, it's structured.
00:50:09.360 --> 00:50:11.119
The nicest stuff is on the top.
00:50:11.360 --> 00:50:14.639
A real hoarder, you say, Hey, where's your so-and-so?
00:50:14.960 --> 00:50:16.320
Where's your scissors?
00:50:16.559 --> 00:50:21.039
And they're gonna say, three feet that way, two feet to the left, one foot down, and guess where they are?
00:50:21.280 --> 00:50:22.639
Exactly where the hoarder's sitting.
00:50:22.960 --> 00:50:27.360
If if the hoarder can't tell you that, they're not, it's not hoarding, it's it's dementia.
00:50:27.519 --> 00:50:27.840
All right.
00:50:27.920 --> 00:50:31.519
And if the house is tossed about like it's been broken into, well, it's heartbreaking.
00:50:31.679 --> 00:50:33.840
And I'm saying that in like a pride-ish way about hoarder.
00:50:33.920 --> 00:50:34.880
A hoarder knows their stuff.
00:50:34.960 --> 00:50:35.039
Right.
00:50:35.599 --> 00:50:36.079
It's like an inventory.
00:50:36.159 --> 00:50:36.719
They know they're still in the street.
00:50:36.800 --> 00:50:37.280
It's an inventory.
00:50:37.360 --> 00:50:39.039
Yeah, it is literally a full inventory.
00:50:39.119 --> 00:50:40.400
That's why I use the word Excel.
00:50:40.480 --> 00:50:43.599
Again, you and I, they you and I have an Excel spreadsheet.
00:50:43.679 --> 00:50:45.199
And it's like, do you have a lawnmower?
00:50:45.360 --> 00:50:46.559
Yes, I have a lawnmower.
00:50:46.639 --> 00:50:47.840
That's as far as ours goes.
00:50:47.920 --> 00:50:48.159
Okay.
00:50:48.239 --> 00:50:50.800
But the hoarder, it's yes, I have a lawnmower.
00:50:50.880 --> 00:50:52.079
I bought it at Walgreens.
00:50:52.320 --> 00:50:54.400
I paid this much for it on this date.
00:50:54.480 --> 00:50:55.599
It's over here.
00:50:55.760 --> 00:50:56.719
It needs gas.
00:50:56.880 --> 00:50:58.320
I got gas for it on this day.
00:50:58.400 --> 00:50:59.280
And here's the receipt.
00:50:59.440 --> 00:51:04.239
Like, they have a hundred cells or uh for that one item.
00:51:04.320 --> 00:51:05.679
You and I have one cell.
00:51:05.920 --> 00:51:12.480
So you have to understand that's why their brain is going so they can get rid of it, but they have to go through everything that I just talked about.
00:51:12.559 --> 00:51:14.079
You and I just like, yeah, I got one.
00:51:14.320 --> 00:51:20.639
Yeah, you know, and the legal, though, I I love that point about um there are differences in the kind of hoarders and how you deal with it.
00:51:20.719 --> 00:51:25.760
I have cases where, you know, my goal is never just to get the property cleaned up because, like you said, it's going to come back.
00:51:25.840 --> 00:51:31.519
And so we have cases where we'll seek to have an attorney appointed for them to help get their estate in place.
00:51:31.679 --> 00:51:34.800
We'll have ones where they find family members that we couldn't find.
00:51:34.960 --> 00:51:40.960
They'll have ones where, you know, we get someone to buy it and give them a life estate after so the cleanup costs aren't imposed by them.
00:51:41.039 --> 00:51:44.800
We have ones where, you know, we've helped get a conservator appointed over them.
00:51:44.880 --> 00:51:46.880
And so there's a variety of approaches.
00:51:47.199 --> 00:51:49.440
That is so that's the modern way to deal with this, right?
00:51:49.519 --> 00:51:52.480
Like, I can't tell you how many times tell my kids I'm up to speed on something, Matt.
00:51:52.800 --> 00:51:54.239
Dude, you 100%, dude.
00:51:54.320 --> 00:51:57.440
Like, I can't tell you how many times I'm like, hey, is this going to a medical trust?
00:51:57.519 --> 00:51:58.559
Or like, what do you mean?
00:51:58.719 --> 00:51:59.199
Right, right.
00:51:59.280 --> 00:52:00.239
They had no idea, right?
00:52:00.320 --> 00:52:04.880
Well, let's get someone instead of spending$50,000 as a city cleaning it out yourself.
00:52:05.039 --> 00:52:09.519
Why don't we get the tools in place to help these people kind of with an infrastructure for their lives?
00:52:09.599 --> 00:52:14.639
Sometimes they just need to go to a senior care facility that they can't get into.
00:52:14.800 --> 00:52:16.239
Heck, I've got elderly parents.
00:52:16.320 --> 00:52:16.400
Yeah.
00:52:16.719 --> 00:52:19.440
Adult daycare isn't is I can't tell you how many people.
00:52:19.519 --> 00:52:22.159
We just started sending them to adult daycare from like 9 a.m.
00:52:22.320 --> 00:52:22.960
to 2.
00:52:23.119 --> 00:52:24.880
And it's amazing for a hoarder.
00:52:24.960 --> 00:52:28.800
They get they get food, they get hydration, they get back on their meds.
00:52:28.960 --> 00:52:30.079
They're a different person.
00:52:30.159 --> 00:52:33.599
Like I've had, man, you know, here's a stat, no one knows.
00:52:33.840 --> 00:52:37.920
I got invited to eight different weddings from people that I helped at hoard on hoarders.
00:52:38.079 --> 00:52:38.159
Wow.
00:52:38.239 --> 00:52:38.559
No kidding.
00:52:38.800 --> 00:52:44.159
Eight different women got their life back together, found a boyfriend, and got their life back together.
00:52:44.239 --> 00:52:48.960
And they're happy because they it we took a nice, you know, slower approach.
00:52:49.119 --> 00:52:53.039
I really loved, I mean, conservativeship is extremely important, guardianship's extremely important.
00:52:53.199 --> 00:52:56.000
Do an asset search, do a basic asset search.
00:52:56.079 --> 00:52:58.320
You'd be we do that on every client now at Clutter Cleaning.
00:52:58.400 --> 00:53:00.480
We do an asset search on the Social Security numbers.
00:53:00.639 --> 00:53:07.039
It is a mate, no one has ever called me and said, hey, I got a lot of extra money and all the time in the world.
00:53:07.119 --> 00:53:08.320
Let's tackle this hoarding issue.
00:53:08.480 --> 00:53:08.639
Right.
00:53:08.719 --> 00:53:08.800
Yeah.
00:53:09.039 --> 00:53:10.480
And I've never received that phone call.
00:53:10.639 --> 00:53:14.960
Every phone call I get is, oh my God, I'm getting evicted tomorrow and I have no money.
00:53:15.119 --> 00:53:16.159
You have to help me.
00:53:16.320 --> 00:53:17.920
No, it's that they don't want to spend it.
00:53:18.000 --> 00:53:28.400
I mean, I I cannot tell you through financing or through estate settlement or even I mean, I have found so many deeds to multiple properties they didn't even know they had, and I'm cleaning the house up for free.
00:53:28.639 --> 00:53:31.840
And and I'm like, I just found you a million dollar house.
00:53:32.079 --> 00:53:34.880
Like, I need to renew that contract, right?
00:53:34.960 --> 00:53:35.679
And yeah, right.
00:53:35.760 --> 00:53:37.199
But they're like, man, it's not about the money.
00:53:37.280 --> 00:53:39.360
It's about the I'm trying to heal, I'm trying to mask.
00:53:39.440 --> 00:53:41.519
I might as well be drinking a jug of vodka every day.
00:53:41.599 --> 00:53:43.599
But they've got a million-dollar house sitting out there.
00:53:43.840 --> 00:53:45.920
So, like, get do it the right way, get it.
00:53:46.159 --> 00:53:51.920
Cities, I I would strongly advise the cities focus their cash on services, not clean out.
00:53:52.000 --> 00:53:54.000
And I'm the guy that went to get paid out.
00:53:54.239 --> 00:54:01.599
If you find out the settlement, find out what assets they actually have, we can finance it against the house, quite honestly.
00:54:01.840 --> 00:54:04.239
City does not need to waste their money on the clean out.
00:54:04.400 --> 00:54:10.639
City needs to spend their money on the professional services that exist to make a team that can help this hoarder long term.
00:54:10.880 --> 00:54:16.719
And I'll tell you, all you cities out there who I work with and even who I don't work with, I'll give you a little free legal advice.
00:54:16.880 --> 00:54:19.440
If you get started and you break it, you bought it.
00:54:19.599 --> 00:54:22.639
And so it is much better that you get someone else involved.
00:54:22.719 --> 00:54:25.920
But the cities can be the impetus to get all these different things together.
00:54:26.000 --> 00:54:30.320
Nobody can navigate bureaucracy better than bureaucracy itself, most of the time.
00:54:30.559 --> 00:54:38.239
So it's good, you know, to be able to be leading the charge and working with private folks who can help get in there and speak to them and talk to the hoarders in a way they understand.
00:54:38.480 --> 00:54:39.679
And start a hoarding task force.
00:54:39.760 --> 00:54:41.679
If you don't have a hoarding task force in your town, start one.
00:54:41.920 --> 00:54:42.239
Great point.
00:54:42.960 --> 00:54:45.119
I promise you the cleanup companies will help start it.
00:54:45.199 --> 00:54:52.239
Uh, but you get you get fire involved, you get police involved, you get code enforcement involved, you get APS, CPS, get them all.
00:54:52.480 --> 00:54:58.719
I mean, they you'll be amazed, especially as state lawyers, like they're people that will come in and help.
00:54:58.960 --> 00:55:02.400
And most situations the home is an asset still.
00:55:02.719 --> 00:55:04.480
Yeah, particularly out in California.
00:55:04.559 --> 00:55:07.679
Although a lot of Californians are moving to Georgia, driving up prices out there.
00:55:07.760 --> 00:55:09.679
So it's uh I think it's they're coming back.
00:55:10.320 --> 00:55:10.719
We're coming.
00:55:10.800 --> 00:55:11.679
Are there are they coming back?
00:55:11.840 --> 00:55:12.480
Yeah, they're coming back.
00:55:12.559 --> 00:55:13.679
Everybody's coming back to California.
00:55:13.760 --> 00:55:14.719
Where are you all in LA?
00:55:14.800 --> 00:55:15.199
Where are y'all?
00:55:15.360 --> 00:55:17.360
I we're in Orange County, we're south of LA.
00:55:17.599 --> 00:55:25.199
Yeah, we like to we like to note we're really south of LA, but we're above San Diego, so we're near the coast side there, but we get a fair share of them.
00:55:25.280 --> 00:55:30.239
Um, but I wanted to ask you, I know your time is is precious here, and I want to pre- I want to respect that.
00:55:30.480 --> 00:55:31.280
Legacy list.
00:55:31.760 --> 00:55:39.599
How is a legacy list, how is a legacy to helping people kind of look through their stuff, um, identifying kind of how they're leaving a legacy?
00:55:39.760 --> 00:55:41.280
How is that different than hoarders?
00:55:41.920 --> 00:55:51.360
So Legacy List was a show I I created just because I was I was going on public television, PBS, and I just I love the stories in these houses.
00:55:51.519 --> 00:55:58.320
I had a lady that I was one time found out, she, you know, I said, Well, what's the most important item we're looking for in the house?
00:55:58.480 --> 00:56:00.159
I always ask that, I'm like, what's the one item?
00:56:00.239 --> 00:56:03.440
If I clean this house out and everything else gets trashed, what's the most important item?
00:56:03.599 --> 00:56:05.360
And she goes, Oh, my welding kit.
00:56:05.519 --> 00:56:06.800
And this was like an 80-year-old lady.
00:56:06.880 --> 00:56:07.920
I go, welding kit?
00:56:08.079 --> 00:56:08.480
You weld?
00:56:08.719 --> 00:56:10.559
She's like, that's what I did during the war.
00:56:10.880 --> 00:56:16.400
And she was a welder on these like little biplanes that our grandpa's flew.
00:56:16.559 --> 00:56:18.239
And that was her job, right?
00:56:18.480 --> 00:56:22.159
And that that story, I was just like, okay, I gotta make a show about those stories.
00:56:22.320 --> 00:56:24.800
And so for me, I created the term a legacy list.
00:56:24.880 --> 00:56:28.320
A legacy list is the is the top five items in the house that matter most to you.
00:56:28.480 --> 00:56:31.440
They typically tell your full your family's legacy, not just yours.
00:56:31.599 --> 00:56:37.840
And remember, we already know that hoarders are caregivers and they're sad because someone usually someone's passed away, someone they love.
00:56:38.000 --> 00:56:38.800
They had a big family.
00:56:38.880 --> 00:56:44.559
So legacy list is although it's just a conceptual tool, it's just you writing down five items that matter most.
00:56:44.719 --> 00:56:46.960
The second side of that is you're gonna share the stories.
00:56:47.119 --> 00:56:49.920
So you got your grandfather, you got your little welding clip.
00:56:50.159 --> 00:56:50.480
Great.
00:56:50.559 --> 00:56:51.760
Tell me about your welding kit.
00:56:51.840 --> 00:56:53.039
Tell me about what you did during the war.
00:56:53.119 --> 00:56:56.639
Oh, you're you got your dad's Lawn Rangers uh lunchbox.
00:56:56.719 --> 00:56:58.480
Great, tell me about your dad, right?
00:56:58.639 --> 00:56:59.920
I want those five items.
00:57:00.079 --> 00:57:01.039
I've got my dad's ring.
00:57:01.119 --> 00:57:02.800
My dad gave me this ring the day he died.
00:57:02.960 --> 00:57:03.920
Literally the night he died.
00:57:04.079 --> 00:57:04.880
My dad gave me this ring.
00:57:04.960 --> 00:57:05.760
I love this ring.
00:57:05.840 --> 00:57:07.119
I talk about my dad all the time.
00:57:07.199 --> 00:57:08.639
My dad's been dead 25 years.
00:57:08.800 --> 00:57:11.760
I wouldn't have this career without my dad dying, right?
00:57:12.079 --> 00:57:13.119
But thank God I have it.
00:57:13.280 --> 00:57:14.159
I think of how many families.
00:57:14.320 --> 00:57:15.599
I'm on a quest to help a million families.
00:57:15.679 --> 00:57:16.800
That's like a college.
00:57:17.280 --> 00:57:17.440
Yeah.
00:57:17.599 --> 00:57:18.880
I am I I cannot retire.
00:57:18.960 --> 00:57:22.239
I'm 50 this year, and I will retire when I help a million families.
00:57:22.400 --> 00:57:24.320
Believe it or not, I think I'll be 58.
00:57:24.639 --> 00:57:27.119
It's not actually not that crazy when you do the math on it.
00:57:27.280 --> 00:57:29.440
But like this isn't a legacy list item for me.
00:57:29.519 --> 00:57:31.119
My kids all want this item.
00:57:31.360 --> 00:57:35.119
I want my hoarders to, they're not dumb, they're intelligent.
00:57:35.280 --> 00:57:44.079
This helps you prioritize the things that matter, and it helps you start to chant to grapple with your grief, and it lets you put structure behind this chaos.
00:57:44.239 --> 00:57:55.840
And if you do that legacy, the first five legacy items, I promise you, once you share those stories, you will start because what happens is you're like, okay, I've talked about my dad twice, my grandfather twice, my grandmother once.
00:57:56.079 --> 00:58:02.719
So now when you talk about your grandma's best 10 recipes, do you need every one of grandma's cookbooks?
00:58:02.800 --> 00:58:05.440
No, we've already highlighted the top 10 recipes.
00:58:05.679 --> 00:58:10.559
Do I need to keep my grandfather's National Geographic collection that's entwined in the garage?
00:58:10.800 --> 00:58:11.360
Uh no.
00:58:11.599 --> 00:58:12.880
I've already celebrated my grandmother.
00:58:13.039 --> 00:58:13.920
What about all my grandfather?
00:58:14.079 --> 00:58:14.159
Yeah.
00:58:14.239 --> 00:58:14.400
Yeah.
00:58:14.800 --> 00:58:15.039
Yeah.
00:58:15.119 --> 00:58:16.000
What about my by the way?
00:58:16.079 --> 00:58:17.679
They're not they're not worth anything.
00:58:17.760 --> 00:58:18.800
Neither are BB Babies.
00:58:19.039 --> 00:58:20.079
They're World Life magazine.
00:58:20.559 --> 00:58:21.519
Yeah, so keep one.
00:58:21.679 --> 00:58:22.800
So keep one, right?
00:58:22.960 --> 00:58:24.639
Do you need to keep all 50 or all the people?
00:58:24.880 --> 00:58:25.679
Selling my wife, Matt.
00:58:25.840 --> 00:58:26.639
You're selling my wife.
00:58:26.719 --> 00:58:28.400
She's like, take a picture of pictures.
00:58:28.480 --> 00:58:29.840
Why are you keeping all these pictures?
00:58:29.920 --> 00:58:30.960
Just take a picture of them.
00:58:31.440 --> 00:58:33.119
We have started using technology.
00:58:33.199 --> 00:58:36.320
We use an app called Artifacts, A-R-T-I-F-C-T-S.
00:58:36.480 --> 00:58:38.800
That has helped us a lot with family members.
00:58:38.960 --> 00:58:43.119
Uh let them take a picture of the item, let them take a let them take a video of it.
00:58:43.280 --> 00:58:44.960
It it keeps all the items in one place.
00:58:45.119 --> 00:58:47.440
You can share it with family, you can share the memories.
00:58:47.599 --> 00:58:50.559
Uh obviously, my book's name is keep the memory, lose the stuff.
00:58:50.719 --> 00:58:57.119
Uh at the end of the day, we hold on to stuff because of the people we loved and the memories that were attached to it.
00:58:57.519 --> 00:58:59.760
That's hoarding, that's not hoarding, that's you and me.
00:58:59.920 --> 00:59:01.519
That's regular people like you and me.
00:59:01.679 --> 00:59:02.960
That's our extreme hoarders.
00:59:03.119 --> 00:59:05.199
We hold on to we can all relate to that.
00:59:05.519 --> 00:59:08.400
That is not isolated to any one type of person.
00:59:08.719 --> 00:59:13.039
The only difference between you and me and a hoarder is they're actually smarter than you.
00:59:13.920 --> 00:59:14.719
They're smarter than me.
00:59:14.800 --> 00:59:20.719
And if you respect that and you really truly go into the okay, we're equal, they just have had a harder time.
00:59:20.880 --> 00:59:23.599
You know, we tell my employees this is someone's grandma.
00:59:24.159 --> 00:59:25.519
Treat them like it's your grandma.
00:59:25.599 --> 00:59:29.599
And I know that sounds so silly, but for professionals listening, like, take that, man.
00:59:29.679 --> 00:59:30.800
You obviously you do.
00:59:30.960 --> 00:59:32.320
And then and then work.
00:59:32.400 --> 00:59:37.199
I mean, obviously, you're making a pretty strong, I haven't listened to the podcast, but you're making a really strong argument.
00:59:37.280 --> 00:59:40.639
Like, use in that lawyer, lawyers need to be on the team.
00:59:40.880 --> 00:59:47.440
Because if we have a solutions team, we have a boarding task force, and we're able to now find the actual like legal way to help them.
00:59:47.519 --> 00:59:52.320
And then more importantly, we can work with code enforcement, and then more importantly, we found the assets to actually pay for this.
00:59:52.559 --> 00:59:54.639
It's the last leg of the relay race, Matt.
00:59:54.719 --> 00:59:56.000
We're the last leg of it.
00:59:56.079 --> 01:00:02.079
And you hope maybe somehow to finish the relay race without getting to us, but we can get it to the finish line if we know what we're doing.
01:00:02.159 --> 01:00:06.559
I mean, it was something I found in the code enforcement industry when I fell into it, kind of like you got into yours.
01:00:06.719 --> 01:00:11.679
It's never intentional that you fall into these things, but you do, and it ends up becoming a passion, personal passion.
01:00:11.760 --> 01:00:14.079
And what I found is there was really no end doing this.
01:00:14.239 --> 01:00:17.599
It's certainly not people doing it the way I wanted to do, which was comprehensive.
01:00:18.000 --> 01:00:20.400
My grandma, by the way, was severely mentally ill.
01:00:20.480 --> 01:00:23.840
My dad ultimately found her passed away in her home after a couple weeks.
01:00:24.159 --> 01:00:29.679
And that is a huge reason I do what I do and how I do that kind of thing, you know.
01:00:29.840 --> 01:00:31.280
Um, so I'm with you on it.
01:00:31.440 --> 01:00:36.480
Matt, let me ask you what if you were a hoarder, we actually just asked this question at lunch with our team like an hour ago.
01:00:36.639 --> 01:00:39.840
If you were a hoarder, what would you hoard?
01:00:40.079 --> 01:00:41.119
Well, I got seven kids.
01:00:41.199 --> 01:00:43.840
So the joke is the guy from hoarders hoards kids.
01:00:44.639 --> 01:00:45.039
Right.
01:00:45.199 --> 01:00:46.480
Okay, that's fair.
01:00:46.719 --> 01:00:48.159
I am a hardcore minimalist.
01:00:48.320 --> 01:00:50.880
My I met my wife because she wrote a book about minimalism.
01:00:51.039 --> 01:00:51.840
You're gonna laugh.
01:00:52.000 --> 01:00:55.280
The one thing I collect, I collect uh Air Jordans.
01:00:55.360 --> 01:00:56.159
I have way too much.
01:00:56.239 --> 01:00:56.400
Wow.
01:00:56.880 --> 01:00:57.440
They're back.
01:00:57.920 --> 01:01:00.159
Yeah, well, I'm 50, so it's the Air Jordan ones.
01:01:00.320 --> 01:01:02.639
My kids think they're lame, they're just for old white guys, is what they say.
01:01:03.280 --> 01:01:04.000
I'm 45.
01:01:04.159 --> 01:01:06.400
Everybody wanted uh the Air Jordans.
01:01:06.559 --> 01:01:09.280
You had to have everybody wanted to be like Mike, gotta have that stuff.
01:01:09.519 --> 01:01:12.000
But none of us could afford them, and so we buy them now, right?
01:01:12.079 --> 01:01:13.360
And we were all too poor to bring them.
01:01:13.599 --> 01:01:17.519
I will tell you, I do I spend a lot of time in LA now, and I'm actually in California Latin.
01:01:17.679 --> 01:01:18.159
We have a big office.
01:01:18.320 --> 01:01:19.440
Cletter, we have a huge office.
01:01:19.519 --> 01:01:21.199
Actually, we're opening the office in Laguna next month.
01:01:21.679 --> 01:01:21.920
Really?
01:01:22.079 --> 01:01:24.079
Well, we had now we have three lagunas, Matt.
01:01:24.159 --> 01:01:25.440
Which laguna are you talking about?
01:01:25.679 --> 01:01:29.679
Uh up right up north of, yeah, yeah, right above, right above uh Data Point.
01:01:29.760 --> 01:01:30.719
Yeah, we're we're swamped.
01:01:30.800 --> 01:01:32.159
I mean, we're swamped in California.
01:01:32.239 --> 01:01:34.320
We we cannot clean enough estates in California.
01:01:34.400 --> 01:01:39.599
And so we're San Diego, San Diego, Linguna Beach, LA, San Francisco already.
01:01:39.920 --> 01:01:41.599
And then we're open in Sacramento this year, too.
01:01:41.679 --> 01:01:42.480
We're just swamped.
01:01:42.559 --> 01:01:47.280
But like I I get why people hoard cars in California.
01:01:47.440 --> 01:01:48.159
I get it.
01:01:48.400 --> 01:01:53.440
Um the only thing I actually collect is is actually flat pennies, those old flat pennies, you know, for the flip.
01:01:54.000 --> 01:01:56.239
I think those are really put them through the machine and you roll it.
01:01:56.400 --> 01:01:56.559
Yeah.
01:01:56.880 --> 01:01:58.880
You pay you like a dollar and you get a penny back out.
01:01:58.960 --> 01:01:59.199
Yeah.
01:01:59.440 --> 01:02:00.960
Yeah, it's a total financially success.
01:02:01.519 --> 01:02:02.960
It's like the silver until recently.
01:02:03.119 --> 01:02:03.360
Yeah.
01:02:03.599 --> 01:02:06.719
I honestly, I the older I get, I'm a blended family.
01:02:06.880 --> 01:02:08.719
My wife and I have seven kids together.
01:02:08.960 --> 01:02:12.000
And for me, I think stuff really holds us back from living.
01:02:12.159 --> 01:02:18.159
I'm getting really, really uh zen here, but like I don't want any I want to be able to leave town in ten minutes.
01:02:18.400 --> 01:02:20.079
I I'm an old school gambler.
01:02:20.159 --> 01:02:22.400
I actually got an you know tie my trauma was gambling.
01:02:22.480 --> 01:02:25.519
I lost everything in Lake Tahoe in the 90s, gambling.
01:02:25.760 --> 01:02:32.239
And uh I want to be able to leave town in five minutes, and I love that now I'm old enough that my kids want to go with me.
01:02:32.480 --> 01:02:39.920
And so for me, I don't want anything that holds me back from doing whatever traveling my kids want, or whatever my kids want.
01:02:40.000 --> 01:02:44.000
If it's traveling or business or whatever they want to do, I want to have the money and the freedom to do it with them.
01:02:44.079 --> 01:02:47.280
And so I really believe it or not, I don't want any stuff.
01:02:47.440 --> 01:02:49.599
I don't want anything to hold me back.
01:02:49.920 --> 01:02:54.079
And I literally, I mean, I live out of its suitcase half the year in my life.
01:02:54.559 --> 01:02:55.039
Sounds like it.
01:02:55.119 --> 01:02:55.360
Gosh.
01:02:56.000 --> 01:02:59.360
But yeah, but like we're minimalists, and so that's kind of how we live anyway now.
01:02:59.440 --> 01:03:08.400
And so, like, we love that we could literally, you know, if if if if stuff hit the fan, I I could leave town in 10 minutes as long enough for the kids in the car.
01:03:08.639 --> 01:03:12.639
That's very Danish of you that there are minimalism, a whole country surrounding minimalism.
01:03:12.800 --> 01:03:13.039
Yeah.
01:03:13.360 --> 01:03:13.920
I love it.
01:03:14.079 --> 01:03:16.719
It's changed my life for the happiness of fan a lot better.
01:03:16.800 --> 01:03:22.000
But I want my hoarders to hear, like, I promise you, whatever's holding you back, man, go get that help.
01:03:22.079 --> 01:03:25.039
The help's there, people like this, professionals that really want to help you.
01:03:25.199 --> 01:03:26.400
Nobody wants to take your house.
01:03:26.559 --> 01:03:28.000
We want to help you keep it.
01:03:28.239 --> 01:03:32.400
And I promise you, the the eight people that invited me to the wedding.
01:03:32.639 --> 01:03:35.519
Actually, the coolest wedding I ever been to was a hoarder that hated me, right?
01:03:35.599 --> 01:03:38.320
I took, I got 60 cats taken away from her.
01:03:38.480 --> 01:03:42.639
And she ended up was able to start dating after she didn't have any cats, and she got her life together.
01:03:42.719 --> 01:03:45.199
And she told me, she like it's the best thing ever happened to me.
01:03:45.360 --> 01:03:47.920
She goes, I'd literally dedicated 10 years of my life to these cats.
01:03:48.000 --> 01:03:50.000
And she's like, now she has a boyfriend and she got married.
01:03:50.079 --> 01:03:52.960
And and then the question is, what do you give a hoarder for a wedding gift?
01:03:53.199 --> 01:03:54.079
That's a great question.
01:03:54.239 --> 01:03:56.559
What uh a book on an IKEA?
01:03:56.880 --> 01:03:59.840
Gift certificates, give gift certificates for cleaning at caught our quinger.
01:04:00.000 --> 01:04:00.079
Yeah.
01:04:00.320 --> 01:04:01.039
Oh, okay.
01:04:01.199 --> 01:04:01.679
Well, that's it.
01:04:01.840 --> 01:04:05.039
No, we gave we actually gave them uh dinner, restaurants, restaurant experiences.
01:04:05.519 --> 01:04:07.119
Get out of the house, go somewhere.
01:04:07.280 --> 01:04:09.440
Can't bring in home unless it's in a doggy bag.
01:04:09.760 --> 01:04:11.360
They'll bring all the the leftovers.
01:04:11.440 --> 01:04:12.880
But you know, I want them.
01:04:13.039 --> 01:04:15.119
I really believe in experiences over stuff.
01:04:15.199 --> 01:04:18.079
And as cheesy as that is, I know my audience isn't listening to that yet.
01:04:18.159 --> 01:04:19.760
But if you hear it enough times, you'll start to get it.
01:04:20.000 --> 01:04:20.639
It's upcoming.
01:04:20.719 --> 01:04:21.599
That's a that's a big deal.
01:04:21.679 --> 01:04:23.679
I'm always telling my daughters, Mother's Day's coming up.
01:04:23.760 --> 01:04:25.280
She wants your time, not your stuff.
01:04:25.760 --> 01:04:26.159
That's it.
01:04:26.400 --> 01:04:27.360
That's uh that's big.
01:04:27.440 --> 01:04:30.639
And I got one going to college in a couple months, and I'm just thinking to myself, time.
01:04:30.960 --> 01:04:31.760
I wish I had more time.
01:04:32.000 --> 01:04:32.559
Oh, dude.
01:04:32.639 --> 01:04:33.360
That exactly.
01:04:33.519 --> 01:04:34.800
You don't wish you bought more stuff.
01:04:34.880 --> 01:04:37.119
You don't wish you just wish you had more time, but that's where I'm at.
01:04:37.280 --> 01:04:37.840
I got six.
01:04:38.000 --> 01:04:42.559
So starting next year for the next six years, I got one one boy leaving each year for college.
01:04:42.800 --> 01:04:43.199
No kidding.
01:04:43.360 --> 01:04:43.519
Boy.
01:04:43.920 --> 01:04:46.800
Just like, oh God, like this is my last summer with everybody in the house.
01:04:46.960 --> 01:04:48.000
And it's really scary.
01:04:48.639 --> 01:04:52.960
If if that does trigger a hoarding situation in me, it'll be plants.
01:04:53.199 --> 01:04:59.280
For some reason, I affiliate plants with my grandparents, and I seem to really be focused on wanting clean air.
01:04:59.440 --> 01:05:02.800
Maybe it's a function of living in Southern California, and it's awesome.
01:05:03.119 --> 01:05:08.960
You're gonna find me one day just in a jungle of a house with monkeys and plants in an ecosystem.
01:05:09.199 --> 01:05:09.920
Yeah, okay.
01:05:10.079 --> 01:05:10.559
Who cares?
01:05:10.639 --> 01:05:11.599
Then that's happy.
01:05:11.760 --> 01:05:13.119
All right, we gotta leave on this.
01:05:13.280 --> 01:05:15.679
Is everybody that's messy a hoarder?
01:05:16.239 --> 01:05:16.559
No.
01:05:17.360 --> 01:05:19.840
No, some people are just messy, and that's okay.
01:05:20.079 --> 01:05:21.119
And they're happy with it.
01:05:21.199 --> 01:05:25.280
I can't tell you how many people I've met with so many hoarders where I'm like, dude, just let them be.
01:05:25.440 --> 01:05:26.639
Like they're fine.
01:05:26.880 --> 01:05:32.000
Like like clients will call me, like, I want him, I want to make my dad clean up his house before he dies.
01:05:32.239 --> 01:05:32.559
No.
01:05:32.960 --> 01:05:33.280
Why?
01:05:33.440 --> 01:05:34.480
He's not bugging anybody.
01:05:34.639 --> 01:05:35.599
There's no city after him.
01:05:35.760 --> 01:05:36.239
Let him be.
01:05:36.320 --> 01:05:37.280
I'll clean it when he dies.
01:05:37.360 --> 01:05:38.239
Let he's happy.
01:05:38.480 --> 01:05:40.559
And we uh we did have a hoarder this year.
01:05:40.639 --> 01:05:42.559
This is a horrible story, but it's and it'll end on this.
01:05:42.719 --> 01:05:45.119
They found him frozen in the mountains.
01:05:45.360 --> 01:05:51.519
Found I'm not laughing at the story, but they found him frozen sitting on a bench in the middle of his hoard.
01:05:51.679 --> 01:05:55.119
And we all agreed after cleaning his house that he was very happy.
01:05:55.360 --> 01:05:59.440
Like he died outside in the woods in his property, doing what he wanted to do.
01:06:00.079 --> 01:06:05.119
And the family told me they're like, dude, there was literally a mountain lion licking his body when we walked up.
01:06:05.280 --> 01:06:06.960
And I was like, Were you guys sad?
01:06:07.039 --> 01:06:09.039
And they were like, no, we knew he would have been happy.
01:06:09.119 --> 01:06:10.239
Like he died in it.
01:06:10.400 --> 01:06:11.679
And he wasn't bugging anybody.
01:06:11.760 --> 01:06:12.559
And it's like, you know what?
01:06:12.639 --> 01:06:15.039
The guy had 500 acres up in Washington State.
01:06:15.119 --> 01:06:16.159
And he was in the middle of it.
01:06:16.239 --> 01:06:17.199
And I was like, you know what?
01:06:17.280 --> 01:06:18.719
This is a horrible story, but it's not.
01:06:18.880 --> 01:06:19.599
The guy died happy.
01:06:19.679 --> 01:06:20.079
So I think.
01:06:20.320 --> 01:06:22.000
It's not how you start, it's how you finish.
01:06:22.159 --> 01:06:25.280
Don't judge the point of that story is don't judge a hoarders because they're messy.
01:06:25.360 --> 01:06:26.320
Dude, they got a lot going on.
01:06:26.400 --> 01:06:28.320
And they're, there's a reason they're living that way.
01:06:28.480 --> 01:06:29.920
They're smarter than you and me.
01:06:30.079 --> 01:06:32.159
So, like, understand why they're living that way.
01:06:32.480 --> 01:06:33.760
Matt, great insights.
01:06:33.920 --> 01:06:37.039
I can't thank you enough for your time in your busy schedule.
01:06:37.119 --> 01:06:40.880
You know, for everybody to tie it together, check out our episode on grief.
01:06:41.199 --> 01:06:46.320
Uh, we have that episode on grief with Mesa Sawyer from the 1090, the 9010 podcast.
01:06:46.559 --> 01:06:49.039
And uh, we talk about grief and trauma.
01:06:49.119 --> 01:06:54.159
And so that's a good one for code enforcement and any hoarders, and anybody else, human beings who are listening.
01:06:54.239 --> 01:07:01.360
We have one on compassion and code enforcement, how we get the same results through compassion, which has been the subject uh of Matt's and I conversation.
01:07:01.679 --> 01:07:04.719
Most important tool in cleaning is compassion, hands down.
01:07:05.039 --> 01:07:05.519
Love it.
01:07:05.599 --> 01:07:06.480
Thank you, Matt, so much.
01:07:06.800 --> 01:07:07.599
Thank you for joining us.
01:07:08.079 --> 01:07:09.039
Oh, thanks for having me, guys.
01:07:09.119 --> 01:07:09.519
This was great.
01:07:09.679 --> 01:07:10.079
Killer.
01:07:10.159 --> 01:07:16.320
Uh, code enforcement folks, keep an eye out for clutter cleaners coming into a California city near you, including here in Orange County.
01:07:16.559 --> 01:07:17.360
We're all over the country.
01:07:17.440 --> 01:07:18.239
Yeah, all over the country.
01:07:18.400 --> 01:07:20.639
Cluttercleaner.com will help you anywhere in the country.
01:07:20.800 --> 01:07:21.360
That's wonderful.
01:07:21.440 --> 01:07:22.559
And I've read parts of the book.
01:07:22.639 --> 01:07:25.039
I had not gotten through all the book, but I've read part of the book.
01:07:25.119 --> 01:07:28.079
It is very readable, so that's on me, not on Matt.
01:07:28.159 --> 01:07:28.960
And it's a great book.
01:07:29.039 --> 01:07:35.440
It actually includes several pages of literally how to category, categorize, and deal with certain stuff.
01:07:35.599 --> 01:07:36.880
So love the book.
01:07:37.039 --> 01:07:38.159
Thank you for the book, Matt.
01:07:38.320 --> 01:07:39.360
Thank you for being with us.
01:07:39.599 --> 01:07:40.079
Thanks, guys.
01:07:40.239 --> 01:07:40.719
Appreciate it.
01:07:41.039 --> 01:07:44.159
Everybody, stay tuned for the next episode of the True Code Podcast.
01:07:44.320 --> 01:07:46.159
Thank you for joining us here today.
01:07:49.119 --> 01:07:50.800
Thank you for joining us on this journey.
01:07:50.960 --> 01:07:56.800
If you enjoyed what you heard, don't forget to subscribe, follow, rate, and review us wherever you're listening right now.
01:07:56.960 --> 01:07:58.320
Until next time.