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welcome to Thriller 1 0 1 podcast.
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I am here with Bianca Maray, author of, which is a moonshine manner.
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Hum.
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If you don't know the words, if you wanna Make God laugh, and her latest novel, A Most Puzzling Murder, which was released on June 10th, and she is also the co-host of the popular podcast.
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The Shit No One Tells You About Writing.
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Which is aimed at helping emerging writers become published, and she is here to talk about her novel that just came out a most puzzling murder.
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Bianca, thank you so much for being on the Thriller 1 0 1 Podcast.
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Yeah, thanks so much for inviting me, David.
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It's always so lovely to chat with you.
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Yeah, we, we've had a, a few opportunities to, to talk over the years from a couple different books and different angles, so it is always fun to talk to you.
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You have such a great view of the writing world.
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So it's just so much fun to chat.
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Thank you.
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Yeah.
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So I wanna get right into it here.
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I would love for you just to tell people who, who haven't read a most puzzling murder yet.
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What, what is that book about?
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Yeah.
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It is quite a rump of a book.
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It's kind of like a soap opera with a royal magical family where all the members are vying for dominance.
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We have, we calling it.
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Glass onion or knives out Meet succession meets Prince Harry's spare.
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So it's a bit of everything.
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It's also a bit of choose your own adventure and it's a puzzle book.
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You get to email the main character and she emails you back.
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But essentially it's about the main character, destiny Whip, who is an enigma artist.
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She was a child prodigy.
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She's experienced some grief, and so she's become a recluse.
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And one day a mysterious letter arrives and she needs to decode the hidden message in the letter to go to Erie Island to unlock the secrets of her past.
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Dun, dun dun.
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Yeah, it's such a fun read.
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I mean, just really I'm, when I was reading it and, and we're gonna talk about this a a little bit, I'd love to hear where this came from, but all of the choose your own adventure and the clues and all of these twists and turns, and I, I, as, as somebody who writes and obviously an added reader, I was reading this and I was thinking like, could I pull this off?
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And I was like, no, I don't think I could.
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I'm dying to know, like, did this.
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Was this an idea that came kind of fully flashed, or were you kind of like, oh, let's do like one thing and then another and then another and like all of a sudden you have these, you know, choose your adventure email for clues.
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You got puzzles, like you got all kinds of fun stuff here.
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Where did that come from?
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Yeah, I think if the idea had arrived fully formed, I would've been like, Nope, no thanks.
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Not doing that.
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Because this writing, this book was like juggling jello, you know, or like wrestling with an octopus.
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It was insane.
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It was, there was so many moving parts, so it definitely wasn't something that came to me.
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Fully because I, I would've gone like, no, I don't think I can do it.
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So I was just, I was getting deeply frustrated at one point with how as a society, we seem to be losing our critical thinking skills.
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You know, things are being dumbed down so much that if something can't be conveyed in.
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One graphic in a meme, people don't seem to understand the nuance, et cetera.
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So I love things like philosophical thought experiments, things that really make you think.
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And I was going, how can I write a book that really challenges the reader to think I love doing puzzles?
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So I was like, how can I incorporate those elements?
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And I just wanted readers to have so much fun because I don't know about you, David, but when I was a kid.
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I wanted to live and breathe the books I was reading.
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I wanted to crawl into the pages and become a character, and I just wanted this whole world to be my world.
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And I was going, how can I do that for adult readers?
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Give them some of that sense of fun in terms of the choose your own adventure chapters and make them feel so fully engaged that the.
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Main character becomes like their best friend who they're emailing and she's emailing them back.
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So as the story went, each part grew.
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I mean, the, the Choose Your Own Adventure chapters came out of my frustration with backstory and context because each story gets to the point where you need backstory, you need some context.
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And I hate just having a normal flashback or even.
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Dual timeline narratives.
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Sorry.
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Whenever I say that on the podcast, people think I'm saying Jewell with A-J-E-W-E-L.
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And then they, somebody mailed me and was like, what kind of jewels are these?
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So dual, dual timeline narratives.
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And I was going, how can I make backstory more interesting as opposed to, here we go, we're getting back into the past.
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Now it becomes, okay, you're gonna get the past or you're gonna get some context, but you're gonna get different clues depending on which.
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Choices you make.
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So that was just to make that more fun and interesting.
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And the emailing component came from, I sent friends some of the puzzles and some of them were going, oh, these are way too easy.
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And some of them were going, these are way too difficult.
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And a friend texted me and said, just give me a clue.
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And when I gave him the clue, he'd figured it out.
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So I was like, oh, it's a pretty, I can't text all my readers.
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How can I, Ooh, email.
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So, you know, the, like this, this thing evolved as I went along.
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Yeah.
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No, that makes so much sense.
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And it is, I think, I think you nailed it.
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It did feel really immersive because we had, you know, because it felt like the book existed outside of the confines of the book.
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And I think that that's, that's a really great point.
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And, and it did add to the, to the reader experience.
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So tell me a little bit about where this all went.
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So did you have like characters in mind?
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Did you have plot in mind?
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Did you have like the mystery?
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Like what, what order did all these things kind of come into your head and how did they, that translate into a draft?
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Yeah, so once I decided I was doing a closed your murder mystery you know, I interview a lot of authors on my podcast and all of them who write in the genre said to me, you need to closely plot, tightly plot a closed your murder mystery.
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And I don't know about you, maybe it's the Capricorn in me, but as soon as somebody tells me I have to do something one way, I'm like, really?
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Do I?
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Maybe I could do it another way.
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And so I have always been a pantser and I was like, can I, pants are closed a murder mystery.
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But I, knowing who died, how they died, who killed them, why they killed them.
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And I was like, let's see if I can.
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And so for me.
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I had a premise.
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I knew that there was this magical family, that they were very dysfunctional.
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I knew that there was this dark and stormy gothic vibes that there would be an island, but, and I knew someone would've to get killed.
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Beyond that, I didn't know anything.
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So for me, I always.
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Focus on building characters that I can really get on board with.
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'cause I feel like once a character is fully formed in my mind, once they feel real, I will follow them and I give them agency.
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And that is how the plot unfolds.
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So it took me quite a while.
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I, I, on the podcast, I talk about circling the building of your work to find an entryway into it.
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Some stories are the front door, some stories are the back door.
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Some stories are the fire escape on the third floor or the chimney.
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And this book, I had to keep circling it to really nail who Destiny was, what she wanted, her backstory, where she came from, her misbelief, et cetera.
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And once I found that, I then released her and I just ran behind her and tried to keep up.
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That's amazing.
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I, I knew, I remember from the previous podcast that you mentioned that you were a Panther, and so I was wondering, because typically a story like this, like is.
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Historically very difficult to pants your way through.
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Like you've gotta usually find your kind of fence post.
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So it's interesting to hear that you were kind of like, no.
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Let's see if, let's see if I can just.
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Follow through.
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But I think, I think the thing that made it so possible for you is, the thing I wanna talk to you about is your characters, because your characters do really come across as very unique.
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They always have, I, you seem to like a larger cast of characters.
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And they all kind of have their own little quirks and things that make them feel so three dimensional for readers.
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And so it sounds like.
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You, how much character work are you doing?
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Do you feel like you're actively looking for character or do you feel like it happens as you're kind of writing around, like you said, kind of circling the building?
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Are you, is that your avenue into character or are you using characters you kinda like have a sense of them right away?
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I'll, I'll sometimes have a sense of them.
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Like I knew Destiny was unusual.
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I knew she was eccentric.
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I saw her, you know, just, just being, she refers to herself as a lone pelican in a flamboyant of flamingos.
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So I knew she was an outlier, but it took me a while to really figure out, you know, what made her tick.
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Why she was so alienated, why she was so sad.
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So, you know, I'll start with the premise and then I'll start writing.
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You know, I, I, I started writing the story where Destiny is already on the island.
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Chapter one was her clutching her emotional support urn, and she's making her way up the cobblestone streets to find the Grimshaw in, in, in tn.
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And so.
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That's how I started writing it.
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And then I started realizing I didn't understand her motivation.
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Why was she there?
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What made her arrive there?
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And I tend to do that with most of my stories.
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I start far too far into the story and then I have to backtrack.
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And then I'll come back and, and fill all that stuff in.
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So I find I like to do it organically every time my character makes a decision.
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And I don't understand why they're making that decision or why they're choosing that particular route.
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I'll stop and I'll be like.
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What is it about their childhood?
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What is it about that happened last week?
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What did their therapist say to them?
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You know why would they do something like this when most other people wouldn't?
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And so, I will start to flesh them out, and I honestly only know the character by the end of the book.
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And then, you know, I go back the whole time while I'm writing.
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I'm not someone who writes a draft from start to finish and then goes back as I figure each thing out, like as I figured out.
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Oh, this person looks suspicious.
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I would go back and plant those curiosity seeds so that it feels organic, because I want my readers to be able to read my book, go back and read it all over again and go, aha, here was the clue.
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I missed this clue.
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It was here all along.
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So it's, you know, it's a, it's a lot of work.
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It's, it's layering the entire time.
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Yeah, I mean this is why I love talking to you and having you on the podcast.
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'cause I feel like that is such a goldmine of information and like packed into like two and a half minutes right there, like, so much fun to think about.
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And I think too your, your strengths like I mentioned among your strengths is your character work.
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And I feel like that's something that I struggle with so much.
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I know a lot of writers struggle with is.
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How do, how are we finding ways to uncover character?
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And I think just listening to you I feel like sometimes I try to force it, right?
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Like I feel like a lot of writers try to like, figure out that the, the character before we start or try to, we're really like interrogating them.
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And it sounds like to me you're just like, you get enough of them.
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Built that you can then follow them and instead of trying to figure, trying to force them somewhere, you are just figuring out why they're going where they're going.
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Do I have that correct?
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Yeah.
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I mean, if you think about, let think about you at a conference and you go to a bar and you have a drink.
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And somebody sits next to you, you start chatting with that person, right?
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You just talk about the weather or what they're doing there or what they like to drink or what they're reading and you start to get information from them.
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If you start to interrogate them hugely, they're probably gonna think there's something a bit odd about you and they might like pick up their drink and run away.
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'Cause you're gonna come across as way too intense.
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And I feel the same with my characters.
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Like I don't wanna put a spotlight on them and interrogate them because they're gonna get scared and they're gonna run the hell away.
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And in the same way that like any good friendship forms over time, more lunches, more dinners, more walks in the park, I feel like it should be the same with your characters.
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They will slowly reveal themselves to you as they trust you.
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And I'm a big believer in trusting my subconscious, you know, because.
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All character comes from our subconscious, all plot comes from our subconscious, and I find that when I, I'm a control freak in pretty much all aspects of my life.
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David, I'm a Capricorn, a type control freak.
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I try and control everything.
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I have spreadsheets and to-do lists.
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It's insane.
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The one part of my life I do not control myself in is my writing.
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That's my playground.
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And I'm like, I will not control it.
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I will let the writing control me and I, I give myself permission to just, you know, let those little nuggets reveal themselves to me.
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And so far it's not a process that works for everybody.
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I've spoken to many, many authors and many of them get chest pain when I, when I tell them that this is my process and I'll get chest pain when they tell me about their process.
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But this is why it's so important to find what works for you.
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I, I think that's so cool.
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And so important for people to hear.
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I, I'm, I'm curious and, and not giving anything away here, but there, there is a, there is a thematic thread here of grief and guilt and, and these kind of bigger issues, which, which I think is so important, really grounds the work.
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It's not, you know, it's not just a murder mystery.
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It also has these big thematic threads.
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So how intentional was that from the beginning?
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Did you set out to tell this story or is this the story that kind of revealed itself?
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Through the character.
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Yeah.
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There's certain things about human nature that always fascinate me.
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I think every book I write, whether it was my.
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Literary historical fiction, or whether it was my witches or moonshine manner or this, there are certain things that are always gonna fascinate me as a writer.
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One of them is grief.
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Because it's such a human thing.
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We all go through it and we all deal with it so very differently.
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Other things are overcoming adversity.
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Another thing is identity, like how you find your identity, how you find your people, found family.
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So I feel like those are things I'm always gonna be writing about.
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But I never stop to think too much about themes.
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When I'm, when I sit down to write, I'll just be like, it would be nice to explore, you know, grief and identity.
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And how, again, it always comes back to character, like what drives her?
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What is it about the grief that drives her?
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To accept this weird invitation and go to an island where she doesn't know anybody.
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What is it about that that motivates her?
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And what makes that plausible?
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And I find that if we really get to know our characters and give them all that backstory and flesh them out, they are.
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You know, they're gonna lead us to those themes anyway.
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And again, I feel like they're so subconscious.
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I feel every writer's got certain things that fascinates them about the human condition, and we are just gonna keep exploring certain things over and over.
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Yeah.
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I, I love that.
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I, I think too it goes to kind of our role, I think as writers is to, to not just tell a great story, but also to kind of investigate the, the human condition for readers, but also for ourselves.
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I feel like that's one of the things we don't talk enough about, especially when we're talking about genre.
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I think a lot of people get stuck on the, like, genre conventions.
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And I talk about this a lot, obviously with thrillers.
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But Myster Mystery is kind of in there as well.
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Like sometimes I think as a.
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As a community podcast, like group of people, especially when we're talking about beta readers, like we're thinking about like pacing and we're thinking about like plot twists and like I think sometimes we have to go back to like what is the purpose of books and literature?
00:15:57.105 --> 00:16:02.654
And I think in some ways, I think a lot of us were drawn to write stories because it helps us better understand the world.
00:16:02.684 --> 00:16:05.774
And I think for readers it helps them better understand the world as well.
00:16:05.774 --> 00:16:07.004
And so I think that's so important.
00:16:07.284 --> 00:16:08.304
And I think it's something.
00:16:08.649 --> 00:16:10.330
That writers need to be thinking about.
00:16:10.379 --> 00:16:14.580
And so I, I love that you kind of have, I like that you have a few that you hit on.
00:16:14.580 --> 00:16:15.389
I think that's really fun.
00:16:15.419 --> 00:16:20.100
Sometimes I feel like I need to have more, but I'm like, maybe I just need to go deeper into the ones I'm, I'm working on.
00:16:20.100 --> 00:16:21.029
I think that's really cool.
00:16:21.269 --> 00:16:27.389
And do you, are you like, is this, do you going through another pass, are you editing more thoroughly for theme?
00:16:27.389 --> 00:16:32.370
Like, do you, do you have to worry about am I going too heavy or am I, am I going too light here?
00:16:32.370 --> 00:16:34.529
Is am I being clear about my themes?
00:16:34.529 --> 00:16:36.179
Like how are you navigating that balance?
00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:38.669
Yeah, I mean, every book's different.
00:16:38.669 --> 00:16:45.840
And I say every book teaches you how to write it because, you know, I've now written 6, 7, 8 books.
00:16:45.960 --> 00:16:47.039
I've published four.
00:16:47.340 --> 00:16:49.710
But every book is so entirely different.
00:16:49.740 --> 00:16:54.240
And some books, you know, you'll sit down and you'll be like, okay, this is what I wanna explore with this book.
00:16:54.240 --> 00:16:59.720
This is, you know like with the witches of Moonshine, MENA, I knew very clearly I wanted to look at misogyny.
00:17:00.044 --> 00:17:10.664
I want you to look at identity and I wanna look at loss of memory and who are we when we forget ourselves and can those we love remember us back into existence?
00:17:10.934 --> 00:17:13.184
So for that book, I was very clear on my themes.
00:17:13.434 --> 00:17:15.865
This book, the Most Puzzling Murder.
00:17:16.119 --> 00:17:17.589
I was just following the characters.
00:17:17.589 --> 00:17:23.349
I was focusing more on plots and themes kind of revealed themselves to me in the new book I'm working on.
00:17:23.529 --> 00:17:37.095
I found that I was so obsessed with themes that I was becoming way too heavy handed in terms of the writing of it, and I was writing in the third person, which allowed my author's voice as narrator.
00:17:37.664 --> 00:17:56.365
To constantly be interjecting with my take on things and I had to completely unpack that, put in a much younger narrator, and do it in the first person so that I could get the hell outta my own way and let my character speak for herself as opposed to constantly like hitting readers over the head with the theme.
00:17:57.285 --> 00:17:57.585
Yeah.
00:17:57.615 --> 00:17:58.724
Oh, that's so interesting.
00:17:58.724 --> 00:18:06.795
I love, I love the idea of, of shifting perspective and point of view and character as a way to, to get your own, get outta your own way.
00:18:06.914 --> 00:18:11.355
And I don't know how you knew this, but I don't know how you knew my next question was gonna be about what you're working on next.
00:18:11.355 --> 00:18:14.035
So how much can you tell us about what, what you're working on?
00:18:14.684 --> 00:18:31.585
Yeah, so I'm going from a book that had, what, 12 or 13 POVs, if you, if you include all the Choose Your Own Adventure chapters to, for the very first time in my life, writing a book from one point of view, one main point of view, character I'm going back to my roots.
00:18:31.585 --> 00:18:34.404
It's once again sort of book club fiction.
00:18:35.019 --> 00:18:42.970
This is dystopian fiction and it's what happens in a dystopian world when the next civil war is between men and women.
00:18:43.450 --> 00:18:45.579
So that is, yeah.
00:18:45.579 --> 00:18:47.769
So it's, it's a big themes.
00:18:47.769 --> 00:18:53.460
Grappling with a lot lots of research, but I'm sort of 15,000 words into it.
00:18:53.509 --> 00:18:54.890
And you know, we.
00:18:55.700 --> 00:18:57.230
We are going to see where we go with it.
00:18:57.740 --> 00:18:58.609
That's amazing.
00:18:58.660 --> 00:18:59.740
That, that sounds really interesting.
00:18:59.740 --> 00:19:06.190
I can't wait to have you back on the podcast so we can talk about it because it's always so much fun to to chat with you about, about what you're working on.
00:19:06.190 --> 00:19:15.430
So yeah, so I, I do wanna wrap up here, but before we do I do want to, to say how much I appreciate, and I know I, I speak for the rest of the writing community who've.
00:19:15.775 --> 00:19:16.825
Listen to your podcast.
00:19:16.855 --> 00:19:17.875
You know, the shit no one tells you about.
00:19:17.875 --> 00:19:20.785
Writing is such a, a wonderful resource.
00:19:20.785 --> 00:19:23.484
Whenever I talk to writers, I'm always like, well, what resources do you use?
00:19:23.484 --> 00:19:31.224
Almost everyone either mentions the shit, no one tells you about writing, or if they don't, I'm like, well, you should be listening to the shit no one tells you about writing.
00:19:31.224 --> 00:19:36.924
So I first wanna just say on behalf of, of the writers who are working right now, thank you so much for the work you do there.
00:19:37.539 --> 00:19:38.319
Thank you, David.
00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:39.460
That's so lovely of you to say.
00:19:39.460 --> 00:19:40.900
I really, really appreciate that.
00:19:40.960 --> 00:19:43.059
I have two excellent co-hosts.
00:19:43.059 --> 00:19:44.680
They're both literary agents.
00:19:44.940 --> 00:19:49.920
And yeah, we just, we are just really trying to get our listeners to get published.
00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:50.970
That is our biggest goal.
00:19:51.240 --> 00:19:51.420
Yeah.
00:19:51.420 --> 00:19:51.960
Super cool.
00:19:52.089 --> 00:19:57.099
So my last question for you is just where if people are listening to this and they wanna find out more about you, where can they find you?
00:19:57.099 --> 00:19:57.940
Where can they look you up?
00:19:58.329 --> 00:20:01.000
Yeah, so the podcast has an amazing substack.
00:20:01.029 --> 00:20:04.420
So if you look on Substack for the shit, no one tells you about writing.
00:20:04.730 --> 00:20:09.170
We send, we have two newsletters a week, one's paid for, one is free.
00:20:09.450 --> 00:20:15.750
You can find me on Instagram, Bianca Marie, author, and you can find the shit no one tells you about writing on Instagram as well.
00:20:15.750 --> 00:20:16.920
We most active there.
00:20:18.075 --> 00:20:18.434
Lovely.
00:20:18.434 --> 00:20:21.555
So I will link to that stuff in, in the description.
00:20:21.585 --> 00:20:24.525
Quick, quick access to people who are, are listening to this.
00:20:24.684 --> 00:20:26.575
Bianca, as always, thank you so much.
00:20:26.575 --> 00:20:27.500
I really appreciate you taking the time.
00:20:28.255 --> 00:20:29.365
I appreciate you, David.
00:20:29.365 --> 00:20:29.875
Thank you.
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:01.860
welcome to Thriller 1 0 1 podcast.
00:00:01.860 --> 00:00:06.000
I am here with Bianca Maray, author of, which is a moonshine manner.
00:00:06.000 --> 00:00:06.179
Hum.
00:00:06.179 --> 00:00:16.620
If you don't know the words, if you wanna Make God laugh, and her latest novel, A Most Puzzling Murder, which was released on June 10th, and she is also the co-host of the popular podcast.
00:00:16.800 --> 00:00:17.910
The Shit No One Tells You About Writing.
00:00:18.429 --> 00:00:26.589
Which is aimed at helping emerging writers become published, and she is here to talk about her novel that just came out a most puzzling murder.
00:00:26.589 --> 00:00:29.589
Bianca, thank you so much for being on the Thriller 1 0 1 Podcast.
00:00:29.859 --> 00:00:31.660
Yeah, thanks so much for inviting me, David.
00:00:31.660 --> 00:00:33.189
It's always so lovely to chat with you.
00:00:33.490 --> 00:00:41.649
Yeah, we, we've had a, a few opportunities to, to talk over the years from a couple different books and different angles, so it is always fun to talk to you.
00:00:41.909 --> 00:00:44.673
You have such a great view of the writing world.
00:00:44.673 --> 00:00:45.890
So it's just so much fun to chat.
00:00:45.909 --> 00:00:46.570
Thank you.
00:00:46.659 --> 00:00:46.810
Yeah.
00:00:47.500 --> 00:00:49.270
So I wanna get right into it here.
00:00:49.299 --> 00:00:54.670
I would love for you just to tell people who, who haven't read a most puzzling murder yet.
00:00:54.729 --> 00:00:56.109
What, what is that book about?
00:00:56.710 --> 00:00:57.009
Yeah.
00:00:57.009 --> 00:00:59.170
It is quite a rump of a book.
00:00:59.170 --> 00:01:07.719
It's kind of like a soap opera with a royal magical family where all the members are vying for dominance.
00:01:08.150 --> 00:01:10.219
We have, we calling it.
00:01:10.894 --> 00:01:16.775
Glass onion or knives out Meet succession meets Prince Harry's spare.
00:01:17.055 --> 00:01:18.375
So it's a bit of everything.
00:01:18.555 --> 00:01:22.424
It's also a bit of choose your own adventure and it's a puzzle book.
00:01:22.665 --> 00:01:25.515
You get to email the main character and she emails you back.
00:01:25.959 --> 00:01:31.000
But essentially it's about the main character, destiny Whip, who is an enigma artist.
00:01:31.209 --> 00:01:32.950
She was a child prodigy.
00:01:33.170 --> 00:01:37.939
She's experienced some grief, and so she's become a recluse.
00:01:38.060 --> 00:01:49.069
And one day a mysterious letter arrives and she needs to decode the hidden message in the letter to go to Erie Island to unlock the secrets of her past.
00:01:49.159 --> 00:01:50.750
Dun, dun dun.
00:01:51.275 --> 00:01:52.984
Yeah, it's such a fun read.
00:01:53.034 --> 00:02:09.235
I mean, just really I'm, when I was reading it and, and we're gonna talk about this a a little bit, I'd love to hear where this came from, but all of the choose your own adventure and the clues and all of these twists and turns, and I, I, as, as somebody who writes and obviously an added reader, I was reading this and I was thinking like, could I pull this off?
00:02:09.235 --> 00:02:11.395
And I was like, no, I don't think I could.
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I'm dying to know, like, did this.
00:02:13.539 --> 00:02:22.990
Was this an idea that came kind of fully flashed, or were you kind of like, oh, let's do like one thing and then another and then another and like all of a sudden you have these, you know, choose your adventure email for clues.
00:02:22.990 --> 00:02:25.060
You got puzzles, like you got all kinds of fun stuff here.
00:02:25.060 --> 00:02:25.750
Where did that come from?
00:02:26.620 --> 00:02:31.539
Yeah, I think if the idea had arrived fully formed, I would've been like, Nope, no thanks.
00:02:31.810 --> 00:02:32.710
Not doing that.
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Because this writing, this book was like juggling jello, you know, or like wrestling with an octopus.
00:02:39.949 --> 00:02:41.210
It was insane.
00:02:41.210 --> 00:02:46.175
It was, there was so many moving parts, so it definitely wasn't something that came to me.
00:02:46.745 --> 00:02:50.044
Fully because I, I would've gone like, no, I don't think I can do it.
00:02:50.344 --> 00:02:59.254
So I was just, I was getting deeply frustrated at one point with how as a society, we seem to be losing our critical thinking skills.
00:02:59.585 --> 00:03:04.264
You know, things are being dumbed down so much that if something can't be conveyed in.
00:03:04.685 --> 00:03:10.145
One graphic in a meme, people don't seem to understand the nuance, et cetera.
00:03:10.444 --> 00:03:16.384
So I love things like philosophical thought experiments, things that really make you think.
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And I was going, how can I write a book that really challenges the reader to think I love doing puzzles?
00:03:22.925 --> 00:03:25.715
So I was like, how can I incorporate those elements?
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And I just wanted readers to have so much fun because I don't know about you, David, but when I was a kid.
00:03:32.599 --> 00:03:36.830
I wanted to live and breathe the books I was reading.
00:03:37.039 --> 00:03:43.819
I wanted to crawl into the pages and become a character, and I just wanted this whole world to be my world.
00:03:43.969 --> 00:03:47.120
And I was going, how can I do that for adult readers?
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Give them some of that sense of fun in terms of the choose your own adventure chapters and make them feel so fully engaged that the.
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Main character becomes like their best friend who they're emailing and she's emailing them back.
00:03:59.245 --> 00:04:02.724
So as the story went, each part grew.
00:04:02.965 --> 00:04:15.775
I mean, the, the Choose Your Own Adventure chapters came out of my frustration with backstory and context because each story gets to the point where you need backstory, you need some context.
00:04:15.985 --> 00:04:18.925
And I hate just having a normal flashback or even.
00:04:19.360 --> 00:04:21.189
Dual timeline narratives.
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Sorry.
00:04:21.759 --> 00:04:27.129
Whenever I say that on the podcast, people think I'm saying Jewell with A-J-E-W-E-L.
00:04:27.639 --> 00:04:31.300
And then they, somebody mailed me and was like, what kind of jewels are these?
00:04:31.300 --> 00:04:34.810
So dual, dual timeline narratives.
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And I was going, how can I make backstory more interesting as opposed to, here we go, we're getting back into the past.
00:04:40.750 --> 00:04:47.800
Now it becomes, okay, you're gonna get the past or you're gonna get some context, but you're gonna get different clues depending on which.
00:04:48.160 --> 00:04:49.269
Choices you make.
00:04:49.269 --> 00:04:51.850
So that was just to make that more fun and interesting.
00:04:52.209 --> 00:04:59.319
And the emailing component came from, I sent friends some of the puzzles and some of them were going, oh, these are way too easy.
00:04:59.319 --> 00:05:01.420
And some of them were going, these are way too difficult.
00:05:01.689 --> 00:05:04.149
And a friend texted me and said, just give me a clue.
00:05:04.329 --> 00:05:06.564
And when I gave him the clue, he'd figured it out.
00:05:06.564 --> 00:05:08.980
So I was like, oh, it's a pretty, I can't text all my readers.
00:05:08.980 --> 00:05:11.110
How can I, Ooh, email.
00:05:11.319 --> 00:05:15.519
So, you know, the, like this, this thing evolved as I went along.
00:05:16.194 --> 00:05:16.524
Yeah.
00:05:16.524 --> 00:05:17.545
No, that makes so much sense.
00:05:17.574 --> 00:05:18.865
And it is, I think, I think you nailed it.
00:05:18.865 --> 00:05:27.355
It did feel really immersive because we had, you know, because it felt like the book existed outside of the confines of the book.
00:05:27.384 --> 00:05:29.485
And I think that that's, that's a really great point.
00:05:29.860 --> 00:05:31.959
And, and it did add to the, to the reader experience.
00:05:31.959 --> 00:05:34.629
So tell me a little bit about where this all went.
00:05:34.629 --> 00:05:37.029
So did you have like characters in mind?
00:05:37.060 --> 00:05:38.889
Did you have plot in mind?
00:05:38.920 --> 00:05:40.990
Did you have like the mystery?
00:05:40.990 --> 00:05:46.365
Like what, what order did all these things kind of come into your head and how did they, that translate into a draft?
00:05:47.920 --> 00:06:02.779
Yeah, so once I decided I was doing a closed your murder mystery you know, I interview a lot of authors on my podcast and all of them who write in the genre said to me, you need to closely plot, tightly plot a closed your murder mystery.
00:06:03.185 --> 00:06:11.134
And I don't know about you, maybe it's the Capricorn in me, but as soon as somebody tells me I have to do something one way, I'm like, really?
00:06:11.555 --> 00:06:12.095
Do I?
00:06:12.095 --> 00:06:13.504
Maybe I could do it another way.
00:06:13.805 --> 00:06:19.894
And so I have always been a pantser and I was like, can I, pants are closed a murder mystery.
00:06:19.894 --> 00:06:23.644
But I, knowing who died, how they died, who killed them, why they killed them.
00:06:24.035 --> 00:06:25.774
And I was like, let's see if I can.
00:06:26.134 --> 00:06:27.485
And so for me.
00:06:28.220 --> 00:06:29.060
I had a premise.
00:06:29.060 --> 00:06:33.430
I knew that there was this magical family, that they were very dysfunctional.
00:06:33.430 --> 00:06:40.990
I knew that there was this dark and stormy gothic vibes that there would be an island, but, and I knew someone would've to get killed.
00:06:40.990 --> 00:06:42.759
Beyond that, I didn't know anything.
00:06:43.000 --> 00:06:44.095
So for me, I always.
00:06:44.600 --> 00:06:48.860
Focus on building characters that I can really get on board with.
00:06:48.889 --> 00:06:56.540
'cause I feel like once a character is fully formed in my mind, once they feel real, I will follow them and I give them agency.
00:06:56.689 --> 00:06:58.759
And that is how the plot unfolds.
00:06:58.790 --> 00:07:00.920
So it took me quite a while.
00:07:00.949 --> 00:07:07.069
I, I, on the podcast, I talk about circling the building of your work to find an entryway into it.
00:07:07.069 --> 00:07:10.250
Some stories are the front door, some stories are the back door.
00:07:10.550 --> 00:07:14.180
Some stories are the fire escape on the third floor or the chimney.
00:07:14.509 --> 00:07:24.259
And this book, I had to keep circling it to really nail who Destiny was, what she wanted, her backstory, where she came from, her misbelief, et cetera.
00:07:24.470 --> 00:07:30.620
And once I found that, I then released her and I just ran behind her and tried to keep up.
00:07:31.519 --> 00:07:32.029
That's amazing.
00:07:32.035 --> 00:07:40.759
I, I knew, I remember from the previous podcast that you mentioned that you were a Panther, and so I was wondering, because typically a story like this, like is.
00:07:41.134 --> 00:07:43.685
Historically very difficult to pants your way through.
00:07:43.685 --> 00:07:47.194
Like you've gotta usually find your kind of fence post.
00:07:47.194 --> 00:07:49.754
So it's interesting to hear that you were kind of like, no.
00:07:49.759 --> 00:07:51.069
Let's see if, let's see if I can just.
00:07:51.750 --> 00:07:52.139
Follow through.
00:07:52.139 --> 00:08:04.019
But I think, I think the thing that made it so possible for you is, the thing I wanna talk to you about is your characters, because your characters do really come across as very unique.
00:08:04.089 --> 00:08:07.959
They always have, I, you seem to like a larger cast of characters.
00:08:08.149 --> 00:08:13.819
And they all kind of have their own little quirks and things that make them feel so three dimensional for readers.
00:08:14.050 --> 00:08:15.459
And so it sounds like.
00:08:15.759 --> 00:08:18.009
You, how much character work are you doing?
00:08:18.009 --> 00:08:25.509
Do you feel like you're actively looking for character or do you feel like it happens as you're kind of writing around, like you said, kind of circling the building?
00:08:25.660 --> 00:08:32.019
Are you, is that your avenue into character or are you using characters you kinda like have a sense of them right away?
00:08:32.860 --> 00:08:34.690
I'll, I'll sometimes have a sense of them.
00:08:34.690 --> 00:08:37.179
Like I knew Destiny was unusual.
00:08:37.179 --> 00:08:39.309
I knew she was eccentric.
00:08:39.549 --> 00:08:48.700
I saw her, you know, just, just being, she refers to herself as a lone pelican in a flamboyant of flamingos.
00:08:48.879 --> 00:08:55.779
So I knew she was an outlier, but it took me a while to really figure out, you know, what made her tick.
00:08:55.779 --> 00:09:00.309
Why she was so alienated, why she was so sad.
00:09:00.379 --> 00:09:05.299
So, you know, I'll start with the premise and then I'll start writing.
00:09:05.389 --> 00:09:10.789
You know, I, I, I started writing the story where Destiny is already on the island.
00:09:10.789 --> 00:09:21.710
Chapter one was her clutching her emotional support urn, and she's making her way up the cobblestone streets to find the Grimshaw in, in, in tn.
00:09:22.129 --> 00:09:22.669
And so.
00:09:23.679 --> 00:09:25.090
That's how I started writing it.
00:09:25.090 --> 00:09:28.419
And then I started realizing I didn't understand her motivation.
00:09:28.419 --> 00:09:29.440
Why was she there?
00:09:29.679 --> 00:09:31.120
What made her arrive there?
00:09:31.240 --> 00:09:33.220
And I tend to do that with most of my stories.
00:09:33.220 --> 00:09:37.450
I start far too far into the story and then I have to backtrack.
00:09:37.820 --> 00:09:41.090
And then I'll come back and, and fill all that stuff in.
00:09:41.360 --> 00:09:46.580
So I find I like to do it organically every time my character makes a decision.
00:09:47.240 --> 00:09:51.860
And I don't understand why they're making that decision or why they're choosing that particular route.
00:09:51.889 --> 00:09:52.894
I'll stop and I'll be like.
00:09:53.554 --> 00:09:55.174
What is it about their childhood?
00:09:55.174 --> 00:09:56.825
What is it about that happened last week?
00:09:56.825 --> 00:09:58.475
What did their therapist say to them?
00:09:58.804 --> 00:10:02.544
You know why would they do something like this when most other people wouldn't?
00:10:02.725 --> 00:10:09.115
And so, I will start to flesh them out, and I honestly only know the character by the end of the book.
00:10:09.455 --> 00:10:12.544
And then, you know, I go back the whole time while I'm writing.
00:10:12.544 --> 00:10:19.715
I'm not someone who writes a draft from start to finish and then goes back as I figure each thing out, like as I figured out.
00:10:19.754 --> 00:10:21.825
Oh, this person looks suspicious.
00:10:22.034 --> 00:10:33.705
I would go back and plant those curiosity seeds so that it feels organic, because I want my readers to be able to read my book, go back and read it all over again and go, aha, here was the clue.
00:10:33.705 --> 00:10:34.664
I missed this clue.
00:10:34.664 --> 00:10:35.804
It was here all along.
00:10:36.195 --> 00:10:38.715
So it's, you know, it's a, it's a lot of work.
00:10:38.715 --> 00:10:40.544
It's, it's layering the entire time.
00:10:41.565 --> 00:10:45.394
Yeah, I mean this is why I love talking to you and having you on the podcast.
00:10:45.424 --> 00:10:53.644
'cause I feel like that is such a goldmine of information and like packed into like two and a half minutes right there, like, so much fun to think about.
00:10:53.644 --> 00:10:58.125
And I think too your, your strengths like I mentioned among your strengths is your character work.
00:10:58.125 --> 00:11:00.914
And I feel like that's something that I struggle with so much.
00:11:00.914 --> 00:11:02.414
I know a lot of writers struggle with is.
00:11:02.690 --> 00:11:05.960
How do, how are we finding ways to uncover character?
00:11:05.960 --> 00:11:09.500
And I think just listening to you I feel like sometimes I try to force it, right?
00:11:09.500 --> 00:11:17.389
Like I feel like a lot of writers try to like, figure out that the, the character before we start or try to, we're really like interrogating them.
00:11:17.389 --> 00:11:21.110
And it sounds like to me you're just like, you get enough of them.
00:11:21.664 --> 00:11:33.304
Built that you can then follow them and instead of trying to figure, trying to force them somewhere, you are just figuring out why they're going where they're going.
00:11:33.514 --> 00:11:34.654
Do I have that correct?
00:11:34.985 --> 00:11:35.315
Yeah.
00:11:35.315 --> 00:11:42.304
I mean, if you think about, let think about you at a conference and you go to a bar and you have a drink.
00:11:42.534 --> 00:11:46.615
And somebody sits next to you, you start chatting with that person, right?
00:11:46.615 --> 00:11:54.024
You just talk about the weather or what they're doing there or what they like to drink or what they're reading and you start to get information from them.
00:11:54.325 --> 00:12:02.095
If you start to interrogate them hugely, they're probably gonna think there's something a bit odd about you and they might like pick up their drink and run away.
00:12:02.404 --> 00:12:03.960
'Cause you're gonna come across as way too intense.
00:12:04.644 --> 00:12:06.595
And I feel the same with my characters.
00:12:06.595 --> 00:12:12.115
Like I don't wanna put a spotlight on them and interrogate them because they're gonna get scared and they're gonna run the hell away.
00:12:12.475 --> 00:12:24.565
And in the same way that like any good friendship forms over time, more lunches, more dinners, more walks in the park, I feel like it should be the same with your characters.
00:12:24.565 --> 00:12:28.884
They will slowly reveal themselves to you as they trust you.
00:12:29.195 --> 00:12:33.544
And I'm a big believer in trusting my subconscious, you know, because.
00:12:33.784 --> 00:12:43.205
All character comes from our subconscious, all plot comes from our subconscious, and I find that when I, I'm a control freak in pretty much all aspects of my life.
00:12:43.205 --> 00:12:45.725
David, I'm a Capricorn, a type control freak.
00:12:45.754 --> 00:12:47.284
I try and control everything.
00:12:47.284 --> 00:12:49.475
I have spreadsheets and to-do lists.
00:12:49.475 --> 00:12:50.195
It's insane.
00:12:50.434 --> 00:12:54.544
The one part of my life I do not control myself in is my writing.
00:12:54.575 --> 00:12:55.865
That's my playground.
00:12:55.865 --> 00:12:57.664
And I'm like, I will not control it.
00:12:58.029 --> 00:13:06.789
I will let the writing control me and I, I give myself permission to just, you know, let those little nuggets reveal themselves to me.
00:13:06.789 --> 00:13:09.940
And so far it's not a process that works for everybody.
00:13:09.940 --> 00:13:19.240
I've spoken to many, many authors and many of them get chest pain when I, when I tell them that this is my process and I'll get chest pain when they tell me about their process.
00:13:19.495 --> 00:13:22.029
But this is why it's so important to find what works for you.
00:13:23.215 --> 00:13:24.235
I, I think that's so cool.
00:13:24.284 --> 00:13:25.575
And so important for people to hear.
00:13:25.815 --> 00:13:38.914
I, I'm, I'm curious and, and not giving anything away here, but there, there is a, there is a thematic thread here of grief and guilt and, and these kind of bigger issues, which, which I think is so important, really grounds the work.
00:13:38.914 --> 00:13:42.575
It's not, you know, it's not just a murder mystery.
00:13:42.575 --> 00:13:44.835
It also has these big thematic threads.
00:13:44.835 --> 00:13:47.024
So how intentional was that from the beginning?
00:13:47.024 --> 00:13:50.264
Did you set out to tell this story or is this the story that kind of revealed itself?
00:13:50.789 --> 00:13:51.659
Through the character.
00:13:52.320 --> 00:13:52.470
Yeah.
00:13:52.470 --> 00:13:55.529
There's certain things about human nature that always fascinate me.
00:13:55.529 --> 00:13:58.289
I think every book I write, whether it was my.
00:13:58.764 --> 00:14:07.315
Literary historical fiction, or whether it was my witches or moonshine manner or this, there are certain things that are always gonna fascinate me as a writer.
00:14:07.315 --> 00:14:09.205
One of them is grief.
00:14:09.544 --> 00:14:10.985
Because it's such a human thing.
00:14:10.985 --> 00:14:14.014
We all go through it and we all deal with it so very differently.
00:14:14.384 --> 00:14:16.845
Other things are overcoming adversity.
00:14:17.264 --> 00:14:23.924
Another thing is identity, like how you find your identity, how you find your people, found family.
00:14:24.495 --> 00:14:27.345
So I feel like those are things I'm always gonna be writing about.
00:14:28.169 --> 00:14:31.620
But I never stop to think too much about themes.
00:14:31.620 --> 00:14:39.149
When I'm, when I sit down to write, I'll just be like, it would be nice to explore, you know, grief and identity.
00:14:39.429 --> 00:14:43.750
And how, again, it always comes back to character, like what drives her?
00:14:43.779 --> 00:14:46.059
What is it about the grief that drives her?
00:14:46.360 --> 00:14:49.990
To accept this weird invitation and go to an island where she doesn't know anybody.
00:14:49.990 --> 00:14:53.049
What is it about that that motivates her?
00:14:53.340 --> 00:14:55.169
And what makes that plausible?
00:14:55.259 --> 00:15:02.460
And I find that if we really get to know our characters and give them all that backstory and flesh them out, they are.
00:15:03.419 --> 00:15:05.940
You know, they're gonna lead us to those themes anyway.
00:15:05.940 --> 00:15:08.039
And again, I feel like they're so subconscious.
00:15:08.039 --> 00:15:16.320
I feel every writer's got certain things that fascinates them about the human condition, and we are just gonna keep exploring certain things over and over.
00:15:16.965 --> 00:15:17.384
Yeah.
00:15:17.384 --> 00:15:18.105
I, I love that.
00:15:18.120 --> 00:15:29.284
I, I think too it goes to kind of our role, I think as writers is to, to not just tell a great story, but also to kind of investigate the, the human condition for readers, but also for ourselves.
00:15:29.284 --> 00:15:33.225
I feel like that's one of the things we don't talk enough about, especially when we're talking about genre.
00:15:33.225 --> 00:15:36.524
I think a lot of people get stuck on the, like, genre conventions.
00:15:36.715 --> 00:15:39.144
And I talk about this a lot, obviously with thrillers.
00:15:39.195 --> 00:15:40.845
But Myster Mystery is kind of in there as well.
00:15:40.845 --> 00:15:43.065
Like sometimes I think as a.
00:15:43.634 --> 00:15:57.105
As a community podcast, like group of people, especially when we're talking about beta readers, like we're thinking about like pacing and we're thinking about like plot twists and like I think sometimes we have to go back to like what is the purpose of books and literature?
00:15:57.105 --> 00:16:02.654
And I think in some ways, I think a lot of us were drawn to write stories because it helps us better understand the world.
00:16:02.684 --> 00:16:05.774
And I think for readers it helps them better understand the world as well.
00:16:05.774 --> 00:16:07.004
And so I think that's so important.
00:16:07.284 --> 00:16:08.304
And I think it's something.
00:16:08.649 --> 00:16:10.330
That writers need to be thinking about.
00:16:10.379 --> 00:16:14.580
And so I, I love that you kind of have, I like that you have a few that you hit on.
00:16:14.580 --> 00:16:15.389
I think that's really fun.
00:16:15.419 --> 00:16:20.100
Sometimes I feel like I need to have more, but I'm like, maybe I just need to go deeper into the ones I'm, I'm working on.
00:16:20.100 --> 00:16:21.029
I think that's really cool.
00:16:21.269 --> 00:16:27.389
And do you, are you like, is this, do you going through another pass, are you editing more thoroughly for theme?
00:16:27.389 --> 00:16:32.370
Like, do you, do you have to worry about am I going too heavy or am I, am I going too light here?
00:16:32.370 --> 00:16:34.529
Is am I being clear about my themes?
00:16:34.529 --> 00:16:36.179
Like how are you navigating that balance?
00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:38.669
Yeah, I mean, every book's different.
00:16:38.669 --> 00:16:45.840
And I say every book teaches you how to write it because, you know, I've now written 6, 7, 8 books.
00:16:45.960 --> 00:16:47.039
I've published four.
00:16:47.340 --> 00:16:49.710
But every book is so entirely different.
00:16:49.740 --> 00:16:54.240
And some books, you know, you'll sit down and you'll be like, okay, this is what I wanna explore with this book.
00:16:54.240 --> 00:16:59.720
This is, you know like with the witches of Moonshine, MENA, I knew very clearly I wanted to look at misogyny.
00:17:00.044 --> 00:17:10.664
I want you to look at identity and I wanna look at loss of memory and who are we when we forget ourselves and can those we love remember us back into existence?
00:17:10.934 --> 00:17:13.184
So for that book, I was very clear on my themes.
00:17:13.434 --> 00:17:15.865
This book, the Most Puzzling Murder.
00:17:16.119 --> 00:17:17.589
I was just following the characters.
00:17:17.589 --> 00:17:23.349
I was focusing more on plots and themes kind of revealed themselves to me in the new book I'm working on.
00:17:23.529 --> 00:17:37.095
I found that I was so obsessed with themes that I was becoming way too heavy handed in terms of the writing of it, and I was writing in the third person, which allowed my author's voice as narrator.
00:17:37.664 --> 00:17:56.365
To constantly be interjecting with my take on things and I had to completely unpack that, put in a much younger narrator, and do it in the first person so that I could get the hell outta my own way and let my character speak for herself as opposed to constantly like hitting readers over the head with the theme.
00:17:57.285 --> 00:17:57.585
Yeah.
00:17:57.615 --> 00:17:58.724
Oh, that's so interesting.
00:17:58.724 --> 00:18:06.795
I love, I love the idea of, of shifting perspective and point of view and character as a way to, to get your own, get outta your own way.
00:18:06.914 --> 00:18:11.355
And I don't know how you knew this, but I don't know how you knew my next question was gonna be about what you're working on next.
00:18:11.355 --> 00:18:14.035
So how much can you tell us about what, what you're working on?
00:18:14.684 --> 00:18:31.585
Yeah, so I'm going from a book that had, what, 12 or 13 POVs, if you, if you include all the Choose Your Own Adventure chapters to, for the very first time in my life, writing a book from one point of view, one main point of view, character I'm going back to my roots.
00:18:31.585 --> 00:18:34.404
It's once again sort of book club fiction.
00:18:35.019 --> 00:18:42.970
This is dystopian fiction and it's what happens in a dystopian world when the next civil war is between men and women.
00:18:43.450 --> 00:18:45.579
So that is, yeah.
00:18:45.579 --> 00:18:47.769
So it's, it's a big themes.
00:18:47.769 --> 00:18:53.460
Grappling with a lot lots of research, but I'm sort of 15,000 words into it.
00:18:53.509 --> 00:18:54.890
And you know, we.
00:18:55.700 --> 00:18:57.230
We are going to see where we go with it.
00:18:57.740 --> 00:18:58.609
That's amazing.
00:18:58.660 --> 00:18:59.740
That, that sounds really interesting.
00:18:59.740 --> 00:19:06.190
I can't wait to have you back on the podcast so we can talk about it because it's always so much fun to to chat with you about, about what you're working on.
00:19:06.190 --> 00:19:15.430
So yeah, so I, I do wanna wrap up here, but before we do I do want to, to say how much I appreciate, and I know I, I speak for the rest of the writing community who've.
00:19:15.775 --> 00:19:16.825
Listen to your podcast.
00:19:16.855 --> 00:19:17.875
You know, the shit no one tells you about.
00:19:17.875 --> 00:19:20.785
Writing is such a, a wonderful resource.
00:19:20.785 --> 00:19:23.484
Whenever I talk to writers, I'm always like, well, what resources do you use?
00:19:23.484 --> 00:19:31.224
Almost everyone either mentions the shit, no one tells you about writing, or if they don't, I'm like, well, you should be listening to the shit no one tells you about writing.
00:19:31.224 --> 00:19:36.924
So I first wanna just say on behalf of, of the writers who are working right now, thank you so much for the work you do there.
00:19:37.539 --> 00:19:38.319
Thank you, David.
00:19:38.319 --> 00:19:39.460
That's so lovely of you to say.
00:19:39.460 --> 00:19:40.900
I really, really appreciate that.
00:19:40.960 --> 00:19:43.059
I have two excellent co-hosts.
00:19:43.059 --> 00:19:44.680
They're both literary agents.
00:19:44.940 --> 00:19:49.920
And yeah, we just, we are just really trying to get our listeners to get published.
00:19:49.920 --> 00:19:50.970
That is our biggest goal.
00:19:51.240 --> 00:19:51.420
Yeah.
00:19:51.420 --> 00:19:51.960
Super cool.
00:19:52.089 --> 00:19:57.099
So my last question for you is just where if people are listening to this and they wanna find out more about you, where can they find you?
00:19:57.099 --> 00:19:57.940
Where can they look you up?
00:19:58.329 --> 00:20:01.000
Yeah, so the podcast has an amazing substack.
00:20:01.029 --> 00:20:04.420
So if you look on Substack for the shit, no one tells you about writing.
00:20:04.730 --> 00:20:09.170
We send, we have two newsletters a week, one's paid for, one is free.
00:20:09.450 --> 00:20:15.750
You can find me on Instagram, Bianca Marie, author, and you can find the shit no one tells you about writing on Instagram as well.
00:20:15.750 --> 00:20:16.920
We most active there.
00:20:18.075 --> 00:20:18.434
Lovely.
00:20:18.434 --> 00:20:21.555
So I will link to that stuff in, in the description.
00:20:21.585 --> 00:20:24.525
Quick, quick access to people who are, are listening to this.
00:20:24.684 --> 00:20:26.575
Bianca, as always, thank you so much.
00:20:26.575 --> 00:20:27.500
I really appreciate you taking the time.
00:20:28.255 --> 00:20:29.365
I appreciate you, David.
00:20:29.365 --> 00:20:29.875
Thank you.
