Burnham’s Devolution Revolution Funding Revealed

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Good evening and welcome to nov Our Live coming up tonight.
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Andy Burnham and Louise Hay have unveiled their plans for
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funding devolution, but do they stack up a number of
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Burnham's new ministers have had their historic statements on the
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guards of genocide highlighted, Spain's army tries to stop Moroccan
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migrants entering its African enclave, and Diana Abbott has finally
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been readmitted into the Labor Party. I'm Steven Bethan and
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tonight I'm joined by Paul Holden. Paul, how are you doing?
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I'm great, Thanks for having me back.
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Like the show, A lot of people have been commenting
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on it. It's tarot card, so if you get bored
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of the show, you can read your future. If you'd
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to the show on Spotify and Apple podcasts, and remember
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haven't already, and don't forget to let us know what
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you think in the comments below. We did this all
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for you and we want to know what you think.
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Prime Minister Andy Burnham has begun to unveil his plans
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to devolve both political and economic power from London to
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the regions, and the way he plans to do it seems,
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on the face of it, uncomplicated. According to plans published
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last night, the Burnham government will allow regional mayors in
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England to retain a share of taxes raised in their areas.
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In a statement, Burnham said this, I said we'd take
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power out of Westminster and carry it into every postcode
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in the country. Today we made good on that promise.
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Under our plans, more of the taxes raised and a
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community will stay in that community. Soon, every local leader
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will have the power and resources to improve public transport,
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build homes and create jobs. I know what it's like
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to be ignored by politicians in Westminster. I'm not going
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to make that same mistake now, I'm PM. The whole
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of government will now pull together behind the people and
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places that desperately need our support. This is how we'll
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bring back hope and bring power.
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Home to you.
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Now, as with many of these announcements, there isn't much
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by way of detail yet, with the government press release
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saying this from next spring, mayors would begin retaining a
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greater share of locally generated revenues, starting with business rates.
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Further details on this and on income tax retention will
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be set out in a roadmap the budget, and will
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be underpinned by the government's firm commitment to fiscal discipline.
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Over time, local areas will move away from dependence on
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Whitehall grants and towards funding that rewards local growth. Regional
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mayors will start being able to keep a share of
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local business rates by twenty twenty seven, according to the plans,
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and a share of income tax by twenty twenty eight.
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Now isn't going to be any new money.
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Though, but it is going to replace grants distributed by
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the Treasury, and we don't yet know the size of
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the share that mayors will be allowed to keep. That's
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something that Chancellor John Healey is set to announce. The budget,
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which he announced today will be on the twenty eighth
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of October, in the middle of half term. Still some
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mayors are already celebrating. South Yorkshire Mayor Oliver Coppard told
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The Guardian this it's really important because it gets us
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out of the death grip of the Treasury and gives
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us that long term certainty around income According to the Guardian,
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a reliable projected income stream will have an additional benefit
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region for regional governments, with the Papers saying this England's
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directly elected mayors, who control areas spanning three quarters of
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the population, would be able to use the revenue generated
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from business rates and income tax as they wish, including
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tax breaks for important industries or rebates to residents. However,
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experts said one of the most significant consequences was that
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it would allow combined authorities to take out thirty year
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loans against their projected income to fund major projects that
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previously needed treasury approval. Local leaders will also be given
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more freedom to operate independently of central government, with Transport
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Secretary Hidi Alexander saying the threshold at which local leaders
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need to seek treasury approval for projects or rise from
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two hundred million pounds to five hundred million pounds. On
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the Morning News Rounds, First Secretary of State Louise Haig
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set out a little more detail on how it will work.
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Income tax and business rates will still be set by
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the UK government centrally, but different areas will be able
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to retain a share of those and that will give
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them an incentive to grow their economy so that they
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can then keep a share of the proceeds of that
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growth and reinvest it, so it becomes a virtual circle
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of investment. You see this happen really successfully in countries
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like France. I was in Leon not very long ago,
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where they retain a proportion of their tax intake and
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then they can invest it and they have world class
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integrated transport systems and cities that are far smaller than
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ones here where we don't have anywhere like the kind
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of investment that they enjoy.
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So what about areas.
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I'm thinking we've got a mayor of London, the wealthiest
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city in the country, that would get a proportion that
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the same rules applies. It would get the proportion of
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income tax. Yet if you go to a region elsewhere
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in the country which won't have that same income tax,
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it won't be getting as much money.
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Is that fair? Yeah?
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Correct, So areas will retain different proportions of their income
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tax and business rates. That's exactly how it works at
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the moment, with some business rates retention, and that's offset
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by central government funding, so it will be it will
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be offset by proportional formula that's set centrally to make
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sure that funding is still is still fair and equal
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across the country, but it will crucially give them that
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incentive to really grow their economy, create extra jobs, invest
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in their businesses, and ensure a thriving local economy that
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they can then recirculate the revenue from into investment in
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their area.
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So Heyer's right that what's being proposed is actually fairly
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standard in other G seven countries.
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The BBC rather reports this.
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The share of national taxes collected at a local level
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in the UK is five point eight percent, the lowest
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in the G seven. According to the OECD, That share
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is far below that of other countries with large economies,
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such as France at twenty point four percent, Japan at
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thirty six percent, and the US at forty five point
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seven percent. Paul, you may surprise, maybe you're going to
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supplies me, but I can't find a lot to disagree
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with in this. I mean, obviously there's very little detail.
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We don't know what proportion of these taxes local governments,
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local mayors will be able to take. There's also this
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calculation that will determine that perhaps richer cities get less
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of a share than poorer than poorer areas. But you know,
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is this the right direction of travel? I mean, I'm
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presuming going to say yes.
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Now I feel like I have to do Devil's Advocate
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and say no and make up so nonsense argument as
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to why it's a bad idea. But I mean, I
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think generally speaking, most people accept this idea, that that
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localism is.
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It's a good way of governing.
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Generally speaking, the decisions that are sort of regionally driven,
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where people have a direct implement over you know, their
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own unique economic circumstances, generally produces better democratic outcomes. I
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think that's pretty widely accepted, not least in you know.
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And it has to be said that this country is
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deeply and profoundly centralized. It really is a very you know,
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much more so than other countries. You know, London and
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the Treasury and Westminster exercises vast control over the day
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to day life of huge numbers of people. And there
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is this like real sense that there is a deficit
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between what people around the country think is good for
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them and what Treasury does. And there's really the sense
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of a local politics being stifled. And I think it
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has interesting it has interesting implications.
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You know.
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So, first of all the one the one caveat I
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would say, the one negative thing I would say is
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that just because governments as local doesn't necessarily it doesn't
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necessarily always mean it's going to be quality governance, right,
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because you can have bad local government and.
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You can have corruption and all kinds of things go
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on at that level. Yeah, And.
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You know, one of the issues that that I think
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will have to be looked at when it comes to
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local government is the extent to which you've had Historically,
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You've had regions and entities which have effectively become day
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factor one party states which are very problematic in terms
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of corruption. Right, so used to that and it doesn't
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happen as much anymore. Well, certainly of the last local
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elections have got more it got a bit more untidy
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because of the Green surged. But for a long period
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of time you had, you know, large parts of this
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country where local government is efectively run by a single
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you know, a single party. So the Labor Party, for example,
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had fifteen out of sixty councilors in new them would
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have seventy out of seventy two councilors in Newcastle, and
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that can breed a problematic situation where you know, the
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party itself, which is can be dysfunctional, produces a dysfunctional
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selection of counselors who then don't represent people, and then
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it becomes like a very problematic space for corruption.
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That's true of sort of every level of government.
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Right, So that's the one caveat I have is like,
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you know, localism I think is a really a good idea,
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but I also think there needs to be a discussion
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about how we improve the quality of local government and
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how we you know, it might be that that that
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the way in which our local elections are structured needs
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to be rethought so you don't have a situation where
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one party dominates, because it really is problematic. I think
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the exciting prospects are things like you you compare study
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can't Sazarammdani, right, Like you can actually have under this
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smart it is believable and incredible and imaginable that you
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can have a form of like actually effective municipal socialism.
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Right.
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It does actually give the scope for you to do
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the pressor model and plenty of different places. It does
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actually give you the scope for mayors like zom i'm
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daney to emerge as national political players. The question would
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anybody takes up that opportunity and runs with it? But
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it could be like really interesting in terms of shaping
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our sort of national political conversation.
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And also majorties will become a much hotter political race.
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Right everybody is going to want to be the mayor
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of somewhere because you have you'll have a bit of
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what Burnham had in Manchester, but like everywhere right where
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you've got a sort of great little power, you've got
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an independent budget and so on and so forth.
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It can be very attractive. One of the things I
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thought was really.
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Interesting is this idea of like enabling borrowing, because obviously
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that could be quite large amounts of borrowing based you know,
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over thirty years for a region, based on its tax
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tax revenue, So an easy calculation more or less to
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make is a kind of a way of getting borrowing
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in for infrastructure, but not via central governments books perhaps.
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Yeah, and that again, that could genuine that that's the
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one thing you read. I was like, that's actually really interesting.
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That's like really transformative. You can actually have large scale
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local borrowing. Again, I'm going to sound like a bit
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of a warning.
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Saying like birming and Birmingham.
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Actually my thinking, I've been reading a lot. I've been
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reading and I'm going to totally forget its name, but
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I've been reading a very interesting book about Manchester recently,
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which is about, you know, looking at the history of
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Manchester over the last hundred years and takes up to
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the current cycle. And it looks at basically the development
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of Manchester over the last twenty years under Andy Burnham,
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which he sort of runs on as like I've brought
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prosperity to the city, and of course the picture is
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a lot more complicated, where effectively what you've had, according
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you know to a more cynical and more sort of
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a left bring analysis, is that well you've actually had
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a lot of state money, you know, effectively loans being granted.
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Development is granted by the state and the local government
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to private entities which have built these massive tower blocks
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and effectively turns it into a rentier city.
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Pretty much.
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One private entity is right here, which is the main
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ones that they've got two hundred million dollars. It's undred
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million pounds out of the four hundred million that's been
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being learned out. So you know, these are all good things.
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It's good to have localism. I do worry that, like
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so much of Britain's you know, this is all happening
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in the context of a broader macroeconomic situation where the
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returns for capital are always better when it comes to
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building rentier house, and it does when it comes to
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actually building. You know, if it's going to be investment driven,
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that's going to be and ins investment driving around housing,
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that's going to potentially have perverse outcomes. If it's instead
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used to be like we're arguable one hundred thousand actually
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counsel home properties, that's transformative. If it's combined with other
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thing I think it's interesting, which I think is maybe
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the need to be seen together is the plans for
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the National Care Service because the key, the key drain
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on local budgets is as care. So if you take
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if you have a national care service and then you
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have local fundraising, suddenly you're going to have these these
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mayoralties and these these these local councils which actually for
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the first time probably in forty years, will have the
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budget to spend and they could spend that money either
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catalyzing Redia style investment, or they could be building council housing,
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or they can be building integrated infrastructure or positive opportunities,
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but which you basically need like local political activism to take.
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And of course, like local political activism is easier at
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the local level, right, You're much more likely to influence
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your your mayor or your local council than you are
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to the national government.
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That's an interesting I'm not so sure how that's true.
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That actually is right? It mus it must be. I
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feel like it. I suppose.
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I mean, you'd think it would be right, but then
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I but then I think of my experience and like
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the dirtiest, the ugliest part of the labor party is
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like a counselor level. Like that's where it's like tooth
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and nail nastiness and also the pettiest stuff, right, because
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that's like the that is the hardcore. These are people
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who have given their lives. They want to be politicians.
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They can make some money off it, they can make
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money of being counselors, but they can also then you know,
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benefit potentially from maybe I'll be able to become you know,
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the owner of a parking lot, or you know, I'm
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going to be controlling zoning that sort of stuff. That
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there is scope for personal enrichment there and you'd think
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that like localized democracy would be better. But if it's
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localized democracy being enacted through a one party stay through
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a dysfunctional party.
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Actually yeah, sure, and it's actually quite hard.
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And the other thing that's going to have to you know,
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one of the issues around local democracy that we have
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is like the death of local media, which is really profound.
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You know, you have a couple of cities where it's
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where it's surviving and it's thriving, and a lot of
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places it's not. And that's you know, that's one of
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the things that generally militates against like a degree of accountability.
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So I'd be interested to see whether, now there's money
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returning to these places, whether that will then fund organically
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an emergence of an alternative or new local media, because
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it used to be you'd have like local newspapers to
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reach little eco you know, great investigative papers like actual
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you know, you know, really good. Now they sadly they've
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been like really hollowed out.
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Yeah, you know, pretty much only owned by one BBC
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local journalism completely wrecked.
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Yeah, so you know, all potentially positive, but these are
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the things that we have to like deal with is
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that you know you will then have to be will.
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Then there has to be a commensurate commitment to being like, well,
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you can't. You actually need to improve the quality and
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the ability of people to engage in the local democracy
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for localism to work.
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Great. Okay, let's move on with this story now.
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Now, this plan for a bit of economic devolution is
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intended to free regional mayors to stimulate their own economies
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by investing in things like infrastructure and the infrastructure that
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best serves their community. But some think it doesn't go
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far enough. Mayor of Tees Valley and Tory Pierre ben
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Houchin said this, I'd rather ministers just cut out the
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middleman and lower taxes, but if they're handing me a
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share of the income tax raised on Teesside, true devolution
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means a decision where to spend it is for locally
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elected leaders. I want to give every penny back to
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the workers who earned it through a rebate scheme. If
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people don't like that, they can vote for someone else.
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That's what real accountability looks like. But today Westminster decided
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it knew better as it always does. Now, if reporting
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from private eye is to believe done, you know, I
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don't know whether it is. Houchin may in fact be
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a pretty good counterargument to devolution. This relates to the
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Teesworks freeport in Teeside, the development of which has been
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dogged by allegations of lack of transparency, lack of transparency
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and poor value for public money. This is from Richard Brooks,
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writing in Private Eye in twenty twenty five. It was
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to be the UK's largest regeneration scheme in decades, a
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model for regional devolution, and the flagship post Brexit free
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But the redevelopment of the former steel works on the
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south bank of the River Tees became little more than
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an unlawful, taxpayer funded scheme to promote the political career
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of a Tory golden boy and vastly enrich a couple
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of local businessmen and their families, all hidden in a
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web of deception.
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Don't hold your punch, as Richard.
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In twenty twenty four, an independent investigation into the Teesport
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development found that deals had been done in secret, public
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funders had been misled, the private companies involved had made
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zero investments into that scheme, and there was no evidence
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that it represented value for money for the public. And
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now it's important to point out that there were no
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findings of criminality or corruption with dishonesty. Louise Hay had
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this response to Hutchin's rebate proposal.
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At the moment, that's not how it works. They have
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lines of funding and they go in. That's how it's
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invested into public services. We've seen what the mayors have
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said about rebates. There's not a system that would currently
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allow that, and they certainly wouldn't be able to set
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tax rates locally or regionally, but will consider what proposals
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are put forward. The real purpose of this, though, is
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to allow areas to benefit when they create growth, when
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they create new jobs, and to keep investing in their
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local areas in public services, in transport, and to keep
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that virtuous circle of investment.
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I suppose the point is that if you're giving power
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to localities, and that's very much what you say want
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to do, then you would have to give them the
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power to do things that you might not necessarily approve
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of you as a labor party, are you willing to
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say yes if Ben Houtcher wants to do something differently,
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if the mayor of Cambridgeshire and Huntingdon, who we talked
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to earlier on Cambridgire and Peterborough. If he wants to
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do things that he wants to do, then we are
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willing to allow those people to have the freedom to
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do things and to see whether they were well.
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That's exactly right, and we can't sit back and allow
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this country to remain the most centralized in the G seven,
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which is held back our growth and our productivity and
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held back investment levels because we worry that certain parts
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of the country might elect different political parties to our own.
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I mean calling naive. I feel like it probably won't
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work like that right in the end. Excuse me, but
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I think there is something to be said about, you know,
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perhaps as a way in which when you when you
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inject money into these regional areas, where you allow them
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to keep some of the money that they're generating in
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order to spend locally, it does give bad leaders in
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those areas enough rope playing themselves with it and be
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elected out as so long as there is an opposition
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to to.
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But that's actually it's interesting because because when I first
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read the story, I thought that actually we hey were saying,
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we know we're not going to allow that to happen.
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It's actually basically seemed to be she used to be suggested, well,
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that's what you want to do, you know, on your
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head be it. You know, your local voters will hold
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your accountable, and I think they would hold them all.
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She said, there is there's no mechanism to do it.
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But then she does also say she does basically say,
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you know, you know, we will bring forwards proposers and
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will scuss. So it's not a hard not I mean,
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I think it would be a little bit mad to
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basically be like, here as twenty percent of your you know,
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here's a master lack of money, just give it back
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as tax rebates to a really wealthy people instead of
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investing in infrastructure. I suspect they'll probably be slightly more
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controlled than that. But the point stance and the point
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that I was making earlier and again, I think it's
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useful to bring up Pouchin and the tea side development.
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And I really would encourage people to go and read
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that Private Air report, which is actually on the privateized website.
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Still it's one of the few things you can still
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read and you know that that is a scheme where
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just I mean really genuinely vast amounts of public money
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have gone into it, and they've been a handful of
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people who've put in very little of their own money
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and have made fortunes a hundred, like over one hundred million.
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I think it's one hundred and thirty five million pounds
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that this group of business people and their families made.
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And this is it speaks to you know, localism is good,
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but local neoliberalism is going to be bad, just like
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you know, you can have just you know, just because
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it's local doesn't necessarily means it's going to have good outcomes, right, Like.
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I feel.
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There became a bit of a thing in the Labor
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Party and the soft left, this idea, you know, people
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who didn't want to make sort of overly tendentious arguments
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about the nature of the political economy, about the status quo,
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would start talking about localism as of was this like
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radical get out of jail free call. If you give
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people local decisions and not do socialism on their own,
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we don't have to defend it. That's not necessarily true.
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But what it does show is that like it's it
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doesn't you know, it's going to be the content of
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that local government that matters. If you have poor quality,
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if you have a neoliberal local government, it's going to
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be a neoliberal outcome which is going to be problematic.
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Which is actually, ironically the argument that underpins a lot
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of the critique of Manchester at this point, which is
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that you know, Manchester on the one had, it's had
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a tremendous amount of economic growth. You know, there's completely
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different city centers to what looked like twenty thirty years ago,
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but it's all privately owned, it's all rental based. It's
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created a huge amount of displacement. It's increased rents pretty
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much across the heart of greater Manchester. And we even
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sordering the Gorton, so not the Gorton, but the Makeidfield
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by election. There was a lot of sympathy with people
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standing and be like, well, you know the stuff was
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having in Manchester, but none of it's actually made our
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life worse because what it all it's done is basically
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push problems from the center towards the periphery, and it's
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meant everything more expensive. So again it's like great localism
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is fantastic. Great, I give people more power if the
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people are there are Tory bastards who want to give
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it to their mates.
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This is going to be a bad thing. Then you
447
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have to suspect that.
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You know, one of the one advantage of hypercentralization is
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if you centralize everything, that then like ordered functions become
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centralized and then you can have like a very tightly
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controlled system. So you'd have to imagine that if you're
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going to have increased expenditures, you are going to have
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to make sure that in Darlington they have like more
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people working in the order offers. Otherwise then really will
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be a disaster if they don't.
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Do that well.
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I think Burnham was as part of this announcement, was
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the kind of whistling down of the civil service in
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the in the center to other parts of the country. Yes,
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I would say on the on a neoliberalism in Manchester.
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One of my favorite journalists on this who I've been
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falling for ages is someone called Zoe Bread on Instagram
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and TikTok. Yeah, starting off with wrong parking tickets and
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moving on to skyscrapers and now onto warehousing, ruining people's
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property prices and just sort of dumped there. So Zoe,
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if you're watching, get in touch, let's stick with Oh,
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before I go on, I want to ask you something else.
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I mean, look, just let's go to the politics of this.
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You know, there's no details here, but you know, we've
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basically had a week two weeks now in which Burnham
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has on a day to day basis made some kind
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of announcement which is pretty pleasing to a lot of people.
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The detail is yet to come, but you know, bus fairs,
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care service, you know, more money for the more money
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for regional governments. Is He's doing a pretty good job
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politically right at this at this point.
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Yeah, I mean, I suppose the metric is is what
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is a good job. If the if the metric for
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successes he's been using popular things and has been popular
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and has increasing the layer of party's poll ratings and
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his poor ratings, then yes he's succeeding. I don't you know,
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I don't pass juge on whether this stuff is going
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to be good from like a left wing perspective. That's
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that's a whole other argument. You know, he is he is.
485
00:23:35.559 --> 00:23:37.960
I think he's learned two lessons. I think there's been
486
00:23:37.960 --> 00:23:39.960
two politicians who've basically shown you how to do it
487
00:23:39.960 --> 00:23:42.279
and how not to do it, and the politicians showed
488
00:23:42.279 --> 00:23:43.839
you not how to do it, how not to do
489
00:23:43.880 --> 00:23:48.240
a starmo and McSweeney, who liked the most misery guts tour,
490
00:23:48.680 --> 00:23:52.119
which most people sort of deeper their bones understood was
491
00:23:52.720 --> 00:23:56.519
deeply misleading. And you know, there was this real sense
492
00:23:56.599 --> 00:23:58.640
that the layer parties so that we could change things.
493
00:23:58.640 --> 00:24:00.559
And then basically we had you know, the last twenty
494
00:24:00.680 --> 00:24:03.759
thirty forty years of government has been sorry, the computer says,
495
00:24:03.759 --> 00:24:06.160
now we can't actually make your life better, and standard
496
00:24:06.200 --> 00:24:09.039
at that again. And the one person who you know,
497
00:24:09.559 --> 00:24:13.519
I think is undoubtedly the most talented politician of our
498
00:24:13.559 --> 00:24:16.599
generation is or Mum Duney like undoubtedly. And the thing
499
00:24:16.599 --> 00:24:19.079
that always trikes me about rum Doney is his ability
500
00:24:19.119 --> 00:24:22.759
to is that it feels like everything is strategically oriented,
501
00:24:22.759 --> 00:24:24.319
that he spent years and years and years with his
502
00:24:24.359 --> 00:24:27.000
colleagues thinking about a strategy for how to govern. And
503
00:24:27.039 --> 00:24:28.359
one of the things I've come up is that you
504
00:24:28.400 --> 00:24:31.960
have to immediately do big things on a day to
505
00:24:32.039 --> 00:24:34.680
day basis and be communicating on a daily basis a
506
00:24:34.680 --> 00:24:39.799
good news story of some kind. The problem is you
507
00:24:39.920 --> 00:24:42.640
actually have to be doing stuff that is good news.
508
00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:44.519
Making good news actually have to be making good news.
509
00:24:44.599 --> 00:24:46.599
So the thing that why zerum Doney works is he's
510
00:24:46.640 --> 00:24:50.599
both a very expective communicator, but he's done great things right,
511
00:24:50.599 --> 00:24:52.400
Like he's done the peedter ted attacks and he's done
512
00:24:52.559 --> 00:24:55.200
you know, bringing you free childcare. You can't, you know,
513
00:24:55.359 --> 00:24:57.640
the centrist learning of this is going to be you
514
00:24:57.640 --> 00:24:59.279
should just be talking to social media every day.
515
00:24:59.319 --> 00:25:00.079
So if you're talking to so sus.
516
00:25:00.160 --> 00:25:01.839
Media every day about how you're not going to be
517
00:25:01.839 --> 00:25:04.799
closing the carried interest loophole, you're screwed.
518
00:25:05.119 --> 00:25:06.759
You actually have to be doing things that people like.
519
00:25:07.000 --> 00:25:10.119
It also shows I think I think Burnham is just
520
00:25:10.200 --> 00:25:13.759
proving this ungovernability thesis, like there was a sense of
521
00:25:13.799 --> 00:25:16.519
like it's all falling apart, we're all fracturing. No, we
522
00:25:16.680 --> 00:25:17.839
just had really crap on it.
523
00:25:19.599 --> 00:25:21.519
Yeah, because you say you say this is like you know,
524
00:25:21.759 --> 00:25:23.359
you say this though this is easy and obvious, but
525
00:25:23.880 --> 00:25:26.759
nobody has done it, like I can't remember. I mean
526
00:25:26.799 --> 00:25:31.559
Corbyn maybe in that twenty nineteen manifesto, but obviously the
527
00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:36.079
country rejected it. But you know, I have not seen
528
00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:40.119
this kind of sense of like people need things, let's
529
00:25:40.119 --> 00:25:40.799
give them to them.
530
00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:44.519
And I wonder whether I was thinking about this, like,
531
00:25:44.720 --> 00:25:49.119
what is the difference between like, why is Burnham you know,
532
00:25:49.160 --> 00:25:52.559
for the first time I think ever in since an election,
533
00:25:52.799 --> 00:25:54.319
since a parameter has come and I was looking at
534
00:25:54.319 --> 00:25:57.119
the approval ratings. You know, Burnham's at plus nineteen at
535
00:25:57.160 --> 00:26:00.440
the moment, yeah, which in this you know, was never
536
00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:03.920
a plus nineteen, never once. And then Richie's seen it before.
537
00:26:03.920 --> 00:26:06.799
Then you know, we've basically had a good decade where
538
00:26:06.839 --> 00:26:10.279
our politicians were pretty much hated, you know, not for
539
00:26:11.200 --> 00:26:14.799
bad reason. And I do wonder whether he's obviously had
540
00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:17.079
some he had an inbuilt advantage, which is basically he
541
00:26:17.119 --> 00:26:19.799
hasn't been an opposition, and I do think that makes
542
00:26:19.799 --> 00:26:22.279
a difference. I do think there is something about being
543
00:26:22.279 --> 00:26:25.640
in an opposition for a multiple years that like crushes
544
00:26:25.720 --> 00:26:29.799
the spirit of most people. And they also they also restrained.
545
00:26:29.960 --> 00:26:32.359
I feel like the act of being an opposition is
546
00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:34.559
the act of various elements of the British state coming
547
00:26:34.599 --> 00:26:36.920
to you telling you better shut up, you better stay
548
00:26:36.920 --> 00:26:39.759
in line. You can't actually do that. You go to
549
00:26:39.839 --> 00:26:42.839
thirteen different business meetings with like you know, salmon and
550
00:26:42.920 --> 00:26:47.200
smoked eggs offensive and you know, various hedge fund people
551
00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:49.440
telling you if you increase my tax pil one point
552
00:26:49.480 --> 00:26:51.599
two percent. I'm moving my family to France and I'm
553
00:26:51.599 --> 00:26:53.400
going to tell all the other He hasn't gone through
554
00:26:53.400 --> 00:26:57.559
that process. He hasn't been disciplined. But also he has
555
00:26:57.599 --> 00:27:01.599
like a total fresh light to set a message just
556
00:27:01.640 --> 00:27:04.319
as all very advantageous, bad for democracy.
557
00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:06.039
That the way he came to power, I think.
558
00:27:06.359 --> 00:27:09.200
But those are the inbuilt advantages he has and he's
559
00:27:09.200 --> 00:27:11.200
taken to his credit, he's taken them a none of them.
560
00:27:11.640 --> 00:27:13.799
And another advantage he has of not being having been
561
00:27:13.839 --> 00:27:15.240
in Parliament for a long time is he has no
562
00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:17.680
record that people can present to him as you know,
563
00:27:17.799 --> 00:27:20.079
hypocrisy or going back on the because he doesn't said
564
00:27:20.079 --> 00:27:22.640
anything really, so it is helpful.
565
00:27:22.920 --> 00:27:25.759
Basically what we need is politicians, all politicians who need
566
00:27:25.799 --> 00:27:28.279
to be like in the country, both national and local,
567
00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:30.960
should have their brains wiped and be a tabula rasa
568
00:27:31.039 --> 00:27:32.200
and then that's how they should have But.
569
00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:35.400
We should just pick randoms for Prime Minister my sautician. Yeah,
570
00:27:36.359 --> 00:27:41.680
it worked so well in a recent party. Let's stick
571
00:27:41.720 --> 00:27:44.200
with the Burnham government for a moment. Earlier this month,
572
00:27:44.240 --> 00:27:47.559
Andy Burnham said this about Kirstarmer's handling of Israel's assault
573
00:27:47.640 --> 00:27:48.200
on Gaza.
574
00:27:49.359 --> 00:27:51.759
I know many people feel that at the start of
575
00:27:51.839 --> 00:27:55.440
Israel's military action in Gaza, my party didn't get it right,
576
00:27:55.799 --> 00:27:59.119
and I am sorry about that. The response has too
577
00:27:59.160 --> 00:28:03.240
often not been good enough. We need to do better. Yes,
578
00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:07.880
we have taken some important steps. These include recognizing the
579
00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:12.359
Palestinian state, placing sanctions on Israeli ministers, and imposing waves
580
00:28:12.359 --> 00:28:16.440
of sanctions on violent settlers and the organizations that support them.
581
00:28:16.559 --> 00:28:19.920
I also fully support the restrictions on arms licenses to
582
00:28:19.960 --> 00:28:22.240
make sure that no British bombs or bullets can be
583
00:28:22.319 --> 00:28:25.119
used by the IDF in Gaza or in the West Bank.
584
00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:28.160
But let's be honest, the UK was too slow to
585
00:28:28.160 --> 00:28:30.839
call for a ceasefire, and we must now do more
586
00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:36.160
to strengthen our approach. Israel continues to violate the ceasefire agreement,
587
00:28:36.440 --> 00:28:40.119
killing innocent Palestinians. We're seeing a surge in settler violence
588
00:28:40.119 --> 00:28:42.839
in the West Bank and East Jerusalem and the continued
589
00:28:42.880 --> 00:28:48.799
expansion of illegal settlements displacing Palestinian communities, and Nettnaku's government
590
00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:52.119
is clearly attempting to make a two state solution impossible.
591
00:28:52.480 --> 00:28:55.440
That's why we need to do more which includes looking
592
00:28:55.480 --> 00:28:58.720
at further sanctions both on those involved in the violence
593
00:28:58.720 --> 00:29:02.039
in Gaza, but also looking at measures to ban trade
594
00:29:02.079 --> 00:29:06.039
in goods with illegal settlements. I, like many people, feel
595
00:29:06.079 --> 00:29:08.799
passionately about Gaza, and I will do everything I can
596
00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:12.400
to work with international partners to stop the suffering, to
597
00:29:12.599 --> 00:29:16.559
ensure the Israeli government adheres to international law, and to
598
00:29:16.640 --> 00:29:19.680
keep the prospect of a two states solution alive because
599
00:29:19.720 --> 00:29:22.720
this is the only way to lasting peace for both
600
00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:26.920
Israelis and Palestinians. I have been absolutely appalled by what
601
00:29:27.039 --> 00:29:30.720
I've seen and read about the destruction of Gaza. There's
602
00:29:30.799 --> 00:29:34.079
increasing evidence that war crimes appear to have been committed.
603
00:29:34.720 --> 00:29:37.559
There must be accountability for the depth of the suffering
604
00:29:37.599 --> 00:29:41.240
the people of Gaza have experienced. Ultimately, however, it must
605
00:29:41.279 --> 00:29:44.720
be for the international courts to determine rather than politicians.
606
00:29:46.160 --> 00:29:48.279
So quite a lot of words there about things he
607
00:29:48.359 --> 00:29:53.039
will do, like constrain the Israeli strange good luckmate. But
608
00:29:53.400 --> 00:29:54.920
the important thing I think there was that bit at
609
00:29:54.960 --> 00:29:58.680
the end where he talked about how for him evidence
610
00:29:58.720 --> 00:30:01.160
is mounting that shows the be war crimes. But this
611
00:30:01.240 --> 00:30:03.960
is for courts to the side, which will only happen
612
00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:06.079
after the event, which means it's too late for anybody
613
00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:10.079
who is war crimed anyway. The Palisonian Solidarity Campaign has
614
00:30:10.079 --> 00:30:12.319
today it released a video and it shows that some
615
00:30:12.359 --> 00:30:14.839
of Burnham's new crop of ministers just don't agree with
616
00:30:14.920 --> 00:30:17.519
that thought that politicians shouldn't decide whether the war crimes
617
00:30:17.519 --> 00:30:19.480
have been committed by Israel in Garsa.
618
00:30:20.440 --> 00:30:23.119
It is impossible to conclude that this is anything less
619
00:30:23.359 --> 00:30:24.279
than a genocide.
620
00:30:29.559 --> 00:30:31.279
So on that basis.
621
00:30:31.039 --> 00:30:33.680
Will he reflect the will of this House to the
622
00:30:33.720 --> 00:30:38.279
Foreign Secretary and to the Cabinet to impose immediately sanctions
623
00:30:38.359 --> 00:30:41.160
on Nettan Yahoo and his genocidal regime.
624
00:30:41.599 --> 00:30:44.319
Genocide is not something we can only recognize when it's
625
00:30:44.359 --> 00:30:52.839
politically convenient. As a singletary to the Genocide Convention, we
626
00:30:52.920 --> 00:30:56.400
have a legal obligation to call out and prevent genocide.
627
00:30:56.559 --> 00:30:58.759
We owe it to not look away from the devastation
628
00:30:58.920 --> 00:31:01.319
and to bear witness to what has been inflicted on
629
00:31:01.400 --> 00:31:09.279
the Palestinian people. We owe it to bear witness to
630
00:31:09.279 --> 00:31:12.400
this history, to this ongoing genocide.
631
00:31:11.920 --> 00:31:14.960
Until the international community take further action. Letting now, whose
632
00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:23.279
pursuit of to ethnically cleanse Palestine will not end and
633
00:31:23.319 --> 00:31:26.319
the horrors of genocide become the waking nightmare for those
634
00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:27.519
still alive to witness it.
635
00:31:27.799 --> 00:31:30.640
The Minister knows the gravity of the moment that we
636
00:31:30.680 --> 00:31:40.119
are in famine, ethnic cleansing, genocide. He knows that our
637
00:31:40.160 --> 00:31:44.759
actions must be equal to the scale and the gravity
638
00:31:44.880 --> 00:31:45.400
of the moment.
639
00:31:45.799 --> 00:31:48.759
Genocide, genocide, genocide, genocide, a.
640
00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:53.640
Genocide, Andy Burnham, it is a genocide and it's time
641
00:31:53.880 --> 00:31:54.440
for action.
642
00:31:55.599 --> 00:31:58.240
Sign our petition sanctions now.
643
00:32:00.400 --> 00:32:00.680
Cool.
644
00:32:00.720 --> 00:32:03.920
Interesting there, So you've got Andy Burnham saying, you know,
645
00:32:04.039 --> 00:32:05.599
we've got to leave it to the courts to decide
646
00:32:05.640 --> 00:32:07.440
whether they're all. They didn't even use the word genocide.
647
00:32:07.480 --> 00:32:09.240
He just said war crimes, whether war crimes are being
648
00:32:09.240 --> 00:32:13.279
committed in Israel, which I think they so obviously are
649
00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:17.960
you know, obviously you know, I mean, I think that
650
00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:20.319
this is obviously genocidal behavior on the part of Israel.
651
00:32:20.319 --> 00:32:22.480
But I can see that, you know, other people might
652
00:32:22.519 --> 00:32:26.359
have might think differently about it, whatever war crimes I think.
653
00:32:26.519 --> 00:32:28.200
You know, there's there's this like and there's no debate
654
00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:30.839
about that. And then you've got a number of his
655
00:32:30.920 --> 00:32:34.160
minister's new ministers who have in the past just openly
656
00:32:34.160 --> 00:32:35.160
called it a genocide.
657
00:32:35.240 --> 00:32:36.319
In Parliament.
658
00:32:36.359 --> 00:32:37.920
I wanted to bring this up because I was wondering
659
00:32:38.000 --> 00:32:40.799
what you thought about the tensions in this new kind
660
00:32:40.839 --> 00:32:44.720
of regime, the Burnham regime, between those who you know,
661
00:32:44.880 --> 00:32:47.920
very taken a very clear position on Israel and wh
662
00:32:47.920 --> 00:32:50.400
should happen in terms of Israel and those in his
663
00:32:51.039 --> 00:32:55.240
in his cabinet who are up for having old ladies
664
00:32:55.240 --> 00:33:00.599
locked up, for holding signs, for supporting a group that's
665
00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:03.759
been prescribed in otherwords, Palistine action, whose prescription they think
666
00:33:03.799 --> 00:33:06.799
of as wrong for you know, they're not themselves necessarily
667
00:33:06.839 --> 00:33:09.480
even supporting that group. They're just like they're opposed to
668
00:33:09.480 --> 00:33:11.559
the prescription for lots of different reasons.
669
00:33:11.960 --> 00:33:14.200
So I think there's a there's a whole bunch of
670
00:33:14.240 --> 00:33:17.519
things to like unpack the I mean the one. The
671
00:33:17.559 --> 00:33:19.720
one is first of all, you know, unfortunately the people
672
00:33:19.759 --> 00:33:23.000
that they've put up in that video are very junior.
673
00:33:23.440 --> 00:33:27.279
The only exception is louse Haye, who's obviously it's very powerful, very.
674
00:33:27.200 --> 00:33:30.799
Very very significant job and obviously like a very close
675
00:33:30.799 --> 00:33:32.119
figure to burn.
676
00:33:32.640 --> 00:33:36.160
And but the rest are you know, rarely not. This
677
00:33:36.240 --> 00:33:38.559
is the sort of third level minosterialppointments that they don't
678
00:33:38.599 --> 00:33:40.440
care carry. Do you want to wait, and they're very
679
00:33:40.480 --> 00:33:42.559
much they were. They were released in the third level
680
00:33:42.559 --> 00:33:46.200
of third round of announcements as as I think pretty
681
00:33:46.240 --> 00:33:47.759
much have already sort of understood them to be a
682
00:33:47.880 --> 00:33:49.680
sobs to the left to be like, you're not being
683
00:33:49.799 --> 00:33:55.559
entirely excluded the balance of actually his cabinet is very
684
00:33:55.640 --> 00:33:58.319
much not reflective of a pro Palestine position at all.
685
00:33:58.359 --> 00:34:01.200
And like the you know, almost everybody in his cabinet
686
00:34:01.240 --> 00:34:04.920
right now were people who who've defended and supported the
687
00:34:04.960 --> 00:34:06.680
you know, both the perscussion of pot us An action
688
00:34:07.039 --> 00:34:09.039
and have said pretty awful things on israelm So, I mean,
689
00:34:09.159 --> 00:34:13.199
you know, regardless of where streeting is bizarre text to
690
00:34:13.239 --> 00:34:16.119
Peter Mandelsson, and he said the ICJ judgment and the
691
00:34:16.159 --> 00:34:18.840
i CJ process was a distraction, right, this is this
692
00:34:18.920 --> 00:34:19.960
is something that he said.
693
00:34:20.639 --> 00:34:22.960
I think when recently asked about all crimes here, you know,
694
00:34:23.519 --> 00:34:27.119
committed by Israel, he said something like, yes, we've got
695
00:34:27.119 --> 00:34:28.679
to keep our friends in line when they when they
696
00:34:28.679 --> 00:34:29.199
step out of.
697
00:34:29.639 --> 00:34:31.599
Absolutely ridiculous that that, you know, as he's come in
698
00:34:31.679 --> 00:34:32.480
defense secretary.
699
00:34:32.679 --> 00:34:34.360
So my sense is.
700
00:34:36.280 --> 00:34:39.800
Is that people who would be presenting a countervailing opinion
701
00:34:39.840 --> 00:34:42.760
are relatively marginal in his cabinet. But that's not to
702
00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:45.519
suggest that there's other people's cabin like Chibanomo who aren't
703
00:34:45.519 --> 00:34:47.440
going to be feeling local pressure because you know, she
704
00:34:47.559 --> 00:34:49.320
might lose so seating, so might where streeting be came
705
00:34:49.360 --> 00:34:51.840
around this issue. But I do think that there is
706
00:34:52.519 --> 00:34:54.679
this is this is where Burnham is going to be bad,
707
00:34:55.320 --> 00:34:56.639
Like this is where I'm going to break it to you, like,
708
00:34:56.679 --> 00:34:58.639
this is where Burnham is going to be bad because
709
00:34:58.639 --> 00:35:01.760
this is this is this is the decision that he's made.
710
00:35:02.239 --> 00:35:03.960
This is the way that he's decided to govern. And
711
00:35:03.960 --> 00:35:06.159
I think it's pretty clear the way that he's done this.
712
00:35:06.239 --> 00:35:09.400
He's basically said, I'm going to have like a pretty
713
00:35:09.440 --> 00:35:15.360
forward looking progressive domestic agenda. I'm going to touch nothing internationally.
714
00:35:15.760 --> 00:35:17.559
I'm going to do exactly what's been that upens at
715
00:35:17.559 --> 00:35:20.760
this point in time. I'm going to do, uh, you know,
716
00:35:20.800 --> 00:35:22.920
I'm going to increase defense spending even that the disasters
717
00:35:22.960 --> 00:35:25.559
have increased defense spending. I'm going to actually increase our
718
00:35:25.559 --> 00:35:30.320
interdependence with America through defense spending, even though obviously a
719
00:35:30.360 --> 00:35:33.199
shocking idea from a security perspective. I am not going
720
00:35:33.239 --> 00:35:35.320
to significantly increase the amount of money we spend on
721
00:35:35.320 --> 00:35:38.840
climate change. I'm actually even going to you know, reallocate
722
00:35:38.960 --> 00:35:41.599
some money that's supposed to be used for international fight
723
00:35:41.639 --> 00:35:44.320
against climate change to domestic priorities, which is one of
724
00:35:44.320 --> 00:35:46.639
the first ways that he funded one of his new announcements.
725
00:35:47.000 --> 00:35:51.960
And because you know, inside the Labor Party and inside
726
00:35:51.960 --> 00:35:55.400
their strategizing, you know, segmentation analysis is a big part
727
00:35:55.400 --> 00:35:59.239
of how they perceive the world. And there was recently
728
00:35:59.320 --> 00:36:05.239
a a you know, another policy debate around you know,
729
00:36:05.239 --> 00:36:07.599
how does the layor party win the next election. And
730
00:36:07.920 --> 00:36:10.840
effectively what's been happened that the standard Labor Party segmentation
731
00:36:10.840 --> 00:36:14.360
analysis of Britain separates Britain to six to eight segments
732
00:36:14.440 --> 00:36:18.360
and then they pretty relentlessly target one or two segments
733
00:36:18.400 --> 00:36:20.639
who are they call voting will win them an election,
734
00:36:20.840 --> 00:36:24.119
especially now that the whole elections becomes a fractured and
735
00:36:24.159 --> 00:36:26.519
I think it's very clear that they have watched segment
736
00:36:26.519 --> 00:36:29.280
they've chosen, They've chosen the segment that's represented by Makeerfield
737
00:36:29.760 --> 00:36:32.400
and that's what used to be called in segmentation, unless
738
00:36:32.400 --> 00:36:34.719
it's given different names, one of which is is the
739
00:36:34.719 --> 00:36:37.960
patriotic left. Now this is people who are older, who
740
00:36:37.960 --> 00:36:41.360
wipe their working class. They're generally not you know, quite
741
00:36:41.360 --> 00:36:43.440
a few of them are owned a small property. They're
742
00:36:43.480 --> 00:36:45.880
not like you know, they're not destined by any they're
743
00:36:45.880 --> 00:36:48.039
not poor by any means. But you know, they will
744
00:36:48.079 --> 00:36:51.719
obviously have felt the cost of living impact on their
745
00:36:51.719 --> 00:36:53.800
abilities to live their lives to the fullest. Will be
746
00:36:53.840 --> 00:36:57.440
experiencing a lot of holidays and like a lot of luxuries,
747
00:36:57.960 --> 00:37:01.960
and increasingly, like some foreclosing the of like the sense
748
00:37:02.039 --> 00:37:04.239
of their life and the life of the generation blism
749
00:37:04.280 --> 00:37:07.880
is getting better. But this is also a segment that's
750
00:37:08.039 --> 00:37:11.239
that's open to ideals like it's open to the idea
751
00:37:11.239 --> 00:37:14.280
of having like a nationalized post office and a nationalized
752
00:37:14.320 --> 00:37:14.880
rail service.
753
00:37:14.880 --> 00:37:16.480
They're like big state interventions.
754
00:37:16.599 --> 00:37:18.719
They have a fondness for their n hgest of a
755
00:37:18.719 --> 00:37:24.039
fondness for the post war settlement, but they aren't particularly that,
756
00:37:24.239 --> 00:37:27.280
you know, they weak on issues on immigration. They're not
757
00:37:27.280 --> 00:37:31.880
pro immigration generally speaking, although it won't necessarily determine their thinking.
758
00:37:31.880 --> 00:37:33.360
But this is what the poling suggests that it's not
759
00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:36.800
high their list of priorities and international based on Highland's
760
00:37:36.800 --> 00:37:39.440
so priorities and I feel like, but what burnhamers basically
761
00:37:39.480 --> 00:37:41.320
do is he's done a deal. He's basically said, well,
762
00:37:41.320 --> 00:37:46.480
what I'll do is establishment the political filmment. Let me
763
00:37:46.519 --> 00:37:49.800
do some radical stuff domestically, and I will make sure
764
00:37:50.280 --> 00:37:53.119
that all the other stuff runs as it does for
765
00:37:53.119 --> 00:37:55.960
the next two to three years, probably for the next
766
00:37:55.960 --> 00:37:58.000
five to ten years. And you can really see that
767
00:37:58.039 --> 00:38:00.440
with a defense spending, you know that they're is going
768
00:38:00.480 --> 00:38:02.679
to be a massive wratch to being up of defense spending,
769
00:38:03.039 --> 00:38:05.840
which is really problematic because eight percent of all UK
770
00:38:05.920 --> 00:38:09.000
imports come from Israel. Becomes a defense export. So when
771
00:38:09.000 --> 00:38:11.079
you're saying we're going to be increasing defense bending, where
772
00:38:11.079 --> 00:38:13.599
you actually saying the underlying messages, we increase the amount
773
00:38:13.599 --> 00:38:15.920
of money we need to be sending into ISRAELI actually
774
00:38:16.119 --> 00:38:19.079
to Alberton has ready defense systems, right, So this is
775
00:38:19.119 --> 00:38:22.360
where he's going to be bad, I think, and I
776
00:38:22.360 --> 00:38:29.079
think that beyond a couple of very small sort of
777
00:38:29.480 --> 00:38:32.280
I'm a bit sorry, but rueful, it's not going to
778
00:38:32.360 --> 00:38:34.159
change fundament Can I just say one more thing?
779
00:38:34.199 --> 00:38:35.639
I know we're speaking of a long time, no go on.
780
00:38:36.039 --> 00:38:39.039
I get so pissed off politicians who say that it's
781
00:38:39.079 --> 00:38:41.760
up to the course to decide it. Literally, isn't it
782
00:38:41.840 --> 00:38:44.599
literally isn't for the course to decide our arms export
783
00:38:44.639 --> 00:38:46.159
magime is run on the risk base, on our risk
784
00:38:46.199 --> 00:38:48.800
based principle. It is up to our government and it's
785
00:38:48.800 --> 00:38:50.719
actually up to the departments and the Wisness Force to
786
00:38:50.760 --> 00:38:53.280
make a determination about whether the arms are being sold
787
00:38:53.480 --> 00:38:55.960
according to a risk profile. Is there a risk that
788
00:38:56.000 --> 00:38:57.760
these arms are going to be used in war crimes?
789
00:38:57.840 --> 00:38:59.599
Are they going to be used to be used an
790
00:38:59.599 --> 00:39:03.519
international conflicts? That is set within our own arms trade regulations.
791
00:39:03.960 --> 00:39:06.400
It would be mad to be a situation where you
792
00:39:06.440 --> 00:39:08.239
had to wait for a quart away another because then
793
00:39:08.280 --> 00:39:09.639
you'd basically be like, well it was going to say
794
00:39:09.639 --> 00:39:11.280
an arms to everybody and then find our ten years
795
00:39:11.280 --> 00:39:12.800
too late. Of course, we have to operate on a
796
00:39:12.880 --> 00:39:15.599
risk principle. You can't do any forward planning or licensing
797
00:39:15.679 --> 00:39:17.800
or if you don't operate on a risk principle like
798
00:39:18.199 --> 00:39:20.000
this is this is not the way government works.
799
00:39:20.360 --> 00:39:22.719
And actually, if you wanted, if you wanted a court
800
00:39:22.760 --> 00:39:25.480
to have said something, the ICJ did say that there
801
00:39:25.519 --> 00:39:26.599
was a risk of genocide.
802
00:39:26.679 --> 00:39:29.559
Yes, so you and not just that there's a risk
803
00:39:29.599 --> 00:39:32.159
of genocide, but that you are now bound to prevent it. Exactly,
804
00:39:32.199 --> 00:39:34.079
you've got to you've got to take steps to do it,
805
00:39:34.320 --> 00:39:37.280
not just nothing. You've actually got to prevent it. And
806
00:39:37.320 --> 00:39:39.199
that's the key word, to prevent. You've got to be
807
00:39:39.280 --> 00:39:43.000
taking active steps to prevent, to actually give you know,
808
00:39:44.280 --> 00:39:47.199
some substance to what the IC gas say. What the
809
00:39:47.239 --> 00:39:49.199
ACE is actually saying is you need to go in
810
00:39:49.239 --> 00:39:52.079
there and stop is role doing this. That's your duty.
811
00:39:52.519 --> 00:39:54.679
Whether it's people, or whether it's shutting off the economy
812
00:39:54.719 --> 00:39:57.039
or whether it's putting in sanctions, you actually have a
813
00:39:57.119 --> 00:39:58.480
duty to do it.
814
00:39:58.760 --> 00:39:58.880
Now.
815
00:39:58.920 --> 00:40:00.280
Of course, the problem is the ice jairs going to
816
00:40:00.320 --> 00:40:02.920
take ten exactly, take it all over by the time
817
00:40:03.000 --> 00:40:10.280
the ice gets itself. So sadly I think that I
818
00:40:10.320 --> 00:40:12.599
think on this stuff Burnham is going to be disappointing.
819
00:40:12.639 --> 00:40:15.119
It doesn't mean necessarily mean you can't be pressured, but
820
00:40:15.159 --> 00:40:19.920
I do also think in sort of the broader political filament,
821
00:40:20.000 --> 00:40:22.079
this is the sort of place that the Greens to
822
00:40:22.119 --> 00:40:25.320
Progressives can draw like a very clear line of difference.
823
00:40:25.320 --> 00:40:27.760
And this is where we stand on foreign policy. We
824
00:40:27.800 --> 00:40:30.920
take an ethical approach to it. Our foreig policy approach
825
00:40:30.960 --> 00:40:32.960
is based on human security and that's what we care about.
826
00:40:33.079 --> 00:40:35.199
And as a result of the position that you're predicting,
827
00:40:35.199 --> 00:40:37.639
which I think you're probably right about. They will find
828
00:40:37.639 --> 00:40:39.840
it easier to take seats off of Labor in those
829
00:40:39.880 --> 00:40:41.000
areas that.
830
00:40:40.679 --> 00:40:42.079
That burn will essentially abandon.
831
00:40:42.480 --> 00:40:45.840
I think that's I think that's accurate, certainly in the
832
00:40:45.840 --> 00:40:47.880
short term. I mean, i'd imagine that Burnham and his
833
00:40:47.920 --> 00:40:52.599
allies have like a plan for reconstituting the Labor Party.
834
00:40:52.639 --> 00:40:55.840
I don't think it's going to work on its current trajectory,
835
00:40:55.880 --> 00:40:59.840
because I think you need to do more to re
836
00:41:00.039 --> 00:41:02.920
canies Cosmo politicism and Britain as like as a real
837
00:41:02.960 --> 00:41:06.199
force in international solidarity, as a real force for our politics.
838
00:41:07.000 --> 00:41:10.559
My sense is that for this next electoral cycle, the
839
00:41:10.639 --> 00:41:15.480
Labor Party will effectively not give up. Will probably internally
840
00:41:15.519 --> 00:41:17.280
have a sense that they're going to lose places at Bristol,
841
00:41:17.320 --> 00:41:19.519
They're going to lose big parts of London, They're going
842
00:41:19.559 --> 00:41:23.280
to lose you know, Norwich, They're going to lose very
843
00:41:23.280 --> 00:41:26.480
substantial parts of Birmingham. But they will reconstitute some of
844
00:41:26.519 --> 00:41:30.119
their voting coalition outside of Yeah, that's right, and that's
845
00:41:30.599 --> 00:41:32.679
I think from a national perspective, it's a good thing.
846
00:41:33.960 --> 00:41:37.400
I think because all of this suggests that the one
847
00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:39.880
thing that I think we are going to have to
848
00:41:39.880 --> 00:41:43.079
give Burnham credit for, even though I'm criticizing him here
849
00:41:43.320 --> 00:41:45.639
is I think if he does the domestic stuff well,
850
00:41:47.079 --> 00:41:52.440
he then reduces the structural conditions that produce reform, and
851
00:41:52.480 --> 00:41:54.559
I think that could be in a major achievement, and
852
00:41:54.599 --> 00:41:56.880
then that generally brings all of our politics more left
853
00:41:56.880 --> 00:41:59.360
wing and more humane and more interesting and more.
854
00:42:01.079 --> 00:42:01.440
Normal.
855
00:42:01.559 --> 00:42:01.760
Yeah.
856
00:42:01.760 --> 00:42:03.480
I mean, that's going to be a reforms fear, isn't it.
857
00:42:03.599 --> 00:42:05.679
That is what they are going to do, and in
858
00:42:05.679 --> 00:42:07.800
fact looks like they have been to some extent making
859
00:42:07.800 --> 00:42:10.639
them in roads, even though reform has been very very
860
00:42:10.679 --> 00:42:13.559
well destroying itself in the last few few months of
861
00:42:13.639 --> 00:42:15.320
ven and may have got a bit lucky there. The
862
00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:19.000
tiny Spanish territory of Cuta shares a border with Morocco
863
00:42:19.079 --> 00:42:21.880
in North Africa, and on Thursday a record number of
864
00:42:21.920 --> 00:42:23.719
migrants swam from Morocco.
865
00:42:23.440 --> 00:42:24.119
To the enclave.
866
00:42:24.599 --> 00:42:28.159
Spanish officials have estimated that some forty nine thousand people
867
00:42:28.239 --> 00:42:31.239
swam around barriers to the territory, which consists largely of
868
00:42:31.280 --> 00:42:33.599
a single city. Given that the current population of the
869
00:42:33.639 --> 00:42:37.360
region is just eighty thousand people, that's an overwhelming number.
870
00:42:37.719 --> 00:42:41.679
The migrants were mostly young Moroccan men, but included women, children,
871
00:42:41.760 --> 00:42:45.000
and non Moroccans. At least fifty seven people have died
872
00:42:45.039 --> 00:42:49.519
attempting to enter Queta, according to the territory's president. Spain's
873
00:42:49.559 --> 00:42:52.199
Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez has called it an attack and
874
00:42:52.239 --> 00:42:56.679
a violation of Spain's territorial integrity. As a part of Spain,
875
00:42:56.760 --> 00:42:59.119
Queta is also part of the EU, that led EU
876
00:42:59.119 --> 00:43:03.920
Commissioner condlay And to say this, the images coming from
877
00:43:03.960 --> 00:43:06.559
Queta are unacceptable. We cannot allow anyone to come to
878
00:43:06.639 --> 00:43:09.880
our union without abiding by our rules. Dangerous crossings must
879
00:43:09.920 --> 00:43:13.559
stop immediately, Smuggling networks must be dismantled, and returns must
880
00:43:13.599 --> 00:43:16.480
be swift as our rules allow. I task two commissioners
881
00:43:16.519 --> 00:43:19.920
to support to control the situation. Returns have taken place
882
00:43:19.960 --> 00:43:22.960
throughout today, with thirty seven thousand people returned to Morocco
883
00:43:23.039 --> 00:43:26.840
by this afternoon, according to Spanish authorities. Now what triggered
884
00:43:26.840 --> 00:43:29.119
this sudden rush of people from Morocco isn't known, but
885
00:43:29.159 --> 00:43:34.039
The Financial Times has reported this. The influx in the
886
00:43:34.039 --> 00:43:36.480
coast Or Enclave, which has a population of about eighty
887
00:43:36.480 --> 00:43:39.559
three thousand and is hemmed in by Morocco led analyst
888
00:43:39.679 --> 00:43:42.480
to suggest the Moroccan authorities had deliberately enabled the stream
889
00:43:42.519 --> 00:43:46.519
of migrants. Queta and Spain's other North African enclave, Malia,
890
00:43:46.840 --> 00:43:49.840
have long been sources of tension with Morocco, and less
891
00:43:49.880 --> 00:43:52.760
see the threat of migrants overwhelming Spain's enclaves by land
892
00:43:52.840 --> 00:43:55.199
or sea as a key source of Rabout's leverage over
893
00:43:55.199 --> 00:43:58.800
at Madrid. Thousands of people spawned storm brother Queta in
894
00:43:58.800 --> 00:44:01.760
twenty twenty one after a diplomatic riff between Spain and
895
00:44:01.800 --> 00:44:06.360
Morocco over Western Sahara, a territory claimed by Rabat. That
896
00:44:06.519 --> 00:44:10.000
doesn't explain, however, why, if true, Morocco would have enabled
897
00:44:10.079 --> 00:44:13.719
this mass journey of migrants at this particular moment. But
898
00:44:13.800 --> 00:44:16.639
in recent months, the US has also gotten involved in
899
00:44:16.679 --> 00:44:20.519
the dispute. In May, Congressman Marioda's Balat, a key ally
900
00:44:20.599 --> 00:44:23.199
of U Secree of State Marco Rubio, told a Spanish
901
00:44:23.199 --> 00:44:27.199
newspaper that neither territory were in the geographical territory of Spain,
902
00:44:27.440 --> 00:44:32.719
but rather of Morocco. Better not mention Alaska, Puerto Rico
903
00:44:32.920 --> 00:44:35.079
or Hawaii, although of course he's not wrong in terms
904
00:44:35.079 --> 00:44:38.639
of geography, but those remarks were seen by some as
905
00:44:38.719 --> 00:44:42.119
revenge for Spain's increasingly defined attitude to the US. Actions
906
00:44:42.119 --> 00:44:45.760
that irritated the Americans included denying US forces involved in
907
00:44:45.800 --> 00:44:48.280
the country's illegal war on Iran use of bases on
908
00:44:48.320 --> 00:44:51.760
Spanish territory and culminated in Spain closing its s by
909
00:44:52.000 --> 00:44:55.800
S base to US military flights. Spanish ministers, including Prime
910
00:44:55.800 --> 00:44:59.039
Minister Sanchez, have repeatedly called the war illegal and immoral.
911
00:44:59.559 --> 00:45:02.400
Israel is also on very bad terms of Spain after
912
00:45:02.400 --> 00:45:05.320
Sanchoz described the country's actions in Gaza as a genocide,
913
00:45:05.480 --> 00:45:08.079
imposed the total arms blockade, and called for Israel to
914
00:45:08.079 --> 00:45:11.599
be banned from international sport as a result. Israel's ambassador
915
00:45:11.679 --> 00:45:13.960
to the UN, Danny Danon, has also had a go
916
00:45:14.159 --> 00:45:19.400
posting this Spain, which never misses an opportunity to lecture Israel,
917
00:45:19.440 --> 00:45:21.880
has the clearest state of emergency in Quetta following the
918
00:45:21.920 --> 00:45:26.239
crisis over its immigration policy. Maybe before it continues lecturing us,
919
00:45:26.239 --> 00:45:28.599
it's time it explained to the world why it still
920
00:45:28.679 --> 00:45:34.840
maintains colonial enclaves in Africa. I think colonial enclaves are
921
00:45:34.840 --> 00:45:37.320
probably wrong, but I think you can still have colonial
922
00:45:37.400 --> 00:45:40.239
enclaves and criticize a country which has killed tens of
923
00:45:40.280 --> 00:45:46.000
thousands of children's children from the air. So sorry, Danny,
924
00:45:46.119 --> 00:45:49.599
not buying it. Morocco has continually asserted its claims to
925
00:45:49.639 --> 00:45:52.480
the two territories held by Spain, and when you look
926
00:45:52.519 --> 00:45:54.960
at the map you can see why. With Queta sitting
927
00:45:54.960 --> 00:45:58.880
about twenty kilometers from Spain. From Spain at Morocco's northernmost
928
00:45:58.960 --> 00:46:02.760
point that geographical distance, the British right are having a
929
00:46:02.760 --> 00:46:05.760
field day. Jack Davey in The Telegraph has declared the
930
00:46:05.760 --> 00:46:09.400
Spanish left responsible for the invasion, linking it to Sanchez's
931
00:46:09.400 --> 00:46:13.800
amnesty for undocumented migrants announced earlier this year. Meanwhile, GB
932
00:46:13.960 --> 00:46:16.760
News tried to spook its audience by describing the event
933
00:46:16.960 --> 00:46:21.840
as sixty thousand migrants storming the Spanish border. Don't know
934
00:46:21.880 --> 00:46:26.440
how much geography gb News audiences. No, I didn't know
935
00:46:26.480 --> 00:46:30.679
about Queta before today. That's a pretty incendiary way of
936
00:46:30.719 --> 00:46:34.800
describing the matter. This was Navarre's Aaron Besani on that channel.
937
00:46:35.480 --> 00:46:38.119
But in the case of these particular endcloves, they are
938
00:46:38.159 --> 00:46:40.079
in Africa. I think this is really important to say
939
00:46:40.199 --> 00:46:43.159
they are on the land mass of Africa, and I
940
00:46:44.079 --> 00:46:47.960
would submit that if you have territory like that, this
941
00:46:48.000 --> 00:46:51.440
will happen. Imagine again for British audience, Imagine if Gibraltar
942
00:46:51.719 --> 00:46:54.840
wasn't tied to Spain but was tied to Afghanistan, we
943
00:46:54.880 --> 00:46:57.280
would have lots of Afkhans trying to go there and
944
00:46:57.320 --> 00:46:59.599
then trying to get British citizenship. I mean, that's basically
945
00:46:59.679 --> 00:47:02.519
you know, two plus two equals four logic. So there's
946
00:47:02.519 --> 00:47:05.280
a problem for Spain which goes back many, many years.
947
00:47:05.559 --> 00:47:08.360
It's a problem for governments of the right of the left,
948
00:47:08.400 --> 00:47:09.119
the center right, or.
949
00:47:09.119 --> 00:47:09.840
The center left.
950
00:47:11.119 --> 00:47:13.000
What I'd add is it is different in so much
951
00:47:13.079 --> 00:47:16.079
as and it's unique inso much as these aren't refugees.
952
00:47:16.639 --> 00:47:19.400
Morocco is a relatively successful country.
953
00:47:19.639 --> 00:47:22.159
So the argument's being made for them to enter Spain,
954
00:47:22.880 --> 00:47:25.039
let's get a citizenship. Aren't the same that you would
955
00:47:25.039 --> 00:47:27.679
have had Cassiria in Germany in twenty fifteen, or four
956
00:47:28.800 --> 00:47:32.280
Iranians or Afghans coming to Britain in the last ten years.
957
00:47:32.599 --> 00:47:34.079
Morocco's quite a successful country.
958
00:47:34.119 --> 00:47:36.480
And also what was mentioned there about them being young men,
959
00:47:36.840 --> 00:47:39.000
they are. You can see that there is no ambiguity
960
00:47:39.039 --> 00:47:42.280
here that is overwhelmingly young, healthy men. By the way,
961
00:47:42.320 --> 00:47:44.559
many which I'm sure want to make a life for
962
00:47:44.599 --> 00:47:46.559
themselves and work really hard and just do really well.
963
00:47:46.559 --> 00:47:48.559
They want opportunities to fit young men. You can see that.
964
00:47:49.920 --> 00:47:52.719
So it's a really really unique situation. And you know,
965
00:47:53.239 --> 00:47:57.079
unless Spain pitches this territory. I think Queta is about
966
00:47:57.239 --> 00:48:00.760
sixteen square kilometers, it's very very small, and they've had
967
00:48:00.760 --> 00:48:02.360
it for like four or five hundred years. And not
968
00:48:02.519 --> 00:48:04.559
just that they should do that, but unless they do
969
00:48:04.559 --> 00:48:06.440
do that, I don't really understand how you stop it.
970
00:48:08.119 --> 00:48:08.320
Well.
971
00:48:08.360 --> 00:48:11.559
I mean, like one way of describing this situation is
972
00:48:11.599 --> 00:48:16.719
Moroccans going to Morocco and you know, you know, national
973
00:48:16.719 --> 00:48:19.440
sovereignty and all of that. You know, this is clearly
974
00:48:19.480 --> 00:48:23.360
just a tiny enclave that Spain has for strategic reasons.
975
00:48:23.400 --> 00:48:25.840
It's you know, in a very important part whether we're terraining.
976
00:48:25.960 --> 00:48:30.000
The Strait of Gibraltar is narrow, but you know, it's
977
00:48:30.039 --> 00:48:31.599
not an invasion of Spain, is I know that there
978
00:48:31.599 --> 00:48:33.599
are rules that mean that you know, like people manage
979
00:48:33.639 --> 00:48:39.440
to get to the mainland, you know, the the borderless
980
00:48:39.519 --> 00:48:42.280
nature of Europe means that you know, I mean, there's
981
00:48:42.280 --> 00:48:45.480
no there's no sense, there's no as far as I've seen,
982
00:48:45.480 --> 00:48:47.199
there's no indication that that's what people in fact want
983
00:48:47.199 --> 00:48:50.639
to do, and you know, being moved back out of
984
00:48:50.679 --> 00:48:52.679
Morocco into Morocco pretty quickly.
985
00:48:52.639 --> 00:48:53.519
Well, there's no sense that.
986
00:48:53.679 --> 00:48:57.159
Well so the first of all, like just just before
987
00:48:57.159 --> 00:48:58.920
we came on, there's been new figures being released about
988
00:48:58.920 --> 00:49:01.239
the numbers of returns. And also there seems to be
989
00:49:02.440 --> 00:49:04.760
depending on the source, you read, a lot of discussion
990
00:49:05.280 --> 00:49:07.760
and the lack of clarity about the number of people
991
00:49:07.760 --> 00:49:10.320
who actually went over the board. So all the reporting
992
00:49:10.360 --> 00:49:14.159
says local estimates suggests sixty thousand. What local estimates the Spanish,
993
00:49:14.800 --> 00:49:16.360
the Spanish government have said it's forty nine.
994
00:49:16.239 --> 00:49:18.880
Thousand people crossed over, and.
995
00:49:20.239 --> 00:49:22.679
Of which they say about you know, forty five forty
996
00:49:22.679 --> 00:49:26.159
six thousand people have already returned. And it basically seems
997
00:49:26.159 --> 00:49:30.480
to be a message had been sent that basically if
998
00:49:30.800 --> 00:49:33.519
through people might listen also of other different people. But basically,
999
00:49:33.559 --> 00:49:36.119
you come to Queta, then there is a possibility that
1000
00:49:36.119 --> 00:49:38.119
there's going to be the amnesty that have been applied
1001
00:49:38.119 --> 00:49:40.079
to other migrants, you might be able to come into
1002
00:49:40.159 --> 00:49:41.880
the EU, there might be some sort of and basically
1003
00:49:41.920 --> 00:49:43.880
it's not true. People found out wasn't true and they
1004
00:49:43.880 --> 00:49:47.920
went back home basically and it seems to me like
1005
00:49:47.960 --> 00:49:50.639
there's a lot of people trying to make and draw
1006
00:49:50.800 --> 00:49:56.360
political inferences are way beyond justified. But what's actually happened.
1007
00:49:56.400 --> 00:49:58.199
So one thing that happened literally against before we came
1008
00:49:58.199 --> 00:50:00.480
on air is that Italy a suspense that a cheng
1009
00:50:00.559 --> 00:50:01.519
and agreement.
1010
00:50:01.800 --> 00:50:02.920
As I said it was going to.
1011
00:50:05.360 --> 00:50:08.679
This is this is incredibly stupid to I mean, that's
1012
00:50:08.679 --> 00:50:11.400
a they share a land border, like they're none of
1013
00:50:11.400 --> 00:50:14.079
these people who have gone to Quita, have crossed, have
1014
00:50:14.079 --> 00:50:14.559
have then.
1015
00:50:16.119 --> 00:50:18.280
Swam. You can't them that straight.
1016
00:50:18.760 --> 00:50:21.199
There's not like an army of boats that people have
1017
00:50:21.239 --> 00:50:23.079
gotten onto and then gone onto the mainland and then
1018
00:50:23.079 --> 00:50:24.400
are heading for the border of Italy.
1019
00:50:24.920 --> 00:50:26.280
This feels like just.
1020
00:50:27.920 --> 00:50:32.559
It feels like there's a degree of internal EU dispute
1021
00:50:33.599 --> 00:50:35.760
that certainly you countries do more right wing and have
1022
00:50:35.800 --> 00:50:39.119
more populous leaders. Look at Spain and they don't particularly
1023
00:50:39.159 --> 00:50:42.400
like their approach to immigration, and there's been like scare
1024
00:50:42.480 --> 00:50:47.039
mongering in presses like Italy in Czechoslovakia around what does
1025
00:50:47.079 --> 00:50:49.519
this mean for the EU? And this is a political
1026
00:50:49.559 --> 00:50:51.320
weapon for them to be using. But actually, you know,
1027
00:50:51.480 --> 00:50:54.199
even though it's very odd and it's awful that you know,
1028
00:50:54.239 --> 00:50:55.800
one thing has been lost in the coverage, it seems
1029
00:50:55.840 --> 00:50:58.119
to me, is that people have died, and that's awful.
1030
00:50:58.360 --> 00:51:02.559
Fifty seven people die, which is terrible, and obviously, you know,
1031
00:51:02.960 --> 00:51:06.159
the people who've caused that to happen should be held
1032
00:51:06.199 --> 00:51:09.119
to I can't but this idea that this suddenly being
1033
00:51:09.199 --> 00:51:12.840
like Spain has suddenly created this like mass immigration panic
1034
00:51:12.840 --> 00:51:13.719
in Europe as nonsense.
1035
00:51:13.840 --> 00:51:15.400
Yeah, it's totally nonsense.
1036
00:51:15.440 --> 00:51:17.239
I mean I was I was more drawn to like
1037
00:51:17.480 --> 00:51:21.320
the sort of State Department operation angle angle here. And
1038
00:51:21.360 --> 00:51:24.199
it's not just because of that congressman. It's in the
1039
00:51:24.400 --> 00:51:29.039
American Enterprise Institute just earlier this this this year, this guy,
1040
00:51:29.280 --> 00:51:31.840
I think Michael Rubin was writing about like literally, this
1041
00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:35.199
is what Morocco should do. It should use bulldoze as
1042
00:51:35.199 --> 00:51:37.400
it should send people over, It should reclaim these territories.
1043
00:51:37.559 --> 00:51:39.960
I think there is such a you know, in the
1044
00:51:39.719 --> 00:51:42.960
in the in the US rights, such an antagonism towards Spain.
1045
00:51:43.400 --> 00:51:45.719
It's not just for like the military stuff, the bases
1046
00:51:45.760 --> 00:51:51.239
and the airspace over Iran, or it's you know, condemnation
1047
00:51:51.320 --> 00:51:54.119
of Israel. It is also because of that Amnesty project.
1048
00:51:54.199 --> 00:51:56.239
You know, if you remember that document that the State
1049
00:51:56.239 --> 00:51:59.239
Department released last year about you know, it's sort of
1050
00:51:59.280 --> 00:52:04.960
strategic plans for you know, it's strategy where the folks
1051
00:52:05.039 --> 00:52:11.239
on Europe was cultural change mildly and where it was
1052
00:52:11.280 --> 00:52:14.480
you know, this is like the most important issue facing Europe,
1053
00:52:14.480 --> 00:52:18.719
and Spain is really kind of modeling the opposite of that.
1054
00:52:19.800 --> 00:52:23.039
Yeah, and I mean that document was mad, by the way,
1055
00:52:23.119 --> 00:52:26.519
totally like the most like pulled out of Elo Musk's brain,
1056
00:52:28.599 --> 00:52:32.880
you know, clash Civilizations dance and which I mean, if
1057
00:52:32.880 --> 00:52:35.199
I remember, he basically said that Europe is no longer
1058
00:52:35.320 --> 00:52:37.519
rety partner because it's not white enough, basically, but that
1059
00:52:37.559 --> 00:52:40.280
was pretty basically europe civilization is collapsing because they've got
1060
00:52:40.280 --> 00:52:43.800
too many immigrants. And the interesting thing is like, actually
1061
00:52:43.840 --> 00:52:46.400
the experience in Spain has been quite interesting because they
1062
00:52:46.440 --> 00:52:48.920
take a different approach on all sorts of different things.
1063
00:52:48.880 --> 00:52:52.199
They're actually they're one of the few EU countries that
1064
00:52:52.280 --> 00:52:56.280
it is experiencing like significant economic growth and people.
1065
00:52:56.119 --> 00:52:58.880
Are asking why immigration.
1066
00:52:59.400 --> 00:53:01.480
It's actually like and the acknowledge that in the amnesty
1067
00:53:01.599 --> 00:53:03.599
he said, this is why we're doing it. We're doing
1068
00:53:03.599 --> 00:53:07.000
it because these people will grow our economy over time.
1069
00:53:07.159 --> 00:53:10.159
Yeah, it was very clear about it at Sanchez and.
1070
00:53:09.719 --> 00:53:12.440
And you know, basically what it's done is it's shown
1071
00:53:13.559 --> 00:53:15.559
we're also living in this very bizarre time that basicity
1072
00:53:15.599 --> 00:53:17.679
Europe is like going to be undergoing like like a
1073
00:53:17.679 --> 00:53:21.519
pretty profound demographic crisis in Spain. Is basically said, yeah,
1074
00:53:21.559 --> 00:53:23.320
we are going to go through a demographic crisis. We're
1075
00:53:23.320 --> 00:53:25.440
going to drop some of the racism that stops us
1076
00:53:25.440 --> 00:53:28.599
from actually dealing with us in the pragmatic terms, and
1077
00:53:28.639 --> 00:53:30.639
we are going to have immigrants and we're going to
1078
00:53:30.800 --> 00:53:33.360
empower them and give them the ability to build lives
1079
00:53:33.400 --> 00:53:37.880
and they will generally speaking, knuckle down and they'll work hard,
1080
00:53:37.920 --> 00:53:40.599
and they'll advance the economy. I mean generally speaking, you
1081
00:53:40.639 --> 00:53:45.199
can't have you know this, I do wonder and this
1082
00:53:45.360 --> 00:53:47.119
is a random straight thought that I've had, So let's
1083
00:53:47.159 --> 00:53:49.239
let's throw it out there. That might be just total nonsense,
1084
00:53:49.320 --> 00:53:53.800
right as a like we'd whether like neoliberalism has like
1085
00:53:53.920 --> 00:53:59.000
destroyed the understanding of labor, Like it's like understand like
1086
00:53:59.000 --> 00:54:01.519
it's destroyed the concept of like you don't have economic
1087
00:54:01.559 --> 00:54:04.360
growth up people like fundamentally, Like I was, I was
1088
00:54:04.360 --> 00:54:07.440
thinking about this the other day because John Heally was
1089
00:54:07.480 --> 00:54:12.360
giving a press a press conference and he said, you know,
1090
00:54:12.599 --> 00:54:14.079
in it was to business people and he said, I'm
1091
00:54:14.119 --> 00:54:15.679
so I'm so glad to see you or hear you
1092
00:54:15.719 --> 00:54:17.599
guys are the wealth creators. And I was like, I
1093
00:54:17.679 --> 00:54:19.880
was so furious by that statement. I was like, no,
1094
00:54:20.039 --> 00:54:23.239
they're literally not the wealth creators. And you're the labor party.
1095
00:54:23.719 --> 00:54:25.480
It used to be doctored in the layor party the
1096
00:54:25.519 --> 00:54:28.800
people who create wealth as labor. That's actually who creates wealth.
1097
00:54:29.199 --> 00:54:32.840
And it feels like people have lost sight of that
1098
00:54:32.840 --> 00:54:35.480
that you you do. You know, fundamentally, all economic growth
1099
00:54:35.559 --> 00:54:37.840
is based on human endeavor until such time was replaced
1100
00:54:37.840 --> 00:54:42.239
by robots. And it's a different discussion altogether. But you know,
1101
00:54:43.639 --> 00:54:47.880
we've got this idea that you could grow an economy indefinitely,
1102
00:54:47.920 --> 00:54:50.639
which you probably shouldn't be doing anyway with our people,
1103
00:54:50.840 --> 00:54:52.440
with our young people, the people who are going to
1104
00:54:52.440 --> 00:54:55.360
be working, and we're not having even in the UK,
1105
00:54:55.559 --> 00:54:58.519
like actually serious mature conversations about like, oh, well, if
1106
00:54:58.519 --> 00:55:01.559
we're not creating the conditions for people to be having
1107
00:55:01.559 --> 00:55:05.119
lots of children and we are allowing on immigration, then
1108
00:55:05.159 --> 00:55:08.880
maybe from a working class and from a class aurdarity perspective,
1109
00:55:09.320 --> 00:55:11.320
if you're going to be bringing loads of people to
1110
00:55:11.360 --> 00:55:13.159
work for you, and they're not give them any rights,
1111
00:55:13.159 --> 00:55:15.480
which is basically what shabano moda is doing. You were
1112
00:55:15.519 --> 00:55:18.840
going to be affecting everybody's class position in a negative way.
1113
00:55:19.280 --> 00:55:21.920
What Spain is basically done is, you know, they attacked
1114
00:55:22.159 --> 00:55:25.360
this is all they're running like a las f faire economy,
1115
00:55:25.679 --> 00:55:28.480
you know, allowing amergacy. What they've actually effectively done is
1116
00:55:28.480 --> 00:55:31.079
they've said to a million people, you now have workers' rights,
1117
00:55:31.360 --> 00:55:34.239
You've now been regularized, you now can't be abused by
1118
00:55:34.280 --> 00:55:36.599
your employer. That's actually what their process does. It's not
1119
00:55:36.639 --> 00:55:39.079
actually just about you are not Spanish, it's actually, now
1120
00:55:39.119 --> 00:55:41.440
you have Spanish rights, you have rights under EU law.
1121
00:55:41.719 --> 00:55:43.880
You can't be working sixteen eighteen hours a day and
1122
00:55:43.960 --> 00:55:46.960
undermining the wages of older people here. And that's actually
1123
00:55:47.039 --> 00:55:50.000
the way you bring people onside and immigration debate.
1124
00:55:50.079 --> 00:55:51.079
Yeah, I think that's right.
1125
00:55:51.119 --> 00:55:54.840
It's interesting the thing you say about neilberalism and the
1126
00:55:55.159 --> 00:55:57.800
notion of labor. I've had like a thought recently from
1127
00:55:57.800 --> 00:55:59.960
the other side, which is neoliberalism is also like convinced
1128
00:56:00.039 --> 00:56:02.800
everyone that governments can't do anything anymore. It's like this
1129
00:56:02.840 --> 00:56:04.239
feature of like what I like to call like the
1130
00:56:04.239 --> 00:56:06.079
clapped right. You know, used to think of like the
1131
00:56:06.159 --> 00:56:09.559
right in politics and somehow being like the engine of
1132
00:56:09.599 --> 00:56:12.920
innovation and whatever. And now every right wing person is like,
1133
00:56:12.960 --> 00:56:14.559
you suggest though, maybe we could do this, and they're
1134
00:56:14.599 --> 00:56:17.599
just like, we can't do anything. And really, like any
1135
00:56:17.599 --> 00:56:20.199
corporations can do these things. Companies can do the things,
1136
00:56:20.239 --> 00:56:21.519
but like, we can't do it.
1137
00:56:21.559 --> 00:56:23.679
First of all, corporations can't do most things they're going
1138
00:56:23.719 --> 00:56:26.159
to do. Yeah, but you know, I've had this conversation.
1139
00:56:26.280 --> 00:56:27.599
This is going to be a bit of a weird tangent.
1140
00:56:27.639 --> 00:56:29.320
But have you ever read The Three Body Problem?
1141
00:56:29.480 --> 00:56:29.719
Yes?
1142
00:56:30.000 --> 00:56:33.559
Right, okay, now, very interesting series of books, sci fi books.
1143
00:56:33.639 --> 00:56:35.559
The thing that really struck me about I was like,
1144
00:56:35.559 --> 00:56:36.119
what's it going to be?
1145
00:56:36.159 --> 00:56:36.199
Like?
1146
00:56:36.239 --> 00:56:38.679
I've never actually read like a Chinese novel maybe aby Tannel.
1147
00:56:38.800 --> 00:56:41.079
He really doesn't it, it's like and the thing that
1148
00:56:41.159 --> 00:56:43.679
like is actually the most sci fi aspect of that
1149
00:56:43.840 --> 00:56:46.079
novel is like it goes through all these different phases
1150
00:56:46.079 --> 00:56:49.000
of like human endeavor as it plans for this particular
1151
00:56:50.039 --> 00:56:52.199
there's in engagements of how we're going to deal with aliens,
1152
00:56:52.519 --> 00:56:55.440
and there's multiple different human responses and every human response
1153
00:56:55.559 --> 00:56:58.639
is like, we built amazing underground cities that look like
1154
00:56:58.679 --> 00:56:59.679
trees and leaves.
1155
00:56:59.719 --> 00:57:01.159
And I was like, well, on a.
1156
00:57:01.119 --> 00:57:04.320
Second, where is your belief And it's caerly coming from
1157
00:57:04.400 --> 00:57:05.880
I was like, oh, this is like a Chinese author,
1158
00:57:06.199 --> 00:57:08.440
Chinese perspective. Actually you can do anything, you can do
1159
00:57:08.440 --> 00:57:10.000
any Actually the state is going to build these are
1160
00:57:10.039 --> 00:57:13.039
massive underground cities with leaves and trees and stuff like that.
1161
00:57:14.280 --> 00:57:16.400
And it made me think like there really has been
1162
00:57:16.440 --> 00:57:20.320
the sense and it was a it was a created sense,
1163
00:57:20.360 --> 00:57:22.719
a manufactured sense, and the state is bad at doing stuff,
1164
00:57:23.360 --> 00:57:25.000
you know, and basically.
1165
00:57:24.760 --> 00:57:25.800
You mean it's sometimes bad.
1166
00:57:26.639 --> 00:57:28.440
I mean the famous example there was always used to
1167
00:57:28.679 --> 00:57:32.880
defend your liberalism was the Spanish phone network, the Mexican
1168
00:57:32.880 --> 00:57:35.719
phone network where which is a nationalized phone network, where
1169
00:57:35.719 --> 00:57:37.599
it took you two years to get a phone connection,
1170
00:57:38.320 --> 00:57:40.679
and that was always held up as like this shows
1171
00:57:40.719 --> 00:57:43.960
you why. But like monopolies are bad. Why you know,
1172
00:57:44.079 --> 00:57:46.599
if you have five different phone networks, then you know
1173
00:57:46.639 --> 00:57:49.199
you'll get better services, which might be true for certain
1174
00:57:49.239 --> 00:57:51.440
types of things, it's very much not true. For water,
1175
00:57:52.320 --> 00:57:54.679
it's very much not true for like long term like
1176
00:57:54.760 --> 00:57:58.039
infrastructure development. It's it's certainly not true, for like doing
1177
00:57:58.159 --> 00:58:01.599
anything that might be good for humanity that doesn't necessarily
1178
00:58:01.599 --> 00:58:05.519
turn a profit, like build the internet, right, Like, but
1179
00:58:06.119 --> 00:58:08.480
I think you're right. There is the sense that maybe
1180
00:58:08.519 --> 00:58:11.159
that's why Burnham is so interesting as a character, because
1181
00:58:11.199 --> 00:58:12.719
he thinks the state can do things well. So he's
1182
00:58:12.719 --> 00:58:15.039
the first person who's basically said the computer says yes.
1183
00:58:14.960 --> 00:58:18.159
Yeah, exactly exactly, and like, actually, that's that's right.
1184
00:58:18.320 --> 00:58:22.239
Hates it because they're so sort of you know, convinced
1185
00:58:22.239 --> 00:58:25.599
of the absolute impossibility of anything ever changing.
1186
00:58:25.719 --> 00:58:27.840
But also they will also at the same time this
1187
00:58:27.880 --> 00:58:30.239
is the hypocrisy in like the we're not the hypocrisy,
1188
00:58:30.280 --> 00:58:32.360
but certainly that this juncture of the thinking. So they'll
1189
00:58:32.360 --> 00:58:35.320
also then hank back so and imagine Great Britain, which
1190
00:58:35.360 --> 00:58:37.920
is all about the state, like the things will be
1191
00:58:37.960 --> 00:58:39.800
thinking about it is like our response to World War two,
1192
00:58:39.840 --> 00:58:42.920
or you know, we only we only privatized our defense
1193
00:58:42.960 --> 00:58:45.440
industry in the nineteen eighties, which is a disaster, by
1194
00:58:45.480 --> 00:58:47.440
the way, we should never have done that for sorts
1195
00:58:47.440 --> 00:58:49.920
of different reasons. But like the war was about the
1196
00:58:49.920 --> 00:58:52.199
Second World that's state driven. If the NHS is a
1197
00:58:52.199 --> 00:58:56.400
state in city after World War two, greatest boomer living standards.
1198
00:58:56.880 --> 00:59:00.679
The state basically nationalized like sixty percent of the economy
1199
00:59:00.719 --> 00:59:04.159
and built amazing, amazing, amazing things. I just feel like
1200
00:59:05.400 --> 00:59:08.199
I remember seeing something on I was actually it was
1201
00:59:08.280 --> 00:59:11.840
Rifker Brown Navarro who did that article which that was
1202
00:59:11.880 --> 00:59:16.320
so interesting about finished trains and it went like totally
1203
00:59:16.400 --> 00:59:18.880
vile around the world, and I was like, this is
1204
00:59:18.920 --> 00:59:21.360
what happens with you just the state just spent some
1205
00:59:21.440 --> 00:59:24.840
money on infrastructure, and it was actually speaking to Americans, know,
1206
00:59:25.039 --> 00:59:27.960
like I thought that all trains just had to be
1207
00:59:28.079 --> 00:59:32.039
absolutely awful. Covering like rats looked like a hell escape
1208
00:59:32.679 --> 00:59:34.760
and you know, you basically go into like an underground
1209
00:59:34.760 --> 00:59:38.480
apocalyptic world where you may not emerge, and it's like,
1210
00:59:38.519 --> 00:59:40.079
oh no, you kind actually just build nice things if
1211
00:59:40.119 --> 00:59:41.360
you put some money into it and you have some
1212
00:59:41.840 --> 00:59:42.960
project management skills.
1213
00:59:43.880 --> 00:59:43.960
Right.
1214
00:59:43.960 --> 00:59:45.760
Well, that was all a bit of a tangent, a
1215
00:59:45.760 --> 00:59:48.840
great an interesting one from from from from Christ.
1216
00:59:48.880 --> 00:59:51.199
So let's go on to our our last story.
1217
00:59:52.119 --> 00:59:54.719
Britain's first black woman MP and the mother of the House,
1218
00:59:54.760 --> 00:59:58.000
Dian Abbott, has finally been readmitted to the Labor Party.
1219
00:59:58.239 --> 01:00:00.880
That's after her suspension was lifted by Prime Minister Andy
1220
01:00:00.880 --> 01:00:04.159
Burnham's new Chief Whip, Annalisa Midgeley, following the completion of
1221
01:00:04.199 --> 01:00:08.760
an internal process. So what was Abbot alleged to have done?
1222
01:00:08.920 --> 01:00:11.519
The suspension relates to a letter Abbot published in The
1223
01:00:11.559 --> 01:00:13.960
Observer back in twenty twenty three, in which she claimed
1224
01:00:13.960 --> 01:00:17.480
that Irish people, Jewish people and travelers suffered from prejudice, which,
1225
01:00:17.480 --> 01:00:20.480
while similar to racism, is not in fact racism, which
1226
01:00:20.480 --> 01:00:23.079
she appeared to define as relating only to skin color.
1227
01:00:23.280 --> 01:00:26.079
Those groups, she said quote are not all their lives
1228
01:00:26.159 --> 01:00:29.920
subject to racism. That letter got her into hot water,
1229
01:00:30.039 --> 01:00:32.559
and though Abbott apologized at the time, then leader of
1230
01:00:32.599 --> 01:00:35.760
the party Kirstarma, withdrew the whip. The whip was then
1231
01:00:35.840 --> 01:00:38.440
restored in May twenty twenty four, and just a month
1232
01:00:38.480 --> 01:00:41.159
before the July general election, Abbot was confirmed as the
1233
01:00:41.159 --> 01:00:43.760
party's candidate for her seat in Hackney North, although it
1234
01:00:43.800 --> 01:00:46.119
was very clear to outsiders that the Parliamentary Labour Party
1235
01:00:46.119 --> 01:00:47.840
were doing everything in their power to stop her from
1236
01:00:47.840 --> 01:00:50.760
being that candidate. But in July last year, Abbot appeared
1237
01:00:50.760 --> 01:00:54.119
on Radio four where, according to some she reiterated the
1238
01:00:54.159 --> 01:00:56.599
points she'd made in the letter and will come to
1239
01:00:56.719 --> 01:01:00.400
that radio interview in just a moment. She also posted
1240
01:01:00.440 --> 01:01:03.360
around the same time and quickly deleted, very quickly deleted,
1241
01:01:03.360 --> 01:01:05.239
a tweet in which she called the idea for the
1242
01:01:05.320 --> 01:01:08.880
Jewish defense Forces. Later that month, she was suspended from
1243
01:01:08.880 --> 01:01:11.280
the Labour Party again, with a senior party official telling
1244
01:01:11.320 --> 01:01:14.519
the paper it was unlikely she'd ever be readmitted to
1245
01:01:14.639 --> 01:01:15.159
the party.
1246
01:01:15.719 --> 01:01:17.719
Well how wrong they were.
1247
01:01:18.039 --> 01:01:22.039
In a statement posted online on Thursday, Abbot said this today,
1248
01:01:22.079 --> 01:01:24.440
following a process conducted in line with party rules and
1249
01:01:24.480 --> 01:01:27.159
approved by the independent review Process, I have been readmitted
1250
01:01:27.199 --> 01:01:29.119
to the Labour Party. I've been issued with a formal
1251
01:01:29.159 --> 01:01:32.599
warning for a tweet I previously posted by inadvertently referring
1252
01:01:32.599 --> 01:01:35.239
to the Israeli Defense Force as the Jewish Defense Force.
1253
01:01:35.440 --> 01:01:37.440
I used wording that conflates the actions of the State
1254
01:01:37.480 --> 01:01:40.119
of Israel with the Jewish community. I am deeply sorry
1255
01:01:40.119 --> 01:01:42.920
for any hurt caused by that conflation and apologize for
1256
01:01:42.960 --> 01:01:45.360
any hurt caused by it. I have been and remain
1257
01:01:45.440 --> 01:01:49.079
a lifelong anti racist and remain deeply committed to opposing
1258
01:01:49.159 --> 01:01:53.000
racism in all of its forms. Now you'd think that
1259
01:01:53.039 --> 01:01:55.920
would be that, except on Thursday night, Newsnight dedicated more
1260
01:01:55.960 --> 01:01:59.119
than half the program to Abbot's readmission to the party
1261
01:01:59.320 --> 01:02:02.079
and it began. The show's political editor Nicholas What revealing
1262
01:02:02.119 --> 01:02:04.400
he had a pretty one sided Labor Party contact book.
1263
01:02:05.000 --> 01:02:08.679
I am hearing unease amongst Labor MPs who are supportive
1264
01:02:08.719 --> 01:02:11.039
of the Jewish community. One of them I spoke to
1265
01:02:11.039 --> 01:02:13.599
and they said, oh my God, for God's sake, they
1266
01:02:13.599 --> 01:02:16.880
said to me. They talked about real disappointment. I spoke
1267
01:02:16.920 --> 01:02:19.639
to another Labor MP. They said to me, this is
1268
01:02:19.840 --> 01:02:23.760
absolutely outrageous. They fear that this could be a step backwards,
1269
01:02:24.400 --> 01:02:27.920
and they were particularly uneasy that this has happened during
1270
01:02:27.960 --> 01:02:31.480
the recess, when there's no ability for Labor MPs to
1271
01:02:31.480 --> 01:02:34.360
walk up to their whip immediately and say what is
1272
01:02:34.440 --> 01:02:37.840
going on there? Amongst members of the Jewish labor movement,
1273
01:02:38.400 --> 01:02:41.880
they are supportive and have confidence in Andy Burnham. But
1274
01:02:41.960 --> 01:02:45.159
one said to me they were worried that this could
1275
01:02:45.199 --> 01:02:48.199
provide a pretext for those on the left, those who
1276
01:02:48.239 --> 01:02:51.519
still have admiration for Jeremy Corbyn, that they could say,
1277
01:02:51.599 --> 01:02:55.480
in the words of this person, let's overcome the injustice
1278
01:02:55.480 --> 01:02:57.559
that was done to people who were removed from the
1279
01:02:57.599 --> 01:03:01.159
Labor Party over allegations of anti't worried about that. I
1280
01:03:01.280 --> 01:03:03.920
was speaking to Dame Louise Elman, of course, her formerly
1281
01:03:03.960 --> 01:03:06.960
prominent Labor MP who left the Labour Party over the
1282
01:03:06.960 --> 01:03:11.400
anti antisemitism allegations and then came back at the invitation
1283
01:03:11.800 --> 01:03:15.360
of Keir Starmer. She was slightly concerned by the wording
1284
01:03:15.400 --> 01:03:18.639
of dian Abbot's statement today. So the adverse finding against
1285
01:03:18.639 --> 01:03:21.559
Diana Abbot which led her to apologize was a tweet
1286
01:03:21.599 --> 01:03:24.679
a year ago in which she described the Israeli Defense
1287
01:03:24.760 --> 01:03:28.519
Forces as the Jewish Defense Forces. She apologized for that
1288
01:03:28.519 --> 01:03:30.559
because there was an adverse finding on that. And then
1289
01:03:30.559 --> 01:03:33.360
this is what Dian Abbot said, I am deeply sorry
1290
01:03:33.400 --> 01:03:37.559
for any hurt caused by that conflation and apologized for
1291
01:03:37.840 --> 01:03:39.719
any hurt caused by and it was used of the
1292
01:03:39.760 --> 01:03:43.119
word any that Louise Elman picked up on, and Louise Elman,
1293
01:03:43.119 --> 01:03:45.239
this is what she said to me. There have been
1294
01:03:45.239 --> 01:03:48.800
a succession of unfortunate errors in relations to Diane's perception
1295
01:03:48.880 --> 01:03:52.239
of Jewish people. I'm not sure whether she understands the
1296
01:03:52.280 --> 01:03:55.559
mistake she's made, or whether she has found a form
1297
01:03:55.559 --> 01:03:58.679
of words to allow the whip to be restored.
1298
01:04:00.000 --> 01:04:02.280
I guess the implication of that is that the use
1299
01:04:02.320 --> 01:04:06.639
of the any suggests somehow that Abbot doesn't really mean
1300
01:04:06.719 --> 01:04:09.760
it and has just found a kind of formalistic form
1301
01:04:09.800 --> 01:04:11.760
of words which allow allows it to be resorted. I mean,
1302
01:04:11.760 --> 01:04:13.960
I'm not really sure how you can, you know, infer
1303
01:04:14.039 --> 01:04:16.159
that from from the apology.
1304
01:04:16.199 --> 01:04:17.519
It's just the use of the word any her.
1305
01:04:17.519 --> 01:04:19.360
I would also say any of her if I was
1306
01:04:19.400 --> 01:04:22.480
apologizing to somebody. I don't didn't really understand that that
1307
01:04:22.599 --> 01:04:23.199
inference there.
1308
01:04:23.360 --> 01:04:24.400
But what we do know is that.
1309
01:04:24.320 --> 01:04:27.639
Abbot wasn't required to apologize over the remarks she made
1310
01:04:27.679 --> 01:04:31.920
on Radio four about racism, so that was followed when
1311
01:04:31.960 --> 01:04:36.119
she had the whip restored after the original suspension over
1312
01:04:36.159 --> 01:04:38.760
the Observer article. She then a little while later went
1313
01:04:38.800 --> 01:04:40.360
on the radio and made some remarks that we're going
1314
01:04:40.400 --> 01:04:42.840
to come to and she those remarks haven't been any
1315
01:04:43.039 --> 01:04:45.280
that she doesn't seem to have had to apologize for
1316
01:04:45.360 --> 01:04:47.119
those they don't seem to have that doesn't seem to
1317
01:04:47.119 --> 01:04:49.880
be have been a finding about about those remarks on
1318
01:04:49.920 --> 01:04:53.400
the radio program. This was now Phil Rosenberg, president of
1319
01:04:53.480 --> 01:04:56.039
the Board of Jewish Deputies, giving his take.
1320
01:04:56.559 --> 01:04:59.559
Well, I'm very sad and very concerned. I'm sad because
1321
01:04:59.599 --> 01:05:02.480
in many way Dyanabbot is an icon, you know, the
1322
01:05:02.559 --> 01:05:05.199
longest serving female and p the first black female MP
1323
01:05:05.559 --> 01:05:07.840
out of the House, another of the House, and so
1324
01:05:08.159 --> 01:05:10.960
you'd hope that we would find common cause in fighting
1325
01:05:11.079 --> 01:05:14.280
racism in all its different guises. But over and over
1326
01:05:14.320 --> 01:05:17.360
again she's making these statements that are offensive to the
1327
01:05:17.440 --> 01:05:20.800
Jewish community at a time when there is heightened an Semitism,
1328
01:05:20.840 --> 01:05:23.840
deadly anti semitism as we saw at Heaton Park, and
1329
01:05:23.960 --> 01:05:26.639
just completely full statements. You know, when the Nazis developed
1330
01:05:26.639 --> 01:05:30.159
their racial prejudice laws, they were basing them on discrimination
1331
01:05:30.320 --> 01:05:34.199
against African American people under the Jim Crow laws. There
1332
01:05:34.239 --> 01:05:37.440
is Jews and black people should be fighting racism together.
1333
01:05:37.480 --> 01:05:41.199
And unfortunately Dynabber over and over again makes these comments,
1334
01:05:41.239 --> 01:05:43.679
then doubles down on them, and just once again she's
1335
01:05:43.679 --> 01:05:45.519
apologized for the thing, and well she didn't.
1336
01:05:45.280 --> 01:05:47.559
Double down this time. She actually apologized for the tweet.
1337
01:05:47.280 --> 01:05:49.599
Which she apologized, but not for the original thing that
1338
01:05:49.639 --> 01:05:53.440
she had double down for. Right, And I'm just really
1339
01:05:53.480 --> 01:05:56.559
sad and I'm concerned because, as you were implying, we've
1340
01:05:56.559 --> 01:05:58.960
seen this movie before and it doesn't end well for
1341
01:05:59.000 --> 01:06:00.880
the Jewish community. And it does and well, for Labor.
1342
01:06:02.920 --> 01:06:05.360
So that was a reference to Abbot apparently doubling down
1343
01:06:05.440 --> 01:06:08.719
on her comments about her original comments in The Observer
1344
01:06:08.840 --> 01:06:12.280
about racism in that later Radio four interview that also
1345
01:06:12.320 --> 01:06:14.800
became the subject of a heated exchange between News Nights
1346
01:06:14.840 --> 01:06:18.119
presenter Adam Fleming and Labor mp BE Robero adding.
1347
01:06:20.480 --> 01:06:23.920
Something that was said earlier that was wrong talking about
1348
01:06:23.920 --> 01:06:27.400
the interview that she did say that. Diane said in
1349
01:06:27.480 --> 01:06:30.840
the interview that she had done nothing wrong. I think
1350
01:06:31.320 --> 01:06:34.519
this is where some of the issues arise, where sometimes
1351
01:06:35.239 --> 01:06:37.440
you know, the wrong sense is taken out of what
1352
01:06:38.000 --> 01:06:41.280
Diana had said. She didn't say that, and she actually
1353
01:06:41.480 --> 01:06:44.480
reiterated her She said she stood by her apology that
1354
01:06:44.559 --> 01:06:47.599
she made regarding the Observer letter in that same interview.
1355
01:06:47.639 --> 01:06:49.920
So it's very strange that it was reported in that
1356
01:06:49.960 --> 01:06:51.840
way and that you reported it that way today.
1357
01:06:51.840 --> 01:06:54.119
We no just so people are clear. If you go
1358
01:06:54.199 --> 01:06:56.400
back and listen to the GYM Knotty program, which was
1359
01:06:56.440 --> 01:06:59.239
broadcast on Radio four last year, he says to Diane Abbott,
1360
01:06:59.599 --> 01:07:02.119
do you regrets what you said in that letter? And
1361
01:07:02.199 --> 01:07:04.119
she said no, and that is what led to her
1362
01:07:04.159 --> 01:07:05.519
being suspended this latest time.
1363
01:07:05.760 --> 01:07:08.239
The thing is, I think you actually have to listen
1364
01:07:08.280 --> 01:07:12.119
to the whole interview because she I think the way
1365
01:07:12.199 --> 01:07:14.559
in which it was clipped following her saying no, she
1366
01:07:15.159 --> 01:07:18.079
was referring to what he had asked her before whether
1367
01:07:18.199 --> 01:07:20.599
or not she was clear on the fact that people
1368
01:07:20.760 --> 01:07:25.519
experienced racism differently. She also said that she stands by
1369
01:07:25.559 --> 01:07:30.280
the apology that she gave after after having written after
1370
01:07:30.320 --> 01:07:32.480
having written the letter, So I think you have to
1371
01:07:32.519 --> 01:07:36.599
listen to it in its full context and regardless of
1372
01:07:37.440 --> 01:07:40.280
trying to pick at these particular things. Diane has been
1373
01:07:40.360 --> 01:07:44.639
very clear about where she's offending somebody, of offending a
1374
01:07:44.679 --> 01:07:48.599
group of people, being apologetic of it and understanding what
1375
01:07:48.639 --> 01:07:52.079
has gone wrong. And everybody knows that Dan is someone
1376
01:07:52.119 --> 01:07:55.960
who's challenged all forms of racism.
1377
01:07:56.320 --> 01:07:59.760
That exchange continued, But Belle, we're not picking at these
1378
01:07:59.800 --> 01:08:02.880
things in your words, We're reflecting genuine concerns.
1379
01:08:03.320 --> 01:08:07.360
That particular interview. I'm saying, if you wanted to refer
1380
01:08:07.440 --> 01:08:10.320
to anything else that has been said, which I might,
1381
01:08:10.400 --> 01:08:13.480
I must note she's gone and apologized for I would
1382
01:08:13.519 --> 01:08:16.079
like to say, if you listen to the interview properly
1383
01:08:16.079 --> 01:08:19.279
as many people have, what people inferred from it and
1384
01:08:19.279 --> 01:08:22.600
what was reported from it was not entirely accurate. That
1385
01:08:22.680 --> 01:08:25.560
is all I'm saying. And Diana's been very very clear
1386
01:08:25.600 --> 01:08:28.640
about her apology, her initial apology and the apology that
1387
01:08:28.680 --> 01:08:31.479
she's reiterated today. She's very pleased to be back in
1388
01:08:31.520 --> 01:08:33.359
the Labor Party now. I think you'll find that many
1389
01:08:33.439 --> 01:08:36.439
people are pleased that she is. Also, thirty five thousand
1390
01:08:36.439 --> 01:08:40.039
people signed a petition saying that she should be reinstated,
1391
01:08:40.079 --> 01:08:41.680
and I think that's an important thing to note.
1392
01:08:41.760 --> 01:08:43.960
Bell just before you interrupted me, which is the wrong
1393
01:08:44.000 --> 01:08:45.520
way around for these things to work. I think in
1394
01:08:45.600 --> 01:08:47.359
TV and news, I was going to say, we're not
1395
01:08:47.439 --> 01:08:50.000
just picking at things she said in interviews and fixating
1396
01:08:50.000 --> 01:08:53.800
on them. Nick has been reflecting back genuine concern from
1397
01:08:54.000 --> 01:08:55.399
your colleagues in labor.
1398
01:08:57.720 --> 01:08:59.920
I'm making a point about specific Yes to the point
1399
01:09:00.079 --> 01:09:03.239
I'm making that. I'm making your point specifically about what
1400
01:09:03.319 --> 01:09:04.119
you have said.
1401
01:09:04.600 --> 01:09:05.439
And you made that point.
1402
01:09:05.560 --> 01:09:07.560
I'm asking you to make a different point about your
1403
01:09:07.640 --> 01:09:09.520
colleagues tonight and how they're feeling about this.
1404
01:09:10.039 --> 01:09:12.960
I have no issue with my colleagues having concerns, and
1405
01:09:13.000 --> 01:09:14.000
I think it's right for them.
1406
01:09:13.920 --> 01:09:14.520
To express it.
1407
01:09:15.199 --> 01:09:17.640
I know I was talking about your point let's be
1408
01:09:17.760 --> 01:09:20.000
very very clear, I was talking about what you said
1409
01:09:20.039 --> 01:09:23.640
in regards to the interview. Correct, yes, no, no, But
1410
01:09:23.800 --> 01:09:26.000
it's important to make that to make to make a
1411
01:09:26.039 --> 01:09:29.079
proper statement when you're when you're reflecting back on something
1412
01:09:29.119 --> 01:09:31.479
that someone has said. So to now try and say
1413
01:09:31.479 --> 01:09:34.640
that I have said that an entire communities issues should
1414
01:09:34.880 --> 01:09:39.119
or members of my colleagues should be my colleagues issues
1415
01:09:39.159 --> 01:09:42.520
shouldn't be of any concern. That is also not something.
1416
01:09:42.279 --> 01:09:43.920
I'm giving you. I'm giving you a chance.
1417
01:09:45.920 --> 01:09:49.479
So I actually don't agree with rivera ADDIE's take on
1418
01:09:49.520 --> 01:09:50.920
the interview, which we're going to listen to in a minute,
1419
01:09:50.920 --> 01:09:52.399
But I do think she was like super sharp to
1420
01:09:52.439 --> 01:09:55.359
catch that slide that was being made between her sort
1421
01:09:55.359 --> 01:09:58.439
of arguing about the meaning of the interview and the
1422
01:09:59.720 --> 01:10:01.960
inter if you were sort of then making it sound
1423
01:10:02.000 --> 01:10:05.720
as though perhaps she was also dismissing concerns of MPs
1424
01:10:05.720 --> 01:10:06.600
and the Jewish community.
1425
01:10:06.600 --> 01:10:08.279
I think that was a very sharp catch there.
1426
01:10:08.960 --> 01:10:11.439
But look, let's have a listen to the twenty twenty
1427
01:10:11.439 --> 01:10:13.640
five interview and see if Abbott really did double down
1428
01:10:13.680 --> 01:10:14.520
on the Observer letter.
1429
01:10:15.560 --> 01:10:18.880
You got into terrible trouble for a letter you wrote
1430
01:10:18.920 --> 01:10:24.319
to the Observer about racism, and you appeared to suggest,
1431
01:10:24.359 --> 01:10:26.920
in the view of some of your critics anyway, that
1432
01:10:27.560 --> 01:10:31.600
the kind of anti semitism that the Jewish community suffered,
1433
01:10:31.720 --> 01:10:35.560
or traveler suffered, or Irish people suffered, was somehow different
1434
01:10:36.079 --> 01:10:38.800
from the racism that you, as a young black person
1435
01:10:38.880 --> 01:10:42.640
had suffered. You were suspended and there was a great hookah.
1436
01:10:42.880 --> 01:10:45.119
Do you look back on that with regret?
1437
01:10:45.439 --> 01:10:50.239
No, not at all. Clearly, there must be a difference
1438
01:10:51.039 --> 01:10:56.600
between racism which is about color, and other types of racism.
1439
01:10:56.680 --> 01:11:03.680
Because you can see traveler Jewish person walking down the
1440
01:11:03.720 --> 01:11:08.079
street you don't know, You don't know unless you stop
1441
01:11:08.159 --> 01:11:10.600
to speak to or or you're in a meeting with them.
1442
01:11:10.920 --> 01:11:13.479
But if you see a black person walking down the street,
1443
01:11:13.680 --> 01:11:17.880
you see straight away that they're black. There are different types.
1444
01:11:17.640 --> 01:11:20.399
Of racism, but the effect is the same. If you
1445
01:11:20.560 --> 01:11:23.960
are going to a synagogue on a Saturday morning and
1446
01:11:24.000 --> 01:11:27.880
you have to have guards outside because some people might
1447
01:11:27.880 --> 01:11:30.479
come along and want to insult you or even throw
1448
01:11:30.560 --> 01:11:33.680
things at you, that's pretty much the same as the
1449
01:11:33.760 --> 01:11:35.960
kind of thing you describe in your book as happening
1450
01:11:36.039 --> 01:11:38.159
to you as a black person. The fact is one
1451
01:11:38.279 --> 01:11:39.840
is a person of color, and one isn't. It's neither
1452
01:11:39.880 --> 01:11:42.279
here nor there. If you suffer it, it's still damaging.
1453
01:11:42.279 --> 01:11:47.359
It is here because you can spot that person of
1454
01:11:47.439 --> 01:11:50.119
color from one hundreds of yards away.
1455
01:11:50.199 --> 01:11:52.439
That is what is different. You will do the thing
1456
01:11:52.520 --> 01:11:52.920
you said.
1457
01:11:53.039 --> 01:11:56.359
Look, if this is misunderstood as you thought it was,
1458
01:11:57.199 --> 01:12:00.720
then I apologize for it. But from the you don't
1459
01:12:00.720 --> 01:12:04.159
believe you did anything wrong, or you didn't attempt to
1460
01:12:04.199 --> 01:12:05.960
say something that you didn't believe.
1461
01:12:07.000 --> 01:12:13.720
I just think that it's silly to try and claim
1462
01:12:14.159 --> 01:12:21.399
that racism, which is about skin color, is the same
1463
01:12:21.439 --> 01:12:25.000
as other types of racism. I just I don't know
1464
01:12:25.039 --> 01:12:26.159
why people would say.
1465
01:12:26.000 --> 01:12:31.760
That, but you would, I assume, condemn anti Semitic behavior
1466
01:12:31.840 --> 01:12:35.000
in the same way that you would condemn racist behavior
1467
01:12:35.079 --> 01:12:37.439
against someone simply because of the color of the skin.
1468
01:12:37.640 --> 01:12:40.760
Well, of course, and I do get a bit weary
1469
01:12:40.920 --> 01:12:46.079
of people trying to pin the anti Semitic label on me,
1470
01:12:46.319 --> 01:12:51.520
because I've spent a lifetime fighting racism of all kinds,
1471
01:12:51.520 --> 01:12:54.560
and in particular fighting anti Sempittism, partly because the nature
1472
01:12:54.560 --> 01:12:56.119
of my constituency.
1473
01:12:56.960 --> 01:13:00.319
So I think it's like it's fairly subtle, was not
1474
01:13:00.319 --> 01:13:02.600
actually even subtle at all. Actually, she said one thing
1475
01:13:02.640 --> 01:13:07.199
in the Observer article, which was that racism was one
1476
01:13:07.239 --> 01:13:09.760
thing and prejudice was a different thing, and they could
1477
01:13:09.800 --> 01:13:13.520
were easily mistaken for one each other, but for one another.
1478
01:13:13.560 --> 01:13:17.000
But you know, Jewish people, travelers, the Irish don't experience
1479
01:13:17.079 --> 01:13:19.720
racism and experienced prejudice. And she also compared it to
1480
01:13:19.760 --> 01:13:21.800
like the experience, you know, she'd use redheads as an
1481
01:13:21.800 --> 01:13:25.279
example of experiencing prejudice. That was a mistake here in
1482
01:13:25.319 --> 01:13:27.319
this interview. She's not actually saying any of that. She's
1483
01:13:27.399 --> 01:13:30.920
just saying that actually there are differences in the way
1484
01:13:31.000 --> 01:13:35.039
that that that racism is enacted and and experienced, and
1485
01:13:35.079 --> 01:13:39.920
that some people some some racism, you know, is a
1486
01:13:39.960 --> 01:13:43.600
result of directly the way that that's that some somebody
1487
01:13:43.640 --> 01:13:46.960
looks and and and On LBC, coler Barry rang into
1488
01:13:46.960 --> 01:13:49.319
the studio to give pretty much that take.
1489
01:13:49.159 --> 01:13:50.159
On the on the Abbot case.
1490
01:13:52.439 --> 01:13:55.199
People didn't hear the words she said, partly because she's
1491
01:13:55.239 --> 01:13:59.119
a black woman, so they dismissed her. So they refused
1492
01:13:59.159 --> 01:14:01.800
to hear the fact that she said that other people
1493
01:14:01.840 --> 01:14:04.560
face prejudice. They do face prejudice. It doesn't mean that
1494
01:14:04.600 --> 01:14:08.079
it's worse or better. It just means that it is.
1495
01:14:08.680 --> 01:14:10.880
And I'm a black man, and when I walk down
1496
01:14:10.880 --> 01:14:14.159
the street, doesn't matter that I'm almost fifty years old.
1497
01:14:14.439 --> 01:14:17.199
People will still cross the road. They will still cross
1498
01:14:17.199 --> 01:14:19.319
the road, they will still grab their handbags. I asked
1499
01:14:19.319 --> 01:14:22.520
the question, are they being careful or are they being prejudiced.
1500
01:14:22.560 --> 01:14:26.880
I've heard MPs say that they don't like black and
1501
01:14:26.920 --> 01:14:29.560
brown faces on TV too many on adverts. There were
1502
01:14:29.640 --> 01:14:31.760
some outrage, but you know what, there wasn't the same
1503
01:14:31.800 --> 01:14:35.319
clamor they don't go on about it. They'ved she's okay,
1504
01:14:35.359 --> 01:14:40.199
now she's still an MB. My racism is literally on
1505
01:14:40.239 --> 01:14:43.560
my skin. Yeah, yours, Yes, you might use Yes, people
1506
01:14:43.560 --> 01:14:47.039
are treated differently for other reasons, but mine is superficient.
1507
01:14:50.159 --> 01:14:54.439
Paul, I'm not surprised that Abbott wasn't They didn't find
1508
01:14:54.479 --> 01:14:57.239
anything wrong with what she said on the radio because
1509
01:14:57.319 --> 01:14:59.560
I think what she said on the radio was completely
1510
01:14:59.560 --> 01:15:02.840
true and it was different from the clumsily phrased thing
1511
01:15:03.680 --> 01:15:07.000
and potentially false thing that she said in the Observer.
1512
01:15:07.399 --> 01:15:12.520
I think that, you know, it's it seems, as she said,
1513
01:15:12.680 --> 01:15:15.319
fairly obvious that there are different types of racisms which
1514
01:15:15.359 --> 01:15:18.920
are just responses to different features of people. All of
1515
01:15:18.920 --> 01:15:21.840
them are racism, but they have their experience differently and
1516
01:15:21.880 --> 01:15:25.600
they are triggered differently. And I'm glad to have her
1517
01:15:25.640 --> 01:15:27.119
back in the party, in the Labor Party.
1518
01:15:27.119 --> 01:15:30.119
What do you think about this, this whole thing is
1519
01:15:30.119 --> 01:15:32.439
is you know it possibly off so much to be
1520
01:15:32.439 --> 01:15:35.319
honest and use my language, like watching all this again happening,
1521
01:15:35.520 --> 01:15:38.359
it's like the most bad faith interpretation of what dan
1522
01:15:38.359 --> 01:15:40.079
Abbott was trying to say and it's been trying to
1523
01:15:40.079 --> 01:15:43.039
say for a very long time, which is an incredibly simple, straightforward,
1524
01:15:43.279 --> 01:15:48.199
really uncontroversial point, really uncontroversial point pretty much anywhere in
1525
01:15:48.239 --> 01:15:50.960
the world outside of like the hermetically sealed nonsense of
1526
01:15:50.960 --> 01:15:55.000
the Labor Party, where like these issues become just storted
1527
01:15:55.039 --> 01:15:58.479
beyond any sort of reasonable interpretation, and you know, it's
1528
01:15:58.479 --> 01:16:01.720
filtering into a political process so toxified this discourse, you
1529
01:16:01.720 --> 01:16:04.199
can't have a serious conversation. So I think, you know,
1530
01:16:04.279 --> 01:16:05.960
first the first things first we have to do is
1531
01:16:06.000 --> 01:16:08.880
like straighten ow what happened. She sent the letter to
1532
01:16:08.960 --> 01:16:12.960
the Observer, where she was trying to make the point
1533
01:16:13.039 --> 01:16:15.319
that there are differences in the ways the prejudice express
1534
01:16:15.680 --> 01:16:18.600
depending on the axis on which the prejudice happens. So
1535
01:16:18.800 --> 01:16:21.079
if you're a black person, it's on your skin, people
1536
01:16:21.239 --> 01:16:24.079
respond to you. If you're Jewish, you might not be
1537
01:16:24.600 --> 01:16:27.039
visibly Jewish. You might not be unless you were in
1538
01:16:27.039 --> 01:16:29.960
a kipper, so you might be able to you might
1539
01:16:30.039 --> 01:16:31.800
you know, you won't experience racism in the same way.
1540
01:16:31.960 --> 01:16:35.279
That's totally uncontroversial thing to say that different types of
1541
01:16:35.279 --> 01:16:38.399
prejudice express themselves differently, just in the same way that
1542
01:16:38.520 --> 01:16:41.479
anti black racism, the types of stereotypes that will be
1543
01:16:41.520 --> 01:16:44.119
associated with blackness is different to the type of sterious
1544
01:16:44.119 --> 01:16:46.199
types that will be associated with people who are Jewish
1545
01:16:46.319 --> 01:16:49.039
and who are Muslim, because they're all culturally determined by
1546
01:16:49.039 --> 01:16:53.119
different historical processes. You know, black people, you know gray
1547
01:16:53.199 --> 01:16:56.119
up in South Africa and a party like the racism
1548
01:16:56.119 --> 01:16:58.880
towards black people is that they're thick, that they are smelly,
1549
01:16:58.960 --> 01:17:02.720
that they are a different, that they're animalistic. The type
1550
01:17:02.720 --> 01:17:04.880
of prejudice that's shown towards Jewish people is that they
1551
01:17:04.920 --> 01:17:07.279
are too smart for their own good, that they are
1552
01:17:07.960 --> 01:17:11.640
malevolent operators because their loan sharks, their shylocks that are
1553
01:17:12.479 --> 01:17:16.279
and Muslims, you know, now, the culturally created prejudice around
1554
01:17:16.319 --> 01:17:19.520
them is that they you know that the Islam is
1555
01:17:19.520 --> 01:17:22.960
a fundamentally vinyl religion. These people will deep down, regardless
1556
01:17:22.960 --> 01:17:25.439
of what country they live and actually have a Muslim
1557
01:17:25.520 --> 01:17:27.680
gene that makes them under do Sharia law every area.
1558
01:17:27.880 --> 01:17:30.960
Like Obviously, different types of prejudice expressed differently, because all
1559
01:17:31.000 --> 01:17:34.439
prejudice is socially constructed, and it's socially constructed at different
1560
01:17:34.439 --> 01:17:37.680
times by different people for different reasons, usually economic domination.
1561
01:17:37.800 --> 01:17:42.439
That's the key thing, right, So Dianahbud's first edited Observer
1562
01:17:42.720 --> 01:17:47.560
is plainly clumsily written. She clearly says something that underplays
1563
01:17:47.600 --> 01:17:50.079
the extent and consequence of anti Jewish presidents.
1564
01:17:50.079 --> 01:17:51.800
Obviously, the Redhead's thing was crazy.
1565
01:17:51.920 --> 01:17:54.800
Obviously I think she immediately apologizes for her right and
1566
01:17:54.840 --> 01:17:56.960
she says, I'm really sorry. This was a drafting error.
1567
01:17:57.359 --> 01:17:59.039
I sent her a Drafters that was wrong. I was
1568
01:17:59.079 --> 01:18:01.359
dealing with my staff member a ment to sense her
1569
01:18:01.359 --> 01:18:03.439
a lated draft where you corrected it and the wrong
1570
01:18:03.479 --> 01:18:03.960
one got in.
1571
01:18:04.039 --> 01:18:04.920
Of course, the question.
1572
01:18:04.760 --> 01:18:07.760
Perhaps like why dubserver and said they knew didn't reflect
1573
01:18:07.760 --> 01:18:11.039
the views that it's a different discussion. But she immediately apologized, right,
1574
01:18:11.439 --> 01:18:13.920
and in that moment the key issue was well, how
1575
01:18:13.920 --> 01:18:16.079
do you deal with an apology from Dynabod versus somebody
1576
01:18:16.079 --> 01:18:18.359
like Steve ree Because Steve Reid made incredibly clumsy comments
1577
01:18:18.359 --> 01:18:21.840
about Jewish businessman and he was immediately absolved. You know,
1578
01:18:21.880 --> 01:18:23.760
he was like, it's fine, you know you made a mistake.
1579
01:18:24.000 --> 01:18:27.399
We are going to you know, part of what drives
1580
01:18:27.399 --> 01:18:30.199
so much British politics is basically who gets the benefit
1581
01:18:30.239 --> 01:18:33.399
of the doubt in a situation like this. Steve Reid
1582
01:18:33.399 --> 01:18:36.079
immediately got the benefit of the dart, Dynabo didn't, and
1583
01:18:36.159 --> 01:18:38.000
dynabin't given the benefit dot for all sorts of reasons,
1584
01:18:38.039 --> 01:18:40.640
not least racism, but also at least because the people
1585
01:18:40.680 --> 01:18:42.239
who didn't want to give the benefit of the dart
1586
01:18:42.319 --> 01:18:44.159
were the same people who make the decision about whether
1587
01:18:44.199 --> 01:18:48.720
she suspends it or not. Right now that happens, they
1588
01:18:48.760 --> 01:18:51.720
take a year to investigate a letter which is apologized for,
1589
01:18:51.800 --> 01:18:54.880
which is an absurdity, and it's plainly designed to humiliate her.
1590
01:18:55.119 --> 01:18:56.159
There's simply no.
1591
01:18:56.039 --> 01:18:58.119
Reason for it to take a year to investigator, and
1592
01:18:58.119 --> 01:19:00.720
they're clear her and they lie about her heatedly in
1593
01:19:00.760 --> 01:19:03.479
that year that Kirstarmer gives an interview where he says,
1594
01:19:03.920 --> 01:19:05.439
you know, one of the first things I did when
1595
01:19:05.439 --> 01:19:07.359
I came in as leaders is I didn't get involved
1596
01:19:07.359 --> 01:19:10.239
in this. She's going, you know, this is an independent process.
1597
01:19:10.439 --> 01:19:12.439
You know, I have no role on this. By the
1598
01:19:12.479 --> 01:19:14.880
time she had an interview, she'd already been cleared by
1599
01:19:14.880 --> 01:19:17.159
the party of wrongby she'd gone through a process. All
1600
01:19:17.199 --> 01:19:18.960
that happened was for the whip to be restored. They're
1601
01:19:19.000 --> 01:19:21.560
repeatedly lied about it. Then we had the Frankester situation
1602
01:19:21.960 --> 01:19:24.119
where she's racially you know, there's a horrible thing that
1603
01:19:24.199 --> 01:19:27.239
Frank Kester says, there's there's a discussion in parliament, she's
1604
01:19:27.279 --> 01:19:28.520
the only person not called.
1605
01:19:28.399 --> 01:19:31.560
To give a discussion about it. Really treats her abominably.
1606
01:19:31.119 --> 01:19:33.199
Right, And then he makes a big show of sort
1607
01:19:33.199 --> 01:19:35.159
of going over it, right yeah, And she.
1608
01:19:35.039 --> 01:19:37.079
Says, and there's a conversation. He says that anything I can,
1609
01:19:37.239 --> 01:19:39.800
She's like, give you the godamn whip back. And basically
1610
01:19:39.840 --> 01:19:42.720
she has to fight tooth and nail, im mobilize like
1611
01:19:43.399 --> 01:19:47.199
a large left in constituency predominantly blackened her constituency to
1612
01:19:47.239 --> 01:19:49.119
make sure she can actually just stand as the MP.
1613
01:19:49.359 --> 01:19:51.920
And she wins that battle. Then she gives us interview
1614
01:19:52.000 --> 01:19:55.319
to the BBC, where plainly what she's saying is I
1615
01:19:55.399 --> 01:19:57.479
stand by the original point that I was making, which
1616
01:19:57.520 --> 01:20:00.479
is entirely uncontroversial. It's so obvious that's what she Yeah,
1617
01:20:00.520 --> 01:20:02.640
it's so obvious what she's saying is that I don't
1618
01:20:02.840 --> 01:20:04.800
you know, she's not saying, oh, I actually meant the
1619
01:20:04.880 --> 01:20:08.159
originally worded She's saying. The point that I'm trying to
1620
01:20:08.159 --> 01:20:10.720
make is that different types of racism and prejudice express themselves,
1621
01:20:10.760 --> 01:20:13.319
which is why I find for rosenbooks coming so discussed
1622
01:20:13.319 --> 01:20:15.840
and really pisses me off this idea that she's not
1623
01:20:15.880 --> 01:20:18.960
actually standing in solidarity to Jewish people by saying, actually,
1624
01:20:19.000 --> 01:20:20.880
we should be sensitive to the unique ways in which
1625
01:20:20.920 --> 01:20:24.239
anti semitism, anti black racism exploss is fundamentally showing your
1626
01:20:24.279 --> 01:20:26.920
sensitive to the issue of anti semitism, like it pisses
1627
01:20:26.960 --> 01:20:29.840
me off that he's even using that moment to imply,
1628
01:20:30.079 --> 01:20:32.640
as far as I can understand, that he's saying that
1629
01:20:32.680 --> 01:20:35.880
she's actually drawing some sort of negative distinction between the
1630
01:20:35.880 --> 01:20:37.800
black and the Jewish community, and she's trying to draw
1631
01:20:37.920 --> 01:20:40.199
where she's not. She's saying, needs are different experiences, and
1632
01:20:40.279 --> 01:20:43.119
we can have a conversation about that right, the other
1633
01:20:43.119 --> 01:20:44.520
thing that drives me mad, and I've got a lot
1634
01:20:44.520 --> 01:20:45.840
of things to get off my chest. Yeah, if you
1635
01:20:45.880 --> 01:20:49.479
can tell for it, I'm on a roll the thing
1636
01:20:49.479 --> 01:20:51.239
that pisses me off about Newsnight so much. And I
1637
01:20:51.239 --> 01:20:53.640
put this on Twitter today because and I've I've been
1638
01:20:53.720 --> 01:20:54.920
trying to take a bit of a Twitter.
1639
01:20:54.760 --> 01:20:56.079
Holiday for the last couple of days.
1640
01:20:56.840 --> 01:20:59.319
But before the book came out, the first big story
1641
01:20:59.319 --> 01:21:01.239
that I wanted to really a poor Openden, A poor
1642
01:21:01.279 --> 01:21:03.640
Ovenden was at the time the book came about the
1643
01:21:03.680 --> 01:21:06.600
chief of the head of Strategy at Number ten. He'd
1644
01:21:06.600 --> 01:21:08.359
being in the Labor Comm's department for a long time,
1645
01:21:08.359 --> 01:21:11.159
and I had these messages from twenty fourteen twenty fifteen
1646
01:21:11.439 --> 01:21:14.600
where he's saying utterly despicable things about dyna Abbot. He's
1647
01:21:14.600 --> 01:21:18.560
recounting he's telling another female staff for white female staffer
1648
01:21:18.680 --> 01:21:22.880
in this conversation, recounting basically getting drunk while other stuff
1649
01:21:22.880 --> 01:21:26.319
as the night before then having a game of you know,
1650
01:21:26.960 --> 01:21:30.159
sex Mary kill about Dynabot and then make me sexualized
1651
01:21:30.159 --> 01:21:30.840
comments about it.
1652
01:21:30.880 --> 01:21:32.199
Really quite disgusting stuff.
1653
01:21:32.720 --> 01:21:34.880
This stuff is plainly in the public interest, right, and
1654
01:21:34.920 --> 01:21:36.560
we know it's the public interest because when I took
1655
01:21:36.560 --> 01:21:39.520
it to a proper news outlet, they actually published it
1656
01:21:39.560 --> 01:21:40.720
and immediately he resigned.
1657
01:21:40.760 --> 01:21:41.000
Yeah.
1658
01:21:41.119 --> 01:21:43.199
Right, And the reason it's in the public interest because
1659
01:21:43.239 --> 01:21:45.119
you can't have somebody who's their head of strategy saying
1660
01:21:45.119 --> 01:21:48.600
these things about black people and about Dyne Abert. Right now,
1661
01:21:48.720 --> 01:21:51.239
the first people I took that story to was Newsnight.
1662
01:21:52.880 --> 01:21:54.279
You know, I took the story to them, I think
1663
01:21:54.279 --> 01:21:57.520
it was in August last year, and for six weeks
1664
01:21:57.640 --> 01:21:59.760
Newsnight told me they were interested, they didn't run the
1665
01:21:59.800 --> 01:22:01.800
stock and every conversation I had, and I'm not going
1666
01:22:01.840 --> 01:22:03.319
to name the person I aspected was like, all very
1667
01:22:03.399 --> 01:22:05.880
nice and icy, and we think it's such an important story,
1668
01:22:06.039 --> 01:22:08.960
but we're having editorial discussions. We're having editorial discussions. We're
1669
01:22:08.960 --> 01:22:11.000
having editorial discussions. And by the end of it, I
1670
01:22:11.039 --> 01:22:13.359
basically got the message was like, you're just not going
1671
01:22:13.399 --> 01:22:15.399
to touch this. Then I went to ITV the around
1672
01:22:15.399 --> 01:22:16.039
it in three days.
1673
01:22:17.000 --> 01:22:17.199
Right.
1674
01:22:17.560 --> 01:22:22.520
So Newsnight has a consistent pattern of misrepresenting and misreporting
1675
01:22:22.520 --> 01:22:25.119
on Dynabo and not giving the alternative version.
1676
01:22:25.239 --> 01:22:25.399
Right.
1677
01:22:25.840 --> 01:22:28.479
So, even in that platform, even in that panel right there,
1678
01:22:28.920 --> 01:22:31.760
five six white people talking about racism, why on earther's
1679
01:22:31.760 --> 01:22:33.880
in Martin Martin Ford on that panel. Martin Ford has
1680
01:22:33.920 --> 01:22:37.399
repeatedly been asked to give, you know, discussions about Dynamic.
1681
01:22:37.479 --> 01:22:40.239
He's worked at DYNAB, He's helped her to try and
1682
01:22:40.319 --> 01:22:42.439
navigate some of her disability issues.
1683
01:22:42.560 --> 01:22:44.720
Why isn't he being brought on board to discuss this issue?
1684
01:22:44.720 --> 01:22:49.000
Instead we have this entirely tone deaf discussion which misrepresents
1685
01:22:49.000 --> 01:22:52.439
what Dynaber says. The other thing, you know, really the
1686
01:22:52.479 --> 01:22:55.119
reason she was resuspended is because of the BBC, because
1687
01:22:55.119 --> 01:22:56.960
what actually happened at that moment is if you listen
1688
01:22:57.039 --> 01:22:59.600
to that interview, it's plain what she's saying. The BBC
1689
01:22:59.640 --> 01:23:03.199
clipped in Socials to make it sound like she was
1690
01:23:03.239 --> 01:23:06.279
saying she didn't regret sending their letter, which wasn't true,
1691
01:23:06.399 --> 01:23:09.079
and immediately as that happened, she was suspended again. There
1692
01:23:09.119 --> 01:23:11.520
was a direct line between them posting of a misleading
1693
01:23:11.520 --> 01:23:13.560
thing on socials and Dynaba being suspended.
1694
01:23:14.680 --> 01:23:15.279
So we have a.
1695
01:23:15.199 --> 01:23:18.199
Situation where they are repeatedly misrepresenting what she says. They're
1696
01:23:18.199 --> 01:23:20.600
getting people on board who I am also I think
1697
01:23:20.800 --> 01:23:23.399
giving the worst faith interpretation of what she has to say.
1698
01:23:24.399 --> 01:23:27.319
They are giving no countervailing opinions. There's not a single
1699
01:23:27.319 --> 01:23:29.640
person on that panel who's not white to speak about it.
1700
01:23:30.279 --> 01:23:32.039
And this is also in the context in which they
1701
01:23:32.039 --> 01:23:35.119
have been given hard evidence of a serious misconduct by
1702
01:23:35.119 --> 01:23:37.800
a senior labor official in government, a buy down abbot,
1703
01:23:37.800 --> 01:23:40.880
and they haven't run that story. Like I don't think
1704
01:23:40.920 --> 01:23:42.680
at this point I'm looking at something. This is not
1705
01:23:42.720 --> 01:23:46.880
a nice, lettered incident. This is a cultural problem within
1706
01:23:46.960 --> 01:23:50.640
Newsnight that they are for some reason unable to report
1707
01:23:50.640 --> 01:23:53.760
accurately and sensitively on this issue. And if they were
1708
01:23:53.760 --> 01:23:56.119
able to report accurately incentives issue, it wouldn't be in
1709
01:23:56.159 --> 01:23:58.640
half an hour, half and half of the episode. It'd
1710
01:23:58.680 --> 01:24:01.880
be a two minute discussion. And part of that discussion
1711
01:24:01.880 --> 01:24:04.640
would be this person has said two things in their life,
1712
01:24:04.960 --> 01:24:08.640
two things in a life that's eighty years long, that
1713
01:24:08.680 --> 01:24:10.800
you don't like on social media, and you think there
1714
01:24:10.800 --> 01:24:14.279
counts more than eighty years of anti racist practice, I
1715
01:24:14.279 --> 01:24:15.920
mean there's outrageous sort of stuff.
1716
01:24:15.920 --> 01:24:17.520
It's outrageous stuff.
1717
01:24:17.359 --> 01:24:19.560
And the BBC really should be ashamed of their conduct,
1718
01:24:19.640 --> 01:24:21.760
should be ashamed of they conduct. Back in twenty twenty
1719
01:24:21.840 --> 01:24:23.479
back in twenty twenty four, Syhu to spend it They
1720
01:24:23.479 --> 01:24:24.840
should be ashamed of what they did there.
1721
01:24:26.560 --> 01:24:28.960
Paul, thank you very much for that, and thank you
1722
01:24:29.000 --> 01:24:32.199
for joining me tonight, and thanks everyone for tuning in.
1723
01:24:32.359 --> 01:24:35.199
Come back on Monday for another live stream from six pm.
1724
01:24:35.279 --> 01:24:36.720
For now you've been watching Navari Media.
1725
01:24:36.760 --> 01:24:37.119
Good night,