What Does Belonging Really Feel Like?

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Belonging is one of those words that sounds simple until you really start talking about it.
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We all want to feel that we belong somewhere in our families, our friendships, our workplaces, our communities.
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But what happens when belonging comes with conditions?
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When being accepted means change in the way you speak, the way you behave, the parts of yourself you show, or even the parts you learn to hide.
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And is that actually belonging?
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For this conversation, I brought together Aisha Thomas, Dominique Chowdhury, and Michael Earle to explore belonging through race, class, identity, education, work, family, and community.
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So what emerged was a really important distinction between belonging and fitting in.
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So today we're asking, what does belonging really feel like?
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This is the third conversation.
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Let's see where it takes us.
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So just an intro around the table, we've got Aisha Thomas, who has dedicated much of her work to championing equity, inclusion, and creating spaces where people feel seen, heard, and valued.
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And she brings a thoughtful perspective on identity, belonging, and community.
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So thank you for joining us today.
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We have Domini, who has spent years bringing communities together, celebrating culture and creating opportunities for people to feel represented.
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Her work is rooted in helping people find connection and belonging.
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So thank you, Dom.
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Thank you.
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And Michael, who has spent his career building relationships and supporting organizations and connecting people as well, bringing a perspective on belonging in both professional and personal life.
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So it's lovely to have you here.
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So I'm just going to start us off with a question now.
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Have there been times in your life where you felt you've had to change parts of yourself in order to belong?
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Where do we start?
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Always the opposite.
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Are there times where you haven't had to?
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Probably should be the question.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I'll start off.
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Local authority.
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As a social well, when I was a social worker, there was this um, how can I say there was a sort of like a social work culture about not having lunch breaks and stuff.
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And I thought that was a bit weird.
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Um and I actually I didn't actually um buy into it, I actually sort of pushed against it, but there was this pre-culture that, oh no, we know social work because we're really hard, we don't go to lunch, and I just thought that's ridiculous.
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So there was that sort of preconception that, yeah, you know, you're gonna have to like fit if you're gonna get on, you're gonna have to fit in.
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Um and then after that, as I sort of worked my way through and years of looking at the structure and seeing how things went, um, I realized that the management structure was again very sort of fixed.
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And I thought, and it's one of the reasons I didn't actually apply to be a manager because I knew that I could manage my team the way that they wanted to, so I didn't even bother to apply it to be a manager.
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I just thought that's not gonna work, we're gonna be, I'm not gonna last very long here because I don't manage the I could see the way that the teams were being managed, and I thought, no, I don't do that.
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Yeah, so I thought there's no point.
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I could see it was really, really fixed, and there weren't many black faces that be managed, but the higher you end up, the the whiter it got.
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And I just thought, oh, okay.
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So I just kind of like I made a pre-decision uh that I did not want to actually fit in, I couldn't fit in there, and it wasn't gonna work for me, so there was no point in me going that far.
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I stayed where I was, I did what I could on that level, which is um front facing and working with the people directly.
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But I loved that, but I could see that the map the high you went up, it was really, really fixed, and I just thought, no, I'm not even gonna like attempt that.
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I didn't want to mould myself into that because uh I couldn't function, so I didn't bother.
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For me, uh throughout most of my life, um, because I grew up in a town where we were the only family of colour, um, so I never felt like I really belonged there.
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So in throughout all my schooling, there were no other global majority children, um, so that was really difficult.
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Um, and then being of mixed heritage, belonging's always been a tricky thing for me because I've never felt that I fully belong in either of my um parents' heritage.
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Um, and then when I moved to Bristol, that was another big shift and experience because um I was the at the time the only senior leader of colour in state education, and so I didn't feel that um I felt that I didn't really belong, and um uh I had quite a lot of imposter syndrome then, but also had comments about being different, you know, from colleagues.
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It's quite interesting because I think I've had it, and I'm I'm looking back and I'm going, there were probably two key moments.
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The first was school, yeah.
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But with good intention, my mum essentially shipped me out of the community.
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So she was like, you know, you need to go to a school where I think you would do academically um better if you weren't around your own community.
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And I didn't understand it at the time, so there's lots of probably deep wounds that probably won't even fit into a podcast like this to discuss as to why that happened.
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But I went to a school in South Gloucestershire.
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So similar to DOM, I'm in an experience where I'm one of very few children from the global majority, but you don't realise that you're different, but you do realize because of the things that are said.
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So you walk down the corridor, here comes trouble.
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Um it's PE, and I'm thinking I need to like wash and like moisturize my skin, and the teacher's like, How are you doing that?
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Yeah, or there are certain things I would say, and it's like, you know, you're not pronouncing your words properly, and I'm and I'm realising all of a sudden this environment that's supposed to make me belong in the future doesn't make me feel like I belong right now.
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Yeah, so I didn't know at the time it was racialized, I didn't have the language for it, so I'm making the meaning now as an adult, but at the time as an 11-year-old, you're just trying to work out why do I feel this feeling?
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I didn't really know.
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But you fast forward, and I'm um I go into law and I'm at a law firm, and then it wasn't so much race, it was class.
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So all of a sudden, everyone's like, Oh, you're you know, we're gonna go into Goldbrick House.
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I'm like, where's that?
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Yeah, and then you go and it's like, oh, you have to buy a round.
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What's a round?
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And then the bill comes, and I'm like, so I have to pay for this, me on this little money, and I'm thinking the money you want to spend on one round of drinks, that's like a food shop.
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Yeah, and I'm being looked at like I'm losing it because I don't understand that this is the etiquette of the environment that you're in.
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I'm going, I'm committing now to a profession that I'm not sure that I belong here.
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Academics is not enough.
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Socially, politically, financially, it just was not aligning.
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So I probably say those were the two most poignant moments where I felt like I didn't belong, and yet these were spaces that were were hopefully going to provide me with future belonging, but in the moment it wasn't there.
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Yeah, that's quite interesting actually, because it goes along to the education side of things, and you know, you say how it changed almost from the racial belonging to the class, and that's something I've experienced through my career as well.
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I've come from single parent family working class, you know, all of those different things, and I've taught in an independent school, and never quite felt like I was good enough or educated enough to be because I didn't go to Oxford or Cambridge, and my degree was in art, and you know, it's like I'm like art teacher, you know, that kind of and you just think, well, actually, I'm still educating the same people, I'm still in the same place as you.
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Um, and it is interesting how belonging can be in so many different parts of our life and means so many different things.
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Um, I hear what you said and actually had similar experiences, I think, but I think I've always known that my lack of belonging um or sense of belonging is racialized because um growing up the N-word was used a lot towards me and other slurs and so on.
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And um, so I knew from a young age that that there was that racial element and it was really obvious.
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But then as I got older, it became more about microaggressions, um, it was less overt, and then class did factor in because one of the things that really struck with stayed with me is when I was um on a um program, advanced headship program to fast-track to become a head teacher, and I was told by um an executive head of some trust that I would never make it as a head teacher because of the way I speak, because my speech was too working class, um, and so therefore I could never become a head teacher, and so I think class does play a huge factor in in in British society and making us feel like we don't belong.
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But you know what the funny thing is about it, it's like the examples are there, but you don't necessarily have the language for it.
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And so I guess the race was always there, but I didn't know that that was what it actually meant, if that makes sense.
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So the way in which I can articulate it now and understand it from a systemic position, from an institutional inter I can I can intellectualize it all that now.
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But at the moment, when a child says to you, you know, you can't come to my house because you're black, and that happens in school, I didn't know it was called racism.
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No, right.
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Yeah, I know it happened, yeah, but I didn't know it was racism.
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Yeah, couldn't label it.
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But do you know what I mean?
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Like I didn't so the experiences were there, yeah.
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I just couldn't articulate why they were there and what they meant, and a lot of my meaning making came so much later, but I suppressed so much of it.
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Do you think kids nowadays would know that though, as well?
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So, say an 11-year-old was told you can't come to my house because you're black, do you think they would know that that was racism without going home and telling their parent and then them explaining it?
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We were talking earlier about how racism is taught in schools.
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And I honestly, as much as I'm educating my own children, I'm not sure they would pick that up as quickly as they should.
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I think some would, I think some wouldn't.
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I think it's all contextual.
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Yeah, yeah, depends on the child, their exposure, what they've been taught, what their parents all of those elements.
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And you know, and I I just think it's not all down to the teachers because I've been one and I know there's there's a lot to be put on you as a teacher, but it is a lot on parents that we as a generation need to be educating our children as well on that, and learning the words to use.
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Because I know when I was growing up, I was never taught the right words that I should be using, and I still don't know.
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My parents' generation, they haven't got a clue about the right words, that's for sure.
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So it's it's you know how things are changing.
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That's a difference between like fitting in and belonging.
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That's yeah, that's actually the quote I use.
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I'm gonna read you this is my tagline for my business, yeah.
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Um, and it's something I really believe in, so that's why I came up with it.
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I said, belonging isn't about fitting in, it's about being fully seen in your authenticity and still invited to stay.
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Yeah, and to me that's really important because I always felt like the authentic version of who I am was never really accepted, and so many different spaces.
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I was having to code switch, actually.
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That's one of the main things.
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Um, and actually now, as I gotten older, I want to be me.
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Yeah, and that has affected everything, it's affected my work, it's affected my relationships, my friendships, everything.
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Yeah, because now I'm done with not being the authentic version of me.
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Yeah, um, and it's either you accept the authentic version of me, yeah, or you go away because you're not gonna be part of my life, and and I'm so I'm almost creating my own belonging in that way, you know, I think.
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Yeah, um, fitting in is damaging.
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Fitting in is damaging because in order to fit in, either you have to squeeze something or cut something off for it to fit in.
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So any kind of fitting in is gonna damage you.
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That's that's actually a really good way to put it.
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That's a good way to put it though, and I think that's something that you know I've struggled with growing up as well.
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Is I'm very Domini knows very good at masking, fitting in, doing what you're told, those kind of things.
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And actually, it that's a that's a really valuable insight of how you know we can define that because I it is such a what makes it really hard is that, and I'm being guilty of this as a parent, if I'm being truthful, is that you are raised to believe that you have to do that in order to survive.
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So, you know, as a black child, even if it wasn't consciently, consciously or explicitly explained why that idea of you need to work harder, you need to behave in this particular way, you need to think about the way you pronounce your words, the way you dress, even when I used to chemically straighten my hair, like all of those elements were fitting in to try and have the best version of my life that I could have in proximity to perceivably what whiteness was, but they didn't necessarily know that that's what they were striving for overtly, but it was certainly an experience they were trying to achieve.
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And I'm talking about my parents at this point in time, um, and quite specifically my parents generated.
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I think my grandparents had a different plan to what my parents have had, and they're in that weird generation where they didn't come over with a plan, but they also didn't really understand what they would be doing now that they're here and born here, and what they now need to do with this experience.
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So some of the lessons of the past, in order to get through and survive, have just been passed on, but with no healing.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And I think you're right, there's a whole generation that came here, migrated here, and thought assimilation was the best way, yeah, and the only way.
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And I saw that in my parents' generation.
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Um, and don't stick your head above the parapet, don't open your, let's not talk about this, let's not talk about that, you know, just get on and do the job.
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We're lucky that we're here.
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Be grateful, yeah.
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Be grateful, yeah.
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And and that I think has passed down, unfortunately.
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Um you know, um, yeah.
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And I'm interested in, you know, what all of you do, you know, with regards to community and work and how that relates to the topic of belonging.
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So, Domini, you had your quote that you just mentioned, you know, what are you, you know, what what you're striving to do through your consultancy?
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Uh, I know you do a lot of work in education, you know, how does that resonate with the theme of belonging?
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Well, for me, um, I do a lot of work obviously around um anti-racism, but I also do a lot of work around children with special educational needs, and they're another group, um, whatever their heritage, where I feel society doesn't make them feel that they belong.
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Um, and the more um high needs they are, the worse it is.
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Yeah.
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Um, and so it's really important to me that um we have the skills as a society to enable all children to feel like they belong, because I know what it's like to feel like you don't belong as a child, yeah.
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And so unfortunately, uh too often in schools, it is children with send who are let down because people haven't got the skills or the training to make sure everyone feels like they're belonging, yeah.
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If they're neurodiverse, for example.
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Um, so that's really important to me.
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But then, of course, there's um uh the work around race as well.
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That's really significant.
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Again, young people made to feel that um, and they don't like it's then like you said, Aisha, you can't quite articulate why, you know, they can't quite articulate why, but they know that they're the ones that keep getting sent out of lessons, yeah.
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Um, you know, and they see that their peers are not being sent out of lessons, but they're constantly being sent out of lessons, told to sit outside and wait for somebody to come fetch them or being suspended or whatever, you know, and addressing those issues because the minute you suspend a child, you have rejected them.
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Yeah, yeah.
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You have rejected them.
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What does that do for that child's sense of belonging?
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Yeah.
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Um, so I do a lot of work around that, and then more recently, my community work is about South Asian heritage and the fact that you know, I've been told by hundreds of children in Bristol alone that they don't feel um that their heritage and culture is represented, so they don't feel that belonging, yeah.
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Even though they've been born here, their parents actually were born here, and so that's the community work I do as well.
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Yeah, and it's all so important as well.
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Michael, what what kind of things are you doing with the theme of belonging?
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Because I know there's lots of different things that you're up to.
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Yeah, mainly um, I'm gonna focus on the mental health work that I do with Nilari.
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So I'm very blessed to be with them, with those guys.
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Again, it's a black-led organisation, so it's funny we talk about belonging.
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It feels really good to be able to go to a work environment and just bring everything with you, just like not have to think, oh, I'm going to work now.
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And it's and I know it's not normal for everyone, but we're just it's just every now and again I have to say to myself, this is real privilege, you know.
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Yeah, I know I can I I talk with my CEO every day.
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Yeah.
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My CEO makes me tea.
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Yeah.
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There are not many organisations that say, Oh, yeah, my CEO makes me tea.
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Um, she's really accessible.
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The staff that we work with, we have a very diverse team of people.
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So on the mental health side, getting back to your question, sorry I straight off a little bit there.
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It's about trying to make people, you know, global majority people feel comfortable accessing mental health services because mental health is something that we don't like to talk about.
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Don't talk about mental health, you know, if you don't have emotions and stuff.
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So allowing people to actually come into a space where they can feel that they belong, seeing practitioners that look like them, sound like them, is is yeah, amaz it's an amazing feeling.
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Um, I was dealing with the client yesterday, um, black male came in, and he was just able to talk and not be told to say, I don't understand you, or I can't understand your acts and what you you know, having people come back and say, What did you say?
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I didn't understand that.
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He was just able to talk and just get it all out, just like you know, just be himself and he was apologize.
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It's funny, he started apologizing.
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I said, You have to apologize.
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This is how you feel.
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He said, Oh, maybe so, and he kept, I'm sorry.
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So you can see how when they're accessing services that are not, you know, um prepared, that there's there was that thing, oh I've got to be careful I've got to be careful, I've got to hold back.
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Because if you don't you might get labelled as a black an angry black man, yeah, mm-hmm.
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So all this, and so you could see there's like no no, it's you it's it's okay if you can just be yourself.
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And at the end of the session, he said, he said thank you.
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He said, That's it, that's what we're here for.
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So it's creating that space where people can just be themselves and say what they need to say and understand that because when people say, Oh, you know, talking therapists, what's that about?
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It's like it's having a conversation.
00:19:57.200 --> 00:20:14.240
And the the biggest thing about the work that we do, and I've said it loads of times to our CEO and colleagues, is that people have a chance to literally that's like the first time they're being heard without somebody trying to jump in and say, Oh, well, you know, because you've said that we're gonna do this.
00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:28.640
So it's it's it's such a simple thing, but it's really powerful, and there are so many, I'm I'm just discovering there are so many people who just have not had the chance to speak without being interrupted, which is being heard.
00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:30.240
That's that's a small definition.
00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:38.960
But it's it's quite frightening that people are accessing services and they're not being served heard or seen, which is the other one.
00:20:39.359 --> 00:20:54.160
When I'm when I mean seen, I mean by they're not being acknowledged as the person as in front of a black person, an Asian person, um, someone with disabilities, they're not it's like they go into a service and there's like a pre-conceived right, you come in, you're a black man, no one got to do with you.
00:20:54.240 --> 00:20:57.200
It's like that's already happened before they've said anything.
00:20:57.359 --> 00:21:01.839
Yeah, and so if you keep getting experiences like that, you're gonna just think, what's the point?
00:21:02.160 --> 00:21:05.839
And so you're not gonna want to access services, and then you'd be labeled as hard to reach.
00:21:06.319 --> 00:21:06.960
I'll stop there.
00:21:07.279 --> 00:21:11.599
An earlier conversation we had was about why was asking for help so hard.
00:21:11.759 --> 00:21:18.480
And one key thing that came up was that because quite a lot of us, the first time you ask for help, you get shut down.
00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:20.240
So then you think, well, why bother?
00:21:20.720 --> 00:21:30.880
And that is such a common theme, and like you say, that's that perception when you walk through the door is the first thing they're gonna look at, and that's you know, it's shocking, but it's true, isn't it?
00:21:31.039 --> 00:21:37.440
You know, and Aisha, you do lots of yeah, I mean, your um portfolio is great.
00:21:37.519 --> 00:21:38.720
What's going on with you at the moment?
00:21:38.799 --> 00:21:39.839
And Do you know what?
00:21:39.920 --> 00:21:47.519
I do lots of different types of work, but I think probably the two most significant things I'm doing at the moment, which I talked to you about earlier, is one is my doctorate.
00:21:48.160 --> 00:21:59.759
So my doctoral studies at the moment is looking at the relationship between um racialization, education, and trauma, and recognize that the fact that this identity and meaning making that people are doing later.
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:07.359
In life, actually, the vehicle of education is traumatizing people and it's not being recognized.
00:22:07.599 --> 00:22:20.000
So, unlike in policing or um social services, or even like uh the NHS, there is an element of recognizing some of the things that you will hear and learn professionally may impact your mental health and well-being.
00:22:20.240 --> 00:22:22.319
As an educator, that doesn't happen.
00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:31.920
So, the very nature that I am racialized as black and I might have to hold space for racial racism, I might have to deal with safeguarding disclosures, I may have to teach topics.
00:22:32.160 --> 00:22:42.559
There is no precedent set that says this is how you therefore support educators who may, for the first time, activate trauma that's been laying dormant that they didn't even know was there.
00:22:43.359 --> 00:22:45.759
And so that's really what my research is about.
00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:53.759
And in recognizing that also people for the first time are realizing, therefore, where they're they even sit in the spectrum of racialized belonging.
00:22:54.079 --> 00:22:59.680
So this idea of being feeling like, am I black enough for the community that I'm trying to support?
00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:06.640
Yeah, or am I too far away from what they expect me to be to be part of this sense of identity and community?
00:23:06.799 --> 00:23:18.079
So the second part of my work that relates to that is we've been running these sessions called Unload to Uplift, and they're primarily for marginalised individuals who feel they need to unload the thing they're carrying in order to uplift themselves.
00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:30.960
So I do it in partnership with an emotion coach, and the idea behind it is giving people space to be heard to say for the first time, I might be racialised as black, but I don't feel like I am because I don't fulfil these ideas of blackness.
00:23:31.119 --> 00:23:31.440
Yeah.
00:23:32.160 --> 00:23:47.359
And you'd be surprised at things that people therefore want to share and talk about, but felt that they couldn't because for fear of being cancelled or for fear of not feeling that they were a part of something that they should be a part of purely because they've got the same melanin in their skin.
00:23:47.599 --> 00:24:04.000
And so for me, this kind of avenue that I've been drawn down was never part of the original plan of the work of representation matters, but it's felt like a necessary evolution to hold people who have never been held in this type of conversation in this way.
00:24:04.160 --> 00:24:15.279
Even though I haven't finished per se the work of change and shifting, it's completely changed my methodology, it's changed the way I train, it's changed the way I deliver, it's changed the way I speak, it's even changed the way I hold space.
00:24:15.599 --> 00:24:28.880
And one of the things I recently did for the NHS is I did this e-learning package for them on cultural humility because what sometimes happens for us, particularly as um professionals in the space, is we gain knowledge and we stop at this idea of we now have awareness.
00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:33.039
I know this thing, I'm now literate in this thing, and I'm now going to apply it.
00:24:33.359 --> 00:24:44.640
But we forget that element of cultural sensitivity and the humility to go back and recognise, but the person who's supposed to be benefiting from your new gained knowledge may not be just because you now feel like you know.
00:24:45.440 --> 00:25:01.680
Because this is more about you intellectually trying to demonstrate that you feel you've been on a journey, or is this to Michael's point actually allowing the person to be heard and not interrupted and even still challenge you on what you might be perceiving to be true because you've had some training?
00:25:03.200 --> 00:25:11.119
Yeah, yeah, and we all know that training can be very ineffective sometimes, so it's kind of taking that further.
00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:16.000
I mean, we've talked about things that you might have had to change.
00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:22.000
What about like when you're actually with your family, when you are at home with your family?
00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:24.799
Do you have that sense of belonging in your family?
00:25:24.960 --> 00:25:27.359
Do you do your children feel like they're belonging?
00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:28.559
Is there things you know?
00:25:28.640 --> 00:25:33.039
Obviously, and I don't know what your relationships are like at home.
00:25:33.200 --> 00:25:38.240
Um but thinking about family itself, do you get that sense of belonging there?
00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:46.880
What I would say is this it's all contextual, and I would say my family's split, and I think that's what makes it very difficult.
00:25:47.039 --> 00:25:51.599
Yeah, I would say there are parts of my family who let's just take what I do.
00:25:51.839 --> 00:25:54.640
There are parts of my family who think, well, it is absolute nonsense.
00:25:55.359 --> 00:25:57.599
What on people pay you for that?
00:25:58.480 --> 00:25:59.359
Are you serious?
00:25:59.680 --> 00:26:05.680
Like they cannot even believe that it is a thing, and even in cases they've done the kind of but all lives matter thing.
00:26:05.920 --> 00:26:20.480
Like I've heard that from my own family members, but equally, I've got family members who go, This is like you're you're you're destined to do this, like you're doing in their mind, like God's work, like you're doing the thing that needs to be done to perhaps make things better for the next generation.
00:26:20.799 --> 00:26:25.759
So I always feel there's this tension and pull in terms of belonging and identity and connection.
00:26:26.079 --> 00:26:33.119
But I think probably the thing that I will share that I found the hardest is me going on the journey to understand my true heritage.
00:26:33.440 --> 00:26:39.920
I'm similar in that um my family, extended family, a lot of them don't get why I do what I do.
00:26:40.160 --> 00:26:47.839
Um, but also I think for me, um, I've never felt a sense of belonging because of being mixed heritage.
00:26:48.079 --> 00:26:59.839
Um, it's kind of really hard to realize that your extended family orientalise you and other you um because you aren't completely the same as them, yeah.
00:26:59.920 --> 00:27:03.440
Um, and I've spent my whole life navigating that.
00:27:03.599 --> 00:27:10.240
I've kind of accepted it now, but what I think is worse is that they don't recognise they're doing that, yeah.
00:27:10.400 --> 00:27:15.039
If they acknowledged it, um, tried to work on it, maybe that would be different.
00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:20.079
But actually not recognizing it, I think, is harder.
00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:24.640
And when I then bring it up, oh, you're making a big deal out of nothing.
00:27:24.799 --> 00:27:26.400
No, that's not true, etc.
00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:26.960
etc.
00:27:27.359 --> 00:27:33.920
And it's again it's microaggressions, and getting microaggressions from your own family is really challenging.
00:27:34.160 --> 00:27:42.720
So it's like um when I manage to successfully communicate in Bengali, everyone is like eyes out the top of their head, you know.
00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:45.039
Why do you not think I can speak Bengali?
00:27:45.279 --> 00:27:52.000
You know, um, or if I cook a a dish that's very traditional, how did you learn to do that?
00:27:52.160 --> 00:28:00.319
You know, these kinds of things, and you know, so that all those tiny little things, you know, they accumulate, don't they?
00:28:01.039 --> 00:28:01.680
Me, right.
00:28:01.759 --> 00:28:05.039
I'm gonna go back to my sibling stuff because I'm the youngest of six.
00:28:05.200 --> 00:28:05.599
Wow.
00:28:05.759 --> 00:28:07.839
Yeah, that was a busy house.
00:28:08.079 --> 00:28:09.359
Well, mine was busy with three.
00:28:10.240 --> 00:28:14.240
Yeah, so yeah, there was, yeah, it's it's it's it's oh god.
00:28:14.319 --> 00:28:17.519
Yeah, there was a time where I think all six of us were going to high school.
00:28:17.759 --> 00:28:18.079
Wow.
00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:21.119
Yeah, we lived in a terrace house in Grangetown.
00:28:22.400 --> 00:28:23.039
Yeah.
00:28:24.799 --> 00:28:38.880
It was um it was it was I look looking back on it, it was like, you know, because like we all do, like we look back and we laugh, but at the time it was like really quite, it was like full on, you know, because if you've got a late, you didn't get breakfast, it was that's right, it was just gone.
00:28:39.440 --> 00:28:44.079
And my lovely sister used to get ages in the bathroom, you shall remain nameless.
00:28:44.480 --> 00:28:46.079
Um but yeah, all the stuff.
00:28:46.240 --> 00:28:48.160
So feel belonging, yeah.
00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:50.079
I I love my family, I'll kill for them, no problem.
00:28:50.240 --> 00:28:51.039
Drop a hat.
00:28:51.359 --> 00:28:58.079
Um, but because I was the youngest, what I had difficulties with, and maybe we identify with people now, is the being hurt thing.
00:28:58.400 --> 00:29:02.240
Because like by the time my opinion came into play, like it was all everything was all sorted.
00:29:02.559 --> 00:29:03.759
Like it's like, who are you?
00:29:04.799 --> 00:29:10.319
You know, and there was there's a five-year gap between my the last sister and me.
00:29:10.640 --> 00:29:16.160
So like there's this physical gap as well, because like they probably all thought it was gonna be five, and then oh, Michael comes along.
00:29:16.240 --> 00:29:20.079
Yes, because my brother was saying, Oh, yeah, you've got you're like a five-year gap.
00:29:20.240 --> 00:29:27.599
So uh I come along at the end, and I really did have a struggle sort of like being heard as I was growing up.
00:29:27.680 --> 00:29:32.160
It was quite I'm looking back at it now and thinking, oh yeah, okay, yeah, that was that was the thing for me.
00:29:32.559 --> 00:29:49.440
So belonging, yes, but being heard and having your opinion valued um was always an ongoing issue, and like even sometimes now, with you know, even being 60, being the youngest, it's like that's a weird thing to get your head around.
00:29:49.599 --> 00:29:58.559
But it's like sometimes when we're having conversations, it's like I can hear some of the elders saying stuff, and I'm thinking, no, you're not gonna shut my opinion now.
00:29:58.640 --> 00:30:03.599
It's like you're getting into this sort of like you're the baby mode in the conversations we're having, yeah.
00:30:03.759 --> 00:30:08.319
And I find myself having to sort of assert and say, no, do you're not gonna have to go down that road?
00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:11.039
No, let's let's like back it up a bit.
00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:22.720
So even now at this age, it's still sort of like trying to find when it comes to being intellectual conversations and stuff, it's like, are you really seeing me for like who I have become?
00:30:23.119 --> 00:30:25.759
Or are you still looking at me as like all the baby brother?
00:30:25.920 --> 00:30:28.960
So I'm I still have to deal with that little bit of belonging.
00:30:29.039 --> 00:30:31.200
It's not a massive thing, but sometimes it can it flares up.
00:30:31.279 --> 00:30:33.680
It's like so lovely doing this.
00:30:35.440 --> 00:30:37.599
So yeah, it's it's an interesting dynamic.
00:30:37.680 --> 00:30:43.200
It doesn't happen very often, we don't get together all loads, but when we do, it kind of like moves its head up again.
00:30:43.359 --> 00:30:51.839
Yeah, so I guess it it links into that representation of you representing yourself and you know being her, being you.
00:30:53.119 --> 00:30:54.160
I mean my family, yeah.
00:30:54.559 --> 00:31:01.119
Why am I being so and especially now, like I'm an adult, I'm grown up now, you know.
00:31:02.160 --> 00:31:02.960
It's a weird dynamic.
00:31:03.200 --> 00:31:04.400
Yeah, it is a weird dynamic.
00:31:04.640 --> 00:31:08.720
Family, I mean, families are a whole can of worms a lot of the time.
00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:17.200
I mean, mine is another story as well, but I I don't really have any contact with any of my extended family, so I don't actually know a lot.
00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:23.359
You know, I know I was born in Bristol, I knew my parents grew up in Kingswood and you know, things like that.
00:31:23.440 --> 00:31:26.160
But apart from that, that's all I really know.
00:31:26.960 --> 00:31:31.039
Um yeah, families are definitely a different one.
00:31:31.200 --> 00:31:41.680
But thinking about that representation, with your um work that you do for representation matters, what's the kind of main focus that you, you know, that you drive for with that?
00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:43.839
It's it's changed, it's evolved.
00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:55.200
I think when I first started, it literally was we need the representation, like there isn't the visual manifestation of people's lived experiences, particularly from an education lens.
00:31:55.519 --> 00:32:01.599
I really felt that there was like one example, and you have to be the example for all every community, and that's what you had to do.
00:32:01.839 --> 00:32:10.799
You know, to Dom's point, being you know, the only leader at the time, Dom's then trying to represent everyone else's community as well as her own, like it's ridiculous.
00:32:10.960 --> 00:32:13.839
So I think initially it was almost a bit of a numbers game.
00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:24.079
Can we physically just get more people in the profession and can we recognise that more children need to have that um lived experience and have those role models and real models in front of them?
00:32:24.319 --> 00:32:38.400
But what became quite clear and quite apparent, as we know, a saying that we talk about is that skin folk don't make kin folk, so just because somebody looks like you, you cannot assume that your values and the behaviours that sit under your values are now aligned.
00:32:38.480 --> 00:32:41.440
Yeah, and so that's where the work really had to evolve.
00:32:41.519 --> 00:32:49.839
Yeah, because it could no longer be about representation alone, that sometimes actually could create inequity and inequality.
00:32:50.079 --> 00:32:55.279
What you actually needed to recognise is yes, there's representation, but actually, is it authentic?
00:32:55.519 --> 00:32:58.799
Actually, how is it affecting an individual's mental health and well-being?
00:32:58.960 --> 00:33:06.640
And do they genuinely feel like they have a sense of um being heard and connected and valued for who they are beyond ticking a box for somebody else?
00:33:06.799 --> 00:33:09.200
Yeah, were they a pawn for somebody?
00:33:09.279 --> 00:33:12.400
You know, how are they really being utilized in the space?
00:33:12.480 --> 00:33:17.119
So I would say our work now is about stretching you and holding you to account.
00:33:17.279 --> 00:33:17.599
Yeah.
00:33:17.920 --> 00:33:22.000
And so we talk to people a lot about this idea of people having intellectual tantrums.
00:33:22.160 --> 00:33:28.240
So when you really hold people to things, because you know, someone said to me earlier, you know, what's your biggest barrier to the work you do?
00:33:28.319 --> 00:33:29.759
I said it's disbelief.
00:33:30.319 --> 00:33:49.440
I cannot do the work I do if you don't believe that this exists as a truth, even if it's not your truth, if you do not believe that there is a space, a time where what I'm talking about actually exists, then that's the biggest barrier because we can't even begin to get into the discussion points and where we're we're starting from because you don't believe that this is real.
00:33:49.519 --> 00:33:49.839
Yeah.
00:33:50.160 --> 00:33:57.759
So then you're having an intellectual tantrum because your brain's going, no, no, no, no, no, I don't believe in what you're saying, and then you've got your amygdala's kicking in because you're perceiving threats.
00:33:57.839 --> 00:34:17.119
So you're spending all of your time trying to defend your position, then just being open and considering that this is an experience that I'm having right now doesn't make you a bad person because it's not yours, but let's just be open, and so a lot of our work now has actually had to go backwards, if I'm honest with you.
00:34:17.199 --> 00:34:24.239
Yeah, it you know, it used to feel in 2020 our work was a little bit like um a sprint.
00:34:24.639 --> 00:34:30.000
Come in and do anti-racism work, and you just go straight in, you there's no warm-up, just go in, get it done.
00:34:30.159 --> 00:34:32.000
And it felt like people were better prepared for that.
00:34:32.239 --> 00:34:37.679
Now, to use that same analogy, people are getting a stitch because they've not done the work beforehand to be ready to run.
00:34:38.480 --> 00:34:40.639
So that pain is there, the stretch isn't there.
00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:50.719
So now I feel like a lot of our work, to some people's disappointment and frustration, is back to are you even ready for the conversation?
00:34:51.119 --> 00:34:51.280
Yeah.
00:34:51.440 --> 00:34:54.960
So I've now gone back to the art of can we converse?
00:34:55.119 --> 00:34:55.280
Yeah.
00:34:55.440 --> 00:34:58.480
What does it mean to talk, disagree, and still be okay on the other side?
00:34:58.639 --> 00:34:58.800
Yeah.
00:34:59.039 --> 00:35:07.760
And so, whilst I am arguably peasing carroting in anti-racism work, I wouldn't say it's always overtly commissioned as anti-racism now.
00:35:08.079 --> 00:35:09.440
That's really interesting, actually.
00:35:09.599 --> 00:35:26.559
And that links really well to kind of my thoughts behind starting this podcast was that encouraging that conversing, and that is what people need to do more in order to understand, to learn, to develop, to, you know, build communities that matter.
00:35:26.800 --> 00:35:30.400
And I love that saying that you said a minute ago about what was it, kinship.
00:35:30.639 --> 00:35:32.079
Oh, skin footmake info.
00:35:32.480 --> 00:35:50.480
You know, you cannot rely purely on, and that's for you know, I'm talking about race, but that could be for sexuality, gender, mental health experience, whatever it is, we cannot make assumptions because we've had a similar quote-unquote experience that it's going to be the same because it probably isn't.
00:35:50.719 --> 00:35:55.119
Yeah, and that's where people get frustrated and upset with each other.
00:35:55.599 --> 00:36:05.280
We can both have a struggle, but the struggle manifests itself differently, and also how we handle that struggle is often down to who we are, not necessarily the experience in itself.
00:36:05.440 --> 00:36:05.679
Yeah.
00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:24.000
See, that really rings true for me with my work because um I, for the last 20 years that I've been in Bristol, have almost felt like I've done a lot more work around anti-racism with the black community because my own South Asian communities have not been open to it.
00:36:24.079 --> 00:36:27.840
Um, and those conversations have just gone on a dead end, you know.
00:36:28.079 --> 00:36:49.760
Whereas um, you know, working in the schools that I've worked in, I've engaged a lot with parents and um children and so on, and community organizations that represent the black community, um, um, with Bristol um being the demographic it is, and um and that's been felt felt actually quite a welcoming space.
00:36:49.840 --> 00:37:02.000
Um, I've built relationships and felt that I um could be in those spaces, but now I'm reaching a point where I'm I'm feeling like it shouldn't be me.
00:37:02.159 --> 00:37:19.440
Um, and actually my focus should be more on the South Asian communities, and that's why you know I've done the whole South Asian Heritage Month and created that program, and um, and now I'm starting to find people that want to have that conversation and sit with me.
00:37:19.679 --> 00:37:36.719
I will say there's a generational difference though, so it is people that are younger than me that want to do that work, and you know, um, but and so that's the challenge, and yet the people that are younger they're passionate, but they don't necessarily have the influence.
00:37:37.039 --> 00:37:47.599
The older people um have the influence, they're the civic leaders, the community leaders, and so on, and it has been harder sometimes to engage them.
00:37:47.840 --> 00:37:53.920
So definitely um my work has evolved in that sense um as well.
00:37:54.079 --> 00:37:54.400
Yeah.
00:37:54.800 --> 00:37:55.679
What about you, Michael?
00:37:55.760 --> 00:37:58.960
Because I know that you hold a lot of spaces for men's groups as well.
00:37:59.199 --> 00:38:03.440
How do you is there any themes around belonging within that?
00:38:03.679 --> 00:38:11.360
There is, and I'm gonna look at the point from having men's groups to say that they're not there's not many spaces for men.
00:38:11.920 --> 00:38:18.719
So, what I've what we've been trying to do at Nilari and and myself is actually try to do lots of collaborations with other organisations as well.
00:38:18.800 --> 00:38:43.840
So we started something up with Trinity, um, and we called it Men's Space, we did a little pilot which has ended, but it was just literally creating was three hours in the afternoon where men could just come men, any men of any background could come together, almost you're 18 that was, and just spend some time doing sort of um going out in nature, you know, looking at trees and stuff, and just connecting, connecting and talking, and it worked really, really well as a little pilot.
00:38:44.159 --> 00:38:56.960
So it's about just trying to find um more or provide more spaces where men can just come together and just be because I don't think there's a lot of that for men, you know, it's just like there's lots of lady stuff as well.
00:38:57.360 --> 00:39:00.639
Can't get me wrong, great, but for men, it's like oh, nothing for us.
00:39:00.719 --> 00:39:09.840
And so what usually happens is that as I say to some of the clients I work with, they men te seem to go from one event or one crisis to another.
00:39:10.559 --> 00:39:12.719
They just like you know, they come in torture.
00:39:12.960 --> 00:39:13.920
Oh, this happened, that happened.
00:39:14.079 --> 00:39:29.199
So wow, there's like and and it's all be well, part of it is because what's what is really there available for men, apart from you know the pubs and the other places, but nothing creative, and so it's about trying to provide creative spaces, yeah.
00:39:29.920 --> 00:39:35.599
You know, for so men can actually discover that yeah, I've there's things that I can do, I am creative.
00:39:35.760 --> 00:39:57.840
So all that stuff is laying dormant in them, it's not being explored, it's not being tapped into, and again, getting labels, you know, oh they're lazy, they're just hanging around, they're just and so we're trying to sort of like no, let's be let's actually re-redress this, you know, and so just change the labels because men are like walking around with lots of posting notes on little notes and late on you know.
00:40:02.880 --> 00:40:11.280
Because I I do find like in the the a lot of the men I know that would really benefit from going to a lot of those communities wouldn't go.
00:40:11.440 --> 00:40:11.679
Yeah.
00:40:11.920 --> 00:40:12.079
Right.
00:40:12.159 --> 00:40:13.760
Now now this is the challenge.
00:40:13.920 --> 00:40:24.960
Yeah, this is the challenge, and I think what is what I'm discovering is that because there haven't been the spaces in the past, when they're presented now, it's like it's like not used to this.
00:40:25.039 --> 00:40:28.400
This is a bit so we're having to at the moment push past that.
00:40:28.480 --> 00:40:30.559
We have to have to keep we have to keep presenting it.
00:40:30.960 --> 00:40:33.599
It's like trying to get someone used to something they've never seen before.
00:40:33.679 --> 00:40:37.760
You have to keep presenting it to them, presenting it, presenting it before they even have a little look.
00:40:38.079 --> 00:40:41.920
So we're in that stage of saying, yeah, this is men's space just for does anyone else say it?
00:40:42.000 --> 00:40:42.639
No, it's just for men.
00:40:42.800 --> 00:40:44.159
And so you can talk about anything you like.
00:40:44.320 --> 00:40:45.840
So I can get you can have a cup of tea.
00:40:46.000 --> 00:40:47.199
I haven't got it, no, it's free.
00:40:47.440 --> 00:40:52.960
So it's like you've got to like re-sort of you know, present and say, Yeah, this this is for you.
00:40:53.119 --> 00:40:56.079
Because like it's just not it's not been around, so it's not used to it.
00:40:56.639 --> 00:41:04.400
So it's we're on that journey of letting men know that yeah, there is there are spaces for you, there are people that want to listen to you, there is time.
00:41:04.880 --> 00:41:08.239
So it's it's a great journey, but it's the beginning of that journey.
00:41:08.400 --> 00:41:14.400
Um, but yeah, there are there are men out there who are taking it up, so it's like gotta keep going.
00:41:14.719 --> 00:41:22.159
There's another group in the society who where I question how much they feel a sense of belonging, and I think that's the elderly.
00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:31.280
Um, I I don't know that in this society that we make our elderly feel like they really belong.
00:41:31.519 --> 00:41:37.440
Um you know, I don't think they're given much purpose or much credibility, you know.
00:41:37.599 --> 00:41:42.639
Um, and I think they can offer a huge amount um wisdom and so on.
00:41:42.800 --> 00:41:50.719
But when you go to say, I don't know, more traditional societies, you see that you see a totally different way in which the elderly are treated.
00:41:50.960 --> 00:41:56.880
But here they're almost seen a bit like a drain on society, but also they're with community.
00:41:57.039 --> 00:42:12.320
So having been to Jamaica in the last um couple of months, what's been so interesting is you know, you're going into the community, and that what we perceivably say is elderly here isn't considered to be elderly, we don't use that language, but they're also sat with the young people, we're all sat together.
00:42:12.559 --> 00:42:14.159
There is no kind of hierarchy.
00:42:14.320 --> 00:42:23.760
Whereas I couldn't imagine like my nan being sat at the same event as my son unless it was forced-like a family forced, we're going to this, yeah.
00:42:23.920 --> 00:42:30.559
But that was normal, there was no particular event, it's just what you do, eat together, laugh together, yeah, exactly.
00:42:30.800 --> 00:42:36.639
And it's just normal, like that's completely normalized, but also it helps to keep them young.
00:42:36.800 --> 00:42:39.599
So, you know, one of my cousins is like 75.
00:42:39.840 --> 00:42:46.719
The way this woman flew up the hill, and I'm like, You're 75, but it's because the role doesn't stop.
00:42:46.800 --> 00:43:04.079
Yeah, there isn't like retirement in that regard, so you're still going out and picking mango and collecting water and doing this, so your role doesn't so there is no stop point, but the rates of loneliness amongst the elderly are astronomical in this country, yeah.
00:43:04.320 --> 00:43:12.639
And then with that comes all kinds of dangers because maybe no one's checking in on them, vulnerabilities, yeah.
00:43:12.880 --> 00:43:27.440
But also if they lose their partner, that you know, then they then maybe go not long afterwards because you know, and it's just it doesn't have to be like that, and because of the the isolation aspect, that belonging gets lost, yeah.
00:43:28.000 --> 00:43:38.800
Especially, you know, people that go into uh elderliness, shall we say, with their partner, and that partner's suddenly gone, their unit is gone.
00:43:40.000 --> 00:43:47.760
And then it goes back to education because actually, how do we educate children in this country about the respects and value of the elderly community?
00:43:48.400 --> 00:43:55.599
I I don't think we do a very good job at how we value, how we respect, how we connect with.
00:43:56.079 --> 00:43:58.400
I don't think we do anything at all to encourage that.
00:43:58.480 --> 00:43:59.599
I can't even think, I'm thinking back.
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:07.760
Now to anything we taught in schools that really spoke, except for from looking at a different community and doing a comparison.
00:44:08.159 --> 00:44:20.880
I I I can't the only thing I can think of is when my kids were in nursery, there was a a nursing home next door, and they used to go in once a week and sing songs, and that was the only connection I can remember.
00:44:21.199 --> 00:44:41.920
But I think the the rhetoric around the elderly that's um peddled by politicians and so on isn't helpful, you know, because and I know we've got a huge problem with social care in this country, but you know, the language you hear about it is it makes it positions the elderly as a massive drain on society, you know.
00:44:42.079 --> 00:45:01.119
Um, and you know, even I would argue that there are some previous politicians who have almost presented um um a eugenics model of society, you know, that and certainly they keep pushing the limit for retirement, official retirement, and so on.
00:45:01.280 --> 00:45:22.800
Just this idea that you know they're not useful to society, um, you know, the elderly and yeah, and I and I I don't know what I've noticed in the UK there's a care home culture, which is really awful, which which actually um pushes that thing of separating them, putting them over there, you just get put you over there, yeah.
00:45:23.199 --> 00:45:26.480
And that separation, that's like you know, what's the live in a care home?
00:45:26.559 --> 00:45:28.400
And then again, we've heard all the stories of what's going on.
00:45:29.039 --> 00:45:31.760
So it sounds like an adult prison for a crime you haven't committed.
00:45:32.159 --> 00:45:42.880
Right, because you can't leave, you're subject to people visiting you, and it takes all of your financial resources, and dignity, and you know, we're not gonna we've we've all heard something.
00:45:43.440 --> 00:45:48.719
Yeah, and but then I also think as a country we're not prepared for anything else.
00:45:49.119 --> 00:46:00.800
I I wasn't brought up in a community that was expected that I would look after my parents, so I've got you know a fairly reasonable sized house, but I filled every room with kids.
00:46:00.880 --> 00:46:07.039
Yeah, you know, I haven't got yeah, that's the thing that element that expectations, yeah.
00:46:07.280 --> 00:46:08.400
So the community.
00:46:09.199 --> 00:46:19.679
When I go back to Bangladesh and I see like if there's an elderly person, it's like a village, and you know, like they say it takes a village to raise a child, it takes a village to look after your elderly, yeah.
00:46:19.760 --> 00:46:21.360
And that it doesn't exist here.
00:46:21.440 --> 00:46:33.360
We're not the community focus has left, has gone now in this country, and I think that's where then our most vulnerable in society are then uh the ones that are suffering for that.
00:46:33.519 --> 00:46:49.760
And it's sad because COVID gave us a glimpse, yeah, a glimpse of what it could be like to have that again, in the sense of like my nan said when she grew up and grew up my dad and my aunts and uncle, it was normal to leave your front door open and you just share.
00:46:50.000 --> 00:46:53.519
So my nan was like with like to like nursing, she's like two to ten or whatever.
00:46:53.599 --> 00:47:07.840
And so it's like you'd cook and then you'd put on food, and the kids from each person on rotation would go in each other's houses and help each other and care for each other, like that was so normalized, and you'd do that for the the elderly or the sick in the community.
00:47:08.000 --> 00:47:08.800
That's just normal.
00:47:09.840 --> 00:47:15.679
Now they can go days with no visitor if nobody is able to make that commitment.
00:47:15.920 --> 00:47:22.480
What's happening now, just trying to choose my words carefully, is that we're almost getting used to going to people's houses and finding them dead.
00:47:22.559 --> 00:47:27.760
Yes, because they haven't heard from anyone for a couple of days or a week.
00:47:30.159 --> 00:47:30.320
Yeah.
00:47:30.480 --> 00:47:34.639
Growing up, I lived in a community where the neighbours would knock on each other's doors and help each other out.
00:47:34.719 --> 00:47:47.199
And we live, I'm very lucky that I live on a cold de sac and there's children all of a similar age, and you know, when the kids are out playing, all the doors are open and they're going in and out, and it'll be like, Oh, I'm just getting nipped into the shock, you watch so and so.
00:47:47.280 --> 00:47:49.840
Yeah, fine, and we feed them all and everything.
00:47:50.079 --> 00:47:51.599
But that's not normal.
00:47:51.920 --> 00:47:52.239
Normal.
00:47:52.400 --> 00:47:58.639
No, it's because we're very fortunate we live on a little road in a little village, and that's I don't know my neighbours.
00:47:58.719 --> 00:48:00.400
I've lived there for nine years, don't you?
00:48:00.719 --> 00:48:01.920
And I don't know my neighbours, yeah.
00:48:02.079 --> 00:48:02.559
It's different.
00:48:02.800 --> 00:48:14.079
My children would then have a shock when they see when they kind of go to other people's houses and go like, oh, you don't know your neighbours, or you know, it's because they have a sense of belonging even at home.
00:48:14.239 --> 00:48:19.199
Yeah, imagine going home to where you should have belonging and you don't even feel like you belong on the street that you live on.
00:48:19.280 --> 00:48:20.000
Yeah, exactly.
00:48:20.239 --> 00:48:21.840
So you just want to quickly shut your front door, yeah.
00:48:21.920 --> 00:48:24.639
So then you're trying to cultivate a bit of belonging inside your home.
00:48:24.800 --> 00:48:31.920
But if you don't have children or you don't have a partner or you don't have family, all of a sudden you're now looking for belonging everywhere else.
00:48:32.000 --> 00:48:53.679
And I think that's where social media is quite interesting, how vulnerable that makes people because now I'm trying to find connection because on my phone I can create this quasi, you know, 24-hour connection with somebody anywhere in the world is something if I cannot get it in the human sense, uh, physical sense.
00:48:54.320 --> 00:48:58.320
But I think that might be hindering actual belonging, yeah.
00:48:59.599 --> 00:49:04.000
Because yeah, it's not real, and then they're just on that all the time.
00:49:04.400 --> 00:49:11.679
And for some young people, that is the only sense of belonging they have, you know, is what's on the other side of their screen.
00:49:12.000 --> 00:49:14.239
They think it's young people's like elderly too.
00:49:14.320 --> 00:49:16.320
Like my man, I went to her house the other day, she's on TikTok.
00:49:16.400 --> 00:49:17.679
I'm like, What are you on TikTok for?
00:49:18.719 --> 00:49:22.480
But it's connection for her because she's like because there's always another video, yeah, yeah.
00:49:22.639 --> 00:49:23.360
Yeah, yeah.
00:49:23.599 --> 00:49:26.880
And so she's like watching these videos to see the outside world.
00:49:26.960 --> 00:49:28.000
And she goes, No, no, no, no.
00:49:28.079 --> 00:49:34.880
I'm like But then I was talking to I met one of my ex-students the other day who's now early 20s and she's got a partner.
00:49:34.960 --> 00:49:35.920
I said, Well, how did you meet?
00:49:36.079 --> 00:49:37.199
And she said, Oh, on Tinder.
00:49:37.519 --> 00:49:43.519
And I was like, But you're young, surely just older people go into it, because I just take it for granted that I met my husband in a pub.
00:49:43.679 --> 00:49:47.519
Yeah, you know, I went out and I spoke to him in the real world.
00:49:47.920 --> 00:49:54.719
I do wonder about people, and especially children, um being so socially awkward because of that.
00:49:54.880 --> 00:50:06.239
And there is there are studies now emerging that that is the case, yeah, that they're really struggling with social um etiquette and knowing how to interact.
00:50:06.400 --> 00:50:07.760
And we saw it with COVID.
00:50:07.840 --> 00:50:15.360
Yeah, we saw it when the kids came back to school after COVID, like it's like their social skills had gone backwards, yeah.
00:50:15.599 --> 00:50:19.840
And they'd miss, you know, after all the lockdowns, they just didn't know how to interact with each other.
00:50:19.920 --> 00:50:26.800
I don't remember that time because my youngest she just turned one the week that we went into lockdown.
00:50:27.440 --> 00:50:35.920
And so the other parents that had babies the same age that was their only child really struggled with their child with the communication and all of that.
00:50:36.079 --> 00:50:41.760
Whereas she had two older brothers, she still had interaction and play.
00:50:41.920 --> 00:50:46.800
And because, as parents, you know, parents are working away the whole time during COVID online.
00:50:47.199 --> 00:50:53.519
So if you had a little baby that, you know, and I'm not parents had to do what they had to do to survive, you know.
00:50:53.760 --> 00:51:04.079
But they are finding that they are a little bit behind at school or they do struggle with their emotional and social development really um was hindered during COVID.
00:51:04.159 --> 00:51:09.679
Um, there's a lot of studies that have now shown that, um, that generation of children.
00:51:10.000 --> 00:51:17.360
So yeah, but you are right, like even my kids them, go and ask the customer service assistant.
00:51:17.679 --> 00:51:19.760
No, no, what do you mean no?
00:51:20.000 --> 00:51:27.360
If you don't ask, you're not gonna get, but this idea of social anxiety, yeah, they'll you know they'd quite happily DM them or put a comment.
00:51:27.679 --> 00:51:28.719
It's not just kids.
00:51:28.880 --> 00:51:32.239
If someone rings me, I stare at the phone and I don't want to answer it.
00:51:32.400 --> 00:51:35.039
Yeah, I'm like, right, why are you ringing me?
00:51:35.119 --> 00:51:36.719
Just message me, just text me.
00:51:37.199 --> 00:51:37.760
Wild to me.
00:51:37.840 --> 00:51:42.400
Like I am a chatty patty, like I can do like four hours on the phone all day long.
00:51:42.559 --> 00:51:44.159
But yeah, I am the worst on message.
00:51:44.239 --> 00:51:49.440
You'd think I'm being rude because I'm quite blunt because I'm just like, I don't, that's not a form of communication that I enjoy.
00:51:49.840 --> 00:51:56.480
But I see it in my children, and I'm going, boys, you have to learn the art of communication.
00:51:56.960 --> 00:51:58.239
That creates belonging.
00:51:58.320 --> 00:52:03.280
Because if you don't, if you can't converse, you're gonna find life really difficult.
00:52:03.599 --> 00:52:08.320
And I've definitely got worse as my so my mobile use has gotten more, yeah.
00:52:08.400 --> 00:52:10.000
And I definitely have got worse.
00:52:10.079 --> 00:52:12.880
If if that phone rings, I freak out, you know.
00:52:13.280 --> 00:52:14.639
I'm gonna start ringing you all this time.
00:52:15.280 --> 00:52:16.159
We're all gonna do that now.
00:52:17.599 --> 00:52:21.280
All of us so funny.
00:52:21.360 --> 00:52:22.800
Oh wow, it's really, really interesting.
00:52:22.880 --> 00:52:38.320
But I saw this um image yesterday, and I think what I also think is that people you can have a lot of people around you and perceivably believe that you have belonging, but it's not a true reflection of your reality.
00:52:38.400 --> 00:52:43.119
It depends on, I guess, what you quantify as true connection.
00:52:43.280 --> 00:52:43.760
Yeah.
00:52:44.000 --> 00:52:54.719
And so this image I saw on social media yesterday was a person who sat on the floor in the middle, and then it was like, this is what it looks like if you had a hundred people following you, a thousand people, a hundred thousand, a million.
00:52:54.800 --> 00:53:01.599
And it was this idea of going, wow, you can have all these people watching you around you, but how many people are you truly connected to?
00:53:02.000 --> 00:53:05.360
How many could you pick up the phone and have an actual conversation with?
00:53:05.519 --> 00:53:10.159
How many, if you were having a crisis, that would be the person you would you would turn to?
00:53:10.320 --> 00:53:12.960
How many would cook you a meal if you were sick?
00:53:13.119 --> 00:53:26.480
Yeah, and it's just really recognizing that I think we have a lot of superficial connection, absolutely, but isn't deeply fulfilled these relationships, and so I think people will say, I've got friends, I've got family, I've got this, and I've got that.
00:53:27.119 --> 00:53:28.239
But do you really?
00:53:28.719 --> 00:53:39.760
Yeah, and I that's really interesting comment because recently my mum passed away, and that it was a very small cluster of people that showed up.
00:53:39.920 --> 00:53:56.639
You you get the messages from everyone, and they were lovely messages, but you know, someone that turned up with a chicken pie, someone that turned up with flowers or cake, or you know, all those different things, bringing things for the kids, and that's that was probably 10 people in total.
00:53:56.960 --> 00:53:57.840
Do you know what I mean?
00:53:58.159 --> 00:54:08.159
And yet I would probably have had text messages from 50, so to speak, and it's like a hundred people might have liked a picture of it on social media.
00:54:08.480 --> 00:54:27.119
But then interestingly, when I had the celebration of life, there were people from the community, from the school community that came because they found and it was a real eye open because it was it's a bit of a weird one, but I just didn't know if it was gonna be two people turn up or 50 people turn up.
00:54:28.000 --> 00:54:31.360
And that's when you really know your worth and your belonging, isn't it?
00:54:31.519 --> 00:54:37.840
And it's not just showing up for her, but showing up for me, my children and the community.
00:54:38.000 --> 00:54:40.880
But yeah, it's really valid the point that you're saying there.
00:54:41.119 --> 00:54:43.760
There's something from this conversation that I keep coming back to.
00:54:44.239 --> 00:54:46.800
Belonging and fitting in are not the same thing.
00:54:47.199 --> 00:54:58.480
Because if belonging requires us to make ourselves smaller, change the way we speak, hide where we come from, or remove parts of ourselves so that everybody feels, you know, everybody else feels comfortable.
00:54:59.440 --> 00:55:01.840
Perhaps we never really belonged there in the first place.
00:55:03.039 --> 00:55:12.960
What I heard around this table was how deeply our sense of belonging can be shaped by race, class, family, education, work, and the places we find ourselves in.
00:55:13.599 --> 00:55:23.360
But I also heard something hopefully that as we understand ourselves better, perhaps we can become more intentional about the spaces we create for ourselves and for other people.
00:55:23.679 --> 00:55:34.000
Spaces where being different doesn't mean being outside, where being heard matters, and where we don't have to mould ourselves into somebody else's version of acceptable just to be invited to stay.
00:55:34.320 --> 00:55:38.960
Thank you to Aisha, Domini, and Michael for trusting this conversation with their experiences.
00:55:39.599 --> 00:55:40.559
And thank you for listening.
00:55:40.719 --> 00:55:46.320
Maybe continue this one with someone in your world and ask them where do you feel most able to be completely yourself?
00:55:47.519 --> 00:55:48.719
This is the third conversation.
00:55:49.440 --> 00:55:52.320
The conversations that changes rarely happen first.