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Welcome in to Real Biz.
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I am your host Bubba Starts, and with me today,
a podcast OG and a man that needs no
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introduction, Jay Podvader Soderbergh.
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Jay, welcome to the show.
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Thanks, Bubba.
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Glad to be here.
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Yeah.
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I, you know, I don't do the lengthy
introductions.
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I I just, at this point, we are two men in this
podcasting space that is on shifting sands and
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someone who's been around the industry as long
as you have, knows more than I would say
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probably anyone out there what that means.
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Before we get into the conversations, of how
the, you know, podcasting world is changing and
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changes that are happening in your world, I
just wanna give you an opportunity to kinda
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give us a little bit of your backstory, and
then we'll pick it up from there.
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Yeah.
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I mean, it was so long ago, that I that I got
my start here in podcasting, literally day one
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of podcasting pretty much.
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I was pulled into an office at ESPN where I'd
been working in radio for at least eight years
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at that point and was told, we need to start
doing this thing called podcasting.
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I said, what's a podcast?
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And they said, we don't know either, but you're
gonna find out.
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And sure enough, I did.
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During the course of that, putting my
fingerprints on over 27 original podcasts
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either directly or indirectly at ESPN creating
their whole platform before I left to become
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the head of content at Blog Talk Radio and work
with this thing called dynamic ad insertion,
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which at the time, nobody wanted it.
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They hated it.
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Podcasters, especially the indie podcasters,
especially hated it.
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They're like, what?
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I don't want those ads.
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Not realizing that it was pretty much the only
way from advertising that they were going to
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make ads based on the size of their shows.
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And for the bigger shows, the corporate
podcasters, as I like to call them, it was a
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great way to benefit from that huge back
catalog that you had.
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And so selling that in the very early days of
dynamic ad insertion and blazing that path was
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a lot of fun.
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And then Spreaker took over the company and
blew out all the old BlogTalk Radio people.
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I ended up doing some consulting.
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I worked a little bit back in sports with the
Locked On network.
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Unfortunately, COVID came around and changed
the world, and that blew up, my world a little
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bit.
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And then ended up at the Cumulus Podcast
Network and worked there for the last five
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years helping drive their strategy and evolving
with the medium, getting involved more in
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video, and learning everything there is to know
about video and also learning what you need to
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know about video to be successful in
podcasting.
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Because audio to me is still prime, in this
medium, and it is still king in this medium, in
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my opinion.
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And for those that continue to chase after that
video, that shiny object, be careful what you
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wish for because, when the advertisers start
understanding the consumption of podcasting
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video versus the consumption of podcasting
audio, the ad dollars will switch back to where
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they belong.
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Yeah.
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And I think we're seeing a massive shift in
that.
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Obviously, YouTube is going through some big
changes in what they consider a view any longer
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on content, and I think that speaks a bit to,
things that you're saying that these
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advertisers are not seeing the ROI that, these
companies are charging an exorbitant amount for
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as they're looking to cut cost.
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And I think there was a a balloon, right,
during COVID.
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Podcasts, I think, became even more popular,
than they were.
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People were consuming more, right, working
less, and and looking for other things to do.
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And we're kind of back on the backside of that
now.
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Right?
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That that that wave has crested, and now we're
kind of figuring it all out again.
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And while I do everything is video, I record
everything on video, we are still very
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conscious of our audio only listeners.
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And and in many ways, our audio listeners are
our biggest fan base.
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So we wanna make sure that, yes, we are using
video for the purpose of it and getting the
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value of that, but in no way only creating for
video.
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It has to be consumable on an audio level.
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And I think that really speaks to just the the
conversations.
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I think that's what podcasts have always been,
an opportunity to just sit down.
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And and to me, I grew up listening to, you
know, talk radio with with my, grandfather.
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It was always AM radio in his truck when we
were cruising around, and it was just
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conversations there.
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And, being a huge sports fan as well and
consuming a lot of sports radio, that's always
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how I've approached my own podcast is it has to
be consumable on an audio format and not just
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sharing video clips and dying on that hill.
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No.
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And I think the best compliment I ever received
for podcasts that I was working on was a
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gentleman who was listening to one of our
recordings of the Fantasy Focus podcast back in
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the day.
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And when we were done, he said, look.
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I'm not into fantasy football at all.
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I'm not into sports at all, but I can sit and
listen to this show five days a week twenty
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four seven.
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So, I mean, I was like, hey.
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That's fantastic.
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Because that's the whole point of podcasting.
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It's the conversation that makes you feel like
you're a part of it even though you're not.
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You're literally the guy at the bar
eavesdropping in on that super interesting
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conversation that's happening right next to
you.
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And that's and that's the kind of feeling that
you're not gonna get from video.
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From video, I've gotta make sure that I keep
staring at this camera, which I don't do
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because I'm an audio guy.
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I grew up in audio.
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I can't remember to keep staring at the video
so that I'm talking to you who's watching right
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now.
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Now, again, I've been involved in this medium
for over twenty years now.
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I understand the evolution of the medium.
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I understand the value of video.
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I understand the opportunity that sits here for
podcasting as more and more people are getting
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smart televisions, and they're getting apps
like Roku and Tubi.
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And there's a place that this content can live
on on the television as well, and television
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requires moving pictures.
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People want to see some sort of movement, which
is why I'm gonna start using my hands here so I
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can, provide some movement.
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But at the end of the day, when it comes to a
podcast, what are we doing most of the times
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when we're listening to a podcast?
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We're driving.
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We're doing chores.
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It's an experience that we can do multiple
things at the same time.
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I can't watch a podcast while I'm driving to
work.
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I can't watch a podcast while I'm taking the
kids to the soccer game.
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I can't watch a podcast while I'm supposed to
be watching my kids playing in that sport out
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there on the field.
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I can listen to one, though, while I'm watching
the game, and I can do both things at the same
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time listening.
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And I think that's a super important point.
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On top of that, I've seen the consumption
stats.
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I know.
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And that's the little that's the little secret
that nobody is talking about right now.
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The consumption of video is not the same as the
consumption of audio for podcasting at all.
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I've seen it.
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I know it.
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It's inverse as a matter of fact.
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Industry standard for completion percentage on
audio is 75.
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Industry standard for video completion is 20%.
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YouTube has come out and said publicly, 20% is
good on their platform.
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We would freak out if we only had 20%
completion on the audio side.
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So these are the things that I hoping people
start to understand.
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And the whole point about the view, like,
what's a view, what's an engaged view, it's
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completely irrelevant.
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The view is the worst, most nonsensical metric
in all of data.
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It doesn't correlate with any other metric that
YouTube gives you, and YouTube gives you a
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phenomenal amount of data of your viewers on
their platform.
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They give you new viewers.
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They give you returning viewers.
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The one number that you want to keep attention
to when it comes to your audience are the
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uniques.
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Ignore the view.
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It's a worthless metric.
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Engaged views, probably just as worthless.
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The only thing that you can tell by a large
view number is that you have a large audience.
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That's it.
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But the actual audience that you wanna be
looking at are your uniques and your returning
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viewers because those that is the core of your
audience.
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New users, you're hoping that you're working
that algorithm to start working for you, and
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there's ways that you can work the algorithm to
increase those, and there's metrics to look at
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to see if it's working.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I think the the focus is first that you have to
have good content.
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Right?
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You you have to be a good personality and
someone that, people would want to listen to or
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to watch, you know, regardless of the of the
medium that you're on.
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You have to be likable, I think, as a start.
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And then beyond that, can you be interesting,
or can you have interesting guests and have
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interesting conversations to keep them coming
back?
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I I didn't divest a lot of time in in building
my platform over the last few years and now
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several platforms underneath the scene projects
banner by chasing views and by chasing the
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algorithm.
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Is there more that we could do to, you know,
invest into learning and not necessarily gaming
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the algorithm, but with our content, making
sure that we are feeding and continuing to feed
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that beast in the way that it wants to be fed.
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Right?
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I'm not throwing a carrot to a bear.
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But we are I I was always really focused on
community, and I think that's something that
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you're speaking to with the metrics that you're
measuring, those unique and returning viewers
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and visitors to you you know, either it's your
YouTube channel or your podcast downloads or
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whatever it may be, that that's the community
that you are driving.
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Those are the people that are going to support
you.
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And outside of just being monetized, which is a
moving goalpost anyway, these are people that
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would be valuable to advertisers outside of a
dynamic ad insertion.
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Right?
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To allow you to say, hey.
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We have 300 people, and it may be even a small
number, but they tune in every single week.
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They come back, consume our content, and that
that can be valuable to a myriad of businesses
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if you have the wherewithal and a little bit of
sales drive and know how to get out there and
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to provide that value to any number of
advertisers, not just the big five, you know,
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that are out there, you know, on on every
podcast that would seem.
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Well, this is this goes back to the whole the
riches are in the niches.
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Right?
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So 300 football watchers is not necessarily
valuable to an advertiser.
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Right?
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Because millions of people are watching
football, and millions of people are doing
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podcasts on football.
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But 300 yacht owners is super valuable because
there aren't a lot of yacht owners, and the
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ones that they do own yachts usually have big
pockets.
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And those are the people that the advertisers
obviously want to get to.
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So understanding what your core audience is,
understanding who this podcast is for, all
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helps in terms of how do you end up selling it
to a potential advertiser at the end of the day
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to help make your business work and
understanding what it's going to take to help
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that advertiser spend their money with you.
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I think one thing that a lot of podcasters I've
spoken to over the years get wrong is they
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think when they sign up an agreement with a
podcast network, for instance, they're getting
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paid to podcast.
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No.
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No.
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No.
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No.
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You're not getting paid to podcast.
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You're getting paid because there's an
advertiser that believes your podcast can make
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them money by selling their product.
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So if you don't sell their product to your
audience, you will no longer be making any
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money, which is why these ginormous contracts
that end up getting signed by some of the
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bigger podcasters are quite fascinating.
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I read an article not not only a couple weeks
ago by, Steve Raises on LinkedIn who mentioned
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that a lot of these contracts are being signed
knowing that they're not going to make that
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money back.
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But there are reasons, strategic reasons why
these contracts are being sold.
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One, so that you understand that you are a
player in this party known as podcasting so you
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can attract more podcasters.
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And the more podcasters that you bring in, the
more likely is you're going to make up that
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revenue that you're going to lose on that one
big contract with the other podcasts that are
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part of your network.
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And two is exactly that, bringing in more
podcasters into the network.
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Because, ultimately, if I've sold, you know,
Joe Rogan for, you know, however much money it
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was, $500,000,000 or whatever the number
happens to be.
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I know I'm not gonna make that back in
advertising.
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However, if I have Joe Rogan on my network, I
can tell people I have Joe Rogan on my network,
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and you probably want to be part of the Joe
Rogan network.
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That's where I'm going to end up making back
all of that money.
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And by signing those podcasters to lesser deals
or perhaps not even signing them to a a minimum
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guarantee deal, maybe I convince them that the
revenue share is enough for them.
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You know, we're gonna make you x amount of
dollars no matter what.
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So if you just take this on a rolling monthly
basis, we're gonna be in good shape.
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Both of us are gonna make money.
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And I think that's the part that ends up
getting missed in the conversations with some
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of these podcasters out there.
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Yeah.
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They they don't understand.
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In the business world, you would call a Joe
Rogan deal a loss leader.
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You know that the ROI is not going to be there
on that deal specifically, but it has a
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different function.
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Right?
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It's never going to make up a $500,000,000 in
ad revenue on its own, but it's going to build
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that brand authority, you know, and for a
Spotify, when they were first getting into
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podcasting, a great move on their part because
Joe I mean, not only does he have a large fan
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base, but he is the ear of a lot of people
around him that have their own podcast as well.
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Right?
241
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It's not just signing Joe.
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It's like, hey.
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Can you get Theo and and everybody else in your
circle, Bert, and everybody to bring their
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stuff over here as well.
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And maybe there's some, like you said, some
lesser exclusive deals that they're able to
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work or just having them in that circle.
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I think it's important.
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Now, Jay, you came from the world of radio and
how I've always looked at my podcast and what
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we do is is some more similar to how a radio or
TV network maybe runs without the overhead of
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the broadcast, you know, a 100,000 watt tower
or, you know, a a a TV satellite to broadcast
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that onto.
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But I've always brought that mentality to where
I'll go find the advertisers on my own space.
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And and and a lot of what you're kind of
addressing here and I think from the
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independent side, what a lot more independent
podcasters can do is you're not trying to chase
255
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a single check from a a big podcast network.
256
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You're it's learning how to cash maybe smaller
checks and to treat yourself as someone who is
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capable of selling the product and aligning
yourself with brands out there that makes sense
258
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for you.
259
00:16:45,230 --> 00:16:51,310
How is it the same in podcasting and how you
look at it compared to your days in radio?
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This well, the similarities mainly lie in the
in the content.
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Right?
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00:16:57,284 --> 00:17:03,924
Ultimately, back in the day in radio, when
radio was awesome I'll just throw that little
263
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shot out there.
264
00:17:05,444 --> 00:17:08,404
When radio was awesome, it was all about the
community.
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Right?
266
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Everybody listened.
267
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Everybody tuned in to that DJ, to that show
because it was a moment that you had to tune
268
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in.
269
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You had to listen because you didn't want to
miss what was next.
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You sat in your car when you got to your
destination the middle of a bit or in the
271
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middle of an interview because you couldn't
miss what was next.
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And with radio, once it went out there, it was
out there and it was gone forever.
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You didn't ever got to hear it ever again.
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With podcasting, the difference is that
everything on the Internet lives forever.
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So you can always go back and get it and listen
to it however you want, whenever you want.
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I think the other part about podcasting that's
slightly different than radio and is a super
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advantage for podcasting.
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And this is what we've told people back in
those early days is don't damn one of your
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tributaries.
280
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Create a revenue river that is fed by numerous
revenue opportunities.
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Don't just accept programmatic digital ad
insertion.
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Don't just accept host spread ad placements in
your podcast.
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Create a subscription network for those
returning viewers and for those p ones that you
284
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have on your podcast.
285
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Create merchandise that you can, benefit from.
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There's plenty of different opportunities out
there where you can create merchandise at
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you're you're not gonna make a ton of money off
of it.
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00:18:38,170 --> 00:18:43,049
You're gonna take less of a percentage off of
what gets sold, but you don't have to worry
289
00:18:43,049 --> 00:18:48,170
about building an inventory that's gonna sit
and rot in a warehouse somewhere.
290
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You can sell it on demand just like your
podcast is on demand.
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00:18:52,724 --> 00:18:57,605
Once you get to a certain number of people that
are demanding more and more merchandise, then
292
00:18:57,605 --> 00:19:02,965
you can worry about how do I make how do I do
create a warehouse worth of merchandise that's
293
00:19:02,965 --> 00:19:04,649
rotting away somewhere?
294
00:19:06,409 --> 00:19:12,089
All of these things are super important to an
independent podcaster, because you probably
295
00:19:12,089 --> 00:19:16,009
aren't going to be of the size where
advertising is gonna be the sole thing that's
296
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gonna bring in most of your revenue.
297
00:19:18,034 --> 00:19:23,075
You might find that you're gonna be more
popular on a subscription basis with people
298
00:19:23,075 --> 00:19:24,674
that are gonna donate to you.
299
00:19:25,154 --> 00:19:27,474
I'm a huge fan of Adam Curry.
300
00:19:27,474 --> 00:19:33,710
When I was learning what a podcast was way back
in the day, it was Adam Curry and Leo Laporte.
301
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Those were the two people that I was listening
to the most about how to create a podcast, what
302
00:19:38,429 --> 00:19:39,629
a podcast was.
303
00:19:39,789 --> 00:19:46,255
And Adam Curry has always pushed the value for
value model, which is it's not it's not
304
00:19:46,255 --> 00:19:47,615
donations.
305
00:19:47,615 --> 00:19:50,894
It's not, it's not a subscription.
306
00:19:50,974 --> 00:19:56,734
It's a if you're listening to this show and you
have a certain value in mind of what this show
307
00:19:56,734 --> 00:20:01,130
is worth to you, well, then please send in that
amount.
308
00:20:01,130 --> 00:20:05,610
And if you feel like the value is zero, then
you're not going to send anything.
309
00:20:05,610 --> 00:20:10,570
And then I'm not going to continue creating
this content because you valued it at zero.
310
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Ultimately, the value that you are producing
will come back to you from your audience, and
311
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your audience is going to tell you how valuable
that content is.
312
00:20:22,284 --> 00:20:27,289
It can be a scary proposition for somebody
who's just starting off, and their name isn't
313
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Adam Curry.
314
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But at the end of the day, you're going to
know, can I do this as a profit, or can I do
315
00:20:35,609 --> 00:20:36,890
this as a hobby?
316
00:20:37,130 --> 00:20:43,525
And that's what the independent podcaster has
to realize is you might come to a point where
317
00:20:43,525 --> 00:20:49,204
the podcast really is only for you, because you
just get so much enjoyment from doing it.
318
00:20:49,204 --> 00:20:55,339
You have to do it, versus I need this to be my
life source.
319
00:20:55,339 --> 00:20:57,740
I need this to put food on the table.
320
00:20:57,740 --> 00:20:59,339
I need this to pay the bills.
321
00:20:59,660 --> 00:21:05,259
If that's the case, if that's the kind of thing
that you need, then you need to change your
322
00:21:05,259 --> 00:21:12,595
mindset and create content that is going to
become more sellable and more sellable to an
323
00:21:12,595 --> 00:21:13,474
advertiser.
324
00:21:14,355 --> 00:21:14,755
Yeah.
325
00:21:14,755 --> 00:21:21,955
And I dove into this, not exactly in the very
beginning knowing that it needed to be, putting
326
00:21:21,955 --> 00:21:22,914
food on the table.
327
00:21:23,369 --> 00:21:25,849
But within six months where it was like, okay.
328
00:21:25,849 --> 00:21:28,889
I enjoy this enough that I could do this the
rest of my life.
329
00:21:29,210 --> 00:21:33,289
And and and there was that this crack, right,
that that we've kinda been in over the last
330
00:21:33,289 --> 00:21:38,144
two, three years where it's very obvious that
the media landscape has changed.
331
00:21:38,144 --> 00:21:43,585
People are not consuming it, really, you know,
from just satellite or from, you know, cable
332
00:21:43,585 --> 00:21:46,865
TV, and we no longer have just three big
networks.
333
00:21:46,865 --> 00:21:52,700
Everyone is streaming fast and Roku and and all
the things are happening that if you can find
334
00:21:52,700 --> 00:21:59,740
where you fit in and and and treat your podcast
as a business or your multiple podcasts like we
335
00:21:59,740 --> 00:22:05,820
have here as a business, that there will be a
maybe not millions of dollars like some people
336
00:22:05,820 --> 00:22:11,045
are out there making, but you can, make a a
decent living and survive yourself and do
337
00:22:11,045 --> 00:22:13,845
something that is incredibly rewarding to you.
338
00:22:14,005 --> 00:22:18,565
And that was really the allure to me, to be
able to I love having conversations.
339
00:22:18,565 --> 00:22:19,924
I love meeting new people.
340
00:22:20,005 --> 00:22:25,289
This gives me the opportunity to do it from my
home in the small town in South Dakota that I
341
00:22:25,289 --> 00:22:27,690
live in and to connect with all kinds of
people.
342
00:22:27,690 --> 00:22:32,730
I've interviewed rock and roll hall of famers,
NFL, you know, former NFL guys.
343
00:22:32,730 --> 00:22:38,365
We get a chance to work alongside, you know,
the Minnesota Vikings with some of our coverage
344
00:22:38,365 --> 00:22:42,924
that we're doing and to interview some some of
the most amazing people on the planet that
345
00:22:42,924 --> 00:22:45,565
without a podcast, I would have never had those
opportunities.
346
00:22:45,565 --> 00:22:52,169
This conversation today, Jay, doesn't happen
unless I dive all into it and am just really
347
00:22:52,169 --> 00:22:55,450
focused on getting better at the craft.
348
00:22:55,450 --> 00:22:58,089
And that also means the business side of that.
349
00:22:58,169 --> 00:23:02,169
We're very fortunate to have some advertisers
on a few of our programs.
350
00:23:02,250 --> 00:23:07,244
We're not yet big enough, and now that that
goalpost has moved on the monetization side to
351
00:23:07,244 --> 00:23:12,125
be garnering large checks from, you know,
dynamic ad insertion and a lot of these things.
352
00:23:12,125 --> 00:23:14,845
So it it was how is it going to make money?
353
00:23:14,845 --> 00:23:19,599
Whether that's on the content production side
and working more as a promotional piece for
354
00:23:19,599 --> 00:23:24,559
businesses out there, or it's, you know, why we
dipped heavily into sports because people are
355
00:23:24,559 --> 00:23:29,039
consuming sports content and people are
passionate about sports teams.
356
00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:29,440
Okay.
357
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:34,214
Well, we'll start a a show about the team that
you like, and we'll put your name all over it.
358
00:23:34,214 --> 00:23:39,894
I I don't necessarily care too much myself
about what I'm talking about as long as I'm
359
00:23:39,894 --> 00:23:41,974
talking and there's a check at the end of it.
360
00:23:42,295 --> 00:23:43,974
It all goes back to that why.
361
00:23:44,295 --> 00:23:50,080
As long as you understand what the why is, then
you're going to create the perfect piece of
362
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:51,839
content every single time.
363
00:23:52,559 --> 00:23:56,080
And if you don't understand what your why is,
you're not.
364
00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:57,200
You're not going to connect.
365
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:01,765
You're not gonna make those goals because
you're you don't have a mission statement
366
00:24:01,765 --> 00:24:05,365
that's guiding you towards what that goal is.
367
00:24:05,525 --> 00:24:09,444
So if you don't know what your why is, you
should not be podcasting.
368
00:24:09,684 --> 00:24:16,269
If you do know what your why is, you can create
strategies as to how do you get to the answer
369
00:24:16,269 --> 00:24:17,390
to your why.
370
00:24:17,710 --> 00:24:20,990
And that's how you're gonna end up building a
successful podcast.
371
00:24:20,990 --> 00:24:24,910
It sounds like, Bubba, you've you've done
exactly that, and you're on the right path.
372
00:24:25,630 --> 00:24:27,470
Well, I appreciate you saying so.
373
00:24:27,470 --> 00:24:30,590
It's taken a lot of spaghetti on the wall to
find that path, though.
374
00:24:30,924 --> 00:24:36,765
We we've we've developed probably over 15
podcasts in the last two years, and some shows
375
00:24:36,765 --> 00:24:39,724
have had different iterations of of what they
are.
376
00:24:39,724 --> 00:24:45,644
And and I was never worried about and I think a
lot of people and a lot of podcasters early on
377
00:24:46,390 --> 00:24:52,150
either get a little I I don't wanna say even
burnt out, but discouraged that they're not
378
00:24:52,150 --> 00:24:55,029
getting the viewership and they're not things
aren't taking off.
379
00:24:55,029 --> 00:24:59,990
This is a long game that you are getting into
and playing unless you are already someone
380
00:25:00,069 --> 00:25:04,795
extremely famous and people are paying
attention to you, it's gonna be very hard to
381
00:25:04,795 --> 00:25:06,634
build that community around you.
382
00:25:06,634 --> 00:25:10,315
I was fortunate enough because of my
involvement in our, you know, local and
383
00:25:10,315 --> 00:25:15,849
regional music scene that at least I had a
network of people to interview that were
384
00:25:15,849 --> 00:25:19,690
interesting and had people that were going to
consume that on their own.
385
00:25:19,690 --> 00:25:20,009
Right?
386
00:25:20,009 --> 00:25:25,929
And being a a musician myself, I was very
comfortable being in front of a camera or on a
387
00:25:25,929 --> 00:25:31,095
stage in front of a microphone, you know,
behind a microphone that I had a lot of
388
00:25:31,095 --> 00:25:35,335
advantages to someone who's, you know, working
behind a desk all day as a podcast fan and
389
00:25:35,335 --> 00:25:36,695
goes, I wanna start a podcast.
390
00:25:36,695 --> 00:25:37,255
Right?
391
00:25:37,815 --> 00:25:43,609
So I had some a leg up on a lot of those
people, but I've still had to spend two years
392
00:25:43,609 --> 00:25:49,130
getting these reps in, doing over a thousand
interviews in the last two years to really hone
393
00:25:49,130 --> 00:25:51,210
in on what my skill is.
394
00:25:51,210 --> 00:25:56,890
And and I found that, you know, from from the
life that I have lived, the amount of emotional
395
00:25:56,890 --> 00:26:01,054
intelligence that I bring to every
conversation, that life experience that I bring
396
00:26:01,054 --> 00:26:06,414
with me to be able to just get on a level with
anyone, whether they're a a hall of fame
397
00:26:06,414 --> 00:26:11,789
athlete or they are a small business owner, I
can find that common ground.
398
00:26:11,869 --> 00:26:14,029
And, you know, that works for me.
399
00:26:14,109 --> 00:26:16,109
That may not work for the next podcast.
400
00:26:16,109 --> 00:26:17,950
You have to work to find it.
401
00:26:17,950 --> 00:26:23,309
Don't expect your first iteration of what you,
you know, what you thought you were going to do
402
00:26:23,309 --> 00:26:25,309
and your podcast was going to be all about.
403
00:26:25,734 --> 00:26:27,255
It it may not be it.
404
00:26:27,255 --> 00:26:32,454
And you have to be willing if you want to be in
this and your why is to be a successful
405
00:26:32,454 --> 00:26:36,374
podcaster, you have to be willing to change and
willing to be adaptable.
406
00:26:36,694 --> 00:26:42,450
Well, that's the beauty of podcasting is you do
have that ability to adapt to what your
407
00:26:42,450 --> 00:26:45,249
audience is telling you what they want.
408
00:26:45,650 --> 00:26:50,450
Now if that's not what you want, you have to
make that ultimate decision.
409
00:26:50,529 --> 00:26:52,289
Like, well, I don't wanna do that.
410
00:26:52,474 --> 00:26:55,034
Well, your audience is telling you what they
want.
411
00:26:55,035 --> 00:26:59,755
If you wanna do what you're still doing and
your audience is telling you that's not what we
412
00:26:59,755 --> 00:27:04,394
want, you're gonna have to come you're you're
gonna have a come to Jesus at some point.
413
00:27:05,069 --> 00:27:08,669
I've worked with a whole slew of different
types of podcasters.
414
00:27:08,669 --> 00:27:12,989
I've worked with very unfamous people, and I've
worked with some very famous people.
415
00:27:13,230 --> 00:27:17,630
And they've all had varying degrees of success,
and it all, of course, came back to the why.
416
00:27:18,105 --> 00:27:24,504
I've worked with some very famous people that
have huge audiences, huge potential audiences
417
00:27:24,585 --> 00:27:29,224
that did podcasts that got under 100 downloads
an episode.
418
00:27:29,545 --> 00:27:33,304
And the whole reason was because, one, they
didn't know their why.
419
00:27:33,779 --> 00:27:37,299
Two, they weren't delivering content that was
of any value.
420
00:27:37,539 --> 00:27:42,660
And three, because they were delivering content
in a manner where they thought they were
421
00:27:42,660 --> 00:27:48,485
getting paid, they didn't have any authenticity
to what it was that they were doing, and the
422
00:27:48,485 --> 00:27:51,605
audience can sniff that out in seconds.
423
00:27:51,845 --> 00:27:56,164
If they can tell that you're not passionate
about what it is that you're talking about,
424
00:27:56,565 --> 00:27:58,085
they will be like, nope.
425
00:27:58,244 --> 00:27:59,525
This isn't for me.
426
00:27:59,605 --> 00:28:01,365
I can tell you're reading off of a card.
427
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,119
I can see you reading off of a card.
428
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:06,039
You know?
429
00:28:06,039 --> 00:28:08,359
It's like, hello.
430
00:28:10,120 --> 00:28:10,519
Yeah.
431
00:28:10,519 --> 00:28:12,759
It's it's all it all goes back to you.
432
00:28:12,759 --> 00:28:15,240
You have to be passionate about what it is that
you're talking about.
433
00:28:15,605 --> 00:28:20,805
You have to know what your why is, and you have
to listen to your audience and deliver to your
434
00:28:20,805 --> 00:28:23,044
audience exactly what it is that they want.
435
00:28:23,125 --> 00:28:26,085
When you do all those things, you're gonna be
on the right path.
436
00:28:26,484 --> 00:28:30,700
Audience growth, is, as you said, a very long
game.
437
00:28:30,700 --> 00:28:32,619
It's going to happen slowly.
438
00:28:32,859 --> 00:28:38,460
It's gonna happen naturally, but that is the
best type of growth because those people are
439
00:28:38,460 --> 00:28:40,059
with you forever.
440
00:28:40,299 --> 00:28:42,059
They're not gonna break away from you.
441
00:28:42,059 --> 00:28:47,474
As long as you're loyal to your audience, your
audience is going to be fiercely loyal back to
442
00:28:47,474 --> 00:28:52,434
you, and that is what's ultimately gonna help
you grow because, like you said, it comes back
443
00:28:52,434 --> 00:28:53,315
to community.
444
00:28:53,634 --> 00:28:55,154
Everyone's gonna start bonding.
445
00:28:55,154 --> 00:28:57,714
Everyone's going to know exactly what the show
is about.
446
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:02,279
Everyone's gonna know exactly what this
community is about, and they're going to bond
447
00:29:02,279 --> 00:29:03,079
over that.
448
00:29:03,079 --> 00:29:06,279
And that is a bond that no price.
449
00:29:06,279 --> 00:29:08,119
There's no price on that bond.
450
00:29:08,759 --> 00:29:15,045
And as long as you remain loyal to them and you
serve them exactly what it is they want, they
451
00:29:15,045 --> 00:29:17,924
will be loyal and help you in the long run.
452
00:29:18,644 --> 00:29:18,965
Yeah.
453
00:29:18,965 --> 00:29:23,924
And I think there's some really great examples
of that and a further monetization are live
454
00:29:23,924 --> 00:29:29,700
events, you know, bringing your your podcast
and your community together in person, which I
455
00:29:29,700 --> 00:29:34,420
think, you know, regardless of how you feel
about their content, you know, the legion of
456
00:29:34,420 --> 00:29:37,380
skanks have it down to a t.
457
00:29:37,380 --> 00:29:37,700
Right?
458
00:29:37,700 --> 00:29:44,474
A podcast like kill Tony in that world that
started out with maybe 10 people in the
459
00:29:44,474 --> 00:29:49,515
audience and no views and nothing on its own is
now selling out, you know, multiple nights in a
460
00:29:49,515 --> 00:29:54,890
row at Madison Square Garden and continues to
grow and build because, one, you're creating
461
00:29:54,890 --> 00:30:00,089
good content, and two, you're very conscious of
what what it is that your audience likes and
462
00:30:00,089 --> 00:30:01,529
giving them more of that.
463
00:30:01,609 --> 00:30:02,009
Right?
464
00:30:02,009 --> 00:30:04,170
And I think that's incredibly important.
465
00:30:04,170 --> 00:30:08,335
I I I love, you know, those two in particular
because they are different.
466
00:30:08,335 --> 00:30:11,215
They are not just an interview basis to it.
467
00:30:11,215 --> 00:30:12,255
It's entertainment.
468
00:30:12,255 --> 00:30:16,174
The the entertainment value of it is
exceptional.
469
00:30:16,174 --> 00:30:21,960
And I think it's really amazing to see what
guys who nobody knew their names, you know,
470
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:26,600
ten, fifteen years ago have slowly built up and
built up to that.
471
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:31,080
Now granted, they have relationships with some
of the biggest podcasters in the world, which
472
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:37,545
no doubt helps on that to get a little bit, but
anyone is one step away from that relationship
473
00:30:37,545 --> 00:30:38,184
building.
474
00:30:38,184 --> 00:30:42,105
And the more you're getting out and the more
people you're connecting with, you never know
475
00:30:42,105 --> 00:30:46,424
when that big break in this world is going to
be that viral moment.
476
00:30:46,424 --> 00:30:47,545
So keep going.
477
00:30:47,545 --> 00:30:47,785
Right?
478
00:30:48,289 --> 00:30:51,569
You know, keep podcasting and and keep going
because you never know.
479
00:30:51,730 --> 00:30:56,609
And even a Joe Rogan, you know, kinda steps
back and and he he recounts the story quite a
480
00:30:56,609 --> 00:31:01,085
bit on his podcast that, like, I didn't know
the podcast was successful till, like, five
481
00:31:01,085 --> 00:31:02,365
five years in.
482
00:31:02,525 --> 00:31:05,964
And then finally, you know, I'm at one of my
shows and going, like, who listens to the
483
00:31:05,964 --> 00:31:06,684
podcast?
484
00:31:06,765 --> 00:31:09,804
And and the crowd goes nuts, and he's like, oh,
people are listening.
485
00:31:09,964 --> 00:31:10,365
Right?
486
00:31:10,365 --> 00:31:15,085
Because I I think when you're invested in just
the creation process and letting things play
487
00:31:15,085 --> 00:31:18,130
out how they're going to, you're you're going
to find that community.
488
00:31:18,130 --> 00:31:22,690
Because not everyone is going to follow you on
your social media and and respond and comment
489
00:31:22,690 --> 00:31:27,490
on everything that you're doing and give you a
five star rating as much as you may ask for it
490
00:31:27,490 --> 00:31:28,769
in the world as well.
491
00:31:30,345 --> 00:31:34,904
You are you're gonna find your people, and your
people are going to find you.
492
00:31:35,545 --> 00:31:40,424
Jay, I wanna get into a little bit of what your
future is going to look like.
493
00:31:40,585 --> 00:31:46,470
Obviously, just being part of a, you know,
downsizing of the podcast division over at
494
00:31:46,470 --> 00:31:52,549
Cumulus, a a a, you know, casualty of that, if
we shall say.
495
00:31:52,630 --> 00:31:57,269
You are now yourself kind of back at square one
in your podcasting journey.
496
00:31:57,715 --> 00:32:03,235
And and I'm interested to know, you know, with
all of this experience that you have not only
497
00:32:03,235 --> 00:32:08,434
in the industry, you know, behind the
microphone, but also in the business of it,
498
00:32:08,434 --> 00:32:14,650
what are your takes on how the industry, is
moving now and what you're gonna do to get back
499
00:32:14,650 --> 00:32:15,690
into the pool.
500
00:32:16,410 --> 00:32:16,890
Yeah.
501
00:32:16,890 --> 00:32:20,490
I think everything for me is on the table.
502
00:32:20,490 --> 00:32:22,569
As you mentioned, back to square one.
503
00:32:22,970 --> 00:32:27,674
The beauty of being back to square one in
podcasting, though, is that I know exactly what
504
00:32:27,674 --> 00:32:28,234
it takes.
505
00:32:28,234 --> 00:32:30,234
I know what what needs to be done.
506
00:32:30,234 --> 00:32:35,114
I know where I know where the bodies are
buried, to put it in another way.
507
00:32:36,234 --> 00:32:38,794
I can help people in all facets.
508
00:32:39,460 --> 00:32:41,380
I've worked with independent podcasters.
509
00:32:41,380 --> 00:32:42,819
I've worked with famous podcasters.
510
00:32:42,819 --> 00:32:44,739
I've worked with corporate podcasters.
511
00:32:45,299 --> 00:32:50,259
I know the strategies that work for all three
of those types of podcasters.
512
00:32:50,659 --> 00:32:54,535
I can help people in any manner or facet in
that sense.
513
00:32:54,535 --> 00:32:57,815
So, I've done some consulting in the past.
514
00:32:58,055 --> 00:33:00,295
I will gladly do consulting in the future.
515
00:33:00,295 --> 00:33:04,775
You can reach me, on my LinkedIn, on Podvader
on LinkedIn.
516
00:33:04,775 --> 00:33:05,894
Podvader is everywhere.
517
00:33:05,894 --> 00:33:09,015
But you if you wanna reach me, that's probably
the best way to get me.
518
00:33:09,015 --> 00:33:12,339
Linkedin.com/podvader.
519
00:33:13,940 --> 00:33:20,420
And and you can DM me there or ask or ask to,
be one of the followers or whatever LinkedIn's
520
00:33:20,420 --> 00:33:21,140
verbiage is.
521
00:33:21,140 --> 00:33:22,099
I don't even know anymore.
522
00:33:23,164 --> 00:33:27,565
Every every social media platform got their got
their own verbiage.
523
00:33:27,724 --> 00:33:30,444
But I'm but but I'm on I'm on x.
524
00:33:30,765 --> 00:33:31,964
I'm on Facebook.
525
00:33:31,964 --> 00:33:33,164
I can't believe I called it x.
526
00:33:33,164 --> 00:33:35,005
I I usually still call it Twitter.
527
00:33:35,325 --> 00:33:36,684
But I'm I'm I'm there too.
528
00:33:37,319 --> 00:33:38,759
You can follow me there.
529
00:33:38,919 --> 00:33:43,000
I don't I'm not I haven't been that active
because I haven't been allowed to be that
530
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:47,719
active, but I'm probably gonna be a little bit
more active these days.
531
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:55,625
And, honestly, you know, the corporate world is
is sort of I I think some of the things that
532
00:33:55,625 --> 00:34:01,465
are happening in the corporate side of
podcasting, there's a little bit of there's a
533
00:34:01,465 --> 00:34:07,170
lot of wishes, I think, that are happening, and
not a lot of those wishes are obviously based
534
00:34:07,170 --> 00:34:08,050
in reality.
535
00:34:08,449 --> 00:34:14,449
And I think that I come from a space where I'm
a 100% based in reality.
536
00:34:14,449 --> 00:34:16,449
I look at the metrics.
537
00:34:16,449 --> 00:34:17,410
I look at the stats.
538
00:34:18,035 --> 00:34:24,835
I dive deep into the data, which keeps me
grounded into exactly what is working and what
539
00:34:24,835 --> 00:34:25,954
isn't working.
540
00:34:26,114 --> 00:34:28,755
And I'm not saying that video isn't working.
541
00:34:28,914 --> 00:34:35,329
What I'm saying is your video strategy has to
be different than what your audio strategy is.
542
00:34:35,650 --> 00:34:42,050
And, oh, by the way, that was figured out many,
many years ago because we have television
543
00:34:42,050 --> 00:34:44,289
stations and radio stations.
544
00:34:44,449 --> 00:34:46,804
They're not the same station.
545
00:34:46,885 --> 00:34:51,284
They're different mediums, and they're
different mediums, for a reason because people
546
00:34:51,284 --> 00:34:54,085
interact with them in a different manner.
547
00:34:54,324 --> 00:34:57,924
So you can work with them in a different
manner.
548
00:34:57,924 --> 00:34:59,764
You can sell them in a different manner.
549
00:35:00,110 --> 00:35:02,110
Video is obviously visual.
550
00:35:02,349 --> 00:35:08,349
I can create an ad that happens right now that
I can continue talking about what it is that
551
00:35:08,349 --> 00:35:11,070
I'm talking about that doesn't get interrupted.
552
00:35:11,070 --> 00:35:15,344
But there's still an ad there, and somebody's
going to see it, and somebody's still going to
553
00:35:15,344 --> 00:35:16,625
be impressed by it.
554
00:35:16,704 --> 00:35:21,825
And because you didn't interrupt this
conversation to play that ad, they're actually
555
00:35:21,825 --> 00:35:28,130
probably more likely to go and look into what
that product is all about that my host just
556
00:35:28,130 --> 00:35:29,090
told me, hey.
557
00:35:29,090 --> 00:35:33,090
This is important to me for you to go and
support the show.
558
00:35:33,730 --> 00:35:38,530
There's a lot of old things that we've
forgotten as podcasters that we don't do
559
00:35:38,530 --> 00:35:38,849
anymore.
560
00:35:39,315 --> 00:35:41,795
We don't we forgotten the call to action.
561
00:35:41,795 --> 00:35:45,474
We forgotten to remind our audience that, hey.
562
00:35:45,954 --> 00:35:46,275
Yeah.
563
00:35:46,275 --> 00:35:48,755
Ads suck, but they're here for a reason.
564
00:35:48,755 --> 00:35:52,355
They're here to help me continue to create this
content that you want.
565
00:35:53,099 --> 00:35:58,940
So the more that I can impress on the audience
that you're helping me out by purchasing these
566
00:35:58,940 --> 00:36:05,099
products is key to the success of the
podcaster, especially from a business point of
567
00:36:05,099 --> 00:36:05,260
view.
568
00:36:05,724 --> 00:36:08,125
But that goes beyond just the independent
podcast.
569
00:36:08,125 --> 00:36:10,684
That goes for the corporate podcasters as well.
570
00:36:11,085 --> 00:36:14,125
They seem to have forgotten what advertising is
all about.
571
00:36:14,204 --> 00:36:18,989
They seem to think that they're going to get
advertisers just to make money, not
572
00:36:18,989 --> 00:36:22,429
understanding that at the end of the day, you
gotta sell that product.
573
00:36:22,429 --> 00:36:27,309
And if your content's not selling that product,
then you have a problem in your chain.
574
00:36:27,710 --> 00:36:30,750
So make sure that your podcasters are selling
the product.
575
00:36:31,554 --> 00:36:33,074
And how are they selling that product?
576
00:36:33,074 --> 00:36:37,554
They're telling their audience that the product
is important to them to help keep this content
577
00:36:37,554 --> 00:36:38,755
coming for them.
578
00:36:39,315 --> 00:36:46,195
And on top of that, we talked about some of
those other podcasters that you mentioned, how
579
00:36:45,789 --> 00:36:49,949
they've made friends with some of the biggest
podcasters in the world.
580
00:36:50,190 --> 00:36:51,789
Well, that's part of podcasting.
581
00:36:51,789 --> 00:36:54,750
That's part of your evolution as a podcaster
too.
582
00:36:54,750 --> 00:36:57,630
It's not just about building your own
community.
583
00:36:57,630 --> 00:37:01,150
It's about becoming part of the larger
podcasting community.
584
00:37:01,545 --> 00:37:08,424
And as you make those friends, moving along the
channel, they can help you build your audience
585
00:37:08,424 --> 00:37:09,545
at the same time.
586
00:37:09,784 --> 00:37:13,944
So that when you do bump into Joe Rogan and you
find out that you have a lot of common
587
00:37:13,944 --> 00:37:18,989
interests and that he does take a liking to you
and enjoys your content just as much as you
588
00:37:18,989 --> 00:37:25,789
enjoy his, he'll recommend your show to his
audience, and he obviously has a ginormous
589
00:37:25,789 --> 00:37:26,269
audience.
590
00:37:26,765 --> 00:37:30,765
So I'm not saying, like, everybody's gonna go
become best friends with Joe Rogan.
591
00:37:31,405 --> 00:37:36,285
But at the end of the day, you are gonna become
friends with somebody at some point, and that's
592
00:37:36,285 --> 00:37:41,085
the beauty of podcast conferences like Podcast
Movement, which is coming up in September.
593
00:37:42,059 --> 00:37:45,739
And so I'll be much more involved in a lot of
these things.
594
00:37:45,739 --> 00:37:48,059
And I think that's part of it.
595
00:37:48,059 --> 00:37:54,700
Corporate corporate podcasting has gone to a
back to the old days of, like, well, you are my
596
00:37:54,700 --> 00:37:56,380
enemy, and I have to fight against you.
597
00:37:56,380 --> 00:38:01,505
And I've I can't share any information with you
because the but that's not what podcasting is
598
00:38:01,505 --> 00:38:01,985
all about.
599
00:38:01,985 --> 00:38:07,344
Podcasting is all about sharing and helping
others in the rising tide lifting all boats.
600
00:38:07,585 --> 00:38:12,820
That doesn't happen a lot in the corporate
side, And I think that's part of the problem
601
00:38:12,820 --> 00:38:13,940
for the corporates.
602
00:38:14,019 --> 00:38:19,619
They don't understand how to be successful in
this medium because they think it's all about,
603
00:38:19,860 --> 00:38:24,179
you know, building their walled castle and
keeping the enemy out.
604
00:38:24,575 --> 00:38:30,015
Whereas in podcasting, it's about bringing
everybody in, and everybody helps contribute to
605
00:38:30,015 --> 00:38:31,454
the success of everything.
606
00:38:32,974 --> 00:38:33,375
Yeah.
607
00:38:33,375 --> 00:38:35,535
They they kind of missed the point.
608
00:38:35,775 --> 00:38:41,210
They backed up the dump trucks of money and all
the brake trucks, right, and unloaded into it,
609
00:38:41,210 --> 00:38:44,010
you know, over the last, I would say, five
years.
610
00:38:44,250 --> 00:38:50,730
And now they're seeing almost no ROI or
obviously less or or, you know, you wouldn't
611
00:38:50,730 --> 00:38:52,570
be, you know, losing your gig.
612
00:38:52,570 --> 00:38:52,889
Right?
613
00:38:52,889 --> 00:38:58,105
And it it's sad that someone who could help
them get out of the quagmire that they're in,
614
00:38:58,585 --> 00:39:04,025
they're pushing to the side, but no doubt that
they'll be they'll be fine.
615
00:39:04,344 --> 00:39:10,719
Cumulus isn't going anywhere with with their
large footprint, But I think that you are are
616
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:14,799
going to get back out and to be extremely
successful, and I hope that you have an
617
00:39:14,799 --> 00:39:19,920
opportunity to help a lot more people with your
consulting and starting a new podcast.
618
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:26,755
I'm really excited to see the this next version
of Podvader out there after having spent the
619
00:39:26,755 --> 00:39:32,275
last five years not doing podcasts and not, you
know, being more behind the scenes, getting you
620
00:39:32,275 --> 00:39:37,730
back out there and the insights and the
knowledge that you've gained being a part of
621
00:39:37,730 --> 00:39:43,329
that, the big part of that corporate world now
on these shifting sands and bringing that back
622
00:39:43,329 --> 00:39:45,489
to the to the podcasters.
623
00:39:46,034 --> 00:39:47,714
Huge shot to Podcast Movement.
624
00:39:47,714 --> 00:39:52,514
They gave me a scholarship ticket to go down to
their event in Grapevine, Texas last year.
625
00:39:52,835 --> 00:39:53,714
Had a great time.
626
00:39:53,714 --> 00:39:55,234
Got to meet Adam Curry.
627
00:39:55,234 --> 00:40:00,190
And it was really listening to his was
probably, what, a year and a half in at that
628
00:40:00,190 --> 00:40:00,510
point.
629
00:40:00,510 --> 00:40:05,710
And listening to his, you know, talk was all
about build a small community.
630
00:40:05,710 --> 00:40:09,710
That community will will support you and and
will grow with you.
631
00:40:09,710 --> 00:40:12,045
And, really, don't worry about the views.
632
00:40:12,045 --> 00:40:17,164
Don't worry about these CPM models and these
shifting sands that you're standing on with all
633
00:40:17,164 --> 00:40:21,885
of these these moving goalposts or whatever
other analogy I can come up within the next
634
00:40:21,885 --> 00:40:22,684
five seconds.
635
00:40:23,005 --> 00:40:25,579
It's about building community.
636
00:40:25,579 --> 00:40:27,500
And I literally kinda was like, okay.
637
00:40:27,500 --> 00:40:27,900
Thank you.
638
00:40:27,900 --> 00:40:32,380
Took my headphones off, put them back in the
bin, and said, see you later.
639
00:40:32,380 --> 00:40:37,739
I I had a great time, and I connected with a
lot of, you know, industry folks there and
640
00:40:37,739 --> 00:40:38,380
others.
641
00:40:38,380 --> 00:40:43,485
But I realized that that was a little bit of
the confidence that I needed in myself to say,
642
00:40:43,485 --> 00:40:43,885
hey.
643
00:40:43,885 --> 00:40:47,164
You're on the right path on the way that you
are building this thing.
644
00:40:47,244 --> 00:40:48,204
Just keep going.
645
00:40:48,204 --> 00:40:51,644
It's not gonna happen overnight, there's a lot
of work ahead of you.
646
00:40:51,644 --> 00:40:52,844
Just go get back to work.
647
00:40:54,610 --> 00:40:55,090
Yeah.
648
00:40:55,090 --> 00:40:59,409
I think, you know, Adam created podcasting.
649
00:40:59,409 --> 00:41:00,690
He is the pod father.
650
00:41:01,329 --> 00:41:08,965
And his vision, I still think, remains strong
and the strongest for the podcasting community
651
00:41:08,965 --> 00:41:09,925
as a whole.
652
00:41:10,405 --> 00:41:17,284
I think if you follow what he says and what he
recommends, you're not gonna go wrong, because,
653
00:41:17,284 --> 00:41:20,724
ultimately, you're going to build your
community.
654
00:41:20,724 --> 00:41:22,804
And like we said, community helps each other.
655
00:41:23,550 --> 00:41:25,230
And they're gonna prop you up.
656
00:41:25,230 --> 00:41:26,590
They're gonna be loyal to you.
657
00:41:26,590 --> 00:41:30,750
They're going to help you when you need help
the most and vice versa.
658
00:41:30,750 --> 00:41:36,030
You're gonna help others in your community, and
others in your community are gonna help others
659
00:41:36,030 --> 00:41:36,910
in the community.
660
00:41:36,910 --> 00:41:42,184
It's just that's the way that we as humans
survive.
661
00:41:42,184 --> 00:41:45,065
Never mind podcasting or anything else.
662
00:41:45,065 --> 00:41:51,240
Just as human beings, like, being part of a
community is part of our nature.
663
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:56,440
It's what helps us to live and breathe and
survive in this world.
664
00:41:56,599 --> 00:42:00,440
And if we can remember that, then we're gonna
be just fine.
665
00:42:00,519 --> 00:42:06,974
And if we can you know, not to take it too far
down, but if we can remember that, we can sort
666
00:42:06,974 --> 00:42:13,295
of forget this whole red state, blue state
thing and sort of understand that the real
667
00:42:13,295 --> 00:42:14,815
truth lies in the middle.
668
00:42:15,369 --> 00:42:16,730
Sorta like content.
669
00:42:16,730 --> 00:42:22,329
When I talk about creating content, I wanna get
as many different perspectives as I can because
670
00:42:22,329 --> 00:42:24,250
that's gonna give me the real truth.
671
00:42:24,329 --> 00:42:27,369
We can understand that and and come to that
point.
672
00:42:28,265 --> 00:42:29,704
We used to have that.
673
00:42:29,704 --> 00:42:31,224
We don't seem to have that anymore.
674
00:42:31,224 --> 00:42:33,465
It's only my idea is the only idea.
675
00:42:33,465 --> 00:42:33,704
No.
676
00:42:33,704 --> 00:42:34,505
It's not.
677
00:42:34,825 --> 00:42:38,825
By the way, some of the things I said today,
I'm sure there's somebody out there that's
678
00:42:38,825 --> 00:42:40,265
like, he is full of it.
679
00:42:40,670 --> 00:42:42,349
Like, there's no what now.
680
00:42:42,349 --> 00:42:44,190
He doesn't know what he's talking about.
681
00:42:44,349 --> 00:42:46,910
My opinion is way different than his.
682
00:42:47,230 --> 00:42:49,710
And that's a 100% okay.
683
00:42:49,950 --> 00:42:54,750
And by the way, your opinion and your
strategies might work just as well as mine.
684
00:42:55,175 --> 00:42:58,614
I'm not saying that I know all the answers
because I don't.
685
00:42:58,934 --> 00:43:02,695
But at the end of the day, I've been here for a
while.
686
00:43:02,775 --> 00:43:03,974
I know what works.
687
00:43:03,974 --> 00:43:10,135
I know what doesn't work, and I can help you
find that way if that's what you're looking
688
00:43:10,135 --> 00:43:10,375
for.
689
00:43:11,809 --> 00:43:14,610
I think that's a great place to cut it off,
Jay.
690
00:43:15,010 --> 00:43:17,170
Had an awesome conversation with you.
691
00:43:17,170 --> 00:43:19,170
Just really appreciate your time.
692
00:43:19,170 --> 00:43:25,345
Like I said, really looking forward to this
next iteration of of Podvader, getting back out
693
00:43:25,345 --> 00:43:28,065
there and and getting back into the podcasting
world.
694
00:43:28,065 --> 00:43:32,864
Looking forward to following whatever the new
show is or or possibly shows that you're doing.
695
00:43:32,864 --> 00:43:34,785
Whether, maybe you'll get back into sports.
696
00:43:34,785 --> 00:43:35,184
Who knows?
697
00:43:36,690 --> 00:43:38,369
I mean, I'm not against it.
698
00:43:38,369 --> 00:43:39,250
That's for sure.
699
00:43:39,250 --> 00:43:40,769
I do love my sports.
700
00:43:40,769 --> 00:43:47,250
I do love my Patriots, and, you know, we're
looking at a very interesting upcoming NFL
701
00:43:47,250 --> 00:43:48,210
season for sure.
702
00:43:48,785 --> 00:43:49,265
Well, we'll
703
00:43:49,265 --> 00:43:53,744
have to get you back on the sports network at
some point and and talk some football with you,
704
00:43:53,744 --> 00:43:53,985
man.
705
00:43:53,985 --> 00:43:55,585
I would absolutely love that.
706
00:43:55,744 --> 00:43:57,265
Everybody check out Jay.
707
00:43:57,265 --> 00:44:00,625
Go find him on LinkedIn, linkedin.com/podvader.
708
00:44:01,230 --> 00:44:06,030
Jay Soderberg, thank you so much for joining me
today, giving me a little bit of your time, and
709
00:44:06,030 --> 00:44:07,949
thank you for being part of the scene.
710
00:44:08,349 --> 00:44:09,630
Bubba, thank you.
711
00:44:10,670 --> 00:44:12,110
Gladly come back anytime.
00:00:22,494 --> 00:00:24,095
Welcome in to Real Biz.
2
00:00:24,095 --> 00:00:30,109
I am your host Bubba Starts, and with me today,
a podcast OG and a man that needs no
3
00:00:30,109 --> 00:00:33,070
introduction, Jay Podvader Soderbergh.
4
00:00:33,070 --> 00:00:34,350
Jay, welcome to the show.
5
00:00:34,590 --> 00:00:35,469
Thanks, Bubba.
6
00:00:35,469 --> 00:00:36,509
Glad to be here.
7
00:00:36,829 --> 00:00:37,390
Yeah.
8
00:00:37,390 --> 00:00:41,229
I, you know, I don't do the lengthy
introductions.
9
00:00:41,390 --> 00:00:48,635
I I just, at this point, we are two men in this
podcasting space that is on shifting sands and
10
00:00:48,635 --> 00:00:53,114
someone who's been around the industry as long
as you have, knows more than I would say
11
00:00:53,114 --> 00:00:56,200
probably anyone out there what that means.
12
00:00:56,440 --> 00:01:01,399
Before we get into the conversations, of how
the, you know, podcasting world is changing and
13
00:01:01,399 --> 00:01:05,719
changes that are happening in your world, I
just wanna give you an opportunity to kinda
14
00:01:05,719 --> 00:01:08,840
give us a little bit of your backstory, and
then we'll pick it up from there.
15
00:01:09,795 --> 00:01:10,194
Yeah.
16
00:01:10,194 --> 00:01:17,795
I mean, it was so long ago, that I that I got
my start here in podcasting, literally day one
17
00:01:17,795 --> 00:01:19,474
of podcasting pretty much.
18
00:01:20,034 --> 00:01:26,719
I was pulled into an office at ESPN where I'd
been working in radio for at least eight years
19
00:01:26,719 --> 00:01:31,359
at that point and was told, we need to start
doing this thing called podcasting.
20
00:01:31,359 --> 00:01:32,879
I said, what's a podcast?
21
00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:36,560
And they said, we don't know either, but you're
gonna find out.
22
00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:38,159
And sure enough, I did.
23
00:01:39,004 --> 00:01:44,765
During the course of that, putting my
fingerprints on over 27 original podcasts
24
00:01:45,245 --> 00:01:53,109
either directly or indirectly at ESPN creating
their whole platform before I left to become
25
00:01:53,109 --> 00:01:59,509
the head of content at Blog Talk Radio and work
with this thing called dynamic ad insertion,
26
00:01:59,509 --> 00:02:02,709
which at the time, nobody wanted it.
27
00:02:02,709 --> 00:02:03,509
They hated it.
28
00:02:03,509 --> 00:02:08,185
Podcasters, especially the indie podcasters,
especially hated it.
29
00:02:08,185 --> 00:02:08,905
They're like, what?
30
00:02:08,905 --> 00:02:10,265
I don't want those ads.
31
00:02:11,544 --> 00:02:15,705
Not realizing that it was pretty much the only
way from advertising that they were going to
32
00:02:15,705 --> 00:02:18,105
make ads based on the size of their shows.
33
00:02:18,620 --> 00:02:23,500
And for the bigger shows, the corporate
podcasters, as I like to call them, it was a
34
00:02:23,500 --> 00:02:27,659
great way to benefit from that huge back
catalog that you had.
35
00:02:27,819 --> 00:02:33,835
And so selling that in the very early days of
dynamic ad insertion and blazing that path was
36
00:02:33,835 --> 00:02:34,955
a lot of fun.
37
00:02:35,514 --> 00:02:41,435
And then Spreaker took over the company and
blew out all the old BlogTalk Radio people.
38
00:02:42,635 --> 00:02:44,155
I ended up doing some consulting.
39
00:02:44,599 --> 00:02:48,360
I worked a little bit back in sports with the
Locked On network.
40
00:02:48,599 --> 00:02:55,159
Unfortunately, COVID came around and changed
the world, and that blew up, my world a little
41
00:02:55,159 --> 00:02:55,639
bit.
42
00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:59,960
And then ended up at the Cumulus Podcast
Network and worked there for the last five
43
00:02:59,960 --> 00:03:06,414
years helping drive their strategy and evolving
with the medium, getting involved more in
44
00:03:06,414 --> 00:03:14,174
video, and learning everything there is to know
about video and also learning what you need to
45
00:03:14,174 --> 00:03:18,129
know about video to be successful in
podcasting.
46
00:03:18,610 --> 00:03:25,969
Because audio to me is still prime, in this
medium, and it is still king in this medium, in
47
00:03:25,969 --> 00:03:26,770
my opinion.
48
00:03:27,134 --> 00:03:33,375
And for those that continue to chase after that
video, that shiny object, be careful what you
49
00:03:33,375 --> 00:03:40,254
wish for because, when the advertisers start
understanding the consumption of podcasting
50
00:03:40,254 --> 00:03:47,919
video versus the consumption of podcasting
audio, the ad dollars will switch back to where
51
00:03:47,919 --> 00:03:48,719
they belong.
52
00:03:49,759 --> 00:03:50,240
Yeah.
53
00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:52,800
And I think we're seeing a massive shift in
that.
54
00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:57,974
Obviously, YouTube is going through some big
changes in what they consider a view any longer
55
00:03:57,974 --> 00:04:03,495
on content, and I think that speaks a bit to,
things that you're saying that these
56
00:04:03,495 --> 00:04:10,534
advertisers are not seeing the ROI that, these
companies are charging an exorbitant amount for
57
00:04:10,534 --> 00:04:12,134
as they're looking to cut cost.
58
00:04:12,134 --> 00:04:15,549
And I think there was a a balloon, right,
during COVID.
59
00:04:15,549 --> 00:04:19,310
Podcasts, I think, became even more popular,
than they were.
60
00:04:19,310 --> 00:04:24,430
People were consuming more, right, working
less, and and looking for other things to do.
61
00:04:24,430 --> 00:04:27,915
And we're kind of back on the backside of that
now.
62
00:04:27,915 --> 00:04:28,235
Right?
63
00:04:28,235 --> 00:04:33,275
That that that wave has crested, and now we're
kind of figuring it all out again.
64
00:04:33,514 --> 00:04:38,475
And while I do everything is video, I record
everything on video, we are still very
65
00:04:38,475 --> 00:04:41,120
conscious of our audio only listeners.
66
00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:45,600
And and in many ways, our audio listeners are
our biggest fan base.
67
00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:50,960
So we wanna make sure that, yes, we are using
video for the purpose of it and getting the
68
00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:55,794
value of that, but in no way only creating for
video.
69
00:04:55,794 --> 00:04:58,915
It has to be consumable on an audio level.
70
00:04:58,915 --> 00:05:02,514
And I think that really speaks to just the the
conversations.
71
00:05:02,514 --> 00:05:06,834
I think that's what podcasts have always been,
an opportunity to just sit down.
72
00:05:06,834 --> 00:05:13,350
And and to me, I grew up listening to, you
know, talk radio with with my, grandfather.
73
00:05:13,350 --> 00:05:17,430
It was always AM radio in his truck when we
were cruising around, and it was just
74
00:05:17,430 --> 00:05:18,629
conversations there.
75
00:05:18,629 --> 00:05:24,254
And, being a huge sports fan as well and
consuming a lot of sports radio, that's always
76
00:05:24,254 --> 00:05:31,214
how I've approached my own podcast is it has to
be consumable on an audio format and not just
77
00:05:31,214 --> 00:05:33,774
sharing video clips and dying on that hill.
78
00:05:34,759 --> 00:05:35,160
No.
79
00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:40,600
And I think the best compliment I ever received
for podcasts that I was working on was a
80
00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:46,199
gentleman who was listening to one of our
recordings of the Fantasy Focus podcast back in
81
00:05:46,199 --> 00:05:46,839
the day.
82
00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,774
And when we were done, he said, look.
83
00:05:49,774 --> 00:05:52,415
I'm not into fantasy football at all.
84
00:05:52,415 --> 00:05:58,334
I'm not into sports at all, but I can sit and
listen to this show five days a week twenty
85
00:05:58,334 --> 00:05:59,214
four seven.
86
00:06:00,175 --> 00:06:02,319
So, I mean, I was like, hey.
87
00:06:02,319 --> 00:06:03,279
That's fantastic.
88
00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:06,160
Because that's the whole point of podcasting.
89
00:06:06,399 --> 00:06:10,879
It's the conversation that makes you feel like
you're a part of it even though you're not.
90
00:06:10,879 --> 00:06:16,455
You're literally the guy at the bar
eavesdropping in on that super interesting
91
00:06:16,455 --> 00:06:19,654
conversation that's happening right next to
you.
92
00:06:20,295 --> 00:06:24,694
And that's and that's the kind of feeling that
you're not gonna get from video.
93
00:06:24,694 --> 00:06:29,420
From video, I've gotta make sure that I keep
staring at this camera, which I don't do
94
00:06:29,420 --> 00:06:31,020
because I'm an audio guy.
95
00:06:31,100 --> 00:06:32,540
I grew up in audio.
96
00:06:32,540 --> 00:06:37,420
I can't remember to keep staring at the video
so that I'm talking to you who's watching right
97
00:06:37,420 --> 00:06:37,900
now.
98
00:06:37,980 --> 00:06:42,620
Now, again, I've been involved in this medium
for over twenty years now.
99
00:06:42,964 --> 00:06:45,845
I understand the evolution of the medium.
100
00:06:46,004 --> 00:06:48,085
I understand the value of video.
101
00:06:48,085 --> 00:06:54,805
I understand the opportunity that sits here for
podcasting as more and more people are getting
102
00:06:54,805 --> 00:07:00,360
smart televisions, and they're getting apps
like Roku and Tubi.
103
00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:07,399
And there's a place that this content can live
on on the television as well, and television
104
00:07:07,399 --> 00:07:09,720
requires moving pictures.
105
00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:15,254
People want to see some sort of movement, which
is why I'm gonna start using my hands here so I
106
00:07:15,254 --> 00:07:17,814
can, provide some movement.
107
00:07:17,814 --> 00:07:22,134
But at the end of the day, when it comes to a
podcast, what are we doing most of the times
108
00:07:22,134 --> 00:07:23,895
when we're listening to a podcast?
109
00:07:23,895 --> 00:07:24,615
We're driving.
110
00:07:25,269 --> 00:07:26,949
We're doing chores.
111
00:07:27,110 --> 00:07:32,149
It's an experience that we can do multiple
things at the same time.
112
00:07:32,789 --> 00:07:37,110
I can't watch a podcast while I'm driving to
work.
113
00:07:37,110 --> 00:07:42,194
I can't watch a podcast while I'm taking the
kids to the soccer game.
114
00:07:42,675 --> 00:07:48,115
I can't watch a podcast while I'm supposed to
be watching my kids playing in that sport out
115
00:07:48,115 --> 00:07:49,475
there on the field.
116
00:07:49,555 --> 00:07:54,620
I can listen to one, though, while I'm watching
the game, and I can do both things at the same
117
00:07:54,620 --> 00:07:56,060
time listening.
118
00:07:56,300 --> 00:07:58,939
And I think that's a super important point.
119
00:07:59,019 --> 00:08:02,779
On top of that, I've seen the consumption
stats.
120
00:08:02,939 --> 00:08:03,740
I know.
121
00:08:03,740 --> 00:08:08,004
And that's the little that's the little secret
that nobody is talking about right now.
122
00:08:08,004 --> 00:08:15,444
The consumption of video is not the same as the
consumption of audio for podcasting at all.
123
00:08:15,524 --> 00:08:16,245
I've seen it.
124
00:08:16,245 --> 00:08:16,725
I know it.
125
00:08:16,725 --> 00:08:18,324
It's inverse as a matter of fact.
126
00:08:18,470 --> 00:08:23,910
Industry standard for completion percentage on
audio is 75.
127
00:08:24,629 --> 00:08:28,790
Industry standard for video completion is 20%.
128
00:08:28,949 --> 00:08:33,750
YouTube has come out and said publicly, 20% is
good on their platform.
129
00:08:34,934 --> 00:08:38,935
We would freak out if we only had 20%
completion on the audio side.
130
00:08:39,254 --> 00:08:44,774
So these are the things that I hoping people
start to understand.
131
00:08:45,095 --> 00:08:49,175
And the whole point about the view, like,
what's a view, what's an engaged view, it's
132
00:08:49,175 --> 00:08:50,055
completely irrelevant.
133
00:08:50,639 --> 00:08:55,360
The view is the worst, most nonsensical metric
in all of data.
134
00:08:55,600 --> 00:09:00,159
It doesn't correlate with any other metric that
YouTube gives you, and YouTube gives you a
135
00:09:00,399 --> 00:09:05,274
phenomenal amount of data of your viewers on
their platform.
136
00:09:05,355 --> 00:09:06,714
They give you new viewers.
137
00:09:06,714 --> 00:09:08,394
They give you returning viewers.
138
00:09:08,554 --> 00:09:13,914
The one number that you want to keep attention
to when it comes to your audience are the
139
00:09:13,914 --> 00:09:14,714
uniques.
140
00:09:15,034 --> 00:09:16,235
Ignore the view.
141
00:09:16,394 --> 00:09:17,754
It's a worthless metric.
142
00:09:18,490 --> 00:09:21,850
Engaged views, probably just as worthless.
143
00:09:21,930 --> 00:09:27,129
The only thing that you can tell by a large
view number is that you have a large audience.
144
00:09:27,290 --> 00:09:28,250
That's it.
145
00:09:28,250 --> 00:09:32,809
But the actual audience that you wanna be
looking at are your uniques and your returning
146
00:09:32,809 --> 00:09:36,764
viewers because those that is the core of your
audience.
147
00:09:37,085 --> 00:09:42,365
New users, you're hoping that you're working
that algorithm to start working for you, and
148
00:09:42,365 --> 00:09:46,925
there's ways that you can work the algorithm to
increase those, and there's metrics to look at
149
00:09:46,925 --> 00:09:48,045
to see if it's working.
150
00:09:49,470 --> 00:09:49,949
Yeah.
151
00:09:49,949 --> 00:09:50,190
Yeah.
152
00:09:50,190 --> 00:09:53,870
I think the the focus is first that you have to
have good content.
153
00:09:53,870 --> 00:09:54,190
Right?
154
00:09:54,190 --> 00:09:59,629
You you have to be a good personality and
someone that, people would want to listen to or
155
00:09:59,629 --> 00:10:03,230
to watch, you know, regardless of the of the
medium that you're on.
156
00:10:04,294 --> 00:10:07,575
You have to be likable, I think, as a start.
157
00:10:07,575 --> 00:10:12,615
And then beyond that, can you be interesting,
or can you have interesting guests and have
158
00:10:12,615 --> 00:10:15,335
interesting conversations to keep them coming
back?
159
00:10:15,910 --> 00:10:21,029
I I didn't divest a lot of time in in building
my platform over the last few years and now
160
00:10:21,029 --> 00:10:27,350
several platforms underneath the scene projects
banner by chasing views and by chasing the
161
00:10:27,350 --> 00:10:27,990
algorithm.
162
00:10:27,990 --> 00:10:34,865
Is there more that we could do to, you know,
invest into learning and not necessarily gaming
163
00:10:34,865 --> 00:10:40,304
the algorithm, but with our content, making
sure that we are feeding and continuing to feed
164
00:10:40,304 --> 00:10:43,024
that beast in the way that it wants to be fed.
165
00:10:43,024 --> 00:10:43,345
Right?
166
00:10:43,345 --> 00:10:44,865
I'm not throwing a carrot to a bear.
167
00:10:45,830 --> 00:10:51,670
But we are I I was always really focused on
community, and I think that's something that
168
00:10:51,670 --> 00:10:56,629
you're speaking to with the metrics that you're
measuring, those unique and returning viewers
169
00:10:56,629 --> 00:11:01,214
and visitors to you you know, either it's your
YouTube channel or your podcast downloads or
170
00:11:01,214 --> 00:11:05,534
whatever it may be, that that's the community
that you are driving.
171
00:11:05,534 --> 00:11:07,455
Those are the people that are going to support
you.
172
00:11:07,455 --> 00:11:13,460
And outside of just being monetized, which is a
moving goalpost anyway, these are people that
173
00:11:13,460 --> 00:11:18,500
would be valuable to advertisers outside of a
dynamic ad insertion.
174
00:11:18,500 --> 00:11:18,980
Right?
175
00:11:18,980 --> 00:11:20,820
To allow you to say, hey.
176
00:11:20,820 --> 00:11:26,315
We have 300 people, and it may be even a small
number, but they tune in every single week.
177
00:11:26,315 --> 00:11:32,154
They come back, consume our content, and that
that can be valuable to a myriad of businesses
178
00:11:32,154 --> 00:11:37,914
if you have the wherewithal and a little bit of
sales drive and know how to get out there and
179
00:11:37,914 --> 00:11:43,320
to provide that value to any number of
advertisers, not just the big five, you know,
180
00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:46,919
that are out there, you know, on on every
podcast that would seem.
181
00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:50,440
Well, this is this goes back to the whole the
riches are in the niches.
182
00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:50,759
Right?
183
00:11:50,759 --> 00:11:57,254
So 300 football watchers is not necessarily
valuable to an advertiser.
184
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Right?
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Because millions of people are watching
football, and millions of people are doing
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podcasts on football.
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But 300 yacht owners is super valuable because
there aren't a lot of yacht owners, and the
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ones that they do own yachts usually have big
pockets.
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And those are the people that the advertisers
obviously want to get to.
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So understanding what your core audience is,
understanding who this podcast is for, all
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helps in terms of how do you end up selling it
to a potential advertiser at the end of the day
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to help make your business work and
understanding what it's going to take to help
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that advertiser spend their money with you.
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I think one thing that a lot of podcasters I've
spoken to over the years get wrong is they
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think when they sign up an agreement with a
podcast network, for instance, they're getting
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paid to podcast.
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No.
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No.
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No.
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No.
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You're not getting paid to podcast.
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You're getting paid because there's an
advertiser that believes your podcast can make
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them money by selling their product.
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So if you don't sell their product to your
audience, you will no longer be making any
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money, which is why these ginormous contracts
that end up getting signed by some of the
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bigger podcasters are quite fascinating.
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I read an article not not only a couple weeks
ago by, Steve Raises on LinkedIn who mentioned
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that a lot of these contracts are being signed
knowing that they're not going to make that
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money back.
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But there are reasons, strategic reasons why
these contracts are being sold.
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One, so that you understand that you are a
player in this party known as podcasting so you
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can attract more podcasters.
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And the more podcasters that you bring in, the
more likely is you're going to make up that
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revenue that you're going to lose on that one
big contract with the other podcasts that are
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part of your network.
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And two is exactly that, bringing in more
podcasters into the network.
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Because, ultimately, if I've sold, you know,
Joe Rogan for, you know, however much money it
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was, $500,000,000 or whatever the number
happens to be.
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I know I'm not gonna make that back in
advertising.
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However, if I have Joe Rogan on my network, I
can tell people I have Joe Rogan on my network,
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and you probably want to be part of the Joe
Rogan network.
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That's where I'm going to end up making back
all of that money.
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And by signing those podcasters to lesser deals
or perhaps not even signing them to a a minimum
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guarantee deal, maybe I convince them that the
revenue share is enough for them.
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You know, we're gonna make you x amount of
dollars no matter what.
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So if you just take this on a rolling monthly
basis, we're gonna be in good shape.
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Both of us are gonna make money.
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And I think that's the part that ends up
getting missed in the conversations with some
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of these podcasters out there.
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Yeah.
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They they don't understand.
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In the business world, you would call a Joe
Rogan deal a loss leader.
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You know that the ROI is not going to be there
on that deal specifically, but it has a
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different function.
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Right?
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It's never going to make up a $500,000,000 in
ad revenue on its own, but it's going to build
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that brand authority, you know, and for a
Spotify, when they were first getting into
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podcasting, a great move on their part because
Joe I mean, not only does he have a large fan
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base, but he is the ear of a lot of people
around him that have their own podcast as well.
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Right?
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It's not just signing Joe.
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It's like, hey.
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Can you get Theo and and everybody else in your
circle, Bert, and everybody to bring their
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stuff over here as well.
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And maybe there's some, like you said, some
lesser exclusive deals that they're able to
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work or just having them in that circle.
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I think it's important.
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Now, Jay, you came from the world of radio and
how I've always looked at my podcast and what
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we do is is some more similar to how a radio or
TV network maybe runs without the overhead of
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the broadcast, you know, a 100,000 watt tower
or, you know, a a a TV satellite to broadcast
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that onto.
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But I've always brought that mentality to where
I'll go find the advertisers on my own space.
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And and and a lot of what you're kind of
addressing here and I think from the
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independent side, what a lot more independent
podcasters can do is you're not trying to chase
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a single check from a a big podcast network.
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You're it's learning how to cash maybe smaller
checks and to treat yourself as someone who is
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capable of selling the product and aligning
yourself with brands out there that makes sense
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for you.
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How is it the same in podcasting and how you
look at it compared to your days in radio?
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This well, the similarities mainly lie in the
in the content.
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Right?
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Ultimately, back in the day in radio, when
radio was awesome I'll just throw that little
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shot out there.
264
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When radio was awesome, it was all about the
community.
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Right?
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Everybody listened.
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Everybody tuned in to that DJ, to that show
because it was a moment that you had to tune
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in.
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You had to listen because you didn't want to
miss what was next.
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You sat in your car when you got to your
destination the middle of a bit or in the
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middle of an interview because you couldn't
miss what was next.
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And with radio, once it went out there, it was
out there and it was gone forever.
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You didn't ever got to hear it ever again.
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With podcasting, the difference is that
everything on the Internet lives forever.
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So you can always go back and get it and listen
to it however you want, whenever you want.
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I think the other part about podcasting that's
slightly different than radio and is a super
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advantage for podcasting.
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And this is what we've told people back in
those early days is don't damn one of your
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tributaries.
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Create a revenue river that is fed by numerous
revenue opportunities.
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Don't just accept programmatic digital ad
insertion.
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Don't just accept host spread ad placements in
your podcast.
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00:18:16,930 --> 00:18:23,265
Create a subscription network for those
returning viewers and for those p ones that you
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have on your podcast.
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Create merchandise that you can, benefit from.
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There's plenty of different opportunities out
there where you can create merchandise at
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you're you're not gonna make a ton of money off
of it.
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00:18:38,170 --> 00:18:43,049
You're gonna take less of a percentage off of
what gets sold, but you don't have to worry
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about building an inventory that's gonna sit
and rot in a warehouse somewhere.
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You can sell it on demand just like your
podcast is on demand.
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Once you get to a certain number of people that
are demanding more and more merchandise, then
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you can worry about how do I make how do I do
create a warehouse worth of merchandise that's
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rotting away somewhere?
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All of these things are super important to an
independent podcaster, because you probably
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00:19:12,089 --> 00:19:16,009
aren't going to be of the size where
advertising is gonna be the sole thing that's
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gonna bring in most of your revenue.
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00:19:18,034 --> 00:19:23,075
You might find that you're gonna be more
popular on a subscription basis with people
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that are gonna donate to you.
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I'm a huge fan of Adam Curry.
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00:19:27,474 --> 00:19:33,710
When I was learning what a podcast was way back
in the day, it was Adam Curry and Leo Laporte.
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Those were the two people that I was listening
to the most about how to create a podcast, what
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00:19:38,429 --> 00:19:39,629
a podcast was.
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00:19:39,789 --> 00:19:46,255
And Adam Curry has always pushed the value for
value model, which is it's not it's not
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donations.
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00:19:47,615 --> 00:19:50,894
It's not, it's not a subscription.
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00:19:50,974 --> 00:19:56,734
It's a if you're listening to this show and you
have a certain value in mind of what this show
307
00:19:56,734 --> 00:20:01,130
is worth to you, well, then please send in that
amount.
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00:20:01,130 --> 00:20:05,610
And if you feel like the value is zero, then
you're not going to send anything.
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And then I'm not going to continue creating
this content because you valued it at zero.
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Ultimately, the value that you are producing
will come back to you from your audience, and
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your audience is going to tell you how valuable
that content is.
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00:20:22,284 --> 00:20:27,289
It can be a scary proposition for somebody
who's just starting off, and their name isn't
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Adam Curry.
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But at the end of the day, you're going to
know, can I do this as a profit, or can I do
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this as a hobby?
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00:20:37,130 --> 00:20:43,525
And that's what the independent podcaster has
to realize is you might come to a point where
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the podcast really is only for you, because you
just get so much enjoyment from doing it.
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00:20:49,204 --> 00:20:55,339
You have to do it, versus I need this to be my
life source.
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I need this to put food on the table.
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I need this to pay the bills.
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If that's the case, if that's the kind of thing
that you need, then you need to change your
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mindset and create content that is going to
become more sellable and more sellable to an
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00:21:12,595 --> 00:21:13,474
advertiser.
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Yeah.
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And I dove into this, not exactly in the very
beginning knowing that it needed to be, putting
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food on the table.
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00:21:23,369 --> 00:21:25,849
But within six months where it was like, okay.
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00:21:25,849 --> 00:21:28,889
I enjoy this enough that I could do this the
rest of my life.
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00:21:29,210 --> 00:21:33,289
And and and there was that this crack, right,
that that we've kinda been in over the last
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two, three years where it's very obvious that
the media landscape has changed.
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People are not consuming it, really, you know,
from just satellite or from, you know, cable
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TV, and we no longer have just three big
networks.
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Everyone is streaming fast and Roku and and all
the things are happening that if you can find
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00:21:52,700 --> 00:21:59,740
where you fit in and and and treat your podcast
as a business or your multiple podcasts like we
335
00:21:59,740 --> 00:22:05,820
have here as a business, that there will be a
maybe not millions of dollars like some people
336
00:22:05,820 --> 00:22:11,045
are out there making, but you can, make a a
decent living and survive yourself and do
337
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something that is incredibly rewarding to you.
338
00:22:14,005 --> 00:22:18,565
And that was really the allure to me, to be
able to I love having conversations.
339
00:22:18,565 --> 00:22:19,924
I love meeting new people.
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This gives me the opportunity to do it from my
home in the small town in South Dakota that I
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00:22:25,289 --> 00:22:27,690
live in and to connect with all kinds of
people.
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00:22:27,690 --> 00:22:32,730
I've interviewed rock and roll hall of famers,
NFL, you know, former NFL guys.
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00:22:32,730 --> 00:22:38,365
We get a chance to work alongside, you know,
the Minnesota Vikings with some of our coverage
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00:22:38,365 --> 00:22:42,924
that we're doing and to interview some some of
the most amazing people on the planet that
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without a podcast, I would have never had those
opportunities.
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00:22:45,565 --> 00:22:52,169
This conversation today, Jay, doesn't happen
unless I dive all into it and am just really
347
00:22:52,169 --> 00:22:55,450
focused on getting better at the craft.
348
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And that also means the business side of that.
349
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We're very fortunate to have some advertisers
on a few of our programs.
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00:23:02,250 --> 00:23:07,244
We're not yet big enough, and now that that
goalpost has moved on the monetization side to
351
00:23:07,244 --> 00:23:12,125
be garnering large checks from, you know,
dynamic ad insertion and a lot of these things.
352
00:23:12,125 --> 00:23:14,845
So it it was how is it going to make money?
353
00:23:14,845 --> 00:23:19,599
Whether that's on the content production side
and working more as a promotional piece for
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00:23:19,599 --> 00:23:24,559
businesses out there, or it's, you know, why we
dipped heavily into sports because people are
355
00:23:24,559 --> 00:23:29,039
consuming sports content and people are
passionate about sports teams.
356
00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:29,440
Okay.
357
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:34,214
Well, we'll start a a show about the team that
you like, and we'll put your name all over it.
358
00:23:34,214 --> 00:23:39,894
I I don't necessarily care too much myself
about what I'm talking about as long as I'm
359
00:23:39,894 --> 00:23:41,974
talking and there's a check at the end of it.
360
00:23:42,295 --> 00:23:43,974
It all goes back to that why.
361
00:23:44,295 --> 00:23:50,080
As long as you understand what the why is, then
you're going to create the perfect piece of
362
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:51,839
content every single time.
363
00:23:52,559 --> 00:23:56,080
And if you don't understand what your why is,
you're not.
364
00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:57,200
You're not going to connect.
365
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:01,765
You're not gonna make those goals because
you're you don't have a mission statement
366
00:24:01,765 --> 00:24:05,365
that's guiding you towards what that goal is.
367
00:24:05,525 --> 00:24:09,444
So if you don't know what your why is, you
should not be podcasting.
368
00:24:09,684 --> 00:24:16,269
If you do know what your why is, you can create
strategies as to how do you get to the answer
369
00:24:16,269 --> 00:24:17,390
to your why.
370
00:24:17,710 --> 00:24:20,990
And that's how you're gonna end up building a
successful podcast.
371
00:24:20,990 --> 00:24:24,910
It sounds like, Bubba, you've you've done
exactly that, and you're on the right path.
372
00:24:25,630 --> 00:24:27,470
Well, I appreciate you saying so.
373
00:24:27,470 --> 00:24:30,590
It's taken a lot of spaghetti on the wall to
find that path, though.
374
00:24:30,924 --> 00:24:36,765
We we've we've developed probably over 15
podcasts in the last two years, and some shows
375
00:24:36,765 --> 00:24:39,724
have had different iterations of of what they
are.
376
00:24:39,724 --> 00:24:45,644
And and I was never worried about and I think a
lot of people and a lot of podcasters early on
377
00:24:46,390 --> 00:24:52,150
either get a little I I don't wanna say even
burnt out, but discouraged that they're not
378
00:24:52,150 --> 00:24:55,029
getting the viewership and they're not things
aren't taking off.
379
00:24:55,029 --> 00:24:59,990
This is a long game that you are getting into
and playing unless you are already someone
380
00:25:00,069 --> 00:25:04,795
extremely famous and people are paying
attention to you, it's gonna be very hard to
381
00:25:04,795 --> 00:25:06,634
build that community around you.
382
00:25:06,634 --> 00:25:10,315
I was fortunate enough because of my
involvement in our, you know, local and
383
00:25:10,315 --> 00:25:15,849
regional music scene that at least I had a
network of people to interview that were
384
00:25:15,849 --> 00:25:19,690
interesting and had people that were going to
consume that on their own.
385
00:25:19,690 --> 00:25:20,009
Right?
386
00:25:20,009 --> 00:25:25,929
And being a a musician myself, I was very
comfortable being in front of a camera or on a
387
00:25:25,929 --> 00:25:31,095
stage in front of a microphone, you know,
behind a microphone that I had a lot of
388
00:25:31,095 --> 00:25:35,335
advantages to someone who's, you know, working
behind a desk all day as a podcast fan and
389
00:25:35,335 --> 00:25:36,695
goes, I wanna start a podcast.
390
00:25:36,695 --> 00:25:37,255
Right?
391
00:25:37,815 --> 00:25:43,609
So I had some a leg up on a lot of those
people, but I've still had to spend two years
392
00:25:43,609 --> 00:25:49,130
getting these reps in, doing over a thousand
interviews in the last two years to really hone
393
00:25:49,130 --> 00:25:51,210
in on what my skill is.
394
00:25:51,210 --> 00:25:56,890
And and I found that, you know, from from the
life that I have lived, the amount of emotional
395
00:25:56,890 --> 00:26:01,054
intelligence that I bring to every
conversation, that life experience that I bring
396
00:26:01,054 --> 00:26:06,414
with me to be able to just get on a level with
anyone, whether they're a a hall of fame
397
00:26:06,414 --> 00:26:11,789
athlete or they are a small business owner, I
can find that common ground.
398
00:26:11,869 --> 00:26:14,029
And, you know, that works for me.
399
00:26:14,109 --> 00:26:16,109
That may not work for the next podcast.
400
00:26:16,109 --> 00:26:17,950
You have to work to find it.
401
00:26:17,950 --> 00:26:23,309
Don't expect your first iteration of what you,
you know, what you thought you were going to do
402
00:26:23,309 --> 00:26:25,309
and your podcast was going to be all about.
403
00:26:25,734 --> 00:26:27,255
It it may not be it.
404
00:26:27,255 --> 00:26:32,454
And you have to be willing if you want to be in
this and your why is to be a successful
405
00:26:32,454 --> 00:26:36,374
podcaster, you have to be willing to change and
willing to be adaptable.
406
00:26:36,694 --> 00:26:42,450
Well, that's the beauty of podcasting is you do
have that ability to adapt to what your
407
00:26:42,450 --> 00:26:45,249
audience is telling you what they want.
408
00:26:45,650 --> 00:26:50,450
Now if that's not what you want, you have to
make that ultimate decision.
409
00:26:50,529 --> 00:26:52,289
Like, well, I don't wanna do that.
410
00:26:52,474 --> 00:26:55,034
Well, your audience is telling you what they
want.
411
00:26:55,035 --> 00:26:59,755
If you wanna do what you're still doing and
your audience is telling you that's not what we
412
00:26:59,755 --> 00:27:04,394
want, you're gonna have to come you're you're
gonna have a come to Jesus at some point.
413
00:27:05,069 --> 00:27:08,669
I've worked with a whole slew of different
types of podcasters.
414
00:27:08,669 --> 00:27:12,989
I've worked with very unfamous people, and I've
worked with some very famous people.
415
00:27:13,230 --> 00:27:17,630
And they've all had varying degrees of success,
and it all, of course, came back to the why.
416
00:27:18,105 --> 00:27:24,504
I've worked with some very famous people that
have huge audiences, huge potential audiences
417
00:27:24,585 --> 00:27:29,224
that did podcasts that got under 100 downloads
an episode.
418
00:27:29,545 --> 00:27:33,304
And the whole reason was because, one, they
didn't know their why.
419
00:27:33,779 --> 00:27:37,299
Two, they weren't delivering content that was
of any value.
420
00:27:37,539 --> 00:27:42,660
And three, because they were delivering content
in a manner where they thought they were
421
00:27:42,660 --> 00:27:48,485
getting paid, they didn't have any authenticity
to what it was that they were doing, and the
422
00:27:48,485 --> 00:27:51,605
audience can sniff that out in seconds.
423
00:27:51,845 --> 00:27:56,164
If they can tell that you're not passionate
about what it is that you're talking about,
424
00:27:56,565 --> 00:27:58,085
they will be like, nope.
425
00:27:58,244 --> 00:27:59,525
This isn't for me.
426
00:27:59,605 --> 00:28:01,365
I can tell you're reading off of a card.
427
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,119
I can see you reading off of a card.
428
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:06,039
You know?
429
00:28:06,039 --> 00:28:08,359
It's like, hello.
430
00:28:10,120 --> 00:28:10,519
Yeah.
431
00:28:10,519 --> 00:28:12,759
It's it's all it all goes back to you.
432
00:28:12,759 --> 00:28:15,240
You have to be passionate about what it is that
you're talking about.
433
00:28:15,605 --> 00:28:20,805
You have to know what your why is, and you have
to listen to your audience and deliver to your
434
00:28:20,805 --> 00:28:23,044
audience exactly what it is that they want.
435
00:28:23,125 --> 00:28:26,085
When you do all those things, you're gonna be
on the right path.
436
00:28:26,484 --> 00:28:30,700
Audience growth, is, as you said, a very long
game.
437
00:28:30,700 --> 00:28:32,619
It's going to happen slowly.
438
00:28:32,859 --> 00:28:38,460
It's gonna happen naturally, but that is the
best type of growth because those people are
439
00:28:38,460 --> 00:28:40,059
with you forever.
440
00:28:40,299 --> 00:28:42,059
They're not gonna break away from you.
441
00:28:42,059 --> 00:28:47,474
As long as you're loyal to your audience, your
audience is going to be fiercely loyal back to
442
00:28:47,474 --> 00:28:52,434
you, and that is what's ultimately gonna help
you grow because, like you said, it comes back
443
00:28:52,434 --> 00:28:53,315
to community.
444
00:28:53,634 --> 00:28:55,154
Everyone's gonna start bonding.
445
00:28:55,154 --> 00:28:57,714
Everyone's going to know exactly what the show
is about.
446
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:02,279
Everyone's gonna know exactly what this
community is about, and they're going to bond
447
00:29:02,279 --> 00:29:03,079
over that.
448
00:29:03,079 --> 00:29:06,279
And that is a bond that no price.
449
00:29:06,279 --> 00:29:08,119
There's no price on that bond.
450
00:29:08,759 --> 00:29:15,045
And as long as you remain loyal to them and you
serve them exactly what it is they want, they
451
00:29:15,045 --> 00:29:17,924
will be loyal and help you in the long run.
452
00:29:18,644 --> 00:29:18,965
Yeah.
453
00:29:18,965 --> 00:29:23,924
And I think there's some really great examples
of that and a further monetization are live
454
00:29:23,924 --> 00:29:29,700
events, you know, bringing your your podcast
and your community together in person, which I
455
00:29:29,700 --> 00:29:34,420
think, you know, regardless of how you feel
about their content, you know, the legion of
456
00:29:34,420 --> 00:29:37,380
skanks have it down to a t.
457
00:29:37,380 --> 00:29:37,700
Right?
458
00:29:37,700 --> 00:29:44,474
A podcast like kill Tony in that world that
started out with maybe 10 people in the
459
00:29:44,474 --> 00:29:49,515
audience and no views and nothing on its own is
now selling out, you know, multiple nights in a
460
00:29:49,515 --> 00:29:54,890
row at Madison Square Garden and continues to
grow and build because, one, you're creating
461
00:29:54,890 --> 00:30:00,089
good content, and two, you're very conscious of
what what it is that your audience likes and
462
00:30:00,089 --> 00:30:01,529
giving them more of that.
463
00:30:01,609 --> 00:30:02,009
Right?
464
00:30:02,009 --> 00:30:04,170
And I think that's incredibly important.
465
00:30:04,170 --> 00:30:08,335
I I I love, you know, those two in particular
because they are different.
466
00:30:08,335 --> 00:30:11,215
They are not just an interview basis to it.
467
00:30:11,215 --> 00:30:12,255
It's entertainment.
468
00:30:12,255 --> 00:30:16,174
The the entertainment value of it is
exceptional.
469
00:30:16,174 --> 00:30:21,960
And I think it's really amazing to see what
guys who nobody knew their names, you know,
470
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:26,600
ten, fifteen years ago have slowly built up and
built up to that.
471
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:31,080
Now granted, they have relationships with some
of the biggest podcasters in the world, which
472
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:37,545
no doubt helps on that to get a little bit, but
anyone is one step away from that relationship
473
00:30:37,545 --> 00:30:38,184
building.
474
00:30:38,184 --> 00:30:42,105
And the more you're getting out and the more
people you're connecting with, you never know
475
00:30:42,105 --> 00:30:46,424
when that big break in this world is going to
be that viral moment.
476
00:30:46,424 --> 00:30:47,545
So keep going.
477
00:30:47,545 --> 00:30:47,785
Right?
478
00:30:48,289 --> 00:30:51,569
You know, keep podcasting and and keep going
because you never know.
479
00:30:51,730 --> 00:30:56,609
And even a Joe Rogan, you know, kinda steps
back and and he he recounts the story quite a
480
00:30:56,609 --> 00:31:01,085
bit on his podcast that, like, I didn't know
the podcast was successful till, like, five
481
00:31:01,085 --> 00:31:02,365
five years in.
482
00:31:02,525 --> 00:31:05,964
And then finally, you know, I'm at one of my
shows and going, like, who listens to the
483
00:31:05,964 --> 00:31:06,684
podcast?
484
00:31:06,765 --> 00:31:09,804
And and the crowd goes nuts, and he's like, oh,
people are listening.
485
00:31:09,964 --> 00:31:10,365
Right?
486
00:31:10,365 --> 00:31:15,085
Because I I think when you're invested in just
the creation process and letting things play
487
00:31:15,085 --> 00:31:18,130
out how they're going to, you're you're going
to find that community.
488
00:31:18,130 --> 00:31:22,690
Because not everyone is going to follow you on
your social media and and respond and comment
489
00:31:22,690 --> 00:31:27,490
on everything that you're doing and give you a
five star rating as much as you may ask for it
490
00:31:27,490 --> 00:31:28,769
in the world as well.
491
00:31:30,345 --> 00:31:34,904
You are you're gonna find your people, and your
people are going to find you.
492
00:31:35,545 --> 00:31:40,424
Jay, I wanna get into a little bit of what your
future is going to look like.
493
00:31:40,585 --> 00:31:46,470
Obviously, just being part of a, you know,
downsizing of the podcast division over at
494
00:31:46,470 --> 00:31:52,549
Cumulus, a a a, you know, casualty of that, if
we shall say.
495
00:31:52,630 --> 00:31:57,269
You are now yourself kind of back at square one
in your podcasting journey.
496
00:31:57,715 --> 00:32:03,235
And and I'm interested to know, you know, with
all of this experience that you have not only
497
00:32:03,235 --> 00:32:08,434
in the industry, you know, behind the
microphone, but also in the business of it,
498
00:32:08,434 --> 00:32:14,650
what are your takes on how the industry, is
moving now and what you're gonna do to get back
499
00:32:14,650 --> 00:32:15,690
into the pool.
500
00:32:16,410 --> 00:32:16,890
Yeah.
501
00:32:16,890 --> 00:32:20,490
I think everything for me is on the table.
502
00:32:20,490 --> 00:32:22,569
As you mentioned, back to square one.
503
00:32:22,970 --> 00:32:27,674
The beauty of being back to square one in
podcasting, though, is that I know exactly what
504
00:32:27,674 --> 00:32:28,234
it takes.
505
00:32:28,234 --> 00:32:30,234
I know what what needs to be done.
506
00:32:30,234 --> 00:32:35,114
I know where I know where the bodies are
buried, to put it in another way.
507
00:32:36,234 --> 00:32:38,794
I can help people in all facets.
508
00:32:39,460 --> 00:32:41,380
I've worked with independent podcasters.
509
00:32:41,380 --> 00:32:42,819
I've worked with famous podcasters.
510
00:32:42,819 --> 00:32:44,739
I've worked with corporate podcasters.
511
00:32:45,299 --> 00:32:50,259
I know the strategies that work for all three
of those types of podcasters.
512
00:32:50,659 --> 00:32:54,535
I can help people in any manner or facet in
that sense.
513
00:32:54,535 --> 00:32:57,815
So, I've done some consulting in the past.
514
00:32:58,055 --> 00:33:00,295
I will gladly do consulting in the future.
515
00:33:00,295 --> 00:33:04,775
You can reach me, on my LinkedIn, on Podvader
on LinkedIn.
516
00:33:04,775 --> 00:33:05,894
Podvader is everywhere.
517
00:33:05,894 --> 00:33:09,015
But you if you wanna reach me, that's probably
the best way to get me.
518
00:33:09,015 --> 00:33:12,339
Linkedin.com/podvader.
519
00:33:13,940 --> 00:33:20,420
And and you can DM me there or ask or ask to,
be one of the followers or whatever LinkedIn's
520
00:33:20,420 --> 00:33:21,140
verbiage is.
521
00:33:21,140 --> 00:33:22,099
I don't even know anymore.
522
00:33:23,164 --> 00:33:27,565
Every every social media platform got their got
their own verbiage.
523
00:33:27,724 --> 00:33:30,444
But I'm but but I'm on I'm on x.
524
00:33:30,765 --> 00:33:31,964
I'm on Facebook.
525
00:33:31,964 --> 00:33:33,164
I can't believe I called it x.
526
00:33:33,164 --> 00:33:35,005
I I usually still call it Twitter.
527
00:33:35,325 --> 00:33:36,684
But I'm I'm I'm there too.
528
00:33:37,319 --> 00:33:38,759
You can follow me there.
529
00:33:38,919 --> 00:33:43,000
I don't I'm not I haven't been that active
because I haven't been allowed to be that
530
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:47,719
active, but I'm probably gonna be a little bit
more active these days.
531
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:55,625
And, honestly, you know, the corporate world is
is sort of I I think some of the things that
532
00:33:55,625 --> 00:34:01,465
are happening in the corporate side of
podcasting, there's a little bit of there's a
533
00:34:01,465 --> 00:34:07,170
lot of wishes, I think, that are happening, and
not a lot of those wishes are obviously based
534
00:34:07,170 --> 00:34:08,050
in reality.
535
00:34:08,449 --> 00:34:14,449
And I think that I come from a space where I'm
a 100% based in reality.
536
00:34:14,449 --> 00:34:16,449
I look at the metrics.
537
00:34:16,449 --> 00:34:17,410
I look at the stats.
538
00:34:18,035 --> 00:34:24,835
I dive deep into the data, which keeps me
grounded into exactly what is working and what
539
00:34:24,835 --> 00:34:25,954
isn't working.
540
00:34:26,114 --> 00:34:28,755
And I'm not saying that video isn't working.
541
00:34:28,914 --> 00:34:35,329
What I'm saying is your video strategy has to
be different than what your audio strategy is.
542
00:34:35,650 --> 00:34:42,050
And, oh, by the way, that was figured out many,
many years ago because we have television
543
00:34:42,050 --> 00:34:44,289
stations and radio stations.
544
00:34:44,449 --> 00:34:46,804
They're not the same station.
545
00:34:46,885 --> 00:34:51,284
They're different mediums, and they're
different mediums, for a reason because people
546
00:34:51,284 --> 00:34:54,085
interact with them in a different manner.
547
00:34:54,324 --> 00:34:57,924
So you can work with them in a different
manner.
548
00:34:57,924 --> 00:34:59,764
You can sell them in a different manner.
549
00:35:00,110 --> 00:35:02,110
Video is obviously visual.
550
00:35:02,349 --> 00:35:08,349
I can create an ad that happens right now that
I can continue talking about what it is that
551
00:35:08,349 --> 00:35:11,070
I'm talking about that doesn't get interrupted.
552
00:35:11,070 --> 00:35:15,344
But there's still an ad there, and somebody's
going to see it, and somebody's still going to
553
00:35:15,344 --> 00:35:16,625
be impressed by it.
554
00:35:16,704 --> 00:35:21,825
And because you didn't interrupt this
conversation to play that ad, they're actually
555
00:35:21,825 --> 00:35:28,130
probably more likely to go and look into what
that product is all about that my host just
556
00:35:28,130 --> 00:35:29,090
told me, hey.
557
00:35:29,090 --> 00:35:33,090
This is important to me for you to go and
support the show.
558
00:35:33,730 --> 00:35:38,530
There's a lot of old things that we've
forgotten as podcasters that we don't do
559
00:35:38,530 --> 00:35:38,849
anymore.
560
00:35:39,315 --> 00:35:41,795
We don't we forgotten the call to action.
561
00:35:41,795 --> 00:35:45,474
We forgotten to remind our audience that, hey.
562
00:35:45,954 --> 00:35:46,275
Yeah.
563
00:35:46,275 --> 00:35:48,755
Ads suck, but they're here for a reason.
564
00:35:48,755 --> 00:35:52,355
They're here to help me continue to create this
content that you want.
565
00:35:53,099 --> 00:35:58,940
So the more that I can impress on the audience
that you're helping me out by purchasing these
566
00:35:58,940 --> 00:36:05,099
products is key to the success of the
podcaster, especially from a business point of
567
00:36:05,099 --> 00:36:05,260
view.
568
00:36:05,724 --> 00:36:08,125
But that goes beyond just the independent
podcast.
569
00:36:08,125 --> 00:36:10,684
That goes for the corporate podcasters as well.
570
00:36:11,085 --> 00:36:14,125
They seem to have forgotten what advertising is
all about.
571
00:36:14,204 --> 00:36:18,989
They seem to think that they're going to get
advertisers just to make money, not
572
00:36:18,989 --> 00:36:22,429
understanding that at the end of the day, you
gotta sell that product.
573
00:36:22,429 --> 00:36:27,309
And if your content's not selling that product,
then you have a problem in your chain.
574
00:36:27,710 --> 00:36:30,750
So make sure that your podcasters are selling
the product.
575
00:36:31,554 --> 00:36:33,074
And how are they selling that product?
576
00:36:33,074 --> 00:36:37,554
They're telling their audience that the product
is important to them to help keep this content
577
00:36:37,554 --> 00:36:38,755
coming for them.
578
00:36:39,315 --> 00:36:46,195
And on top of that, we talked about some of
those other podcasters that you mentioned, how
579
00:36:45,789 --> 00:36:49,949
they've made friends with some of the biggest
podcasters in the world.
580
00:36:50,190 --> 00:36:51,789
Well, that's part of podcasting.
581
00:36:51,789 --> 00:36:54,750
That's part of your evolution as a podcaster
too.
582
00:36:54,750 --> 00:36:57,630
It's not just about building your own
community.
583
00:36:57,630 --> 00:37:01,150
It's about becoming part of the larger
podcasting community.
584
00:37:01,545 --> 00:37:08,424
And as you make those friends, moving along the
channel, they can help you build your audience
585
00:37:08,424 --> 00:37:09,545
at the same time.
586
00:37:09,784 --> 00:37:13,944
So that when you do bump into Joe Rogan and you
find out that you have a lot of common
587
00:37:13,944 --> 00:37:18,989
interests and that he does take a liking to you
and enjoys your content just as much as you
588
00:37:18,989 --> 00:37:25,789
enjoy his, he'll recommend your show to his
audience, and he obviously has a ginormous
589
00:37:25,789 --> 00:37:26,269
audience.
590
00:37:26,765 --> 00:37:30,765
So I'm not saying, like, everybody's gonna go
become best friends with Joe Rogan.
591
00:37:31,405 --> 00:37:36,285
But at the end of the day, you are gonna become
friends with somebody at some point, and that's
592
00:37:36,285 --> 00:37:41,085
the beauty of podcast conferences like Podcast
Movement, which is coming up in September.
593
00:37:42,059 --> 00:37:45,739
And so I'll be much more involved in a lot of
these things.
594
00:37:45,739 --> 00:37:48,059
And I think that's part of it.
595
00:37:48,059 --> 00:37:54,700
Corporate corporate podcasting has gone to a
back to the old days of, like, well, you are my
596
00:37:54,700 --> 00:37:56,380
enemy, and I have to fight against you.
597
00:37:56,380 --> 00:38:01,505
And I've I can't share any information with you
because the but that's not what podcasting is
598
00:38:01,505 --> 00:38:01,985
all about.
599
00:38:01,985 --> 00:38:07,344
Podcasting is all about sharing and helping
others in the rising tide lifting all boats.
600
00:38:07,585 --> 00:38:12,820
That doesn't happen a lot in the corporate
side, And I think that's part of the problem
601
00:38:12,820 --> 00:38:13,940
for the corporates.
602
00:38:14,019 --> 00:38:19,619
They don't understand how to be successful in
this medium because they think it's all about,
603
00:38:19,860 --> 00:38:24,179
you know, building their walled castle and
keeping the enemy out.
604
00:38:24,575 --> 00:38:30,015
Whereas in podcasting, it's about bringing
everybody in, and everybody helps contribute to
605
00:38:30,015 --> 00:38:31,454
the success of everything.
606
00:38:32,974 --> 00:38:33,375
Yeah.
607
00:38:33,375 --> 00:38:35,535
They they kind of missed the point.
608
00:38:35,775 --> 00:38:41,210
They backed up the dump trucks of money and all
the brake trucks, right, and unloaded into it,
609
00:38:41,210 --> 00:38:44,010
you know, over the last, I would say, five
years.
610
00:38:44,250 --> 00:38:50,730
And now they're seeing almost no ROI or
obviously less or or, you know, you wouldn't
611
00:38:50,730 --> 00:38:52,570
be, you know, losing your gig.
612
00:38:52,570 --> 00:38:52,889
Right?
613
00:38:52,889 --> 00:38:58,105
And it it's sad that someone who could help
them get out of the quagmire that they're in,
614
00:38:58,585 --> 00:39:04,025
they're pushing to the side, but no doubt that
they'll be they'll be fine.
615
00:39:04,344 --> 00:39:10,719
Cumulus isn't going anywhere with with their
large footprint, But I think that you are are
616
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:14,799
going to get back out and to be extremely
successful, and I hope that you have an
617
00:39:14,799 --> 00:39:19,920
opportunity to help a lot more people with your
consulting and starting a new podcast.
618
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:26,755
I'm really excited to see the this next version
of Podvader out there after having spent the
619
00:39:26,755 --> 00:39:32,275
last five years not doing podcasts and not, you
know, being more behind the scenes, getting you
620
00:39:32,275 --> 00:39:37,730
back out there and the insights and the
knowledge that you've gained being a part of
621
00:39:37,730 --> 00:39:43,329
that, the big part of that corporate world now
on these shifting sands and bringing that back
622
00:39:43,329 --> 00:39:45,489
to the to the podcasters.
623
00:39:46,034 --> 00:39:47,714
Huge shot to Podcast Movement.
624
00:39:47,714 --> 00:39:52,514
They gave me a scholarship ticket to go down to
their event in Grapevine, Texas last year.
625
00:39:52,835 --> 00:39:53,714
Had a great time.
626
00:39:53,714 --> 00:39:55,234
Got to meet Adam Curry.
627
00:39:55,234 --> 00:40:00,190
And it was really listening to his was
probably, what, a year and a half in at that
628
00:40:00,190 --> 00:40:00,510
point.
629
00:40:00,510 --> 00:40:05,710
And listening to his, you know, talk was all
about build a small community.
630
00:40:05,710 --> 00:40:09,710
That community will will support you and and
will grow with you.
631
00:40:09,710 --> 00:40:12,045
And, really, don't worry about the views.
632
00:40:12,045 --> 00:40:17,164
Don't worry about these CPM models and these
shifting sands that you're standing on with all
633
00:40:17,164 --> 00:40:21,885
of these these moving goalposts or whatever
other analogy I can come up within the next
634
00:40:21,885 --> 00:40:22,684
five seconds.
635
00:40:23,005 --> 00:40:25,579
It's about building community.
636
00:40:25,579 --> 00:40:27,500
And I literally kinda was like, okay.
637
00:40:27,500 --> 00:40:27,900
Thank you.
638
00:40:27,900 --> 00:40:32,380
Took my headphones off, put them back in the
bin, and said, see you later.
639
00:40:32,380 --> 00:40:37,739
I I had a great time, and I connected with a
lot of, you know, industry folks there and
640
00:40:37,739 --> 00:40:38,380
others.
641
00:40:38,380 --> 00:40:43,485
But I realized that that was a little bit of
the confidence that I needed in myself to say,
642
00:40:43,485 --> 00:40:43,885
hey.
643
00:40:43,885 --> 00:40:47,164
You're on the right path on the way that you
are building this thing.
644
00:40:47,244 --> 00:40:48,204
Just keep going.
645
00:40:48,204 --> 00:40:51,644
It's not gonna happen overnight, there's a lot
of work ahead of you.
646
00:40:51,644 --> 00:40:52,844
Just go get back to work.
647
00:40:54,610 --> 00:40:55,090
Yeah.
648
00:40:55,090 --> 00:40:59,409
I think, you know, Adam created podcasting.
649
00:40:59,409 --> 00:41:00,690
He is the pod father.
650
00:41:01,329 --> 00:41:08,965
And his vision, I still think, remains strong
and the strongest for the podcasting community
651
00:41:08,965 --> 00:41:09,925
as a whole.
652
00:41:10,405 --> 00:41:17,284
I think if you follow what he says and what he
recommends, you're not gonna go wrong, because,
653
00:41:17,284 --> 00:41:20,724
ultimately, you're going to build your
community.
654
00:41:20,724 --> 00:41:22,804
And like we said, community helps each other.
655
00:41:23,550 --> 00:41:25,230
And they're gonna prop you up.
656
00:41:25,230 --> 00:41:26,590
They're gonna be loyal to you.
657
00:41:26,590 --> 00:41:30,750
They're going to help you when you need help
the most and vice versa.
658
00:41:30,750 --> 00:41:36,030
You're gonna help others in your community, and
others in your community are gonna help others
659
00:41:36,030 --> 00:41:36,910
in the community.
660
00:41:36,910 --> 00:41:42,184
It's just that's the way that we as humans
survive.
661
00:41:42,184 --> 00:41:45,065
Never mind podcasting or anything else.
662
00:41:45,065 --> 00:41:51,240
Just as human beings, like, being part of a
community is part of our nature.
663
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:56,440
It's what helps us to live and breathe and
survive in this world.
664
00:41:56,599 --> 00:42:00,440
And if we can remember that, then we're gonna
be just fine.
665
00:42:00,519 --> 00:42:06,974
And if we can you know, not to take it too far
down, but if we can remember that, we can sort
666
00:42:06,974 --> 00:42:13,295
of forget this whole red state, blue state
thing and sort of understand that the real
667
00:42:13,295 --> 00:42:14,815
truth lies in the middle.
668
00:42:15,369 --> 00:42:16,730
Sorta like content.
669
00:42:16,730 --> 00:42:22,329
When I talk about creating content, I wanna get
as many different perspectives as I can because
670
00:42:22,329 --> 00:42:24,250
that's gonna give me the real truth.
671
00:42:24,329 --> 00:42:27,369
We can understand that and and come to that
point.
672
00:42:28,265 --> 00:42:29,704
We used to have that.
673
00:42:29,704 --> 00:42:31,224
We don't seem to have that anymore.
674
00:42:31,224 --> 00:42:33,465
It's only my idea is the only idea.
675
00:42:33,465 --> 00:42:33,704
No.
676
00:42:33,704 --> 00:42:34,505
It's not.
677
00:42:34,825 --> 00:42:38,825
By the way, some of the things I said today,
I'm sure there's somebody out there that's
678
00:42:38,825 --> 00:42:40,265
like, he is full of it.
679
00:42:40,670 --> 00:42:42,349
Like, there's no what now.
680
00:42:42,349 --> 00:42:44,190
He doesn't know what he's talking about.
681
00:42:44,349 --> 00:42:46,910
My opinion is way different than his.
682
00:42:47,230 --> 00:42:49,710
And that's a 100% okay.
683
00:42:49,950 --> 00:42:54,750
And by the way, your opinion and your
strategies might work just as well as mine.
684
00:42:55,175 --> 00:42:58,614
I'm not saying that I know all the answers
because I don't.
685
00:42:58,934 --> 00:43:02,695
But at the end of the day, I've been here for a
while.
686
00:43:02,775 --> 00:43:03,974
I know what works.
687
00:43:03,974 --> 00:43:10,135
I know what doesn't work, and I can help you
find that way if that's what you're looking
688
00:43:10,135 --> 00:43:10,375
for.
689
00:43:11,809 --> 00:43:14,610
I think that's a great place to cut it off,
Jay.
690
00:43:15,010 --> 00:43:17,170
Had an awesome conversation with you.
691
00:43:17,170 --> 00:43:19,170
Just really appreciate your time.
692
00:43:19,170 --> 00:43:25,345
Like I said, really looking forward to this
next iteration of of Podvader, getting back out
693
00:43:25,345 --> 00:43:28,065
there and and getting back into the podcasting
world.
694
00:43:28,065 --> 00:43:32,864
Looking forward to following whatever the new
show is or or possibly shows that you're doing.
695
00:43:32,864 --> 00:43:34,785
Whether, maybe you'll get back into sports.
696
00:43:34,785 --> 00:43:35,184
Who knows?
697
00:43:36,690 --> 00:43:38,369
I mean, I'm not against it.
698
00:43:38,369 --> 00:43:39,250
That's for sure.
699
00:43:39,250 --> 00:43:40,769
I do love my sports.
700
00:43:40,769 --> 00:43:47,250
I do love my Patriots, and, you know, we're
looking at a very interesting upcoming NFL
701
00:43:47,250 --> 00:43:48,210
season for sure.
702
00:43:48,785 --> 00:43:49,265
Well, we'll
703
00:43:49,265 --> 00:43:53,744
have to get you back on the sports network at
some point and and talk some football with you,
704
00:43:53,744 --> 00:43:53,985
man.
705
00:43:53,985 --> 00:43:55,585
I would absolutely love that.
706
00:43:55,744 --> 00:43:57,265
Everybody check out Jay.
707
00:43:57,265 --> 00:44:00,625
Go find him on LinkedIn, linkedin.com/podvader.
708
00:44:01,230 --> 00:44:06,030
Jay Soderberg, thank you so much for joining me
today, giving me a little bit of your time, and
709
00:44:06,030 --> 00:44:07,949
thank you for being part of the scene.
710
00:44:08,349 --> 00:44:09,630
Bubba, thank you.
711
00:44:10,670 --> 00:44:12,110
Gladly come back anytime.
