206: Sam Walker - The Hidden Force That Creates The World's Greatest Teams

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What was fascinating is that on the high-performing teams, there
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was always a leader who did exactly what Duncan did,
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circulated widely, talking to individuals with great intensity and short bursts.
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They call these people charismatic connectors. And I realized then that.
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We have a completely backwards idea of how you motivate
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people and how you communicate.
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We think you've got to give a speech. You've got
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to fire up the troops. You've got to be someone
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who just radiates charisma and passion and intensity.
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But Really, the opposite is true.
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None of those outward qualities matter.
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It's all about a leader who.
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Is constantly engaging and constantly talking about the matter at
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hand in a low-key way.
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Hey, and welcome to the Learning Leader Show. I am
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Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. It
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is Mindful Monday. Go to learningleader.com. Enter your email address.
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the latest, most insightful thoughts on leadership from the past weeks. Articles, books,
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TED Talks, videos, discussion back and forth.
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Love to have you.
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Learningleader.com, enter your email address for Mindful Monday. On to
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tonight's episode. It's with award-winning writer Sam Walker, the Wall
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Street Journal's Deputy Editor for Enterprise, the unit that oversees
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the paper's in-depth page one features, investigative reporting, projects, and
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His most recent book, it's an incredible one, titled The
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Captain Class, The Hidden Force That Creates the World's Greatest Teams.
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It will be a bestseller for sure. Some of the
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things Sam and I talked about. What it means to
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be a charismatic connector. Then the seven traits of elite captains,
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followed up by why continuous practical communication is more effective
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than big speeches. Ladies and gentlemen, you'll love this one
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with Sam Walker. All right, Sam, anytime I can talk
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to somebody who has. done a lot of work in
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regards to great teams and specifically the leaders of those teams,
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the captains. That means a lot to me. And it
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really piqued my interest when I first, I think I
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mentioned you, saw a speech you gave and it was
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shared via social media and uh, the, the seven traits
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of elite captains. And I, I, I immediately said, I
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got to talk to this Sam Walker guy. He's writing
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this incredible book. I think it's going to be neat
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to learn about great teams. So first of all, welcome
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to the learning leader show.
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Thanks Ryan. I'm really happy to be here.
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So I like to, uh, to get things kickstarted typically
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with a question around leaders and people that you've studied
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that have a common theme.
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And that is if they've been able to sustain excellence.
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Meaning they are not one hit wonders. They maybe they
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didn't just win one championship for the sake of talking.
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Sports, but they have sustained it over time.
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And I'm curious if you had to distill it down
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to one or two key common characteristics between those who
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sustained excellence, what would it be?
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Well, If we're talking about teams and longevity of winning,
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that's really what I focused on. I noticed early on,
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I'm sure you've had this bar stool debate. I've had
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it a million times about what's the greatest team of
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all time. I realized immediately when I started trying to
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actually figure it out empirically, that we're not talking about
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the same things a lot of people will point to
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the 1985 Chicago Bears or the 72 Dolphins or the
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2004 Arsenal Invincibles or these these teams that won really
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dramatically in one season but the more I looked into
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it you know I realized when we're talking about winning
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teams we're talking about a culture we're talking about a
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system a combination of personalities that's kind of magical and
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that sustains winning over time and so My feeling was, look,
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if you win one championship, I mean, you know, luck
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plays a role in sports and you can't completely discount it.
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You can't really even discount it for two titles. So ultimately,
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I just sort of leaned on the odds.
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Of coin flipping.
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And I think if you flip a coin and get
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heads four times and that's a six percent chance, I
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felt like at four seasons, it's really almost impossible to
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chalk up a team's performance to luck. So I went
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with that threshold and I felt like that's the way
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to find insights about a winning culture. So once I
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had discovered these teams and really gone through thousands of
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teams and figured out what the 16 best were, that's
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when I started examining them. And what I was looking
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for was the moment they made that turn, the moment
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that they transformed from a good team or even a
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mediocre team into an elite and outstanding one. And What
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was shocking to me– I mean I came into this
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with no prejudices. I thought coaches, right? Maybe tactics. Maybe
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money had something to do with it. And very likely
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it has to do with the presence of a superstar,
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a great player, a transcendent talent. So the first thing
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I noticed, I looked at two teams to start with,
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and one was the Boston Celtics from the late 50s
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and 60s who won 11 titles in 13 years. And
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the second was the New Zealand All Blacks rugby team,
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which in the late 80s didn't lose for four years
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and put on an incredible run. And I noticed immediately
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right away after looking at those two teams that their
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winning streaks corresponded perfectly overlap precisely with the arrival and
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the departure of one player and those players were Bill
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Russell and Buck Shelford and these guys were ultimately became
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the captains and the leaders of these teams so it
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jumped right out and you know frankly I was a
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little skeptical because I thought it was just too easy
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I thought it was too obvious so I went back
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and really examined all these other factors and in the end.
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It's a hard.
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I need to be careful when I explain this because
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no team had... If you look at all the teams,
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there was no pattern. I mean, the coaches had some
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great coaches, some bad. Some had money, some didn't. Some
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were tactically advanced, some weren't. Some had superstars, some had
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mediocre talents. So none of those things apply to all
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of these great teams. The one thing that did, the
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only thing that did, was the presence of this captain
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and It was a certain type of captain, which also
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came as a bit of surprise to me. So I
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want to be clear. A great team has many variables.
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It takes a lot to put on an elite performance.
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But what my research showed absolutely emphatically was that the
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only thing that must be present in order to build
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a sustained winning culture is a certain kind of leader.
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So you have seven traits and I don't, I mean, we'll, we'll,
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we'll go through some of them, which I thought was
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really interesting and probably the basis of, of your talks
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when you go out and maybe we can, we can
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point out some people or how these traits, which led
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to these, the best teams, uh, the traits of the
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captains could maybe, uh, and additionally, uh, translate to the
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business world or people who are looking to, to progress
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within their careers and, and see if there's a correlation.
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I'm not entirely certain there is, but I think there
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might be because I know from playing sports, from being
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a voted captain on different teams, and then going into
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the business world and earning leadership roles, there's a lot
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of similarities, at least for me.
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So I love Sam.
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I think it's an interesting conversation why I wanted to
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talk because you have this angle where you're studying sports
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and success and leadership, and that's my background, and now
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it's in the business world. So If you'd like, we
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can go through some of these traits and I'll name
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one and you could either tell a story or share
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why that's so important.
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Is that cool?
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Sounds great.
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So let's just start with the first one.
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It's extreme doggedness and focus and competition often to the
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point of madness. And let me tell you who I
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think of when I hear that. I think of like
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Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant, these guys who are like
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some would say they are mad about– competing, uh, about
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they're relentless in their approach towards beating the person across
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from them. They trash talk, they use every little slight
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as motivation there.
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That's the point of madness.
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So that's who I think of when I think of
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that elite trait or that trait of an elite captain.
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Yeah. That's who I thought of too.
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When I thought of that, I mean, I think we've
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always looked at Jordan and his incredible competitiveness really on
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and off the court. I mean, he, he kind of
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ran at a hundred miles an hour and was always
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looking for a way to challenge himself. And, you know, it's,
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what's fascinating about Jordan is his retirement. I mean, I
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think he just kind of got ran out of challenges
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in basketball and he needed a new one. He's got
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this sort of hungry soul and he needs to constantly
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prove himself. Um, What I found in studying these captains
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that popped up in my survey is that they that
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wasn't the kind of competitiveness and relentlessness we were talking about.
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You know, they had the ability to be one way
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in competition and completely different outside of competition and competitive.
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On the field of play, they were relentless, and I'll
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give you an example in a minute, but they were relentless,
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but then as soon.
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As the match was over, they were different.
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I mean in competition, they would often do unsportsmanlike things
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or they would push the rules.
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To the absolute limit.
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But then once the game was over, they would kind
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of magically revert to normal. I mean, these were very
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quiet people generally who were almost introverts and homebodies. They
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never got into trouble off the field. They got a
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lot of sleep. They were pretty boring in their personal lives.
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So there was a sharp divide there. And I think
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that's what really distinguishes the greatest captains from the people
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we normally think of like Kobe and MJ.
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Interesting.
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That's interesting because I think you mentioned that as a
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seventh is the presence of a kill switch for shutting
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off emotion when it's not useful. Is that what you
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mean or is that meaning they're able to be calm
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under really pressure-packed moments, which makes me think of a
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guy like Tom Brady who can have ice in his
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veins in the toughest moments of games and he's won
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multiple championships. Is that what you mean or is that
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two separate things?
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Well, there were three traits that, that I split out separately,
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but I think all of them have, um, are somewhat
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related and that's this relentlessness and doggedness and competition.
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The other one is this ironclad.
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Emotional control, which was really amazing. Uh, and you see
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it over and over with these, with these players being
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able to play through negative emotions. And the third one was, uh,
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this ability to test the limits of the rules to, to, um,
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play aggressively right up to the limits of the rules
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and sometimes beyond in order to win. So all of
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those traits were things that these athletes showed in competition,
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but outside of competition, they didn't, there was that kill.
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They were able to, um, just become a different person.
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They were able to have one personality in competition and
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another one off the field. And this to me is
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one of the most interesting and relevant things about the
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book in that, you know, we often look at aggressive
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athletes and we, you know, we see the way they
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play and then we kind of shrug at the fact
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that they get into a bar brawl or they flip
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their Lamborghini and get a DUI. We just think that's
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the way they're wired. But the truth is that's great
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leaders know when to turn it on and turn it off.
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I gotcha.
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Um, which I'm just trying to relate to like current
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sports superstars now. Like LeBron is a guy that people
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say when he gets on the court, he, he, he,
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he just seems to take over to completely dominate to, uh,
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he literally does what he wants a lot of the times. And, uh,
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but then when he gets off the court, you'll see
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him just like taking selfies or his Instagram stories or
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him like wrapping along. It's different than any, it seems
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to be happily married with three kids, has never gotten
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in trouble, has never, at least from what we've seen,
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you know, cheat on his wife like we saw Kobe
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and MJ do. Doesn't seem to have a gambling problem.
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Always seems to do is just drink a little bit
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of wine, but not anything else. I mean, from what
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we can tell. LeBron seems to fit that where he,
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when he gets on the court, he can, he can
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just be the most dominant figure ever. But then when
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he gets off the court, he can be a fun
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loving guy who sings to Instagram.
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I mean, so does he not fit that role?
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No, I think he does. You know, he's a fascinating
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case though. I mean, LeBron is kind of a unicorn.
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I've never seen anyone in sports history who had that
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level of talent that he can really take over a game.
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And, and, you know, it's not just.
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His offensive ability, but I mean, it's his hustle on
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defense and, you know, the way he plays without the
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ball too. So I think he's kind of an anomaly.
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I mean, the other thing that's anomalous about LeBron is his,
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his model of leadership is completely new. I mean, I've
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never seen anything like it and I don't quite know
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what to make of it because he's shown time and
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again that he's the most powerful person on the team.
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I mean, he's, he's got more influence than the coach.
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I mean, he's, he really, yeah.
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I mean, he's, he's really.
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The singular leader of the team. It's almost like a,
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I don't want to say it's a dictatorship. It's too strong,
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but I mean, he's, He's got a level of power
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no athlete has ever had and a level of talent
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to match. So, you know, I think he's a curious case.
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I mean, he's definitely got a lot of the qualities
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that I mentioned. But, you know, I'm watching fascinated. I've
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never seen a team achieve a real dynasty and a
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historic dynasty before. with that kind of leadership model. And,
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you know, if you look at the history of the NBA,
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LeBron's going to have to win a bunch of championships
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in a row if he wants to try to equal
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what the Celtics did, or if he wants to have
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the long-term record that the San Antonio Spurs had put together.
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So he may never get quite over that high bar,
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but he's tremendous. And, you know, the relentlessness I'm talking about, though,
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is a little less obvious, I think, to, uh, than
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someone like LeBron who can score 40 points a game
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at times.
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A good example is Bill Russell.
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And Russell, of course, was the captain of the Celtics
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team that set the probably unachievable record of 11 titles
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in 13 years up until 1969. But my favorite Russell
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story that kind of gives you a window into how
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he played, he wasn't a big scorer. At the time
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in the NBA, the center was supposed to be the
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main engine of the offense, and he never was. And
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he averaged about 15 points a game in his career,
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but he wasn't the main scoring threat.
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So when he.
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Arrived in his first season in 1956, 57, the Celtics.
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Made it finally. They never won a championship.
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They made it to the finals and they got to
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a game seven against the St.
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Louis Hawks. And there were about 40 seconds left in
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the game.
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And Russell, the Celtics had a one point lead and
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Russell got a rebound and charged down the court and
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tried to dunk the ball and missed. And he wound
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up underneath his own basket. So the Hawks very smartly
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made a quick inbound pass to midcourt where a forward
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named Jack Coleman was waiting.
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Coleman was kind of cherry picking. He was behind everybody else.
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Caught the ball with a running start at midcourt and
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had a clear look at the basket and just a
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gimme layup to give the Hawks the lead in the
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final seconds.
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So... Bill Russell, remember, he's underneath his own basket.
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So he's about 96 feet away from the basket.
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He's a rookie.
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He just missed a dunk, which would be humiliating for
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most of us. He sees Coleman get the ball and
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takes off. And the minute Coleman gets to the rim,
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it would have been about three seconds for him to
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run that distance. The minute he goes up and the
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ball leaves his fingertips, Russell appears from nowhere and swats
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the ball away, caroms off the backboard, and the Celtics
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get the rebound. So what he did was run 96
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00:17:06.670 --> 00:17:10.089
feet in three seconds, which, you know, I did some
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rough calculations.
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And if he'd kept.
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That up for 100 meters, he would have won the
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Olympic gold medal by a nose. It was an incredible effort. Sadly,
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it was never captured on video because– They didn't save
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a tape of this game, but everyone calls it the
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Coleman play. They say it was one of the greatest
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defensive acts in the history of the league, and it
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00:17:32.299 --> 00:17:35.680
clearly was given the circumstances. The Celtics went on to
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win and to win the championship. But the thing is,
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think about the mindset of someone who would do that.
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I mean, it wasn't a scoring play. It wasn't a
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statistical play.
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Play.
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None of his teammates even bothered trying to give chase.
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And yet he had the passion and the drive and
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the relentlessness to go after that shot. And that's a,
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I think a great example.
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One of the other surprising things that whenever you think
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of like a great leader or the person in charge
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of word that gets attached to them, I think is
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they have great charisma or they're charismatic and And you
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found from the empirical evidence stated that they were rarely charismatic.
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And one of the examples you use is Tim Duncan
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from the Spurs, who just recently retired, but they'd won
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multiple championships and had certainly sustained excellence. Talk about the
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00:18:36.170 --> 00:18:40.430
myth of charisma when it comes to great leaders and captains.
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This is absolutely something that translates to the business world.
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In fact, I found a ton of fascinating research that
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is in the works and also out now, which suggests
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that this, that the people who make the most effective
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00:18:56.019 --> 00:18:59.059
leaders and have the biggest impact on groups are often
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the people who aren't, don't believe they deserve it, who
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00:19:02.799 --> 00:19:06.309
actually kind of lower their own status within the group. And,
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and those people are automatically given more status by the
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group and are more effective leaders. So Tim Duncan, you know,
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00:19:14.650 --> 00:19:17.349
the two people who epitomize this were amazing. It was
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00:19:17.470 --> 00:19:21.509
Tim Duncan and and Yogi Berra. And if you were
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00:19:21.630 --> 00:19:26.480
asked to name two of the, you know, least charismatic
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or most, you know, inarticulate seeming athletes, they might be
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00:19:32.839 --> 00:19:35.480
on the list. I mean, Berra was famous for kind
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00:19:35.519 --> 00:19:38.509
of having a halting speech pattern and all his funny sayings.
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00:19:38.589 --> 00:19:41.450
And he wasn't, you know, the idea of him reading
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00:19:41.490 --> 00:19:45.400
a motivational speech or is kind of funny to think of.
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00:19:45.500 --> 00:19:48.849
And then there's Duncan, who seemed to have no personality.
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I mean, he gave these sort of monotone answers and
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00:19:51.230 --> 00:19:54.329
interviews and really didn't seek attention and seemed to have
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00:19:54.369 --> 00:19:59.299
a very bland, um, emotional life, uh, you know, on
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00:19:59.339 --> 00:20:01.779
and off the court. He just never just pumped or
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00:20:01.839 --> 00:20:04.039
expressed a lot of emotion. And he got kind of
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00:20:04.059 --> 00:20:06.509
knocked for being boring and, um, You know, when I
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00:20:06.529 --> 00:20:09.690
looked at the Spurs in particular, I said, OK, I've
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00:20:09.710 --> 00:20:12.640
got to figure this out because it makes no sense that,
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you know, this team could have superior communication. So, you know,
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I watched a ton of tape. I went to a
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00:20:20.720 --> 00:20:23.640
Spurs game and sat behind the bench. I talked to
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00:20:23.660 --> 00:20:26.089
a lot of the players. And what I saw was
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00:20:26.130 --> 00:20:29.230
a completely different person when you look closely at Duncan.
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00:20:29.269 --> 00:20:32.529
So what he does is he has these rituals, especially
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00:20:32.549 --> 00:20:37.000
around timeouts and pregame, where He goes and he'll have
379
00:20:37.019 --> 00:20:41.569
these short, intense conversations with everyone on the team, everybody.
380
00:20:41.609 --> 00:20:44.069
And it's usually about the task at hand. It's about
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00:20:44.569 --> 00:20:46.589
something they need to do to adjust their defense or
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00:20:46.670 --> 00:20:49.049
something they need to remember going into the fourth quarter.
383
00:20:49.670 --> 00:20:51.130
And you'll see him talking.
384
00:20:51.170 --> 00:20:54.730
And when he talks, he's not an animated guy, but
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00:20:54.789 --> 00:20:58.720
his eyes are fascinating. He has very clear facial expressions.
386
00:20:58.740 --> 00:21:02.220
He has one for shocked. One for encouragement, one for
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00:21:03.240 --> 00:21:07.960
kind of criticism. And he uses his eyes very purposefully
388
00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:11.109
with the players. He'll lock eyes with them and stare
389
00:21:11.130 --> 00:21:14.650
at them intensely for three or four seconds. And these
390
00:21:14.690 --> 00:21:18.009
are very effective ways of communicating with people and studies
391
00:21:18.049 --> 00:21:18.390
have shown.
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00:21:19.039 --> 00:21:19.799
That they're very good.
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00:21:19.859 --> 00:21:24.660
So he circulates, he talks individually, he doesn't give speeches.
394
00:21:25.200 --> 00:21:28.220
In fact, none of these captains gave speeches, which shocked me.
395
00:21:28.279 --> 00:21:30.609
Many of them avoided talking to the group as a whole.
396
00:21:31.089 --> 00:21:35.190
They all prefer to talk constantly, but to individuals and
397
00:21:35.230 --> 00:21:36.230
about the matter.
398
00:21:35.990 --> 00:21:38.250
At hand in a practical kind of low-key way.
399
00:21:38.910 --> 00:21:42.250
So after watching this, I realized that the Spurs are
400
00:21:42.269 --> 00:21:45.049
a very talkative team. They talk constantly on the court
401
00:21:45.690 --> 00:21:48.950
and off the court. And The person who facilitates that
402
00:21:48.990 --> 00:21:53.170
is Duncan because he creates this sort of open culture
403
00:21:53.210 --> 00:21:57.190
where every mistake is acknowledged, every good deed is rewarded,
404
00:21:57.349 --> 00:21:58.569
everything is done in the moment.
405
00:21:58.809 --> 00:21:59.009
And I.
406
00:22:00.549 --> 00:22:02.910
Found this study that had been done at MIT, which
407
00:22:02.970 --> 00:22:06.950
was just incredible because of the overlap. It was done
408
00:22:06.990 --> 00:22:11.720
in the business world, but they used very high-tech scanners
409
00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:17.309
to measure all aspects of conversations between members of the team, length, intensity,
410
00:22:17.349 --> 00:22:20.809
who was talking to whom. And they discovered that these
411
00:22:20.869 --> 00:22:24.289
communication patterns were the best way to predict the team's performance,
412
00:22:24.369 --> 00:22:27.640
more so than skill or past performance or anything else.
413
00:22:28.380 --> 00:22:31.420
They could tell by the way a team communicated internally
414
00:22:31.920 --> 00:22:34.069
how well it was going to perform. And What was
415
00:22:34.160 --> 00:22:36.730
fascinating is that on the high performing teams, there was
416
00:22:36.829 --> 00:22:41.450
always a leader who did exactly what Duncan did, circulated widely,
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00:22:41.509 --> 00:22:44.710
talking to individuals with great intensity and short bursts.
418
00:22:45.349 --> 00:22:49.730
They call these people charismatic connectors. And I realized then that.
419
00:22:49.950 --> 00:22:53.250
We have a completely backwards idea of how you motivate
420
00:22:53.289 --> 00:22:55.670
people and how you communicate. We think you've got to
421
00:22:55.710 --> 00:22:57.690
give a speech, you've got to fire up the troops,
422
00:22:57.710 --> 00:23:01.690
you've got to be someone who just radiates charisma and
423
00:23:01.779 --> 00:23:02.859
passion and intensity.
424
00:23:02.890 --> 00:23:05.069
But Really, the opposite is true.
425
00:23:05.329 --> 00:23:07.769
None of those outward qualities matter.
426
00:23:07.809 --> 00:23:10.289
It's all about a leader who.
427
00:23:10.369 --> 00:23:14.970
Is constantly engaging and constantly talking about the matter at
428
00:23:15.009 --> 00:23:18.670
hand in a low-key way with people with great energy
429
00:23:18.710 --> 00:23:22.069
and intensity. And that's a lot of work. That's a
430
00:23:22.210 --> 00:23:27.039
constant commitment to upholding the goals of the team. And
431
00:23:27.579 --> 00:23:29.339
that's what distinguishes these great leaders.
432
00:23:29.400 --> 00:23:32.420
They weren't great warriors. They were practical leaders.
433
00:23:32.789 --> 00:23:34.380
Yeah. What made you write this book?
434
00:23:34.960 --> 00:23:37.920
Well, you know, I started off, it all really began
435
00:23:37.960 --> 00:23:40.920
in 2004 when I spent a lot of time with
436
00:23:40.960 --> 00:23:45.819
the Boston Red Sox. And early in that season, you know,
437
00:23:45.839 --> 00:23:48.630
these guys were, they were fun, but they just seemed
438
00:23:48.730 --> 00:23:53.609
completely undisciplined and kind of unserious to me. And, you know,
439
00:23:53.630 --> 00:23:56.710
they seem nothing like the elite sports teams that I'd
440
00:23:56.750 --> 00:23:59.769
been around in the past. And so I was not
441
00:23:59.809 --> 00:24:02.029
surprised at all in July when they fell nine and
442
00:24:02.049 --> 00:24:03.329
a half games behind the Yankees.
443
00:24:03.369 --> 00:24:03.890
I mean, they were.
444
00:24:04.009 --> 00:24:07.210
Basically left for dead and I, you know, it just
445
00:24:07.269 --> 00:24:09.710
seemed like, well, this, this is just not an elite team,
446
00:24:09.750 --> 00:24:15.640
but in August something clicked and it was amazing. The transformation,
447
00:24:15.900 --> 00:24:19.400
suddenly this team had focus and confidence and swagger. I
448
00:24:19.440 --> 00:24:22.039
could feel the difference in the clubhouse when.
449
00:24:21.940 --> 00:24:23.740
I was, uh, when I was there.
450
00:24:23.839 --> 00:24:26.069
And, you know, they went on to not only sneak
451
00:24:26.089 --> 00:24:27.869
into the playoffs, but, you know, they took down the
452
00:24:27.930 --> 00:24:30.730
Yankees after falling behind three games in the American league
453
00:24:30.769 --> 00:24:33.690
championship series. And that was, you know, no team has
454
00:24:33.829 --> 00:24:36.180
ever done that. And then they won the world series
455
00:24:36.220 --> 00:24:38.500
and they broke this curse. It was 86 years old
456
00:24:38.539 --> 00:24:42.240
at the time. So that to me was the final straw.
457
00:24:42.259 --> 00:24:47.119
I just said, I, I don't understand what provides the spark,
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00:24:47.240 --> 00:24:50.789
what allows a team to transform itself from just being
459
00:24:50.849 --> 00:24:53.309
good to being outstanding or extraordinary.
460
00:24:53.470 --> 00:24:55.279
And, I decided at that.
461
00:24:55.119 --> 00:24:57.950
Point to pursue this idea and to try to figure
462
00:24:58.009 --> 00:25:00.549
out what it was. And that's when I decided that
463
00:25:00.589 --> 00:25:03.089
I needed a sample of the greatest teams of all time.
464
00:25:03.150 --> 00:25:04.410
So I did this.
465
00:25:04.349 --> 00:25:07.990
Exhaustive study, which I thought would take two weeks and,
466
00:25:08.009 --> 00:25:11.670
you know, wind up taking 10 years to complete. And
467
00:25:11.789 --> 00:25:13.890
once I had the teams, I really started looking at
468
00:25:13.930 --> 00:25:16.930
the moments where they made the turn and they became extraordinary.
469
00:25:17.029 --> 00:25:19.690
And that's when I stumbled on the captains. And it
470
00:25:19.730 --> 00:25:22.019
was an absolutely clear decision.
471
00:25:22.720 --> 00:25:23.099
Pattern.
472
00:25:23.380 --> 00:25:26.740
I mean, it really was the only thing that was
473
00:25:26.819 --> 00:25:29.779
present in all of these cases at the beginning of
474
00:25:29.839 --> 00:25:31.180
these incredible dynasties.
475
00:25:31.380 --> 00:25:33.640
And then I started looking into their traits.
476
00:25:33.740 --> 00:25:37.230
And the reason it took so long was partly because
477
00:25:37.569 --> 00:25:41.950
I think the research was incredibly exhaustive but difficult. I mean,
478
00:25:41.970 --> 00:25:45.630
it's hard to profile all these people and all these
479
00:25:45.670 --> 00:25:48.940
teams and to rank them the way I did. But Really,
480
00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:51.859
you know, I realized early that I felt like there
481
00:25:51.880 --> 00:25:54.500
was something here and there's something that kind of runs
482
00:25:54.579 --> 00:26:00.180
against our expectations about leadership and about what team greatness is. So,
483
00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:03.250
you know, it was great fun at the same time
484
00:26:03.309 --> 00:26:05.430
and I really felt a commitment to seeing it through
485
00:26:05.509 --> 00:26:08.970
to the end. So, you know, a lot of time transpired,
486
00:26:09.509 --> 00:26:11.950
but I really didn't feel there was any other way
487
00:26:11.970 --> 00:26:12.319
to do it.
488
00:26:12.329 --> 00:26:13.309
I felt like the idea.
489
00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:18.259
that I'd stumbled onto was, was important and I needed
490
00:26:18.279 --> 00:26:19.119
to really give it all.
491
00:26:19.019 --> 00:26:19.880
The time that it needed.
492
00:26:20.799 --> 00:26:23.660
What, so you did a ton of research leading up
493
00:26:23.680 --> 00:26:27.420
to this and we've talked about that there are, there
494
00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:30.039
are already or surprises, but what would you say was
495
00:26:30.059 --> 00:26:34.779
the most surprising piece of, of information you learned through
496
00:26:34.819 --> 00:26:36.200
this deep dive you did?
497
00:26:36.220 --> 00:26:38.869
You know, it's hard to say on one thing.
498
00:26:38.890 --> 00:26:43.710
I think one thing that really shocked me was coaching.
499
00:26:44.779 --> 00:26:49.960
I think in the modern sports world, there's a huge
500
00:26:50.019 --> 00:26:52.519
emphasis put on coaching. I think in the business world,
501
00:26:53.200 --> 00:26:58.069
the same sort of CEO culture is somewhat similar in
502
00:26:58.109 --> 00:27:04.990
that we tend to make the top person the face.
503
00:27:04.210 --> 00:27:05.210
Of the team.
504
00:27:05.829 --> 00:27:08.759
I was really amazed that the coaches– you know, there
505
00:27:08.799 --> 00:27:11.309
were great coaches on these teams. There were also very
506
00:27:11.390 --> 00:27:14.890
mediocre coaches and even some teams that changed coaches and
507
00:27:14.930 --> 00:27:15.430
kept winning.
508
00:27:16.210 --> 00:27:16.630
But what I.
509
00:27:16.710 --> 00:27:20.250
Found was, was I think another interesting point that I
510
00:27:20.329 --> 00:27:24.390
didn't realize. I looked at Vince Lombardi, for example, who
511
00:27:24.430 --> 00:27:27.980
was to Americans, I think the epitome of the great coach.
512
00:27:28.720 --> 00:27:31.559
And I went out to LA and I met with
513
00:27:31.599 --> 00:27:34.900
his defensive captain, Willie Davis. I spent a lot of
514
00:27:34.960 --> 00:27:37.579
time talking to him about it. And You know, I
515
00:27:37.619 --> 00:27:39.039
looked at that team very closely.
516
00:27:39.099 --> 00:27:41.440
I realized, you know, Lombardi was a freak. He was an.
517
00:27:41.460 --> 00:27:45.539
Incredible motivator and an intensely great coach.
518
00:27:45.940 --> 00:27:46.460
There were others.
519
00:27:46.480 --> 00:27:49.869
There's Alex Ferguson from Manchester United who I looked at.
520
00:27:49.970 --> 00:27:53.150
And there were some great coaches in my sample, too.
521
00:27:53.170 --> 00:27:56.950
A guy, Gustav Sebes, who was the coach of the
522
00:27:57.009 --> 00:28:00.549
great Hungarian team in the 1950s. And a guy named
523
00:28:00.589 --> 00:28:05.450
Jock McHale, who was a legendary Australian football coach. And
524
00:28:05.670 --> 00:28:08.680
I looked at them and really studied their stories. You know,
525
00:28:08.720 --> 00:28:11.700
what I realized is that even these elite coaches who
526
00:28:11.779 --> 00:28:17.279
are by all means won some of the greats, none
527
00:28:17.299 --> 00:28:20.700
of them really started to win at an elite level
528
00:28:20.799 --> 00:28:24.549
until they had a captain like this. And all of
529
00:28:24.609 --> 00:28:28.349
them really saw their peak years when they had someone
530
00:28:28.390 --> 00:28:32.440
running the team. And what was interesting was these captains
531
00:28:32.529 --> 00:28:37.069
weren't yes-men. I mean they weren't simply doing the coach's bidding.
532
00:28:38.849 --> 00:28:42.069
They were independent-minded, and they took stands against the coach
533
00:28:42.109 --> 00:28:44.859
and against management and even against the players sometimes. They
534
00:28:44.880 --> 00:28:49.960
were not afraid to have unpopular views and to dissent
535
00:28:50.700 --> 00:28:54.220
against things they didn't think were working. And this presence
536
00:28:54.279 --> 00:28:56.950
of a great coach and then a kind of independent
537
00:28:57.089 --> 00:29:02.210
partner and captain– who sometimes listened and sometimes didn't, that
538
00:29:02.250 --> 00:29:05.569
seemed to be the great formula. So, you know, it's
539
00:29:05.609 --> 00:29:07.549
important to have a great coach, but I think a
540
00:29:08.049 --> 00:29:11.309
great coach will never achieve top results without this kind
541
00:29:11.329 --> 00:29:11.910
of captain.
542
00:29:12.319 --> 00:29:14.140
Yeah, I mean, I guess, though, if you look at
543
00:29:14.319 --> 00:29:20.000
any winning coach, any winning team, I mean, you rarely
544
00:29:20.019 --> 00:29:22.319
are going to see him without, whether, if you look
545
00:29:22.359 --> 00:29:26.410
at the three main sports, Um, in America, I should say,
546
00:29:26.450 --> 00:29:28.470
cause for all the international issues, the three main sports
547
00:29:28.490 --> 00:29:31.559
in America, baseball, uh, football.
548
00:29:31.220 --> 00:29:33.380
And, and, uh, basketball, baseball, football.
549
00:29:33.980 --> 00:29:37.309
Um, I mean, if they go hand in hand, it
550
00:29:37.349 --> 00:29:40.200
seems like it, I mean, Phil Jackson is not going
551
00:29:40.220 --> 00:29:43.829
to win without MJ, Scottie Pippen, Kobe Bryant, Shaq.
552
00:29:44.480 --> 00:29:45.920
Popovich and Tim Duncan.
553
00:29:46.220 --> 00:29:49.220
Popovich is one of those ones who's sustained excellence and
554
00:29:49.240 --> 00:29:51.940
I would say is a great coach, but certainly they
555
00:29:52.000 --> 00:29:54.680
all need good players though. So I just wonder about
556
00:29:54.759 --> 00:30:01.670
that specific, or whether it's Belichick, Brady, Bill Walsh, Joe Montana.
557
00:30:01.690 --> 00:30:04.809
I mean, they all need a great player and in football,
558
00:30:04.849 --> 00:30:08.390
typically it's got to be a great quarterback. So I mean,
559
00:30:08.410 --> 00:30:10.809
I got to believe though that a great coach can
560
00:30:10.849 --> 00:30:14.599
make a significant difference in a team versus a bad coach.
561
00:30:14.619 --> 00:30:18.329
I mean, the Cavs fired their coach last year, and
562
00:30:18.349 --> 00:30:21.710
the only difference then was they had Ty Lue, and
563
00:30:21.750 --> 00:30:23.509
it seemed that he made a difference. I'm reading Brian
564
00:30:23.529 --> 00:30:26.740
Winhorse's book on the return of the King from LeBron,
565
00:30:26.779 --> 00:30:29.460
and it's interesting to read about that that actually had
566
00:30:29.500 --> 00:30:31.400
a big impact, as well as some of the role
567
00:30:31.440 --> 00:30:34.000
players who you'd never heard of, like the fact that
568
00:30:34.059 --> 00:30:37.680
James Jones was is a guy that everybody would listen to.
569
00:30:37.720 --> 00:30:39.359
He wasn't even that good of a player. He barely
570
00:30:39.400 --> 00:30:41.839
even played. But he's a guy that they all looked
571
00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:44.680
up to, and he had a captain-type mentality and a
572
00:30:44.759 --> 00:30:48.119
quality in some of these characteristics. So I guess what
573
00:30:48.160 --> 00:30:52.319
I'm saying is every team that wins and every coach
574
00:30:52.380 --> 00:30:56.799
that wins, they have to have good players. They're not
575
00:30:56.819 --> 00:31:00.259
going to start winning without good players. There's probably some
576
00:31:00.299 --> 00:31:03.119
examples of that, but I just find that interesting because
577
00:31:03.160 --> 00:31:05.819
I think a coach has to be important. I've played
578
00:31:05.859 --> 00:31:07.700
for good coaches and I've played for bad coaches and
579
00:31:07.720 --> 00:31:10.359
I notice a distinct difference in my play and our
580
00:31:10.400 --> 00:31:14.170
team's play when we've had good versus average or bad.
581
00:31:15.210 --> 00:31:18.230
Yeah, no, it's a, this is kind of a nuanced
582
00:31:18.309 --> 00:31:21.150
point that I've made. I mean, I think the first
583
00:31:21.210 --> 00:31:26.579
thing I would say is absolutely coaches matter. I mean, it's, it's,
584
00:31:26.690 --> 00:31:29.039
and having a great coach is definitely an asset to
585
00:31:29.059 --> 00:31:32.359
a team. So, but there's a difference that I found
586
00:31:32.440 --> 00:31:37.220
between Winning a championship or two championships or just being
587
00:31:37.240 --> 00:31:40.269
kind of consistently good over a long period of time
588
00:31:40.769 --> 00:31:44.950
and this kind of sustained freakish excellence that that I
589
00:31:44.990 --> 00:31:48.130
was looking for. And, you know, that to me is
590
00:31:48.150 --> 00:31:51.519
the magic elixir, because I think a great coach can
591
00:31:51.579 --> 00:31:53.700
power a team forward. I think we've seen that in
592
00:31:53.720 --> 00:31:56.720
some of the people you've mentioned. And so can a superstar.
593
00:31:56.759 --> 00:32:00.160
And we see it now with LeBron. And that's valuable
594
00:32:00.759 --> 00:32:03.099
and important and you can win that way. But I
595
00:32:03.180 --> 00:32:06.799
think the idea is there are just certain teams that
596
00:32:07.160 --> 00:32:11.630
get to this freakish level where they just know nothing
597
00:32:11.710 --> 00:32:15.730
else but winning. And it's a culture. It's something indescribable.
598
00:32:16.210 --> 00:32:18.289
It's a team that's far greater than the sum of
599
00:32:18.349 --> 00:32:22.670
its parts. And this is something that needs to be created,
600
00:32:22.690 --> 00:32:27.039
but both created and sustained. And Again, the only thing
601
00:32:27.059 --> 00:32:31.059
that I found on those kind of freakish teams is
602
00:32:31.099 --> 00:32:34.680
that the captain's role was the one thing that really
603
00:32:34.720 --> 00:32:37.869
held it together. I mean, you know, some of these teams,
604
00:32:38.119 --> 00:32:40.769
I have to say, I looked at the Brazilian soccer
605
00:32:40.789 --> 00:32:44.369
dynasty from 58 to 62 where they won two World
606
00:32:44.430 --> 00:32:47.450
Cups and, you know, essentially didn't lose.
607
00:32:47.250 --> 00:32:48.470
For that whole period.
608
00:32:48.630 --> 00:32:53.660
And, you know, the coach of that team was– you know,
609
00:32:53.700 --> 00:32:58.089
he was famous for falling asleep on the bench. I mean,
610
00:32:58.130 --> 00:33:00.789
he was a sort of heavy-lidded kind of guy who
611
00:33:00.829 --> 00:33:04.609
was very mellow and didn't really weigh in. He let
612
00:33:04.630 --> 00:33:08.670
the veteran players run the team. And, you know, he
613
00:33:08.690 --> 00:33:11.730
may have been a great calming presence and very good
614
00:33:12.130 --> 00:33:14.170
person who didn't get in the way of anything. But
615
00:33:14.210 --> 00:33:17.910
the idea that he somehow drove that team forward, it's
616
00:33:17.950 --> 00:33:21.329
just not possible he wasn't really actively leading the team
617
00:33:21.690 --> 00:33:23.769
and there were a lot of examples too of teams
618
00:33:23.829 --> 00:33:26.430
that you know whose coaches left even the celtics right
619
00:33:26.509 --> 00:33:29.160
auerbach uh retired in the middle of their streak and
620
00:33:29.180 --> 00:33:31.619
you know russell took over as coach and they won
621
00:33:31.980 --> 00:33:35.299
uh two or three more titles after that so you
622
00:33:35.319 --> 00:33:37.579
know i think it's i think we got it we're
623
00:33:37.660 --> 00:33:41.089
really what we're really talking about here isn't uh the
624
00:33:41.170 --> 00:33:44.089
formula for winning a championship or two i think we're
625
00:33:44.130 --> 00:33:47.490
talking about How a team becomes something greater and a
626
00:33:47.529 --> 00:33:51.670
team becomes not an extension of one person's personality or
627
00:33:51.730 --> 00:33:56.500
talent but becomes a body unto itself that.
628
00:33:56.400 --> 00:33:59.299
Plays by its own rules. And I think when that happens.
629
00:33:59.359 --> 00:34:02.059
The reason it happens is because there's a captain, someone
630
00:34:02.099 --> 00:34:06.200
like Tim Duncan, who's behind the scenes working his ass
631
00:34:06.359 --> 00:34:09.920
off to make sure that it stays that way and
632
00:34:09.940 --> 00:34:11.099
that culture is sustained.
633
00:34:12.210 --> 00:34:15.210
I love that story of the way of his rituals
634
00:34:15.230 --> 00:34:19.309
and the way that he communicates. And another one of
635
00:34:19.349 --> 00:34:21.909
the elite or one of the traits of elite captains
636
00:34:21.969 --> 00:34:24.650
you write is a talent for displaying their commitment and
637
00:34:24.710 --> 00:34:28.530
motivating teammates through aggressive, nonverbal means.
638
00:34:28.570 --> 00:34:29.250
What do you mean by that?
639
00:34:30.429 --> 00:34:34.619
Well, so there were several players on my list, several
640
00:34:34.659 --> 00:34:37.940
captains who were a little different from that model I
641
00:34:37.980 --> 00:34:42.679
talked about, sort of Duncan communication model. And There were
642
00:34:42.780 --> 00:34:46.949
two that I'll mention. The first was Jack Lambert. Jack
643
00:34:46.989 --> 00:34:50.869
Lambert was the middle linebacker of the Steelers. He was,
644
00:34:51.309 --> 00:34:56.110
in his time, considered a complete maniac. If you remember him,
645
00:34:56.289 --> 00:35:00.409
he was missing two front teeth. He had this wild
646
00:35:00.429 --> 00:35:03.070
look in his eyes. He just looked like a Western gunslinger.
647
00:35:04.170 --> 00:35:09.280
He would crouch behind a line and hammer.
648
00:35:08.940 --> 00:35:11.849
His legs like he was sort of twitching. with rage.
649
00:35:12.550 --> 00:35:15.239
And he was, you know, with pound quarterbacks, even if
650
00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:17.780
they were, you know, almost out of bounds. And he
651
00:35:17.820 --> 00:35:21.860
had a reputation for being fearsome. The interesting thing about Lambert,
652
00:35:22.599 --> 00:35:24.989
he did communicate with his teammates a lot. In fact,
653
00:35:25.030 --> 00:35:28.070
the Steelers would go to the sauna after the games
654
00:35:28.150 --> 00:35:31.329
and to talk kind of privately away from the coaches.
655
00:35:31.369 --> 00:35:34.179
And it was a brutally honest environment where everyone's play
656
00:35:34.219 --> 00:35:36.809
was critiqued. And Lambert was the first one in in
657
00:35:36.849 --> 00:35:39.550
the last league. And that was his place where he
658
00:35:39.610 --> 00:35:42.860
really talked to the players practically about what was going on.
659
00:35:42.940 --> 00:35:44.900
And he was very vocal also on the field. But
660
00:35:45.599 --> 00:35:48.460
Lambert had another quality, which I just couldn't figure out.
661
00:35:49.599 --> 00:35:55.619
He did things on purpose in games because he knew
662
00:35:55.760 --> 00:36:00.800
that seeing these aggressive players, acts, uh, would fire up
663
00:36:00.840 --> 00:36:03.829
his teammates and, and intimidate the opponents probably at the
664
00:36:03.869 --> 00:36:06.590
same time. My favorite example was this game against Cincinnati
665
00:36:07.309 --> 00:36:11.650
in 76, I believe it was. And, uh, they, the
666
00:36:11.670 --> 00:36:13.869
Sears got out to a bad start. They were one
667
00:36:13.909 --> 00:36:16.070
in four and they were, you know, people had written
668
00:36:16.110 --> 00:36:20.110
them off, uh, as the defending Superbowl champions that people
669
00:36:20.150 --> 00:36:23.840
out there were done. So he played the most incredible game.
670
00:36:23.880 --> 00:36:26.679
I think it was career with something like 18 tackles
671
00:36:26.760 --> 00:36:32.519
and He single-handedly accounted for 10 points with fumbled recoveries.
672
00:36:32.659 --> 00:36:35.639
It was probably his greatest game. So in the middle
673
00:36:35.659 --> 00:36:37.260
of that game, he had a cut on his hand,
674
00:36:37.860 --> 00:36:40.860
a deep cut on his palm, and it was bandaged up.
675
00:36:40.900 --> 00:36:44.500
The bandages failed. Blood started spurting out all over his uniform.
676
00:36:44.599 --> 00:36:47.590
I mean his pants, his jersey was a complete gory mess.
677
00:36:48.409 --> 00:36:52.650
So I asked one of the former trainers, I said, well,
678
00:36:52.670 --> 00:36:55.690
why didn't you change his uniform? Why didn't you change
679
00:36:55.730 --> 00:36:59.099
the bandages? And he sort of laughed and said, oh,
680
00:36:59.119 --> 00:37:02.900
we wouldn't have even approached him about that. He would
681
00:37:02.920 --> 00:37:07.389
have said no. Lambert, he said, was the biggest motivator,
682
00:37:07.429 --> 00:37:10.710
intimidator I'd ever seen. He loved having blood on his uniform.
683
00:37:10.809 --> 00:37:16.250
He absolutely wanted to. And You know, everything he did
684
00:37:16.329 --> 00:37:18.369
when you look at it was calculated. I mean, all
685
00:37:18.409 --> 00:37:21.809
the crazy behavior on the field. I mean, he had
686
00:37:21.849 --> 00:37:24.889
a denture. He didn't have to have missing teeth on
687
00:37:24.929 --> 00:37:27.550
the field, but he knew the message it sent. And
688
00:37:27.590 --> 00:37:30.329
Lambert's interesting because, you know what, he was undersized. He
689
00:37:30.369 --> 00:37:34.630
was really small for a linebacker. And his grades for
690
00:37:34.929 --> 00:37:38.050
athletic ability were all, you know, Bs. I mean, he
691
00:37:38.090 --> 00:37:40.860
wasn't super fast. He wasn't an athlete. I don't think
692
00:37:40.880 --> 00:37:43.199
he would have been able to play in the modern NFL.
693
00:37:43.679 --> 00:37:46.360
Yet he was incredible. He studied tape. He was always
694
00:37:46.380 --> 00:37:48.760
in the right place at the right time. And he
695
00:37:48.800 --> 00:37:52.059
developed this fearsome reputation, which made him way better than
696
00:37:52.500 --> 00:37:54.820
he should have been given his athletic ability.
697
00:37:54.889 --> 00:37:58.710
So that level, I've looked at a lot of the science.
698
00:37:58.989 --> 00:38:03.989
And there's a whole genre of science that shows how
699
00:38:04.489 --> 00:38:10.409
these aggressive displays, these nonverbal, passionate things that leaders do
700
00:38:10.929 --> 00:38:15.449
have an immediate impact. subconscious impact on people like we're
701
00:38:15.550 --> 00:38:19.309
actually able to feel a paler version of an emotion
702
00:38:19.329 --> 00:38:22.250
that we see in somebody else and there's this sort
703
00:38:22.269 --> 00:38:27.219
of invisible neural network between people and on a team
704
00:38:27.699 --> 00:38:29.840
you know the studies show that leaders that are able
705
00:38:29.860 --> 00:38:34.099
to tap into that interconnection are much more effective in
706
00:38:34.179 --> 00:38:37.280
terms of getting people to perform at higher levels and
707
00:38:37.300 --> 00:38:40.199
i think these captains understood that and many of them
708
00:38:40.260 --> 00:38:43.840
did these sorts of things in the field knowing that
709
00:38:43.889 --> 00:38:45.760
it would have an impact and it would make their
710
00:38:45.780 --> 00:38:46.199
team better.
711
00:38:46.579 --> 00:38:49.840
Really about having a purpose behind everything you do. There's
712
00:38:49.860 --> 00:38:52.719
a reason behind what he did as far as how
713
00:38:52.780 --> 00:38:56.559
he could see it would lift up his teammates. When
714
00:38:56.599 --> 00:38:59.199
I was looking at the fact that one of the
715
00:38:59.260 --> 00:39:03.059
traits is the fact that they possess remarkable emotional self-control,
716
00:39:03.699 --> 00:39:06.260
it made me think of my recent conversation with Liz
717
00:39:06.320 --> 00:39:09.280
Weissman where she told me that great leaders, quote from her,
718
00:39:09.340 --> 00:39:13.050
great leaders have a buffer between the stimulus of and
719
00:39:13.090 --> 00:39:16.719
their response. And I've gotten advice from other mentors of
720
00:39:16.780 --> 00:39:21.119
mine that tell me that one of the keys to
721
00:39:21.199 --> 00:39:24.739
leading is there will be moments in your career, both
722
00:39:24.789 --> 00:39:26.289
in this, this is why I think it helped me
723
00:39:26.329 --> 00:39:29.570
playing quarterback, but there'll be moments in my career where
724
00:39:29.690 --> 00:39:30.699
there will be.
725
00:39:31.059 --> 00:39:32.300
Negative things happening.
726
00:39:32.739 --> 00:39:35.500
You'll be in a meeting and odd things will be said,
727
00:39:36.380 --> 00:39:39.179
and it's on you to respond. You don't have to
728
00:39:39.320 --> 00:39:43.260
not have emotion. It's okay to show emotion sometimes. In fact, it's, it's,
729
00:39:43.400 --> 00:39:46.199
it's a good thing to show emotion, but But to
730
00:39:46.539 --> 00:39:50.840
have a slight buffer between what happens and how you respond,
731
00:39:50.860 --> 00:39:55.219
because how you respond is going to determine your team's
732
00:39:55.400 --> 00:39:58.599
potential actions and how they feel and how they respond.
733
00:39:58.639 --> 00:40:00.860
They're going to be looking to you. And so it's
734
00:40:00.880 --> 00:40:03.619
interesting that the great captains, the great leaders of the
735
00:40:03.659 --> 00:40:06.429
best teams, as well as some of the greatest leaders
736
00:40:06.469 --> 00:40:12.329
in the business world, share this same similar message. feature
737
00:40:12.389 --> 00:40:14.710
about them is the fact that they're able to have
738
00:40:14.750 --> 00:40:17.429
this buffer between the stimulus and their response.
739
00:40:18.710 --> 00:40:20.929
Yeah, Ryan, that's a tremendous point.
740
00:40:20.949 --> 00:40:23.539
And I think there's a lot of overlap there between
741
00:40:23.619 --> 00:40:31.000
sports and other team environments. So there's a researcher who
742
00:40:31.420 --> 00:40:33.809
sadly passed away a few years ago named Richard Hackman
743
00:40:35.150 --> 00:40:38.090
who was at Harvard. And he spent years and years
744
00:40:38.170 --> 00:40:43.320
embedding himself with high performing teams, teams that competed under
745
00:40:43.400 --> 00:40:46.639
pressure that needed, didn't, couldn't have a do over. We're
746
00:40:46.659 --> 00:40:52.159
talking about airplane cockpit crews, some sports teams, chamber orchestras,
747
00:40:53.800 --> 00:40:59.079
even emergency room staffs at hospitals. And, you know, he
748
00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:02.320
came up with some fascinating rules about what make great
749
00:41:02.360 --> 00:41:04.760
teams great, which were very similar to what I discovered.
750
00:41:04.800 --> 00:41:07.030
I mean, not just in the fact that talent and
751
00:41:07.090 --> 00:41:09.780
charisma really didn't matter in a leader, but one of
752
00:41:09.800 --> 00:41:15.079
the things he cited was, um, the emotional maturity and, uh,
753
00:41:15.500 --> 00:41:20.969
just the ability to, um, to allow reason to govern emotion.
754
00:41:21.269 --> 00:41:25.869
And this is something that, uh, these captains had just
755
00:41:26.090 --> 00:41:26.699
in spades.
756
00:41:26.840 --> 00:41:31.260
And it wasn't just the ability to not overreact.
757
00:41:31.340 --> 00:41:36.260
It was a kind of resilience that is really uncommon.
758
00:41:36.480 --> 00:41:39.130
And I looked a lot at the science and there's
759
00:41:39.710 --> 00:41:44.550
an emerging, I mean, the research, the neuroscience on the
760
00:41:44.630 --> 00:41:48.369
subject shows that there are just some people who have
761
00:41:48.710 --> 00:41:52.590
stronger wiring in their brain that allows them to override
762
00:41:52.659 --> 00:41:56.079
negative emotions and to continue to return quickly to a
763
00:41:56.119 --> 00:42:01.500
more and also there's there's research that suggests that we
764
00:42:01.519 --> 00:42:04.599
can change over time and that through training and practice
765
00:42:04.619 --> 00:42:07.579
and experience we can become more resilient and we can
766
00:42:07.619 --> 00:42:11.179
kind of rewire our brains to to react better to
767
00:42:11.280 --> 00:42:16.809
negative stimulus as you say but there are two categories
768
00:42:16.829 --> 00:42:19.530
these captains fell into one was a lot of them
769
00:42:19.550 --> 00:42:22.070
just had this i mean i clearly clearly had this
770
00:42:22.150 --> 00:42:25.659
ability to uh control their emotions my favorite example is
771
00:42:25.679 --> 00:42:28.679
a a A guy named Jerome Fernandez, who I'm sure
772
00:42:28.699 --> 00:42:32.000
you've never heard of, who was the captain of the
773
00:42:32.219 --> 00:42:36.500
French national handball team, which handball is a huge sport
774
00:42:36.539 --> 00:42:39.260
in Europe and very competitive. And they were the best
775
00:42:39.300 --> 00:42:43.760
team of all time, hands down. This is my favorite example.
776
00:42:43.820 --> 00:42:47.949
So they were playing the finals of the World Championships
777
00:42:48.010 --> 00:42:51.250
in 2009. And this is an event that 180 million
778
00:42:51.289 --> 00:42:54.929
people watch around the world. And they were not favored
779
00:42:54.949 --> 00:42:58.409
to win. So two days before the final, he got
780
00:42:58.429 --> 00:43:01.489
a call from his mother. And his parents hadn't told
781
00:43:01.550 --> 00:43:03.190
him this because they didn't want to distract him. But
782
00:43:03.210 --> 00:43:07.650
his father was dying of cancer and was in the hospital.
783
00:43:07.690 --> 00:43:11.510
He had days to live. And they needed to tell
784
00:43:11.550 --> 00:43:13.820
him now because they were worried that he would never
785
00:43:13.880 --> 00:43:17.760
see him alive again. So Fernandez had this wrenching decision.
786
00:43:17.780 --> 00:43:20.820
I mean, this is worse than most situations like this
787
00:43:20.860 --> 00:43:22.420
because he had just been named captain.
788
00:43:23.389 --> 00:43:23.969
Of the team.
789
00:43:24.059 --> 00:43:26.219
And some people on the team weren't sure about his
790
00:43:26.260 --> 00:43:28.800
leadership yet. And this was the biggest match of his
791
00:43:28.860 --> 00:43:32.360
life to date. So he faced this agonizing decision. Do
792
00:43:32.420 --> 00:43:35.119
I go home now and miss the final and let
793
00:43:35.159 --> 00:43:38.280
my team down? Or do I stay and possibly never
794
00:43:38.360 --> 00:43:40.860
see my father again? And what if we lose and
795
00:43:40.880 --> 00:43:44.610
I never see him again? So really wrenching situation. So
796
00:43:44.650 --> 00:43:46.889
what did he decide to do? He not only decided
797
00:43:46.929 --> 00:43:50.760
to stay and play and win a medal for his father,
798
00:43:50.800 --> 00:43:54.500
but he decided not to tell the team. He told
799
00:43:55.039 --> 00:43:57.480
only his coach knew. None of his teammates knew. He
800
00:43:57.500 --> 00:44:01.059
didn't want to distract them from the task at hand.
801
00:44:01.099 --> 00:44:05.440
So here he was suffering this incredible, tragic situation. So
802
00:44:05.500 --> 00:44:09.510
not only did he play brilliantly and help his team
803
00:44:09.849 --> 00:44:13.389
upset the Croatians to win the title, but He scored
804
00:44:13.409 --> 00:44:16.059
the clinching goal in the final seconds on an incredible
805
00:44:16.119 --> 00:44:19.980
play where he was knocked to the floor and had to.
806
00:44:20.039 --> 00:44:22.179
Shoot across his body. It was really amazing.
807
00:44:22.239 --> 00:44:25.139
And after that, he completely broke down on the court
808
00:44:25.260 --> 00:44:27.050
and no one, his teammates were shocked.
809
00:44:27.070 --> 00:44:27.949
They had no idea that he.
810
00:44:28.510 --> 00:44:30.690
What was going on or how he could have possibly
811
00:44:30.750 --> 00:44:34.150
endured that. So that's what we're talking about. And again,
812
00:44:35.050 --> 00:44:37.179
Let me give you one more example, though, because a
813
00:44:37.239 --> 00:44:39.920
lot of these captains had that natural ability.
814
00:44:40.440 --> 00:44:43.159
But there was one who didn't. And this was probably
815
00:44:43.219 --> 00:44:47.019
one of the most interesting stories I found. It's Maurice Richard.
816
00:44:47.079 --> 00:44:49.030
And Maurice Richard, the Rocket.
817
00:44:49.170 --> 00:44:53.690
Was famously the captain of the Montreal Canadiens in the
818
00:44:53.710 --> 00:44:54.579
late 1950s.
819
00:44:54.590 --> 00:44:56.849
He only came to win five consecutive Stanley Cups.
820
00:44:57.519 --> 00:45:01.860
And in 1955, Richard was a completely different player. He was,
821
00:45:02.260 --> 00:45:05.039
he was hot tempered. He lost his temper all the time.
822
00:45:05.099 --> 00:45:07.559
Other teams would target him because they knew he would explode.
823
00:45:08.579 --> 00:45:10.920
And he was one of the most penalized players in
824
00:45:10.940 --> 00:45:14.840
the NHL. And in 1955, in a game against the Rangers,
825
00:45:14.889 --> 00:45:19.150
he just went completely berserk after getting hit by a
826
00:45:19.210 --> 00:45:23.630
stick in the face. And he punched an official, punched
827
00:45:24.389 --> 00:45:27.739
a linesman who was trying to restrain him. And He
828
00:45:27.800 --> 00:45:30.469
was suspended for the rest of the year, including the playoffs,
829
00:45:30.530 --> 00:45:33.570
and his team didn't win the cup that year. So
830
00:45:34.269 --> 00:45:37.429
here he is, the most hot-tempered player in my group
831
00:45:37.469 --> 00:45:40.369
by far. But what he did after that was he
832
00:45:40.489 --> 00:45:44.219
vowed to become calmer and to try to control his emotions.
833
00:45:44.400 --> 00:45:47.380
And it was tough at first, but his penalty minutes
834
00:45:47.400 --> 00:45:50.139
started to fall. And as a consequence, he started passing
835
00:45:50.599 --> 00:45:53.059
to teammates more to make himself less of a target
836
00:45:53.079 --> 00:45:56.719
and getting them involved. His scoring totals fell. But immediately
837
00:45:56.760 --> 00:45:59.510
they won their first Stanley Cup. And then he became captain.
838
00:45:59.570 --> 00:46:01.090
And from that moment on, he's.
839
00:46:01.010 --> 00:46:02.190
A completely different player.
840
00:46:02.530 --> 00:46:05.190
His penalty minutes declined to the point where they were
841
00:46:05.630 --> 00:46:08.389
not even remarkable. And his scoring totals did too. They
842
00:46:08.409 --> 00:46:13.329
became this formidable team. So Richard learned. I mean, he
843
00:46:13.449 --> 00:46:17.050
learned how to change and control emotion and to put
844
00:46:17.090 --> 00:46:20.300
it into the hockey as opposed to putting it into
845
00:46:20.340 --> 00:46:23.320
his anger about the way he was being roughed up
846
00:46:23.380 --> 00:46:26.159
on the ice. And, you know, he became captain and
847
00:46:26.179 --> 00:46:29.659
they became the greatest dynasty in hockey. And so, you know,
848
00:46:30.019 --> 00:46:33.590
I think some of these traits that I've mentioned, people are,
849
00:46:34.030 --> 00:46:35.710
you know, they're kind of born with. But in this
850
00:46:35.750 --> 00:46:38.210
case and in many of these cases, it's just about behavior.
851
00:46:38.809 --> 00:46:42.610
It's about self-control and really trying to learn to be
852
00:46:42.630 --> 00:46:43.130
a better leader.
853
00:46:44.030 --> 00:46:46.340
I love the last part of that story because.
854
00:46:47.329 --> 00:46:50.670
This show Sam is all about the fact that you
855
00:46:50.730 --> 00:46:53.889
can become a leader. If you make the choice, you
856
00:46:53.929 --> 00:46:59.610
can learn, uh, constantly. You can, uh, always strive to improve,
857
00:46:59.670 --> 00:47:02.869
to get better, to find a new and innovative ways
858
00:47:02.909 --> 00:47:04.989
to solve problems. If you're willing, if you have an
859
00:47:05.050 --> 00:47:07.530
open mind, if you're searching and striving for that. And
860
00:47:07.570 --> 00:47:10.260
so that, that's a really good, good book. And I
861
00:47:10.300 --> 00:47:14.489
think to this conversation, I re I really appreciate it, Sam. And, uh, Especially,
862
00:47:14.510 --> 00:47:16.400
I know the book just came out, and so you're
863
00:47:16.420 --> 00:47:18.739
in the midst of all this crazy launch.
864
00:47:20.480 --> 00:47:22.639
Stuff going on, which is a lot of fun.
865
00:47:22.659 --> 00:47:25.360
But I really appreciate the fact that you've invested your
866
00:47:25.400 --> 00:47:28.460
time with us here on the Learning Leader Show, man.
867
00:47:29.300 --> 00:47:31.320
Right. It's a great show. Thank you. Thanks for the
868
00:47:31.480 --> 00:47:32.760
great questions. I really appreciate it.
869
00:47:32.820 --> 00:47:34.619
Thanks. Where would you send my listeners to learn more
870
00:47:34.639 --> 00:47:35.440
about you online?
871
00:47:36.619 --> 00:47:40.050
Well, I have a website. It's called Buy Sam Walkers.
872
00:47:40.780 --> 00:47:44.380
Which has a lot about the book and some takeaways
873
00:47:44.440 --> 00:47:46.900
and some of the press. I've had a ton of
874
00:47:47.460 --> 00:47:51.389
excerpts run. There's one in the Wall Street Journal from Saturday. Also,
875
00:47:51.829 --> 00:47:55.409
Fast Company has a piece up, ESPN and Sports Illustrated
876
00:47:55.449 --> 00:47:58.019
have pieces up. done for them a little bits about
877
00:47:58.059 --> 00:48:00.820
the book um so i think if you google the
878
00:48:00.880 --> 00:48:03.280
book you'll see a lot of ways to get a
879
00:48:03.320 --> 00:48:04.300
better sense of what's in it.
880
00:48:04.599 --> 00:48:06.639
Yeah i would encourage everyone to get the captain class
881
00:48:06.679 --> 00:48:09.639
the hidden force that creates the world's greatest team sam
882
00:48:09.679 --> 00:48:12.800
walker man thanks so much and i absolutely want to
883
00:48:12.840 --> 00:48:15.030
continue this dialogue as we both progress.
884
00:48:14.730 --> 00:48:17.690
Man great ryan all right thanks.
885
00:48:17.530 --> 00:48:21.510
Man okay Proud to say that this episode of The
886
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Learning Leader Show is brought to you by Rhone. R-H-O-N-E.
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902
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at roan.com great man thank you you still there sam
903
00:49:29.329 --> 00:49:33.190
That was really good. I love the stories and the
904
00:49:33.230 --> 00:49:38.070
way that you're able to really dive deeper, especially when
905
00:49:38.110 --> 00:49:40.550
I would just kind of lead out, maybe make a
906
00:49:40.610 --> 00:49:42.650
statement and not ask a question and you just take it.
907
00:49:42.710 --> 00:49:45.980
That's the type of dialogue that I really enjoy and
908
00:49:46.019 --> 00:49:47.659
that we would have if we were just out to
909
00:49:47.699 --> 00:49:48.739
lunch or something like that.
910
00:49:48.760 --> 00:49:49.940
So I really appreciate that.
911
00:49:50.480 --> 00:49:53.179
No, it was really fun and I really love these
912
00:49:53.880 --> 00:49:57.000
chances to sort of get into it because it's not
913
00:49:57.019 --> 00:50:02.139
a There's no– there's many messages and conclusions in the book.
914
00:50:02.179 --> 00:50:04.300
So sometimes I do these short interviews and I feel
915
00:50:04.320 --> 00:50:08.389
like I'm only getting– I'm only scratching the surface.
916
00:50:08.590 --> 00:50:13.780
I mean for books– really, I believe for anything podcasting.
917
00:50:13.800 --> 00:50:15.820
And that's why I love it so much because you
918
00:50:15.840 --> 00:50:18.619
can go so much deeper. Like we can, we can
919
00:50:18.880 --> 00:50:21.460
pull apart some of the seven traits and really get
920
00:50:21.480 --> 00:50:23.639
into the stories and some of the research behind it
921
00:50:24.070 --> 00:50:26.829
and not just, you know, have surface level things to say,
922
00:50:27.110 --> 00:50:29.190
Oh yeah, well, Bill Russell's great.
923
00:50:29.309 --> 00:50:29.630
You know?
924
00:50:29.690 --> 00:50:31.710
I mean like, it's so much better.
925
00:50:31.989 --> 00:50:34.929
I like going, uh, and I found to the authors
926
00:50:34.969 --> 00:50:37.889
and other leaders really enjoy the, the, the chance to
927
00:50:37.929 --> 00:50:40.010
go much deeper. And I think that's why podcasting is
928
00:50:40.090 --> 00:50:42.530
growing so much because people see the value and a
929
00:50:42.570 --> 00:50:44.489
lot of people are listening to them. So it's a,
930
00:50:44.510 --> 00:50:45.400
it makes a lot more fun.
931
00:50:46.179 --> 00:50:50.940
Yeah, no, it's my favorite medium and a favorite emerging medium.
932
00:50:51.039 --> 00:50:53.500
I really think it's, I think you're onto something.
933
00:50:53.599 --> 00:50:55.960
It's just, it's the way people, I mean, if people
934
00:50:56.000 --> 00:50:59.219
have these long stretches in their cars or they don't
935
00:50:59.280 --> 00:51:01.170
want to, look at a funny video.
936
00:51:01.190 --> 00:51:03.070
They want to kind of get into something.
937
00:51:03.230 --> 00:51:03.469
Yeah.
938
00:51:03.789 --> 00:51:05.469
Well, it can be a secondary activity. Like you said,
939
00:51:05.510 --> 00:51:08.070
driving your car, working out, all that. And that's why
940
00:51:08.110 --> 00:51:10.489
I think people like it. I've been listening, started listening
941
00:51:10.510 --> 00:51:13.239
to books on audible as well as a ton of
942
00:51:13.280 --> 00:51:15.800
podcasts too. But it's, uh, it is, it's, it's, it's
943
00:51:15.820 --> 00:51:19.159
definitely fun for me to do, man. I appreciate, uh, you,
944
00:51:19.280 --> 00:51:21.039
you doing it. Like I said, when I first saw
945
00:51:21.179 --> 00:51:23.739
that tweet of, of you giving the speech, I said,
946
00:51:23.760 --> 00:51:25.179
I gotta, I gotta talk to this guy.
947
00:51:25.679 --> 00:51:27.800
You were, you were even better than I expected. So thanks, man.
948
00:51:27.840 --> 00:51:28.619
I really appreciate it.
949
00:51:29.239 --> 00:51:31.139
All right, Ryan. Thanks. Let's keep in touch.
950
00:51:31.179 --> 00:51:32.480
Definitely. I'll let you know.
951
00:51:33.099 --> 00:51:34.969
I'll send a note to you when we're putting this up.
952
00:51:35.000 --> 00:51:36.679
I'll try to rush it since you're still on this
953
00:51:36.760 --> 00:51:37.400
launch phase.
954
00:51:38.980 --> 00:51:40.760
Yeah. I know how that goes.
955
00:51:40.929 --> 00:51:42.239
You know how it goes.
956
00:51:42.280 --> 00:51:45.469
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, man. I'll let you know. I'll shoot
957
00:51:45.489 --> 00:51:45.789
you a note.
958
00:51:45.809 --> 00:51:46.809
All right, cool.
959
00:51:46.929 --> 00:51:47.210
Thanks.
960
00:51:47.230 --> 00:51:47.489
All right.
961
00:51:47.530 --> 00:51:47.889
Thanks, Sam.
962
00:51:48.230 --> 00:51:48.869
Take it easy. Bye.