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Hey, it change makers, and welcome to the deck Show
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with tom Ac gra Let's get into it.
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Unlike the Great Nation of France, here at the Deck Show,
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and indeed Reality Bites, we do not take August off.
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Although you will, you will rarely find us more more
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sort of intercrossed by vacations and holidays. And before we
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get onto today's fantastic program, a shout out to our
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esteemed Reality Bites panelist regular Dina, who joins us from
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holiday from her vacation. Dina, what a soldier? What a trooper?
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I like it. It's commitment. And I don't know if
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this is me being a workaholic or I just love
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you guys so much. But I think I love you
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buy so much.
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Yes, it was. It was non obligatory. She was not
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required to join us today. I should stress the listeners,
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but she wanted to because the topic was so we
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are to miss yes, yes, whereas Meghan I think maybe
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would have. But Meghan is on top of a mountain
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somewhere I can't remember where, where there's no Wi Fi
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at all. She might just tell us that. Though she
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might just tell us that, but but you know where
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do you do you care to share with the beautiful
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surroundings that you join us from today.
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Yes, so I'm in Egypt, in Alexandria North Coast where
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we have fantastic tour coins, water and white sands.
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Beautiful, beautiful and what a what a not not just
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a sort of a fun back backdrop for today's show,
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but what an appropriate one because today we are talking
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we were taking a utopian perspective on the future of
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work rather than rather than reflecting as a as a team,
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and we're joined as well by Orion and Sean. Hello
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to both of you as well. Hello, we are we
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are not just reflecting upon this the constant small changes
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to workplace technology that we document I think quite rigorously
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across the deck show. And we're not just uh expressing
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our anxiety vv the anxiety common to all modern employees.
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I think about the future of our workplace, of the
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future of our professions, the future of work itself. We're
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gonna we're going to take an absolutely utopian view of
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the issue and we're going to be recklessly optimistic. To
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use the phrase that Shawn coined when he gave us
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this wonderful idea for a program, and say, in a
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perfect world in the world to come. What what might
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work look like from the best possible perspective? What happens,
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you might say, if we design the silliness out of work?
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What if AI removes the versus Sean's phrase, the coordination
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tax without pretending to be us? What if jobs leave
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more room for thinking, living, and doing the things that
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we actually deem important. Sean, so it's your topic. Help
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us then complete the following sentence In Sean's work utopia,
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nobody ever has to what again?
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Nobody ever has to use LinkedIn ever again?
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Oh, oh, phenomenal phenomena.
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Nobody has to rely on that for And there's plenty
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of good that comes out of it. It's the way
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it is today. But there's no sense of performative work.
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We're having to justify work at that scale because it
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is kind of a bit like you're acting, isn't it.
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It's like you do the thing and then you talk
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about the thing you just did, and yeah, I think
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that that would I would do away with that in
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my utopian future.
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That is such a great answer, and what a way
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to kick it off. I have to admit something, actually,
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because I've had to ban myself from successive other forms
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of social media right due to social media addiction. LinkedIn
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is like the only like social app left on my phone, right,
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and I kind of find myself going on it, like
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in a kind of casual way. But it's not my
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favorite what people world forum for much of anything? So
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what task John? But seems completely normal today. Do you
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think if work in our ideal future here might find
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utterly ridiculous? I guess besides going on LinkedIn.
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Yeah, besides LinkedIn, I think one of them, which would
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be silly, and I don't have the solution for it.
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But I think in the you know, not too distant future,
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the concept of PowerPoint in doing slides and talks a
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lot of the time in any office culture of white
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collar work, it's what we've done recently, these are the successes,
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and then what we're going to do pretty soon, and
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then you know, you go through and it does remind
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of like a storytelling time with kids, but all dressed
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up as adults. I think that will be laughed at
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and kind of marked in the future. And I don't
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know what I hope do to replace it, But it
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is a bit silly, isn't it. It's kind of a
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lot of work is talking about what was just done
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and then what we're going to do.
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And I am particularly bad Sean, as you might know
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from working with me for many years. A particularly backed
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power points would I would welcome is why do you
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think the why do you think it will be supplanted?
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Because it won't be supplanted just because it's silly. It
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has to be supplanted because there's some shift in the
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need and the perceived need for it.
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Yeah, I mean hopefully in a better future it would
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be one of the things highlighted as the waste of time,
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and time is like everything in my future, so it
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would be in my utopian version, So it would be
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again maybe not even just we all have kind of
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one primary job, but there's multiple jobs, and forty hours
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a week is absurd to some folks. If you're really
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into the thing you're into, you can work as much
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time as you want. But there's also alternatives where folks
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work a few hours a week and spend the rest
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of the time doing whatever it is they're interested in.
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So I hopefully it would be something like that, Yeah,
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where either an AI helps us identify it or we
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culturally recognize like all of these things are are you know,
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like a full pa to consider.
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And does it not concern you sean that if time
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required to work is whittled down so significantly that with
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it the remuneration for work is accordingly.
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Yeah, of course, And yeah, I love these topics as
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they're so not sans tech. It goes immediately into philosophy
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and how people actually really feel in a perfect utopian
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world imagine and I don't we'll ever get there, but
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you had some form of universe, so basic income or
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something that would provide safety net, so everybody has the
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access to healthcare, you know, shelter quality food, and that's
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really Once you get the basics covered, then it's up
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to that person or the community to if they want to,
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you know, work more and receive more. But I think
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if it's an impossibility to have people out living in
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a street and everyone has a roof over their head,
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then it kind of upends the nature of how many
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hours should must be put in to have a quote
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unquote livable wage. All of these things have been invented.
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Well, listen, I did not sign up to do a
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utopian episode. I signed off to the utopian workplace episode. Sure,
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we thinking specifically about the latter and this whole question
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of visible busyness, you might say, what would become you think,
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do you think a new sign of valuable work? Once
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the kind of performative aspect of modern professional life, it
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is retired so to speak.
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Yeah, again, I can't talk about it without being waxing philosophical.
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That's okay. Act when when.
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People kind of quiet down about what they're doing, I mean,
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you can be proud of what you do. But again,
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the performative aspect of LinkedIn, I have to show up.
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And I think when people kind of shut up and
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just stick to what they do. I also think the
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concept I was thinking about it today when you lose
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track of time, So in two hundred years, if like
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computers look back at it, they're like, what is this
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phrase that people say, I lost track of time? It's like, oh, well,
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they must have time elapsed and they literally lost track
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with That's not what it means for us today as humans.
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It means like you were.
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The subtext means you are geeking out on something.
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And truly interested in something.
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So the more times that occurs when you feel like
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you're losing track of time, it's probably because you're learning
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something new or novel, or you're gaining progress and something
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you're literally geeking out on it. So I think that
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would be like a marker for you know, things that
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would change in the future. If the more times that,
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if that happens to you a lot now, then kudos.
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That's great.
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Sean would like everyone to quiet and down a bit,
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you know.
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So listen, I like it. I like it, but there's
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one one bit, right maybe if I am, if I'm
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adding to it, it's the outcome. It's the immersive experience
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of you becoming a creator.
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Right.
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This is where we used to say I lost track
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of time because I was doing something that would come
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up with an outcome that would be productive. And I'm
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not going to overuse the productive word because it's misused
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if we're in the LinkedIn port, but we really need
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to go and redefine the storytelling. We need to define
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the outcomes and not just mark them as task task task.
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So if there is a specific project that would have
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an outcome, a value, an end goal, whichever term you
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want to use, if we start to do these things,
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we're going to enjoy what we're doing and we will
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get there. That's the in between between where we are
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right now and getting into the workplace Youtubian kind of aspect.
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So let's just redefine what our outcomes and how creative
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we would be doing that. If people are doing things
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that they really really love, it's going to be super
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simple to lose.
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Track of time. Wonderful. What about if I was to
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give you the same question shown just answer so brilliantly
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their Dina, No, no, no pressure, especially on your holiday.
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In Dina's work utopia, nobody would ever have to what again?
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What would be your blank? There?
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Spend time in administry of tasks. I would automate most
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of my administry of tasks and just have more time
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to do customer experience stuff, to do human things. A
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human wants to speak to humans most of the time.
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Not they want They want to get to whatever they
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want done. Right, If you're in an ATM machine, you
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just want things to work, get what you need. But
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if you need to troubleshoot, you want to have the
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human being who can help you, will have all the
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inside information, etc. So if it's up to me, I'll
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just automate all the administrative stuff leave the rest for
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people to be created.
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So what wouldn't. To be specific, you wouldn't what would
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you never aught to make the human experience, the human experience.
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The customer experience. Yes, in any kind of domain, that
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one I wouldn't automate.
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And if AI removes all of that administrative and coordination work,
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I guess this brings us back to the philosophical dimension
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of the topic we were just touching upon. There was
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shown what happens to the idea of the job. What
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is concretely left over? In your view?
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So we change and evolve as humans. Right, It's always
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about the adaptability. We need to change our way of working,
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so we become more focused on what matters the most,
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the experience, the outcomes, not the tasks per se. Like
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let's take the example of cutting vegetables in a kitchen.
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It's a good thing to do, but I would go
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to make that That's not fun. I don't think we
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would enjoy that much. But let's focus more on creating
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new meals, giving people new experiences and fusion of tastes,
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et cetera. Right, the same goes for work. I don't
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want to be redoing updating my Excel files every day,
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or building slides of PowerPoint but I'd rather focus on
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the storytelling, the outcome that I'm leading, and the value
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of the conversation. Right, So this is one of the
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things you waste a lot of time in at work
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to prepare for slides, put in the content, et cetera,
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et cetera. But if we just focus on the storytelling
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part and the value, we will get too much much
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better optimized ways and times, will use the time more
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efficiently and won't get to results. So I think that's
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what's going to be driving And back to Sean's line before, doctor,
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we can do different jobs, different things at the same time.
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That's what would allow us to do It's just treating
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things as a full experience, not keeping them disconnected.
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And what about this idea of you know, the traditional
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fixed role the JD or do you see it more
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as like the democratized workplace vision was kind of alluding
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to people moving between problems, projects, areas of expertise.
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So I'm in between.
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Right.
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It's good to have everything covered and given to everyone.
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That's fantastic, but you need to keep order a little bit, right,
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So keep the job descriptions just as an entry point,
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but we need to keep our skills toolbox up to speed,
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and it needs to be dynamic, right, so we can
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evolve and enhance our overall human experience. That's our end goal.
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So not the project more, not the task does become
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subject matter experts in different areas. So now if you
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tell me, now you're automating half of your task, what
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are you going to do with the rest of your time, Well,
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I'll become an SME. I'll become a subject matter expert
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in security. I'll become a subject matter insecurity and AI,
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the use of compliance, these kind of new things that
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my work is demanding. I'd rather use my time become
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an SME in them, which means I need to have
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a bigger or a wider toolbox of skills, and that
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will make us more valuable than the one size fits
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all kind of thing before. So the job description is
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one size fits all in my opinion. It just gets
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you into a conversation, but it doesn't get you to
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the outcome or to the result. That one becomes more
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clear when you start to have a conversation with the
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human As example, it's one of the things I do
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in my day to day when we're hiring people right
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and expanding teams, et cetera. It's good people. We get
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them through the job descriptions, that's fine, they fit, But
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then you start to get involved in a conversation, you
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need to look for the skills that they have, their
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communications skills, emotional intelligence, all of these kinds of things
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that are not measurable and they're not AI, right, so
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I'm not going to measure their use on AI. That's
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going to be easy. Given people can be prompted with
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prompts so they can do their jobs. But to perform
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and give the results at the end of the day
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where you're in the customer experience business, then you still
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need the basic skills that are let's call them soft skills.
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That's the simplest group. If we want to put them
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in a place, the cognitive ones that AI cannot win
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it and every they do, it's just going to be
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like a mirror and that's not what you need. You
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need the real deal, the human fingerprint.
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And how do you feel dinner? How do you feel
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your own day to day work has been impacted by
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the last two point five years of AI transformation? How
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different does your your days look like? Does your work
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feel like to what it was?
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It's some It's much more efficient to be honest, Like,
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I can use my time in smaller chunks to do
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a lot of work that I used to take some
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weeks from me or or or days to assemble data
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or consolidate what I need and excels, et cetera. Now
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I can just prompt keep a specific persona do one, two, three, four, ma'am.
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I have the output. I take that result and build
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on top of it. So now let's just think about
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it this way. Back in the days, I used to
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work with smaller lego pieces. Now I'm building sets of Lego.
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It's not just smaller pieces. I have bigger sets. I
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can build cities. I can build bigger things. So I
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can make much quicker progress just by the use of
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AI in my day today. You just need to know
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your use case for real. It's just again, AI is
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just one more knife in the kitchen.
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It's not the whole meal, Ariana. Do you do you
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relate to that is as a description of the way
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AI has impacted your own workplace experience or your own
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sense of professional engagement, or would it strike you differently.
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I don't think that's specifically my experience, but I do
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think it's interesting to sort of just hear, you know,
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what are the parts of work that people do or
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don't value and how much that varies person to person. Right,
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So Sean is saying less power points, less sort of storytelling,
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where I Stina is saying more storytelling. And yeah, so
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that's just the first thing that stood out to me
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is that, you know, the problem isn't the PowerPoint it's
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the pointlessness.
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To me, power pointless.
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I think there's a certain amount of what makes the
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AI experience really good or bad is the culture underneath it.
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You know.
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I think there's a certain amount of, yes, big system
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stuff that's really important. You know, how do things work
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so that we can create a better workplace and in
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some ways that is independent of AI, and AI can
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just fit into that and make that easier and better,
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or it can do the converse. It can really demand Okay,
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well why don't you have that report yesterday? If you
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can have a tool that does it without really considering
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about like how do we make sure that it's telling
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the right story and not a pointless story? Things like that.
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So I like the idea of what is the environment
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in which we're using AI and how does it really
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facilitate a positive relationship to work and a positive relationship
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to information, and then also like what is the most
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human way of communicating that information. So unfortunately, a lot
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of my most time consuming ADMIN tasks involved talking to people,
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and I actually think it's really important that I don't
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use AI for that because it's relational. Right, So much
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of my work is relational, And first of all, it's
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kind of rude if I'm sending somebody an AI message,
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and I think that should absolutely continue to be our culture.
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On second of all, it removes the possibility of connection,
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and that's part of also what makes my job joyful, Right,
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I have these great conversations with people all over the world,
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and we also you know, I get updates on somebody's
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dog and their family and then they help me out
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with a project and it takes a few seconds. Right,
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It's this is not overhead. This is an important part
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of work, is that we are humans working with humans.
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So I think that's that's an important compon on it
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for me, And that's one of the things that like
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I can't utamate.
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Did you hear that, Sean? It's one of the important
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parts of work into human communication. Yeah, it matters, are
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you a yeah? I didn't say the opposite. I don't think.
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Maybe not at all. And that's all song, you know, like, yeah,
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how do we get rid of the pointless power points?
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Right?
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Like, how do we spend more time on the things
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that are valuable?
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Agreed? Agreed? Well, imagine Oreana. It is twenty forty and
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you are visiting what Sean calls the museum of pointless work.
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What present day workplace, task, ritual, or object is displayed
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or perhaps should be displayed behind the class.
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Okay, I love this question. I'm going to take an
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image tour picture this. You're a museum. There's a giant diorama. Okay,
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we can't class those little tiny miniatures. I love miniature.
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And you see rooms full of people and they're abject chaos.
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Remember what they say, as I said again, there's a
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room full.
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Of people and it's abject.
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Chaos, object chaos.
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Right.
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Yes, the meeting has run long. It's an hour and
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a half long meeting at Trecious. There's no agenda, and
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afterwards nobody knows why or what they're doing. Okay, this
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is the diorama. It is the worst possible meeting. It
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is the confluence of all the things that happen when
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people uh are performing the work without actually accomplishing things,
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and instead we have AI that is built into our
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basic little work processes. So every single meeting we have
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has an agenda. Every single meeting is automatically shortened by
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five minutes at the end or maybe at the big
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because people are so bad at ending things on time.
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And it's fine because we have these tools that make
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things run smoothly, so you don't worry about you know,
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always everyone going to be able to connect easily. Of
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course they will, because even if it doesn't, you know,
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if they have a problem with teams, they're can have
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this handy dandy spark assistant that's going to fix it
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for them proactively and let them know, hey, I fix
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that issue. You don't have to worry. Your meeting's going
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to start on time. You're going to be able to
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hear everybody, and at the end you're going to have
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a nice, clear little list of takeaways with what everyone's
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going to be working on. You won't have to rely
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on memory for admin tasks, and you're just going to
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have wayless chaos and time spent on these fiddly little
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things that we try to establish with culture now, but
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the AI helps reinforce positive cultural artifacts and practices.
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So full museum tour, thank you. Just adding to what
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you brought up, Arina about workplace communication, already mentioned the
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importance of keeping say much communication human, and I completely
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agree with you on that front. By the way, are
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there things that are their forms of workplace communication? It
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should be delegated to a I have you anything to
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add to that theme of organic and inorganic workplace communication
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more generally?
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Yeah, So that's that was a little bit what I
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was thinking with. You know, how do we create this
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environment where good, good habits are reinforced by AI and
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supported by AI and positive cultural things. Right. So, I
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know someone who I'm very fond of, but it's very
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very brusque, who has started using AI to sort of
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help them check their tone. Oh, and I have to
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say they're doing a much better job of not being
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as much of a jerk.
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Inadvertently.
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Right, this is somebody who just has a bit of
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a tendency to steam more people with their opinions, and
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you know, relatable it happens. I also am a person
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who gets very excited about ideas and so what they've
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been doing is sort of using this as a check. Now.
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I think this is sometimes a tricky road, right, but
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I really appreciate that this person has identified their own
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weakness and it's like I can tackle this using AI
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and it's a very human thing to do. But they've
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managed to use AI to do this pretty effectively. And
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obviously it's not one hundred percent, and I think some
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of it is also you know, they're building their own skills,
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and by just taking the time to reflect and like
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change their messaging, they may not realize how much they're
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missing that skill. But I think it's fantastic and I
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think that's a great example of like it isn't always
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about replacing things, it's also about how do we use
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it to scaffold skills. And then, like I said, I
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hate it when meetings don't have agendas or don't have takeaways,
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and I feel like that's the kind of thing where
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AI is really great, is to make sure that you're
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not missing that, and I think it's one of those
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things that against scaffolds people into much better habits.
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My mother, Oriana, was working with a workman on a
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project that was important to her and he wasn't. He
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wasn't a crook, right, but he was. He could be
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extremely aggressive and emotionally kind of intense, and she became
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really really intimidated. I took over the communications with this
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guy to just try and cool things down and to
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try and have like a protect layer. My mum was
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getting very upset about it all, and it was going.
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It was it went really really well, but it was
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like a protracted, like six eight months of communicating with him,
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and at a certain point I stopped putting all of
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I started putting all of my emails to him into
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a LLM, and it would almost always, almost always tone
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down my own emotional tone right to keep things cool,
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to keep things steady, to make sure I didn't get frustrated,
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I didn't cross the line. I didn't, I didn't provoke him.
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And it was it was amusing to witness this emotional
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tone in my own communications being toned down, toned down,
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toned down. But it was ultimately really really effective. I
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ultimately had to hand it to AI as having a
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better measure of how to engage in a sustainable, calm
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way with this gentleman than I. Did you know? And
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what about you when when Ai tries to write in
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your voice, Sorry, Anna, what does it change? What does
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it miss? Not necessarily in such a kind of fraught context,
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but more.
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Generally, also, this is very sweet that you were able
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to help her with that, And I think, yeah, that's
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the idea, right. You have filters on filters, and sometimes
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that's a good thing and sometimes that's a bad thing.
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And I think what I struggle with as somebody who
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the main core of my job is not writing right.
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When I have to write something, I often go to
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somebody like Sean and go, hey, you help me out
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with this. But I do quite like writing, and when
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I write, I do have a distinctive voice. I tend
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to praise things in a way that is very particular
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to me. I have creative metaphors. I love creative metaphors.
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I love visuals things like that, And I see I'm
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also very good at summarizing things, very very succinctively. It's
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a huge part of what I do is restating things
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in brief and those are two things that I find
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anytime I ask chat to be teacher revise my writing
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already doing is I don't let it reread anything I
484
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ask it to give me a line by line what
485
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IN might offer as a suggestion, and then I change
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what it's offering me. I just take the principle, right
487
00:28:12.839 --> 00:28:15.319
like did I need to change graandmar did I need
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to make something clear? But I don't use its suggestions
489
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because they're all, like you said, flat. It feels like,
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you know, when you see somebody on a photo that
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has been filtered so hard that you can barely see
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their face anymore. All their features meant melt away. And
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that's the thing that I don't like, is that it
494
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strips away all of that personality and all of those details.
495
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And also then it just does a very poor job
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of saying things succinctly, and that drives me crazy. I'm
497
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gonna I'm gonna say that I think that's one thing
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that a lot of these tools need, is they need
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a succinct mode.
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MM can be very vibose, can't it? Corect What we've
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00:28:54.640 --> 00:28:57.319
just got in. We've just veered into complaining about a
502
00:28:57.400 --> 00:28:59.480
lens together, haven't we a little bit? But you know,
503
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I have to favor the utopian angle doesn't come to
504
00:29:04.079 --> 00:29:07.640
me very easily, right I. I I sometimes think that
505
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we we underestimate the need for like mundaneity for repetitive
506
00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:17.799
repetition in life as a kind of ballast. You know,
507
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it's something that that that that allows us, you know,
508
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it allows us to like take time to relax without
509
00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:29.799
to relax the creative part of our brains, you know,
510
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and the and the active part of our brains without
511
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necessarily over overly relaxing. Shall we say, you know, just
512
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sort of watching a.
513
00:29:38.319 --> 00:29:42.759
YouTube value of boredom argument, right, Like we need to think,
514
00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:44.799
we need space to be creative. Like I'm a huge
515
00:29:44.799 --> 00:29:48.079
fan of I'll work on something and I'll go take
516
00:29:48.119 --> 00:29:52.039
a walk before I come bab to it, because otherwise
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00:29:52.039 --> 00:29:53.240
they can't put a fresh eye on it.
518
00:29:56.359 --> 00:29:58.480
Sean, let's give the last word to you. Brought us
519
00:29:58.480 --> 00:30:02.400
this wonderful topic. Take us, take us all.
520
00:30:02.920 --> 00:30:05.920
I's so hard for me to be optimistic in utopia,
521
00:30:06.119 --> 00:30:06.799
you know what I think.
522
00:30:06.880 --> 00:30:07.480
I think.
523
00:30:08.759 --> 00:30:10.720
All of this, We're gonna be like why in the
524
00:30:10.759 --> 00:30:13.000
future and be like, why weren't we just all working
525
00:30:13.160 --> 00:30:16.480
on something directly related to climate change? But there you go,
526
00:30:18.799 --> 00:30:21.759
Well it's just what we're we thinking.
527
00:30:21.960 --> 00:30:26.680
How still adding to it? Adding to it rather than yes, okay,
528
00:30:26.759 --> 00:30:29.839
well that's what that does. That does not exactly bring
529
00:30:29.960 --> 00:30:33.880
us to our conclusion on a utopian note. But that's okay.
530
00:30:34.200 --> 00:30:37.759
And look, maybe maybe the at work utopia is already
531
00:30:37.839 --> 00:30:40.440
here with us now, believe it or not, because Dina,
532
00:30:40.519 --> 00:30:44.000
of course is choosing, choosing to join us with this
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00:30:44.119 --> 00:30:49.400
conversation from our holiday so special special thanks to your Dina,
534
00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:54.079
and and and and and thanks Rihanna, Thanks Sean, Thanks
535
00:30:54.119 --> 00:30:56.279
again Dina for joining us. It was a wonderful chat.
536
00:30:56.759 --> 00:31:00.000
Goodbye, I love it.
537
00:31:00.079 --> 00:31:00.839
Thanks everybody.
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00:31:02.160 --> 00:31:04.440
That's it for this week's Deck Show. We'll be back
539
00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:07.079
next week. And if you don't already, be sure to
540
00:31:07.119 --> 00:31:09.759
follow the show so you don't miss an episode until
541
00:31:09.799 --> 00:31:10.319
next time.
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Hey, it change makers, and welcome to the deck Show
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with tom Ac gra Let's get into it.
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Unlike the Great Nation of France, here at the Deck Show,
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and indeed Reality Bites, we do not take August off.
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Although you will, you will rarely find us more more
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sort of intercrossed by vacations and holidays. And before we
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get onto today's fantastic program, a shout out to our
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esteemed Reality Bites panelist regular Dina, who joins us from
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holiday from her vacation. Dina, what a soldier? What a trooper?
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I like it. It's commitment. And I don't know if
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this is me being a workaholic or I just love
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you guys so much. But I think I love you
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buy so much.
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Yes, it was. It was non obligatory. She was not
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required to join us today. I should stress the listeners,
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but she wanted to because the topic was so we
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are to miss yes, yes, whereas Meghan I think maybe
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would have. But Meghan is on top of a mountain
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somewhere I can't remember where, where there's no Wi Fi
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at all. She might just tell us that. Though she
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might just tell us that, but but you know where
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do you do you care to share with the beautiful
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surroundings that you join us from today.
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Yes, so I'm in Egypt, in Alexandria North Coast where
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we have fantastic tour coins, water and white sands.
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Beautiful, beautiful and what a what a not not just
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a sort of a fun back backdrop for today's show,
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but what an appropriate one because today we are talking
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we were taking a utopian perspective on the future of
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work rather than rather than reflecting as a as a team,
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and we're joined as well by Orion and Sean. Hello
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to both of you as well. Hello, we are we
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are not just reflecting upon this the constant small changes
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to workplace technology that we document I think quite rigorously
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across the deck show. And we're not just uh expressing
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our anxiety vv the anxiety common to all modern employees.
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I think about the future of our workplace, of the
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future of our professions, the future of work itself. We're
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gonna we're going to take an absolutely utopian view of
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the issue and we're going to be recklessly optimistic. To
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use the phrase that Shawn coined when he gave us
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this wonderful idea for a program, and say, in a
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perfect world in the world to come. What what might
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work look like from the best possible perspective? What happens,
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you might say, if we design the silliness out of work?
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What if AI removes the versus Sean's phrase, the coordination
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tax without pretending to be us? What if jobs leave
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more room for thinking, living, and doing the things that
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we actually deem important. Sean, so it's your topic. Help
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us then complete the following sentence In Sean's work utopia,
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nobody ever has to what again?
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Nobody ever has to use LinkedIn ever again?
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Oh, oh, phenomenal phenomena.
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Nobody has to rely on that for And there's plenty
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of good that comes out of it. It's the way
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it is today. But there's no sense of performative work.
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We're having to justify work at that scale because it
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is kind of a bit like you're acting, isn't it.
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It's like you do the thing and then you talk
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about the thing you just did, and yeah, I think
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that that would I would do away with that in
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my utopian future.
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That is such a great answer, and what a way
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to kick it off. I have to admit something, actually,
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because I've had to ban myself from successive other forms
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of social media right due to social media addiction. LinkedIn
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is like the only like social app left on my phone, right,
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and I kind of find myself going on it, like
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in a kind of casual way. But it's not my
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favorite what people world forum for much of anything? So
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what task John? But seems completely normal today. Do you
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think if work in our ideal future here might find
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utterly ridiculous? I guess besides going on LinkedIn.
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Yeah, besides LinkedIn, I think one of them, which would
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be silly, and I don't have the solution for it.
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But I think in the you know, not too distant future,
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the concept of PowerPoint in doing slides and talks a
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lot of the time in any office culture of white
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collar work, it's what we've done recently, these are the successes,
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and then what we're going to do pretty soon, and
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then you know, you go through and it does remind
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of like a storytelling time with kids, but all dressed
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up as adults. I think that will be laughed at
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and kind of marked in the future. And I don't
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know what I hope do to replace it, But it
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is a bit silly, isn't it. It's kind of a
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lot of work is talking about what was just done
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and then what we're going to do.
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And I am particularly bad Sean, as you might know
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from working with me for many years. A particularly backed
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power points would I would welcome is why do you
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think the why do you think it will be supplanted?
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Because it won't be supplanted just because it's silly. It
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has to be supplanted because there's some shift in the
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need and the perceived need for it.
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Yeah, I mean hopefully in a better future it would
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be one of the things highlighted as the waste of time,
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and time is like everything in my future, so it
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would be in my utopian version, So it would be
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again maybe not even just we all have kind of
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one primary job, but there's multiple jobs, and forty hours
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a week is absurd to some folks. If you're really
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into the thing you're into, you can work as much
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time as you want. But there's also alternatives where folks
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work a few hours a week and spend the rest
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of the time doing whatever it is they're interested in.
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So I hopefully it would be something like that, Yeah,
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where either an AI helps us identify it or we
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culturally recognize like all of these things are are you know,
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like a full pa to consider.
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And does it not concern you sean that if time
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required to work is whittled down so significantly that with
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it the remuneration for work is accordingly.
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Yeah, of course, And yeah, I love these topics as
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they're so not sans tech. It goes immediately into philosophy
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and how people actually really feel in a perfect utopian
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world imagine and I don't we'll ever get there, but
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you had some form of universe, so basic income or
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something that would provide safety net, so everybody has the
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access to healthcare, you know, shelter quality food, and that's
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really Once you get the basics covered, then it's up
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to that person or the community to if they want to,
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you know, work more and receive more. But I think
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if it's an impossibility to have people out living in
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a street and everyone has a roof over their head,
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then it kind of upends the nature of how many
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hours should must be put in to have a quote
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unquote livable wage. All of these things have been invented.
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Well, listen, I did not sign up to do a
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utopian episode. I signed off to the utopian workplace episode. Sure,
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we thinking specifically about the latter and this whole question
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of visible busyness, you might say, what would become you think,
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do you think a new sign of valuable work? Once
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the kind of performative aspect of modern professional life, it
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is retired so to speak.
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Yeah, again, I can't talk about it without being waxing philosophical.
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That's okay. Act when when.
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People kind of quiet down about what they're doing, I mean,
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you can be proud of what you do. But again,
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the performative aspect of LinkedIn, I have to show up.
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And I think when people kind of shut up and
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just stick to what they do. I also think the
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concept I was thinking about it today when you lose
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track of time, So in two hundred years, if like
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computers look back at it, they're like, what is this
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phrase that people say, I lost track of time? It's like, oh, well,
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they must have time elapsed and they literally lost track
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with That's not what it means for us today as humans.
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It means like you were.
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The subtext means you are geeking out on something.
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And truly interested in something.
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So the more times that occurs when you feel like
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you're losing track of time, it's probably because you're learning
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something new or novel, or you're gaining progress and something
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you're literally geeking out on it. So I think that
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would be like a marker for you know, things that
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would change in the future. If the more times that,
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if that happens to you a lot now, then kudos.
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That's great.
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Sean would like everyone to quiet and down a bit,
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you know.
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So listen, I like it. I like it, but there's
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one one bit, right maybe if I am, if I'm
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adding to it, it's the outcome. It's the immersive experience
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of you becoming a creator.
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Right.
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This is where we used to say I lost track
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of time because I was doing something that would come
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up with an outcome that would be productive. And I'm
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not going to overuse the productive word because it's misused
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if we're in the LinkedIn port, but we really need
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to go and redefine the storytelling. We need to define
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the outcomes and not just mark them as task task task.
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So if there is a specific project that would have
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an outcome, a value, an end goal, whichever term you
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want to use, if we start to do these things,
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we're going to enjoy what we're doing and we will
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get there. That's the in between between where we are
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right now and getting into the workplace Youtubian kind of aspect.
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So let's just redefine what our outcomes and how creative
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we would be doing that. If people are doing things
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that they really really love, it's going to be super
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simple to lose.
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Track of time. Wonderful. What about if I was to
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give you the same question shown just answer so brilliantly
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their Dina, No, no, no pressure, especially on your holiday.
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In Dina's work utopia, nobody would ever have to what again?
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What would be your blank? There?
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Spend time in administry of tasks. I would automate most
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of my administry of tasks and just have more time
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to do customer experience stuff, to do human things. A
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human wants to speak to humans most of the time.
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Not they want They want to get to whatever they
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want done. Right, If you're in an ATM machine, you
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just want things to work, get what you need. But
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if you need to troubleshoot, you want to have the
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human being who can help you, will have all the
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inside information, etc. So if it's up to me, I'll
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just automate all the administrative stuff leave the rest for
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people to be created.
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So what wouldn't. To be specific, you wouldn't what would
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you never aught to make the human experience, the human experience.
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The customer experience. Yes, in any kind of domain, that
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one I wouldn't automate.
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And if AI removes all of that administrative and coordination work,
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I guess this brings us back to the philosophical dimension
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of the topic we were just touching upon. There was
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shown what happens to the idea of the job. What
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is concretely left over? In your view?
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So we change and evolve as humans. Right, It's always
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about the adaptability. We need to change our way of working,
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so we become more focused on what matters the most,
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the experience, the outcomes, not the tasks per se. Like
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let's take the example of cutting vegetables in a kitchen.
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It's a good thing to do, but I would go
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to make that That's not fun. I don't think we
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would enjoy that much. But let's focus more on creating
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new meals, giving people new experiences and fusion of tastes,
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et cetera. Right, the same goes for work. I don't
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want to be redoing updating my Excel files every day,
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or building slides of PowerPoint but I'd rather focus on
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the storytelling, the outcome that I'm leading, and the value
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of the conversation. Right, So this is one of the
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things you waste a lot of time in at work
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to prepare for slides, put in the content, et cetera,
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et cetera. But if we just focus on the storytelling
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part and the value, we will get too much much
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better optimized ways and times, will use the time more
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efficiently and won't get to results. So I think that's
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what's going to be driving And back to Sean's line before, doctor,
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we can do different jobs, different things at the same time.
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That's what would allow us to do It's just treating
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things as a full experience, not keeping them disconnected.
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And what about this idea of you know, the traditional
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fixed role the JD or do you see it more
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as like the democratized workplace vision was kind of alluding
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to people moving between problems, projects, areas of expertise.
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So I'm in between.
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Right.
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It's good to have everything covered and given to everyone.
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That's fantastic, but you need to keep order a little bit, right,
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So keep the job descriptions just as an entry point,
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but we need to keep our skills toolbox up to speed,
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and it needs to be dynamic, right, so we can
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evolve and enhance our overall human experience. That's our end goal.
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So not the project more, not the task does become
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subject matter experts in different areas. So now if you
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tell me, now you're automating half of your task, what
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are you going to do with the rest of your time, Well,
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I'll become an SME. I'll become a subject matter expert
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in security. I'll become a subject matter insecurity and AI,
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the use of compliance, these kind of new things that
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my work is demanding. I'd rather use my time become
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an SME in them, which means I need to have
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a bigger or a wider toolbox of skills, and that
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will make us more valuable than the one size fits
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all kind of thing before. So the job description is
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one size fits all in my opinion. It just gets
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you into a conversation, but it doesn't get you to
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the outcome or to the result. That one becomes more
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clear when you start to have a conversation with the
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human As example, it's one of the things I do
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in my day to day when we're hiring people right
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and expanding teams, et cetera. It's good people. We get
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them through the job descriptions, that's fine, they fit, But
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then you start to get involved in a conversation, you
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need to look for the skills that they have, their
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communications skills, emotional intelligence, all of these kinds of things
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that are not measurable and they're not AI, right, so
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I'm not going to measure their use on AI. That's
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going to be easy. Given people can be prompted with
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prompts so they can do their jobs. But to perform
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and give the results at the end of the day
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where you're in the customer experience business, then you still
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need the basic skills that are let's call them soft skills.
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That's the simplest group. If we want to put them
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in a place, the cognitive ones that AI cannot win
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it and every they do, it's just going to be
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like a mirror and that's not what you need. You
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need the real deal, the human fingerprint.
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And how do you feel dinner? How do you feel
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your own day to day work has been impacted by
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the last two point five years of AI transformation? How
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different does your your days look like? Does your work
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feel like to what it was?
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It's some It's much more efficient to be honest, Like,
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I can use my time in smaller chunks to do
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a lot of work that I used to take some
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weeks from me or or or days to assemble data
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or consolidate what I need and excels, et cetera. Now
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I can just prompt keep a specific persona do one, two, three, four, ma'am.
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I have the output. I take that result and build
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on top of it. So now let's just think about
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it this way. Back in the days, I used to
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work with smaller lego pieces. Now I'm building sets of Lego.
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It's not just smaller pieces. I have bigger sets. I
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can build cities. I can build bigger things. So I
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can make much quicker progress just by the use of
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AI in my day today. You just need to know
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your use case for real. It's just again, AI is
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just one more knife in the kitchen.
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It's not the whole meal, Ariana. Do you do you
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relate to that is as a description of the way
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AI has impacted your own workplace experience or your own
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sense of professional engagement, or would it strike you differently.
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I don't think that's specifically my experience, but I do
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think it's interesting to sort of just hear, you know,
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what are the parts of work that people do or
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don't value and how much that varies person to person. Right,
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So Sean is saying less power points, less sort of storytelling,
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where I Stina is saying more storytelling. And yeah, so
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that's just the first thing that stood out to me
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is that, you know, the problem isn't the PowerPoint it's
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the pointlessness.
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To me, power pointless.
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I think there's a certain amount of what makes the
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AI experience really good or bad is the culture underneath it.
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You know.
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I think there's a certain amount of, yes, big system
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stuff that's really important. You know, how do things work
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so that we can create a better workplace and in
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some ways that is independent of AI, and AI can
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just fit into that and make that easier and better,
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or it can do the converse. It can really demand Okay,
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well why don't you have that report yesterday? If you
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can have a tool that does it without really considering
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about like how do we make sure that it's telling
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the right story and not a pointless story? Things like that.
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So I like the idea of what is the environment
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in which we're using AI and how does it really
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facilitate a positive relationship to work and a positive relationship
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to information, and then also like what is the most
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human way of communicating that information. So unfortunately, a lot
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of my most time consuming ADMIN tasks involved talking to people,
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and I actually think it's really important that I don't
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use AI for that because it's relational. Right, So much
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of my work is relational, And first of all, it's
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kind of rude if I'm sending somebody an AI message,
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and I think that should absolutely continue to be our culture.
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On second of all, it removes the possibility of connection,
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and that's part of also what makes my job joyful, Right,
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I have these great conversations with people all over the world,
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and we also you know, I get updates on somebody's
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dog and their family and then they help me out
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with a project and it takes a few seconds. Right,
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It's this is not overhead. This is an important part
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of work, is that we are humans working with humans.
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So I think that's that's an important compon on it
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for me, And that's one of the things that like
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I can't utamate.
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Did you hear that, Sean? It's one of the important
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parts of work into human communication. Yeah, it matters, are
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you a yeah? I didn't say the opposite. I don't think.
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Maybe not at all. And that's all song, you know, like, yeah,
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how do we get rid of the pointless power points?
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Right?
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Like, how do we spend more time on the things
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that are valuable?
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Agreed? Agreed? Well, imagine Oreana. It is twenty forty and
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you are visiting what Sean calls the museum of pointless work.
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What present day workplace, task, ritual, or object is displayed
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or perhaps should be displayed behind the class.
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Okay, I love this question. I'm going to take an
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image tour picture this. You're a museum. There's a giant diorama. Okay,
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we can't class those little tiny miniatures. I love miniature.
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And you see rooms full of people and they're abject chaos.
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Remember what they say, as I said again, there's a
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room full.
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Of people and it's abject.
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Chaos, object chaos.
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Right.
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Yes, the meeting has run long. It's an hour and
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a half long meeting at Trecious. There's no agenda, and
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afterwards nobody knows why or what they're doing. Okay, this
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is the diorama. It is the worst possible meeting. It
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is the confluence of all the things that happen when
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people uh are performing the work without actually accomplishing things,
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and instead we have AI that is built into our
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basic little work processes. So every single meeting we have
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has an agenda. Every single meeting is automatically shortened by
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five minutes at the end or maybe at the big
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because people are so bad at ending things on time.
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And it's fine because we have these tools that make
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things run smoothly, so you don't worry about you know,
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always everyone going to be able to connect easily. Of
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course they will, because even if it doesn't, you know,
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if they have a problem with teams, they're can have
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this handy dandy spark assistant that's going to fix it
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for them proactively and let them know, hey, I fix
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that issue. You don't have to worry. Your meeting's going
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to start on time. You're going to be able to
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hear everybody, and at the end you're going to have
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a nice, clear little list of takeaways with what everyone's
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going to be working on. You won't have to rely
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on memory for admin tasks, and you're just going to
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have wayless chaos and time spent on these fiddly little
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things that we try to establish with culture now, but
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the AI helps reinforce positive cultural artifacts and practices.
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So full museum tour, thank you. Just adding to what
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you brought up, Arina about workplace communication, already mentioned the
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importance of keeping say much communication human, and I completely
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agree with you on that front. By the way, are
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there things that are their forms of workplace communication? It
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should be delegated to a I have you anything to
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add to that theme of organic and inorganic workplace communication
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more generally?
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Yeah, So that's that was a little bit what I
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was thinking with. You know, how do we create this
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environment where good, good habits are reinforced by AI and
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supported by AI and positive cultural things. Right. So, I
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know someone who I'm very fond of, but it's very
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very brusque, who has started using AI to sort of
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help them check their tone. Oh, and I have to
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say they're doing a much better job of not being
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as much of a jerk.
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Inadvertently.
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Right, this is somebody who just has a bit of
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a tendency to steam more people with their opinions, and
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you know, relatable it happens. I also am a person
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who gets very excited about ideas and so what they've
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been doing is sort of using this as a check. Now.
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I think this is sometimes a tricky road, right, but
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I really appreciate that this person has identified their own
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weakness and it's like I can tackle this using AI
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and it's a very human thing to do. But they've
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managed to use AI to do this pretty effectively. And
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obviously it's not one hundred percent, and I think some
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of it is also you know, they're building their own skills,
429
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and by just taking the time to reflect and like
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change their messaging, they may not realize how much they're
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missing that skill. But I think it's fantastic and I
432
00:25:04.319 --> 00:25:10.039
think that's a great example of like it isn't always
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about replacing things, it's also about how do we use
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it to scaffold skills. And then, like I said, I
435
00:25:15.759 --> 00:25:19.519
hate it when meetings don't have agendas or don't have takeaways,
436
00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:21.599
and I feel like that's the kind of thing where
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AI is really great, is to make sure that you're
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not missing that, and I think it's one of those
439
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things that against scaffolds people into much better habits.
440
00:25:33.160 --> 00:25:37.720
My mother, Oriana, was working with a workman on a
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project that was important to her and he wasn't. He
442
00:25:42.880 --> 00:25:46.519
wasn't a crook, right, but he was. He could be
443
00:25:46.640 --> 00:25:52.279
extremely aggressive and emotionally kind of intense, and she became
444
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really really intimidated. I took over the communications with this
445
00:25:56.359 --> 00:25:58.839
guy to just try and cool things down and to
446
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try and have like a protect layer. My mum was
447
00:26:01.319 --> 00:26:04.240
getting very upset about it all, and it was going.
448
00:26:04.400 --> 00:26:06.119
It was it went really really well, but it was
449
00:26:06.160 --> 00:26:09.920
like a protracted, like six eight months of communicating with him,
450
00:26:10.279 --> 00:26:12.799
and at a certain point I stopped putting all of
451
00:26:12.920 --> 00:26:15.880
I started putting all of my emails to him into
452
00:26:16.319 --> 00:26:21.279
a LLM, and it would almost always, almost always tone
453
00:26:21.319 --> 00:26:26.400
down my own emotional tone right to keep things cool,
454
00:26:26.519 --> 00:26:29.720
to keep things steady, to make sure I didn't get frustrated,
455
00:26:29.759 --> 00:26:32.960
I didn't cross the line. I didn't, I didn't provoke him.
456
00:26:33.359 --> 00:26:36.559
And it was it was amusing to witness this emotional
457
00:26:36.599 --> 00:26:39.440
tone in my own communications being toned down, toned down,
458
00:26:39.519 --> 00:26:43.400
toned down. But it was ultimately really really effective. I
459
00:26:43.480 --> 00:26:45.960
ultimately had to hand it to AI as having a
460
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better measure of how to engage in a sustainable, calm
461
00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:52.960
way with this gentleman than I. Did you know? And
462
00:26:54.960 --> 00:26:57.400
what about you when when Ai tries to write in
463
00:26:57.440 --> 00:27:00.359
your voice, Sorry, Anna, what does it change? What does
464
00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:03.480
it miss? Not necessarily in such a kind of fraught context,
465
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but more.
466
00:27:04.119 --> 00:27:07.759
Generally, also, this is very sweet that you were able
467
00:27:07.799 --> 00:27:09.880
to help her with that, And I think, yeah, that's
468
00:27:10.359 --> 00:27:13.480
the idea, right. You have filters on filters, and sometimes
469
00:27:13.519 --> 00:27:15.319
that's a good thing and sometimes that's a bad thing.
470
00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:19.480
And I think what I struggle with as somebody who
471
00:27:19.640 --> 00:27:21.680
the main core of my job is not writing right.
472
00:27:21.680 --> 00:27:23.759
When I have to write something, I often go to
473
00:27:23.799 --> 00:27:25.920
somebody like Sean and go, hey, you help me out
474
00:27:25.960 --> 00:27:28.720
with this. But I do quite like writing, and when
475
00:27:28.759 --> 00:27:32.200
I write, I do have a distinctive voice. I tend
476
00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:37.160
to praise things in a way that is very particular
477
00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:43.440
to me. I have creative metaphors. I love creative metaphors.
478
00:27:43.440 --> 00:27:47.680
I love visuals things like that, And I see I'm
479
00:27:47.720 --> 00:27:50.599
also very good at summarizing things, very very succinctively. It's
480
00:27:50.599 --> 00:27:52.680
a huge part of what I do is restating things
481
00:27:52.720 --> 00:27:56.519
in brief and those are two things that I find
482
00:27:57.000 --> 00:27:59.480
anytime I ask chat to be teacher revise my writing
483
00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:03.680
already doing is I don't let it reread anything I
484
00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:06.200
ask it to give me a line by line what
485
00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:10.200
IN might offer as a suggestion, and then I change
486
00:28:10.240 --> 00:28:12.799
what it's offering me. I just take the principle, right
487
00:28:12.839 --> 00:28:15.319
like did I need to change graandmar did I need
488
00:28:15.359 --> 00:28:19.039
to make something clear? But I don't use its suggestions
489
00:28:19.079 --> 00:28:21.559
because they're all, like you said, flat. It feels like,
490
00:28:22.319 --> 00:28:25.400
you know, when you see somebody on a photo that
491
00:28:25.440 --> 00:28:27.839
has been filtered so hard that you can barely see
492
00:28:27.880 --> 00:28:31.759
their face anymore. All their features meant melt away. And
493
00:28:31.799 --> 00:28:35.480
that's the thing that I don't like, is that it
494
00:28:35.519 --> 00:28:39.400
strips away all of that personality and all of those details.
495
00:28:39.559 --> 00:28:41.440
And also then it just does a very poor job
496
00:28:41.480 --> 00:28:44.440
of saying things succinctly, and that drives me crazy. I'm
497
00:28:44.440 --> 00:28:46.880
gonna I'm gonna say that I think that's one thing
498
00:28:46.880 --> 00:28:48.599
that a lot of these tools need, is they need
499
00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:51.119
a succinct mode.
500
00:28:51.319 --> 00:28:54.559
MM can be very vibose, can't it? Corect What we've
501
00:28:54.640 --> 00:28:57.319
just got in. We've just veered into complaining about a
502
00:28:57.400 --> 00:28:59.480
lens together, haven't we a little bit? But you know,
503
00:28:59.519 --> 00:29:04.039
I have to favor the utopian angle doesn't come to
504
00:29:04.079 --> 00:29:07.640
me very easily, right I. I I sometimes think that
505
00:29:08.920 --> 00:29:13.920
we we underestimate the need for like mundaneity for repetitive
506
00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:17.799
repetition in life as a kind of ballast. You know,
507
00:29:17.880 --> 00:29:22.119
it's something that that that that allows us, you know,
508
00:29:22.119 --> 00:29:25.599
it allows us to like take time to relax without
509
00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:29.799
to relax the creative part of our brains, you know,
510
00:29:29.880 --> 00:29:32.480
and the and the active part of our brains without
511
00:29:32.559 --> 00:29:37.400
necessarily over overly relaxing. Shall we say, you know, just
512
00:29:37.440 --> 00:29:38.279
sort of watching a.
513
00:29:38.319 --> 00:29:42.759
YouTube value of boredom argument, right, Like we need to think,
514
00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:44.799
we need space to be creative. Like I'm a huge
515
00:29:44.799 --> 00:29:48.079
fan of I'll work on something and I'll go take
516
00:29:48.119 --> 00:29:52.039
a walk before I come bab to it, because otherwise
517
00:29:52.039 --> 00:29:53.240
they can't put a fresh eye on it.
518
00:29:56.359 --> 00:29:58.480
Sean, let's give the last word to you. Brought us
519
00:29:58.480 --> 00:30:02.400
this wonderful topic. Take us, take us all.
520
00:30:02.920 --> 00:30:05.920
I's so hard for me to be optimistic in utopia,
521
00:30:06.119 --> 00:30:06.799
you know what I think.
522
00:30:06.880 --> 00:30:07.480
I think.
523
00:30:08.759 --> 00:30:10.720
All of this, We're gonna be like why in the
524
00:30:10.759 --> 00:30:13.000
future and be like, why weren't we just all working
525
00:30:13.160 --> 00:30:16.480
on something directly related to climate change? But there you go,
526
00:30:18.799 --> 00:30:21.759
Well it's just what we're we thinking.
527
00:30:21.960 --> 00:30:26.680
How still adding to it? Adding to it rather than yes, okay,
528
00:30:26.759 --> 00:30:29.839
well that's what that does. That does not exactly bring
529
00:30:29.960 --> 00:30:33.880
us to our conclusion on a utopian note. But that's okay.
530
00:30:34.200 --> 00:30:37.759
And look, maybe maybe the at work utopia is already
531
00:30:37.839 --> 00:30:40.440
here with us now, believe it or not, because Dina,
532
00:30:40.519 --> 00:30:44.000
of course is choosing, choosing to join us with this
533
00:30:44.119 --> 00:30:49.400
conversation from our holiday so special special thanks to your Dina,
534
00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:54.079
and and and and and thanks Rihanna, Thanks Sean, Thanks
535
00:30:54.119 --> 00:30:56.279
again Dina for joining us. It was a wonderful chat.
536
00:30:56.759 --> 00:31:00.000
Goodbye, I love it.
537
00:31:00.079 --> 00:31:00.839
Thanks everybody.
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00:31:02.160 --> 00:31:04.440
That's it for this week's Deck Show. We'll be back
539
00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:07.079
next week. And if you don't already, be sure to
540
00:31:07.119 --> 00:31:09.759
follow the show so you don't miss an episode until
541
00:31:09.799 --> 00:31:10.319
next time.
