047 Project Relationship Management – Rachel Gertz of Louder Than Ten

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This is the creative agency podcast
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where we explore the strategies.
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Methods and mistakes behind growing and maintain successful
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Creative
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agency.
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Hello out there. I'm very excited to introduce
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c founder and director of growth and delivery
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at louder than 10 Rachel Gu, Rachel. Welcome
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to the show. Hi. How are you?
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Great. I'm really excited to have you on
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here, and
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why don't you tell our listeners where you're
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calling in from? Yeah. You bet. So we're
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just north of you folks up in Vancouver,
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Canada, and it is sunny
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surprisingly today. So I'm really happy about that.
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That is excellent very nice and sunny here
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as well.
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So louder than 10.
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Can you tell us a little bit about
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what louder than 10 is and does.
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Yeah. You've yvette. So louder than 10 is
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a training and consulting company for digital agencies.
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And our whole goal is making sure that
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folks feel like they can run project systems
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with ease,
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and that relates back to taking care of
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our people, taking care of our process
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and taking care of the leaders that run
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things day to day. And you primarily work
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with agency agencies. Is that right? Primarily. And
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we also work with creative studios and product
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studios. And then if you're a creative team
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inside of a larger enterprise, we also work
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with those focuses as. Okay. Awesome. Yeah.
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Well, I always like to ask, you know,
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tell a little bit of the origin story
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of louder than 10 and maybe even a
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little bit about your background on how you
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came to founding this agency?
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Yeah. For sure. So about 15 years ago,
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I had, finished my education degree. I have
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a history and background and education, and my
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whole passion ended up being,
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like, systems and process. And I fell into
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this as many people do with my business
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partner at the time, but we decided to
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take a road trip with an Rv. So
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it's kind of before Instagram before everyone was
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doing quote. Band life right testing, ma'am. And
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we took our show on the road, and
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we basically... Were doing... We were doing freelancing,
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and I was doing freelance project management.
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And 1 of the things that I noticed,
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at that time even was it was incredibly
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lonely. There was no,
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resources available for modern digital project management
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there was no connective tissue in terms of
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just the environment and people that were like,
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yeah. I'm doing this stuff. This is how
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it works for me.
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Around that same time just afterward, like, 20
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14,
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the sort of the digital project management summit
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sprung up, and this whole, like, movement around
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digital Pm really kind of came into being.
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And as part of that, we started realizing
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that project management was something that a, a
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lot of owners and their teams They did
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it, but they didn't think a lot about
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it. It was just a thing that had
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to happen. A lot of owners start owning
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design or Dev or maybe they have a
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background in themselves But project management is excited
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of the debt, like we just gotta get
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stuff done. So a lot of it's learned
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in the trenches.
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Looking after the psychology of folk, how are
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they doing on the team What does power
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look like? How do you distribute that power
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in a way where people have ease and
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we can move through their projects in a
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way that feels like you're building towards something
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that's unified that you're aligned on that. And
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so all of this kinda came together way
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back in, like, 20 14, 20 15.
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And we really started to hone and focus
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in on digital Pm training and education, which
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naturally kind of fits into operations. Right? You
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need to be financially savvy to understand how
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business works. If you wanna be great at
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project management, you gotta know what the levers
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and dials are.
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In that same name, you gotta understand account
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management. If you don't understand how
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relationships work, not just with your team, but
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with your clients,
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you're gonna be at odds, if there's gonna
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be an odd tension between the different parties
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on the team And then that also that
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same way, just relating back to
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Not how do you run a project on
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its own because that's important, But how do
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you actually think about systems of project management?
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How do you know how many projects to
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run? There's so much art and science to
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this that I fell in love with that
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and creating that connection between all those pieces,
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and with the clients that we were working
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with became, like, I couldn't get enough of
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it. So that's kind of the origin story.
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That's awesome.
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How many people are are louder than 10?
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What's the sort of... How do you guys
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operate?
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Yeah. We're super small. Our boutiques we have
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the 3 of us right now. We have
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my trainer in Philly, and myself, I do
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a little bit of the delivery. We also
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have 1 of our workers, my partner chad.
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He's actually remotely from Bali right now. So
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Cool yeah. We're doing... Yeah. So we're doing
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kind of like a a meat remote first
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approach to the business and we're really focusing
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on, yeah, that, like, lifestyle based company, like,
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how can we create a life that we're
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overall really really loving to live. Wow. That's
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awesome. I really love your website. Both the
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both the design and the copying and messaging.
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Thanks And, actually, there's this great
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line on your website that I just felt,
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and I feel like everybody who goes to
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your website probably feels this, and it says
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your team has burnt out. Your clients are
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pissed off and your family misses you.
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I think that probably a lot of our
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listeners
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can also relate to that. And so my
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my question is is is
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why does that happen at sees?
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Yeah. For sure. You know, what's really interesting
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and I would love to dig into the
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research behind this more. I I saw... I
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think it was Kelly Campbell was was doing
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a post on, like, trauma in
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for agency leaders sort of the idea of,
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like, how and why do we start businesses
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as entrepreneurs?
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And 1 of the sort of theories is,
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like, if at home, we didn't get the,
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like, acknowledgment,
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validation, support and guidance that we needed, sometimes
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we're driven to kind of go into an
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entrepreneurial path, because then we can actually create
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the team to dream and all of these
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things that we wanted to begin with. And,
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you know, hopefully, we'll find that, like,
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relationship that create create a flow that validation.
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They're, like, we're doing the thing that we
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always wanted to do.
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So what happens I think, it's not everyone,
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Of course. Right? But what happens is that
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we can get lost in that dream of
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trying to be and do everything
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for our clients and for our teams and
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we lose ourselves.
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And in that process, not always,
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but we try to start focusing on, like,
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okay. Well, we just need to get there.
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So
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we go into short circuit mode. We start
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thinking short term instead of long term. We
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start thinking about... Well, I could do that
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faster than my project manager or my team,
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or we just need to close that deal.
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So I think a lot of these things
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are systemic based on this
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not always, but a desire to please.
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A really big desire to get it right
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to make people happy to make our clients
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extremely successful. And in that process, I think
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we can often
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kind of lose some of the
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foundation that when we started, that's what we
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wanted to build, and we just fall into
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the day to day. So that's kind of
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like a really broad
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vaguely way of talking about.
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That's interesting. I mean, it's actually very interesting.
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So my agency was founded by my brother.
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And
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he sometimes
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describes how he came to start the business
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as like, it was kind of
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away for him and a time in his
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life when he first
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had his child or his child was very
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young, and he was just getting... He just
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finished school
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And I think that he didn't have the
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same sort of community that he he'd had
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had when he was a single person,
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and he kind of there was that sort
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of desire to sort of create a family
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outside of the home. And I think that...
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I mean, I think he also understands that,
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like, it's a fool errand
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I don't think it's necessarily
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healthy. Always still think of your businesses of.
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No. Not at all. Yeah. You can't are
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your family? Right?
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Know. Yeah.
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But I think that I think your pure
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probably right that there is that sort of
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probably that tension and a lot of, you
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know, a lot of business owners founders
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along those lines.
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Yeah. I and I don't think we mean
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to you. I think happens because we do
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want that chosen family or that chosen
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community that connection, and there is something about
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the creation process Right? You you have a
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vision, you see what you wanna be and
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you seal of these things that may be
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other your clients just they not able to.
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We're always on the bleeding edge of everything.
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Right? And I mean, that's an uncomfortable and
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beautiful position to be in as a digital
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door creative agency. So I'm always interested in
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uncovering sort of like, this psychology
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behind why we're motivated to do what we
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do.
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I think if we speak to that, and
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we come in with a soft place to
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land for these leaders that are doing hard
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things.
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That creates softness for the entire team. And
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I think right now globally, I don't know
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if you're noticing this, but I think the
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entire planet
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is in need of that softness and that
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rest because we are burnt out.
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Yeah.
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We talk about burnout out a lot of
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my agents c. I mean, we... Yeah. Absolutely.
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I see it all over. I don't know
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I see with clients that We're meeting with
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too, so I know it's not just the
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agency world all.
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So. We're all in it. Right.
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Mh.
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You know I mean 1 of the reasons
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I've sort of started up this podcast too.
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I think is to talk you know, I
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feel like there's more conversations to be had.
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Yeah. So how... I'm curious how do you
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sort of engage
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with clients?
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What is... So your focus is is sort
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of project management?
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Or is that what you would say or
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you... Yeah. We call it project management ops.
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So it's how project management hooks with operations
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and kinda creates a cohesive system. Gotcha. But
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you're not actually doing project management. You're improving,
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teaching
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consulting that sort of thing.
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Instead of we can do it for you
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or you can do it. We can help.
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We wanna teach you how to... Do it.
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The interesting thing is project management is 1
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of those skills where
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everybody meets it. It's not just the dedicated
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roles, but it's valuable for everyone. Everyone understands
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a, how companies make raise money, b, how
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processes work and don't work, c how to
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deliver value throughout? That's just good for everybody.
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So we will take delivery teams and their
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leaders, and especially those folks that are running
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the projects.
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Whether... Whatever hats their titles they actually have.
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Right It's like You lead project. And we'll
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walk them through the foundations and also the
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really key
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places where we see those breakdowns in the
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system happening, which as you can imagine, are
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unusually much of it upfront, not going affect
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downstream in that project process by the time
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you get to Qa. You're like, what budget?
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Yeah. I know.
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For mark. Yeah. That seems really valuable.
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I mean, just like so many agencies. We
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you how to do, like, creative work
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and then we realized we needed project management,
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but we didn't have, any expertise in that
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way. And
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now
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we do, which is really helpful, but it
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has been... You no, I mean, we've been
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around since 2007, but I think we're just
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sort of starting to mature I'm in the
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project management sense now.
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Makes sense. Yeah. There's so much nuance to
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it. Right Here? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
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When you are working with clients, or are
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are you doing workshops, Are you auditing...
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Are you getting invited to meetings? How how
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does it work? Yeah. Yeah. So we kinda
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have 2 pathways. You can either put an
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individual into a course, and that course will
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give them the foundations they need with, like,
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7 other folks from different companies or agencies,
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and they'll kind of walk out with this
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new systems focus. So it's a good brush
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up for folks who are like, mid level,
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even senior level who are just like, Hi.
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Never actually got that formal training because it's
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not, like a typical of, like, Pm p
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style, you know if you're were in construction
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or mining. It's not like that at all.
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So that's the 1 path, But the area
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where we're really growing and excited about is
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that custom training for team. So we do
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start with an initial process audit. The idea
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is, we could come in and just be,
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like, we could point to all the things
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that we notice as in... Yeah, as a
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company and be like, yeah, Here's where you're
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going wrong, But how does that help the
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team understand their own root causes. So we
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like to do this audit analysis where the
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actual team gets put dynamite sticks on all
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the places where things start to break down,
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then they... We help them surface the root
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cause together so that when we walk away,
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we're like, hey. Here's the top 5 core
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issues that are happening. Here's kinda like why
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they're happening. Now let's actually set the modules
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to be able to train you up in
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what to do about it. Meanwhile, we'll add
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that consulting layer so that you have some
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soft touch as well where you have guidance.
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And we're also incorporating more recently, like, if
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you need that fractional support
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regarding some of the implementation, just because timing.
346
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Right? Everything is timing. You might need that
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and you just don't have the person available
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the capacity available for that. So it's kind
349
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of a nice package. To be able to
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move through ops change, which takes time. Totally,
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2, I mean, 1 of the things that
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is
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sometimes difficult is how much change happens as
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people moving in and out of the agency
355
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in a small agency, like, everything sometimes has
356
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to change.
357
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You know. Yes.
358
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Everything.
359
00:13:40,012 --> 00:13:42,001
Right? I think the average, I... What did
360
00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:44,785
I read something like every 12 to 18
361
00:13:44,785 --> 00:13:48,062
months, your processes break and change them. And
362
00:13:48,062 --> 00:13:50,205
every time you double size your processes break.
363
00:13:50,444 --> 00:13:52,349
So if you're in a growth phase, you're
364
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definitely
365
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saying pain around operations and
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documentation and
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flow. And all of the things are gonna
368
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go from feeling really good to all of
369
00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:01,994
a sudden, maybe not feeling so good at
370
00:14:01,994 --> 00:14:03,828
all. And it might drive what happened? Why
371
00:14:03,828 --> 00:14:05,424
can't we just read the document we made,
372
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like, a year ago? Because that doesn't fit
373
00:14:07,908 --> 00:14:10,212
anymore. You folks have shifted in evolved in
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a way that you don't even recognize yet.
375
00:14:12,517 --> 00:14:14,186
No. I'll say that's something that happened in
376
00:14:14,186 --> 00:14:17,467
our agencies like, we're primarily branding, but we
377
00:14:17,467 --> 00:14:20,255
always have website projects going on, but we
378
00:14:20,255 --> 00:14:23,202
got up to doing, like, 200000 dollar website
379
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projects.
380
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And then over the last
381
00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:26,878
year,
382
00:14:27,355 --> 00:14:30,061
we went down to, like, doing 20000 dollar
383
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website projects
384
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shit. And actually,
385
00:14:35,017 --> 00:14:35,336
financially,
386
00:14:36,373 --> 00:14:38,924
it wasn't great, but it's like manageable, but
387
00:14:38,924 --> 00:14:40,414
the fact that we had to
388
00:14:40,772 --> 00:14:41,827
adjust our gears
389
00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:44,900
from doing these giant projects to doing these
390
00:14:44,900 --> 00:14:45,638
small project
391
00:14:46,012 --> 00:14:47,147
was really difficult.
392
00:14:48,393 --> 00:14:49,187
No kidding.
393
00:14:49,679 --> 00:14:51,589
Can I ask what was the biggest thing
394
00:14:51,589 --> 00:14:53,579
that you folks noticed with that change from
395
00:14:53,579 --> 00:14:55,727
those larger projects to the smaller 1? What
396
00:14:55,727 --> 00:14:56,762
was happening with the team?
397
00:14:57,971 --> 00:14:58,948
Well, the
398
00:14:59,323 --> 00:15:02,925
smaller projects ended up being more template
399
00:15:03,539 --> 00:15:06,267
website projects? Where Right. I think that the
400
00:15:06,267 --> 00:15:09,542
tough thing is client expectations setting with when
401
00:15:09,542 --> 00:15:11,355
you have more limits on design, You know
402
00:15:11,554 --> 00:15:14,134
sometimes, I would almost like, over der
403
00:15:14,914 --> 00:15:16,695
our limits to clients
404
00:15:17,154 --> 00:15:18,914
because I was just so afraid that they're
405
00:15:18,914 --> 00:15:20,444
even get pissed stop up when they realize
406
00:15:20,444 --> 00:15:22,353
they couldn't do something that they asked for.
407
00:15:22,751 --> 00:15:23,648
No doubt.
408
00:15:24,342 --> 00:15:26,465
That makes perfect sense. When you think of
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the amount of budget and spend that a
410
00:15:28,496 --> 00:15:31,683
larger face 200000 dollar budget client that could
411
00:15:31,683 --> 00:15:33,993
spend. They're not as worried about where that
412
00:15:33,993 --> 00:15:35,666
10 k is gonna. But if the total
413
00:15:35,666 --> 00:15:36,120
20
414
00:15:36,556 --> 00:15:38,064
Then they're are, like, oh, that 10 is
415
00:15:38,064 --> 00:15:41,160
very, very important. And often the expectations, Are
416
00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:43,462
kind of the space really want things to
417
00:15:43,462 --> 00:15:45,702
be great. And they don't under stand a
418
00:15:45,702 --> 00:15:47,855
differential because they're not that other company. Yeah.
419
00:15:48,253 --> 00:15:50,246
That's an important amount of money for them.
420
00:15:50,645 --> 00:15:52,797
Yeah. It's a hard perspective for us to
421
00:15:52,797 --> 00:15:55,280
make because you know, like, we feel resent
422
00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:56,951
when people are asking us to do the
423
00:15:56,951 --> 00:15:58,702
same kind of work that we did for
424
00:15:58,702 --> 00:16:00,532
a much larger budget, You know?
425
00:16:01,423 --> 00:16:03,975
Totally. Yeah. Because it's, like, for you. Folks
426
00:16:03,975 --> 00:16:05,330
is it's like, it doesn't make sense, but
427
00:16:05,330 --> 00:16:07,084
for them, they have no concept of that.
428
00:16:07,243 --> 00:16:09,476
And I totally get it. And it's, like
429
00:16:09,476 --> 00:16:09,850
this
430
00:16:10,606 --> 00:16:12,916
it's a combination of empathy for, like, where
431
00:16:12,916 --> 00:16:14,429
they're at in their business and they're looking
432
00:16:14,429 --> 00:16:16,739
at trying to, like, open up new pipelines
433
00:16:16,739 --> 00:16:19,462
for revenue, and they already have, like, any
434
00:16:19,462 --> 00:16:21,376
projects on the go. And this is just
435
00:16:21,376 --> 00:16:22,892
1 more project. So they're, like,
436
00:16:23,849 --> 00:16:26,481
expectations in reality are often is completely out
437
00:16:26,481 --> 00:16:27,199
of alignment.
438
00:16:27,677 --> 00:16:29,841
I think that's that beautiful area where, like
439
00:16:29,841 --> 00:16:32,386
project management can come into play with account
440
00:16:32,386 --> 00:16:34,135
management if it's separate function or if it's
441
00:16:34,135 --> 00:16:36,282
the same, like, you know, just looking at,
442
00:16:36,441 --> 00:16:39,003
like, let's get there together. We can't do
443
00:16:39,003 --> 00:16:41,558
this in this in 3 months, but we
444
00:16:41,558 --> 00:16:44,272
could probably add that additional in 6 months
445
00:16:44,272 --> 00:16:46,029
or 12 months if and when we're able
446
00:16:46,029 --> 00:16:47,705
to release and open up some of this
447
00:16:47,705 --> 00:16:49,394
revenue for you. There's so much we can
448
00:16:49,394 --> 00:16:51,486
do with the language there. And in that
449
00:16:51,623 --> 00:16:54,570
relationship building process? Yeah. Absolutely. I I found
450
00:16:54,570 --> 00:16:56,583
myself relying more on
451
00:16:57,291 --> 00:16:59,676
conversations about hours. Hourly billing is kind of
452
00:16:59,676 --> 00:17:01,346
horrible, but it's what we deal in.
453
00:17:02,777 --> 00:17:05,502
Yeah. I understand and it's something that clients
454
00:17:05,797 --> 00:17:05,956
understand.
455
00:17:06,608 --> 00:17:07,963
You know, so you can be, like, this
456
00:17:07,963 --> 00:17:09,875
is gonna take 8 hours. This is gonna
457
00:17:09,875 --> 00:17:11,788
take 10 hours. This is gonna take 15
458
00:17:11,788 --> 00:17:13,700
hours and they get it. You know, like,
459
00:17:13,954 --> 00:17:15,789
Yeah. I think that when you, you know,
460
00:17:16,028 --> 00:17:17,942
when you're just, like, well, that's gonna be
461
00:17:17,942 --> 00:17:20,893
10000 dollars. They're just like, what? You know?
462
00:17:21,292 --> 00:17:21,792
Yikes.
463
00:17:22,329 --> 00:17:24,657
But do you notice with that materials approach.
464
00:17:24,816 --> 00:17:26,651
Like, is everything a okay up until that,
465
00:17:26,810 --> 00:17:28,724
like, your 90 percent finished and also they're
466
00:17:28,724 --> 00:17:30,957
like, well, like, when... Are we earning at
467
00:17:30,957 --> 00:17:32,871
a thing? Like, does do do you see
468
00:17:32,871 --> 00:17:34,558
when shops do that that there's, like that.
469
00:17:34,956 --> 00:17:36,149
Everything's mean fine until it's not.
470
00:17:36,786 --> 00:17:38,775
Yeah. I mean, we still... We don't, like,
471
00:17:39,094 --> 00:17:41,560
bill time and materials. I just try to
472
00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:42,515
have all the converse.
473
00:17:42,927 --> 00:17:44,616
Stations, like, this is how we're calculating,
474
00:17:45,067 --> 00:17:47,684
everything. Yeah. Still fix it. Yeah. So it's
475
00:17:47,684 --> 00:17:50,245
self fixed bid, But I do think that
476
00:17:50,714 --> 00:17:51,993
I mean, the end of the project is
477
00:17:51,993 --> 00:17:53,991
always where. We're out of hours and they're
478
00:17:53,991 --> 00:17:56,308
asking for extra things and the stakeholder that
479
00:17:56,308 --> 00:17:58,866
you didn't know existed suddenly appears it wants
480
00:17:58,866 --> 00:17:59,825
everything to change. Yeah.
481
00:18:00,557 --> 00:18:03,022
Totally busy. Scope creep. Please see that 1.
482
00:18:03,182 --> 00:18:03,261
Yep.
483
00:18:07,333 --> 00:18:09,741
Can you share some best practices for managing
484
00:18:09,877 --> 00:18:13,375
client expectations? Yeah. For sure. So usually, a
485
00:18:13,375 --> 00:18:15,602
client comes in, they know their business. You
486
00:18:15,602 --> 00:18:18,007
know your business. Right? I think a lot
487
00:18:18,007 --> 00:18:20,640
of the relationship building starts in that first
488
00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,673
and second sales call, which we recommend when
489
00:18:23,673 --> 00:18:26,243
possible, if if you have project leaders running
490
00:18:26,243 --> 00:18:26,643
the show,
491
00:18:27,442 --> 00:18:28,960
they should be brought in after that first
492
00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:31,197
sales call, at least to just vet and
493
00:18:31,197 --> 00:18:32,955
do a risk analysis on the project.
494
00:18:33,609 --> 00:18:36,090
It's just to look at alignment. Right? So
495
00:18:36,090 --> 00:18:38,090
making sure that what we say we can
496
00:18:38,090 --> 00:18:40,250
deliver is actually what's matching what's happening in
497
00:18:40,250 --> 00:18:41,289
the sales process.
498
00:18:41,864 --> 00:18:43,542
So with that, but you can even get
499
00:18:43,542 --> 00:18:45,540
your junior, your junior Pms or mid level
500
00:18:45,700 --> 00:18:48,017
Pms trained up in assessing risk by just
501
00:18:48,017 --> 00:18:49,455
having them sit in as a fly on
502
00:18:49,455 --> 00:18:51,943
the wall. 1 of the exercises that we
503
00:18:51,943 --> 00:18:54,494
recommend is have a silent dialogue with the
504
00:18:54,653 --> 00:18:56,647
Pm and whoever's is running the sales call.
505
00:18:57,125 --> 00:18:59,292
And you can have them mark quote, like,
506
00:18:59,452 --> 00:19:01,045
little red flags. You can do it with
507
00:19:01,045 --> 00:19:02,559
like a like, a like a pipe in
508
00:19:02,559 --> 00:19:04,471
at carrot on your keyboard or you can,
509
00:19:04,550 --> 00:19:06,303
like, have a system where you're, like, noting
510
00:19:06,303 --> 00:19:08,215
them in the margins. If you're doing notes.
511
00:19:08,629 --> 00:19:10,725
And it's just a kind of a nonverbal
512
00:19:10,784 --> 00:19:13,257
way to communicate, hey, Like, here's it here's
513
00:19:13,257 --> 00:19:15,332
opportunity to ask another question or here's an
514
00:19:15,332 --> 00:19:18,450
opportunity, get stronger alignment between sales and project
515
00:19:18,450 --> 00:19:20,038
management because I kinda see them as, like,
516
00:19:20,197 --> 00:19:22,024
left foot right foot, Like, they need each
517
00:19:22,024 --> 00:19:24,487
to tango. Right? Mh. And so all of
518
00:19:24,487 --> 00:19:26,178
those things kind of
519
00:19:26,649 --> 00:19:28,190
end up centering around
520
00:19:28,569 --> 00:19:31,049
once we've defined what we think we're gonna
521
00:19:31,049 --> 00:19:33,690
sell, getting the Pms in on wedding guests
522
00:19:33,690 --> 00:19:34,349
so w,
523
00:19:34,984 --> 00:19:37,402
clarifying and getting rid of any vague language
524
00:19:37,541 --> 00:19:40,338
when possible we want flexible language. So instead
525
00:19:40,338 --> 00:19:42,815
of, we'll do 2 or 3 revisions. It'll
526
00:19:42,815 --> 00:19:44,826
be like, Well, we'll do a minimum of
527
00:19:44,826 --> 00:19:46,902
2 and then every 1 after that will
528
00:19:46,902 --> 00:19:48,897
be an extra round and that's outside of
529
00:19:48,897 --> 00:19:51,771
a scope or or whatever, just clarity cardiac
530
00:19:51,771 --> 00:19:53,622
kindness. Right? So from there,
531
00:19:54,339 --> 00:19:56,333
in terms of managing expectations, and we're looking
532
00:19:56,333 --> 00:19:58,726
at that, like, hand over process. And I
533
00:19:58,726 --> 00:20:00,880
think what I often see with digital you
534
00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:03,366
is they do this almost like, hu the
535
00:20:03,366 --> 00:20:05,196
baton over to the Pm team and the
536
00:20:05,276 --> 00:20:08,380
Pm team doesn't quite get enough information. So
537
00:20:08,380 --> 00:20:09,756
if there's missing context
538
00:20:10,211 --> 00:20:12,064
around who are those key stakeholders?
539
00:20:12,851 --> 00:20:14,518
And there's new faces that really relate wait,
540
00:20:14,676 --> 00:20:17,930
Who is that. Often them introductions don't always
541
00:20:17,930 --> 00:20:20,152
get properly done, so, like, you'll just have
542
00:20:20,152 --> 00:20:22,394
this this, like, Hi. We're gonna run the
543
00:20:22,394 --> 00:20:24,248
project now and it's, like, great. Who's
544
00:20:24,624 --> 00:20:27,013
what's that first... Is that still gonna be
545
00:20:27,013 --> 00:20:28,924
involved that person doing sales or what's the
546
00:20:28,924 --> 00:20:30,015
deal? And I think
547
00:20:30,930 --> 00:20:33,421
stakeholders on the clients Side get almost like
548
00:20:33,558 --> 00:20:37,061
whiplash from that fast handover process. So, like,
549
00:20:37,380 --> 00:20:38,096
for example,
550
00:20:38,589 --> 00:20:40,664
In an onboarding process, I know this sounds
551
00:20:40,664 --> 00:20:42,021
excessive about but, like, hear me out, you
552
00:20:42,021 --> 00:20:44,357
could have, like, up to 5 short meetings
553
00:20:44,496 --> 00:20:46,331
before you're even considering, like, 1 of those
554
00:20:46,331 --> 00:20:46,970
being the kickoff.
555
00:20:47,462 --> 00:20:49,132
You might have to sit down with your
556
00:20:49,132 --> 00:20:51,677
internal stakeholders on the team and get alignment
557
00:20:51,677 --> 00:20:53,665
there, then you wanna do kind of, like,
558
00:20:53,744 --> 00:20:55,573
your your 1 on 1 with your client
559
00:20:55,573 --> 00:20:57,580
point of contact to just make sure. Like,
560
00:20:57,900 --> 00:20:59,440
how can I help you
561
00:20:59,740 --> 00:21:01,580
get where you need to go? Right? That's
562
00:21:01,580 --> 00:21:03,660
so key in helping them and supporting them.
563
00:21:04,059 --> 00:21:06,649
And then we've got, like that internal kickoff
564
00:21:06,785 --> 00:21:08,374
before the actual client kick.
565
00:21:08,851 --> 00:21:10,520
Then after the kickoff, we wanna make sure
566
00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:12,268
we're kind of, like, checking it, hey, did
567
00:21:12,268 --> 00:21:14,038
all of that sound right? Was that a
568
00:21:14,038 --> 00:21:15,636
line? Like, did we do all the things
569
00:21:15,636 --> 00:21:17,175
we needed to do in that meeting
570
00:21:17,634 --> 00:21:19,711
before then actually going in for sign offs
571
00:21:19,711 --> 00:21:22,863
and, like, getting that scope I'll finalized for
572
00:21:22,923 --> 00:21:25,900
the delivery phase. So I think we shortcut
573
00:21:26,039 --> 00:21:27,397
a little bit on that stuff. Because I'm
574
00:21:27,397 --> 00:21:29,475
we're like, oh, meetings. But these are, like,
575
00:21:30,286 --> 00:21:30,786
valuable
576
00:21:31,875 --> 00:21:34,100
information sharing meetings that are so key and
577
00:21:34,100 --> 00:21:36,484
that creative process is so key to getting
578
00:21:36,484 --> 00:21:38,726
this right. So those are just a few
579
00:21:38,726 --> 00:21:41,670
examples of how to manage those expectations. And
580
00:21:41,670 --> 00:21:44,136
we sort of do some of those meetings
581
00:21:44,136 --> 00:21:45,568
in different ways. But 1 of the questions
582
00:21:45,727 --> 00:21:47,198
I sort of I'm wondering
583
00:21:47,735 --> 00:21:50,368
is you think all 5 happen before signing
584
00:21:50,368 --> 00:21:51,028
this So?
585
00:21:51,804 --> 00:21:54,294
Yes. There's different ways to approach Right? Sometimes
586
00:21:54,294 --> 00:21:56,054
people are like, you go in firm up
587
00:21:56,054 --> 00:21:57,734
with your statement of work and it's like
588
00:21:57,734 --> 00:21:59,494
nothing changed and then you start. But I
589
00:21:59,654 --> 00:22:00,694
I like to look at it like this.
590
00:22:01,269 --> 00:22:03,750
Every single project you sell, if you design
591
00:22:03,750 --> 00:22:06,389
it to change, you design it to evolve,
592
00:22:06,710 --> 00:22:09,109
you know it's gonna start as project a
593
00:22:09,109 --> 00:22:11,599
and turn into project b because people don't
594
00:22:11,599 --> 00:22:13,187
know what they don't know. The client doesn't
595
00:22:13,187 --> 00:22:15,013
know what they don't know. The team doesn't
596
00:22:15,013 --> 00:22:16,601
know what they don't know. If we build
597
00:22:16,601 --> 00:22:19,063
that verbiage in, you can still come in
598
00:22:19,063 --> 00:22:20,669
from a statement of work for active where.
599
00:22:20,828 --> 00:22:22,823
You go in with your goals, and you
600
00:22:22,823 --> 00:22:25,457
might go in with, like, high level outcomes.
601
00:22:25,776 --> 00:22:28,330
And then what what I recommend louder than
602
00:22:28,330 --> 00:22:30,727
10. We recommend that you actually go in
603
00:22:30,727 --> 00:22:32,949
and you revise that statement of work once
604
00:22:32,949 --> 00:22:36,201
you've done your initial conversations and your kickoff.
605
00:22:36,360 --> 00:22:38,361
You wanna make sure the thing that you
606
00:22:38,361 --> 00:22:40,429
started out, like, from the sales process design,
607
00:22:40,588 --> 00:22:42,893
you've confirmed that this is actually going to
608
00:22:42,893 --> 00:22:45,676
work. Because otherwise, what happens is you're selling
609
00:22:45,676 --> 00:22:46,415
a fantasy.
610
00:22:46,964 --> 00:22:49,934
You're selling an idea instead of an actual
611
00:22:50,709 --> 00:22:54,057
constraint within real resources, real timelines, real budget.
612
00:22:54,296 --> 00:22:55,829
Yeah. So you have to give it that
613
00:22:55,829 --> 00:22:57,909
grieving room to be able to evolve, and
614
00:22:57,909 --> 00:23:00,150
then you can actually agree and that just
615
00:23:00,150 --> 00:23:03,601
gives clarity to all parties involved. Then it's
616
00:23:03,601 --> 00:23:04,954
actually way less risky,
617
00:23:05,352 --> 00:23:07,421
and it's way more comfortable even though a
618
00:23:07,421 --> 00:23:09,172
client might be like, oh, we're changing the
619
00:23:09,172 --> 00:23:10,286
thing. It's like, yeah.
620
00:23:10,859 --> 00:23:13,094
We want that to happen so that we
621
00:23:13,094 --> 00:23:15,489
nail it. Bringing a project manager in that
622
00:23:15,489 --> 00:23:17,666
sort of early sales process, probably
623
00:23:18,203 --> 00:23:19,720
not our biggest strain.
624
00:23:20,292 --> 00:23:24,898
Partially because our client services department is basically,
625
00:23:25,057 --> 00:23:25,954
like also
626
00:23:26,327 --> 00:23:28,018
sales. So our
627
00:23:28,329 --> 00:23:30,108
person who the primary salesperson
628
00:23:31,126 --> 00:23:33,523
is very well connected to the project managers,
629
00:23:33,843 --> 00:23:36,160
but I think that... Yeah. That doesn't mean
630
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,007
that we can. Involve them, and we do.
631
00:23:38,245 --> 00:23:41,504
It's just like, probably not super consistent. And
632
00:23:41,504 --> 00:23:41,742
then...
633
00:23:42,617 --> 00:23:44,604
But what, we do... Usually, our sales process
634
00:23:44,604 --> 00:23:46,009
is, like, we'll have a
635
00:23:46,367 --> 00:23:48,516
initial call with our, you know, with our
636
00:23:48,516 --> 00:23:50,743
client services director, and then she'll bring in
637
00:23:50,743 --> 00:23:53,687
subject matter matter expert, and then that will
638
00:23:53,687 --> 00:23:55,933
be when the scope sort of starts getting
639
00:23:55,933 --> 00:23:58,407
created. And then they'll be creating the proposal
640
00:23:58,407 --> 00:23:59,205
and sending it off.
641
00:24:00,243 --> 00:24:02,877
And then there is a handoff to project
642
00:24:02,877 --> 00:24:03,995
manager, obviously,
643
00:24:04,728 --> 00:24:07,679
we'll have a kickoff, and then the project
644
00:24:07,679 --> 00:24:09,194
sort of goes from there. But I I
645
00:24:09,194 --> 00:24:11,587
do think that, like, that we're not super
646
00:24:11,587 --> 00:24:13,342
consistent in bringing in the project manager and
647
00:24:13,342 --> 00:24:15,912
that sort of scope defining phase, we could
648
00:24:15,912 --> 00:24:17,191
be better at. Right.
649
00:24:17,990 --> 00:24:21,506
Again, our expertise is like, we're really good
650
00:24:21,506 --> 00:24:24,633
and as agencies at defining the problem space
651
00:24:24,633 --> 00:24:27,185
and then defining the solution space. But if
652
00:24:27,185 --> 00:24:29,658
we're sort of rushed into defining the problem
653
00:24:29,658 --> 00:24:30,854
space because we need to get to the
654
00:24:30,854 --> 00:24:32,050
sale to get to the solution,
655
00:24:32,702 --> 00:24:33,520
that's when all
656
00:24:34,051 --> 00:24:36,273
the fan. That's when everything starts breaking down.
657
00:24:36,511 --> 00:24:39,130
So we didn't ask enough questions. Yeah. And
658
00:24:39,130 --> 00:24:41,769
then the questions pop up in the middle
659
00:24:41,769 --> 00:24:43,526
development. It was, like, why are we doing
660
00:24:43,526 --> 00:24:44,565
that? Yeah.
661
00:24:45,204 --> 00:24:47,521
It's so painful. It can be so painful
662
00:24:47,521 --> 00:24:48,640
for shops. It's awful.
663
00:24:49,453 --> 00:24:50,885
It's like, hello. I've never met you before.
664
00:24:51,124 --> 00:24:52,318
Can you give me a website in 3
665
00:24:52,318 --> 00:24:54,228
months? You know, It's right like...
666
00:24:55,740 --> 00:24:57,730
Yeah. And it needs to do this. This
667
00:24:57,730 --> 00:24:58,606
is this, and it's, like,
668
00:24:59,736 --> 00:25:00,236
slow.
669
00:25:00,932 --> 00:25:03,084
Why what when how when are we doing
670
00:25:03,164 --> 00:25:03,403
Right?
671
00:25:05,475 --> 00:25:06,352
Yeah. Exactly.
672
00:25:07,163 --> 00:25:08,833
I think this admin that I see and
673
00:25:08,833 --> 00:25:10,684
it is that because of this forced
674
00:25:11,138 --> 00:25:13,943
monetization, you know, we have been put in
675
00:25:14,079 --> 00:25:16,146
position where as agencies we really have to
676
00:25:16,146 --> 00:25:18,728
rush. Everything. Like, it's all because of
677
00:25:19,103 --> 00:25:21,011
it's all because everyone else is doing it
678
00:25:21,011 --> 00:25:23,635
faster, cheaper and somehow better. And we're trying
679
00:25:23,635 --> 00:25:24,565
to compete and
680
00:25:25,003 --> 00:25:26,699
I think that there is this
681
00:25:27,236 --> 00:25:28,671
transformation of how we're looking at what we
682
00:25:28,671 --> 00:25:30,505
do. A lot of folks are focusing more
683
00:25:30,505 --> 00:25:32,737
on service design because it's more broad in
684
00:25:32,737 --> 00:25:35,544
terms of, like, We're looking at value creation
685
00:25:35,544 --> 00:25:37,617
here. We're not looking at our website. We're
686
00:25:37,617 --> 00:25:39,851
looking at a relationship that is going to
687
00:25:39,851 --> 00:25:42,084
extend that is going to open up other
688
00:25:42,084 --> 00:25:44,487
pipeline revenue for you that is going to
689
00:25:44,487 --> 00:25:46,629
create an ongoing monthly recurring revenue that a
690
00:25:46,629 --> 00:25:48,375
system for us, you know, like we want
691
00:25:48,375 --> 00:25:49,272
that shared
692
00:25:49,644 --> 00:25:51,966
connection, and that takes time. Just like you're
693
00:25:51,966 --> 00:25:53,880
building a relationship if you were finding a
694
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:55,874
romantic partner. If you came out, like,
695
00:25:56,751 --> 00:25:58,665
20 question from the first state. So you
696
00:25:58,665 --> 00:26:00,180
want kids? Yeah. Would be like,
697
00:26:02,745 --> 00:26:04,179
I think there is something to that and
698
00:26:04,259 --> 00:26:06,330
I... I... It's so much beautiful nuance to
699
00:26:06,330 --> 00:26:07,388
the sales process.
700
00:26:07,939 --> 00:26:09,615
Because we still gotta close the deal. No.
701
00:26:09,855 --> 00:26:11,930
That's valuable. And it's also timely for us.
702
00:26:12,169 --> 00:26:14,564
We are switching... I mean, we for the
703
00:26:14,564 --> 00:26:16,375
longest time we're in in and out
704
00:26:16,972 --> 00:26:19,043
agency. Like, we did the thing for you,
705
00:26:19,123 --> 00:26:20,636
and then you took off at at the
706
00:26:20,636 --> 00:26:22,708
end of it, and we're we're doing a
707
00:26:22,708 --> 00:26:25,416
lot more retainer and relationship stuff now.
708
00:26:26,228 --> 00:26:28,538
Great. We know it's better. I think we've
709
00:26:28,538 --> 00:26:30,210
always kind of known it better, but, like,
710
00:26:30,369 --> 00:26:30,869
we
711
00:26:31,485 --> 00:26:32,759
did it the other way because it was,
712
00:26:32,839 --> 00:26:34,511
like, people just kept on knocking on our
713
00:26:34,511 --> 00:26:35,744
door. And,
714
00:26:36,361 --> 00:26:39,632
yeah. Totally understandable. Yeah. It is. It's that...
715
00:26:40,190 --> 00:26:42,160
Yeah. It's like, slow down to go fast
716
00:26:42,279 --> 00:26:43,951
Right? We have to look at the deeper
717
00:26:43,951 --> 00:26:46,101
reason for that connection and, like, how we're
718
00:26:46,101 --> 00:26:47,853
going to nurture it. I know people always
719
00:26:47,853 --> 00:26:49,763
talk about. They're, like, yeah So project management
720
00:26:49,763 --> 00:26:51,451
is, like, just getting stuff done. I'm like
721
00:26:51,451 --> 00:26:54,082
man, It should be called something different altogether
722
00:26:54,082 --> 00:26:57,133
because we teach a blend of project and
723
00:26:57,191 --> 00:26:59,756
accounts. You're thinking about the needs of the
724
00:26:59,756 --> 00:27:03,021
client 3 steps away. And that new nuance
725
00:27:03,021 --> 00:27:05,250
there I think is so important. And I
726
00:27:05,250 --> 00:27:07,241
think that if you have project managers that
727
00:27:07,241 --> 00:27:10,277
aren't curious, and they're not compassionate and care
728
00:27:10,277 --> 00:27:10,754
focused.
729
00:27:11,310 --> 00:27:13,615
They're... They might be really good at the
730
00:27:13,615 --> 00:27:14,967
details they might be really good at be
731
00:27:14,967 --> 00:27:16,238
like, hey, we're gonna go over for budget.
732
00:27:16,477 --> 00:27:19,855
But it doesn't speak to growth of the
733
00:27:19,912 --> 00:27:22,219
relationship. It doesn't speak to connection with the
734
00:27:22,219 --> 00:27:23,673
team on burden that's
735
00:27:24,063 --> 00:27:25,569
And I think we lose something in there.
736
00:27:26,124 --> 00:27:28,502
So hands down, I would always be looking
737
00:27:28,502 --> 00:27:30,984
for a project manager who shows curiosity
738
00:27:31,926 --> 00:27:33,908
compassion and care in their way of working.
739
00:27:34,225 --> 00:27:34,622
That's great.
740
00:27:35,256 --> 00:27:35,811
I like that.
741
00:27:37,634 --> 00:27:38,982
Okay. Some more questions for you.
742
00:27:39,714 --> 00:27:41,331
In your estimation what makes
743
00:27:41,710 --> 00:27:43,067
agencies more efficient?
744
00:27:44,504 --> 00:27:47,298
Oh, yes. Okay. So efficiency from an agency
745
00:27:47,298 --> 00:27:49,308
perspective. Right? You have a project life cycle,
746
00:27:49,787 --> 00:27:51,863
The majority of your money that comes in
747
00:27:51,863 --> 00:27:53,459
from a project or client is going to
748
00:27:53,459 --> 00:27:55,773
go out to labor. So of course, labor
749
00:27:55,773 --> 00:27:57,505
is 1 of the biggest ones. Now
750
00:27:57,942 --> 00:28:00,010
without getting into the history of utilization and
751
00:28:00,010 --> 00:28:02,079
the fact that there's a whole issue around
752
00:28:02,079 --> 00:28:04,465
the scientific method and how it's a characteristic
753
00:28:04,465 --> 00:28:07,107
and stick driver of, like, cogs in the
754
00:28:07,107 --> 00:28:09,900
whale, not going there could, but maybe another
755
00:28:09,900 --> 00:28:10,059
day.
756
00:28:10,778 --> 00:28:12,634
The idea of creating
757
00:28:13,011 --> 00:28:15,101
clarity around where do I stop and where
758
00:28:15,101 --> 00:28:16,776
do you begin? What are the things that
759
00:28:16,776 --> 00:28:18,451
if we were able to solve them in
760
00:28:18,451 --> 00:28:20,865
real time? Or if we were some more
761
00:28:21,003 --> 00:28:22,837
symbolic in our async time, we were actually
762
00:28:22,837 --> 00:28:25,792
able to get better work done separately and
763
00:28:25,792 --> 00:28:28,251
come together to solve the harder problems, that
764
00:28:28,251 --> 00:28:30,393
kind of stuff in the efficiency of processes
765
00:28:30,393 --> 00:28:31,424
is very valuable.
766
00:28:32,154 --> 00:28:33,755
A lot of it is is the clarity
767
00:28:33,755 --> 00:28:36,315
and kindness of boundary setting. I find that
768
00:28:36,315 --> 00:28:39,274
a lot of digital pms are not hot.
769
00:28:39,849 --> 00:28:41,226
How to set proper boundaries
770
00:28:41,683 --> 00:28:42,241
around their
771
00:28:43,199 --> 00:28:43,996
relationships and projects.
772
00:28:44,554 --> 00:28:47,506
So efficiency actually comes down from being able
773
00:28:47,506 --> 00:28:50,153
to have the hard conversations. And it also
774
00:28:50,153 --> 00:28:50,712
comes from,
775
00:28:51,510 --> 00:28:52,010
having
776
00:28:52,707 --> 00:28:55,261
continuous improvement, it's a word that everybody has
777
00:28:55,261 --> 00:28:57,597
baked in now. Right? But if we don't
778
00:28:57,656 --> 00:28:59,765
learn, from our past experiences,
779
00:29:00,221 --> 00:29:01,974
we're not gonna get that efficiency back.
780
00:29:03,249 --> 00:29:05,662
When we don't sit down and
781
00:29:06,214 --> 00:29:08,289
actually have targets in mind with, like, target
782
00:29:08,289 --> 00:29:11,403
client revenue or... Even, like, target revenue per
783
00:29:11,403 --> 00:29:15,016
full time employee. We're not going to understand
784
00:29:15,409 --> 00:29:17,242
how the business runs and what we need
785
00:29:17,242 --> 00:29:18,518
to be able to do to help get
786
00:29:18,518 --> 00:29:19,815
it there. I think,
787
00:29:20,192 --> 00:29:21,627
you probably heard this line, but I believe
788
00:29:21,627 --> 00:29:23,621
it. Everyone's job is business development.
789
00:29:24,432 --> 00:29:26,423
Everybody's there to support that process and function
790
00:29:26,423 --> 00:29:28,892
of that. Right? Yeah. So if efficiency comes
791
00:29:28,892 --> 00:29:33,366
from saving time, saving money, saving energy, And
792
00:29:33,525 --> 00:29:35,194
I would also say on a flip side
793
00:29:35,194 --> 00:29:38,611
project management is a huge driver of additional
794
00:29:38,611 --> 00:29:41,631
freed up revenue from capturing scope creep or
795
00:29:41,631 --> 00:29:44,277
just seeing opportunity, like an account manager would.
796
00:29:44,517 --> 00:29:47,489
Right. No. I mean, I that's project management
797
00:29:47,547 --> 00:29:49,164
is kind of where profitability
798
00:29:49,541 --> 00:29:52,427
comes from because if you don't manage a
799
00:29:52,427 --> 00:29:54,736
project wealth, then you're not gonna make money
800
00:29:54,736 --> 00:29:55,294
on. Yeah.
801
00:29:56,648 --> 00:29:58,081
Yeah. And when you're dealing with 15 percent
802
00:29:58,081 --> 00:29:59,993
to 20 percent margin, like, 20, if you're
803
00:29:59,993 --> 00:30:02,876
real good. That's not a lot of of
804
00:30:02,876 --> 00:30:05,027
room to not get that right. Right? Like,
805
00:30:05,187 --> 00:30:07,179
that's where you're gonna see your margins increase.
806
00:30:07,338 --> 00:30:08,932
I think there's... I have to pull where
807
00:30:08,932 --> 00:30:10,286
this is from, but it's, like, if you
808
00:30:10,286 --> 00:30:13,180
add project manager, your profit margin can go
809
00:30:13,180 --> 00:30:15,980
up by 15 percent. Like, you're instantly going
810
00:30:15,980 --> 00:30:17,980
to happen not instantly, but, like, very soon
811
00:30:17,980 --> 00:30:19,900
going to see this beautiful knock gonna affect
812
00:30:19,900 --> 00:30:20,400
from
813
00:30:21,590 --> 00:30:24,299
organization, letting go the... With people who should
814
00:30:24,299 --> 00:30:26,291
not be managing those relationships, they have to
815
00:30:26,291 --> 00:30:28,777
let go of those relationships. When the Pm
816
00:30:28,777 --> 00:30:30,851
can come in and support that process. That's
817
00:30:30,851 --> 00:30:33,164
where you're gonna see massive a amounts of
818
00:30:33,164 --> 00:30:34,462
change and focus
819
00:30:35,174 --> 00:30:37,569
Right? That's where our efficiency and productivity comes
820
00:30:37,569 --> 00:30:40,682
from? I like that. Mh. What strategies do
821
00:30:40,682 --> 00:30:42,140
you recommend for enhancing
822
00:30:42,917 --> 00:30:43,795
collaboration within an age?
823
00:30:44,609 --> 00:30:45,409
Oh I love it.
824
00:30:46,289 --> 00:30:48,369
So there... If you... If you've never read
825
00:30:48,369 --> 00:30:50,690
the art of collaboration collaboration I'm totally awful
826
00:30:50,690 --> 00:30:52,450
with author their names, director names do not
827
00:30:52,450 --> 00:30:53,865
ask me who wrote or
828
00:30:54,222 --> 00:30:57,006
Prometheus because I won't probably forget. But my
829
00:30:57,006 --> 00:30:58,517
the art of gathering is a book that
830
00:30:58,517 --> 00:31:01,220
is fantastic. I recommend it for everyone. And
831
00:31:01,220 --> 00:31:04,359
the idea is we're looking at ways of
832
00:31:04,575 --> 00:31:07,359
facilitating group with So everyone's got their own
833
00:31:07,359 --> 00:31:09,666
specialties their own skills. And when we're coming
834
00:31:09,666 --> 00:31:10,621
together in these spaces,
835
00:31:11,112 --> 00:31:13,097
even doing activities, like, I think it's, like,
836
00:31:13,255 --> 00:31:13,970
124.
837
00:31:14,128 --> 00:31:16,192
Right? So you have large group, break into
838
00:31:16,192 --> 00:31:18,177
2 groups, then break into 4 groups then
839
00:31:18,177 --> 00:31:21,055
back together again? You can do so much
840
00:31:21,055 --> 00:31:24,584
with these, just ways of creating open ended
841
00:31:25,121 --> 00:31:28,070
opportunity for flow. Right? For a problem solving.
842
00:31:28,404 --> 00:31:30,154
1 of my favorite activities, I I actually
843
00:31:30,154 --> 00:31:31,665
just ran this the other day with a
844
00:31:31,665 --> 00:31:34,290
a house building team and moving into, like,
845
00:31:34,370 --> 00:31:37,036
the digital realm and we did an anti
846
00:31:37,174 --> 00:31:38,312
problem game
847
00:31:39,248 --> 00:31:39,646
activity.
848
00:31:40,125 --> 00:31:42,199
So this is great. If you ever get
849
00:31:42,199 --> 00:31:43,315
stuck in a place where really like, I
850
00:31:43,315 --> 00:31:44,990
don't know how to solve for this problem.
851
00:31:45,070 --> 00:31:47,156
It's so complex. I've never done it. It's
852
00:31:47,156 --> 00:31:48,908
emergent what the heck. You can go and
853
00:31:48,908 --> 00:31:50,501
can do like Alright. Well let's talk about
854
00:31:50,501 --> 00:31:52,731
the worst way to solve this problem. So
855
00:31:52,731 --> 00:31:54,499
imagine you had to... I don't know. Build,
856
00:31:54,579 --> 00:31:56,037
like, a website for
857
00:31:56,415 --> 00:31:58,331
dog food company, and you're like, well, let's
858
00:31:58,331 --> 00:32:00,007
look at all the worst ways we could
859
00:32:00,007 --> 00:32:02,243
do that. You can actually start getting everyone
860
00:32:02,243 --> 00:32:03,461
to brainstorm silently.
861
00:32:04,251 --> 00:32:05,387
Silently categorize
862
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,303
their thoughts and feelings. And then you can
863
00:32:08,303 --> 00:32:10,130
start looking at... Well, what would be the
864
00:32:10,130 --> 00:32:11,980
opposite of that? And that's how you can
865
00:32:11,980 --> 00:32:14,059
arrive at, like, why... Like, you get ridiculous.
866
00:32:14,220 --> 00:32:15,660
You're like, well, the worst way to build
867
00:32:15,660 --> 00:32:18,140
it is we should employ sharks to come
868
00:32:18,140 --> 00:32:21,269
in and, like, make website. But what that
869
00:32:21,269 --> 00:32:23,742
can reveal. Right? Because you're like, less ridiculous,
870
00:32:23,902 --> 00:32:26,135
but what that can reveal is stuff that's
871
00:32:26,135 --> 00:32:28,710
out side of the immediate realm of, like,
872
00:32:28,869 --> 00:32:29,369
our
873
00:32:29,670 --> 00:32:31,990
imagination. So maybe we're thinking, oh, what we're
874
00:32:31,990 --> 00:32:34,470
talking about is the right person for the
875
00:32:34,470 --> 00:32:36,801
for the right job. Right? And maybe something
876
00:32:36,801 --> 00:32:39,355
that's unconventional because maybe we wouldn't normally think
877
00:32:39,355 --> 00:32:41,771
of a subject matter expert in this particular
878
00:32:41,830 --> 00:32:45,039
area, but maybe a scientist who is familiar
879
00:32:45,039 --> 00:32:45,539
with,
880
00:32:46,319 --> 00:32:48,559
dog behavior, for example might be a better
881
00:32:48,559 --> 00:32:51,359
fit for Sm than just a dog food.
882
00:32:51,934 --> 00:32:53,842
I don't know. I'm really pulling dodge with
883
00:32:53,842 --> 00:32:56,067
the dog. I'm trying to follow. I'm almost
884
00:32:56,067 --> 00:32:56,226
there.
885
00:32:58,293 --> 00:32:59,565
Me too. I'm almost say it's to you.
886
00:32:59,819 --> 00:33:02,050
But for example, Baggage just helps you extend
887
00:33:02,050 --> 00:33:04,441
past like, are kind of linear your thinking.
888
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:06,615
It really throws you into some light
889
00:33:07,310 --> 00:33:09,257
abstract. Thinking. I love that. I like that
890
00:33:09,314 --> 00:33:11,462
exercise. I feel like I wanna try it
891
00:33:11,462 --> 00:33:12,655
out. So we'll see what...
892
00:33:14,246 --> 00:33:15,934
Sweet. Let me know if you... If you
893
00:33:15,934 --> 00:33:17,527
get into the dog good realm and you're
894
00:33:17,527 --> 00:33:19,041
thinking about sharks just, like, let me know.
895
00:33:21,192 --> 00:33:22,483
Rachel L. Sharks.
896
00:33:25,593 --> 00:33:28,146
What about an example of, you know, an
897
00:33:28,146 --> 00:33:30,618
engagement that you've had with an agency that
898
00:33:30,618 --> 00:33:32,706
really made a big difference Thank you. Yeah.
899
00:33:32,945 --> 00:33:35,016
So we worked with the Colorado based agency,
900
00:33:35,096 --> 00:33:36,928
and they were marketing focused, and they were
901
00:33:36,928 --> 00:33:39,397
really, kind of hitting their upper limit on
902
00:33:39,397 --> 00:33:40,991
their size. I think at the time, they
903
00:33:40,991 --> 00:33:41,805
were about,
904
00:33:42,445 --> 00:33:44,045
8 or 8 to 12 people,
905
00:33:44,684 --> 00:33:46,205
plus or minus, and they were trying to
906
00:33:46,205 --> 00:33:49,497
get past that growth limit. And so what
907
00:33:49,497 --> 00:33:51,014
we had to... What we really focused on
908
00:33:51,014 --> 00:33:53,829
from the consulting side was walking them through
909
00:33:54,047 --> 00:33:56,362
some of the glimmer beliefs and behaviors that
910
00:33:56,362 --> 00:33:58,605
they were running into repeatedly. They didn't even
911
00:33:58,605 --> 00:34:00,270
know they weren't aware of. And so a
912
00:34:00,270 --> 00:34:03,307
lot of that was assumptions being made between
913
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:04,947
sales and delivery.
914
00:34:05,359 --> 00:34:07,277
And so when we stopped and... We slowed
915
00:34:07,277 --> 00:34:09,434
down a little to evaluate. We started to
916
00:34:09,434 --> 00:34:11,591
uncover some of these key patterns that they
917
00:34:11,591 --> 00:34:12,310
kept repeating.
918
00:34:13,043 --> 00:34:14,559
Going back and trying to remember, I think
919
00:34:14,559 --> 00:34:16,495
a lot of it was pushing
920
00:34:16,873 --> 00:34:19,586
information instead of allowing the folks running the
921
00:34:19,586 --> 00:34:22,387
projects to pull the information out of them.
922
00:34:22,705 --> 00:34:23,682
Because fire hydrant
923
00:34:24,137 --> 00:34:26,045
anybody is not gonna yield in a on
924
00:34:26,045 --> 00:34:28,454
net positive, you're gonna just drown somebody in
925
00:34:29,244 --> 00:34:31,484
words you're using. Right? So we started to
926
00:34:31,484 --> 00:34:32,684
see these neat patterns,
927
00:34:33,164 --> 00:34:35,644
and then we also created an opportunity to
928
00:34:35,644 --> 00:34:37,565
look at if you were able to grow
929
00:34:37,565 --> 00:34:39,969
your team To get to the size, we
930
00:34:39,969 --> 00:34:42,355
focusing on the maturity level of the clients
931
00:34:42,355 --> 00:34:43,230
that actually fit?
932
00:34:43,867 --> 00:34:46,187
Could you start seeing when we work with,
933
00:34:46,346 --> 00:34:46,664
you know,
934
00:34:47,380 --> 00:34:50,422
not adolescent clients, like, adolescent where they're just
935
00:34:50,558 --> 00:34:52,306
just starting to get their business models figured
936
00:34:52,306 --> 00:34:54,547
out. They're still organizing on their, like, directors
937
00:34:54,547 --> 00:34:56,537
and all that. But, like, into their prime,
938
00:34:57,254 --> 00:34:59,562
you can see... Well, there's this opportunity for
939
00:34:59,562 --> 00:35:01,313
growth that if we train this person, this
940
00:35:01,313 --> 00:35:03,743
person in this in these key skill areas
941
00:35:03,802 --> 00:35:05,721
around communication, scope management,
942
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:09,396
and maybe even managing change, we're gonna start
943
00:35:09,396 --> 00:35:12,385
seeing this transformation in helping clients go from
944
00:35:12,442 --> 00:35:16,100
this adolescence into a prime maturity level, which
945
00:35:16,100 --> 00:35:17,157
then unlocks
946
00:35:17,611 --> 00:35:19,384
potentially millions of dollars of revenue
947
00:35:19,934 --> 00:35:22,406
of which they can allocate more back to
948
00:35:22,406 --> 00:35:24,719
marketing, which then allows you folks to grow.
949
00:35:24,958 --> 00:35:27,272
So it's, like kind of completing the whole
950
00:35:27,670 --> 00:35:29,346
circle on that system.
951
00:35:29,839 --> 00:35:32,000
And it was really a fun. It was
952
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:32,719
such a great,
953
00:35:33,279 --> 00:35:35,119
engagement. I had so much fun working with
954
00:35:35,119 --> 00:35:37,199
them. And just having them, like,
955
00:35:37,852 --> 00:35:40,153
share some of the big that they had
956
00:35:40,153 --> 00:35:41,661
for this in terms of how we could
957
00:35:41,661 --> 00:35:44,280
translate that from a project management perspective. That's
958
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:45,629
really interesting focus.
959
00:35:46,279 --> 00:35:48,354
So you're actually thinking about the clients that
960
00:35:48,354 --> 00:35:49,869
you're working with now and how you can
961
00:35:49,869 --> 00:35:51,545
grow them to the point where they can
962
00:35:51,545 --> 00:35:52,264
pay you more money.
963
00:35:53,221 --> 00:35:54,911
In clean. I I mean the other thing
964
00:35:54,911 --> 00:35:57,460
is, like, we don't necessarily know that if
965
00:35:57,460 --> 00:35:58,895
they grow, they're gonna give us more money,
966
00:35:59,692 --> 00:36:02,175
what we hope. But, like, not But I
967
00:36:02,175 --> 00:36:03,626
don't know that we're strategically...
968
00:36:04,077 --> 00:36:05,662
I mean, some of that, I suppose might
969
00:36:05,662 --> 00:36:07,747
be some having more insight
970
00:36:08,277 --> 00:36:09,015
into their
971
00:36:09,484 --> 00:36:13,155
success financials, things like that. Yeah. Because you
972
00:36:13,155 --> 00:36:15,709
can have conversations like that, be like, where
973
00:36:15,709 --> 00:36:17,146
do we need to get in order to
974
00:36:17,146 --> 00:36:18,918
do this? When you think about it in
975
00:36:18,918 --> 00:36:21,415
that initial sales call? You need to know
976
00:36:21,474 --> 00:36:23,791
what are their business goals for growth. What
977
00:36:23,791 --> 00:36:25,639
are their own issues that are slowing them
978
00:36:25,639 --> 00:36:26,987
down. Because if they're like, hey Can you
979
00:36:26,987 --> 00:36:28,414
build me a website, and then you find
980
00:36:28,414 --> 00:36:30,579
out with their their actual issue is that
981
00:36:30,713 --> 00:36:33,822
their teams are so disorganized that they're unable
982
00:36:33,822 --> 00:36:35,887
to actually achieve the goals that if you
983
00:36:35,887 --> 00:36:38,214
created the website, it would launch, you're gonna
984
00:36:38,271 --> 00:36:40,972
unblock them. They're gonna be more available for
985
00:36:40,972 --> 00:36:43,216
your my calls. They're gonna be more focused.
986
00:36:43,455 --> 00:36:45,048
And not only that, they might be able
987
00:36:45,048 --> 00:36:48,155
to hire 2 people that then can start
988
00:36:48,155 --> 00:36:50,410
direct and growing that area of the business
989
00:36:50,410 --> 00:36:51,690
that you're like, hey, we could help you
990
00:36:51,690 --> 00:36:53,610
get there. So if you're able to ask
991
00:36:53,610 --> 00:36:56,103
those those questions, who's at the table Are
992
00:36:56,103 --> 00:36:58,018
you trying to accomplish this year? Where have
993
00:36:58,018 --> 00:37:00,889
you actually noticed your own bottlenecks? And, like,
994
00:37:01,048 --> 00:37:02,724
when you tried to do this project before
995
00:37:02,724 --> 00:37:04,717
if you did, what stopped you from getting
996
00:37:04,717 --> 00:37:06,724
where you needed to go? We're not in
997
00:37:06,724 --> 00:37:09,349
the business of delivering projects. Even though I
998
00:37:09,349 --> 00:37:11,338
know I'm all about project management, The whole
999
00:37:11,338 --> 00:37:14,304
idea is we're trying to help you sustain
1000
00:37:14,774 --> 00:37:15,673
and scale
1001
00:37:16,051 --> 00:37:16,551
responsibly.
1002
00:37:17,089 --> 00:37:18,686
So our team can help you do that
1003
00:37:18,846 --> 00:37:20,682
By that, mean I think we do sort
1004
00:37:20,682 --> 00:37:23,077
of refocus our attention as agencies into almost
1005
00:37:23,077 --> 00:37:26,530
like boutique consult mh Wait, we become specialized
1006
00:37:26,530 --> 00:37:29,489
in helping other businesses grow, and that really
1007
00:37:29,489 --> 00:37:31,730
should be our job. It is really interesting
1008
00:37:31,730 --> 00:37:32,949
because I think that sometimes
1009
00:37:33,824 --> 00:37:36,641
that value that having access to expert
1010
00:37:37,100 --> 00:37:38,319
is not
1011
00:37:38,858 --> 00:37:39,358
really
1012
00:37:40,217 --> 00:37:42,547
billed for in the way that like, especially
1013
00:37:42,547 --> 00:37:44,458
if you're selling hours or you're selling products,
1014
00:37:44,856 --> 00:37:46,472
it's not really quantified
1015
00:37:47,326 --> 00:37:49,715
always. And in that way, like, the client
1016
00:37:49,715 --> 00:37:50,692
doesn't know
1017
00:37:51,085 --> 00:37:52,364
how valuable it is either.
1018
00:37:53,405 --> 00:37:55,164
Yeah. They might take an idea or they
1019
00:37:55,164 --> 00:37:57,164
might take some advice and go utilize it
1020
00:37:57,244 --> 00:37:58,784
It might be wildly successful
1021
00:37:59,258 --> 00:38:00,713
and they may or may not
1022
00:38:01,088 --> 00:38:02,998
attribute that to something that's paid for.
1023
00:38:05,306 --> 00:38:07,312
Exactly. And that's why it's so key. Right?
1024
00:38:07,472 --> 00:38:09,545
Right up upfront to be establishing that kind
1025
00:38:09,545 --> 00:38:11,640
of a relationship that kind of curiosity
1026
00:38:12,336 --> 00:38:15,047
and that kind of confidence in our ability
1027
00:38:15,047 --> 00:38:17,533
to deliver at that as that digital agency
1028
00:38:17,533 --> 00:38:20,161
because all of those pieces, like following where
1029
00:38:20,161 --> 00:38:21,857
your points of contact go
1030
00:38:22,233 --> 00:38:24,384
when they're not at that current job anymore.
1031
00:38:24,702 --> 00:38:28,175
All of that breathe longer term opportunities and
1032
00:38:28,235 --> 00:38:30,315
relationships to continue. Because I think it is
1033
00:38:30,315 --> 00:38:31,914
a bit of a lens shift on how
1034
00:38:31,914 --> 00:38:33,275
we look at it. Like, we're not building
1035
00:38:33,275 --> 00:38:35,126
the thing. That is the least important part
1036
00:38:35,126 --> 00:38:38,079
of this file conversation. We're establishing an a
1037
00:38:38,079 --> 00:38:40,953
scalable way of building a business here together.
1038
00:38:41,352 --> 00:38:43,364
Where's the limit on that from a project
1039
00:38:43,364 --> 00:38:46,958
budget perspective. Right? Yeah. Start with 1, build
1040
00:38:46,958 --> 00:38:49,195
the trust and then grow, grow, grow grow
1041
00:38:49,195 --> 00:38:51,922
with them. Sustainably. Yeah. Someone comes to us
1042
00:38:51,922 --> 00:38:53,996
for a logo or a website or, you
1043
00:38:53,996 --> 00:38:57,346
know, new packaging design is transforming what they're
1044
00:38:57,346 --> 00:38:59,181
asking for into something more useful.
1045
00:39:00,713 --> 00:39:02,870
Yeah. Which is a valuable skill set in
1046
00:39:02,870 --> 00:39:04,170
and of itself. And
1047
00:39:04,708 --> 00:39:07,365
they think they need this thing, but actually
1048
00:39:07,679 --> 00:39:09,760
if we build this other thing that's kinda
1049
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:11,940
similar, you're gonna get more bang
1050
00:39:12,319 --> 00:39:14,639
luck. Yeah. So you can say that. We
1051
00:39:14,639 --> 00:39:16,723
could build this thing. And if we built
1052
00:39:16,723 --> 00:39:19,106
this other thing first or second, then we
1053
00:39:19,106 --> 00:39:20,535
could do x, when do you think of
1054
00:39:20,535 --> 00:39:22,941
that. And I think that kind of
1055
00:39:23,393 --> 00:39:24,449
expertise is
1056
00:39:24,838 --> 00:39:26,131
that's priceless.
1057
00:39:26,980 --> 00:39:29,201
That's what they're really paying for. We had
1058
00:39:29,201 --> 00:39:31,184
folks who protests and say, you're asking for
1059
00:39:31,184 --> 00:39:31,684
the,
1060
00:39:31,994 --> 00:39:34,232
but we wanna develop the problem spaces. And
1061
00:39:34,232 --> 00:39:36,070
let's ask more questions about where you're at?
1062
00:39:36,230 --> 00:39:37,588
Why are you here? What are you trying
1063
00:39:37,588 --> 00:39:38,228
to accomplish?
1064
00:39:38,707 --> 00:39:40,545
Slow down on that.
1065
00:39:41,514 --> 00:39:43,416
Understand. And that's where you can end earth
1066
00:39:43,416 --> 00:39:45,080
all of that together. And I would be
1067
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:46,507
like, yeah, You whatever it takes. Give me
1068
00:39:46,666 --> 00:39:48,013
Yeah. I wanna do this that exactly.
1069
00:39:48,742 --> 00:39:50,413
No. I love that. I mean, for us
1070
00:39:50,413 --> 00:39:53,038
as an agency, it's like kinda the most
1071
00:39:53,038 --> 00:39:55,106
important thing. I mean, it kinda sounds like
1072
00:39:55,106 --> 00:39:57,230
so kinda globally, like, like
1073
00:39:57,829 --> 00:40:00,066
agencies need to be doing this, and I
1074
00:40:00,066 --> 00:40:02,143
think that it is interesting to see that
1075
00:40:02,143 --> 00:40:04,141
that you view it as, like, a trend
1076
00:40:04,141 --> 00:40:07,895
something that's vital. For all agencies. Yes. I
1077
00:40:07,895 --> 00:40:09,984
think it will be the difference ultimately
1078
00:40:10,437 --> 00:40:12,264
between the ones who are successful and the
1079
00:40:12,264 --> 00:40:14,263
ones who cannot be... Because of all of
1080
00:40:14,263 --> 00:40:16,722
these other automations and processes that are happening.
1081
00:40:16,881 --> 00:40:18,864
Right? Agencies will be expected to be all
1082
00:40:18,864 --> 00:40:20,371
and do it all, do a cheaper do
1083
00:40:20,371 --> 00:40:21,742
it. Faster, do it all of these things.
1084
00:40:21,981 --> 00:40:24,215
If you can create ongoing value, then you're
1085
00:40:24,215 --> 00:40:25,353
going to become
1086
00:40:25,731 --> 00:40:27,805
absolutely indispensable to your clients.
1087
00:40:28,458 --> 00:40:29,972
There's a book. I pulled it up so
1088
00:40:30,052 --> 00:40:31,486
I can remember the author's name, but it's
1089
00:40:31,486 --> 00:40:33,797
called the boutique, how to start scale and
1090
00:40:33,797 --> 00:40:35,391
sell a professional service firm.
1091
00:40:36,122 --> 00:40:37,947
And it's by Greg, Alexander. And I would
1092
00:40:37,947 --> 00:40:39,692
highly recommend that's to your audience. It's a
1093
00:40:39,692 --> 00:40:41,833
great read. It'll help you gut check how
1094
00:40:41,833 --> 00:40:44,469
well about your doing as a company and
1095
00:40:44,469 --> 00:40:46,955
how well you could become the consultative
1096
00:40:47,885 --> 00:40:49,792
service if that was the direction you wanted
1097
00:40:49,792 --> 00:40:51,381
to go it's really valuable. That's cool.
1098
00:40:52,113 --> 00:40:53,786
And I think that in the beginning, this
1099
00:40:53,786 --> 00:40:57,134
was a lot harder, but as I grown
1100
00:40:57,134 --> 00:41:00,176
more experience, I'm getting better at, like, just
1101
00:41:00,176 --> 00:41:02,246
telling clients when I don't know thing. I'm
1102
00:41:02,246 --> 00:41:04,633
like, being vulnerable. I just be... You know,
1103
00:41:04,713 --> 00:41:06,384
if these, I think sometimes, like, we're so
1104
00:41:06,384 --> 00:41:08,135
eager for the sale and to say yes
1105
00:41:08,135 --> 00:41:08,874
to everything.
1106
00:41:09,503 --> 00:41:11,409
And, like, you know, I was on a
1107
00:41:11,409 --> 00:41:12,839
call yesterday with the client, and I was
1108
00:41:12,839 --> 00:41:14,904
like, I think, you know, we're looking at
1109
00:41:14,904 --> 00:41:16,492
website analytics. So and they're like, where is
1110
00:41:16,492 --> 00:41:18,500
this thing and I'm like, I don't know,
1111
00:41:18,820 --> 00:41:19,780
actually, like,
1112
00:41:21,300 --> 00:41:23,539
I was like, yeah. I have some experience
1113
00:41:23,539 --> 00:41:25,140
with the software, but not a ton.
1114
00:41:25,619 --> 00:41:26,180
You know.
1115
00:41:27,074 --> 00:41:28,988
Totally. Right? Some of that's getting older too.
1116
00:41:29,148 --> 00:41:30,264
I'm just like, you know what? I have
1117
00:41:30,264 --> 00:41:30,823
human limits.
1118
00:41:32,737 --> 00:41:34,890
Yeah. There's there's only so much of her
1119
00:41:34,890 --> 00:41:35,369
in do.
1120
00:41:36,166 --> 00:41:36,565
Exactly.
1121
00:41:37,138 --> 00:41:39,364
On, that's relationship building too. I think that
1122
00:41:39,364 --> 00:41:42,146
people appreciate when someone's not just saying that
1123
00:41:42,146 --> 00:41:44,133
we know everything and we're gonna knock everything
1124
00:41:44,133 --> 00:41:46,215
out of the park. Yeah. We're humans too
1125
00:41:46,215 --> 00:41:46,454
damn.
1126
00:41:49,077 --> 00:41:49,633
I'm low.
1127
00:41:50,189 --> 00:41:52,279
Oh, here's a good question. What does an
1128
00:41:52,335 --> 00:41:54,337
agency need to do to scale up or
1129
00:41:54,337 --> 00:41:56,324
scale down? What is, you know, how do
1130
00:41:56,324 --> 00:41:58,311
you look at scalability? What are the, you
1131
00:41:58,311 --> 00:42:00,536
know, what are the important things that agencies
1132
00:42:00,536 --> 00:42:01,195
need to
1133
00:42:02,062 --> 00:42:03,654
I I saw every recent pull and it
1134
00:42:03,654 --> 00:42:06,598
was, like, 80 percent or 82 percent of
1135
00:42:06,598 --> 00:42:09,145
digital agencies are, like, on the smaller side
1136
00:42:09,145 --> 00:42:11,157
under 30 people, and there's a sort of
1137
00:42:11,547 --> 00:42:12,286
issued. So
1138
00:42:12,740 --> 00:42:14,968
what happens and what I noticed is that
1139
00:42:14,968 --> 00:42:17,195
when you get past this size of like,
1140
00:42:17,354 --> 00:42:18,805
it's like, 24 to 30,
1141
00:42:19,204 --> 00:42:21,525
you start hitting this called dis economies of
1142
00:42:21,525 --> 00:42:24,565
scale. So your margins can't actually compete with
1143
00:42:24,565 --> 00:42:26,500
the level of you all this strip craft
1144
00:42:26,500 --> 00:42:28,500
in terms of middle management. And it's the
1145
00:42:28,500 --> 00:42:30,500
thing that happens when the companies become enterprise.
1146
00:42:30,739 --> 00:42:32,840
They start growing and they get into this
1147
00:42:32,980 --> 00:42:33,480
uncomfortable
1148
00:42:33,874 --> 00:42:36,186
growth zone. So for scalability, it's not that
1149
00:42:36,266 --> 00:42:38,739
I'm saying don't do that. Like, absolutely. Just
1150
00:42:38,739 --> 00:42:41,450
be mindful that again, all your processes are
1151
00:42:41,450 --> 00:42:43,878
gonna break as you double in size. And
1152
00:42:44,092 --> 00:42:46,394
you're going to have to start going into
1153
00:42:46,394 --> 00:42:48,299
something larger client sizes,
1154
00:42:48,695 --> 00:42:50,545
if you wanna hit that, like, middle
1155
00:42:50,934 --> 00:42:53,342
this middle size 30 to a hundred because
1156
00:42:53,559 --> 00:42:56,025
you can't serve it. Like, the speed at
1157
00:42:56,025 --> 00:42:58,268
which you have to service. Those clients with
1158
00:42:58,268 --> 00:42:59,943
the budgets that are on the smaller side
1159
00:42:59,943 --> 00:43:02,335
when you're growing? It's it's almost on ton
1160
00:43:02,335 --> 00:43:04,409
of. It's like, what do you wanna do
1161
00:43:04,409 --> 00:43:06,483
then? Because you either have to push through
1162
00:43:06,483 --> 00:43:08,490
to the other side, or you're gonna have
1163
00:43:08,490 --> 00:43:10,662
to shrink down and that's going to require
1164
00:43:10,879 --> 00:43:13,188
getting really honest about the size of clients
1165
00:43:13,188 --> 00:43:15,099
you wanna work with, the type of work
1166
00:43:15,099 --> 00:43:16,077
you wanna deliver
1167
00:43:16,469 --> 00:43:18,630
again with the stuff you're about with maybe
1168
00:43:18,630 --> 00:43:19,909
more boutique approach,
1169
00:43:20,630 --> 00:43:22,230
you don't wanna create a situation where you're
1170
00:43:22,230 --> 00:43:23,289
you're gonna jeopardize
1171
00:43:24,164 --> 00:43:26,885
the subject matter ex expertise that you have.
1172
00:43:27,125 --> 00:43:27,364
Right?
1173
00:43:27,925 --> 00:43:29,525
So I think first of all, it's, like,
1174
00:43:29,684 --> 00:43:30,244
just vetting,
1175
00:43:30,804 --> 00:43:31,844
what do you want?
1176
00:43:32,338 --> 00:43:34,559
As an owner, what do you actually dream
1177
00:43:34,559 --> 00:43:37,255
and desire with your organization? Because you're gonna
1178
00:43:37,255 --> 00:43:38,231
have to get creative
1179
00:43:38,763 --> 00:43:39,873
in terms of that growth?
1180
00:43:40,525 --> 00:43:43,405
And so from a practical pragmatic standpoint. Right?
1181
00:43:43,565 --> 00:43:45,344
Like, you can install
1182
00:43:45,644 --> 00:43:47,484
install, like, a digital project manager, say you're,
1183
00:43:47,644 --> 00:43:49,824
like, under... I'd say between
1184
00:43:50,217 --> 00:43:52,286
5 and 7 pee when you wanna start
1185
00:43:52,286 --> 00:43:54,831
hiring that first dedicated Pm roll course. Right?
1186
00:43:54,990 --> 00:43:56,661
You you should get a uncomfortable after that.
1187
00:43:57,153 --> 00:43:58,510
And then when you start hitting your, like,
1188
00:43:58,669 --> 00:44:00,684
12 to 15 people
1189
00:44:01,381 --> 00:44:02,817
up and around there, you're starting to look
1190
00:44:02,817 --> 00:44:03,715
at that middle
1191
00:44:04,093 --> 00:44:06,406
director layer or you're moving into that senior
1192
00:44:06,406 --> 00:44:07,697
to direct their level there.
1193
00:44:08,733 --> 00:44:12,081
Your direct of either operations and or projects.
1194
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:14,552
Sometimes they're doubling. They're doing a half and
1195
00:44:14,552 --> 00:44:14,951
half roll.
1196
00:44:15,684 --> 00:44:17,679
You can take, like, a senior leader that
1197
00:44:17,679 --> 00:44:20,152
you have senior Pm, and you can grow
1198
00:44:20,152 --> 00:44:21,291
them into
1199
00:44:21,907 --> 00:44:25,034
director level role. However, you're also going to
1200
00:44:25,034 --> 00:44:26,948
have to make sure that they're aware of
1201
00:44:26,948 --> 00:44:27,448
systems
1202
00:44:27,905 --> 00:44:29,819
because they cannot operate just by being, like,
1203
00:44:30,139 --> 00:44:32,792
I'm really good at running and leading projects
1204
00:44:33,263 --> 00:44:35,829
because there's also okay. How do you now
1205
00:44:36,601 --> 00:44:38,746
how do you support and grow your,
1206
00:44:39,462 --> 00:44:41,846
team relationships? What does it take to look
1207
00:44:41,846 --> 00:44:44,833
at an objective measurement for
1208
00:44:45,210 --> 00:44:47,922
team and individual success. Project managers,
1209
00:44:49,119 --> 00:44:51,511
they aren't managers of people, they're managers of
1210
00:44:51,511 --> 00:44:52,011
projects
1211
00:44:52,324 --> 00:44:54,644
they don't have direct reports. So that's a
1212
00:44:54,644 --> 00:44:57,125
switch. Hey, that's a change in terms of
1213
00:44:57,125 --> 00:44:59,444
what the focus of those roles becomes And
1214
00:44:59,525 --> 00:45:01,213
I think I've seen a lot of folks
1215
00:45:01,213 --> 00:45:02,807
getting into hot water over that when they're
1216
00:45:02,807 --> 00:45:03,307
not
1217
00:45:03,683 --> 00:45:05,993
intentional about that kind of scaling.
1218
00:45:06,710 --> 00:45:08,780
So that's a couple ideas there, but we
1219
00:45:08,780 --> 00:45:11,185
can deep dive review. I think that that
1220
00:45:11,185 --> 00:45:13,734
sort of not just project management, but project
1221
00:45:13,734 --> 00:45:16,362
management leadership is very important having that sort
1222
00:45:16,362 --> 00:45:17,738
of high level view
1223
00:45:18,289 --> 00:45:20,124
What are the systems? What is our philosophy?
1224
00:45:21,241 --> 00:45:23,555
What are our goal? How are we continuing
1225
00:45:23,555 --> 00:45:24,991
to get revenue from these clients?
1226
00:45:26,041 --> 00:45:28,822
Create better relationships and stuff like that. Absolutely.
1227
00:45:29,776 --> 00:45:32,080
It's so vital to know. Right? As you
1228
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:33,670
as you are trying to do that growth
1229
00:45:33,670 --> 00:45:36,952
and or just the care intentional of being
1230
00:45:36,952 --> 00:45:38,627
the size but being the right size for
1231
00:45:38,627 --> 00:45:40,621
the clients that you want. So I feel
1232
00:45:40,621 --> 00:45:42,057
like we've been talking about this the whole
1233
00:45:42,057 --> 00:45:43,971
time, but maybe you have something to add
1234
00:45:43,971 --> 00:45:44,210
to it.
1235
00:45:45,101 --> 00:45:47,248
What trends do you see sort of shaping
1236
00:45:47,248 --> 00:45:49,475
the future of the creative services?
1237
00:45:51,384 --> 00:45:53,387
Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of change
1238
00:45:53,387 --> 00:45:55,529
happening right now. Right? Like, right now, what
1239
00:45:55,529 --> 00:45:56,005
we're seeing,
1240
00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:59,282
a lot of the digital agencies are experiencing
1241
00:45:59,337 --> 00:46:01,241
these... They're trying to catch up from the
1242
00:46:01,241 --> 00:46:03,478
cash flow crunch that we just experienced with,
1243
00:46:03,637 --> 00:46:05,700
like, this downturn. Right? I I know it's,
1244
00:46:05,780 --> 00:46:07,843
like, no one's actually officially calling it. But
1245
00:46:07,843 --> 00:46:09,906
it's like, who had not experienced this?
1246
00:46:10,716 --> 00:46:11,909
On average, I'm seeing, like,
1247
00:46:12,625 --> 00:46:15,728
the pipelines are taking... It's taking, like, 50
1248
00:46:15,728 --> 00:46:16,841
percent longer to close.
1249
00:46:17,334 --> 00:46:19,010
Is taking up to a year to close
1250
00:46:19,010 --> 00:46:20,766
on enterprise level clients,
1251
00:46:21,325 --> 00:46:23,480
which is wild. Right? When you think about
1252
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:25,896
that. So I think, like, you're seeing
1253
00:46:26,208 --> 00:46:28,113
It might feel like he on the client
1254
00:46:28,113 --> 00:46:30,494
side, I think it's intentional. I think what's
1255
00:46:30,494 --> 00:46:32,795
happening is that new business as usual is
1256
00:46:32,795 --> 00:46:35,193
that there gonna be more mindful and pay
1257
00:46:35,193 --> 00:46:37,578
more attention to where are we headed it?
1258
00:46:37,816 --> 00:46:39,270
We have to stay profitable.
1259
00:46:39,882 --> 00:46:41,472
When you're seeing this all soft, all of
1260
00:46:41,472 --> 00:46:42,187
these things happening.
1261
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:44,920
We have to be more mindful about growth,
1262
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:47,400
because I don't think, like, I don't think
1263
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:49,180
better growth is the answer for any,
1264
00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:50,219
especially
1265
00:46:50,519 --> 00:46:50,894
agents
1266
00:46:51,493 --> 00:46:53,805
I think you're gonna start seeing a lot
1267
00:46:53,805 --> 00:46:54,465
of folks
1268
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:57,234
managing several different hats,
1269
00:46:58,191 --> 00:47:01,471
using the tools of Ai 2 augment their
1270
00:47:01,471 --> 00:47:04,570
existing roles. I do think they'll probably be
1271
00:47:04,570 --> 00:47:05,706
more agencies
1272
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:08,702
shrinking because they're being intentional about that.
1273
00:47:09,752 --> 00:47:12,461
Being able to deliver more value to clients.
1274
00:47:12,620 --> 00:47:14,373
But I think they also... You're gonna see
1275
00:47:14,373 --> 00:47:15,648
this... What are they calling at the great
1276
00:47:15,648 --> 00:47:17,241
tired or whatever what we're were talking about
1277
00:47:17,241 --> 00:47:19,088
just people. People are burnt out. Right?
1278
00:47:19,802 --> 00:47:21,786
We have to take care of our teams
1279
00:47:21,786 --> 00:47:24,880
and our workers? And unless everybody going overseas
1280
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:27,285
and outsourcing. How are we gonna support
1281
00:47:27,833 --> 00:47:30,784
local economies that where rent to mortgages are
1282
00:47:30,784 --> 00:47:33,574
una unavoidable. We we have to balance that.
1283
00:47:34,053 --> 00:47:36,148
So I I think it's going to be
1284
00:47:36,778 --> 00:47:38,073
extremely specialized
1285
00:47:38,606 --> 00:47:41,230
focuses on types of clients, types of service
1286
00:47:41,230 --> 00:47:41,706
offerings.
1287
00:47:42,342 --> 00:47:44,989
I I think that's gonna happen because general,
1288
00:47:45,363 --> 00:47:46,914
I don't see as
1289
00:47:47,771 --> 00:47:50,964
necessarily long term, like, people people have very
1290
00:47:50,964 --> 00:47:52,561
strong feelings and opinions as well others. I'm
1291
00:47:52,561 --> 00:47:54,317
not seeing specializing in terms of the industry,
1292
00:47:54,397 --> 00:47:56,723
but just specializing in terms craft and get
1293
00:47:56,723 --> 00:47:58,018
really good at what you're doing
1294
00:47:58,712 --> 00:48:00,223
with the clients that you have, and then
1295
00:48:00,223 --> 00:48:02,234
be willing to explore
1296
00:48:02,704 --> 00:48:05,647
for your own revenue as an agency, opportunities
1297
00:48:05,647 --> 00:48:07,635
go in weird directions that you might not
1298
00:48:07,635 --> 00:48:09,067
have even thought before.
1299
00:48:10,750 --> 00:48:12,020
When you meet a client, you're like, this
1300
00:48:12,020 --> 00:48:14,321
is something that I should not say no
1301
00:48:14,321 --> 00:48:15,036
to. Yeah.
1302
00:48:16,147 --> 00:48:17,282
From a project management
1303
00:48:17,655 --> 00:48:17,972
perspective,
1304
00:48:18,704 --> 00:48:21,045
any tools that you love that you would
1305
00:48:21,184 --> 00:48:22,065
recommend? Yeah.
1306
00:48:22,704 --> 00:48:24,224
I mean... Okay. So I'll say this with
1307
00:48:24,224 --> 00:48:25,904
a caveat. I don't recommend this tool for
1308
00:48:25,904 --> 00:48:28,389
everyone because it is so blank Canvas, but
1309
00:48:28,389 --> 00:48:30,453
notion has been an absolute life saver for
1310
00:48:30,453 --> 00:48:32,121
us in terms of using it as, like,
1311
00:48:32,439 --> 00:48:33,710
our company manuals,
1312
00:48:34,107 --> 00:48:34,607
Sop,
1313
00:48:35,314 --> 00:48:37,305
we use it for project management. We use
1314
00:48:37,305 --> 00:48:39,376
it for teaching because you can do in
1315
00:48:39,376 --> 00:48:41,846
line in real time, like, interactive work together.
1316
00:48:42,005 --> 00:48:43,997
So creative work would work really well for
1317
00:48:43,997 --> 00:48:47,519
agencies Honestly, it become a Crm, a Crm.
1318
00:48:47,758 --> 00:48:49,990
Like, it's pretty much started to take over,
1319
00:48:50,309 --> 00:48:51,823
but I don't recommend it for everyone because
1320
00:48:51,823 --> 00:48:52,722
it is so
1321
00:48:53,114 --> 00:48:54,709
you've gotta know it. You gotta learn it.
1322
00:48:54,869 --> 00:48:57,501
It's just, like creating from nothing Right? You
1323
00:48:57,501 --> 00:48:58,218
make anything.
1324
00:48:58,697 --> 00:49:00,611
I would recommend Gina as a tool for
1325
00:49:00,611 --> 00:49:01,967
sure. I've heard a lot of good things
1326
00:49:01,967 --> 00:49:03,976
about that product. I love now that we're
1327
00:49:03,976 --> 00:49:05,889
starting to get into, like, I don't know,
1328
00:49:06,527 --> 00:49:08,202
being as a user, being able to design
1329
00:49:08,202 --> 00:49:09,637
the experience as the tool that you want,
1330
00:49:09,796 --> 00:49:11,844
so just getting more... Like, I love things
1331
00:49:12,043 --> 00:49:14,112
this my partner traveling would would talk about
1332
00:49:14,112 --> 00:49:15,465
this too because he loves things where you
1333
00:49:15,465 --> 00:49:17,295
get to choose your font and, like, have,
1334
00:49:17,375 --> 00:49:20,001
like, a backup palette so that your interface
1335
00:49:20,001 --> 00:49:22,089
of what you're using. Could look like how
1336
00:49:22,089 --> 00:49:23,530
you want your brand to feel? Like, why
1337
00:49:23,530 --> 00:49:26,010
not. Right? Yeah. And just, like, continuity of
1338
00:49:26,010 --> 00:49:28,489
brand. So... Oh, my gosh. I met with
1339
00:49:28,489 --> 00:49:30,902
a agency owner over coffee, and he showed
1340
00:49:30,902 --> 00:49:33,615
me their dev agency, and they built the
1341
00:49:33,615 --> 00:49:34,434
most beautiful,
1342
00:49:34,972 --> 00:49:37,526
like, operating system for their whole agency. And
1343
00:49:37,605 --> 00:49:38,500
I was just like,
1344
00:49:39,299 --> 00:49:40,659
I was like, do you ever about selling
1345
00:49:40,659 --> 00:49:42,839
this? He was like, oh, I don't know
1346
00:49:43,059 --> 00:49:45,059
who knows. But, like, I was, like, dang.
1347
00:49:45,299 --> 00:49:47,552
This is Awesome. Can we bill ours?
1348
00:49:48,351 --> 00:49:50,987
I know. It's gonna get so neat. We're
1349
00:49:50,987 --> 00:49:52,585
gonna be able to do so many cool
1350
00:49:52,585 --> 00:49:55,237
things that felt impossible a couple years ago,
1351
00:49:55,477 --> 00:49:57,395
I'm really excited for that. Even though at
1352
00:49:57,395 --> 00:49:59,413
the same time, I still don't believe technology
1353
00:49:59,552 --> 00:50:01,630
solves most if not all of our problems.
1354
00:50:01,964 --> 00:50:04,204
But I think that the capacity if we
1355
00:50:04,204 --> 00:50:05,824
were able to focus on
1356
00:50:06,125 --> 00:50:08,125
long term sustainability to the human race, for
1357
00:50:08,125 --> 00:50:09,724
example. I think we could do some pretty
1358
00:50:09,724 --> 00:50:11,912
neat stuff Yeah. Absolutely.
1359
00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:13,797
Well,
1360
00:50:14,434 --> 00:50:16,342
gosh, it was amazing talking to you. I
1361
00:50:16,501 --> 00:50:18,825
I feel like I'm going to enjoy going
1362
00:50:18,825 --> 00:50:21,565
back and editing this podcast because... Yay
1363
00:50:22,025 --> 00:50:23,224
I think you shared a lot of really
1364
00:50:23,224 --> 00:50:25,385
valuable information. I know our listeners as well
1365
00:50:25,385 --> 00:50:27,475
as well. Thanks so much. It was so
1366
00:50:27,475 --> 00:50:29,070
nice to be on the show and, like
1367
00:50:29,070 --> 00:50:30,506
men, if you ever wanna do it again,
1368
00:50:30,746 --> 00:50:32,500
I there's so much fun stuff we can
1369
00:50:32,500 --> 00:50:34,414
talk about I love stuff.
1370
00:50:35,531 --> 00:50:36,581
Awesome. So
1371
00:50:37,215 --> 00:50:39,915
your website, louder than 10 dot com? Yes,
1372
00:50:40,074 --> 00:50:42,456
sir. Anything else people wanna reach out to
1373
00:50:42,456 --> 00:50:44,519
you follow ups should know? Yeah. Come and
1374
00:50:44,519 --> 00:50:46,525
check us out. We've got loads of resources
1375
00:50:46,525 --> 00:50:48,997
if you're in operations or project management or
1376
00:50:48,997 --> 00:50:51,788
even just looking at profitability and efficiency. That's
1377
00:50:51,788 --> 00:50:53,941
another area that we love to support folks
1378
00:50:53,941 --> 00:50:54,101
on.
1379
00:50:54,911 --> 00:50:57,215
We have some events coming up, but we're
1380
00:50:57,215 --> 00:50:59,200
kind of, gonna be announcing some things later
1381
00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:00,868
on. So just check this site out and
1382
00:51:01,186 --> 00:51:03,433
come and find us. I'm always down for
1383
00:51:03,568 --> 00:51:05,736
conversation. If you're a Pm who's just like,
1384
00:51:05,896 --> 00:51:08,370
I need support for his my community, we
1385
00:51:08,370 --> 00:51:10,525
got you. Awesome. Well, thanks so much for
1386
00:51:10,525 --> 00:51:12,441
coming on, Michelle. Yeah. Thank you.