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Hello and welcome to the Connected Technologies Podcast by Peak Technologies, where supply chain meets innovation.
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My name is Paul Norford, and in this series we'll explore how technology is reshaping the way critical operations run every day.
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From warehouses and delivery routes to inventory management through to retail and the customer experience.
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The pace of change across the supply chain and logistics landscape is accelerating.
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We'll be speaking to the people living that change firsthand.
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Supply chain leaders, IT specialists, and mobility experts who understand what digital transformation really looks like on the ground.
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Today we'll explore the technology trends that matter, the strategies that keep operations moving, and why the areas like data security and sustainability are fast becoming essential foundations for modern supply chains.
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You'll also hear the real stories, the challenges, the breakthroughs, and the partnerships that turn complex problems into smarter operations.
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We're well into 2026, and this is the year of RFID, right?
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Well, we know RFID has been around for decades.
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However, in this episode, we dive into the evolving world that is RFID, where we've moved well past the retail, manufacturing, parcel and postal scenarios, and we discuss how sustainable RFID is, how it lends itself to full end-to-end traceability and authenticity applications, as well as being a complementary technology.
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I'm joined by expert Kam Pancholi from Peak and Paul Freeman from Sato, and their combined experience brings a wealth of knowledge about RFID, which is reshaping various industries as we speak.
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Let's now dive into the Connected Technologies podcast by Peak Technology.
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I'm really, really pleased that these two gentlemen are here.
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I've been looking forward to this podcast for a while because, and you'll hear the story kind of why.
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It's all about RFID, but I'm really pleased that these two gentlemen are here.
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So, Kam, Paul, good to have you on the podcast.
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Kam, I'll start with you.
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Can you tell me your name, can you tell me who you work for and what you do, and how long you've been in the industry for, please?
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Yeah, Kam Pancholi, uh Business Development Director at Peak Technologies in our uh automation intelligence division in at Peak around five months.
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Prior to that, 15 years in RFID industry, providing end-to-end solutions to the likes of Matalan, Tesco, Asda, H&M.
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Plenty more.
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And we could talk about some of those uh later on.
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So thanks for having us.
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Thank you.
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We will be talking about those later on, Kam.
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We really will.
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And Paul, same question to you.
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Can you tell me who you are, who you work for, and how long you've been in the industry for, please?
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Yeah, thank you.
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Yeah, Paul Freeman, currently doing RFID pre-sales and solutions, been working with Sato, and Sato is an OEM printer manufacturer.
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I've been working here 23 years this year, done various hats within that.
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So tech support, media, RFID, product management, etc.
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So yeah, it's all good fun.
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I appreciate this is an audio only podcast, but it doesn't sound like you've been in the industry for 23 years, Paul.
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Yeah, I'll refrain from commenting.
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Good stuff.
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All right, I can vouch for him.
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Yeah, we've been in the industry a long time.
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Yeah, right, right, okay.
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Uh Kam, I'll start with you first.
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Now, we all know this is the year of RFID, right?
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So I know that RFID, the technology itself, has been around for year for years and years.
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But this is the year of RFID, 2026, and you can put me down as you know, quoting saying that this is the year of RFID.
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We say that every year, but this is going to be the year, Kam.
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So it is that your view as well?
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Uh definitely not.
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If I look back at my sorry, yeah.
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When I speak to a lot of people, they'd say this is the year of the RFID.
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But if you look at so I sat around 15 years ago, because some of the customers, and I'll name some names, just not they're not uh industry secrets or anything, anything.
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So at that point, Tesco were doing RFID.
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Okay, so they've been doing it since when they had Windows devices.
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Okay.
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Before that, Marks and Spencer's, Decathlon, Inditex, they've been doing this for over 20 years, and that's why they're so successful having stores all over the world and making good profit.
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So use cases have changed over time, hardware's changed, times have changed, uh, prices come down, but there is a lot to go after and a lot of mature, mature customers, a lot, a lot of best practice to learn from.
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So what we're seeing now is as well as retail, which started first, we're seeing a lot of different industries, such as manufacturing or in pharmaceuticals.
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And I think Paul will mention some of those that he's working with.
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So on a weekly basis here at Peak, we're getting inquiries or we're working on projects in postal services, you know, managing parcels or managing healthcare or managing production of batches or production lines.
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So so yeah, sorry to uh kill your line about this is the year of RFID.
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You know, it's uh it's been going for a while, and and there's only more there's more and more, especially when there's gonna be some more mandates and regulations coming in.
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And I think there's a whole section we'll talk about that.
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So yeah.
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I think you completely burst my bubble there, actually, Kam.
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So uh yeah, it's great to have you on the podcast, mate.
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Really, really appreciate that.
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So actually, Kam, you you mentioned tags, and Paul, this is where I want to kind of bring you in.
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So obviously, Sato, you have Sato printers, there's all sorts of things that you do with regard to RFID, but obviously not just that.
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But kind of talk me through kind of how a tag is made and the types of RFID tags that you can get.
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Because obviously, you know, we've we've shopped at some of us who shopped at Decathlon, we've shopped in Tesco and Marks and Spencer Kam, as you said, and you know, tags look very, very different.
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So, you know, kind of talk me through the kind of types of tags that you could potentially get.
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Yeah, there's as you probably appreciate, there's hundreds and hundreds of different permutations out there, whether that's the antenna design, so I what we'd look at either the shiny silver bit, but the the key factors as well is like the little black dot that holds your data, right?
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Now, when you look at an inlay, a tag, there's multiple names for it as well.
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It's what frequency, you know, is it HF, is it UHF, is it hybrid role where you might have HF or NFC and a UHF.
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So, what we try and do here is obviously work with the customer, work with the partner, try and really understand their endpoint, the pain points, and go, what is the best inlay or label that you need to solve your pain?
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Okay, whether that's just a KPI, and we'll touch on this, I think, as we go on later.
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But there's a lot to do with the how do you program it, angle of read, type of reader, distance of read, the product you apply it to.
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So there's a lot of factors that we really need to consider before we've even actually put that label through a printer.
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Now, the stuff that we obviously manufacture is all tuned and optimized around the Sato offering.
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So we know we've got the accuracy, we know we've got the performance, and we know there should be minimal errors which accompany the quality of the the printer units we we obviously manufacture.
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Mm-hmm.
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Mm-hmm.
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Absolutely.
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Uh now, Kam, you mentioned that let's take Decathlon as an example.
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Retail apparel, there are RFID tags that you can put inside a label, inside a polo shirt or whatever.
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You're also also seeing RFID tags being put into high value items.
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UK store, for example, that does lots of bags and things like that.
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There are tags that are put into those and they're all different kinds of shapes and sizes.
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But I want to come back to one thing that you alluded to, which was the different industries that RFID can now plug into.
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So apparel is one.
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What other industries could RFID tags get attached to?
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Yeah.
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So if I take um again, UPS, again, this is not this, not it's all in the public domain.
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So they're doing so if you imagine how many parcels they scan worldwide.
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Millions.
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Billions and billions.
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So all that is manual, it's prone to error.
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So they've invested in RFID.
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They were putting labels on anyway, but now there's gonna have an RFID label.
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So when it passes through a tunnel or a read point or an exit or into a van, whichever, it will be read automatically.
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So for them, that's eliminated a lot of resource, but also accurate tracking of that parcel.
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And then if you're an end user or a customer and you're expecting your parcel, you can track it all the way all the way through accurately, knowing exactly where it is.
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So that's just one of the industries that we're seeing a big growth.
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So look, when they've started the other carriers or couriers or packaging companies are following suit, okay, because they're saying they're doing it and they're gonna go ahead in the market, but we need to be doing something similar.
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So we're seeing that as a as a big growth area, okay.
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So transport logistics and parcels is is is big.
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Um then we're seeing more and more in pharmaceuticals, uh, healthcare, and again, yeah, because you've got patient administration, you've got health, well-being, you've got actual manufacturing of life critical medicines.
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Okay.
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They maybe temperature uh, you know, have to be regulated.
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So there's a lot of new use cases we're seeing where everything was being tracked before by barcode, but now RFID labels are being applied more and more, and that whole work f workflow is being improved.
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Then there's food, there's food is a new one that's coming up.
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But again, we'll talk about some of the new industries which have not really touched RFID before, but now with the advancement of the tags and you know the readers and the s size of the tags, there's more and more to you know, to reduce waste.
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Yeah.
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Would you how how would you how would you put an RFID tag in food?
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So it's on the packaging, and if you imagine if you had an RFID label and it's got electronics in it, if you put that in a microwave, it would explode, okay?
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Yeah, that's that's obviously not thing to do.
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And not everyone reads instructions, okay, to say please do not take this and put this, you know, take this off.
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No one so all those advancements and all those testing that has been done on food, there's there's the standards bodies, and not everyone can produce a type and put it on a food label.
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Food so there's different types and different standards having to be adhered, whether it's clothing or whether it's electronics or whether it's batteries, there are different rules and regulations.
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Um again for the circularity as well.
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Okay, not just food waste at the beginning, but also what happens with that item or merchandise.
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So that's what we're finding more and more.
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Yeah.
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So several different verticals.
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Obviously, the ones that we know of and that we see are quite prolific, certainly apparel, so clothing, retail bags, famous London store, very high-end bags that they would have put RFID tags in.
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So there's a security piece as well.
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Also complete visibility end-to-end where you can see where your package or parcel is, for example.
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So that was one of the verticals that you mentioned, Kam.
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Paul, at this point, there's other verticals that RFID tags play in.
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And Kam was really quick to mention things like security.
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And I want to I want to bring that up.
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So I don't know, walk me through an example from taking a tag from when it's first made all the way through to to when the tag is kind of ended.
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So kind of birth to death.
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Though that I don't I don't want to use that death term.
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So let's say recycle.
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Let's say birth to recycle.
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Yeah.
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Or or end of cycle, maybe.
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Sure, sure.
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So typically, obviously, each RFID label, the closer you can get back to source tagging, as we call it, or supplier tagging or raw material, the more data you're gonna get.
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Okay, the more analytical data you're gonna get, which is gonna be more powerful for whether it's suppliers, supply chain, manufacturers.
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Obviously, it's gonna give you key touch points because then you know exactly what is where, when, you know exactly what's in the supply chain, visibility, and that can link onto whether it's for loss prevention, anti-counterfeiting, you know, and it can drive other standards because things that we're seeing coming through, especially like digital product passports, gonna make you drive back towards that source tagging.
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So if you send the data down, you do print and encode, and with the intelligence that Sato have got called AEP, so Application Enable Printing, we can actually print encode and then upload the the SKU, the RFID data, whether it's the EPC, the TID, the printer, serial number, IP back into like the peak technologies host system.
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Now you know that label, the minute it's come out or the second it's come out the front of the printer, it's now live in a system somewhere.
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So that tag has been birthed or born.
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And this is this is at this is done at source, right?
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So if you've got a bag of raw materials, it's then coded, it's printed.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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You make your t-shirt, you can either apply it there or embed it into the t-shirt at that point.
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You could do it then.
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So if you've got multiple suppliers globally, so if we step back and we use retail as an example, multiple suppliers, different locations across the world, you can also then get visibility of what suppliers borne each tag with its unique identification into your system.
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Right, got it.
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Okay.
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And then from that, your touch point obviously generally it will come into some sort of distribution, whether that's dedicated distribution, whether that's a cross-docking where you process different from one side across.
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You might have a the equivalent of a GXO, a DHL, uh various other ones as well, who might just process within the DC different franchises, different brands, etc.
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So you can do a lot of retaking at that point, but that gives you a different touch point.
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And this will come down to are you in retail?
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Are you in healthcare?
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Are you transport and logistics?
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Are you manufacturing?
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Because at each touch point, that unique identification or unique data that's been pre-encoded is a different argument, okay?
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It's a different bit of analytics, it's a different power.
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So if we looked at retail, we might go, I want to know this is a white t-shirt.
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But in healthcare, I want to know the lot number, the batch number, the expiry date.
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It's all key unique data and each touch point as we go.
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And then obviously from distribution, do you go straight to store, as in retail bricks and mortar store, or do you actually go direct to consumer?
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So omnichannel, e-commerce, you know, things of this nature where you're just posting it out.
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So it's sector-driven, whole different touch points.
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But that data from time of when it's born and all the scan points can be really powerful, especially if you're shipping across the world.
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And if you build that in with other technologies such as uh BLE or you're bringing it in just doing hybrid systems with barcodes, you can really get a lot of power from them touch points.
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So are you suggesting then that you wouldn't just use RFID as a standalone technology, right?
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So I can I can get my whatever handheld scanner it is, I can wave it around in front of boxes, and then I, you know, I can do a stock count of whatever I'm counting.
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But are you suggesting that that you you wouldn't just use RFID technology in isolation?
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Yeah, correct.
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So we're finding now, you go back quite a few years, it I found it was quite siloed.
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People would use RFID or just barcode now.
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But we're finding a lot of it is hybrid systems where you might have 2D scanning at one point because the supplier might not be able to have the infrastructure for RFID.
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Right.
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But having that 2D that's linked to the RFID in some way, you might have an uh downstream scan point that uses the RFID and not the barcode.
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Yeah.
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In my old uh role where it was just apparel, it was just RFID.
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So if someone said, I want to do some asset tracking or I want to do some you know GPS tracking of the something at some you know, whatever m you know, vans or people or whatever, uh it was no bid, okay, because all we were focused on was RFID.
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Right.
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Here at Peak, as part of the Automation Intelligence Division, we walk into a business, whether it's a distribution centre or a factory or a store, whatever environment that is, and we'd walk around and say, you need RFID for that.
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Okay, you can use Bluetooth for that, you need machine vision for this, or you can stick with the barcode scanning on this because that works and there's no need to invest.
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So we walk through and we've got a wide range of eco-partners, best of breed, who are global, because the adoptions take place at a higher level with the big you know, big companies first, and then it goes down to other.
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So as you know, we work with SATO, we work with several large organizations who understand have got the systems in place, and have got the hardware and all the standards that go with it.
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Okay.
00:18:10.640 --> 00:18:13.839
So so yeah, it could be it will be a hybrid.
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Okay, we're not gonna go in, so we don't go in.
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So we've got software partners, hardware partners, and experts in all of these areas within our division, and within you know, we can leverage all our partner network.
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And just to add, just to sort of close that last little point, and this is where certainly the the power that the Sato OEM brings to support the likes of Peak and their system as well, and that's where a lot of our slogans you may see is called Sato Powered On Site because we do equivalent to what Kam alludes to, is go that extra bit of distance, you know, really tune into what the customer wants.
00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:52.079
And that could be as silly as what is your immediate pain points?
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Is there any conformance?
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Are you being driven down RFID or barcode because of standards?
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And I know we'll touch on that shortly, but that could be a driving factor of why people need to adopt these solutions or the technology.
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And off the back of that, where's the return on investment coming from?
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Now I appreciate that's a whole different probably podcast in its own, but that is some driving factors that collectively Sato and Peak actually look at at that real early stages is where are all the real benefits, where are the touch points, and also how do we collectively future proof the solution for the customer?
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A couple of things.
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It sounds like you're looking for an invite to get back onto the podcast, Paul and Kam.
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So um we'll
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More than happy!
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We'll put a pin in that one.
00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:44.079
We'll put a pin in that one.
00:19:44.079 --> 00:19:49.839
But it in all seriousness, come coming back to some of the things that you said, and and you've mentioned a number of different things.
00:19:49.839 --> 00:19:54.240
So clearly, RFID isn't just a standalone silo technology.
00:19:54.240 --> 00:20:00.240
Actually, you can use it in a complementary manner with other technologies, which is great.
00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:04.559
And a little bit like so, I I came from the consumer space.
00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:11.440
I spent a long time in mobile telephony and you know, kind of help build 2 and 3 G and 4G base stations.
00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:17.279
So understand the standards around GSM, the whole kind of global system for mobile communication.
00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:21.920
I know it's come from the French, but that's kind of colloquially as it's as it's known.
00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:24.240
So you you refer to standards.
00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:26.960
So obviously Bluetooth is a standard.
00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:38.640
Are you suggesting that RFID is also just the technology, but how the tags are also created, printed, and encoded, Paul?
00:20:38.880 --> 00:20:40.079
Yeah, yeah, correctly.
00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:50.000
So you've got when you look at the RFID world or spectrum, it obviously works off frequencies, whether that's HF frequency or UHF frequency.
00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:56.880
The RFID, if you like, label RFID is set between certain parameters.
00:20:56.880 --> 00:21:03.279
Normally about an 868 to a 928 megahertz, but it changes where you are geographically.
00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:09.039
So in Europe, you're closer to the 860 sort of um 868 megahertz.
00:21:09.039 --> 00:21:12.079
In say America, you might be closer to 917.
00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:26.960
So at the speccing of the inlay or label, whatever terminology you want to put on it, we need to be mindful of where your scan points are because what you don't want to do is have a, if you like a Europe spec label and try and read it in America or Asia, it's not quite going to work.
00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:31.440
But you can get global specification tags that will help.
00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:41.680
Now, the other thing that we need to be mindful of, if you apply that label to a product, you might get different performance in Europe than you will in America because of different hardware.
00:21:41.680 --> 00:21:57.440
This is where some of, especially in the RFID world, um, Rain Alliance, EPC, GS1 all help put guidance and standards down that a lot of the reader manufacturers will then look to conform to.
00:21:57.440 --> 00:21:59.759
But then on top of that, you've got things.
00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:03.440
Called tag data standards, air interface standard.
00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:09.759
So all of that sort of if you like first layer of how do I read, there's a whole heap of conformance.
00:22:09.759 --> 00:22:16.559
Then you get into different conformance or standards, which is what structure do I encode?
00:22:16.559 --> 00:22:25.039
Am I conforming to like a digital product passport, which is set structure, set layer, set amount of info?
00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:30.319
So there's multiple standards, but collectively we need to understand that from the customer.
00:22:31.039 --> 00:22:33.119
And actually, you raise a really good point there.
00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:36.559
So all of this almost has to be questioned up front.
00:22:36.559 --> 00:22:42.079
And again, to the points that both of you were making with regard to what's the customer pain point?
00:22:42.079 --> 00:22:43.680
What is it we're trying to solve?
00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:54.240
And if you can understand that, they may only be looking to deploy something regionally, let's say in Europe, or it may be global across Europe, Middle East, Africa, the States, you know, everywhere.
00:22:54.240 --> 00:22:57.759
So it's really good to make sure that we understand that kind of upfront.
00:22:58.079 --> 00:22:58.559
Absolutely.
00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:03.920
And also what you need to be mindful of is what's the value of the product we're tagging?
00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:04.640
Okay.
00:23:04.640 --> 00:23:07.680
It could be as simple as that as a starting question.
00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:16.319
Because we know labels, we know process, we know scanners, hardware, whatever it be, RFID or non-RFID, all has a price to it.
00:23:16.640 --> 00:23:17.200
Yes.
00:23:17.200 --> 00:23:18.559
Yes, absolutely.
00:23:19.039 --> 00:23:24.880
So you've got the standards as as Paul mentioned with GS1 and Rain Alliance.
00:23:24.880 --> 00:23:38.880
There is also Auburn University, the ARC standards, where any tag for any different vertical has it should go through the Auburn University where they test everything.
00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:49.119
So for folk apparel, it's a class um R for retail where they will put through 10 pairs of jeans or so many washes.
00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:52.559
They do all the testing and it has to conform.
00:23:52.559 --> 00:24:09.200
So then if you're a large retailer like um, so let's take H&M, for example, and they've got a billion tags, for example, all over the you know, four and a half thousand stores or whatever the number of stores are, all in different countries, not one manufacturer is going to make all those tags.
00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:09.680
Okay?
00:24:09.680 --> 00:24:14.480
It's gonna go to three or four different companies, it's gonna go to all the different factories.
00:24:14.480 --> 00:24:17.519
They will say it has to be this standard.
00:24:17.519 --> 00:24:18.079
Okay.
00:24:18.079 --> 00:24:26.160
Uh and it has to be a classification through Auburn University certified, you know, whatever the number code is.
00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:30.720
If you're doing general merchandise, there is another set of rules for that.
00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:42.000
If you're doing tyres or you're doing pharmaceuticals, they will have tested every tag by the large manufacturers to say what are the standards you need this to do.
00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:45.680
Heat, temperature, all of these things.
00:24:45.680 --> 00:24:53.440
And that is a better way because there's a lot of companies starting up on the RFID bandwagon saying I can make you a very low-cost tag.
00:24:53.440 --> 00:24:56.960
And it doesn't, it doesn't work properly.
00:24:56.960 --> 00:24:59.279
So because it's not been through the validation.
00:24:59.279 --> 00:25:04.240
And to get onto the Auburn University, you have to be a certified company.
00:25:04.240 --> 00:25:05.279
Okay.
00:25:05.279 --> 00:25:09.920
And if you if you pass all those tests, then you can be invited to a tender.
00:25:10.319 --> 00:25:10.480
Okay.
00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:12.640
So I think it's really good to have that standard.
00:25:13.039 --> 00:25:18.559
So actually, and I think you're absolutely spot on because it's not just a case of making the tag.
00:25:18.559 --> 00:25:22.000
You've got to be able to read the tag in all sorts of different conditions.
00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:30.559
So are you suggesting then, Ken, that the Auburn University are the equivalent of the BSI or UL type approvals?
00:25:30.799 --> 00:25:31.039
Yeah.
00:25:31.039 --> 00:25:32.240
Yeah, exactly.
00:25:32.240 --> 00:25:39.359
And and most companies, big retailers, go there first, okay, and say, we are trying to do RFID.
00:25:39.359 --> 00:25:41.920
What do you recommend in terms of the tags?
00:25:41.920 --> 00:25:51.440
And then they will get the guidance and and make sure that the tags that they're gonna spend are gonna work because these are big investments.
00:25:51.440 --> 00:25:53.440
And it and in retail it's ongoing.
00:25:53.440 --> 00:26:01.920
Because once that tag is gone and sold, then obviously every year it's a recurring, recurring uh expenditure.
00:26:01.920 --> 00:26:02.559
Okay.
00:26:02.559 --> 00:26:05.359
And every tag has to be read.
00:26:05.359 --> 00:26:09.920
If it's not read and it's not correct, then your inventory is it's it's not meaningful.
00:26:09.920 --> 00:26:10.559
Sure.
00:26:10.559 --> 00:26:26.960
So it's is it so that whole source tagging and all the things Paul mentioned about picking the right tag, making sure it's quality, make sure it's got quality control, all of those things right at the beginning are key to the use cases down the line.
00:26:28.559 --> 00:26:37.599
Paul, I I want to I want to ask you something, because I know that when we were kind of preparing for this, there was a a big question that came up around security.
00:26:37.599 --> 00:26:47.680
Now, of course, anything electronic that we make, it's open to counterfeiting, to issues with security and things like that.
00:26:47.680 --> 00:27:05.519
And of course, if you consider the whole supply chain, it's probably now the new next target for uh cybersecurity and bad actors looking to get in and potentially you know counterfeit products or counterfeit solutions.
00:27:05.519 --> 00:27:09.440
What things are in place for RFID technology?
00:27:09.759 --> 00:27:10.880
There's there's quite a lot.
00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:17.039
Now, there's obviously software security layers about how you manage your data, are you sat behind firewalls?
00:27:17.039 --> 00:27:20.079
You know, how what is there the data encrypted?
00:27:20.079 --> 00:27:25.920
Some misconceptions are that if I'm programming a tag, I'm putting critical data in there.
00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:30.160
So if we just quickly looked at healthcare, it's like patient demographic data.
00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:30.880
No, we're not.
00:27:30.880 --> 00:27:34.640
We're just putting, and I describe it as a key to a front door, okay?
00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:38.319
It's a key, you know it's a key, but I'm not telling you which front door it is.
00:27:38.319 --> 00:27:38.640
Okay.
00:27:38.640 --> 00:27:38.880
Right.
00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:40.880
So you haven't actually got that link.
00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:47.839
Now, outside of that, at the tag level or the chip level, the little black dot that holds your data, we can lock that.
00:27:47.839 --> 00:27:49.519
We can give it certain passwords.
00:27:49.519 --> 00:27:54.480
So at the label level, you've also got levels of security as well.
00:27:54.480 --> 00:28:10.480
Now, at the reader level, when you read the inlay, they do like a handshake, they have a communication, and there's security layers at that, which are all driven by the standards that we've already just touched on, whether that's tag standards, air interface standards, read standards.
00:28:10.480 --> 00:28:15.920
So that there's a lot of, if you like, micro layers that can make up a whole set of security.
00:28:15.920 --> 00:28:20.240
But then you've got the other flip side of are we using it for anti-anti-counterfeiting?
00:28:20.240 --> 00:28:23.200
So when it's scanned, am I going up to a secure database?
00:28:23.200 --> 00:28:24.720
Is this a genuine product?
00:28:24.720 --> 00:28:26.160
Is it a safe product?
00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:28.079
Is it right for the customer?
00:28:28.079 --> 00:28:30.160
You know, so there's all that.
00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:38.640
You can also build the RFID inlays into tamper evident labels, you know, like your peel-it-off warranty as void type labels.
00:28:38.640 --> 00:28:38.880
Yes.
00:28:38.880 --> 00:28:43.599
So you can put an inlay in there, so you've got that visual security deterrent.
00:28:43.599 --> 00:28:55.279
So multiple layers of security can be there, whether it's direct inlay, security, level as in, physical, remove it, it shows void or software.
00:28:56.559 --> 00:29:10.960
Some of the other tags, so if you take your um luxury bags like you mentioned earlier, if if a label was on show and get ripped off, then there's no proof that it's authentic or not.
00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:27.920
So what a lot of the luxury brands are doing, they're putting it inside a tag, inside inside the lining, so that when a a garment or or a bag is returned and someone says, I I paid 5,000 pounds, but I've got no receipt.
00:29:27.920 --> 00:29:28.160
Okay.
00:29:29.039 --> 00:29:30.000
That old chestnut.
00:29:30.559 --> 00:29:31.920
That old chestnut, yeah.
00:29:31.920 --> 00:29:40.640
So what they would do is they would put that bag on a reader and it would it would read if there's a tag in there, then it would read it.
00:29:40.640 --> 00:29:43.200
If it wasn't, they'd say, This is not a genuine.
00:29:43.200 --> 00:29:43.599
Right.
00:29:43.599 --> 00:29:46.319
Okay, because they they because it's not reading it.
00:29:46.319 --> 00:30:02.559
So and what we're also finding is more and more tags are now gonna be in the care label or a sew-in label, because when we mentioned earlier on, a life of a tag is you start in the source tagging and then it's end of life when it's ripped off.
00:30:02.559 --> 00:30:26.079
Going forward, it won't be ripped off because you'll want there will be a circularity uh and the DPP will, you know, you you as a as a supplier will need to provide evidence of where this was made, what materials you used, and then as a consumer, you might want to see, you know, is this ethically made?
00:30:26.079 --> 00:30:29.839
Just like you have a packet of crisps and it's got traffic lights, okay.
00:30:29.839 --> 00:30:35.839
You will be able to look and say, was this done made with the right materials in the right countries?
00:30:35.839 --> 00:30:40.400
And also what do I do with it when I finish with this garment?
00:30:40.400 --> 00:30:41.440
Can I resell it?
00:30:41.440 --> 00:30:43.599
Can I re- you know, can I put it on landfill?
00:30:43.599 --> 00:30:45.200
Can it be resold?
00:30:45.200 --> 00:30:49.119
Can it be, you know, there's lots of different things coming up with the DPP.
00:30:49.440 --> 00:30:58.640
Paul, just just before you chime in, I I want to come back to that in terms of the the whole the uh eco cycle of a particular tag.
00:30:58.640 --> 00:31:02.799
So we talked about the birth of a tag, and and Paul, I want to kind of bring you in at this point.
00:31:02.799 --> 00:31:04.160
Um, but I know you've got a point to make.
00:31:04.160 --> 00:31:08.319
Kam, can you just help me understand what DPP stands for, please?
00:31:08.559 --> 00:31:11.119
Yeah, so that's the digital product passport.
00:31:11.119 --> 00:31:19.519
The rules for EU have been delayed, but there is a timetable and it has moved quite a lot over the last few years.
00:31:19.519 --> 00:31:29.200
But I think the batteries are gonna be in 2027, okay, of how you do the batteries, how you dispose of them, where they're made, all the carbon footprint.
00:31:29.200 --> 00:31:42.240
There's a lot of things that manufacturers will need to provide to the governments, all to help with the landfills and the you know environment and resale and all these things.
00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:49.519
So um there is uh there's a timetable of batteries, and then there's metals and aluminium and steel.
00:31:49.519 --> 00:32:05.039
And for the textiles and apparel, that's 2028-2029, okay, where uh all manufacturers will need to put a QR code or an RFID label that stays with that garment and it doesn't get ripped off.
00:32:05.440 --> 00:32:13.279
And just very quickly, what can you just summarize the point of a digital product passport and what it's there for?
00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:34.960
Yeah, so the it's for the traceability of the merchandise, whether it's apparel, footwear, uh tyres, any of the products, there will have to be a traceability of what the materials, country of origin, carbon footprint, and then what happens when you finish with that merchandise.
00:32:34.960 --> 00:32:35.519
Right.
00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:37.039
Can you recycle it?
00:32:37.039 --> 00:32:38.559
Can you resell it?
00:32:38.559 --> 00:32:42.960
Can it be re you know, there's a lot of things in there depending on the industries, okay?
00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:43.359
Right.
00:32:43.359 --> 00:32:49.359
So that's what's happening, and the data will be held in an EU repository, okay?
00:32:49.359 --> 00:32:52.319
Not all the data, just the identifier.
00:32:52.319 --> 00:33:07.599
And each brand will have to have their own repository of their products that says this is a blue t this is a black t-shirt, it was made in Vietnam, this is the merchandise, and this is what you can do at the end of it.
00:33:07.849 --> 00:33:08.079
Right.
00:33:08.240 --> 00:33:21.279
You as a consumer will be able to scan a big QR code because that's what most people have on their phones, and it will have a link to the brand, and you should be able to see everything about that product.
00:33:21.279 --> 00:33:25.039
It was made in this country, it's been resold once.
00:33:25.039 --> 00:33:29.839
If it was a vintage product, you know, uh not vintage, uh a second user product.
00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:35.759
So if we go back to the handbag uh scenario, I bought it for 5,000, I sold it for 10,000.
00:33:35.759 --> 00:33:40.880
And this is the authentic authentication certificate, because that lives in the cloud as well.
00:33:40.880 --> 00:33:46.480
Okay, and then I might the next person might sell it to the third person for 15,000.
00:33:46.480 --> 00:33:52.880
And all that is going to be in a blockchain or in the cloud where you know that's authentic.
00:33:52.880 --> 00:34:00.240
So that it's a lot of traceability and recycling and end-of-life circularity.
00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:00.640
Okay?
00:34:01.119 --> 00:34:01.440
Got it.
00:34:01.440 --> 00:34:02.319
Yeah, got it.
00:34:02.319 --> 00:34:03.039
That's great.
00:34:03.039 --> 00:34:08.159
Paul, you had a couple of things to say around the previous topic that we were talking about.
00:34:08.480 --> 00:34:09.280
Yeah, please.
00:34:09.280 --> 00:34:14.800
Some of the latest chipsets that are coming out to the marketplace also have a security layer of a silent mode.
00:34:14.800 --> 00:34:22.400
So if it's genuine at a uh like I sell it at a point of sale, I put it on the reader, I can actually switch it to say go quiet.
00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:25.760
So if it's scanned anywhere else, it isn't recognised.
00:34:25.760 --> 00:34:34.559
You bring it back to that retailer, the retailer can send us, if you like, a special command to it, wake it back up, it comes re-visible in their environment.
00:34:34.559 --> 00:34:37.519
So that also adds a security layer as well.
00:34:37.760 --> 00:34:39.440
Why would you want to do that?
00:34:39.679 --> 00:34:48.239
Because it's designed to stop people buying it in one shop, taking it down the road to another shop, and trying to get a refund from someone else.
00:34:48.239 --> 00:34:59.519
You know, it's all to do around that anti-counterfeit side of it and to make sure it's a genuine label that's been supplied by a genuine, I don't know, let's say retailer.
00:34:59.840 --> 00:35:00.320
Right, right.
00:35:00.719 --> 00:35:02.000
But you do have some as well.
00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:15.920
And Kam did touch on this is if you break the tag, you can have some that set off silent alarms behind the scenes to the back-end system as well, to say if I'm in the changing room and a tag's been broke, set a silent alarm off.
00:35:15.920 --> 00:35:18.079
You can then warn a shop assistant on the floor.
00:35:18.079 --> 00:35:20.639
So these technologies are being built in.
00:35:21.119 --> 00:35:22.800
Wow, that's incredible.
00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:24.239
That's really good to know.
00:35:24.239 --> 00:35:24.800
Really good.
00:35:25.119 --> 00:35:30.559
This is where it's starting to go, and this is when, like we touched on, there's multiple security layers.
00:35:30.559 --> 00:35:32.079
Which one do you want?
00:35:33.760 --> 00:35:34.960
Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick.
00:35:35.440 --> 00:35:36.559
Right, okay, got it.
00:35:36.559 --> 00:35:43.599
Uh, Paul, uh there was a a piece around the whole circular economy, let's say, of RFID tags.
00:35:43.599 --> 00:35:52.320
I I know we referenced this a little bit earlier with the the birth to recycling of RFID tags and components.
00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:55.519
What does that kind of end-to-end eco chain look like?
00:35:55.519 --> 00:36:00.159
I mean, can you recycle RFID tags that have already been printed and encoded?
00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:01.440
Yes, yeah, you can.
00:36:01.440 --> 00:36:13.519
So there are um sustainable RFID labels, inlays out there that can go in general ways, can be you can even get compostable ones because they no longer have any harsh chemicals in it.
00:36:13.519 --> 00:36:23.039
Okay, we've still got to be mindful of the adhesive, you know, because if you want to apply a certain adhesive type to a certain product, you may still need some chemicals in there.
00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:28.320
So that's really where the the question comes around is what is the adhesive?
00:36:28.320 --> 00:36:41.039
But the rest of it might be polyester-free, synthetic free, you know, all FSC, so uh approved from a sourced paper mill, you know, the the chain of custody as they call it.
00:36:41.039 --> 00:36:47.840
So you can have all the label material from there, the inlays, the ICs can all be again sustainable.
00:36:47.840 --> 00:36:51.039
The main question is around that adhesive layer.
00:36:51.039 --> 00:36:52.079
But yeah, absolutely.
00:36:52.079 --> 00:37:01.280
So we can almost close that full cycle to tick some sustainability argument, some CO2 or carbon emission arguments as well.
00:37:02.400 --> 00:37:02.960
That is good.
00:37:03.280 --> 00:37:13.519
Just to add on that as well, and if you think about people, and Kam rightly alluded to this, was building them into the material or the clothing or a bag or even trainers.
00:37:13.519 --> 00:37:31.039
Now we're the inlays or the labels are being embedded in, they become life of the product now, and not, oh, I'm going to re-tag in six months' time, therefore you've got two tags going on that product, or maybe even three, you know, if it's being re-tagged in another few months' time.
00:37:31.039 --> 00:37:39.760
So by building it in, you've also got not only the security layer that we've touched on, but you've got a loyalty scheme now that you can associate it to as well.
00:37:39.760 --> 00:37:45.119
So you can see there's perks, but you've still got that sustainability argument because it's part of the product now.
00:37:45.920 --> 00:37:53.440
Yeah, and and that's becoming a much bigger focus, certainly, for products and things that we purchased.
00:37:53.440 --> 00:37:59.119
That, okay, it's great to have a new pair of trainers or a great t-shirt, but how is it sustainable?
00:37:59.119 --> 00:37:59.760
How is it made?
00:37:59.760 --> 00:38:01.039
We've and we've alluded to this.
00:38:01.039 --> 00:38:02.000
How's it made?
00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:04.480
Therefore, then how do I recycle it?
00:38:04.480 --> 00:38:06.239
How do I pass it on ethically?
00:38:06.559 --> 00:38:06.960
Absolutely.
00:38:06.960 --> 00:38:14.960
And this is how you can see now that source tagging key comes into play really heavily because you need to apply the label at that point.
00:38:14.960 --> 00:38:18.559
And then we link it to, for instance, the digital product passport.
00:38:18.559 --> 00:38:22.719
You can see now what cotton did I use, what transport, what link.
00:38:22.719 --> 00:38:24.320
Is it over 30 days old?
00:38:24.320 --> 00:38:25.360
Can I take it back?
00:38:25.360 --> 00:38:29.760
Or do you need a dynamic change of you can take it back, but you're not getting a refund?
00:38:29.760 --> 00:38:38.960
You know, there's all these touch points that now become very powerful because of almost the mandate that's come through, which is all for a good reason.
00:38:39.599 --> 00:38:48.719
Yes, and again, tying it back to the standards, but making sure that the standards are open enough such that we can use RFID RFID technology.
00:38:48.719 --> 00:38:50.639
I'm really having trouble saying that.
00:38:50.639 --> 00:39:00.719
That you can utilize RFID technology in collaboration with other technologies to be able to give you that full end-to-end visibility.
00:39:01.039 --> 00:39:15.760
And with that end-to-end part, and if we scanned whether it's a phone, because we know some phone manufacturers are looking to build RFID readers, the UHF ones, into the phone, so that will be coming through in the next few, shall we say, years.
00:39:15.760 --> 00:39:21.199
But if you then scan your product, you'll get information of how to, shall we say, recycle it?
00:39:21.199 --> 00:39:26.079
Are you going to have the option to put it on a third-party resale site?
00:39:26.079 --> 00:39:28.559
You know, so you can really close that loop.
00:39:28.559 --> 00:39:30.559
Now, that doesn't just stop at retail.
00:39:30.559 --> 00:39:44.079
That could be white goods, you know, it could be tables, it could be garden furniture, it could be anything that you want to make unique, whether it's medical instruments, you know, it's how do you safely either discard it?
00:39:44.079 --> 00:39:58.079
And if we looked at electrical goods, obviously we've got the electrical recycling parts that we could break that part down and put it back in to the raw material, you know, like when someone says donate your phone, we'll break it down, we'll use the key components.
00:39:58.079 --> 00:40:03.360
So if you could scan a product, get all that information, then that's got to be good for the world, right?
00:40:03.760 --> 00:40:04.239
Absolutely.
00:40:04.239 --> 00:40:05.360
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
00:40:05.599 --> 00:40:07.760
Really good ecology points there, Paul.
00:40:07.760 --> 00:40:17.760
Uh Kam, I've got a question with regard to what is the significant impact of RFID tags, particularly from a return on investment perspective?
00:40:17.760 --> 00:40:28.800
Because obviously we've spoken about the tags and we've spoken about retail a fair bit, but like what's what's that return on investment like if you're a warehouse or you're a 3 PL?
00:40:29.039 --> 00:40:30.639
What is what does that look like?
00:40:30.960 --> 00:40:41.039
Yeah, so most of the retail and most of the discussions we've had today have been about retail and in the stores and the ROI in the stores with accurate inventory and loss prevention.
00:40:41.039 --> 00:40:45.119
But we're seeing more and more deployments in the supply chain.
00:40:45.119 --> 00:40:45.599
Okay.
00:40:45.599 --> 00:40:48.960
So what am I getting from my factories from around the world?
00:40:48.960 --> 00:40:56.320
Because that's large volumes, no one was really checking anything because it was just not practical.
00:40:56.320 --> 00:41:06.800
Now, with the uh RFID readers, whether the fixed readers or the tunnels, when goods come in in the inbound, they're now going through a read point.
00:41:06.800 --> 00:41:10.719
So we will know against the supplier there should be 10,000 products.
00:41:10.719 --> 00:41:15.039
Okay, it might be 10,000 products, but they're the wrong colour and the wrong sizes.
00:41:15.039 --> 00:41:15.599
Okay.
00:41:15.599 --> 00:41:20.880
So then you've got the supplier compliance, and you can do chargebacks to your factories.
00:41:20.880 --> 00:41:23.519
And that way more and more retailers are doing that.
00:41:23.519 --> 00:41:32.400
And then when you go to the factories, they're putting in the RFID solutions to say to the to the brand owners, this is what you're getting at an item level.
00:41:32.400 --> 00:41:35.840
So it's gone all the way back on the supply chain.
00:41:35.840 --> 00:41:46.880
And as well as having invent accurate accuracy in your DCs, you're also getting chargebacks from your uh suppliers as well.
00:41:46.880 --> 00:41:50.880
So that's all adding to the to the to the ROI.
00:41:50.880 --> 00:41:52.960
And we're seeing a big shift on that.
00:41:52.960 --> 00:41:54.800
Uh more and more brands.
00:41:54.800 --> 00:41:57.519
Uh if they've got their own DCs, they're putting it in.
00:41:57.519 --> 00:42:08.480
If they've got the three PLs, as as uh Paul mentioned earlier on, they're all looking at using the technology because they've got a big DC and it may be with multiple brands.
00:42:08.480 --> 00:42:08.960
Okay.
00:42:08.960 --> 00:42:12.800
So they might be doing something for brand A or brand B or brand C.
00:42:12.800 --> 00:42:17.519
And if it's source tagged, let's make sure we we count it on inbound.
00:42:17.519 --> 00:42:22.480
And then within the inbound, within the DC, they might be picking and packing and outbound.
00:42:22.480 --> 00:42:25.599
So, yeah, a lot more in the supply chain now what we're seeing.
00:42:25.920 --> 00:42:47.039
And just to just to finish on that very quickly, is obviously if we touched on the um loosely about the birth of the tag, and if we're uploading that to say the Peak uh host system, you can almost create a virtual ASN to Advanced Shipping Note that the DC says, I now know I've got X amount of items to be received, and therefore the tunnel now becomes semi-automated or fully automated.
00:42:47.039 --> 00:42:57.280
Therefore, you just need an operative to take it off the palette, put it through the tunnel, you've got the comparison, and you can easily do a yep, green light, red light scenario as well.
00:42:57.280 --> 00:43:08.400
So that whole speed through the warehouse or from source tagging to warehouse and then through the warehouse increases as well because of good visibility for when that tag was born.
00:43:09.199 --> 00:43:09.840
Hugely.
00:43:09.840 --> 00:43:21.280
So this isn't just about the technology, it's not just about printing tags or encoding tags or putting it on a box or inside a garment or a pair of shoes or whatever.
00:43:21.280 --> 00:43:32.400
The whole knock-on effect to this really will improve the speed, the traceability, the visibility throughout a complete end-to-end supply chain.
00:43:32.400 --> 00:43:36.320
And it's virtually vertical agnostic, right?
00:43:36.800 --> 00:43:37.119
Yeah.
00:43:37.119 --> 00:43:57.599
And that touches on another point for the return on investment is obviously if you're faster from source tagging into your distribution, you've got more accurate data, you less stock holding because you're now not saying, Oh, I better order another two of them or three of them because I don't know actually where they are in the supply chain, or they hit the DC, but I can't find them.
00:43:57.599 --> 00:43:58.159
Right.
00:43:58.159 --> 00:44:06.719
So you can see you're you've got a Return on investment for almost doing nothing, just getting that tag, that source tagging alive and onto a system.
00:44:07.679 --> 00:44:12.559
So clearly, this isn't the year of RFID, kind of bringing it back full circle, Kam.
00:44:12.559 --> 00:44:13.840
And okay, you were right.
00:44:13.840 --> 00:44:15.280
So I'll I'll give you that, Kam.
00:44:15.280 --> 00:44:17.440
This clearly isn't the year of RFID.
00:44:17.440 --> 00:44:22.880
However, just in closing, and I I feel today's conversation has been really, really good and really insightful.
00:44:22.880 --> 00:44:25.840
So just in closing, Kam, I'll come to you first.
00:44:25.840 --> 00:44:38.400
If someone was thinking about deploying RFID or even improving the RFID systems that they have in place, what three things would you tell them to do?
00:44:39.280 --> 00:44:39.679
Yeah.
00:44:39.679 --> 00:44:42.639
So the technology works, okay?
00:44:42.639 --> 00:44:48.480
So don't try to think it's it's a technology, the hard the hardware has been improved, the tags have been improved.
00:44:48.480 --> 00:44:51.440
So that discussion for many years has gone away.
00:44:51.440 --> 00:44:55.760
Don't think the tag is expensive because that's one of the myths for many, many years.
00:44:55.760 --> 00:44:56.960
It's too expensive.
00:44:56.960 --> 00:44:58.480
Do the ROI.
00:44:58.480 --> 00:44:58.800
Okay?
00:44:58.800 --> 00:45:07.519
And there's enough data out there from all these retailers that need these different verticals to put the numbers in and you can you'll get an ROI.
00:45:07.519 --> 00:45:09.599
Just with the low-hanging fruit.
00:45:09.599 --> 00:45:13.920
That's the business, the pain points and the ROI.
00:45:13.920 --> 00:45:22.639
I would also, and what I'm seeing more and more is a lot of companies have got uh automation departments and transformation departments.
00:45:22.639 --> 00:45:28.079
Years ago we used to go to loss prevention because it was a security tag, and that's where RFID started.
00:45:28.079 --> 00:45:32.880
And it was hard to get past, then it was IT, then it was retail operations.
00:45:32.880 --> 00:45:42.639
But now most mature, sophisticated retailers or businesses have got a transformation department looking three years, five years.
00:45:42.639 --> 00:45:46.159
And and then within that they've got an automation department.
00:45:46.159 --> 00:45:54.719
There's enough experts out there and knowledge of people doing these sort of things already that they they know the best practices.
00:45:54.719 --> 00:45:57.119
So that's like that's the two.
00:45:57.119 --> 00:46:11.039
And also my third one is choose the a partner or partners who have been around for a while and still gonna be on that journey because there'll be a lot of consolidation in the industry and a lot of companies coming and going.
00:46:11.039 --> 00:46:19.360
But it this is a journey three, five, ten, fifteen years, and picking your your your right partners with the ecosystem.
00:46:19.840 --> 00:46:21.119
Yeah, absolutely.
00:46:21.119 --> 00:46:31.039
And and I remember as we were preparing for this, one of the things you had said was that you know not everybody stays in one company, people move around the industry, yeah, right.
00:46:31.039 --> 00:46:36.159
So actually, they don't leave that knowledge when they've exited that company.
00:46:36.159 --> 00:46:43.440
So actually, it is worth working with all sorts of people to bring a lot of this to life.
00:46:43.440 --> 00:46:49.280
And particularly what you were saying, you work in the Peak Technologies team that looks at kind of automation.
00:46:49.280 --> 00:46:56.480
So, you know, would someone pick the phone up to you and say, Kam, I heard your podcast on RFID, here's a pile of questions, can you help me?
00:46:56.480 --> 00:46:59.440
Like what what would what would they do in that scenario?
00:46:59.760 --> 00:47:00.000
Yeah.
00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:20.559
So we would qualify what industry they're in, what their pain points are, do the initial qualification, and then we'd really want to go onto site and see the the the operations in real life, the speed, the density, the surroundings, all of these things, and we can make recommendations on the different technologies that we use.
00:47:20.559 --> 00:47:46.800
But going back to your point about the people, there are so many people who have done RFID deployments, and when a new company wants to do an RFID deployment, they know now they can tap on to the knowledge for the advertised for these jobs, and and and we're seeing years ago it was difficult, you know, it was hard because the technology didn't quite work, or the the processes didn't work.
00:47:46.800 --> 00:47:51.760
It was, you know, it was i the early adopters had a lot pain, but they've done the hard work.
00:47:51.760 --> 00:47:56.320
Now they've just all reap the benefits of all the hard work everyone's done.
00:47:56.320 --> 00:48:03.199
And the people who go into these businesses, they already have a blue blueprint on how we should do a deployment.
00:48:03.199 --> 00:48:07.599
What is required at the end user's point to make this successful?
00:48:07.599 --> 00:48:13.280
And you know, that I've seen that more and more in the last few deployments I've done, which have been really refreshing.
00:48:13.280 --> 00:48:13.760
Yeah.
00:48:14.559 --> 00:48:15.199
Good to know.
00:48:15.280 --> 00:48:15.519
Yeah.
00:48:15.519 --> 00:48:19.760
Paul, obviously, you work for Sato, you work for a technology company.
00:48:19.760 --> 00:48:22.000
The same three questions to you.
00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:29.760
So if someone was looking at deploying RFID or looking at improving what they have, what three things would you tell them to do?
00:48:30.239 --> 00:48:37.199
I would um probably be in parallel with some of the stuff that Kam said, okay, we've obviously got to understand the pain point, right?
00:48:37.199 --> 00:48:39.199
Will RFID tick the pain point?
00:48:39.199 --> 00:48:41.199
Will it tick your process flow?
00:48:41.199 --> 00:48:49.119
You know, because obviously RFID, you don't want to introduce process, you want to take a process step out and make it semi-automated or fully automated.
00:48:49.119 --> 00:48:52.320
Also, will the technology actually stack up?
00:48:52.320 --> 00:48:55.519
And if so, how far through end-to-end?
00:48:55.519 --> 00:49:07.039
Okay, because you might find that if we looked at some of the healthcare and potentially some of the autoclave and some of the harsher chemicals, you might get to a point where you have to stop.
00:49:07.039 --> 00:49:11.039
And same as time manufacturing, before it gets pre-molded, you might have to stop.
00:49:11.039 --> 00:49:13.039
Do you re-tag it or is it that enough?
00:49:13.039 --> 00:49:14.960
So it's really understanding that journey.
00:49:14.960 --> 00:49:27.519
But one thing I would say is go to a trusted partner or an OEM or someone like Sato and Peak combined that brings that proven technology, the proven knowledge.
00:49:27.519 --> 00:49:34.400
We've been around, we've understood it, we've got a lot of experience in this of know what does work and what doesn't work.
00:49:34.400 --> 00:49:53.119
And also within the customer, try and build a small team from IT, brand protection, customer experience, supply chain operations, and that level and have a team across different departments because otherwise you're going to bounce around and you're not really then going to get a clear picture.
00:49:53.119 --> 00:50:00.719
So if a customer is looking at it, I'd say try and make a small team together from their multiple departments or multiple touch points.
00:50:02.719 --> 00:50:05.440
Yeah, I and that bit's really quite important.
00:50:05.440 --> 00:50:16.480
It's not just the technology, it's the integration of that technology across the organization through not just the technology itself, but also more importantly, the people.
00:50:16.480 --> 00:50:18.559
So love what you said there, Paul.
00:50:18.559 --> 00:50:19.599
Absolutely love it.
00:50:19.599 --> 00:50:26.719
So, really, just to kind of summarize, in terms of RFID, it's it's been out there, it's been out there for a long time.
00:50:26.719 --> 00:50:43.599
People know what's going on, it's mature, it's improved in terms of process, it's improved in terms of technology, but also just in terms of the people, dare I say, we've been there and bought the t-shirt and maybe sometimes recycled the t-shirt as well.
00:50:43.599 --> 00:50:44.320
Yeah.
00:50:44.320 --> 00:50:45.119
Yeah.
00:50:45.119 --> 00:50:45.599
Yep.
00:50:45.599 --> 00:50:46.239
Fantastic.
00:50:46.480 --> 00:50:48.320
And hides and hides some of the scars.
00:50:49.280 --> 00:50:58.000
And hid some of the scars! Absolutely! I couldn't agree more! Gentlemen, it's been wonderful to have you on the podcast.
00:50:58.000 --> 00:50:59.840
So, Kam, thank you so much for joining us.
00:50:59.840 --> 00:51:01.599
Paul, thank you so much for joining us again.
00:51:01.599 --> 00:51:12.159
I did say we'll put a pin in the map, maybe for getting you back on the podcast, but a little bit later on down the line, would you be both willing to come back on the podcast to talk a little bit more about RFID?
00:51:12.719 --> 00:51:13.280
Absolutely.
00:51:13.840 --> 00:51:14.239
It's been great.
00:51:14.239 --> 00:51:15.119
Yeah, it's been fun.
00:51:15.119 --> 00:51:16.960
It's been so thanks, Kam, thanks, Paul.
00:51:16.960 --> 00:51:18.960
It's been yeah, it's been great fun from our side.
00:51:18.960 --> 00:51:21.360
So absolutely welcome another opportunity.
00:51:21.760 --> 00:51:23.039
Absolute pleasure to have you both.
00:51:23.199 --> 00:51:25.280
Gentlemen, thank you so much for being on the podcast.
00:51:25.440 --> 00:51:26.320
Yeah, thank you.
00:51:26.800 --> 00:51:27.360
Bye-bye.
00:51:28.079 --> 00:51:31.199
So, is 2026 the year of RFID?
00:51:31.199 --> 00:51:33.280
Um, no, it would seem.
00:51:33.280 --> 00:51:36.320
However, that was never the interesting question, anyway.
00:51:36.320 --> 00:51:44.559
The interesting question is what happens when the technology stops being a retail story and starts being a full supply chain one?
00:51:44.559 --> 00:51:53.840
Hundreds of tag permutations using the correct industry standards and the right answers still start with the pain point, not the product.
00:51:53.840 --> 00:52:01.199
Data at every point in the chain, loss prevention, anti-counterfeiting, analytics that together actually tell you something.
00:52:01.199 --> 00:52:07.280
And the biggest takeaway from both Kam and Paul is that RFID doesn't replace the barcode.
00:52:07.280 --> 00:52:08.320
It compliments it.
00:52:08.320 --> 00:52:13.760
Essentially, hybrid is not a compromise, it's the direction of travel.
00:52:13.760 --> 00:52:23.199
A huge, huge thank you to both of my guests, Kam Pancholi and Paul Freeman, for bringing their many years of real-world experience to this conversation.
00:52:23.199 --> 00:52:29.840
The insights they shared from the trenches of actual implementation are exactly why we do this show.
00:52:29.840 --> 00:52:35.440
If today's discussion resonated with you, do consider subscribing so you don't miss out on what's coming next.
00:52:35.440 --> 00:52:40.719
If something we discussed sparked an idea for your own organization, please don't keep it to yourself.
00:52:40.719 --> 00:52:45.039
Do share this episode with a colleague who may be facing similar challenges.
00:52:45.039 --> 00:52:50.320
Better yet, reach out to us and tell us how you're applying these insights in your own world.
00:52:50.320 --> 00:52:54.719
Those stories often become our best future episodes.
00:52:54.719 --> 00:53:02.639
Thank you so much for listening and do catch up with us next time on the Connected Technologies podcast by Peak Technologies.
00:00:03.279 --> 00:00:10.320
Hello and welcome to the Connected Technologies Podcast by Peak Technologies, where supply chain meets innovation.
00:00:10.320 --> 00:00:18.559
My name is Paul Norford, and in this series we'll explore how technology is reshaping the way critical operations run every day.
00:00:18.559 --> 00:00:24.960
From warehouses and delivery routes to inventory management through to retail and the customer experience.
00:00:24.960 --> 00:00:29.760
The pace of change across the supply chain and logistics landscape is accelerating.
00:00:29.760 --> 00:00:33.759
We'll be speaking to the people living that change firsthand.
00:00:33.759 --> 00:00:42.479
Supply chain leaders, IT specialists, and mobility experts who understand what digital transformation really looks like on the ground.
00:00:42.479 --> 00:00:55.759
Today we'll explore the technology trends that matter, the strategies that keep operations moving, and why the areas like data security and sustainability are fast becoming essential foundations for modern supply chains.
00:00:55.759 --> 00:01:04.079
You'll also hear the real stories, the challenges, the breakthroughs, and the partnerships that turn complex problems into smarter operations.
00:01:04.079 --> 00:01:10.000
We're well into 2026, and this is the year of RFID, right?
00:01:10.000 --> 00:01:13.200
Well, we know RFID has been around for decades.
00:01:13.200 --> 00:01:34.959
However, in this episode, we dive into the evolving world that is RFID, where we've moved well past the retail, manufacturing, parcel and postal scenarios, and we discuss how sustainable RFID is, how it lends itself to full end-to-end traceability and authenticity applications, as well as being a complementary technology.
00:01:34.959 --> 00:01:48.879
I'm joined by expert Kam Pancholi from Peak and Paul Freeman from Sato, and their combined experience brings a wealth of knowledge about RFID, which is reshaping various industries as we speak.
00:01:48.879 --> 00:01:54.239
Let's now dive into the Connected Technologies podcast by Peak Technology.
00:01:54.239 --> 00:02:00.799
I'm really, really pleased that these two gentlemen are here.
00:02:00.799 --> 00:02:06.560
I've been looking forward to this podcast for a while because, and you'll hear the story kind of why.
00:02:06.560 --> 00:02:10.639
It's all about RFID, but I'm really pleased that these two gentlemen are here.
00:02:10.639 --> 00:02:13.280
So, Kam, Paul, good to have you on the podcast.
00:02:13.280 --> 00:02:14.960
Kam, I'll start with you.
00:02:14.960 --> 00:02:20.800
Can you tell me your name, can you tell me who you work for and what you do, and how long you've been in the industry for, please?
00:02:21.039 --> 00:02:31.360
Yeah, Kam Pancholi, uh Business Development Director at Peak Technologies in our uh automation intelligence division in at Peak around five months.
00:02:31.360 --> 00:02:40.240
Prior to that, 15 years in RFID industry, providing end-to-end solutions to the likes of Matalan, Tesco, Asda, H&M.
00:02:40.240 --> 00:02:41.199
Plenty more.
00:02:41.199 --> 00:02:43.439
And we could talk about some of those uh later on.
00:02:43.439 --> 00:02:45.039
So thanks for having us.
00:02:45.039 --> 00:02:45.520
Thank you.
00:02:45.520 --> 00:02:47.599
We will be talking about those later on, Kam.
00:02:47.759 --> 00:02:48.319
We really will.
00:02:48.319 --> 00:02:50.080
And Paul, same question to you.
00:02:50.080 --> 00:02:54.560
Can you tell me who you are, who you work for, and how long you've been in the industry for, please?
00:02:54.800 --> 00:02:55.439
Yeah, thank you.
00:02:55.439 --> 00:03:03.680
Yeah, Paul Freeman, currently doing RFID pre-sales and solutions, been working with Sato, and Sato is an OEM printer manufacturer.
00:03:03.680 --> 00:03:07.840
I've been working here 23 years this year, done various hats within that.
00:03:07.840 --> 00:03:12.000
So tech support, media, RFID, product management, etc.
00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:13.840
So yeah, it's all good fun.
00:03:14.319 --> 00:03:20.400
I appreciate this is an audio only podcast, but it doesn't sound like you've been in the industry for 23 years, Paul.
00:03:22.639 --> 00:03:24.560
Yeah, I'll refrain from commenting.
00:03:24.560 --> 00:03:28.719
Good stuff.
00:03:28.879 --> 00:03:30.400
All right, I can vouch for him.
00:03:30.400 --> 00:03:34.400
Yeah, we've been in the industry a long time.
00:03:34.560 --> 00:03:36.240
Yeah, right, right, okay.
00:03:36.240 --> 00:03:38.159
Uh Kam, I'll start with you first.
00:03:38.159 --> 00:03:43.039
Now, we all know this is the year of RFID, right?
00:03:43.039 --> 00:03:48.159
So I know that RFID, the technology itself, has been around for year for years and years.
00:03:48.159 --> 00:03:56.479
But this is the year of RFID, 2026, and you can put me down as you know, quoting saying that this is the year of RFID.
00:03:56.479 --> 00:03:59.280
We say that every year, but this is going to be the year, Kam.
00:03:59.280 --> 00:04:01.520
So it is that your view as well?
00:04:01.840 --> 00:04:02.960
Uh definitely not.
00:04:02.960 --> 00:04:05.439
If I look back at my sorry, yeah.
00:04:05.439 --> 00:04:09.520
When I speak to a lot of people, they'd say this is the year of the RFID.
00:04:09.520 --> 00:04:18.800
But if you look at so I sat around 15 years ago, because some of the customers, and I'll name some names, just not they're not uh industry secrets or anything, anything.
00:04:18.800 --> 00:04:22.959
So at that point, Tesco were doing RFID.
00:04:22.959 --> 00:04:26.319
Okay, so they've been doing it since when they had Windows devices.
00:04:26.319 --> 00:04:26.639
Okay.
00:04:26.639 --> 00:04:39.519
Before that, Marks and Spencer's, Decathlon, Inditex, they've been doing this for over 20 years, and that's why they're so successful having stores all over the world and making good profit.
00:04:39.519 --> 00:04:53.040
So use cases have changed over time, hardware's changed, times have changed, uh, prices come down, but there is a lot to go after and a lot of mature, mature customers, a lot, a lot of best practice to learn from.
00:04:53.040 --> 00:05:03.279
So what we're seeing now is as well as retail, which started first, we're seeing a lot of different industries, such as manufacturing or in pharmaceuticals.
00:05:03.279 --> 00:05:06.480
And I think Paul will mention some of those that he's working with.
00:05:06.480 --> 00:05:21.120
So on a weekly basis here at Peak, we're getting inquiries or we're working on projects in postal services, you know, managing parcels or managing healthcare or managing production of batches or production lines.
00:05:21.120 --> 00:05:26.959
So so yeah, sorry to uh kill your line about this is the year of RFID.
00:05:26.959 --> 00:05:36.000
You know, it's uh it's been going for a while, and and there's only more there's more and more, especially when there's gonna be some more mandates and regulations coming in.
00:05:36.000 --> 00:05:38.319
And I think there's a whole section we'll talk about that.
00:05:38.319 --> 00:05:39.439
So yeah.
00:05:39.680 --> 00:05:42.079
I think you completely burst my bubble there, actually, Kam.
00:05:42.079 --> 00:05:44.480
So uh yeah, it's great to have you on the podcast, mate.
00:05:44.480 --> 00:05:46.000
Really, really appreciate that.
00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:51.199
So actually, Kam, you you mentioned tags, and Paul, this is where I want to kind of bring you in.
00:05:51.199 --> 00:05:59.199
So obviously, Sato, you have Sato printers, there's all sorts of things that you do with regard to RFID, but obviously not just that.
00:05:59.199 --> 00:06:05.920
But kind of talk me through kind of how a tag is made and the types of RFID tags that you can get.
00:06:05.920 --> 00:06:15.279
Because obviously, you know, we've we've shopped at some of us who shopped at Decathlon, we've shopped in Tesco and Marks and Spencer Kam, as you said, and you know, tags look very, very different.
00:06:15.279 --> 00:06:20.160
So, you know, kind of talk me through the kind of types of tags that you could potentially get.
00:06:20.480 --> 00:06:35.360
Yeah, there's as you probably appreciate, there's hundreds and hundreds of different permutations out there, whether that's the antenna design, so I what we'd look at either the shiny silver bit, but the the key factors as well is like the little black dot that holds your data, right?
00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:41.120
Now, when you look at an inlay, a tag, there's multiple names for it as well.
00:06:41.120 --> 00:06:49.920
It's what frequency, you know, is it HF, is it UHF, is it hybrid role where you might have HF or NFC and a UHF.
00:06:49.920 --> 00:07:03.920
So, what we try and do here is obviously work with the customer, work with the partner, try and really understand their endpoint, the pain points, and go, what is the best inlay or label that you need to solve your pain?
00:07:03.920 --> 00:07:08.319
Okay, whether that's just a KPI, and we'll touch on this, I think, as we go on later.
00:07:08.319 --> 00:07:18.000
But there's a lot to do with the how do you program it, angle of read, type of reader, distance of read, the product you apply it to.
00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:24.480
So there's a lot of factors that we really need to consider before we've even actually put that label through a printer.
00:07:24.480 --> 00:07:30.560
Now, the stuff that we obviously manufacture is all tuned and optimized around the Sato offering.
00:07:30.560 --> 00:07:42.879
So we know we've got the accuracy, we know we've got the performance, and we know there should be minimal errors which accompany the quality of the the printer units we we obviously manufacture.
00:07:43.120 --> 00:07:43.439
Mm-hmm.
00:07:43.439 --> 00:07:43.920
Mm-hmm.
00:07:44.079 --> 00:07:44.800
Absolutely.
00:07:44.959 --> 00:07:51.279
Uh now, Kam, you mentioned that let's take Decathlon as an example.
00:07:51.279 --> 00:07:58.639
Retail apparel, there are RFID tags that you can put inside a label, inside a polo shirt or whatever.
00:07:58.639 --> 00:08:04.480
You're also also seeing RFID tags being put into high value items.
00:08:04.480 --> 00:08:09.920
UK store, for example, that does lots of bags and things like that.
00:08:09.920 --> 00:08:13.680
There are tags that are put into those and they're all different kinds of shapes and sizes.
00:08:13.680 --> 00:08:21.680
But I want to come back to one thing that you alluded to, which was the different industries that RFID can now plug into.
00:08:21.680 --> 00:08:23.439
So apparel is one.
00:08:23.439 --> 00:08:29.279
What other industries could RFID tags get attached to?
00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:30.240
Yeah.
00:08:30.240 --> 00:08:37.039
So if I take um again, UPS, again, this is not this, not it's all in the public domain.
00:08:37.039 --> 00:08:43.039
So they're doing so if you imagine how many parcels they scan worldwide.
00:08:43.039 --> 00:08:43.919
Millions.
00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:45.519
Billions and billions.
00:08:45.519 --> 00:08:48.799
So all that is manual, it's prone to error.
00:08:48.799 --> 00:08:51.120
So they've invested in RFID.
00:08:51.120 --> 00:08:55.039
They were putting labels on anyway, but now there's gonna have an RFID label.
00:08:55.039 --> 00:09:02.799
So when it passes through a tunnel or a read point or an exit or into a van, whichever, it will be read automatically.
00:09:02.799 --> 00:09:10.240
So for them, that's eliminated a lot of resource, but also accurate tracking of that parcel.
00:09:10.240 --> 00:09:19.600
And then if you're an end user or a customer and you're expecting your parcel, you can track it all the way all the way through accurately, knowing exactly where it is.
00:09:19.600 --> 00:09:23.600
So that's just one of the industries that we're seeing a big growth.
00:09:23.600 --> 00:09:35.039
So look, when they've started the other carriers or couriers or packaging companies are following suit, okay, because they're saying they're doing it and they're gonna go ahead in the market, but we need to be doing something similar.
00:09:35.039 --> 00:09:38.639
So we're seeing that as a as a big growth area, okay.
00:09:38.639 --> 00:09:41.919
So transport logistics and parcels is is is big.
00:09:41.919 --> 00:10:00.080
Um then we're seeing more and more in pharmaceuticals, uh, healthcare, and again, yeah, because you've got patient administration, you've got health, well-being, you've got actual manufacturing of life critical medicines.
00:10:00.080 --> 00:10:00.399
Okay.
00:10:00.399 --> 00:10:04.240
They maybe temperature uh, you know, have to be regulated.
00:10:04.240 --> 00:10:17.200
So there's a lot of new use cases we're seeing where everything was being tracked before by barcode, but now RFID labels are being applied more and more, and that whole work f workflow is being improved.
00:10:17.200 --> 00:10:20.399
Then there's food, there's food is a new one that's coming up.
00:10:20.399 --> 00:10:35.600
But again, we'll talk about some of the new industries which have not really touched RFID before, but now with the advancement of the tags and you know the readers and the s size of the tags, there's more and more to you know, to reduce waste.
00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:36.159
Yeah.
00:10:36.159 --> 00:10:41.840
Would you how how would you how would you put an RFID tag in food?
00:10:41.840 --> 00:10:53.440
So it's on the packaging, and if you imagine if you had an RFID label and it's got electronics in it, if you put that in a microwave, it would explode, okay?
00:10:53.759 --> 00:10:55.120
Yeah, that's that's obviously not thing to do.
00:10:56.879 --> 00:11:03.039
And not everyone reads instructions, okay, to say please do not take this and put this, you know, take this off.
00:11:03.039 --> 00:11:13.600
No one so all those advancements and all those testing that has been done on food, there's there's the standards bodies, and not everyone can produce a type and put it on a food label.
00:11:13.600 --> 00:11:24.320
Food so there's different types and different standards having to be adhered, whether it's clothing or whether it's electronics or whether it's batteries, there are different rules and regulations.
00:11:24.320 --> 00:11:27.360
Um again for the circularity as well.
00:11:27.360 --> 00:11:33.440
Okay, not just food waste at the beginning, but also what happens with that item or merchandise.
00:11:33.440 --> 00:11:36.559
So that's what we're finding more and more.
00:11:36.559 --> 00:11:37.200
Yeah.
00:11:37.600 --> 00:11:39.360
So several different verticals.
00:11:39.360 --> 00:11:53.679
Obviously, the ones that we know of and that we see are quite prolific, certainly apparel, so clothing, retail bags, famous London store, very high-end bags that they would have put RFID tags in.
00:11:53.679 --> 00:11:56.720
So there's a security piece as well.
00:11:56.720 --> 00:12:02.960
Also complete visibility end-to-end where you can see where your package or parcel is, for example.
00:12:02.960 --> 00:12:05.600
So that was one of the verticals that you mentioned, Kam.
00:12:05.600 --> 00:12:13.200
Paul, at this point, there's other verticals that RFID tags play in.
00:12:13.200 --> 00:12:18.399
And Kam was really quick to mention things like security.
00:12:18.399 --> 00:12:20.080
And I want to I want to bring that up.
00:12:20.080 --> 00:12:28.879
So I don't know, walk me through an example from taking a tag from when it's first made all the way through to to when the tag is kind of ended.
00:12:28.879 --> 00:12:30.080
So kind of birth to death.
00:12:30.080 --> 00:12:32.559
Though that I don't I don't want to use that death term.
00:12:32.559 --> 00:12:34.399
So let's say recycle.
00:12:34.399 --> 00:12:36.320
Let's say birth to recycle.
00:12:36.480 --> 00:12:36.960
Yeah.
00:12:36.960 --> 00:12:39.679
Or or end of cycle, maybe.
00:12:40.240 --> 00:12:41.120
Sure, sure.
00:12:41.360 --> 00:12:52.080
So typically, obviously, each RFID label, the closer you can get back to source tagging, as we call it, or supplier tagging or raw material, the more data you're gonna get.
00:12:52.080 --> 00:13:00.240
Okay, the more analytical data you're gonna get, which is gonna be more powerful for whether it's suppliers, supply chain, manufacturers.
00:13:00.240 --> 00:13:24.720
Obviously, it's gonna give you key touch points because then you know exactly what is where, when, you know exactly what's in the supply chain, visibility, and that can link onto whether it's for loss prevention, anti-counterfeiting, you know, and it can drive other standards because things that we're seeing coming through, especially like digital product passports, gonna make you drive back towards that source tagging.
00:13:24.720 --> 00:13:44.559
So if you send the data down, you do print and encode, and with the intelligence that Sato have got called AEP, so Application Enable Printing, we can actually print encode and then upload the the SKU, the RFID data, whether it's the EPC, the TID, the printer, serial number, IP back into like the peak technologies host system.
00:13:44.559 --> 00:13:52.240
Now you know that label, the minute it's come out or the second it's come out the front of the printer, it's now live in a system somewhere.
00:13:52.480 --> 00:13:54.639
So that tag has been birthed or born.
00:13:54.960 --> 00:13:57.519
And this is this is at this is done at source, right?
00:13:57.519 --> 00:14:01.759
So if you've got a bag of raw materials, it's then coded, it's printed.
00:14:02.399 --> 00:14:03.279
Yeah, absolutely.
00:14:03.279 --> 00:14:09.200
You make your t-shirt, you can either apply it there or embed it into the t-shirt at that point.
00:14:09.200 --> 00:14:10.080
You could do it then.
00:14:10.080 --> 00:14:24.879
So if you've got multiple suppliers globally, so if we step back and we use retail as an example, multiple suppliers, different locations across the world, you can also then get visibility of what suppliers borne each tag with its unique identification into your system.
00:14:25.679 --> 00:14:26.480
Right, got it.
00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:26.960
Okay.
00:14:28.399 --> 00:14:40.879
And then from that, your touch point obviously generally it will come into some sort of distribution, whether that's dedicated distribution, whether that's a cross-docking where you process different from one side across.
00:14:40.879 --> 00:14:53.120
You might have a the equivalent of a GXO, a DHL, uh various other ones as well, who might just process within the DC different franchises, different brands, etc.
00:14:53.120 --> 00:14:58.159
So you can do a lot of retaking at that point, but that gives you a different touch point.
00:14:58.159 --> 00:15:01.200
And this will come down to are you in retail?
00:15:01.200 --> 00:15:02.399
Are you in healthcare?
00:15:02.399 --> 00:15:03.919
Are you transport and logistics?
00:15:03.919 --> 00:15:04.879
Are you manufacturing?
00:15:04.879 --> 00:15:12.639
Because at each touch point, that unique identification or unique data that's been pre-encoded is a different argument, okay?
00:15:12.639 --> 00:15:15.440
It's a different bit of analytics, it's a different power.
00:15:15.440 --> 00:15:19.919
So if we looked at retail, we might go, I want to know this is a white t-shirt.
00:15:19.919 --> 00:15:24.720
But in healthcare, I want to know the lot number, the batch number, the expiry date.
00:15:24.720 --> 00:15:29.440
It's all key unique data and each touch point as we go.
00:15:29.440 --> 00:15:38.240
And then obviously from distribution, do you go straight to store, as in retail bricks and mortar store, or do you actually go direct to consumer?
00:15:38.240 --> 00:15:43.759
So omnichannel, e-commerce, you know, things of this nature where you're just posting it out.
00:15:43.759 --> 00:15:48.639
So it's sector-driven, whole different touch points.
00:15:48.639 --> 00:15:55.679
But that data from time of when it's born and all the scan points can be really powerful, especially if you're shipping across the world.
00:15:55.679 --> 00:16:08.000
And if you build that in with other technologies such as uh BLE or you're bringing it in just doing hybrid systems with barcodes, you can really get a lot of power from them touch points.
00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:14.480
So are you suggesting then that you wouldn't just use RFID as a standalone technology, right?
00:16:14.480 --> 00:16:22.799
So I can I can get my whatever handheld scanner it is, I can wave it around in front of boxes, and then I, you know, I can do a stock count of whatever I'm counting.
00:16:22.799 --> 00:16:28.320
But are you suggesting that that you you wouldn't just use RFID technology in isolation?
00:16:28.559 --> 00:16:29.360
Yeah, correct.
00:16:29.360 --> 00:16:35.120
So we're finding now, you go back quite a few years, it I found it was quite siloed.
00:16:35.120 --> 00:16:37.919
People would use RFID or just barcode now.
00:16:37.919 --> 00:16:47.200
But we're finding a lot of it is hybrid systems where you might have 2D scanning at one point because the supplier might not be able to have the infrastructure for RFID.
00:16:47.200 --> 00:16:47.360
Right.
00:16:47.360 --> 00:16:57.120
But having that 2D that's linked to the RFID in some way, you might have an uh downstream scan point that uses the RFID and not the barcode.
00:16:57.759 --> 00:16:58.000
Yeah.
00:16:58.000 --> 00:17:02.720
In my old uh role where it was just apparel, it was just RFID.
00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:16.319
So if someone said, I want to do some asset tracking or I want to do some you know GPS tracking of the something at some you know, whatever m you know, vans or people or whatever, uh it was no bid, okay, because all we were focused on was RFID.
00:17:16.559 --> 00:17:16.720
Right.
00:17:16.960 --> 00:17:32.000
Here at Peak, as part of the Automation Intelligence Division, we walk into a business, whether it's a distribution centre or a factory or a store, whatever environment that is, and we'd walk around and say, you need RFID for that.
00:17:32.000 --> 00:17:40.799
Okay, you can use Bluetooth for that, you need machine vision for this, or you can stick with the barcode scanning on this because that works and there's no need to invest.
00:17:40.799 --> 00:17:57.359
So we walk through and we've got a wide range of eco-partners, best of breed, who are global, because the adoptions take place at a higher level with the big you know, big companies first, and then it goes down to other.
00:17:57.359 --> 00:18:10.240
So as you know, we work with SATO, we work with several large organizations who understand have got the systems in place, and have got the hardware and all the standards that go with it.
00:18:10.240 --> 00:18:10.640
Okay.
00:18:10.640 --> 00:18:13.839
So so yeah, it could be it will be a hybrid.
00:18:13.839 --> 00:18:15.920
Okay, we're not gonna go in, so we don't go in.
00:18:15.920 --> 00:18:26.160
So we've got software partners, hardware partners, and experts in all of these areas within our division, and within you know, we can leverage all our partner network.
00:18:28.319 --> 00:18:48.559
And just to add, just to sort of close that last little point, and this is where certainly the the power that the Sato OEM brings to support the likes of Peak and their system as well, and that's where a lot of our slogans you may see is called Sato Powered On Site because we do equivalent to what Kam alludes to, is go that extra bit of distance, you know, really tune into what the customer wants.
00:18:48.559 --> 00:18:52.079
And that could be as silly as what is your immediate pain points?
00:18:52.079 --> 00:18:53.440
Is there any conformance?
00:18:53.440 --> 00:18:57.359
Are you being driven down RFID or barcode because of standards?
00:18:57.359 --> 00:19:06.240
And I know we'll touch on that shortly, but that could be a driving factor of why people need to adopt these solutions or the technology.
00:19:06.240 --> 00:19:10.480
And off the back of that, where's the return on investment coming from?
00:19:10.480 --> 00:19:30.640
Now I appreciate that's a whole different probably podcast in its own, but that is some driving factors that collectively Sato and Peak actually look at at that real early stages is where are all the real benefits, where are the touch points, and also how do we collectively future proof the solution for the customer?
00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:32.160
A couple of things.
00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:36.000
It sounds like you're looking for an invite to get back onto the podcast, Paul and Kam.
00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:37.279
So um we'll
00:19:37.279 --> 00:19:38.960
More than happy!
00:19:38.960 --> 00:19:40.000
We'll put a pin in that one.
00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:44.079
We'll put a pin in that one.
00:19:44.079 --> 00:19:49.839
But it in all seriousness, come coming back to some of the things that you said, and and you've mentioned a number of different things.
00:19:49.839 --> 00:19:54.240
So clearly, RFID isn't just a standalone silo technology.
00:19:54.240 --> 00:20:00.240
Actually, you can use it in a complementary manner with other technologies, which is great.
00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:04.559
And a little bit like so, I I came from the consumer space.
00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:11.440
I spent a long time in mobile telephony and you know, kind of help build 2 and 3 G and 4G base stations.
00:20:11.440 --> 00:20:17.279
So understand the standards around GSM, the whole kind of global system for mobile communication.
00:20:17.279 --> 00:20:21.920
I know it's come from the French, but that's kind of colloquially as it's as it's known.
00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:24.240
So you you refer to standards.
00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:26.960
So obviously Bluetooth is a standard.
00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:38.640
Are you suggesting that RFID is also just the technology, but how the tags are also created, printed, and encoded, Paul?
00:20:38.880 --> 00:20:40.079
Yeah, yeah, correctly.
00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:50.000
So you've got when you look at the RFID world or spectrum, it obviously works off frequencies, whether that's HF frequency or UHF frequency.
00:20:50.000 --> 00:20:56.880
The RFID, if you like, label RFID is set between certain parameters.
00:20:56.880 --> 00:21:03.279
Normally about an 868 to a 928 megahertz, but it changes where you are geographically.
00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:09.039
So in Europe, you're closer to the 860 sort of um 868 megahertz.
00:21:09.039 --> 00:21:12.079
In say America, you might be closer to 917.
00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:26.960
So at the speccing of the inlay or label, whatever terminology you want to put on it, we need to be mindful of where your scan points are because what you don't want to do is have a, if you like a Europe spec label and try and read it in America or Asia, it's not quite going to work.
00:21:26.960 --> 00:21:31.440
But you can get global specification tags that will help.
00:21:31.440 --> 00:21:41.680
Now, the other thing that we need to be mindful of, if you apply that label to a product, you might get different performance in Europe than you will in America because of different hardware.
00:21:41.680 --> 00:21:57.440
This is where some of, especially in the RFID world, um, Rain Alliance, EPC, GS1 all help put guidance and standards down that a lot of the reader manufacturers will then look to conform to.
00:21:57.440 --> 00:21:59.759
But then on top of that, you've got things.
00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:03.440
Called tag data standards, air interface standard.
00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:09.759
So all of that sort of if you like first layer of how do I read, there's a whole heap of conformance.
00:22:09.759 --> 00:22:16.559
Then you get into different conformance or standards, which is what structure do I encode?
00:22:16.559 --> 00:22:25.039
Am I conforming to like a digital product passport, which is set structure, set layer, set amount of info?
00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:30.319
So there's multiple standards, but collectively we need to understand that from the customer.
00:22:31.039 --> 00:22:33.119
And actually, you raise a really good point there.
00:22:33.119 --> 00:22:36.559
So all of this almost has to be questioned up front.
00:22:36.559 --> 00:22:42.079
And again, to the points that both of you were making with regard to what's the customer pain point?
00:22:42.079 --> 00:22:43.680
What is it we're trying to solve?
00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:54.240
And if you can understand that, they may only be looking to deploy something regionally, let's say in Europe, or it may be global across Europe, Middle East, Africa, the States, you know, everywhere.
00:22:54.240 --> 00:22:57.759
So it's really good to make sure that we understand that kind of upfront.
00:22:58.079 --> 00:22:58.559
Absolutely.
00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:03.920
And also what you need to be mindful of is what's the value of the product we're tagging?
00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:04.640
Okay.
00:23:04.640 --> 00:23:07.680
It could be as simple as that as a starting question.
00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:16.319
Because we know labels, we know process, we know scanners, hardware, whatever it be, RFID or non-RFID, all has a price to it.
00:23:16.640 --> 00:23:17.200
Yes.
00:23:17.200 --> 00:23:18.559
Yes, absolutely.
00:23:19.039 --> 00:23:24.880
So you've got the standards as as Paul mentioned with GS1 and Rain Alliance.
00:23:24.880 --> 00:23:38.880
There is also Auburn University, the ARC standards, where any tag for any different vertical has it should go through the Auburn University where they test everything.
00:23:38.880 --> 00:23:49.119
So for folk apparel, it's a class um R for retail where they will put through 10 pairs of jeans or so many washes.
00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:52.559
They do all the testing and it has to conform.
00:23:52.559 --> 00:24:09.200
So then if you're a large retailer like um, so let's take H&M, for example, and they've got a billion tags, for example, all over the you know, four and a half thousand stores or whatever the number of stores are, all in different countries, not one manufacturer is going to make all those tags.
00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:09.680
Okay?
00:24:09.680 --> 00:24:14.480
It's gonna go to three or four different companies, it's gonna go to all the different factories.
00:24:14.480 --> 00:24:17.519
They will say it has to be this standard.
00:24:17.519 --> 00:24:18.079
Okay.
00:24:18.079 --> 00:24:26.160
Uh and it has to be a classification through Auburn University certified, you know, whatever the number code is.
00:24:26.160 --> 00:24:30.720
If you're doing general merchandise, there is another set of rules for that.
00:24:30.720 --> 00:24:42.000
If you're doing tyres or you're doing pharmaceuticals, they will have tested every tag by the large manufacturers to say what are the standards you need this to do.
00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:45.680
Heat, temperature, all of these things.
00:24:45.680 --> 00:24:53.440
And that is a better way because there's a lot of companies starting up on the RFID bandwagon saying I can make you a very low-cost tag.
00:24:53.440 --> 00:24:56.960
And it doesn't, it doesn't work properly.
00:24:56.960 --> 00:24:59.279
So because it's not been through the validation.
00:24:59.279 --> 00:25:04.240
And to get onto the Auburn University, you have to be a certified company.
00:25:04.240 --> 00:25:05.279
Okay.
00:25:05.279 --> 00:25:09.920
And if you if you pass all those tests, then you can be invited to a tender.
00:25:10.319 --> 00:25:10.480
Okay.
00:25:10.720 --> 00:25:12.640
So I think it's really good to have that standard.
00:25:13.039 --> 00:25:18.559
So actually, and I think you're absolutely spot on because it's not just a case of making the tag.
00:25:18.559 --> 00:25:22.000
You've got to be able to read the tag in all sorts of different conditions.
00:25:22.000 --> 00:25:30.559
So are you suggesting then, Ken, that the Auburn University are the equivalent of the BSI or UL type approvals?
00:25:30.799 --> 00:25:31.039
Yeah.
00:25:31.039 --> 00:25:32.240
Yeah, exactly.
00:25:32.240 --> 00:25:39.359
And and most companies, big retailers, go there first, okay, and say, we are trying to do RFID.
00:25:39.359 --> 00:25:41.920
What do you recommend in terms of the tags?
00:25:41.920 --> 00:25:51.440
And then they will get the guidance and and make sure that the tags that they're gonna spend are gonna work because these are big investments.
00:25:51.440 --> 00:25:53.440
And it and in retail it's ongoing.
00:25:53.440 --> 00:26:01.920
Because once that tag is gone and sold, then obviously every year it's a recurring, recurring uh expenditure.
00:26:01.920 --> 00:26:02.559
Okay.
00:26:02.559 --> 00:26:05.359
And every tag has to be read.
00:26:05.359 --> 00:26:09.920
If it's not read and it's not correct, then your inventory is it's it's not meaningful.
00:26:09.920 --> 00:26:10.559
Sure.
00:26:10.559 --> 00:26:26.960
So it's is it so that whole source tagging and all the things Paul mentioned about picking the right tag, making sure it's quality, make sure it's got quality control, all of those things right at the beginning are key to the use cases down the line.
00:26:28.559 --> 00:26:37.599
Paul, I I want to I want to ask you something, because I know that when we were kind of preparing for this, there was a a big question that came up around security.
00:26:37.599 --> 00:26:47.680
Now, of course, anything electronic that we make, it's open to counterfeiting, to issues with security and things like that.
00:26:47.680 --> 00:27:05.519
And of course, if you consider the whole supply chain, it's probably now the new next target for uh cybersecurity and bad actors looking to get in and potentially you know counterfeit products or counterfeit solutions.
00:27:05.519 --> 00:27:09.440
What things are in place for RFID technology?
00:27:09.759 --> 00:27:10.880
There's there's quite a lot.
00:27:10.880 --> 00:27:17.039
Now, there's obviously software security layers about how you manage your data, are you sat behind firewalls?
00:27:17.039 --> 00:27:20.079
You know, how what is there the data encrypted?
00:27:20.079 --> 00:27:25.920
Some misconceptions are that if I'm programming a tag, I'm putting critical data in there.
00:27:25.920 --> 00:27:30.160
So if we just quickly looked at healthcare, it's like patient demographic data.
00:27:30.160 --> 00:27:30.880
No, we're not.
00:27:30.880 --> 00:27:34.640
We're just putting, and I describe it as a key to a front door, okay?
00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:38.319
It's a key, you know it's a key, but I'm not telling you which front door it is.
00:27:38.319 --> 00:27:38.640
Okay.
00:27:38.640 --> 00:27:38.880
Right.
00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:40.880
So you haven't actually got that link.
00:27:40.880 --> 00:27:47.839
Now, outside of that, at the tag level or the chip level, the little black dot that holds your data, we can lock that.
00:27:47.839 --> 00:27:49.519
We can give it certain passwords.
00:27:49.519 --> 00:27:54.480
So at the label level, you've also got levels of security as well.
00:27:54.480 --> 00:28:10.480
Now, at the reader level, when you read the inlay, they do like a handshake, they have a communication, and there's security layers at that, which are all driven by the standards that we've already just touched on, whether that's tag standards, air interface standards, read standards.
00:28:10.480 --> 00:28:15.920
So that there's a lot of, if you like, micro layers that can make up a whole set of security.
00:28:15.920 --> 00:28:20.240
But then you've got the other flip side of are we using it for anti-anti-counterfeiting?
00:28:20.240 --> 00:28:23.200
So when it's scanned, am I going up to a secure database?
00:28:23.200 --> 00:28:24.720
Is this a genuine product?
00:28:24.720 --> 00:28:26.160
Is it a safe product?
00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:28.079
Is it right for the customer?
00:28:28.079 --> 00:28:30.160
You know, so there's all that.
00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:38.640
You can also build the RFID inlays into tamper evident labels, you know, like your peel-it-off warranty as void type labels.
00:28:38.640 --> 00:28:38.880
Yes.
00:28:38.880 --> 00:28:43.599
So you can put an inlay in there, so you've got that visual security deterrent.
00:28:43.599 --> 00:28:55.279
So multiple layers of security can be there, whether it's direct inlay, security, level as in, physical, remove it, it shows void or software.
00:28:56.559 --> 00:29:10.960
Some of the other tags, so if you take your um luxury bags like you mentioned earlier, if if a label was on show and get ripped off, then there's no proof that it's authentic or not.
00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:27.920
So what a lot of the luxury brands are doing, they're putting it inside a tag, inside inside the lining, so that when a a garment or or a bag is returned and someone says, I I paid 5,000 pounds, but I've got no receipt.
00:29:27.920 --> 00:29:28.160
Okay.
00:29:29.039 --> 00:29:30.000
That old chestnut.
00:29:30.559 --> 00:29:31.920
That old chestnut, yeah.
00:29:31.920 --> 00:29:40.640
So what they would do is they would put that bag on a reader and it would it would read if there's a tag in there, then it would read it.
00:29:40.640 --> 00:29:43.200
If it wasn't, they'd say, This is not a genuine.
00:29:43.200 --> 00:29:43.599
Right.
00:29:43.599 --> 00:29:46.319
Okay, because they they because it's not reading it.
00:29:46.319 --> 00:30:02.559
So and what we're also finding is more and more tags are now gonna be in the care label or a sew-in label, because when we mentioned earlier on, a life of a tag is you start in the source tagging and then it's end of life when it's ripped off.
00:30:02.559 --> 00:30:26.079
Going forward, it won't be ripped off because you'll want there will be a circularity uh and the DPP will, you know, you you as a as a supplier will need to provide evidence of where this was made, what materials you used, and then as a consumer, you might want to see, you know, is this ethically made?
00:30:26.079 --> 00:30:29.839
Just like you have a packet of crisps and it's got traffic lights, okay.
00:30:29.839 --> 00:30:35.839
You will be able to look and say, was this done made with the right materials in the right countries?
00:30:35.839 --> 00:30:40.400
And also what do I do with it when I finish with this garment?
00:30:40.400 --> 00:30:41.440
Can I resell it?
00:30:41.440 --> 00:30:43.599
Can I re- you know, can I put it on landfill?
00:30:43.599 --> 00:30:45.200
Can it be resold?
00:30:45.200 --> 00:30:49.119
Can it be, you know, there's lots of different things coming up with the DPP.
00:30:49.440 --> 00:30:58.640
Paul, just just before you chime in, I I want to come back to that in terms of the the whole the uh eco cycle of a particular tag.
00:30:58.640 --> 00:31:02.799
So we talked about the birth of a tag, and and Paul, I want to kind of bring you in at this point.
00:31:02.799 --> 00:31:04.160
Um, but I know you've got a point to make.
00:31:04.160 --> 00:31:08.319
Kam, can you just help me understand what DPP stands for, please?
00:31:08.559 --> 00:31:11.119
Yeah, so that's the digital product passport.
00:31:11.119 --> 00:31:19.519
The rules for EU have been delayed, but there is a timetable and it has moved quite a lot over the last few years.
00:31:19.519 --> 00:31:29.200
But I think the batteries are gonna be in 2027, okay, of how you do the batteries, how you dispose of them, where they're made, all the carbon footprint.
00:31:29.200 --> 00:31:42.240
There's a lot of things that manufacturers will need to provide to the governments, all to help with the landfills and the you know environment and resale and all these things.
00:31:42.240 --> 00:31:49.519
So um there is uh there's a timetable of batteries, and then there's metals and aluminium and steel.
00:31:49.519 --> 00:32:05.039
And for the textiles and apparel, that's 2028-2029, okay, where uh all manufacturers will need to put a QR code or an RFID label that stays with that garment and it doesn't get ripped off.
00:32:05.440 --> 00:32:13.279
And just very quickly, what can you just summarize the point of a digital product passport and what it's there for?
00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:34.960
Yeah, so the it's for the traceability of the merchandise, whether it's apparel, footwear, uh tyres, any of the products, there will have to be a traceability of what the materials, country of origin, carbon footprint, and then what happens when you finish with that merchandise.
00:32:34.960 --> 00:32:35.519
Right.
00:32:35.519 --> 00:32:37.039
Can you recycle it?
00:32:37.039 --> 00:32:38.559
Can you resell it?
00:32:38.559 --> 00:32:42.960
Can it be re you know, there's a lot of things in there depending on the industries, okay?
00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:43.359
Right.
00:32:43.359 --> 00:32:49.359
So that's what's happening, and the data will be held in an EU repository, okay?
00:32:49.359 --> 00:32:52.319
Not all the data, just the identifier.
00:32:52.319 --> 00:33:07.599
And each brand will have to have their own repository of their products that says this is a blue t this is a black t-shirt, it was made in Vietnam, this is the merchandise, and this is what you can do at the end of it.
00:33:07.849 --> 00:33:08.079
Right.
00:33:08.240 --> 00:33:21.279
You as a consumer will be able to scan a big QR code because that's what most people have on their phones, and it will have a link to the brand, and you should be able to see everything about that product.
00:33:21.279 --> 00:33:25.039
It was made in this country, it's been resold once.
00:33:25.039 --> 00:33:29.839
If it was a vintage product, you know, uh not vintage, uh a second user product.
00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:35.759
So if we go back to the handbag uh scenario, I bought it for 5,000, I sold it for 10,000.
00:33:35.759 --> 00:33:40.880
And this is the authentic authentication certificate, because that lives in the cloud as well.
00:33:40.880 --> 00:33:46.480
Okay, and then I might the next person might sell it to the third person for 15,000.
00:33:46.480 --> 00:33:52.880
And all that is going to be in a blockchain or in the cloud where you know that's authentic.
00:33:52.880 --> 00:34:00.240
So that it's a lot of traceability and recycling and end-of-life circularity.
00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:00.640
Okay?
00:34:01.119 --> 00:34:01.440
Got it.
00:34:01.440 --> 00:34:02.319
Yeah, got it.
00:34:02.319 --> 00:34:03.039
That's great.
00:34:03.039 --> 00:34:08.159
Paul, you had a couple of things to say around the previous topic that we were talking about.
00:34:08.480 --> 00:34:09.280
Yeah, please.
00:34:09.280 --> 00:34:14.800
Some of the latest chipsets that are coming out to the marketplace also have a security layer of a silent mode.
00:34:14.800 --> 00:34:22.400
So if it's genuine at a uh like I sell it at a point of sale, I put it on the reader, I can actually switch it to say go quiet.
00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:25.760
So if it's scanned anywhere else, it isn't recognised.
00:34:25.760 --> 00:34:34.559
You bring it back to that retailer, the retailer can send us, if you like, a special command to it, wake it back up, it comes re-visible in their environment.
00:34:34.559 --> 00:34:37.519
So that also adds a security layer as well.
00:34:37.760 --> 00:34:39.440
Why would you want to do that?
00:34:39.679 --> 00:34:48.239
Because it's designed to stop people buying it in one shop, taking it down the road to another shop, and trying to get a refund from someone else.
00:34:48.239 --> 00:34:59.519
You know, it's all to do around that anti-counterfeit side of it and to make sure it's a genuine label that's been supplied by a genuine, I don't know, let's say retailer.
00:34:59.840 --> 00:35:00.320
Right, right.
00:35:00.719 --> 00:35:02.000
But you do have some as well.
00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:15.920
And Kam did touch on this is if you break the tag, you can have some that set off silent alarms behind the scenes to the back-end system as well, to say if I'm in the changing room and a tag's been broke, set a silent alarm off.
00:35:15.920 --> 00:35:18.079
You can then warn a shop assistant on the floor.
00:35:18.079 --> 00:35:20.639
So these technologies are being built in.
00:35:21.119 --> 00:35:22.800
Wow, that's incredible.
00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:24.239
That's really good to know.
00:35:24.239 --> 00:35:24.800
Really good.
00:35:25.119 --> 00:35:30.559
This is where it's starting to go, and this is when, like we touched on, there's multiple security layers.
00:35:30.559 --> 00:35:32.079
Which one do you want?
00:35:33.760 --> 00:35:34.960
Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick.
00:35:35.440 --> 00:35:36.559
Right, okay, got it.
00:35:36.559 --> 00:35:43.599
Uh, Paul, uh there was a a piece around the whole circular economy, let's say, of RFID tags.
00:35:43.599 --> 00:35:52.320
I I know we referenced this a little bit earlier with the the birth to recycling of RFID tags and components.
00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:55.519
What does that kind of end-to-end eco chain look like?
00:35:55.519 --> 00:36:00.159
I mean, can you recycle RFID tags that have already been printed and encoded?
00:36:00.480 --> 00:36:01.440
Yes, yeah, you can.
00:36:01.440 --> 00:36:13.519
So there are um sustainable RFID labels, inlays out there that can go in general ways, can be you can even get compostable ones because they no longer have any harsh chemicals in it.
00:36:13.519 --> 00:36:23.039
Okay, we've still got to be mindful of the adhesive, you know, because if you want to apply a certain adhesive type to a certain product, you may still need some chemicals in there.
00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:28.320
So that's really where the the question comes around is what is the adhesive?
00:36:28.320 --> 00:36:41.039
But the rest of it might be polyester-free, synthetic free, you know, all FSC, so uh approved from a sourced paper mill, you know, the the chain of custody as they call it.
00:36:41.039 --> 00:36:47.840
So you can have all the label material from there, the inlays, the ICs can all be again sustainable.
00:36:47.840 --> 00:36:51.039
The main question is around that adhesive layer.
00:36:51.039 --> 00:36:52.079
But yeah, absolutely.
00:36:52.079 --> 00:37:01.280
So we can almost close that full cycle to tick some sustainability argument, some CO2 or carbon emission arguments as well.
00:37:02.400 --> 00:37:02.960
That is good.
00:37:03.280 --> 00:37:13.519
Just to add on that as well, and if you think about people, and Kam rightly alluded to this, was building them into the material or the clothing or a bag or even trainers.
00:37:13.519 --> 00:37:31.039
Now we're the inlays or the labels are being embedded in, they become life of the product now, and not, oh, I'm going to re-tag in six months' time, therefore you've got two tags going on that product, or maybe even three, you know, if it's being re-tagged in another few months' time.
00:37:31.039 --> 00:37:39.760
So by building it in, you've also got not only the security layer that we've touched on, but you've got a loyalty scheme now that you can associate it to as well.
00:37:39.760 --> 00:37:45.119
So you can see there's perks, but you've still got that sustainability argument because it's part of the product now.
00:37:45.920 --> 00:37:53.440
Yeah, and and that's becoming a much bigger focus, certainly, for products and things that we purchased.
00:37:53.440 --> 00:37:59.119
That, okay, it's great to have a new pair of trainers or a great t-shirt, but how is it sustainable?
00:37:59.119 --> 00:37:59.760
How is it made?
00:37:59.760 --> 00:38:01.039
We've and we've alluded to this.
00:38:01.039 --> 00:38:02.000
How's it made?
00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:04.480
Therefore, then how do I recycle it?
00:38:04.480 --> 00:38:06.239
How do I pass it on ethically?
00:38:06.559 --> 00:38:06.960
Absolutely.
00:38:06.960 --> 00:38:14.960
And this is how you can see now that source tagging key comes into play really heavily because you need to apply the label at that point.
00:38:14.960 --> 00:38:18.559
And then we link it to, for instance, the digital product passport.
00:38:18.559 --> 00:38:22.719
You can see now what cotton did I use, what transport, what link.
00:38:22.719 --> 00:38:24.320
Is it over 30 days old?
00:38:24.320 --> 00:38:25.360
Can I take it back?
00:38:25.360 --> 00:38:29.760
Or do you need a dynamic change of you can take it back, but you're not getting a refund?
00:38:29.760 --> 00:38:38.960
You know, there's all these touch points that now become very powerful because of almost the mandate that's come through, which is all for a good reason.
00:38:39.599 --> 00:38:48.719
Yes, and again, tying it back to the standards, but making sure that the standards are open enough such that we can use RFID RFID technology.
00:38:48.719 --> 00:38:50.639
I'm really having trouble saying that.
00:38:50.639 --> 00:39:00.719
That you can utilize RFID technology in collaboration with other technologies to be able to give you that full end-to-end visibility.
00:39:01.039 --> 00:39:15.760
And with that end-to-end part, and if we scanned whether it's a phone, because we know some phone manufacturers are looking to build RFID readers, the UHF ones, into the phone, so that will be coming through in the next few, shall we say, years.
00:39:15.760 --> 00:39:21.199
But if you then scan your product, you'll get information of how to, shall we say, recycle it?
00:39:21.199 --> 00:39:26.079
Are you going to have the option to put it on a third-party resale site?
00:39:26.079 --> 00:39:28.559
You know, so you can really close that loop.
00:39:28.559 --> 00:39:30.559
Now, that doesn't just stop at retail.
00:39:30.559 --> 00:39:44.079
That could be white goods, you know, it could be tables, it could be garden furniture, it could be anything that you want to make unique, whether it's medical instruments, you know, it's how do you safely either discard it?
00:39:44.079 --> 00:39:58.079
And if we looked at electrical goods, obviously we've got the electrical recycling parts that we could break that part down and put it back in to the raw material, you know, like when someone says donate your phone, we'll break it down, we'll use the key components.
00:39:58.079 --> 00:40:03.360
So if you could scan a product, get all that information, then that's got to be good for the world, right?
00:40:03.760 --> 00:40:04.239
Absolutely.
00:40:04.239 --> 00:40:05.360
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
00:40:05.599 --> 00:40:07.760
Really good ecology points there, Paul.
00:40:07.760 --> 00:40:17.760
Uh Kam, I've got a question with regard to what is the significant impact of RFID tags, particularly from a return on investment perspective?
00:40:17.760 --> 00:40:28.800
Because obviously we've spoken about the tags and we've spoken about retail a fair bit, but like what's what's that return on investment like if you're a warehouse or you're a 3 PL?
00:40:29.039 --> 00:40:30.639
What is what does that look like?
00:40:30.960 --> 00:40:41.039
Yeah, so most of the retail and most of the discussions we've had today have been about retail and in the stores and the ROI in the stores with accurate inventory and loss prevention.
00:40:41.039 --> 00:40:45.119
But we're seeing more and more deployments in the supply chain.
00:40:45.119 --> 00:40:45.599
Okay.
00:40:45.599 --> 00:40:48.960
So what am I getting from my factories from around the world?
00:40:48.960 --> 00:40:56.320
Because that's large volumes, no one was really checking anything because it was just not practical.
00:40:56.320 --> 00:41:06.800
Now, with the uh RFID readers, whether the fixed readers or the tunnels, when goods come in in the inbound, they're now going through a read point.
00:41:06.800 --> 00:41:10.719
So we will know against the supplier there should be 10,000 products.
00:41:10.719 --> 00:41:15.039
Okay, it might be 10,000 products, but they're the wrong colour and the wrong sizes.
00:41:15.039 --> 00:41:15.599
Okay.
00:41:15.599 --> 00:41:20.880
So then you've got the supplier compliance, and you can do chargebacks to your factories.
00:41:20.880 --> 00:41:23.519
And that way more and more retailers are doing that.
00:41:23.519 --> 00:41:32.400
And then when you go to the factories, they're putting in the RFID solutions to say to the to the brand owners, this is what you're getting at an item level.
00:41:32.400 --> 00:41:35.840
So it's gone all the way back on the supply chain.
00:41:35.840 --> 00:41:46.880
And as well as having invent accurate accuracy in your DCs, you're also getting chargebacks from your uh suppliers as well.
00:41:46.880 --> 00:41:50.880
So that's all adding to the to the to the ROI.
00:41:50.880 --> 00:41:52.960
And we're seeing a big shift on that.
00:41:52.960 --> 00:41:54.800
Uh more and more brands.
00:41:54.800 --> 00:41:57.519
Uh if they've got their own DCs, they're putting it in.
00:41:57.519 --> 00:42:08.480
If they've got the three PLs, as as uh Paul mentioned earlier on, they're all looking at using the technology because they've got a big DC and it may be with multiple brands.
00:42:08.480 --> 00:42:08.960
Okay.
00:42:08.960 --> 00:42:12.800
So they might be doing something for brand A or brand B or brand C.
00:42:12.800 --> 00:42:17.519
And if it's source tagged, let's make sure we we count it on inbound.
00:42:17.519 --> 00:42:22.480
And then within the inbound, within the DC, they might be picking and packing and outbound.
00:42:22.480 --> 00:42:25.599
So, yeah, a lot more in the supply chain now what we're seeing.
00:42:25.920 --> 00:42:47.039
And just to just to finish on that very quickly, is obviously if we touched on the um loosely about the birth of the tag, and if we're uploading that to say the Peak uh host system, you can almost create a virtual ASN to Advanced Shipping Note that the DC says, I now know I've got X amount of items to be received, and therefore the tunnel now becomes semi-automated or fully automated.
00:42:47.039 --> 00:42:57.280
Therefore, you just need an operative to take it off the palette, put it through the tunnel, you've got the comparison, and you can easily do a yep, green light, red light scenario as well.
00:42:57.280 --> 00:43:08.400
So that whole speed through the warehouse or from source tagging to warehouse and then through the warehouse increases as well because of good visibility for when that tag was born.
00:43:09.199 --> 00:43:09.840
Hugely.
00:43:09.840 --> 00:43:21.280
So this isn't just about the technology, it's not just about printing tags or encoding tags or putting it on a box or inside a garment or a pair of shoes or whatever.
00:43:21.280 --> 00:43:32.400
The whole knock-on effect to this really will improve the speed, the traceability, the visibility throughout a complete end-to-end supply chain.
00:43:32.400 --> 00:43:36.320
And it's virtually vertical agnostic, right?
00:43:36.800 --> 00:43:37.119
Yeah.
00:43:37.119 --> 00:43:57.599
And that touches on another point for the return on investment is obviously if you're faster from source tagging into your distribution, you've got more accurate data, you less stock holding because you're now not saying, Oh, I better order another two of them or three of them because I don't know actually where they are in the supply chain, or they hit the DC, but I can't find them.
00:43:57.599 --> 00:43:58.159
Right.
00:43:58.159 --> 00:44:06.719
So you can see you're you've got a Return on investment for almost doing nothing, just getting that tag, that source tagging alive and onto a system.
00:44:07.679 --> 00:44:12.559
So clearly, this isn't the year of RFID, kind of bringing it back full circle, Kam.
00:44:12.559 --> 00:44:13.840
And okay, you were right.
00:44:13.840 --> 00:44:15.280
So I'll I'll give you that, Kam.
00:44:15.280 --> 00:44:17.440
This clearly isn't the year of RFID.
00:44:17.440 --> 00:44:22.880
However, just in closing, and I I feel today's conversation has been really, really good and really insightful.
00:44:22.880 --> 00:44:25.840
So just in closing, Kam, I'll come to you first.
00:44:25.840 --> 00:44:38.400
If someone was thinking about deploying RFID or even improving the RFID systems that they have in place, what three things would you tell them to do?
00:44:39.280 --> 00:44:39.679
Yeah.
00:44:39.679 --> 00:44:42.639
So the technology works, okay?
00:44:42.639 --> 00:44:48.480
So don't try to think it's it's a technology, the hard the hardware has been improved, the tags have been improved.
00:44:48.480 --> 00:44:51.440
So that discussion for many years has gone away.
00:44:51.440 --> 00:44:55.760
Don't think the tag is expensive because that's one of the myths for many, many years.
00:44:55.760 --> 00:44:56.960
It's too expensive.
00:44:56.960 --> 00:44:58.480
Do the ROI.
00:44:58.480 --> 00:44:58.800
Okay?
00:44:58.800 --> 00:45:07.519
And there's enough data out there from all these retailers that need these different verticals to put the numbers in and you can you'll get an ROI.
00:45:07.519 --> 00:45:09.599
Just with the low-hanging fruit.
00:45:09.599 --> 00:45:13.920
That's the business, the pain points and the ROI.
00:45:13.920 --> 00:45:22.639
I would also, and what I'm seeing more and more is a lot of companies have got uh automation departments and transformation departments.
00:45:22.639 --> 00:45:28.079
Years ago we used to go to loss prevention because it was a security tag, and that's where RFID started.
00:45:28.079 --> 00:45:32.880
And it was hard to get past, then it was IT, then it was retail operations.
00:45:32.880 --> 00:45:42.639
But now most mature, sophisticated retailers or businesses have got a transformation department looking three years, five years.
00:45:42.639 --> 00:45:46.159
And and then within that they've got an automation department.
00:45:46.159 --> 00:45:54.719
There's enough experts out there and knowledge of people doing these sort of things already that they they know the best practices.
00:45:54.719 --> 00:45:57.119
So that's like that's the two.
00:45:57.119 --> 00:46:11.039
And also my third one is choose the a partner or partners who have been around for a while and still gonna be on that journey because there'll be a lot of consolidation in the industry and a lot of companies coming and going.
00:46:11.039 --> 00:46:19.360
But it this is a journey three, five, ten, fifteen years, and picking your your your right partners with the ecosystem.
00:46:19.840 --> 00:46:21.119
Yeah, absolutely.
00:46:21.119 --> 00:46:31.039
And and I remember as we were preparing for this, one of the things you had said was that you know not everybody stays in one company, people move around the industry, yeah, right.
00:46:31.039 --> 00:46:36.159
So actually, they don't leave that knowledge when they've exited that company.
00:46:36.159 --> 00:46:43.440
So actually, it is worth working with all sorts of people to bring a lot of this to life.
00:46:43.440 --> 00:46:49.280
And particularly what you were saying, you work in the Peak Technologies team that looks at kind of automation.
00:46:49.280 --> 00:46:56.480
So, you know, would someone pick the phone up to you and say, Kam, I heard your podcast on RFID, here's a pile of questions, can you help me?
00:46:56.480 --> 00:46:59.440
Like what what would what would they do in that scenario?
00:46:59.760 --> 00:47:00.000
Yeah.
00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:20.559
So we would qualify what industry they're in, what their pain points are, do the initial qualification, and then we'd really want to go onto site and see the the the operations in real life, the speed, the density, the surroundings, all of these things, and we can make recommendations on the different technologies that we use.
00:47:20.559 --> 00:47:46.800
But going back to your point about the people, there are so many people who have done RFID deployments, and when a new company wants to do an RFID deployment, they know now they can tap on to the knowledge for the advertised for these jobs, and and and we're seeing years ago it was difficult, you know, it was hard because the technology didn't quite work, or the the processes didn't work.
00:47:46.800 --> 00:47:51.760
It was, you know, it was i the early adopters had a lot pain, but they've done the hard work.
00:47:51.760 --> 00:47:56.320
Now they've just all reap the benefits of all the hard work everyone's done.
00:47:56.320 --> 00:48:03.199
And the people who go into these businesses, they already have a blue blueprint on how we should do a deployment.
00:48:03.199 --> 00:48:07.599
What is required at the end user's point to make this successful?
00:48:07.599 --> 00:48:13.280
And you know, that I've seen that more and more in the last few deployments I've done, which have been really refreshing.
00:48:13.280 --> 00:48:13.760
Yeah.
00:48:14.559 --> 00:48:15.199
Good to know.
00:48:15.280 --> 00:48:15.519
Yeah.
00:48:15.519 --> 00:48:19.760
Paul, obviously, you work for Sato, you work for a technology company.
00:48:19.760 --> 00:48:22.000
The same three questions to you.
00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:29.760
So if someone was looking at deploying RFID or looking at improving what they have, what three things would you tell them to do?
00:48:30.239 --> 00:48:37.199
I would um probably be in parallel with some of the stuff that Kam said, okay, we've obviously got to understand the pain point, right?
00:48:37.199 --> 00:48:39.199
Will RFID tick the pain point?
00:48:39.199 --> 00:48:41.199
Will it tick your process flow?
00:48:41.199 --> 00:48:49.119
You know, because obviously RFID, you don't want to introduce process, you want to take a process step out and make it semi-automated or fully automated.
00:48:49.119 --> 00:48:52.320
Also, will the technology actually stack up?
00:48:52.320 --> 00:48:55.519
And if so, how far through end-to-end?
00:48:55.519 --> 00:49:07.039
Okay, because you might find that if we looked at some of the healthcare and potentially some of the autoclave and some of the harsher chemicals, you might get to a point where you have to stop.
00:49:07.039 --> 00:49:11.039
And same as time manufacturing, before it gets pre-molded, you might have to stop.
00:49:11.039 --> 00:49:13.039
Do you re-tag it or is it that enough?
00:49:13.039 --> 00:49:14.960
So it's really understanding that journey.
00:49:14.960 --> 00:49:27.519
But one thing I would say is go to a trusted partner or an OEM or someone like Sato and Peak combined that brings that proven technology, the proven knowledge.
00:49:27.519 --> 00:49:34.400
We've been around, we've understood it, we've got a lot of experience in this of know what does work and what doesn't work.
00:49:34.400 --> 00:49:53.119
And also within the customer, try and build a small team from IT, brand protection, customer experience, supply chain operations, and that level and have a team across different departments because otherwise you're going to bounce around and you're not really then going to get a clear picture.
00:49:53.119 --> 00:50:00.719
So if a customer is looking at it, I'd say try and make a small team together from their multiple departments or multiple touch points.
00:50:02.719 --> 00:50:05.440
Yeah, I and that bit's really quite important.
00:50:05.440 --> 00:50:16.480
It's not just the technology, it's the integration of that technology across the organization through not just the technology itself, but also more importantly, the people.
00:50:16.480 --> 00:50:18.559
So love what you said there, Paul.
00:50:18.559 --> 00:50:19.599
Absolutely love it.
00:50:19.599 --> 00:50:26.719
So, really, just to kind of summarize, in terms of RFID, it's it's been out there, it's been out there for a long time.
00:50:26.719 --> 00:50:43.599
People know what's going on, it's mature, it's improved in terms of process, it's improved in terms of technology, but also just in terms of the people, dare I say, we've been there and bought the t-shirt and maybe sometimes recycled the t-shirt as well.
00:50:43.599 --> 00:50:44.320
Yeah.
00:50:44.320 --> 00:50:45.119
Yeah.
00:50:45.119 --> 00:50:45.599
Yep.
00:50:45.599 --> 00:50:46.239
Fantastic.
00:50:46.480 --> 00:50:48.320
And hides and hides some of the scars.
00:50:49.280 --> 00:50:58.000
And hid some of the scars! Absolutely! I couldn't agree more! Gentlemen, it's been wonderful to have you on the podcast.
00:50:58.000 --> 00:50:59.840
So, Kam, thank you so much for joining us.
00:50:59.840 --> 00:51:01.599
Paul, thank you so much for joining us again.
00:51:01.599 --> 00:51:12.159
I did say we'll put a pin in the map, maybe for getting you back on the podcast, but a little bit later on down the line, would you be both willing to come back on the podcast to talk a little bit more about RFID?
00:51:12.719 --> 00:51:13.280
Absolutely.
00:51:13.840 --> 00:51:14.239
It's been great.
00:51:14.239 --> 00:51:15.119
Yeah, it's been fun.
00:51:15.119 --> 00:51:16.960
It's been so thanks, Kam, thanks, Paul.
00:51:16.960 --> 00:51:18.960
It's been yeah, it's been great fun from our side.
00:51:18.960 --> 00:51:21.360
So absolutely welcome another opportunity.
00:51:21.760 --> 00:51:23.039
Absolute pleasure to have you both.
00:51:23.199 --> 00:51:25.280
Gentlemen, thank you so much for being on the podcast.
00:51:25.440 --> 00:51:26.320
Yeah, thank you.
00:51:26.800 --> 00:51:27.360
Bye-bye.
00:51:28.079 --> 00:51:31.199
So, is 2026 the year of RFID?
00:51:31.199 --> 00:51:33.280
Um, no, it would seem.
00:51:33.280 --> 00:51:36.320
However, that was never the interesting question, anyway.
00:51:36.320 --> 00:51:44.559
The interesting question is what happens when the technology stops being a retail story and starts being a full supply chain one?
00:51:44.559 --> 00:51:53.840
Hundreds of tag permutations using the correct industry standards and the right answers still start with the pain point, not the product.
00:51:53.840 --> 00:52:01.199
Data at every point in the chain, loss prevention, anti-counterfeiting, analytics that together actually tell you something.
00:52:01.199 --> 00:52:07.280
And the biggest takeaway from both Kam and Paul is that RFID doesn't replace the barcode.
00:52:07.280 --> 00:52:08.320
It compliments it.
00:52:08.320 --> 00:52:13.760
Essentially, hybrid is not a compromise, it's the direction of travel.
00:52:13.760 --> 00:52:23.199
A huge, huge thank you to both of my guests, Kam Pancholi and Paul Freeman, for bringing their many years of real-world experience to this conversation.
00:52:23.199 --> 00:52:29.840
The insights they shared from the trenches of actual implementation are exactly why we do this show.
00:52:29.840 --> 00:52:35.440
If today's discussion resonated with you, do consider subscribing so you don't miss out on what's coming next.
00:52:35.440 --> 00:52:40.719
If something we discussed sparked an idea for your own organization, please don't keep it to yourself.
00:52:40.719 --> 00:52:45.039
Do share this episode with a colleague who may be facing similar challenges.
00:52:45.039 --> 00:52:50.320
Better yet, reach out to us and tell us how you're applying these insights in your own world.
00:52:50.320 --> 00:52:54.719
Those stories often become our best future episodes.
00:52:54.719 --> 00:53:02.639
Thank you so much for listening and do catch up with us next time on the Connected Technologies podcast by Peak Technologies.
