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[Courtney] Why? Hello? It is we: Courtney and
Royce! The internet's favorite Asexual vampire
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couple. And today is the moment that I'm sure you
have all been waiting for, because we are going to
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talk about vampires. Anne Rice's vampires, to be
precise. Now, when I was young, I read a good deal
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of The Vampire Chronicles. I can't claim to have
read every single one because, apparently, Anne
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Rice was publishing these things up until just a
few years ago. But definitely like, throughout my
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teenage years, the first four or five of them
were definitely my jam. And especially, as a
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young Asexual, who did not have any good asexual
representation to sort of look to.. or admire…
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I kind of found a pseudo-aspirational form
of my sexuality in The Vampire Chronicles.
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[Courtney] And to those of you listening,
especially those of you who have not read it
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and probably those of you who are allosexual and
are not ace like me, this might come as a surprise
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to you because I rarely if ever see people talking
about the Asexuality of Anne Rice's vampires.
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Because the driving factor in all of the
conversations around vampire sexuality
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in Anne Rice's world is they're pretty gay!
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Or at least, they are all very bisexual.
And now Royce, You haven't read these books
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before you met me. Did you realize that
these vampires are in fact, Asexual?
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[Royce] I didn't really have a lot of information.
Anne Rice wasn't really ever on my radar until
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someone sat me down, and was like, “Hey, let's
watch Interview with the Vampire.” Which is fine…
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[Courtney] The movie is… I'd argue, not great.
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[Royce] But in it, there is no clear… what we
mortals would call physical affection. And I
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don't know if that's a product– watching
the movies, I don't know if that is just
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a product of the 90s or… you're going to get
into the book itself… but there was a lot of
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homo-romanticism at least, between the the
most prominent characters. But there was
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nothing that indicated that any
sort of fornication was happening.
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[Courtney] Yes, and– and we're definitely
going to talk about that more here.
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Because from my experience… Well,
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actually first, before we go into this, when you
were sat down to watch this movie, goodness knows
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when… it's an old movie. It could have been at
any time… Was that the moment you realized “Oh,
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this is why people tell me I look like…” Who do
you look like? Is it Tom Cruise or the other one?
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[Royce] Tom Cruise. Yeah, it’s– it’s–
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[Courtney] I'm not up to date with my sex symbols.
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[Royce] It's Lestat. And, and I
think that was the preface. Like,
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someone had watched Interview Of The Vampire
and was, like, name-dropped that character,
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and I didn't really know much about it. And
then, finally, was like “Let's watch this movie.”
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[Courtney] Gotcha.
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[Royce] And then I, since then I've
gotten a couple of passing comments
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in public of “You look kind of like Tom Cruise
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out of a certain movie.” Which is not not
always Interview with a Vampire. But, usually.
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[Courtney] Which is so interesting because
I mean, not really… I mean the long hair,
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you got going for you, same
as he does in that movie.
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I guess there's maybe an argument
to be made that you have, like,
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somewhat similar noses, but I think general…
like, bone structure is much different, but…
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[Royce] I think that people are often off when
they try to make appearance comparisons between
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two people from memory. Like the number of times
I've heard that I have a doppelganger, but I'm
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pretty sure that if I stood side by side with
that person, I would look nothing like them….?
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[Courtney] Sure. Sure. See, I get that a lot
less often than you do too, which I think is
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weird. Like I don't often have people being
like you look exactly like someone I know.
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[Royce] That's because you are racially ambiguous.
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[Courtney] That's true.
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[Royce] And thus, less likely– there
is a smaller chance of someone else
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being racially ambiguous in the same combination.
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[Courtney] That's true. So, so, whereas you, as a
white person, get “I know someone who looks just
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like you.” I, as a racially ambiguous person, get
“What are you? You're so exotic.” So horrible. Oh,
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we're gonna have to talk about that at much
greater length in an episode where the topic lends
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itself better to that. But we're here to talk
about vampires in fact. And the thing I wanted to
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get back to, the thing I've noticed as someone who
was an avid reader of these books at a young age,
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talking to people after the fact, everyone reads
these books differently. Absolutely everyone. My
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gay friends say it is filled with gay vampire sex.
It is very homosexual. And I argue no, not quite.
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[Royce] It does appear to be homo-romantic,
but that is a different story.
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[Courtney] It's a different story! And
this is where, I think, a good grasp of
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what we've touched on– on a bit before, the split
attraction model, which is something that not all,
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but a lot of Asexual people use because… you
know, you and I, we are both Asexual but we have
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some level of attraction for one another, we are,
in fact, married and have been for a long time,
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quite happily. So our attraction isn't sexual
in nature, but it's a different type and some
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of the common types of attraction you'll hear
are romantic attraction, aesthetic attraction,
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you might hear sensual attraction. And they all
have different connotations. And from every allo
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I know, no matter what their orientation is,
they read these books and they read sex. And
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when I first read these as a teenager, I was
baffled when I learned this. Because I was like,
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“What book are you reading? I do not
see the sex with which you refer.”
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[Royce] That reminds me, we should
talk about The Curious Sofa sometime.
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[Courtney] Oh my gosh. Yeah, we're gonna
talk a lot about Edward Gorey in 2022.
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Don't you worry. So my gay friends see gay sex.
But the really, really unfortunate thing is all of
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the straight people I know
who have read this book,
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see something bordering on pedophilic, and
incestuous, because everyone sees sex somehow.
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[Royce] Because two adult men in a
relationship that has homo-romantic
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undertones have a… daughter… figure?
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[Courtney] Yeah, yeah, so we'll get into that. I
will have direct quotes from people of my past,
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who might have read these books. But Royce,
since you haven't read it, and I'm sure
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some of our listeners out there haven't read
it, I'm going to give everyone the cliff notes,
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and then I've pulled a few direct quotes from
the book to make my case that the vampires are
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definitively Asexual. So, we're starting at the
very first book: Interview With the Vampire. And
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one thing I kind of just want to get it out of
the way, because I don't want anyone to listen
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to this and think “Oh, this must be a great book.
It must be great for representation.” I don't want
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that to necessarily be anyone's takeaway… because
if I read this book right now, for the very first
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time, it would absolutely hit differently than
it did at the time that I read it. So, Anne Rice,
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she passed away near the end of 2021. Many people
in the queer community were rightfully so grieving
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her loss, because a lot of queer people with
varying identities saw themselves in her books.
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[Royce] I didn't realize that this book
was actually published in the 70s.
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[Courtney] Yes, quite controversial at the time!
So, these books are from the 70s. She was 80 when
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she recently passed away. She is very much ‘woman
enraptured with southern history.’ Maybe you know
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where I'm going. So, I will never claim that she
did everything perfectly. And one of the things
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that was even more jarring on a reread, than it
was the first time through years ago, was just
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the way she handled, like, southern plantations.
Because the two primary vampires we’re going to be
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talking about today are Louis and Lestat. I think
a lot of people in this discourse about these, you
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know, “sympathetic vampires” forget the fact that
Louis was a literal plantation owner, and enslaved
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many, many Black people… And it's just not
very– it's icky to read a lot of the time.
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[Courtney] And I know some people will try to make
the argument, like, “Well, that's history. You're
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starting the book in the Seventeen Hundreds… Of
course someone in the South has…” It's still not
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handled well. This is not good, like, historical
fiction in that sense. There are some icky lines
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about how, like, “These aren't the African
Americans that you picture today. These– these
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were people from Africa who are very tribal,” and
very much like the– the “magical minority” trope,
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like, these enslaved people who they’re
occasionally feeding on as vampires, they're the
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ones who almost blow the vampires’ cover, because
they “know about magical thing– things. They
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know about Voodoo. They know about these tribal
things.” So they're more, you know, more mystical,
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more superstitious. So it's not good. It's
quite bad. So I want to get that out of the way,
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because I don't want to just not address that
elephant in the room where it comes to this book.
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[Courtney] But before I talk about the the gayness,
the Asexuality, how all of my allo friends
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have read this… I want to talk about just people's
general conceptions because it's an old enough
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book. It is now also an old enough movie. It's
a very, very large well-known franchise. So even
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people who haven't read the book, and even people
who haven't seen the movie, a lot of those people
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still have an idea of what it's about. And I've,
even quite recently, seen people make the case for
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“Oh, I didn't know that there was any Asexuality
to it. I thought there was a lot of bisexuality,
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a lot of homosexuality, but she deals with
alternative family structures in a really
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good positive light.” And I've seen people make
that argument over and over again. Like, “the
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alternative family structure is very good”. It is–
it is representation. That doesn't mean it's good.
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[Royce] Do you think a lot of that
comes from the movie, removing a lot
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of sort of side content, where
Lestat is generally horrible?
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[Courtney] Well, he's not great in the movie
either. Like, they watered down a lot in the
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movie, don't get me wrong, but they don't portray
him as, like, a loving husband. It's so… let's–
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let's– let's go into this! So, Louis is a Southern
plantation owner, Lestat is a vampire who still
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has a mortal elderly living father, who is blind
and needs caretaking, and he decides to ask Louis
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if he can take his life, turn him into
a vampire, if they can live together
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on his plantation mansion and take care of his
father, until his father dies. And more so than
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I think any other book I've ever read– I think
there's a lot of selective reading going on,
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because whether you say they are homosexual,
whether you say they're Asexual, whether you
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say they're gay and ace, a lot of people find
the Louis-Lestat relationship to be some level
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of aspirational, and it absolutely is not. And I
want to make that very, very clear off the bat.
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[Royce] Future podcast episode coming
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out later about all of the toxic
allo relationships in media.
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[Courtney] Well, that's exactly it, like, in
the 70s Anne Rice was sitting here being like,
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“there are so many toxic allo-cishet
relationships, that the cishets can aspire to,
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we don't have any toxic homo-romantic asexual
relationships for those folks, to look up
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to it. Let me fix that.” [laughs] So I pulled this
excerpt because I really want to drive home that,
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yes, Lestat and Louis lived together for
a very long time; I wouldn't even say that
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there was anything justifiably romantic about
it. Like, if anything, it was queerplatonic,
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but there– there was not any reciprocated
love happening, right from the get-go.
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[Royce] Well, you mentioned that they pretty
much hated each other. So, it's– kind of sounds
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more like not even queerplatonic, it was–
they were more just bound by circumstance,
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both being immortal creatures that
couldn't really exist in society.
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[Courtney] In a way. I mean Lestat was very,
very much abusive, and very much trying to
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keep Louis with him. Even when Louis tried to
break away. So in that case, it was a very, very
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abusive toxic relationship. But this– this
excerpt I pulled is from like The Night,
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Louis is in the process of becoming a vampire,
it's the– the first night of the rest of his
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immortal life. He is arguing with Lestat
because they've been arguing right from–
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right from the start. And they haven't
gotten Louis his own coffin yet.
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So dawn is approaching, and Lestat is like, “Hey
stop being a baby. Get in the coffin.” Because,
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because Louis is a little concerned about
getting in the coffin. And so Lestat says,
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[Courtney] [reading] «Now I'm getting into
the coffin. He finally said to me in the most
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disdainful tone ‘And you will get in, on top of
me, if you know, what's good for you.’ And I did,
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I lie face down on him, utterly confused by my
absence of dread and filled with a distaste for
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being so close to him, handsome and intriguing
though he was. And he shut the lid.» And they go
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to sleep like that, and not even a paragraph
later after he wakes up in the morning,
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his first true– wakes up in the evening, rather,
his first true evening as a full-fledged vampire.
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[Courtney] [reading] «The first thing which
became apparent to me, even while Lestat and
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I were loading the coffin into a hearse and
stealing another coffin from the mortuary,
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was that I did not like Lestat at all. I was far
from being his equal yet, but I was infinitely
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closer to him than I had been before the death
of my body. I can't really make this clear to
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you for the obvious reason that you are now as I
was before my body died, you cannot understand.
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But before I died, Lestat was absolutely the
most overwhelming experience I'd ever had.»
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[Courtney] So this is where the selective reading
comes in, because people hear words like he's
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handsome, he's intriguing, this is an overwhelming
experience… and the word experience is italicized.
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So, there's definitely that, like, vampire
mystique to it, and vampires are often very,
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very sexy in their portrayals like this. But a
lot of people seem to skip over that he's like,
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“I don't like Lestat one bit. Yes,
he's handsome, but I hate that guy!”
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[Royce] Hearing you read that passage, it actually
makes me think more of the commonly attributed,
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vampiric power of hypnosis or manipulation where
he says “you as a mortal wouldn't understand
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this.” But when Louis was a mortal, he found this
person intoxicating and now that he is a vampire,
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it seems more like he is freed from
Lestat's power in the same way.
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[Courtney] I think that could– that could be a
fair reading of it. I hadn't thought about it
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specifically in that way, but I think that's
just as valid a reading as any I've heard.
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[Royce] I think there are many cases
at least in the movie, where a vampire
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looks upon a mortal and compels them to do
something. Against their better judgment.
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[Courtney] Yeah, that's definitely a vampire
trope. And when people are talking about,
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like, you know, “Anne Rice's vampires are very
gay, they slept in the same coffin together.”
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Exactly that one time. And it was because
they didn't get him a new coffin yet. And
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they went out and got Louis his own coffin
the very next day, and even that very night
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sleeping in the coffin together, he was like,
“I was filled with disdain for being so close
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to him.” And it's like nothing aspirational
about that. It sounds like a horrible situation.
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[Courtney] And so I suppose that could
be… there are sort of two different allo
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schools of thought that I've encountered,
where sleeping in the coffin together
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is an allegory for sex. But then the other take
is, I suppose, a little more promiscuous, it's the
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drinking blood is an allegory for
sex. Neither take I am fond of.
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And so, to go back to your point, Royce, about
just circumstantially needing to be together…
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They do touch on that a bit because Louis is being
interviewed, hence Interview With The Vampire.
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And so after he tells the story about how
he became a vampire, I took this excerpt:
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[Courtney] [reading] «’And there you were,’
said the boy after a pause, ‘with another
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vampire you hated.’ ‘But I had to stay with
him,’ answered the vampire. ‘As I've told you,
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he had me at a great disadvantage. He hinted
there was much I didn't know. And must know.
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And that he alone could tell me.’»
So, right off the bat, there–
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there is an abusive dynamic because Lestat
is manipulating Louis by withholding
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information from him. Information, which as a new
vampire, could mean life or death. At this point,
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Louis doesn't know what can kill a
vampire, if anything can kill a vampire.
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He doesn't know the rules or how to stay safe
and Lestat is overtly keeping that over his head
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to keep him there. I also underlined this line
because I thought it really drove my point home.
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[Courtney] [reading] «I positively loathed
Lestat.» And I guess, I mean, truth be told,
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because I have seen people take it either
way, like “Oh sleeping in the same coffin,
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that's basically sex” or “Drinking each other's
blood, that's practically sex.” Even if you take
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that take, which I kind of think personally
is a weird take. That only happened once each,
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between the two of them. Like Lestat, turned
Louis into a vampire, by drinking his blood and
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giving some blood back for him to drink, that
happened the one time. And then, they slept in a
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coffin together that one time by sheer necessity,
and neither one seemed super jazzed about it. And,
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you know, they pretty much go on like that for
a while. They continue living on the plantation
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with Lestat's elderly dying father. Louis still
has mortal relatives who are alive at this point.
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And in the next chapter we have another
example of just what I was saying, Louis says:
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[Courtney] [reading]«And I realized that I'd
tolerated him this long because of self-doubt.
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I'd fooled myself into believing I stayed for
the old man and for my sister and her husband,
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but I stayed with Lestat because I was afraid.
He did know essential secrets as a vampire,
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which I could not discover alone. And more
important because he was the only one of my kind,
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whom I knew. I hated him, and wanted
to leave him. Yet, could I leave?»
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This is page 63 of this book. He's already
saying I hate him and I want to leave.
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[Royce] And self-preservation
was the reason for staying.
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[Courtney] [sing-songy] Sounds like
an abusive relationship to me. So,
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another allo take I hear is “all of
Anne Rice's vampires are bisexual.”
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And there's definitely solid evidence for some of
them potentially being bisexual or at least pre…
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pre-vampirism, still as mortals they might
have been asexual, or bisexual rather,
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because Courtney is making the point that
all vampires are asexual. I will back up
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these claims with evidence, I assure you. And even
even in vampirism, you know, people say, “Oh well,
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Louis and Lestat are definitely a gay couple. And
it– it says that Lestat's favorite human to kill
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is a young man.” Some people also read something
at least bordering on sexual with that.
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[Courtney] But this was actually
a scene, it was almost,
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almost verbatim– which actually made it into
the movie where Lestat brings home a couple of
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prostitutes and he… he likes to play
with his food… which is something Louis’s
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talking– constantly talking about
how much he hates how he'll, like,
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sort of mess with people before he kills them.
Because Louis’s not into killing. He doesn't like
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it. In fact, he lives exclusively on rats for a
while because he doesn't want to take human life.
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But I found this very, very interesting because
some people say “Well, Lestat’s not just gay,
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he's definitely bi because he also, you know,
he's bringing home all these prostitutes.”
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[Courtney] But I underlined this line, because
I think I put a lot more weight on this than
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anyone else who has ever read these books… But
this line [reading] «The woman on the settee with
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him was already teasing him about his kisses,
his coldness, his lack of desire for her.» No
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one ever talks about that line. Everyone's like,
“Oh, he brings home female prostitutes.” It's like
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the prostitute's, like, “What's
your deal? Why aren't you into me?”
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His lack of desire… So, like
he's just messing with them.
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[Royce] Logically. It's probably
also a safer target for a vampire,
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regardless of orientation. Just
needing to fulfill their blood quota.
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[Courtney] Blood quota, I like that. So it's kind
of like at this moment, because Lestat is messing
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with these women. He kills one pretty quickly
and moves on to the next one. And they didn't
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hint at ‘no desire’ in the movie… but I believe
I have heard, anecdotally, that Tom Cruise, like,
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explicitly asked the movie to be, like,
a little straighter than the books.
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Like he still took the role, but I think he was
notably a little uncomfortable with how, like,
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at least vaguely homoerotic things were. So, I
don't know if that was an intentional change. Like
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okay, “You can actually be into the prostitute if
you want.” But it's at this point Louis is like
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“You're a monster. I can't be with you anymore!”
Because he's been like this for years, and now
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at this point– and he's again talking about or,
at least thinking to himself, “I'm gonna leave.”
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[Courtney] And this is when Louis himself actually
breaks down. And bites a young girl, Claudia.
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This is after he has not consumed a human
in a very long time. He's not into that,
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but he's still just like, really hungry. He meets
a young girl. Wrong place at the wrong time.
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Realizes he's sucking her blood, realizes she
hasn't died yet, and kind of calls it off.
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And tries– tries to end it. And that ends up being
the girl that they adopt. And I think that's where
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people start to say, you know, “unconventional
family structure, and that's good representation
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actually,” because it's two men who
adopt a young girl. And I'm sure this was
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much more scandalous in the 70s, but
this is still not an aspirational family.
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[Courtney] Lestat finds Louis doing this, makes fun
of him, pokes a lot of fun at him for doing this,
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and then is like, “Why don't we
make her a vampire, will adopt her,
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she'll be our daughter!” Great. Done. He
turns her into a vampire right then and there
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even though Louis doesn't really want
any part of it. He's very conflicted
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and that is when Lestat's like “Louis was
going to leave me… but now you're not,
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are you Louis? Because now we have a dear
precious daughter now, and you're gonna stay
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here and help me raise our lovely daughter.”
And Louis is like, “Damn you! You fiend!”
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[Courtney] So, I guess Lestat got what he
wanted for a little while. He stayed with him,
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even though he was very much planning
on leaving and trying to find a way to.
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But Lestat is not only awful to Louis.
He's also awful to their new daughter now,
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Claudia. She is five years old at the time
they made her a vampire. And for the first,
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like, few years where she's still, you know,
mentally a young girl, I think things are mostly
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fine. But as she starts to get her own, like
personality, Lestat just gets terrible to her.
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[Royce] Five? They made her
older for the movie, then.
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[Courtney] I gotta think they
have to, for the movie because…
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[Royce] …to actually be able to
get a reliable child actor. Yeah.
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[Courtney] But yeah, like, don't get me wrong.
She was very young. And once she does start
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growing up, mentally, her body doesn't change,
but she gets, you know, a little more independent,
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a little more headstrong. And like, Lestat cannot
handle that. And he's awful to her. In fact,
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Louis even says it at one point. [reading] «He
gave little suggestions that he might do her harm.
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‘A starving child is a frightful sight.’ He
said to me, ‘a starving vampire even worse.
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They'd hear her screams in Paris.’ He
said, were he to lock her away to die.
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But all this was meant for me to draw me close
and keep me there. Afraid of fleeing alone,
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I would not conceive of risking it with Claudia.»
So, every time I see people who are like,
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“This is great queer representation!
The two men adopted a daughter together
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in, like, the 1800s, it's great!” I'm like, no,
it's not. It's not good. It's very bad. In fact.
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[Royce] Yeah, one thing you said as we
were preparing for this podcast, was the
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fact that most people forget that Lestat was
the villain of the book for the most part.
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[Courtney] And I wonder how many of those people
it's just years removed, or it's selective
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reading, or if it's people who read more of the
series because the second book in the series,
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like, is about Lestat, his whole life. So I don't
know if people, you know, learn more about him,
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gain more sympathy to him, and then sort
of like, you know, retroactively forget
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the way he was written in this book or the
way he was described by Louis in this book.
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[Courtney] So for as much as I'm going to criticize
it, these books, like, definitely meant a great
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deal to me. And I'm going to be perfectly honest,
the first time I read Interview With The Vampire
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was actually because my partner at the time
lent me his copy. And this guy was very queer,
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he definitely read these books and was very much
like, “This is a great book. It is very queer,
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loved the vampires. love the darkness.” And
when I– when I borrowed the first book, like,
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I also loved it the first time I read it. But
that partner ended up being very, very abusive.
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And so I was like partially through the
second book when we finally called it quits.
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[Courtney] And so I wasn't about to, like, steal
this book or finish– finish this book. And so
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getting my own copies of this book was kind of a
big… just sort of like, moment of independence for
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myself also. Because it was actually the
very first online purchase I ever made.
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I went to eBay and I got a huge book–
or a huge haul of used Anne Rice books
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which included most of The Vampire Chronicles and
some of her other works. And when that big box of
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used books from eBay came to my door, that
was like such an oddly liberating feeling,
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and I just kept– kept reading The
Vampire Chronicles at that point.
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[Royce] Question: did your big book haul include
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Anne Rice's erotic novels
published under a different name?
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[Courtney] I think a couple of them, I
think a couple of them… and I didn't
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read them either. [laughs] By the way. I think
a couple of them were like, Anne rice like,
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originally published as Anne Rampling or whatever
the pseudonym was that she used for some of those
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originally. So, I mean, she has written
erotic novels and this is something people
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know about Anne Rice, so I think people are
also inclined to take the things she writes in
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a very sex-heavy direction, even when
there is no literal sex happening.
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[Courtney] But after this, you know, really
horrible breakup with this very, you know,
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abusive queer ex of mine… I– I dove
right into another bad decision. I dated
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a straight guy [laughs] and I didn't have
a need to read Interview With The Vampire
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even though that was in my big book haul because
I'd already read that one. So I was like, “Hey,
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new boyfriend. Why don't you read this book?
It's going to be a really good book.” And so
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ex was like “I like this book because because
of all the gay vampire sex.” But new boyfriend,
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halfway through this book, came to me dumbfounded,
and I kid you not, said [exaggerated shock] “Did
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Louis and Claudia fuck??” And I was like,
“What is wrong with you?? No! They absolutely
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not! What are you talking about?.” And he's
like, “I think they fucked!” [fumbles] “No,
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nope. Nope, that– that definitely didn't
happen. Show me where that happened.” He's like,
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“You gotta read between the lines, but it's super
obvious that Louis the vampire and his daughter,
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Claudia, the– the five-year-old vampire…
[sarcastic] they definitely fornicated.” And I
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could not figure out for the life
of me where he got– got that.
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[Royce] Red flag. Break up time.
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[Courtney] [burst out laughing] If only! If
only! Because listen, he was also– also abusive
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in… in fewer ways than the last ex was, but
still not good. And by this point, like I had
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read ahead. I– I knew the secrets of the lore.
I knew that canonically Anne Rice’s vampires
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do not have genital sex. There's a deep lore
reason for it, which we'll get to that later.
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I want you guys to know the lore reasons, like
anyone who says that these vampires are literally
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having genital sex, it's– it is canonically
not correct. But I think you have to get to
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the fourth book…? I want to say, I
know I'm going to have to reread to
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find exactly where that passage is, but I think
in the fourth book, they explain why that is.
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[Courtney] So when I read that I was very
vindicated. Because as a young Asexual,
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I was like, I also didn't pick up on how abusive
this was probably because I was in an abusive
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relationship of my own at the time, but I was
like, [intrigued] “Oh, the dark romance without
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any sex? This is perfect! And they had a daughter
without having sex? Oh, brilliant! Love it.” So,
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and that's kind of what really started this trend.
Those were the first two people whom I might
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have discussed this book with, or this series,
actually, in some cases. But it became a pattern.
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[Courtney] Because the more straight people
I knew who read this were like, “Yeah,
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that was definitely, like, kind of pedophilic
that he was just, like, sleeping with this
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vampire in a five-year-old body.” And I was
like, [forceful] “Where did you read this?”
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But then all the gay people I knew were like,
“Yeah, Louis and Lestat were having sex all
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the time.” And I was like, [dumbfounded] “Where
did you read that? I don't see it! Any of this,
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none of it.” But I'll give them this, they’re–
they're wrong, each and every one of them, but…
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[Royce] First of all.
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[Courtney] First of all, they're
wrong. On second readthrough,
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because in preparation for this
episode I re-read the first book,
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because it's been over a decade since– since I've
read it last. So I wanted to make sure that I had
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all my ducks in a row and that my memory was
fresh. I understand allos a little more now,
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than I did then. Because back then I was
just baffled by everyone all the time,
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and I didn't know any other Asexual people and
I was just like “Wait, you think this? Wait,
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you feel like that?” Like, I didn't understand
any of it. It was all foreign to me.
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Now that I have embraced my Asexuality. I've met
other Asexual people and I've had conversations
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about sex and sexuality with a variety of people,
knowing that we all experience things differently,
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I can't say I get the allos because I still think
they're very weird, but at least know a little
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more about how they think. And Anne Rice’s writing
style is very very lush. It is very flamboyant.
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It's very romanticized. And part of that is just
Anne Rice. I mean as I said, she has written,
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you know, erotic novels, which I don't
think I'm ever going to touch personally.
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[Royce] You had a really cringey
audiobook going for a while.
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[Courtney] It was horrible.
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Yeah. I'll tell the story real quick. So when I
was just in a Barnes & Noble several years ago,
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and there was, like, this brand new, like “The
Prince Lestat, the new edition of The Vampire
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Chronicles.” And I just saw this in Barnes & Noble
without hearing any news about this whatsoever.
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And I was like, “Anne Rice is still writing
novels in The Vampire Chronicles? What?” So,
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I just, like, bought it because why not, I
still haven't read it to be perfectly honest,
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00:34:55,680 --> 00:35:02,240
maybe I'll have to if we end up making this whole
thing a whole series. But I just, sort of like,
363
00:35:02,240 --> 00:35:06,240
googled that at that point. I was like “how many
Vampire Chronicles are there? Are there some I
364
00:35:06,240 --> 00:35:12,880
didn't know about?” And she made a crossover
series called The Lives of the Mayfair Witches,
365
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:17,680
which kind of, from what I understand, can
stand on its own but there are some crossover
366
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:21,840
characters at a certain point and it is very
evident that this is in the same universe.
367
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:25,520
[Courtney] And knowing that there is
some level of crossover, I thought, “Oh,
368
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:32,320
I should go and read these before I get onto
the new book just in case, you know, there's
369
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:37,600
some sort of big astonishing lore drop or
some character who's been added who I'm not
370
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:42,720
privy to yet.” So I was like, “what the heck?
I'll– I'll read The Lives of the Mayfair Witches.”
371
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,800
Oh my gosh. This– this is when
I did have a physical copy of,
372
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:53,680
but I was also just really busy with my Victorian
hairwork business at the time. So I was doing a
373
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:58,640
lot of time in the studio, working with my hands.
So I was kind of flipping back and forth between
374
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:04,640
reading the physical book and putting the
audiobook on. And it was downright painful
375
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:10,960
to listen to and read. Because it was just too
much! I don't even think this was considered an
376
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:17,200
erotic novel, so that really doesn't make me feel
good about what her actual erotic novels are… but
377
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:26,139
the sex was so frequent and unnecessary and just
uncomfortable, just awful. I hated it. [laughs]
378
00:36:26,139 --> 00:36:27,920
[Royce] Even coming into the room,
379
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:31,840
listening to the sex scenes played at two
times speed, they were still too long.
380
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:35,360
[Courtney] They were still too long! I
was listening to it on two-times speed,
381
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:37,040
because I was like “Get there!” Like,
“Get through it! Get through it!”
382
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,800
And then Royce would come into the room
with just, like, one eyebrow raised,
383
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:48,160
while I'm sitting there doing work, but my
entire face is just cringing and we're just both
384
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:52,560
highly uncomfortable and I'm sorry Royce,
that I put us both in this situation.
385
00:36:53,760 --> 00:37:02,080
Will never again go in blind to an Anne Rice
audiobook, or any book. Probably. It was awful…
386
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:08,000
[Royce] Question, before I get back into it. You
are familiar with the concept of mass hysteria
387
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:12,960
where a large group of people, generally
believes something in a panic. What do you
388
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:19,760
call something when a large group of society
collectively fanfictions a work of literature?
389
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:24,000
Because it kind of sounds like, that's what has–
what is happening with The Vampire Chronicles.
390
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:32,240
[Courtney] We call them threatened with legal
action! Because Anne Rice, famously hates fanfic.
391
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:40,240
And she– she like, outright has said, like
“Don't you dare make fanfiction of my characters.
392
00:37:40,240 --> 00:37:44,640
I can't bear to think of fanfic of
my characters.” And she would, like,
393
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:51,120
issue take down orders to fanfiction websites
and, like, actually send legal threats to people
394
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:57,840
who she found making fanfiction. And so she
has been like in modern day one of the least
395
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:07,280
supportive authors of the fanfiction community.
So no fanfiction of those vampires! Which is
396
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:13,280
very interesting. I'm not into fanfiction. I
haven't quite read fanfiction. I definitely don't
397
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:17,840
write fanfiction, but I know it is a lush and
thriving community, and I think, good for them.
398
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:22,400
[Royce] It definitely sounds like there's some
aspect of shipping culture here, where people
399
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:28,400
are ignoring all the red flags and pretending
that there is a happy couple at work here.
400
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:33,600
[Courtney] I mean honestly… I would love
this to be a happy functional couple.
401
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:38,560
Are you kidding me? Gay vampires with
their vampire daughter? Who are actually
402
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:43,760
a functional family unit? I would love that!
But that's not the fact of the matter. So,
403
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:50,560
truly… So, yeah, I can't claim to know
much about the shipping communities,
404
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:55,280
the fanfiction communities… but I do know
that Anne Rice is very unfriendly to them.
405
00:38:55,280 --> 00:39:01,280
[Courtney] So in just, like, getting back to
how I understand allos a little more now…
406
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:06,160
So on on my recent read through, I kind
of started seeing some of the words and
407
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:12,080
phrases where I'm like, “Oh, that's why you
thought that this meant sex.” Is just in a
408
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:16,080
lot of the words she uses. First of
all, she uses the word sensual a lot,
409
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:22,400
which people often conflate to be sexual.
And if you spend any amount of time
410
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:29,120
engaging with asexual discussion online, with the
Ace community, you should well know that they are
411
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:36,560
not necessarily the same. They can go hand-in-hand
for some people, but not always. And I never took
412
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:43,200
her use of the word sensual in these books to
be in an erotic direction. Because she makes it
413
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:50,320
very clear that vampires have heightened senses.
Every sense is heightened, from vision to smell,
414
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:56,720
absolutely everything. They did a horrendous job
of showing this in the movie. I don't know why
415
00:39:56,720 --> 00:40:02,880
they were like… utter failure of imagination
where they're like, “Let's take this statue,
416
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:09,360
that doesn't move and give it eyes that actually
move, once he's a vampire, because that'll show
417
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:14,520
them that vampires see things better than
humans.” like What??? Very, very weird.
418
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:18,960
[Courtney] But she's constantly talking
about how they can move faster than humans,
419
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:24,080
they can sense things better. So, when
she uses the word sensual, I always
420
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:31,120
took that to be in the literal sense of the
word, the heightened vampire senses. But
421
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:36,000
now that I have studied allos a little further,
I can see why they think that means sexy.
422
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:43,920
But she also starts to, at a certain point once
Claudia mentally grows a little older, she never
423
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:51,120
steps away from the father-daughter dynamic. Right
up until the end Claudia's being referred to as
424
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:56,640
daughter. But she will occasionally throw in a
line where will be like “father and daughter,
425
00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:02,880
lover and lover.” And teenage Courtney was like
“Lover, doesn't have to mean in a sex way.”
426
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:06,880
Adult Courtney knows that any allo who
reads that is going to think it's in a sex
427
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:13,920
way. But no! Louis was not having sex with
the body of a five-year-old! Absolutely not,
428
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:19,040
even though she is, now, like 64. And even
without getting into the deep lore. I have
429
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:24,240
proof of that later in this book too. Which–
I will pull excerpts. I will cite my sources.
430
00:41:24,240 --> 00:41:28,320
[Courtney] But yeah, so Claudia basically
sleeps in Louis’ coffin every single night,
431
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:34,960
for almost their entire vampire lives. At a
certain point she wants a coffin of her own,
432
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:38,560
and Louis is, like, deeply wounded by this. In
fact, he said [reading with emphasis] «which
433
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:45,040
left me more wounded than I would let her see. I
walked out after giving my gentlemanly consent.
434
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:49,600
For how many years had I slept with her as
if she were part of me, I couldn't know.»
435
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:53,520
And I just took that to be like any
parent, like my child's growing up
436
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:59,200
and doesn't need me anymore. Right? But even
after Claudia gets her own coffin, and she
437
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:05,200
still goes back to Louis’ coffin and
sleeps with him seemingly every night.
438
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:09,680
[Royce] Which kids being of
an age where they frequently,
439
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:15,360
like, climb into their parents bed, is a
very frequent well-documented behavior.
440
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:20,480
[Courtney] Yeah, absolutely! But yeah, so in– I
mean, this is the point she's growing up more.
441
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:26,080
She's wanting a little semblance of independence
but isn't really, you know, walking the walk so to
442
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:31,200
speak, because she's still climbing into Louis’
coffin, but she starts to really resent Lestat.
443
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:36,960
Which is probably for her own good, because
Lestat has literally threatened to kill her.
444
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:43,600
I feel like maybe that wasn't emphasized
quite enough. But yeah, yeah Louis describes,
445
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:50,240
you know, [reading] «She grew cold to Lestat and
our fragile domestic tranquility erupted with his
446
00:42:50,240 --> 00:42:56,640
outrage. And once he even flew at her
shouting that he would slap her.» Like
447
00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:00,160
awful. This is, this is not an
aspirational family dynamic.
448
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:07,600
[Royce] Did he literally… 90's movie effects
like wire– wire across the room to slap her?
449
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:16,960
[Courtney] Probably [laughs] But yeah, and so
I was, I was pulling lines trying to really
450
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:22,560
prove the fact that these are Asexual vampires.
The first book doesn't give me nearly as much
451
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:25,840
as latter books do. But as we're talking
about the first book. I also wanted to be–
452
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:34,080
I wanted to be fair to the allos! We aren't
always [laughs] fair to be allos. I'm sorry.
453
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:37,840
I thought I could say that with a straight
face. I did pull something where, like I said,
454
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:43,680
she loves these… the use of the word ‘sensuous’,
and ‘sensual’, which in most cases I found to
455
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:49,200
be really, really innocuous. Even her use of
‘lover’ I usually found to be very innocuous.
456
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:55,360
[Courtney] There were a couple ones I was like,
“Come on Anne, come on…” Like Louis starts to
457
00:43:55,360 --> 00:44:00,400
kill humans again after Claudia becomes a vampire,
but he's still not into it. He doesn't like it
458
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:06,400
very much. He's very ashamed of it and Claudia
after she starts really lashing out at Lestat,
459
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:10,320
at one point says [reading] «’Kill
with me tonight.’ She whispered
460
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:16,400
as sensuously as a lover.» And that's
when I was like “Stop it, Anne. Don't give
461
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:24,400
the allos any reason to think that
this 20 something year old vampire body
462
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:30,480
is doing anything inappropriate with this five
year old vampire, like to stop.” So to be fair
463
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:34,320
like the first time I heard someone say like,
“I think they're having sex.” I was like “you're
464
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:39,360
absolutely ridiculous. There is no way. That
could be. Where did you read that? What are
465
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:44,040
you talking about now?” Now it's like, “Okay,
you read that and you took it the wrong way.”
466
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:49,840
[Courtney] So we– we talked a little bit
about how the allos read this versus how
467
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:57,120
the gays read this, and how I as a baby
Ace read this once upon a time. But there
468
00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:03,840
is one other perspective. I don't know how
common this is because I've only talked to
469
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:13,040
one woman about this, a friend of mine years
ago, a trans woman told me that she read
470
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:20,160
Interview With The Vampire when she was a
teenager and she heavily related to Claudia.
471
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:29,840
And that kind of gave me an aha moment because
Claudia, as now a grown woman and– a would be
472
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:36,880
elderly woman in the body of a five-year-old
child, begins to really have an issue with that.
473
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:43,600
And that's one of the things that Lestat actually,
like, nags her about. Like, he'll make fun of her
474
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:47,760
by pointing at a grown woman and being like,
“You'll never have a figure like that.” And
475
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:55,680
then she'd get noticeably upset about it and he'd
keep doing that. So, like, bad dad award. Really.
476
00:45:55,680 --> 00:46:03,360
[Courtney] But I, I did pull this passage because
not only do I think this is perhaps the best
477
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:10,640
highlight of what… what someone in the Trans
community might be able to identify with,
478
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:14,720
but it also rolls into the next
scene where definitively we learn,
479
00:46:14,720 --> 00:46:22,400
uh no, they are not having sex, stop it, you
weird, weird allos. So, I guess we need to bridge
480
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:28,960
some gaps here. So, Claudia tries to kill Lestat
because he's a very bad dad. Tries to kill him,
481
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:34,800
doesn't know how to kill a vampire. So, they
think he's, well, disposed of and past the
482
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:40,000
point of no return. But surprise! You can't
kill a vampire in those ways you attempted.
483
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:46,400
So Lestat comes back and attacks them. And they
tried to kill him again with fire this time.
484
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:51,120
Don't know if they succeeded but they're
like, “Well, guess we got to move to Europe
485
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:57,280
now. Can’t– can't be around this guy because
we don't know how to kill him.” So they get on
486
00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:02,480
a boat and they go to Europe. They say, “Hey,
let's look for more vampires. More of our kind,
487
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:07,680
because Lestat sucks. Surely there is a vampire
out there somewhere who sucks less than he does.”
488
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:11,360
[Courtney] And after skulking
about Eastern Europe for a while,
489
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:19,200
they eventually wind up in Paris and
Claudia forms a deep fascination with
490
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:26,240
a doll shop. Where a local doll maker just makes
baby doll after baby doll, only baby dolls.
491
00:47:26,240 --> 00:47:32,960
And she comes running into the hotel where
they're renting a room and she's very excited,
492
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:39,920
she is fussing with this doll that's of a
fully grown woman. And she very excitedly says,
493
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:44,160
[Courtney] [reading] «’It's a lady doll.’ She
said, looking up at me, ‘See a lady doll!’ She
494
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:49,680
put it on the dresser. ‘So it is,’ I whispered. ‘A
woman made it,’ she said. ‘She makes baby dolls,
495
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:55,600
all the same baby dolls. A shop of baby dolls.
Until I said to her I want a lady doll.’»
496
00:47:55,600 --> 00:48:00,320
And a doll is something that they–
Louis especially has frequently
497
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:06,400
referred to Claudia as, you know, she– she
looks like a doll, she's as perfect as a doll,
498
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:12,160
her white vampiric skin is like porcelain, and
all that good stuff. They dress her in ribbons,
499
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:16,940
her curly hair, frilly dresses. All that
good stuff. So Claudia eventually says,
500
00:48:16,940 --> 00:48:19,760
[Courtney] [reading] «’Do you know why
she made it for me?’ And Louis says,
501
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:26,080
‘Because you are a beautiful child and she wanted
to make you happy.’ She was laughing, soundlessly.
502
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:30,880
‘A beautiful child,’ she said, glancing up
at me. ‘Is that what you still think I am?’
503
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:35,760
And her face went dark as again she played with
the doll, her fingers pushing the tiny crocheted
504
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:41,760
neckline down toward the china breasts. ‘Yes. I
resemble her baby dolls. I am her baby dolls.’
505
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:47,600
But something seemed to shift suddenly and then
I saw what her still childish figure was doing.
506
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:52,160
In one hand she held the doll, the other to
her lips, and the hand that held the doll was
507
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:56,400
crushing it. Crushing it and popping
it. So it bobbed and broke in a heap
508
00:48:56,400 --> 00:49:00,400
of glass that fell now from her
open, bloody hand onto the carpet.»
509
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:06,160
[Courtney] And Claudia, who is now so excited
at having this lady doll, because she's tired
510
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:11,840
of all the baby dolls, just absolutely goes off
and demolishes this doll that she loved, because
511
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:18,800
Louis, is once again, comparing her to a beautiful
child. Which, you know, that's kind of what– you
512
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:25,680
can feel the emotion in that passage. Because she
literally takes it out on the doll, crushing it.
513
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:33,680
And although this is the body of a young girl
that wishes to be the body of a fully grown woman,
514
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:40,400
I think that's the part that resonated with my
friend all those years ago. Because she could
515
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:47,680
very much relate to being in a body that doesn't
match the brain. So there's still just like…
516
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:52,400
[Courtney] Even though I'm making a case that there
is no literal gay vampire sex, because there is
517
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:58,720
not, there's still so much beautiful queerness
that just seeps from every page of these books.
518
00:49:58,720 --> 00:50:05,680
So I'm– I'm very much not making the case that
this is not a queer read, because it very much is.
519
00:50:06,240 --> 00:50:13,040
But this is where I'm like, come on people who
think that Louis is having sex with Claudia…
520
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:22,080
She literally, here starts to lament the fact
that she has never had sex and she even asks
521
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:28,400
Louis she says, “But tell me one thing, one thing
from that lofty height. What was it like making
522
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:32,400
love” and Louis’ reaction is interesting here.
And this is what I really want to talk about.
523
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:37,760
[Courtney] This is… this is the real meat
and potatoes as it were the extent of the
524
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:42,080
Asexuality in this book, I think? Because
we don't get all the lore drops until later.
525
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:48,720
But Louis says, [reading] «I was walking away
from her before I meant to. I was searching like
526
00:50:48,720 --> 00:50:53,920
a dim-witted mortal man for cape and gloves. ‘You
don't remember?’ She asked with perfect calm, as
527
00:50:53,920 --> 00:51:00,160
I put my hand on the brass door handle. I stopped
feeling her eyes on my back, ashamed. And then I
528
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:05,840
turned around and made as if to think, where am I
going? What shall I do? Why do I stand here? ‘It
529
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:12,320
was something hurried,’ I said. Trying now to meet
her eyes. ‘and dot dot dot it was seldom savored,
530
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:18,560
dot dot dot something acute that was quickly
lost. I think it was the pale shadow of killing.’»
531
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:25,200
[Courtney] This is the vampire who doesn't
like killing… I would like to formally add to
532
00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:34,400
the Anne Rice vampire discourse! Louis was Asexual
before becoming a vampire. I'ma say it. So I mean,
533
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:40,480
his reaction here, I think is so interesting
because she asks him this, which also like
534
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:45,360
anyone who reads her asking this and still
thinks they're having sex…? Very weird take,
535
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:50,320
you are selective reading. But she's like, “What
is it like to make love?” And his immediate
536
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:56,400
reaction is like, “I gotta get out of here.” It's
like “I'm leaving. Where's the– where's my Cape?”
537
00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:02,880
He's like, “My hand was on the door before
I knew what I was doing.” So he's noticeably
538
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:07,760
uncomfortable, first of all. But then when
he's like, “Well, I guess I gotta answer her.”
539
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:15,360
He says “something hurried, seldom savored,
acute, and quickly lost.” And there are like more
540
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:21,520
dot dot dots in this one paragraph than I think,
there are in half of this whole book. And also
541
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:27,040
the fact that he does then start to equate
it to a pale shadow of killing being the one
542
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:33,920
who famously doesn't like killing, and is very
beside himself every time he– he actually does
543
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:38,560
kill someone… I think that's also
very interesting and very telling.
544
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:45,120
[Courtney] And that's also, you know, something
that was a super quick, seemingly innocuous change
545
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:51,440
that they made to the movie? They opened the movie
with his monologue, just sort of saying like,
546
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:58,160
“Oh my wife died in childbirth, shortly before
I met Lestat”...? Which was very weird, because
547
00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:03,920
that did not happen and in the book we actually
get a glimpse of his life before he meets Lestat,
548
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:10,320
and there was no mention of a wife, no
mention of a girlfriend. And in fact,
549
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:15,920
the family member who died that had put him in
grief was his younger brother. So being single
550
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:21,280
doesn't necessarily mean that you're Asexual, but
I think his response right there– because that's–
551
00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:26,560
that's as close to an actual conversation
about sex as they have in this entire book.
552
00:53:26,560 --> 00:53:34,880
[Courtney] And in fact, the only imagery
that we get of any physical arousal at all,
553
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:41,200
in this book, comes shortly thereafter where
they actually do meet a coven of vampires.
554
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:49,440
And the oldest vampire in the group, Armand,
has a human familiar and this is one where
555
00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:55,840
I'm willing to say I may have misread this as
a teenager. This might have actually implied
556
00:53:56,480 --> 00:54:02,640
real physical arousal, but I'll tell you where my
head was at after I read this passage. So Armand
557
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:10,960
offers Louis to, like, “here... have a taste of
this human of mine.” And it's clear that this
558
00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:16,880
young boy, they don't give an age, but they
call him a boy and refer to him as young.
559
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:20,640
So I don't know if it's like, I don't know
what age he’s supposed to be. No idea.
560
00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:26,320
[Courtney] Armand likes snaps and is like,
“Go Dennis, let Louis drink from you.”
561
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:34,080
And then this boy goes, offers himself to Louis,
clearly already has vampire fangs-like puncture
562
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:40,160
marks all over him, and it says [reading] «He was
pressing the length of his body against me now
563
00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:47,280
and I felt the hard strength of his sex beneath
his clothes pressing against my leg.» That did
564
00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:55,680
not feel good to read aloud… But that is the
only imagery of physical arousal at all in the
565
00:54:55,680 --> 00:55:04,080
entire book. And it is a mortal boy. And when
I was younger, I just thought this was like
566
00:55:04,720 --> 00:55:10,880
a natural physical response to like getting your
blood sucked… not necessarily in a sexual way…
567
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:16,000
because you know, I always read like know,
sometimes when people would be hanged in ye
568
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:21,600
olden days, sometimes people would get erections
and I was like, “That's probably just like
569
00:55:22,240 --> 00:55:29,040
a blood pressure thing, you know?” And I thought
I was, totally had to be 100% removed from actual
570
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:36,560
sexual arousal, because that's where my head was
as an Asexual teenager. But I know. What do you
571
00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:42,960
think? As an adult I'm starting to think, like,
maybe that boy did actually, you know, like it.
572
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:48,400
[Royce] Well, going back to, often
under-explained, vampire powers,
573
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:55,120
the bewitching nature of vampires often has a
similar effect on people. So, I don't know if we
574
00:55:55,120 --> 00:56:03,280
are supposed to take that as a proclivity for the
individual or an impact of the draining of blood,
575
00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:07,680
or the general nature of vampires
in Anne Rice’s novels in general.
576
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:13,760
[Courtney] Which is all very true! And I would also
submit that, this is also kind of proof that Anne
577
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:19,680
Rice doesn't shy away from imagery like that.
And as further proof, go read The Lives of the
578
00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:25,520
Mayfair Witches, if you can stomach it. Because
I did manage to finish the first book and I was
579
00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:33,440
disappointed that I did quite honestly. Like if
Anne Rice wants to write a raunchy sex scene,
580
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:39,600
Anne Rice will write a raunchy sex scene. You
better believe it! Which I mean, now that Armand
581
00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:46,160
is in the picture, I'm a little surprised that
more people don't talk about Armand and Louis as
582
00:56:46,160 --> 00:56:53,680
An Item. Because I think Lestat is just such
an iconic character, he's like the epitome
583
00:56:53,680 --> 00:57:01,520
of the, like, byronic vampire… the– the
suave, handsome, mysterious vampire.
584
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:08,720
[Courtney] But really if there's a case to
be made about a homo-romantic relationship
585
00:57:08,720 --> 00:57:12,880
it's Louis and Armand. And I don't
think that gets enough discussion,
586
00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:18,640
because even Claudia after meeting Armand is,
like, [reading] «’He loves you. He loves you,
587
00:57:18,640 --> 00:57:24,800
he would have you and he would not have me stand
in the way. Loves blinded you, your fascination
588
00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:30,160
with his knowledge, his power.’» So, this is
Claudia talking to Louis saying, “He loves you.
589
00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:35,760
He wants me out of the way so he can have you
to himself, and you're in love with him too. And
590
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:41,680
you can't see how far he's willing to go to get
you.” And Claudia thinks her life is in danger,
591
00:57:41,680 --> 00:57:48,080
which whoa, it is! And Louis is like, “Oh,
pshaw. That's– that's ridiculous.” But they–
592
00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:53,320
they don't move in with this coven of vampires,
but they visit them, especially Louis and Armand.
593
00:57:53,320 --> 00:57:57,520
[Courtney] They have a lot more page time
than they did screen time in the movie,
594
00:57:57,520 --> 00:58:04,960
if you're familiar with the movie. But this, this
mortal boy of Armand’s, really as far as depth
595
00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:12,320
goes as just pure fascination for Louis, because
he doesn't really get to be his own character.
596
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:19,680
The next major passage about him has Louis saying
[reading] «I could see that mortal boy again,
597
00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:24,720
as if he were not asleep on the bed, but kneeling
at Armand's side with his arms around Armand's
598
00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:32,320
neck. It was an icon for me of love, the love
I felt. Not physical love. You must understand.
599
00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:38,240
I don't speak of that at all. Though Armand was
beautiful and simple and no intimacy with him
600
00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:44,400
would ever have been repellent, for vampires
physical love culminates, and is satisfied,
601
00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:51,200
in only one thing: the kill.» So he's
straight up saying, “Yes, I love Armand
602
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:55,040
but not in a physical way. Definitely
not talking about a physical way.”
603
00:58:55,040 --> 00:59:01,440
[Courtney] And there you go! They are Asexual.
Although they do add the, you know, physical
604
00:59:01,440 --> 00:59:06,880
love culminates and is satisfied with the kill. So
that– that's kind of where people try to make the
605
00:59:06,880 --> 00:59:15,120
argument again of, like, draining the blood is a
stand-in for having sex. Which I still just don't
606
00:59:15,120 --> 00:59:22,320
get. I really don't. I know that in some readings
of vampires perhaps that could be a little more
607
00:59:22,320 --> 00:59:28,640
accurate. I'm not saying that has never been
the metaphor ever. But I think it's just really
608
00:59:28,640 --> 00:59:36,560
talking about something physical and visceral
and, you know, the actual feeding and eating,
609
00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:44,080
drinking, consuming, is sort of the only bodily
love of the vampire. Does that make sense?
610
00:59:44,080 --> 00:59:48,400
[Courtney] So yeah, then, you know,
Claudia is worried. She feels like
611
00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:53,760
Louis is going to leave her for this Armand.
Either that or Armand's going to kill her.
612
00:59:53,760 --> 01:00:03,760
So she goes back to the doll sh–, the doll shop,
and the doll maker named Madeline ends up being
613
01:00:04,320 --> 01:00:09,120
someone she decides to make a vampire. But
her body is too small, she doesn't have enough
614
01:00:09,120 --> 01:00:15,680
blood to give to make Madeline a vampire. So she
brings her back home to Louis and is like “Louis!
615
01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:23,280
Make her a vampire for me!” and Louis in his
endless waves of ennui is like, “But I cannot…”
616
01:00:23,280 --> 01:00:29,120
And she's like, “Do it, do it Now! You're gonna
leave me and I need someone to take care of me.”
617
01:00:29,120 --> 01:00:35,120
And then she guilts him and is, like, “You made me
immortal at this young age, you know, I can't take
618
01:00:35,120 --> 01:00:41,840
care of myself. I'm so small.” And Louis finally
gives in and turns Madeline into a vampire.
619
01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:45,360
[Courtney] And that's when he starts, you know,
really ruminating – if there's one thing we can
620
01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:52,080
do is ruminate – on how the last mortal part of
him died, when he created a new vampire, because
621
01:00:52,080 --> 01:00:58,960
he never wanted to condemn anyone to this fate.
Very emo. And he starts to speculate. He's like,
622
01:00:58,960 --> 01:01:06,080
“Well, if the mortal part of me died, so what
did I feel then for Armand? The creature for
623
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:11,520
whom I'd transformed Madeline, the creature for
whom I wanted to be free,” [reading] «a curious,
624
01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:16,400
and disturbing distance, a dull pain,
a nameless tremor? Even in this worldly
625
01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:23,840
clutter I saw Armand in his monkish self, saw his
dark brown eyes and felt that eerie magnetism.»
626
01:01:23,840 --> 01:01:29,520
[Courtney] So, explicitly stated there is not
a physical love here, but he's talking about
627
01:01:29,520 --> 01:01:35,680
eerie magnetism and sort of wondering what love
means, now that “I've – you know– lost myself.”
628
01:01:36,240 --> 01:01:42,080
And he ruminates for another couple more pages,
talking about how he's lived with [reading] «a
629
01:01:42,080 --> 01:01:48,320
colossal deceit and self-deception. I allowed
myself to forget how totally I had fallen in
630
01:01:48,320 --> 01:01:54,880
love with Lestat's iridescent eyes, that I'd
sold my soul for a many-colored and luminescent
631
01:01:54,880 --> 01:02:00,400
thing, thinking that a highly reflective
surface conveyed the power to walk on water.
632
01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:06,160
What would Christ need have done to make me follow
him like Matthew or Peter? Dress well, to begin
633
01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:12,160
with, and have a luxurious head of pampered,
yellow hair.» So confirmed, Louis is a hair guy.
634
01:02:12,160 --> 01:02:17,680
[Courtney] So yeah! Even though from day one,
he's like, “I don't like Lestat.” He's now
635
01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:22,800
looking back on those days being like, “But
damn, he had really good eyes and hair though.”
636
01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:32,640
So there is definitely an aesthetic attraction
going on. Whether or not that was his baseline,
637
01:02:32,640 --> 01:02:38,480
as a human before meeting Lestat, or if there
is some sort of additional vampire allure that
638
01:02:38,480 --> 01:02:45,040
happens, that remains to be described, but that's
what I would call aesthetic attraction. There is
639
01:02:45,600 --> 01:02:50,400
nothing, nothing at all in these
pages to convince me that there
640
01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:57,440
is sexual attraction of any kind happening
amongst any of these vampires present day.
641
01:02:57,440 --> 01:03:01,360
[Courtney] And I'm trying to have this argument
with people who think that Louis and Claudia
642
01:03:01,360 --> 01:03:05,840
had something sexual going on. I've even
convinced them that there is nothing actual
643
01:03:05,840 --> 01:03:10,720
physical happening… but they'll still be, like,
“But there was definitely something romantic
644
01:03:10,720 --> 01:03:15,280
going on. It was still a romantic relationship.
They were practically married, like husband, and
645
01:03:15,280 --> 01:03:19,280
wife.” And it's like, that's the same thing that
other people are saying about Louis and Lestat, is
646
01:03:19,280 --> 01:03:26,880
that they were married gay couple. But even Armand
goes on later to say, you know, [reading] «’But
647
01:03:26,880 --> 01:03:32,320
now Claudia has released you. Yet still you stay
with her and stay bound to her as your paramour,’
648
01:03:32,320 --> 01:03:37,680
He said. ‘No, she's no paramour of mine. You
understand.’ I said. ‘Rather, she's my child
649
01:03:37,680 --> 01:03:42,240
and I don't know that she can release me. These
were thoughts I'd gone over and over in my mind.
650
01:03:42,240 --> 01:03:47,040
I don't know if the child possesses the power to
release the parent. I don't know that I won't be
651
01:03:47,040 --> 01:03:52,080
bound for her as long as she…’ I stopped.
I was going to say for as long as she lives
652
01:03:52,080 --> 01:03:57,840
but I realized it was a hollow mortal cliche. She
would live forever as I would live forever, but
653
01:03:57,840 --> 01:04:02,560
wasn't it so for mortal fathers? Their daughters
live forever because their fathers die first.»
654
01:04:02,560 --> 01:04:09,440
[Courtney] And this is like right before the
vampires all kill Claudia. Spoiler alert. So like,
655
01:04:09,440 --> 01:04:17,120
this is the last real discussion that Louis
is having with anyone. And even Armand's like
656
01:04:17,120 --> 01:04:21,840
mistaking this to be a love interest and
Louis is like, “No, she's my daughter.”
657
01:04:23,040 --> 01:04:30,640
So, I don't know what to say. I don't know what
to say! But then for people who claim, you know,
658
01:04:30,640 --> 01:04:33,520
the love was between Lestat and Louis. Lestat is…
659
01:04:34,240 --> 01:04:38,880
Well, we don't get enough of his perspective in
this one to know how he really feels about Louis.
660
01:04:38,880 --> 01:04:43,920
Louis is talking down on him all the time,
talking about how this is a horrible relationship.
661
01:04:43,920 --> 01:04:46,800
And even though he says, you know,
[sarcastic] he has good eyes and good hair,
662
01:04:48,080 --> 01:04:54,960
“I might be a Christian and Jesus looked like
him,” you know, Armand starts talking about love
663
01:04:54,960 --> 01:05:01,420
and how he loved the vampire who made him a
vampire and Armand, yeah, straight up says,
664
01:05:01,420 --> 01:05:04,800
[Courtney] [reading] «’I wish I had the artist
power to bring alive for you the Venice of the
665
01:05:04,800 --> 01:05:10,640
15th century. My master’s palace there, the
love I felt for him when I was a mortal boy,
666
01:05:10,640 --> 01:05:16,320
and the love he felt for me when he made me a
vampire’ – and Louis is like – ‘Love? What is
667
01:05:16,320 --> 01:05:21,120
this love of which you speak? There was love
between you and the vampire who made you?’ I
668
01:05:21,120 --> 01:05:27,040
leaned forward. ‘Yes,’ he said. ‘A love so strong
he couldn't allow me to grow old and die. A love
669
01:05:27,040 --> 01:05:32,160
that waited patiently until I was strong enough
to be born into darkness. Do you mean to tell
670
01:05:32,160 --> 01:05:38,000
me there was no bond of love between you and the
vampire who made you?’ ‘None,’ I said, quickly.»
671
01:05:38,000 --> 01:05:46,480
[Courtney] None! Take– take that Lestat! Louis
never loved you! So Armond, definitely gay. Louis,
672
01:05:46,480 --> 01:05:52,800
probably was an Asexual even before becoming a
vampire. But that said, for lack of everything
673
01:05:52,800 --> 01:05:59,120
physical, and for evidence that he did not love
Lestat at all, he very much did love Armand.
674
01:05:59,680 --> 01:06:04,640
iIn talking to Claudia, he says [reading]
«’Either I go with him, or I die. And
675
01:06:04,640 --> 01:06:09,600
it's something else which is irrational and
unexplainable, in which satisfies only me.’
676
01:06:09,600 --> 01:06:16,720
‘Which is?’ She asked. ‘That I love him,’
I said.» So why Louis and Armand don't get–
677
01:06:16,720 --> 01:06:21,760
don't get the ships as often as they
do? [laughs] I will never understand.
678
01:06:21,760 --> 01:06:27,840
[Courtney] But yeah, the vampires in this new
coven are super suspicious of these two because
679
01:06:27,840 --> 01:06:32,560
they're being very secretive about the vampire
who met them. So they're already kind of on their
680
01:06:32,560 --> 01:06:38,160
bad side, but then Lestat shows up again, being
like “Surprise! I didn't die that time either!”
681
01:06:38,880 --> 01:06:45,840
And Lestat is just a mess, and he is just sloppy,
and sobbing and begging Louis to come back home.
682
01:06:46,800 --> 01:06:50,960
And he outright told these vampires
that Claudia tried to kill him
683
01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:57,760
so that they would condemn her to die so that he
could have Louis to come back home. So, I really,
684
01:06:57,760 --> 01:07:05,760
like, I don't think Lestat ever felt any true love
for Claudia. Bad Father Award again! I must say.
685
01:07:05,760 --> 01:07:10,480
[Courtney] But yeah, this whole time Lestat is
just begging him. “Come home to me, come back to
686
01:07:10,480 --> 01:07:17,840
New Orleans. I must talk to you.” The other
vampires, you know, track down Claudia, force
687
01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:25,120
her and Madeline, her new companion, out into the
sun where they are condemned to die. Lestat kind
688
01:07:25,120 --> 01:07:32,000
of lets all that happen. After Louis finds out
he's very upset, obviously, and Lestat is still
689
01:07:32,000 --> 01:07:37,120
just like, “Please. Please, you'll come with me. I
can't make you understand. We need to talk. Please
690
01:07:37,120 --> 01:07:42,560
come home Louis.” And then he's literally like
[reading] «the soft subdued sobs broke from him.»
691
01:07:42,560 --> 01:07:51,040
Like he's a mess. And Louis goes rogue, tries to
kill all the other vampires. Does warn Armand,
692
01:07:51,040 --> 01:07:55,520
“Hey I’m going and kill all the other vampires.
Maybe don't go home because I'm burning the whole
693
01:07:55,520 --> 01:08:01,600
place to the ground.” And Armand is, like, “Well
guess I'm getting all my stuff and heading out!”
694
01:08:01,600 --> 01:08:10,080
[Courtney] And yeah, the book kind of ends with
Armand and Louis traveling the world together for
695
01:08:10,640 --> 01:08:19,440
an indeterminable amount of time. Like, presumably
decades at least, where they go to Egypt and Asia,
696
01:08:19,440 --> 01:08:25,600
and they go to New York. And eventually
Armand confesses that Lestat wasn't
697
01:08:26,400 --> 01:08:31,440
there when Louis burned everything down, and
he's probably still alive and Louis very calmly,
698
01:08:31,440 --> 01:08:36,960
like “Okay, I guess I'll go talk to Lestat then.”
But he feels nothing for Lestat. He no longer
699
01:08:36,960 --> 01:08:43,600
seems to feel anything for Armand. He's just kind
of– they’re just companions, but Louis is kind of
700
01:08:43,600 --> 01:08:49,920
like “Sometimes I wish I was alone instead of
having Armand with me.” And that's kind of it.
701
01:08:49,920 --> 01:08:56,560
[Courtney] And I just think it's so fascinating
that so many different people can read this book
702
01:08:56,560 --> 01:09:06,000
and glean so many different contexts from it. And
it was very silly of me to also think that we were
703
01:09:06,000 --> 01:09:12,960
only going to talk about the first book in this
series for a few minutes, you know, maybe 15-20
704
01:09:12,960 --> 01:09:19,520
minutes tops… and then we'd move on to the next
book. But I see our runtimes getting a little
705
01:09:19,520 --> 01:09:29,280
long here. So let's consider this part one of the
Asexual reading of The Vampire Chronicles. Because
706
01:09:29,280 --> 01:09:34,400
if any of you out there are still skeptical, if
any of the out there are still thinking that maybe
707
01:09:34,400 --> 01:09:39,600
those vampires are actually having sex despite
all the evidence I've presented at this point…
708
01:09:39,600 --> 01:09:45,280
stick around! Maybe you'll be surprised
with what we have to unearth. Bye now.
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,200
[Courtney] Why? Hello? It is we: Courtney and
Royce! The internet's favorite Asexual vampire
2
00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:13,120
couple. And today is the moment that I'm sure you
have all been waiting for, because we are going to
3
00:00:13,120 --> 00:00:24,720
talk about vampires. Anne Rice's vampires, to be
precise. Now, when I was young, I read a good deal
4
00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:31,440
of The Vampire Chronicles. I can't claim to have
read every single one because, apparently, Anne
5
00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:38,320
Rice was publishing these things up until just a
few years ago. But definitely like, throughout my
6
00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:48,000
teenage years, the first four or five of them
were definitely my jam. And especially, as a
7
00:00:48,000 --> 00:01:00,240
young Asexual, who did not have any good asexual
representation to sort of look to.. or admire…
8
00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:12,320
I kind of found a pseudo-aspirational form
of my sexuality in The Vampire Chronicles.
9
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[Courtney] And to those of you listening,
especially those of you who have not read it
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and probably those of you who are allosexual and
are not ace like me, this might come as a surprise
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to you because I rarely if ever see people talking
about the Asexuality of Anne Rice's vampires.
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Because the driving factor in all of the
conversations around vampire sexuality
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in Anne Rice's world is they're pretty gay!
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Or at least, they are all very bisexual.
And now Royce, You haven't read these books
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before you met me. Did you realize that
these vampires are in fact, Asexual?
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[Royce] I didn't really have a lot of information.
Anne Rice wasn't really ever on my radar until
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someone sat me down, and was like, “Hey, let's
watch Interview with the Vampire.” Which is fine…
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[Courtney] The movie is… I'd argue, not great.
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[Royce] But in it, there is no clear… what we
mortals would call physical affection. And I
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don't know if that's a product– watching
the movies, I don't know if that is just
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a product of the 90s or… you're going to get
into the book itself… but there was a lot of
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homo-romanticism at least, between the the
most prominent characters. But there was
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nothing that indicated that any
sort of fornication was happening.
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[Courtney] Yes, and– and we're definitely
going to talk about that more here.
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Because from my experience… Well,
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actually first, before we go into this, when you
were sat down to watch this movie, goodness knows
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when… it's an old movie. It could have been at
any time… Was that the moment you realized “Oh,
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this is why people tell me I look like…” Who do
you look like? Is it Tom Cruise or the other one?
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[Royce] Tom Cruise. Yeah, it’s– it’s–
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[Courtney] I'm not up to date with my sex symbols.
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[Royce] It's Lestat. And, and I
think that was the preface. Like,
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someone had watched Interview Of The Vampire
and was, like, name-dropped that character,
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and I didn't really know much about it. And
then, finally, was like “Let's watch this movie.”
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[Courtney] Gotcha.
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[Royce] And then I, since then I've
gotten a couple of passing comments
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in public of “You look kind of like Tom Cruise
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out of a certain movie.” Which is not not
always Interview with a Vampire. But, usually.
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[Courtney] Which is so interesting because
I mean, not really… I mean the long hair,
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you got going for you, same
as he does in that movie.
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I guess there's maybe an argument
to be made that you have, like,
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somewhat similar noses, but I think general…
like, bone structure is much different, but…
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[Royce] I think that people are often off when
they try to make appearance comparisons between
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two people from memory. Like the number of times
I've heard that I have a doppelganger, but I'm
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pretty sure that if I stood side by side with
that person, I would look nothing like them….?
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[Courtney] Sure. Sure. See, I get that a lot
less often than you do too, which I think is
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weird. Like I don't often have people being
like you look exactly like someone I know.
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[Royce] That's because you are racially ambiguous.
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[Courtney] That's true.
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[Royce] And thus, less likely– there
is a smaller chance of someone else
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being racially ambiguous in the same combination.
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[Courtney] That's true. So, so, whereas you, as a
white person, get “I know someone who looks just
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like you.” I, as a racially ambiguous person, get
“What are you? You're so exotic.” So horrible. Oh,
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we're gonna have to talk about that at much
greater length in an episode where the topic lends
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itself better to that. But we're here to talk
about vampires in fact. And the thing I wanted to
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get back to, the thing I've noticed as someone who
was an avid reader of these books at a young age,
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talking to people after the fact, everyone reads
these books differently. Absolutely everyone. My
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gay friends say it is filled with gay vampire sex.
It is very homosexual. And I argue no, not quite.
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[Royce] It does appear to be homo-romantic,
but that is a different story.
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[Courtney] It's a different story! And
this is where, I think, a good grasp of
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what we've touched on– on a bit before, the split
attraction model, which is something that not all,
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but a lot of Asexual people use because… you
know, you and I, we are both Asexual but we have
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some level of attraction for one another, we are,
in fact, married and have been for a long time,
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quite happily. So our attraction isn't sexual
in nature, but it's a different type and some
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of the common types of attraction you'll hear
are romantic attraction, aesthetic attraction,
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you might hear sensual attraction. And they all
have different connotations. And from every allo
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I know, no matter what their orientation is,
they read these books and they read sex. And
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when I first read these as a teenager, I was
baffled when I learned this. Because I was like,
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“What book are you reading? I do not
see the sex with which you refer.”
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[Royce] That reminds me, we should
talk about The Curious Sofa sometime.
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[Courtney] Oh my gosh. Yeah, we're gonna
talk a lot about Edward Gorey in 2022.
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Don't you worry. So my gay friends see gay sex.
But the really, really unfortunate thing is all of
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the straight people I know
who have read this book,
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see something bordering on pedophilic, and
incestuous, because everyone sees sex somehow.
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[Royce] Because two adult men in a
relationship that has homo-romantic
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undertones have a… daughter… figure?
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[Courtney] Yeah, yeah, so we'll get into that. I
will have direct quotes from people of my past,
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who might have read these books. But Royce,
since you haven't read it, and I'm sure
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some of our listeners out there haven't read
it, I'm going to give everyone the cliff notes,
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and then I've pulled a few direct quotes from
the book to make my case that the vampires are
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definitively Asexual. So, we're starting at the
very first book: Interview With the Vampire. And
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one thing I kind of just want to get it out of
the way, because I don't want anyone to listen
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to this and think “Oh, this must be a great book.
It must be great for representation.” I don't want
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that to necessarily be anyone's takeaway… because
if I read this book right now, for the very first
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time, it would absolutely hit differently than
it did at the time that I read it. So, Anne Rice,
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she passed away near the end of 2021. Many people
in the queer community were rightfully so grieving
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her loss, because a lot of queer people with
varying identities saw themselves in her books.
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[Royce] I didn't realize that this book
was actually published in the 70s.
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[Courtney] Yes, quite controversial at the time!
So, these books are from the 70s. She was 80 when
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she recently passed away. She is very much ‘woman
enraptured with southern history.’ Maybe you know
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where I'm going. So, I will never claim that she
did everything perfectly. And one of the things
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that was even more jarring on a reread, than it
was the first time through years ago, was just
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the way she handled, like, southern plantations.
Because the two primary vampires we’re going to be
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talking about today are Louis and Lestat. I think
a lot of people in this discourse about these, you
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know, “sympathetic vampires” forget the fact that
Louis was a literal plantation owner, and enslaved
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many, many Black people… And it's just not
very– it's icky to read a lot of the time.
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[Courtney] And I know some people will try to make
the argument, like, “Well, that's history. You're
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starting the book in the Seventeen Hundreds… Of
course someone in the South has…” It's still not
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handled well. This is not good, like, historical
fiction in that sense. There are some icky lines
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about how, like, “These aren't the African
Americans that you picture today. These– these
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were people from Africa who are very tribal,” and
very much like the– the “magical minority” trope,
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like, these enslaved people who they’re
occasionally feeding on as vampires, they're the
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ones who almost blow the vampires’ cover, because
they “know about magical thing– things. They
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know about Voodoo. They know about these tribal
things.” So they're more, you know, more mystical,
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more superstitious. So it's not good. It's
quite bad. So I want to get that out of the way,
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because I don't want to just not address that
elephant in the room where it comes to this book.
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[Courtney] But before I talk about the the gayness,
the Asexuality, how all of my allo friends
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have read this… I want to talk about just people's
general conceptions because it's an old enough
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book. It is now also an old enough movie. It's
a very, very large well-known franchise. So even
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people who haven't read the book, and even people
who haven't seen the movie, a lot of those people
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still have an idea of what it's about. And I've,
even quite recently, seen people make the case for
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“Oh, I didn't know that there was any Asexuality
to it. I thought there was a lot of bisexuality,
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a lot of homosexuality, but she deals with
alternative family structures in a really
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good positive light.” And I've seen people make
that argument over and over again. Like, “the
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alternative family structure is very good”. It is–
it is representation. That doesn't mean it's good.
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[Royce] Do you think a lot of that
comes from the movie, removing a lot
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of sort of side content, where
Lestat is generally horrible?
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[Courtney] Well, he's not great in the movie
either. Like, they watered down a lot in the
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movie, don't get me wrong, but they don't portray
him as, like, a loving husband. It's so… let's–
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let's– let's go into this! So, Louis is a Southern
plantation owner, Lestat is a vampire who still
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has a mortal elderly living father, who is blind
and needs caretaking, and he decides to ask Louis
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if he can take his life, turn him into
a vampire, if they can live together
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on his plantation mansion and take care of his
father, until his father dies. And more so than
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I think any other book I've ever read– I think
there's a lot of selective reading going on,
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because whether you say they are homosexual,
whether you say they're Asexual, whether you
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say they're gay and ace, a lot of people find
the Louis-Lestat relationship to be some level
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of aspirational, and it absolutely is not. And I
want to make that very, very clear off the bat.
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[Royce] Future podcast episode coming
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out later about all of the toxic
allo relationships in media.
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[Courtney] Well, that's exactly it, like, in
the 70s Anne Rice was sitting here being like,
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“there are so many toxic allo-cishet
relationships, that the cishets can aspire to,
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we don't have any toxic homo-romantic asexual
relationships for those folks, to look up
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to it. Let me fix that.” [laughs] So I pulled this
excerpt because I really want to drive home that,
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yes, Lestat and Louis lived together for
a very long time; I wouldn't even say that
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there was anything justifiably romantic about
it. Like, if anything, it was queerplatonic,
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but there– there was not any reciprocated
love happening, right from the get-go.
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[Royce] Well, you mentioned that they pretty
much hated each other. So, it's– kind of sounds
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more like not even queerplatonic, it was–
they were more just bound by circumstance,
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both being immortal creatures that
couldn't really exist in society.
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[Courtney] In a way. I mean Lestat was very,
very much abusive, and very much trying to
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keep Louis with him. Even when Louis tried to
break away. So in that case, it was a very, very
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abusive toxic relationship. But this– this
excerpt I pulled is from like The Night,
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Louis is in the process of becoming a vampire,
it's the– the first night of the rest of his
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immortal life. He is arguing with Lestat
because they've been arguing right from–
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right from the start. And they haven't
gotten Louis his own coffin yet.
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So dawn is approaching, and Lestat is like, “Hey
stop being a baby. Get in the coffin.” Because,
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because Louis is a little concerned about
getting in the coffin. And so Lestat says,
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[Courtney] [reading] «Now I'm getting into
the coffin. He finally said to me in the most
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disdainful tone ‘And you will get in, on top of
me, if you know, what's good for you.’ And I did,
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I lie face down on him, utterly confused by my
absence of dread and filled with a distaste for
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being so close to him, handsome and intriguing
though he was. And he shut the lid.» And they go
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to sleep like that, and not even a paragraph
later after he wakes up in the morning,
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his first true– wakes up in the evening, rather,
his first true evening as a full-fledged vampire.
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[Courtney] [reading] «The first thing which
became apparent to me, even while Lestat and
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I were loading the coffin into a hearse and
stealing another coffin from the mortuary,
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was that I did not like Lestat at all. I was far
from being his equal yet, but I was infinitely
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closer to him than I had been before the death
of my body. I can't really make this clear to
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you for the obvious reason that you are now as I
was before my body died, you cannot understand.
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But before I died, Lestat was absolutely the
most overwhelming experience I'd ever had.»
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[Courtney] So this is where the selective reading
comes in, because people hear words like he's
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handsome, he's intriguing, this is an overwhelming
experience… and the word experience is italicized.
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So, there's definitely that, like, vampire
mystique to it, and vampires are often very,
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very sexy in their portrayals like this. But a
lot of people seem to skip over that he's like,
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“I don't like Lestat one bit. Yes,
he's handsome, but I hate that guy!”
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[Royce] Hearing you read that passage, it actually
makes me think more of the commonly attributed,
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vampiric power of hypnosis or manipulation where
he says “you as a mortal wouldn't understand
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this.” But when Louis was a mortal, he found this
person intoxicating and now that he is a vampire,
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it seems more like he is freed from
Lestat's power in the same way.
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[Courtney] I think that could– that could be a
fair reading of it. I hadn't thought about it
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specifically in that way, but I think that's
just as valid a reading as any I've heard.
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[Royce] I think there are many cases
at least in the movie, where a vampire
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looks upon a mortal and compels them to do
something. Against their better judgment.
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[Courtney] Yeah, that's definitely a vampire
trope. And when people are talking about,
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like, you know, “Anne Rice's vampires are very
gay, they slept in the same coffin together.”
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Exactly that one time. And it was because
they didn't get him a new coffin yet. And
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they went out and got Louis his own coffin
the very next day, and even that very night
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sleeping in the coffin together, he was like,
“I was filled with disdain for being so close
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to him.” And it's like nothing aspirational
about that. It sounds like a horrible situation.
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[Courtney] And so I suppose that could
be… there are sort of two different allo
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schools of thought that I've encountered,
where sleeping in the coffin together
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is an allegory for sex. But then the other take
is, I suppose, a little more promiscuous, it's the
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drinking blood is an allegory for
sex. Neither take I am fond of.
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And so, to go back to your point, Royce, about
just circumstantially needing to be together…
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They do touch on that a bit because Louis is being
interviewed, hence Interview With The Vampire.
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And so after he tells the story about how
he became a vampire, I took this excerpt:
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[Courtney] [reading] «’And there you were,’
said the boy after a pause, ‘with another
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vampire you hated.’ ‘But I had to stay with
him,’ answered the vampire. ‘As I've told you,
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he had me at a great disadvantage. He hinted
there was much I didn't know. And must know.
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And that he alone could tell me.’»
So, right off the bat, there–
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there is an abusive dynamic because Lestat
is manipulating Louis by withholding
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information from him. Information, which as a new
vampire, could mean life or death. At this point,
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Louis doesn't know what can kill a
vampire, if anything can kill a vampire.
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He doesn't know the rules or how to stay safe
and Lestat is overtly keeping that over his head
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to keep him there. I also underlined this line
because I thought it really drove my point home.
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[Courtney] [reading] «I positively loathed
Lestat.» And I guess, I mean, truth be told,
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because I have seen people take it either
way, like “Oh sleeping in the same coffin,
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that's basically sex” or “Drinking each other's
blood, that's practically sex.” Even if you take
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that take, which I kind of think personally
is a weird take. That only happened once each,
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between the two of them. Like Lestat, turned
Louis into a vampire, by drinking his blood and
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giving some blood back for him to drink, that
happened the one time. And then, they slept in a
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coffin together that one time by sheer necessity,
and neither one seemed super jazzed about it. And,
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you know, they pretty much go on like that for
a while. They continue living on the plantation
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with Lestat's elderly dying father. Louis still
has mortal relatives who are alive at this point.
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And in the next chapter we have another
example of just what I was saying, Louis says:
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[Courtney] [reading]«And I realized that I'd
tolerated him this long because of self-doubt.
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I'd fooled myself into believing I stayed for
the old man and for my sister and her husband,
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but I stayed with Lestat because I was afraid.
He did know essential secrets as a vampire,
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which I could not discover alone. And more
important because he was the only one of my kind,
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whom I knew. I hated him, and wanted
to leave him. Yet, could I leave?»
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This is page 63 of this book. He's already
saying I hate him and I want to leave.
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[Royce] And self-preservation
was the reason for staying.
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[Courtney] [sing-songy] Sounds like
an abusive relationship to me. So,
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another allo take I hear is “all of
Anne Rice's vampires are bisexual.”
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And there's definitely solid evidence for some of
them potentially being bisexual or at least pre…
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pre-vampirism, still as mortals they might
have been asexual, or bisexual rather,
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because Courtney is making the point that
all vampires are asexual. I will back up
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these claims with evidence, I assure you. And even
even in vampirism, you know, people say, “Oh well,
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Louis and Lestat are definitely a gay couple. And
it– it says that Lestat's favorite human to kill
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is a young man.” Some people also read something
at least bordering on sexual with that.
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[Courtney] But this was actually
a scene, it was almost,
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almost verbatim– which actually made it into
the movie where Lestat brings home a couple of
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prostitutes and he… he likes to play
with his food… which is something Louis’s
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talking– constantly talking about
how much he hates how he'll, like,
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sort of mess with people before he kills them.
Because Louis’s not into killing. He doesn't like
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it. In fact, he lives exclusively on rats for a
while because he doesn't want to take human life.
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But I found this very, very interesting because
some people say “Well, Lestat’s not just gay,
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he's definitely bi because he also, you know,
he's bringing home all these prostitutes.”
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[Courtney] But I underlined this line, because
I think I put a lot more weight on this than
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anyone else who has ever read these books… But
this line [reading] «The woman on the settee with
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him was already teasing him about his kisses,
his coldness, his lack of desire for her.» No
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one ever talks about that line. Everyone's like,
“Oh, he brings home female prostitutes.” It's like
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the prostitute's, like, “What's
your deal? Why aren't you into me?”
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His lack of desire… So, like
he's just messing with them.
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[Royce] Logically. It's probably
also a safer target for a vampire,
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regardless of orientation. Just
needing to fulfill their blood quota.
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[Courtney] Blood quota, I like that. So it's kind
of like at this moment, because Lestat is messing
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with these women. He kills one pretty quickly
and moves on to the next one. And they didn't
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hint at ‘no desire’ in the movie… but I believe
I have heard, anecdotally, that Tom Cruise, like,
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explicitly asked the movie to be, like,
a little straighter than the books.
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Like he still took the role, but I think he was
notably a little uncomfortable with how, like,
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at least vaguely homoerotic things were. So, I
don't know if that was an intentional change. Like
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okay, “You can actually be into the prostitute if
you want.” But it's at this point Louis is like
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“You're a monster. I can't be with you anymore!”
Because he's been like this for years, and now
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at this point– and he's again talking about or,
at least thinking to himself, “I'm gonna leave.”
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[Courtney] And this is when Louis himself actually
breaks down. And bites a young girl, Claudia.
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This is after he has not consumed a human
in a very long time. He's not into that,
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but he's still just like, really hungry. He meets
a young girl. Wrong place at the wrong time.
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Realizes he's sucking her blood, realizes she
hasn't died yet, and kind of calls it off.
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And tries– tries to end it. And that ends up being
the girl that they adopt. And I think that's where
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people start to say, you know, “unconventional
family structure, and that's good representation
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actually,” because it's two men who
adopt a young girl. And I'm sure this was
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much more scandalous in the 70s, but
this is still not an aspirational family.
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[Courtney] Lestat finds Louis doing this, makes fun
of him, pokes a lot of fun at him for doing this,
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and then is like, “Why don't we
make her a vampire, will adopt her,
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she'll be our daughter!” Great. Done. He
turns her into a vampire right then and there
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even though Louis doesn't really want
any part of it. He's very conflicted
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and that is when Lestat's like “Louis was
going to leave me… but now you're not,
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are you Louis? Because now we have a dear
precious daughter now, and you're gonna stay
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here and help me raise our lovely daughter.”
And Louis is like, “Damn you! You fiend!”
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[Courtney] So, I guess Lestat got what he
wanted for a little while. He stayed with him,
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even though he was very much planning
on leaving and trying to find a way to.
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But Lestat is not only awful to Louis.
He's also awful to their new daughter now,
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Claudia. She is five years old at the time
they made her a vampire. And for the first,
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like, few years where she's still, you know,
mentally a young girl, I think things are mostly
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fine. But as she starts to get her own, like
personality, Lestat just gets terrible to her.
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[Royce] Five? They made her
older for the movie, then.
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[Courtney] I gotta think they
have to, for the movie because…
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[Royce] …to actually be able to
get a reliable child actor. Yeah.
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[Courtney] But yeah, like, don't get me wrong.
She was very young. And once she does start
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growing up, mentally, her body doesn't change,
but she gets, you know, a little more independent,
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a little more headstrong. And like, Lestat cannot
handle that. And he's awful to her. In fact,
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Louis even says it at one point. [reading] «He
gave little suggestions that he might do her harm.
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‘A starving child is a frightful sight.’ He
said to me, ‘a starving vampire even worse.
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They'd hear her screams in Paris.’ He
said, were he to lock her away to die.
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But all this was meant for me to draw me close
and keep me there. Afraid of fleeing alone,
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I would not conceive of risking it with Claudia.»
So, every time I see people who are like,
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“This is great queer representation!
The two men adopted a daughter together
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in, like, the 1800s, it's great!” I'm like, no,
it's not. It's not good. It's very bad. In fact.
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[Royce] Yeah, one thing you said as we
were preparing for this podcast, was the
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fact that most people forget that Lestat was
the villain of the book for the most part.
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[Courtney] And I wonder how many of those people
it's just years removed, or it's selective
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reading, or if it's people who read more of the
series because the second book in the series,
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like, is about Lestat, his whole life. So I don't
know if people, you know, learn more about him,
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gain more sympathy to him, and then sort
of like, you know, retroactively forget
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the way he was written in this book or the
way he was described by Louis in this book.
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[Courtney] So for as much as I'm going to criticize
it, these books, like, definitely meant a great
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deal to me. And I'm going to be perfectly honest,
the first time I read Interview With The Vampire
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was actually because my partner at the time
lent me his copy. And this guy was very queer,
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he definitely read these books and was very much
like, “This is a great book. It is very queer,
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loved the vampires. love the darkness.” And
when I– when I borrowed the first book, like,
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I also loved it the first time I read it. But
that partner ended up being very, very abusive.
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And so I was like partially through the
second book when we finally called it quits.
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[Courtney] And so I wasn't about to, like, steal
this book or finish– finish this book. And so
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getting my own copies of this book was kind of a
big… just sort of like, moment of independence for
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myself also. Because it was actually the
very first online purchase I ever made.
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I went to eBay and I got a huge book–
or a huge haul of used Anne Rice books
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which included most of The Vampire Chronicles and
some of her other works. And when that big box of
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used books from eBay came to my door, that
was like such an oddly liberating feeling,
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and I just kept– kept reading The
Vampire Chronicles at that point.
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[Royce] Question: did your big book haul include
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Anne Rice's erotic novels
published under a different name?
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[Courtney] I think a couple of them, I
think a couple of them… and I didn't
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read them either. [laughs] By the way. I think
a couple of them were like, Anne rice like,
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originally published as Anne Rampling or whatever
the pseudonym was that she used for some of those
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originally. So, I mean, she has written
erotic novels and this is something people
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know about Anne Rice, so I think people are
also inclined to take the things she writes in
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a very sex-heavy direction, even when
there is no literal sex happening.
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[Courtney] But after this, you know, really
horrible breakup with this very, you know,
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abusive queer ex of mine… I– I dove
right into another bad decision. I dated
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a straight guy [laughs] and I didn't have
a need to read Interview With The Vampire
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even though that was in my big book haul because
I'd already read that one. So I was like, “Hey,
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new boyfriend. Why don't you read this book?
It's going to be a really good book.” And so
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ex was like “I like this book because because
of all the gay vampire sex.” But new boyfriend,
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halfway through this book, came to me dumbfounded,
and I kid you not, said [exaggerated shock] “Did
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Louis and Claudia fuck??” And I was like,
“What is wrong with you?? No! They absolutely
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not! What are you talking about?.” And he's
like, “I think they fucked!” [fumbles] “No,
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nope. Nope, that– that definitely didn't
happen. Show me where that happened.” He's like,
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“You gotta read between the lines, but it's super
obvious that Louis the vampire and his daughter,
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Claudia, the– the five-year-old vampire…
[sarcastic] they definitely fornicated.” And I
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could not figure out for the life
of me where he got– got that.
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[Royce] Red flag. Break up time.
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[Courtney] [burst out laughing] If only! If
only! Because listen, he was also– also abusive
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in… in fewer ways than the last ex was, but
still not good. And by this point, like I had
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read ahead. I– I knew the secrets of the lore.
I knew that canonically Anne Rice’s vampires
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do not have genital sex. There's a deep lore
reason for it, which we'll get to that later.
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I want you guys to know the lore reasons, like
anyone who says that these vampires are literally
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having genital sex, it's– it is canonically
not correct. But I think you have to get to
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the fourth book…? I want to say, I
know I'm going to have to reread to
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find exactly where that passage is, but I think
in the fourth book, they explain why that is.
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[Courtney] So when I read that I was very
vindicated. Because as a young Asexual,
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I was like, I also didn't pick up on how abusive
this was probably because I was in an abusive
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relationship of my own at the time, but I was
like, [intrigued] “Oh, the dark romance without
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any sex? This is perfect! And they had a daughter
without having sex? Oh, brilliant! Love it.” So,
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and that's kind of what really started this trend.
Those were the first two people whom I might
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have discussed this book with, or this series,
actually, in some cases. But it became a pattern.
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[Courtney] Because the more straight people
I knew who read this were like, “Yeah,
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that was definitely, like, kind of pedophilic
that he was just, like, sleeping with this
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vampire in a five-year-old body.” And I was
like, [forceful] “Where did you read this?”
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But then all the gay people I knew were like,
“Yeah, Louis and Lestat were having sex all
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the time.” And I was like, [dumbfounded] “Where
did you read that? I don't see it! Any of this,
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none of it.” But I'll give them this, they’re–
they're wrong, each and every one of them, but…
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[Royce] First of all.
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[Courtney] First of all, they're
wrong. On second readthrough,
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because in preparation for this
episode I re-read the first book,
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because it's been over a decade since– since I've
read it last. So I wanted to make sure that I had
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all my ducks in a row and that my memory was
fresh. I understand allos a little more now,
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than I did then. Because back then I was
just baffled by everyone all the time,
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and I didn't know any other Asexual people and
I was just like “Wait, you think this? Wait,
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you feel like that?” Like, I didn't understand
any of it. It was all foreign to me.
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Now that I have embraced my Asexuality. I've met
other Asexual people and I've had conversations
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about sex and sexuality with a variety of people,
knowing that we all experience things differently,
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I can't say I get the allos because I still think
they're very weird, but at least know a little
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more about how they think. And Anne Rice’s writing
style is very very lush. It is very flamboyant.
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It's very romanticized. And part of that is just
Anne Rice. I mean as I said, she has written,
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you know, erotic novels, which I don't
think I'm ever going to touch personally.
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[Royce] You had a really cringey
audiobook going for a while.
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[Courtney] It was horrible.
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Yeah. I'll tell the story real quick. So when I
was just in a Barnes & Noble several years ago,
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and there was, like, this brand new, like “The
Prince Lestat, the new edition of The Vampire
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Chronicles.” And I just saw this in Barnes & Noble
without hearing any news about this whatsoever.
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And I was like, “Anne Rice is still writing
novels in The Vampire Chronicles? What?” So,
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I just, like, bought it because why not, I
still haven't read it to be perfectly honest,
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maybe I'll have to if we end up making this whole
thing a whole series. But I just, sort of like,
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googled that at that point. I was like “how many
Vampire Chronicles are there? Are there some I
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didn't know about?” And she made a crossover
series called The Lives of the Mayfair Witches,
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which kind of, from what I understand, can
stand on its own but there are some crossover
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characters at a certain point and it is very
evident that this is in the same universe.
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[Courtney] And knowing that there is
some level of crossover, I thought, “Oh,
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I should go and read these before I get onto
the new book just in case, you know, there's
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some sort of big astonishing lore drop or
some character who's been added who I'm not
370
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privy to yet.” So I was like, “what the heck?
I'll– I'll read The Lives of the Mayfair Witches.”
371
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,800
Oh my gosh. This– this is when
I did have a physical copy of,
372
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:53,680
but I was also just really busy with my Victorian
hairwork business at the time. So I was doing a
373
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:58,640
lot of time in the studio, working with my hands.
So I was kind of flipping back and forth between
374
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:04,640
reading the physical book and putting the
audiobook on. And it was downright painful
375
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:10,960
to listen to and read. Because it was just too
much! I don't even think this was considered an
376
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:17,200
erotic novel, so that really doesn't make me feel
good about what her actual erotic novels are… but
377
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:26,139
the sex was so frequent and unnecessary and just
uncomfortable, just awful. I hated it. [laughs]
378
00:36:26,139 --> 00:36:27,920
[Royce] Even coming into the room,
379
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:31,840
listening to the sex scenes played at two
times speed, they were still too long.
380
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:35,360
[Courtney] They were still too long! I
was listening to it on two-times speed,
381
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:37,040
because I was like “Get there!” Like,
“Get through it! Get through it!”
382
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,800
And then Royce would come into the room
with just, like, one eyebrow raised,
383
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:48,160
while I'm sitting there doing work, but my
entire face is just cringing and we're just both
384
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:52,560
highly uncomfortable and I'm sorry Royce,
that I put us both in this situation.
385
00:36:53,760 --> 00:37:02,080
Will never again go in blind to an Anne Rice
audiobook, or any book. Probably. It was awful…
386
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:08,000
[Royce] Question, before I get back into it. You
are familiar with the concept of mass hysteria
387
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:12,960
where a large group of people, generally
believes something in a panic. What do you
388
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:19,760
call something when a large group of society
collectively fanfictions a work of literature?
389
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:24,000
Because it kind of sounds like, that's what has–
what is happening with The Vampire Chronicles.
390
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:32,240
[Courtney] We call them threatened with legal
action! Because Anne Rice, famously hates fanfic.
391
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:40,240
And she– she like, outright has said, like
“Don't you dare make fanfiction of my characters.
392
00:37:40,240 --> 00:37:44,640
I can't bear to think of fanfic of
my characters.” And she would, like,
393
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:51,120
issue take down orders to fanfiction websites
and, like, actually send legal threats to people
394
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:57,840
who she found making fanfiction. And so she
has been like in modern day one of the least
395
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:07,280
supportive authors of the fanfiction community.
So no fanfiction of those vampires! Which is
396
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:13,280
very interesting. I'm not into fanfiction. I
haven't quite read fanfiction. I definitely don't
397
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:17,840
write fanfiction, but I know it is a lush and
thriving community, and I think, good for them.
398
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:22,400
[Royce] It definitely sounds like there's some
aspect of shipping culture here, where people
399
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:28,400
are ignoring all the red flags and pretending
that there is a happy couple at work here.
400
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:33,600
[Courtney] I mean honestly… I would love
this to be a happy functional couple.
401
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:38,560
Are you kidding me? Gay vampires with
their vampire daughter? Who are actually
402
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:43,760
a functional family unit? I would love that!
But that's not the fact of the matter. So,
403
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:50,560
truly… So, yeah, I can't claim to know
much about the shipping communities,
404
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:55,280
the fanfiction communities… but I do know
that Anne Rice is very unfriendly to them.
405
00:38:55,280 --> 00:39:01,280
[Courtney] So in just, like, getting back to
how I understand allos a little more now…
406
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:06,160
So on on my recent read through, I kind
of started seeing some of the words and
407
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:12,080
phrases where I'm like, “Oh, that's why you
thought that this meant sex.” Is just in a
408
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:16,080
lot of the words she uses. First of
all, she uses the word sensual a lot,
409
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:22,400
which people often conflate to be sexual.
And if you spend any amount of time
410
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:29,120
engaging with asexual discussion online, with the
Ace community, you should well know that they are
411
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:36,560
not necessarily the same. They can go hand-in-hand
for some people, but not always. And I never took
412
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:43,200
her use of the word sensual in these books to
be in an erotic direction. Because she makes it
413
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:50,320
very clear that vampires have heightened senses.
Every sense is heightened, from vision to smell,
414
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:56,720
absolutely everything. They did a horrendous job
of showing this in the movie. I don't know why
415
00:39:56,720 --> 00:40:02,880
they were like… utter failure of imagination
where they're like, “Let's take this statue,
416
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:09,360
that doesn't move and give it eyes that actually
move, once he's a vampire, because that'll show
417
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:14,520
them that vampires see things better than
humans.” like What??? Very, very weird.
418
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:18,960
[Courtney] But she's constantly talking
about how they can move faster than humans,
419
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:24,080
they can sense things better. So, when
she uses the word sensual, I always
420
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:31,120
took that to be in the literal sense of the
word, the heightened vampire senses. But
421
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:36,000
now that I have studied allos a little further,
I can see why they think that means sexy.
422
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:43,920
But she also starts to, at a certain point once
Claudia mentally grows a little older, she never
423
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:51,120
steps away from the father-daughter dynamic. Right
up until the end Claudia's being referred to as
424
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:56,640
daughter. But she will occasionally throw in a
line where will be like “father and daughter,
425
00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:02,880
lover and lover.” And teenage Courtney was like
“Lover, doesn't have to mean in a sex way.”
426
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:06,880
Adult Courtney knows that any allo who
reads that is going to think it's in a sex
427
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:13,920
way. But no! Louis was not having sex with
the body of a five-year-old! Absolutely not,
428
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:19,040
even though she is, now, like 64. And even
without getting into the deep lore. I have
429
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:24,240
proof of that later in this book too. Which–
I will pull excerpts. I will cite my sources.
430
00:41:24,240 --> 00:41:28,320
[Courtney] But yeah, so Claudia basically
sleeps in Louis’ coffin every single night,
431
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:34,960
for almost their entire vampire lives. At a
certain point she wants a coffin of her own,
432
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:38,560
and Louis is, like, deeply wounded by this. In
fact, he said [reading with emphasis] «which
433
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:45,040
left me more wounded than I would let her see. I
walked out after giving my gentlemanly consent.
434
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:49,600
For how many years had I slept with her as
if she were part of me, I couldn't know.»
435
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:53,520
And I just took that to be like any
parent, like my child's growing up
436
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:59,200
and doesn't need me anymore. Right? But even
after Claudia gets her own coffin, and she
437
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:05,200
still goes back to Louis’ coffin and
sleeps with him seemingly every night.
438
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:09,680
[Royce] Which kids being of
an age where they frequently,
439
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:15,360
like, climb into their parents bed, is a
very frequent well-documented behavior.
440
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:20,480
[Courtney] Yeah, absolutely! But yeah, so in– I
mean, this is the point she's growing up more.
441
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:26,080
She's wanting a little semblance of independence
but isn't really, you know, walking the walk so to
442
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:31,200
speak, because she's still climbing into Louis’
coffin, but she starts to really resent Lestat.
443
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:36,960
Which is probably for her own good, because
Lestat has literally threatened to kill her.
444
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:43,600
I feel like maybe that wasn't emphasized
quite enough. But yeah, yeah Louis describes,
445
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:50,240
you know, [reading] «She grew cold to Lestat and
our fragile domestic tranquility erupted with his
446
00:42:50,240 --> 00:42:56,640
outrage. And once he even flew at her
shouting that he would slap her.» Like
447
00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:00,160
awful. This is, this is not an
aspirational family dynamic.
448
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:07,600
[Royce] Did he literally… 90's movie effects
like wire– wire across the room to slap her?
449
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:16,960
[Courtney] Probably [laughs] But yeah, and so
I was, I was pulling lines trying to really
450
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:22,560
prove the fact that these are Asexual vampires.
The first book doesn't give me nearly as much
451
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:25,840
as latter books do. But as we're talking
about the first book. I also wanted to be–
452
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:34,080
I wanted to be fair to the allos! We aren't
always [laughs] fair to be allos. I'm sorry.
453
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:37,840
I thought I could say that with a straight
face. I did pull something where, like I said,
454
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:43,680
she loves these… the use of the word ‘sensuous’,
and ‘sensual’, which in most cases I found to
455
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:49,200
be really, really innocuous. Even her use of
‘lover’ I usually found to be very innocuous.
456
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:55,360
[Courtney] There were a couple ones I was like,
“Come on Anne, come on…” Like Louis starts to
457
00:43:55,360 --> 00:44:00,400
kill humans again after Claudia becomes a vampire,
but he's still not into it. He doesn't like it
458
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:06,400
very much. He's very ashamed of it and Claudia
after she starts really lashing out at Lestat,
459
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:10,320
at one point says [reading] «’Kill
with me tonight.’ She whispered
460
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:16,400
as sensuously as a lover.» And that's
when I was like “Stop it, Anne. Don't give
461
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:24,400
the allos any reason to think that
this 20 something year old vampire body
462
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:30,480
is doing anything inappropriate with this five
year old vampire, like to stop.” So to be fair
463
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:34,320
like the first time I heard someone say like,
“I think they're having sex.” I was like “you're
464
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:39,360
absolutely ridiculous. There is no way. That
could be. Where did you read that? What are
465
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:44,040
you talking about now?” Now it's like, “Okay,
you read that and you took it the wrong way.”
466
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:49,840
[Courtney] So we– we talked a little bit
about how the allos read this versus how
467
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:57,120
the gays read this, and how I as a baby
Ace read this once upon a time. But there
468
00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:03,840
is one other perspective. I don't know how
common this is because I've only talked to
469
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:13,040
one woman about this, a friend of mine years
ago, a trans woman told me that she read
470
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:20,160
Interview With The Vampire when she was a
teenager and she heavily related to Claudia.
471
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:29,840
And that kind of gave me an aha moment because
Claudia, as now a grown woman and– a would be
472
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:36,880
elderly woman in the body of a five-year-old
child, begins to really have an issue with that.
473
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:43,600
And that's one of the things that Lestat actually,
like, nags her about. Like, he'll make fun of her
474
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:47,760
by pointing at a grown woman and being like,
“You'll never have a figure like that.” And
475
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:55,680
then she'd get noticeably upset about it and he'd
keep doing that. So, like, bad dad award. Really.
476
00:45:55,680 --> 00:46:03,360
[Courtney] But I, I did pull this passage because
not only do I think this is perhaps the best
477
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:10,640
highlight of what… what someone in the Trans
community might be able to identify with,
478
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:14,720
but it also rolls into the next
scene where definitively we learn,
479
00:46:14,720 --> 00:46:22,400
uh no, they are not having sex, stop it, you
weird, weird allos. So, I guess we need to bridge
480
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:28,960
some gaps here. So, Claudia tries to kill Lestat
because he's a very bad dad. Tries to kill him,
481
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:34,800
doesn't know how to kill a vampire. So, they
think he's, well, disposed of and past the
482
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:40,000
point of no return. But surprise! You can't
kill a vampire in those ways you attempted.
483
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:46,400
So Lestat comes back and attacks them. And they
tried to kill him again with fire this time.
484
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:51,120
Don't know if they succeeded but they're
like, “Well, guess we got to move to Europe
485
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:57,280
now. Can’t– can't be around this guy because
we don't know how to kill him.” So they get on
486
00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:02,480
a boat and they go to Europe. They say, “Hey,
let's look for more vampires. More of our kind,
487
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:07,680
because Lestat sucks. Surely there is a vampire
out there somewhere who sucks less than he does.”
488
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:11,360
[Courtney] And after skulking
about Eastern Europe for a while,
489
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:19,200
they eventually wind up in Paris and
Claudia forms a deep fascination with
490
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:26,240
a doll shop. Where a local doll maker just makes
baby doll after baby doll, only baby dolls.
491
00:47:26,240 --> 00:47:32,960
And she comes running into the hotel where
they're renting a room and she's very excited,
492
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:39,920
she is fussing with this doll that's of a
fully grown woman. And she very excitedly says,
493
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:44,160
[Courtney] [reading] «’It's a lady doll.’ She
said, looking up at me, ‘See a lady doll!’ She
494
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:49,680
put it on the dresser. ‘So it is,’ I whispered. ‘A
woman made it,’ she said. ‘She makes baby dolls,
495
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:55,600
all the same baby dolls. A shop of baby dolls.
Until I said to her I want a lady doll.’»
496
00:47:55,600 --> 00:48:00,320
And a doll is something that they–
Louis especially has frequently
497
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:06,400
referred to Claudia as, you know, she– she
looks like a doll, she's as perfect as a doll,
498
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:12,160
her white vampiric skin is like porcelain, and
all that good stuff. They dress her in ribbons,
499
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:16,940
her curly hair, frilly dresses. All that
good stuff. So Claudia eventually says,
500
00:48:16,940 --> 00:48:19,760
[Courtney] [reading] «’Do you know why
she made it for me?’ And Louis says,
501
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:26,080
‘Because you are a beautiful child and she wanted
to make you happy.’ She was laughing, soundlessly.
502
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:30,880
‘A beautiful child,’ she said, glancing up
at me. ‘Is that what you still think I am?’
503
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:35,760
And her face went dark as again she played with
the doll, her fingers pushing the tiny crocheted
504
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:41,760
neckline down toward the china breasts. ‘Yes. I
resemble her baby dolls. I am her baby dolls.’
505
00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:47,600
But something seemed to shift suddenly and then
I saw what her still childish figure was doing.
506
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:52,160
In one hand she held the doll, the other to
her lips, and the hand that held the doll was
507
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:56,400
crushing it. Crushing it and popping
it. So it bobbed and broke in a heap
508
00:48:56,400 --> 00:49:00,400
of glass that fell now from her
open, bloody hand onto the carpet.»
509
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:06,160
[Courtney] And Claudia, who is now so excited
at having this lady doll, because she's tired
510
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:11,840
of all the baby dolls, just absolutely goes off
and demolishes this doll that she loved, because
511
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:18,800
Louis, is once again, comparing her to a beautiful
child. Which, you know, that's kind of what– you
512
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:25,680
can feel the emotion in that passage. Because she
literally takes it out on the doll, crushing it.
513
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:33,680
And although this is the body of a young girl
that wishes to be the body of a fully grown woman,
514
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:40,400
I think that's the part that resonated with my
friend all those years ago. Because she could
515
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:47,680
very much relate to being in a body that doesn't
match the brain. So there's still just like…
516
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:52,400
[Courtney] Even though I'm making a case that there
is no literal gay vampire sex, because there is
517
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:58,720
not, there's still so much beautiful queerness
that just seeps from every page of these books.
518
00:49:58,720 --> 00:50:05,680
So I'm– I'm very much not making the case that
this is not a queer read, because it very much is.
519
00:50:06,240 --> 00:50:13,040
But this is where I'm like, come on people who
think that Louis is having sex with Claudia…
520
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:22,080
She literally, here starts to lament the fact
that she has never had sex and she even asks
521
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:28,400
Louis she says, “But tell me one thing, one thing
from that lofty height. What was it like making
522
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:32,400
love” and Louis’ reaction is interesting here.
And this is what I really want to talk about.
523
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:37,760
[Courtney] This is… this is the real meat
and potatoes as it were the extent of the
524
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:42,080
Asexuality in this book, I think? Because
we don't get all the lore drops until later.
525
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:48,720
But Louis says, [reading] «I was walking away
from her before I meant to. I was searching like
526
00:50:48,720 --> 00:50:53,920
a dim-witted mortal man for cape and gloves. ‘You
don't remember?’ She asked with perfect calm, as
527
00:50:53,920 --> 00:51:00,160
I put my hand on the brass door handle. I stopped
feeling her eyes on my back, ashamed. And then I
528
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:05,840
turned around and made as if to think, where am I
going? What shall I do? Why do I stand here? ‘It
529
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:12,320
was something hurried,’ I said. Trying now to meet
her eyes. ‘and dot dot dot it was seldom savored,
530
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:18,560
dot dot dot something acute that was quickly
lost. I think it was the pale shadow of killing.’»
531
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:25,200
[Courtney] This is the vampire who doesn't
like killing… I would like to formally add to
532
00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:34,400
the Anne Rice vampire discourse! Louis was Asexual
before becoming a vampire. I'ma say it. So I mean,
533
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:40,480
his reaction here, I think is so interesting
because she asks him this, which also like
534
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:45,360
anyone who reads her asking this and still
thinks they're having sex…? Very weird take,
535
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:50,320
you are selective reading. But she's like, “What
is it like to make love?” And his immediate
536
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:56,400
reaction is like, “I gotta get out of here.” It's
like “I'm leaving. Where's the– where's my Cape?”
537
00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:02,880
He's like, “My hand was on the door before
I knew what I was doing.” So he's noticeably
538
00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:07,760
uncomfortable, first of all. But then when
he's like, “Well, I guess I gotta answer her.”
539
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:15,360
He says “something hurried, seldom savored,
acute, and quickly lost.” And there are like more
540
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:21,520
dot dot dots in this one paragraph than I think,
there are in half of this whole book. And also
541
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:27,040
the fact that he does then start to equate
it to a pale shadow of killing being the one
542
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:33,920
who famously doesn't like killing, and is very
beside himself every time he– he actually does
543
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:38,560
kill someone… I think that's also
very interesting and very telling.
544
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:45,120
[Courtney] And that's also, you know, something
that was a super quick, seemingly innocuous change
545
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:51,440
that they made to the movie? They opened the movie
with his monologue, just sort of saying like,
546
00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:58,160
“Oh my wife died in childbirth, shortly before
I met Lestat”...? Which was very weird, because
547
00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:03,920
that did not happen and in the book we actually
get a glimpse of his life before he meets Lestat,
548
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:10,320
and there was no mention of a wife, no
mention of a girlfriend. And in fact,
549
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:15,920
the family member who died that had put him in
grief was his younger brother. So being single
550
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:21,280
doesn't necessarily mean that you're Asexual, but
I think his response right there– because that's–
551
00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:26,560
that's as close to an actual conversation
about sex as they have in this entire book.
552
00:53:26,560 --> 00:53:34,880
[Courtney] And in fact, the only imagery
that we get of any physical arousal at all,
553
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:41,200
in this book, comes shortly thereafter where
they actually do meet a coven of vampires.
554
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:49,440
And the oldest vampire in the group, Armand,
has a human familiar and this is one where
555
00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:55,840
I'm willing to say I may have misread this as
a teenager. This might have actually implied
556
00:53:56,480 --> 00:54:02,640
real physical arousal, but I'll tell you where my
head was at after I read this passage. So Armand
557
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:10,960
offers Louis to, like, “here... have a taste of
this human of mine.” And it's clear that this
558
00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:16,880
young boy, they don't give an age, but they
call him a boy and refer to him as young.
559
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:20,640
So I don't know if it's like, I don't know
what age he’s supposed to be. No idea.
560
00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:26,320
[Courtney] Armand likes snaps and is like,
“Go Dennis, let Louis drink from you.”
561
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:34,080
And then this boy goes, offers himself to Louis,
clearly already has vampire fangs-like puncture
562
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:40,160
marks all over him, and it says [reading] «He was
pressing the length of his body against me now
563
00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:47,280
and I felt the hard strength of his sex beneath
his clothes pressing against my leg.» That did
564
00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:55,680
not feel good to read aloud… But that is the
only imagery of physical arousal at all in the
565
00:54:55,680 --> 00:55:04,080
entire book. And it is a mortal boy. And when
I was younger, I just thought this was like
566
00:55:04,720 --> 00:55:10,880
a natural physical response to like getting your
blood sucked… not necessarily in a sexual way…
567
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:16,000
because you know, I always read like know,
sometimes when people would be hanged in ye
568
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:21,600
olden days, sometimes people would get erections
and I was like, “That's probably just like
569
00:55:22,240 --> 00:55:29,040
a blood pressure thing, you know?” And I thought
I was, totally had to be 100% removed from actual
570
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:36,560
sexual arousal, because that's where my head was
as an Asexual teenager. But I know. What do you
571
00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:42,960
think? As an adult I'm starting to think, like,
maybe that boy did actually, you know, like it.
572
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:48,400
[Royce] Well, going back to, often
under-explained, vampire powers,
573
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:55,120
the bewitching nature of vampires often has a
similar effect on people. So, I don't know if we
574
00:55:55,120 --> 00:56:03,280
are supposed to take that as a proclivity for the
individual or an impact of the draining of blood,
575
00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:07,680
or the general nature of vampires
in Anne Rice’s novels in general.
576
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:13,760
[Courtney] Which is all very true! And I would also
submit that, this is also kind of proof that Anne
577
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:19,680
Rice doesn't shy away from imagery like that.
And as further proof, go read The Lives of the
578
00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:25,520
Mayfair Witches, if you can stomach it. Because
I did manage to finish the first book and I was
579
00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:33,440
disappointed that I did quite honestly. Like if
Anne Rice wants to write a raunchy sex scene,
580
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:39,600
Anne Rice will write a raunchy sex scene. You
better believe it! Which I mean, now that Armand
581
00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:46,160
is in the picture, I'm a little surprised that
more people don't talk about Armand and Louis as
582
00:56:46,160 --> 00:56:53,680
An Item. Because I think Lestat is just such
an iconic character, he's like the epitome
583
00:56:53,680 --> 00:57:01,520
of the, like, byronic vampire… the– the
suave, handsome, mysterious vampire.
584
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:08,720
[Courtney] But really if there's a case to
be made about a homo-romantic relationship
585
00:57:08,720 --> 00:57:12,880
it's Louis and Armand. And I don't
think that gets enough discussion,
586
00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:18,640
because even Claudia after meeting Armand is,
like, [reading] «’He loves you. He loves you,
587
00:57:18,640 --> 00:57:24,800
he would have you and he would not have me stand
in the way. Loves blinded you, your fascination
588
00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:30,160
with his knowledge, his power.’» So, this is
Claudia talking to Louis saying, “He loves you.
589
00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:35,760
He wants me out of the way so he can have you
to himself, and you're in love with him too. And
590
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:41,680
you can't see how far he's willing to go to get
you.” And Claudia thinks her life is in danger,
591
00:57:41,680 --> 00:57:48,080
which whoa, it is! And Louis is like, “Oh,
pshaw. That's– that's ridiculous.” But they–
592
00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:53,320
they don't move in with this coven of vampires,
but they visit them, especially Louis and Armand.
593
00:57:53,320 --> 00:57:57,520
[Courtney] They have a lot more page time
than they did screen time in the movie,
594
00:57:57,520 --> 00:58:04,960
if you're familiar with the movie. But this, this
mortal boy of Armand’s, really as far as depth
595
00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:12,320
goes as just pure fascination for Louis, because
he doesn't really get to be his own character.
596
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:19,680
The next major passage about him has Louis saying
[reading] «I could see that mortal boy again,
597
00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:24,720
as if he were not asleep on the bed, but kneeling
at Armand's side with his arms around Armand's
598
00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:32,320
neck. It was an icon for me of love, the love
I felt. Not physical love. You must understand.
599
00:58:32,320 --> 00:58:38,240
I don't speak of that at all. Though Armand was
beautiful and simple and no intimacy with him
600
00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:44,400
would ever have been repellent, for vampires
physical love culminates, and is satisfied,
601
00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:51,200
in only one thing: the kill.» So he's
straight up saying, “Yes, I love Armand
602
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:55,040
but not in a physical way. Definitely
not talking about a physical way.”
603
00:58:55,040 --> 00:59:01,440
[Courtney] And there you go! They are Asexual.
Although they do add the, you know, physical
604
00:59:01,440 --> 00:59:06,880
love culminates and is satisfied with the kill. So
that– that's kind of where people try to make the
605
00:59:06,880 --> 00:59:15,120
argument again of, like, draining the blood is a
stand-in for having sex. Which I still just don't
606
00:59:15,120 --> 00:59:22,320
get. I really don't. I know that in some readings
of vampires perhaps that could be a little more
607
00:59:22,320 --> 00:59:28,640
accurate. I'm not saying that has never been
the metaphor ever. But I think it's just really
608
00:59:28,640 --> 00:59:36,560
talking about something physical and visceral
and, you know, the actual feeding and eating,
609
00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:44,080
drinking, consuming, is sort of the only bodily
love of the vampire. Does that make sense?
610
00:59:44,080 --> 00:59:48,400
[Courtney] So yeah, then, you know,
Claudia is worried. She feels like
611
00:59:48,400 --> 00:59:53,760
Louis is going to leave her for this Armand.
Either that or Armand's going to kill her.
612
00:59:53,760 --> 01:00:03,760
So she goes back to the doll sh–, the doll shop,
and the doll maker named Madeline ends up being
613
01:00:04,320 --> 01:00:09,120
someone she decides to make a vampire. But
her body is too small, she doesn't have enough
614
01:00:09,120 --> 01:00:15,680
blood to give to make Madeline a vampire. So she
brings her back home to Louis and is like “Louis!
615
01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:23,280
Make her a vampire for me!” and Louis in his
endless waves of ennui is like, “But I cannot…”
616
01:00:23,280 --> 01:00:29,120
And she's like, “Do it, do it Now! You're gonna
leave me and I need someone to take care of me.”
617
01:00:29,120 --> 01:00:35,120
And then she guilts him and is, like, “You made me
immortal at this young age, you know, I can't take
618
01:00:35,120 --> 01:00:41,840
care of myself. I'm so small.” And Louis finally
gives in and turns Madeline into a vampire.
619
01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:45,360
[Courtney] And that's when he starts, you know,
really ruminating – if there's one thing we can
620
01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:52,080
do is ruminate – on how the last mortal part of
him died, when he created a new vampire, because
621
01:00:52,080 --> 01:00:58,960
he never wanted to condemn anyone to this fate.
Very emo. And he starts to speculate. He's like,
622
01:00:58,960 --> 01:01:06,080
“Well, if the mortal part of me died, so what
did I feel then for Armand? The creature for
623
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:11,520
whom I'd transformed Madeline, the creature for
whom I wanted to be free,” [reading] «a curious,
624
01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:16,400
and disturbing distance, a dull pain,
a nameless tremor? Even in this worldly
625
01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:23,840
clutter I saw Armand in his monkish self, saw his
dark brown eyes and felt that eerie magnetism.»
626
01:01:23,840 --> 01:01:29,520
[Courtney] So, explicitly stated there is not
a physical love here, but he's talking about
627
01:01:29,520 --> 01:01:35,680
eerie magnetism and sort of wondering what love
means, now that “I've – you know– lost myself.”
628
01:01:36,240 --> 01:01:42,080
And he ruminates for another couple more pages,
talking about how he's lived with [reading] «a
629
01:01:42,080 --> 01:01:48,320
colossal deceit and self-deception. I allowed
myself to forget how totally I had fallen in
630
01:01:48,320 --> 01:01:54,880
love with Lestat's iridescent eyes, that I'd
sold my soul for a many-colored and luminescent
631
01:01:54,880 --> 01:02:00,400
thing, thinking that a highly reflective
surface conveyed the power to walk on water.
632
01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:06,160
What would Christ need have done to make me follow
him like Matthew or Peter? Dress well, to begin
633
01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:12,160
with, and have a luxurious head of pampered,
yellow hair.» So confirmed, Louis is a hair guy.
634
01:02:12,160 --> 01:02:17,680
[Courtney] So yeah! Even though from day one,
he's like, “I don't like Lestat.” He's now
635
01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:22,800
looking back on those days being like, “But
damn, he had really good eyes and hair though.”
636
01:02:24,000 --> 01:02:32,640
So there is definitely an aesthetic attraction
going on. Whether or not that was his baseline,
637
01:02:32,640 --> 01:02:38,480
as a human before meeting Lestat, or if there
is some sort of additional vampire allure that
638
01:02:38,480 --> 01:02:45,040
happens, that remains to be described, but that's
what I would call aesthetic attraction. There is
639
01:02:45,600 --> 01:02:50,400
nothing, nothing at all in these
pages to convince me that there
640
01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:57,440
is sexual attraction of any kind happening
amongst any of these vampires present day.
641
01:02:57,440 --> 01:03:01,360
[Courtney] And I'm trying to have this argument
with people who think that Louis and Claudia
642
01:03:01,360 --> 01:03:05,840
had something sexual going on. I've even
convinced them that there is nothing actual
643
01:03:05,840 --> 01:03:10,720
physical happening… but they'll still be, like,
“But there was definitely something romantic
644
01:03:10,720 --> 01:03:15,280
going on. It was still a romantic relationship.
They were practically married, like husband, and
645
01:03:15,280 --> 01:03:19,280
wife.” And it's like, that's the same thing that
other people are saying about Louis and Lestat, is
646
01:03:19,280 --> 01:03:26,880
that they were married gay couple. But even Armand
goes on later to say, you know, [reading] «’But
647
01:03:26,880 --> 01:03:32,320
now Claudia has released you. Yet still you stay
with her and stay bound to her as your paramour,’
648
01:03:32,320 --> 01:03:37,680
He said. ‘No, she's no paramour of mine. You
understand.’ I said. ‘Rather, she's my child
649
01:03:37,680 --> 01:03:42,240
and I don't know that she can release me. These
were thoughts I'd gone over and over in my mind.
650
01:03:42,240 --> 01:03:47,040
I don't know if the child possesses the power to
release the parent. I don't know that I won't be
651
01:03:47,040 --> 01:03:52,080
bound for her as long as she…’ I stopped.
I was going to say for as long as she lives
652
01:03:52,080 --> 01:03:57,840
but I realized it was a hollow mortal cliche. She
would live forever as I would live forever, but
653
01:03:57,840 --> 01:04:02,560
wasn't it so for mortal fathers? Their daughters
live forever because their fathers die first.»
654
01:04:02,560 --> 01:04:09,440
[Courtney] And this is like right before the
vampires all kill Claudia. Spoiler alert. So like,
655
01:04:09,440 --> 01:04:17,120
this is the last real discussion that Louis
is having with anyone. And even Armand's like
656
01:04:17,120 --> 01:04:21,840
mistaking this to be a love interest and
Louis is like, “No, she's my daughter.”
657
01:04:23,040 --> 01:04:30,640
So, I don't know what to say. I don't know what
to say! But then for people who claim, you know,
658
01:04:30,640 --> 01:04:33,520
the love was between Lestat and Louis. Lestat is…
659
01:04:34,240 --> 01:04:38,880
Well, we don't get enough of his perspective in
this one to know how he really feels about Louis.
660
01:04:38,880 --> 01:04:43,920
Louis is talking down on him all the time,
talking about how this is a horrible relationship.
661
01:04:43,920 --> 01:04:46,800
And even though he says, you know,
[sarcastic] he has good eyes and good hair,
662
01:04:48,080 --> 01:04:54,960
“I might be a Christian and Jesus looked like
him,” you know, Armand starts talking about love
663
01:04:54,960 --> 01:05:01,420
and how he loved the vampire who made him a
vampire and Armand, yeah, straight up says,
664
01:05:01,420 --> 01:05:04,800
[Courtney] [reading] «’I wish I had the artist
power to bring alive for you the Venice of the
665
01:05:04,800 --> 01:05:10,640
15th century. My master’s palace there, the
love I felt for him when I was a mortal boy,
666
01:05:10,640 --> 01:05:16,320
and the love he felt for me when he made me a
vampire’ – and Louis is like – ‘Love? What is
667
01:05:16,320 --> 01:05:21,120
this love of which you speak? There was love
between you and the vampire who made you?’ I
668
01:05:21,120 --> 01:05:27,040
leaned forward. ‘Yes,’ he said. ‘A love so strong
he couldn't allow me to grow old and die. A love
669
01:05:27,040 --> 01:05:32,160
that waited patiently until I was strong enough
to be born into darkness. Do you mean to tell
670
01:05:32,160 --> 01:05:38,000
me there was no bond of love between you and the
vampire who made you?’ ‘None,’ I said, quickly.»
671
01:05:38,000 --> 01:05:46,480
[Courtney] None! Take– take that Lestat! Louis
never loved you! So Armond, definitely gay. Louis,
672
01:05:46,480 --> 01:05:52,800
probably was an Asexual even before becoming a
vampire. But that said, for lack of everything
673
01:05:52,800 --> 01:05:59,120
physical, and for evidence that he did not love
Lestat at all, he very much did love Armand.
674
01:05:59,680 --> 01:06:04,640
iIn talking to Claudia, he says [reading]
«’Either I go with him, or I die. And
675
01:06:04,640 --> 01:06:09,600
it's something else which is irrational and
unexplainable, in which satisfies only me.’
676
01:06:09,600 --> 01:06:16,720
‘Which is?’ She asked. ‘That I love him,’
I said.» So why Louis and Armand don't get–
677
01:06:16,720 --> 01:06:21,760
don't get the ships as often as they
do? [laughs] I will never understand.
678
01:06:21,760 --> 01:06:27,840
[Courtney] But yeah, the vampires in this new
coven are super suspicious of these two because
679
01:06:27,840 --> 01:06:32,560
they're being very secretive about the vampire
who met them. So they're already kind of on their
680
01:06:32,560 --> 01:06:38,160
bad side, but then Lestat shows up again, being
like “Surprise! I didn't die that time either!”
681
01:06:38,880 --> 01:06:45,840
And Lestat is just a mess, and he is just sloppy,
and sobbing and begging Louis to come back home.
682
01:06:46,800 --> 01:06:50,960
And he outright told these vampires
that Claudia tried to kill him
683
01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:57,760
so that they would condemn her to die so that he
could have Louis to come back home. So, I really,
684
01:06:57,760 --> 01:07:05,760
like, I don't think Lestat ever felt any true love
for Claudia. Bad Father Award again! I must say.
685
01:07:05,760 --> 01:07:10,480
[Courtney] But yeah, this whole time Lestat is
just begging him. “Come home to me, come back to
686
01:07:10,480 --> 01:07:17,840
New Orleans. I must talk to you.” The other
vampires, you know, track down Claudia, force
687
01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:25,120
her and Madeline, her new companion, out into the
sun where they are condemned to die. Lestat kind
688
01:07:25,120 --> 01:07:32,000
of lets all that happen. After Louis finds out
he's very upset, obviously, and Lestat is still
689
01:07:32,000 --> 01:07:37,120
just like, “Please. Please, you'll come with me. I
can't make you understand. We need to talk. Please
690
01:07:37,120 --> 01:07:42,560
come home Louis.” And then he's literally like
[reading] «the soft subdued sobs broke from him.»
691
01:07:42,560 --> 01:07:51,040
Like he's a mess. And Louis goes rogue, tries to
kill all the other vampires. Does warn Armand,
692
01:07:51,040 --> 01:07:55,520
“Hey I’m going and kill all the other vampires.
Maybe don't go home because I'm burning the whole
693
01:07:55,520 --> 01:08:01,600
place to the ground.” And Armand is, like, “Well
guess I'm getting all my stuff and heading out!”
694
01:08:01,600 --> 01:08:10,080
[Courtney] And yeah, the book kind of ends with
Armand and Louis traveling the world together for
695
01:08:10,640 --> 01:08:19,440
an indeterminable amount of time. Like, presumably
decades at least, where they go to Egypt and Asia,
696
01:08:19,440 --> 01:08:25,600
and they go to New York. And eventually
Armand confesses that Lestat wasn't
697
01:08:26,400 --> 01:08:31,440
there when Louis burned everything down, and
he's probably still alive and Louis very calmly,
698
01:08:31,440 --> 01:08:36,960
like “Okay, I guess I'll go talk to Lestat then.”
But he feels nothing for Lestat. He no longer
699
01:08:36,960 --> 01:08:43,600
seems to feel anything for Armand. He's just kind
of– they’re just companions, but Louis is kind of
700
01:08:43,600 --> 01:08:49,920
like “Sometimes I wish I was alone instead of
having Armand with me.” And that's kind of it.
701
01:08:49,920 --> 01:08:56,560
[Courtney] And I just think it's so fascinating
that so many different people can read this book
702
01:08:56,560 --> 01:09:06,000
and glean so many different contexts from it. And
it was very silly of me to also think that we were
703
01:09:06,000 --> 01:09:12,960
only going to talk about the first book in this
series for a few minutes, you know, maybe 15-20
704
01:09:12,960 --> 01:09:19,520
minutes tops… and then we'd move on to the next
book. But I see our runtimes getting a little
705
01:09:19,520 --> 01:09:29,280
long here. So let's consider this part one of the
Asexual reading of The Vampire Chronicles. Because
706
01:09:29,280 --> 01:09:34,400
if any of you out there are still skeptical, if
any of the out there are still thinking that maybe
707
01:09:34,400 --> 01:09:39,600
those vampires are actually having sex despite
all the evidence I've presented at this point…
708
01:09:39,600 --> 01:09:45,280
stick around! Maybe you'll be surprised
with what we have to unearth. Bye now.
