A Neurodiversity Framework

1
00:00:00,550 --> 00:00:04,580
REBECCA: Institutions are increasing their
focus on creating inclusive environments.
2
00:00:05,020 --> 00:00:07,810
In this episode, we discuss
a course design framework to
3
00:00:07,810 --> 00:00:09,760
support neurodiverse learners.
4
00:00:15,129 --> 00:00:15,250
[MUSIC]
5
00:00:15,460 --> 00:00:19,240
JOHN: Thanks for joining us for
Tea for Teaching, an informal
6
00:00:19,240 --> 00:00:22,930
discussion of innovative and effective
practices in teaching and learning.
7
00:00:23,519 --> 00:00:26,879
REBECCA: This podcast series is
hosted by John Kane, an economist…
8
00:00:27,379 --> 00:00:29,509
JOHN: …and Rebecca Mushtare,
a graphic designer…
9
00:00:29,859 --> 00:00:33,189
REBECCA: …and features guests doing
important research and advocacy work
10
00:00:33,299 --> 00:00:37,049
to make higher education more inclusive
and supportive of all learners.
11
00:00:41,469 --> 00:00:41,529
[MUSIC]
12
00:00:46,239 --> 00:00:47,839
Our guest today is Megan Kohler.
13
00:00:48,239 --> 00:00:51,810
Megan is an Assistant Teaching
Professor and Learning Designer
14
00:00:51,810 --> 00:00:55,580
in the John A. Dutton e-Education
Institute at Penn State.
15
00:00:55,879 --> 00:00:59,199
She is the recipient of the Marion
G. Mitchell Award for Innovative
16
00:00:59,199 --> 00:01:02,799
Teaching and is conducting research,
funded by the Schreyer Institute
17
00:01:02,799 --> 00:01:06,680
Scholarship, on supporting neurodivergent
learners in higher education.
18
00:01:07,049 --> 00:01:10,700
Megan is one of the co-editors of
The Multi-Disciplinary Instructional
19
00:01:10,700 --> 00:01:13,970
Designer: Integrating Specialized
Skills into Design Toolkits.
20
00:01:14,670 --> 00:01:15,639
Welcome back, Megan.
21
00:01:15,809 --> 00:01:15,999
MEGAN: Hi.
22
00:01:16,449 --> 00:01:18,370
Thank you so much for
having me here today.
23
00:01:18,370 --> 00:01:20,099
It's great to be talking
with both of you again.
24
00:01:20,500 --> 00:01:22,259
JOHN: We're very glad
to have you back again.
25
00:01:22,269 --> 00:01:23,049
It's been a while.
26
00:01:23,349 --> 00:01:23,919
MEGAN: It has.
27
00:01:24,459 --> 00:01:27,399
JOHN: Today's teas are:…
Megan, are you drinking any tea?
28
00:01:27,629 --> 00:01:29,089
MEGAN: Oh, I'm always drinking tea.
29
00:01:30,169 --> 00:01:34,889
[LAUGHTER] I have a lovely new tea, and
if you're willing to indulge me in a short
30
00:01:34,889 --> 00:01:36,479
story, I'd love to share that with you.
31
00:01:37,079 --> 00:01:42,499
So the tea that I'm drinking today is
called Paris, and it's by Harney and Sons.
32
00:01:42,869 --> 00:01:46,539
And I discovered this tea
completely by accident.
33
00:01:46,599 --> 00:01:49,929
It was Mother's Day, and my
husband decided to take me to
34
00:01:49,930 --> 00:01:51,579
this lovely little creperie.
35
00:01:51,849 --> 00:01:56,679
It's like 45 minutes away, and I
only drink tea, not a coffee drinker.
36
00:01:57,180 --> 00:02:02,279
And we get there, and they don't
have my tea, and so he grabbed this
37
00:02:02,279 --> 00:02:07,029
one, [LAUGHTER] and I tried it,
and absolutely fell in love, and
38
00:02:07,029 --> 00:02:08,639
this one has become my go-to tea.
39
00:02:08,729 --> 00:02:11,339
So I highly encourage you all to try it.
40
00:02:11,489 --> 00:02:13,159
because it's absolutely delicious.
41
00:02:13,869 --> 00:02:14,950
REBECCA: Such a great story!
42
00:02:15,139 --> 00:02:19,709
I had a tea emergency that John
solved for me today, so I'm drinking
43
00:02:19,709 --> 00:02:21,549
a decaf Irish breakfast tea.
44
00:02:21,610 --> 00:02:23,599
MEGAN: Oh, I love Irish breakfast!
45
00:02:23,599 --> 00:02:24,059
It's so good.
46
00:02:24,059 --> 00:02:25,469
It's got a lot of great flavor to it.
47
00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:27,699
REBECCA: Yeah, nice and
bold, nice and bold.
48
00:02:28,270 --> 00:02:33,179
JOHN: And we're in the midst of getting
this cloud of smoke from Canada from
49
00:02:33,190 --> 00:02:34,400
the fires that are burning there.
50
00:02:35,019 --> 00:02:40,449
In honor of that, I have some lapsang
souchong tea, which is a smoked tea.
51
00:02:40,929 --> 00:02:44,109
So it just adds to the
ambiance of the day here.
52
00:02:44,279 --> 00:02:45,679
REBECCA: So it’s smoky inside and out.
53
00:02:46,439 --> 00:02:46,489
[LAUGHTER]
54
00:02:46,579 --> 00:02:47,179
JOHN: Equally.
55
00:02:47,989 --> 00:02:50,969
REBECCA: So we've invited you here
today, Megan, to discuss your framework
56
00:02:50,970 --> 00:02:52,899
for supporting neurodiverse learners.
57
00:02:53,580 --> 00:02:55,920
First, though, can you tell us
how to define neurodiversity?
58
00:02:56,379 --> 00:03:00,740
MEGAN: That's a great question, and
it's also somewhat of a difficult
59
00:03:00,770 --> 00:03:03,520
question, and I'll explain why.
60
00:03:03,540 --> 00:03:07,900
So first and foremost, I try
to keep things very simple.
61
00:03:08,540 --> 00:03:11,760
I think the more simplistic we can
keep things, the more approachable
62
00:03:11,820 --> 00:03:16,100
they become for people, and that's
something that I really want to
63
00:03:16,100 --> 00:03:18,470
keep in mind in doing this work.
64
00:03:18,889 --> 00:03:21,569
The more approachable something
is, the easier it is for people to
65
00:03:21,570 --> 00:03:23,570
buy into it or to understand it.
66
00:03:24,140 --> 00:03:28,379
And so I think of neurodiversity
as largely just differences in
67
00:03:28,379 --> 00:03:32,929
the way that our brains function,
most often because of some form of
68
00:03:32,950 --> 00:03:36,519
condition such as autism or ADHD.
69
00:03:36,829 --> 00:03:40,129
Those are the two most common
ones that people think of, but
70
00:03:40,219 --> 00:03:42,489
it goes so far beyond that.
71
00:03:42,730 --> 00:03:46,969
It also includes things like
post-traumatic stress disorder, and
72
00:03:46,969 --> 00:03:50,639
a lot of people typically think of
like military veterans who have had
73
00:03:50,639 --> 00:03:52,279
some type of traumatic experience.
74
00:03:52,299 --> 00:03:53,700
But it's more than that too.
75
00:03:53,799 --> 00:03:56,880
You can have trauma from a wide
variety of things in your life.
76
00:03:56,889 --> 00:04:03,089
So there's cancer survivors who you talk
about their experiences having PTSD from
77
00:04:03,349 --> 00:04:05,269
cancer treatments that they've undergone.
78
00:04:05,519 --> 00:04:08,510
It also includes other
conditions such as dyslexia.
79
00:04:08,510 --> 00:04:14,599
Dyslexia is actually the most commonly
diagnosed condition over autism and
80
00:04:14,619 --> 00:04:18,619
ADHD, but yet, autism and ADHD are
the ones that people typically go to.
81
00:04:18,849 --> 00:04:25,040
And so, the reason why I think it's a
little challenging to come up with or
82
00:04:25,150 --> 00:04:30,939
to have a definition of neurodiversity
is because there are so many different
83
00:04:30,959 --> 00:04:33,809
perspectives that end up tying into this.
84
00:04:33,919 --> 00:04:38,499
So we have the medicalized version of
neurodiversity and what that means, and
85
00:04:38,499 --> 00:04:42,969
then we have the social movement and
what that means, and then in between
86
00:04:43,029 --> 00:04:47,749
those two sort of opposite ends, we have
the lived experience that fits between
87
00:04:47,750 --> 00:04:54,249
those, and that lived experience is
something that people hold very dear and
88
00:04:54,250 --> 00:05:00,379
very close to them, and that can impact
the way that they see and understand
89
00:05:00,629 --> 00:05:05,249
and perceive certain things about
neurodiversity and the many conditions
90
00:05:05,259 --> 00:05:11,409
associated with it, so it's not as simple
and as straightforward as it seems.
91
00:05:12,089 --> 00:05:15,689
JOHN: So there's quite a bit of
diversity in terms of neurodiversity,
92
00:05:15,929 --> 00:05:18,199
which makes some sense, I think.
93
00:05:18,959 --> 00:05:23,009
So how did you first become
interested in focusing on support
94
00:05:23,009 --> 00:05:24,480
for neurodiverse students?
95
00:05:24,879 --> 00:05:26,719
MEGAN: It was about eight years ago.
96
00:05:27,039 --> 00:05:33,320
My daughter was first diagnosed,
and it's a very long story
97
00:05:33,330 --> 00:05:35,499
and heart wrenching for me.
98
00:05:36,029 --> 00:05:40,569
I'll try to summarize it briefly, but
essentially we had had her in a daycare.
99
00:05:40,569 --> 00:05:44,819
We had her in a Montessori school, and
that was after having her in a different
100
00:05:44,830 --> 00:05:49,940
daycare, and they kept telling us
your daughter's really, really smart.
101
00:05:50,389 --> 00:05:52,919
And we were like, “Oh well, thank you.”
And they're like, “No, no, no, no,
102
00:05:53,099 --> 00:05:58,540
she's really smart.” And it was actually
their encouragement that we sought out
103
00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:03,780
a more academically focused program,
such as Montessori, and that was kind
104
00:06:03,780 --> 00:06:07,319
of always in the plan to begin with
because my husband and I both work at
105
00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:10,500
Penn State University and education is
something we're very passionate about.
106
00:06:10,750 --> 00:06:15,659
So we had had her in this Montessori
school, and we went there for an open
107
00:06:15,660 --> 00:06:19,020
house, and they started telling us all
of these wonderful things about her,
108
00:06:19,020 --> 00:06:22,790
and they had her demonstrating all of
these things that she could do for us.
109
00:06:22,820 --> 00:06:26,680
And then the teacher at the end of the
night said, "I would really love if
110
00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:29,949
you'd come back in and we could have a
more detailed conversation about your
111
00:06:29,950 --> 00:06:32,670
daughter.” And so I got really excited.
112
00:06:32,670 --> 00:06:35,489
I was like, "They've just told me how
brilliant she is and showed me all these
113
00:06:35,559 --> 00:06:40,609
wonderful things that she can do.” And
so I went in for the conversation, and
114
00:06:40,959 --> 00:06:45,390
as it went on, they just started sharing
more and more of these things, and they
115
00:06:45,390 --> 00:06:51,289
were like, "We notice that your daughter
isn't engaging in cooperative play, and
116
00:06:51,289 --> 00:06:56,430
that's something that we typically see
at this age and stage of development.”
117
00:06:56,659 --> 00:06:59,459
And so they just started talking about
all of these different things that they
118
00:06:59,459 --> 00:07:04,549
had observed with her, and then towards
the end of that conversation, they were
119
00:07:04,549 --> 00:07:07,810
like, “We think that she might have
autism, and we think that you should
120
00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:11,279
get her evaluated to see if this is
the case.” And so it turns out that
121
00:07:11,279 --> 00:07:13,810
she doesn't have autism; she has ADHD.
122
00:07:14,580 --> 00:07:20,629
But it was through that very long journey
of trying to get her diagnosed, and then
123
00:07:20,629 --> 00:07:25,439
eventually getting the diagnosis that, as
a mother, you want to do everything you
124
00:07:25,439 --> 00:07:29,599
can to try and support your children, and
so I dove into the research and started
125
00:07:29,610 --> 00:07:36,219
to recognize two things: one, that I
also had undiagnosed ADHD my entire
126
00:07:36,220 --> 00:07:40,089
life, and the light bulb went off, and I
was like, "Oh my gosh, this explains so
127
00:07:40,089 --> 00:07:44,259
much,” and that's very common in terms
of how people are starting to recognize
128
00:07:44,259 --> 00:07:49,020
their neurodivergence, but then also
something else that occurred to me at
129
00:07:49,020 --> 00:07:54,709
that point in time was that there's a
lot of support in K through 12, but then
130
00:07:54,709 --> 00:07:58,369
once students were going to college,
that support largely dropped away.
131
00:07:58,879 --> 00:08:03,499
Now again, this was eight years ago,
and we've seen some tremendous changes
132
00:08:03,500 --> 00:08:07,149
occurring in higher education, especially
around the amount of support that's being
133
00:08:07,149 --> 00:08:12,219
offered, but there's still so much work
that needs to be done, and that's actually
134
00:08:12,220 --> 00:08:15,829
one of the reasons why I designed the
framework that we're going to be talking
135
00:08:15,830 --> 00:08:21,709
a little bit about today, is because
everything I saw was very fragmented, and
136
00:08:21,789 --> 00:08:27,399
there was no comprehensive, clear pathway
that spoke not just to how do we support
137
00:08:27,399 --> 00:08:32,660
our learners from a learning perspective,
but how do we also address some of
138
00:08:32,669 --> 00:08:34,479
these more personal belonging needs?
139
00:08:34,479 --> 00:08:39,049
REBECCA: Can you talk a little bit about
why the framework needed to be created?
140
00:08:39,089 --> 00:08:45,279
In other words, why don't traditional
methods work for neurodiverse students?
141
00:08:45,300 --> 00:08:47,969
What challenges do
neurodiverse learners face?
142
00:08:48,519 --> 00:08:51,209
MEGAN: So, first of all, I think
that there are actually a lot
143
00:08:51,239 --> 00:08:54,770
of strategies that do work.
144
00:08:54,960 --> 00:09:01,719
It's just when you're looking at the
ocean that is learning, how do you whittle
145
00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:07,140
it down to find the strategies that
are most supportive of neurodiversity,
146
00:09:07,740 --> 00:09:11,569
and that's essentially what I've
tried to do for educators, is to dive
147
00:09:11,570 --> 00:09:15,440
into that research and to figure out,
okay, well, what are their needs?
148
00:09:15,689 --> 00:09:16,489
Where do we start?
149
00:09:16,500 --> 00:09:18,469
How do we even go about this process?
150
00:09:18,680 --> 00:09:21,109
And that was largely driven by
my daughter because I wanted to
151
00:09:21,109 --> 00:09:24,239
make sure that once she gets to
college, she's been supported too.
152
00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:30,030
So to sort of cycle back to your question,
there's a lot of strategies that do work.
153
00:09:30,889 --> 00:09:35,209
Challenges that neurodiverse learners
face in the more typical or more
154
00:09:35,209 --> 00:09:38,739
traditional classroom consist
of a number of different things.
155
00:09:39,039 --> 00:09:43,030
First and foremost, there is a lack
of understanding and awareness about
156
00:09:43,030 --> 00:09:47,660
what neurodiversity actually is, and
there's a lot of stereotyping, and
157
00:09:47,660 --> 00:09:49,339
we need to be very careful with that.
158
00:09:49,369 --> 00:09:53,719
And we're also starting to see, because
it has become more prominent, there's
159
00:09:53,719 --> 00:09:56,759
a lot of labeling that is going on.
160
00:09:57,329 --> 00:10:01,789
I've heard people in my different
social circles, and they will be like,
161
00:10:01,869 --> 00:10:05,969
"Oh, you know that person? Oh, they
are so on the spectrum,” and that's
162
00:10:05,970 --> 00:10:10,520
exactly the type of conversations or
statements that we want to avoid making.
163
00:10:10,729 --> 00:10:14,109
You don't ever want to do that
to somebody, and you don't know
164
00:10:14,110 --> 00:10:15,300
what their circumstance is.
165
00:10:15,300 --> 00:10:19,259
You don't know whether or not they have
a diagnosis, or they could simply be
166
00:10:19,259 --> 00:10:22,070
a person who is just a little quirky.
167
00:10:22,389 --> 00:10:26,129
That doesn't mean that they are
neurodivergent, so we need to be
168
00:10:26,389 --> 00:10:29,699
really, really careful about saying
things like that and putting labels
169
00:10:29,889 --> 00:10:31,839
where labels might not apply.
170
00:10:32,470 --> 00:10:36,779
But some of those challenges, I think the
most prominent one from my perspective
171
00:10:36,779 --> 00:10:38,960
is really sort of a social component.
172
00:10:39,479 --> 00:10:43,069
It's really making sure that our
diverse learners a re supported
173
00:10:43,479 --> 00:10:45,729
and made to feel like they belong.
174
00:10:46,369 --> 00:10:52,089
Belonging is such a huge piece of the
experience that we're offering nowadays,
175
00:10:52,599 --> 00:10:56,779
and it's really interesting because
educators and institutions as a whole
176
00:10:56,779 --> 00:11:01,649
are starting to recognize how much
the belonging piece impacts whether
177
00:11:01,649 --> 00:11:06,989
or not a student chooses to stay at an
institution, and not only that, there's
178
00:11:06,989 --> 00:11:13,189
a lot of other research that shows us
that when we start to engage students in
179
00:11:13,209 --> 00:11:19,400
things like social emotional learning,
they're building those skills socially,
180
00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:23,839
but they're also ending up developing
and reinforcing other skills that are
181
00:11:23,839 --> 00:11:26,379
critical to their academic experience.
182
00:11:26,869 --> 00:11:31,209
JOHN: What are some strategies that
we can use to create the sense of
183
00:11:31,209 --> 00:11:35,190
belonging, so that students do not feel
like they have some sort of a deficit?
184
00:11:35,959 --> 00:11:37,949
MEGAN: Yeah, that's a great question.
185
00:11:37,949 --> 00:11:41,209
[LAUGHTER] This is one of the reasons
why I love talking with you both, you
186
00:11:41,209 --> 00:11:43,260
both think so deeply about topics.
187
00:11:43,539 --> 00:11:48,909
So some strategies that we can think
about, and this is tapping into the
188
00:11:48,910 --> 00:11:52,269
model a bit, things like co-designing.
189
00:11:52,959 --> 00:11:57,640
So when you sit down and you work with
a student, or even if you share an
190
00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:02,030
assignment, for example, with the entire
classroom, allowing those students to
191
00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:05,100
come in and give their thoughts and
ideas on the assignment, see how it
192
00:12:05,100 --> 00:12:09,080
might need to be altered in order to
make them feel as though it's something
193
00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:13,489
that's achievable and attainable, and to
revise instructions that maybe don't make
194
00:12:13,490 --> 00:12:15,859
sense to them from their perspective.
195
00:12:16,250 --> 00:12:22,209
Allowing that exchange to occur
goes a long way to making a person
196
00:12:22,219 --> 00:12:24,130
feel as though they are accepted.
197
00:12:24,770 --> 00:12:29,999
We can also talk about things like
normalizing if somebody does have some
198
00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:34,800
type of a learning difference or a
disability in which it can be supported.
199
00:12:35,090 --> 00:12:39,179
When I give my keynote talk about this,
there's an example that I give about how
200
00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:45,269
using transcripts from videos or even
creating audio recordings of the lectures,
201
00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:51,729
so having the ability for every student
to be able to not just read the text
202
00:12:51,759 --> 00:12:54,269
but also to download an audio recording.
203
00:12:54,639 --> 00:12:57,139
I had a faculty member who
did that several years ago,
204
00:12:57,369 --> 00:13:00,579
and the students loved it.
205
00:13:00,989 --> 00:13:05,639
They just kept writing her all of these
notes saying “this was so fantastic,
206
00:13:05,669 --> 00:13:09,280
so wonderful. I was able to download
this, and I could listen to it at
207
00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:14,920
times that worked for me.” And when
you do that, you take some of the
208
00:13:14,930 --> 00:13:21,469
stigma away from people who need that
different format, and now you make it
209
00:13:21,479 --> 00:13:25,649
something that is really cool because
now it's just this different format.
210
00:13:25,650 --> 00:13:27,049
It's this different modality.
211
00:13:27,079 --> 00:13:31,509
There's almost like a novelty to
it to some degree that I think
212
00:13:31,509 --> 00:13:33,439
students really enjoy and appreciate.
213
00:13:33,949 --> 00:13:36,059
So those are a few quick examples.
214
00:13:37,220 --> 00:13:40,160
REBECCA: So we started to talk
a little bit about the valued
215
00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:44,699
minds model that you developed,
but we haven't really dug in yet.
216
00:13:44,699 --> 00:13:50,569
[LAUGHTER] So, can we talk a little bit
about the system that you've developed and
217
00:13:50,659 --> 00:13:52,679
the framework and what that looks like?
218
00:13:53,009 --> 00:13:54,369
MEGAN: Yeah, absolutely.
219
00:13:54,389 --> 00:13:56,769
And you probably noticed I've
been like holding back a little
220
00:13:56,769 --> 00:13:59,079
bit [LAUGHTER] because I'm
like, this is in the framework.
221
00:13:59,079 --> 00:14:00,199
[LAUGHTER] It's all in there.
222
00:14:00,619 --> 00:14:01,810
[LAUGHTER] Absolutely.
223
00:14:02,099 --> 00:14:05,909
So the framework really has
three core components to it.
224
00:14:05,919 --> 00:14:07,590
So the first is learner agency.
225
00:14:07,860 --> 00:14:11,819
The second is system design, and this
is where we tend to address a lot
226
00:14:11,819 --> 00:14:13,669
of our systemic barriers that occur.
227
00:14:13,809 --> 00:14:15,360
And then the last piece is belonging.
228
00:14:15,580 --> 00:14:20,359
Now within that, there's several different
layers or different components that
229
00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:21,750
should be taken into consideration.
230
00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:26,609
So within learner agency, the first thing
that we need to do when we're designing
231
00:14:26,610 --> 00:14:30,789
for neurodiverse learners is to start with
some foundational components, and that is
232
00:14:30,789 --> 00:14:37,979
really about integrating strategies that
support the executive functioning skills.
233
00:14:38,649 --> 00:14:45,120
So there is plenty of research that
exists that indicates that if you have a
234
00:14:45,259 --> 00:14:49,339
neurodiverse condition or a neurodivergent
condition, a lot of times there will be
235
00:14:49,339 --> 00:14:51,460
differences in the executive functions.
236
00:14:51,790 --> 00:14:55,310
And so, when we design for
those, what we're doing is sort
237
00:14:55,310 --> 00:14:57,060
of leveling the playing field.
238
00:14:57,270 --> 00:15:00,299
So, if somebody has a known issue
with working memory, and we're
239
00:15:00,300 --> 00:15:03,699
bringing in different types of
supports to help balance that out,
240
00:15:03,700 --> 00:15:09,589
so that there's not as much cognitive
load being expended on their part.
241
00:15:09,730 --> 00:15:13,209
Well, now you're instantaneously
putting them in a place where it's
242
00:15:13,209 --> 00:15:17,639
going to be easier for them to engage
in the learning process, rather than
243
00:15:17,650 --> 00:15:21,970
for them simply trying to decode or
to follow along in the way that you
244
00:15:21,980 --> 00:15:23,889
had originally intended them to.
245
00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:29,069
And then we bring in this accessibility
piece after those foundational components.
246
00:15:29,079 --> 00:15:33,179
So making sure that if somebody has
some type of a difference, and I
247
00:15:33,180 --> 00:15:37,159
think that this is really critical
for those more applied conditions
248
00:15:37,169 --> 00:15:39,600
such as like dyslexia and dyscalculia.
249
00:15:39,869 --> 00:15:43,729
So bringing in those accessibility
pieces to make sure that there are
250
00:15:43,730 --> 00:15:49,349
screen readers that can communicate
that information to them or help support
251
00:15:49,349 --> 00:15:51,729
them in the exploration of that content.
252
00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:54,330
That's really the next level or layer.
253
00:15:54,639 --> 00:15:58,559
And then when we talk about sort
of the custom design, that's
254
00:15:58,619 --> 00:15:59,799
a piece that fits in the top.
255
00:15:59,830 --> 00:16:04,039
And this is where I see a lot of people
approaching it in the inverse, a lot of
256
00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:08,289
people try to start with those custom
strategies and work sort of at that level.
257
00:16:08,290 --> 00:16:11,319
But if you do the foundational
components and the accessibility
258
00:16:11,319 --> 00:16:15,139
piece first, you're setting everyone
up for a much better success.
259
00:16:15,209 --> 00:16:20,010
So then, when we get to that custom piece,
this is really about sort of meeting
260
00:16:20,010 --> 00:16:25,669
people where they are and taking a look
at who they are and what their skills and
261
00:16:25,669 --> 00:16:30,589
abilities are, and very specifically what
their strengths are, and so one of the
262
00:16:30,589 --> 00:16:35,570
things that we need to be really aware
of is the fact that a lot of neurodiverse
263
00:16:36,150 --> 00:16:40,699
individuals have received a lot of
negative comments and a lot of negative
264
00:16:40,699 --> 00:16:42,739
feedback throughout their entire lives.
265
00:16:43,169 --> 00:16:48,569
In fact, it's estimated that by the
age of 10, a child who has ADHD – and
266
00:16:48,579 --> 00:16:54,219
these are metrics just for ADHD – it's
anticipated that that child has
267
00:16:54,219 --> 00:17:00,880
received 20,000 more negative messages
than their neurotypical counterparts.
268
00:17:01,750 --> 00:17:03,830
So that's something pretty significant.
269
00:17:04,410 --> 00:17:08,959
And so then when we think about the
language that we use and the way that
270
00:17:08,959 --> 00:17:14,389
we engage with those learners, we need
to be helping them recognize what their
271
00:17:14,389 --> 00:17:18,820
strengths are, and we need to be speaking
in a way, whether it's person-to-person
272
00:17:18,820 --> 00:17:21,199
conversation or even through our text.
273
00:17:21,879 --> 00:17:26,360
And a great example that I love to use
is when we're designing our rubrics using
274
00:17:26,459 --> 00:17:28,219
strength-based language in our rubrics.
275
00:17:28,219 --> 00:17:32,399
So, for example, you've probably
seen the rubrics that use categories
276
00:17:32,399 --> 00:17:34,829
that range from excellent to poor.
277
00:17:35,009 --> 00:17:39,939
But what happens when you put
the label poor on someone's work?
278
00:17:40,229 --> 00:17:44,240
That's a label that indicates that
they're lesser than, that they're not as
279
00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:49,050
good, and it's kind of an endpoint when
somebody tells you that your work is poor.
280
00:17:49,510 --> 00:17:53,639
So we need to be shifting that to using
language that's more along the lines of
281
00:17:53,750 --> 00:17:59,760
expert to novice, because if somebody
tells you you're a novice, your work
282
00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:03,370
is at the novice level, what does
that immediately make you think of?
283
00:18:03,950 --> 00:18:07,689
It makes you think of a trajectory
or a journey; that this is a starting
284
00:18:07,689 --> 00:18:11,640
point, but that you can grow beyond
what you're currently facing.
285
00:18:11,850 --> 00:18:15,800
So, strengths-based language is
absolutely a critical component of that.
286
00:18:16,039 --> 00:18:18,959
So, those are the three
layers of learner agency.
287
00:18:19,179 --> 00:18:23,379
Then we talk about system design, and
this is where we get into things such
288
00:18:23,410 --> 00:18:30,519
as accommodations, training for faculty,
things like the hidden curriculum.
289
00:18:30,809 --> 00:18:34,460
And I don't know how many people
necessarily think of hidden
290
00:18:34,460 --> 00:18:37,790
curriculum as being something that
we need to think about when we're
291
00:18:37,790 --> 00:18:38,509
talking about neurodiversity.
292
00:18:39,090 --> 00:18:42,479
It tends to be something that we think
about a lot with first-year students,
293
00:18:42,689 --> 00:18:46,179
but it's absolutely a component of
neurodiversity, and the reason for
294
00:18:46,180 --> 00:18:50,539
that is because a lot of it stems
from interpersonal relationships.
295
00:18:50,539 --> 00:18:54,159
That's how you become aware of
a lot of those components of
296
00:18:54,159 --> 00:18:57,560
hidden curriculum is through your
interactions and those relationships.
297
00:18:58,470 --> 00:19:03,569
So, making sure that we're addressing
that as part of this process as well,
298
00:19:03,989 --> 00:19:06,859
and then we also have other things
in there too, such as stigmatization,
299
00:19:07,900 --> 00:19:12,269
making sure that we are trying to reduce
stigmatization of our neurodiverse
300
00:19:12,269 --> 00:19:13,750
learners as much as possible.
301
00:19:14,070 --> 00:19:16,439
So that's all part of that
system design component.
302
00:19:16,549 --> 00:19:19,660
And the challenging piece with that
is that some of this that you can
303
00:19:19,660 --> 00:19:24,099
do in your classroom, and some of it
occurs at the institution level, so
304
00:19:24,139 --> 00:19:28,470
there's a wide range of approaches
that can be integrated within that.
305
00:19:28,729 --> 00:19:33,869
And then this last piece is belonging,
and where we start with that is
306
00:19:33,889 --> 00:19:35,649
with the concept of validation.
307
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:44,099
So making sure that we are bringing
in inclusive strategies that, as I
308
00:19:44,099 --> 00:19:48,979
mentioned before, not just help the
students feel a greater sense of
309
00:19:48,989 --> 00:19:53,570
belonging, but can also help them develop
those executive functioning skills.
310
00:19:53,909 --> 00:19:57,159
And the great example of that
is social emotional learning.
311
00:19:57,569 --> 00:20:01,429
But there's other things that we can
do too in terms of making students
312
00:20:01,550 --> 00:20:06,479
feel validated and supported,
such as peer-to-peer confirmation.
313
00:20:06,529 --> 00:20:11,370
You're making sure that you're enabling
students to give each other positive
314
00:20:11,370 --> 00:20:15,109
feedback and say, "No, you did really
great on that work. I really valued
315
00:20:15,110 --> 00:20:18,239
what you did here, and the way that
you did it was really great.” So
316
00:20:18,459 --> 00:20:23,830
integrating strategies such as that,
and then we get to recognition, which
317
00:20:23,830 --> 00:20:25,379
is the next piece of the framework.
318
00:20:25,389 --> 00:20:28,769
And so, recognition and accessibility
kind of parallel one another
319
00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:31,290
as those foundational elements,
the executive functions, and
320
00:20:31,290 --> 00:20:32,969
validation parallel one another.
321
00:20:33,190 --> 00:20:35,030
And we talk about recognition.
322
00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:39,650
We're talking about that normalization
of the different practices.
323
00:20:39,650 --> 00:20:44,849
So as I referenced that strategy before
about the audio recordings and just
324
00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:50,070
normalizing it, making it feel like
diversity is a part of everyday life,
325
00:20:50,100 --> 00:20:55,000
and it just belongs here, and it should
be recognized and it should be valued.
326
00:20:55,220 --> 00:21:00,139
And then the last piece of belonging
is this sort of modeling, if you
327
00:21:00,139 --> 00:21:05,030
will, of acceptance and what that
can look like in the classroom.
328
00:21:05,650 --> 00:21:09,310
So we talked about co-designing
information previously.
329
00:21:09,310 --> 00:21:13,179
So that's a great example, but
also making sure that we're making
330
00:21:13,180 --> 00:21:17,929
students feel like your classroom
is a place where it's okay to have
331
00:21:18,059 --> 00:21:20,599
those sort of fast-fail experiences.
332
00:21:20,820 --> 00:21:25,119
So nothing's ever a mistake, nothing's
ever a failure if you're learning
333
00:21:25,149 --> 00:21:27,339
from it, if you're growing from it.
334
00:21:27,349 --> 00:21:31,319
So making sure that we are creating
dynamics such as that, and if we do
335
00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:36,169
that, making sure that we're also tapping
into things like a student's motivation,
336
00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:41,960
helping them integrate things that are
really very important to them, and I
337
00:21:41,969 --> 00:21:46,499
think if we integrate all of these pieces
together, I think we can create our
338
00:21:46,500 --> 00:21:51,749
classrooms to be those more inclusive
environments for neurodiverse learners.
339
00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:54,629
Because we know that some of
the more traditional inclusive
340
00:21:54,629 --> 00:21:57,270
practices don't necessarily apply.
341
00:21:57,570 --> 00:22:01,239
And one of the things that I always get
sort of stuck on a little bit when it
342
00:22:01,239 --> 00:22:07,499
comes to inclusive strategies is that one
of integrating research papers or using
343
00:22:07,509 --> 00:22:12,759
articles published by authors who have
the same types of differences, whether
344
00:22:12,769 --> 00:22:17,159
it ends up being a disability or if
there's a different type of ethnicity.
345
00:22:17,360 --> 00:22:21,719
But how do you do that when the
difference is something that's invisible?
346
00:22:22,110 --> 00:22:26,330
So how do you know whether or not
the author of a paper has autism or
347
00:22:26,349 --> 00:22:30,780
ADHD or dyslexia or dyscalculia or
one of the many other conditions?
348
00:22:31,519 --> 00:22:36,379
And so that's why I think a framework
like this is something that's needed
349
00:22:36,379 --> 00:22:40,489
because there's shifts, there's
nuances that we need to address in
350
00:22:40,489 --> 00:22:42,680
order to create these dynamics that
351
00:22:44,729 --> 00:22:44,749
are neuroinclusive.
352
00:22:44,749 --> 00:22:47,749
JOHN: Now you mentioned that
some inclusive practices don't
353
00:22:47,750 --> 00:22:49,939
work as well for all students.
354
00:22:50,299 --> 00:22:53,509
Could you elaborate on that just a
little bit in terms of some things
355
00:22:53,509 --> 00:22:58,029
that people routinely do that may
not work as well for students with
356
00:22:58,179 --> 00:22:59,859
various forms of neurodiversity?
357
00:23:00,419 --> 00:23:04,460
You gave the example of papers
as one case, but could you
358
00:23:04,460 --> 00:23:05,689
give us some other examples?
359
00:23:06,509 --> 00:23:12,289
MEGAN: I think where there's a lot
of confusion is actually… this is
360
00:23:12,289 --> 00:23:15,949
another framework that I've been
researching and working on… but
361
00:23:15,959 --> 00:23:22,030
one of the things that I have seen
occurring is faculty not necessarily
362
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:30,409
understanding what is inclusive
support versus classroom management
363
00:23:30,789 --> 00:23:34,650
versus learning support and so on.
364
00:23:34,929 --> 00:23:40,100
So I was attending a conference not long
ago, and there was two very lovely women
365
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:44,680
who were leading this session, and at
one point they pulled up this Padlet
366
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:48,100
and they were like, "What strategies
do you think are going to be great
367
00:23:48,110 --> 00:23:51,990
instructional strategies for the students
in your classroom?” And I saw people
368
00:23:51,990 --> 00:23:56,450
just contributing things to the board,
and they were like, "Yes, all of these
369
00:23:56,450 --> 00:24:00,389
are wonderful.” And I just sat there
going, "No, that doesn't align with this.
370
00:24:00,410 --> 00:24:05,819
And hmm hmm…” and I saw
a lot of that confusion.
371
00:24:06,250 --> 00:24:09,870
So the paper example that we gave just a
second ago – that's typically an inclusive
372
00:24:09,870 --> 00:24:14,530
strategy, and that was one of the things
that was mentioned in this conversation.
373
00:24:14,889 --> 00:24:18,159
And I was like sitting there thinking
the same thing that I just communicated
374
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,840
to you, like, “Okay, but how do
we know? [LAUGHTER] How do we know
375
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,739
whether or not this person has a
neurodiverse condition?” But yet it
376
00:24:24,739 --> 00:24:27,180
was listed in one of those strategies.
377
00:24:27,430 --> 00:24:31,179
So a lot of times we're relying
on information that we know from
378
00:24:31,189 --> 00:24:34,879
other circumstances, and we're
not necessarily creating those
379
00:24:34,879 --> 00:24:37,719
subtle shifts that need to occur.
380
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:42,379
And so another great example
is classroom management.
381
00:24:42,669 --> 00:24:43,820
So I see this a lot.
382
00:24:44,219 --> 00:24:50,059
One of the people in this session listed
brain breaks as a great strategy, and
383
00:24:50,330 --> 00:24:53,800
the learning designer in me sat there
going, "Oh, wait a second. Are we
384
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:57,100
talking about breaks for the sake of
taking breaks?” Because we know that
385
00:24:57,100 --> 00:25:01,460
there's no research to back that up, and
if we're talking about breaks for the
386
00:25:01,460 --> 00:25:08,149
purposes of taking time to reflect on
information, then yes, that does work.
387
00:25:08,189 --> 00:25:13,429
But what they were talking about were
brain breaks in terms of getting up
388
00:25:13,500 --> 00:25:18,259
and moving around the room if you
felt like you couldn't focus on the
389
00:25:18,259 --> 00:25:22,069
information that was being shared at
that moment, and apart from the fact
390
00:25:22,079 --> 00:25:25,139
that there's research that says that
that's not actually how our brains work,
391
00:25:25,229 --> 00:25:30,830
and that's not the best way to help us
develop the ability to stay focused on
392
00:25:30,839 --> 00:25:36,920
information for a long time, that also
tends to align more so with the classroom
393
00:25:36,949 --> 00:25:42,119
management side of things rather than the
instruction side of things, so there's
394
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:49,159
a lot of misunderstandings and a lot of
confusion around what strategies actually
395
00:25:49,159 --> 00:25:54,180
align with what sort of categories
of support, if that makes sense.
396
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:59,539
So yeah, it can be very confusing unless
you spend a lot of time researching
397
00:25:59,559 --> 00:26:03,559
this, and I think one of the things
that made me very concerned at the end
398
00:26:03,559 --> 00:26:07,869
of the session was that the two women
who were leading this were like, "And
399
00:26:07,869 --> 00:26:12,239
we're going to be writing a book chapter
about this,” and so [LAUGHTER] that goes
400
00:26:12,300 --> 00:26:17,829
back to kind of the concept of right now
neurodiversity is kind of the wild west.
401
00:26:17,839 --> 00:26:20,860
There's a lot of really good advice
being put out there, and there's
402
00:26:20,860 --> 00:26:25,189
a lot of advice that we need to
evaluate a little bit more deeply.
403
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:30,989
But it's being put out there and could
actually be harmful in some ways, and
404
00:26:30,989 --> 00:26:35,229
so we need to have more conversations,
deeper conversations around that.
405
00:26:35,849 --> 00:26:39,420
JOHN: And that's where that co-creation
that you talked about before can
406
00:26:39,420 --> 00:26:42,369
help to address the needs of the
specific students in the room.
407
00:26:43,159 --> 00:26:45,750
REBECCA: Well, one thing that I'm
observing or thinking about as you're
408
00:26:45,780 --> 00:26:49,639
introducing the framework is that
it has components from a lot of
409
00:26:49,660 --> 00:26:53,149
other existing frameworks, and you
kind of hinted at this a little bit.
410
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:58,619
Things from universal design for learning,
TILT – transparency in learning and
411
00:26:58,619 --> 00:27:03,930
teaching, just good learning practices to
make sure we stay motivated around agency
412
00:27:03,930 --> 00:27:07,820
and things like that that are certainly
in UDL or Universal Design for Learning,
413
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:13,929
accessibility practices, relationship-rich
practices, but it's not inclusive
414
00:27:13,929 --> 00:27:15,000
of everything in those frameworks.
415
00:27:15,860 --> 00:27:18,940
Can you talk a little bit about the
process you use to pull what would
416
00:27:18,950 --> 00:27:23,639
be most important for neurodiverse
students from those existing frameworks,
417
00:27:24,209 --> 00:27:27,359
you kind of integrated them all
together and put them in one place.
418
00:27:27,389 --> 00:27:29,710
Can you just talk a little bit
about the process of doing that?
419
00:27:30,039 --> 00:27:34,759
MEGAN: Yeah, it was a lot of research,
[LAUGHTER] a lot of research and
420
00:27:34,770 --> 00:27:37,819
reflection and evaluating this.
421
00:27:38,329 --> 00:27:45,509
I think the thing is, is that there's so
much amazing work that has already been
422
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:49,399
done around the process of learning.
423
00:27:49,809 --> 00:27:55,059
We have all this great research about the
brain and how the brain functions and what
424
00:27:55,059 --> 00:28:01,140
it needs in terms of learning and how we
can best support the learning process for
425
00:28:01,140 --> 00:28:08,009
our students, and it was really just about
diving in and just trying to understand
426
00:28:08,330 --> 00:28:16,529
what the unique needs are for neurodiverse
learners, and then pulling the pieces
427
00:28:16,629 --> 00:28:22,869
that best supported those needs, and the
reality is, there's no one size fits all.
428
00:28:22,879 --> 00:28:28,659
There never is, and so I don't see this
as something that should ever be thought
429
00:28:28,659 --> 00:28:34,609
of as trying to replace UDL or trying to
replace TILT . That's not what anything
430
00:28:34,610 --> 00:28:37,449
we do in education is ever about.
431
00:28:37,649 --> 00:28:42,680
It's a tool next to several other
tools that, when it makes sense for
432
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:44,659
you to pull this in, pull it in.
433
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:50,869
Maybe there's a faculty member who is tied
very strongly to UDL, and they know their
434
00:28:50,869 --> 00:28:55,140
students very well, and they know that
UDL principles are going to work for them.
435
00:28:55,319 --> 00:28:56,720
Then they should use UDL.
436
00:28:57,029 --> 00:29:05,049
This is a tool in the toolbox of support,
and at the end of the day, there is never
437
00:29:05,099 --> 00:29:11,590
one perfect solution for everything,
for every learner, for every need.
438
00:29:12,239 --> 00:29:17,539
But that's hopefully one of the things
that I would really love for people
439
00:29:17,550 --> 00:29:23,789
that when they look at this framework,
they see that there is space for those
440
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:30,419
unique needs, and I think that that's
something that maybe is a little more
441
00:29:30,419 --> 00:29:33,679
challenging to find in some other models.
442
00:29:34,139 --> 00:29:41,360
But when I talk about that custom piece,
one of the things that having undiagnosed
443
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:48,010
ADHD my entire life, there were so
many times when I felt like I wasn't
444
00:29:48,010 --> 00:29:50,010
measuring up and I wasn't good enough.
445
00:29:50,660 --> 00:29:56,339
And in some circumstances, I had people
who were very supportive, and they
446
00:29:56,340 --> 00:29:59,799
would say, “Megan, you can do this.
447
00:29:59,799 --> 00:30:00,230
You can do this.
448
00:30:00,230 --> 00:30:02,010
Just let's figure this out.
449
00:30:02,170 --> 00:30:04,489
I'm going to help you, however you
need help, and we're going to figure it
450
00:30:04,490 --> 00:30:06,570
out.” But that was not always the case.
451
00:30:06,570 --> 00:30:15,640
I had a lot of other people who saw
my differences as shortcomings, and
452
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:22,280
they took that as an opportunity to
berate me and to tear me down, and
453
00:30:22,389 --> 00:30:28,699
it's those unique instances where you
have somebody that steps forward and
454
00:30:28,700 --> 00:30:33,929
says, "I see something amazing in you,
and I want to help bring that out. I
455
00:30:33,930 --> 00:30:39,159
want to help you shine, because I know
that you're capable of this.” That's
456
00:30:39,309 --> 00:30:41,869
that custom piece of my framework.
457
00:30:42,869 --> 00:30:51,259
That is where I think we have the biggest
ability to really make students recognize
458
00:30:51,260 --> 00:30:58,279
their own strengths, not just as students,
but as individuals with something
459
00:30:58,279 --> 00:31:05,830
incredible to contribute to the world,
we need to be shifting this paradigm from
460
00:31:06,159 --> 00:31:14,979
a deficit-based mindset of difference as
lesser to a place of different is unique
461
00:31:15,599 --> 00:31:17,550
with incredible opportunity behind it.
462
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:20,069
That is the goal of this framework.
463
00:31:21,199 --> 00:31:25,459
Sorry, I feel like that was very deep,
but you want to know why I do this work.
464
00:31:26,269 --> 00:31:26,829
That's why.
465
00:31:27,529 --> 00:31:30,679
REBECCA: It sounds like the custom layer
that you're talking about is really
466
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:35,919
important for what can really sometimes
be competing needs, like very different
467
00:31:35,919 --> 00:31:39,609
kinds of needs that, in some ways, like
on the surface, can look like they're
468
00:31:39,610 --> 00:31:43,970
directly in competition for one student
versus another because this student
469
00:31:43,970 --> 00:31:49,239
needs X and this student needs Y. But
if you had provided the opposite to
470
00:31:49,259 --> 00:31:50,949
the other, [LAUGHTER] it wouldn't help.
471
00:31:51,679 --> 00:31:55,710
MEGAN: Absolutely, and I'm so glad that
you mentioned that because that's one
472
00:31:55,710 --> 00:31:57,539
of the other things that I've noticed.
473
00:31:57,539 --> 00:32:01,609
So when I talked earlier about the
fragmentation that's occurring around
474
00:32:02,330 --> 00:32:03,630
neurodiversity, that's a large part of it.
475
00:32:03,989 --> 00:32:07,829
So you have people saying these are the 10
strategies that work for individuals with
476
00:32:07,839 --> 00:32:12,469
autism, and these are the 15 strategies
that work for people with ADHD, and then
477
00:32:12,479 --> 00:32:16,399
a large part of the other neurodiverse
conditions are just completely overlooked.
478
00:32:16,869 --> 00:32:20,979
And so in creating this framework,
I wanted to say that's not the way
479
00:32:20,979 --> 00:32:22,449
that we should be going about things.
480
00:32:22,729 --> 00:32:26,389
We need to be looking at the
common threads across all of these
481
00:32:26,419 --> 00:32:30,120
conditions, and that ends up largely
being the executive functions, which
482
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:31,579
is why that's the starting point.
483
00:32:31,889 --> 00:32:35,860
But then, how do we look for those common
threads, those common building blocks
484
00:32:35,910 --> 00:32:40,879
across these different conditions, while
at the same time allowing there to be
485
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:45,629
this degree of flexibility, so that
we can meet students where they are.
486
00:32:45,970 --> 00:32:49,359
A great example of those
differences that you just
487
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,120
mentioned… So my daughter has ADHD.
488
00:32:52,820 --> 00:32:53,689
I have ADHD.
489
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:59,139
We have completely different needs,
and yet we share the same genetics.
490
00:33:00,039 --> 00:33:04,979
[LAUGHTER] And yet our two
conditions are very, very different.
491
00:33:05,369 --> 00:33:06,280
She's brilliant.
492
00:33:06,289 --> 00:33:08,049
She is absolutely brilliant.
493
00:33:08,379 --> 00:33:13,350
She's in the gifted program at school,
and she's working at grade levels
494
00:33:13,399 --> 00:33:16,639
that are two grade levels higher
than where she's currently enrolled.
495
00:33:17,169 --> 00:33:21,320
She's looking at going into fifth
grade, but last year when she was
496
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:25,460
in fourth, they had her working
on math problems and reading books
497
00:33:25,460 --> 00:33:28,540
that were at the sixth grade reading
level and the sixth grade math level.
498
00:33:29,110 --> 00:33:30,729
I run away from math.
499
00:33:30,730 --> 00:33:36,249
[LAUGHTER] I run away from math as far
as I can possibly get, because I just
500
00:33:36,250 --> 00:33:41,419
don't have the working memory to be able
to hold the numbers in the right places.
501
00:33:41,820 --> 00:33:44,559
But yet she does it, and
she does it in her brain.
502
00:33:44,830 --> 00:33:48,730
And it's so fun because my husband's
an engineer, and we'll be driving
503
00:33:48,730 --> 00:33:52,809
in the car, and he'll just randomly
shout out a math problem, and
504
00:33:53,169 --> 00:33:54,640
they'll see who can answer it first.
505
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:57,929
And both of my children already have the
answer, and I'm like sitting there with
506
00:33:57,930 --> 00:34:02,800
my calculator [LAUGHTER] like hidden
down beside me because my brain's just
507
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,679
not structured that way, but hers is.
508
00:34:05,869 --> 00:34:13,059
So even when you have a specific condition
like ADHD, not all of those strategies
509
00:34:13,059 --> 00:34:17,759
are going to work for all of your students
with ADHD, so it's just so complex.
510
00:34:18,019 --> 00:34:20,809
It's so complex, which is why we
need to have that flexibility.
511
00:34:21,509 --> 00:34:22,679
REBECCA: I just want answers, Megan.
512
00:34:26,139 --> 00:34:26,189
[LAUGHTER]
513
00:34:26,489 --> 00:34:27,889
JOHN: But the answers are
different for each student.
514
00:34:27,889 --> 00:34:29,819
MEGAN: [LAUGHTER] They are.
515
00:34:30,229 --> 00:34:31,919
They absolutely are.
516
00:34:32,439 --> 00:34:35,919
REBECCA: It's really like the underlying
subtext always is like “Ah, why is
517
00:34:35,919 --> 00:34:37,840
this so complicated?” [LAUGHTER]
518
00:34:37,969 --> 00:34:39,759
MEGAN: Because humans are complicated.
519
00:34:40,449 --> 00:34:47,829
That's the bottom line: is that we are all
unique, and within that uniqueness, there
520
00:34:47,869 --> 00:34:56,029
is a beauty, but there's also complexity,
and it gets really hard when you're
521
00:34:56,029 --> 00:35:01,599
trying to be an educator who's working
towards addressing all of that complexity.
522
00:35:02,559 --> 00:35:07,389
I don't know that we give our educators
enough credit for how challenging it is to
523
00:35:07,389 --> 00:35:19,889
take a single message and ensure that 30,
60, 120, 200, 350 people in the same room
524
00:35:20,169 --> 00:35:25,319
all get an accurate understanding of what
that message is or what that concept is.
525
00:35:26,089 --> 00:35:27,799
REBECCA: You're kind
of asking for miracles.
526
00:35:30,300 --> 00:35:30,350
[LAUGHTER]
527
00:35:31,250 --> 00:35:33,570
MEGAN: Yeah, it is like
asking for a miracle.
528
00:35:33,819 --> 00:35:38,669
But that's also where we, as human
beings, that's where our neuroplasticity
529
00:35:38,670 --> 00:35:43,120
or our cognitive functions really
come into play because we can
530
00:35:43,270 --> 00:35:45,319
have that flexibility of thinking.
531
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:52,160
We can learn new ways of communicating,
and once you learn how a specific
532
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:56,289
faculty member communicates things or
what their expectations are, you, as a
533
00:35:56,289 --> 00:35:59,949
learner, you can be quite successful,
but the learning curve to that is not
534
00:35:59,949 --> 00:36:01,860
going to be the same for everybody.
535
00:36:02,039 --> 00:36:08,309
And so, the more that we can do to
address some of those differences,
536
00:36:08,759 --> 00:36:11,159
we're only going to make that
process easier on everybody.
537
00:36:11,430 --> 00:36:15,479
So, the days of I'm just going to sit
down, and I'm gonna create my course
538
00:36:15,500 --> 00:36:19,710
and write this lecture, that's not
sustainable, not for the way that we
539
00:36:19,710 --> 00:36:21,589
need to be thinking about our students.
540
00:36:21,589 --> 00:36:26,460
And a lot of these conditions,
the diagnoses are increasing.
541
00:36:27,149 --> 00:36:30,879
When I first started, even just a few
years ago, and so much has changed.
542
00:36:30,889 --> 00:36:31,789
So much has changed.
543
00:36:32,079 --> 00:36:37,049
But even just over the past few years,
we've seen the diagnosis of autism in the
544
00:36:37,049 --> 00:36:44,140
general population go from approximately
one in 100 down to one in 89, and now
545
00:36:44,189 --> 00:36:48,910
the census currently is that I believe
it's children under the age of eight,
546
00:36:48,930 --> 00:36:52,389
it's one in 63 are diagnosed with autism.
547
00:36:52,580 --> 00:36:59,699
So it's going to continue to change and
to flux, and the hope is that we also
548
00:36:59,699 --> 00:37:05,909
continue to have the compassion and the
desire to want to change and flux with it.
549
00:37:06,439 --> 00:37:10,799
JOHN: And I think an important takeaway
from what you've said is that when we
550
00:37:10,799 --> 00:37:16,369
give students encouragement that can make
a really big difference, but when we say
551
00:37:16,419 --> 00:37:22,250
anything that discourages students, that
can also have an extremely large impact.
552
00:37:22,549 --> 00:37:26,889
And we have to be really careful in how
we phrase things and how we communicate
553
00:37:27,059 --> 00:37:32,419
to students, so that we do focus on their
capabilities and their possibilities.
554
00:37:32,899 --> 00:37:36,349
MEGAN: Absolutely, and I think
there's one important thing to
555
00:37:36,349 --> 00:37:41,499
keep in mind with that is that it's
not about walking on eggshells.
556
00:37:41,509 --> 00:37:46,069
It's not about “oh, I can't say
this or I'll upset somebody.”
557
00:37:46,099 --> 00:37:50,170
It's about learning to think about
how we communicate differently.
558
00:37:50,729 --> 00:37:54,139
It's learning to think about taking
our words from a place where they
559
00:37:54,139 --> 00:38:00,309
communicate as though somebody isn't
measuring up, to a place where we are
560
00:38:00,580 --> 00:38:06,680
highlighting those strengths and making
them see the value in themselves and
561
00:38:06,750 --> 00:38:09,119
their future in what they can achieve.
562
00:38:09,429 --> 00:38:14,249
And so it's a subtle shift, but it's
an important one, and one of the
563
00:38:14,349 --> 00:38:16,979
reasons why I think it's so important.
564
00:38:17,209 --> 00:38:20,060
I don't know if either of you have
ever heard of rejection-sensitive
565
00:38:20,060 --> 00:38:22,649
dysphoria, more commonly known as RSD.
566
00:38:22,949 --> 00:38:29,539
It's a significant condition in which
a person really perceives as though
567
00:38:29,729 --> 00:38:33,769
the interactions that they have with
people, it always has a negative sort
568
00:38:33,769 --> 00:38:36,510
of perspective or a negative spin on it.
569
00:38:36,620 --> 00:38:39,490
You know, somebody says, "Hey, everybody,
we're going out for coffee,” or "Hey,
570
00:38:39,490 --> 00:38:43,050
everybody, we're going to a party,” and
the person sits there and thinks, "Well,
571
00:38:43,380 --> 00:38:45,939
of course, they're inviting everybody
else, but they don't mean to invite me.
572
00:38:45,940 --> 00:38:47,820
They must have forgotten that I was here.
573
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,749
They didn't see me or didn't recognize
that I was in the room.” So there's
574
00:38:51,750 --> 00:38:55,840
very much a sense of separation
that can occur around that too, and
575
00:38:55,840 --> 00:39:01,190
there's some instances of RSD that
are so severe that it actually causes
576
00:39:01,190 --> 00:39:03,299
physical pain for the individual.
577
00:39:03,879 --> 00:39:10,560
So it really is about shifting our
language so that we are raising people
578
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:13,999
up rather than tearing people down,
and this is something that I have
579
00:39:14,009 --> 00:39:16,249
conversations with my kids all the time.
580
00:39:16,779 --> 00:39:17,600
Do you have children?
581
00:39:17,770 --> 00:39:18,000
REBECCA: Yep.
582
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:18,050
[LAUGHTER]
583
00:39:18,340 --> 00:39:18,580
JOHN: Yes.
584
00:39:19,989 --> 00:39:21,919
REBECCA: Earlier, you
were describing my car.
585
00:39:23,469 --> 00:39:23,519
[LAUGHTER]
586
00:39:23,939 --> 00:39:24,269
MEGAN: Yeah.
587
00:39:24,340 --> 00:39:27,070
So we have these conversations
whenever there's a fight.
588
00:39:27,500 --> 00:39:28,249
The kids are in the back.
589
00:39:28,459 --> 00:39:31,709
“But he did this to me,” and
“but she did that to me,” and
590
00:39:31,709 --> 00:39:33,929
it's “Okay, okay, I hear you.
591
00:39:34,389 --> 00:39:37,319
Instead of accusing one another
and saying what they did was
592
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,190
wrong, how can you change this?
593
00:39:40,199 --> 00:39:45,249
How can you rephrase what it is that
you're thinking and feeling in a way right
594
00:39:45,260 --> 00:39:51,529
now that communicates what is happening
or what you feel is happening, but that
595
00:39:51,540 --> 00:39:57,219
you're not tearing the other person down
as a part of that process.” And we do
596
00:39:57,220 --> 00:40:00,820
a lot of reflection in our car rides.
597
00:40:00,820 --> 00:40:05,220
[LAUGHTER] My kids will say one thing,
and I'll say, "Okay, let's pause. How
598
00:40:05,220 --> 00:40:09,269
could you rephrase that?” [LAUGHTER]
Because the rest of the world isn't
599
00:40:09,269 --> 00:40:10,959
going to teach them how to do that.
600
00:40:11,430 --> 00:40:16,069
That's my responsibility as a parent,
and so we engage in those conversations
601
00:40:16,070 --> 00:40:20,130
a lot to be more aware of the
impact of our words on other people.
602
00:40:20,970 --> 00:40:24,419
REBECCA: We talked a little bit earlier
about things that we can do in the
603
00:40:24,419 --> 00:40:29,209
classroom, but also kind of a more
institutional or global approach or
604
00:40:29,220 --> 00:40:31,509
systematic approach that needs to happen.
605
00:40:31,509 --> 00:40:34,719
And the conversation that we're
having right now makes me think about
606
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:37,639
one of the ways that these things
can be modeled is also at like the
607
00:40:37,639 --> 00:40:41,849
employee level at an institution,
which trickles down also to students.
608
00:40:42,309 --> 00:40:45,540
That this kind of a framework can
be used in other contexts outside
609
00:40:45,540 --> 00:40:49,970
of a classroom setting that enhance
the learning environment overall.
610
00:40:50,229 --> 00:40:54,130
MEGAN: Absolutely, yeah, and I need to
do a little bit more research because
611
00:40:54,130 --> 00:40:58,799
there are definitely nuances between the
classroom versus the work environment.
612
00:40:59,119 --> 00:41:03,289
But I think a really quick piece
that could be swapped out is take
613
00:41:03,289 --> 00:41:07,739
a look at hidden curriculum and
replace it with office politics.
614
00:41:08,489 --> 00:41:09,259
REBECCA: It's all the same.
615
00:41:11,209 --> 00:41:11,259
[LAUGHTER]
616
00:41:11,259 --> 00:41:12,659
MEGAN: To some degree, to some degree.
617
00:41:12,660 --> 00:41:13,409
REBECCA: Yeah, yeah.
618
00:41:14,069 --> 00:41:14,184
MEGAN: It is.
619
00:41:14,184 --> 00:41:18,009
[LAUGHTER] But yeah, and that is
the thing that I hope to be able
620
00:41:18,009 --> 00:41:21,990
to do with this work is to carry it
forward because it's so interesting
621
00:41:21,990 --> 00:41:23,289
when I have these conversations.
622
00:41:23,289 --> 00:41:27,549
Practically every single time I've had a
conversation about this framework, that
623
00:41:27,550 --> 00:41:32,350
question has arisen: “Can we use this
for the office environment too?” I’m like
624
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:37,310
“Yeah, with some modifications, but yeah,
absolutely.” So you have a coworker who
625
00:41:37,310 --> 00:41:39,370
continually struggles with deadlines.
626
00:41:39,980 --> 00:41:41,669
There's your executive functioning skills.
627
00:41:42,090 --> 00:41:44,180
It can absolutely be applied.
628
00:41:44,190 --> 00:41:47,700
I just need to sit down and
make some of those modifications
629
00:41:47,700 --> 00:41:48,909
and some adjustments with that.
630
00:41:48,910 --> 00:41:49,709
So stay tuned.
631
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:50,819
[LAUGHTER] It's coming.
632
00:41:50,830 --> 00:41:50,930
[LAUGHTER]
633
00:41:51,820 --> 00:41:53,069
REBECCA: Seems pretty
workable at the moment.
634
00:41:53,069 --> 00:41:53,119
[LAUGHTER]
635
00:41:54,209 --> 00:41:55,459
MEGAN: Thank you, thank you.
636
00:41:55,459 --> 00:41:55,869
[LAUGHTER]
637
00:41:55,869 --> 00:41:58,589
JOHN: We always end with
the question: What's next?
638
00:41:59,359 --> 00:42:00,409
MEGAN: What is next?
639
00:42:00,929 --> 00:42:07,039
I'm currently working on a co-edited
book with the amazing Adam Davi,
640
00:42:07,290 --> 00:42:10,789
who's a good friend from our days
working with the Online Learning
641
00:42:10,790 --> 00:42:15,549
Consortium, volunteering with them,
and this book is titled Advancing
642
00:42:15,549 --> 00:42:17,269
Learning Design in the Age of AI.
643
00:42:17,889 --> 00:42:22,899
And what we are hoping to capture
within this book is the conversation
644
00:42:22,930 --> 00:42:28,819
around now that AI is essentially
commonplace and everybody has access
645
00:42:28,820 --> 00:42:32,489
to it, and we're seeing more and more
people leverage it for designing their
646
00:42:32,489 --> 00:42:37,160
courses, what does that relationship
look like as a learning designer?
647
00:42:37,519 --> 00:42:38,639
Where do we shift?
648
00:42:38,639 --> 00:42:39,779
How do we shift?
649
00:42:39,779 --> 00:42:46,209
What do we need to be realigning
in terms of our workflows and our
650
00:42:46,220 --> 00:42:52,329
responsibilities so that we can leverage
AI to better support the work that
651
00:42:52,330 --> 00:42:58,240
we do, but also helping understand
that AI is not a replacement for a
652
00:42:58,240 --> 00:43:00,829
learning designer, and it never will be.
653
00:43:01,379 --> 00:43:06,709
And if you know and understand anything
about simply writing learning objectives,
654
00:43:06,720 --> 00:43:09,379
there's a great example just within that.
655
00:43:09,389 --> 00:43:12,969
So I don't know if you've
asked any AI system to write
656
00:43:12,970 --> 00:43:14,310
learning objectives for you.
657
00:43:14,939 --> 00:43:15,659
They are lacking.
658
00:43:15,669 --> 00:43:20,180
[LAUGHTER] They do not follow a very
traditional learning objective format,
659
00:43:20,509 --> 00:43:24,349
and it can take you quite a bit of back
and forth to even get that to a point
660
00:43:24,349 --> 00:43:26,399
where AI is getting something even close.
661
00:43:26,769 --> 00:43:28,609
So there's a lot of misunderstandings.
662
00:43:28,629 --> 00:43:33,000
People are putting information in or
asking ChatGPT to come up with, “Oh,
663
00:43:33,029 --> 00:43:37,049
give me a course outline” or “write
this assessment for me,” and it does it.
664
00:43:37,439 --> 00:43:41,159
But is it what you actually intended?
665
00:43:41,259 --> 00:43:43,559
Is it what the students actually need?
666
00:43:43,739 --> 00:43:47,339
Is there alignment with
your instructional goals?
667
00:43:47,369 --> 00:43:53,659
Is there alignment with the overall goals
of the course at the programmatic level,
668
00:43:53,669 --> 00:44:00,019
like there's so many things that AI can't
fully understand because it just gives
669
00:44:00,020 --> 00:44:02,309
you that response to that one prompt.
670
00:44:02,809 --> 00:44:05,179
So there's a lot that AI can't do.
671
00:44:05,500 --> 00:44:07,029
We still need humans in the process.
672
00:44:07,039 --> 00:44:08,560
So what does that look like now?
673
00:44:08,879 --> 00:44:11,209
So yes, that's the thing that's
coming down the pipeline.
674
00:44:11,220 --> 00:44:11,270
[LAUGHTER]
675
00:44:12,699 --> 00:44:14,330
REBECCA: Sounds like
an exciting adventure.
676
00:44:14,979 --> 00:44:15,799
MEGAN: I think it will be.
677
00:44:17,149 --> 00:44:17,199
[LAUGHTER]
678
00:44:17,199 --> 00:44:18,019
JOHN: Thanks for joining us.
679
00:44:18,190 --> 00:44:20,939
It's always great talking to you,
and we're looking forward to hearing
680
00:44:20,940 --> 00:44:22,819
more about these future projects.
681
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:23,810
MEGAN: Excellent.
682
00:44:23,810 --> 00:44:24,740
Thank you so much.
683
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:33,340
[MUSIC]
684
00:44:33,340 --> 00:44:33,430
JOHN: If
685
00:44:36,420 --> 00:44:40,490
you've enjoyed this podcast, please
subscribe and leave a review on Apple
686
00:44:40,530 --> 00:44:43,069
Podcasts or your favorite podcast service.
687
00:44:43,670 --> 00:44:48,179
To continue the conversation, join us
on our Tea for Teaching Facebook page.
688
00:44:49,150 --> 00:44:51,759
REBECCA: You can find show
notes, transcripts and other
689
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:54,089
materials on teaforteaching.com.
690
00:44:55,119 --> 00:44:57,090
Music by Michael Gary Brewer.
691
00:44:57,090 --> 00:45:01,090
[MUSIC]