Broken Arrow | Eugen Killer? | Single Malt Strategy | Episode 92

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Hello everybody, It's the Historical Gamer, but you can call
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me Matt and welcome back to the Single Malt Strategy podcast.
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Today I'm joined with my trustee co host Tortuga Power.
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How are you doing today, Tortuga, I'm.
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A little under the weather, so apologize in advance, but
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I'm still happy to be here and excited about this
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one awesome.
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And we also have with us wolf Pack three four five.
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How are you going to doing today? Wolf?
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Hello?
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Hello, doing great? And last, but it's certainly not least.
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I don't even know what I'm referring to on the
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podcast anymore. Finish Jaeger, I believe.
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Yeah, yeah, that's still me.
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Okay, yeah, today.
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We're fight everything.
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I'm still the same U. And today we're going to
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be talking about kind of a little bit of RTS
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focused but driven by the fact that Broken Arrow has
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come out from Slytherin and it's been pretty popular. So
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I think we're going to be talking a little bit
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about Broken Arrow. We'll probably be talking a little bit
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about the Eugen games, Warno being the most recent as well,
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but just sort of this genre of real time tactical lights.
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I don't know, well, we can get into it. But
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today's episode theme, I suppose this Broken Arrow.
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Are these tactical wargame whatever. I don't know how to
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call them, but they seem to actually have a real
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emphasis on multiplayer as well. Is that like part of
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their tagline. It seems to be part of Broken Arrows
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tagline and a lot.
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Of like competitive stuff too.
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Yeah. The only one that kind of tried to break
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away from that mold, which was the relatively recent was Regiments. Yeah,
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I would say because of Regiments. I wouldn't say it's
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a requirement, because Regiments is certainly like a Eugen I
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refer to them as Eugen likes. Yeah, that's fair. Eugen
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obviously sort of popularized the genre, I think in kind
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of the mainstream, and a lot of these games feel
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like they're kind of trying to take their their take
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on that genre, if you will, because it's it's very unique,
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Like I wouldn't call it similar at all to like
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Combat Mission or other like more tactical grog Nardi crunchy games.
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There's almost like an arcade sort of speed to it,
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mixed in with like the you know, the depths that
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they try to provide with the games. But I don't
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want to get ahead of ourselves. Yeah, so before we
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jump into the discussion of the game, do we want
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to do, like, what have you been playing? I guess
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probably just this, right, I mean I've been playing something different,
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but yeah, let's do it was a quick one then. Yeah.
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The game I've been recently playing is Warhammer forty thou
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Rogue Trader. This is the latest CRPG by Alcat Games,
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who did Pathfinder, Brath of the Righteous, and Kingmaker if
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I'm remembering correctly. But I'm having a lot of fun
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with it. They just had a new DLC. I kind
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of started getting into it and I've been playing it
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almost NonStop in my free time, So highly recommend it
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if you're into CRPGs and forty K nice. I've actually
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been playing quite a bit of Civil war games, sort
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of tied with the we're you know, we're recording this
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on the eleventh of July and sort of tied in
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with the Steam War Game sale or whatever that's sale was.
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I played sort of Gettysburg The Tide Turns, which is
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kind of a failed turn base almost like map playing
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Gettysburg game where it's kind of like playing on an
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Atlas Scourge of War, which I've played a bunch of
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on the Channel in the past. It's probably the most
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like detailed tactical simulation of a civil war game. And
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then I did some you know, some Sid Meyers Gettysburg,
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a little bit of a blast of the past. So
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kind of went down the civil war rabbit hole over
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the last few weeks and have been playing a lot
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of those tactical civil war games.
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I have been. Right off of our Tycoon podcast, I
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picked up Two point Hospital, so I've been playing a
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little bit of that, and I've also been playing this
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Emperor of the Fading Suns. Have we talked about that
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on the podcast at all? I don't remember.
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It sounds familiar, but I don't think we talked about
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it in great depth.
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If we did, yeah, okay, Well, it's an enhanced version,
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basically a re release from like a nineteen ninety nine game,
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which I still considered like the sweet spot of war gaming.
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So it's good, it's a lot of fun. It's yeah,
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like Shadow Empire, but different. I guess if I was
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to give a very brief summary.
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When you say a sweet spot of war gaming, like
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that era late nineties.
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Or yeah, that era, there was so much good stuff.
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Because I mean that manch was with Sid Meyers Gettysburg.
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Also like that was ninety eight.
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Yep, I would consider that as one of them, like
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the Imperium Galactica stuff. Wait, no, Master Ryan, I should
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say one and two even like Civilization two is around then.
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I mean there's a lot of good war games.
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Not really a war game, but also Centauri came out
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right around them.
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Also, No, I mean ZIP two isn't either, but there
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was like this you could play it as a war game.
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Oh no, we're getting back in that discussion.
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Move on quick. Once a war game, Finn. What about you?
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What have you been up to.
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I've been playing a game called Wingspan on Steam. It's
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basically the like a computer game version of the board game.
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It's a game about birds. You play bird cards and stuff.
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It's kind of fun.
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I'm playing a multiplayer. You can also play a single
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player on Steam. And then, I guess a couple of
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months ago, I was pretty deep into a couple playthroughs
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of Drusader Kings three. They have some DLC coming out
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later in the year that's doing an expansion to all
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of East Asia. So that's kind of just kind of
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refamiliarizing myself with the game mechanics because I want to
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definitely play you know as like China, Korea, Japan, they're
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doing all that area, so that's gonna be a ton
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of fun.
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I did not realize that that's awesome.
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Yeah, I think it's like an October November thing. The
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four of us should try to play that absolutely well.
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Today's topic, as we've already alluded to, recently, a game
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called Broken Arrow came out. It is developed and I'm
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I'm sorry if I'm butchering the pronunciation, but it's developed
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by a company called Steel Balakia, who I believe is
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a Russian developer, but it sounds like they've got like
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folks kind of all over too. Yeah, they're primarily Russian.
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And then it is published by Slytherin, so sort of
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the wargame centric sort of, I wouldn't call it. They're
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almost like a micro publisher, but they tend to publish
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like smaller in terms of audience wise, more more groggy wargames.
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It seems like this game is done really well by
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Slytherin Stamp, I mean, by anyone's standards, but by Slytherin
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standard Thert's for sure, over fourteen thousand reviews on Steam.
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I just realized the reviews are mixed, which is interesting. Yeah,
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I was gonna say that's caveat success.
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I mean, it's got a lot of sales, for sure.
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I think that Slytherin's got their money worth out of this.
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But I don't think the reception of the game has
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been entirely positive. There's definitely I mean, I'm pretty positive
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on it, as we'll see throughout the podcast. But there's
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so many there's a lot of low hanging fruit that
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you can nitpick at this game. It's got a lot
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of quality of life and needs.
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Before we jump into that, you know, does anyone want
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to take the stab on like what is I know,
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we sort of hinted like eugen like, like what is
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Broken Arrow? It's eugen like, I guess, but modern era,
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which is so I guess, let's qualify what is eugen
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like for someone who doesn't know, uh, real time RTS.
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So usually get your you got your deck builder of
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your either your different factions when you play the map,
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you have different points that you're trying to compete over.
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You have some sort of like unit replenishment system either
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that's either like phases or like a ticking clock that
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gives you points per minute. All the Usion games have
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stuff like that, from Steel Division to The War Game
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to Warno, and then Broken Arrow has a similar system
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in that. So you have those kind of things that
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are across the RTS field with this genre of game.
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And it has both a single player and the multiplayer ability.
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I think in my experience with Eugen is the hardcore
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folks who play Usien games a lot tend to skew
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toward the multiplayer and perhaps even competitive side of things.
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Is that true of Broken Arrow as well? Or I
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would think so. And I think a lot of the
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negative reviews are coming from I think partially that multiplayer crowd.
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I mean, I don't know the Dove's logic here, but
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I think you know, you have a game, an RTS
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game they want to kind of emulate that multiplayer kind
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of competitive scene. Is a ton of games that are like,
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we have to promote being competitive scene, right, and I
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think that that Broken Arrow is kind of I don't
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know if they want to say copying, but they're going
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along that trend that you see with games across the genre.
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But that's including more no wargame Red Dragon absolutely agree.
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It's interesting and it doesn't shock me if they're having
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some growing pains with managing like competitive multiplayer, because I
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think that's an often underdiscussed complex thing to do, like
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when it comes to matchmaking and all of everything that
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goes with with that kind of a scene that I
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don't think is as easy as as maybe you would
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think in first glance, although certainly not a programmer, so
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I'm not going to try to speak to the details
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of everything you need to solve for that.
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Well, everyone's going to try to like cheese, or they're
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going to try to find some sort of meta I
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think back to like you know, wargame Red Dragon. I
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think with like the helicopter spam and things like that,
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people just trying so many different things to get like
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that competitive edge, and some of it, I'm sure as
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people were, like they're so obsessed with their their win
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rate and their KD, et cetera. But you know, some people,
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I think also just want to experiment. And if you're
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going to you're creating a game that both has single
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player and multiplayer, then you're going to be spending so
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much time balancing multiplayer because you have hundreds of thousands
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of people potentially right playing playing your multiplayer game and
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trying to find so many different ways to win that
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you're going to be spending a whole lot of your
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I guess, like post release dev time fixing what the
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community is kind of like creating and cheesing.
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Yeah, and I guess that's kind of where I mean.
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Part of the problem comes in with these games for
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me is they're balanced to you know, adjust for that meta,
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and then it makes the games inherently not realistic, I suppose.
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I mean, these aren't very realistic games. I guess it
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is something we should also mention.
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Well, oh okay, actually.
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I mean I was hit from this perspective. They they
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at least give you an armory of a lot of
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realistic units, I mean, things that are really out there.
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Oh okay, I mean there are some things which are
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not realistic as well. You can definitely debate about whether
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or not the stats for these units.
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Are correct, you know.
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I mean, I think actually one of the things I
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enjoy is when I succeed in the game, I realize
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I'm doing it in a way which is kind of
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mirroring the way success happens in real combat, right Like
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when you can pin a unit, flank them. Stuff like this,
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When I feel like I'm doing realistic strategies, it gives
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me the at least the illusion that the game is
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doing something realistic.
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Oh man, I don't see any T seventy two turrets
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jumping off the screens. So yeah, I didn't mean to
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interrupt your whole thought. That was meant to be a
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shirt little quip. Well shoot, I guess that derailed it.
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I get I do get what you're saying, but I
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do think games like this tend to like the meta chasing.
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For example, you build your deck where you know everything
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has aps or whatnot, and infantry seems kind of useless
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in this game, So why would I take infantry? I
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understand what you're saying, like you use combined arms tactics
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in the game to successfully capture an objective, and the
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games do do that. But yeah, I was gonna say,
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I think I think where these games fall is they
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want to appear. And this goes for the whole genre
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a lot. Is that fucking are you in Chicago?
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What were that that was right outside my window?
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Was that a fucking gunshot? Is that firework? We're gonna
241
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like a child's scream here that they hear the do
242
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you hear the cars? I saw, yes, I heard the
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sirens that I heard a gun show and I was like,
244
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oh my god.
245
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My windows started to light up from the actual firework
246
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going up, and I'm like, what that?
247
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So pack uh realism. So I think, you know, the
248
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interesting thing in these games, and this goes for the
249
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whole genre, is they want to sell you on the
250
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notion of a being realistic. You've got all these real
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unit types, You've got all this equipment that looks cool,
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looks visually, you know, engaging. You know, That's one of
253
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the things I think is worth calling out with these
254
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games is you rare have the time to stop and look.
255
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But they do generally look really good when you when
256
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you do take a moment to like look at your
257
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units and whatnot. But they want you to feel and
258
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think that things are realistic. But it's a veneer. It's
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a thin veneer of realism where you know, at the
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end of the day, everything is subservient to balance within
261
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the game. It's not based on is this is the
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N one a too? Really this good relative to the
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you know, to the ten ninety is the ten ninety.
264
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This good relative to the the Bradley or whatever. It's
265
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really whatever serves the game. There are I would agree,
266
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there are moments where it's like it feels like I'm
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doing realistic things. I think one of the things I
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noticed was, and I don't think a lot of players
269
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are doing this at least early on, is you've got
270
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you've got actual said packages or aircraft with you know,
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anti radiation missiles, and so if you're playing on a map,
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I mean this is modern warfare, You're going to be
273
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dealing with a lot of SAMs. And if you're trying
274
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to use your aircraft without suppressing those SAMs, aircraft are
275
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gonna get blown out of the sky at a at
276
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a very high rate. So it behooves you to have
277
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someone in your in your and we can talk about
278
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sort of the way that co op works, but it
279
00:13:04.720 --> 00:13:06.879
behooves you to have either in your deck or someone
280
00:13:06.919 --> 00:13:10.120
on your maps deck. Some you know, aircraft is the
281
00:13:10.159 --> 00:13:13.000
ability to destroy enemy sam's, so you can try and
282
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open up the skies a bit for your your ground
283
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attack packages. And in that sense, like conceptually it's realistic,
284
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like real tactics are you know, useful in that sense,
285
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But what I think where the game sort of falls
286
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off for me a bit on the realism side of
287
00:13:29.120 --> 00:13:31.279
things is like, I don't get the sense that any
288
00:13:31.320 --> 00:13:38.919
of these units performance or you know, even the way
289
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that you're using these these units is you you're trying
290
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to tell the audience that this is a realistic looking
291
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and feeling game. But at the end of the day,
292
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everything about performance, everything about tactics is subservient to what
293
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is the right balance for this as sort of a
294
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multiplayer game. At least that's the that's the way most
295
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of these games pay out. I mean, sure, at the
296
00:14:01.279 --> 00:14:03.120
end of the day, it's it's about balance. So I
297
00:14:03.159 --> 00:14:05.519
would never I would never call this like a tactical
298
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combat simulator. It is not realistic in the way that
299
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like combat mission.
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But let's let's hear what Wolf had to say, because
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he had an opinion about this. I kind of expressed
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00:14:14.000 --> 00:14:16.440
the pro realism standpoint. Let's see what Wolf has to
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00:14:16.480 --> 00:14:18.080
say on the On the opposite.
304
00:14:17.639 --> 00:14:22.120
Side, I kind of do agree with what thhd is
305
00:14:22.120 --> 00:14:24.600
is really getting at. I mean, I don't know why.
306
00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:28.320
I don't think Broken Arrow is necessarily realistic, and maybe
307
00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:31.200
it is because of because it's an arcade game, and
308
00:14:31.240 --> 00:14:33.879
maybe it is because of the balance. It's like seeing
309
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T fourteen armadas. Yeah, you know, rolling up in mass
310
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It's like, okay, I don't know, it just kind of
311
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takes me out of it. All the T nineties have APS,
312
00:14:44.240 --> 00:14:48.159
all the abrams have aps, like active protection systems. It's
313
00:14:48.200 --> 00:14:50.559
also a pacing thing, for what it's worth, Like these
314
00:14:50.600 --> 00:14:54.559
games are play at an incredibly high tempo that is
315
00:14:55.120 --> 00:14:59.399
probably not realistic. They're really fast paced. It is you
316
00:14:59.519 --> 00:15:02.159
have to stay on top of everything. You don't get
317
00:15:02.200 --> 00:15:04.919
a moment I get and I you know, what do
318
00:15:05.000 --> 00:15:07.879
I know? But there's no moments to really breathe or
319
00:15:07.879 --> 00:15:08.320
set up.
320
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Yeah, I think that's a little bit different than the
321
00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:14.000
realism thing. But I do agree. Okay, so I agree
322
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with all the points that you guys are making about realism.
323
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I don't want to I don't want to go too
324
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far into the store too. But I don't know if
325
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i'd agree with that, because I do think when a
326
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game becomes a clickfest that takes away from the realism
327
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that it's trying to sort of sell itself as a
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military simulator.
329
00:15:27.960 --> 00:15:29.759
Well, what I mean is, if you're going to command
330
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an army What actually happens is you give an order
331
00:15:32.559 --> 00:15:35.200
and then a lot of people do something. But in
332
00:15:35.240 --> 00:15:37.519
this game, you're the one doing all those things, so
333
00:15:37.720 --> 00:15:40.360
it has to be a clickfest because you're controlling every unity.
334
00:15:40.559 --> 00:15:43.000
But from the realism standpoint, like, I agree with what
335
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you guys are saying that everything in the game has
336
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to be subservient to balance. That's I agree with that,
337
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and I think that that's the limit of realism for
338
00:15:51.000 --> 00:15:52.600
a game that needs to be a Yeah, it needs
339
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to be competitive in multiplayer unless you sacrifice that well,
340
00:15:56.840 --> 00:15:59.279
if you're willing to, like I don't know, probably even
341
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insult the Rush if you were to revamp them so
342
00:16:01.720 --> 00:16:04.759
they don't have T fourteens because we've already seen like
343
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what are those?
344
00:16:05.600 --> 00:16:09.159
Right? I agree it is a multiplayer game issue. Like
345
00:16:09.799 --> 00:16:12.679
I think of wars Under. When I think of this stuff,
346
00:16:12.799 --> 00:16:16.600
it's like you have, you know, tigers going up against
347
00:16:16.720 --> 00:16:21.080
lepper ones for example, just to fit in this arbitrary
348
00:16:21.159 --> 00:16:24.039
balance bracket. What are you talking about? Wolf war Thunder
349
00:16:24.080 --> 00:16:28.200
has a simulation mode. Yeah, okay, and I guess in
350
00:16:28.240 --> 00:16:30.960
that mode you I think you do play as the
351
00:16:31.039 --> 00:16:34.519
historical tanks and the historical leaders. Someone will correct me
352
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about it talking about wars ont But.
353
00:16:37.879 --> 00:16:40.639
The idea is you're nailing the idea. That's the point, right,
354
00:16:40.840 --> 00:16:43.399
is that they these gimes are all making sacrifices to
355
00:16:43.440 --> 00:16:45.840
have a game which is balanced for multiplayer.
356
00:16:45.360 --> 00:16:47.960
Competitive multiplayer environment. Yeah, absolutely, so.
357
00:16:48.039 --> 00:16:51.240
Yeah, my perspective on realism was just that it makes
358
00:16:51.279 --> 00:16:53.159
me feel kind of realistic when I'm watching the two
359
00:16:53.240 --> 00:16:56.200
armies collide and I'm watching the maneuvers I'm doing. I
360
00:16:56.320 --> 00:16:58.919
like it from that perspective as being realistic. But no,
361
00:16:59.039 --> 00:17:01.360
I you know, I don't think that the actual stats
362
00:17:01.360 --> 00:17:03.879
for these We've seen a lot of complaints about that
363
00:17:04.039 --> 00:17:07.960
on the forums and on the Steam or views, so
364
00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:09.400
I'm sure that those are not balanced.
365
00:17:09.559 --> 00:17:12.000
And to be fair, it's like we don't know, yeah, exactly,
366
00:17:12.039 --> 00:17:14.039
when you have a game that's set in the present
367
00:17:14.079 --> 00:17:17.079
and potentially slightly in the future, you have all these
368
00:17:17.200 --> 00:17:19.839
vehicles that you have no real data for, so you're
369
00:17:19.839 --> 00:17:22.720
making it up. So then you're balancing with you know,
370
00:17:22.759 --> 00:17:26.519
what someone might think or what open source data is,
371
00:17:26.559 --> 00:17:29.680
which is a lot of the times incorrect, especially with
372
00:17:29.720 --> 00:17:31.759
some of the Russian equipment. And then I don't want
373
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to I guess I didn't want to say, like we
374
00:17:32.960 --> 00:17:35.519
have Russian devs, so they're making Russian equipment like, you know,
375
00:17:35.559 --> 00:17:39.079
slightly better something than what we see fighting in Ukraine
376
00:17:39.200 --> 00:17:41.880
or you know, the T fourteen, which is you know,
377
00:17:42.759 --> 00:17:45.559
potentially not even like a functional military vehicle and stuff
378
00:17:45.559 --> 00:17:48.079
like that. So when you have when you have like
379
00:17:48.119 --> 00:17:51.759
this fog of war of like of technology, you can
380
00:17:51.839 --> 00:17:53.799
balance in a way that's not realistic.
381
00:17:53.880 --> 00:17:56.000
Well, and to be fair, there are Western units in
382
00:17:56.039 --> 00:17:57.759
the game as well that are not like what was
383
00:17:57.799 --> 00:18:00.000
it that is it the M ten Booker or whatever?
384
00:18:00.319 --> 00:18:02.000
The MP ten Bookers in there?
385
00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:05.359
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was canceled, right, So but the
386
00:18:05.480 --> 00:18:07.440
N ten in the game is garbage, so it's not
387
00:18:07.480 --> 00:18:09.480
like they made some super unit out of it.
388
00:18:09.599 --> 00:18:11.640
Yeah, it's like the T fourteen is actually you know,
389
00:18:11.680 --> 00:18:14.720
a kaream of its top tier and it doesn't really
390
00:18:14.880 --> 00:18:17.599
you know what, there's maybe fourteen of them. I mean
391
00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:20.160
that's the same as like the what the soup fifty
392
00:18:20.319 --> 00:18:22.200
seven or whatever. There's what like ten of them in
393
00:18:22.240 --> 00:18:25.039
the real world. I think they're actually, yeah, maybe there's more.
394
00:18:25.079 --> 00:18:26.960
It didn't even need to happen with the M ten too,
395
00:18:27.039 --> 00:18:29.240
Like they could have had plenty of realistic tanks to
396
00:18:29.240 --> 00:18:30.960
fill that role. I'm not even sure why it's in
397
00:18:31.000 --> 00:18:31.519
the game.
398
00:18:31.359 --> 00:18:33.839
But yeah, I mean this game does have a lot
399
00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:36.920
of hypothetical or you know, maybe in ten years.
400
00:18:36.799 --> 00:18:39.079
Probably can jump all over on this. But I've played
401
00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:41.359
a lot of the campaign, and the campaign is kind
402
00:18:41.359 --> 00:18:44.000
of they do have you bring in like future units.
403
00:18:44.279 --> 00:18:47.000
I'm not even sure they're available in the multiplayer stuff,
404
00:18:47.039 --> 00:18:50.359
but you get active access to some really advanced infantry
405
00:18:50.839 --> 00:18:54.279
that have like probably fictational you know, the eighty four,
406
00:18:54.440 --> 00:18:56.759
there's like a future version of that that has a
407
00:18:56.839 --> 00:18:59.440
range of like eight hundred meters and that's like not
408
00:18:59.519 --> 00:19:03.680
at all anyway, So you get access to like advanced
409
00:19:03.759 --> 00:19:05.799
units that don't exist in your life yet, but they're
410
00:19:05.839 --> 00:19:07.039
just like future projections.
411
00:19:07.079 --> 00:19:09.279
If it's not obvious from the way we're talking, you know.
412
00:19:09.359 --> 00:19:11.759
One of the unique pieces of Broken Arrows that it
413
00:19:11.839 --> 00:19:16.160
is a modern day one of these, whereas like typically
414
00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:19.319
Eugenus played in the near past where they're looking at
415
00:19:19.319 --> 00:19:22.559
like Cold War or World War II stuff regimens was
416
00:19:23.240 --> 00:19:26.839
Cold War also, I believe, right, and then Broken Arrows
417
00:19:26.839 --> 00:19:29.000
sort of like, hey, this is like modern day, like
418
00:19:29.079 --> 00:19:31.799
there's drones even although not I don't think they've got
419
00:19:31.880 --> 00:19:35.160
quad copters. But yeah, you're talking like twenty twenties in
420
00:19:35.279 --> 00:19:38.680
terms of time frame. So was Red Dragon like Sat
421
00:19:38.680 --> 00:19:41.400
in the two thousands? I thought Red Dragon was Cold
422
00:19:41.599 --> 00:19:42.920
War in Asia.
423
00:19:43.319 --> 00:19:45.599
Yeah, I would say it was more in the eighties. See,
424
00:19:45.640 --> 00:19:47.680
I've seen like a spanned a few decades, not just
425
00:19:47.720 --> 00:19:50.440
a specific point in time. I get the impression that
426
00:19:50.440 --> 00:19:53.519
Broken Arrow is actually focusing on like a specific point
427
00:19:53.519 --> 00:19:55.759
in time, probably around twenty twenty two when they were
428
00:19:56.079 --> 00:19:58.519
first developing the game. I don't always started developing in
429
00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:01.319
twenty twenty one, and that's key, I think only because
430
00:20:01.680 --> 00:20:05.240
they started development before Russia and Bada Ukraine. Again.
431
00:20:05.279 --> 00:20:07.640
Yeah, this game's been in the press for quite a while.
432
00:20:07.720 --> 00:20:11.200
I mean there's been a big marketing cycle for this game.
433
00:20:11.240 --> 00:20:14.000
When was it announced? Even I got that one trailer,
434
00:20:14.119 --> 00:20:16.519
I had a lot of hype behind I think because
435
00:20:16.559 --> 00:20:20.000
it was a modern day Eugen s game. So is
436
00:20:20.039 --> 00:20:22.079
this the only one of the games that has nukes?
437
00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:25.119
I don't think Eugen has nukes. Yeah, and it has nukes.
438
00:20:25.160 --> 00:20:28.279
That's something that's kind of unique about it as supposed to.
439
00:20:28.519 --> 00:20:31.279
Broken Arrow was announced in twenty nineteen. Yeah, so it's
440
00:20:31.319 --> 00:20:32.440
been a while as.
441
00:20:32.359 --> 00:20:34.720
Part of a crowd funding wow twenty nineteen. Okay, so
442
00:20:34.759 --> 00:20:36.720
I was off by a couple of years, Sorry about that.
443
00:20:36.680 --> 00:20:41.079
During a crowdfunding campaign on the Russian crowdfunding platform boom Starter.
444
00:20:41.720 --> 00:20:44.119
That's a name, but yeah, I mean it's it's it's
445
00:20:44.160 --> 00:20:46.480
been you know, in the hopper for a bit.
446
00:20:46.920 --> 00:20:49.000
Okay, So let me go back to one thing we
447
00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:51.440
were mentioning before, if you don't mind, we talked about
448
00:20:51.440 --> 00:20:53.640
the pace, the like really frenzied pace. You have to
449
00:20:53.640 --> 00:20:55.440
play this game. This is one thing I'd like to
450
00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:58.480
compare with Warno and wargame series. In those games, you
451
00:20:58.480 --> 00:21:01.759
have a replay system, so to a degree, it's okay
452
00:21:01.759 --> 00:21:04.000
if you aren't paying attention, you know, you set off.
453
00:21:04.079 --> 00:21:06.119
Like in this game Broken Arow you can like drop
454
00:21:06.160 --> 00:21:08.880
a nuke, which is obviously a pretty moment that you
455
00:21:08.880 --> 00:21:11.880
don't want to miss. But in like the wargame series,
456
00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:14.559
you could send up your bombing run or whatever it
457
00:21:14.680 --> 00:21:16.920
was and know that it's going to do its job
458
00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:19.160
and you don't really need to see the effect because
459
00:21:19.200 --> 00:21:22.880
that's just aesthetics, right, It's just visual glorification, satisfying, but
460
00:21:22.920 --> 00:21:26.000
it doesn't advance your strategy to watch something like that.
461
00:21:26.119 --> 00:21:27.799
In wargame you'd be like, Okay, I can just watch
462
00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:29.759
it in the replay. Well, Broken Arrow doesn't have a
463
00:21:29.799 --> 00:21:32.200
replay system. So I really feel like this game and
464
00:21:32.599 --> 00:21:35.400
it's very difficult too. I think that we've all played
465
00:21:35.400 --> 00:21:38.359
together some co op vers ai and it really pushes you.
466
00:21:38.359 --> 00:21:40.359
You can't really sit back on your heels. I mean,
467
00:21:40.359 --> 00:21:42.480
on the some of the wargame co op vers ai
468
00:21:42.599 --> 00:21:45.519
games I've played, you can set the game settings low
469
00:21:45.599 --> 00:21:47.920
enough that it's easy enough you can actually watch stuff,
470
00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:50.000
you know, and you can actually smell the roses while
471
00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:52.640
you're playing. But I don't get that impression. In Broken Arrow.
472
00:21:52.680 --> 00:21:55.279
Things are always pretty frantic, and I never have time
473
00:21:55.319 --> 00:21:57.039
to like watch what I want to watch because I
474
00:21:57.039 --> 00:21:59.279
always have to be planning out where my next you know,
475
00:21:59.319 --> 00:22:02.359
supply points can be, or advancing new troops. So that's
476
00:22:02.359 --> 00:22:04.000
one thing I would say is that if Broken Air
477
00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:07.200
wants to be a game like the wargame series, especially
478
00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:10.279
because I think it plays really well into any multiplayer
479
00:22:10.319 --> 00:22:13.119
competitive scene, it's really important to have replays, and they
480
00:22:13.160 --> 00:22:14.880
don't have that right now. It's kind of a question, well,
481
00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:16.720
why did they even launch without that? I'm not sure.
482
00:22:16.759 --> 00:22:18.799
Maybe they just don't have the development resources and they
483
00:22:18.799 --> 00:22:21.319
need the money now. But yeah, what are your thoughts.
484
00:22:21.680 --> 00:22:23.920
I have seen a lot of complaints about the lack
485
00:22:23.960 --> 00:22:27.359
of replay for multiple reasons, a lot of the reasons
486
00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:30.240
you listed before. But this game does seem to have
487
00:22:30.359 --> 00:22:32.920
an issue with hackers, and that is one of the
488
00:22:32.960 --> 00:22:35.799
reasons the game is sitting at mixed on Steam right
489
00:22:35.839 --> 00:22:38.839
now is there's been a slew of hackers coming in
490
00:22:39.799 --> 00:22:42.240
and kind of ruined a lot of people's experience. And
491
00:22:42.319 --> 00:22:45.359
with a replay system, players are able to verify, oh,
492
00:22:45.400 --> 00:22:48.839
this dude was hacking and send a proper buger or
493
00:22:49.119 --> 00:22:53.759
proper report in, but that functionality is not in the game.
494
00:22:54.200 --> 00:22:57.559
Just to touch on pacing real fast, I have issues
495
00:22:57.599 --> 00:23:01.359
with pacing and pretty much all of these games. I
496
00:23:01.400 --> 00:23:06.119
do think I like broken Arrows pacing the best, especially
497
00:23:06.200 --> 00:23:10.720
when it comes to armor. Armor feels really good in
498
00:23:10.759 --> 00:23:15.200
the game. Somethings like infantry is incredibly squishy, and I
499
00:23:15.240 --> 00:23:19.519
know infantry is squashy, but whenever your infantry's in a building,
500
00:23:19.680 --> 00:23:22.440
you have twenty guys and one BMP just lights the
501
00:23:22.440 --> 00:23:25.359
building up and kills all of them. It's like a skyscraper.
502
00:23:25.480 --> 00:23:27.599
I'm just like, Okay, come on. So it's like some
503
00:23:27.680 --> 00:23:30.599
things I can take my time with, like armor and plan,
504
00:23:30.880 --> 00:23:33.559
and then I look away for a couple of minutes
505
00:23:33.599 --> 00:23:35.519
and my infantry I had in a building is just
506
00:23:35.559 --> 00:23:38.880
annihilated by one small unit. And these games are really
507
00:23:38.920 --> 00:23:41.519
fast paced. So I have issues with pacing in it.
508
00:23:41.599 --> 00:23:44.000
But I have the same problem actually with my armor.
509
00:23:44.039 --> 00:23:46.880
So I am I guess yeah, yeah, I mean I
510
00:23:46.920 --> 00:23:49.759
have my armor. Like I look away and I look
511
00:23:49.799 --> 00:23:52.319
back and I see the ATGM going at them. I'm like,
512
00:23:52.359 --> 00:23:55.240
oh crap, and then they're bye bye. So I mean
513
00:23:55.240 --> 00:23:58.000
with infantry sometimes because they have a number of guns
514
00:23:58.039 --> 00:24:00.359
in the squad, unless you get like a really high
515
00:24:00.400 --> 00:24:02.480
area effect like a big bomb, you know, a nuke
516
00:24:02.519 --> 00:24:04.559
will do it. But even like attack comes or anything
517
00:24:04.599 --> 00:24:06.640
like that, they usually don't eliminate the whole squad, so
518
00:24:06.640 --> 00:24:08.359
you have a small amount of time. Like when that
519
00:24:08.440 --> 00:24:11.000
PMP is shooting at the building, there's usually a small
520
00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:13.079
amount of time where you can like right click them
521
00:24:13.119 --> 00:24:15.799
out of the building, although they do take like five
522
00:24:15.839 --> 00:24:18.000
seconds to get out, so they might be dead before
523
00:24:18.039 --> 00:24:20.720
that happens. But I mean, what I'm all I'm trying
524
00:24:20.759 --> 00:24:23.119
to say is I think it's a problem for all
525
00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:26.880
my units. My airplanes die fast, my vehicles die fast,
526
00:24:26.920 --> 00:24:29.680
and my Infantruye dies fast. As like you said, So, Yeah,
527
00:24:29.720 --> 00:24:32.200
that pacing is really tough. I mean, it's not a
528
00:24:32.240 --> 00:24:34.240
game you're allowed to really enjoy while you're playing it.
529
00:24:35.079 --> 00:24:37.319
Yeah, And it's like these games have beautiful I mean,
530
00:24:37.359 --> 00:24:40.279
we've talked about this. These games have beautiful graphics. They
531
00:24:40.319 --> 00:24:42.559
all look good, and it's just like you'd never have
532
00:24:42.680 --> 00:24:45.720
time to sit back and smell the flowers. You're just
533
00:24:45.799 --> 00:24:49.400
always clicking. You're always zoomed out. If you're not zoomed out,
534
00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:52.160
you're a fool, you know, I mean, you put yourself
535
00:24:52.160 --> 00:24:55.240
out a big disadvantage for you know, admiring the graphics.
536
00:24:55.799 --> 00:24:57.160
Do you want to talk a little bit about the
537
00:24:57.200 --> 00:24:59.559
campaign Tortuga, because I know you mentioned playing it. I
538
00:24:59.599 --> 00:25:01.000
was curious what your thoughts were on it.
539
00:25:01.640 --> 00:25:03.519
Yeah, before I do, as anybody else played it.
540
00:25:03.799 --> 00:25:05.880
I have I well larded it. I did the tutorial.
541
00:25:06.039 --> 00:25:09.680
Okay, Yeah, I've gotten maybe eight or nine missions deep,
542
00:25:09.799 --> 00:25:13.039
probably seven missions or eight missions into the US and
543
00:25:13.119 --> 00:25:15.599
two missions into the Russian one. It's very difficult. It's
544
00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:18.680
kind of has a similar feel to how we've all
545
00:25:18.720 --> 00:25:20.640
played co op for SAI, and I think we've found
546
00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:22.880
it challenging. I'll let us talk about that after this.
547
00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:26.039
But for the single player campaign, there's also another big
548
00:25:26.079 --> 00:25:28.160
feature which is missing, and I think this has been
549
00:25:28.279 --> 00:25:31.920
widely reported on the Actually, the developers even acknowledged this
550
00:25:32.599 --> 00:25:34.720
in their first like release plan what are we going
551
00:25:34.799 --> 00:25:37.039
to do next? For the big patch? They talked about
552
00:25:37.079 --> 00:25:39.839
how there's no save game feature for a single player
553
00:25:40.039 --> 00:25:44.000
and the missions are so long. They're at least an hour,
554
00:25:44.079 --> 00:25:46.119
an hour and a half, sometimes two hours. So what
555
00:25:46.160 --> 00:25:48.200
that means is either you play for two hours straight.
556
00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:50.960
This game, by the way, it's beautiful, as Wolf was mentioning,
557
00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:55.119
it's my to me, it's my favorite like visual game
558
00:25:55.160 --> 00:25:58.279
of this style. I think it has I just everything
559
00:25:58.279 --> 00:26:00.599
about it to me is spot on as far as
560
00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:03.480
the graphics go. It's very enjoyable, very easy on the eyes.
561
00:26:03.519 --> 00:26:06.240
But it pays the price for that in terms of resource,
562
00:26:06.759 --> 00:26:09.599
your computer resource usage. So I don't really want to
563
00:26:09.680 --> 00:26:12.799
like AFK for like four hours if I go, you know,
564
00:26:13.119 --> 00:26:15.359
some do something I have to do while my GPUs
565
00:26:15.440 --> 00:26:18.319
running at one hundred percent at home, Like I don't know,
566
00:26:18.359 --> 00:26:20.480
there's no it's kind of a frustrating thing. Okay, So
567
00:26:20.599 --> 00:26:22.240
let me just put that point aside and just say
568
00:26:22.279 --> 00:26:26.480
the campaign is very difficult, but I found it really engaging.
569
00:26:26.759 --> 00:26:28.799
I found myself like, I have very limited time, and
570
00:26:28.839 --> 00:26:30.519
I find myself like every night I'm like, I'm going
571
00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:33.279
to get another mission into that campaign. So a game
572
00:26:33.319 --> 00:26:35.880
like that which draws me back and like, really, I'm
573
00:26:35.920 --> 00:26:38.720
really excited to play the next mission. Despite how difficult
574
00:26:38.759 --> 00:26:40.799
it is, I would say it's a really good campaign,
575
00:26:40.880 --> 00:26:43.559
So I can actually recommend it if you're able to
576
00:26:43.559 --> 00:26:46.440
finagle around the point that you can't save the game,
577
00:26:46.519 --> 00:26:48.559
that even if you lose a mission, you've got to restart,
578
00:26:48.640 --> 00:26:51.279
and it's kind of a pain. But I still think
579
00:26:51.400 --> 00:26:53.599
despite all that, it's worth it, which means it's really
580
00:26:53.640 --> 00:26:55.279
worth it, right, And if they ever were to get
581
00:26:55.279 --> 00:26:57.680
a save game feature, that would be even better.
582
00:26:58.119 --> 00:26:58.960
That's my initial thoughts.
583
00:26:59.000 --> 00:27:01.400
I actually thought you were talking about the voice acting earlier.
584
00:27:01.440 --> 00:27:04.880
I think it's actually relatively well polished, like surprisingly well.
585
00:27:05.000 --> 00:27:07.480
And maybe this is just because the foil for it
586
00:27:07.519 --> 00:27:10.920
is Wargame, which never really invested in that single player
587
00:27:11.079 --> 00:27:13.759
ever since. Like the opening one, I think European Escalation
588
00:27:14.119 --> 00:27:15.119
was that the first wargame.
589
00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:17.559
I don't know if I would agree with that in
590
00:27:17.640 --> 00:27:19.799
terms of like they've got the so one thing I
591
00:27:19.880 --> 00:27:22.920
like about Warno it kind of started with Steel Division
592
00:27:23.000 --> 00:27:24.759
two where they said, like, we're going to do this
593
00:27:24.839 --> 00:27:28.359
grand sort of dynamic campaign and it wasn't. It wasn't
594
00:27:28.480 --> 00:27:31.079
terribly compelling in Steel Division two. I think because of
595
00:27:31.079 --> 00:27:34.680
the setting it wasn't. Begration is not Operation Begration in
596
00:27:34.720 --> 00:27:36.519
the Eastern Front World War two is not the most
597
00:27:36.559 --> 00:27:39.440
balanced campaign, So from a gameplay point of view, it
598
00:27:39.519 --> 00:27:42.119
was not maybe the most interesting when you have a
599
00:27:42.240 --> 00:27:46.240
myriad of police battalions going up against armored regiments and
600
00:27:46.279 --> 00:27:48.160
stuff like that. But I think one of the things
601
00:27:48.160 --> 00:27:51.160
I really liked about Warno's sort of dynamic campaign is
602
00:27:51.160 --> 00:27:53.359
they give you this big map, this like General Mode
603
00:27:53.440 --> 00:27:55.319
or whatever. They give you this big map with all
604
00:27:55.359 --> 00:27:57.279
these units on it, you know, and you have to
605
00:27:57.319 --> 00:28:00.480
fight across the segment of Germany or whatever, and you know,
606
00:28:00.519 --> 00:28:02.359
as the Soviets are trying to break out or as
607
00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:04.680
the Allies are trying to hold them or counter attack
608
00:28:04.799 --> 00:28:07.200
or whatever. Like. I think that element of the campaign
609
00:28:07.240 --> 00:28:10.000
is really interesting. I don't know that it holds up,
610
00:28:10.039 --> 00:28:12.079
but I rarely play it long enough to have it
611
00:28:12.119 --> 00:28:14.640
break down, but being able to like rush regiments to
612
00:28:14.680 --> 00:28:17.000
different spots on the map and then for those units
613
00:28:17.039 --> 00:28:19.960
to fight against other units, and then the casualties carry
614
00:28:19.960 --> 00:28:22.400
over so that you know now they're weaker next time
615
00:28:22.440 --> 00:28:24.680
they fight. To me that you know, I play that
616
00:28:24.720 --> 00:28:27.519
and I am The internal monologue in me is like
617
00:28:27.559 --> 00:28:31.400
I'm playing you know, Red Storm Rising almost like the
618
00:28:31.440 --> 00:28:33.960
game right, like you kind of see in your head
619
00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:37.400
visions of some of those scenes in that book. The
620
00:28:37.880 --> 00:28:42.079
Broken Arrow campaign, believe, is strictly linear, like they sort
621
00:28:42.079 --> 00:28:44.759
of a bifurcated campaign where they've got like a US
622
00:28:44.880 --> 00:28:47.440
campaign and then a Russian campaign, but it's kind of
623
00:28:47.480 --> 00:28:50.319
told from the same like menu system, which is a
624
00:28:50.319 --> 00:28:52.440
little weird. It's almost like you're playing both sides of
625
00:28:52.480 --> 00:28:54.839
the of the story at the same time. That's kind
626
00:28:54.839 --> 00:28:56.759
of cool. Actually, yeah, I don't have it. I'm not
627
00:28:56.880 --> 00:28:58.400
when I say weird. It's just I guess what I
628
00:28:58.400 --> 00:28:59.119
mean is different.
629
00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:01.720
But what means by that is just that you can
630
00:29:02.119 --> 00:29:05.200
the mission select is a map you click on, like
631
00:29:05.279 --> 00:29:07.400
the little points are the different places in Europe where
632
00:29:07.400 --> 00:29:09.279
you're going to fight. That battle, and both the Russian
633
00:29:09.359 --> 00:29:12.799
and the American campaigns have their points which expand and
634
00:29:12.839 --> 00:29:15.759
open as you beat the previous missions. They're both popping
635
00:29:15.839 --> 00:29:19.279
up on the same map exactly. It's played sequentially for
636
00:29:19.279 --> 00:29:22.680
the Russians and it's played sequentially for the Americans, but
637
00:29:22.759 --> 00:29:24.000
you can see both the same time.
638
00:29:24.680 --> 00:29:27.200
Are are all the missions taking place at around the
639
00:29:27.240 --> 00:29:30.519
same time, Yes, like the American and the Russian mission.
640
00:29:30.680 --> 00:29:32.599
Yeah, you can tell it's in phases, right, Like you
641
00:29:32.599 --> 00:29:35.000
can tell that these two missions for the Americans, like
642
00:29:35.000 --> 00:29:38.799
the two tutorials correspond to the two tutorials for the Russians,
643
00:29:38.880 --> 00:29:41.640
and then after that happens both advance and you see
644
00:29:41.680 --> 00:29:44.319
that the Americans are doing something which is countering what
645
00:29:44.359 --> 00:29:46.319
the Russians are doing at the same time. So yeah,
646
00:29:46.319 --> 00:29:47.160
it's pretty cool like that.
647
00:29:47.240 --> 00:29:49.119
It almost reminds me a little bit of how the
648
00:29:49.160 --> 00:29:52.480
menu system works on It's not you don't play both sides,
649
00:29:52.519 --> 00:29:55.039
but in Unity of Command to you have these like
650
00:29:55.240 --> 00:29:57.599
chunks of the campaign that open up, and you might
651
00:29:57.599 --> 00:29:59.160
be able to play like a Battle in the North
652
00:29:59.200 --> 00:30:01.359
for a battle in the side, but like then you
653
00:30:01.400 --> 00:30:04.839
can't go beyond like one or two missions down that timeline.
654
00:30:04.960 --> 00:30:07.400
Until you move to the next phase of the campaign,
655
00:30:07.480 --> 00:30:09.880
which is is kind of I think feels similar to this.
656
00:30:10.240 --> 00:30:12.720
I think the thing that turdly not the most. Maybe
657
00:30:12.920 --> 00:30:16.359
I don't. I'm not saying the voice acting was bad,
658
00:30:16.880 --> 00:30:20.359
but the voice characters, like the characters in the campaign
659
00:30:20.440 --> 00:30:24.400
are so okay. The American general is just, yeah, he's cringe.
660
00:30:24.480 --> 00:30:27.519
He acts like he's ourly army and he's like supposed
661
00:30:27.519 --> 00:30:30.319
to be a general overseeing a multinational force. It's just
662
00:30:30.400 --> 00:30:33.799
he's kind of comical in his in his characterization. Or
663
00:30:34.039 --> 00:30:36.519
the Russians, like there's a there's a Russian sort of
664
00:30:36.559 --> 00:30:39.440
female character and there's like her superior and it's just
665
00:30:39.480 --> 00:30:44.359
like this very stereotypically obnoxious, creepy old man, you know,
666
00:30:45.079 --> 00:30:48.480
slick you know, slicky young woman and like almost straight
667
00:30:48.480 --> 00:30:51.000
out of like half a Cold War fiction. That just
668
00:30:51.240 --> 00:30:53.720
kind of turned me off from just the writing of
669
00:30:53.799 --> 00:30:56.279
these of these of who you're supposed to be interacting
670
00:30:56.319 --> 00:30:58.240
with and sort of the briefings and everything like that
671
00:30:58.359 --> 00:31:01.400
just was I think comically bad. The missions were interesting,
672
00:31:01.960 --> 00:31:05.799
The actual gameplay was fine, I think hard but fine.
673
00:31:06.160 --> 00:31:08.480
I only am like four missions in, so I won't
674
00:31:08.519 --> 00:31:10.839
pretend to know all the detail of it. But I
675
00:31:10.839 --> 00:31:12.559
think that was just something that kind of made me
676
00:31:12.640 --> 00:31:14.720
kind of cringe a few times as I was trying
677
00:31:14.720 --> 00:31:16.480
to trying to make my way through, because also like
678
00:31:16.519 --> 00:31:19.640
there's really long briefings and cut scenes between all this
679
00:31:19.839 --> 00:31:23.079
too that maybe maybe too long, you know, between missions.
680
00:31:23.119 --> 00:31:25.000
And then also just the lack of the save game
681
00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:28.920
mid battle, because the battles get progressively larger and more complex.
682
00:31:28.960 --> 00:31:31.279
Even the tutorial to not have like the ability to
683
00:31:31.359 --> 00:31:33.440
save in the middle middle of it is kind of
684
00:31:33.880 --> 00:31:35.960
it's a long time to commit to something that you
685
00:31:36.000 --> 00:31:39.720
don't necessarily want us play in one sitting, although at
686
00:31:39.759 --> 00:31:41.839
least in the tutorial, I think you can skip that.
687
00:31:41.880 --> 00:31:43.960
You can skip ahead if you want to the end
688
00:31:43.960 --> 00:31:44.640
of the missions.
689
00:31:44.759 --> 00:31:46.839
I want to say that I think that the difference
690
00:31:46.880 --> 00:31:51.160
between Broken Arrow and the wargame series is exactly kind
691
00:31:51.200 --> 00:31:53.480
of what you were saying, this linear structure. It's very
692
00:31:53.559 --> 00:31:58.240
narrative driven. I played the Warno version, the Grand campaign stuff.
693
00:31:58.240 --> 00:32:02.720
I also played the wargame Red Drag One and it
694
00:32:02.720 --> 00:32:05.680
it was not satisfying. I felt like it was just
695
00:32:06.079 --> 00:32:08.519
like a little snippet of what you would do in
696
00:32:08.559 --> 00:32:11.359
a normal battle. It was kind of very samey, but
697
00:32:12.079 --> 00:32:17.599
objective based and narrative driven missions in Broken Arrow. Look
698
00:32:17.599 --> 00:32:19.559
at it. I mean, I'm not saying I should speak
699
00:32:19.599 --> 00:32:23.519
for everyone. I found that the repetitive nature of Warno.
700
00:32:24.599 --> 00:32:26.680
I found Warno to have a repetitive nature, and I
701
00:32:26.680 --> 00:32:30.279
find this one to be much more interesting, especially when
702
00:32:30.319 --> 00:32:33.480
you have objectives, like, Okay, there's one mission where you
703
00:32:33.559 --> 00:32:36.400
go and capture an HQ where the Green Berets are
704
00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:39.720
there and they're actually looking for this Russian governor guy,
705
00:32:39.880 --> 00:32:42.559
and then you hold that while they're actually going through
706
00:32:42.599 --> 00:32:44.720
a tunnel system, and then they appear in different other
707
00:32:44.759 --> 00:32:46.200
places on the map and then you have to go
708
00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:49.480
and like rescue them. And that's like, to me, that's
709
00:32:49.640 --> 00:32:53.599
really cool, because I mean I can buy into that gameplay,
710
00:32:53.839 --> 00:32:57.039
I can buy into that narrative. But the Warno version
711
00:32:57.160 --> 00:32:59.240
was just like here, take your troops and fight a
712
00:32:59.279 --> 00:33:01.799
normal fight over here, and then, oh, by the way,
713
00:33:01.880 --> 00:33:04.119
go and take whatever troops you want and fight that
714
00:33:04.359 --> 00:33:07.079
on this one and all it did was basically restrict
715
00:33:07.079 --> 00:33:09.400
the units you had to fight a normal map, and
716
00:33:09.440 --> 00:33:12.440
that was not interesting to me. I think the Warno campaign,
717
00:33:12.759 --> 00:33:15.359
you are kind of telling your own story based on
718
00:33:15.440 --> 00:33:18.319
what's happening on the bigger map, and in that sense
719
00:33:18.359 --> 00:33:21.160
it sort of make your own fun. I think Broken Arrow,
720
00:33:21.240 --> 00:33:25.200
to your point, is more well scripted, so there's maybe
721
00:33:25.519 --> 00:33:29.200
more interesting stories to tell from a what is the
722
00:33:29.279 --> 00:33:33.000
game explicitly telling you, although I do wonder about replayability
723
00:33:33.039 --> 00:33:35.000
there because you're not going to get a new story.
724
00:33:35.200 --> 00:33:37.720
You know, we're in Warno. The map can unfold differently
725
00:33:37.880 --> 00:33:40.039
on the grand map and sort of you can tell
726
00:33:40.079 --> 00:33:42.799
a different story based on but where units are pushing
727
00:33:42.799 --> 00:33:45.160
in the cities that battles are being fought around, whereas
728
00:33:45.240 --> 00:33:47.039
like Broken Arrow is going to be the same exact
729
00:33:47.039 --> 00:33:49.000
story every time. It might be better, but it is
730
00:33:49.039 --> 00:33:50.759
going to be the same exact story every time.
731
00:33:50.839 --> 00:33:53.039
Can't because they do it they have different like it's
732
00:33:53.119 --> 00:33:56.279
the Collectamol achievements type stuff. They have different achievements, same
733
00:33:56.359 --> 00:33:58.160
kind of way StarCraft does. And a lot of games
734
00:33:58.200 --> 00:34:00.440
do you can replay and there's a little hidden goodies
735
00:34:00.480 --> 00:34:02.680
like did you find the SU fifty seven on the
736
00:34:02.720 --> 00:34:05.440
airplane map? I didn't, Actually I did, but I didn't
737
00:34:05.480 --> 00:34:07.119
capture it in time. So yeah, there's a little things
738
00:34:07.160 --> 00:34:09.280
like that. But no, I think that Warno is boring.
739
00:34:09.320 --> 00:34:12.320
The first time around. That's my problem with it. I
740
00:34:12.360 --> 00:34:14.280
did not enjoy it even the first time. I stopped
741
00:34:14.280 --> 00:34:16.840
after like two hours on the Grand Campaign because it's
742
00:34:16.920 --> 00:34:19.719
just I would rather play co op for SAI and
743
00:34:19.800 --> 00:34:21.880
set up my map and have all my units available
744
00:34:21.880 --> 00:34:24.239
to me, like I can construct my own deck. We
745
00:34:24.280 --> 00:34:26.360
talked about deck building. We should probably talk more about
746
00:34:26.400 --> 00:34:29.360
that too, but like I like constructing my own deck.
747
00:34:29.400 --> 00:34:32.119
The Grand campaign was basically, oh, here's a small like,
748
00:34:32.199 --> 00:34:34.719
here's like ten units you can use for this entire map.
749
00:34:34.840 --> 00:34:36.280
It's very I don't know that's.
750
00:34:36.159 --> 00:34:38.559
I don't think it was that small, but I generally
751
00:34:39.119 --> 00:34:41.320
it was bad the broad strokes of what you're saying. Yes,
752
00:34:41.559 --> 00:34:43.719
although if I was if I was a narrative you know,
753
00:34:43.719 --> 00:34:45.440
if I was Wolfpack and I was going to create
754
00:34:45.440 --> 00:34:48.000
a narrative story around the gameplay, I think there's more.
755
00:34:48.239 --> 00:34:49.760
But you would do that with scenarios, not through the
756
00:34:49.760 --> 00:34:52.519
Warno campaign, would you. I mean, the Warno campaign is
757
00:34:52.559 --> 00:34:54.679
very restrictive, is what I'm saying. I think it's restrictive
758
00:34:54.719 --> 00:34:57.639
and it's repetitive. Okay, I've already said it already, but
759
00:34:57.920 --> 00:34:59.679
that's my thoughts. I really don't think the warn O
760
00:34:59.760 --> 00:35:02.639
camp is like compelling, and I think you can't even
761
00:35:02.679 --> 00:35:04.639
finish one version. I mean, did you finish it? Did
762
00:35:04.639 --> 00:35:05.920
you feel compelled to keep going?
763
00:35:06.119 --> 00:35:08.840
Not because it's boring, but just because it's a I
764
00:35:08.840 --> 00:35:11.599
think it's more of a grind, Like, yeah, grind exactly,
765
00:35:11.679 --> 00:35:13.920
I think. And that's the problem with like the Steel
766
00:35:13.960 --> 00:35:15.800
Division stuff too, as you get into a little bit
767
00:35:15.840 --> 00:35:17.440
of whack a mole where it's like, now there's all
768
00:35:17.440 --> 00:35:20.039
these little units you're racing around trying to sort of
769
00:35:20.199 --> 00:35:26.360
snuff out. But anyway, like broad strokes, yes, I agree
770
00:35:26.400 --> 00:35:29.280
with agree with what you're saying. I might quibble on
771
00:35:29.320 --> 00:35:32.199
the margins, but who cares. Yeah, so that's the campaign.
772
00:35:32.320 --> 00:35:33.920
Sorry, one last little thing just I didn't want to
773
00:35:33.920 --> 00:35:35.800
say to me. The campaign right now is the highlight
774
00:35:35.840 --> 00:35:37.960
of the game. It's I really liked it.
775
00:35:38.039 --> 00:35:41.079
Okay, I know Finish played a whole lot of the
776
00:35:41.239 --> 00:35:45.119
first Steel Division. How does that system compare to anything
777
00:35:45.760 --> 00:35:47.760
they've described or you've played since.
778
00:35:47.559 --> 00:35:51.079
Steal Division one? I think the standout feature, besides obviously
779
00:35:51.159 --> 00:35:55.079
the World War two setting, is that Steel Division one
780
00:35:55.280 --> 00:35:58.920
had the phase systems for units replenishment. So you had
781
00:35:58.920 --> 00:36:01.159
phase one, you had at a number of points, So
782
00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:03.920
it was kind of like set up that your first
783
00:36:03.960 --> 00:36:07.800
phase should be lighter units, more recon units, and then
784
00:36:07.880 --> 00:36:10.519
phase two was kind of some of the heavier units,
785
00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:13.760
and then phase three is kind of this like, this
786
00:36:13.840 --> 00:36:15.639
is where your main battle tanks are coming in, this
787
00:36:15.719 --> 00:36:18.280
is where your tiger tanks, your heavy tanks are moving
788
00:36:18.280 --> 00:36:21.079
onto the battlefield. And I don't really think any other
789
00:36:21.480 --> 00:36:25.639
games have replicated that. I think it was extremely unpopular
790
00:36:26.239 --> 00:36:31.199
because it was unpopular by the people who played Steel
791
00:36:31.239 --> 00:36:35.199
Division one and then had wargame Red Dragon veterans, and
792
00:36:35.239 --> 00:36:37.719
they I think they complained so much that that's why
793
00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:40.880
it never came back, because Steel Division two didn't even
794
00:36:40.920 --> 00:36:43.880
have that. One of my things like knocks against Eugene
795
00:36:44.039 --> 00:36:48.199
is that they I feel like they don't innovate because
796
00:36:48.800 --> 00:36:51.519
the wargame Red Dragon community just gets pissed off. I
797
00:36:51.519 --> 00:36:54.199
feel like the games that we get from them are
798
00:36:54.280 --> 00:36:56.840
just so similar, they're so safe. They're putting out a
799
00:36:56.880 --> 00:36:57.599
safe product.
800
00:36:57.639 --> 00:36:59.760
I don't think that's always been true of you, Jen.
801
00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:02.000
I definitely think that's where they're at now. Or it's
802
00:37:02.000 --> 00:37:04.039
like to keep the boat afloat, We've got to keep
803
00:37:04.079 --> 00:37:06.880
this core audience appeased and to do that, we've got
804
00:37:06.880 --> 00:37:09.000
to keep making the same game over and over again.
805
00:37:09.159 --> 00:37:11.039
It made like, what is it They're on their fourth
806
00:37:11.119 --> 00:37:13.000
Cold War RTS game.
807
00:37:13.079 --> 00:37:15.239
Yeah, But even so, like think about I don't know,
808
00:37:15.320 --> 00:37:17.760
did any of you play Ruse? I tried? Yeah, what
809
00:37:18.280 --> 00:37:20.840
even is that? It's a game by Eugene Systems way
810
00:37:20.880 --> 00:37:23.320
back in the day. I think it was as their original, right,
811
00:37:23.360 --> 00:37:25.800
I don't know. I thought maybe Wargame came out first
812
00:37:25.920 --> 00:37:28.039
and then that was the sequel, But I could be wrong,
813
00:37:28.119 --> 00:37:30.239
but I remember like that game had a very unique
814
00:37:30.519 --> 00:37:35.360
concept where there was this intelligence side of things where
815
00:37:35.400 --> 00:37:38.519
you had like based on there was like almost like
816
00:37:38.639 --> 00:37:43.119
sigand that would give you information about radio chatter or
817
00:37:43.119 --> 00:37:46.199
information happening on the map. That was almost like this
818
00:37:46.320 --> 00:37:49.480
intelligence gathering within the map that played a role. I
819
00:37:49.480 --> 00:37:51.599
didn't play it a ton, and it's been years, so
820
00:37:51.639 --> 00:37:53.599
I don't want to go back into like try and
821
00:37:53.679 --> 00:37:57.320
describe in detail how it worked, but the general concept
822
00:37:57.519 --> 00:38:00.840
was to uncover things you couldn't physically see. There was
823
00:38:00.880 --> 00:38:03.599
this almost like radio chatter side of things that would
824
00:38:03.679 --> 00:38:07.320
kind of help reveal what your enemy was trying to do.
825
00:38:07.480 --> 00:38:09.320
And I think there was ways you could also like
826
00:38:09.400 --> 00:38:12.599
feed false information. I think that's where the name Ruse
827
00:38:12.679 --> 00:38:13.239
comes from.
828
00:38:13.360 --> 00:38:17.079
Yeah, you would set you would drop paratroopers or whatever,
829
00:38:17.119 --> 00:38:18.599
and the enemy would see them on the map, but
830
00:38:18.639 --> 00:38:21.320
it would be fake, but they would see them as real. Okay,
831
00:38:21.360 --> 00:38:22.480
that's actually pretty cool.
832
00:38:22.679 --> 00:38:25.280
It was very innovative, right, Like that's not something they
833
00:38:25.280 --> 00:38:28.000
don't do that anymore. And I think Ruse it had
834
00:38:28.000 --> 00:38:30.320
a major publisher. Was it Activision or was it I
835
00:38:30.320 --> 00:38:32.039
can't remember who, but it was like I mean, it
836
00:38:32.079 --> 00:38:34.760
was like on console as well. It had like a
837
00:38:34.880 --> 00:38:38.960
three D like campaign like that had like you know,
838
00:38:39.119 --> 00:38:42.280
animated characters talking through. It was a very high production
839
00:38:42.440 --> 00:38:44.719
value game for like what we you know this this
840
00:38:44.760 --> 00:38:48.679
sort of genre. I think it failed. I'm guessing it failed.
841
00:38:48.960 --> 00:38:50.800
No, well that's true.
842
00:38:51.039 --> 00:38:53.280
I guess at least they didn't. They didn't stay with
843
00:38:53.320 --> 00:38:56.039
the publisher they don't, like Activision doesn't publish them anymore.
844
00:38:56.079 --> 00:38:56.800
And it was one of.
845
00:38:56.800 --> 00:38:59.920
Those games that became successful after it had already gone
846
00:38:59.880 --> 00:39:02.519
to market and kind of like faded, but people realize
847
00:39:02.559 --> 00:39:04.800
it's brilliance like years later. I guess it's like one
848
00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:07.280
of those sleeper movies that people suddenly realized, oh, this
849
00:39:07.320 --> 00:39:08.119
is actually really good.
850
00:39:08.199 --> 00:39:10.559
Yeah, Like critically, I think it was well regarded by
851
00:39:10.559 --> 00:39:13.519
a lot of people who I respect, right I financially
852
00:39:13.599 --> 00:39:16.039
I assume it was not. It was not a bonanza
853
00:39:16.079 --> 00:39:19.119
exactly out of curiosity. I mean, how many of those mechanics,
854
00:39:19.360 --> 00:39:23.119
how well do those mesh with a competitive multiplayer crowd?
855
00:39:23.280 --> 00:39:26.440
But I think that was before they became captured by
856
00:39:26.440 --> 00:39:29.199
the competitive multiplayer crowd, you know. I think that was
857
00:39:29.239 --> 00:39:32.639
when they were focused on making an RTS with largely
858
00:39:32.760 --> 00:39:35.360
single player elements. I don't remember if there was multiplayer
859
00:39:35.440 --> 00:39:37.239
or not, but like I said, it was on console too.
860
00:39:37.360 --> 00:39:41.480
I played it on PlayStation three. Question mark. It's just
861
00:39:41.480 --> 00:39:42.920
one of those games I hear come up a lot,
862
00:39:43.000 --> 00:39:45.159
and I would say that was an example of someone
863
00:39:45.199 --> 00:39:48.320
doing a lot of really innovative things, and even like wargame,
864
00:39:48.360 --> 00:39:50.239
I think when it first came out was a pretty
865
00:39:50.239 --> 00:39:53.239
innovative approach and it was very you know successful. It
866
00:39:53.239 --> 00:39:56.920
built this large multiplayer community around it, and obviously a
867
00:39:56.920 --> 00:39:59.159
lot of people continue to try and copy it. So
868
00:39:59.280 --> 00:40:01.840
like they did some thing that resonated with people. But
869
00:40:01.920 --> 00:40:04.079
now I think that you know, now they've kind of
870
00:40:04.119 --> 00:40:06.760
they tried to maybe break away from the Cold War
871
00:40:06.760 --> 00:40:08.840
a little bit with the Steel Division games getting back
872
00:40:08.880 --> 00:40:12.719
to World War Two. I think their general campaign mode
873
00:40:12.760 --> 00:40:14.760
was an attempt to innovate a bit with that like
874
00:40:14.960 --> 00:40:17.440
big map of like units moving around on it and
875
00:40:17.559 --> 00:40:20.639
colliding like that was definitely different than what happened in
876
00:40:20.719 --> 00:40:23.079
Steel Division one, So like that was an attempt I
877
00:40:23.079 --> 00:40:25.199
think to be a little bit different as well, like
878
00:40:25.280 --> 00:40:25.880
I think they.
879
00:40:25.760 --> 00:40:28.079
Do can I also mention about Steel Division one. They
880
00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:30.039
had the frontline system in that, which was new, and
881
00:40:30.320 --> 00:40:32.760
I actually thought it played really well into the ABC
882
00:40:33.039 --> 00:40:35.679
phace thing that Finn was talking about, because you like
883
00:40:35.719 --> 00:40:38.079
your recon units weren't just there to scout things out.
884
00:40:38.079 --> 00:40:39.960
They were actually pushing the front line, and the front
885
00:40:39.960 --> 00:40:41.880
line is how you It was the way you got
886
00:40:41.920 --> 00:40:45.280
your points right. It wasn't about taking specific objectives. They
887
00:40:45.280 --> 00:40:47.239
actually made it frontline based r and I think they
888
00:40:47.320 --> 00:40:49.880
also went back on that for Steel Division two or
889
00:40:49.920 --> 00:40:51.360
did they keep it in and I can't remember.
890
00:40:51.519 --> 00:40:53.199
I think they got rid of it. I feel like
891
00:40:53.239 --> 00:40:56.519
I generally liked it, and I remember seeing people complaining
892
00:40:56.840 --> 00:40:59.360
because it's like, oh, I want to fight over points
893
00:40:59.360 --> 00:41:02.480
on the map. I was just I remember thinking, like
894
00:41:02.760 --> 00:41:04.679
anything can be a point on the map that you
895
00:41:04.719 --> 00:41:07.599
have to fight over, you know, the whole map is open.
896
00:41:07.920 --> 00:41:11.039
I feel like when I play we played Borno. I
897
00:41:11.039 --> 00:41:13.400
played Borno today and we played Broken Arrow to and
898
00:41:13.440 --> 00:41:15.239
I feel like so much of the map is not
899
00:41:15.280 --> 00:41:15.960
being fought over.
900
00:41:16.079 --> 00:41:18.159
Yeah, it's just the little boxes that you.
901
00:41:18.519 --> 00:41:20.719
You're fighting over a third of the map. And I
902
00:41:20.719 --> 00:41:23.199
felt like steal the vision opened up the full map.
903
00:41:23.000 --> 00:41:24.199
With the front line system.
904
00:41:24.519 --> 00:41:26.519
It wasn't I don't know if it was perfect, but
905
00:41:26.800 --> 00:41:28.960
I thought it was a good step in the right
906
00:41:29.000 --> 00:41:32.519
direction to make a full, like a full kind of
907
00:41:33.199 --> 00:41:34.119
map usage.
908
00:41:34.360 --> 00:41:36.280
And I also think and it was just different too.
909
00:41:36.400 --> 00:41:38.920
It is different, and I do think that like you
910
00:41:38.920 --> 00:41:41.960
think about historically, you think about World War Two having
911
00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:43.960
a like a big front line and stuff like that,
912
00:41:44.320 --> 00:41:46.400
it felt a little bit more realistic, even though it's
913
00:41:46.480 --> 00:41:48.960
kind of this arcade, you know, abstracted. You have a
914
00:41:49.000 --> 00:41:51.400
line on the map, et cetera. You did kind of
915
00:41:51.440 --> 00:41:55.280
have a front line. And when I played Broken Arrow
916
00:41:55.320 --> 00:41:57.559
or Warno and stuff like that, you do have a
917
00:41:57.559 --> 00:42:00.199
lot of units clumped up in a singular area and
918
00:42:00.239 --> 00:42:01.840
the rest of the map is kind of ignored.
919
00:42:01.920 --> 00:42:03.639
No, I was just gonna say, I haven't played the
920
00:42:03.719 --> 00:42:05.800
games with the front lines, But I feel like with
921
00:42:05.920 --> 00:42:09.800
that sort of mechanic, the points that you would be
922
00:42:09.800 --> 00:42:12.639
fighting over, like a town or a village or whatever,
923
00:42:12.840 --> 00:42:15.960
would just happen organically exactly if there would be contested
924
00:42:16.239 --> 00:42:18.719
you know, trench lines or whatever, that would be at
925
00:42:18.719 --> 00:42:21.920
your point ABC or D traditionally.
926
00:42:21.440 --> 00:42:24.079
Yes, but yeah, but that's what happened. But I like
927
00:42:24.119 --> 00:42:26.119
both systems. I think they each have their place. But
928
00:42:26.519 --> 00:42:29.320
you can see the counterpoint to having a generic front
929
00:42:29.320 --> 00:42:33.400
line was if somebody has like all these strategically important
930
00:42:33.400 --> 00:42:36.719
objectives and somebody else is controlling like a forest, there
931
00:42:36.760 --> 00:42:39.000
should be a little bit more reward. Maybe they needed
932
00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:42.360
to have like a not completely evenly holding this territory
933
00:42:42.400 --> 00:42:44.000
that if this is part of your front lines, it's
934
00:42:44.079 --> 00:42:46.199
worth a little more than holding like forests. But that
935
00:42:46.360 --> 00:42:48.480
wasn't the case, right, If you held this empty field,
936
00:42:48.480 --> 00:42:50.519
it was the same as holding this city. That's where
937
00:42:50.559 --> 00:42:51.559
people were complaining about it.
938
00:42:51.599 --> 00:42:53.800
Yeah, it could have been interesting to have a hybrid
939
00:42:53.920 --> 00:42:57.400
of you have the front line and conquering more territory
940
00:42:57.440 --> 00:42:59.639
gives you more of the points, but then you also
941
00:42:59.639 --> 00:43:02.199
a fight over fixed points on the map, you know,
942
00:43:02.280 --> 00:43:04.360
point A. Yeah, and it's in the town. But then
943
00:43:04.519 --> 00:43:07.039
when you're flanking, you're making a little flanking maneuver or whatever,
944
00:43:07.119 --> 00:43:10.199
you're capturing frontline territory could have been interesting.
945
00:43:09.840 --> 00:43:12.800
And like what happens if you happen to completely encircle
946
00:43:13.440 --> 00:43:15.719
one of those points, you know, I mean, you could
947
00:43:15.760 --> 00:43:18.400
have mechanics with that. I'm surprised no one's done a
948
00:43:18.480 --> 00:43:20.679
hybrid system now that we're talking about it. I'm sure
949
00:43:20.719 --> 00:43:23.320
there's issues that we haven't thought of, but well, there's
950
00:43:23.360 --> 00:43:25.599
a big issue, right The first and foremost is when
951
00:43:25.639 --> 00:43:28.360
you're conquering territory, it's revealed on the map, so there's
952
00:43:28.400 --> 00:43:29.639
no such thing as a sneak attack.
953
00:43:29.679 --> 00:43:32.039
Now that's not entirely true. There are units like recon
954
00:43:32.119 --> 00:43:34.800
units that don't capture territory, or maybe you can turn
955
00:43:34.840 --> 00:43:37.000
it off. I don't remember exactly, but I just remember
956
00:43:37.039 --> 00:43:40.519
that a lot of the your unit's movement was spoiled
957
00:43:40.519 --> 00:43:42.519
by the fact that, yes, you're suddenly getting me is
958
00:43:42.519 --> 00:43:44.639
aware that the frontline is moving in that direction. So
959
00:43:44.719 --> 00:43:46.039
obviously you have a unit there.
960
00:43:46.119 --> 00:43:47.760
Yeah, that's true.
961
00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:49.599
I guess I don't know. We don't have to get
962
00:43:49.639 --> 00:43:51.320
a workshop system, so.
963
00:43:51.920 --> 00:43:53.840
Yeah, I think where my head is just as I
964
00:43:53.880 --> 00:43:56.400
would push back on the notion that Eugene doesn't do
965
00:43:56.519 --> 00:43:59.320
innovative stuff because I think we've talked about they've done
966
00:43:59.360 --> 00:44:01.719
a lot of differ from things. But I but I
967
00:44:01.719 --> 00:44:03.800
think where they're at at this point is I don't
968
00:44:03.800 --> 00:44:06.239
want to go too far into the company politics. But
969
00:44:06.280 --> 00:44:09.880
Eugen had a rough couple of years internally. They had
970
00:44:09.960 --> 00:44:13.800
labor issues. They had reports that they were paying developers
971
00:44:13.840 --> 00:44:19.719
like borderline, you know, impoverishment wages, like yeah, there was
972
00:44:19.760 --> 00:44:22.679
a strike. I think actually that's where the Broken Arrow
973
00:44:22.800 --> 00:44:25.000
so like we mentioned Broken Arrow being run by a
974
00:44:25.039 --> 00:44:27.760
Russian company, but I think the lead like designer is
975
00:44:27.800 --> 00:44:31.159
actually from France, right like, and he's he was with
976
00:44:31.239 --> 00:44:33.760
Eugen back in the day for for Broken Arrow, like
977
00:44:34.000 --> 00:44:35.760
that that's where he am I wrong on this.
978
00:44:36.119 --> 00:44:37.599
I don't know. I don't know if he's from Oigan.
979
00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:40.519
There's I know there's a there's a central figure from
980
00:44:40.719 --> 00:44:43.760
from on Broken Arrow that was working with Eugen back
981
00:44:43.760 --> 00:44:44.159
in the day.
982
00:44:44.239 --> 00:44:46.920
Yeah, there's one French. There's one man French guy on
983
00:44:46.960 --> 00:44:48.880
the team. So it checks out.
984
00:44:48.840 --> 00:44:51.159
He's like the lead designer or something like that that
985
00:44:51.320 --> 00:44:53.800
I don't know, you know, they they had a huge
986
00:44:54.280 --> 00:44:56.840
number of issues, and I wonder if maybe Eugene has
987
00:44:56.920 --> 00:44:59.239
just fallen back on Hey. To survive as a company,
988
00:44:59.639 --> 00:45:04.000
we need to make games that this large multiplayer community
989
00:45:04.039 --> 00:45:07.079
that we have sort of crafted will buy and like.
990
00:45:07.320 --> 00:45:09.800
And so now we're just gonna make another cold war
991
00:45:09.880 --> 00:45:13.719
game that's the exact same as the mechanics we've used
992
00:45:13.760 --> 00:45:16.119
for years now. Yeah, I think it's exactly what Finn
993
00:45:16.159 --> 00:45:19.079
was saying. It's that every time they made innovations which
994
00:45:19.119 --> 00:45:21.719
are really cool and creative, everyone just, well not everyone,
995
00:45:21.760 --> 00:45:24.599
but the vocal minority complained that they wanted it more
996
00:45:24.719 --> 00:45:27.960
like wargame. And so the perfect example of this, the
997
00:45:28.039 --> 00:45:32.000
culmination of all their innovation is warn Oh right, I
998
00:45:32.039 --> 00:45:34.320
mean this is the latest game. It was their release
999
00:45:34.360 --> 00:45:36.679
after many years of not having a game out, and
1000
00:45:37.119 --> 00:45:40.480
Warno is basically take all the war games, roll them
1001
00:45:40.559 --> 00:45:44.320
up into one entity, and that's warn O. They basically
1002
00:45:44.360 --> 00:45:47.559
just give it a great soundtrack and I definitely like
1003
00:45:47.639 --> 00:45:49.480
that soundtrack, but they basically made it like this is
1004
00:45:49.880 --> 00:45:52.480
wargame on steroids. Yeah, they took some stuff from a
1005
00:45:52.480 --> 00:45:55.880
Steel Division to be fair, like the general campaign mode
1006
00:45:55.920 --> 00:45:58.079
had not been I don't believe in any of the
1007
00:45:58.079 --> 00:46:00.559
previous war games, and that is in the so like.
1008
00:46:00.559 --> 00:46:04.519
No, no, they did have so they did have campaigns previously, right,
1009
00:46:04.559 --> 00:46:05.559
they had they.
1010
00:46:05.400 --> 00:46:08.000
Had campaigns, but not the general mode, like not that
1011
00:46:08.119 --> 00:46:12.239
big open campaign. Well yeah, fine, that's you think that's
1012
00:46:12.239 --> 00:46:15.480
a just a downgrade whatever, they should stop innovating.
1013
00:46:15.519 --> 00:46:18.280
That true, Okay, it's true.
1014
00:46:18.559 --> 00:46:21.280
But but anyway, so like it does seem like this
1015
00:46:21.559 --> 00:46:24.440
that they've become a bit captured by the multiplayer community,
1016
00:46:24.440 --> 00:46:27.599
which is interesting because you know, Regiments, which was another
1017
00:46:27.639 --> 00:46:30.199
game like this said we're gonna go and just do
1018
00:46:30.239 --> 00:46:34.679
the single player focus of this game, and you know,
1019
00:46:34.800 --> 00:46:37.760
they did not meet with a ton of success. Regiments
1020
00:46:37.840 --> 00:46:40.360
was published by Micropos. Then maybe they got maybe they
1021
00:46:40.400 --> 00:46:42.599
got their money back, but like they didn't. As far
1022
00:46:42.599 --> 00:46:46.119
as I can tell based on Steam reviews, Regiments is
1023
00:46:46.159 --> 00:46:49.760
a much smaller player base. Now maybe maybe that's fine,
1024
00:46:49.840 --> 00:46:53.079
but they have about twenty five hundred reviews on Steam
1025
00:46:53.119 --> 00:46:56.840
for Regiments, notably very positive, but but twenty five hundred,
1026
00:46:56.920 --> 00:46:59.760
whereas Broken Arrow, which has gone the multiplayer route, as
1027
00:46:59.800 --> 00:47:03.480
over fourteen thousand reviews and is mixed and some of
1028
00:47:03.480 --> 00:47:06.039
the reports have seen suggest like they've sold hundreds of
1029
00:47:06.039 --> 00:47:09.320
thousands of units already of Broken Arrow, which but.
1030
00:47:09.320 --> 00:47:11.519
Isn't that because they pegged it as a multiplayer game?
1031
00:47:11.559 --> 00:47:13.920
They came this was supposed to be the war game killer.
1032
00:47:13.920 --> 00:47:15.840
I mean, that's how Slytherin was really pitching it.
1033
00:47:15.960 --> 00:47:18.039
Yeah, yeah, no, I'm agreeing. I'm just saying that, like
1034
00:47:18.079 --> 00:47:20.400
in terms of folks, I guess like that clearly the
1035
00:47:20.400 --> 00:47:23.639
focus being multiplayer seems to drive a big chunk of
1036
00:47:23.679 --> 00:47:26.199
the sales in a way that maybe the single player doesn't.
1037
00:47:26.320 --> 00:47:29.079
I agree. I mean, unfortunately that's not me, but I
1038
00:47:29.159 --> 00:47:31.559
understand that this game is not meant to appeal for me,
1039
00:47:31.679 --> 00:47:34.679
and the way I typically have to enjoy it is
1040
00:47:34.760 --> 00:47:36.440
through co op vers AI.
1041
00:47:36.119 --> 00:47:38.239
And that is the way I enjoy this the most too.
1042
00:47:38.360 --> 00:47:40.400
Like I think co op being able to like log
1043
00:47:40.440 --> 00:47:42.239
into a game like this and play with your friends
1044
00:47:42.519 --> 00:47:44.519
is you know, it's just such a great hang out
1045
00:47:44.559 --> 00:47:46.760
with friends and play a game together on the same
1046
00:47:46.880 --> 00:47:49.679
side without too much stress, Like that's a this is
1047
00:47:49.719 --> 00:47:50.559
a great game for that.
1048
00:47:50.679 --> 00:47:52.639
Well, Warno excels of that. I would not say that
1049
00:47:52.719 --> 00:47:55.360
Broken Arrow excels at the low stress part. It's like
1050
00:47:55.599 --> 00:47:57.519
extremely stressful for me at least.
1051
00:47:57.679 --> 00:47:59.800
Why don't you talk about that. Why why don't we
1052
00:48:00.039 --> 00:48:01.119
started talking about that a bit.
1053
00:48:01.159 --> 00:48:03.239
Well, let's finish, let's finish talk about it. He just
1054
00:48:03.400 --> 00:48:06.480
helped me defeat the enemies in our most recent skirmish,
1055
00:48:06.480 --> 00:48:07.400
which was a ton of fun.
1056
00:48:07.480 --> 00:48:09.639
Well, I don't really know what to think about this.
1057
00:48:09.840 --> 00:48:13.039
I was thinking about because we were talking about innovation
1058
00:48:13.159 --> 00:48:15.920
and there's you know, I wanted to segue into two
1059
00:48:16.119 --> 00:48:18.960
things I really like about Broken Arrow that I don't
1060
00:48:18.960 --> 00:48:21.079
feel like I've seen anywhere else, and I feel like
1061
00:48:21.440 --> 00:48:25.760
this is where they've innovated. And the first one is
1062
00:48:26.159 --> 00:48:29.440
the unit kit customization where you can spend more points
1063
00:48:29.760 --> 00:48:33.880
to have like add on active protection system and upgraded
1064
00:48:33.920 --> 00:48:37.239
engine and upgraded gun. I don't remember seeing that anywhere else,
1065
00:48:37.280 --> 00:48:39.639
and I think that's a cool feature when we were
1066
00:48:39.639 --> 00:48:42.719
doing the deck building stuff. And then the second thing
1067
00:48:42.800 --> 00:48:45.159
is is kind of minor, but I did like how
1068
00:48:45.559 --> 00:48:48.039
buildings in the game you can have multiple units in
1069
00:48:48.079 --> 00:48:50.079
the building. The building has kind of like a number
1070
00:48:50.440 --> 00:48:52.280
on there, so you can have like sixty units in
1071
00:48:52.559 --> 00:48:55.079
a factory or something in a warehouse, and you can
1072
00:48:55.079 --> 00:48:57.440
go into like airplanes and ships and stuff like that.
1073
00:48:58.000 --> 00:48:59.119
I thought that was kind of cool.
1074
00:48:59.559 --> 00:49:01.360
I think to what Wolf was talking about.
1075
00:49:01.119 --> 00:49:04.320
How infantry and Broken Arrow is so squishy, and I
1076
00:49:04.360 --> 00:49:07.400
agree one hundred percent, Like you put you can put
1077
00:49:07.400 --> 00:49:08.960
a ton of units in these buildings and then just
1078
00:49:09.039 --> 00:49:11.480
kind of get wiped out really easily. Maybe that maybe
1079
00:49:11.480 --> 00:49:13.400
having a ton of units in the building is their
1080
00:49:13.440 --> 00:49:15.880
way to kind of like fix that problem. You should
1081
00:49:15.920 --> 00:49:17.840
have fixed it a different way. But anyway, I do
1082
00:49:17.960 --> 00:49:19.639
like that having you can put a ton of units
1083
00:49:19.639 --> 00:49:21.400
in a building, and I don't remember seeing that any
1084
00:49:21.400 --> 00:49:24.480
other in the other game. So innovation wise, I think
1085
00:49:24.599 --> 00:49:28.000
Broken Arrow has gone with some interesting features that I
1086
00:49:28.039 --> 00:49:28.480
do like.
1087
00:49:28.679 --> 00:49:31.119
I still kind of disagree about that infantry thing because
1088
00:49:31.159 --> 00:49:33.280
I guess that that's the way I felt at first,
1089
00:49:33.360 --> 00:49:35.760
But then I started to realize that your infantry, I
1090
00:49:35.800 --> 00:49:39.519
would prioritize infantry that has you know, anti tank weapons,
1091
00:49:40.079 --> 00:49:42.960
and you can have them just weight and ambush enemies,
1092
00:49:42.960 --> 00:49:44.800
like if you put them in the right buildings that
1093
00:49:44.880 --> 00:49:47.159
have limited line up site the opposite of what you'd
1094
00:49:47.199 --> 00:49:48.679
normally do, but you put them in kind of like
1095
00:49:48.760 --> 00:49:52.559
choke points, a little surprise ambush areas. They'll hit the tanks,
1096
00:49:52.719 --> 00:49:55.599
and I mean, even if you lose one or two infantry,
1097
00:49:55.960 --> 00:49:58.599
the points for those guys is like sixty seventy, and
1098
00:49:58.639 --> 00:50:00.679
the points for a tank is like two hundre three hundred,
1099
00:50:01.000 --> 00:50:03.000
So you can afford to lose a few infantry to
1100
00:50:03.039 --> 00:50:03.800
take out one tank.
1101
00:50:03.960 --> 00:50:06.119
Yeah, that's probably It's probably a skill issue on my
1102
00:50:06.199 --> 00:50:06.800
own tier. Right.
1103
00:50:06.840 --> 00:50:09.239
Well, I'm just gonna basically repeat what wolf had said earlier.
1104
00:50:09.320 --> 00:50:12.039
I think you have units in a building and a
1105
00:50:12.079 --> 00:50:14.880
Bradley rolls up or a BMP rolls up, and they
1106
00:50:14.880 --> 00:50:17.119
all just start getting killed. Like they're all just standing
1107
00:50:17.159 --> 00:50:19.760
at the window, you know, like they're not hanging out. Yeah,
1108
00:50:20.320 --> 00:50:22.760
are these guy hiding or something like? Come on, you know,
1109
00:50:23.440 --> 00:50:25.480
why are you getting shot at all? Getting killed? So
1110
00:50:26.079 --> 00:50:28.719
I feel like infantry and I don't know, you look
1111
00:50:28.760 --> 00:50:32.159
at some real world examples right now in Ukraine, even
1112
00:50:33.039 --> 00:50:35.079
even if you say the game has been developed in
1113
00:50:35.360 --> 00:50:37.239
twenty nineteen, you look at some of the fighting in
1114
00:50:37.320 --> 00:50:40.639
Ukraine in like whatever at twenty sixteen, it was these
1115
00:50:40.679 --> 00:50:43.960
infantry units there can hold out against you know, pretty
1116
00:50:44.039 --> 00:50:47.719
extreme odds. I don't feel like like Broken Air or
1117
00:50:47.800 --> 00:50:51.960
really a lot of RTS games are accurate in that sense.
1118
00:50:52.000 --> 00:50:52.960
I agree, And.
1119
00:50:52.880 --> 00:50:55.159
Maybe that's balancing because a multiplayer or something like that
1120
00:50:55.199 --> 00:50:56.800
for all I know, you know, I don't know why
1121
00:50:56.840 --> 00:50:59.960
they've done it this way, but we think about real.
1122
00:51:00.800 --> 00:51:03.599
Something seem real, and maybe it's the illusion of things
1123
00:51:03.599 --> 00:51:06.239
being real that makes us, you know, have fun. But
1124
00:51:06.480 --> 00:51:08.960
maybe when you nitpick, you see things that why did
1125
00:51:09.000 --> 00:51:09.320
they do.
1126
00:51:09.280 --> 00:51:10.960
It this way? I just don't like seeing my guy
1127
00:51:11.119 --> 00:51:14.000
like I deployed my guys. I you know, I'm a
1128
00:51:14.039 --> 00:51:17.679
horrible commander clearly, and then the BMP rolls up into
1129
00:51:17.840 --> 00:51:21.159
slaughters twenty men and uh in a high rise and
1130
00:51:21.239 --> 00:51:24.440
I'm like, well, not feel bad now, Well now everyone
1131
00:51:24.480 --> 00:51:27.440
here is the is TG the butcher Yeah, sends his
1132
00:51:27.519 --> 00:51:30.559
guys to his doom every single game, like I try
1133
00:51:30.559 --> 00:51:32.400
to keep my guys alive, and I think I think
1134
00:51:32.440 --> 00:51:35.039
I usually lose the No, that's not true. I always
1135
00:51:35.079 --> 00:51:36.400
lose the most to kill the most.
1136
00:51:36.679 --> 00:51:37.599
Maybe you drop a nuke.
1137
00:51:37.719 --> 00:51:41.039
I think Tartuga is saying, like, your your units seem
1138
00:51:41.119 --> 00:51:43.119
to die so quickly in a lot of these games,
1139
00:51:43.400 --> 00:51:46.000
and you're constantly replenishing, and maybe that's why there's always
1140
00:51:46.000 --> 00:51:49.480
a focus by some of these new titles about how
1141
00:51:49.519 --> 00:51:52.599
do we have unit replenishment in a different way because
1142
00:51:52.719 --> 00:51:55.519
your units aren't staying on the map. Maybe it's long
1143
00:51:55.559 --> 00:51:59.119
because maybe there's some sort of rock paper scissor system
1144
00:51:59.119 --> 00:52:02.239
where tank is checked by aircraft, aircraft is checked by
1145
00:52:02.480 --> 00:52:06.000
patriots system, et cetera, and things just constantly keep being destroyed.
1146
00:52:06.559 --> 00:52:09.519
Your front line is like just a constant replacement of units,
1147
00:52:09.559 --> 00:52:12.440
even though it's you know, relatively staying the same on
1148
00:52:12.480 --> 00:52:12.920
the map.
1149
00:52:13.239 --> 00:52:15.679
My thought on this is that the more I played,
1150
00:52:15.760 --> 00:52:19.679
the more I respect the place where the balance is currently. Like,
1151
00:52:19.760 --> 00:52:22.239
originally I was losing troops a lot, but I mean
1152
00:52:22.280 --> 00:52:25.400
I put now probably with just the single player stuff.
1153
00:52:25.719 --> 00:52:28.599
I haven't played any multiplayer, so I'm just totally inexperienced
1154
00:52:28.599 --> 00:52:30.840
with that, and so take what I say with a
1155
00:52:30.840 --> 00:52:33.519
grain of salt. It's only based on single player interactions
1156
00:52:33.519 --> 00:52:37.280
against the AI and co op, just to be clear, Yeah,
1157
00:52:37.320 --> 00:52:38.960
sure right, Yeah, a lot of co op as well,
1158
00:52:39.000 --> 00:52:42.239
But I think I've developed a lot different. First of all,
1159
00:52:42.719 --> 00:52:44.800
I would say that this game has a very steep
1160
00:52:44.840 --> 00:52:47.679
initial learning curve. A lot of things you need to learn.
1161
00:52:47.800 --> 00:52:50.159
You need to learn that double tapping you gets your
1162
00:52:50.239 --> 00:52:52.599
units out of whatever thing they're loaded up in. You
1163
00:52:52.639 --> 00:52:54.880
need to learn that infantry will sprint when you press
1164
00:52:54.920 --> 00:52:58.239
see and that will remove their suppressed or shocked attribute.
1165
00:52:58.280 --> 00:53:00.960
These things are critical to like it's the make it
1166
00:53:01.039 --> 00:53:03.840
or break it types, little hot keys that you just
1167
00:53:03.920 --> 00:53:06.039
have to know about, and just the development of all
1168
00:53:06.079 --> 00:53:07.920
those little things that I didn't think that they were
1169
00:53:07.960 --> 00:53:10.679
critical in Warno. I still think that Warno is a
1170
00:53:10.679 --> 00:53:13.079
lot easier to get into, and I think it's it
1171
00:53:13.079 --> 00:53:16.079
could be better for a more casual arcade experience. It's
1172
00:53:16.119 --> 00:53:18.760
probably more enjoyable if you want a lower stressed thing.
1173
00:53:18.840 --> 00:53:21.000
But I find that the more I play this game,
1174
00:53:21.119 --> 00:53:23.239
I see how if you put your like it's what
1175
00:53:23.320 --> 00:53:25.559
I was just saying, how if you can find you know,
1176
00:53:25.599 --> 00:53:28.159
you hold all to get where the vision is, like
1177
00:53:28.239 --> 00:53:30.800
what is the vision from the particular point your mouse
1178
00:53:30.880 --> 00:53:32.440
is at on the map, and you look for a
1179
00:53:32.480 --> 00:53:35.559
building which is perfect for like my recon unit. I
1180
00:53:35.599 --> 00:53:38.039
want that in a building. I don't want them firing.
1181
00:53:38.079 --> 00:53:40.679
I turn off there, I have them return fire only,
1182
00:53:40.840 --> 00:53:42.880
and then I have them camp in a really good
1183
00:53:42.920 --> 00:53:46.679
observation building versus like my AT unit. I'll put them
1184
00:53:46.679 --> 00:53:48.760
in a building which is actually protected, it's kind of
1185
00:53:48.800 --> 00:53:51.719
obscured by other buildings, so that the tank is really
1186
00:53:51.760 --> 00:53:54.719
close to penetration. For these things, goes up with the
1187
00:53:54.800 --> 00:53:57.639
unit being the enemy unit being closer, or if it
1188
00:53:57.760 --> 00:54:00.639
grounds a corner and its side is exposed. I've learned
1189
00:54:00.639 --> 00:54:03.079
how to do those things, and I've seen them pay
1190
00:54:03.119 --> 00:54:06.519
off a lot better. So I feel like I was
1191
00:54:06.559 --> 00:54:08.719
a little bit miffed by the game at first because
1192
00:54:08.760 --> 00:54:12.119
it was so difficult but really struggling and it's painfully
1193
00:54:12.159 --> 00:54:14.239
beating my head against it. I feel like I've come
1194
00:54:14.280 --> 00:54:16.360
to respect the system the way it is. It's not
1195
00:54:16.440 --> 00:54:17.880
my way of trying to say get good.
1196
00:54:17.960 --> 00:54:20.159
No, I mean that's that's a really good way of
1197
00:54:20.199 --> 00:54:23.639
saying get good, and I get I'm I respect that actually.
1198
00:54:23.440 --> 00:54:26.079
So unfortunately none of us here is actually good. Probably Wolf,
1199
00:54:26.079 --> 00:54:28.079
you might be the best or maybe finished. You've actually
1200
00:54:28.159 --> 00:54:30.519
just saved my bacon and AI versus co op, so
1201
00:54:30.599 --> 00:54:32.960
none of us have like the high level experience. We
1202
00:54:33.000 --> 00:54:35.400
don't know what the competitive game is like. I haven't
1203
00:54:35.400 --> 00:54:37.760
even watched competitive games, so I'm not sure what the
1204
00:54:37.920 --> 00:54:38.599
what that looks like.
1205
00:54:38.679 --> 00:54:40.599
I feel like when I when I think about Warno
1206
00:54:40.960 --> 00:54:44.360
and Broken Arrow, I've found the Warno AI to be
1207
00:54:44.400 --> 00:54:47.840
a lot easier than Broken Arrow. Broken Arrows like some
1208
00:54:47.880 --> 00:54:49.960
of the multiplayers the co op games of the four
1209
00:54:49.960 --> 00:54:53.400
of us have done. Sometimes Broken Arrow seems to have
1210
00:54:53.440 --> 00:54:55.679
like the sixth sense, like you guys are getting sniped
1211
00:54:55.679 --> 00:54:57.639
by their missiles or something. At the start of the game,
1212
00:54:57.800 --> 00:54:59.679
you know or obviously the AI is going to be
1213
00:54:59.679 --> 00:55:02.000
able to can control all the units while you're only
1214
00:55:02.000 --> 00:55:05.039
looking at like two. You're running into those kind of issues,
1215
00:55:05.039 --> 00:55:07.800
and I don't know where you know where the AI
1216
00:55:07.960 --> 00:55:11.239
is nerved and buff based on these things, but I don't.
1217
00:55:11.719 --> 00:55:14.000
I don't feel like the AI is really that difficult
1218
00:55:14.840 --> 00:55:19.039
in either game, but I felt like Warno's AI was easier.
1219
00:55:19.519 --> 00:55:21.719
Oh, I can see that. I feel like the Broken
1220
00:55:21.800 --> 00:55:24.039
Arrow AI is kind of difficult. I mean I did.
1221
00:55:24.320 --> 00:55:26.440
I put it on hard one time because I was like,
1222
00:55:26.480 --> 00:55:29.599
we're a bunch of real human beings. I guess an
1223
00:55:29.599 --> 00:55:32.800
AI and the Hard AI rolled us. Yeah, we learned
1224
00:55:32.840 --> 00:55:36.360
real quick. We're actually m PCs. Yeah we again. It
1225
00:55:36.400 --> 00:55:39.039
was like our second game we were bad and uh
1226
00:55:39.280 --> 00:55:42.559
TORTIOA finished. We're carrying pretty hard. But I will say
1227
00:55:42.559 --> 00:55:45.760
that the AI does surprise me, like in how aggressive
1228
00:55:45.840 --> 00:55:48.239
the AI and Broken Arrow can be sometimes, like you'll
1229
00:55:48.320 --> 00:55:50.800
you'll start a game and maybe it's cheating, maybe it
1230
00:55:50.880 --> 00:55:53.360
knows what road you're coming up. And it's not just guessing,
1231
00:55:53.400 --> 00:55:57.199
because you could certainly guess this, but like multiple times,
1232
00:55:57.199 --> 00:55:58.920
depending on the deck you choose, the A I will
1233
00:55:58.960 --> 00:56:01.880
just drop a nuke on your in your ingress route
1234
00:56:01.920 --> 00:56:04.519
to the map and like take out a big chunk
1235
00:56:04.599 --> 00:56:07.760
of your starting units, and that really copied. By surprise,
1236
00:56:07.840 --> 00:56:10.559
the first couple times, I was they did they really
1237
00:56:10.639 --> 00:56:14.199
just spend a thousand points or whatever to like to
1238
00:56:14.280 --> 00:56:16.960
do this, But oh my god, it worked, and now
1239
00:56:16.960 --> 00:56:18.360
we're fucked for a while.
1240
00:56:18.599 --> 00:56:21.199
When I think about playing that game on hard AI,
1241
00:56:22.079 --> 00:56:24.920
I just remember it was a lot of like wave
1242
00:56:25.039 --> 00:56:28.199
tactics by the AI. I don't know if because of
1243
00:56:28.239 --> 00:56:30.880
them being hard they had more points or you know,
1244
00:56:30.920 --> 00:56:33.480
there's some buffs to their units in some way, but
1245
00:56:33.519 --> 00:56:36.239
I just remember, you know, trying to hold on to
1246
00:56:36.360 --> 00:56:38.679
certain points and then they just kept coming. It was
1247
00:56:38.760 --> 00:56:43.199
like it felt, you know, your your numbers. It felt unfair,
1248
00:56:43.840 --> 00:56:46.239
and it didn't feel like I was getting beaten because
1249
00:56:46.239 --> 00:56:48.719
of my like my skill at the game. I was
1250
00:56:48.840 --> 00:56:52.239
being beaten because you know, they're sending wave tactics of
1251
00:56:52.280 --> 00:56:53.440
tanks and infantry at me.
1252
00:56:53.719 --> 00:56:57.519
When we played together several times, we always played as
1253
00:56:57.559 --> 00:57:00.920
the Americans and we were dealing with the right doing that,
1254
00:57:01.000 --> 00:57:04.280
and you know, stereotypical Russians are going to send wave tactics.
1255
00:57:05.039 --> 00:57:09.360
Did you, guys or finish, did you experience that playing
1256
00:57:09.360 --> 00:57:11.519
as the Russians against the Americans or have you not
1257
00:57:11.599 --> 00:57:12.000
done that?
1258
00:57:12.039 --> 00:57:14.800
Did I experience that as the Russians playing against the Americans?
1259
00:57:14.840 --> 00:57:17.039
Like did the Americans use the same kind of wave
1260
00:57:17.079 --> 00:57:19.280
of tactics against you? Have you experienced that?
1261
00:57:19.559 --> 00:57:21.280
I think to some extent, because I think that's just
1262
00:57:21.320 --> 00:57:24.880
baked into the AI, and we've seen, you know, they
1263
00:57:24.920 --> 00:57:27.159
do kind of they kind of clump up in areas,
1264
00:57:27.559 --> 00:57:31.480
and I think Warno is exceptionally bad at that. The
1265
00:57:31.519 --> 00:57:34.800
game that I played today, the AI gets really bunched
1266
00:57:34.880 --> 00:57:36.880
up on the points, and I don't know if that's
1267
00:57:36.920 --> 00:57:40.199
just like an AI programming thing, and I didn't remember
1268
00:57:40.280 --> 00:57:41.840
that happening in Broken Arrow.
1269
00:57:42.360 --> 00:57:44.079
Yeah, I mean there have been a couple of times
1270
00:57:44.119 --> 00:57:45.960
where I dropped in Nuke and been shocked at the
1271
00:57:46.039 --> 00:57:48.840
number of skulls I saw come up. So there's definitely
1272
00:57:48.840 --> 00:57:51.960
times where the AI will bunch up and Broken Arrow,
1273
00:57:52.320 --> 00:57:54.760
but I think you don't always have the visibility to
1274
00:57:54.800 --> 00:57:57.760
see it either. In broken arrow I think.
1275
00:57:57.519 --> 00:57:59.280
Yeah, I think I would say, I guess they do
1276
00:57:59.360 --> 00:58:02.800
bunch up, but I think I remember seeing it more
1277
00:58:03.239 --> 00:58:04.599
prevalent in Warnow.
1278
00:58:04.800 --> 00:58:05.639
But I don't know.
1279
00:58:05.639 --> 00:58:07.239
We're probably nippicking random crap.
1280
00:58:07.360 --> 00:58:09.880
So one of the things I appreciate about broken arrows,
1281
00:58:09.880 --> 00:58:13.840
I think line of sight is pretty restrictive. I often
1282
00:58:13.920 --> 00:58:17.760
have a difficult time understanding where things are, where we
1283
00:58:17.840 --> 00:58:20.280
need to push, where there's opportunity, and I think it
1284
00:58:20.320 --> 00:58:23.280
does do a good job of like really incentivizing you
1285
00:58:23.360 --> 00:58:27.719
to use drones or other sort of recon vehicles to
1286
00:58:27.880 --> 00:58:30.280
like actually see where things are in the map. If
1287
00:58:30.320 --> 00:58:32.039
you don't do that, you are going to have a
1288
00:58:32.079 --> 00:58:35.000
real tough time playing the game, in my opinion, And
1289
00:58:35.079 --> 00:58:38.599
so that really does incentivize like recon type units that
1290
00:58:39.000 --> 00:58:41.840
give you that information. Yeah, Recon's pretty fun in the game.
1291
00:58:41.960 --> 00:58:44.920
I like using I like using artillery and all these
1292
00:58:44.960 --> 00:58:49.679
games kind of figuring out where the enemy's fixed positions
1293
00:58:49.719 --> 00:58:52.360
are and hitting them with you know, pigh mars or
1294
00:58:52.360 --> 00:58:56.519
whatever is scanders. I enjoy doing that, and maybe it's
1295
00:58:56.559 --> 00:59:00.880
just because it's slower paced than my simple brain can
1296
00:59:00.920 --> 00:59:03.719
handle it. It's nice too, because in my experience using
1297
00:59:03.840 --> 00:59:07.159
artillery and I actually survives long enough to resupply. Maybe
1298
00:59:07.159 --> 00:59:09.360
that's part of the reason I like it. Yeah, that's
1299
00:59:09.400 --> 00:59:12.639
that's definitely true. I mean I like the resupply mechanics.
1300
00:59:12.679 --> 00:59:15.920
I like bringing in cargo with like chinooks and stuff like.
1301
00:59:16.000 --> 00:59:19.519
I find that enjoyable. Yeah. Maybe I'm just a logistics
1302
00:59:19.519 --> 00:59:20.519
player at heart. You know.
1303
00:59:20.800 --> 00:59:25.039
Was it expert study logistics, amateur study tactics or something?
1304
00:59:25.599 --> 00:59:28.760
That's right. That's right, that's right, man's an expert. That's me.
1305
00:59:29.760 --> 00:59:31.199
Theame is the famous expert.
1306
00:59:32.639 --> 00:59:34.159
I really like the way air is done in this
1307
00:59:34.239 --> 00:59:36.760
game as well. It's it's better and much better, I
1308
00:59:36.800 --> 00:59:39.039
would say, than how it's done in Warno. Your eight
1309
00:59:39.039 --> 00:59:41.159
ten is on the map for a really long time,
1310
00:59:41.239 --> 00:59:44.000
making this straight for runs, and you can actually get
1311
00:59:44.000 --> 00:59:46.119
a B fifty two that sits in the back and
1312
00:59:46.199 --> 00:59:49.840
just lobs it's a cruise missiles stuff. It's so cool.
1313
00:59:50.039 --> 00:59:52.000
I just feel like it's much better developed than what
1314
00:59:52.360 --> 00:59:55.480
I saw in Warno. And maybe that's partly just because
1315
00:59:55.519 --> 00:59:57.760
they didn't have like cruise missiles and stuff like that.
1316
00:59:57.880 --> 01:00:00.480
Maybe the A tens were not as advanced back in
1317
01:00:00.519 --> 01:00:03.119
the Warno era. I mean the era that it's it's
1318
01:00:03.159 --> 01:00:05.719
playing as but I just think that the air stuff
1319
01:00:05.719 --> 01:00:07.960
has done better, and I like the Patriot missiles, and
1320
01:00:08.400 --> 01:00:11.079
then the seed that tissue was mentioning at the beginning,
1321
01:00:11.159 --> 01:00:12.039
I think agreed.
1322
01:00:12.280 --> 01:00:14.079
I think I think it ends. I think Broken Era
1323
01:00:14.159 --> 01:00:18.280
does a better job than Warno in incentivizing intelligent play
1324
01:00:18.440 --> 01:00:22.119
and thoughtful play around what units am I bringing to
1325
01:00:22.159 --> 01:00:24.239
the fight. Now I'm not a Warno expert, so maybe
1326
01:00:24.280 --> 01:00:26.679
I'm speaking out of ignorance, but it felt to me.
1327
01:00:26.880 --> 01:00:30.320
It's it has felt so far to me much more like, oh, okay,
1328
01:00:30.360 --> 01:00:33.519
that makes sense. This would counter that issue that I'm having.
1329
01:00:33.559 --> 01:00:35.320
And if I play that way, Like the first time
1330
01:00:35.320 --> 01:00:37.199
I brought said to a to a fight, I didn't
1331
01:00:37.239 --> 01:00:38.760
do it the first few times, and then I brought it,
1332
01:00:38.760 --> 01:00:41.199
I was like, wow, okay, so I can now use
1333
01:00:41.239 --> 01:00:43.880
the airspace like this is a game changer. But I've
1334
01:00:43.880 --> 01:00:45.920
got to make sure to do it. And suddenly, like
1335
01:00:46.039 --> 01:00:48.920
now the S three hundreds aren't shooting down everything of
1336
01:00:49.000 --> 01:00:51.360
mining the minute I, you know, approach the enemy, it's
1337
01:00:51.360 --> 01:00:52.719
still something you've got to be aware of. You got
1338
01:00:52.760 --> 01:00:55.639
to continually cycle in said strikes. You've got to make
1339
01:00:55.639 --> 01:00:58.639
sure you've got fighters to provide top cover for those
1340
01:00:59.079 --> 01:01:02.599
for those sixes or whatever you're using for said, to
1341
01:01:02.639 --> 01:01:04.639
make sure they don't get shot down by animey air.
1342
01:01:04.719 --> 01:01:08.679
But like it really incentivizes intelligent play in air in
1343
01:01:08.719 --> 01:01:10.800
a way that I kind of didn't really feel like
1344
01:01:10.840 --> 01:01:13.719
WARNO does. And maybe, again to your point, it's just
1345
01:01:13.760 --> 01:01:16.280
because some weapons systems are more advanced and there's more
1346
01:01:16.559 --> 01:01:20.000
variety to air units in twenty twenty five than there
1347
01:01:20.119 --> 01:01:24.039
was in nineteen eighty. But it's enjoyable. Yeah, I mean
1348
01:01:24.599 --> 01:01:27.960
maybe it's I get what you guys are saying about
1349
01:01:27.960 --> 01:01:30.440
the air stuff, and I agree when it comes to
1350
01:01:30.599 --> 01:01:34.360
the close air support, the helicopters, the A tens, the
1351
01:01:34.480 --> 01:01:37.639
frog VOTs, et cetera. But with the cruise missiles, I
1352
01:01:37.800 --> 01:01:41.280
don't like it. The game is still too the maps
1353
01:01:41.280 --> 01:01:45.679
are too small to have TU ninety fives lobbying KG
1354
01:01:45.800 --> 01:01:50.480
one oh one's at what fifty kilometers away? It's just
1355
01:01:51.159 --> 01:01:54.039
and that gets into the realism thing. And maybe I'm
1356
01:01:54.079 --> 01:01:58.000
just that platform should not be anywhere near a patriot. Yeah,
1357
01:01:58.000 --> 01:02:01.320
you're right, it shouldn't, but it's fun to see as
1358
01:02:01.599 --> 01:02:04.239
when you see an enemy cruise missile coming, especially when
1359
01:02:04.239 --> 01:02:07.360
it's oh there's only one of those. It's coming in slow,
1360
01:02:07.480 --> 01:02:11.039
it's lumb that's a nuke. Oh fuck, Like as it's
1361
01:02:11.039 --> 01:02:14.280
coming in it is cool, Like that's a fun experience
1362
01:02:14.320 --> 01:02:17.320
to have. The nukes are fun. I do like nuking.
1363
01:02:17.480 --> 01:02:20.360
My first nuke experience was my favorite. I dropped it
1364
01:02:20.440 --> 01:02:23.599
on where I was pretty confident the enemy was gonna
1365
01:02:23.599 --> 01:02:25.920
be and then a steam popped up an achievement for
1366
01:02:26.039 --> 01:02:29.039
dropping a nuke on absolutely nothing, that's right.
1367
01:02:29.039 --> 01:02:30.559
It was sending a message.
1368
01:02:30.679 --> 01:02:32.639
Yeah, yeah, exactly with this.
1369
01:02:32.679 --> 01:02:35.639
Unit kind of stuff. Warno or Not bornhum Broken Arrow
1370
01:02:36.480 --> 01:02:39.000
does seem to have like this kind of weapon range
1371
01:02:39.119 --> 01:02:41.719
NERF with a lot of things, except for some of
1372
01:02:41.760 --> 01:02:44.400
the missiles. Wasn't there a game where someone was flying
1373
01:02:44.440 --> 01:02:47.079
around with their B fifty two at the back of
1374
01:02:47.119 --> 01:02:49.880
the map just lobbing missiles. But when you think about,
1375
01:02:49.920 --> 01:02:52.920
like me, the range of your your tanks and some
1376
01:02:52.960 --> 01:02:56.000
of these other units and like the helicopter missiles and things,
1377
01:02:56.719 --> 01:02:59.519
they seem they seem NERF. They seem so short.
1378
01:02:59.559 --> 01:03:01.480
So you have this they're engaging at like just one
1379
01:03:01.519 --> 01:03:03.320
hundred meters away. It seems like a lot of.
1380
01:03:03.239 --> 01:03:06.760
This, Yeah, you have this weird this dichotomy of range distance.
1381
01:03:06.760 --> 01:03:08.199
I did find that it was frustrating.
1382
01:03:08.320 --> 01:03:09.960
I think this goes back to when we were talking
1383
01:03:09.960 --> 01:03:12.239
about realism at the beginning of the episode and how
1384
01:03:12.239 --> 01:03:15.119
everything is subservient to balance. I think a big part
1385
01:03:15.159 --> 01:03:17.119
of that is just, well, we can't have these things
1386
01:03:17.159 --> 01:03:19.159
so far off the map that you could never shoot
1387
01:03:19.199 --> 01:03:21.480
it down. So if we make the map smaller, we
1388
01:03:21.519 --> 01:03:24.039
compress it. Yes, you've got these strategic air assets that
1389
01:03:24.079 --> 01:03:26.440
everybody wants to see, but they're also like the maps
1390
01:03:26.480 --> 01:03:28.360
are small. Out of that, if you're not paying real
1391
01:03:28.400 --> 01:03:30.519
close attention to where your B fifty two is, you're
1392
01:03:30.559 --> 01:03:33.360
not one hundred and eighty kilometers out launching these things.
1393
01:03:33.440 --> 01:03:36.599
You're twenty kilometers out and you're ten seconds away from
1394
01:03:36.639 --> 01:03:39.960
getting yourself shot down because you just wandered too close
1395
01:03:40.000 --> 01:03:41.400
to an enemy sam pat or.
1396
01:03:41.280 --> 01:03:43.199
You feel like the map size is too small from
1397
01:03:43.199 --> 01:03:46.199
the perspective that you're you have to micromanage. I've gotten
1398
01:03:46.239 --> 01:03:49.320
better at this, but many, many times, might be fifty
1399
01:03:49.320 --> 01:03:52.159
two's have flown over, like right over the combat where
1400
01:03:52.159 --> 01:03:54.320
they never would want to be if they're launching cruise
1401
01:03:54.360 --> 01:03:57.239
missiles from far away right. So yeah, and what you
1402
01:03:57.320 --> 01:03:58.679
kind of paining the butt. You have to like right
1403
01:03:58.760 --> 01:04:01.000
click them back and forth at the very bottom of
1404
01:04:01.039 --> 01:04:02.920
the map like on a mini map. That's my trick
1405
01:04:02.960 --> 01:04:05.360
to it it. That is so I almost wonder if
1406
01:04:05.400 --> 01:04:08.199
it would be better if these were off map entities,
1407
01:04:08.360 --> 01:04:09.599
because that's what they should be.
1408
01:04:10.039 --> 01:04:11.960
Yeah, I would prefer it. You want to see it.
1409
01:04:12.360 --> 01:04:13.480
We solve their problem.
1410
01:04:13.480 --> 01:04:15.480
I mean, you can shoot down cruise missiles, so maybe
1411
01:04:15.480 --> 01:04:18.119
that would work. But I think part of that is folks,
1412
01:04:18.360 --> 01:04:20.320
you know, they want the counter they want all right,
1413
01:04:20.360 --> 01:04:22.239
so you've got this asset, but now it's off map
1414
01:04:22.239 --> 01:04:24.480
and I can't kill it, so you know, I think
1415
01:04:24.519 --> 01:04:27.599
I think that poses a different set of design challenges.
1416
01:04:27.800 --> 01:04:30.280
But I will also agree, like in terms of map size. Also,
1417
01:04:30.559 --> 01:04:34.079
these big aircraft have wide turning radiuses, so you may
1418
01:04:34.119 --> 01:04:35.639
think you're in the back of the map and you
1419
01:04:35.760 --> 01:04:37.880
order your guy to turn around, and he may swoop
1420
01:04:37.920 --> 01:04:40.320
halfway across the map and you're just like, no, no,
1421
01:04:41.000 --> 01:04:43.199
turn around. I don't want you going that way, And
1422
01:04:43.360 --> 01:04:45.000
got to be you gotta be careful with that. I
1423
01:04:45.000 --> 01:04:46.760
can't wait for all the comments just to say you
1424
01:04:46.800 --> 01:04:50.039
guys suck. Get good, Get good. I had a friend
1425
01:04:50.039 --> 01:04:53.400
who was interviewing someone at his job and like they're asking,
1426
01:04:53.599 --> 01:04:55.960
you know, how they how they responded to certain types
1427
01:04:56.000 --> 01:04:58.320
of challenges or whatever and at the workplace, and the
1428
01:04:58.360 --> 01:05:02.039
person's responses basically like work harder sick.
1429
01:05:02.519 --> 01:05:03.559
Okay, there you go.
1430
01:05:04.760 --> 01:05:06.199
The last thing that I think I want to talk
1431
01:05:06.239 --> 01:05:13.079
about is another comparison, mostly about differences in with RTS games,
1432
01:05:13.119 --> 01:05:15.239
and it's definitely it's gonna be called The Arms Gates
1433
01:05:15.239 --> 01:05:16.599
of hell Os Front.
1434
01:05:16.840 --> 01:05:19.760
Okay. I was thinking about this game too this whole time.
1435
01:05:20.079 --> 01:05:23.199
Yeah, Like, I'm not going to bring it up, but up,
1436
01:05:23.239 --> 01:05:23.679
I guess.
1437
01:05:24.559 --> 01:05:25.440
So I'm just thinking.
1438
01:05:25.599 --> 01:05:28.480
So it's another another RTS game, and what makes it
1439
01:05:28.559 --> 01:05:30.760
kind of stand out from what we played it, and
1440
01:05:30.800 --> 01:05:34.239
that's gonna be you have infantry units that can access
1441
01:05:34.400 --> 01:05:38.519
guns and AMMO, and they have like a inventory on
1442
01:05:38.719 --> 01:05:41.440
for every infantry unit, so that's unique. You don't have that.
1443
01:05:41.679 --> 01:05:46.280
It's definitely not a big battlefield game like Broken Arrow
1444
01:05:46.480 --> 01:05:49.760
or Warno. It's it's a tactical, more tactical RTS and
1445
01:05:49.800 --> 01:05:52.079
that's the kind of arts games that I like. So
1446
01:05:52.280 --> 01:05:55.199
I have bias in favor of Call the Arms more
1447
01:05:55.239 --> 01:05:58.800
than these other two games. But anyway, Infantry with inventory
1448
01:05:59.079 --> 01:06:05.679
makes it unique. And then the first person viewpoints with anything, infantry, tanks, ships,
1449
01:06:05.719 --> 01:06:08.679
in one of the Wolf's recent videos driving around in
1450
01:06:08.679 --> 01:06:11.599
a ship shooting things. So I think those two things
1451
01:06:12.400 --> 01:06:15.920
make Call the Arms Gates of Hell stand out compared
1452
01:06:15.960 --> 01:06:17.239
to other RTS games.
1453
01:06:17.480 --> 01:06:21.320
Yeah, and that game does an interesting thing where there
1454
01:06:21.440 --> 01:06:25.159
are off screen call in collins. You have your heavy
1455
01:06:25.239 --> 01:06:28.199
artillery in the back line, and in this case, your
1456
01:06:28.239 --> 01:06:30.679
heavy artillery for Broken Arrow or a game like Broken
1457
01:06:30.760 --> 01:06:34.760
Arrow could be cruise missiles coming in. You have aircraft
1458
01:06:34.800 --> 01:06:37.679
collins that you don't really control. You're like, I want
1459
01:06:37.719 --> 01:06:39.400
you to come in and drop a bomb here, and
1460
01:06:39.440 --> 01:06:42.519
they do that. I don't know. The games just it
1461
01:06:42.599 --> 01:06:45.960
fits my style of play a lot more than really
1462
01:06:46.039 --> 01:06:51.159
any of these modern rts's. I'd say modern I meaning
1463
01:06:51.199 --> 01:06:54.960
you know rifles, and it's like relatively slow paced as well,
1464
01:06:55.000 --> 01:06:57.960
Like you you can position, you can dig in, Your
1465
01:06:58.000 --> 01:07:00.800
infantry is survivable, you know, not just going to get
1466
01:07:00.800 --> 01:07:03.400
annihilated once a tiger rolls up, they can fight back.
1467
01:07:03.559 --> 01:07:06.079
I think it's definitely tactical. The user has to be
1468
01:07:07.280 --> 01:07:09.079
has to be smart, They have to kind of think ahead.
1469
01:07:09.079 --> 01:07:12.719
They got to think about your movements and even those games,
1470
01:07:12.800 --> 01:07:15.480
the map is still a pretty good size. The missions
1471
01:07:15.480 --> 01:07:17.719
that we played, the maps are pretty big, and like
1472
01:07:18.000 --> 01:07:20.239
on some of them, the map gets bigger the longer
1473
01:07:20.320 --> 01:07:21.880
you play the mission, because it's kind of kind of
1474
01:07:21.880 --> 01:07:23.880
the scripted way of things. I mean, you have all
1475
01:07:23.880 --> 01:07:26.639
these tactical options to kep your objectives, and I like
1476
01:07:26.880 --> 01:07:31.760
thinking about that and doing rts's in that way instead
1477
01:07:31.800 --> 01:07:34.760
of this massive you know, you're in charge of a
1478
01:07:34.800 --> 01:07:38.679
battalion or whatever sort of size that they've abstracted, broken
1479
01:07:38.800 --> 01:07:41.480
arrow and more, no units to being at, and they're
1480
01:07:41.559 --> 01:07:46.039
always looking from this you know, semi satellite view.
1481
01:07:46.280 --> 01:07:49.920
When it just comes to gameplay, I feel like Gates
1482
01:07:49.960 --> 01:07:53.400
of Hell is a lot more grounded. I've played Steel
1483
01:07:53.480 --> 01:07:58.519
Division maybe once once or twice, and I had this.
1484
01:07:58.760 --> 01:08:02.079
It was two that I played, and I had the
1485
01:08:02.119 --> 01:08:04.559
same issues with Steel Division two that I have with
1486
01:08:04.599 --> 01:08:06.679
a lot of these games that I don't have with
1487
01:08:06.760 --> 01:08:10.039
something like Call the Arms, And maybe it's just the scale,
1488
01:08:10.280 --> 01:08:14.639
Like maybe I personally just respond to better to the
1489
01:08:14.639 --> 01:08:19.840
more tactical. You control four squads a couple of vehicles
1490
01:08:20.680 --> 01:08:23.680
instead of you know, entire army groups. It feels like
1491
01:08:24.159 --> 01:08:27.079
at times and some of these games, because like you
1492
01:08:27.119 --> 01:08:29.439
were saying, and Broken Arrow you can fit like one
1493
01:08:29.479 --> 01:08:33.560
hundred dudes in a single building. I've never done that,
1494
01:08:33.880 --> 01:08:37.319
but if you wanted to, you could just spam hundreds
1495
01:08:37.359 --> 01:08:39.880
of infantry and then they can all die and get
1496
01:08:39.920 --> 01:08:45.760
mowed down pretty quick. But Gates of Hell are called arms, whatever.
1497
01:08:45.319 --> 01:08:48.680
Called arms, Gates of hell Os, Front to Easter, the
1498
01:08:48.720 --> 01:08:49.479
whole matter, etc.
1499
01:08:51.359 --> 01:08:56.760
We're sorry, sorry with respect on that name. It is
1500
01:08:56.800 --> 01:09:04.199
definitely an RTS. But Red Jumen's Broken Arrow, Steel Division
1501
01:09:04.239 --> 01:09:08.319
slash war game like those are all obviously the Eugen
1502
01:09:08.439 --> 01:09:12.039
games are, But like Eugen likes, I don't know that
1503
01:09:12.079 --> 01:09:14.720
i'd call Caled Arms a Eugen like nook. To me,
1504
01:09:14.840 --> 01:09:17.800
it's more of a tactical wargame like it's very it
1505
01:09:17.920 --> 01:09:22.039
very much stands on its own without reference to the
1506
01:09:22.119 --> 01:09:24.720
Eugen games. And so I think maybe that's why, because
1507
01:09:24.720 --> 01:09:27.640
I would agree, like I think called Arms is a
1508
01:09:28.239 --> 01:09:31.479
especially like Ostrount, it's especially a great game. But I
1509
01:09:31.560 --> 01:09:34.079
also think it's it's very much doing its own thing,
1510
01:09:34.279 --> 01:09:36.760
and I think that's you know, it's easier to sort
1511
01:09:36.800 --> 01:09:39.800
of see how something stands out and respected on its
1512
01:09:39.840 --> 01:09:43.159
own terms when it's not a game designed in reference
1513
01:09:43.199 --> 01:09:44.199
to another idea.
1514
01:09:44.319 --> 01:09:46.079
Wait a second, but I always kind of got the
1515
01:09:46.079 --> 01:09:49.079
impression that that game is a lot like Company of Heroes.
1516
01:09:49.159 --> 01:09:51.399
That's that's exactly I was going to say Company Heroes
1517
01:09:52.520 --> 01:09:52.960
and of War.
1518
01:09:53.439 --> 01:09:55.680
Well, so I never played Company of Heroes, to be clear,
1519
01:09:55.800 --> 01:09:58.279
So maybe I'm speaking out of ignorance here in terms
1520
01:09:58.279 --> 01:09:58.720
of it's.
1521
01:09:58.600 --> 01:10:01.000
A it's a good game, but I mean, I wouldn't
1522
01:10:01.000 --> 01:10:01.800
call it original.
1523
01:10:02.000 --> 01:10:06.239
It uses the same engine as Mini War Assault Squad.
1524
01:10:06.399 --> 01:10:08.600
So we played Mental War two once.
1525
01:10:08.880 --> 01:10:10.560
Yeah, we did remember that.
1526
01:10:11.880 --> 01:10:13.439
So I guess what we're trying to say is that
1527
01:10:13.479 --> 01:10:15.520
there's kind of two different types of arts games. You
1528
01:10:15.520 --> 01:10:19.000
have your usual war game type RTS games, big big
1529
01:10:19.039 --> 01:10:21.840
battlefield and you have your kind of Man of War
1530
01:10:23.239 --> 01:10:27.720
called Arms, Company of Heroes, small tactical arts game.
1531
01:10:28.079 --> 01:10:32.479
But I do agree that that Gates of Hell called Arms.
1532
01:10:32.720 --> 01:10:35.760
I'm saying the name of the Wrong Order again, is
1533
01:10:36.239 --> 01:10:38.840
a great game, and it is something that every time
1534
01:10:38.840 --> 01:10:41.840
we talk about it, I think, you guys, clearly it's
1535
01:10:41.880 --> 01:10:43.840
a game I think people should if they haven't already
1536
01:10:43.920 --> 01:10:46.520
checked out check out. I've been playing it recently. Actually,
1537
01:10:46.520 --> 01:10:48.520
they had a new DLC. I'm having a lot of
1538
01:10:48.520 --> 01:10:51.520
fun with the unique missions, but they're looking at adding
1539
01:10:51.600 --> 01:10:53.800
the British. He didn't even mention and is what have
1540
01:10:53.840 --> 01:10:56.199
you been playing lately? So can we even trust that
1541
01:10:56.279 --> 01:10:59.119
he's been playing it? Or I've been playing that. I've
1542
01:10:59.119 --> 01:11:01.279
been uploading a my YouTube channel.
1543
01:11:01.079 --> 01:11:03.680
So you know, which we all know because we've been
1544
01:11:03.800 --> 01:11:05.960
watching those videos religiously.
1545
01:11:06.439 --> 01:11:11.000
Yeah, I stopped watching that. My checks stopped coming, so
1546
01:11:11.119 --> 01:11:15.600
I stopped watching. All Kay, well we'll sort that out
1547
01:11:15.680 --> 01:11:19.560
and hit the pennies flowing your way. They stopped printing pennies,
1548
01:11:19.600 --> 01:11:22.159
so I've I've had the stop sending on. I don't
1549
01:11:22.159 --> 01:11:23.800
know that I have anything else to talk about on
1550
01:11:23.880 --> 01:11:25.640
Broken Aarrow. I don't know if anybody else wants to
1551
01:11:25.680 --> 01:11:30.239
like bring anything else up or you know, closing thoughts. No,
1552
01:11:30.800 --> 01:11:33.960
the game's interesting. It's probably the most fun I've had
1553
01:11:34.359 --> 01:11:36.640
despite all the issue And this is what we do.
1554
01:11:36.680 --> 01:11:38.800
We spend a lot of time ragging on games in
1555
01:11:38.840 --> 01:11:42.479
this on this podcast. Maybe it's a lack of booze
1556
01:11:42.479 --> 01:11:47.239
we've been consuming. Speak for yourself, buddy, Okay, but I've
1557
01:11:47.239 --> 01:11:50.000
had a lot of fun with Broken Arrow actually, heck yeah.
1558
01:11:50.039 --> 01:11:53.479
Overall it's one of these Euguene sque games that I've been,
1559
01:11:53.720 --> 01:11:55.600
you know, I was like, hey, this is this is
1560
01:11:55.640 --> 01:11:58.439
pretty good. This is fun. I like dropping nukes, I
1561
01:11:58.520 --> 01:12:02.239
like managing artillery. And maybe it's because i've been I've
1562
01:12:02.239 --> 01:12:05.720
played more of these games recently, Like I played some
1563
01:12:05.800 --> 01:12:08.880
Warner with you guys and stuff that I opted into
1564
01:12:08.920 --> 01:12:12.199
Broken Arrow and kind of knew what was what. I
1565
01:12:12.319 --> 01:12:14.840
like deck building, which we barely even talked about. Do
1566
01:12:14.880 --> 01:12:16.760
you want to talk about that? Actually, let's dive into that,
1567
01:12:16.760 --> 01:12:20.359
because there's a lot of customization, especially in the air units. Like,
1568
01:12:20.439 --> 01:12:22.800
there's so much customization in the deck building that it
1569
01:12:22.880 --> 01:12:25.199
kind of blew me away. I think deck building, I
1570
01:12:25.239 --> 01:12:27.319
mean I'm not good at it, so, but I think
1571
01:12:27.359 --> 01:12:32.600
deck building might be my favorite aspect of the game. Agreed, Like,
1572
01:12:32.720 --> 01:12:35.159
I find that pretty fun and the way they do it,
1573
01:12:35.199 --> 01:12:37.920
like managing your little points. You can have certain amount
1574
01:12:37.920 --> 01:12:42.840
of points in different groups like you know, armor, Scouts, aircraft.
1575
01:12:42.840 --> 01:12:44.760
I'm sure all these other games do this too. But
1576
01:12:45.319 --> 01:12:47.399
I also like the UI quite a bit. Uh, the
1577
01:12:47.479 --> 01:12:51.279
UI sleek. The deck building UI is pretty clean, so agreed.
1578
01:12:51.319 --> 01:12:54.439
And also we talked about bringing up what Finish mentioned
1579
01:12:54.439 --> 01:12:57.359
earlier that you can really customize your units in this one,
1580
01:12:57.399 --> 01:13:01.399
you can choose different load outs inside of it particular unit. Previously,
1581
01:13:01.439 --> 01:13:03.560
I think warn Oh did that just by having different
1582
01:13:03.640 --> 01:13:05.880
units for different variants, But this one has a lot
1583
01:13:05.920 --> 01:13:08.760
more options, Like you can customize your toetoos to be
1584
01:13:08.960 --> 01:13:11.640
top down attacks versus the straight attack if you just
1585
01:13:11.680 --> 01:13:14.600
spend a few extra points, all those kind of things.
1586
01:13:14.760 --> 01:13:17.319
Yeah, I love the the prep.
1587
01:13:17.800 --> 01:13:20.319
I love theory crafting, And if you're a person who
1588
01:13:20.399 --> 01:13:23.159
loves theory crafting, you're gonna love deck building. I mean,
1589
01:13:23.159 --> 01:13:26.000
that's just that simple, because deck building is basically theory crafting.
1590
01:13:26.000 --> 01:13:28.279
It's building your deck and then you can go into
1591
01:13:28.319 --> 01:13:30.039
the game and you could suck just like me, but
1592
01:13:30.119 --> 01:13:32.079
at least you have a fun deck to play with
1593
01:13:32.159 --> 01:13:32.680
while you do it.
1594
01:13:32.760 --> 01:13:35.000
Yeah. I agree on the UI especially too, because, like
1595
01:13:35.039 --> 01:13:36.600
I do not, you do a lot of these deck
1596
01:13:37.039 --> 01:13:39.159
in wargame. I think I can count on one hand
1597
01:13:39.199 --> 01:13:42.000
the number of times I actually modified my deck. But
1598
01:13:42.199 --> 01:13:44.439
it was incredibly intuitive to just go in and be like,
1599
01:13:44.479 --> 01:13:47.119
all right, I want my BEE fifty two to was
1600
01:13:47.119 --> 01:13:48.800
it my B fifty two or my B two? Like
1601
01:13:48.840 --> 01:13:50.319
I wanted to have a nuke, I don't want it
1602
01:13:50.359 --> 01:13:51.920
to have it in a nuke. I want it to be,
1603
01:13:52.359 --> 01:13:54.520
you know, a carpet bomb load out. I wanted to
1604
01:13:54.520 --> 01:13:56.800
be a cruise missile load out. Like you know, it's
1605
01:13:56.840 --> 01:13:59.680
pretty cool, especially on the aircraft side of things. Well
1606
01:13:59.720 --> 01:14:02.039
not even just that, Like you can change how many
1607
01:14:02.159 --> 01:14:06.600
missile reloads your Patriot battery has. Now all these changes
1608
01:14:06.640 --> 01:14:10.359
can influence how many points. It sort of goes against
1609
01:14:10.439 --> 01:14:13.199
your deck for so you can have a Patriot three
1610
01:14:13.279 --> 01:14:16.880
battery with I think like sixteen missiles, but it costs
1611
01:14:16.920 --> 01:14:21.079
fifteen percent more than if you if you have fewer missiles,
1612
01:14:21.119 --> 01:14:22.720
and maybe you want to have fewer missiles so you
1613
01:14:22.760 --> 01:14:25.920
can have more batteries on the map as opposed to
1614
01:14:26.720 --> 01:14:29.680
you know, do you wanna do you want one you
1615
01:14:29.680 --> 01:14:31.439
want to put all your eggs in one basket, all
1616
01:14:31.479 --> 01:14:33.720
your all your Patriots in one item, or do you
1617
01:14:33.760 --> 01:14:36.279
want to be able to sort of have multiple units
1618
01:14:37.600 --> 01:14:39.560
because you saved those points up and like how that
1619
01:14:39.600 --> 01:14:43.520
all interacts. There's a lot of customization options there that
1620
01:14:43.560 --> 01:14:44.920
I think are very well done.
1621
01:14:44.840 --> 01:14:47.960
And that's probably where us not playing the competitive scene,
1622
01:14:48.000 --> 01:14:50.640
like I think the customization is Also it's a double
1623
01:14:50.720 --> 01:14:52.600
edged sword, right, so I'm sure this is what Wolf
1624
01:14:52.680 --> 01:14:56.079
was talking about where all the competitive scene everyone's equipping
1625
01:14:56.119 --> 01:15:01.000
their tanks with the protective systems active protectives systems, So
1626
01:15:01.159 --> 01:15:03.520
you know that it does also lend itself to a
1627
01:15:03.680 --> 01:15:06.880
real challenge in balancing unless. I mean, because basically what
1628
01:15:07.159 --> 01:15:09.319
I'm sure everyone is doing right now is although there
1629
01:15:09.359 --> 01:15:12.560
are all these options, everyone's just cramming into the same
1630
01:15:12.600 --> 01:15:14.800
options because those are considered the meta.
1631
01:15:15.039 --> 01:15:15.920
You know, the optimal.
1632
01:15:16.560 --> 01:15:18.840
So good luck to them. I mean, I like that
1633
01:15:18.880 --> 01:15:23.439
they've provided us as option. But I followed StarCraft and
1634
01:15:23.560 --> 01:15:26.319
especially StarCraft two for a very long time at the
1635
01:15:26.359 --> 01:15:31.399
competitive scene, and the care Blizzard went into to tweak
1636
01:15:31.680 --> 01:15:35.359
any little thing not to ruin the competitive balance was
1637
01:15:35.840 --> 01:15:39.319
very intense. I mean, they really had to theory everything out.
1638
01:15:39.439 --> 01:15:41.920
I feel like this is a game which is very
1639
01:15:42.039 --> 01:15:45.279
raw on that aspect, and maybe that's lending itself a
1640
01:15:45.319 --> 01:15:47.199
little bit to the poor reviews. I think maybe the
1641
01:15:47.239 --> 01:15:49.439
hackers more so. But you know, I mean, this is
1642
01:15:49.479 --> 01:15:52.479
as a balancing hell to give yourself this many options,
1643
01:15:52.479 --> 01:15:54.239
because every one of those has to be balanced.
1644
01:15:54.319 --> 01:15:56.720
It's funny you say about you mentioned the cheating because
1645
01:15:56.720 --> 01:15:59.159
I was looking at their Steam page and like their
1646
01:15:59.680 --> 01:16:03.399
second to most recent update is literally titled on the
1647
01:16:03.479 --> 01:16:08.239
matter of cheating in bands. I think, okay, yeah, that's
1648
01:16:08.279 --> 01:16:11.119
obviously an issue if they're addressing it that openly in
1649
01:16:11.159 --> 01:16:14.000
their discussions. But yeah, I agree. I think any tell
1650
01:16:14.079 --> 01:16:16.399
me of this amount of variability and deck building, you're
1651
01:16:16.439 --> 01:16:19.800
going to create a real nightmare to try and balance,
1652
01:16:19.840 --> 01:16:22.439
and probably every update they're going to do for quite
1653
01:16:22.479 --> 01:16:24.640
a while, it's going to create a new item that's
1654
01:16:24.680 --> 01:16:27.000
op I don't know that that's unique to this game.
1655
01:16:27.039 --> 01:16:29.960
I think that's very common in competitive multiplayer games, where
1656
01:16:29.960 --> 01:16:33.399
a new update breaks one sort of exploit and maybe
1657
01:16:33.439 --> 01:16:36.520
another another item becomes sort of the meta of what
1658
01:16:36.560 --> 01:16:39.720
everybody picks. But I do think, you know, it's still fun,
1659
01:16:39.840 --> 01:16:41.880
it's fun to tinker. I don't think i'd want to
1660
01:16:41.920 --> 01:16:45.720
play competitively against other people, though personally I'm a coward. Yeah,
1661
01:16:45.760 --> 01:16:46.800
I'll just get curb stomp.
1662
01:16:46.920 --> 01:16:49.600
So the other thing I wanted to bring back up,
1663
01:16:49.880 --> 01:16:52.319
I'm not sure if we like showed enough appreciation for
1664
01:16:52.399 --> 01:16:54.000
us is probably going back to Wolfe's point that we,
1665
01:16:54.039 --> 01:16:56.359
you know, we talked about critical aspects of the game.
1666
01:16:56.439 --> 01:16:59.199
I guess the way I would phrase that, or I
1667
01:16:59.239 --> 01:17:02.159
would spin that that were like assuming that there's a
1668
01:17:02.199 --> 01:17:04.640
positive spin on the game to begin with going in
1669
01:17:04.680 --> 01:17:06.039
and then we're trying to say, hey, by the way,
1670
01:17:06.079 --> 01:17:08.279
the game isn't as perfect as you think, but yeah
1671
01:17:08.319 --> 01:17:10.760
we should start probably from the aspect of saying the
1672
01:17:10.840 --> 01:17:13.319
game is good, they call for s AI is a
1673
01:17:13.319 --> 01:17:16.119
lot of fun. I think that despite the fact that
1674
01:17:16.399 --> 01:17:19.039
we have some challenges with it. Part of that was
1675
01:17:19.560 --> 01:17:23.119
when we didn't realize setting up five AI actually meant
1676
01:17:23.119 --> 01:17:26.840
they got five times the points instead of didn't we
1677
01:17:26.880 --> 01:17:29.399
realize that at some point that when you actually played
1678
01:17:29.439 --> 01:17:32.039
against two AI, it was only it was only like
1679
01:17:32.159 --> 01:17:34.760
two x difficulty. But if you put five AI, they
1680
01:17:34.760 --> 01:17:36.960
don't seem to split the points. They all seem to
1681
01:17:36.960 --> 01:17:40.239
get all the same points. I'm not sure if that's true,
1682
01:17:40.279 --> 01:17:42.760
but like anecdotally that seems to be true, which is
1683
01:17:42.840 --> 01:17:45.720
just insane. So just a caution for everyone out there
1684
01:17:45.760 --> 01:17:49.399
playing AI versus co op. Don't I'm sorry call verse AI.
1685
01:17:49.680 --> 01:17:52.439
Don't give the AI that many units because they're just
1686
01:17:52.479 --> 01:17:54.520
going to bring in a lot more points. And another
1687
01:17:54.560 --> 01:17:58.039
interesting thing is that AI actually aggressively nuking people at
1688
01:17:58.079 --> 01:18:00.880
the start. That's not a strategy. I mean, I think
1689
01:18:00.880 --> 01:18:03.199
it betrays to the fact that the AI probably has
1690
01:18:03.279 --> 01:18:06.159
a points benefit, because I don't think you start with
1691
01:18:06.319 --> 01:18:09.560
enough points to buy a nuke at the game start.
1692
01:18:10.079 --> 01:18:11.920
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think so.
1693
01:18:12.079 --> 01:18:14.000
Maybe as the Russians, Yeah, I don't know. If the
1694
01:18:14.079 --> 01:18:16.319
Russian yeah, I mean I kind of doubt it. I
1695
01:18:16.359 --> 01:18:18.560
don't think that that's and if it is the case,
1696
01:18:18.560 --> 01:18:21.720
I don't think it should be the case people just knuke. Oh.
1697
01:18:21.760 --> 01:18:23.359
I mean, I guess if it was actually the case,
1698
01:18:23.439 --> 01:18:25.319
you spent all your points on a nuke and it
1699
01:18:25.319 --> 01:18:28.319
doesn't hit, and I guess you're screwed. But sorry, the long,
1700
01:18:28.640 --> 01:18:30.880
long story short, I'm having a lot of fun with AI.
1701
01:18:31.119 --> 01:18:33.800
With called first AI, I'm hoping that, in fact, to
1702
01:18:33.880 --> 01:18:35.960
play more of it because we haven't really played that.
1703
01:18:35.960 --> 01:18:36.319
Much of it.
1704
01:18:36.840 --> 01:18:39.640
Now that I've been playing the single player campaign, like
1705
01:18:39.760 --> 01:18:42.119
maybe getting better. Even though Finish saved me in our
1706
01:18:42.199 --> 01:18:45.239
last game, Thanks Finish, I still I'm really enjoying the
1707
01:18:46.760 --> 01:18:48.960
It's to me, it's like the closest thing I have.
1708
01:18:49.159 --> 01:18:51.199
It kind of reminds me of like when Seapower came out.
1709
01:18:51.960 --> 01:18:54.640
It was fun to play Seapower because you could put
1710
01:18:54.720 --> 01:18:58.239
yourself in these like somewhat realistic scenarios in the modern era,
1711
01:18:58.800 --> 01:19:00.600
and I like to do that same kind of thing,
1712
01:19:00.960 --> 01:19:05.439
but obviously with land based combat in this game, Broken Arrow, that's.
1713
01:19:05.319 --> 01:19:07.039
All you have to say, all right, that was beautiful.
1714
01:19:07.039 --> 01:19:14.800
A lot of things to say too, okay, okay, okay,
1715
01:19:18.319 --> 01:19:19.359
all right, Well.
1716
01:19:19.159 --> 01:19:21.520
I think that's gonna do it for our look at
1717
01:19:22.239 --> 01:19:26.439
you know, Broken Arrow and similar games in the RTS genre.
1718
01:19:27.079 --> 01:19:31.760
I want to thank Wolf, Finn and Tortuga for coming
1719
01:19:31.760 --> 01:19:35.319
on here and talking today and until next time. This
1720
01:19:35.399 --> 01:19:37.600
is the historical gamer. But you can call me Matt
1721
01:19:37.600 --> 01:19:40.920
for the single Malt Strategy podcast and we're out.