[00:00:08] Wren Hello to all my guys, gals and non-binary pals. Welcome to the Shibalry Study podcast. I'm your host, Wren. Shibari Study is an online learning resource offering video tutorials for beginners through advanced practitioners. Whether you're brand new to the world of Shibari and needing to learn the basics, or a seasoned rigger or rope bottom seeking inspiration to push your practice to new places, there's something for you at shibaristudy.com. Today, I'm talking to Davide. You'll know Davide as Laodai on the internet. Davide uses he/him pronouns. He's a professional rigger. He's a world traveler or as he says, a nomad that doesn't have a home. I'm excited to have you on today. How are you?
[00:00:58] Davide I'm good. Very, very good.
[00:01:00] Wren Speaking of–
[00:01:01] Davide Actually I'm in Thailand now.
[00:01:03] Wren Well, I was going to bring that up because we originally made plans, you were in Europe. And we set a time and I'm in Los Angeles, so it's a very big time difference. But then you went to Thailand. We had to reschedule. And now you're up at 1 a.m..
[00:01:19] Davide Exactly. But happy to be, happy to be here at 1 a.m..
[00:01:25] Wren Well, thank you so much for burning the midnight oil with us. You were– before we started talking, you were talking a lot about really liking the emotional side of rope, and you said some really cool stuff about not super being into suspensions in the beginning, and I want to get into all that. But before we do, I would love to know where you found (…). What did you like about it?
[00:01:52] Davide That's very, very difficult. It's complicated. I had a girlfriend in China, like, ten years ago, and, suddenly she showed me a picture of her tied up. Before, I never had any experience of (…) stuff except (…) with partners. So I see, I see the picture as a girl, like, overwhelmed by emotion. Like very huge range of emotion. Like, pleasure, jealousy, rage, happiness. Very confusing emotional state. And so I said, Oh, maybe there's this potential in this case, I believe.
[00:02:39] Wren If you can put yourself back there, tell me about the negative emotions that you feel. Or maybe they're not a negative emotions, but you said you felt jealousy and you felt rage and anger. I think that that's very common when people see their partner tied up or something like that. Can you talk to us about that a little bit?
[00:03:00] Davide Yeah, I think, I think it's normal in the, in the bigger sense, let's say complex relationship or multi-layer or poly or how you want to call, is, is, kind of emotion that you need to, to learn how to feel them because, if you are not mature, you can really get overwhelmed by, by those. So that's kind of what happened. When you see something for the first time, you are unprepared. But I'm very open minded person and very like, addicted to, to emotion. So I'm happy when this happen even if it's bad emotions, I still try to embrace and, and understand myself. In that case was kind of a good starting point because was not so shocking because it was previous than our relationship. So it was not like, oh, I'm doing this. I did this yesterday. So a little more easy to, to get, to understand it. But yeah, it's something– is sort of a personal growth and revolution is part of it, I guess.
[00:04:27] Wren Do you remember some of the emotions you wanted to express with rope in the beginning? Do you remember why you started doing it? Some of those things you wanted to get out or express with somebody else?
[00:04:40] Davide Yeah. It's very connected to this person because, we were very close and very like, in love, let's say, and then we break up and they start rope after we break up. Let's say as a sort of compensation and sort of understand what a person that you really close felt in, in her previous experience and also like, tried to open the door that maybe can, maybe get you closer again to that person. So I start in, like, in a mix of curiosity and regret and this kind of stuff. And artistic side also, I'm quite artistic person. I was designer at work in advertising before. So a mix of these things led me, like I said, the star– and actually, it was [00:05:43]at Burning Man [0.5s] when I started. So there were workshop there, so... I say, let's see, is, is a sort of like a... Domino effect that brings me to rope.
[00:06:02] Wren You said you're a very artistic person, and you sound like you're a very empathetic person and a very feeling person. Do you have any practices outside of rope that complement that? Like, are you a reader? Are you a writer? Are you a journaler? A meditator?
[00:06:22] Davide Let's say, I discovered rope like I was already 34, 33. Before I handle the artistic process, like, punk rock band teenager music, then I start to do illustrations and installations. I know the artistic process, and it's never– This is also part of it, I guess is, is, a process, you know, when you don't have that huge success in something, you keep exploring. But this is, I like, I like I don't regret anything of this is, it's a process.
[00:07:07] Wren How do you feel about the aesthetics of rope? I'm jumping around a lot in this shot here, but it just, I'm so curious because you said you're an artist and you obv– you illustrated a journey as an artist starting in punk rock and moving to more refined art.
[00:07:27] Davide Yeah. So let's say I started rope for artistic reason. I didn't get the emotional side at the beginning. I was just looking picture. I found them beautiful. Apart the girlfriend thing. Then I came back to China and I wanted to start and nobody wanted to, to help me to tie. And China was very conservative ten years ago about this. Nobody care. So I was almost give up when I googled how to find a model. And I found out there was FL that I didn't know before. And in China, in Shanghai, there were, like, 40 people on FL. One, only one tied up. So I basically wrote to that person because, it's still my rope partner now. And she's Japanese. She was tied by Yukimura-sensei in Japan, that is on an emotional style. So when I was training with her, as long as I put the little rope on the arm, she was like, spacing out. And then I said, Oh, wow, so there's a lot of more than the artistic, the artistic side. And she actually opened me the door of this kind of huge emotion you can, you can find out. And then I realized that the real aesthetics is in that when, when the model is feelling, it's beautiful for me. So I found that more interesting and beautiful than just posing to say? That I do, I still do it also. I'm very fluid in my rope, but, the main thing is emotion.
[00:09:33] Wren Yeah, it sounds like a focus on the person being tied rather than the whole image and the rope.
[00:09:41] Davide Exactly. That, that's it. I'm very, I'm very– for me, the, the now is like ten years I do rope so my main goal is answering my own question when when I grow. So, I have a lot of answer actually. For me, the main thing is lowering the risk at the beginning– main important. So not hurt the model. Second, very close is pleasure. Getting pleasure out of the rope. And then comes the aesthetics. And the beauty is the third most important thing. I have these three things. But if is only beautiful, I don't do. If it's only safe or low risk, I can do. So I do– I have this mental scheme when I design thing or do a session or...
[00:10:46] Wren That's so cool. I would love to dig into these points.
[00:10:51] Davide [00:10:51]For me, there are two rules in shibari. First rule is, as long is consensual and not dangerous, really people can do whatever. I discover people are different in rope. And if they find the people they match together is completely fine. In the rope, let's say there's 70% of the things I see, I don't understand in my mind. But this doesn't mean it's not-- wrong, is wrong, or is not shibari or whatever. Is just I am limited myself to understand what... Their opinions come from. Yeah, so it's fine. I don't really understand rope and meditation or rope and flowers or rope and free hands. But this is still cool to watch. Sometime I watch, I see them connected. And even if I don't understand and I don't, I feel like, oh, it's cool. It should be- if they like, it should be. And the second rule is pictures and videos are always better than reality. That's my second rule. Counting myself. Sometimes I see a picture of my show and I say, oh wow, this never happened. To me it wasn't that cool. It wasn't that cool as in the picture. [91.7s]
[00:12:24] Wren You're saying too many great things I want to talk about. So much of this is awesome. I want to move back briefly and go through your flow of the scene. I- those rules are incredible. And we're going to dig into those, especially the ones about pictures and video being better, because as an artist, I have thoughts about the magic behind the art. And once you know that stuff, it's not as cool. But before we get there, you talked about, you talked about lowering the risk in your first flow chart, and I want to ask about that. Like, define risk for you. Define what you would see as unsafe. And I think also talk about how the relationship between you and a model that you have worked with a lot changes, and the things you do together can grow over time.
[00:13:21] Davide So lowering risk I think the real risk is ignorance. I mean not get knowledge– not knowledge enough. It's like what I said to people is like, imagine that's the city, they never see a bicycle with brakes. They believe a bicycle doesn't have brakes and then they ride the bicycle. And then you come and you say, look, you can put brakes is more safe. And they don't get it because they say, Oh, we always went without. And so is this. [00:14:05]The main thing is making people understand there are way too lower the risk, that Iis your choice. Your risk profile is your choice. [9.5s] But you should have all the elements. And staying in this example, if I go outside with a bicycle, I can decide what to wear; helmet or protection and brakes and checking the tires, the lights, whatever. Or just go, without brakes. Without helmet, with the patch on an eye and without one pedal. Flat tires. I mean, it's up to you. And the, the weird part is, you're not– whatever you do, you're not sure an accident can happen or not. You can come safe with, with the worst risk profile and be injured with the best risk profile. But people should know what's the best and what's the worst and then take decision. So that's my my way to to get this low risk.
[00:15:18] Wren I love it. One of the things that you said I really enjoyed was you show someone a bicycle that has brakes, and if someone says, Oh, we've never used brakes before, we don't need brakes. We just put our feet down or we run into a building and stop. We don't need brakes. [00:15:34]It's really alluding to a lack of wanting to change and grow, being set in your ways. [6.8s] And that's dangerous.
[00:15:45] Davide Yeah, it is potentially more dangerous. I agree. Because, it depends– you have two choice. If you don't want to, don't use break, you have to master it. You really have to be the master of not brakes– eh, bikes. There's no right or wrong, is just... If you take the risk, you have to really master it.
[00:16:10] Wren That's a good point. And it's hard to master something like that.
[00:16:13] Davide It's hard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You have to put more effort and put more energy. It's not impossible. For example, in the rope, good example of this is, is the Naka Akira style is potentially dangerous, but Naka himself master it, in a way that is over humans. So if you want to imitate that style, you also have to, to put the same amount of effort. Because that is, the risk profile of that is higher than maybe other way to tie.
[00:16:54] Wren What you gain from tying in a style that might be above your current skill set, you'll never gain out the connection from that. You'll never– it's a lose-lose scenario.
[00:17:06] Davide Yes, is, is, it's complicated because, people again are different. I'm giving up honestly to try to understand everything that's happening. People make their own choices and maybe they're right from their point of view. Maybe they're doing good. I'm not the judge of rope. The world judge of rope. By myself, I can judge what I do. I try to lower the risk because lowering the risk make the session more– the second point, more valuable.
[00:17:48] Wren You're doing my job for me. And I appreciate that because it does affect the pleasure. It does make the pleasure work, when you have those risks settled in and you're working within your skill set. I would be curious how you define pleasure for yourself.
[00:18:09] Davide Okay, so I'm lucky because I'm– my (…) is the bottom pleasure.
[00:18:18] Wren I love it.
[00:18:18] Davide So I got the the, when I see the pleasure in the bottom, I feel pleasure. So, I don't really care about their limits, because every limits is fine for me. I don't need to, to break their limits to get pleasure. Because I just need them to be happy and, and orgasm or whatever, or I feel, I feel satisfied. Very satisfied, very happy.
[00:18:47] Wren It sounds like the connection between who you're tying and you is really important. And because I'm also a person that can go in and out of different things. If the person I'm with really likes something, I can get on board with that and really like it because I want mutual pleasure. So sometimes I find that it's difficult because I'll say something like, Yeah, I am down for whatever, what are you into? What are you– and, and do you ever feel the pressure maybe to be more specific about what you like when you're negotiating with somebody? Does that make sense?
[00:19:28] Davide I learned to be very specific when I, when I discuss a scene. I suggest when I teach, I suggest this also to people to really be [00:19:40]specific. Don't ask question, state thing and then get an answer yes or no. Because questions are too open, and then there's too much gray area and especially don't, don't say you can do everything. [20.8s] That's a very bad answer.
[00:20:04] Wren Yeah. No one can. No one likes everything.
[00:20:06] Davide Exactly. And then don't ask, I think that the very bad question is, [00:20:12]Is there something you don't like? This is very bad question because you can, you don't have enough time to go through everything. You can say 3 or 4 big nos. But then you don't know what I have in mind. Maybe I can just whisper that word that makes you remember a trauma in your life. [22.6s] So I usually I have specific– I said I will probably do this, do this, do this, do this. And then I wait for an answer, Oh, not, don't do that, or, Okay, okay. It is in terms of consent more than the pleasure. In terms of pleasure, when, when we are in this situation that I have a bottom that is submissive and then I have my dom, but I think there's a name of it, like servant dom...?
[00:21:07] Wren Service dom.
[00:21:09] Davide Service, yes. So, yes, you can get this kind of stalemate but as I put the Dom energies, so it's very clear the rules. So it's kind of flow thing that happen naturally. It's not really– as long you maintain the rules is getting... It works.
[00:21:33] Wren Yeah. You said pictures and video are not the reality. And I think that goes along with aesthetics and, and general outcomes. Because so much of the rope scene is online. Fet, Instagram, all those places, that there's a lot of pressure to post. And you're an artist, you're coming from a visual background. Tell me why photos and videos aren't real.
[00:21:57] Davide I want to, to do... Hard to say, interaction? Is, I'm very bad with social network. I'm lazy and I hate– I have like, maybe thousands of pictures that I didn't post in the past. And I try to to put as much as I can, but I'm slow. So I feel the social network are giving, like... Separating in toward the scene. Like there's one, they're very unsocial. And there's one they're most on the ropes. Sometimes the two things are overlaying, but, I see some, some people really caring of promotions and, and social, I don't know. Again, I'm not judging anybody. I, for my experience, I believe the pictures are always better than what really happened. Because I do a lot of– I never take picture myself. Very rarely. There are all photographer of the event or some friends or taking picture of my scene. And, when I see them, I say, Oh, wow, this wasn't like it was.
[00:23:29] Wren I love how you're phrasing this, because most people talk about pictures. And I might have done this when I talked about pictures a moment ago, but most people say the picture isn't representative. Most people say negative things towards a picture saying the– [00:23:43]essentially alluding to the photo's lie about what the scene is. It's a snapshot. But I like what you're saying because you're saying that the photo creates magic around the moment and is a hyper idealized version of the moment, [18.6s] which is very cool. And that's what movies are. That's what music is. That's what all these things are. It's it's a highly curated version of something.
[00:24:12] Davide Yeah, is they're lies. Yeah, the highlights of the, of what happened. Because, like, I did a show recently. It was like this very, very small stage. And I really into the scene when I do performance, I really like, focus on model. So I fall down because I didn't see the stage was over. And of course, I laugh. I mean, I didn't fall, I just put my feet down. But I laugh and, and everybody laugh. But you don't see that in the, in the picture or in the, in the video. It's super cool. Everything is super cool. So, yeah, it's like the highlights of the film. Just, I think people just need to, to understand that it's not that it's a bad thing. Just don't take picture for reality. They're part of reality, they are frame of what happend, but it's not the whole story.
[00:25:16] Wren Do you think both are important? Do you think both add to rope in general?
[00:25:24] Davide Yes. It's, I believe is, is, I'm also an hedonist person. I believe is, is, something is beauty is good. And, it's, it's, it's just that is not wrong. Is about how people react to that. If, if I see a picture, extremely beauty with other people, I will say, Oh, wow, it is very beautiful picture. And it will be probably a very intense moment of the scene. Is real, I don't doubt is real or not. But then I, I will figure it out that when they made it or they took it, it was a real moment. Not, not like a goal to make the picture. Let's say the goal was and do the picture. Maybe it's hard to explain, but I think when they take the picture, they're good to catch the beauty of the moment. And the, the reality is more wide. The pleasure and the beauty of the reality is more why. Maybe one picture is good and the session was bad. This also can happen. So, just people, I will tell the people to know that. Know that the picture not always is, is what happens. In my case also, so I'm counting myself in.
[00:27:08] Wren Yeah, I think that's important for everybody to remember. You were saying in the beginning of this that suspension didn't appeal to you.
[00:27:20] Davide I did, I did also say process. I mean, is very natural because of how the the rope world is, is built. It's very natural to believe that suspension is a huge element, and it is. So I also started doing suspension. The thing is, everybody should find his own reason to do it. That's the, the, the challenge. Not doing, doing it is practice. Finding the way is the real challenge. If you, if I ask somebody that is artistic thing and I say, Why you suspend this person? And they said, Oh, I want to take a beautiful picture, and for me is enough because they found their reason. Is not my reason, but if you have a reason, do it. I was struggling to find that reason because aesthetics please me, but not the much (…) and not (…). See somebody struggling in the air is not my thing. So, yeah. So then you... I met this, this guy in the, in the, in the party. Who got, like, beaten up with with a cane. But in a very hard way. I never seen that before or after it like really (…) and open skin. And then I went to him because it was very curious, and say, There's no in the world that you enjoy that. Is impossible. This is kind of a hospital thing. And he said, You're right, I really didn't enjoy it, I enjoy the moment when it's over. And then made sense for me. It was like, Wow, this is quite interesting thing. And then I associate to the, to the drop thing at the theme park. Because I hate that. Every single moment. But I keep going. Every time I go, I keep going. It's stronger than me. And I know I hate, but I keep going. So I said, Oh, wow, so this work in the brain is a mental process to enjoy when it's over. So that was my reason. If you see, when I, when I teach, I tell people my style is called the same journey. Not because they want to be like, so cool that I have my own style, but just for this reason, because it's my answer of my question. So basically, I didn't make my suspension enjoyable for me. I still don't like them. I actually made them more unenjoyable. I designed my suspension in a way that I struggle. I do every time deadlifts. And the thing I do is very, very power consumption for me. That brings me in the same area of the model to struggle in their own way, like pain or position. I'm struggling in my own way. Like, Oh! If you see my my videos doing suspension, I'm like a demon, like making noise, like, "OUAH. HNGH. HUAH." But we are in the same area. So when I pull her down, she's like, Oh, it's over! I'm also like, Oh, (…) is over! And we are in the same area also there. And then I found a way to create connection that I look in the tie, in the suspension because connection was missing before in my suspension. But struggling together and get released together makes me enjoy suspension. So, technically, to enjoy suspension, I made them less enjoyable.
[00:31:35] Wren That's amazing. I think a lot of people feel that, where they want to feel pushed, they want to feel exerted, and they want to feel accomplished, like they did the thing. And it's hard to get that as a top. As a bottom, it sucks to be in rope. And even before a lot people go in the rope, they're like, Why am I doing this? It's going to hurt. But then you get out and it feels amazing.
[00:31:59] Davide I turn this process in the top side. Yeah.
[00:32:02] Wren Yeah. And I wonder... I've never heard it from the top's perspective. [00:32:07]You making it physically exhausting on yourself to also feel that with your model. And I bet that leads to really cool communication and and bonding between you two. [12.4s]
[00:32:21] Davide Yeah, so that's my way to make it. I look for connection. That's my way to get connection during suspension. Because was a struggle for me before. Because I was looking at these beautiful shapes and I was like, Why they do this?
[00:32:38] Wren I love the amount of introspection that you have, asking yourself, why am I doing this? That's a really cool– and it's also really vulnerable thing for you to do because you have to answer it.
[00:32:51] Davide Exactly. The, the challenge part is answer question. For every rigger or model I guess, is answering 'why am I doing this?' And that can be every answer. I'm not saying, Oh, you have to find connection. That's the right way. No, is your answer. But find it, not do it just because everybody does or no reason. If you're (…) and you have a very (…) model, it's fine. It's fine. You torture her and you laugh when she's crying, it's completely fine. But it's your reason, or if you do, like, flower decoration is your reason. No, no, no, no problem.
[00:33:37] Wren Let me ask you this. You've figured out your Why over many years of introspection. What are some things that rope tops, riggers, doms can do to figure out they're Whys?
[00:33:55] Davide I dunno. I mean, it wasn't easy for me, I don't want to think what others think.
[00:34:00] Wren I mean, hearing that's good, though. Hearing it's not easy is good.
[00:34:03] Davide I know, I know, it's very introspective. You're right. It's very like... I think it started for, for... Like my discomfort to not understand what I was doing in suspension, because floor is fine for me. I find the connection that I look for. And so I struggle to find, to find a way to make reasonable for me. I think everybody can go through different experience. Maybe for somebody is very, very easy. They know before even starting. They know what they want. They know they liked it. For maybe somebody not, they will never find, they don't know, is I don't feel I'm in the position to suggest people how to do it, because I have no idea.
[00:34:57] Wren I love it. Thank you for being so honest about that. Not making something up and saying you don't feel like you're in a position to say that, because it is a very personal journey.
[00:35:08] Davide Yes, it is. It is.
[00:35:09] Wren We've talked a lot about your journey. We've talked a lot about you in a scene, and I have a great picture of the person you are in rope, and I feel like it doesn't stop when the model is, either comes to the ground or you start to untie. I think that your scene really pushes through the untying parts. What does that look like?
[00:35:33] Davide Exactly. That is, that's very true. For me, the climax is not the the suspension, is the untying part.
[00:35:44] Wren The climax! The climax.
[00:35:46] Davide Yeah. Yeah. Is, because it's the moment where the connect– the highest connection happen. And the moment where people are more vulnerable. And then also, when I, when I do workshop, I explain, like, if I do a very complicated, let's say pattern and I ask somebody that is not into rope like, whoever. The first guy in the street. Can you tie these? He would say, I don't think so. Now, if I ask him, can you untie it? Everybody can. Everybody can untie. There's no skill requested. So that means your brain don't go to the rope. Go to the person, because you don't need any skill. You don't need to think to any knot or pattern. So you can dedicate 100% of the model to the model. So that create the best connection. And so I really enjoy untying. Somebody make fun of me sometimes too. Like, I don't say the name, but, like big names. They say, I'm master of untying. But I'm happy. I'm happy of that definition. I like it because it's true.
[00:37:09] Wren It's the best part. As somebody that gets tied, being in rope and then having someone untie you lovingly is the best part.
[00:37:18] Davide Yeah, I agree, I agree.
[00:37:19] Wren It's why we do it.
[00:37:22] Davide Sometime, again, I try not to judge anybody, but this kind of, this thing probably is stronger than me, I feel to jump into. Something very rarely, thanks God, very rarely, I see, but it happened to see model tying them– untying themselves. After suspension. I see the rigger like untie the hand, and then the model untie herself or himself. And I was like, This, this very, very, very hurting me watching you.
[00:37:57] Wren Yeah. I, yeah. I would never untie myself. I would always let that–
[00:38:03] Davide No, don't do. Enjoy the process.
[00:38:06] Wren I love how in everything you're saying, you're centering the person.
[00:38:11] Davide That is true. Is, is what I do actually is, it's my way to do it. I really like to focus on the person and get their, their pleasure.
[00:38:24] Wren Thank you for being so open about everything. It's clear that your, your work is charged with emotion and you lead with emotion. And thank you for giving us so many tips and tactile things on how we can bring emotion into our own practice.
[00:38:40] Davide Thank you.
[00:38:41] Wren Where, where can people find you if they want to connect with you?
[00:38:47] Davide I decided like, this month to have soon a website because I think after ten years, it's time to have a website.
[00:38:56] Wren It's, it's probably time.
[00:38:58] Davide But I still don't have. So probably better is Instagram. That is laodai.shibari or laodai_shibari . I have two because they banned one and then they gave me back.
[00:39:16] Wren They love to do that.
[00:39:17] Davide So now I end up with two accounts, that double my struggle. And then I will complete there also because I manage as more Twitter and that is, I think laodaishibari without all together.
[00:39:33] Wren Okay. Well those things will be in the show notes below, but thank you so much for being on, and it's probably about 3:00 in the morning now for you? So you need to get to bed.
[00:39:44] Davide 2:00.
[00:39:45] Wren 2:00 in the morning. Well you said you don't sleep very much anyway, so...
[00:39:49] Davide Good. Thank you very much. I really enjoyed I really enjoyed it. I can, I can keep going hours.
[00:00:58] Davide I'm good. Very, very good.
[00:01:00] Wren Speaking of–
[00:01:01] Davide Actually I'm in Thailand now.
[00:01:03] Wren Well, I was going to bring that up because we originally made plans, you were in Europe. And we set a time and I'm in Los Angeles, so it's a very big time difference. But then you went to Thailand. We had to reschedule. And now you're up at 1 a.m..
[00:01:19] Davide Exactly. But happy to be, happy to be here at 1 a.m..
[00:01:25] Wren Well, thank you so much for burning the midnight oil with us. You were– before we started talking, you were talking a lot about really liking the emotional side of rope, and you said some really cool stuff about not super being into suspensions in the beginning, and I want to get into all that. But before we do, I would love to know where you found (…). What did you like about it?
[00:01:52] Davide That's very, very difficult. It's complicated. I had a girlfriend in China, like, ten years ago, and, suddenly she showed me a picture of her tied up. Before, I never had any experience of (…) stuff except (…) with partners. So I see, I see the picture as a girl, like, overwhelmed by emotion. Like very huge range of emotion. Like, pleasure, jealousy, rage, happiness. Very confusing emotional state. And so I said, Oh, maybe there's this potential in this case, I believe.
[00:02:39] Wren If you can put yourself back there, tell me about the negative emotions that you feel. Or maybe they're not a negative emotions, but you said you felt jealousy and you felt rage and anger. I think that that's very common when people see their partner tied up or something like that. Can you talk to us about that a little bit?
[00:03:00] Davide Yeah, I think, I think it's normal in the, in the bigger sense, let's say complex relationship or multi-layer or poly or how you want to call, is, is, kind of emotion that you need to, to learn how to feel them because, if you are not mature, you can really get overwhelmed by, by those. So that's kind of what happened. When you see something for the first time, you are unprepared. But I'm very open minded person and very like, addicted to, to emotion. So I'm happy when this happen even if it's bad emotions, I still try to embrace and, and understand myself. In that case was kind of a good starting point because was not so shocking because it was previous than our relationship. So it was not like, oh, I'm doing this. I did this yesterday. So a little more easy to, to get, to understand it. But yeah, it's something– is sort of a personal growth and revolution is part of it, I guess.
[00:04:27] Wren Do you remember some of the emotions you wanted to express with rope in the beginning? Do you remember why you started doing it? Some of those things you wanted to get out or express with somebody else?
[00:04:40] Davide Yeah. It's very connected to this person because, we were very close and very like, in love, let's say, and then we break up and they start rope after we break up. Let's say as a sort of compensation and sort of understand what a person that you really close felt in, in her previous experience and also like, tried to open the door that maybe can, maybe get you closer again to that person. So I start in, like, in a mix of curiosity and regret and this kind of stuff. And artistic side also, I'm quite artistic person. I was designer at work in advertising before. So a mix of these things led me, like I said, the star– and actually, it was [00:05:43]at Burning Man [0.5s] when I started. So there were workshop there, so... I say, let's see, is, is a sort of like a... Domino effect that brings me to rope.
[00:06:02] Wren You said you're a very artistic person, and you sound like you're a very empathetic person and a very feeling person. Do you have any practices outside of rope that complement that? Like, are you a reader? Are you a writer? Are you a journaler? A meditator?
[00:06:22] Davide Let's say, I discovered rope like I was already 34, 33. Before I handle the artistic process, like, punk rock band teenager music, then I start to do illustrations and installations. I know the artistic process, and it's never– This is also part of it, I guess is, is, a process, you know, when you don't have that huge success in something, you keep exploring. But this is, I like, I like I don't regret anything of this is, it's a process.
[00:07:07] Wren How do you feel about the aesthetics of rope? I'm jumping around a lot in this shot here, but it just, I'm so curious because you said you're an artist and you obv– you illustrated a journey as an artist starting in punk rock and moving to more refined art.
[00:07:27] Davide Yeah. So let's say I started rope for artistic reason. I didn't get the emotional side at the beginning. I was just looking picture. I found them beautiful. Apart the girlfriend thing. Then I came back to China and I wanted to start and nobody wanted to, to help me to tie. And China was very conservative ten years ago about this. Nobody care. So I was almost give up when I googled how to find a model. And I found out there was FL that I didn't know before. And in China, in Shanghai, there were, like, 40 people on FL. One, only one tied up. So I basically wrote to that person because, it's still my rope partner now. And she's Japanese. She was tied by Yukimura-sensei in Japan, that is on an emotional style. So when I was training with her, as long as I put the little rope on the arm, she was like, spacing out. And then I said, Oh, wow, so there's a lot of more than the artistic, the artistic side. And she actually opened me the door of this kind of huge emotion you can, you can find out. And then I realized that the real aesthetics is in that when, when the model is feelling, it's beautiful for me. So I found that more interesting and beautiful than just posing to say? That I do, I still do it also. I'm very fluid in my rope, but, the main thing is emotion.
[00:09:33] Wren Yeah, it sounds like a focus on the person being tied rather than the whole image and the rope.
[00:09:41] Davide Exactly. That, that's it. I'm very, I'm very– for me, the, the now is like ten years I do rope so my main goal is answering my own question when when I grow. So, I have a lot of answer actually. For me, the main thing is lowering the risk at the beginning– main important. So not hurt the model. Second, very close is pleasure. Getting pleasure out of the rope. And then comes the aesthetics. And the beauty is the third most important thing. I have these three things. But if is only beautiful, I don't do. If it's only safe or low risk, I can do. So I do– I have this mental scheme when I design thing or do a session or...
[00:10:46] Wren That's so cool. I would love to dig into these points.
[00:10:51] Davide [00:10:51]For me, there are two rules in shibari. First rule is, as long is consensual and not dangerous, really people can do whatever. I discover people are different in rope. And if they find the people they match together is completely fine. In the rope, let's say there's 70% of the things I see, I don't understand in my mind. But this doesn't mean it's not-- wrong, is wrong, or is not shibari or whatever. Is just I am limited myself to understand what... Their opinions come from. Yeah, so it's fine. I don't really understand rope and meditation or rope and flowers or rope and free hands. But this is still cool to watch. Sometime I watch, I see them connected. And even if I don't understand and I don't, I feel like, oh, it's cool. It should be- if they like, it should be. And the second rule is pictures and videos are always better than reality. That's my second rule. Counting myself. Sometimes I see a picture of my show and I say, oh wow, this never happened. To me it wasn't that cool. It wasn't that cool as in the picture. [91.7s]
[00:12:24] Wren You're saying too many great things I want to talk about. So much of this is awesome. I want to move back briefly and go through your flow of the scene. I- those rules are incredible. And we're going to dig into those, especially the ones about pictures and video being better, because as an artist, I have thoughts about the magic behind the art. And once you know that stuff, it's not as cool. But before we get there, you talked about, you talked about lowering the risk in your first flow chart, and I want to ask about that. Like, define risk for you. Define what you would see as unsafe. And I think also talk about how the relationship between you and a model that you have worked with a lot changes, and the things you do together can grow over time.
[00:13:21] Davide So lowering risk I think the real risk is ignorance. I mean not get knowledge– not knowledge enough. It's like what I said to people is like, imagine that's the city, they never see a bicycle with brakes. They believe a bicycle doesn't have brakes and then they ride the bicycle. And then you come and you say, look, you can put brakes is more safe. And they don't get it because they say, Oh, we always went without. And so is this. [00:14:05]The main thing is making people understand there are way too lower the risk, that Iis your choice. Your risk profile is your choice. [9.5s] But you should have all the elements. And staying in this example, if I go outside with a bicycle, I can decide what to wear; helmet or protection and brakes and checking the tires, the lights, whatever. Or just go, without brakes. Without helmet, with the patch on an eye and without one pedal. Flat tires. I mean, it's up to you. And the, the weird part is, you're not– whatever you do, you're not sure an accident can happen or not. You can come safe with, with the worst risk profile and be injured with the best risk profile. But people should know what's the best and what's the worst and then take decision. So that's my my way to to get this low risk.
[00:15:18] Wren I love it. One of the things that you said I really enjoyed was you show someone a bicycle that has brakes, and if someone says, Oh, we've never used brakes before, we don't need brakes. We just put our feet down or we run into a building and stop. We don't need brakes. [00:15:34]It's really alluding to a lack of wanting to change and grow, being set in your ways. [6.8s] And that's dangerous.
[00:15:45] Davide Yeah, it is potentially more dangerous. I agree. Because, it depends– you have two choice. If you don't want to, don't use break, you have to master it. You really have to be the master of not brakes– eh, bikes. There's no right or wrong, is just... If you take the risk, you have to really master it.
[00:16:10] Wren That's a good point. And it's hard to master something like that.
[00:16:13] Davide It's hard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You have to put more effort and put more energy. It's not impossible. For example, in the rope, good example of this is, is the Naka Akira style is potentially dangerous, but Naka himself master it, in a way that is over humans. So if you want to imitate that style, you also have to, to put the same amount of effort. Because that is, the risk profile of that is higher than maybe other way to tie.
[00:16:54] Wren What you gain from tying in a style that might be above your current skill set, you'll never gain out the connection from that. You'll never– it's a lose-lose scenario.
[00:17:06] Davide Yes, is, is, it's complicated because, people again are different. I'm giving up honestly to try to understand everything that's happening. People make their own choices and maybe they're right from their point of view. Maybe they're doing good. I'm not the judge of rope. The world judge of rope. By myself, I can judge what I do. I try to lower the risk because lowering the risk make the session more– the second point, more valuable.
[00:17:48] Wren You're doing my job for me. And I appreciate that because it does affect the pleasure. It does make the pleasure work, when you have those risks settled in and you're working within your skill set. I would be curious how you define pleasure for yourself.
[00:18:09] Davide Okay, so I'm lucky because I'm– my (…) is the bottom pleasure.
[00:18:18] Wren I love it.
[00:18:18] Davide So I got the the, when I see the pleasure in the bottom, I feel pleasure. So, I don't really care about their limits, because every limits is fine for me. I don't need to, to break their limits to get pleasure. Because I just need them to be happy and, and orgasm or whatever, or I feel, I feel satisfied. Very satisfied, very happy.
[00:18:47] Wren It sounds like the connection between who you're tying and you is really important. And because I'm also a person that can go in and out of different things. If the person I'm with really likes something, I can get on board with that and really like it because I want mutual pleasure. So sometimes I find that it's difficult because I'll say something like, Yeah, I am down for whatever, what are you into? What are you– and, and do you ever feel the pressure maybe to be more specific about what you like when you're negotiating with somebody? Does that make sense?
[00:19:28] Davide I learned to be very specific when I, when I discuss a scene. I suggest when I teach, I suggest this also to people to really be [00:19:40]specific. Don't ask question, state thing and then get an answer yes or no. Because questions are too open, and then there's too much gray area and especially don't, don't say you can do everything. [20.8s] That's a very bad answer.
[00:20:04] Wren Yeah. No one can. No one likes everything.
[00:20:06] Davide Exactly. And then don't ask, I think that the very bad question is, [00:20:12]Is there something you don't like? This is very bad question because you can, you don't have enough time to go through everything. You can say 3 or 4 big nos. But then you don't know what I have in mind. Maybe I can just whisper that word that makes you remember a trauma in your life. [22.6s] So I usually I have specific– I said I will probably do this, do this, do this, do this. And then I wait for an answer, Oh, not, don't do that, or, Okay, okay. It is in terms of consent more than the pleasure. In terms of pleasure, when, when we are in this situation that I have a bottom that is submissive and then I have my dom, but I think there's a name of it, like servant dom...?
[00:21:07] Wren Service dom.
[00:21:09] Davide Service, yes. So, yes, you can get this kind of stalemate but as I put the Dom energies, so it's very clear the rules. So it's kind of flow thing that happen naturally. It's not really– as long you maintain the rules is getting... It works.
[00:21:33] Wren Yeah. You said pictures and video are not the reality. And I think that goes along with aesthetics and, and general outcomes. Because so much of the rope scene is online. Fet, Instagram, all those places, that there's a lot of pressure to post. And you're an artist, you're coming from a visual background. Tell me why photos and videos aren't real.
[00:21:57] Davide I want to, to do... Hard to say, interaction? Is, I'm very bad with social network. I'm lazy and I hate– I have like, maybe thousands of pictures that I didn't post in the past. And I try to to put as much as I can, but I'm slow. So I feel the social network are giving, like... Separating in toward the scene. Like there's one, they're very unsocial. And there's one they're most on the ropes. Sometimes the two things are overlaying, but, I see some, some people really caring of promotions and, and social, I don't know. Again, I'm not judging anybody. I, for my experience, I believe the pictures are always better than what really happened. Because I do a lot of– I never take picture myself. Very rarely. There are all photographer of the event or some friends or taking picture of my scene. And, when I see them, I say, Oh, wow, this wasn't like it was.
[00:23:29] Wren I love how you're phrasing this, because most people talk about pictures. And I might have done this when I talked about pictures a moment ago, but most people say the picture isn't representative. Most people say negative things towards a picture saying the– [00:23:43]essentially alluding to the photo's lie about what the scene is. It's a snapshot. But I like what you're saying because you're saying that the photo creates magic around the moment and is a hyper idealized version of the moment, [18.6s] which is very cool. And that's what movies are. That's what music is. That's what all these things are. It's it's a highly curated version of something.
[00:24:12] Davide Yeah, is they're lies. Yeah, the highlights of the, of what happened. Because, like, I did a show recently. It was like this very, very small stage. And I really into the scene when I do performance, I really like, focus on model. So I fall down because I didn't see the stage was over. And of course, I laugh. I mean, I didn't fall, I just put my feet down. But I laugh and, and everybody laugh. But you don't see that in the, in the picture or in the, in the video. It's super cool. Everything is super cool. So, yeah, it's like the highlights of the film. Just, I think people just need to, to understand that it's not that it's a bad thing. Just don't take picture for reality. They're part of reality, they are frame of what happend, but it's not the whole story.
[00:25:16] Wren Do you think both are important? Do you think both add to rope in general?
[00:25:24] Davide Yes. It's, I believe is, is, I'm also an hedonist person. I believe is, is, something is beauty is good. And, it's, it's, it's just that is not wrong. Is about how people react to that. If, if I see a picture, extremely beauty with other people, I will say, Oh, wow, it is very beautiful picture. And it will be probably a very intense moment of the scene. Is real, I don't doubt is real or not. But then I, I will figure it out that when they made it or they took it, it was a real moment. Not, not like a goal to make the picture. Let's say the goal was and do the picture. Maybe it's hard to explain, but I think when they take the picture, they're good to catch the beauty of the moment. And the, the reality is more wide. The pleasure and the beauty of the reality is more why. Maybe one picture is good and the session was bad. This also can happen. So, just people, I will tell the people to know that. Know that the picture not always is, is what happens. In my case also, so I'm counting myself in.
[00:27:08] Wren Yeah, I think that's important for everybody to remember. You were saying in the beginning of this that suspension didn't appeal to you.
[00:27:20] Davide I did, I did also say process. I mean, is very natural because of how the the rope world is, is built. It's very natural to believe that suspension is a huge element, and it is. So I also started doing suspension. The thing is, everybody should find his own reason to do it. That's the, the, the challenge. Not doing, doing it is practice. Finding the way is the real challenge. If you, if I ask somebody that is artistic thing and I say, Why you suspend this person? And they said, Oh, I want to take a beautiful picture, and for me is enough because they found their reason. Is not my reason, but if you have a reason, do it. I was struggling to find that reason because aesthetics please me, but not the much (…) and not (…). See somebody struggling in the air is not my thing. So, yeah. So then you... I met this, this guy in the, in the, in the party. Who got, like, beaten up with with a cane. But in a very hard way. I never seen that before or after it like really (…) and open skin. And then I went to him because it was very curious, and say, There's no in the world that you enjoy that. Is impossible. This is kind of a hospital thing. And he said, You're right, I really didn't enjoy it, I enjoy the moment when it's over. And then made sense for me. It was like, Wow, this is quite interesting thing. And then I associate to the, to the drop thing at the theme park. Because I hate that. Every single moment. But I keep going. Every time I go, I keep going. It's stronger than me. And I know I hate, but I keep going. So I said, Oh, wow, so this work in the brain is a mental process to enjoy when it's over. So that was my reason. If you see, when I, when I teach, I tell people my style is called the same journey. Not because they want to be like, so cool that I have my own style, but just for this reason, because it's my answer of my question. So basically, I didn't make my suspension enjoyable for me. I still don't like them. I actually made them more unenjoyable. I designed my suspension in a way that I struggle. I do every time deadlifts. And the thing I do is very, very power consumption for me. That brings me in the same area of the model to struggle in their own way, like pain or position. I'm struggling in my own way. Like, Oh! If you see my my videos doing suspension, I'm like a demon, like making noise, like, "OUAH. HNGH. HUAH." But we are in the same area. So when I pull her down, she's like, Oh, it's over! I'm also like, Oh, (…) is over! And we are in the same area also there. And then I found a way to create connection that I look in the tie, in the suspension because connection was missing before in my suspension. But struggling together and get released together makes me enjoy suspension. So, technically, to enjoy suspension, I made them less enjoyable.
[00:31:35] Wren That's amazing. I think a lot of people feel that, where they want to feel pushed, they want to feel exerted, and they want to feel accomplished, like they did the thing. And it's hard to get that as a top. As a bottom, it sucks to be in rope. And even before a lot people go in the rope, they're like, Why am I doing this? It's going to hurt. But then you get out and it feels amazing.
[00:31:59] Davide I turn this process in the top side. Yeah.
[00:32:02] Wren Yeah. And I wonder... I've never heard it from the top's perspective. [00:32:07]You making it physically exhausting on yourself to also feel that with your model. And I bet that leads to really cool communication and and bonding between you two. [12.4s]
[00:32:21] Davide Yeah, so that's my way to make it. I look for connection. That's my way to get connection during suspension. Because was a struggle for me before. Because I was looking at these beautiful shapes and I was like, Why they do this?
[00:32:38] Wren I love the amount of introspection that you have, asking yourself, why am I doing this? That's a really cool– and it's also really vulnerable thing for you to do because you have to answer it.
[00:32:51] Davide Exactly. The, the challenge part is answer question. For every rigger or model I guess, is answering 'why am I doing this?' And that can be every answer. I'm not saying, Oh, you have to find connection. That's the right way. No, is your answer. But find it, not do it just because everybody does or no reason. If you're (…) and you have a very (…) model, it's fine. It's fine. You torture her and you laugh when she's crying, it's completely fine. But it's your reason, or if you do, like, flower decoration is your reason. No, no, no, no problem.
[00:33:37] Wren Let me ask you this. You've figured out your Why over many years of introspection. What are some things that rope tops, riggers, doms can do to figure out they're Whys?
[00:33:55] Davide I dunno. I mean, it wasn't easy for me, I don't want to think what others think.
[00:34:00] Wren I mean, hearing that's good, though. Hearing it's not easy is good.
[00:34:03] Davide I know, I know, it's very introspective. You're right. It's very like... I think it started for, for... Like my discomfort to not understand what I was doing in suspension, because floor is fine for me. I find the connection that I look for. And so I struggle to find, to find a way to make reasonable for me. I think everybody can go through different experience. Maybe for somebody is very, very easy. They know before even starting. They know what they want. They know they liked it. For maybe somebody not, they will never find, they don't know, is I don't feel I'm in the position to suggest people how to do it, because I have no idea.
[00:34:57] Wren I love it. Thank you for being so honest about that. Not making something up and saying you don't feel like you're in a position to say that, because it is a very personal journey.
[00:35:08] Davide Yes, it is. It is.
[00:35:09] Wren We've talked a lot about your journey. We've talked a lot about you in a scene, and I have a great picture of the person you are in rope, and I feel like it doesn't stop when the model is, either comes to the ground or you start to untie. I think that your scene really pushes through the untying parts. What does that look like?
[00:35:33] Davide Exactly. That is, that's very true. For me, the climax is not the the suspension, is the untying part.
[00:35:44] Wren The climax! The climax.
[00:35:46] Davide Yeah. Yeah. Is, because it's the moment where the connect– the highest connection happen. And the moment where people are more vulnerable. And then also, when I, when I do workshop, I explain, like, if I do a very complicated, let's say pattern and I ask somebody that is not into rope like, whoever. The first guy in the street. Can you tie these? He would say, I don't think so. Now, if I ask him, can you untie it? Everybody can. Everybody can untie. There's no skill requested. So that means your brain don't go to the rope. Go to the person, because you don't need any skill. You don't need to think to any knot or pattern. So you can dedicate 100% of the model to the model. So that create the best connection. And so I really enjoy untying. Somebody make fun of me sometimes too. Like, I don't say the name, but, like big names. They say, I'm master of untying. But I'm happy. I'm happy of that definition. I like it because it's true.
[00:37:09] Wren It's the best part. As somebody that gets tied, being in rope and then having someone untie you lovingly is the best part.
[00:37:18] Davide Yeah, I agree, I agree.
[00:37:19] Wren It's why we do it.
[00:37:22] Davide Sometime, again, I try not to judge anybody, but this kind of, this thing probably is stronger than me, I feel to jump into. Something very rarely, thanks God, very rarely, I see, but it happened to see model tying them– untying themselves. After suspension. I see the rigger like untie the hand, and then the model untie herself or himself. And I was like, This, this very, very, very hurting me watching you.
[00:37:57] Wren Yeah. I, yeah. I would never untie myself. I would always let that–
[00:38:03] Davide No, don't do. Enjoy the process.
[00:38:06] Wren I love how in everything you're saying, you're centering the person.
[00:38:11] Davide That is true. Is, is what I do actually is, it's my way to do it. I really like to focus on the person and get their, their pleasure.
[00:38:24] Wren Thank you for being so open about everything. It's clear that your, your work is charged with emotion and you lead with emotion. And thank you for giving us so many tips and tactile things on how we can bring emotion into our own practice.
[00:38:40] Davide Thank you.
[00:38:41] Wren Where, where can people find you if they want to connect with you?
[00:38:47] Davide I decided like, this month to have soon a website because I think after ten years, it's time to have a website.
[00:38:56] Wren It's, it's probably time.
[00:38:58] Davide But I still don't have. So probably better is Instagram. That is laodai.shibari or laodai_shibari . I have two because they banned one and then they gave me back.
[00:39:16] Wren They love to do that.
[00:39:17] Davide So now I end up with two accounts, that double my struggle. And then I will complete there also because I manage as more Twitter and that is, I think laodaishibari without all together.
[00:39:33] Wren Okay. Well those things will be in the show notes below, but thank you so much for being on, and it's probably about 3:00 in the morning now for you? So you need to get to bed.
[00:39:44] Davide 2:00.
[00:39:45] Wren 2:00 in the morning. Well you said you don't sleep very much anyway, so...
[00:39:49] Davide Good. Thank you very much. I really enjoyed I really enjoyed it. I can, I can keep going hours.
