Overqualified or Undervalued: The messy part of a job search

Rejected or Selected: Welcome to Rejected or Selected, a podcast where we talk about job search woes, hiring horrors, and everything fair and unfair in and around our work lives. ⁓ just gotta do the final dad check. Hey boys, dad's recording. Okay. Okay, it's all good. I'm affirmative. I can we can record now. They're ready. They're ready to destroy. They're ready. When they're ready, I'm ready. I don't gotta wait around. ⁓ my god. You might and I apologize. I'll try and e you heard that, didn't you? I'll try and edit this to a lovely audience, but my eleven my ten year old son just got back in from Singapore at 1.30 this morning and ⁓ he's had a good sleep and everything, but it has been it has been very quiet the previous week with only the one son, my thirteen-year-old, well, my almost thirteen-year-old in the house, and now they're back and It was literally two seconds of bliss and hugging and I miss you. And now it's gone back to I wanna kill you. So ⁓ yeah. I'll I'll try and yeah, they'll they'll be fine. They'll be fine for It seems like we're in the what's been happening? What's been happening in your world? Yeah, no, I was just gonna say it seems like we're currently in the ⁓ era of peace because it's quite peaceful in your background right now. But we'll see. We'll see how the session develops. All good. Yeah. Lots happening. I'm in the middle of preparing handover. because I'm finishing up at my current role at the end of the month. This will be it tomorrow, so yes, the end of the month. ⁓ exciting times. ⁓ but yeah, just doing those things. It's crazy. Like I because I built the function Now I'm kind of going through all of the processes and the the things that I've implemented and I've just been doing it myself. So, you know, when I change something, I just go on with it, right? But now I have to make sure that all of my documentation kind of match what's going on and that's been like, ⁓ have you been doing too much, Dini? Who knows? ⁓ go back through everything. No, but I'm going to try and ⁓ make sure that, you know, the handover is clear, the processes are simplified, because I'm pretty sure the next, you know, the next ES will come in and everything can be improved, right? So I don't want to be too prescriptive as well. ⁓ 'cause people have different styles of working and what worked for me might not work for the next person. But as long as I get the main processes and workflows in place and clearly articulated, then she'll be good. She'll be right. That's good. But look, she'll be right, mate. ⁓ she'll be right. That being said though, Deanny, and and as one as much as you want to be you don't want to be too prescriptive when someone new is coming into your role. Yeah. You do I I guess when we are at a place for a a fair while and it doesn't have to be that long. It could be twelve months, twenty four months, could be even a little bit shorter than that. We do want to kind of leave a little bit of a legacy, especially if it's a role that we've kind of owned. We've taken that ownership. We've made it our own. You know. It's it's ⁓ so that being said, you know, I feel like yeah, you you can guide them to do what you do in their own way. Yeah. But there's also Deanny's way, which has worked. It's worked really well. Yes. Might want to follow you with I think so. ⁓ our sales lead did a presentation ⁓ for all hands. ⁓ what day are we? ⁓ yeah, it was yesterday, Wednesday. And I was I was so ⁓ touched because she was doing the sales kind of overview just to kind of share this, you know, this is what happens in the sales world. And it's it was a really good presentation. It clarified like, hey, sales is not just like a beginning thing and so many other teams are involved, you know, everything from the C level to product to ⁓ the services team, you know, the delivery team, everyone's involved at some point or other. But she really like put me up there, like she just everything's like so. Thank God, Daniel's here, blah, blah, blah. And I'm just like, yeah, I'm gonna miss this job. I think they g they're really gonna miss you, then you they really gonna miss you as well. I think so. I work with a really great group of people. Like it's really important, isn't it? The people that you work with, because it can make or break your experience. Even if you love what you're doing, it could just become something that you don't want to do or go back to if you're working with people who are just Yeah, not supportive and not collaborative and I don't know. A hundred percent. And I think that's doubly for you because even more so for you, because you're you're kind of remote from the the entire team. You're in Bali. The rest of the teams here are scattered around Australia. So everyone's remote. Everyone's remote. At Retrospect Labs. Everyone just works remotely. So even though everyone was in Australi I mean, everyone is in Australia, we're all dispersed. ⁓ So there's challenges with that, right? You you don't get that ⁓ you know, the office insights that you get if you're at the office. And you don't get to really build those relationships. But thankfully a lot of the people that I work with, they're just, you know, whenever you chat with them online, ⁓ we do actually take the time to build those relationships and kind of get to know each other and yeah. But it is it comes with its challenges as well. You I feel like if you don't make the effort, then you you will definitely feel isolated and really out of touch with everything. So yeah. That's it. I mean you I think you've hit the nail on Yeah. ⁓ look, I I like I mean I'm I'm quite lucky in in that respect. I've got the office three days a week. I've got, you know, working out of my apartment two days a week. Which is we works well for me. ⁓ but I like my office team, but I also like my national team that I work with. And just today actually, ⁓ got to have a chat. I was on a call with the the South Australia team for the first time. And got to meet faces who I'd only actually ever emailed or ever spoken to on the phone. Yeah. I'm like, ⁓ my God, that's you. You look like that. You're you're not what I imagined, but it's cool. You're not in a bad way though, you know. Yeah, you gotta be careful when you I didn't say that in those words, but you gotta be can you say that because it can be taken on odds. Yeah, digging a hole. There's that time and trying to be friendly. Yeah, exactly. You you're trying to be amicable. And you know, just make this joke and it made it You're not what I expected. It's like was what did you expect? What's that supposed to mean? What was your what was your assumption of my physical appearance? It's like when you when you put me up for the job and they thought I was a man, not a woman. How awkward was that? Core memories, Simon. Core memories. ⁓ Core memories. You're a woman, not a man. ⁓ Why why did you think I was a man? Well, because of my experience or man. Yeah. ⁓ We haven't had a Milan reference for a while. I know. I missed that too. But ⁓ look, I mean the office is the office and it is the the people who make or break a role. and you know, I like where I work now and it's it's Because I like my job, but more so I really like the people I work with. You know, they know how to have a joke and they know how to not take everything so goddamn fucking seriously. Seriously. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's that's that's my sweet spot anyway. You know what they say? There's a time and place for everything. There is. There is. Yeah. I've never been told that a lot in in primary school. Anyway. Simon is a time and place for everything, isn't there? Really? Because I'm having fun. You guys aren't. anyway. Okay, so let's get on on track because we're kind of that conversation kind of went into that territory that we're gonna, I guess, cover tonight. And it's something that I don't think gets discussed often. But Denny, I want why don't you take us through it? Because this was your idea ⁓ in terms of what we're gonna talk about tonight. And I think it's it's a bloody brilliant idea. And I think you've lived it specially way more than I have. So ⁓ yeah. What's that supposed to mean? I'll talk about it. No, I was just talking I was just talking to Simon about ⁓ you know when I was job searching ⁓ what that was two years ago, wasn't it Simon? 'Cause now it's been like a little bit over two years that I've Being with reference. A years ago. A couple of years ago. But I was going through my LinkedIn messages and I found this message. So when I first moved back from France to Australia, I'd ha I've just had a baby, right? So I've been out of the workforce for longer than I would like, ⁓ would have liked. And ⁓ at the time I was doing my masters in cybersecurity. ⁓ so I was wanting to go back. to the workforce because, you know, we moved back to Australia, we need the money. But also I wanted to get back into working, you know, sometime for me, me only. ⁓ so I applied to a range of jobs and because I was coming from my last experience was in startups, ⁓ I was the VP strategy for like this ⁓ financial services ⁓ company. And prior to that I had some commercial ⁓ experience, right, in another startup. So I figured, ⁓ you know, maybe I'll look at roles that are somewhat related to that. and I was looking at cyber roles as well at at the same time. So there was this job that I applied to and it turns out that one of the girls I knew in Melbourne actually knew the hiring manager. really well or they've worked together before or you know, so she's like, ⁓ you know, I'll just reach out to them and, you know, see how the process is going. Just mention that you're my friend and wanted to know, you know, if you had a basically just for some feedback 'cause I hadn't received anything from them. And I'm like, ⁓ yeah, that would be great. So the hiring manager reached out to me ⁓ on LinkedIn. And this was May thirteenth, twenty twenty-two. And I think what did I what did I apply for? I can't even remember what I applied for, but I think it was customer success. The irony. Look, full circle, now I'm customer success. So I'll just read out this feedback. It was very nice. Like I'm not I'm not, you know, revisiting this. I what I want to talk about is the whole being overqualified thing, right? So My context is I'm just re back re entering the workforce. So obviously I wasn't aiming so high, but I was applying to jobs that I think like, ooh, I can do this job and I think I would enjoy it. And I haven't been in customer success before, so I didn't feel like, well, I'm not senior. So I will just apply to maybe it was just a customer success major role, you know? ⁓ so he says, Hi Deanny. Blah messaged me about your application at Blah. I have a good relationship with her. ⁓ as we work together and out of respect for that, I wanted to give you feedback on why we didn't progress your application. ⁓ okay, so I didn't get the job. I felt your experience was very impressive, but too senior for this role. You've managed people and been in head off roles, while this role is about four levels below a head off role. I didn't realize it was That much lower, but anyway. You also didn't have enough role-relevant experience, like others who have studied psychology or managed a portfolio of customers or been more hands-on in a SaaS role. That last bit I wanted to argue, but that's okay. A big so this is what's interesting. ⁓ besides the fact that ⁓ I was basically working in higher level roles and therefore maybe over overqualified. ⁓ another thing that he pointed out, which was quite interesting, a big risk for us in hiring ⁓ someone who is not at the right level for the role, is that that person will be leaving in twelve to eighteen months because maybe they're bored or whatever. Which is really disruptive on the customers at is ⁓ as it takes six to twelve months to get a good handle of the role and the relationships, right? So that makes sense. Like so from that feedback, I kind of got the sense that, okay, this company actually wants their people to stay for a long time. It's not like a, you know, we'll use you as long as we need you and then see you later, kind of thing. ⁓ and then they closed with I appreciate this is disappointing feedback to get, but I want to encourage you to keep trying to break into the SaaS industry and customer success as it's really Fun work, which I can attest to now it is. It's very fun. ⁓ Bla mentioned you're doing a master's in cybersecurity and what would be perfect for you would be getting a customer success job for a cybersecurity company. They pay really well and are desperate for talent and your background in the defense would excite them, that should be amplified in your C V. If you contact recruiters or just research the top ten cybersecurity firms hundred percent chance there will be roles in Melbourne. I was in Melbourne at the time. Hope this helps. Happy to answer any questions. Best blah. I think that was really, really nice. And you know what? I was lucky because obviously I knew this girl and he she knew him. And so he felt like, ⁓ I should give her this feedback. But ⁓ what do you think? What do you think of all that? First and foremost it just reinforces it's who you know because no one else would have gotten that feedback back from that. No. No. I I'm impressed. N A, I'm impressed because they were quite comprehensive in their feedback and very much taking on ⁓ as an advisory role. Yeah. You weren't even you weren't even paying them retainers. Like, hey, this is what you should be doing and based in your experience It was it was good and it reads very matter of fact. It was and it's very factual. Yeah. ⁓ you you were in defense and that would ⁓ sorry, excite that that word got me a bit. Excite the team. I could just imagine these these people in this big room and they see this your C V ⁓ my god, it's Danish is in defense Like I could anyway. It brings me back to ⁓ Mark Pierce's episode about passion. I have a passion for wellness. You know, like we're excited, you're in defense. You know, big pep, stop. You're gonna have a heart attack and die on us again. That's a bad joke. too soon, R I P. so far out. Gonna get cancelled. ⁓ before we even begin, really. Anyway, going back to what I was saying. So A, I I really, I really like that. ⁓ B just the fact that I and again It is who you know, but they had that respect for the person that you knew that already had the role there and enough to take the time out of their day. So it also that to me shows something about the culture of the place. Because I feel as well if you were to not have a very nice culture and it was quite toxic, ⁓ then you probably wouldn't have that much, you know, that that kind of communication going back and forth between people. People taking time out to actually do something they wouldn't normally otherwise do for the general public. Yeah, not even for someone from work. Yeah. Yeah. Like it. What about what about the whole overqualified thing? What's your take on it? And you've been a recruiter before. So don't you say you've never ⁓ thought this about any T V that's come across your desk? I will call bullshit. I That's fine. I'm y I'm more than happy for you to call bullshit and no, no, no. I I definitely am not arguing that I've never seen an overqualified resume come across my desk in the past. I'm never I'm not gonna say I've never had coffee and met a candidate who was overqualified. And look, back when I was recruiting, I because a candidate's a candidate, you might not have a role for them then, but you may have a role for them later. And if they're overqualified, then that makes them a key candidate. They might be well look well sought after by a lot of other agencies and also ⁓ potential companies that want to hire them. So, you know, a catch up is a catch up with a candidate. It doesn't matter if they're a fresh grad still studying or they've had twenty plus years experience. It doesn't matter. ⁓ that was my philosophy as a recruiter. The the overqualified bit though, it just depends. I never ever I'm gonna say this. This is the honest to God truth. I can hand my heart say I never ever had an overqualified cybersecurity candidate come across my desk. And the reason being, and I'm gonna I'll just say this, and people know that. I essentially did not have a lot of qualified roles when I was a recruiter. And look, I I'll wear that badge. I will say I was a failed recruiter, I didn't do very well. I lasted nine months in the job, but I can say I gave it my best, but didn't have enough of those qualified roles to really get enough candidates across my desk that would be underqualified, overqualified, or just the right fit for that particular particular role. Yeah. So you know, I'll wear that badge that and I'll own it, that I I did, you know, I tried my absolute best as a recruiter, but I failed as a recruiter. And I learnt a lot as a recruiter from that failure. I learned enough to know I'll probably never ever go into recruitment again. but you know, and I'm not gonna make excuses, but the cybersecurity market at the time and it still is, it's very, very stale. so now I've talked about the candidates I've had. Okay, so no overqualified cybersecurity candidates, no underqualified, no no fit no right fits, you know, mama bear, papa bear, baby bear, none of them. Right. however, as a candidate myself, yeah. I'd I've never experienced the overqualified response. And that's because I've never specialized in anything really. So when you look at my career T and and this is something I was thinking about just last week when I was looking at what I'd done in my career so far. ⁓ public relations for a little while, didn't want didn't like it, went back to uni today, diploma of education, taught for thirteen years. And yes, while teaching for thirteen years is, I guess, by today's standards substantial. It's still not enough to really make you an expert. academic, you know everything about education, you know. and in terms of media studies, yeah, I probably had a specialization in that. A hundred percent. I loved it. But I haven't taught that for so long that it's no longer even something that I would, you know, consider highlighting on my C V. Mm. and the other thing, the other thing as well, teaching for 13 years, security awareness training for one year. Yeah. Innovation, development, start up kind of space for about what, two years at Cyber West. And then a whole bunch of government jobs and managed service roles and then Accenture. And now the RTO space is an area that I'm definitely, definitely really trying to learn a lot more about. Yeah. get my head around the regulatory bodies like ASCAR and the way RTO curriculums work and vet training works. I'm a generalist. I'm a generalist. So I've never had to overqualify because there's no deep specialization in my C V. Whereas you would certainly have had well you've been in of a number of leadership roles too. So you definitely also have that overqualification kind of dilemma. That paradox, I guess. It's kinda like shooting myself in the foot sometimes. Sometimes. Okay, so moving away from the overqualified ⁓ topic, right? But very, very related. So you mentioned you're a generalist and then I also have ⁓ diverse experience, right? Here's another here's another ⁓ experience or or event, mini event that happened while I was searching for jobs and this happened ⁓ later in my career, so like around now. ⁓ very, very interestingly, ⁓ I applied for a head of ⁓ information security role at A an organization. ⁓ and organization and who may not be named because because two things this recruiter did for me, no, two things this recruiter did that was amazing in my mind anyway. And I've never experienced that before. So one thing, ⁓ he called me back. He like literally called me on the phone. And said and said, ⁓ basically asked me what my plans were and if I was, you know, really interested in ⁓ doing the role. ⁓ he made a comment about like he saw my LinkedIn profile, ⁓ more about that later. But he saw that, you know, I was quite a a personable person, open, you know, more f more suited for like modern tech. Driven companies that are agile and stuff. And he said, Look, this place that you're applying to is quite a rigid, highly regulated environment. ⁓ and then he said, you know, you could be you could be good at the role, but you might hate the place that you work in. Basically he warned me that the place was toxic and that I should run the other way. Wow honesty. Which is like I've never had and this is a recruiter, mind you. It's not like a internal talent acquisition which I feel like ⁓ that's Sorry. Yeah. Just let's backtrack. Was this recruiter recruiting specifically for that role? Recruiting for that role. And he warned you off it because his client has a toxic workplace. He warned me off it because maybe he's been hiring for that role. He did make a mention that like the current hire that is leaving was actually someone that he put in place. Okay. So I don't think he's telling that to all the guys, but he really wants it to be the right fit and the right kind of person so that this doesn't happen again. No, I mean maybe not toxic, maybe more like a he said you need to be willing to ⁓ play a little political game while you're in that position because they're going through a massive transformation, challenging. And actually I did ⁓ see some red flags in the book. Because I saw this job because it was posted by someone in my network. And that person was leaving the job. And I did see some red flags in that post that they did. Basically the words like, Yeah, ⁓ transformation, learnt a lot. A challenging environment, literally challenging environments, but you can't you don't learn much if you're not in a challenging environment and I'm taking the lessons that I've learned and also I kinda had a feeling. Yeah. I kinda That's not even reading between the lines. No. That's not even reading between the lines. That's like the the writer just kind of slapping you in the face and go, This is what it is. Yeah, so I I I really I said look, you know, thank you for being honest because, you know, that would have been a waste of everyone's time and I really appreciated that because he didn't have to do that. He could have just like, Here's some candidates and hope for the best for whoever sticks. But ⁓ obviously this person really cares about their job. If they they seem to have a really good profile as a recruiter. ⁓ Yeah. What a good recruiter. Honestly, what what integrity. Absolutely, right? Very refresh to I respect. Very refreshing. The second thing he did, which was like, Wow, I've not had feedback like this from anyone. ⁓ and this person obviously is not trying to get me to, you know, work for the job that they're advertising. So that he didn't he really didn't need to do this. But ⁓ he said, Yeah, I was looking at your LinkedIn profile and you know, it's a bit all over the basically he said, I'm paraphrasing here because the way he speaks is not the way I speak, but I'm parap paraphrasing. It's a bit all over the shop. It's like, you know, you've got your podcast and then you've got your ⁓ your cyber experience, which is amazing, but then you have all these speaker ⁓ experiences that goes in between your you know, your work experience and then you have the pin tech, like the fintech stuff and the you know, and he said if you want to apply for jobs like SISO or head of information security or whatnot, unfortunately, hiring managers, they tend to just want someone who's like focused on that. Basically what he not I wouldn't say one I said one dimensional in my head. But he's saying like they want to see that this person is just dedicated to that and all of their experience is related to that job. Which I can't help but think in my mind, like if you want to be in a leadership position, wouldn't you want a well rounded person ⁓ that could understand, you know, the connection between what the business wants and the security requirements and controls and, you know, processes so that there's a balance because You don't wanna implement security and then no one can do business. Like it's just not realistic that way. And there's always risks that you need to kind of think through. You know, it's like, ⁓ we're in the AI era. Well, let's just not use AI and then your staff will just be using bloody chat GPP or Gronk if you're not lucky. ⁓ so you know, there's always that Yeah. You need to be able to think outside that technical space, right? ⁓ But what I then realized Like he was referring really to my LinkedIn. And there's merit to what he was saying because, you know, whether we like it or not, hiring managers or recruiters, ⁓ AI tools that recruiters use now, they really just look at what's on your profile. So if it's not, you know, really aimed at that role that you want. it's just not gonna rate you as, okay, this is a good candidate. Like all of the words need to kind of fit match specific things. the problem is when you're a generalist like yourself, Simon, or someone with diverse experience like myself, Like f personally I find it quite disheartening that I have to cull my experience or like just hide it away and it's like it never happens. And for me it was a bit difficult. I did actually take on board a lot of his advice and I did actually make my profile a bit more cyber focused. But it's like you're hiding a part of you that is, you know, some things I did I was very proud of. You know, obviously I wouldn't put it up there, but yeah, it and then it made me think about, okay, so you really need to be clear about the type of role that you're after. And thinking about it, I I've always known I don't want to be a sizeo. That's not the path for me. ⁓ head off probably still okay, but I I don't want to have to ignore certain things or ⁓ be put in a a box where that is just what you do, you know? And I really enjoy my role right now. It's like you know, just a little bit more. I I just really enjoy my role right now where it is at the intersection of cyber and like customer. It's just perfect for me. So so yeah it's yeah but the problem is but the question Yep go on No, the problem is there's not that many roles where that is consciously sought after, right? I've seen a couple, like, ⁓ you need cybersecurity experience, but also that customer success, kind of being able to, you know, engage with the cu the customer and really make sure that they know how to use certain tooling or how to say, plan their exercises if you're in incident response y really being part of that I hate to use this word journey. with that customer. ⁓ I think slowly I'm starting to see there are roles like that, but I think ⁓ generally cyber security companies, they're very focused on, okay, ⁓ we're in the client and then we deliver using our product or whatever. But then they're not really putting too much kind of thought into how do we keep this customer, how do we make sure they know how to use the tools properly? How did they then achieve success or their objectives? you know, and stay with us ⁓ for a longer time than just ⁓ whatever a year and then go and find someone else. But yeah, so that's anyway. In rant. No, not a rant. No, very relevant and and absolutely on point. I I guess there's th there's a paradox, isn't it? Like, especially with LinkedIn, I'll use LinkedIn as an example. Because it's great to be able to not have a wear one label and not be boxed as you said. But does the market punish us for that? That for that reason. Having too much of a diverse, I guess, ⁓ listing of experience and things that you post about and your interests that you you often share. Yeah. I I feel that the market does punish us because again, like we go back to ATS and recruitment systems and they they choose specific words. Your LinkedIn profile is basically acting the same way when someone goes on your profile and sees about five different topics of discussion in your content me, absolutely guilty of that. But things that I'm passionate about, well, Mark's gonna hit Mark Pierce will hit me on the head for saying that. But things that I am genuinely passionate about and wanna share and have opinions about all yeah. Once you get in a have a discussion with someone online about. I I feel like the any recruiter that would go past my profile, any hiring manager would go past it and go, it's like, where is this guy? He's all over the shop. What is this guy about actually? Yeah. So but for me, that's me. I don't care. I'll I'll give you a a story about one of our past ⁓ guest, ⁓ Shil Shanghabe. So I've known Shil for a number of years and ⁓ I the first time I caught up with him after high school was in twenty twenty. So it was quite a while. It'd been a little bit twenty one years, right? Since we actually no, I've caught up with him a few times since high school, but not properly, you know? Yeah, yeah. So we had a coffee and we we caught up and he was asking me about what I do in cybersecurity and I was trying very hard to explain what the Cyber West Hub actually does. Which was very hard a whole another a whole mission on its own anyway. ⁓ but I was asking him about what he does and you know how he got into public speaking and all we all know he's an a deep expert on public speaking. That's his round. That's his label, that's kind of his pocket, right? But Shield did say to me that he believes people should become a master of one rather than, you know, an apprentice in everything. Many things, yeah. And for me, that it didn't rub me the wrong way, but it kind of I went, that's not my philosophy, dude. Not in I just said to him, I respectfully disagree with you, and we just had my Yeah, no, it's not for everyone. Left it at that, and that's fine. But it's not for everyone. I I never wanted to ever see myself as I'm I'm gonna be really good at one thing and focus on that. My entire career. I can't do that. My my ADHD mind is like, yeah, this is really cool. And this is also really cool. So I like to I don't want to say dip my toes, but I definitely want to have a splash around in some different pools, if that makes any sense, rather than go for a big dive into one. Because that's it's not me. That's not me. Yeah, yeah. It's not the way I'm That's why my LinkedIn profile is a bit sweaty. It's how my brain works. Yeah, yeah. We value different experiences. I'm not saying that. Yeah. Look, I'm not saying that translates into my career that I want to hop from one job to another. Absolutely. No way. That's not how it translates. It really is more about me having a curious mind for so many different things. Mm. That's Yes, we can well, that's what we're capable of, right? Like just, okay, for example, in my career I've never had a plan. I've never kind of thought, ⁓ by this age I'm gonna be at this level and like I know so many people who that's just logical. You would have this kind of however many step plan and then in the end you'll be like S E S or like a Prime Minister or something, you know? That's never been my thing. ⁓ but it's brought me to where I am now, which is quite I'm quite happy with how my career has gone. And how I've proven to myself time and time again that I could adapt to so many different types of roles. It's like, wow, okay, that is my power. That is my my skill actually. ⁓ to just get dropped into something, give me enough rope and I could build a whole function for you. And I've done that twice in the past few years already. So, you know, not to say, like obviously there is value in getting deep into something and mastering something. Unlike you, Simon, I actually I wouldn't mind doing that. I wouldn't mind doing that. It's just life just has not allowed me to do it, right? Like if I had the luxury to just focus on something and just, you know, but sometimes there's like what we want and what life gives you is not always the same thing. And so I've just navigated around that. And that's what brought me to where I am now. So yeah, it was like you, I felt a bit disheartened. While the recruiter was saying to me, ⁓ yeah, you know, all of this stuff, you should just get rid of it, blah, blah, blah. Like all the speaking stuff, it's just reducing your credibility in that space, in the cyber space, cybersecurity space. And I was feeling like, well, hang on. If an employer or a recruiter sees my profile and thinks that all of the stuff that I've put on there is quite impressive, I must say. ⁓ enough. Impressive enough, right? So it's not like random, ⁓ I've been in this for one year and then I've just gone off. I've had tangible outcomes from all of the roles that I've been in. There has been one role where I'm not very proud of myself, but that was a difficult period in my life and I've come to accept it. And the CEO even said, no, you were capable of more than that, but you were just dealing with a lot of shit at that time. So I still kind of apologize because he's also a friend. I still apologize. ⁓ man, I'm so sorry that time I couldn't he's like, don't worry about it. Like I know what's going on, just don't doubt yourself. You're amazing, blah, blah, blah. But yeah, I like if if a hiring manager goes through my profile and cannot see all of the achievements that I've listed and still thinks, what's this girl about? Well, then maybe that's not the job for me, right? So True. That's a really good point. But anyway, I still took on his advice and I kind of polished up my LinkedIn a little bit, but I'm kinda sad that I I might put in the customer success facts ⁓ stuff a little bit more into my about me because I I actually enjoy that that aspect of the job. I love working with the customers and even though I was worried that I would lose, you know, ⁓ customer success, nothing about cyber. But I mean a cyber security company. I needed to know my my stuff, my cyber stuff. Because customers, they ask me about, ⁓ how should I do this? How could I use this tool to meet all of these requirements? Like what are my requirements actually? How do I build a scenario? And you need to know all of that. And if I didn't have the cyber side, then I wouldn't be able to, you know, to to service them properly and I wouldn't have these relationships where they trust me and what I say, right? ⁓ Absolutely. Yeah. And also just a little quick I find myself saying cyber a lot instead of cyber security and I bloody bloody LinkedIn man. People post things that are just it's not even important. But there was this ⁓ person who posted something about paraphrasing again, I can't remember word for word. ⁓ you know, I just wanna know why the people who say cyber instead of cybersecurity, ⁓ or you know, like doesn't that give people the ick 'cause it does me like shit They get the ick when people say cyber instead of cyber security. Anyway, it just reminded me of that post. You know what I'm talking about. This okay, for that person, if you're listening to this, you know who you are. Go outside, take off your shoes, and go and touch grass. Do it now. Anyway. Personally, I'd like to apologize to anyone who is getting the ick from me saying cyber instead of cybersecurity, but you know, who has the time, you know what I'm talking about. I get it. I was in a I was in a meeting years ago. I was in this meeting years ago, and ⁓ a well-known academic from a university here in WA that's very big on cybersecurity made it a point at the beginning of the meeting to remind everybody that cyber refers to The world of computing, not just cyber security. You call it cybersecurity. Since then, I have been the the prick that I am, I have very intentionally said cyber for that reason. So such a shipsterer. ⁓ that's so funny. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, I am. I am sure. ⁓ sorry. Can the kids jobs? ⁓ I should stop you. You're such a troublemaker. Troublemaker. Yeah. That's it. Rat you rat bag. You dirty bag. You rat bag. daughter, you're rat. Speaking of rat bag, must my ten year old is all all right. Look, before we before we do move on, Deanny, for any of our listeners out there today who may be falling into that overqualified trap or may have perceived recently or in the past. Feedback that they are overqualified, what what can they do? Apply for jobs that align towards ⁓ I don't know. If they're applying so from okay, the lessons or the feedback that I got from ⁓ the talent acquisition, the hiring manager, the first one, overqualified. ⁓ a couple of things that they've said from memory. if you're applying for something that you're If you're applying for a role that you don't really have much relevance, relevant experience in, and that's why you're applying at a lower level, but you've actually had roles at a higher level. ⁓ what he said, what they said ⁓ about, you know, stay in your industry and find a role that kind of crosses from that industry and And the new role that you say, for example, I was applying for customer success, but it was customer s success in a completely different industry. Like if I had spoken to a recruiter, a cyber recruiter who's looking a cybersecurity recruiter who's looking for a customer success person, then, you know, I would be a candidate that would make sense because I have that cybersecurity experience. So I guess if you're aiming for if you know for a fact that you are you've been through you've done positions at levels that are higher than The position that you're applying for. You know what? The first step is to ask why. Why are you doing that? Hmm. Why are you doing that? So I was doing it because I'm I was half desperate for a job. Half desperate for a job. But also But I kind of feel like, well, I've got no experience in that particular industry or that specific role. So of course I'm gonna, you know. try and get that experience. Like I was ready to kind of s restart. ⁓ but sometimes, you know, ultimately, if you don't get a job, ⁓ then it's just not for you. That's what I've learned nowadays. I think it's more like you always should apply to s to a job that you feel like, yeah, I could definitely do this or I'm definitely really interested in it and I've looked into it. And I feel like, you know, I want to pivot into this new industry. And I have the things that I've done that I could show the hiring manager or whoever that I'm actually interested in it. So it's not just a temporary thing for me, you know? Understanding what you want out of the job is really important, I feel. Especially at our level. But it's not to just one second, Denny. I have to make sure that my ten year old isn't he's on the Nintendo. ⁓ just make sure it's not giving them these rude names. I was not. It's okay, no worries. I can't see that far. If anyone could read that, like kudos to them. But true. Good point. Good point. Anyway, anyway, all good. ⁓ Deanny, we haven't done this in a while, but I I love the format. I love the idea. We've got to keep doing it. This or that. ⁓ yes. Yes. So why don't you hit me with the first four we got and I'll hit you with the last four. Alright, I need to look on my phone because ⁓ didn't didn't I didn't I didn't put it on the laptop. Where is it? This or that. Simon, are you ready? Yes, I'm ready to go. Ready, always ready. ⁓ huh. Overqualified rejection immediately? Or ghosted after three interviews? Oof. ⁓ the rejection immediately. Like just hearing back. Move on. Move on. Okay. A tight C V that beats ATS or an honest C V that sometimes get read gets read by a human. be in the ATS. Come on. Yeah. It's you you apply to get the job. Yeah. You know, beat the ATS, you don't get the job. And also they're not mutually exclusive. You can have a tight C V that is honest. That's my C V. My C V is honest. But still tight. C V should be honest anyway. All right. Okay. Brutal specific feedback or a recruiter who ghosts you politely. Whoa, brutal feedback. You need it. You need it. You need to be cruel to be kind. Yes. So I really appreciate it. Recruiters out there. If you see someone who's, you know, mm even they're not the right fit, like just give them the time of day, please. Because they might say this recruiters out there, you can quote this. Be a dick to someone's face rather than behind their back. So just tell ⁓ how it is. There you go, done. Although if you're giving them like Honest feedback, you're not being a dick. If they take it that way, then that's on them. Right? You'll h try to help. Okay. Yeah. True. Be the head of seen as a s as a flight risk or the entry level higher who's underestimated. Now I'm gonna go with that last one because I like to be that kind of black horse that that dark hor dark horse, sorry, who's like that no one expected him to do this and he just smashed. 'Cause you're always going to be over beyond expectations, right? Once in my life. Yes. Yes, okay. All right. Your turn. Your turn. Here we go. Yes. All right, let's make this quick. Pick one label and own it versus stay unlabeled and let people figure you out instead. pick many labels and own it. Like it wasn't an option, but I No, no, it's not an option. It's hard. Pick wow, I really don't want to be labeled. But I don't want people to just like, yeah. I don't know. I failed. Already failed. Sorry, Simon. I can't that's okay. Alright. I'll pick the second one. I pick the second one. We learn from failure. Alright. Pick the second one. Technical depth? Technical depth in a narrow lane or broad range in a vague title. Technical debt in a narrow lane. Yeah, good, no Alas of A title. Full time role with a rigid political culture or ⁓ fractional work, income uncertainty. ⁓ in an ideal world, second. Fraction of work, income uncertainty. In an ideal world. ⁓ Where money is not. In an ideal world? In the current world? In the current world, I will need a job with ⁓ stability. So I guess it's a last one. A clear a clear linked in that omits half your story. Or True to everything in profile that confuses people. Option A, because I did fix my profile. Sorry. I sold my soul. Good. I'm glad you did. That's fantastic. That's fantastic. Deanie, as always, it has been such a pleasure being able to discuss this with you. If you have an overqualified story, if you've ever been overqualified, if you've been hiring. And the candidates have been overqualified. We want to hear your story. Please hit us up on LinkedIn at Rejected Or Selected. Rejected Or Selected at gmail.com or our Insta Rejected All Selected, of course. And our YouTube channel. Hit up the comments. Like and subscribe. We will see. Well, you will hear us again in a couple of weeks' time with a brand new episode of Rejected All Selected. Dee, I hope you have a fantastic week. Revel in the fact that you are. Overqualified. Yes. But also revel in the fact that you've cleaned your LinkedIn up, which is great. So well done. So I feel defeated. But yes, thank you. And also not that they will be listening, but I think you will know who you are. Thank you so much for your feedback. Really appreciate it. ⁓ yeah, it was amazing, amazing, amazing recruiters. Yeah. Until then. Bye. Chao chao.